“I’m Sorry” Final Words From Oldest Inmate Executed In FL; Should There Be An Age Limit On Executions?

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey, the folks, it is Wednesday, July twenty ninth, and how old is too old to be executed? Well, asked that to the state of Florida, because they think the age of eighty is just fine with that. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ, where Robes we wake up this morning and the oldest person ever executed in Florida state history happened last night.

00:00:26
Speaker 2: Yes, he died last night, just past six pm Eastern time, and he was in rough shape physically, in poor health and then year olds are I guess, yes exactly, and then executed for a crime he committed forty years ago.

00:00:45
Speaker 1: Robes, this is now because of an extraordinary day we saw in Florida, and really what has been an extraordinary couple of years and even extraordinary few weeks. Florida has set back to back to back records almost for the oldest person they've executed. Four year old was the oldest, and then after that another seventy four year old who happened to be a week or two older than that one, and now here we are an eighty year old in Robes, this has just happened in the matter of a few weeks. So what is going on, the answer really is it takes so long to go through the appeals process and now you finally have a governor who's clearing the roles.

00:01:22
Speaker 3: Yes.

00:01:23
Speaker 2: I think the reason why we have you could argue we have such old inmates being executed that we're actually setting records, is that they've been on death row for far longer than anyone anticipated or expected. And Governor DeSantis is doing something about it. He is saying, enough, we are going to actually do what we said we were going to do. We're going to complete the sentence and by doing so. Yes, he has some very elderly inmates sitting there on death row in Florida.

00:01:54
Speaker 1: Robes, I look through their role. They got about two hundred and forty two inmates on death row. At least four of them are eighty as we speak. One of them's eighty one years old.

00:02:05
Speaker 3: So they could set a new record soon.

00:02:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and most of these guys have robes exhausted their appeals. But it as it, it begs the question, now, robes, do we need to be executing people this old? That debate has been around, but Robes it is for at the forefront right now because of what has taken place in Florida where a guy eighty years old was executed last night. I didn't read any reports or they had any issues or anything in the death chamber, So it when according to plan or sometimes they have issues with veins and older folks and skin and all this stuff robes. How old is too old? It is it immediately? Does it feel immediately cruel before you even know his health condition? When you hear really an eighty year old man, we had to execute an eighty year old man?

00:02:51
Speaker 2: Look, I think, so this is a tough one, just because I happen to personally be against the death penalty. But I do believe if you have death penalty in place, I don't think it is no. I think what's cruel is having them wait and sit there and get execution dates and have things postponed, and just that mental anguish of not knowing and then knowing and then not knowing and just waiting around to die is I think the cruel and unusual part. I think if you're sentenced to death, I think, yes, you should be afforded obviously every opportunity to make sure that all appeals are allowed. But at a certain point it's to me unjust, unfair to the victims families and to the defendants, to the inmates to sit around for four decades waiting to die. I think that's the cruel and unusual part. You know what, That is the dual argument. I suppose when it comes to elderly that yes, one, we're putting them through all this punishment first of all by having them sit around and wait and wonder when they're going to die. And then Robes, you're eighty years old with healthy issues. That is the debate, and it will continue because we have an old and an aging population on death row, and it is because of our process. This guy is eighty years old, Dominicu o chacone last night, second oldest person ever executed in the US. Robes the one before that was twenty seventeen eighteen.

00:04:18
Speaker 3: And Alabama twenty eighteen, and he was eighty three years old.

00:04:23
Speaker 1: Goodness, that's a long time to be on death row. We want to mention though here before we get more into this debate about the age. Final words these are always fascinating. This is I guess tradition. At this point you could argue Robes, but his last words, he took the opportunity robes to say I'm sorry, and we don't hear that a lot, and we cover a lot of executions.

00:04:47
Speaker 2: Yes, but when they are uttered, when those words are uttered, oftentimes we do hear from the victims family. It doesn't take away the loss, it doesn't take away the pain, but it does give some closure and some peace to the victims family. So it's I always find it, at least on your way out to have something good that you left in the room, something you gave back to the victims' families. And a lot of times that is just a simple i'm sorry. And that is what O Chaconi did last night. He said, I'm sorry for the hurt I've caused my family. I know it don't mean much, but I'm sorry. I never meant to do what I did.

