Aug. 29, 2026
Fighting 101 (Part 1) Toxic Politeness Is Ruining Our Relationships
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RSS Feed A fascinating article in the New York Times this week featured an in depth conversation with the author of “The Art of Fighting.” Priya Parker is a conflict resolution facilitator who believes we could all use a little more conflict in our lives, but we need to be a lot better about how we go about it. Parker says relationships often fail apart because we are afraid to fight.
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00:00:10
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. It is Saturday, August 29th, and we're going to try something today. I hope you guys get something out of it, but we're going to do a little mini-series, Fighting 101, and the idea is to help anyone in a relationship communicate better, connect better, and yes, even fight better. And today, or at least our first part one, is on this notion of toxic politeness or what one expert calls unhealthy peace. Does that resonate with you in any way? Does that sound like something you're familiar with? Just this idea of toxic politeness or having an unhealthy peace in your relationship.
00:00:56
Speaker 2: I'm listening.
00:00:58
Speaker 1: All right. This comes from an article in the New York Times and the author of a book called The Art of Fighting. She's a conflict resolution facilitator. I didn't even know that was a thing, but sounds like a pretty cool job. And her name's Priya Parker, but she even talked about how despite that being her job, she still struggles even in her own marriage, which I think made us readers feel a little bit better that, yes, even the experts struggle when it comes to personally fighting dealing with relationships. But she argues that we could all use more fighting, more conflict. We just need to be better at how we do it. Do you buy that?
00:01:37
Speaker 2: Again, I'm listening, but no, it doesn't make sense yet.
00:01:42
Speaker 1: Her whole concept with this is that intentional, thoughtful... Conflict actually leads to greater connection and relationships often fall apart because we're afraid to have the hard conversations.
00:01:57
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm still listening. It sounds general. It sounds so far. Yes, we've heard things like this before.
00:02:02
Speaker 1: Yes, but I think that we assume that conflict is dysfunctional. You aren't like that. You've never been afraid to... I don't want to say to fight, but you've never been afraid to bring up what bothers you. What about you? What about your upbringing? You are different than the others.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't like the word fight. I don't like the word conflict because as soon as you say those things, you have a fight and a conflict. It's very, for me, and you know this, been dealing with me and dealing with any conflict we have. I simply say directly what the problem is, and then I ask for a particular solution. I just think it's just, I don't know. I don't know how we just take emotion is just a mess. It's just emotion and ego and pride and all these things when it's as simple as saying what bothers you and if the other person is mature enough to hear it, that's resolution to me. That's not conflict. That's not fighting. That's grown folks who respect and love each other. Every time we have a fight, I'm pissed at the end of it because we just wasted two days when all we had to do was say something, and give a respectful response, and we were done.
00:03:09
Speaker 1: Yes, that would be the goal, I think, for most folks. It's hard to get there. And I think what a lot of people, it's everyone goes back to how you were raised, this conflict aversion, avoidance, pretending everything's fine. In some people's families, that's what they were raised around, and that's their safety net, so to speak.
00:03:27
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: And that is part of the problem. That is the big part of the problem, she said, is the conflict aversion. People avoid it. They don't want to deal with it. Look, I was impressed with you. Literally, this is a clear example. It has nothing to do with us. But we had someone come in, a worker come into our house. And that worker came into our house and absolutely blew up our bathrooms. And instead of being annoyed and resentful, and we're never going to see this person again, but you actually directly and politely and respectfully confronted the person and said that was not okay that you did that.
00:04:06
Speaker 2: But that's not, so what's one, as far as conflict resolution, I'm supposed to not say anything.
00:04:11
Speaker 1: No, you did the right thing. That's the point.
00:04:14
Speaker 2: But there was no, I don't know. I didn't think about that, but I don't know. I just think things are, I don't know how it developed over years. I hear this, and I'm trying to be respectful and mindful of other people who do struggle with this. But in dealing with an adult that keeps saying, well, when I was a kid, this and that. I mean, at some point, you have to do better and you have to be better. And you're old enough and mature enough to know to change. And I guess every therapist and all these people say, you don't understand. And people go through and, okay, that's fine. But man, where does responsibility, at some point, where is the line that you cross to where, okay, I'm old enough now, I can't blame that. It's my responsibility, especially when you recognize what you're doing wrong. And you still don't do anything about it because your mama spanked you when you were four. Okay.
00:05:07
Speaker 1: I just, I thought, I think everyone comes from a different place. And I do think, and I use that example because most people would never have the... They wouldn't have created a boundary. They wouldn't have felt comfortable. They wouldn't have actually confronted somebody. And instead, they'd go back, they'd complain, they'd bitch, they'd remember it, they'd have negative thoughts, and they would just hold this emotional weight on something that they refused to acknowledge or address. And I say that because it was just a completely... a person you're never going to see again, and yet how you handled that was surprising to me. I bet you if ten people, nine of those people, would never have said something to him.
00:05:52
Speaker 2: As we sit here, I'm looking at that bathroom. It's 15 feet from where I'm sitting. And, of course, you want to be polite to folks, and folks come to your home and work there if you use the restroom. I understand that. He'd been here less than five minutes and asked to use the restroom. And I don't know what's appropriate. On his end or mine, if I let somebody use the bathroom, then I should assume they can do whatever they want in there. It is wildly inconsiderate. Wildly. He came. This is a main bathroom for guests right in the front of the house and blew up the house. Blew it up. It was disgusting and it was awful. And it was disrespectful. And yes, I didn't go back there and yell and scream or anything else. I looked him dead in the eye and said, that is wildly inconsiderate to come into our home and do what you just did in there. That simple as that. I didn't get mad in anything. Don't have to.
00:06:40
Speaker 1: And how did he react?
00:06:41
Speaker 2: Shocked. I stunned. And oh, my God, he knew I did. He was completely embarrassed. I wasn't trying to embarrass him. He should be embarrassed for what he just did in somebody's house. So conflict resolution and conflict and how to talk and how to speak. What? Be respectful and be honest. OK, look out for our next episode. I mean, that's that's what else. And I know I sound like I and, you know, I'm like this. but I sound like I am not leaving a lot of space for other people having struggles and for real issues. People have real issues that affect them in their adulthood. We know this. But Jesus Christ, man.
