July 30, 2026
Is Grey Divorce on The Rise Because of Bad Communication?
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RSS Feed Jana Kramer is talking to veteran marriage counselor Dr. Emerson Eggerichs and his daughter Joy about the importance of effective communication to maintain a healthy relationship, and why you can’t bring your past into your future if you want it to succeed.
Plus, they tell us about their new children’s book that is perfect for any parent going through divorce with young kids!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
00:00:17
Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today, I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together, which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well, I am so excited to have I love a good father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad, how long have you How long have you been a counselor for Well.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years, and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and so that's been our focus.
00:01:05
Speaker 1: Yes, have you read the book? You read the book?
00:01:09
Speaker 3: Oh?
00:01:09
Speaker 2: Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that I have to have my wife read the book eventually, but I wrote Love and Respect.
00:01:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need to read this book because it's so interesting how like what women want versus what men and how they receive their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until I read the book.
00:01:43
Speaker 2: So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing.
00:01:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen, we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago, and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared, and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time?
00:02:24
Speaker 2: No?
00:02:24
Speaker 1: But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing. Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here, let's skim this.
00:02:41
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
00:02:42
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now, thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed. But he when we first were dating, he was like, I didn't I didn't want to read the book because I didn't want to feel like I was trying to like work an angle, you know. And so he literally was just reading it last week and he kept putting it down and being.
00:03:02
Speaker 1: Like, man, I get it.
00:03:04
Speaker 4: I get why this has sold over two million copies. I get it. It's so good. And I can hear your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad has these different phrases that really stick in your brain that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses. And we had date night last night and some things happened, and he was like, not to use a line from your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose.
00:03:24
Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go.
00:03:28
Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I think that's none of us are perfect, and that is the message that my parents have always taught me, to give grace to people and to assume goodwill about other people.
00:03:40
Speaker 1: But we need we.
00:03:41
Speaker 4: All need the message, you know, and we all need to come back to these communication principles that I've learned from my parents that we write about in this kid's book, that we did together, just over and over and assume goodwill about other people.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that as well? Well?
00:04:00
Speaker 2: We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect book and chased me around the house saying, what would you say to a husband treating his wife the way you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy. But we do that because it was true, but also because I think people have this idea that everybody has a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the key is how do we rebound? How do we repair when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer to them.
00:04:33
Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But when it refers to the part two of things right, being in another marriage, what do you think is one of your biggest tips and tools for people that are are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't get let's say love and respect in the past, and I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself up again. You know, what can they do to open their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the next relationship.
00:05:18
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to strangle my mother to death when I was two and a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took my sister and me, and left for five years. I talk about me being the wounded healer as a result of that. And so when you go through trauma like that, who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need, bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill, you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear. But my mission. People have asked me, what is the key to you know, you think the problems in marriage? I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill, is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin, You know that there is basic good will, then I believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah, and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now, there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most people in those initial stages, we just are on two different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective. And just as you reference, there are different ways of interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we are just missing each other. And then I can talk more about that, and then the result of that is that we get upset, we get angried with each other, and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult. I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So it must be that you don't care and I don't matter.
00:07:12
Speaker 1: Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last husband and the things that he did to me, you know, like I but sometimes I will place him in a place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why am I reacting in a way like he did.
00:07:47
Speaker 3: X, Y or Z. No.
00:07:48
Speaker 2: It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we need to have a conversation about how we're going to have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay, in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you, It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project on to you something that's not true. But I need some grace being given to me during that time, and can we kind of talk about that at some point. Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences or the Is that right? I did for teny years.
00:08:33
Speaker 4: I directed their conferences right out of college and then out of that, you know, I was kind of just the event planner. But because I worked the book table and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting, I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man, I wish we would have had this twenty years ago, if only I knew then what I know now. So for about almost a decade, then I worked with my parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic. I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age. So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it.
00:09:09
Speaker 1: Do you play Uker? Oh?
00:09:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class?
00:09:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing.
00:09:21
Speaker 4: But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family all lived to Grand Rapids.
00:09:24
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just exuding there you go. I love that.
00:09:31
Speaker 4: But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether it was it was kind of a demographic of people who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married, because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh, you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so I was trying.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: To speak to that.
00:09:48
Speaker 4: So that was that was I worked with them for many years and my and my dad and I have joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm his literary agent and we just wrote a book together.
00:09:57
Speaker 1: But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book. I do want to ask one question because a lot of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know, people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you seen that trend as well or is it something where it's do people just they lost communication or why do you think at that age it's like people are wanting to just be alone or start over.
00:10:45
Speaker 2: No, I mean this is a burden that I have because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean, at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments, the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of that kind of pain. And I used to watch my mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but I just felt like they were missing each other. And how is it the two people who really care about each other early on end up coming to this point where someone said to me the other day in her counseling, and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him, And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And so there is this I think heartache out there, and my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later, and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean, it really did change for the better. And so that's part of my life message. I always am hopeful that it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair, because you're going to end up very long when you're eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want to do something premature here. You want to think long term here, and what does it mean to invest in relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship which you're hoping.
00:12:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was it for the kid's book?
00:12:08
Speaker 4: Or my mom?
00:12:09
Speaker 3: Oh? Really?
00:12:11
Speaker 4: Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago talking about just his next books and projects, and and my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know, I related, you should do a kid's book about these communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough, which is childhood stories that he told me in you know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at five o'clock.
