Let’s talk about Sex (and the City)

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are you a Charlotte? Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody, welcome back to Are You a Charlotte? We have such a thrilling guest today. I have been trying to get her on for quite some time. I'm a very big fan. Is doctor Orna Geralnik. She is incredible. You may know her from Couple's Therapy, which is on Paramount Plus Now. It's a great, great show where she is actually a therapist to actual, real people. She is a true psychologist and psychoanalyst practicing in New York City. She's on the faculty at NYU. Her academic instruction examines intergenerational trauma, the intersection of socio political ideology, and psychoanalysis, disassociation and depersonalization. Doesn't that sound am amazing? She's really, really smart and I am so excited because I have her on today to talk about one of the really intense episodes where Carrie is cheating with Big behind Aiden's back, It's all or Nothing. This episode aired August thirteenth, in the year two thousand, is directed by Charles McDougall and written by the incredible Jenny Bicks. So we're going to break it down. We're going to talk about some bigger kind of cultural psychoanalysis type therapy things, and then also I'm going to break down the episode a little bit later on my own. So please enjoy. I hope you love it. She's so great. Thank you so so much for joining me. I am the biggest fan. A mutual friend told me to watch Couple's Therapy and I said, oh, I'm really worried about watching it because I'm not in a relationship and I'm worried that it will never make me want to get into one. And it was totally opposite. It's so beautiful, the people coming to you and really doing the work.

00:02:08
Speaker 2: I know, it's I have to say, like being you know, I'm writing a book now about couples, and I'm kind of scanning the history of my work with couples over the years, and it has made me believe more and more in humanity.

00:02:25
Speaker 1: Oh that's so nice. We need that right now.

00:02:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely do.

00:02:29
Speaker 1: We definitely do. And it's just so great because also you have such a great variety of people human beings and what they're going through, and it really reminds you of how we're connected and similar, even though we might not realize that all the time. You know, everyone's right, there's like struggling with the same things. And part of the reason that I want to do I know this is not your normal podcast that you would come on to, so I really really appreciate it. But part of what I love is that you do talk about and kind of connect culture in terms of relationships. And I mean, for me, I feel like you have insight into how we're talking about things, and for me, for our show for Sex and the City, especially when it started, which was nineteen ninety eight, well quite a long time ago. You know, we really wanted to at the time create a new way of talking about relationships that was female centered, you know, female empowering, talking about things that people weren't talking about. Now, it's funny to me that in twenty twenty five, this is still kind of a relevant thing, and I would love your perspective on it and your perspective on how culture relates to our expectations in relationships because people have a lot to say. You know, people have a lot of projection onto shows and characters, and you know, they have a lot of deep feelings, like Oh, Carrie's a narcissist. You know, everyone likes to call everyone a narcissist. Now it's a very fascinating thing. But like, what is your perspective on all of this, how do they connect?

00:04:04
Speaker 2: Well, really big questions. Sorry, I mean to just like gory.

00:04:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, Well I.

00:04:11
Speaker 2: Must start by saying that I loved Sex and the City at the time.

00:04:16
Speaker 1: Thank you.

00:04:16
Speaker 2: And my daughter, who's twenty five is she told me that she knows episode episode by episode by heart.

00:04:25
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you, Oh tell her, thank you so much.

00:04:29
Speaker 2: Transferred along the generations level. Yeah, so look, I think you know, Freud already talked about how mm hmm our connection, our our sexual connection to other people is not like a private event. It's always sort of it lives in the context of like the social right, where we have our desires and then we have society to contend with. So we're always to some degree kind of mediating between like all sorts of impulses and the culture that we live in, right, and it's there's always some interesting tension there. So in that sense, I find that couples are kind of like a perfect arena, like the in which like the or relationships are the perfect arena between like what are our impulses individuals and what are the messages we're getting from the culture at large about how to be a human? And I do think like your show is very much about that sort of how do you navigate individuality and where does it live within the culture at large? And how much freedom? How many degrees of freedom do we have? And I feel like what Sex and the City has done, is it carved out way more degrees of freedom for women just in terms of like understanding how to think about themselves and how to think about relationships and how to think about sexuality. And I think about friendship super important, absolutely, So I mean we can talk about lots of things in terms of what are those tensions?

00:06:21
Speaker 1: And I know, I mean, I think that's really well put. And I think it's like permission. Sometimes you need something reflecting back to you that you have permission to, you know, be certain ways. Like Samantha is a perfect example kind of a different character than we had previously seen on television, really embracing her singleness, her sexuality, her freedom to choose, you know, not being judged. This particular episode is an interesting one. I had totally forgotten. I really haven't rewatched this until now, you know, which is many many years. I always loved our show, but I'm having so much more appreciation for the writing and you know, all the different elements and the ways that we you know, even each character goes through different moments that you forget, and then you're like, oh, no, here's Samantha. She gets sick, she call goes through her black book, calling her sex partners. No one will come over to help her rehang her curtain, which I, as a single woman, totally relate to. Right, who is going to help you hang your curtain? You got to call a handyman, this is what I've learned. You cannot call a casual you know, date. But this episode is called all or Nothing, which I really love in It aired in two thousand, which is also so crazy to me that it's just so relatable, you know, forever these things. And then when she's sick and she has a fever, Samantha, who we think is being completely free and without judgment and not shackled by these societal expectations of marriage, She's all of a sudden saying, I should I've gotten married? You know, it is really kind of heartbreaking, but then when she gets well, she's like, no, no, I was just having a moment. But it's so freeing. It's like a breath of fresh air, you know, to have that character be so powerful, and so many people still talk to me about that character, and it's kind of amazing that we don't have more characters like her, But I do feel like it has it is more acceptable now to be someone who's saying, I am proudly a Samantha, Yeah, and rightly. So you can choose your own situation and be free. Now, do you feel like if you look at it from your perspective and what you're seeing, Because you're seeing clients all the time who are in it, like living in relationships, trying to define their roles in relationships. And I have friends who are divorced, friends who are still married, younger friends who are looking to get married. And someone was just talking to me yesterday about how he's been divorced he's going to get remarried. And he said, you know, I was in a top sick relationship and I was pulling all the weight and earning the money and she wasn't doing anything. And I said, did you guys talk about this, like, did you ever talk about this, you know, you know when you're and he's a guy obviously, and he said, well, I just thought that she was a partner and she would be a partner. And I said, but you you have to discuss this stuff. You have to negotiate it together, because there's a huge range of expectations. Right, So it's interesting.