00:07:15
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you did that, and I was reading this article, and yes, it applies to romantic relationships, but it applies to coworkers. It applies to neighbors. It applies to family members. And I have been impressed as I read all of these articles experts giving boundaries and guidelines and how to react to people who do things that upset you or who do things that are inappropriate. I have always been in awe of your ability to address issues head on, unemotionally. And it's not just in our relationship, but in every relationship you have. And I am curious who you got that from, because I will say that is a skill that most people never, ever actually acknowledge or even look to brush up on or get better at, and yet you seem to have always had it.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: Awareness and practice, that's all. Just if you're aware of it all the time, and just taking emotion out of it is difficult, I understand, but I don't know. I don't know. I've been practicing it for a long time to where it's just habit now. So please, yes, what is this? And again, this is one of these episodes, folks, sometimes on the weekend, if you hang with us. This is one where Rogues will present something to me. So I didn't read up on this. So I am learning as you all are.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. And some of them I look and certain moments in our weekly life trigger, or I just see these articles and I think, wow, and I'll either apply them to us. But I do think these are universal issues. And I do think a lot of people grew up in families where they there is a constant avoidance of conflict. And I have all like the moment I met you, we became friends. I don't know how long ago I was impressed at your ability to take on issues directly and almost immediately. And I don't think most people have either the confidence or the skills to do what I see you do every day. And therefore people don't end up having conflict resolving conversations and They don't have meaningful conversations because they just want to pretend it's all okay. And this is what she says most relationships are missing. So she says, if you are like me and not like TJ, and you struggle with that a little bit, she suggests practicing something. And you say practice. She says practice what she calls healthy heat. Can you guess what that is?
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Healthy heat? No, I don't know what she said.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: She said, this is how you can ease into having more direct, more meaningful conversations, and you learn how to fight better without emotion, she said to start with things that don't matter. So start with, she said, healthy heat starts with low stakes arguing. So it allows you to disagree, to even be disgusted by what the other person does or says, meaning like food, movies, TV shows, music, like How could you possibly like that? Or just having known things that you would be different on and have those conversations in a playful, fun way.
00:10:24
Speaker 2: Conversations. Okay. Tell me how I was supposed to put that in practice. So if we're watching a movie and I don't like it or we disagree about what movie I like, yeah, really, what's an example?
00:10:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's saying to normalize that fighting, you can normalize disagreement. You can normalize fighting. You can normalize having differences of opinion and not taking it personally, not getting emotional reaction from it. And she said you can start with things. And she's, look, again, not just romantic relationships, but even if you've got problems in the office, problems with family members, And maybe it is over specific things, but if you can learn that you can disagree and it's still going to be okay, that actually you can provide differing points of views with one another without getting upset. There are lots of triggers out there. And so anyway, it's about normalizing fighting, about making fighting safe, about having disagreement and conflict and not feeling like the world is crashing down around you.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: See, I'm taking issue with the words fighting and conflict. because this is not a fight or a conflict if we disagree about a movie or dinner or music or whatever else. Once we put them into those categories, even practicing healthy heat, practice fighting, practice conflict, what I'm saying is stop it before it becomes a conflict. You know I say this all the time, baby. It's never the crime, it's the cover-up. You and I don't ever fight about what actually just happened. It's something else and the reaction to it and how ever, ever, ever. So I just don't think most things are fights. Hey, babe, you remember I asked you to do the thing. You end up not doing it. That really put me in a bad spot. And can I please just ask that you not do that again? Do we have conflict? Do we need to fight? What is the reaction to that going to be? And that's going to be key. Well, I didn't know, okay? I had this, I had this, and I had this. So I'm sorry I didn't remember to put your little luggage back in the closet. Okay, let's do it. Now we got to fight. There is no fight. There is no conflict. I respect you. You respect me. You should respect me enough to receive what I'm saying. I should respect you enough to say it in such a way that doesn't insult you.
00:12:35
Speaker 1: Next. Yeah, those are all the shoulds. But unfortunately, they aren't oftentimes what ends up happening.
00:12:41
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. Why do we always have an excuse for why we don't behave better? That's what I'm saying. Should, yeah, I should, but, yeah, I should, but, yeah, but I got, mm, I know, but, mm, mm, yeah, but then I got a, mm, but, mm. Okay, I say this, oh, babe, at some point, you just got to be better. At some point, okay, but let me listen to the good doctor and author there.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: Well, she says that after you work on and acknowledge the low stakes arguing, you then possibly can go to the high stake arguing. And look, she says, you know, it's high stakes because you feel it. You feel it physically. You maybe feel slightly faint. You get hot. You get sweaty. But your chest tightens. Your heart starts racing. And she says, when that happens, that is the point in which you have to take stock and say, wow, look what's happening to me. I am physically reacting to the emotion. You've never felt that? I'm sure everybody has felt that physical reaction. When you are upset and you're in a fight, your body physically reacts, which doesn't help you when you're trying to have a meaningful conversation. So I think that's a good place to start. You're like, okay, here we are. I'm in a high-stakes argument or potential conflict. And when I see what's happening, when I feel what's happening in my body, part of the way to take a step back is just to notice it. To notice it and to breathe. And the number one thing, do not exit, do not leave. Because that is what you might have been doing in the past. That's what a conflict-diverse person would do. Somebody who avoids conflict, who's a... into this toxic politeness, they have to leave because they can't handle the pressure, literally.
00:14:26
Speaker 2: And I assume the doctor says that's bad. I keep saying a doctor. Is this doctor something?
00:14:31
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:14:31
Speaker 2: She's not a doctor.
00:14:32
Speaker 1: She is a, wait, what was the word? A conflict resolution facilitator. Um, she, I, I didn't see a doctor in front of her name. I don't want to take it away from her. She might have it. I don't want to misspeak on this one, but, um, I thought this was interesting. So anyway, and she had this, I'm curious what you think about this. I don't know how I feel about this. She said that we don't normalize arguments. We make them seem bad and negative and should be avoided at all costs. And that is part of the problem. I understand that. And so she said, if her children are in the room, when she and her husband get into a fight, She looks at them and says, it's okay that we're fighting. We are arguing because we love each other, and this is an important conversation.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: Okay, now that's comical. That is comical.
