Sept. 3, 2026
Don’t F**k Around, Get A Prenup!
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RSS Feed Prenups aren’t just for rich people! Divorce attorney Dennis Vetrano joins RHONY Kelly Bensimon and Bachelor Nation alum Courtney Robertson to explain why prenups are important!
From pet clauses to infidelity clauses, we are covering it all!
Email us at: IDOPOD@iheartradio.com or call us at 844-4-I Do Pod (844-443-6763)
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00:00:22
Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two.
00:00:23
Speaker 2: It's your celebrity mentor, Kelly and Simone. And today I'm joined by one of our favorites from bachelor nation and host of the podcast, After Reality, it's Courtney Robertson.
00:00:34
Speaker 3: Hi, Court. Hey, Kelly.
00:00:38
Speaker 2: Today, we get to welcome back to the pod, who's a wealth of information. He's a divorce attorney and huge on TikTok. And today, we're going to talk all about prenups. Welcome back to the pod, Dennis Vetrano. So my knowledge of prenups, I'm so excited to talk to the expert. I did not have a My second engagement, I asked for a prenup. He declined. And so I called off my wedding four days before. That's the decision of my life.
00:01:11
Speaker 3: Smart cookie.
00:01:12
Speaker 2: Provide, protect, and keep you safe. That's what men are supposed to do.
00:01:15
Speaker 1: That's called boundaries. And that's called insisting on them. I love it.
00:01:19
Speaker 3: Dennis, it's Courtney here. And I'm in the throes of a divorce. And to my knowledge, it's cheaper to keep her.
00:01:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for the most part, but here's the funny part about prenups these days. More and more women are opting for prenups and asking for them than ever before. I mean, the recent stat that I looked at was like 52% of women are asking for prenups, which is so foreign to me because having been in this industry for 25 plus years, I'm accustomed to you know, here's this uber successful guy. I, you know, gets married and says, Hey, I want a prenup for all the stuff that I have before we get married. And of course they don't tell you, I want you to be a stay at home mom. I want you to take care of the kids. I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, but if we split, you don't get anything.
00:02:07
Speaker 3: Greedy, greedy. Well, I, last time I checked, I don't have a prenup and I'm in the middle of a divorce and I had just moved into a new house. I have three little kids, everything. I've, I've done my research on you, everything that you're saying I'm going through. So Just to give a little context, my dad didn't have a prenup. He was married for 40 years. He's now remarried for seven years. And what's his is his and what's hers is hers. But I don't have a prenup. And I am going through a very contentious divorce currently.
00:02:39
Speaker 2: Sorry about that, Courtney.
00:02:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I was at least relatively familiar with that. That is... So it's funny because if you poll people, they say the four most scary things in life, top four, one of which is death, right? The other of which is divorce. One, you know, out of the top four scariest things people want, you know, when you say, what's the scariest thing? So I don't envy the situation you're in. And as much as I've seen it from the outside, I've never been through it myself from the inside. So, yeah. you know, stay strong.
00:03:15
Speaker 3: Then I'm also with an attorney. So I have an order of protection, just shout out to that. Uh, I'm going through the proper channels, but it, it is scary, uh, Dennis to talk about that. It's like grief, you know, the five stages of grief and also having three little kids. So I'll, I'm sorry to jump in so quick, but, uh, last night was the first night I didn't have the kids for a week, uh, dealing with three little kids on your own. Is also scary.
00:03:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's funny because there's, but listen, there's two sides to that, right? So there's the scary part of having them with you and managing everything because that's a lot. But then even worse than that, not having them with you. Because when you establish that relationship with your kids, I mean, I have two of my own. It's like you go through so much to raise kids well. And I say, well, okay, anybody can just throw together kids and then it's not as hard. But to raise kids well, it's a lot. But then you establish such a bond with them that when they're not around. It's funny because my brother-in-law, we see each other from time to time. He has four kids. And his last kid just went off to college. And he said to me, Dennis, he says, I think this is the high watermark in my life. Not to say you don't have your own independence and your own stuff.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: No, but it is. It is.
00:04:34
Speaker 3: I keep saying it's so easy to get married. And it's so... expensive and hard to get divorced.
00:04:41
Speaker 1: Yep.
00:04:42
Speaker 3: It's, it's, it's a lot. And like I said, I just, I'm moving new surroundings and, um, but yeah, it's, I mean, it's like the only degree they, they grant you, it's like going to college, right? They, you can get married, done, easy. To get unmarried, the thing that I want people to know, it's really, really expensive and really hard.
00:05:04
Speaker 1: Yep.
00:05:05
Speaker 2: Well, it's not just hard and expensive, but actually it's a basically it's a filing. And so it's not up to you, your lawyer and your ex-husband. As Dennis knows, it's the state that decides when and how. And so you're dealing with a fourth party. And I'm sorry that you're going through that. You know, it's interesting, Dennis, too, because I'm such a huge fan of yours on TikTok and you say so many great things. You talk about prenups not being romantic. So when I tried to, you know, instill my prenup, my ex would have said no. But a lot of people who are getting these prenups are realizing that these are just pieces of paper that really aren't valid. Because once you go into the divorce process, people are like, that prenup, it doesn't work. I'm not giving you X. I'm not giving you Y. What are your thoughts?
00:05:56
Speaker 1: It doesn't work if you do it poorly. If you do it well, it will likely work. So if you walk into my office tomorrow and you say, hey, I've had these assets premarital. I've earned these things. I built my company. I released a record album. I published a book, whatever it is. Those generally can and should stay yours as part of the prenup. If you say in the next breath, well, I want to say that I don't have to pay child support if she has the kids and I don't want to. People want to put ridiculous things in prenups. And the problem is then when you get to court, they just look ridiculous. So now the court, and the standard varies from state to state. As best I'm aware, there are some other states that basically say, we're just going to do a redo when we look at your prenup and see if it's fair. If it's fair, according to the laws in your state, and in a way that they would resolve the divorce in your state, then it's upheld. And if it's not, then they just revisit everything. So then to me, it can kind of be somewhat worthless. But here's the point. I've never been the divorce lawyer that says, let's see how we can screw this person out of that. Screw this person out of this. It doesn't get you anywhere. So let's put it this way. Even if you did that, what do you end up with on the other side? Somebody who's pissed off. They feel like they've been taken advantage of. And then we say, okay, good luck. Sit next to each other at graduation. Go to your first communion together. Watch them get married. That's never going to work. That's never going to work.
00:07:27
Speaker 3: Can I ask a question real quick, honey?
00:07:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
00:07:30
Speaker 3: So I'm in the divorce. My divorce is filing and it's filed. It was June 19th, my son's birthday, which is the national holiday. But I put a waste clause in because I've been dealing with infidelity in my divorce filing. So, you know, I'm in Arizona, so it's a no fault state. So all the infidelity. But let's say he's been spending money on girlfriends, this and that to kind of walk it back a little bit. I put a waste clause in my divorce filing. Can you speak to that a little bit? Like what we earn during, you know, I have the podcast, this, that, the other thing, just to kind of run it back a little bit.
00:08:08
Speaker 1: Recoup that for sure. Okay. Recoup that for sure. And, and again, you know, one of the more contentious divorces I had Westchester County, which is one of the bigger, one of the higher income areas, one of the bigger areas in our, uh, in my locale, um, Yeah, there was lingerie for the girlfriend. There were chips.
00:08:25
Speaker 3: Was it good lingerie or tacky shit?
00:08:28
Speaker 1: Oh, good God.
00:08:29
Speaker 3: Who knows?
00:08:30
Speaker 2: Who knows?
00:08:31
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, from this fellow's behavior, I mean, he was kind of like, you know, and then come home to the wife and want to kind of have the cake and eat it too sort of thing.
00:08:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm dealing with.
