Aug. 18, 2026
Killer Mom Trial: The Defense Of Lindsay Clancy Begins, Mom And Sister Testify
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RSS Feed On Monday, the prosecution rested its case against the Massachusetts mom who killed her three young children with another digital forensics expert who testified to Lindsay Clancy’s last known resting heart rate, which was recorded at 57 around the time of the murders, suggesting she was calm. The defense began its case shortly afterwards, calling up a former co-worker who testified about what a caring and loving nurse Lindsay was to her patients, and then her sister and mother took the stand. They both described Lindsay’s unraveling demeanor starting in the months leading up to the killings, her mom saying she even warned her and the children’s father, Patrick, that she had thoughts of harming the children.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey, the folks. It is Tuesday, August eighteenth, and the prosecution rests in the triple murder trial of Lindsey Clancy, and now the defense gets its turn to try to prove she is not criminally responsible for the murder of her three young children. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I guess the defense he's gonna start with, Well, they started with family members, and I guess it. I thought they were going to try to pull at our heartstrings in some way about her as a mother. But they need them up there to prove how she was doing leading up to these murders exactly.
00:00:42
Speaker 2: This is all about her state of mind and whether or not she was in a state of psychosis. That is what the defense needs to prove to get that not guilty verdict. And yes, they began their case in week four of the Lindsay Clancy trial. And so yes, the prosecution had a final witness up first off in the morning.
00:01:04
Speaker 3: It didn't seem like it amounted to much.
00:01:06
Speaker 2: She was a digital forensics expert, and it was just a little bit interesting because he talked about her last recorded heart rate. It was fifty seven. They talked about her going up two flights of stairs at five oh three and five thirty three, which was supposed.
00:01:19
Speaker 1: To proof why what was the price? She was calm.
00:01:22
Speaker 3: I think that she was calm, that she was then there for what.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: That she wasn't in a state of psychosis, That she wasn't freaking out in manic She was actually calm and deliberate in her actions.
00:01:32
Speaker 1: They get anybody up there to prove that if you are in some state of psychosis, your heart rates supposed to be up.
00:01:37
Speaker 3: No, this was that what I mean?
00:01:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, they lay stuff out and then just put it together for yourselves kind of a thing, leave it.
00:01:43
Speaker 2: Up for interpretation for the jury. I agree that was my I that's what I took from it.
00:01:49
Speaker 3: But you're right, it wasn't. She wasn't.
00:01:51
Speaker 2: They haven't done a good job of saying so would that mean that you were in a calm state? Like I needed some follow ups and some explanation. Maybe she'll bring it home in her clothing arguments, But she had it on the record that yes, her last recorded heart rate was fifty seven, and then talked about some searches that she made, and the defense actually just tried to question the reliability of the Apple Health app to try and maybe even throw him to question her reported heart rate. But once they got through of all with all of that, the defense did what they always do. They asked for a mistrial or they asked for a not guilty verdict because they say the prosecution didn't prove.
00:02:29
Speaker 1: Its case, and that's when the judge says, take you into consideration, but no, we're going to continue. And the judges are always polite about this, but we all know how it's overwhelmingly is going to go. So yes, it did continue. And I was curious to see what kind of case the defense and now is going to put on, because they do need to put folks up who they need to prove to this jury that that woman was not right in the head exactly.
00:02:53
Speaker 2: And so they began first with a friend of hers, a former coworker of Lindsay's, a labor and delivery nurse. For name was Margaret hamp and it was a quick Her time up on the stand was pretty quick. She just basically got on the record that Lindsay Clancy was the type of nurse you wanted to take care of you and your loved one. So she established basically just how kind and loving and caring Lindsay Clancy was. But then yes, her sister comes up Allison orzga ozga, excuse me, and talks about what she saw from her sister in Thanksgiving and then in December and then after New Year's and she describes her sister as beginning with a mood that didn't look good, where she seemed off. In December she seemed worse, depressed, talked about suicidal thoughts. But then after New Year's, after that hospital stay, she said she saw her sister seemingly starting to feel better, but then went on to say nope. At January, at Core's birthday party, she looked tired again. She was still struggling. But the prosecution was able to make a few points that were in their favor. They got her.
