Aug. 11, 2026
Killer Mom Trial: Brutal Takedown, A Cross Examination Like We’ve Never Seen Before
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RSS Feed It was a jaw dropping cross examination that lasted for most the day on Tuesday. Lindsay Clancy’s defense attorney revealed the main psychiatrist treating Lindsay Clancy had only been practicing for one month while claiming to be an expert in postpartum issues. Dr. Jennifer Tufts had to admit that she completed most of her residency during COVID, and that she never once saw Clancy in person until that very day in the courtroom; all of their sessions were via zoom. The defense scored major points tearing apart Dr. Tufts assessment and treatment of Clancy, at one point saying Tufts’ choice of prescription drugs “pushed her over the edge.”
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Tuesday, August eleventh, and what an extraordinary day we just witnessed in the Lindsey Clancy murder trial. The defense absolutely eviscerated a star prosecution witness to the point we genuinely felt sorry for her. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. A little I'm not I don't want to is not going to be hyperbolic in a victory victim of the moment ropes because we just saw it. But we have seen a lot between television and movies and real life court rooms that you and I have witnessed robes. I don't remember ever seeing anything like this.
00:00:42
Speaker 2: This was you used the word eviscerating or he eviscerated her that there's no other way to describe what we saw in court on Monday. And look, there were only two witnesses on the stand, and the one witness we are talking talking about, doctor Jennifer Tuffs.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: The day was rge.
00:01:03
Speaker 2: She was on the stand from nine to thirty in the morning until three o'clock in the afternoon. And when we say she was on the stand, she was being pummeled. She was being destroyed by Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney, and it just was unrelenting to the point where I even said, he has made his point.
00:01:24
Speaker 3: I feel like he is now like I.
00:01:26
Speaker 2: Actually wanted the prosecutor to say badgering the witness argumentative. I wanted her to start objecting, like you start to feel like you're you're a lawyer. You watch enough of these, I'm like, why is she not objecting? He is badgering her at this point I.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Made you remember I made the comment if I'm a sports this is where you need a timeout, like you are getting beat up. We need a time out. Please make this stop. She needs a break Robes nine to three. There was never a breather for her. She was under non stop assault and defending her work, her education, everything.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Yet if this were a boxing match, she would have been knocked out and just like constantly knocked out, knocked out, knocked out in the first ten minutes, babe, in the first ten minutes. So doctor Jennifer Tuffs, who was Lindsey Clancy's psychiatrist, basically the woman, the doctor who I would say, based on everyone else we've seen testify, treated her the most and the most consistently. She became her physician in September of twenty twenty two and treated her all the way up until the day before the murder.
00:02:38
Speaker 1: So that has got to be emphasized, Robes. In the experts they put up. We've taught her from a few psychiatrists. We've heard of a few doctors that treated her after all this stuff. Robes, this is the one who was with her and the key lead up to her deteriorating. And the last time she saw her was what day, the day.
00:02:54
Speaker 3: Before, the day before the murder.
00:02:55
Speaker 1: So in that context, this is an incredibly important woman. Yes, on the stand, This is as big of a star witness as the prosecution has.
00:03:03
Speaker 2: So the prosecution had her up all day Friday, questioning her correct or for a large part of Friday. So Monday, we knew it was going to be explosive because we knew that the defense was going to have to tear her apart. We didn't know how, we didn't know what, and we didn't know how much. We predicted it was going to be a big day, we still wouldn't have been able to foresee what we actually witnessed.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: You know, I was expecting him to challenge her conclusions, to challenge her work rodes. He challenged her every move from the time she got out of college. He went after everything and robes. He made his point it was as effective as you can beat robes. There were jaw dropping moments to where I'm like what they put her up as their expert. It was. It was stunning.
00:03:56
Speaker 2: Okay, so you are correct, And a lot of it went on, as we pointed out, for six hours. Albeit a few breaks were in there, but the first ten minutes set the tone. And he immediately starts asking her because when you look at her, she's young.
00:04:14
Speaker 3: You can tell.
00:04:15
Speaker 1: She said, yeah, last week he said, she looks so young.
00:04:17
Speaker 2: She looks so young. Turns out she is. So he gets her to talk about her education. We find out her residency was from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two. Most of the residency, he points out, took place during COVID.
00:04:33
Speaker 1: Well, that's a big deal.
00:04:34
Speaker 2: So she's not actually physically treating patients. She's not actually seeing patients. She's doing it all via zoom, which you would imagine would have significant implications in just your training ropes.
00:04:49
Speaker 1: People are complaining that kids in elementary school in this country were missing out on education because they had to do it remotely that their learning was being impacted. This is somebody who needs to read people, who needs to talk to people, needs to see people how they're physically behaving. And most of her training was.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: Done during COVID, not in person, correct, So that was the first WHOA.
00:05:15
Speaker 1: Then that was just eyebrow raising for me.
00:05:18
Speaker 2: Okay, Then he finds out or gets her to acknowledge he knows this very well when he's going into this.
00:05:25
Speaker 3: Sorry, we found out he already knew that.