00:08:41
Speaker 2: So, Dennis, do these clauses like infidelity clauses, waste clauses, do they actually hold up in court?
00:08:48
Speaker 1: I think so. It really just depends on your particular state. And in my mind, if it's me, if you come into my office and you're saying like, hey, I want to try to uphold this, I usually suggest no. I usually suggest those are very difficult. Those are very difficult to uphold, you know, at least in New York State because they're going to look very foreign to the judges. We do mostly vanilla prenups. And I prefer to do vanilla nuts and bolts prenups. I don't want to start putting these fringe terms into it because then you know what? Now it's subjected to being questioned and motion practice and possibly hearings on it. And what does that do? It costs you money. Do I want to charge you more money after the prenup or less? The point of the prenup is to save you money. It's not to get charged money. So I'm like, look, if you're worried about this person cheating on you, you have much larger issues to really... analyze.
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Bigger fish to fry.
00:09:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:09:47
Speaker 2: So speaking of these prenups and let's bring in postnups as well, should they be updated? And if so, how frequently?
00:09:55
Speaker 1: They can be updated, but what you want to do with a prenup is you want to keep it as broad as you can. So it will cover the future. Now, if things change during the marriage, I mean, postnups are more difficult to uphold than prenups because prenups is before you get married, you're kind of protecting things. Now, once you start asking people for things to negotiate things they've acquired during the marriage, you're kind of flying in the face of the standard under the law. Because technically in New York State, once you get married, everything you're earning, everything you're building is generally together unless your prenup says something otherwise. So what I prefer to do is the way our prenup is crafted, it's crafted in a situation that basically says your separate stuff that you had prior to the marriage is separate. And if the two of you say, hey, I decide... whatever I make under my name in terms of building, et cetera, is mine. So, okay, I have a software company and I invent something during the marriage that I've done solely exclusively in and of myself. I want that to stay mine and mine alone. I mean, those generally can and should be upheld. But if it's like we worked together and we bought a house and now I want to say like who split, sometimes those are difficult. The post-nups, I suggest when marriages are on the rocks, And you're trying counseling and it's just not working. You're not quite sure where it's going to go. While you're still relatively level-headed and you're not mired in the midst of litigation, try to reach an agreement. I love that. Try to be fair and do a post-nup. I mean, I suggest, look, either get out or both jump in with both feet to counseling and try to work through it.
00:11:37
Speaker 2: I also love on TikTok how you talk about mediation. And that's how I, my ex-husband and I, we got divorced. You know, he was a high profile person in the fashion industry. I was a high profile person in the fashion industry. And it just, my best friend was like, he literally drove up to my house. He's like, this is how you're going to get divorced. You're going to have a mediator, your accountant, his accountant. You guys are going to tie a bow on it. We're going to put it in the press, one line in the press, and it's going to be over. And it was the smartest, smartest thing. The only thing that I regret, like obviously the post-nup, the pre-nup was the smart thing for me to do with my last relationship. What I didn't like is I didn't like all the press around it. And I was very concerned, the daughter of a lawyer, very concerned that people were going to perceive me as this hard woman that gets the prenup. And I'm not a hard woman. I'm just a mother protecting my nest.
00:12:35
Speaker 3: Mama bear. I'm a mama bear too. Kelly, I love you. And I'm going to take your energy, but- I think that the next question should be, how should you approach having someone sign a prenup or a postnup? And also, you're in the public eye as well. But Dennis, how should you approach having someone sign a prenup that's being resistant to the idea?
00:13:00
Speaker 1: Well, let's put it this way. Let's start with being concerned or not about being in the public eye. Yes, it's a very real thing. And for many people, your livelihood depends on your public image. How many? Ever.
00:13:13
Speaker 3: Right.
00:13:13
Speaker 1: However, you've got to protect yourself and protect your kids and protect the things you've worked so hard for. So for the successful ladies out there, especially and even just I have a lot of young professionals that they're banking on themselves. They're like, I know what my brand is and I know what it's going to be. And I don't want a chance if this doesn't work that I lose everything.
00:13:35
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you say that because I work in high-end real estate. And so I work in the transaction business in my other life. And I was afraid when I asked him to sign the prenup and then I called the wedding off and the press was going. And I was like, oh my God, the press is going to come after me and say that I'm all these things. And which was interesting is that my clients were like, that is so buttoned up. You were so amazing. The press and the public were very, very, very welcoming. I mean, this podcast really started because of my situation, which is so unbelievable. Good to talk to people like Courtney.
00:14:12
Speaker 3: They make money. The press, everybody has a job to do, right?
00:14:15
Speaker 1: Right.
00:14:16
Speaker 2: But I'm just, my point, my point is, is that I, it could have gone the other way. It could have been a way where it's like Kelly's a monster, all these things. But it was the opposite where we have this new podcast. We're learning all this information. We're bonding together as a community. How do we help other people so that they are not in a situation like ours? And so I was just very, very, very so happy about it. But it was interesting because some people in the real estate industry were like, oh, this is going to hurt your business. I was like, no, no, no. they love it because I'm locked up. They love it that I'm like very professional with my personal life and my professional life. And it was like, it literally pivoted me in even a bigger direction for work.
00:15:03
Speaker 3: But that's a lot of weight on your shoulders to carry.
00:15:07
Speaker 2: You think?
00:15:07
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, look at those little frail shoulders. Like I have, you know, I just got back from Sedona. I've been healing and Dennis, you can hop in whenever, but that's a lot to carry mentally. Like I think, and what I saw on you, Dennis, it's like the woman tends to be the she fault parent. Right. Um, and that's just how it goes. Like I'm moving, I'm filing for divorce. I'm leaving the husband. Who's a narc, a narcissist. Like, So you're dealing with the public media stuff and you can't carry all of that. At some point you will break. Right.
00:15:43
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Guys have been doing that for decades, hundreds of years without any backlash. Right. So now here's what I say. So you need a support system when you go through your divorce process. And anything associated with a breakup, a prenup, whatever it is, you should have a support system. And if you're in a position where you're a high profile person, you got to have a PR person there getting their arms around this thing because there is nothing easier, in my opinion, or more compelling than female empowerment of all of your success and say, hey, Things guys have been doing for decades. Things guys have been doing for hundreds of years. Now, just like 51%, 52% of women are now asking for prenups. There's no shame. There's no embarrassment. There's nothing to explain. If everything you've worked so hard for, including your family and your kids, you're stepping up and protecting. And you've got control of your situation and you're dealing with it. There's no reason. In my opinion, there's no more compelling story than that.
00:17:00
Speaker 2: I love that you're dispelling the stigma by 52% and saying that women are now making these great decisions. And I love that so much. Just because you get a prenup doesn't mean you're not a beautiful woman. You get a prenup because you're protecting your family legacy.
00:17:17
Speaker 3: Well, I hear you talking about core values and I'm still in the throes of it. And Like for me, like, you know, my husband isn't in the tech world. We don't have a lot of assets, but I am curious. The house is our only asset. So he's going to either, I either have to buy him out to walk it back. You know, Kelly, sorry. You know, I'm going through it, but that's our main asset is the house. I'm on it. And I would like to ask that, you know, either he's going to have to buy me out or I'm going to have to buy him out. I don't want to live there anymore because there's too many ghosts. I've just moved, like I said. Dennis, if you could speak to that for somebody who, you know, might be going through it on a smaller scale.
00:18:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think, listen, we handle multi, multi, multimillion dollar asset divorces. And we also handle just general two wage earners. You know, mom's a teacher. Dad works for IBM. Like they have a couple of, you know, pension plans, retirements and a house. We deal with hundreds of those, if not thousands.
