Aug. 25, 2026
Killer Mom Trial: Fireworks In Courtroom As Judge Reprimands Prosecution For Bringing Up Religion AGAIN
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RSS Feed The forensic psychologist who set off a firestorm in the courtroom on Monday will be back on the stand today. The judge ultimately ruled against a mistrial, but admonished the prosecution and instructed the jury to disregard Dr. Helibrun’s testimony about “mortal sin”. Testimony resumes today, first with Helibrun - and we can’t wait to hear how defense attorney Kevin Reddington handles any further questioning of him - and then with the state’s final rebuttal witness. We could see closing arguments as soon as Wednesday, and Lindsay Clancy’s fate should be in the hands of the jury by midweek.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey, the folks. It it's Tuesday, August twenty fifth, and your guest is as good as ours as what we're going to see in the courtroom today in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial, after we saw them come oh so close to a mistrial yesterday, and with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ wrote a lot of this went down late in the afternoon yesterday, So when they come back today, this guy is going to be back up right. This psycho absolutely is.
00:00:31
Speaker 2: Yes, we are going to hear and it's going to the prosecution. Was the one who was redirecting her questions towards him when this all went down, and so I guess she'll continue with that and then Kevin Reddington absolutely can come back with more cross examination questions.
00:00:54
Speaker 1: But this is we have watch. I keep asking you. I asked you at least once a day what week we're on.
00:00:59
Speaker 3: This is week five, We're.
00:01:01
Speaker 1: In week five, and the first day of week five robes this thing almost came apart. And we knew it from looking at the judge and his reaction that this almost came apart. But it's interesting to find out and to learn ropes just how big of a deal this was. This wasn't just a misstep and an oops and a quick reprimand is fine. This is really out of bound stuff.
00:01:25
Speaker 3: It is.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: This is the second time as well, by the way, that the prosecution made a reference in either its questioning or in an answer from one of their witnesses, where we heard the term mortal sin. And so yes, we can talk about doctor Kirk hellbrunn Is who actually spoke of it yesterday, but basically to give you an idea of how this all went down, he said that Lindsay Clancy told him that she told her children to go to God as she strangled her kids. His quote, that was part of her expectation that she and her children would be together in heaven with God. She was raised as a Catholic, as I understand Catholic considerations, that's not necessarily what happens. But when I asked her about that, when I said, isn't suicide a mortal sin?
00:02:17
Speaker 3: Objection?
00:02:19
Speaker 2: The judge angrily sent the jury out. And yes, ultimately the defense asked for a mistrial because of that exchange.
00:02:28
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, And in asking for it he sounded defeated because by all accounts robes from any casual observer to an expert legal analyst. He's winning the fight. He is doing really damn well in that courtroom. They've gone through five weeks of putting everybody through this experience, robes autopsy photos of strangled children. Who wants to go through that again? And after all that, because what he calls robes intentional misconduct, like they did this on purpose. He's pissed too, but he's he felt defeated. Yes, that's how he came across.
00:03:07
Speaker 2: I agree, And the judge came across as extremely unexceptionally pissed. He didn't grant the mistrial this time, I believe, is how he put it. But he did tell the jury that Clancy's religion quote is absolutely an inappropriate area of testimony. It is to be stricken, it is not to be considered. And this comes on the heels of last week when the prosecutor directly asked Lindsey Clancy's former mother in law, Susan Clancy, are you an active member in the Catholic Church, so you're aware that murder is considered a mortal sin. So look at the time, Yes, the judge called the sidebar struck the question from the record.
00:03:48
Speaker 3: But when you.
00:03:48
Speaker 2: Start to look at Massachusetts lawbay this is stunning. Massachusetts Section six' ten evidence of a witness's religious beliefs or a pit onions is inadmissible to attack or support their credibility. Period and it goes on to say lawyers cannot ask witnesses about their, religion how often they attend, church or their spiritual practices to prove they are more or less. Trustworthy she directly Asked Susan clancy if she was an active member of The Catholic.
00:04:20
Speaker 1: Church it's not something you overlook and miss as an, attorney, right she, asked and asked a follow up about. It she knew what she had a line of questioning there that one's. HOT i would give a pass maybe even on the witness right answering a. Question and maybe you didn't know he was going. There that came out of her mouth the first.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: Time and, look legal experts say this is actually a very dangerous. Approach if you want to say the prosecution is doing this intentionally and, deliberately WHICH i believe a lot of folks. Believe think they say it's. Dangerous Plymouth county where this is taking, place is forty Percent, Catholic so it's very.
00:04:59
Speaker 3: Likely that some of those jurors Are.