00:15:17
Speaker 1: I knew you'd have a feeling about that.
00:15:18
Speaker 2: A heated couple having an emotional argument about their relationship, and who knows what big themes. You're going to turn to a three-year-old. We're good. Just keep watching. This is perfectly normal.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: I guess if you learn how to fight in a meaningful way, and I know you don't like the word fight, but have an argument or a disagreement maybe even is how you would put it. And you could do it in a meaningful way. She's saying to not let your kids see that is actually a disservice because then it tells them that it's only okay if everyone is happy. And they need to understand that conflict and disagreement is a healthy part of a loving relationship.
00:15:57
Speaker 2: Okay, so then they can grow up and also start fighting and whatnot with their spouse later in life and see it's perfectly normal. Then they can blame their parents for how they fight because that's what they saw their parents do. And this is the only way I know how to resolve conflict is to get emotional in this fight because that's what my parents did.
00:16:12
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, she's not saying to get emotional in front of them.
00:16:15
Speaker 2: I know, but Groves, who's... Okay, so we first got to get people to a good place of how they fight before we tell them it's okay to let your kids see that fighting. Because right now, according to this doctor or... The author, overwhelmingly, people aren't fighting the right way.
00:16:29
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
00:16:30
Speaker 2: So it's hard to tell them to say it's okay to let the kids see.
00:16:33
Speaker 1: It right now. And then she talked about the only way to move past a disagreement or a fight is to learn not only how to give a full apology, but also how to receive a full apology. And she said, we have not been taught that. how to do either very well. That ultimately, half the time when we apologize or when we accept an apology, we actually make things worse.
00:17:04
Speaker 2: When we give and accept?
00:17:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that most of us, most of us, obviously there are always exceptions, but most of us are not good at giving apologies and we're also not good at receiving apologies. So she said the art of giving a full apology is to first articulate what it is you did wrong Never say, I'm sorry you were offended. But the example would be, you'd say, I am so sorry that I spoke to you that way. And genuinely say that. I am so sorry I got defensive. I am so sorry I hurt you. Like, explain what it is you're sorry for, because that does make it more meaningful. And do not say, I'm sorry you were offended.
00:17:49
Speaker 2: Which, and if you all don't pay attention to that, pay close attention to a lot of public apologies that people make. And how often that's in there and how offensive that is to say that I'm not sorry for what I did. I'm just sorry that what I did caused you to get your panties in a bunch.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. And people like people think if they take out the if that that makes it OK. And look, I have caught myself doing it. It is it is a terrible habit. I think the obviously the first step is acknowledgement. But I'm sorry if you were offended is absolutely blasphemous. But even saying, I'm sorry you were offended is just a cousin to that. It might be slightly better than the if you were offended. But I'm sorry you were offended is still not good enough. You have to say, I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry my words were harsh. I'm sorry I got defensive and didn't listen. Those are full apologies. Would you agree? Yeah.
00:18:46
Speaker 2: Well, this is... Look, I... think you know I apologize with the best of them it's full that I don't need to and you know this is something I do and I remind you all the time if you tell me I'm doing something wrong or that bothered you there is no follow-up to explain myself somebody I love just said that something I did upset her I'm listening and there's nothing else to talk about and to change it on the spot I don't know defend well if you let me if you only if you understood well what was on my mind at the time Nothing, nothing else to say. If you love and respect that person, you got to listen and nothing else matters.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: Agreed. And then if you're on the receiving side, when someone does apologize to you, she says, don't just say it's okay or it's fine. That that is dismissive. That doesn't make the person who actually, I didn't think about this, but it's true. The reason why saying I'm sorry is so hard, um, is because people don't want to admit they're wrong. But the reason why it's so hard to say thank you when someone apologizes to you, because it's actually vulnerable to admit that someone affected you. When you say thank you, that really means a lot. You're acknowledging that you were just incredibly vulnerable in that moment and you got hurt. So they say people have a hard time even accepting about it's OK, it's fine. Because they don't want to act like they actually even got affected or were even hurt by it. It's fine. It's okay.
00:20:11
Speaker 2: I say that all the time, but it's not about me not feeling like I'm affected. I will let you know I was affected. That's why we're fighting in the first place. Because I'll let you know I was affected. But I get what you're saying. It's another way to protect yourself by not accepting an apology. Eh.
00:20:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:20:27
Speaker 2: I could see that.
00:20:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she just said to remember if you were getting apologized to. And maybe even if it's not how you want them to apologize, if you just say thank you, it does go a long way. And then, look, she just said it's a huge problem with daily life. The fact that we're as human beings, and as old as some of us are, present party included, that it's still, why is it so hard to say you're sorry in the right way? Why is it so hard to accept an apology? in the right way.
00:20:57
Speaker 2: So why is that?
00:20:59
Speaker 1: It's about not wanting to be vulnerable. It's about not wanting to be.
00:21:02
Speaker 2: So when do you start?
00:21:04
Speaker 1: You have to make a decision. And she said, you have to practice. You just have to practice. Right.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: At some point that people, I don't know, it's just that type of change. Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker 2: I guess it's never too late to start. Let me just go with that.
00:21:15
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. All right. When we come back, you're going to, you're going to have thoughts. on something else she suggests that she says she has studied. This is something that folks have been doing since the beginning of time. Couples from, yes, before we were even colonized and civilized. She says we should schedule our fights. Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. We are talking about toxic politeness, unhealthy peace, and this all comes from an article in the New York Times from the author of The Art of Fighting. This is a woman who has studied conflict, studied how couples and relationships, not just in romantic relationships, but friendships, families, coworkers, neighbors, why we can't have constructive, meaningful conversations, and how we can't actually address conflict in a healthy way. We avoid it. We get offended by it. We don't apologize for it. We don't extend forgiveness. And it just creates the mess that we find ourselves in politically and personally. And I do think that reads, we're not good at it as a human race. Most of us aren't at least.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: Because again, because of us, because of pride, because of ego, because of what you're saying, you don't want to be vulnerable and all these things. I just, That's too bad. You know this drives me crazy how we talk to each other in all things in life and society. It sucks just seeing people in the grocery store talking to each other sometimes. I don't know. Yes, I get what you're saying. If this helps someone, at least if you're aware of it, be mindful in how you go about it. This is useful.