00:05:28
Speaker 2: Her board certification took place, and she began officially practicing as an independent doctor in August of twenty twenty two. Her first visit with Lindsey Clancy was one month later.
00:05:45
Speaker 1: Let that sink in.
00:05:47
Speaker 3: One month on the job.
00:05:49
Speaker 2: And look, she did point out, Look, my brother is a doctor, an MD as well, and he'll tell you, yes, while you're a resident, you're still technically a doctor.
00:05:56
Speaker 1: Don't want to hear that.
00:05:57
Speaker 2: But I don't think anyone wants treating them with a life threatening illness while they're technically a doctor but still training on the job as a resident. And that's why residents have supervising doctors with them at all times. So the first time she's actually independently seeing a patient. Treating a patient as a doctor. Happened one month before she took on Lindsey Clancy as a patient rope.
00:06:25
Speaker 1: So we almost fell out of our chairs. We one month fell out of our chairs. Something that's this rare, this complicated, something this complex, this difficult, this serious. You do not want a one month doctor doing it? Are you going in with stage three cancer? And your oncologist says, yeah, I just got my bored certification last month. Check that out up on the wall. You're going to say, give me somebody else.
00:06:47
Speaker 3: Nobody wants that.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: This is plain as day now ropes. Maybe she got whatever training and whatever else and she was capable. But what reads to a jury is what I understand is this woman with this complicated mess of a mental illness, and y'all got a one month in doctor treating her. That swift that reachs OK.
00:07:07
Speaker 2: So we're I understand that, we're listening. Our antennas are up. So then he asks her, how many patients have you treated with postpartum psychosis?
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Didn't we all know this answer?
00:07:17
Speaker 3: Her answer?
00:07:18
Speaker 2: In the span of one month, I would say none, because it's a rare disorder. Then he says, how about postpartum depression in that month? She responds, well, that's hard to pinpoint. Maybe a couple. Okay, so you've now established she's not ever treated anyone with postpartum psychosis yep. And she says, maybe she's treated a couple with postpartum depression in that month. Now Here is where he really brings it home again. This is all still in the first ten minutes of her testimony. You advertised on your company's website that you were an expert on postpartum issues, and Lindsey Clancy came to you because of that ad that you were an expert on postpartum issues. He then asks doctor Jennifer Tuff's are you an expert in postpartum Lily? Her response, I maybe I don't know. No, I think it depends on what you define an expert.
00:08:19
Speaker 3: As holy hell.
00:08:22
Speaker 1: We're done. She's done. Rogues completely discredited this woman in a matter of minutes. And then look, those were a couple of moments. This went on for hours. He beat out this into our heads robes. I don't know how this didn't further the defense's defense that she was not getting the help she needed. It's one thing to not get the right diagnosis of the right treatment. She wasn't talking to the right people. You all gave her someone fresh out that gait Robes. That makes like I am now even more depth, Like wow, I'm like this woman had access to the best health and the best healthcare. Did she the person taking care of her had a month of experience? Robes? Is that fair? Is that okay? No?
00:09:15
Speaker 2: And also leading up to that one month really didn't have the in person patient experience that especially I would imagine a psychiatrist. There were so many things you have to read about someone. So the next comes the next big jaw dropping reveal. He gets her to admit and none of us knew this. At least I didn't know this. I don't believe you did either, that doctor Jennifer Tough's in all those months of treating Lindsay Clancy never once met Lindsay Clansen in person. The first time she ever was in the same room as Lindsay Clancy was yesterday, Monday, August tenth, in a courtroom. Everything she did with her was all on zoom for telemedicine.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: Is never gonna get a reason for why that had to be the case, no, saying that in the you know what, it wasn't just and this is where this was really effective. Robes. He could have left it at. All of the meetings were on telehealth, all of the meetings were done via zoom, All of them were on the computer screen, which he referred to so many times. He said, so, you talked to her on the little TV. He kept saying that, and she would say the computer screen. I think he did that for emphasis. He kept doing it over and over.
00:10:32
Speaker 2: And in the one month that you've been on the job. Oh, he reiterated all of this in the preface of many of his questions.
00:10:38
Speaker 1: He could have left it at you only saw her on the little TV, but he made her say that the first time I've ever in my life been in a room, but this woman is today. Robes.
00:10:49
Speaker 3: That is effective, so effective.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: It's stunning that you all are up here giving us the expert advice about how this woman is doing and one and they gave us saw for twenty minutes, this woman saw on a little TV a few times and never was in a room with her.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: After having been on the job for one month, after having advertised that she was an expert in post.
00:11:14
Speaker 1: It did part of them that was her own advertisements.
00:11:17
Speaker 2: So yes, he pointed out what doctor Tuffs didn't do couldn't do. See Lindsay Clancy's hands, her legs, he said, he said, you couldn't give her a hug. She's like, well, that's not what we would normally.
00:11:29
Speaker 1: Which I thought was wild for her to respond in that way. It was just a matter of you know what, that was effective as well. I don't know if he set her up for that, but it was effective and that wow, you sound cold, like you're not really trying to care for.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: Her, right, And then he got her to acknowledge that she didn't administer something that he said was the standard of care for anyone who has postpartum signs of depression, et cetera is the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale.