00:05:02
Speaker 2: Catholic and people are, Wondering, hello, prosecutors you they may hold this against.
00:05:08
Speaker 3: You this is highly.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: Offensive it's called separation of church and, state and, ethically lawyers know that it doesn't belong. Religion talk of, religion questions about religion does not belong in An american.
00:05:23
Speaker 3: Courtroom.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Period you, know you're supposed to steer clear of. This she, like WHEN i read that, law she knew. Better and Now i'm, sure at least the first time that was.
00:05:36
Speaker 1: Deliberate, bro he's calling this misconduct intentional. Misconduct we talked a little bit yesterday about the possibility or at least the suggestion some are making, that you know, what they know they're. Losing they don't mind a. Mistrial right, now let's run this thing back because we are getting thrashed by Mister. Reddington who, knows but this is what that does to a. Jury we've said this plenty of. Times there have been plenty of. Moments it's where we have to, ASK i wonder how the jury feels about the prosecutor doing, That like there were ways in which they felt it felt like they were being toyed with or being things are being thrown emotionally manipulated for photos in the way they want them to think About Lindsay, clancy all kinds of. Stuff and now here's another. Thing bro just's adding up to where it's not just amount of credibility of their, witnesses it's the credibility of the prosecution team itself.
00:06:29
Speaker 2: Exactly and look who this witness, is who will be back up on the, stand Doctor Kirk.
00:06:34
Speaker 3: Hellebroun he's a forensic.
00:06:37
Speaker 2: Psychologist he's testified in around three hundred and thirty cases about competency to stand.
00:06:44
Speaker 3: Trial so this is a.
00:06:46
Speaker 2: An experienced trial. Witness so the question is did he know? Better was there any coaching going on between the prosecution and Doctor.
00:06:57
Speaker 1: Hellibron, Yes and the reason you know that for a. Fact, Now i'm not saying they set this particular thing up. ROBES i really don't Think i've seen this. Before when he got up there first started, testifying he was reading. Answers she was asking him about his, resume asking about what you've, testified and all these. Things he knew those questions were, coming and he was reading from prepared.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: ANSWERS i thought that was strange.
00:07:24
Speaker 2: Too it looked we you AND i could rattle off our almost thirty year journalistic, history our, credit like where we went to, school and every Place i've, worked and what every Title i've.
00:07:34
Speaker 3: HAD i don't.
00:07:35
Speaker 2: Need to reference a sheet of. PAPER i thought that was.
00:07:38
Speaker 1: Strange so it made it feel, Like, okay everything we're doing here is, staged is set. Up he knew what question was going to come before he gave this. Answer that did it went to. Credibility it looked like too much coordination between the.
00:07:52
Speaker 2: Two, yes it, did and look when, look he had some interesting things to. Say but my, GOD i feel like all of that is kind of blown up with the fireworks that ensued with.
00:08:03
Speaker 3: The mortal sin.
00:08:05
Speaker 2: Comment but, look he testified before all of that drama That Lindsey, clancy, yes had intrusive, thoughts but not auditory. Hallucinations he said they were her own thoughts up until that short window of time when she killed her. Kids and so he, said for her to hear suddenly another, voice a male, voice during that very limited specific period of time and never before and never, after was very. Unusual so he drew a lot OF i mean he flat. Outside it Wasn't it wasn't likely or. Possible that makes sense to? You it?
00:08:43
Speaker 3: Did that?
00:08:44
Speaker 2: Did that landed for me a little bit That he's.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: Like why thoughts were replaced by the, voice and that's just unlikely to, yes, Happen but what were Her how do you explain the? Thoughts those were just depression. Anxiety she was just having her own thoughts about strangling these, kids in killing. Herself, yes and.
00:09:01
Speaker 2: That's depression, anxiety all of. That but he, said that's not. Psychosis H chosis would be hearing someone else's, voice or being told to do something by an external, force or feeling as if your body was taken over by something. Else and he's, saying it's just he's never seen a case where all of a, sudden for a short window of, time you hear this voice that you've never heard before or. After AND i thought that was actually fairly. Understandable he did Interview Lindsey clancy back In, april alongside the prosecution's other rebuttal witness who we heard, beforehand your favorite Doctor. Avram but they were, together they together Interviewed clancy In. APRIL i didn't realize they were alongside one, another and they came to very similar.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: Conclusion these are not after these, Performances these are not the two guys you call in.
00:09:51
Speaker 2: No because, look before all of the, drama we had Doctor avram mac back up on the stand and, Look Kevin reddington Scraw matt continued this in the early part of the, morning and, look remember the really contentious.
00:10:06
Speaker 3: Moment what are you smiling?