00:12:32
Speaker 1: You mean from September to basically Easter like our last Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a mom of three so and we love we love a good kid's book. I love too when there is a lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed with this one book and at the very end he I don't know why he loves it so much. But every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like I want to like have him just like walk away with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my husband and I both are like, I don't like it. Like we got we gotta hide this one on the shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what is like what is the overall theme? I mean I know what it is, but like give our listeners, like why should the mamas out there get this book.
00:13:24
Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided to you know, we both care about these communication principles that are pulled from a book that he wrote called Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak or write an email or whatever, is it true, is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so this is something this is a message that he shared with me when I was in my twenties and we were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with me when I was in middle school in high school, but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and you know, really needed to get a hold of how I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and put my foot in my mouth. So we were so really these principles we want to get to parents, you know, because we really think that it will actually help them romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what, it probably would change the world if kids started learning these principles young. And I am like you, there are books that I'm like read to them and I'm like, this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah, and so the Land of Enough, which he made up when I was little, is just a place where anything I could imagine could come true. And there was these two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I now know as an adult that like he was trying to teach you. It was like the concepts of being and doing. So he was like trying to teach me all these like philosophical things but through a really really fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself, is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
00:14:58
Speaker 3: Is it clear?
00:14:59
Speaker 4: So that kids like me who might blurt learn when to think before they speak, or kids like his best friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up to have the confidence to do so.
00:15:09
Speaker 1: I love that and I feel like I could really use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven year old because the words that they're saying back to each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice to say to your sister like it and it's and I don't that's only really the words that I have to say from it, and instead I can be like, is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times, I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay, what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can stop the name calling or the the choice words.
00:16:00
Speaker 4: Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent of three three years old, six years old, and seven years old, and I can sit them on the couch and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know, like if we're actually because they need to hear it over and over and over, but it will sink in if it's in a story form and a visual reference point. So one of the other things besides those four principles that we want to become a household phrase is can I get a do over? So the title is Biga gets a due.
00:16:28
Speaker 1: I love that because we do make mistakes. I say it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her shit on you, Like I asked you four times to put your shoes away and you did not, so by the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell. I'm sorry. Yeah, totally.
00:16:42
Speaker 4: I mean the amount of times that I have to My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like a child. And so that phrase helps me when I can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here, you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a do over?
00:16:58
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the do over? Then is it just they get a chance to basically redo it again.
00:17:04
Speaker 4: Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in. I don't mean to be taking over, but I think sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know, that's a practice we want to have in our family. But we were on a podcast recently where it's a mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry, will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who have different environments that they've grown up or just even on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing, one might do another, and so do over feels like it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad and I we got into a little thing this spring and he like came to me with like a twinkle in his eye and he was like, can we get a do over? And we both started laughing because we have the reference point of this book, and so we just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know, you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't you why don't you be like Biga and go to your brother and I and say can we get a do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them.
00:18:11
Speaker 1: I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic. I think it's you know, I had a difficult father daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay, how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know, and like wow, how why is he the way that he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh, it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm curious and I want to ask you this too. Is I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like, I see that so much because I was also very anxiously attached, Like that was something that I was like, I have a huge problem in that area. And then when I witness it in him. It honestly drives me nuts, you know, and he doesn't understand what it is or and I try to explain it to him, and I'm like, you just we can have silence, we can have him. You don't have to make up for lost time, like we're okay, you know. But it's it's interesting because I don't know with that generation fifties plus, do they want to hear the therapy things, because I almost feel like they kind of look at us like, oh, yeah, you've done the therapy, you know, you know, the stuffy Do they want to taken that information? I guess I don't know.
00:19:52
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question. I think that's kind of the first time that question has been asked that way. You know. I think of my own dad, you know, the baby. I mean, you didn't even you didn't.
00:20:02
Speaker 1: Even go there, you didn't even say I love you, Like I don't even remember my mom's yeah, saying like I love you to my mom.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: Yester day I was twenty nine. I still remember on the phone my dad was talking to me and he said I love you, And I said to myself, that's the first time I've heard him say that to me.
00:20:17
Speaker 1: Same with my mom. When you got divorced. It was like those shoes are those first time I ever heard I'm like what, I'm like, I say it ten million times a day to my kids.
00:20:25
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, no, But I think you're you know, I don't know your father, but there is an insecurity that he has that he's probably felt, like, as you just said, he failed you. He's wondering if you, you know, hold that against him. I mean, I don't know the dynamics there, but I think this challenge for all of us is part of the emotional intelligence is self awareness and coming to the point of looking at the strengths, looking at the vulnerabilities, and being able to continue to grow in that. And I think that we have some real potential for great wisdom. I applaud that the question is how do we deal with our parents? And this is where you're seeing younger kids are canceling their mom and dads because, you know, they feel hurt by their mom and dad. Their poor mom and dad are hurtful, they feel offended by mom and dad, Their poor mom and dad are offensive. But is that the truth? I mean, are your parents really good will people who are trying the best. My mother used to always say to me, your daddy doesn't know how to be a daddy. His daddy died in the nineteen eighteen Flew epidemic when he was three months old. Your daddy does not know how to be a daddy. She continued to express empathy toward the very man who she was separated from for many years. And I one day I realized that was a gift that she gave to me, that she was empathetic toward this. And so I never had hostility toward my father, and there was a recognition that he had his limitations and that he didn't have a daddy. Did I tell you that? And so the same thing with you. And I think this is the challenge. Instead of judging people, let's extend empathy to them, which is a real sign of your wisdom. I mean that needs to be applauded. And I'm burdened about the younger generation that is not empathetic toward the shortcomings of their moms and dads.