00:23:12
Speaker 1: We're doing three separate episodes from different vantage points and different types of but the point being is this is the thing that makes most of us miserable. Whether, you know, we were even talking, we were watching morning television. Why is it that four or five people sitting around a table yelling at each other is entertainment? We've just become so, I don't know, like we almost need a fight.
00:23:37
Speaker 2: That's a good point. That doesn't help at all. Everybody, every article is so-and-so and claps back, so-and-so and eviscerates, so-and-so and puts down. It's all that stuff.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:23:50
Speaker 2: To where we think this is the only way to resolve conflict is to come out on top in your TikTok video response to make sure you took them down harder than they took you down. Oh, yeah. This is how we have debate. This is what ratings are about in cable news is to get two people on and go through heated conflict on TV.
00:24:14
Speaker 1: So we normalize dysfunction.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: That sucks.
00:24:17
Speaker 1: And then we find it in our own homes and we don't understand why. Now, she says, she has studied, she goes back to indigenous peoples and said there is historic evidence that these traditional and indigenous communities actually had specific times and places to regularly sort through conflict. So... Um, she even suggests for, she said, oftentimes there's like one person who doesn't want to fight and the other person who, who does. And I say fight meaning address an issue. So one person wants to talk about the other person does not. And so she says that you should actually have like a day of the week, save it for Tuesday. And then the one person who wants to discuss it right now, cause they're hot and they're angry and they're pissed. The other person can say, save it for Tuesday. And then they sit down on Tuesday and they have kind of an adjustment. Like, let's talk about what went wrong and let's figure this out in a setting where you don't have emotions flaring. You have had some time to reflect on maybe your role in the situation. You can actually have a meaningful conversation. I don't think it's a terrible idea. It might sound silly, but I had never considered that. And she said, look, if we go back and look at how before all of our modern society evolved, That is oftentimes what these groups did. Even they would do it in their community or with family, but they would have a day or a time or in a place where they would meet and focus on discussing conflict.
00:25:52
Speaker 2: Some people call that therapy, regularly scheduled therapy. Some people can call it Congress, right? We have a regularly scheduled place, and there are rules to how we are going to fight and work out our differences. Yes, that all makes sense. Robes, it doesn't make sense when a spouse just pissed off another spouse and that offending spouse says, I'll talk to you about this on Thursday. okay, let the frying pan fly.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe in those moments you have to have an initial conversation. And she didn't address it from that perspective, but she said part of what we're lacking in our human connection is to have a ritual or something where we hold ourselves and each other accountable for grievances towards one another. And the worst thing you can do is never discuss it, sweep it under the rug, and let resentment... build.
00:26:50
Speaker 2: Was that thing you just said? Dang, you said something that was terrifying. You said like a list of grievances or something.
00:26:56
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, not that you're keeping score in that sense, but that you're waiting.
00:27:00
Speaker 2: But if we have a regular meeting every week through which I'm supposed to bring all my problems to the table, that means I've been collecting them for seven days.
00:27:07
Speaker 1: I mean, yes. I mean, you could have it once a day. You could have a conversation about, hey, what went wrong, what went right. Yes, I mean, she didn't give guidance about how often or when, and I think it's just individual. She's the expert.
00:27:19
Speaker 2: We need our guidance.
00:27:20
Speaker 1: She's just suggesting that if you've got somebody who never wants to talk about it, and you've got somebody who always wants to discuss it right then, there's a compromise in the middle. That was what her acknowledgement was. And then she did have this bit of information, and she was directing this more towards families. She talked a lot about political differences, religious differences, all the things that affect families. She said, if you've had the same conversation over and over and over again with this person about how they feel about something, and you know you're not going to change them, but you still want to be in a relationship with them, she said to literally have fun together and remember all the different reasons you love one another. There may be something that is just not going to be resolved. And she actually used her relationship with her father as an example and And she said, at a certain point, if I want to be in a relationship with him and I want to love him, I have to drop it. And I have to focus on what we do agree on, what we can find common ground on, and focus on that. And that was her suggestion. But it was just interesting. I had never heard anybody have these types of advice. And look, for each person, this might speak to one person and be ridiculous to another. It sounds like it's mostly ridiculous to you.
00:28:35
Speaker 2: No.
00:28:35
Speaker 1: But this could speak to somebody who has... a penchant for avoidance. And I do think that is a lot of folks. I tend to be more in that category where you just want it to all be good. You don't want to bring it up. You'd rather just keep the peace, but there is a real danger in doing that. And that was her point. And a lot of it is you acknowledging that you have that tendency and to focus on trying to be more direct and And to not pretend because that is unhealthy peace. I just like that concept of recognizing unhealthy peace.
00:29:11
Speaker 2: I get that now danger and avoidance. Now I'm with, I'm with you a hundred percent on that. And well, sometimes that does keep the peace as well. Wouldn't call it a healthy relationship. You told me about the airport divorces thing, right? I didn't, I didn't think that's healthy, but people want to find peace in their relationship in whatever way. Knock yourself out, however you want to go about doing it. But I, She challenges and gives tips and gives, mine is just simply ask yourself, like, why are you, not being better? You're acknowledging that you do something wrong. You're acknowledging what you're bad at. You know it. It's okay to challenge yourself and nobody else to just be better because what I found is, I don't know if you hear me say this all the time, I do not have a lot of faith. In people. I just don't. Let me screw my own stuff up. Don't do it for me kind of a thing. I just would love for also people to take that challenge on is to just look at yourself and say, yeah, I know I'm doing that. So why do I continue to do it? That's it. And that's helpful. It has been helpful for me.
00:30:23
Speaker 1: You set this up perfectly. Oh, there's more I thought we were going to do. Well, no, because I'm teasing the next episode. Oh, sorry.