00:18:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:18:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. As you go through these processes, and I'll share with you another story. I never felt worse about myself than when I applied for my first mortgage. This is many years ago, right? And this is my wife had already been very successful at that point, right? I was a lawyer. I was very successful, but I didn't really have my finances in order. Mortgage broker looks at me. He's like, you got too much debt. You don't make enough money. You're like, give me the house.
00:18:49
Speaker 3: I'm buying a house.
00:18:50
Speaker 1: But listen. That experience allowed me to build on something that got me to where I am. So the reality, the harsh reality of going... Because most people don't do a net worth statement until they go through a divorce process. The harsh reality of looking at that net worth statement and saying, hey, I need to make more money. Hey, and that is a motivating factor. That knowledge... And that experience is power moving forward. You can't look at it like, oh my God, I'm terrible.
00:19:24
Speaker 3: Knowledge is power.
00:19:27
Speaker 1: It is a starting point. It's not an end. So when we talk about the cases where, yes, maybe all there is to divide is a house. But then what I say to you is, why in the hell are we going back and forth with two lawyers to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars to say, so I'll give you a perfect example. I'm your lawyer, Courtney. Courtney, your husband wants to know if he can pick up the children at 4.30. No, no, I can't. I can only do 4.15. Okay, now I charge you for that phone conversation.
00:19:58
Speaker 3: He changed the locks on me the other day and I have the order of protection so I can't get my personal belongings.
00:20:04
Speaker 1: But there's going to be 25 phone calls over every little... 15 minute increments.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: Right. Right.
00:20:15
Speaker 1: So, so what I say to clients is I tell them and I think, you know, and, and, and what pains me in the case is where there isn't a whole lot to really fight over. And yet my client says to me, I don't care, Dennis, this is going to be contentious. It's going to be a knockdown drag out. I'd say, average divorce lawyer per side in New York state is 20 to like.
00:20:36
Speaker 2: $ 50, 000.
00:20:36
Speaker 1: Like, what are you going to, where is that money coming from?
00:20:40
Speaker 3: Dennis, you're going to make me cry.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know what? You will get through the process. You will be better on the other side. You just have to stay patient and keep your team, your support team close to help you through it. Hmm.
00:20:58
Speaker 2: You know, what was interesting is that, you know, people think that after I called off my wedding, that my life was just going to be like, you know, it's like, oh, Kelly's so rich. Everything's so great. Well, my taxes weren't filed correctly. So after I called off my wedding, there was like crazy amount of taxes that hadn't been allocated for or organized. So not only did I feel like absolute shit, even though I was protecting myself, then I had to, then I was like in a financial situation. So I'm like, let me get this straight. So I do the right thing. And now I'm getting slammed with a big tax bill. Like, how does this math work? Like how, you know, so everybody caught my, my, the reason I'm bringing this up is not because it's a pity party for me, but to tell you that you're not alone and there's there, you're going to have these emotions and you're going to go through these things. And, you know, financial trauma is, you know, it's not, it's your, it's a constant. You're like, how am I supposed to do this? How am I supposed to say that again, please?
00:22:01
Speaker 1: You're not alone.
00:22:03
Speaker 2: You're not, you're.
00:22:04
Speaker 1: Not alone for people who are listening and tuning in. You are not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the same boat that you're in and you will get through it. You will see the other side. Just keep your eye on the horizon. Block out the noise.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: Kelly, you're the talent, Kelly, by the way. I don't do well with paperwork. I was married, hopefully soon, to be ex, who's an attorney who's also intimidated me with the law. I'm surrounded by attorneys. But you talk about how scary it is going through that. But Kelly, you're a talent, and so am I. I've always had people helping me. I modeled for 15 years with paperwork and documents. That alone is scary. I have a stack of paperwork that's filing up right now because I'm going to get spousal maintenance. I'm going to get child support. And I have to fill out this document. So when you talk about your taxes, I mean, talk about Uncle Sam. It's stressful.
00:23:01
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
00:23:03
Speaker 2: Right, but people just think it's like, people think that in our industry, if you do something that's bright, that everything else is just so great. Well, to your point, there's all this back a house that just kind of can be really, really devastating. Okay, I need to ask this question because this is a big, big, big question, Dennis. Pet co-parenting.
00:23:26
Speaker 1: Oh.
00:23:27
Speaker 2: What can a pet clause help with after divorce? Because people are not having children as much, but they are having a lot of pets, raising pets.
00:23:40
Speaker 1: The problem with pet clauses is that the way New York State views it now, it's almost like custody for children. So in the same way, theoretically, that custody for children could be a battle, whether you have terms about it in the prenup or not, because the situation is constantly changing. Not as much with pets as they are with kids. Because kids' circumstances changes, age, school, et cetera. But I think, look, I think if you're doing a prenup, put it in there. Put it in there. Because minimally, even if it's not entirely enforceable, the judge will get the flavor for or the spirit of what the two of you had already contractually previously agreed to. So you can't say when you come into court, well, they never had a relationship with the pet. They didn't want anything to do with the pet. No, it's in the damn prenup. We negotiated for it.
00:24:34
Speaker 3: I just grabbed my cat the other day. It's my cat. I've had him for 10 years. So Kelly.
00:24:39
Speaker 2: I just feel like, you know, children, pets, it's just like another tether for either the fake female or the male, whoever is the one that is, you know, has more animosity because there's always, there's, you know, there's always one. who takes things differently and they use it.
00:24:57
Speaker 1: It's a tool. And I don't mean that in a positive sense. No. It's a tool for them to put this. I have one going on, you know, right now. And I've had tons of them where they use the pet as a lever, as a tool to get at your emotions. They don't give a shit about the pet. They never have. They don't care.
00:25:16
Speaker 2: You wanted to go on a vacation. Well, you have to pick up the cat or dog at 7 a.m. You can't go on the vacation.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Right, right. And the problem for me, is that those cases tend to, many times, not always, they tend to also be the cases where the only asset is a house or you're not multimillionaires, you're making decent living, you're doing really well, successful, but you don't have 50,000 a side, 100,000 a side to fight over the pet. And what pains me about it is I have to say, I get it. But you got to take away the things. You got to take away as many things as you can from the other side that they're using as tool to get at you with. You got to take those things away.
00:26:01
Speaker 3: How do you do that in writing? I mean, I grabbed my cat the other day. I mean, so can we dig a little deeper there? Like, how do you take those tools away? It's in the prenup or what if you don't have a prenup? Because I just grabbed my cat the other day and I've had the cat for 10 years.
00:26:19
Speaker 1: So I think I think if You had it prior to the marriage?
00:26:23
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: Okay. So that's not as much of an issue. If it was something you acquired during the marriage, technically, you know, a little bit different.
00:26:33
Speaker 3: Pets mean a lot. They're like kids to some people.
00:26:37
Speaker 2: It is.
00:26:38
Speaker 1: And it's very easy if you say, hey, it's the 40th anniversary Corvette that, you know, that she really loves. And like, I'm just going to like hang and hold it over her head and like try to get at her with it. That's fine. Cause then I just say, let go of the car. Who cares? Whatever it's worth, let him have it. But when it's a pet or it's kids and you can't do it with kids clearly. And now you really can't do it with pets either. I mean, listen, I have three German shepherds and two horses and a bunch of chickens. So we have a little bit of a hobby farm at the house. So, um, so I couldn't imagine not having the pets around.
00:27:17
Speaker 3: Do you have any amazing divorce stories where you've had to tell somebody, like, you got to lose the Corvette? Because that's also interesting to me. Like, how do those conversations go? Like, how do you let somebody down gently? Like, you don't get the chickens. You don't get the Corvette. I mean, I would love to hear a little dialogue on that.
