Sept. 4, 2026
Killer Mom Trial: Inquiry Expected Into One Holdout Juror Before Day 7 Of Deliberations
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RSS Feed It’s anyone’s guess what may happen when court resumes at 9am in the triple murder trial of Lindsay Clancy. We heard from Clancy’s attorney, Kevin Reddington, that the judge will first hold an inquiry into the juror identified for refusing to follow the judge’s instructions on reasonable doubt. Depending on how that goes, jurors are then expected to resume deliberations for the seventh day, up against the timeline of a holiday weekend.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.
00:00:02
Speaker 2: It is Friday, September 4th, and we are expecting potentially more fireworks right from the start of day seven of deliberations in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. With that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. They're coming back to court at nine, but we don't expect them to go right back into court. the deliberation room and start up again. Got some business to tend to.
00:00:27
Speaker 1: Yes, this is all according to Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, who, when he left the courtroom yesterday, announced to reporters that at 9 a.m. there will be an inquiry into the juror He said that this juror has been identified as the juror the foreperson was referring to when they passed that note saying that someone was refusing to follow the judge's instructions on reasonable doubt.
00:00:57
Speaker 2: Yes, so when we left, though, Robes, the last we saw in open court yesterday was the judge specifically stating that he was denying Reddington's motion to have this juror removed. We thought that was it, and that's how the day wrapped up. And day seven, deliberation is going to start. Robes, we've only gotten this from Reddington. The court hasn't officially said this yet. I don't think he just BS. So what is exactly going to happen?
00:01:24
Speaker 1: And that is a huge question because, yes, when the judge dismissed the jury yesterday around 4 p.m., he said, we'll see you back here at 9 a.m. to begin deliberation. So it seemed like everything was all systems go. And look, Reddington even acknowledged when he made this announcement to reporters that that he hoped the inquiry would take place in open court and not in a sidebar, because he wants the process to be seen by the public. He wants it to be transparent. But it's unclear if it's going to be in open court or in a sidebar, and frankly, whether or not it's going to happen at all, because we just haven't gotten official word from the court.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Why an inquiry if the judge has already said, I'm not going to dismiss this juror? What do we need to look into? And then to call this person out in court. Open court, possibly, Robes. Yes, we won't get a chance to see this person, but everybody in that courtroom will. What's that going to feel like? What's that pressure going to be? This does feel like it's developing into a situation where everybody is looking at this one juror and telling you need to get on board and vote this way. Or there are others are saying you need to hold firm. Robes, this is getting messier.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: It is. So it will be fascinating to see what happens at 9 a.m. because this jury has been deliberating for about 36 and a half hours over six days. That is a long time. And we don't know if this dynamic has just developed, this 11 to 1 dynamic, or if it's been like this the entire time. It will be fascinating. Usually at least one or two, a couple of jurors end up talking afterwards. Oh, yeah. especially in a case like this. There'll be some persuasive journalist who will get at least one or a few of these jurors to talk.
00:03:11
Speaker 2: And sometimes, Rose, they're chomping at the bit. Sometimes they can't wait to come out and talk and get deals sometimes. That stuff does happen. Not saying that's going to happen, but Rose.
00:03:18
Speaker 1: Book deals, et cetera.
00:03:19
Speaker 2: But if they get the scrutiny that they know they're getting right now, maybe they want to come out and clear things up.
00:03:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they might not know, but I think they have a pretty good idea of just how big of a deal this is. They've seen, even we've been surprised at how much media has just been accosting Kevin Reddington when he walks out of the courtroom. And it's been growing and growing each day. He should use a podium. Yeah, he should use a podium.
00:03:44
Speaker 2: Come on, Kevin.
00:03:44
Speaker 1: It's actually getting dangerous.
00:03:46
Speaker 2: Yes, it is.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: We saw journalists potentially getting injured or feeling faint. in the scuffle, scrum, whatever you want to call it. But those jurors, as we now know, after that lovely woman, Dawn Light, tried to take video of them, they exit from a different area, a different parking lot. But I'm sure they're aware when they pull in about what kind of media attention this case is drawing.
00:04:09
Speaker 2: And their families are telling them when they go home.
00:04:11
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:04:12
Speaker 2: That's just the way it is. And nobody's saying that's wrong or could influence how they deliberate. But it could. But you know what?
00:04:20
Speaker 1: Also think about this. We're sitting here in New York, glued to the TV, fascinated. And imagine though, if that was your town, your community, Plymouth, Massachusetts. Now that has to be all anybody is talking about. And I also just have to think if they don't reach a conclusion today, there are plenty of different outcomes with this jurors' fate hanging in the balance, whether or not they have to bring in another juror, start deliberations over again. If they can continue with this same juror, will this juror be more willing to listen to the majority? All of those things are up in the air. But if for some reason there isn't some sort of conclusion at the end of the day today, Labor Day weekend, you're going off with family and friends, you're at barbecues, you're.