00:30:30
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:30:31
Speaker 1: The next episode you're going to see on our feed is five things to ask yourself to prevent a conversation from turning into a fight. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, thank you for listening to us, everyone. I'm Amy Robach alongside TJ Holmes. We'll talk very soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. It is Saturday, August 29th, and we're going to try something today. I hope you guys get something out of it, but we're going to do a little mini-series, Fighting 101, and the idea is to help anyone in a relationship communicate better, connect better, and yes, even fight better. And today, or at least our first part one, is on this notion of toxic politeness or what one expert calls unhealthy peace. Does that resonate with you in any way? Does that sound like something you're familiar with? Just this idea of toxic politeness or having an unhealthy peace in your relationship.
00:00:56
Speaker 2: I'm listening.
00:00:58
Speaker 1: All right. This comes from an article in the New York Times and the author of a book called The Art of Fighting. She's a conflict resolution facilitator. I didn't even know that was a thing, but sounds like a pretty cool job. And her name's Priya Parker, but she even talked about how despite that being her job, she still struggles even in her own marriage, which I think made us readers feel a little bit better that, yes, even the experts struggle when it comes to personally fighting dealing with relationships. But she argues that we could all use more fighting, more conflict. We just need to be better at how we do it. Do you buy that?
00:01:37
Speaker 2: Again, I'm listening, but no, it doesn't make sense yet.
00:01:42
Speaker 1: Her whole concept with this is that intentional, thoughtful... Conflict actually leads to greater connection and relationships often fall apart because we're afraid to have the hard conversations.
00:01:57
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm still listening. It sounds general. It sounds so far. Yes, we've heard things like this before.
00:02:02
Speaker 1: Yes, but I think that we assume that conflict is dysfunctional. You aren't like that. You've never been afraid to... I don't want to say to fight, but you've never been afraid to bring up what bothers you. What about you? What about your upbringing? You are different than the others.
00:02:20
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't like the word fight. I don't like the word conflict because as soon as you say those things, you have a fight and a conflict. It's very, for me, and you know this, been dealing with me and dealing with any conflict we have. I simply say directly what the problem is, and then I ask for a particular solution. I just think it's just, I don't know. I don't know how we just take emotion is just a mess. It's just emotion and ego and pride and all these things when it's as simple as saying what bothers you and if the other person is mature enough to hear it, that's resolution to me. That's not conflict. That's not fighting. That's grown folks who respect and love each other. Every time we have a fight, I'm pissed at the end of it because we just wasted two days when all we had to do was say something, and give a respectful response, and we were done.
00:03:09
Speaker 1: Yes, that would be the goal, I think, for most folks. It's hard to get there. And I think what a lot of people, it's everyone goes back to how you were raised, this conflict aversion, avoidance, pretending everything's fine. In some people's families, that's what they were raised around, and that's their safety net, so to speak.
00:03:27
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: And that is part of the problem. That is the big part of the problem, she said, is the conflict aversion. People avoid it. They don't want to deal with it. Look, I was impressed with you. Literally, this is a clear example. It has nothing to do with us. But we had someone come in, a worker come into our house. And that worker came into our house and absolutely blew up our bathrooms. And instead of being annoyed and resentful, and we're never going to see this person again, but you actually directly and politely and respectfully confronted the person and said that was not okay that you did that.
00:04:06
Speaker 2: But that's not, so what's one, as far as conflict resolution, I'm supposed to not say anything.
00:04:11
Speaker 1: No, you did the right thing. That's the point.
00:04:14
Speaker 2: But there was no, I don't know. I didn't think about that, but I don't know. I just think things are, I don't know how it developed over years. I hear this, and I'm trying to be respectful and mindful of other people who do struggle with this. But in dealing with an adult that keeps saying, well, when I was a kid, this and that. I mean, at some point, you have to do better and you have to be better. And you're old enough and mature enough to know to change. And I guess every therapist and all these people say, you don't understand. And people go through and, okay, that's fine. But man, where does responsibility, at some point, where is the line that you cross to where, okay, I'm old enough now, I can't blame that. It's my responsibility, especially when you recognize what you're doing wrong. And you still don't do anything about it because your mama spanked you when you were four. Okay.
00:05:07
Speaker 1: I just, I thought, I think everyone comes from a different place. And I do think, and I use that example because most people would never have the... They wouldn't have created a boundary. They wouldn't have felt comfortable. They wouldn't have actually confronted somebody. And instead, they'd go back, they'd complain, they'd bitch, they'd remember it, they'd have negative thoughts, and they would just hold this emotional weight on something that they refused to acknowledge or address. And I say that because it was just a completely... a person you're never going to see again, and yet how you handled that was surprising to me. I bet you if ten people, nine of those people, would never have said something to him.
00:05:52
Speaker 2: As we sit here, I'm looking at that bathroom. It's 15 feet from where I'm sitting. And, of course, you want to be polite to folks, and folks come to your home and work there if you use the restroom. I understand that. He'd been here less than five minutes and asked to use the restroom. And I don't know what's appropriate. On his end or mine, if I let somebody use the bathroom, then I should assume they can do whatever they want in there. It is wildly inconsiderate. Wildly. He came. This is a main bathroom for guests right in the front of the house and blew up the house. Blew it up. It was disgusting and it was awful. And it was disrespectful. And yes, I didn't go back there and yell and scream or anything else. I looked him dead in the eye and said, that is wildly inconsiderate to come into our home and do what you just did in there. That simple as that. I didn't get mad in anything. Don't have to.
00:06:40
Speaker 1: And how did he react?
00:06:41
Speaker 2: Shocked. I stunned. And oh, my God, he knew I did. He was completely embarrassed. I wasn't trying to embarrass him. He should be embarrassed for what he just did in somebody's house. So conflict resolution and conflict and how to talk and how to speak. What? Be respectful and be honest. OK, look out for our next episode. I mean, that's that's what else. And I know I sound like I and, you know, I'm like this. but I sound like I am not leaving a lot of space for other people having struggles and for real issues. People have real issues that affect them in their adulthood. We know this. But Jesus Christ, man.
00:07:15
Speaker 1: It's interesting because you did that, and I was reading this article, and yes, it applies to romantic relationships, but it applies to coworkers. It applies to neighbors. It applies to family members. And I have been impressed as I read all of these articles experts giving boundaries and guidelines and how to react to people who do things that upset you or who do things that are inappropriate. I have always been in awe of your ability to address issues head on, unemotionally. And it's not just in our relationship, but in every relationship you have. And I am curious who you got that from, because I will say that is a skill that most people never, ever actually acknowledge or even look to brush up on or get better at, and yet you seem to have always had it.