00:04:03
Speaker 3: Sister to admit that she told police.
00:04:06
Speaker 2: After the murders that Lindsey seemed to be doing okay and that her tone and texts seemed to be better.
00:04:15
Speaker 1: Then you would believe that in that I get what they're trying to do. The prosecution is trying to focus so much on a particular section of this woman's life leading up to the killings, where she seemed to be doing okay. That's all. I want you all to focus on the days that she seemed to be healthy. And yes, there were those days, and there were those days of her family seemed to recognize that she was doing better. But I get it, but it just isn't for me at least, and I don't know how for the juries. It's it's so overwhelming in the argument that it just doesn't stack up against the overwhelming years of history of this woman having problems. That there were like two weeks the prosecution wants me to focus on that she was doing a little better.
00:04:58
Speaker 2: And maybe she was doing better because she she had a plan in place in her psychosis, in her psychotic head. I mean, you could argue that that maybe you do start to calm down when you have a plan. You know, you're anxious when you don't know what to do. You're anxious when you're trying to look for answers. And then if you in a state of psychosis settle on a plan, maybe that did make her seem okay and better because she knew what she was going to do.
00:05:19
Speaker 1: See, we were sitting here as potential jurors, you know, trying to hash this out. Well maybe this was it, Well maybe this it's just not so there is nothing that makes me think this woman was okay, even when she was seemingly doing okay for the day or two or three or four a week or whatever. Agreed, There's nothing that goes yeah, wow, it sounds like she was cured.
00:05:39
Speaker 3: No, agreed. Yes.
00:05:41
Speaker 2: So then mom gets up Paula Musgrove, And this was emotional. She talked about her daughter being a good kid, a good student, a great, loving, caring mother, said she always wanted to be a mother.
00:05:52
Speaker 3: She was one.
00:05:53
Speaker 2: I've talked about these women and I know them and I love them in my life, and I'm in awe of them. They literally grow up way and wanting to become mothers.
00:06:02
Speaker 3: And that was how she described her daughter.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: And she talked about being a grandmother and said it was the most beautiful thing she's ever experienced in her life and that she loved those little kids with all her heart. And it was emotional, and it choked me up, it choked her up. And I do think that that was an important moment because this was a woman who's on the stand defending Lindsey Clancy, who loved those kids more than anyone in that room, maybe even as much as perhaps Lindsay Clancy herself. But that speaks to the jury her motive. She loved those little kids. If anybody would want justice for those little kids, you would think it would be Paula Musgrove.
00:06:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, that works, And now you've just explained it. I wondered how it was going to go. It was awkward, uncomfortable at times, just the idea of the prosecution cross examining the mom, the idea of the prosecution that has been for weeks now, dismissing any idea that the woman was sick, right, dismissing any idea that Lindsay Clancy is anything other than the calculated, premeditated, cold blood and murder of her own children.
00:07:12
Speaker 3: Who was selfish and wanted to take her kids with her.
00:07:15
Speaker 1: So Rova, I mean, this is best you could hope for in the cross examination, I suppose. I don't know. If it got go, I wouldn't describe it as contentious necessarily, but it was just awkward, just by the nature of the two people that had to talk to each other.
00:07:29
Speaker 3: It was It's uncomfortable.
00:07:31
Speaker 2: It's awkward because a lot of this testimony was about these texts that went on between Lindsay Clancy's mom, Paula and Lindsay Clancy. And look, she did talk about that in December with Patrick present. She told us she had thoughts of harming the children. She talked about Lindsay losing a bunch of weight and becoming paranoid about illogical things. And I think one of the things that jumped out during the direct questioning was Paula said that her daughter asked her please come stay with me, and she went for a week, and she told her it's just really scary.
00:08:05
Speaker 3: I don't want to be alone.
00:08:06
Speaker 2: And she said there was one night that was actually the most disturbing in December when she asked if she could sleep in the same bed as her mom.