00:05:07
Speaker 2: At parties, everybody's going to tell you you're a.
00:05:09
Speaker 1: Juror on the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. What is that situation going to be like? You can't tell me that you'd have to like, you'd have to cancel your plans because there'd be no other conversation except for that one.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Cause everybody would be telling you what to do, how to vote, what to do. That's tough. And you know, they can't say a word and they, I bet they do take that seriously. Because this would blow up the whole process at this point.
00:05:34
Speaker 1: So you, After committing that much time, that much emotion, that much energy, I would have to think these folks are invested in the outcome. And yeah, they don't want to do anything to screw it up at this point after all that time.
00:05:47
Speaker 2: So Robes, yesterday, yes, we ended up with fireworks at the end of the day. A lot of those fireworks were relayed to us by reporters in the room once they had, again, yesterday, how the day wrapped up was them getting a note from the jury that said, they didn't say we're deadlocked. They said, we got one person in here who refuses to follow the judge's instructions. So This turned into an hour-long situation in the courtroom where he brought in every single juror, asked them a question, and sent them back. Essentially asked them, can you follow my instructions? Asked them under oath. If they swear yes, that should be the end of it. Kevin Reddington wasn't trying to hear that.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: No. And he was emphatic. He wanted that juror removed. He felt very passionate about the fact that if the foreperson sent a note saying this juror would not follow the judge's instructions, that's a clear violation. And that is the reason why there are alternates. And I think there are six alternates. I didn't realize there were that many. So there have been six people who have sat through all of that evidence. And while they were listening to it, they had no idea they weren't actually going to be deliberating. But they have now been in another room sitting there for all these days and just waiting to see if they too might be included in the deliberation process. So they have options. It's just whether or not the judge will decide to take one.
00:07:07
Speaker 2: Robes, what do you do here? What does this judge do? Robes, this seems wrong. It feels wrong that 11 people can almost, they're almost telling the one that you're doing something wrong by not voting with us. That's not how it's supposed to work. I'm just saying it feels that way.
00:07:28
Speaker 1: So they report it.
00:07:30
Speaker 2: They report that this person isn't following instructions. What does that mean? Refuses to listen, refuses to do what we think this person should be doing, refuses. What does that mean? If this person has this vote after listening to this trial, That vote should count. That's supposed to be the end of it. All this ropes feels like pressure. They're being called out.
00:07:51
Speaker 1: Isn't that the whole point, though? It's so fascinating, our concept of what justice is and how juries work. And really, it is the art of negotiating. I mean, you almost never have a unanimous vote from the onset. So there is a form of persuasion that goes on in these juror rooms.
00:08:14
Speaker 2: This is one, Robes, that we are getting a little more insight into while it's happening. I'm sure what you're talking. Yeah, of course. But I think we would all kind of agree that most trials we watch, we think generally juries get it right more than they get it wrong. That's how we feel. They usually get it right more than they get it wrong. Not all the time in some high profile ones. But Robes, it feels like this person is being talked about like they're doing something wrong because you're not letting us get the outcome we want.
00:08:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we don't know. Maybe this person said something very outrageous and outlandish.
00:08:45
Speaker 2: I'm saying what it feels like. I'm saying from what we know right now, there is pressure being put on one person because they won't go along with the majority. We don't know why that is. This person might genuinely, Robes, isn't it possible, is genuinely... has their conviction about this case. That's okay. It's supposed to be. But now Kevin Reddington is going after this person like they're doing something wrong. Get him off, this person off, so we can get somebody on. They'll vote the way with the other 11. That feels wrong, baby. That's what it.
00:09:19
Speaker 1: Feels like, but that's not what they're saying. They're not saying it's because he won't vote with us. It's because they're saying this person is refusing to follow the instructions.
00:09:26
Speaker 2: Say it out loud again.
00:09:27
Speaker 1: I just don't know what that person said.
00:09:29
Speaker 2: No, but I'm saying, babe, what you're saying, you can say that all day long, but the point is, They're not voting with us. We're not mad at this person because they're over there and just saying, oh, I don't want to follow instructions. No, you're saying it's 11 to 1 and the 1 is the problem with us. That's what I'm talking about, Robes.