00:09:28
Speaker 2: Right, huge range of expectations. How do people imagine relationships work? But also each person has their own perspective, right, this person, this friend of yours, might have thought that he's pulling all the weight in one domain, but not aware at all of some other domain in which she felt like she's pulling all the weight.

00:09:45
Speaker 1: I'm sure, yes, I am sure. I mean, of course, I saw a great clip of you talking about people people wanting to change their partner, and you're saying, you know that there is this kind of unspoken thing that happens in therapy where you go to therapy and you think, like I really want to change that person, and doctor Ornan is gonna help me. Yes, Well that's not really the game, that's not really the thing that you want to do.

00:10:13
Speaker 2: It's not no, And really that's how most therapies start. Most couple's therapies start with like each of them kind of dragging the other one into the office and kind of winking at me. Change them, change them right, And then at some point in the work they realize, Oh, she's not doing that.

00:10:37
Speaker 1: That's my love about you though. You're so you're so you have such great boundaries, so you're so empathetic, but at the same time you have to very calmly say, do you see that you're doing the thing that we've discussed, you know, and that's that's really powerful and so hard to find.

00:10:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:10:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I was in a couple, I would be trying to see you, as would everyone else. But let's say, the biggest thing that I really wanted to hear your perspective on in this particular episode and in the show, and I think in life is the cheating situation. Right, So we're at the part in season three for everyone listening, I know, you know, but it is when Carrie has cheated and not aiden with Big and she's kept it a secret. And I love how our writers and director Charles mcdougil, great director, use the kind of she's she's like, I have the best boyfriend. She starts the show I have the best boyfriend, and then she'll just have these flashbacks of the sex with Big and how you know powerful, isn't that She's like trying to put it out of her mind. I didn't do that. I didn't do that. I didn't tell anyone. No one knows, you know, obviously other than Big. Right, she hasn't told any of the friends. But she's riddled my guilt, you know, which is of course the horrible problem when you have ever cheated is that then you can't really be yourself.

00:11:59
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot to say about that, please go ahead, So much to say about that, but let's just first talk about what you're saying about the guilt. The fact that Carrie is feeling guilty is actually a sign of, if you want to say, psychological health or integration. Because what happens sometimes when people cheat is they can't actually tolerate guilt. They can't really wrestle with the fact that they're cheating might mean something to their actual partner, so they keep it dissociated. Wow, So there are people that cheat and it's as if it's happening on another like on a separate universe. And they in their inner world, they keep it separate, so they don't actually they don't actually deal with what they're doing.

00:12:59
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about that. I'm not one of those people. I have cheated, but I'm not one of those people. So what would make someone be like that? Like what's their makeup or what's happening that they do that?

00:13:16
Speaker 2: We can take a little detour here and talk about like defense mechanisms there. You know, there are all sorts of ways that we hide from ourselves that we don't want to know certain things about ourselves or about reality. Reality can be pretty overwhelming and humiliating and misunderstood, and there are many reasons why we can't deal with everything. So we employ all sorts of different defense mechanisms, and people differ in like the type of defense they tend to gravitate towards and how much it distorts reality. So some people use like you know, what we'd call like really primitive defenses, and they just deny things that are actually right in front of them them, like people could actually people could cheat and deny that it's happening. Wow, really almost deny to themselves. Certainly deny to anyone else. But then there's people who can dissociate. They can just keep their worlds very separate, so they can have like a a semi functional relationship with their partner and they're on the side doing something else that's coming from a different part of their personality that is not integrated. And you know, when these things emerge, or when someone is let's say, caught, or something happens and the two realities meet, they can really have a breakdown because they've in their own mind, they've kept it separate.

00:14:46
Speaker 1: Wow.

00:14:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the fact that Carrie's actually able to feel guilt and she struggles with it is good.

00:14:55
Speaker 1: That makes so much, so much sense. It's good, Yeah, of course. And I think it's of course because I mean you're you're talking about like a really deep seated compartmentalization, right right, and that that that's interesting. I'm sure that I've dated people like this, but I'm not one of them. But but it's interesting to think about. I mean, I I in the one hand, it seems like it would be great, but then there is like in another way, I'm wondering if you're talking about like is it almost like your shadow, like the shadow part of you, like the more in a Jungian world, you're that part is living over here and you're not integrating the two.

00:15:37
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't I don't know if the union idea of shadow would necessarily work here. Okay, yeah, that that won't necessarily work, Okay, okay, But it's I mean when people used dissociation, I mean sometimes it's sort of I mean people, I mean, in extreme cases it has to do with trauma. People associate from traumatic events so that it doesn't take over their life, and then they learn how to split certain experiences from their normal, everyday life. But that that's in the case of trauma. But on a mild and a milder version of it, people compartmentalize. As you say, I mean, this is not everyone. This is a particular line of defense that people use. And then there's the question of like what I mean, this is going back to the union idea, like where is the cheating coming from and how much is it related to the rest of life. Is the cheating kind of an expression of one's shadow of something that is not not coming into play in the main relationship. Is it an attack on the relationship which certain cheating can be. It's it's like a communication to one's partner unconsciously that someone can be resentful angry. Is it like some kind of reenactment of some past experience that I don't know, Maybe they've seen their parents cheat on each other and they're kind of reenacting that story to understand it in some way. I mean, this cheating is like a really complicated thing. It is not to mention that also putting it in a cultural context, and in some relationships certain kind of things are considered cheating, and in other relationships, in a different context, it wouldn't be considered cheating, Right, you're in an open relationship, or if I don't know, you're an old school Mormon, or sure, sure, sure, sure.