00:10:07
Speaker 2: For this is not, funny, Sir kevin readingon just in this time he. Was he actually came via, zoom which made it even more comical in a, way because he's like yelling at a computer, screen or at least that's what it felt like the defense.
00:10:20
Speaker 3: Attorney but he kept.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: Refusing this is where he lost, me this. Doctor and obviously there was a massively contentious back and forth between the defense attorney and.
00:10:31
Speaker 3: Him it's been going on now for two.
00:10:32
Speaker 2: Days but he kept refusing to acknowledge symptoms for postpartum, psychosis and that to me didn't feel.
00:10:40
Speaker 3: Genuine it felt.
00:10:41
Speaker 1: Disingenuous if we thought he lost credibility last, week it's. GONE i go into that jury. Room there's a BIG x on that sheet of paper with his face on, it and put it on the bullet the. Board nothing he said matters or counts.
00:10:57
Speaker 2: Because he refused to answer obvious.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: Questions that the, jurors at this, point sitting through five weeks of, testimony know the answer to what are the symptoms of fricking postpartum? Depression it does a whole. List he wouldn't concede anything To Kevin reddington being right about, Yes so it made it seem LIKE i am a homer here only trying to help the. Prosecution THEN i don't trust, you my, man as being credible and. Independent robes his. Testimony we don't need to speak on him.
00:11:26
Speaker 2: Again, well and you know what's, Interesting Kevin reddington pointed out to him in the middle of all of, this it was really effective that a judge in her previous case found mac unqualified to give. Testimony mack disagreed with that, characterization but he didn't say it didn't.
00:11:41
Speaker 1: Happen But robes and then he starts asking about his record and his background and some things in, which, yes some of his stuff was tossed, out some of his stuff on appeal was deemed all these and he's listing these. CASES i don't remember that, One, no, no, NOPE i don't remember.
00:11:58
Speaker 2: That his credibility was shot, gone, babe and that was by an effective defense.
00:12:05
Speaker 1: Counsel it was it robes the stuff about him working for some. Right they essentially belong to some system that just piles a bunch of psychologists and psychiatrists. Together if you need one to testify on your behalf of a, try you just go in there and you're you're rent a. Psychologist you're rent a Psychiat even hearing about that system sounds, Like, oh you're not really in this for anybody but yourself to make some.
00:12:28
Speaker 3: Money, yes exactly.
00:12:30
Speaker 1: Right, see this dude has Been i'm, sorry Doctor. MAC i think you're probably a decent, Dude but he. Did he had A this hurt him and it might hurt him in his. BUSINESS i was thinking.
00:12:39
Speaker 2: About that because, look in a lot of, Trials i'm sure this stuff goes, on but they're not televised nationally with a riveted. AUDIENCE i remember these, GUYS i remember their. Names this is absolutely going to have a far reaching impact on his, career on his. REPUTATION i, mean he came off looking.
00:13:00
Speaker 1: Terrible your defense attorney and the prosecution in your. Trial that's in six. Months their expert is Doctor. Avramack all you have to do is go to court tv dot com and look up How reddington cross examined, him and there's your.
00:13:17
Speaker 3: Playbook my, goodness you're. RIGHT i hadn't even thought about it like.
00:13:20
Speaker 1: That him down, forever his credibility is, gone and ALL i do is repeating, exactly, wow he's. Done all.
00:13:27
Speaker 2: Right when we come, back we're going to tell you what we're expecting today for the rest of the, week and what was going on outside the courtroom. Yesterday welcome back everyone To amy AND. Tj so, today as we, mentioned Doctor helbrun will be back on the. Stand the prosecution will continue her questioning of, him and, then, yes pretty Sure reddington's going to take a stab at things again just because he.
00:14:04
Speaker 1: Can you, know the guy's, praying please just make it. Stop AND i guess he'll be on zoom again today since he wasn't. Yesterday but May i'd love to see him back in the court.
00:14:14
Speaker 2: Room, oh it would be, remarkable and maybe he will be back in the. Courtroom BUT i was just, thinking did he if he didn't know what he, did if he didn't realize what he stepped, into he certainly obviously does, now AND i just wonder what his demeanor will be like to know.
00:14:29
Speaker 3: That literally he almost caused a.
00:14:33
Speaker 1: Mistrial oh, yeah And i'm. Sorry what's The why is a judge WHO'S i didn't get it, straight who's going to be talking to the guy who's supposed to help the guy back on the stand? Today who's going to give him the?
00:14:46
Speaker 2: TALKING i think the judge, will that's my, belief but because the judge can instruct the prosecutor to behind the scenes before he gets on the. Stand BUT i think it would be highly effective and maybe just for in the to put it in the, record if the judge talks to him first outside of the.