00:09:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker 2: What 11 people in there want to get the hell out for the weekend. They can decide, man, you ain't doing what we want you to do. Man, you ain't. We don't think you're following the instruction. It feels like they're ganging up on a 1. I don't know. Maybe they're in there causing hell. I'll leave room for that. But we also have to leave room for, Robes, just frustration and pressure now. And to the point we're talking about, get this person off so we can get somebody on that maybe, it feels like we want somebody here who will agree with us so we can go home.
00:10:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just don't know what goes on in that room.
00:10:21
Speaker 2: That part sucks. It feels that way. I hate that. Because if that was my life on the line and I had one person in there willing to not send me to prison, you want to kick them off because y'all want to go home? No, I want that juror. That's what I'm saying. It feels like we're building up to that now. And it doesn't feel right.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is the process. We're watching our legal system at work.
00:10:46
Speaker 2: I don't want to see the sausage. I don't want to say how it's being made. Just give me the verdict, but don't give me all this mess. But you're right. My fate is in a negotiation if I'm on trial.
00:10:57
Speaker 1: I mean, that is the whole concept behind a jury of 12. And yes, it is fascinating to see how it all works. And I am interested in seeing how the sausage is made. I cannot wait to hear from these jurors when they come out. I can't wait to hear what was actually going on. for all of these six days, and now, yes, a seventh day. I can't wait.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: Just give me the sausage, man. I don't want to see the process. I don't want to see it. But, folks, what did you say? I kept asking you seven times this morning. What's the official 36?
00:11:29
Speaker 1: 3622, I believe, is what it is.
00:11:31
Speaker 2: So we're talking about 36 and a half hours of negotiation. Now, Rose, when we first started this, very early on, after a couple days, we started giving comparisons to this trial went this long, this trial went this long. We thought it would never get as close. to some of the longer deliberation times. Stay here, folks. We will tell you just how close this case is now coming to be one of the longest deliberations we've seen in some of the highest profile cases.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ. Yes, we will round probably at least 37, 38 hours of deliberations here for this jury if you consider the fact that, well, they go into deliberations sometime after this alleged inquiry happens.
00:12:26
Speaker 2: We have no idea how long it's going to take.
00:12:28
Speaker 1: We have no idea if the inquiry is happening, how long the inquiry will take. If it happens in public court or if it happens, or I say open court, or if it happens in a sidebar, and then we don't know at what point the jury will then be allowed to deliberate with said juror or a new juror. Unclear.
00:12:48
Speaker 2: And again, is there a requirement, babe? Once you throw a new juror in there, can the new one come in and say, hey, how y'all vote? You know what? I'm with that. Let's get out of here. Can you do that? Are you required? There's no minimum amount of time.
00:12:59
Speaker 1: Oh, no. They can spend 30 minutes and do one vote.
00:13:02
Speaker 2: Who knows?
00:13:02
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine those jurors, those alternate jurors, already know what their vote is. They've sat through all the evidence. So they already know. So they would probably initially just say, hey, what's your vote? And then it could be, look, that they all agree and we could get out of here right away. There's just so many different possible scenarios. No way of knowing.
00:13:24
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
00:13:25
Speaker 1: But man, it's Friday and it's Labor Day weekend. And so, yes. there is going to be some just inherent pressure for that reason alone.
00:13:34
Speaker 2: Wasn't Diddy up against the.
00:13:35
Speaker 1: Fourth of July, right?
00:13:36
Speaker 2: They got out of there in time, right?
00:13:37
Speaker 1: Yes, they did. Yes, they did.
00:13:39
Speaker 2: Was that the day before the weekend?
00:13:41
Speaker 1: I believe it was.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: Damn. Okay, so here we go. So maybe we'll see that. I didn't think Groves, the one we kept comparing to, Andrew Yates. This was the comparable trial. So many people, oh, how long did that one go? Yeah, it went 12 hours over three days.
00:13:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems a lot more reasonable.
00:13:57
Speaker 2: Blown past that now.
00:13:59
Speaker 1: The one that I think I didn't realize that Bill Cosby's trial took that long. Six days, but 52 hours. So they were willing to put in longer days than this jury. I was surprised, honestly, yesterday after that note and after all of that drama to send them back to the deliberations room. to deliberations and they only stayed in there for like 20 30 minutes like i would have then it must have meant that that dude didn't or i say dude we don't know if it's a woman or a man that's ridiculous more likely statistically it's a woman but i don't know why i think it's a man that's so funny oh my goodness why i don't know it seems like something a man would.
00:14:40
Speaker 2: Do what stick to his opinion that's like something a woman would do That's so funny. I don't know why. Not be pressured by anybody?
00:14:48
Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh, see, I just think a woman would cave more. Like, okay, I'll just go with the group. I don't know. With other women, for one woman to stand out against the other women and the men, that seems more like a man thing to do.