00:22:05
Speaker 4: Now, well, I think you know Jana as someone, yes, who has been going to therapy on and off by myself or with my husband. And sometimes people are like you and your husband, you know, go to marriage counseling, even though your dad were all love and respect, and I'm like, we call it preventive medicine, and we love seeking counsel from my dad, but it's also good to have, you know, a neutral third party.
00:22:27
Speaker 2: Well, she also knows that I told her upfront that I'm always going to be fifty one percent in favor of Matt, her husband always going that direction. She didn't want to hear that. He didn't want to.
00:22:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother's spouse is because which I think actually is fair, because any person marrying into our family would assume or to any family, that the parent is going to side with their child. So I love and hate that they do that. Anyways, one of my a term that I'm sure you know from being in therapy that really helped me let go of some people in my life, if not from a like I'm never going to have a relationship with you, but actually to have freedom in that relationship, is the term radical acceptance. Hell yeah, yeah, And I just like when my therapist defined that for me. For some I just was I really wanted to mend the relationship, and I finally got to a point where I was like I can't change them, and I'm just going to radically accept who they are and as a person of faith, just give grace to them. It doesn't mean that I have to have unreasonable boundaries or you need to protect myself in a way. But I actually found that I didn't need to protect myself as much anymore when I gave them radical acceptance. And I think that's something that I would hope for our generation who has parents who won't go to therapy, like my dad's saying, just outside of really being evil or really need to separating yourself. I just feel like a lot of people are going to have their parents get to their deathbed and they were going to regret all those years that they set way too strong of boundaries just because their parents didn't operate the way that they did in their enlightened having gone to counseling self.
00:24:02
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I you know, I reflect on that even myself. I had a huge blowout, you know, last year with my mom, and I think a lot of it was my own expectations of who I wanted her to be and of who I thought she was going to be as a grandparent, you know, or as a mom, like or the things that I wanted, And it was like I can either hold on to this like steak and be like, Nope, I don't want a relationship with you because you're not giving me what I want and you don't want to go in a girls shore with me like that, like and I'm just and I just was like, or I accept that she is who she is and the times we've had and that she is my mother and the like the grandma of my children and we can have still good times together and doesn't have to look how I thought it was going to look. And I think it's it's it's like a sad but yet okay, like we're great. She just came to the lake House in Alabama and we have we've had a great time. And it's just I but I put so much like I'm going to steak on my boundaries and I'm and then I'm like this is this actually more exhausting to be angry at someone who that's not who they're that's not who they are.
00:25:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:25:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, the word freedom came to mind when you were explaining just how you felt in the first situation versus the second.
00:25:13
Speaker 1: Sorry dad, what we're saying?
00:25:14
Speaker 2: No, I mean I created this analogy years ago about, you know, a son who's very, very upset about his father and because his father pushed him off this cliff and fell on the rocks, was knocked out in the hospital, and they could never really find the father, and so for years hanging on. My dad pushed me off a cliff. But there was a helicopter pilot who videotaped the whole thing, and his father's father was in the woods with a shotgun, and Lewis his father in the back, and his father fell forward and pushed him off the cliff and then went into the open sea, and the grandfather went in the woods. And I used that analogy to say, it's helped me to be empathetic toward people who are inflicting pain upon me, because quite often there was another generation and if you will sit down with him and pull out that story, you'll find explanation as to why they've made decisions the way they've made it, and quite often it's self protective. They were so deeply hurt that they made a commitment never again, and of course now then we suffer the consequences of that in the next generation. And that image really helped me let go of my father and forgive him. But that doesn't mean you excuse the wrongdoing, and it doesn't mean that I wasn't the wounded healer. I tell people, you know, they sent me to a military school at age thirteen. I was there for the next five years. I wet the bed until I was eleven. I tell people, probably that's more information you want to know. But there was a moment when I picked up a butcher knife and I told Mom I was probably about eleven, I'm going to stab dad. I'm going to kill him. And she freaked out. She had two businesses, very successful woman, and I realized it was false. Bravado freaked her out. But I use those illustrations to say, look, people who have hurt us often have been hurt and how do we then deal with that without accepting that? But if I come if I lived my whole life as the victim, then then I'm damaged goods forever. I've got to come to a point where I how am I going to process this? And this is where your wisdom is so in refreshing. You're saying, you know, I'm gonna analyze this, I'm gonna look at this, I'm gonna I'm going to assess this and I'm going to accept some things here. I wish I could have my expectation fulfilled. I think there there could have been so many things that have come to me that would have been beautiful and enriching and meaningful, but I was deprived of those. But now, what what do I do with that?
00:27:31
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:27:42
Speaker 1: All this is such good in fragmation too, like for people that are starting over and you know, just to circle back to your book one last time before we close out, like why why? Also would this be a great book for people going through a divorce, you know, with young kids to read to them, because you know, I remember when I when my kids were younger and I was going through my last divorce. It was really hard to explain things to my kids too because they were at you know, they were just younger, but it was it was hard to you know, kind of hold on to hope too. So what would you say would be the hope within the book for someone that's divorced that has kids that's also reading the book.