00:15:00
Speaker 1: Okay then that none of the okay outside of the, jury but on the.
00:15:02
Speaker 2: Record, ABSOLUTELY i would think that that's likely to.
00:15:05
Speaker 3: Happen but who.
00:15:06
Speaker 2: Knows he could have just instructed the prosecutor to say what she needed to say to him before he gets back up in the. Stand but obviously he's going to officially be spoken, to whether it's by the prosecutor or by the, judge but we will be watching. That, also we're expecting one more rebuttal witness from the prosecution, today so it is likely going to be a full day of testimony and then we're expecting closing arguments as soon as. Tomorrow deliberations will obviously. Follow and, look right, now we've got a jury of. Sixteen we don't know who the four alternates. Are they don't know who the four alternates. Are but, yes it will end up ultimately being twelve of. Them we don't know what the makeup will end up, being but there are far more women than men on that, jury which is an interesting part of the deliberations where.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: It will be how does it, Play, yeah it will play in some.
00:15:53
Speaker 2: Way, now outside the, courtroom remember last week we had a group of women three hundred. Strong there were a few men in there, too but they were all dressed in, pink showing support For Lindsay clancy and wanting more attention paid to women's mental health. Issues, well yesterday a group gathered wearing all white outside of the courthouse to remember the. Kids many of them were caring signs that said justice For, Cora dawson And callen and one of, them some of them were speaking to the. Media there was one quote that stood out to me because this just speaks to what we've talked about. Earlier this Divided. America the bottom line is she violently murdered her, children and we're losing sight of. That so this obviously seemed to be in response to the all pink display we saw last.
00:16:46
Speaker 1: Week it can be you, know it's. Okay it's possible to support police officers as well as the black people who have legitimate stories being abused by some police. Officers it's, possible. Folks we don't have to pick one or the. Other you can have sympathy for this woman and still want justice for these. Kids you can still mourn these kids with all you have without having to turn to outrage for the woman, who, yes we, know did the. Act it's just that there should be a sea of pink and white out. There that should just you know What i'm. Saying why do they feel like opposing? Demonstrations, YEAH i.
00:17:27
Speaker 2: Don't it almost feels LIKE i, know Maybe i'm Maybe i'm taking a leap, here but it almost feels like like we we want to stone her or hang her like like like she's some evil. Witch it just it has. That AND i know we're In massachusetts And salem's not. Far it just it feels like, THIS i do. It it has that feeling to, it AND i always.
00:17:48
Speaker 1: Aren't we whant a woman strangles her three. Kids that's all we know to. Do but it takes a little more and a little maturity and a little grace to ask the next, question which is, Why and then the next, Question, OH i hadn't heard about postpartum, psychosist tell me, more and then you Get. Robes we just don't go past the.
00:18:08
Speaker 2: Outrage, yeah and when you hear the stories of this woman who didn't even want her leave for children with other, folks who was worried about her son not being able to take the, bottle this is a woman who cared too, much maybe about all the details surrounding her children's health and well. Being and, yes then you add all of the hormones and potentially the psychosis that.
00:18:28
Speaker 3: ENSUED i don't understand the.
00:18:30
Speaker 2: HATRED i understand the horror of it, all BUT i do agree justice can come with understanding and even acceptance at some, point because we have to be able to understand the why to prevent it in the.
00:18:43
Speaker 1: Future maybe you AND i and others are willing to do the listening and some just. Aren't. Robes when you hear just how monstrous of an act this? Was is that? OKAY i, mean can you give folks grace for, SAYING i don't want to hear anything. Else she's a. MONSTER i don't want to hear anything. ELSE i guess you.
00:19:03
Speaker 2: Can the scary part is that it could be in all of. Us AND i think that's why people get so black and white about, it because they can't acknowledge that that's possible that a, kind decent person could have that in, them or that could happen to someone like. That so it's better just to cast someone off as evil and. Selfish we have and.
00:19:24
Speaker 1: Roes what is going to happen this? Jury how many days could this?
00:19:28
Speaker 3: TAKE i don't know how they come to a. Decision this will be. Fascinating can you remind?
00:19:34
Speaker 1: Me are those the only two? Options either guilty or not guilty by reason of?
00:19:39
Speaker 2: Insanity, well we'll find out in the jury. Instructions BUT i do believe, THAT i, mean right, now that's my. Understanding but we'll see what the, judge you, know tells that they'll go through what the possible outcomes are to the, jury and we'll.