00:08:14
Speaker 3: Like that's how scared she was.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: I mean that a grown woman wanting to sleep in bed with mommy that speaks volumes.
00:08:23
Speaker 1: That stuff spoke to me more than more than anything else. Robes and Patrick testified to it as well. The ex husband. Now, but to hear the mom somebody else confirm that she had a thought about harming her children, Robes to hear that from now two witnesses, it's overwhelmingly just beating down any narrative that the prosecution is kind of presenting like she was so this was part of her plan.
00:09:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's she's telling her husband and her.
00:09:06
Speaker 1: Mom a month, a month and a half.
00:09:07
Speaker 3: Yah, she has thoughts of harming her kids.
00:09:10
Speaker 2: Why would you do that to set up your defense before you do that. That's really hard to believe, like exceptionally hard to believe.
00:09:17
Speaker 1: It's more reasonable to think that this is a woman who was genuinely scared about something happening to her and she didn't understand what it was, and she didn't know who to talk to and how to she didn't know how to manage. Is the more reasonable story to me right now?
00:09:32
Speaker 2: Ro Absolutely, And look that awkward cross examination. I don't think it really landed because yes, they got her to admit that. Or read about this text where she says, nice to see you doing better, and I believe that was the day of or the day before the murders, and the mom put it like this, this was not really about my observation of my daughter. It was more meant to encourage her rather than discourage her, Like she had a better day and I wanted to encourage her to keep having better days. So it was nice to see you doing better. It didn't mean that she was suddenly doing better. That made a lot of sense to me, a lot of sense to me.
00:10:10
Speaker 1: Any argument the prizecues, it just that's negated. Nothing like, oh okay, and that makes sense. That sounds like exactly what a mom. If you're on that jur and you're a mom, you've done it. If you're on that gur and you have a mom, she's done it to you. Yes, right, everybody gets that, Like she knows you're not doing great, but she's telling you you're doing better. Like it.
00:10:29
Speaker 2: It's like a coach, just kind of like trying to get there, like just to encourage someone, to get them to see the bright side, to see that better days are ahead.
00:10:39
Speaker 3: That all makes sense.
00:10:40
Speaker 2: So yes, any notion that somehow Lindsay's mom was noticing that her daughter was suddenly doing better, she did a very good job explaining that. And I don't think the prosecution's cross had any impact whatsoever on jurors, at least it didn't for me.
00:10:56
Speaker 1: I'm amazed. I'm stopping here kind of because you just triggered this thought. I am amazed at how many people don't want to hear anything about this woman other than she's a monster. She's the devil. There is no defense out there, there's nothing to talk about, nothing to discuss like she is. And those who question or might be open to this idea of psychosis, we're all idiots. You're all stupid. You're like, I've seen a pretty vile conversation that I didn't realize I started reading about. I don't know why I took a deep dive this morning, but I was really really surprised that just how many folks see nothing but oh don't want to hear anything else.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: Now.
00:11:42
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they've read into it, what her defense is, but if you hear woman strangles five year old, three year old, eight month old, you're going to react. And I guess much of that is just nobody's open to any other interpretation of that robes. But I was surprised. I'm just stopping there because you were as we were discussing what sounds reasonable. Frankly, it doesn't at all sound even pausible or should be even considered to a lot of people think.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: But it just must be folks.
00:12:16
Speaker 2: Unwillingness to accept mental illness as a defense, because it's.
00:12:22
Speaker 3: Interesting that you point that out.
00:12:23
Speaker 2: I didn't realize there was that big of a drumbeat on that side of things, but I do. I was trying to get into the psychology of that, and I do think it's scary to think that that type of behavior could exist in all of us if we were under the a certain type of stress, if we had a certain predisposition for mental illness.
00:12:44
Speaker 3: That's just a scary thought.
00:12:45
Speaker 2: It's better to just say she's the outlier, she's a monster, she's evil, versus this is a mental illness that could happen to other women. That's a scary thought to even entertain. So people just want to I do believe that generally speaking, a lot of people just want their to be good people and bad people, evil and good, and that just makes you feel safe and structured in the world.
00:13:06
Speaker 3: And it's hard. I think mental illness.