00:27:36
Speaker 1: I really don't do it, to be honest. I really don't let people down gently. I don't because that's not what you pay me for. You pay me for it. And I've used this quote 100 times, I think, on the last show as well. I tell you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. Right. Because if I tell you what you want to hear, I'm going to say, oh, we're going to do this. So many lawyers do that. Even when the, even in the initial consultation, we're going to get this. We're going to, I remember overhearing consultation we did a little while ago. And the other side says to, or the prospective client says to our lawyer, I just want to make sure we do this and that to stick it to him.
00:28:13
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
00:28:14
Speaker 1: Not what we do. Not what we do. Because here's what happens. If I do that, let's say I'm unscrupulous and I don't care and I just want to make money. Let's just say that's who I am, but I'm not. Then I take money from you. I fight him or her. Then I ask you for more money to fight him or her. Then I ask you for more money to fight him or her. And then at the end of the day, we don't get what you're looking for because it was ridiculous from the start. And the judge saw through You just trying to stick it to the other side. Now I've spent $ 100, 000 of your money litigating for something you didn't accomplish. And guess who they want to stick it to now?
00:28:53
Speaker 2: You, the messenger always gets killed.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: Don't shoot the messenger. And also I think like, cause I'm dealing with an attorney, there's a code of ethics and you have a good, you're a good human being and you're a good man, but I would love to hear. So you, you don't, you, you let them, you just tell them how it is.
00:29:11
Speaker 1: I just don't. Sometimes they go and find another lawyer. That's okay. It's so funny because people ask, well, do you ever represent narcissists? You know, people who are just out to get the other side.
00:29:22
Speaker 3: I said, Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. I take them as I find them. But my job is to try to translate what you want, what you're seeking to accomplish in a way that's going to be palatable or understandable to the judge. Right. But if you're coming up with something that's ridiculous, I'm. just not going to do that. And I'll say, look, here's what's fair in this case. Here's what we're going to try to accomplish. Because I think with resolutions in divorce cases, the small things are everything. So the little nuances in your custody or your assets make a huge difference over time.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: Dennis, when I was winding down from trying to get the prenup organized, I was with Marilyn Chintz, who was my lawyer. And I'll never forget walking into her office. And I was so nervous. My hands were clammy. And I sat down and I just started bawling my eyes out. I was like, Marilyn, why can I not meet a man who wants to protect me? What is going on? That's what I came in with. Not like I'm such a baller. I'm going to do this. I'm on housewives. I was like, what is wrong with me? And I think a lot of women feel like that as well. They're like, women feel like that. They're like, why don't they love me enough to protect me? And I think that that's a very common thing. And when I told a friend of mine that I was crying, She's like, why would you be crying? I'm like, because I'm just so disappointed in myself, in him. There's a lot of shame and embarrassment. Yes. I was so embarrassed. I mean, Courtney, I was humiliated, even though it was the right thing to do. The good news is that he's not my lobster. I'm going to find my lobster. He's going to come. He's on his way. I know he's on his way because I feel finally after... you know, my ex-husband who is so much older than me cheating on me. And then this guy not wanting to do a prenup. Like I am now, like I feel so good about myself. So I'm not going to cry in a lawyer's office anymore. I am going to embrace my new future.
00:31:36
Speaker 1: Yay!
00:31:39
Speaker 3: I'm going to come with you.
00:31:40
Speaker 2: With my new mystery human, whoever that is.
00:31:44
Speaker 3: You don't need somebody. You got yourself. And I keep telling everybody that, like the freedom and taking your power back is what we're doing here today and helping people. And Dennis and Kelly, thank you. It's scary. You cry. It's the five stages of grief. Right now, I'm obviously in the mad phase today.
00:32:06
Speaker 2: But you got your cat back.
00:32:08
Speaker 3: I got my cat. I got him. Smokey Robertson.
00:32:10
Speaker 1: Smokey Robertson.
00:32:11
Speaker 3: That's great.
00:32:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:32:23
Speaker 3: Okay.
00:32:23
Speaker 1: Last and final questions.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: What are the things you see people freak out over when it comes to prenups?
00:32:30
Speaker 1: I think the biggest things they freak out about is figuring out how they're going to discuss initially having a prenup and the fact that the other person needs to be part of the plan. I mean, I think the problem with a lot of the, you know, I hate to sound like it's sexist, but a lot of the guys that I've dealt with that are uber successful and maybe are marrying somebody substantially younger than them. And like, you could, you can just see the control sort of like there. Um, but they're like, you know, the reality is, but wait a sec, but you said that you, they're going to be a stay at home mom and you're going to take care of this. And that, well, I have to give, well, this could be overturned. Like I, I can't say I won't have to pay child support and I won't have to pay maintenance. Like, no, like, you know, and I think, listen, the, one of the biggest problems we have with prenups is that people don't know how to approach that conversation. Um, And they wait until like we had one just the other day. Can you get a prenup done in four weeks? I can, but, you know, when you try to rush a prenup and they don't have a lawyer and you just want me to draft something to hand to them to sign and you're handing it to them like on the altar steps, like those really call into question the reliabilities and the sustainability of that prenup. A prenup done well has a lot of disclosure, which is exchange of information, a lot of transparency, which means see what each person has on each side, And it takes a lot of time to negotiate well with each person having a representative. That's what makes the prenup most reliable. Because if you do that prenup where you hand it to the other person that your lawyer drafted the prenup, they don't know much about it. You hand it to them on the altar steps and they sign it. And then six months later, a year later, five years later, you want to walk in and say, Oh, but I've got a prenup. And they're like, but this person didn't have a lawyer. They didn't have any disclosure. They didn't know anything about it. They felt like they were under duress.
00:34:43
Speaker 3: That's like the Gary Turner, the first golden bachelor got married on TV to Teresa Nist. And they, she was the one that wanted to look it up, wanted a prenup. They got married on ABC show, just saying. Um, and, uh, But it seems like a fight, you know, and like you said, you don't want to sneak that in. You have to. It sounds like it starts at the beginning of the relationship.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because when you buy a home or you're buying an apartment, you have to show the assets. So it's like, wait a minute, all of a sudden you go to get married and you don't want to show assets. And I think too, and I think we're going to say thank you guys so much. We've gone through so much with the emotional trauma, the financial trauma. Dennis, you have the best advice. Your TikTok is amazing, insightful, and fun. Courtney, you and your family love you. We hope everything goes well. And I'm here for you on and offline.
00:35:43
Speaker 3: I'm here for you. You guys are both shotgun for me.
00:35:49
Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies. This was so much fun. Do it first. I love that, Courtney. Do it first. Get the information first, way before the prenup, so you know who you're marrying. Sorry, I had to squeeze that in.
00:36:01
Speaker 3: No, no, squeeze it all in. I don't want to rush the conversation. I want to, I think that we all have a voice and I think that you and all three of us have something in common, a common thread. It's no accident that we are here today to use our voices and our power to help people that don't know that have to run in the house and grab the cat. And now the locks are changed on me. Like you don't know what you don't know. And I hope that we can prevent other people from feeling as terrible as divorce can feel because it's very scary.
00:36:37
Speaker 1: And if you don't have a support group, you think you have no one. You don't have no one. You're not alone. You're right here, right here. This is your support group.
00:36:46
Speaker 2: There you go. Oh, you're going to make me cry, Dennis.
00:36:50
Speaker 1: Seriously. I'd love that.
00:36:51
Speaker 3: I'm going to go get a cheeseburger and a cold beer on you.
00:36:54
Speaker 1: Yes, please.
00:36:58
Speaker 3: We got to laugh our way through it. You know, I know my sense of humor isn't for everybody. Let's go. I want onions. All right, you guys, I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of I do part two with me and Kelly and Dennis. If you did, please rate, review, subscribe, maybe share it with a friend that this could help. That's what we're here for. Do you have questions about prenups? Maybe you need some advice. We want to help. So send us an email or leave a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes and follow us on social media. That's the digital age we live in. I do part two, an I heart podcast where falling in love is the main objective, but also please fall in love with yourself. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Hey, I do part two.