00:28:20
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, first of all, we love our kids. We love them so much. We die for them. I used to say to the kids I love you so much I go into a burning car to save you. I mean, I love you that much. And so, apart from our own pain, we want our children and these four questions, is it true? Is a kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? The book that I wrote, we did a national research on this. These are all distinct. They don't bleed into each other. They're like four legs on a table. These are very powerful concepts, and as parents, we want what's best for our children. And so the question we're asking is do I want my child to lie? Do I want them to be unkind? Do I want them to say things that aren't necessary? Do I want them to go around being unclear? No parent would say yes to that. So I think we're giving this to them as a gift apart from our own trauma, our own pain. And I think as adults that sometimes is unfair. Sometimes we have to be the generation that breaks the curse that we are the victims of somebody else. But let's make a decision as the adult in the room not to put our children through that. So it's a standalone opportunity, and that would be the first thought that comes to my mind. I don't know if that answers what you're asking.
00:29:26
Speaker 1: No, it's great and I love it, and you can pre order be it gets to do over now and it comes out on August eighteenth, and I have so many more questions and I'm so lucky that I get to steal you again for wind down because I've just been writing notes. I feel like it's a good day of therapy. So thank you for coming on. I'll do part two. Yes, and are you really going through it and need some advice of feeling lost in your divorce process? Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the infos in the show notes. Follow us on socials, I do part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Thank you guys so much for coming on.
00:29:59
Speaker 2: Thank you to you extract fo exct F
Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two. It's your host Jana Kramer. Today, I've got a father daughter duo who have a lot of experience in the world of relationships, from marriage conferences to counseling. My guest joy Eggerich and her father, doctor Emerson Egerich, have also co authored a children's book together, which I can't wait to talk about. So let's dive in. Well, I am so excited to have I love a good father daughter duo. This is so cute. I always I'm interested to in y'allsen dynamic because we'll just say, doctor dad, how long have you How long have you been a counselor for Well.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: We've been doing marriage focused issues since nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, my wife nine. Yeah, we've been married over fifty three years, and we do a conference called Love and Respect, and so that's been our focus.
00:01:05
Speaker 1: Yes, have you read the book? You read the book?
00:01:09
Speaker 3: Oh?
00:01:09
Speaker 2: Did I write the book? Yes. I sometimes joke that I have to have my wife read the book eventually, but I wrote Love and Respect.
00:01:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that is that is one of the books that has been so incredibly helpful in my marriage that our therapists actually yeah, like he's like you guys need to read this book because it's so interesting how like what women want versus what men and how they receive their love, you know, And it's like I don't. I just didn't really it didn't lock in for me until I read the book.
00:01:43
Speaker 2: So thank you for that, Well, thank you for sharing.
00:01:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really I really appreciate that. And then Joy as the daughter, I'm just curious to you because I love the dynamics of and I actually have therapy today with my my personal therapist. But you know, I'm always like, please tell me that you guys aren't just like perfect, and that it's not like you're communicating it like just so great, so perfectly all the time, because like, listen, we just had a couple's therapy a couple of weeks ago, and I'm like, listen, did I say it exactly how my toolbox of words, like, you know, what's really coming up for me right now is that I'm feeling, you know, scared, and I make up that you're blah blah blah. And it's like, did I communicate it properly in that time?
00:02:24
Speaker 2: No?
00:02:24
Speaker 1: But I look at my therapist and I'm like, do you communicate it all the time perfectly to your wife and joy as like the daughter of witnessing this thing. Do you sometimes look at the Love and Respect Book or whatever else your doctor your dad is doing and being like, Dad, let's like go through the chapters here, let's skim this.
00:02:41
Speaker 2: That's exactly right.
00:02:42
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, no, it's so funny because my husband, we've been married for ten years, okay, and he is just now, thank you, just now reading the book. And he felt embarrassed. But he when we first were dating, he was like, I didn't I didn't want to read the book because I didn't want to feel like I was trying to like work an angle, you know. And so he literally was just reading it last week and he kept putting it down and being.
00:03:02
Speaker 1: Like, man, I get it.
00:03:04
Speaker 4: I get why this has sold over two million copies. I get it. It's so good. And I can hear your dad's voice, and he's even last night. My dad has these different phrases that really stick in your brain that you might remember, like stepping on each other's air hoses. And we had date night last night and some things happened, and he was like, not to use a line from your dad's book, but you just stepped on my air hose.
00:03:24
Speaker 1: I was like, oh boy, here we go.
00:03:28
Speaker 4: But no, I mean, I think that's none of us are perfect, and that is the message that my parents have always taught me, to give grace to people and to assume goodwill about other people.
00:03:40
Speaker 1: But we need we.
00:03:41
Speaker 4: All need the message, you know, and we all need to come back to these communication principles that I've learned from my parents that we write about in this kid's book, that we did together, just over and over and assume goodwill about other people.
00:03:55
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Do you have any thoughts on that as well? Well?
00:04:00
Speaker 2: We refer to it as negative encouragement when we do our Love and Respect conferences two day event, I share the story when Sarah picked up my Love and Respect book and chased me around the house saying, what would you say to a husband treating his wife the way you're treating me right now? And the crowd goes crazy. But we do that because it was true, but also because I think people have this idea that everybody has a perfect relationship out there except for us. So the key is how do we rebound? How do we repair when we have these heated fellowship moments? As I refer to them.