00:13:09
Speaker 2: Anyone who struggled with it has struggled with the perception of them if they've suffered with any kind of mental illness, and this might just be yes the worst case scenario possible, but it's hard for people to understand and accept.
00:13:25
Speaker 1: We can't see ourselves or the people we love in her, so we have to make her an outlier. Yet, right, it's not possible that we could overlook signs and symptoms. It's impossible that we could ever fall victim to what she did. She must be different, she must be evil, Like you said, Yeah, man, it's I was really surprised.
00:13:50
Speaker 3: It's not.
00:13:50
Speaker 1: You can believe differently, you can believe. Well, I still think she's responded like there is just a fierce like you all for even considering something wow, evil and there's nothing else to talk about.
00:14:01
Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to see if any jurors feel that same way. Well, when we come back, we're going to talk about the defense's final witness of the day. Yes, they are starting to roll out their own medical experts. Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. The defense put up their final witness of the day. They're medical expert doctor Michael Wolfovich. He's an emergency doctor. And this was an attempt to buy the defense to again try to prove that yes, Lindsay Clancy in fact did genuinely try to kill herself, despite what the prosecution has claimed that it was some sort of fake attempt to make it look like she was trying to commit suicide. So their expert got up and he interpreted Lindsay Clancy's medical records and refute some of what the prosecution's medical experts testified too. He said, instead of those superficial wounds that we've been hearing so much about, that Clancy had full thickness lacerations and there were observed hesitation wounds, which is a hallmark for people who try to die by suicide, cutting their wrists, cutting her neck and that was effective, and then also went into the spinal fractures. Just how much she was injured. We all can see her in the wheelchair. We all know she can't use her legs. To me, that's the most obvious part of her lasting injuries. That are just a reserve as a constant reminder to me that, yes, this woman jumped out of a window in an attempt to enter life.
00:15:45
Speaker 1: How do you combat that. The prosecution is saying that was a fake suicide attempt and the woman is over there in a wheelchair.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, who wants to not die by suicide but instead wants to live in a wheelchair? Like?
00:16:02
Speaker 3: Who?
00:16:02
Speaker 2: Like, that's nothing anyone would choose, and that would be a really stupid plan. It makes that to me is the biggest, most glaring piece of evidence. It's literally sitting in the courtroom in front of the jurors each and every day.
00:16:15
Speaker 1: They've gone pretty hard on that theory too, about the fake suicide attempt, spider manning down the walls, a line we'll never forget from this strike.
00:16:22
Speaker 2: Right right, and so yes, he confirmed also that Lindsay Clancy, Yes, went into cardiac arrest and it took two rounds to resuscitate her. She died in the hospital that night, so she needed blood, she had to be resuscitated. All of that was brought home for jurors by this witness. Now there was not time for cross examination. That will begin today when court resumes at nine am. The judge announced to the jurors there will be another full day of testimony. They were sent home around three o'clock yesterday afternoon. They seem to have really nice working hours. Nine am to three pm is about as long of a day as these jurors have had so far.
00:17:00
Speaker 1: And then unexpected breaks, see this comes out. You know, we're gonna hed you home the rest of It's a lot of that been going on. Actually, there has there has been some it's been a very.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Disruptive. But yeah, it's like starting and stopping, starting and stopping. So look, and we expect the defense to be putting up a bunch of medical experts. Also, by the way, the defense is still trying to voidere that TikToker who they want to get up on the stand, and that could happen today as well outside of the jury. But the judge is going to allow the defense and the prosecution to question this witness who once worked at the hospital that Lindsey Clancy admitted herself to in January around New Year's Day for those five days, to talk about how it isn't the five star medical facility that the prosecution has put on for the jury, that it's quite the opposite, that it's understaffed and it's not and it's not some wonderful place where mothers who are suffering from postpart of depression and can recover. So we'll see if that witness went to TikTok I'm explaining about this hospital, who's clearly been watching the trial, if she will actually end up getting to testify in front of the jury.
00:18:13
Speaker 1: It was like a stretch to me, baby, to let this person up on the stand and we'll see.