00:17:52
Speaker 1: So one thing I think that the fans like to talk a lot about with this Aiden Big situation, which does go on for many years. Right, these two men, they're very different characters. She Carrie has incredible chemistry with both, which is, you know, somewhat because of the actors playing the characters having credible chemistry and are great actors. And there are people who love Aiden and hate Big, and people who hate Big and love Aiden, and blah blah blah, you know, it's fascinating and it goes on and as I'm rewatching, I am reminded of weird things about the times that we were making the show. So late nineties, so mister Big to me and I don't know, were you in New York in the late nineties. Also, yeah, it was a very much a known prototype of man, very much then. Especially. I mean, he was based on a real person who was in the publishing world, very high up in the publishing world. But he also seems kind of like those financial guys, not like a stock market guy, but like the higher up. You know. He's like aloof but also super successful. And I think it was kind of a like a desirable thing for men, any young ladies in New York. Not me personally. I was more into theater dudes, you know, but he was. He was very much known. And when I first went back, like known to us, you know, when I first went back and looked at the beginning of the show, I was shocked by how withholding his is like like he is so covered and she is like chasing and chasing and trying to get him to talk, and it just broke my heart for her. But at the time I also know that those thoughts never crossed my mind. They never entered my mind. Yeah, because I was just so used to it, you know what I mean.

00:19:41
Speaker 2: It's just like the air, the air you.

00:19:42
Speaker 1: Breathe exactly exactly. It didn't I would never have thought those thoughts. Then I was just like, yeah, I love mister Vegan turn and now when people talk about him and then people are there's still some people who are like mister big. Now, of course he does go on for quite a long time, and he developed sen we get to know him better and all of those things. But then the other interesting thing because I was like Aidan as well. Now I know both the actors, so I'm not really objective, but when he comes, I don't know if you remember this part. The very first time they go out, she's smoking, she's smoking a lot, and he says right away, you know, oh no, you know, I can't date a smoker. And she's like, oh okay, I'll just put them away, and she thinks she can just casually not smoke, but then she starts really jonesing, and it's a very kind of wonderful mirror of you know, you meet someone, they're different, you love them, they might not totally get you, but you're drawn to them. You know. He's kind of the anti Big, But she's trying to put a part of herself away so that she can be with him. She's trying to pretend like I could just quit smoking it's fine, but it's not that easy, and it doesn't there's a part of him that doesn't really seem to fully get her. Yeah, and that, to me is also part of why she does end up back with Big, even though he's Withholding. Yeah, but I don't know if that's just me projecting.

00:21:10
Speaker 2: Well interesting, I mean, first of all, I'm interested in like the way we're our idea of what a man is has changed. Yes, Like the first thing you talked about, like the fact that at the time it didn't even occur to you to think of him as withholding. Yep, that there there used to be some in a way, There used to be some way that we as women or as a culture didn't see the full complexity of what a man is. Yeah, and how it sucks to be a man. Yeah, they have to perform to that kind of standard. And like it's interesting.

00:22:00
Speaker 1: Yes, it's like he was trapped in like a box, like a wall.

00:22:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's like it's supposed to be so great to be a mister Big, but oh my god, that I can imagine that being so stressful.

00:22:14
Speaker 1: Yes, I agree to be that. Yeah, I agree fully. Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:19
Speaker 2: And then you're saying there's a in a way, like a mirror image of that of like trying to be the girl that Aiden wants. It's really you'd have to think that. I mean, the optimistic way of thinking about it is that as a society we are making some progress towards like having like a wider range of how we understand who we are as humans and the constraints of gender. I'm just not sure that's actually happening, right.

00:22:51
Speaker 1: It seems like it's trying to happen.

00:22:53
Speaker 2: It's trying to happen, but there's yeah, there's a lot of pushback on that.

00:22:58
Speaker 1: I agree, And I'm just gonna have to bring something because it's just so on my mind. But I don't know if you've seen Heated Rivalry, No, oh my god, doctor, Oh, it's so exciting. You have to watch it. We will not be derailed by my obsession with this show, but it is, in my mind the thing that I love about it is that it is also a relationship show that is moving things forward in the conversation, and people are being drawn to it in a very powerful way because I think they are hungry for progress in terms of men and intimacy and how we can see this playing out in a way that we also relate to and aren't judging like it's so powerful, it's shocking. It's about hockey. Okay, So I didn't watch it for months and now I can not stop talking about it. But it reminds me of when our show came on in terms of, you know, there was this whole negative reaction which we expected very much of, like, you know, women don't talk this way, and you know, how dare they? And I remember this one article. I've mentioned it many times. Sorry listeners, you've heard me, But there's an article in Wall Street Journal a male critic saying, you know, I wouldn't date any of these women except maybe the nice brunette one. Do you mean that was supposed to be like a compliment to me. I'm like, no, no, that guy, like you know what I'm saying. I mean, it was just so intense and we expected it, but the joy came in the wider embrace of women and gay men, basically saying, oh, thank god, you know, someone's opening the door to let some air in some light.

00:24:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very exciting at the time.

00:24:42
Speaker 1: Yeah it was, and it was exciting for us for sure. And back to the expectations part, and we can just bop around and I hope my listeners will come with us. This is how I roll one time. And I think it was right around the third season. This is when the third season is when number one creatively. I feel like everything started to really gel and these long storylines started to pay off. And also, you know, more and more people were able to watch because HBO used to be, you know, very kind of niche. They said to us, we want to put you on the cover of Time magazine, and we're like, oh my god, amazing. So they took a picture and then they put on the title is Who Needs a Husband? And it hangs in my closet still because I really love it. I still really love it, right, I mean like it was kind of revolutionary then. And then if you look at the numbers now in terms of single women, women who are getting divorced and have no interest in getting remarried, women who are self sufficient economically. You know, it's so thrilling the openings that have happened. And yes, there is a whole constricting sidebar, but I'd like to ignore them right now, you know. I just like to put them over there, because I do feel like we want to progress. I feel like human beings want to progress and have more freedom. Everyone should have freedom to choose and be who they want to be without judgment. That's how we're all going to be happier and be kinder to each other and have a better world than in my opinion.

00:26:14
Speaker 2: And we also we still I mean there's still the problem of having to live with each other.

00:26:18
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so we need.