00:00:23
Speaker 2: It's your celebrity mentor, Kelly and Simone. And today I'm joined by one of our favorites from bachelor nation and host of the podcast, After Reality, it's Courtney Robertson.
00:00:34
Speaker 3: Hi, Court. Hey, Kelly.
00:00:38
Speaker 2: Today, we get to welcome back to the pod, who's a wealth of information. He's a divorce attorney and huge on TikTok. And today, we're going to talk all about prenups. Welcome back to the pod, Dennis Vetrano. So my knowledge of prenups, I'm so excited to talk to the expert. I did not have a My second engagement, I asked for a prenup. He declined. And so I called off my wedding four days before. That's the decision of my life.
00:01:11
Speaker 3: Smart cookie.
00:01:12
Speaker 2: Provide, protect, and keep you safe. That's what men are supposed to do.
00:01:15
Speaker 1: That's called boundaries. And that's called insisting on them. I love it.
00:01:19
Speaker 3: Dennis, it's Courtney here. And I'm in the throes of a divorce. And to my knowledge, it's cheaper to keep her.
00:01:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for the most part, but here's the funny part about prenups these days. More and more women are opting for prenups and asking for them than ever before. I mean, the recent stat that I looked at was like 52% of women are asking for prenups, which is so foreign to me because having been in this industry for 25 plus years, I'm accustomed to you know, here's this uber successful guy. I, you know, gets married and says, Hey, I want a prenup for all the stuff that I have before we get married. And of course they don't tell you, I want you to be a stay at home mom. I want you to take care of the kids. I want, I want, I want, I want, I want, but if we split, you don't get anything.
00:02:07
Speaker 3: Greedy, greedy. Well, I, last time I checked, I don't have a prenup and I'm in the middle of a divorce and I had just moved into a new house. I have three little kids, everything. I've, I've done my research on you, everything that you're saying I'm going through. So Just to give a little context, my dad didn't have a prenup. He was married for 40 years. He's now remarried for seven years. And what's his is his and what's hers is hers. But I don't have a prenup. And I am going through a very contentious divorce currently.
00:02:39
Speaker 2: Sorry about that, Courtney.
00:02:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And I was at least relatively familiar with that. That is... So it's funny because if you poll people, they say the four most scary things in life, top four, one of which is death, right? The other of which is divorce. One, you know, out of the top four scariest things people want, you know, when you say, what's the scariest thing? So I don't envy the situation you're in. And as much as I've seen it from the outside, I've never been through it myself from the inside. So, yeah. you know, stay strong.
00:03:15
Speaker 3: Then I'm also with an attorney. So I have an order of protection, just shout out to that. Uh, I'm going through the proper channels, but it, it is scary, uh, Dennis to talk about that. It's like grief, you know, the five stages of grief and also having three little kids. So I'll, I'm sorry to jump in so quick, but, uh, last night was the first night I didn't have the kids for a week, uh, dealing with three little kids on your own. Is also scary.
00:03:45
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's funny because there's, but listen, there's two sides to that, right? So there's the scary part of having them with you and managing everything because that's a lot. But then even worse than that, not having them with you. Because when you establish that relationship with your kids, I mean, I have two of my own. It's like you go through so much to raise kids well. And I say, well, okay, anybody can just throw together kids and then it's not as hard. But to raise kids well, it's a lot. But then you establish such a bond with them that when they're not around. It's funny because my brother-in-law, we see each other from time to time. He has four kids. And his last kid just went off to college. And he said to me, Dennis, he says, I think this is the high watermark in my life. Not to say you don't have your own independence and your own stuff.
00:04:32
Speaker 2: No, but it is. It is.
00:04:34
Speaker 3: I keep saying it's so easy to get married. And it's so... expensive and hard to get divorced.
00:04:41
Speaker 1: Yep.
00:04:42
Speaker 3: It's, it's, it's a lot. And like I said, I just, I'm moving new surroundings and, um, but yeah, it's, I mean, it's like the only degree they, they grant you, it's like going to college, right? They, you can get married, done, easy. To get unmarried, the thing that I want people to know, it's really, really expensive and really hard.
00:05:04
Speaker 1: Yep.
00:05:05
Speaker 2: Well, it's not just hard and expensive, but actually it's a basically it's a filing. And so it's not up to you, your lawyer and your ex-husband. As Dennis knows, it's the state that decides when and how. And so you're dealing with a fourth party. And I'm sorry that you're going through that. You know, it's interesting, Dennis, too, because I'm such a huge fan of yours on TikTok and you say so many great things. You talk about prenups not being romantic. So when I tried to, you know, instill my prenup, my ex would have said no. But a lot of people who are getting these prenups are realizing that these are just pieces of paper that really aren't valid. Because once you go into the divorce process, people are like, that prenup, it doesn't work. I'm not giving you X. I'm not giving you Y. What are your thoughts?
00:05:56
Speaker 1: It doesn't work if you do it poorly. If you do it well, it will likely work. So if you walk into my office tomorrow and you say, hey, I've had these assets premarital. I've earned these things. I built my company. I released a record album. I published a book, whatever it is. Those generally can and should stay yours as part of the prenup. If you say in the next breath, well, I want to say that I don't have to pay child support if she has the kids and I don't want to. People want to put ridiculous things in prenups. And the problem is then when you get to court, they just look ridiculous. So now the court, and the standard varies from state to state. As best I'm aware, there are some other states that basically say, we're just going to do a redo when we look at your prenup and see if it's fair. If it's fair, according to the laws in your state, and in a way that they would resolve the divorce in your state, then it's upheld. And if it's not, then they just revisit everything. So then to me, it can kind of be somewhat worthless. But here's the point. I've never been the divorce lawyer that says, let's see how we can screw this person out of that. Screw this person out of this. It doesn't get you anywhere. So let's put it this way. Even if you did that, what do you end up with on the other side? Somebody who's pissed off. They feel like they've been taken advantage of. And then we say, okay, good luck. Sit next to each other at graduation. Go to your first communion together. Watch them get married. That's never going to work. That's never going to work.
00:07:27
Speaker 3: Can I ask a question real quick, honey?
00:07:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.
00:07:30
Speaker 3: So I'm in the divorce. My divorce is filing and it's filed. It was June 19th, my son's birthday, which is the national holiday. But I put a waste clause in because I've been dealing with infidelity in my divorce filing. So, you know, I'm in Arizona, so it's a no fault state. So all the infidelity. But let's say he's been spending money on girlfriends, this and that to kind of walk it back a little bit. I put a waste clause in my divorce filing. Can you speak to that a little bit? Like what we earn during, you know, I have the podcast, this, that, the other thing, just to kind of run it back a little bit.
00:08:08
Speaker 1: Recoup that for sure. Okay. Recoup that for sure. And, and again, you know, one of the more contentious divorces I had Westchester County, which is one of the bigger, one of the higher income areas, one of the bigger areas in our, uh, in my locale, um, Yeah, there was lingerie for the girlfriend. There were chips.
00:08:25
Speaker 3: Was it good lingerie or tacky shit?
00:08:28
Speaker 1: Oh, good God.
00:08:29
Speaker 3: Who knows?
00:08:30
Speaker 2: Who knows?
00:08:31
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, from this fellow's behavior, I mean, he was kind of like, you know, and then come home to the wife and want to kind of have the cake and eat it too sort of thing.
00:08:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm dealing with.
00:08:41
Speaker 2: So, Dennis, do these clauses like infidelity clauses, waste clauses, do they actually hold up in court?