00:18:17
Speaker 3: We shall see.
00:18:18
Speaker 2: We will be watching, and we always appreciate you listening to us. Everyone, I maybe Roebuck alongside TJ.
00:18:24
Speaker 3: Holmes. We will talk soon.
Speaker 1: Hey, the folks. It is Tuesday, August eighteenth, and the prosecution rests in the triple murder trial of Lindsey Clancy, and now the defense gets its turn to try to prove she is not criminally responsible for the murder of her three young children. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. I guess the defense he's gonna start with, Well, they started with family members, and I guess it. I thought they were going to try to pull at our heartstrings in some way about her as a mother. But they need them up there to prove how she was doing leading up to these murders exactly.
00:00:42
Speaker 2: This is all about her state of mind and whether or not she was in a state of psychosis. That is what the defense needs to prove to get that not guilty verdict. And yes, they began their case in week four of the Lindsay Clancy trial. And so yes, the prosecution had a final witness up first off in the morning.
00:01:04
Speaker 3: It didn't seem like it amounted to much.
00:01:06
Speaker 2: She was a digital forensics expert, and it was just a little bit interesting because he talked about her last recorded heart rate. It was fifty seven. They talked about her going up two flights of stairs at five oh three and five thirty three, which was supposed.
00:01:19
Speaker 1: To proof why what was the price? She was calm.
00:01:22
Speaker 3: I think that she was calm, that she was then there for what.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: That she wasn't in a state of psychosis, That she wasn't freaking out in manic She was actually calm and deliberate in her actions.
00:01:32
Speaker 1: They get anybody up there to prove that if you are in some state of psychosis, your heart rates supposed to be up.
00:01:37
Speaker 3: No, this was that what I mean?
00:01:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, they lay stuff out and then just put it together for yourselves kind of a thing, leave it.
00:01:43
Speaker 2: Up for interpretation for the jury. I agree that was my I that's what I took from it.
00:01:49
Speaker 3: But you're right, it wasn't. She wasn't.
00:01:51
Speaker 2: They haven't done a good job of saying so would that mean that you were in a calm state? Like I needed some follow ups and some explanation. Maybe she'll bring it home in her clothing arguments, But she had it on the record that yes, her last recorded heart rate was fifty seven, and then talked about some searches that she made, and the defense actually just tried to question the reliability of the Apple Health app to try and maybe even throw him to question her reported heart rate. But once they got through of all with all of that, the defense did what they always do. They asked for a mistrial or they asked for a not guilty verdict because they say the prosecution didn't prove.
00:02:29
Speaker 1: Its case, and that's when the judge says, take you into consideration, but no, we're going to continue. And the judges are always polite about this, but we all know how it's overwhelmingly is going to go. So yes, it did continue. And I was curious to see what kind of case the defense and now is going to put on, because they do need to put folks up who they need to prove to this jury that that woman was not right in the head exactly.
00:02:53
Speaker 2: And so they began first with a friend of hers, a former coworker of Lindsay's, a labor and delivery nurse. For name was Margaret hamp and it was a quick Her time up on the stand was pretty quick. She just basically got on the record that Lindsay Clancy was the type of nurse you wanted to take care of you and your loved one. So she established basically just how kind and loving and caring Lindsay Clancy was. But then yes, her sister comes up Allison orzga ozga, excuse me, and talks about what she saw from her sister in Thanksgiving and then in December and then after New Year's and she describes her sister as beginning with a mood that didn't look good, where she seemed off. In December she seemed worse, depressed, talked about suicidal thoughts. But then after New Year's, after that hospital stay, she said she saw her sister seemingly starting to feel better, but then went on to say nope. At January, at Core's birthday party, she looked tired again. She was still struggling. But the prosecution was able to make a few points that were in their favor. They got her.
00:04:03
Speaker 3: Sister to admit that she told police.
00:04:06
Speaker 2: After the murders that Lindsey seemed to be doing okay and that her tone and texts seemed to be better.