00:08:07
Speaker 2: Awareness and practice, that's all. Just if you're aware of it all the time, and just taking emotion out of it is difficult, I understand, but I don't know. I don't know. I've been practicing it for a long time to where it's just habit now. So please, yes, what is this? And again, this is one of these episodes, folks, sometimes on the weekend, if you hang with us. This is one where Rogues will present something to me. So I didn't read up on this. So I am learning as you all are.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. And some of them I look and certain moments in our weekly life trigger, or I just see these articles and I think, wow, and I'll either apply them to us. But I do think these are universal issues. And I do think a lot of people grew up in families where they there is a constant avoidance of conflict. And I have all like the moment I met you, we became friends. I don't know how long ago I was impressed at your ability to take on issues directly and almost immediately. And I don't think most people have either the confidence or the skills to do what I see you do every day. And therefore people don't end up having conflict resolving conversations and They don't have meaningful conversations because they just want to pretend it's all okay. And this is what she says most relationships are missing. So she says, if you are like me and not like TJ, and you struggle with that a little bit, she suggests practicing something. And you say practice. She says practice what she calls healthy heat. Can you guess what that is?
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Healthy heat? No, I don't know what she said.
00:09:47
Speaker 1: She said, this is how you can ease into having more direct, more meaningful conversations, and you learn how to fight better without emotion, she said to start with things that don't matter. So start with, she said, healthy heat starts with low stakes arguing. So it allows you to disagree, to even be disgusted by what the other person does or says, meaning like food, movies, TV shows, music, like How could you possibly like that? Or just having known things that you would be different on and have those conversations in a playful, fun way.
00:10:24
Speaker 2: Conversations. Okay. Tell me how I was supposed to put that in practice. So if we're watching a movie and I don't like it or we disagree about what movie I like, yeah, really, what's an example?
00:10:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, she's saying to normalize that fighting, you can normalize disagreement. You can normalize fighting. You can normalize having differences of opinion and not taking it personally, not getting emotional reaction from it. And she said you can start with things. And she's, look, again, not just romantic relationships, but even if you've got problems in the office, problems with family members, And maybe it is over specific things, but if you can learn that you can disagree and it's still going to be okay, that actually you can provide differing points of views with one another without getting upset. There are lots of triggers out there. And so anyway, it's about normalizing fighting, about making fighting safe, about having disagreement and conflict and not feeling like the world is crashing down around you.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: See, I'm taking issue with the words fighting and conflict. because this is not a fight or a conflict if we disagree about a movie or dinner or music or whatever else. Once we put them into those categories, even practicing healthy heat, practice fighting, practice conflict, what I'm saying is stop it before it becomes a conflict. You know I say this all the time, baby. It's never the crime, it's the cover-up. You and I don't ever fight about what actually just happened. It's something else and the reaction to it and how ever, ever, ever. So I just don't think most things are fights. Hey, babe, you remember I asked you to do the thing. You end up not doing it. That really put me in a bad spot. And can I please just ask that you not do that again? Do we have conflict? Do we need to fight? What is the reaction to that going to be? And that's going to be key. Well, I didn't know, okay? I had this, I had this, and I had this. So I'm sorry I didn't remember to put your little luggage back in the closet. Okay, let's do it. Now we got to fight. There is no fight. There is no conflict. I respect you. You respect me. You should respect me enough to receive what I'm saying. I should respect you enough to say it in such a way that doesn't insult you.
00:12:35
Speaker 1: Next. Yeah, those are all the shoulds. But unfortunately, they aren't oftentimes what ends up happening.
00:12:41
Speaker 2: But that's the thing. Why do we always have an excuse for why we don't behave better? That's what I'm saying. Should, yeah, I should, but, yeah, I should, but, yeah, but I got, mm, I know, but, mm, mm, yeah, but then I got a, mm, but, mm. Okay, I say this, oh, babe, at some point, you just got to be better. At some point, okay, but let me listen to the good doctor and author there.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: Well, she says that after you work on and acknowledge the low stakes arguing, you then possibly can go to the high stake arguing. And look, she says, you know, it's high stakes because you feel it. You feel it physically. You maybe feel slightly faint. You get hot. You get sweaty. But your chest tightens. Your heart starts racing. And she says, when that happens, that is the point in which you have to take stock and say, wow, look what's happening to me. I am physically reacting to the emotion. You've never felt that? I'm sure everybody has felt that physical reaction. When you are upset and you're in a fight, your body physically reacts, which doesn't help you when you're trying to have a meaningful conversation. So I think that's a good place to start. You're like, okay, here we are. I'm in a high-stakes argument or potential conflict. And when I see what's happening, when I feel what's happening in my body, part of the way to take a step back is just to notice it. To notice it and to breathe. And the number one thing, do not exit, do not leave. Because that is what you might have been doing in the past. That's what a conflict-diverse person would do. Somebody who avoids conflict, who's a... into this toxic politeness, they have to leave because they can't handle the pressure, literally.
00:14:26
Speaker 2: And I assume the doctor says that's bad. I keep saying a doctor. Is this doctor something?
00:14:31
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:14:31
Speaker 2: She's not a doctor.
00:14:32
Speaker 1: She is a, wait, what was the word? A conflict resolution facilitator. Um, she, I, I didn't see a doctor in front of her name. I don't want to take it away from her. She might have it. I don't want to misspeak on this one, but, um, I thought this was interesting. So anyway, and she had this, I'm curious what you think about this. I don't know how I feel about this. She said that we don't normalize arguments. We make them seem bad and negative and should be avoided at all costs. And that is part of the problem. I understand that. And so she said, if her children are in the room, when she and her husband get into a fight, She looks at them and says, it's okay that we're fighting. We are arguing because we love each other, and this is an important conversation.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: Okay, now that's comical. That is comical.
00:15:17
Speaker 1: I knew you'd have a feeling about that.
00:15:18
Speaker 2: A heated couple having an emotional argument about their relationship, and who knows what big themes. You're going to turn to a three-year-old. We're good. Just keep watching. This is perfectly normal.