00:26:21
Speaker 2: We need certain kind of regulation constraints on ourselves. I mean there is still I mean, we're always going to need socialization. Yes, you know, dogs socialize each other. We we we're gonna need somewhere. But it would be nice to have more breathing.

00:26:37
Speaker 1: Group definitely, definitely, And I feel like that's the future. I hope. It's just horribly bumpy right now, you know. And that's the thing that I love about what we do in our field is that, you know, we are somewhat in a bubble. Sometimes people criticize that bubble and understand, but also you know, you can create things and the people who want to find it can find it.

00:26:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I also think that I mean, for example, this show, I mean, it's it's there's a certain kind of social responsibility of a show like yours, because you're you're you're putting out there the coordinates of how one can think of relationships, yes, and and and people look to that and and they measure themselves against that, you know, they they they I mean, TV is like the most powerful medium on earth now and it really tells people like how how can I live? What's okay? Right? What makes sense? And what's intelligible. It's it's it's an important medium.

00:27:55
Speaker 1: It really is. It really is, and it's important to have choices within that. And that's what we have to keep pushing forward on. We're not even gonna talk about where our industry is right now. But you know, the good people at HBO or fight in a good fight and they will continue to do so, so we love them for that. Let's go back to carry in the cheating for a second. So I love because we're talking to an expert. Okay, So We've got the situation where we have Aiden and she would like to somehow be the girl that Aiden wants or that Aiden is seeing or projecting onto her right, but she's having internal struggles to do that, and you know, probably for other reasons. Also, she goes and cheats with Big. Now my question that I have, and again this is all my stuff. I feel like she and Big have what I would call unfinished business right, like they didn't really work things out fully. And that's a hard thing. Now I know that you cannot really necessarily complete or whatever you would like to call it, sometimes without help, like you need some person like yourself or something to help you. But obviously Carrie is not a therapy person. She goes to therapy for one episode and ends up sleeping with a character there who's played by John bon Jovi, and at the end of that, yeah, you don't remember that. It's really funny. It's really funny. She meets him in the waiting room and of course he's Jump bon Jovi. He's very cute, and they go on a day there's a lot of chemistry. Then they have sex and they're laying in bed afterwards, and she says, oh, you know, I never asked you why are you? Why are you going to therapy? And he goes, oh, I'm paraphrasing, but he goes, oh, I have this issue. You know, I sleep with women and then I never call them again.

00:29:51
Speaker 2: Oh god, it's terrible.

00:29:54
Speaker 1: It's terrible.

00:29:55
Speaker 2: I know.

00:29:56
Speaker 1: So she's like, well, I guess I just shouldn't go to therapy. That's where she goes. That's her her solution to that is that's her out, that's her out exactly. I also had this other client, this client, not a client, a guest on the podcast who said to me, Oh, you know, I was watching from this perspective because one of the things I love about the show is like, at different times in your life, you'll see different things in the characters based on your own experience. And she said, when I was watching this time, I thought, what is Carrie's trauma? And I said, you know, we're never gonna we're never going to look at that. We don't use that word in the show, but like, what do you make of that? Like that word is used a lot. Now, what do you think of that?

00:30:37
Speaker 2: Well, it's sometimes relevant, very relevant. I mean I have people that come into my office and like in a first session, I will already be asking that question because it's very palpable in the room, that there's like haunting of something. Yes, but it's certainly not relevant the way it's used now in the population. I mean, people use the term trauma so loosely and so freely it's disturbing. I mean, the fact that people go through hardships, or have difficult periods in their lives, or get particularly upset by certain things that is not trauma. And the fact that early experiences in life shape later in life doesn't mean you've had trauma. In my world, in the therapeutic world, the or trauma is used very you know, decipheringly, like you, trauma is something that really exceeds your capacity to process. It's something very abnormal that shatters something in you. It's not just difficulty. And in that sense, I mean, honestly, I don't think I've thought even once watching Sex and the City about trauma within of the characters got it. I agree, it seemed to me like pretty healthy, alive people. It never occurred to me to ask that question. That's good.

00:32:11
Speaker 1: I agree with you totally. I agree with you, and I think also just from a writing perspective. What we were trying to do was not be trying to dig back words, you know, because most people are just living their lives and doing the best they can and struggling with the things that they're struggling with that we're all struggling with, which is really the point of the show, you know. Yes, And I wouldn't. I don't look at carry and think what's her trauma? Either? I mean, I think, as you said, sometimes we are playing out something that might be based on your childhood that you don't know that you haven't unearthed. But that's not necessarily right, that's not trauma, that's just let right, that's just.

00:32:49
Speaker 2: Being a layered person who carries a history. And sometimes the history is even before your parents. It could be your grandparents. You know.

00:32:59
Speaker 1: Yes, trauma, right, that's important. I think that's important to say. Now. Could we also just touch for a second on the narcissist thing and how everyone online wants to call everyone else a narcissist? What is going on?

00:33:12
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, again, similar to what I said about trauma, In my professional world, we use the term narcissists for only very particular situations and particular personality organizations. People can be selfish, people can be annoying, they can be disappointing. It doesn't make them narcissists. The fact that somebody is not giving you what you want from them doesn't make them a narcissist.

00:33:44
Speaker 1: Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could.

00:33:46
Speaker 2: Be disappointing in many different ways and maybe a good reason to turn away from them or not. But narcissism is not necessarily what we're talking about, right. Narcissism in professional terms has to do with a real kind of fragility in sorry to use technical terms, but like the ego structure, where there's the person has to gather up a lot of resources to keep shoring up their sense of self, which leaves them quite fragile and leaves them with little that they can give outside of themselves because they keep having to re pull together their very damaged, yeah damage sense of self. It's a very particular personality organization that is quite painful for the narcissists themselves. They might need to put up a lot of bolstering and show around them, but it's really based around something quite a deep deficit. But there are other ways that people use the term narcis that are just basically expressing their frustration with the people around them, right.

00:35:04
Speaker 1: I think like they basically mean selfish. They perceive the other persons being selfish, which is obviously not does not equate to a full narcissistic person. Or there's also narcissistic tendencies right, right, which we.