00:04:15
Speaker 1: Then you would believe that in that I get what they're trying to do. The prosecution is trying to focus so much on a particular section of this woman's life leading up to the killings, where she seemed to be doing okay. That's all. I want you all to focus on the days that she seemed to be healthy. And yes, there were those days, and there were those days of her family seemed to recognize that she was doing better. But I get it, but it just isn't for me at least, and I don't know how for the juries. It's it's so overwhelming in the argument that it just doesn't stack up against the overwhelming years of history of this woman having problems. That there were like two weeks the prosecution wants me to focus on that she was doing a little better.
00:04:58
Speaker 2: And maybe she was doing better because she she had a plan in place in her psychosis, in her psychotic head. I mean, you could argue that that maybe you do start to calm down when you have a plan. You know, you're anxious when you don't know what to do. You're anxious when you're trying to look for answers. And then if you in a state of psychosis settle on a plan, maybe that did make her seem okay and better because she knew what she was going to do.
00:05:19
Speaker 1: See, we were sitting here as potential jurors, you know, trying to hash this out. Well maybe this was it, Well maybe this it's just not so there is nothing that makes me think this woman was okay, even when she was seemingly doing okay for the day or two or three or four a week or whatever. Agreed, There's nothing that goes yeah, wow, it sounds like she was cured.
00:05:39
Speaker 3: No, agreed. Yes.
00:05:41
Speaker 2: So then mom gets up Paula Musgrove, And this was emotional. She talked about her daughter being a good kid, a good student, a great, loving, caring mother, said she always wanted to be a mother.
00:05:52
Speaker 3: She was one.
00:05:53
Speaker 2: I've talked about these women and I know them and I love them in my life, and I'm in awe of them. They literally grow up way and wanting to become mothers.
00:06:02
Speaker 3: And that was how she described her daughter.
00:06:05
Speaker 2: And she talked about being a grandmother and said it was the most beautiful thing she's ever experienced in her life and that she loved those little kids with all her heart. And it was emotional, and it choked me up, it choked her up. And I do think that that was an important moment because this was a woman who's on the stand defending Lindsey Clancy, who loved those kids more than anyone in that room, maybe even as much as perhaps Lindsay Clancy herself. But that speaks to the jury her motive. She loved those little kids. If anybody would want justice for those little kids, you would think it would be Paula Musgrove.
00:06:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, that works, And now you've just explained it. I wondered how it was going to go. It was awkward, uncomfortable at times, just the idea of the prosecution cross examining the mom, the idea of the prosecution that has been for weeks now, dismissing any idea that the woman was sick, right, dismissing any idea that Lindsay Clancy is anything other than the calculated, premeditated, cold blood and murder of her own children.
00:07:12
Speaker 3: Who was selfish and wanted to take her kids with her.
00:07:15
Speaker 1: So Rova, I mean, this is best you could hope for in the cross examination, I suppose. I don't know. If it got go, I wouldn't describe it as contentious necessarily, but it was just awkward, just by the nature of the two people that had to talk to each other.
00:07:29
Speaker 3: It was It's uncomfortable.
00:07:31
Speaker 2: It's awkward because a lot of this testimony was about these texts that went on between Lindsay Clancy's mom, Paula and Lindsay Clancy. And look, she did talk about that in December with Patrick present. She told us she had thoughts of harming the children. She talked about Lindsay losing a bunch of weight and becoming paranoid about illogical things. And I think one of the things that jumped out during the direct questioning was Paula said that her daughter asked her please come stay with me, and she went for a week, and she told her it's just really scary.
00:08:05
Speaker 3: I don't want to be alone.
00:08:06
Speaker 2: And she said there was one night that was actually the most disturbing in December when she asked if she could sleep in the same bed as her mom.
00:08:14
Speaker 3: Like that's how scared she was.
00:08:16
Speaker 2: I mean that a grown woman wanting to sleep in bed with mommy that speaks volumes.
00:08:23
Speaker 1: That stuff spoke to me more than more than anything else. Robes and Patrick testified to it as well. The ex husband. Now, but to hear the mom somebody else confirm that she had a thought about harming her children, Robes to hear that from now two witnesses, it's overwhelmingly just beating down any narrative that the prosecution is kind of presenting like she was so this was part of her plan.
