Jan. 20, 2026
DOJ Considers Charges Against MN Church Protesters AND Former CNN Anchor
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RSS Feed The assistant attorney general for civil rights says the DOJ will pursue criminal charges against the group of people who stormed a church where they believed its pastor worked for an ICE field office. Ex CNN anchor Don Lemon was with the group and live-streamed before, during and after the protesters stormed the church. Amy and T.J. discuss their thoughts on what took place and whether “committing journalism” as Lemon put it, is a justification for covering the protest.
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00:00:11
Speaker 1: Hey, that folks.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: It is Tuesday, January twentieth, and what is going on in Minnesota. You've probably saw this trending all day yesterday protesters interrupted a Sunday church service. A former CNN anchor is in tow and now the Department of Justice has launched a criminal investigation with that. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. How did we get here? This was a mess of an ugly scene. That was a mess and uncomfortable for a lot of reasons. But I didn't see this one coming.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, the story grew and grew and grew, and now it's exploded with threats and promises of criminal charges against the protesters for going into that church. And don Lemon, that x CNN anchor you were just read. Dieren has been specifically referenced by DOJ officials and his video. His journalism is at the center of it all.
00:01:08
Speaker 2: His journalism. You can't see us, but journalism was in quotations. As we say that, because that's a big part of the question. But let's go to what the core of the matter is.
00:01:18
Speaker 1: Ropes.
00:01:19
Speaker 2: We've seen protests, We've seen dimnistic demonstrations. They have been peaceful in a lot of places we have seen and excuse me, overwhelmingly they have been peaceful, but we have seen confrontations. Even things that get heated don't sometimes rise to the level of violence. This was not violence here, however, Robes, this is a pretty incredible heated escalation of what we've been seeing on the streets. Look, there's a lot of stuff. Folks will tolerate you disrupting for whatever reasons you have. You're gonna bust up a church service, Yeah, this.
00:01:49
Speaker 4: Was Honestly, I hate to say this, but this is the only way I can describe, but this was a new low.
00:01:54
Speaker 3: And look, protesting peacefully is an important part of being an American and having a free society. That is absolutely everyone's right to stand up for injustice in a peaceful way. But to disrupt a church service and to see the video and to see the there was a I hate to say this, but a righteousness about the protesters.
00:02:16
Speaker 4: See what we're doing. We're going up and we're standing up for justice.
00:02:20
Speaker 3: They believed the pastor, who I don't even think was there at the time, was a part of the Ice operations. That was what the insinuation was. So they were going to go in there because they didn't feel like a member of this church, and certainly a leader of this church should be also at the same time be affiliated with ICE, and so they felt justified going in. But you see this situation where you've got half half of the parishioners praying and trying to make it go away. You have the protesters disrupting, you have Don Lemon going to throw a microphone in the pastor's face.
00:02:57
Speaker 4: It was tough to watch.
00:02:58
Speaker 2: We'll get into their justification because everybody has a justification these days, and you might hear it and go, yes, you do what you got to do, including going into a church, but just saying we I don't know where the line is and where we're going to draw one, because we've got people out there justifying killings as well, we have people out there justifying violence. Everybody has a justification for what they're doing, and we don't know where it stopped. But this was in Saint Paul, yes, one of the twin cities there. But the Justice Department is now investigating a protest at this church. It happened on Sunday, in the middle of Sunday church service, and it was disrupted This is called the City's Church in Saint paul Es. I looked on their website. This is a this is a church has been around one hundred plus years there. Now I couldn't get an idea of how large their membership is, but looking at the video, at least this is a medium sized church. At least this service I saw on Sunday looked like the pews were fairly packed with people.
00:03:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, my goodness, after the last few weeks in Minneapolis, people needed a church service. I think that might have even Look, who knows how full their pews are on most Sundays, but certainly we've talked in this country about waning church parishioners. Well, it was nice to see a full church, but unfortunately dis erupted.
00:04:10
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think about that little nugget. I'm always happy to see people in church.
00:04:14
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a.
00:04:15
Speaker 4: Good place to be, and especially during these times, that's an amazing.
00:04:19
Speaker 3: Way to work out what we're all dealing with emotionally.
00:04:23
Speaker 2: So these people were in church on Sunday, like a lot of folks were across the country on Sunday when Boom bust in a group of protesters now by most counts, and by my look on the video I certainly not I wouldn't say fifty, but dozens, thirty to forty possibly that were in this group.
00:04:39
Speaker 1: So they come in. Who are these folks?