00:19:54
Speaker 1: KNOW i wonder if they're going to give them lesser, options give them other, things because. Robes at this, point IT'S i would find it hard to believe that you would five twelve people who want to give her the ultimate multi maximum.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: Penalty could they give her like a voluntary manslaughter charge or SOMETHING i don't. KNOW i don't. Know we shall, see but we will be watching as, always and we thank you for.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: LISTENING i Made robock ALONGSIDE. Tj. Holmes we'll talk soon
Speaker 1: Hey, the folks. It it's Tuesday, August twenty fifth, and your guest is as good as ours as what we're going to see in the courtroom today in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial, after we saw them come oh so close to a mistrial yesterday, and with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ wrote a lot of this went down late in the afternoon yesterday, So when they come back today, this guy is going to be back up right. This psycho absolutely is.
00:00:31
Speaker 2: Yes, we are going to hear and it's going to the prosecution. Was the one who was redirecting her questions towards him when this all went down, and so I guess she'll continue with that and then Kevin Reddington absolutely can come back with more cross examination questions.
00:00:54
Speaker 1: But this is we have watch. I keep asking you. I asked you at least once a day what week we're on.
00:00:59
Speaker 3: This is week five, We're.
00:01:01
Speaker 1: In week five, and the first day of week five robes this thing almost came apart. And we knew it from looking at the judge and his reaction that this almost came apart. But it's interesting to find out and to learn ropes just how big of a deal this was. This wasn't just a misstep and an oops and a quick reprimand is fine. This is really out of bound stuff.
00:01:25
Speaker 3: It is.
00:01:25
Speaker 2: This is the second time as well, by the way, that the prosecution made a reference in either its questioning or in an answer from one of their witnesses, where we heard the term mortal sin. And so yes, we can talk about doctor Kirk hellbrunn Is who actually spoke of it yesterday, but basically to give you an idea of how this all went down, he said that Lindsay Clancy told him that she told her children to go to God as she strangled her kids. His quote, that was part of her expectation that she and her children would be together in heaven with God. She was raised as a Catholic, as I understand Catholic considerations, that's not necessarily what happens. But when I asked her about that, when I said, isn't suicide a mortal sin?
00:02:17
Speaker 3: Objection?
00:02:19
Speaker 2: The judge angrily sent the jury out. And yes, ultimately the defense asked for a mistrial because of that exchange.
00:02:28
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, And in asking for it he sounded defeated because by all accounts robes from any casual observer to an expert legal analyst. He's winning the fight. He is doing really damn well in that courtroom. They've gone through five weeks of putting everybody through this experience, robes autopsy photos of strangled children. Who wants to go through that again? And after all that, because what he calls robes intentional misconduct, like they did this on purpose. He's pissed too, but he's he felt defeated. Yes, that's how he came across.
00:03:07
Speaker 2: I agree, And the judge came across as extremely unexceptionally pissed. He didn't grant the mistrial this time, I believe, is how he put it. But he did tell the jury that Clancy's religion quote is absolutely an inappropriate area of testimony. It is to be stricken, it is not to be considered. And this comes on the heels of last week when the prosecutor directly asked Lindsey Clancy's former mother in law, Susan Clancy, are you an active member in the Catholic Church, so you're aware that murder is considered a mortal sin. So look at the time, Yes, the judge called the sidebar struck the question from the record.
00:03:48
Speaker 3: But when you.
00:03:48
Speaker 2: Start to look at Massachusetts lawbay this is stunning. Massachusetts Section six' ten evidence of a witness's religious beliefs or a pit onions is inadmissible to attack or support their credibility. Period and it goes on to say lawyers cannot ask witnesses about their, religion how often they attend, church or their spiritual practices to prove they are more or less. Trustworthy she directly Asked Susan clancy if she was an active member of The Catholic.
00:04:20
Speaker 1: Church it's not something you overlook and miss as an, attorney, right she, asked and asked a follow up about. It she knew what she had a line of questioning there that one's. HOT i would give a pass maybe even on the witness right answering a. Question and maybe you didn't know he was going. There that came out of her mouth the first.
00:04:39
Speaker 2: Time and, look legal experts say this is actually a very dangerous. Approach if you want to say the prosecution is doing this intentionally and, deliberately WHICH i believe a lot of folks. Believe think they say it's. Dangerous Plymouth county where this is taking, place is forty Percent, Catholic so it's very.
00:04:59
Speaker 3: Likely that some of those jurors Are.
00:05:02
Speaker 2: Catholic and people are, Wondering, hello, prosecutors you they may hold this against.
00:05:08
Speaker 3: You this is highly.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: Offensive it's called separation of church and, state and, ethically lawyers know that it doesn't belong. Religion talk of, religion questions about religion does not belong in An american.
00:05:23
Speaker 3: Courtroom.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: Period you, know you're supposed to steer clear of. This she, like WHEN i read that, law she knew. Better and Now i'm, sure at least the first time that was.