00:05:27
Speaker 1: Those were his last words his last meal. Robes, don't we don't necessarily see this a lot either. That kind of surprised me, but maybe as older gentleman had different tastes.

00:05:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not one you see often for a final meal. But he got eggplant, parmesan salad and corn bread.

00:05:45
Speaker 1: Huh okay, interesting way to put it. So that's what happened with him last night now before his execution, there was another execution yesterday in Florida, Yes, a rare double execution day. James Duckett was executed sixty eight years old. He was convicted in a for a murder of an eleven year old girl when he was a police officer. This was back in nineteen eighty six.

00:06:05
Speaker 2: Yes correct, also forty years ago, and he maintained his innocence till the very end. He claimed that it wasn't him, he didn't do it, never ever wavered on that I'm innocent line.

00:06:17
Speaker 3: But he did have an execution date set for March thirty.

00:06:21
Speaker 2: First, it was postponed because he got the courts to allow him to test some DNA. But the DNA wasn't enough, I believe, or the testing lab wasn't able to actually find enough to test it in the way that that lab could do it. So bottom line, it was inconclusive. Didn't didn't help him, didn't hurt him, but certainly got him another scheduled execution date. And yes, it was scheduled for the very same day as our eighty year old inmate as well, So two executions in one day and he went out without anything. He didn't have any final wordspe He had spoken a lot back in March when he thought he was going to die, and had written a whole There's actually a website where inmates can write letters and they can express themselves, they can talk about their time, and he had done all that, so I think maybe he had just figured he'd said enough, and he said nothing right before he died yesterday.

00:07:13
Speaker 1: And we never got an explanation from the governor of Florida why they scheduled two on the same day. They hadn't done that in sixty two years. Don't know why they decided to do it now again. Maybe they we all staff here, we might as well just keep them busy. Maybe it was that kind.

00:07:28
Speaker 2: Of It might have been efficiency, Like honestly, what I don't know what goes or what has to take place in a facility to prepare for an execution, but I know it's got to be obviously pretty significant. So they figured if they were already in that mode, might as well get another one in.

00:07:46
Speaker 3: It seems like that's what happened.

00:07:48
Speaker 1: Seems it seems roguesy right. Efficiency. Might it might even save some money by doing it this way and not having it have another day who knows, but they never told us. Again, here, Robes, we are you look at his list of issues at eighty years old, You're going to have some health problems. So are these health problems enough that you give him mercy? They didn't yesterday. But the argument with health problems, Robes, is whether or not it would cause undo or excruciating pain your health condition combined with whatever the legal excuse me, the lethal injection is they made a determination, courts made that. No, these didn't rise to the level.

00:08:27
Speaker 3: That's right.

00:08:28
Speaker 2: He had heart problems, poor kidney function, He had an enlarged prostate arthritis, degenerative disc disease. So yeah, I mean that's I think all of those issues are pretty common among eighty year olds. And so yes, he was facing some health issues. And look, some people could say getting the death penalty, having the lethal injection was just a way to ease all of that because that all went away when he died. I mean there are people who could make that argument as well.

00:09:00
Speaker 1: Do you make that one?

00:09:00
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't.

00:09:02
Speaker 2: I just I think that if if this is the punishment in that state, I think the cruel and unusual part is having someone waited forty years, so.

00:09:10
Speaker 1: Cruel and unusual. Is it cruel and unusual just because he's eighty Is it cruel and unusual just because somebody's seventy five? What about if he's eighty two, What about he's seventy four? Rose, the Court I had to in looking at all this stuff up, I've been fascinated by this. The court, the Supreme Court has set precedent when it comes to age. But Rose, they've set precedent at the lower age. They have set in the case in two thousand and five that you cannot execute someone. It's cruel and unusual to execute someone if they committed the crime before the age of eighteen. Does that make it? Kind of makes sense? But that was the ruling after a seventeen year old in Missouri was convicted and sentenced to death. Rose and court case made it to the Supreme Court. They said no, and that's set the president. You cannot, if you committed a murder before eighteen, be put to death in this country.

00:10:05
Speaker 2: I think that that's a sound decision and I would absolutely one hundred percent support that. Look, obviously, if someone is violent and young, and we've seen unfortunately we've reported on plenty of these types of crimes. They need to be removed from society. They need to make sure that we are protected from them as a society. But I just think, yes, killing someone who committed even a horrific act murder, et cetera. And usually you have to have an aggravated murder in order to be even eligible for the death penalty. But yes, at that young of an age, I fully support not allowing anyone under the age of eighteen to face the death penalty.