00:11:56
Speaker 3: He was like, you never ever asked her these questions. There are ten questions.
00:12:01
Speaker 2: This is standard, and he starts asking all the questions, did you ask for this?
00:12:05
Speaker 3: Did you ask for this? Did you ask for this?
00:12:07
Speaker 2: And she had to say no, and it made her look like she completely dropped the ball when it came to diagnosing Lindsay klans.
00:12:15
Speaker 1: But I'm not familiar. None of us so familiar with this Edinburgh scale before this, right, he made it sound really important and really official. And to hear a trained expert up there say I'm not really familiar with it. I don't know any questions. I don't know how many questions it is. She sounds clueless.
00:12:32
Speaker 2: He kept making He kept asking questions in which she had to answer I don't know, I don't recall, and just she's fumbling and stumbling. And look, she is young, and she was absolutely intimidated and she was fumbling all over herself. Right before they broke for lunch, he started asking her about the medications, and he was pummeling her on her choices of zoloft, which is known to potentially presents suicidal ideations and folks create sleep issues. He's like, you have a woman who called the suicide hotline twice. By the way, he got her to admit, she didn't know that Lindsey Clancy had called the suicide hotline not once but twice, because she never asked her and she didn't offer it up.
00:13:18
Speaker 1: See that exchange. I thought the young lady had a chance there, and I guess it makes sense. She said, Hey, she's not someone who had told me about suicidal ideation or suicidal thoughts as we were talking. So that's not something I would ask. That kind of makes sense, But he got her to actually say, yeah, that does surprise me. And again it made her sound clueless, like I'm surprised.
00:13:40
Speaker 2: What it is it surprise you to learn, and she had to say yes, it would surprise.
00:13:46
Speaker 1: It made her sound even more clueless or disconnected to say no, I'm not aware is one thing.
00:13:50
Speaker 2: Say I'm surprised, correct, And then he gets her to admit, yeah, Well, he starts talking about how zoloft is known for creating sleep issues and suicidal ideations, and the fact that she had already tried zoloft after her second child and had to get off after a week, and yet this young doctor who is inexperience only talking to her over a zoom call maybe pushing, yes, pushing zoloft when clearly it would make no sense the way the defense attorney was describing it. And then he asked her whether this one Emma triptolene she prescribed pushed her over the edge, didn't it. I mean he literally is telling her the drug you prescribed pushed Lindsay Clancy to kill her children, pushed her over the edge, didn't it?
00:14:34
Speaker 3: Her response, I don't think so.
00:14:38
Speaker 1: Wow, it's a tough day.
00:14:40
Speaker 2: So then they break and they come back, and the prosecution gets to try to redirect and gets her to say, yes, I have treated people with psychosis.
00:14:50
Speaker 3: That Lindsay Clancy.
00:14:52
Speaker 2: Was completely denying sudicidal and homicidal ideation on January twenty third, the day before she killed her babies. But the the fence comes back and starts. This is where he really gets her on her notes about whether or not so this doctor, doctor Tuffs put in her notes that Lindsay Clancy had not hyper coma pressured speech.
00:15:14
Speaker 3: You remember this back and forth.
00:15:15
Speaker 1: Oh of course it was because he was standing right next to her. So the tension was actual physical tension to a certain agreement.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Yes, so he's saying, so she had pressured speech, and the doctor saying, no, this is just how I wrote my notes. I meant she was had non hyper non pressured speech. She's like, that's not what you wrote. She replies, I don't care what it says. I know what it meant. Did you write that, doctor, I wrote that, But you're misinterpreting my note, your interpretation is incorrect as opposed to yours. I have nothing further boom drop the mic.
00:15:51
Speaker 1: I don't know if. I don't know if that point landed, because I think it's possible that she did mess up up in the notes. I think, of course, I think that's fair. And he could also be right as well in how he's interpreting it. He could be. But the exchange was so important robes to see her. This was the one moment in all of the testimony robes where I felt like she did defend something that she knew she was right about. Yes, this was the one time which for me, I'm like, why weren't you standing by all of your conclusions during the half past six hours of testimony?
00:16:28
Speaker 2: And maybe that was his point to say, when you actually know you're right, you do get angry.
00:16:34
Speaker 3: The rest of the time. You cowered the rest of the time you were.
00:16:38
Speaker 1: She fought back. Yes, even he was standing there showing her the paper right next to her, and she even postured like she was sitting up.
00:16:46
Speaker 3: She was expression she was so angry.
00:16:49
Speaker 2: But I will say that, and I say, poor young woman was beaten up on the stand.
00:16:54
Speaker 1: Wanted to buy a drink and give a hook.
00:16:56
Speaker 3: I said, She's going.
00:16:56
Speaker 2: To go home and drink the biggest glass of wine or maybe an entire bottle. That was how tough it was for her on the stand yesterday. And when we come back, we're going to tell you about the second witness.
00:17:08
Speaker 3: Only that's all.