00:05:36
Speaker 1: Deliberate, bro he's calling this misconduct intentional. Misconduct we talked a little bit yesterday about the possibility or at least the suggestion some are making, that you know, what they know they're. Losing they don't mind a. Mistrial right, now let's run this thing back because we are getting thrashed by Mister. Reddington who, knows but this is what that does to a. Jury we've said this plenty of. Times there have been plenty of. Moments it's where we have to, ASK i wonder how the jury feels about the prosecutor doing, That like there were ways in which they felt it felt like they were being toyed with or being things are being thrown emotionally manipulated for photos in the way they want them to think About Lindsay, clancy all kinds of. Stuff and now here's another. Thing bro just's adding up to where it's not just amount of credibility of their, witnesses it's the credibility of the prosecution team itself.
00:06:29
Speaker 2: Exactly and look who this witness, is who will be back up on the, stand Doctor Kirk.
00:06:34
Speaker 3: Hellebroun he's a forensic.
00:06:37
Speaker 2: Psychologist he's testified in around three hundred and thirty cases about competency to stand.
00:06:44
Speaker 3: Trial so this is a.
00:06:46
Speaker 2: An experienced trial. Witness so the question is did he know? Better was there any coaching going on between the prosecution and Doctor.
00:06:57
Speaker 1: Hellibron, Yes and the reason you know that for a. Fact, Now i'm not saying they set this particular thing up. ROBES i really don't Think i've seen this. Before when he got up there first started, testifying he was reading. Answers she was asking him about his, resume asking about what you've, testified and all these. Things he knew those questions were, coming and he was reading from prepared.
00:07:22
Speaker 3: ANSWERS i thought that was strange.
00:07:24
Speaker 2: Too it looked we you AND i could rattle off our almost thirty year journalistic, history our, credit like where we went to, school and every Place i've, worked and what every Title i've.
00:07:34
Speaker 3: HAD i don't.
00:07:35
Speaker 2: Need to reference a sheet of. PAPER i thought that was.
00:07:38
Speaker 1: Strange so it made it feel, Like, okay everything we're doing here is, staged is set. Up he knew what question was going to come before he gave this. Answer that did it went to. Credibility it looked like too much coordination between the.
00:07:52
Speaker 2: Two, yes it, did and look when, look he had some interesting things to. Say but my, GOD i feel like all of that is kind of blown up with the fireworks that ensued with.
00:08:03
Speaker 3: The mortal sin.
00:08:05
Speaker 2: Comment but, look he testified before all of that drama That Lindsey, clancy, yes had intrusive, thoughts but not auditory. Hallucinations he said they were her own thoughts up until that short window of time when she killed her. Kids and so he, said for her to hear suddenly another, voice a male, voice during that very limited specific period of time and never before and never, after was very. Unusual so he drew a lot OF i mean he flat. Outside it Wasn't it wasn't likely or. Possible that makes sense to? You it?
00:08:43
Speaker 3: Did that?
00:08:44
Speaker 2: Did that landed for me a little bit That he's.
00:08:46
Speaker 1: Like why thoughts were replaced by the, voice and that's just unlikely to, yes, Happen but what were Her how do you explain the? Thoughts those were just depression. Anxiety she was just having her own thoughts about strangling these, kids in killing. Herself, yes and.
00:09:01
Speaker 2: That's depression, anxiety all of. That but he, said that's not. Psychosis H chosis would be hearing someone else's, voice or being told to do something by an external, force or feeling as if your body was taken over by something. Else and he's, saying it's just he's never seen a case where all of a, sudden for a short window of, time you hear this voice that you've never heard before or. After AND i thought that was actually fairly. Understandable he did Interview Lindsey clancy back In, april alongside the prosecution's other rebuttal witness who we heard, beforehand your favorite Doctor. Avram but they were, together they together Interviewed clancy In. APRIL i didn't realize they were alongside one, another and they came to very similar.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: Conclusion these are not after these, Performances these are not the two guys you call in.
00:09:51
Speaker 2: No because, look before all of the, drama we had Doctor avram mac back up on the stand and, Look Kevin reddington Scraw matt continued this in the early part of the, morning and, look remember the really contentious.
00:10:06
Speaker 3: Moment what are you smiling?
00:10:07
Speaker 2: For this is not, funny, Sir kevin readingon just in this time he. Was he actually came via, zoom which made it even more comical in a, way because he's like yelling at a computer, screen or at least that's what it felt like the defense.
00:10:20
Speaker 3: Attorney but he kept.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: Refusing this is where he lost, me this. Doctor and obviously there was a massively contentious back and forth between the defense attorney and.