00:04:33
Speaker 1: Well, I know I'm going to be lucky enough to have you guys on my podcast wind Down too, so I'm going to hold a couple of those questions. But when it refers to the part two of things right, being in another marriage, what do you think is one of your biggest tips and tools for people that are are hesitant to start over to go Okay, I didn't get let's say love and respect in the past, and I'm afraid to step into this chapter or open myself up again. You know, what can they do to open their hearts up but also to prepare themselves for the next relationship.
00:05:18
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question, And I mean when we've been hurt obviously, when there has been rejection, when there has been that kind of pain. My dad attempted to strangle my mother to death when I was two and a half. I witnessed that, and my mom separated, took my sister and me, and left for five years. I talk about me being the wounded healer as a result of that. And so when you go through trauma like that, who isn't going to be very apprehensive about getting into a relationship and subjecting yourself to that again, And that's a very serious question, and certainly it's one that I feel deeply about, because there are bits of skill you need, bits of knowledge you need just a little skill, a little knowledge. But if you don't kind of have that skill, you don't have that knowledge, or you've tried that and didn't work. I mean, then people get into a point where they really get fearful, and they're overcome by that fear. But my mission. People have asked me, what is the key to you know, you think the problems in marriage? I think, well, given there's basically two good people with goodwill, is joy made reference that we didn't marry Hitler's distant cousin, You know that there is basic good will, then I believe oftentimes in the initial stages it's honest smiths understanding. Yeah, and so that honest misunderstanding is really the culprit. Now, there are wicked things that happen, violence that my dad implemented on my mother, that's a different scenario. But most people in those initial stages, we just are on two different planets. I call it a pink and blue perspective. And just as you reference, there are different ways of interpreting things, and we have good hearts, goodwill, but we are just missing each other. And then I can talk more about that, and then the result of that is that we get upset, we get angried with each other, and we keep thinking, you know, this isn't that difficult. I'm not asking you to do something that's difficult, So it must be that you don't care and I don't matter.
00:07:12
Speaker 1: Which is so hard because it's everyone's own past traumas being re inflicted. But it's not really them. It's just our own stuff too, you know, But yet we place it on them. Sometimes will remind myself that my now husband doesn't have to pay the debts of my last husband and the things that he did to me, you know, like I but sometimes I will place him in a place where I'm like, he didn't do that, So why am I reacting in a way like he did.
00:07:47
Speaker 3: X, Y or Z. No.
00:07:48
Speaker 2: It's very wise, I mean, that's very wise. I mean that's exactly the kind of wisdom and prudence a person needs to bring in these situations in the moment. It's not always easy. But obviously, stepping back and looking at this situation, I think you even referenced earlier sometimes we need to have a conversation about how we're going to have conversations. Yeah, you need to be able to say, Okay, in the event that this happens, it's unfair to you, It dishonors you. It's not fair for me to project on to you something that's not true. But I need some grace being given to me during that time, and can we kind of talk about that at some point. Not to belabor the point, but I don't feel it's honorable to you that I would, you know, somehow misrepresent.
00:08:24
Speaker 1: You, right, joy, did you because you lead the conferences or the Is that right? I did for teny years.
00:08:33
Speaker 4: I directed their conferences right out of college and then out of that, you know, I was kind of just the event planner. But because I worked the book table and got everybody kind of in line as people were waiting, I had tons of conversations with people. And the thing that I heard over and over and over is people saying, man, I wish we would have had this twenty years ago, if only I knew then what I know now. So for about almost a decade, then I worked with my parents and I had like a vision for eighteen to thirty five year olds when I was in that demographic. I'm now forty four, which, by the way, we both grew up in Michigan and we're about the same age. So fellow Michigander, Yeah, I love it.
00:09:09
Speaker 1: Do you play Uker? Oh?
00:09:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, yesh in Heisso we used to play it in class?
00:09:15
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, same, Yeah. Oh I love that. So which part of sorry, which part of Michigan East Lansing.
00:09:21
Speaker 4: But my dad is in Grand Rapids. Now my family all lived to Grand Rapids.
00:09:24
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's why I loved the book too. I just like knew the Michiganders coming out of that just exuding there you go. I love that.
00:09:31
Speaker 4: But so yeah, I was just trying to serve whether it was it was kind of a demographic of people who were dating, wanting to be married, or newly married, because I, you know, told my dad, like, these principles, uh, you know apply to everyone, but there's different things that our generation is facing that your generation didn't, and so I was trying.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: To speak to that.
00:09:48
Speaker 4: So that was that was I worked with them for many years and my and my dad and I have joked we're always doing some project together another. Now I'm his literary agent and we just wrote a book together.
00:09:57
Speaker 1: But yes, I'm so excited to chat about the book. I do want to ask one question because a lot of our ide listeners are, you know, either on their second third marriage, but a little bit older. And there's seems to be a rise in the gray divorce. You know, people fifty plus getting divorced. And I'm curious, have you seen that trend as well or is it something where it's do people just they lost communication or why do you think at that age it's like people are wanting to just be alone or start over.