00:17:08
Speaker 2: They got to the second witness who took the stand yesterday. She'll be back on the stand today and and and welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. It was a heck of a day in court yesterday in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. And we told you about her psychiatrist, her young and yes, inexperienced psychiatrist. Up next was a psychiatric nurse practitioner. Her name was Julie Paul and she worked with Lindsay Clancy's then mother in law, so Patrick Clancy's mom and Susan asked if she would help talk with Lindsay.
00:17:50
Speaker 3: So she kind of basically hit all the.
00:17:53
Speaker 2: Points that so many other witnesses have testified to for the prosecution that Lindsay Clancy was not so, she was not homicidal, and the really only major concern for her was just that she was not able to sleep. And had generalized anxiety.
00:18:09
Speaker 3: And that was pretty much it.
00:18:12
Speaker 2: And that was a quick few minutes of testimony by Julie Paul. And look, she is now going to be cross examined by the defense when court begins today.
00:18:23
Speaker 1: Hold on to your butts. This guy is something now. He even got to a point yesterday that you felt like, okay, bro, just just give her a break it And I don't know if it was because he was being so combative. It was just point after point after point was just so devastating for her. Every single thing was some damning detail about her work. And that couldn't have felt good. This young lady. I mean, based on her education, robes and whatnot, she's probably is she thirty yet I don't.
00:18:53
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think so twenty two, twenty four.
00:18:58
Speaker 3: I mean she might be right at about yeah.
00:19:00
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember when my brother ended up becoming actually a practicing doctor.
00:19:04
Speaker 3: It is close to thirty. But she's young. I mean, she's very young.
00:19:08
Speaker 2: And when you have someone who is in a life or death situation, oh.
00:19:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's three years ago.
00:19:12
Speaker 3: If she was younger, it's a hell of a time.
00:19:15
Speaker 2: I just think about I was thinking about her starting off her medical career. I know how hard these doctors work to get to where they are to earn the degrees they have, and for very obvious reasons. You have to be the best of the best, the brightest. And to know that this was one of her very first cases, that's tough. That's demoralizing. I mean, that's something that could be career ending for a doctor.
00:19:37
Speaker 1: That was the word I was going to use, Babe. She just started out, what's the worst thing you can possibly do? This is what you're supposed to do. Protect people from themselves, protect the environment, protect their loved ones, protect the general community from someone who might be a danger. This is what you're dealing with. There's a very serious profession. She's in robes and she had a client that went on and killed three kids.
00:19:58
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think I was thinking just about the weight of that on her, on her shoulders, because look, when you're when you're a doctor of any kind, you know that lives are in your hands. And I'm not trying to minimize what psychiatrists do, but they could they perhaps feel a little bit less of that pressure in terms of just how many people die that you're actually treating as a psychiatrist versus when you're in an er room or dealing with cancer patients. Death is a huge part of what you're facing each and every day. I wonder, I mean, sure psychiatrists deal with this, but right off the bat, one of your very first patients, this is the outcome that is so difficult for a young doctor, a starting off on her career. And that was also in my mind just making imagining the weight she must feel and the guilt she must feel about what happened, or maybe she's disassociated from it, and you learn to do that and you learn to have a separation. I know so many positions of police and doctors. You have to have a way to compart mentalize all of this. But it just I felt for that young lady.
00:21:03
Speaker 1: Perhaps a woman came to her for help.
00:21:07
Speaker 3: And she did she fail her? And that was absolutely what the defense was.
00:21:11
Speaker 1: How could she? How could you not say or feel that you failed someone who went on to do that. How could you not You're going to ask yourself, what did I miss? What did I not see? What did I not prescribe? What did I prescribe too much of what did I do wrong? Should I have had her come into the all these things, man and a lot of people saw her. Babe. That's the husband, I mean, Robes, the husband was right next to her. I'm still kind of shocked that it wasn't more evident to him that there was an emergency in the house. Not again, not criticizing any of these folks with baby there was. She had a bunch of people around her who loved her. It sounds like she did.
00:21:46
Speaker 2: And then when we see everyone testify, at least all of these medical or these healthcare professionals, and obviously they have their reputations to uphold and they don't want to appear as if they did anything wrong, So you have to take that with a grain of salt as well. But each one of these metal professionals have gotten up on the stand one after another, and all of them, including Lindsay Clancy's friends, Patrick Clancy's friends, all saying they did not see any signs of psychosis, and none of them thought that she was imminently going to harm herself or her children.
00:22:17
Speaker 3: And that is of note.
00:22:18
Speaker 2: Now today the judge did tell the jurors that they may have a little late start because he needs to work.
00:22:24
Speaker 3: Out an issue with the attorneys.
00:22:25
Speaker 2: They're going to go over first thing in the morning, the defense's request to bring in a witnessed. We don't know what that witness is, but there's some objection by the prosecution about a defense witness that they want to call and look the prosecution, I mean, the defense has to cross examine this nurse practitioner today. But it's unclear how much longer the prosecution will go for the rest of the day. But we know that they are nearing the end of their case. We are it could happen today where they rest the case. Maybe it's tomorrow, but we shall see. And yes, when we know that the day begins with the defense cross examination, we know that it most likely will not be boring and what we will be watching, we always appreciate you listening everyone.