00:10:31
Speaker 3: Him it's been going on now for two.
00:10:32
Speaker 2: Days but he kept refusing to acknowledge symptoms for postpartum, psychosis and that to me didn't feel.
00:10:40
Speaker 3: Genuine it felt.
00:10:41
Speaker 1: Disingenuous if we thought he lost credibility last, week it's. GONE i go into that jury. Room there's a BIG x on that sheet of paper with his face on, it and put it on the bullet the. Board nothing he said matters or counts.
00:10:57
Speaker 2: Because he refused to answer obvious.
00:10:59
Speaker 1: Questions that the, jurors at this, point sitting through five weeks of, testimony know the answer to what are the symptoms of fricking postpartum? Depression it does a whole. List he wouldn't concede anything To Kevin reddington being right about, Yes so it made it seem LIKE i am a homer here only trying to help the. Prosecution THEN i don't trust, you my, man as being credible and. Independent robes his. Testimony we don't need to speak on him.
00:11:26
Speaker 2: Again, well and you know what's, Interesting Kevin reddington pointed out to him in the middle of all of, this it was really effective that a judge in her previous case found mac unqualified to give. Testimony mack disagreed with that, characterization but he didn't say it didn't.
00:11:41
Speaker 1: Happen But robes and then he starts asking about his record and his background and some things in, which, yes some of his stuff was tossed, out some of his stuff on appeal was deemed all these and he's listing these. CASES i don't remember that, One, no, no, NOPE i don't remember.
00:11:58
Speaker 2: That his credibility was shot, gone, babe and that was by an effective defense.
00:12:05
Speaker 1: Counsel it was it robes the stuff about him working for some. Right they essentially belong to some system that just piles a bunch of psychologists and psychiatrists. Together if you need one to testify on your behalf of a, try you just go in there and you're you're rent a. Psychologist you're rent a Psychiat even hearing about that system sounds, Like, oh you're not really in this for anybody but yourself to make some.
00:12:28
Speaker 3: Money, yes exactly.
00:12:30
Speaker 1: Right, see this dude has Been i'm, sorry Doctor. MAC i think you're probably a decent, Dude but he. Did he had A this hurt him and it might hurt him in his. BUSINESS i was thinking.
00:12:39
Speaker 2: About that because, look in a lot of, Trials i'm sure this stuff goes, on but they're not televised nationally with a riveted. AUDIENCE i remember these, GUYS i remember their. Names this is absolutely going to have a far reaching impact on his, career on his. REPUTATION i, mean he came off looking.
00:13:00
Speaker 1: Terrible your defense attorney and the prosecution in your. Trial that's in six. Months their expert is Doctor. Avramack all you have to do is go to court tv dot com and look up How reddington cross examined, him and there's your.
00:13:17
Speaker 3: Playbook my, goodness you're. RIGHT i hadn't even thought about it like.
00:13:20
Speaker 1: That him down, forever his credibility is, gone and ALL i do is repeating, exactly, wow he's. Done all.
00:13:27
Speaker 2: Right when we come, back we're going to tell you what we're expecting today for the rest of the, week and what was going on outside the courtroom. Yesterday welcome back everyone To amy AND. Tj so, today as we, mentioned Doctor helbrun will be back on the. Stand the prosecution will continue her questioning of, him and, then, yes pretty Sure reddington's going to take a stab at things again just because he.
00:14:04
Speaker 1: Can you, know the guy's, praying please just make it. Stop AND i guess he'll be on zoom again today since he wasn't. Yesterday but May i'd love to see him back in the court.
00:14:14
Speaker 2: Room, oh it would be, remarkable and maybe he will be back in the. Courtroom BUT i was just, thinking did he if he didn't know what he, did if he didn't realize what he stepped, into he certainly obviously does, now AND i just wonder what his demeanor will be like to know.
00:14:29
Speaker 3: That literally he almost caused a.
00:14:33
Speaker 1: Mistrial oh, yeah And i'm. Sorry what's The why is a judge WHO'S i didn't get it, straight who's going to be talking to the guy who's supposed to help the guy back on the stand? Today who's going to give him the?
00:14:46
Speaker 2: TALKING i think the judge, will that's my, belief but because the judge can instruct the prosecutor to behind the scenes before he gets on the. Stand BUT i think it would be highly effective and maybe just for in the to put it in the, record if the judge talks to him first outside of the.
00:15:00
Speaker 1: Okay then that none of the okay outside of the, jury but on the.
00:15:02
Speaker 2: Record, ABSOLUTELY i would think that that's likely to.
00:15:05
Speaker 3: Happen but who.