00:15:31
Speaker 1: I guess if you learn how to fight in a meaningful way, and I know you don't like the word fight, but have an argument or a disagreement maybe even is how you would put it. And you could do it in a meaningful way. She's saying to not let your kids see that is actually a disservice because then it tells them that it's only okay if everyone is happy. And they need to understand that conflict and disagreement is a healthy part of a loving relationship.
00:15:57
Speaker 2: Okay, so then they can grow up and also start fighting and whatnot with their spouse later in life and see it's perfectly normal. Then they can blame their parents for how they fight because that's what they saw their parents do. And this is the only way I know how to resolve conflict is to get emotional in this fight because that's what my parents did.
00:16:12
Speaker 1: Okay. Well, she's not saying to get emotional in front of them.
00:16:15
Speaker 2: I know, but Groves, who's... Okay, so we first got to get people to a good place of how they fight before we tell them it's okay to let your kids see that fighting. Because right now, according to this doctor or... The author, overwhelmingly, people aren't fighting the right way.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.
00:16:30
Speaker 2: So it's hard to tell them to say it's okay to let the kids see.
00:16:33
Speaker 1: It right now. And then she talked about the only way to move past a disagreement or a fight is to learn not only how to give a full apology, but also how to receive a full apology. And she said, we have not been taught that. how to do either very well. That ultimately, half the time when we apologize or when we accept an apology, we actually make things worse.
00:17:04
Speaker 2: When we give and accept?
00:17:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, that most of us, most of us, obviously there are always exceptions, but most of us are not good at giving apologies and we're also not good at receiving apologies. So she said the art of giving a full apology is to first articulate what it is you did wrong Never say, I'm sorry you were offended. But the example would be, you'd say, I am so sorry that I spoke to you that way. And genuinely say that. I am so sorry I got defensive. I am so sorry I hurt you. Like, explain what it is you're sorry for, because that does make it more meaningful. And do not say, I'm sorry you were offended.
00:17:49
Speaker 2: Which, and if you all don't pay attention to that, pay close attention to a lot of public apologies that people make. And how often that's in there and how offensive that is to say that I'm not sorry for what I did. I'm just sorry that what I did caused you to get your panties in a bunch.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah. And people like people think if they take out the if that that makes it OK. And look, I have caught myself doing it. It is it is a terrible habit. I think the obviously the first step is acknowledgement. But I'm sorry if you were offended is absolutely blasphemous. But even saying, I'm sorry you were offended is just a cousin to that. It might be slightly better than the if you were offended. But I'm sorry you were offended is still not good enough. You have to say, I'm sorry I hurt you. I'm sorry my words were harsh. I'm sorry I got defensive and didn't listen. Those are full apologies. Would you agree? Yeah.
00:18:46
Speaker 2: Well, this is... Look, I... think you know I apologize with the best of them it's full that I don't need to and you know this is something I do and I remind you all the time if you tell me I'm doing something wrong or that bothered you there is no follow-up to explain myself somebody I love just said that something I did upset her I'm listening and there's nothing else to talk about and to change it on the spot I don't know defend well if you let me if you only if you understood well what was on my mind at the time Nothing, nothing else to say. If you love and respect that person, you got to listen and nothing else matters.
00:19:25
Speaker 1: Agreed. And then if you're on the receiving side, when someone does apologize to you, she says, don't just say it's okay or it's fine. That that is dismissive. That doesn't make the person who actually, I didn't think about this, but it's true. The reason why saying I'm sorry is so hard, um, is because people don't want to admit they're wrong. But the reason why it's so hard to say thank you when someone apologizes to you, because it's actually vulnerable to admit that someone affected you. When you say thank you, that really means a lot. You're acknowledging that you were just incredibly vulnerable in that moment and you got hurt. So they say people have a hard time even accepting about it's OK, it's fine. Because they don't want to act like they actually even got affected or were even hurt by it. It's fine. It's okay.
00:20:11
Speaker 2: I say that all the time, but it's not about me not feeling like I'm affected. I will let you know I was affected. That's why we're fighting in the first place. Because I'll let you know I was affected. But I get what you're saying. It's another way to protect yourself by not accepting an apology. Eh.
00:20:27
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:20:27
Speaker 2: I could see that.
00:20:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she just said to remember if you were getting apologized to. And maybe even if it's not how you want them to apologize, if you just say thank you, it does go a long way. And then, look, she just said it's a huge problem with daily life. The fact that we're as human beings, and as old as some of us are, present party included, that it's still, why is it so hard to say you're sorry in the right way? Why is it so hard to accept an apology? in the right way.
00:20:57
Speaker 2: So why is that?
00:20:59
Speaker 1: It's about not wanting to be vulnerable. It's about not wanting to be.
00:21:02
Speaker 2: So when do you start?
00:21:04
Speaker 1: You have to make a decision. And she said, you have to practice. You just have to practice. Right.
00:21:08
Speaker 2: At some point that people, I don't know, it's just that type of change. Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:21:13
Speaker 2: I guess it's never too late to start. Let me just go with that.
00:21:15
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. All right. When we come back, you're going to, you're going to have thoughts. on something else she suggests that she says she has studied. This is something that folks have been doing since the beginning of time. Couples from, yes, before we were even colonized and civilized. She says we should schedule our fights. Hey there, everybody, and welcome to Amy and TJ. We are talking about toxic politeness, unhealthy peace, and this all comes from an article in the New York Times from the author of The Art of Fighting. This is a woman who has studied conflict, studied how couples and relationships, not just in romantic relationships, but friendships, families, coworkers, neighbors, why we can't have constructive, meaningful conversations, and how we can't actually address conflict in a healthy way. We avoid it. We get offended by it. We don't apologize for it. We don't extend forgiveness. And it just creates the mess that we find ourselves in politically and personally. And I do think that reads, we're not good at it as a human race. Most of us aren't at least.
00:22:41
Speaker 2: Because again, because of us, because of pride, because of ego, because of what you're saying, you don't want to be vulnerable and all these things. I just, That's too bad. You know this drives me crazy how we talk to each other in all things in life and society. It sucks just seeing people in the grocery store talking to each other sometimes. I don't know. Yes, I get what you're saying. If this helps someone, at least if you're aware of it, be mindful in how you go about it. This is useful.