00:10:45
Speaker 2: No, I mean this is a burden that I have because I think of my own mom and dad. I mean, at the end of the day, dead didn't have evil will here security. He had his issues, he had his moments, the incidences versus patterns, And so I came out of that kind of pain. And I used to watch my mom and dad and I didn't have a vocabulary, but I just felt like they were missing each other. And how is it the two people who really care about each other early on end up coming to this point where someone said to me the other day in her counseling, and she said, women are just telling me I've outgrown my husband and so she's leaving because I've outgrown him, And I think, well, what does that exactly mean? And so there is this I think heartache out there, and my mission is to say, well, let's reconsider. I'm so grateful that my mom and dad reconciled five years later, and I'm so blessed by that and they changed. I mean, it really did change for the better. And so that's part of my life message. I always am hopeful that it doesn't have to end in that kind of despair, because you're going to end up very long when you're eighty nine. There's a component here just from the research I have my doctorate in family studies. You don't want to do something premature here. You want to think long term here, and what does it mean to invest in relationship when you may not be getting from that relationship which you're hoping.
00:12:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. Whose idea was it for the kid's book?
00:12:08
Speaker 4: Or my mom?
00:12:09
Speaker 3: Oh? Really?
00:12:11
Speaker 4: Yeah? We were sitting around a couple of summers ago talking about just his next books and projects, and and my mom, you know, she just came, she goes, you know, I related, you should do a kid's book about these communication principles and said it in the Land of Enough, which is childhood stories that he told me in you know the dark Michigan winters when it was dark at five o'clock.
00:12:32
Speaker 1: You mean from September to basically Easter like our last Eastern Yeah, uh huh they I know snow not the Easter bunny. Okay, So give us like because I'm a mom of three so and we love we love a good kid's book. I love too when there is a lesson after it. Uh, it's actually funny. My husband, my son is obsessed. Is too a half and he's obsessed with this one book and at the very end he I don't know why he loves it so much. But every time I'm like, there's no lesson, there's no like I want to like have him just like walk away with something. And it's just kind of ends. And my husband and I both are like, I don't like it. Like we got we gotta hide this one on the shelf because he keeps asking for it, Like, so what is like what is the overall theme? I mean I know what it is, but like give our listeners, like why should the mamas out there get this book.
00:13:24
Speaker 4: Well, I think one of the reasons that we decided to you know, we both care about these communication principles that are pulled from a book that he wrote called Speak your Mind, which is asking yourself before you speak or write an email or whatever, is it true, is it kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? And so this is something this is a message that he shared with me when I was in my twenties and we were just talking recently, Like he probably shared it with me when I was in middle school in high school, but it didn't absorb. But in my twenties I really asked when I was in the joining the workforce, and you know, really needed to get a hold of how I communicate it because I'm someone who will blurt and put my foot in my mouth. So we were so really these principles we want to get to parents, you know, because we really think that it will actually help them romantically and in professionally. But we thought, you know what, it probably would change the world if kids started learning these principles young. And I am like you, there are books that I'm like read to them and I'm like, this is my numbingly boring or it's like super silly and funny, but there's no lesson or it's trying to teach a lesson and it's kind of heavy handed. Yeah, and so the Land of Enough, which he made up when I was little, is just a place where anything I could imagine could come true. And there was these two characters, Biga and Douga, who are best friends. I now know as an adult that like he was trying to teach you. It was like the concepts of being and doing. So he was like trying to teach me all these like philosophical things but through a really really fun and funny medium. And so that's what we tried to do, is teach the principles of it, asking yourself, is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?
00:14:58
Speaker 3: Is it clear?
00:14:59
Speaker 4: So that kids like me who might blurt learn when to think before they speak, or kids like his best friend Duga, who need to learn when to speak up to have the confidence to do so.
00:15:09
Speaker 1: I love that and I feel like I could really use this book too, honestly for my ten and seven year old because the words that they're saying back to each other, I'm constantly like, Jolie, that is hurtful. That hurts your brother or Jace, like that is not nice to say to your sister like it and it's and I don't that's only really the words that I have to say from it, and instead I can be like, is that kind? Like I mean, you know, at times, I'm like, you know, how would you like to feel like if you heard that, like that's not that doesn't really feel very nice. And then like to Jolie, I'm like, okay, what is the truth? Like obviously is do you think you're that? You know? And it's it's hard to, especially in those moments, have those kind of conversations. So I appreciate you helping, yeah, helping the parents figure out how to phrase it in a way that it hopefully can stop the name calling or the the choice words.
00:16:00
Speaker 4: Well, and two as a parent, I'm also a parent of three three years old, six years old, and seven years old, and I can sit them on the couch and tell them lessons all day long, but as you know, like if we're actually because they need to hear it over and over and over, but it will sink in if it's in a story form and a visual reference point. So one of the other things besides those four principles that we want to become a household phrase is can I get a do over? So the title is Biga gets a due.
00:16:28
Speaker 1: I love that because we do make mistakes. I say it all the time my kids, Sorry, Mommy lost her shit on you, Like I asked you four times to put your shoes away and you did not, so by the fourth time, I'm yelling and I didn't want to yell. I'm sorry. Yeah, totally.
00:16:42
Speaker 4: I mean the amount of times that I have to My dad always says, you know, you're supposed to be the parent in the room, but we oftentimes act like a child. And so that phrase helps me when I can apologize and say, Mommy was acting like a kid here, you know, and I'm really sorry. Can I get a do over?
00:16:58
Speaker 1: So talk to me about the do over? Then is it just they get a chance to basically redo it again.