00:15:06
Speaker 2: Knows he could have just instructed the prosecutor to say what she needed to say to him before he gets back up in the. Stand but obviously he's going to officially be spoken, to whether it's by the prosecutor or by the, judge but we will be watching. That, also we're expecting one more rebuttal witness from the prosecution, today so it is likely going to be a full day of testimony and then we're expecting closing arguments as soon as. Tomorrow deliberations will obviously. Follow and, look right, now we've got a jury of. Sixteen we don't know who the four alternates. Are they don't know who the four alternates. Are but, yes it will end up ultimately being twelve of. Them we don't know what the makeup will end up, being but there are far more women than men on that, jury which is an interesting part of the deliberations where.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: It will be how does it, Play, yeah it will play in some.
00:15:53
Speaker 2: Way, now outside the, courtroom remember last week we had a group of women three hundred. Strong there were a few men in there, too but they were all dressed in, pink showing support For Lindsay clancy and wanting more attention paid to women's mental health. Issues, well yesterday a group gathered wearing all white outside of the courthouse to remember the. Kids many of them were caring signs that said justice For, Cora dawson And callen and one of, them some of them were speaking to the. Media there was one quote that stood out to me because this just speaks to what we've talked about. Earlier this Divided. America the bottom line is she violently murdered her, children and we're losing sight of. That so this obviously seemed to be in response to the all pink display we saw last.
00:16:46
Speaker 1: Week it can be you, know it's. Okay it's possible to support police officers as well as the black people who have legitimate stories being abused by some police. Officers it's, possible. Folks we don't have to pick one or the. Other you can have sympathy for this woman and still want justice for these. Kids you can still mourn these kids with all you have without having to turn to outrage for the woman, who, yes we, know did the. Act it's just that there should be a sea of pink and white out. There that should just you know What i'm. Saying why do they feel like opposing? Demonstrations, YEAH i.
00:17:27
Speaker 2: Don't it almost feels LIKE i, know Maybe i'm Maybe i'm taking a leap, here but it almost feels like like we we want to stone her or hang her like like like she's some evil. Witch it just it has. That AND i know we're In massachusetts And salem's not. Far it just it feels like, THIS i do. It it has that feeling to, it AND i always.
00:17:48
Speaker 1: Aren't we whant a woman strangles her three. Kids that's all we know to. Do but it takes a little more and a little maturity and a little grace to ask the next, question which is, Why and then the next, Question, OH i hadn't heard about postpartum, psychosist tell me, more and then you Get. Robes we just don't go past the.
00:18:08
Speaker 2: Outrage, yeah and when you hear the stories of this woman who didn't even want her leave for children with other, folks who was worried about her son not being able to take the, bottle this is a woman who cared too, much maybe about all the details surrounding her children's health and well. Being and, yes then you add all of the hormones and potentially the psychosis that.
00:18:28
Speaker 3: ENSUED i don't understand the.
00:18:30
Speaker 2: HATRED i understand the horror of it, all BUT i do agree justice can come with understanding and even acceptance at some, point because we have to be able to understand the why to prevent it in the.
00:18:43
Speaker 1: Future maybe you AND i and others are willing to do the listening and some just. Aren't. Robes when you hear just how monstrous of an act this? Was is that? OKAY i, mean can you give folks grace for, SAYING i don't want to hear anything. Else she's a. MONSTER i don't want to hear anything. ELSE i guess you.
00:19:03
Speaker 2: Can the scary part is that it could be in all of. Us AND i think that's why people get so black and white about, it because they can't acknowledge that that's possible that a, kind decent person could have that in, them or that could happen to someone like. That so it's better just to cast someone off as evil and. Selfish we have and.
00:19:24
Speaker 1: Roes what is going to happen this? Jury how many days could this?
00:19:28
Speaker 3: TAKE i don't know how they come to a. Decision this will be. Fascinating can you remind?
00:19:34
Speaker 1: Me are those the only two? Options either guilty or not guilty by reason of?
00:19:39
Speaker 2: Insanity, well we'll find out in the jury. Instructions BUT i do believe, THAT i, mean right, now that's my. Understanding but we'll see what the, judge you, know tells that they'll go through what the possible outcomes are to the, jury and we'll.
00:19:54
Speaker 1: KNOW i wonder if they're going to give them lesser, options give them other, things because. Robes at this, point IT'S i would find it hard to believe that you would five twelve people who want to give her the ultimate multi maximum.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: Penalty could they give her like a voluntary manslaughter charge or SOMETHING i don't. KNOW i don't. Know we shall, see but we will be watching as, always and we thank you for.
00:20:14
Speaker 3: LISTENING i Made robock ALONGSIDE. Tj. Holmes we'll talk soon