00:15:03
Speaker 2: Okay, stay with me for a minute. I'm fascinated. So it's possible there are nine women and two men going against one man. Yes. Or there are eight women and three men going against one woman.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: That seems.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: Is that the scenario?
00:15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I could be so wrong.
00:15:25
Speaker 2: I fully.
00:15:26
Speaker 1: I don't know why my gut tells me it's a man who's the holdout.
00:15:29
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
00:15:30
Speaker 1: Your gut tells you it's a woman?
00:15:32
Speaker 2: I don't know. Overwhelmingly, though, there is going to be a collection. A majority of women are... Making their case against this one person. So it's eight or nine women.
00:15:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
00:15:43
Speaker 2: That's a lot to go against.
00:15:44
Speaker 1: And we tend to, I don't know, yes, there can be infighting initially, but I feel like we tend to coalesce. I don't know. I could be wrong.
00:15:53
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this last thing. I did not plan to discuss this with you. Who is more likely to cave to the pressure of eight or nine women? A man or a woman. Another woman. Another woman is more likely.
00:16:07
Speaker 1: That's what I think.
00:16:08
Speaker 2: That's why I think it's a man in there.
00:16:09
Speaker 1: That's why I think it's a man. But like, look, I could be so wrong.
00:16:13
Speaker 2: Fully.
00:16:13
Speaker 1: It's just I don't know. You do have a feeling.
00:16:16
Speaker 2: Now that you're talking about this. Sounds a man.
00:16:20
Speaker 1: Arrogance.
00:16:20
Speaker 2: I ain't gonna listen. You can't tell me nothing.
00:16:23
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:16:23
Speaker 2: Or somebody set in their ways, an older person perhaps.
00:16:26
Speaker 1: That was my other thing. I either think it's a man or it's somebody who is older.
00:16:31
Speaker 2: Do we have a racial breakdown? I saw it somewhere.
00:16:34
Speaker 1: I saw someone say that they're mostly white. That's all I got. Mostly white. Look, this is the Massachusetts, Boston area. It's predominantly white, Italian, Catholic. That is the majority of the makeup of that area, demographically speaking. But I do think it's either someone who is older... Or it's a man.
00:16:54
Speaker 2: It's going to end up being like a young black woman.
00:16:56
Speaker 1: Right.
00:16:57
Speaker 2: What the hell?
00:16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or it's somebody who has a very different. experience or life lens that they're looking through.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: We could have done a whole episode on that. That is fascinating to think. Who is it? Which one? Is it more likely a man or woman?
00:17:11
Speaker 1: What kind of a person? Yeah, it feels so strongly and holds firm. I'm telling you, I feel like that's why you might feel so protective of this person because if there were to be a holdout, you would be that person and you would hang a jury if you disagreed. you could not be convinced. Yeah, I'm just saying if you felt very strongly in your beliefs, you're not somebody who would go over to the other side. I absolutely would. I think I could be convinced. I'm like, okay.
00:17:40
Speaker 2: You've heard it from me a million times. I would be sitting in the corner of the room. I could do this all day.
00:17:43
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:17:44
Speaker 2: I could do this all day, guys.
00:17:45
Speaker 1: And I think that's why you're so, you feel, it's funny how fiercely, passionately you are protecting this person's right to be different.
00:17:55
Speaker 2: Yes, because that's the system. It's the system.
00:17:59
Speaker 1: And the system also allows for apparent pressure to be applied.
00:18:03
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm saying. Okay, all of that, we're in 100% on par with. I'm saying a narrative is now developing that suggests they are wrong in what they believe. That we need somebody on there who is in line with the rest. We need somebody on there. It's almost like politics. We all have to be in line in this room. If not, kick you out and talk about you. That's the part. There's a narrative that's developing that suggests this person is something beyond just having an opinion.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah. What?
00:18:39
Speaker 2: Charles Manson, 42 hours, nine days. Rodney King, cops. That was seven days, 40 plus hours of deliberations. The Karen Reid trial. Again, we've been talking about this one. That was 22 hours over five days. I didn't think there was a chance this jury was going to get close to the Michael Jackson jury. It surpassed it.
00:18:56
Speaker 1: 32 hours, seven days. Yeah. So we shall see what the final count is. And we can only hope that maybe today is the day there is some sort of outcome. Otherwise, we got to wait till Tuesday and those poor jurors got to cancel all their barbecue plans.
00:19:14
Speaker 2: You have me fascinated now by whether it's a man or a woman. There's a whole lot. I didn't think about it before we started. Now this is all that's on my mind. Folks, we are keeping an eye. Keep an eye on our feed. We will be watching at 9 o'clock. We'll update you when that news comes. But we appreciate you as always sticking with us. I'm TJ. That's Robes. We will talk to you very soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks.