00:08:48
Speaker 1: I think so. It really just depends on your particular state. And in my mind, if it's me, if you come into my office and you're saying like, hey, I want to try to uphold this, I usually suggest no. I usually suggest those are very difficult. Those are very difficult to uphold, you know, at least in New York State because they're going to look very foreign to the judges. We do mostly vanilla prenups. And I prefer to do vanilla nuts and bolts prenups. I don't want to start putting these fringe terms into it because then you know what? Now it's subjected to being questioned and motion practice and possibly hearings on it. And what does that do? It costs you money. Do I want to charge you more money after the prenup or less? The point of the prenup is to save you money. It's not to get charged money. So I'm like, look, if you're worried about this person cheating on you, you have much larger issues to really... analyze.
00:09:44
Speaker 2: Bigger fish to fry.
00:09:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:09:47
Speaker 2: So speaking of these prenups and let's bring in postnups as well, should they be updated? And if so, how frequently?
00:09:55
Speaker 1: They can be updated, but what you want to do with a prenup is you want to keep it as broad as you can. So it will cover the future. Now, if things change during the marriage, I mean, postnups are more difficult to uphold than prenups because prenups is before you get married, you're kind of protecting things. Now, once you start asking people for things to negotiate things they've acquired during the marriage, you're kind of flying in the face of the standard under the law. Because technically in New York State, once you get married, everything you're earning, everything you're building is generally together unless your prenup says something otherwise. So what I prefer to do is the way our prenup is crafted, it's crafted in a situation that basically says your separate stuff that you had prior to the marriage is separate. And if the two of you say, hey, I decide... whatever I make under my name in terms of building, et cetera, is mine. So, okay, I have a software company and I invent something during the marriage that I've done solely exclusively in and of myself. I want that to stay mine and mine alone. I mean, those generally can and should be upheld. But if it's like we worked together and we bought a house and now I want to say like who split, sometimes those are difficult. The post-nups, I suggest when marriages are on the rocks, And you're trying counseling and it's just not working. You're not quite sure where it's going to go. While you're still relatively level-headed and you're not mired in the midst of litigation, try to reach an agreement. I love that. Try to be fair and do a post-nup. I mean, I suggest, look, either get out or both jump in with both feet to counseling and try to work through it.
00:11:37
Speaker 2: I also love on TikTok how you talk about mediation. And that's how I, my ex-husband and I, we got divorced. You know, he was a high profile person in the fashion industry. I was a high profile person in the fashion industry. And it just, my best friend was like, he literally drove up to my house. He's like, this is how you're going to get divorced. You're going to have a mediator, your accountant, his accountant. You guys are going to tie a bow on it. We're going to put it in the press, one line in the press, and it's going to be over. And it was the smartest, smartest thing. The only thing that I regret, like obviously the post-nup, the pre-nup was the smart thing for me to do with my last relationship. What I didn't like is I didn't like all the press around it. And I was very concerned, the daughter of a lawyer, very concerned that people were going to perceive me as this hard woman that gets the prenup. And I'm not a hard woman. I'm just a mother protecting my nest.
00:12:35
Speaker 3: Mama bear. I'm a mama bear too. Kelly, I love you. And I'm going to take your energy, but- I think that the next question should be, how should you approach having someone sign a prenup or a postnup? And also, you're in the public eye as well. But Dennis, how should you approach having someone sign a prenup that's being resistant to the idea?
00:13:00
Speaker 1: Well, let's put it this way. Let's start with being concerned or not about being in the public eye. Yes, it's a very real thing. And for many people, your livelihood depends on your public image. How many? Ever.
00:13:13
Speaker 3: Right.
00:13:13
Speaker 1: However, you've got to protect yourself and protect your kids and protect the things you've worked so hard for. So for the successful ladies out there, especially and even just I have a lot of young professionals that they're banking on themselves. They're like, I know what my brand is and I know what it's going to be. And I don't want a chance if this doesn't work that I lose everything.
00:13:35
Speaker 2: So it's interesting that you say that because I work in high-end real estate. And so I work in the transaction business in my other life. And I was afraid when I asked him to sign the prenup and then I called the wedding off and the press was going. And I was like, oh my God, the press is going to come after me and say that I'm all these things. And which was interesting is that my clients were like, that is so buttoned up. You were so amazing. The press and the public were very, very, very welcoming. I mean, this podcast really started because of my situation, which is so unbelievable. Good to talk to people like Courtney.
00:14:12
Speaker 3: They make money. The press, everybody has a job to do, right?
00:14:15
Speaker 1: Right.
00:14:16
Speaker 2: But I'm just, my point, my point is, is that I, it could have gone the other way. It could have been a way where it's like Kelly's a monster, all these things. But it was the opposite where we have this new podcast. We're learning all this information. We're bonding together as a community. How do we help other people so that they are not in a situation like ours? And so I was just very, very, very so happy about it. But it was interesting because some people in the real estate industry were like, oh, this is going to hurt your business. I was like, no, no, no. they love it because I'm locked up. They love it that I'm like very professional with my personal life and my professional life. And it was like, it literally pivoted me in even a bigger direction for work.
00:15:03
Speaker 3: But that's a lot of weight on your shoulders to carry.
00:15:07
Speaker 2: You think?
00:15:07
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, look at those little frail shoulders. Like I have, you know, I just got back from Sedona. I've been healing and Dennis, you can hop in whenever, but that's a lot to carry mentally. Like I think, and what I saw on you, Dennis, it's like the woman tends to be the she fault parent. Right. Um, and that's just how it goes. Like I'm moving, I'm filing for divorce. I'm leaving the husband. Who's a narc, a narcissist. Like, So you're dealing with the public media stuff and you can't carry all of that. At some point you will break. Right.
00:15:43
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Guys have been doing that for decades, hundreds of years without any backlash. Right. So now here's what I say. So you need a support system when you go through your divorce process. And anything associated with a breakup, a prenup, whatever it is, you should have a support system. And if you're in a position where you're a high profile person, you got to have a PR person there getting their arms around this thing because there is nothing easier, in my opinion, or more compelling than female empowerment of all of your success and say, hey, Things guys have been doing for decades. Things guys have been doing for hundreds of years. Now, just like 51%, 52% of women are now asking for prenups. There's no shame. There's no embarrassment. There's nothing to explain. If everything you've worked so hard for, including your family and your kids, you're stepping up and protecting. And you've got control of your situation and you're dealing with it. There's no reason. In my opinion, there's no more compelling story than that.
00:17:00
Speaker 2: I love that you're dispelling the stigma by 52% and saying that women are now making these great decisions. And I love that so much. Just because you get a prenup doesn't mean you're not a beautiful woman. You get a prenup because you're protecting your family legacy.
00:17:17
Speaker 3: Well, I hear you talking about core values and I'm still in the throes of it. And Like for me, like, you know, my husband isn't in the tech world. We don't have a lot of assets, but I am curious. The house is our only asset. So he's going to either, I either have to buy him out to walk it back. You know, Kelly, sorry. You know, I'm going through it, but that's our main asset is the house. I'm on it. And I would like to ask that, you know, either he's going to have to buy me out or I'm going to have to buy him out. I don't want to live there anymore because there's too many ghosts. I've just moved, like I said. Dennis, if you could speak to that for somebody who, you know, might be going through it on a smaller scale.
00:18:00
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think, listen, we handle multi, multi, multimillion dollar asset divorces. And we also handle just general two wage earners. You know, mom's a teacher. Dad works for IBM. Like they have a couple of, you know, pension plans, retirements and a house. We deal with hundreds of those, if not thousands.
00:18:20
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:18:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. As you go through these processes, and I'll share with you another story. I never felt worse about myself than when I applied for my first mortgage. This is many years ago, right? And this is my wife had already been very successful at that point, right? I was a lawyer. I was very successful, but I didn't really have my finances in order. Mortgage broker looks at me. He's like, you got too much debt. You don't make enough money. You're like, give me the house.
00:18:49
Speaker 3: I'm buying a house.