00:35:19
Speaker 2: All can have narcissistic tendencies. Anyone who's like looked at children, I mean children start off with plenty of ego centrism and narcissistic tendencies and attempts to build the ego, and we can all revert back to that under certain conditions. There are some people that under the best conditions are like the most generous and open as they can be. But you put them under conditions of stress or conditions that threaten them, and they will become they will they're narcissistic tendencies will show up, right, So that's not narcissist.

00:36:00
Speaker 1: Described narcissism to me one time as like the person has had to create a house of cards for their identity, and so it's a very fragile thing that's been built. And then if one gets pulled out, like if an event or a personal situation is like so stressful to them as like one gets pulled out and the whole thing falls, and then there can be very i don't know what, like a defensive type behavior because they're trying to protect the fragile. It helped me. I mean, there's a lot of people in our industry who might be having some narcissistic tendencies at least, so it was helpful to think about it because it's very easy to just feel, you know, upset about how that person might be acting. Right, But then if you try to actually think about what's happening inside them, you have a lot more empathy. Which doesn't mean you don't have to protect yourself from it, but you can at least have some empathy for what is happening over there and maybe some understanding.

00:36:58
Speaker 2: I guess like that description a lot.

00:37:01
Speaker 1: Well, thank you, thank you. It was a professional like yourself who told me it was really helpful.

00:37:07
Speaker 2: Though.

00:37:07
Speaker 1: It was really helpful because sometimes you're just like why why is this person acting like this? Like what what what is happening? I'm just over here doing like normal nice things and they're like upset with me. But somehow you you're you're in a situation with them that has pushed buttons or you know, threatened them in some way, or.

00:37:24
Speaker 2: Can I can I ask you a couple of questions. Yes, I have both a question about the episode that we were focusing on, and I have a more general question okay, but more specifically about the episode. How did you feel about the whole preenup, the prenup and especially like the allocation of extra funds for the boy?

00:37:51
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I mean I was so stressed by the whole thing, and you know, it was It's interesting because I'm not somebody who's ever focused on man. I come from the South where everyone was like that, So it really was, you know, playing Charlotte in general, who wants these things so badly? And I certainly knew people who felt that they needed to fulfill these expectations of society and whatnot. It pushed a lot of buttons for me. And sometimes I would just be like, oh god, you know, and I would want to really like my own Christian reaction would be much bigger, probably than Charlotte's. But because Charlotte is Charlotte, you know, I had to really work hard to filter my own, my own thoughts and feelings. And when I watched back and Miranda. We're at that scene where Miranda is reading the prenup, and I mean Charlotte in general just doesn't even want a prenup because to her, that's not romance, that's not love, you know, which I fully fully get. Of course, if I ever did get married, which I don't expect you, I would definitely have a prenup. But you know, I get that she's just like, you know, she doesn't want to live in reality. She Charlotte is you know, she has created an elaborate, beautiful world in her mind and I really relate to that part, and she doesn't want to be brought down to life. And part of the whole Tray relationship, as it was presented to me before we filmed it was that that this is what it was going to be. On the one hand, it was going to look like the shiny perfect goal and the reality was going to be very, very different, and she was going to have to try to find out who she was it within those two things not matching, which I loved because that is it's life, right.

00:39:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's chapter two of my book.

00:39:43
Speaker 1: Are Fantastic. I can't wait to read it.

00:39:45
Speaker 2: I might use the character go for it, babe.

00:39:48
Speaker 1: So when we got to the prenup thing, I was very scared about that whole episode. I was scared mostly about when I have to say to Bunny, I'm worth a million. Yeah, partly because it he's just so profoundly uncomfortable, you know, to be not not that I didn't want to try to stand up. I thought that it's great that Charlotte's trying to stand up for herself, but also it's just like embarrassing to be to be putting a number on yourself, what the heck, you know. And I remember at the time there were a few times in this storyline, because it's really the more in depth storyline so far that I've gotten right where there'd just be a lot of the writers would just be like Jenny Biks, who wrote this episode, would be like, you know, you have to really like they were just very anxious about what I was going to do. So I was trying to find they want. They wanted me to like really powerfully present myself to Bunny, but my feeling was I'm still Charlotte, so you know, her version of powerful is not going to be my version of powerful necessarily. And also I'm much much younger at this point. I've never been in any of these situations, and I just just felt like it's it's uncomfortable, you know. And when I watched it, I did like it better than I expected because it's simple. I thought it was good that it was simple. And also Frances Stern Haggen just such a great actress who played Bunny and so present with me, which is always so helpful. But when we looked at the scene of Miranda reading the prenup, I was just gagged that there's a price for boys and no, Also like, what on earth, Like, I mean, tear that paper up? You know, that's my feeling. I was shocked. I didn't even really remember it, and I wish there was a whole time too where they used to say to me Charlotte wouldn't get angry, and I was like, you guys, what, Yeah, like what is she doing with all these feelings? Then? Like what is happening? And I remember towards the end of the when the tray situation is not going well and we're not having sex, which is of course horrible, and you know, he doesn't really want to work on it, which is all so horrible, And eventually I do kind of get to start to get angry, thank god. But I had said to them, you know, you guys, in Charlotte's white apartment, there's going to be a closet, and you're going to open the closet and there's going to be little body parts of all the men that she's chopped up and wrapped in cell a fane and put in there. Because that's what would happen if she literally is never angry, Like, yeah, right, that's insane. So but I think also in the beginning, we had the kind of archetypes of who the characters were supposed to be, and over time we got to deepen and deepen and you know, expand. But what did you think when you when you saw that part.

00:42:40
Speaker 2: Well, generally, I have I'm very fond of Charlotte's character. I mean, I just think she's holding on to like a certain kind of idealism or optimism that I you knows, as a realist as I am, I have that in me. It's very important for a couples therapist, for therapists generally to have that. So so her sweetness and her idealism always speak to me. But that part of it, I was just like this is not too much too much.

00:43:14
Speaker 1: Definitely agree, definitely and like the.

00:43:20
Speaker 2: Like the it connected me to the way I feel about like you know, like I had a friend years ago, a woman who said to me, I would never go to a female doctor. Oh, And I was like, how is it that women have internalized this kind of self hating? Like how what this bunny? Like what what do you mean a prenup? The like values boys more like women internalize this this exploitation Like yes, I don't know, it's it's maddening.