00:00:02
Speaker 2: It is Friday, September 4th, and we are expecting potentially more fireworks right from the start of day seven of deliberations in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. With that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. They're coming back to court at nine, but we don't expect them to go right back into court. the deliberation room and start up again. Got some business to tend to.
00:00:27
Speaker 1: Yes, this is all according to Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, who, when he left the courtroom yesterday, announced to reporters that at 9 a.m. there will be an inquiry into the juror He said that this juror has been identified as the juror the foreperson was referring to when they passed that note saying that someone was refusing to follow the judge's instructions on reasonable doubt.
00:00:57
Speaker 2: Yes, so when we left, though, Robes, the last we saw in open court yesterday was the judge specifically stating that he was denying Reddington's motion to have this juror removed. We thought that was it, and that's how the day wrapped up. And day seven, deliberation is going to start. Robes, we've only gotten this from Reddington. The court hasn't officially said this yet. I don't think he just BS. So what is exactly going to happen?
00:01:24
Speaker 1: And that is a huge question because, yes, when the judge dismissed the jury yesterday around 4 p.m., he said, we'll see you back here at 9 a.m. to begin deliberation. So it seemed like everything was all systems go. And look, Reddington even acknowledged when he made this announcement to reporters that that he hoped the inquiry would take place in open court and not in a sidebar, because he wants the process to be seen by the public. He wants it to be transparent. But it's unclear if it's going to be in open court or in a sidebar, and frankly, whether or not it's going to happen at all, because we just haven't gotten official word from the court.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Why an inquiry if the judge has already said, I'm not going to dismiss this juror? What do we need to look into? And then to call this person out in court. Open court, possibly, Robes. Yes, we won't get a chance to see this person, but everybody in that courtroom will. What's that going to feel like? What's that pressure going to be? This does feel like it's developing into a situation where everybody is looking at this one juror and telling you need to get on board and vote this way. Or there are others are saying you need to hold firm. Robes, this is getting messier.
00:02:35
Speaker 1: It is. So it will be fascinating to see what happens at 9 a.m. because this jury has been deliberating for about 36 and a half hours over six days. That is a long time. And we don't know if this dynamic has just developed, this 11 to 1 dynamic, or if it's been like this the entire time. It will be fascinating. Usually at least one or two, a couple of jurors end up talking afterwards. Oh, yeah. especially in a case like this. There'll be some persuasive journalist who will get at least one or a few of these jurors to talk.
00:03:11
Speaker 2: And sometimes, Rose, they're chomping at the bit. Sometimes they can't wait to come out and talk and get deals sometimes. That stuff does happen. Not saying that's going to happen, but Rose.
00:03:18
Speaker 1: Book deals, et cetera.
00:03:19
Speaker 2: But if they get the scrutiny that they know they're getting right now, maybe they want to come out and clear things up.
00:03:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they might not know, but I think they have a pretty good idea of just how big of a deal this is. They've seen, even we've been surprised at how much media has just been accosting Kevin Reddington when he walks out of the courtroom. And it's been growing and growing each day. He should use a podium. Yeah, he should use a podium.
00:03:44
Speaker 2: Come on, Kevin.
00:03:44
Speaker 1: It's actually getting dangerous.
00:03:46
Speaker 2: Yes, it is.
00:03:46
Speaker 1: We saw journalists potentially getting injured or feeling faint. in the scuffle, scrum, whatever you want to call it. But those jurors, as we now know, after that lovely woman, Dawn Light, tried to take video of them, they exit from a different area, a different parking lot. But I'm sure they're aware when they pull in about what kind of media attention this case is drawing.
00:04:09
Speaker 2: And their families are telling them when they go home.
00:04:11
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
00:04:12
Speaker 2: That's just the way it is. And nobody's saying that's wrong or could influence how they deliberate. But it could. But you know what?
00:04:20
Speaker 1: Also think about this. We're sitting here in New York, glued to the TV, fascinated. And imagine though, if that was your town, your community, Plymouth, Massachusetts. Now that has to be all anybody is talking about. And I also just have to think if they don't reach a conclusion today, there are plenty of different outcomes with this jurors' fate hanging in the balance, whether or not they have to bring in another juror, start deliberations over again. If they can continue with this same juror, will this juror be more willing to listen to the majority? All of those things are up in the air. But if for some reason there isn't some sort of conclusion at the end of the day today, Labor Day weekend, you're going off with family and friends, you're at barbecues, you're.
00:05:07
Speaker 2: At parties, everybody's going to tell you you're a.