00:10:44
Speaker 1: Then what do we do on the other end, on the higher end, do you set it at eighty You said it at eighty two, you said it at seventy five. Can you set an age limit that we don't execute people who are above the age of blank.

00:10:59
Speaker 3: When they commit the crime or when they've aged out the aged aged out in prison age. And that's different, right.

00:11:05
Speaker 2: I actually think if they committed the crime at a certain age at eighty four.

00:11:08
Speaker 3: That possibly I would be okay with that.

00:11:12
Speaker 2: I do think though, what would happen is if they had this, Okay, once you're eighty you can't be executed. You're going to have states lining people up at seventy nine and getting it out.

00:11:21
Speaker 3: So I just they'll be a way around it. I don't know. I mean, maybe they wouldn't.

00:11:26
Speaker 2: Maybe they would just go ahead and vacate the death penalty, the death sentence and switch over to a life in prison sentence.

00:11:32
Speaker 3: But I don't think they can do that.

00:11:34
Speaker 2: They can't undo what a jury did unless you're at the Supreme courter some higher cost correct.

00:11:39
Speaker 1: Body set to limit. I thought you were about to go to the other direction and say people were just going to start waiting out the system. All I have to do is wait until I get past I need my appeals to last until my eightieth birthday.

00:11:51
Speaker 2: Well, of course that would be going on with the defense attorneys on the other side of things, But I would imagine the States would say, all right, we got to do something about this.

00:12:00
Speaker 3: And look, I don't think that's a bad thing to to.

00:12:04
Speaker 2: Have a to not have so much time pass between the sentence and the actual carrying out of said sentence.

00:12:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, there are very few robes, and going through the list, there are very few I see between the date of sentence and the date of execution that are much below twenty years. And you just go through and read the history and there are some you'll find there are eleven years and fifteen years, but for the most part robes the last couple here we're talking about with thirty eight thirty eight years on death row. That's well, we're at the too long the families have made that's too long for everybody. But the process is the problem. The process is the problem. And you know what, we want to get it right, don't we don't we say, of course we've seen exonerations from death row. I mean, look, so in that regard, I'm like, Okay, take as much time as you need to get it right. But jeez, when when are you sure you got it right? Does it take forty years to be sure you got it right?

00:13:02
Speaker 2: I don't think in forty years you're going to find anything different than you would have in twenty years, or in ten years, or even in five years. And look, part of the reason why a lot of folks are against the death penalty is because it is not a deterrent, and partly because first of all, no one thinks they're going to get caught when they commit a crime, and no one's thinking about the punishment, typically when they're committing a crime like murder.

00:13:25
Speaker 3: But I do think that there's.

00:13:27
Speaker 2: Also this idea that we just several states don't actually follow through with the death penalty, and many of them figure, I got twenty years, thirty years, they're not going to kill me, or by the time they do, I'll be so old I won't care anyway. I mean, I really think that is a part of the reasoning behind why the death penalty doesn't even serve as a deterrent at this point.

00:13:49
Speaker 1: Would it if folks started being executed after their appeals were done in five years, I think in seven.

00:13:57
Speaker 3: Years, perhaps it would.

00:13:58
Speaker 2: I think it would change it change the way people view the death penalty. Yeah, and it would change the way perhaps people might think about a crime like murder.

00:14:09
Speaker 3: Now.

00:14:10
Speaker 2: Obviously, like I said, I don't think a lot of people are considering the consequences when they commit something like that. But I do think if it's something that is known that you're going to actually be killed, be executed within five years of your sentence, I do think that does up the ante. That does Yeah, I think that would scare a lot of folks.

00:14:30
Speaker 1: I do twenty five committing a crime, you're dead by thirty two after a conviction.

00:14:35
Speaker 2: I think that it could become a deterrent if it were used in that way.

00:14:39
Speaker 3: But we haven't seen that happen. I mean, what is the.

00:14:41
Speaker 2: Soonest someone has been executed after they've been.

00:14:46
Speaker 3: Sentenced to death.