00:23:07
Speaker 3: I made me Roeboch alongside TJ. Holmes. We'll talk soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Tuesday, August eleventh, and what an extraordinary day we just witnessed in the Lindsey Clancy murder trial. The defense absolutely eviscerated a star prosecution witness to the point we genuinely felt sorry for her. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. A little I'm not I don't want to is not going to be hyperbolic in a victory victim of the moment ropes because we just saw it. But we have seen a lot between television and movies and real life court rooms that you and I have witnessed robes. I don't remember ever seeing anything like this.
00:00:42
Speaker 2: This was you used the word eviscerating or he eviscerated her that there's no other way to describe what we saw in court on Monday. And look, there were only two witnesses on the stand, and the one witness we are talking talking about, doctor Jennifer Tuffs.
00:01:02
Speaker 1: The day was rge.
00:01:03
Speaker 2: She was on the stand from nine to thirty in the morning until three o'clock in the afternoon. And when we say she was on the stand, she was being pummeled. She was being destroyed by Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney, and it just was unrelenting to the point where I even said, he has made his point.
00:01:24
Speaker 3: I feel like he is now like I.
00:01:26
Speaker 2: Actually wanted the prosecutor to say badgering the witness argumentative. I wanted her to start objecting, like you start to feel like you're you're a lawyer. You watch enough of these, I'm like, why is she not objecting? He is badgering her at this point I.
00:01:41
Speaker 1: Made you remember I made the comment if I'm a sports this is where you need a timeout, like you are getting beat up. We need a time out. Please make this stop. She needs a break Robes nine to three. There was never a breather for her. She was under non stop assault and defending her work, her education, everything.
00:02:03
Speaker 2: Yet if this were a boxing match, she would have been knocked out and just like constantly knocked out, knocked out, knocked out in the first ten minutes, babe, in the first ten minutes. So doctor Jennifer Tuffs, who was Lindsey Clancy's psychiatrist, basically the woman, the doctor who I would say, based on everyone else we've seen testify, treated her the most and the most consistently. She became her physician in September of twenty twenty two and treated her all the way up until the day before the murder.
00:02:38
Speaker 1: So that has got to be emphasized, Robes. In the experts they put up. We've taught her from a few psychiatrists. We've heard of a few doctors that treated her after all this stuff. Robes, this is the one who was with her and the key lead up to her deteriorating. And the last time she saw her was what day, the day.
00:02:54
Speaker 3: Before, the day before the murder.
00:02:55
Speaker 1: So in that context, this is an incredibly important woman. Yes, on the stand, This is as big of a star witness as the prosecution has.
00:03:03
Speaker 2: So the prosecution had her up all day Friday, questioning her correct or for a large part of Friday. So Monday, we knew it was going to be explosive because we knew that the defense was going to have to tear her apart. We didn't know how, we didn't know what, and we didn't know how much. We predicted it was going to be a big day, we still wouldn't have been able to foresee what we actually witnessed.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: You know, I was expecting him to challenge her conclusions, to challenge her work rodes. He challenged her every move from the time she got out of college. He went after everything and robes. He made his point it was as effective as you can beat robes. There were jaw dropping moments to where I'm like what they put her up as their expert. It was. It was stunning.
00:03:56
Speaker 2: Okay, so you are correct, And a lot of it went on, as we pointed out, for six hours. Albeit a few breaks were in there, but the first ten minutes set the tone. And he immediately starts asking her because when you look at her, she's young.
00:04:14
Speaker 3: You can tell.
00:04:15
Speaker 1: She said, yeah, last week he said, she looks so young.
00:04:17
Speaker 2: She looks so young. Turns out she is. So he gets her to talk about her education. We find out her residency was from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two. Most of the residency, he points out, took place during COVID.
00:04:33
Speaker 1: Well, that's a big deal.
00:04:34
Speaker 2: So she's not actually physically treating patients. She's not actually seeing patients. She's doing it all via zoom, which you would imagine would have significant implications in just your training ropes.
00:04:49
Speaker 1: People are complaining that kids in elementary school in this country were missing out on education because they had to do it remotely that their learning was being impacted. This is somebody who needs to read people, who needs to talk to people, needs to see people how they're physically behaving. And most of her training was.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: Done during COVID, not in person, correct, So that was the first WHOA.
00:05:15
Speaker 1: Then that was just eyebrow raising for me.
00:05:18
Speaker 2: Okay, Then he finds out or gets her to acknowledge he knows this very well when he's going into this.
00:05:25
Speaker 3: Sorry, we found out he already knew that.
00:05:28
Speaker 2: Her board certification took place, and she began officially practicing as an independent doctor in August of twenty twenty two. Her first visit with Lindsey Clancy was one month later.
00:05:45
Speaker 1: Let that sink in.
00:05:47
Speaker 3: One month on the job.
00:05:49
Speaker 2: And look, she did point out, Look, my brother is a doctor, an MD as well, and he'll tell you, yes, while you're a resident, you're still technically a doctor.