00:17:04
Speaker 4: Well, it's I mean, and Dad, you can jump in. I don't mean to be taking over, but I think sometimes love sometimes it's really hard for kids to say I'm sorry, will you forgive me? And that is you know, that's a practice we want to have in our family. But we were on a podcast recently where it's a mom who speaks to adoptive and foster parents, and so sometimes you have your family rules of like we say sorry, will you forgive me? And you're bringing in children who have different environments that they've grown up or just even on the playground, you know, one family might do one thing, one might do another, and so do over feels like it's a really accessible way to kind of say I'm sorry and I messed up how I communicated and so it's just and it's for parents too. Like my dad and I we got into a little thing this spring and he like came to me with like a twinkle in his eye and he was like, can we get a do over? And we both started laughing because we have the reference point of this book, and so we just think it'll make it lighter, you know, for you know, you can say to your kid, like, hey, why don't you why don't you be like Biga and go to your brother and I and say can we get a do over? It's just a it's an easier lift for them.
00:18:11
Speaker 1: I love that though. That's very that's very sweet. And I love the fact too that the father daughter dynamic. I think it's you know, I had a difficult father daughter dynamic growing up. But I do believe that when you grow up and you start to learn more, like Okay, how is my dad's dad to my dad? You know, and like wow, how why is he the way that he is? You kind of stopped start stop, I stopped placing blame and just kind of and I'm not saying, oh, it's just who he is, Like, but I also I'm curious and I want to ask you this too. Is I feel like my generation, our generation, like we're in our forties, we've done therapy, or at least we've we've gone like I've been going for since my twenties, and I don't feel like our parents my yeah, yours and mind I'm sure your counselor so you have, but like maybe I don't know other friends of yours parents, Like I don't know anybody else that's ever done therapy or gone into therapy. And it's hard sometimes, Like when I'm with my dad, he's very like anxiously attached, and like, I see that so much because I was also very anxiously attached, Like that was something that I was like, I have a huge problem in that area. And then when I witness it in him. It honestly drives me nuts, you know, and he doesn't understand what it is or and I try to explain it to him, and I'm like, you just we can have silence, we can have him. You don't have to make up for lost time, like we're okay, you know. But it's it's interesting because I don't know with that generation fifties plus, do they want to hear the therapy things, because I almost feel like they kind of look at us like, oh, yeah, you've done the therapy, you know, you know, the stuffy Do they want to taken that information? I guess I don't know.
00:19:52
Speaker 2: No, that's an excellent question. I think that's kind of the first time that question has been asked that way. You know. I think of my own dad, you know, the baby. I mean, you didn't even you didn't.
00:20:02
Speaker 1: Even go there, you didn't even say I love you, Like I don't even remember my mom's yeah, saying like I love you to my mom.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: Yester day I was twenty nine. I still remember on the phone my dad was talking to me and he said I love you, And I said to myself, that's the first time I've heard him say that to me.
00:20:17
Speaker 1: Same with my mom. When you got divorced. It was like those shoes are those first time I ever heard I'm like what, I'm like, I say it ten million times a day to my kids.
00:20:25
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes, no, But I think you're you know, I don't know your father, but there is an insecurity that he has that he's probably felt, like, as you just said, he failed you. He's wondering if you, you know, hold that against him. I mean, I don't know the dynamics there, but I think this challenge for all of us is part of the emotional intelligence is self awareness and coming to the point of looking at the strengths, looking at the vulnerabilities, and being able to continue to grow in that. And I think that we have some real potential for great wisdom. I applaud that the question is how do we deal with our parents? And this is where you're seeing younger kids are canceling their mom and dads because, you know, they feel hurt by their mom and dad. Their poor mom and dad are hurtful, they feel offended by mom and dad, Their poor mom and dad are offensive. But is that the truth? I mean, are your parents really good will people who are trying the best. My mother used to always say to me, your daddy doesn't know how to be a daddy. His daddy died in the nineteen eighteen Flew epidemic when he was three months old. Your daddy does not know how to be a daddy. She continued to express empathy toward the very man who she was separated from for many years. And I one day I realized that was a gift that she gave to me, that she was empathetic toward this. And so I never had hostility toward my father, and there was a recognition that he had his limitations and that he didn't have a daddy. Did I tell you that? And so the same thing with you. And I think this is the challenge. Instead of judging people, let's extend empathy to them, which is a real sign of your wisdom. I mean that needs to be applauded. And I'm burdened about the younger generation that is not empathetic toward the shortcomings of their moms and dads.
00:22:05
Speaker 4: Now, well, I think you know Jana as someone, yes, who has been going to therapy on and off by myself or with my husband. And sometimes people are like you and your husband, you know, go to marriage counseling, even though your dad were all love and respect, and I'm like, we call it preventive medicine, and we love seeking counsel from my dad, but it's also good to have, you know, a neutral third party.
00:22:27
Speaker 2: Well, she also knows that I told her upfront that I'm always going to be fifty one percent in favor of Matt, her husband always going that direction. She didn't want to hear that. He didn't want to.
00:22:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, my brother's spouse is because which I think actually is fair, because any person marrying into our family would assume or to any family, that the parent is going to side with their child. So I love and hate that they do that. Anyways, one of my a term that I'm sure you know from being in therapy that really helped me let go of some people in my life, if not from a like I'm never going to have a relationship with you, but actually to have freedom in that relationship, is the term radical acceptance. Hell yeah, yeah, And I just like when my therapist defined that for me. For some I just was I really wanted to mend the relationship, and I finally got to a point where I was like I can't change them, and I'm just going to radically accept who they are and as a person of faith, just give grace to them. It doesn't mean that I have to have unreasonable boundaries or you need to protect myself in a way. But I actually found that I didn't need to protect myself as much anymore when I gave them radical acceptance. And I think that's something that I would hope for our generation who has parents who won't go to therapy, like my dad's saying, just outside of really being evil or really need to separating yourself. I just feel like a lot of people are going to have their parents get to their deathbed and they were going to regret all those years that they set way too strong of boundaries just because their parents didn't operate the way that they did in their enlightened having gone to counseling self.