00:04:41
Speaker 2: This is a group organized they call themselves the Racial Justice Network. This is a grassroots group run by an attorney and a former law professor who is very much outspoken. Now they go here, like you said, Robes, they think that a pastor, which I have not seen this confirmed. I haven't either, at least Ice had confirmed it. And why would they, But this group believes that a pastor, one of the pastors several are listed on their website. They believe he is in charge of an ICE office there. So this is there justification and why they busted up this Sunday service and romes. We won't even know if he was there, and by all accounts, I have seen nothing that suggested he was actually there at the time. He certainly wasn't preaching.
00:05:22
Speaker 3: He wasn't preaching, and certainly the pastor that we will talk about later that Don Lemon interviewed during while this protest was going on, who by the way, handled himself very respectfully, but yes, he was certainly not the man that they were looking for or who they were looking.
00:05:39
Speaker 4: To call out.
00:05:40
Speaker 2: Yes, so they walk in thirty to forty. We'll just tell you what the scenes. All this stuff was live streamed and now all the video and the group afterwards posted it and edited video and put it up there, very proud of what they did. So they walk into this church service and Robes, this is uncomfortable. I can't imagine being a part of this group. Look, if you're going after one guy, we understand you're upset, but the people are sitting in that church praising the Lord, and folks walked in and you hear ice out and you hear renee good chance. The pastor tries to combat it. He's up on stage essentially saying shame on you. Now he is not as heated as the protesters, so he was really calm. Give him credit for that.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Robe.
00:06:22
Speaker 2: So he is saying shame on you and trying to get it's just a disruptive scene.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: They would not leave.
00:06:28
Speaker 2: This went on for quite a while. Robes and a lot of the demonstrators had phones out in people's faces as they were yelling at those people in the church. It was an ugly scene. No, there was no violence. We should be clear here. I didn't see anything even close to him.
00:06:44
Speaker 3: It was emotional violence. It wasn't physical violence, but it was emotionally abusive. I think that is the best way to put it. And again you can see how justified they felt. They felt like this was what needed to be done. They had to push or take it to the next level to get the attention. They wanted to have their voices heard, and they've certainly gotten a lot of attention that was effective.
00:07:09
Speaker 2: And they clearly, based on the videos and based on things they've said afterwards, they're justifying what they're doing.
00:07:15
Speaker 4: Oh they've doubled down.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Oh go Brokes.
00:07:18
Speaker 2: They are gone like we did nothing wrong based on what ICE is doing to people in the streets. We have the rights, the justification, and maybe even duty to come into this church and disrupt it because we believe one guy at this church is an ICE officer.
00:07:41
Speaker 3: And you've got a quote here who said this, someone who claims to worship God, teaching people in this church about God, is out there overseeing ICE agents.
00:07:53
Speaker 4: Think about what we've experienced.
00:07:54
Speaker 3: How dare you claim to be a pastor of God and you are involved in evil in our community.
00:07:59
Speaker 2: That is from the head of the organization that did rush the place.
00:08:02
Speaker 1: That is the quote she had and rose. You saw the video.
00:08:06
Speaker 2: She's in there on a with a speaker on a microphone out shouting these people in their own church.
00:08:14
Speaker 1: She took it over.
00:08:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was again, it's tough to watch to go into a place of God and use it's so interesting to call out a pastor of God as an evil person or at least committing evil acts and doing wrong and using the church to push an agenda that they believe is evil. But then getting up in a church and calling a pastor evil.
00:08:42
Speaker 4: It's just it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
00:08:46
Speaker 2: Well, this is but this is strictly right. You're a bad person. And the words she used in there, how dare you all? How are you going to come in here and teach about God? How are you going to lead people when you're out there doing this? There's like as an impossible balance. If you are an ice agent, is what she's saying, You're anti Christian. Correct, If you're an ice agent, you're against God. There's no way you can be Christian and believe in God. And also carry out your orders as an ICE agent. That's tough, Robes, that's we got it here.
00:09:20
Speaker 3: You're demonizing an entire group of law enforcement who are following the law, who are performing their duties.
00:09:29
Speaker 4: It is difficult.
00:09:30
Speaker 3: And how you treat people and how you arrest people all, yes, we can get into.
00:09:34
Speaker 4: All of that.
00:09:35
Speaker 3: I mean that does matter. And how you treat people even as you're arresting them matters. I get their point. But you can't just blanket, blanketly cast all ICE agents and anyone truly who works for law enforcement under this administration as evil. It's just it's not true and it's not fair, and that incites more rhetoric, which creates and can lead to violence period.