00:43:57
Speaker 1: I mean, that's another whole book. Yeah, we have so much evidence in the world of this deep internalization of the patriarchy. It's really mind boggling. And it goes on and on. But also I have a fourteen year old daughter, and it's interesting, you know, she's really at the age where I struggle with how much to tell her about the world, you know, and how deep to go. No one really talked to me when I was that age about these things. But I do feel like my eyes have really been opened by life. You know, I'm sixty, so I've obviously seen a lot, been through a lot, and you know, with things going on now, you know, such as the Epstein files like, it's huge. It purred me so much of our daily lives.

00:44:48
Speaker 2: It's everywhere, all the time.

00:44:50
Speaker 1: Exactly, And so I do feel I've started to without I try not to scare her. I don't want her to be riddled with fear, but at the same time, I I feel like I need to say to her, you know, there's this situation in life, ye unfortunately that you need.

00:45:06
Speaker 2: To be aware of but and fight not be afraid.

00:45:10
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, yeah, absolutely, but like for her because I should probably not say all this, but you know, sometimes she wants to do things, you know how she's fourteen. She wants to go out with her friends and do things or whatever. And I'm like, no, you can't go there. I'm sorry, I have to go with you. And she's like, no, mom, no one else's mom comes And I said, well, maybe I'll stay a little distance and just watch, you know. I mean, like, I just have anxiety about her out in the world alone with her friends, because I don't feel at fourteen that they really know all of the things that could happen. They don't, right, thank you. I need you to call her and tell her, because she says to me, she says to me, Mom, I would know if someone had bad intentions. I'm like, baby, no, no, so cute that you think that. And then she's like, I would just punch them, and like that is adorable. But it's so much more complicated, you know. But it's like the it's such a conundrum about like safety versus knowledge versus feeling powerful. You want them to feel powerful within it, not that it's like overwhelming and going to get them. But on the other hand, it does permeate everything.

00:46:18
Speaker 2: It does. I don't think we can I don't think as parents we can like deal with a safety issue other than you know, like you're saying, like be there and watch. But safety is something that's mostly out of our hands. But what we can do is like help our kids understand what are the ideological forces that are right in front of them, like patriarchy, like the way masculinity is defined absolutely, you know, women internalizing patriarchy. It's those are the two that I think as parents, it's really important to kind of keep giving our kids.

00:47:05
Speaker 1: Great good I'm doing that. I'll keep doing that. That's good. That's good. So wait, what else were you going to ask me? You said, questions?

00:47:22
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you more in general about the gap between you and the character. How does that?

00:47:33
Speaker 1: It's funny because now it's been twenty eight years that i've been playing a right not the whole time. We've had breaks, obviously, but people are always asking me like, where's the difference, And when we started, people would ask me that, and I get to have a very specific list of like this is Charlotte characteristics, these are Christian characteristics. But after all this time, it's really hard to do. But I don't feel I feel like she's part of me, but she's not me, you know what I'm saying. But she is me because she's not someone else. You know what I'm saying. It's weird. It's a weird thing. But I love her. I love her desperately. You know.

00:48:07
Speaker 2: She's very lovable, she really is.

00:48:09
Speaker 1: And she's lovable because she really tries hard, you know, and she is willing to change. Like her the whole idea of the Tray situation was that she was going to be pursuing this goal. No matter what she was going to get it. It wasn't going to be what she thought. It was going to look great on the outside, not be great on the inside, and she was going to have to deal with that, like what does that really mean to her? How important is it to actually have the true love she talks about? Right? Yea, and thank god she she It was not easy, right. And also the first idea was that Kyle would only come in as Tray for like five episodes. It would all happen very quickly, but that he would be very dull. He was supposed to be very boring, like that kind of couple where like no one wants to talk to the other person, like the friends are like, who's going to talk to the husband? You know, like that. But he was played by Kyle, so he wasn't very boring. He was fantastic and all of us were just collectively in love with him, right, So he stayed and it became more complex as a result of us loving him so much and what he brought to the character and how kind of you know, off he made it just slightly offbeat and interesting in terms of you didn't know what was happening over there. Yeah. So then he stayed longer, which I thought was good, and we got to kind of I haven't rewatched all, but we got to kind of go deeper into you know, what are the issues with the intimacy? What's that about? And then she tries to hall MD to therapy, but he doesn't really want to participate, which is really heartbreaking. You know, when you have the things that you think are going to be amazing for your entire future. Like Charlotte is loyal. You know, she's going to try her best, and I love that about her. But then when it falls apart and Harry shows up as her divorce lawyer, who looks nothing like anything she would ever have thought of, but in fact truly inside who she needs and wants, and she makes it work and she pivots, you know, she changes. Love that, Yeah, love that. I love him And we just saw him last night. We gave Sara Jesska an award, which was so wonderful, and Evan came and you know, I just he was on the press line with me. And I take Evan for granted so much because I've had him so long, but like just hearing his voice just gives me so much comfort, Like just working together over time, you know, in the way that we've been able to all of our people. I feel that way about But you know, he's really been with me for a long time.

00:50:36
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of amazing.

00:50:38
Speaker 1: But I love that about Charlotte. I love that Charlotte, you know, like also with her children. She has these children, she thinks they're going to be a certain way. Of course they're not. She has to pivot again, you know. I love the ability, even though she doesn't appear on the outside, like she's the person who's going to be able to do that, the insights, she's going to do the work to try to get there. I love that about her. Yeah, but it is sometimes hard to separate. For sure.

00:51:05
Speaker 2: She has she changed you.