00:05:09
Speaker 1: Juror on the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. What is that situation going to be like? You can't tell me that you'd have to like, you'd have to cancel your plans because there'd be no other conversation except for that one.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Cause everybody would be telling you what to do, how to vote, what to do. That's tough. And you know, they can't say a word and they, I bet they do take that seriously. Because this would blow up the whole process at this point.
00:05:34
Speaker 1: So you, After committing that much time, that much emotion, that much energy, I would have to think these folks are invested in the outcome. And yeah, they don't want to do anything to screw it up at this point after all that time.
00:05:47
Speaker 2: So Robes, yesterday, yes, we ended up with fireworks at the end of the day. A lot of those fireworks were relayed to us by reporters in the room once they had, again, yesterday, how the day wrapped up was them getting a note from the jury that said, they didn't say we're deadlocked. They said, we got one person in here who refuses to follow the judge's instructions. So This turned into an hour-long situation in the courtroom where he brought in every single juror, asked them a question, and sent them back. Essentially asked them, can you follow my instructions? Asked them under oath. If they swear yes, that should be the end of it. Kevin Reddington wasn't trying to hear that.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: No. And he was emphatic. He wanted that juror removed. He felt very passionate about the fact that if the foreperson sent a note saying this juror would not follow the judge's instructions, that's a clear violation. And that is the reason why there are alternates. And I think there are six alternates. I didn't realize there were that many. So there have been six people who have sat through all of that evidence. And while they were listening to it, they had no idea they weren't actually going to be deliberating. But they have now been in another room sitting there for all these days and just waiting to see if they too might be included in the deliberation process. So they have options. It's just whether or not the judge will decide to take one.
00:07:07
Speaker 2: Robes, what do you do here? What does this judge do? Robes, this seems wrong. It feels wrong that 11 people can almost, they're almost telling the one that you're doing something wrong by not voting with us. That's not how it's supposed to work. I'm just saying it feels that way.
00:07:28
Speaker 1: So they report it.
00:07:30
Speaker 2: They report that this person isn't following instructions. What does that mean? Refuses to listen, refuses to do what we think this person should be doing, refuses. What does that mean? If this person has this vote after listening to this trial, That vote should count. That's supposed to be the end of it. All this ropes feels like pressure. They're being called out.
00:07:51
Speaker 1: Isn't that the whole point, though? It's so fascinating, our concept of what justice is and how juries work. And really, it is the art of negotiating. I mean, you almost never have a unanimous vote from the onset. So there is a form of persuasion that goes on in these juror rooms.
00:08:14
Speaker 2: This is one, Robes, that we are getting a little more insight into while it's happening. I'm sure what you're talking. Yeah, of course. But I think we would all kind of agree that most trials we watch, we think generally juries get it right more than they get it wrong. That's how we feel. They usually get it right more than they get it wrong. Not all the time in some high profile ones. But Robes, it feels like this person is being talked about like they're doing something wrong because you're not letting us get the outcome we want.
00:08:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we don't know. Maybe this person said something very outrageous and outlandish.
00:08:45
Speaker 2: I'm saying what it feels like. I'm saying from what we know right now, there is pressure being put on one person because they won't go along with the majority. We don't know why that is. This person might genuinely, Robes, isn't it possible, is genuinely... has their conviction about this case. That's okay. It's supposed to be. But now Kevin Reddington is going after this person like they're doing something wrong. Get him off, this person off, so we can get somebody on. They'll vote the way with the other 11. That feels wrong, baby. That's what it.
00:09:19
Speaker 1: Feels like, but that's not what they're saying. They're not saying it's because he won't vote with us. It's because they're saying this person is refusing to follow the instructions.
00:09:26
Speaker 2: Say it out loud again.
00:09:27
Speaker 1: I just don't know what that person said.
00:09:29
Speaker 2: No, but I'm saying, babe, what you're saying, you can say that all day long, but the point is, They're not voting with us. We're not mad at this person because they're over there and just saying, oh, I don't want to follow instructions. No, you're saying it's 11 to 1 and the 1 is the problem with us. That's what I'm talking about, Robes.
00:09:46
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker 2: What 11 people in there want to get the hell out for the weekend. They can decide, man, you ain't doing what we want you to do. Man, you ain't. We don't think you're following the instruction. It feels like they're ganging up on a 1. I don't know. Maybe they're in there causing hell. I'll leave room for that. But we also have to leave room for, Robes, just frustration and pressure now. And to the point we're talking about, get this person off so we can get somebody on that maybe, it feels like we want somebody here who will agree with us so we can go home.
00:10:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, we just don't know what goes on in that room.