00:14:48
Speaker 1: You know, I forgot I had this pulled up for you. This is just this year, the executions this year. How long were they on death row? I'm going to take it in order from the most recent thirty eight years, thirty eight, thirty nine, thirty twenty nineeen twenty one, twenty eighteen, seventeen thirty thirty sixteen eleven, thirty four, thirty three, eighteen, thirty five, twenty Jesus.

00:15:08
Speaker 2: So eleven is this is the quickest someone has actually been executed after they were sentence.

00:15:14
Speaker 1: And that was in Texas. That one was in tech Roes. That is not a deterrent. Now, that is a good argument for the people against the death penalty. It's not a deterrent. We're with you one hundred percent. But that is fascinating robes that folks are spending on average thirty years. It looks like almost by this list on death row.

00:15:31
Speaker 2: And look, when you're talking about waiting, it's interesting. We heard yesterday James Duckett who said nothing, who had been on death row for forty years. Former police officer who killed that eleven year old girl named Teresa Well, Teresa's mom has been waiting for forty years. She actually made a statement after he died yesterday, after he was executed, and she said, I'd like to thank everyone who has worked on this case for everything they have done. My family and I are glad this day is finally here because it's about justice for my daughter and remembering her, not the man who stole her future.

00:16:06
Speaker 3: And I think that's the point.

00:16:07
Speaker 2: Also, these these stories make big headlines because they've been behind bars for so long. Many of them, like James Duckett, maintained their innocence, and now the story is all about them instead of about the person who's I like the way she phrased that. I say, I like it because I do think it was very impactful to say, it's not about the man who stole my daughter's future. And I just I feel for the families, the victims' families in these cases, in these long waits, a lot of families don't make it to see this day, to see the day where the execution is carried out, where the sentence is actually finally carried out and they feel like they've received that justice for their loved one. So many people die before that day comes. That shouldn't be happening.

00:16:52
Speaker 1: Oh, that's a shame. You're right, and some for advocates who say get rid of the death penalty should just be life without parole. If you give somebody life without the possibility of parole, the family can move on. There is no appeals processed to do. There is no parole hearing you need to line up for. It's still over. It's over, even though that person is still alive. Give him somebody the death penalty. You just said thirty forty years you're waiting and don't have finality. Rose. In that regard, it does allow you to move on. Rose. I can't imagine every eighteen months getting a letter in the mail, hearing from the state of Missouri or Alabama or whatever else, hearing about another appeal, another appeal, another appeal. Oh, that is horrific, and that is cruel, and that is unusual. But stay here, we talk about how long people have been on death row. There is a record setter for how long, Yes, the longest anyone has ever stayed on death row in the United States and he's still in prison. We will explain that and also a quick refresher or maybe just a quick explainer about the process and why it takes so long to get from conviction to the death chamber.

00:18:14
Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone, as we continue to talk about executions, not just in the state of Florida, but certainly Florida had a banner day on Tuesday, executing two inmates in the same day, one of them eighty years old, making him the oldest inmate ever executed by the state of Florida. But before the break, we were just talking about the longest time anyone has spent on death row and where does this come from, which date it's coming to.

00:18:44
Speaker 1: It was out of Texas, actually the guy was on death row and it was just in twenty what you're going to have a twenty twenty one his sentence was changed to life in prison. So he has still been in prison an extra five years after he was on death row for forty five years.

00:19:02
Speaker 3: Death row for forty five years.

00:19:04
Speaker 1: He was on death row waiting to die. I believe at one point in nineteen eighty six he got close to being executed and something happened, but Ropes forty five years on death row. You know what ultimately happened here? They found him mentally incompetent.

00:19:18
Speaker 3: After forty five years.

00:19:19
Speaker 1: No, they knew it all the way along, that this was the argument all the way along, and then they finally came to a conclusion that you know what, we're never going to be able to execute this guy and say, let's just change the sentence because he wasn't mentally competent. But forty five years.

00:19:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's remarkable. And then never actually was executed.

00:19:34
Speaker 1: And never still alive and well in Texas as we speak. A reminder here we keep talking about Rodes. We just said that the banner day, as you said it for Florida. Sounds odd to say that, but yes, two executions in one day. We're gonna have three executions one day, but not in the same state coming up on August thirtie in two weeks, I believe it is. And those states aren't the ones we usually think about Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Alabama. When you told me there were three on one day, I started guessing. I said, definitely, Florida.