00:24:02
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And I you know, I reflect on that even myself. I had a huge blowout, you know, last year with my mom, and I think a lot of it was my own expectations of who I wanted her to be and of who I thought she was going to be as a grandparent, you know, or as a mom, like or the things that I wanted, And it was like I can either hold on to this like steak and be like, Nope, I don't want a relationship with you because you're not giving me what I want and you don't want to go in a girls shore with me like that, like and I'm just and I just was like, or I accept that she is who she is and the times we've had and that she is my mother and the like the grandma of my children and we can have still good times together and doesn't have to look how I thought it was going to look. And I think it's it's it's like a sad but yet okay, like we're great. She just came to the lake House in Alabama and we have we've had a great time. And it's just I but I put so much like I'm going to steak on my boundaries and I'm and then I'm like this is this actually more exhausting to be angry at someone who that's not who they're that's not who they are.
00:25:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:25:07
Speaker 4: Yeah, the word freedom came to mind when you were explaining just how you felt in the first situation versus the second.
00:25:13
Speaker 1: Sorry dad, what we're saying?
00:25:14
Speaker 2: No, I mean I created this analogy years ago about, you know, a son who's very, very upset about his father and because his father pushed him off this cliff and fell on the rocks, was knocked out in the hospital, and they could never really find the father, and so for years hanging on. My dad pushed me off a cliff. But there was a helicopter pilot who videotaped the whole thing, and his father's father was in the woods with a shotgun, and Lewis his father in the back, and his father fell forward and pushed him off the cliff and then went into the open sea, and the grandfather went in the woods. And I used that analogy to say, it's helped me to be empathetic toward people who are inflicting pain upon me, because quite often there was another generation and if you will sit down with him and pull out that story, you'll find explanation as to why they've made decisions the way they've made it, and quite often it's self protective. They were so deeply hurt that they made a commitment never again, and of course now then we suffer the consequences of that in the next generation. And that image really helped me let go of my father and forgive him. But that doesn't mean you excuse the wrongdoing, and it doesn't mean that I wasn't the wounded healer. I tell people, you know, they sent me to a military school at age thirteen. I was there for the next five years. I wet the bed until I was eleven. I tell people, probably that's more information you want to know. But there was a moment when I picked up a butcher knife and I told Mom I was probably about eleven, I'm going to stab dad. I'm going to kill him. And she freaked out. She had two businesses, very successful woman, and I realized it was false. Bravado freaked her out. But I use those illustrations to say, look, people who have hurt us often have been hurt and how do we then deal with that without accepting that? But if I come if I lived my whole life as the victim, then then I'm damaged goods forever. I've got to come to a point where I how am I going to process this? And this is where your wisdom is so in refreshing. You're saying, you know, I'm gonna analyze this, I'm gonna look at this, I'm gonna I'm going to assess this and I'm going to accept some things here. I wish I could have my expectation fulfilled. I think there there could have been so many things that have come to me that would have been beautiful and enriching and meaningful, but I was deprived of those. But now, what what do I do with that?
00:27:31
Speaker 3: Yeah?
00:27:42
Speaker 1: All this is such good in fragmation too, like for people that are starting over and you know, just to circle back to your book one last time before we close out, like why why? Also would this be a great book for people going through a divorce, you know, with young kids to read to them, because you know, I remember when I when my kids were younger and I was going through my last divorce. It was really hard to explain things to my kids too because they were at you know, they were just younger, but it was it was hard to you know, kind of hold on to hope too. So what would you say would be the hope within the book for someone that's divorced that has kids that's also reading the book.
00:28:20
Speaker 2: Well, I'd say, first of all, we love our kids. We love them so much. We die for them. I used to say to the kids I love you so much I go into a burning car to save you. I mean, I love you that much. And so, apart from our own pain, we want our children and these four questions, is it true? Is a kind? Is it necessary? Is it clear? The book that I wrote, we did a national research on this. These are all distinct. They don't bleed into each other. They're like four legs on a table. These are very powerful concepts, and as parents, we want what's best for our children. And so the question we're asking is do I want my child to lie? Do I want them to be unkind? Do I want them to say things that aren't necessary? Do I want them to go around being unclear? No parent would say yes to that. So I think we're giving this to them as a gift apart from our own trauma, our own pain. And I think as adults that sometimes is unfair. Sometimes we have to be the generation that breaks the curse that we are the victims of somebody else. But let's make a decision as the adult in the room not to put our children through that. So it's a standalone opportunity, and that would be the first thought that comes to my mind. I don't know if that answers what you're asking.
00:29:26
Speaker 1: No, it's great and I love it, and you can pre order be it gets to do over now and it comes out on August eighteenth, and I have so many more questions and I'm so lucky that I get to steal you again for wind down because I've just been writing notes. I feel like it's a good day of therapy. So thank you for coming on. I'll do part two. Yes, and are you really going through it and need some advice of feeling lost in your divorce process? Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the infos in the show notes. Follow us on socials, I do part two and iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective. Thank you guys so much for coming on.
00:29:59
Speaker 2: Thank you to you extract fo exct F