00:10:03
Speaker 2: And this certainly Robes. This has got more attention because of the Don Lemon involvement. Now Don Lemon, former CNN anchor, who has been what's the right way to put him, a lightning rod, And a lot of this is intentional. He does go after and try to have hot takes. And while he doesn't mind this at all, full disclosure, this is somebody we have known for a long time, Robes in the industry, and this is someone who's been a friend of mine for twenty years now when we first started seeing it. If I got a problem with him and want to criticize Don Lemon, I will call him and I will criticize him. So you're not going to hear that here from us kind of a thing. But we are explaining how he got into this controversy because he does do an online show, Robes, and he was following at least this group. So he says he is reporting from inside the church while this is happening. DJ says he's he's embedded and he's a part of the problem. His response was Robes that no, I was just there covering it. I wasn't a part of it. He has been getting ripped online left and right by everybody for shamelessly putting himself and injecting himself into this. But also Robes saying he's a part of it and that he should also be arrested.
00:11:16
Speaker 3: Yes, and the DOJ is also saying that they specifically called him out yesterday multiple times, saying that he is being looked into and investigated and will potentially face I don't even think it's potentially. They are saying that they are going to pursue criminal charges but you see Don Lemon at the beginning of this was even an edited video that I watched, So again, this isn't he live streamed it, but then felt so good about what happened, or at least what he saw, that he put an edited version of it online for people to look at.
00:11:46
Speaker 4: Again.
00:11:47
Speaker 3: So this is something he's standing by one hundred percent. He's gone on podcasts, he's said this is what needed to happen. But you see him there saying, we're involved in an operation that is secret. I was invited to this operation that is secret, operation pull up. So he was a part of it from before. It wasn't like he was with his crew down the street, saw something happening and went to go cover it. It wasn't as if he was in the church and happened to see this, pulled out his phone and covered it. He was with them as they entered it. He knew what was about to happen, and he So where is the role then? What how would you describe this role? Is he embedded with them? Is he he said he was invited to go with them into this church? So where is the culpability? How much a part of it are you?
00:12:40
Speaker 1: Where is the criminal. That's the question. Role, it's criminal culpability.
00:12:43
Speaker 2: Where is it if he is, if the language is he's clearly embedded, he's not. Okay, no doubt. He knows what's happening, when it's happening, where it's happening, exactly what they're doing, and he knows he wants this coverage and footage. He is not live streaming just to say let's see what will happen.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: We know that.
00:13:03
Speaker 2: So that's one part at least we'll call bullshit on because it's documented every the ride in the car, that video. Why he's talking to the live stream yet we're headed to the church?
00:13:13
Speaker 1: Oops? Was I supposed to say, sirch church? He's he's saying it. We know that. But I don't know, Robes.
00:13:19
Speaker 2: If you're embedded versus covering, if you just walk in and follow the protesters, are you doing something wrong? I don't know the rules on that one.
00:13:27
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:13:28
Speaker 3: I'm curious what you or I would do as a journalist getting a call saying, Hey, we're about to go bust into a church.
00:13:35
Speaker 1: Not walking in that church either? Am I not walking into it?
00:13:37
Speaker 3: And you know, I feel very sure because we didn't live stream. At this point in our careers, we had crews with us. Our camera crews wouldn't have gone in either. They said, absolutely not.
00:13:47
Speaker 1: There are limits.
00:13:49
Speaker 4: So I can say as a journalist, I would not have done that.
00:13:53
Speaker 2: Okay, that's I mean that. We say, you know what, it's weird. We're sitting here right if we just happened up on a scene and some chaos and wow, there's a news event happening inside, and you go, this is wait a minute, y'all are doing what.
00:14:09
Speaker 1: I don't want them to do.
00:14:10
Speaker 3: It created and planned and manipulative, and it feels look to the point where you know that we would even get into something where someone would say something or there'd be some sort of conversation, the cameraman would miss it, like can you do that again, and we would say no, no, if you missed it, missed it. There's no staging, And this was kind of staging.
00:14:30
Speaker 2: It was completely orchestrated. And in in addition, they there's also a video they put out that shows them a staging area and a parking lot like all right, guys, is we're gonna do ready?
00:14:40
Speaker 1: Break up?
00:14:40
Speaker 2: It was almost a little huddle and Don was covering that and say he was clearly aware, so to say I was just there to cover something, Okay, Again, this became a part of the story unfortunately. But Robes, this is a big deal in that there is something like what law could they any of them been dragged in on something called the Face Act that a lot of people are now talking about. It is an act that prohibits the use or threat of force and physical obstruction that injures, intimidates, or interferes with a person exercising the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship. Now it's called the Face Act Robes, but it was aimed at people who were trying to go after possibly abortion clinics, right, but it is also protects those who are trying to worship. They also threw out what is this ku Klux Klan Act that some are talking about now? Another lack act from eighteen seventy something that yes, it protects houses of worship from the Klan. It's literally called that the ku Klux Klan.