00:23:12
Speaker 1: We're doing three separate episodes from different vantage points and different types of but the point being is this is the thing that makes most of us miserable. Whether, you know, we were even talking, we were watching morning television. Why is it that four or five people sitting around a table yelling at each other is entertainment? We've just become so, I don't know, like we almost need a fight.
00:23:37
Speaker 2: That's a good point. That doesn't help at all. Everybody, every article is so-and-so and claps back, so-and-so and eviscerates, so-and-so and puts down. It's all that stuff.
00:23:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:23:50
Speaker 2: To where we think this is the only way to resolve conflict is to come out on top in your TikTok video response to make sure you took them down harder than they took you down. Oh, yeah. This is how we have debate. This is what ratings are about in cable news is to get two people on and go through heated conflict on TV.
00:24:14
Speaker 1: So we normalize dysfunction.
00:24:17
Speaker 2: That sucks.
00:24:17
Speaker 1: And then we find it in our own homes and we don't understand why. Now, she says, she has studied, she goes back to indigenous peoples and said there is historic evidence that these traditional and indigenous communities actually had specific times and places to regularly sort through conflict. So... Um, she even suggests for, she said, oftentimes there's like one person who doesn't want to fight and the other person who, who does. And I say fight meaning address an issue. So one person wants to talk about the other person does not. And so she says that you should actually have like a day of the week, save it for Tuesday. And then the one person who wants to discuss it right now, cause they're hot and they're angry and they're pissed. The other person can say, save it for Tuesday. And then they sit down on Tuesday and they have kind of an adjustment. Like, let's talk about what went wrong and let's figure this out in a setting where you don't have emotions flaring. You have had some time to reflect on maybe your role in the situation. You can actually have a meaningful conversation. I don't think it's a terrible idea. It might sound silly, but I had never considered that. And she said, look, if we go back and look at how before all of our modern society evolved, That is oftentimes what these groups did. Even they would do it in their community or with family, but they would have a day or a time or in a place where they would meet and focus on discussing conflict.
00:25:52
Speaker 2: Some people call that therapy, regularly scheduled therapy. Some people can call it Congress, right? We have a regularly scheduled place, and there are rules to how we are going to fight and work out our differences. Yes, that all makes sense. Robes, it doesn't make sense when a spouse just pissed off another spouse and that offending spouse says, I'll talk to you about this on Thursday. okay, let the frying pan fly.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe in those moments you have to have an initial conversation. And she didn't address it from that perspective, but she said part of what we're lacking in our human connection is to have a ritual or something where we hold ourselves and each other accountable for grievances towards one another. And the worst thing you can do is never discuss it, sweep it under the rug, and let resentment... build.
00:26:50
Speaker 2: Was that thing you just said? Dang, you said something that was terrifying. You said like a list of grievances or something.
00:26:56
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, not that you're keeping score in that sense, but that you're waiting.
00:27:00
Speaker 2: But if we have a regular meeting every week through which I'm supposed to bring all my problems to the table, that means I've been collecting them for seven days.
00:27:07
Speaker 1: I mean, yes. I mean, you could have it once a day. You could have a conversation about, hey, what went wrong, what went right. Yes, I mean, she didn't give guidance about how often or when, and I think it's just individual. She's the expert.
00:27:19
Speaker 2: We need our guidance.
00:27:20
Speaker 1: She's just suggesting that if you've got somebody who never wants to talk about it, and you've got somebody who always wants to discuss it right then, there's a compromise in the middle. That was what her acknowledgement was. And then she did have this bit of information, and she was directing this more towards families. She talked a lot about political differences, religious differences, all the things that affect families. She said, if you've had the same conversation over and over and over again with this person about how they feel about something, and you know you're not going to change them, but you still want to be in a relationship with them, she said to literally have fun together and remember all the different reasons you love one another. There may be something that is just not going to be resolved. And she actually used her relationship with her father as an example and And she said, at a certain point, if I want to be in a relationship with him and I want to love him, I have to drop it. And I have to focus on what we do agree on, what we can find common ground on, and focus on that. And that was her suggestion. But it was just interesting. I had never heard anybody have these types of advice. And look, for each person, this might speak to one person and be ridiculous to another. It sounds like it's mostly ridiculous to you.
00:28:35
Speaker 2: No.
00:28:35
Speaker 1: But this could speak to somebody who has... a penchant for avoidance. And I do think that is a lot of folks. I tend to be more in that category where you just want it to all be good. You don't want to bring it up. You'd rather just keep the peace, but there is a real danger in doing that. And that was her point. And a lot of it is you acknowledging that you have that tendency and to focus on trying to be more direct and And to not pretend because that is unhealthy peace. I just like that concept of recognizing unhealthy peace.
00:29:11
Speaker 2: I get that now danger and avoidance. Now I'm with, I'm with you a hundred percent on that. And well, sometimes that does keep the peace as well. Wouldn't call it a healthy relationship. You told me about the airport divorces thing, right? I didn't, I didn't think that's healthy, but people want to find peace in their relationship in whatever way. Knock yourself out, however you want to go about doing it. But I, She challenges and gives tips and gives, mine is just simply ask yourself, like, why are you, not being better? You're acknowledging that you do something wrong. You're acknowledging what you're bad at. You know it. It's okay to challenge yourself and nobody else to just be better because what I found is, I don't know if you hear me say this all the time, I do not have a lot of faith. In people. I just don't. Let me screw my own stuff up. Don't do it for me kind of a thing. I just would love for also people to take that challenge on is to just look at yourself and say, yeah, I know I'm doing that. So why do I continue to do it? That's it. And that's helpful. It has been helpful for me.
00:30:23
Speaker 1: You set this up perfectly. Oh, there's more I thought we were going to do. Well, no, because I'm teasing the next episode. Oh, sorry.
00:30:30
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:30:31
Speaker 1: The next episode you're going to see on our feed is five things to ask yourself to prevent a conversation from turning into a fight. So stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, thank you for listening to us, everyone. I'm Amy Robach alongside TJ Holmes. We'll talk very soon.