00:05:56
Speaker 1: Don't want to hear that.
00:05:57
Speaker 2: But I don't think anyone wants treating them with a life threatening illness while they're technically a doctor but still training on the job as a resident. And that's why residents have supervising doctors with them at all times. So the first time she's actually independently seeing a patient. Treating a patient as a doctor. Happened one month before she took on Lindsey Clancy as a patient rope.
00:06:25
Speaker 1: So we almost fell out of our chairs. We one month fell out of our chairs. Something that's this rare, this complicated, something this complex, this difficult, this serious. You do not want a one month doctor doing it? Are you going in with stage three cancer? And your oncologist says, yeah, I just got my bored certification last month. Check that out up on the wall. You're going to say, give me somebody else.
00:06:47
Speaker 3: Nobody wants that.
00:06:48
Speaker 1: This is plain as day now ropes. Maybe she got whatever training and whatever else and she was capable. But what reads to a jury is what I understand is this woman with this complicated mess of a mental illness, and y'all got a one month in doctor treating her. That swift that reachs OK.
00:07:07
Speaker 2: So we're I understand that, we're listening. Our antennas are up. So then he asks her, how many patients have you treated with postpartum psychosis?
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Didn't we all know this answer?
00:07:17
Speaker 3: Her answer?
00:07:18
Speaker 2: In the span of one month, I would say none, because it's a rare disorder. Then he says, how about postpartum depression in that month? She responds, well, that's hard to pinpoint. Maybe a couple. Okay, so you've now established she's not ever treated anyone with postpartum psychosis yep. And she says, maybe she's treated a couple with postpartum depression in that month. Now Here is where he really brings it home again. This is all still in the first ten minutes of her testimony. You advertised on your company's website that you were an expert on postpartum issues, and Lindsey Clancy came to you because of that ad that you were an expert on postpartum issues. He then asks doctor Jennifer Tuff's are you an expert in postpartum Lily? Her response, I maybe I don't know. No, I think it depends on what you define an expert.
00:08:19
Speaker 3: As holy hell.
00:08:22
Speaker 1: We're done. She's done. Rogues completely discredited this woman in a matter of minutes. And then look, those were a couple of moments. This went on for hours. He beat out this into our heads robes. I don't know how this didn't further the defense's defense that she was not getting the help she needed. It's one thing to not get the right diagnosis of the right treatment. She wasn't talking to the right people. You all gave her someone fresh out that gait Robes. That makes like I am now even more depth, Like wow, I'm like this woman had access to the best health and the best healthcare. Did she the person taking care of her had a month of experience? Robes? Is that fair? Is that okay? No?
00:09:15
Speaker 2: And also leading up to that one month really didn't have the in person patient experience that especially I would imagine a psychiatrist. There were so many things you have to read about someone. So the next comes the next big jaw dropping reveal. He gets her to admit and none of us knew this. At least I didn't know this. I don't believe you did either, that doctor Jennifer Tough's in all those months of treating Lindsay Clancy never once met Lindsay Clansen in person. The first time she ever was in the same room as Lindsay Clancy was yesterday, Monday, August tenth, in a courtroom. Everything she did with her was all on zoom for telemedicine.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: Is never gonna get a reason for why that had to be the case, no, saying that in the you know what, it wasn't just and this is where this was really effective. Robes. He could have left it at. All of the meetings were on telehealth, all of the meetings were done via zoom, All of them were on the computer screen, which he referred to so many times. He said, so, you talked to her on the little TV. He kept saying that, and she would say the computer screen. I think he did that for emphasis. He kept doing it over and over.
00:10:32
Speaker 2: And in the one month that you've been on the job. Oh, he reiterated all of this in the preface of many of his questions.
00:10:38
Speaker 1: He could have left it at you only saw her on the little TV, but he made her say that the first time I've ever in my life been in a room, but this woman is today. Robes.
00:10:49
Speaker 3: That is effective, so effective.
00:10:52
Speaker 1: It's stunning that you all are up here giving us the expert advice about how this woman is doing and one and they gave us saw for twenty minutes, this woman saw on a little TV a few times and never was in a room with her.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: After having been on the job for one month, after having advertised that she was an expert in post.
00:11:14
Speaker 1: It did part of them that was her own advertisements.
00:11:17
Speaker 2: So yes, he pointed out what doctor Tuffs didn't do couldn't do. See Lindsay Clancy's hands, her legs, he said, he said, you couldn't give her a hug. She's like, well, that's not what we would normally.
00:11:29
Speaker 1: Which I thought was wild for her to respond in that way. It was just a matter of you know what, that was effective as well. I don't know if he set her up for that, but it was effective and that wow, you sound cold, like you're not really trying to care for.
00:11:42
Speaker 2: Her, right, And then he got her to acknowledge that she didn't administer something that he said was the standard of care for anyone who has postpartum signs of depression, et cetera is the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale.
00:11:56
Speaker 3: He was like, you never ever asked her these questions. There are ten questions.
00:12:01
Speaker 2: This is standard, and he starts asking all the questions, did you ask for this?