00:18:50
Speaker 1: But listen. That experience allowed me to build on something that got me to where I am. So the reality, the harsh reality of going... Because most people don't do a net worth statement until they go through a divorce process. The harsh reality of looking at that net worth statement and saying, hey, I need to make more money. Hey, and that is a motivating factor. That knowledge... And that experience is power moving forward. You can't look at it like, oh my God, I'm terrible.
00:19:24
Speaker 3: Knowledge is power.
00:19:27
Speaker 1: It is a starting point. It's not an end. So when we talk about the cases where, yes, maybe all there is to divide is a house. But then what I say to you is, why in the hell are we going back and forth with two lawyers to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars to say, so I'll give you a perfect example. I'm your lawyer, Courtney. Courtney, your husband wants to know if he can pick up the children at 4.30. No, no, I can't. I can only do 4.15. Okay, now I charge you for that phone conversation.
00:19:58
Speaker 3: He changed the locks on me the other day and I have the order of protection so I can't get my personal belongings.
00:20:04
Speaker 1: But there's going to be 25 phone calls over every little... 15 minute increments.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: Right. Right.
00:20:15
Speaker 1: So, so what I say to clients is I tell them and I think, you know, and, and, and what pains me in the case is where there isn't a whole lot to really fight over. And yet my client says to me, I don't care, Dennis, this is going to be contentious. It's going to be a knockdown drag out. I'd say, average divorce lawyer per side in New York state is 20 to like.
00:20:36
Speaker 2: $ 50, 000.
00:20:36
Speaker 1: Like, what are you going to, where is that money coming from?
00:20:40
Speaker 3: Dennis, you're going to make me cry.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Yeah. But you know what? You will get through the process. You will be better on the other side. You just have to stay patient and keep your team, your support team close to help you through it. Hmm.
00:20:58
Speaker 2: You know, what was interesting is that, you know, people think that after I called off my wedding, that my life was just going to be like, you know, it's like, oh, Kelly's so rich. Everything's so great. Well, my taxes weren't filed correctly. So after I called off my wedding, there was like crazy amount of taxes that hadn't been allocated for or organized. So not only did I feel like absolute shit, even though I was protecting myself, then I had to, then I was like in a financial situation. So I'm like, let me get this straight. So I do the right thing. And now I'm getting slammed with a big tax bill. Like, how does this math work? Like how, you know, so everybody caught my, my, the reason I'm bringing this up is not because it's a pity party for me, but to tell you that you're not alone and there's there, you're going to have these emotions and you're going to go through these things. And, you know, financial trauma is, you know, it's not, it's your, it's a constant. You're like, how am I supposed to do this? How am I supposed to say that again, please?
00:22:01
Speaker 1: You're not alone.
00:22:03
Speaker 2: You're not, you're.
00:22:04
Speaker 1: Not alone for people who are listening and tuning in. You are not alone. There are hundreds of thousands of people in the same boat that you're in and you will get through it. You will see the other side. Just keep your eye on the horizon. Block out the noise.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: Kelly, you're the talent, Kelly, by the way. I don't do well with paperwork. I was married, hopefully soon, to be ex, who's an attorney who's also intimidated me with the law. I'm surrounded by attorneys. But you talk about how scary it is going through that. But Kelly, you're a talent, and so am I. I've always had people helping me. I modeled for 15 years with paperwork and documents. That alone is scary. I have a stack of paperwork that's filing up right now because I'm going to get spousal maintenance. I'm going to get child support. And I have to fill out this document. So when you talk about your taxes, I mean, talk about Uncle Sam. It's stressful.
00:23:01
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
00:23:03
Speaker 2: Right, but people just think it's like, people think that in our industry, if you do something that's bright, that everything else is just so great. Well, to your point, there's all this back a house that just kind of can be really, really devastating. Okay, I need to ask this question because this is a big, big, big question, Dennis. Pet co-parenting.
00:23:26
Speaker 1: Oh.
00:23:27
Speaker 2: What can a pet clause help with after divorce? Because people are not having children as much, but they are having a lot of pets, raising pets.
00:23:40
Speaker 1: The problem with pet clauses is that the way New York State views it now, it's almost like custody for children. So in the same way, theoretically, that custody for children could be a battle, whether you have terms about it in the prenup or not, because the situation is constantly changing. Not as much with pets as they are with kids. Because kids' circumstances changes, age, school, et cetera. But I think, look, I think if you're doing a prenup, put it in there. Put it in there. Because minimally, even if it's not entirely enforceable, the judge will get the flavor for or the spirit of what the two of you had already contractually previously agreed to. So you can't say when you come into court, well, they never had a relationship with the pet. They didn't want anything to do with the pet. No, it's in the damn prenup. We negotiated for it.
00:24:34
Speaker 3: I just grabbed my cat the other day. It's my cat. I've had him for 10 years. So Kelly.
00:24:39
Speaker 2: I just feel like, you know, children, pets, it's just like another tether for either the fake female or the male, whoever is the one that is, you know, has more animosity because there's always, there's, you know, there's always one. who takes things differently and they use it.
00:24:57
Speaker 1: It's a tool. And I don't mean that in a positive sense. No. It's a tool for them to put this. I have one going on, you know, right now. And I've had tons of them where they use the pet as a lever, as a tool to get at your emotions. They don't give a shit about the pet. They never have. They don't care.
00:25:16
Speaker 2: You wanted to go on a vacation. Well, you have to pick up the cat or dog at 7 a.m. You can't go on the vacation.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Right, right. And the problem for me, is that those cases tend to, many times, not always, they tend to also be the cases where the only asset is a house or you're not multimillionaires, you're making decent living, you're doing really well, successful, but you don't have 50,000 a side, 100,000 a side to fight over the pet. And what pains me about it is I have to say, I get it. But you got to take away the things. You got to take away as many things as you can from the other side that they're using as tool to get at you with. You got to take those things away.
00:26:01
Speaker 3: How do you do that in writing? I mean, I grabbed my cat the other day. I mean, so can we dig a little deeper there? Like, how do you take those tools away? It's in the prenup or what if you don't have a prenup? Because I just grabbed my cat the other day and I've had the cat for 10 years.
00:26:19
Speaker 1: So I think I think if You had it prior to the marriage?
00:26:23
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:26:24
Speaker 1: Okay. So that's not as much of an issue. If it was something you acquired during the marriage, technically, you know, a little bit different.
00:26:33
Speaker 3: Pets mean a lot. They're like kids to some people.
00:26:37
Speaker 2: It is.
00:26:38
Speaker 1: And it's very easy if you say, hey, it's the 40th anniversary Corvette that, you know, that she really loves. And like, I'm just going to like hang and hold it over her head and like try to get at her with it. That's fine. Cause then I just say, let go of the car. Who cares? Whatever it's worth, let him have it. But when it's a pet or it's kids and you can't do it with kids clearly. And now you really can't do it with pets either. I mean, listen, I have three German shepherds and two horses and a bunch of chickens. So we have a little bit of a hobby farm at the house. So, um, so I couldn't imagine not having the pets around.
00:27:17
Speaker 3: Do you have any amazing divorce stories where you've had to tell somebody, like, you got to lose the Corvette? Because that's also interesting to me. Like, how do those conversations go? Like, how do you let somebody down gently? Like, you don't get the chickens. You don't get the Corvette. I mean, I would love to hear a little dialogue on that.
00:27:36
Speaker 1: I really don't do it, to be honest. I really don't let people down gently. I don't because that's not what you pay me for. You pay me for it. And I've used this quote 100 times, I think, on the last show as well. I tell you what you need to hear and not what you want to hear. Right. Because if I tell you what you want to hear, I'm going to say, oh, we're going to do this. So many lawyers do that. Even when the, even in the initial consultation, we're going to get this. We're going to, I remember overhearing consultation we did a little while ago. And the other side says to, or the prospective client says to our lawyer, I just want to make sure we do this and that to stick it to him.