00:15:45
Speaker 4: Wow didn't even know that that existed.
00:15:47
Speaker 2: Yes, so those are all the reasons all that, but this was a mess and trending all day yesterday was arrest Don woman, or Don Leman's name, or the Face act or the Ku Klux Klan.
00:15:59
Speaker 1: Everybody was talking about this. But stay here, folks.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Will we hit on a little bit here, Robes, But let's get a little deeper into for just a few minutes. When we come back back, is this o kay? You feel this way? You feel strongly about what Ice is doing. But is it okay to walk into a church on Sunday to protest?
00:16:34
Speaker 1: All right?
00:16:35
Speaker 2: We continue here on Amy and TJ on this Tuesday morning with something I guess Monday morning quarterbacking Robes. We look at what happened there in Minneapolis, and we see a journalist going in as well. But the question there, yeah, there are questions for Don Lemon. Let's get away from that for a second. This is one of and again we have to be careful here, Robes about This isn't necessarcessarily a stands on an issue. This isn't about what Ice is doing, if it's right or wrong, if the protests are right or wrong, if Trump is right or wrong, if Waltz and may or Fry.
00:17:10
Speaker 1: Right or wrong.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Ropes, where are we now if I feel so strongly about something is a place of worship not even off limits.
00:17:22
Speaker 4: I think it should be off limits.
00:17:23
Speaker 3: I think there are places where people should and can expect peace, and a church is one of them.
00:17:30
Speaker 4: If there's any.
00:17:32
Speaker 3: Holy grail of don't disrupt, don't incite, a place of worship is.
00:17:41
Speaker 4: Sacred.
00:17:42
Speaker 3: It embodies peace, It embodies love, it embodies acceptance, it embodies forgiveness and all of these things that we are trying to bring into our lives in a real way. You go to a church to hear those values strengthened to be a better person, to be a better human.
00:18:05
Speaker 4: But forgiveness and.
00:18:08
Speaker 3: Brotherhood are just a part of the walls and the fabric of a church. And so to disrupt that and come in to demand that you think your thoughts and your views are right, and that a pastor who's leading a congregation is wrong, and so you have every right to go into his house, into God's house, and disrupt it to prove your point.
00:18:32
Speaker 4: I just I don't know if it's criminal. I think it's awful.
00:18:37
Speaker 2: It's so uncomfortable robes, and I I'm sure there's some people may be listening now, and I'm sure there's some people out there who say that it justifies, like what we're seeing on the streets justifies them doing whatever is necessary. We have no decorm anymore. It's all everything is on the table. There is nothing off limits. And I'm saying this was a you know, the ICE agents are following orders, and I'm sure ICE agents, some of them.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: I don't think you have to get that aggressive.
00:19:10
Speaker 2: You didn't have to push that hard, you didn't have to spray that and they don't have to protest the space.
00:19:13
Speaker 4: Curse words and all sorts of stuff that's going on.
00:19:16
Speaker 1: Lente of that. But I don't know why this was.
00:19:20
Speaker 2: This one was so disappointing because it was a This wasn't an order given you weren't following instructions, right, This is not a part of your job. You made a conscious decision to go into this house and do this thing. It's not even a matter of being religious. You and I don't go to church every Sunday.
00:19:40
Speaker 1: The ropes.
00:19:41
Speaker 2: There was something about this one that escalated Minneapolis and what we're seeing in Minnesota in a way that scares me just as much as some of the shit we're seeing on the streets.
00:19:49
Speaker 3: So yes, and to what you're saying, the problem is the protesters have have a right to be out there expressing their views, and there is a reason to be angry with what we're seeing on the streets.
00:20:02
Speaker 4: That is understood.
00:20:04
Speaker 3: But you are now becoming part of the problem instead of the solution. And I know there's a fine line between having your voice heard, getting attention, getting the media to focus on what you want them to be reporting, not just you're trying to get attention for your cause. I understand that, and I get it, but now all the coverage makes this is making protesters look terrible. You're doing the opposite of what your intention is. The intention is to get people to focus on the travesty that happened with Renee Good's death. Right, that's what they want people to say, this is horrific, we can't let this happen in our country. But instead now they are the story and what they've done and how awful they've acted, And so now they have completely muddied the waters, and now they look bad, and now they've given the other side so much to work with. So if they have just handed them now a narrative of how terrible and awful and disgusting protesters are, so they have actually completely done the opposite of what they wanted to do. And that is a lesson.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: What is that?