00:10:21
Speaker 2: That part sucks. It feels that way. I hate that. Because if that was my life on the line and I had one person in there willing to not send me to prison, you want to kick them off because y'all want to go home? No, I want that juror. That's what I'm saying. It feels like we're building up to that now. And it doesn't feel right.
00:10:43
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is the process. We're watching our legal system at work.
00:10:46
Speaker 2: I don't want to see the sausage. I don't want to say how it's being made. Just give me the verdict, but don't give me all this mess. But you're right. My fate is in a negotiation if I'm on trial.
00:10:57
Speaker 1: I mean, that is the whole concept behind a jury of 12. And yes, it is fascinating to see how it all works. And I am interested in seeing how the sausage is made. I cannot wait to hear from these jurors when they come out. I can't wait to hear what was actually going on. for all of these six days, and now, yes, a seventh day. I can't wait.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: Just give me the sausage, man. I don't want to see the process. I don't want to see it. But, folks, what did you say? I kept asking you seven times this morning. What's the official 36?
00:11:29
Speaker 1: 3622, I believe, is what it is.
00:11:31
Speaker 2: So we're talking about 36 and a half hours of negotiation. Now, Rose, when we first started this, very early on, after a couple days, we started giving comparisons to this trial went this long, this trial went this long. We thought it would never get as close. to some of the longer deliberation times. Stay here, folks. We will tell you just how close this case is now coming to be one of the longest deliberations we've seen in some of the highest profile cases.
00:12:07
Speaker 1: Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ. Yes, we will round probably at least 37, 38 hours of deliberations here for this jury if you consider the fact that, well, they go into deliberations sometime after this alleged inquiry happens.
00:12:26
Speaker 2: We have no idea how long it's going to take.
00:12:28
Speaker 1: We have no idea if the inquiry is happening, how long the inquiry will take. If it happens in public court or if it happens, or I say open court, or if it happens in a sidebar, and then we don't know at what point the jury will then be allowed to deliberate with said juror or a new juror. Unclear.
00:12:48
Speaker 2: And again, is there a requirement, babe? Once you throw a new juror in there, can the new one come in and say, hey, how y'all vote? You know what? I'm with that. Let's get out of here. Can you do that? Are you required? There's no minimum amount of time.
00:12:59
Speaker 1: Oh, no. They can spend 30 minutes and do one vote.
00:13:02
Speaker 2: Who knows?
00:13:02
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine those jurors, those alternate jurors, already know what their vote is. They've sat through all the evidence. So they already know. So they would probably initially just say, hey, what's your vote? And then it could be, look, that they all agree and we could get out of here right away. There's just so many different possible scenarios. No way of knowing.
00:13:24
Speaker 2: That's crazy.
00:13:25
Speaker 1: But man, it's Friday and it's Labor Day weekend. And so, yes. there is going to be some just inherent pressure for that reason alone.
00:13:34
Speaker 2: Wasn't Diddy up against the.
00:13:35
Speaker 1: Fourth of July, right?
00:13:36
Speaker 2: They got out of there in time, right?
00:13:37
Speaker 1: Yes, they did. Yes, they did.
00:13:39
Speaker 2: Was that the day before the weekend?
00:13:41
Speaker 1: I believe it was.
00:13:41
Speaker 2: Damn. Okay, so here we go. So maybe we'll see that. I didn't think Groves, the one we kept comparing to, Andrew Yates. This was the comparable trial. So many people, oh, how long did that one go? Yeah, it went 12 hours over three days.
00:13:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, that seems a lot more reasonable.
00:13:57
Speaker 2: Blown past that now.
00:13:59
Speaker 1: The one that I think I didn't realize that Bill Cosby's trial took that long. Six days, but 52 hours. So they were willing to put in longer days than this jury. I was surprised, honestly, yesterday after that note and after all of that drama to send them back to the deliberations room. to deliberations and they only stayed in there for like 20 30 minutes like i would have then it must have meant that that dude didn't or i say dude we don't know if it's a woman or a man that's ridiculous more likely statistically it's a woman but i don't know why i think it's a man that's so funny oh my goodness why i don't know it seems like something a man would.
00:14:40
Speaker 2: Do what stick to his opinion that's like something a woman would do That's so funny. I don't know why. Not be pressured by anybody?
00:14:48
Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh, see, I just think a woman would cave more. Like, okay, I'll just go with the group. I don't know. With other women, for one woman to stand out against the other women and the men, that seems more like a man thing to do.
00:15:03
Speaker 2: Okay, stay with me for a minute. I'm fascinated. So it's possible there are nine women and two men going against one man. Yes. Or there are eight women and three men going against one woman.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: That seems.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: Is that the scenario?