00:12:05
Speaker 3: Did you ask for this? Did you ask for this?
00:12:07
Speaker 2: And she had to say no, and it made her look like she completely dropped the ball when it came to diagnosing Lindsay klans.
00:12:15
Speaker 1: But I'm not familiar. None of us so familiar with this Edinburgh scale before this, right, he made it sound really important and really official. And to hear a trained expert up there say I'm not really familiar with it. I don't know any questions. I don't know how many questions it is. She sounds clueless.
00:12:32
Speaker 2: He kept making He kept asking questions in which she had to answer I don't know, I don't recall, and just she's fumbling and stumbling. And look, she is young, and she was absolutely intimidated and she was fumbling all over herself. Right before they broke for lunch, he started asking her about the medications, and he was pummeling her on her choices of zoloft, which is known to potentially presents suicidal ideations and folks create sleep issues. He's like, you have a woman who called the suicide hotline twice. By the way, he got her to admit, she didn't know that Lindsey Clancy had called the suicide hotline not once but twice, because she never asked her and she didn't offer it up.
00:13:18
Speaker 1: See that exchange. I thought the young lady had a chance there, and I guess it makes sense. She said, Hey, she's not someone who had told me about suicidal ideation or suicidal thoughts as we were talking. So that's not something I would ask. That kind of makes sense, But he got her to actually say, yeah, that does surprise me. And again it made her sound clueless, like I'm surprised.
00:13:40
Speaker 2: What it is it surprise you to learn, and she had to say yes, it would surprise.
00:13:46
Speaker 1: It made her sound even more clueless or disconnected to say no, I'm not aware is one thing.
00:13:50
Speaker 2: Say I'm surprised, correct, And then he gets her to admit, yeah, Well, he starts talking about how zoloft is known for creating sleep issues and suicidal ideations, and the fact that she had already tried zoloft after her second child and had to get off after a week, and yet this young doctor who is inexperience only talking to her over a zoom call maybe pushing, yes, pushing zoloft when clearly it would make no sense the way the defense attorney was describing it. And then he asked her whether this one Emma triptolene she prescribed pushed her over the edge, didn't it. I mean he literally is telling her the drug you prescribed pushed Lindsay Clancy to kill her children, pushed her over the edge, didn't it?
00:14:34
Speaker 3: Her response, I don't think so.
00:14:38
Speaker 1: Wow, it's a tough day.
00:14:40
Speaker 2: So then they break and they come back, and the prosecution gets to try to redirect and gets her to say, yes, I have treated people with psychosis.
00:14:50
Speaker 3: That Lindsay Clancy.
00:14:52
Speaker 2: Was completely denying sudicidal and homicidal ideation on January twenty third, the day before she killed her babies. But the the fence comes back and starts. This is where he really gets her on her notes about whether or not so this doctor, doctor Tuffs put in her notes that Lindsay Clancy had not hyper coma pressured speech.
00:15:14
Speaker 3: You remember this back and forth.
00:15:15
Speaker 1: Oh of course it was because he was standing right next to her. So the tension was actual physical tension to a certain agreement.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Yes, so he's saying, so she had pressured speech, and the doctor saying, no, this is just how I wrote my notes. I meant she was had non hyper non pressured speech. She's like, that's not what you wrote. She replies, I don't care what it says. I know what it meant. Did you write that, doctor, I wrote that, But you're misinterpreting my note, your interpretation is incorrect as opposed to yours. I have nothing further boom drop the mic.
00:15:51
Speaker 1: I don't know if. I don't know if that point landed, because I think it's possible that she did mess up up in the notes. I think, of course, I think that's fair. And he could also be right as well in how he's interpreting it. He could be. But the exchange was so important robes to see her. This was the one moment in all of the testimony robes where I felt like she did defend something that she knew she was right about. Yes, this was the one time which for me, I'm like, why weren't you standing by all of your conclusions during the half past six hours of testimony?
00:16:28
Speaker 2: And maybe that was his point to say, when you actually know you're right, you do get angry.
00:16:34
Speaker 3: The rest of the time. You cowered the rest of the time you were.
00:16:38
Speaker 1: She fought back. Yes, even he was standing there showing her the paper right next to her, and she even postured like she was sitting up.
00:16:46
Speaker 3: She was expression she was so angry.
00:16:49
Speaker 2: But I will say that, and I say, poor young woman was beaten up on the stand.
00:16:54
Speaker 1: Wanted to buy a drink and give a hook.
00:16:56
Speaker 3: I said, She's going.
00:16:56
Speaker 2: To go home and drink the biggest glass of wine or maybe an entire bottle. That was how tough it was for her on the stand yesterday. And when we come back, we're going to tell you about the second witness.
00:17:08
Speaker 3: Only that's all.
00:17:08
Speaker 2: They got to the second witness who took the stand yesterday. She'll be back on the stand today and and and welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. It was a heck of a day in court yesterday in the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. And we told you about her psychiatrist, her young and yes, inexperienced psychiatrist. Up next was a psychiatric nurse practitioner. Her name was Julie Paul and she worked with Lindsay Clancy's then mother in law, so Patrick Clancy's mom and Susan asked if she would help talk with Lindsay.