00:09:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's she's telling her husband and her.
00:09:06
Speaker 1: Mom a month, a month and a half.
00:09:07
Speaker 3: Yah, she has thoughts of harming her kids.
00:09:10
Speaker 2: Why would you do that to set up your defense before you do that. That's really hard to believe, like exceptionally hard to believe.
00:09:17
Speaker 1: It's more reasonable to think that this is a woman who was genuinely scared about something happening to her and she didn't understand what it was, and she didn't know who to talk to and how to she didn't know how to manage. Is the more reasonable story to me right now?
00:09:32
Speaker 2: Ro Absolutely, And look that awkward cross examination. I don't think it really landed because yes, they got her to admit that. Or read about this text where she says, nice to see you doing better, and I believe that was the day of or the day before the murders, and the mom put it like this, this was not really about my observation of my daughter. It was more meant to encourage her rather than discourage her, Like she had a better day and I wanted to encourage her to keep having better days. So it was nice to see you doing better. It didn't mean that she was suddenly doing better. That made a lot of sense to me, a lot of sense to me.
00:10:10
Speaker 1: Any argument the prizecues, it just that's negated. Nothing like, oh okay, and that makes sense. That sounds like exactly what a mom. If you're on that jur and you're a mom, you've done it. If you're on that gur and you have a mom, she's done it to you. Yes, right, everybody gets that, Like she knows you're not doing great, but she's telling you you're doing better. Like it.
00:10:29
Speaker 2: It's like a coach, just kind of like trying to get there, like just to encourage someone, to get them to see the bright side, to see that better days are ahead.
00:10:39
Speaker 3: That all makes sense.
00:10:40
Speaker 2: So yes, any notion that somehow Lindsay's mom was noticing that her daughter was suddenly doing better, she did a very good job explaining that. And I don't think the prosecution's cross had any impact whatsoever on jurors, at least it didn't for me.
00:10:56
Speaker 1: I'm amazed. I'm stopping here kind of because you just triggered this thought. I am amazed at how many people don't want to hear anything about this woman other than she's a monster. She's the devil. There is no defense out there, there's nothing to talk about, nothing to discuss like she is. And those who question or might be open to this idea of psychosis, we're all idiots. You're all stupid. You're like, I've seen a pretty vile conversation that I didn't realize I started reading about. I don't know why I took a deep dive this morning, but I was really really surprised that just how many folks see nothing but oh don't want to hear anything else.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: Now.
00:11:42
Speaker 1: I don't know how much they've read into it, what her defense is, but if you hear woman strangles five year old, three year old, eight month old, you're going to react. And I guess much of that is just nobody's open to any other interpretation of that robes. But I was surprised. I'm just stopping there because you were as we were discussing what sounds reasonable. Frankly, it doesn't at all sound even pausible or should be even considered to a lot of people think.
00:12:12
Speaker 3: But it just must be folks.
00:12:16
Speaker 2: Unwillingness to accept mental illness as a defense, because it's.
00:12:22
Speaker 3: Interesting that you point that out.
00:12:23
Speaker 2: I didn't realize there was that big of a drumbeat on that side of things, but I do. I was trying to get into the psychology of that, and I do think it's scary to think that that type of behavior could exist in all of us if we were under the a certain type of stress, if we had a certain predisposition for mental illness.
00:12:44
Speaker 3: That's just a scary thought.
00:12:45
Speaker 2: It's better to just say she's the outlier, she's a monster, she's evil, versus this is a mental illness that could happen to other women. That's a scary thought to even entertain. So people just want to I do believe that generally speaking, a lot of people just want their to be good people and bad people, evil and good, and that just makes you feel safe and structured in the world.
00:13:06
Speaker 3: And it's hard. I think mental illness.
00:13:09
Speaker 2: Anyone who struggled with it has struggled with the perception of them if they've suffered with any kind of mental illness, and this might just be yes the worst case scenario possible, but it's hard for people to understand and accept.