00:15:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I could be so wrong.
00:15:25
Speaker 2: I fully.
00:15:26
Speaker 1: I don't know why my gut tells me it's a man who's the holdout.
00:15:29
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
00:15:30
Speaker 1: Your gut tells you it's a woman?
00:15:32
Speaker 2: I don't know. Overwhelmingly, though, there is going to be a collection. A majority of women are... Making their case against this one person. So it's eight or nine women.
00:15:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
00:15:43
Speaker 2: That's a lot to go against.
00:15:44
Speaker 1: And we tend to, I don't know, yes, there can be infighting initially, but I feel like we tend to coalesce. I don't know. I could be wrong.
00:15:53
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this last thing. I did not plan to discuss this with you. Who is more likely to cave to the pressure of eight or nine women? A man or a woman. Another woman. Another woman is more likely.
00:16:07
Speaker 1: That's what I think.
00:16:08
Speaker 2: That's why I think it's a man in there.
00:16:09
Speaker 1: That's why I think it's a man. But like, look, I could be so wrong.
00:16:13
Speaker 2: Fully.
00:16:13
Speaker 1: It's just I don't know. You do have a feeling.
00:16:16
Speaker 2: Now that you're talking about this. Sounds a man.
00:16:20
Speaker 1: Arrogance.
00:16:20
Speaker 2: I ain't gonna listen. You can't tell me nothing.
00:16:23
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:16:23
Speaker 2: Or somebody set in their ways, an older person perhaps.
00:16:26
Speaker 1: That was my other thing. I either think it's a man or it's somebody who is older.
00:16:31
Speaker 2: Do we have a racial breakdown? I saw it somewhere.
00:16:34
Speaker 1: I saw someone say that they're mostly white. That's all I got. Mostly white. Look, this is the Massachusetts, Boston area. It's predominantly white, Italian, Catholic. That is the majority of the makeup of that area, demographically speaking. But I do think it's either someone who is older... Or it's a man.
00:16:54
Speaker 2: It's going to end up being like a young black woman.
00:16:56
Speaker 1: Right.
00:16:57
Speaker 2: What the hell?
00:16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or it's somebody who has a very different. experience or life lens that they're looking through.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: We could have done a whole episode on that. That is fascinating to think. Who is it? Which one? Is it more likely a man or woman?
00:17:11
Speaker 1: What kind of a person? Yeah, it feels so strongly and holds firm. I'm telling you, I feel like that's why you might feel so protective of this person because if there were to be a holdout, you would be that person and you would hang a jury if you disagreed. you could not be convinced. Yeah, I'm just saying if you felt very strongly in your beliefs, you're not somebody who would go over to the other side. I absolutely would. I think I could be convinced. I'm like, okay.
00:17:40
Speaker 2: You've heard it from me a million times. I would be sitting in the corner of the room. I could do this all day.
00:17:43
Speaker 1: Exactly.
00:17:44
Speaker 2: I could do this all day, guys.
00:17:45
Speaker 1: And I think that's why you're so, you feel, it's funny how fiercely, passionately you are protecting this person's right to be different.
00:17:55
Speaker 2: Yes, because that's the system. It's the system.
00:17:59
Speaker 1: And the system also allows for apparent pressure to be applied.
00:18:03
Speaker 2: But that's what I'm saying. Okay, all of that, we're in 100% on par with. I'm saying a narrative is now developing that suggests they are wrong in what they believe. That we need somebody on there who is in line with the rest. We need somebody on there. It's almost like politics. We all have to be in line in this room. If not, kick you out and talk about you. That's the part. There's a narrative that's developing that suggests this person is something beyond just having an opinion.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, yeah. What?
00:18:39
Speaker 2: Charles Manson, 42 hours, nine days. Rodney King, cops. That was seven days, 40 plus hours of deliberations. The Karen Reid trial. Again, we've been talking about this one. That was 22 hours over five days. I didn't think there was a chance this jury was going to get close to the Michael Jackson jury. It surpassed it.
00:18:56
Speaker 1: 32 hours, seven days. Yeah. So we shall see what the final count is. And we can only hope that maybe today is the day there is some sort of outcome. Otherwise, we got to wait till Tuesday and those poor jurors got to cancel all their barbecue plans.
00:19:14
Speaker 2: You have me fascinated now by whether it's a man or a woman. There's a whole lot. I didn't think about it before we started. Now this is all that's on my mind. Folks, we are keeping an eye. Keep an eye on our feed. We will be watching at 9 o'clock. We'll update you when that news comes. But we appreciate you as always sticking with us. I'm TJ. That's Robes. We will talk to you very soon.