00:17:50
Speaker 3: So she kind of basically hit all the.
00:17:53
Speaker 2: Points that so many other witnesses have testified to for the prosecution that Lindsay Clancy was not so, she was not homicidal, and the really only major concern for her was just that she was not able to sleep. And had generalized anxiety.
00:18:09
Speaker 3: And that was pretty much it.
00:18:12
Speaker 2: And that was a quick few minutes of testimony by Julie Paul. And look, she is now going to be cross examined by the defense when court begins today.
00:18:23
Speaker 1: Hold on to your butts. This guy is something now. He even got to a point yesterday that you felt like, okay, bro, just just give her a break it And I don't know if it was because he was being so combative. It was just point after point after point was just so devastating for her. Every single thing was some damning detail about her work. And that couldn't have felt good. This young lady. I mean, based on her education, robes and whatnot, she's probably is she thirty yet I don't.
00:18:53
Speaker 2: I'm trying to think so twenty two, twenty four.
00:18:58
Speaker 3: I mean she might be right at about yeah.
00:19:00
Speaker 2: I was trying to remember when my brother ended up becoming actually a practicing doctor.
00:19:04
Speaker 3: It is close to thirty. But she's young. I mean, she's very young.
00:19:08
Speaker 2: And when you have someone who is in a life or death situation, oh.
00:19:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's three years ago.
00:19:12
Speaker 3: If she was younger, it's a hell of a time.
00:19:15
Speaker 2: I just think about I was thinking about her starting off her medical career. I know how hard these doctors work to get to where they are to earn the degrees they have, and for very obvious reasons. You have to be the best of the best, the brightest. And to know that this was one of her very first cases, that's tough. That's demoralizing. I mean, that's something that could be career ending for a doctor.
00:19:37
Speaker 1: That was the word I was going to use, Babe. She just started out, what's the worst thing you can possibly do? This is what you're supposed to do. Protect people from themselves, protect the environment, protect their loved ones, protect the general community from someone who might be a danger. This is what you're dealing with. There's a very serious profession. She's in robes and she had a client that went on and killed three kids.
00:19:58
Speaker 2: Yes, and I think I was thinking just about the weight of that on her, on her shoulders, because look, when you're when you're a doctor of any kind, you know that lives are in your hands. And I'm not trying to minimize what psychiatrists do, but they could they perhaps feel a little bit less of that pressure in terms of just how many people die that you're actually treating as a psychiatrist versus when you're in an er room or dealing with cancer patients. Death is a huge part of what you're facing each and every day. I wonder, I mean, sure psychiatrists deal with this, but right off the bat, one of your very first patients, this is the outcome that is so difficult for a young doctor, a starting off on her career. And that was also in my mind just making imagining the weight she must feel and the guilt she must feel about what happened, or maybe she's disassociated from it, and you learn to do that and you learn to have a separation. I know so many positions of police and doctors. You have to have a way to compart mentalize all of this. But it just I felt for that young lady.
00:21:03
Speaker 1: Perhaps a woman came to her for help.
00:21:07
Speaker 3: And she did she fail her? And that was absolutely what the defense was.
00:21:11
Speaker 1: How could she? How could you not say or feel that you failed someone who went on to do that. How could you not You're going to ask yourself, what did I miss? What did I not see? What did I not prescribe? What did I prescribe too much of what did I do wrong? Should I have had her come into the all these things, man and a lot of people saw her. Babe. That's the husband, I mean, Robes, the husband was right next to her. I'm still kind of shocked that it wasn't more evident to him that there was an emergency in the house. Not again, not criticizing any of these folks with baby there was. She had a bunch of people around her who loved her. It sounds like she did.
00:21:46
Speaker 2: And then when we see everyone testify, at least all of these medical or these healthcare professionals, and obviously they have their reputations to uphold and they don't want to appear as if they did anything wrong, So you have to take that with a grain of salt as well. But each one of these metal professionals have gotten up on the stand one after another, and all of them, including Lindsay Clancy's friends, Patrick Clancy's friends, all saying they did not see any signs of psychosis, and none of them thought that she was imminently going to harm herself or her children.
00:22:17
Speaker 3: And that is of note.
00:22:18
Speaker 2: Now today the judge did tell the jurors that they may have a little late start because he needs to work.
00:22:24
Speaker 3: Out an issue with the attorneys.
00:22:25
Speaker 2: They're going to go over first thing in the morning, the defense's request to bring in a witnessed. We don't know what that witness is, but there's some objection by the prosecution about a defense witness that they want to call and look the prosecution, I mean, the defense has to cross examine this nurse practitioner today. But it's unclear how much longer the prosecution will go for the rest of the day. But we know that they are nearing the end of their case. We are it could happen today where they rest the case. Maybe it's tomorrow, but we shall see. And yes, when we know that the day begins with the defense cross examination, we know that it most likely will not be boring and what we will be watching, we always appreciate you listening everyone.
00:23:07
Speaker 3: I made me Roeboch alongside TJ. Holmes. We'll talk soon.