00:28:13
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
00:28:14
Speaker 1: Not what we do. Not what we do. Because here's what happens. If I do that, let's say I'm unscrupulous and I don't care and I just want to make money. Let's just say that's who I am, but I'm not. Then I take money from you. I fight him or her. Then I ask you for more money to fight him or her. Then I ask you for more money to fight him or her. And then at the end of the day, we don't get what you're looking for because it was ridiculous from the start. And the judge saw through You just trying to stick it to the other side. Now I've spent $ 100, 000 of your money litigating for something you didn't accomplish. And guess who they want to stick it to now?
00:28:53
Speaker 2: You, the messenger always gets killed.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: Don't shoot the messenger. And also I think like, cause I'm dealing with an attorney, there's a code of ethics and you have a good, you're a good human being and you're a good man, but I would love to hear. So you, you don't, you, you let them, you just tell them how it is.
00:29:11
Speaker 1: I just don't. Sometimes they go and find another lawyer. That's okay. It's so funny because people ask, well, do you ever represent narcissists? You know, people who are just out to get the other side.
00:29:22
Speaker 3: I said, Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do. I take them as I find them. But my job is to try to translate what you want, what you're seeking to accomplish in a way that's going to be palatable or understandable to the judge. Right. But if you're coming up with something that's ridiculous, I'm. just not going to do that. And I'll say, look, here's what's fair in this case. Here's what we're going to try to accomplish. Because I think with resolutions in divorce cases, the small things are everything. So the little nuances in your custody or your assets make a huge difference over time.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: Dennis, when I was winding down from trying to get the prenup organized, I was with Marilyn Chintz, who was my lawyer. And I'll never forget walking into her office. And I was so nervous. My hands were clammy. And I sat down and I just started bawling my eyes out. I was like, Marilyn, why can I not meet a man who wants to protect me? What is going on? That's what I came in with. Not like I'm such a baller. I'm going to do this. I'm on housewives. I was like, what is wrong with me? And I think a lot of women feel like that as well. They're like, women feel like that. They're like, why don't they love me enough to protect me? And I think that that's a very common thing. And when I told a friend of mine that I was crying, She's like, why would you be crying? I'm like, because I'm just so disappointed in myself, in him. There's a lot of shame and embarrassment. Yes. I was so embarrassed. I mean, Courtney, I was humiliated, even though it was the right thing to do. The good news is that he's not my lobster. I'm going to find my lobster. He's going to come. He's on his way. I know he's on his way because I feel finally after... you know, my ex-husband who is so much older than me cheating on me. And then this guy not wanting to do a prenup. Like I am now, like I feel so good about myself. So I'm not going to cry in a lawyer's office anymore. I am going to embrace my new future.
00:31:36
Speaker 1: Yay!
00:31:39
Speaker 3: I'm going to come with you.
00:31:40
Speaker 2: With my new mystery human, whoever that is.
00:31:44
Speaker 3: You don't need somebody. You got yourself. And I keep telling everybody that, like the freedom and taking your power back is what we're doing here today and helping people. And Dennis and Kelly, thank you. It's scary. You cry. It's the five stages of grief. Right now, I'm obviously in the mad phase today.
00:32:06
Speaker 2: But you got your cat back.
00:32:08
Speaker 3: I got my cat. I got him. Smokey Robertson.
00:32:10
Speaker 1: Smokey Robertson.
00:32:11
Speaker 3: That's great.
00:32:11
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:32:23
Speaker 3: Okay.
00:32:23
Speaker 1: Last and final questions.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: What are the things you see people freak out over when it comes to prenups?
00:32:30
Speaker 1: I think the biggest things they freak out about is figuring out how they're going to discuss initially having a prenup and the fact that the other person needs to be part of the plan. I mean, I think the problem with a lot of the, you know, I hate to sound like it's sexist, but a lot of the guys that I've dealt with that are uber successful and maybe are marrying somebody substantially younger than them. And like, you could, you can just see the control sort of like there. Um, but they're like, you know, the reality is, but wait a sec, but you said that you, they're going to be a stay at home mom and you're going to take care of this. And that, well, I have to give, well, this could be overturned. Like I, I can't say I won't have to pay child support and I won't have to pay maintenance. Like, no, like, you know, and I think, listen, the, one of the biggest problems we have with prenups is that people don't know how to approach that conversation. Um, And they wait until like we had one just the other day. Can you get a prenup done in four weeks? I can, but, you know, when you try to rush a prenup and they don't have a lawyer and you just want me to draft something to hand to them to sign and you're handing it to them like on the altar steps, like those really call into question the reliabilities and the sustainability of that prenup. A prenup done well has a lot of disclosure, which is exchange of information, a lot of transparency, which means see what each person has on each side, And it takes a lot of time to negotiate well with each person having a representative. That's what makes the prenup most reliable. Because if you do that prenup where you hand it to the other person that your lawyer drafted the prenup, they don't know much about it. You hand it to them on the altar steps and they sign it. And then six months later, a year later, five years later, you want to walk in and say, Oh, but I've got a prenup. And they're like, but this person didn't have a lawyer. They didn't have any disclosure. They didn't know anything about it. They felt like they were under duress.
00:34:43
Speaker 3: That's like the Gary Turner, the first golden bachelor got married on TV to Teresa Nist. And they, she was the one that wanted to look it up, wanted a prenup. They got married on ABC show, just saying. Um, and, uh, But it seems like a fight, you know, and like you said, you don't want to sneak that in. You have to. It sounds like it starts at the beginning of the relationship.
00:35:09
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because when you buy a home or you're buying an apartment, you have to show the assets. So it's like, wait a minute, all of a sudden you go to get married and you don't want to show assets. And I think too, and I think we're going to say thank you guys so much. We've gone through so much with the emotional trauma, the financial trauma. Dennis, you have the best advice. Your TikTok is amazing, insightful, and fun. Courtney, you and your family love you. We hope everything goes well. And I'm here for you on and offline.
00:35:43
Speaker 3: I'm here for you. You guys are both shotgun for me.
00:35:49
Speaker 1: Thank you, ladies. This was so much fun. Do it first. I love that, Courtney. Do it first. Get the information first, way before the prenup, so you know who you're marrying. Sorry, I had to squeeze that in.
00:36:01
Speaker 3: No, no, squeeze it all in. I don't want to rush the conversation. I want to, I think that we all have a voice and I think that you and all three of us have something in common, a common thread. It's no accident that we are here today to use our voices and our power to help people that don't know that have to run in the house and grab the cat. And now the locks are changed on me. Like you don't know what you don't know. And I hope that we can prevent other people from feeling as terrible as divorce can feel because it's very scary.
00:36:37
Speaker 1: And if you don't have a support group, you think you have no one. You don't have no one. You're not alone. You're right here, right here. This is your support group.
00:36:46
Speaker 2: There you go. Oh, you're going to make me cry, Dennis.
00:36:50
Speaker 1: Seriously. I'd love that.
00:36:51
Speaker 3: I'm going to go get a cheeseburger and a cold beer on you.
00:36:54
Speaker 1: Yes, please.
00:36:58
Speaker 3: We got to laugh our way through it. You know, I know my sense of humor isn't for everybody. Let's go. I want onions. All right, you guys, I sure hope you enjoyed this episode of I do part two with me and Kelly and Dennis. If you did, please rate, review, subscribe, maybe share it with a friend that this could help. That's what we're here for. Do you have questions about prenups? Maybe you need some advice. We want to help. So send us an email or leave a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes and follow us on social media. That's the digital age we live in. I do part two, an I heart podcast where falling in love is the main objective, but also please fall in love with yourself. Thanks for listening.