00:51:08
Speaker 1: I mean I think so. You know, that's that's a hard, hard thing. It's hard to say because obviously the experience of doing the show has changed me. It's changed all of our lives so much. Sure, and we love each other so much, and we've been through this just insane experience, you know, for twenty eight years. I mean, we've filmed a film in Morocco, like we you know, we've traveled the world. It's just been unbelievable. Plus we've spent eighteen hours a day together for years. Right, So it's a very unusual and deep and intimate relationship with the actual people behind the camera and on camera. That's hard to separate characters. Yeah, yeah, the characters. We've all been with our characters forever, and we've all been in these scenes together, right, so like yeah, just as an actor knowing the other actors so well, yeah, it is. It's just so unique and amazing and I'm so grateful. I cannot I could never have dreamt of this, you know, as an actor, you're just trying to find any job, you know, for two months or whatever. But it's just been a bounty of joy and depth, and you know, we've been through it all together really, so it's been incredible and I can't really at this point kind of separate them out really yeah. Yeah, but in a good way, you know, in a good way. Okay, wait, let's talk about cheating again, because I do feel like people are just fascinated by this and talk about I feel like, in the world cheating and or just sexuality chemistry, like it's so confusing to think about, Like, Okay, so Big and Carrie have this chemistry, right, And she says at one point, like why does something so oh bad feels so good? And Samantha says, well, it's created that way. Like as a therapist, Well, how would you advise clients about such things?

00:53:11
Speaker 2: Are you asking me? What do I advise clients about cheating?

00:53:15
Speaker 1: Yeah? Or just a chemistry part or you know what I mean?

00:53:18
Speaker 2: Like, I know that's hard to diplomatically avoid that question.

00:53:22
Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, fair enough, I guess it's hard to know, Like I mean for myself as a single person, right, And there's all these people who talk about Like I'm this one friend who said to me, like, you need to go out and be bored on a date. And I was like, but why come on, I'd rather be home with my kids. I don't want to go be bored on a date, you know. But she's like, you need to do something different. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I get it.

00:53:45
Speaker 2: I get it.

00:53:45
Speaker 1: And not that I want to dissect my own self necessarily though obviously partly I do, or I wouldn't bring that up. But okay, so, like it's it's hard for me to want to do that, Like, if there's not chemistry, I don't see the fucking point. Is that just me being like not grown up? No?

00:54:10
Speaker 2: I look, there are many there are many channels that make us want to connect to other people to attach, right, And it depends on what what's the primary need you're operating from. I mean, do you are you? I mean it sounds like you're saying what you're looking for is something interesting?

00:54:32
Speaker 1: Yes, so.

00:54:35
Speaker 2: Great, that's what you need right now, because probably you have a lot of the other things already dealt with in your life. I do, And that's the thing that you're looking for. I mean, someone else might be seeking security, right.

00:54:51
Speaker 1: See. I never understood that stability, right, I never understood that either that people would need that, that you would look to a man for that. I don't. I don't feel I don't that doesn't.

00:55:02
Speaker 2: Forget about man, not man. But you can imagine that certain people, let's say, I mean it doesn't have to be related to this, but let's say they've had a very unstable early life, and what they really in their heart of hearts or in their bones, what they're missing is some sense of like predictability, it's to even start going on being right, So for them, you know what they're looking for. More, what's more important is that is some sense of stability of companionship, you know, the non interest, right, I mean, think of it as masslows hierarchy of needs. I don't know what's more important. It really depends on what are the deficits you're coming with or where you are in your life, right, right, and different reasons to attach to a person and right.

00:55:57
Speaker 1: I was always looking for adventure, travel, intimacy, excitement, like things that are not like marriage e type things journy mean or at least whatever the cliche is, I guess, but my thing now is that. So then I found myself thinking, oh my gosh, I think I want to have children. So I adopted two children. Now I'm, you know, very much in mommy mode when I'm not working, because it's kind of a lot, right, Like, yeah, you know, it's a lot, And it's also you know, a very different kind of intimacy obviously, but like it's very intimate to raise.

00:56:34
Speaker 2: Children, extremely intimate. Right.

00:56:37
Speaker 1: So it in some ways I feel like it uses that muscle or whatnot.

00:56:44
Speaker 2: I don't know how to put it, but supplies that need.

00:56:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does, it really does. So I don't really I don't really feel like, oh my gosh, I'm missing so much. But then I also feel and I'd love to know your thoughts on this. I also feel like there is a part of me that is not kind of being challenged and or growing because I'm not in an intimate relationship yep. And I don't know. I don't know how to make that happen so that, but I do feel I do feel like there. I feel in a way like I'm chickening out. Do you know I do I.

00:57:25
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously I don't know you enough personally to really say something. But I think one of the things that an intimate relationship pulls for or makes us grow is going back to the idea of selfishness, is the idea of like it asks you to move outside of yourself, and children do that, Yes, children do that more than anything. Yes, Like You're constantly having to prioritize some other sense of subjectivity. You have to try to imagine what it's like for someone else, you have to deprioritize your own needs. It's it's a it's and that's a huge important lesson. We grow from that. It's it's everything that will take us out of ourselves. So in that sense, you're you're you're probably doing plenty in that realm.

00:58:24
Speaker 1: Thank you.

00:58:25
Speaker 2: I mean, the other thing that I think romantic relationships do is it has something to do with the realm of like it's a different it's different intimacy when it's like peer to peer intimacy, when it's not like a parent child or or the other way around, taking care of an elderly parent, it's it's peer to peer. And then obviously the dimension of sexuality over time, which is a whole other complex world. Sexuality over time, I'm not just the thrill of like new new, but the thrill of not the thrill, the getting to know someone on that level over time. That's it's whole another world. Not everyone is good at not everyone.

00:59:15
Speaker 1: Wants right, right. I mean, I was in a really long relationship where I do feel like that happened and was really great. But then there were other outside world things that got in the way, which I'm sure also had to do with my choosing. You know, I have like whatever, because I wasn't choosing for safety and security right and I didn't really think I was choosing for life necessarily either. But I did stay for a very long time. But one thing that I do think of which I wouldn't say, except that I really love you and I trust you, I feel like one of the messages that I got somehow in my early childhood was that it's hard to hold onto myself in a relationship, like I lose myself. And there was a time when I did this to try to have children on my own. I was around forty something when I started thinking about it. I kind of felt like, well, I'm kind of just caretaking and not parenting, but like caretaking these men, I should just raise some children, you know. But yeah, I don't know how to necessarily do both, because I don't think I could. I don't know if I could, I should say, don't know yet. And I haven't tried really lately to really keep myself because now that I have the children, the children really need me. I can't give myself up to a relationship. And I don't know how to reconcile that in my mind. Obviously, if I've met the right person, maybe, but you kind of have to work to meet the right people. Yeah, and I'm definitely not doing it, meaning go and meet them, yes, like actually like leave the house. You know what I'm saying, right, Because people have wanted to put me on the apps, you know. Sarah Jeska at one point threatened to make them profile for me, and I was like, unless you are available to come on every one of those dates with me, right, please don't do it, because I I just don't know if I have the band with I just it's I don't I don't know how to balance it, I guess, you know.