00:20:02
Speaker 3: You're like Florida, Florida, Florida.

00:20:04
Speaker 1: And then Texas and maybe South Carolina wrong on all accounts. So those states are getting involved the process here Florida, Florida, Florida. Wasn't that a Carl Rove?

00:20:13
Speaker 2: Uh?

00:20:13
Speaker 3: Yes, well that's when it came about.

00:20:16
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, with his whiteboard. Yes he still makes appearances.

00:20:20
Speaker 2: Where is carlov Now wait, behind the scenes somewhere he's Oh.

00:20:25
Speaker 1: He's always engaged. Okay, anyway, moving on here, Okay, last thing, you want to talk about the process again, Ropes, I didn't know all this, but this is why it takes so long. Step one, you get a direct appeal. That's the automatic one. As soon as you're convicted, you get a direct appeal, it's automatic to your state. After that, if that does not work, you have what's called a post conviction review or habeas corpus petition that is all at the state level. This is where Robes they say, you can bring up issues that weren't directly a part of the trial, meaning you had some jury misconduct you didn't know about, some new evidence came up, this wasn't tested, That was misconduct by the prosecute, that kind of stuff. Now, if you lose in that post conviction review, You can then appeal to the state appellate court. If that doesn't work, now Robes, you get a whole new round with the federal court. You can apply for a federal habeas corpus petition. If you lose that, you can turn to the federal appellate courts Robes. And if all that doesn't work, you have the Supreme Court. None of this stuff moves quickly. What court moves quickly?

00:21:27
Speaker 3: No court moves quickly. And so, yes, how many appeals was that I lost? Count? But it seems at least five, six seven?

00:21:35
Speaker 1: And look each one, though, Robes comes with what emotion for this emotion, for a continuance emotion, to delay emotion, for another hearing emotion? It's non Robes. Yes, yes, it takes thirty years, it does.

00:21:49
Speaker 2: My goodness, And then yes, I'm just imagining. If you were the inmate, it's one thing. But if you're the victim's family, you're also attending a lot of these appeals because you want it to be known where you stand on the issue and that you weren't letting this go, and that the memory of your loved one is still there and present, and you want that to constantly be a reminder to the corpse. So, yeah, you're involved in all of this as well, most likely because you want to see this through. You want to see this to the end.

00:22:19
Speaker 1: You we've covered some where the kids, they were children when their loved one or their mom died. Even people they don't have good memories of, they still show up. They still show up all these years later. And Robes, that's a good way to put it in that maybe we should and I'll keep that in mind and do more emphasis. But Ropes, so many of these do have the the inmate as the headline, as the person going through something that maybe is innocent or suffering or needs mercy.

00:22:49
Speaker 3: His final words, his last meal is this that?

00:22:53
Speaker 1: What about her? What about And Robes. I go through some that stood out today. Most of these. It gives you a column of the age, the race of the person convicted, But then it tells you about the victim, and it describes one male, one female, one black female, a lot of one white female, one white female, one white female, two white females. A lot of these. I would say the majority is certainly fifty plus percent. There was a white woman, almost a single white woman that was killed in these Wow, crazy and that most of the time are young. So so many of the comments we see growths and people showing up are what elderly parents still holding on, waiting for justice for their children.

00:23:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so sad and that's worth noting. That is worth noting. I didn't realize that it was that similar in all the cases, but I guess you think about just the violence against women the murders oftentimes, Look, when you're a woman, you and you are at risk, it's usually by a man who purports to love you, or who is obsessed with you, or who you tried to leave. I mean, that is typically what we see in a lot of these murders.

00:24:03
Speaker 1: Robes go through the last one shot ex fiance's parents, he was there after her.

00:24:09
Speaker 3: The other guy raped, strangled and drowned an eleven year old girl.

00:24:14
Speaker 1: Girl. Yes, in so many of these cases, I'm just thinking, like, wow, is a balance against a woman, bolence against a woman, balance against a woman. Yeah, so, Robes, it's important to keep these stories at the forefront, to keep having a discussion and maybe at some point, Rob we'll do something different in the country. But right now they are on another record pace in Florida, and with that appropriate appreciate you is always spending a little time with us On tj On behalf of my dear Amy Robach. We'll talk to you, Auston