00:13:25
Speaker 1: We can't see ourselves or the people we love in her, so we have to make her an outlier. Yet, right, it's not possible that we could overlook signs and symptoms. It's impossible that we could ever fall victim to what she did. She must be different, she must be evil, Like you said, Yeah, man, it's I was really surprised.
00:13:50
Speaker 3: It's not.
00:13:50
Speaker 1: You can believe differently, you can believe. Well, I still think she's responded like there is just a fierce like you all for even considering something wow, evil and there's nothing else to talk about.
00:14:01
Speaker 2: It'll be interesting to see if any jurors feel that same way. Well, when we come back, we're going to talk about the defense's final witness of the day. Yes, they are starting to roll out their own medical experts. Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. The defense put up their final witness of the day. They're medical expert doctor Michael Wolfovich. He's an emergency doctor. And this was an attempt to buy the defense to again try to prove that yes, Lindsay Clancy in fact did genuinely try to kill herself, despite what the prosecution has claimed that it was some sort of fake attempt to make it look like she was trying to commit suicide. So their expert got up and he interpreted Lindsay Clancy's medical records and refute some of what the prosecution's medical experts testified too. He said, instead of those superficial wounds that we've been hearing so much about, that Clancy had full thickness lacerations and there were observed hesitation wounds, which is a hallmark for people who try to die by suicide, cutting their wrists, cutting her neck and that was effective, and then also went into the spinal fractures. Just how much she was injured. We all can see her in the wheelchair. We all know she can't use her legs. To me, that's the most obvious part of her lasting injuries. That are just a reserve as a constant reminder to me that, yes, this woman jumped out of a window in an attempt to enter life.
00:15:45
Speaker 1: How do you combat that. The prosecution is saying that was a fake suicide attempt and the woman is over there in a wheelchair.
00:15:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, who wants to not die by suicide but instead wants to live in a wheelchair? Like?
00:16:02
Speaker 3: Who?
00:16:02
Speaker 2: Like, that's nothing anyone would choose, and that would be a really stupid plan. It makes that to me is the biggest, most glaring piece of evidence. It's literally sitting in the courtroom in front of the jurors each and every day.
00:16:15
Speaker 1: They've gone pretty hard on that theory too, about the fake suicide attempt, spider manning down the walls, a line we'll never forget from this strike.
00:16:22
Speaker 2: Right right, and so yes, he confirmed also that Lindsay Clancy, Yes, went into cardiac arrest and it took two rounds to resuscitate her. She died in the hospital that night, so she needed blood, she had to be resuscitated. All of that was brought home for jurors by this witness. Now there was not time for cross examination. That will begin today when court resumes at nine am. The judge announced to the jurors there will be another full day of testimony. They were sent home around three o'clock yesterday afternoon. They seem to have really nice working hours. Nine am to three pm is about as long of a day as these jurors have had so far.
00:17:00
Speaker 1: And then unexpected breaks, see this comes out. You know, we're gonna hed you home the rest of It's a lot of that been going on. Actually, there has there has been some it's been a very.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Disruptive. But yeah, it's like starting and stopping, starting and stopping. So look, and we expect the defense to be putting up a bunch of medical experts. Also, by the way, the defense is still trying to voidere that TikToker who they want to get up on the stand, and that could happen today as well outside of the jury. But the judge is going to allow the defense and the prosecution to question this witness who once worked at the hospital that Lindsey Clancy admitted herself to in January around New Year's Day for those five days, to talk about how it isn't the five star medical facility that the prosecution has put on for the jury, that it's quite the opposite, that it's understaffed and it's not and it's not some wonderful place where mothers who are suffering from postpart of depression and can recover. So we'll see if that witness went to TikTok I'm explaining about this hospital, who's clearly been watching the trial, if she will actually end up getting to testify in front of the jury.
00:18:13
Speaker 1: It was like a stretch to me, baby, to let this person up on the stand and we'll see.
00:18:17
Speaker 3: We shall see.
00:18:18
Speaker 2: We will be watching, and we always appreciate you listening to us. Everyone, I maybe Roebuck alongside TJ.
00:18:24
Speaker 3: Holmes. We will talk soon.