01:01:12
Speaker 2: But kind of going back to the one of the first things you started talking about, and do you have to?

01:01:21
Speaker 1: No, I do not have to. I've got to take my sweater off. I do not have to. And that's the thing too, is like, like Sir Jessica said to me last night when we were at this thing, She was like, I need an update, and I said, I don't. I don't. I don't have an update, And I always feel terrible, like she wants me to be happy. She means the best, of course, right, but I just I just don't know what how to. It doesn't seem to be a priority. You know, there's sometimes when I think about it, I think life is short, Like what the fuck am I doing?

01:01:55
Speaker 2: You're raising kids?

01:01:58
Speaker 1: Okay, profession okay, okay, good, good, okay, good, But you know that it's like that societal pressure of like people don't quite know what to make of it. When you're just like, yes, I'm single, Yes I've been single kind of a long time, you know, like they're just like, oh, something must be horribly wrong with her, like it's an interesting thing.

01:02:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I'm not into that whole hegemony.

01:02:25
Speaker 1: Yes, it's so true. It's so true. It's really interesting.

01:02:28
Speaker 2: Also, look around us. I mean, people are now choosing all sorts of ways to live that are not only like you know, the heterosexual couple right love it all these other ways that people live now.

01:02:40
Speaker 1: It's definitely definitely. Also there's this great article. I don't know how much of this kind of stuff you see, but this woman in England wrote this article about how it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Oh no, yeah, it went just blew up because it was basically saying, you know how people present on social media and it looks so glossy and amazing and blah blah blah. And it used to be like the flex was to have your hot man there on vacation with you wherever, and then after a while it seemed like that was like you're just giving your power away, you know, like like why like why does this amazing woman need to have a man like like that's boring, you know, it's just really fascinating and I love to watch just the reactions to all to all the things like this and the changes. And of course, as you said, it's it's not a global situation where we're all changing, obviously, but there's inroads I feel like, and I love to see them. It makes me excited, you know. But yeah, that's one of the things I love about your show too, is you have so many different couples with so many different backgrounds and expectations and kind of paving their own road forward, and you're helping them do that and also understanding the outside societal issues that they're also come bumping up against, right, Yeah, I mean constant, absolutely constant. I mean I just try never to discuss my dating life with anybody, necessarily in person, so that they don't ask me twenty million questions that I can't answer, do you know what I mean? Like what like why are you single? You know, and I'm just like, oh god, it's a story, okay, you.

01:04:24
Speaker 2: Know, No, this is not a legitimate question why are you single? It's like asking someone why are you gay?

01:04:31
Speaker 1: Good? Good?

01:04:32
Speaker 2: Why are you great?

01:04:33
Speaker 1: That's good? That's what I'm gonna say. That's what I'm gonna say next time. I'm gonna say doctor Orne says this. I love it. But I mean, really, what we're talking about too, is just you have to create the freedom to be yourself in that moment. Yeah, and that might not be forever, but it is my moment right now. It's not a priority.

01:04:54
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:04:54
Speaker 1: I do sometimes beat myself up about it, but it's just not actually a priority.

01:04:59
Speaker 2: You know. Well, I approve, thank you, Thank you so much.

01:05:03
Speaker 1: Oh you know what, I have such an interesting question to ask you. I have no idea what you're going to say, because I only know you as your doctor self from watching your show. But I ask everyone who comes on the show this, are you a Charlotte doctor Orna?

01:05:20
Speaker 2: Oh, that's the title of the It is generally no, Okay, Other than what I said earlier, this like the magic dust of idealism. Yeah, I definitely have that.

01:05:36
Speaker 1: I love.

01:05:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:05:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, you would need that in your job for sure. For sure, because you also need to give it. You need to have a present in the room because people are just going through so much when they come to you. Yeah, and I do think that's the most bestest part of Charlotte. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Would you say if you had to be placing yourself with another I think the obvious choice for you would be a Miranda who's like super intellect and straight talking. At least that's how I think of her.

01:06:11
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I think. I mean, on some I think i'd say that I identify with each of the characters.

01:06:20
Speaker 1: Amazing. Yeah, that's great, that's what we want, that's what we want. That's a great answer. That's a great answer. I don't know if we talked about the show enough, but I love everything we talked about. I love everything we talked about because I wanted the bigger picture and I wanted your professional opinion on some of it, because I do feel like, on the one hand, is I don't I don't think it's a bad thing that people want to kind of try to analyze stuff online or whatever, even though obviously they're not all doctors, because I do feel like people are searching, right They're searching for what is the truth of this what is the you know, what should I do in this relationship? What is the truth of our society?

01:07:02
Speaker 2: You know?

01:07:02
Speaker 1: All of those things, and they don't they don't necessarily know what to say, you know, so like they grab onto kind of easy answers or whatever. But also I do know, just from a therapeutic standpoint that of course you have a you know, much higher standard of how you would use those terms that I think are It's important to hear that, yeah, and be reminded of it.

01:07:25
Speaker 2: Even though I think people air a lot in the overuse of terms like narcissism and trauma, I'm also glad that people are interested in these kind of psychological ways of like parsing out the world.

01:07:38
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's good. Absolutely, Absolutely, it's a beginning, right, like maybe they'll search more.

01:07:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, we just need to get more refined and responsible with how we use the terms.

01:07:48
Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely. Well, let me let you go to your patient, and we really appreciate your time.

01:07:54
Speaker 2: Thank you for inviting me.

01:07:55
Speaker 1: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm a big, big fan. I can't wait to see more shows. Gay bye, great day.

01:08:02
Speaker 2: Bye,