00:21:14
Speaker 2: Waltz and fry vinscript, Please don't give them, don't give them ammunition. Don't give them an excuse to come in here and do the insurrection act. Okay, in the same vein you just said, you've given them now an upside And to the narrative, how can you, like, do most Americans look at somebody crashing a church service and go.
00:21:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's justified. No, I would say most people would not, would.
00:21:39
Speaker 2: Not, no matter what your cause is. And I always think about and I joke about it sometimes. Michelle Obama's line, which convention was it? She said, when they go low, I joke about it. She said, when they go low, we go high.
00:21:50
Speaker 4: Sounds like Martin Luther King Junior.
00:21:52
Speaker 1: Right, when they go low, we go high.
00:21:53
Speaker 2: And I joke around saying, when they go low, kick them right, because when they're down there already kick we don't. You're matching the low. And when you match the low, this is what happens.
00:22:05
Speaker 1: You don't.
00:22:06
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem to me now Robes after this incident, I looking in that church, who's right, Who's wrong.
00:22:12
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:22:13
Speaker 3: Well, most of those parishioners were completely innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with anything.
00:22:20
Speaker 2: But your mama always say you can't don't argue with a fool because from a distance you can't tell who is who. So they're in there trying to point out how bad somebody is, but they're not even there. Who's not there? But they walk in and create a scene that I don't know who's who, who's right, who's wrong? Who has morality on this? I don't know, Robes, this one is. I did not see this one coming. We were waiting for things to calm down on the streets, and now things are getting hot in church and possibly criminal charges for this. And you can argue disrupting Christians, you're trying to disrupt Christians from peaceful assembly. Well, nobody's gonna that's not gonna sit well with general Americans.
00:23:08
Speaker 3: It is not. And the Justice Department said it will pursue charges. I mean, there was no we might, there was no possibly, And they said specifically this is the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights said, Don Lemon himself has come out and said he knew exactly what was going to happen inside that facility. He went into that facility, and then he began and he said that, or they said that just because he was committing journalism is not a shield from being a part of a criminal conspiracy.
00:23:40
Speaker 4: And they're calling this a criminal conspiracy.
00:23:42
Speaker 1: And they're using that line criminal. What'd you say, journalism?
00:23:45
Speaker 4: Committing journalism?
00:23:46
Speaker 1: Because he used that phrase and they went.
00:23:49
Speaker 4: And threw it back in his face and said that.
00:23:51
Speaker 3: And I just there were images even and Don might have even pointed it out in his live stream of people who were finally when this all was over, leaving the church, but like fathers with their arms around their children who were like visibly upset. I mean that that makes an impression, a lasting impression.
00:24:09
Speaker 2: Again, folks, look, finally here we are. And Againeral, this is one of those things where it's difficult to have a conversation because in such about such a heated thing, because folks think it's just black or white. You're either on this side or you're on that side. But it's possible, folks, there is a lot in the middle here, and it's okay to one hundred percent support the protesters and their ideas and what they're protesting, yes, but not be so comfortable with tactics at times that are used. And this is one of those times ropes where it just felt like this, this was just it felt awful.
00:24:50
Speaker 3: And what's interesting is, you know, and look, I get it, people are going to dig in, but even upon reflection, I can see how maybe they thought at the time, ahead of time that this was going to prove their point or be some moment, some aha moment, and then when they see how it all went down and what the reaction was, could they possibly say, wow, maybe that was a bad choice. That's not what we're hearing. We're hearing we did nothing wrong, and you should be putting any anger you're directing at us towards the ice agents who are doing what they're doing on the streets too.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Minneapolis.
00:25:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's always uncomfortable when you point out somebody's behavior and then they say, well, look at what you did last week. That kind of a thing. Everybody's done that in their relationship, right, you get into a fight and yes, well yesterday you told me that is Folks, just wanted to give you this quick update about what's happening in Minneapolis. Yes, a long weekend there. We had a holiday weekend. Hope you had a good win. You can look for a morning run. We'll have that up here shortly and get this Tuesday going. But wherever you are, hope you are having a good win.
00:25:53
Speaker 1: Folks. We will be talking to you real soon on TJ. Holmes on Behalf of the
00:25:57
Speaker 3: Bear, the Spots, the en
Speaker 1: Hey, that folks.
00:00:11
Speaker 2: It is Tuesday, January twentieth, and what is going on in Minnesota. You've probably saw this trending all day yesterday protesters interrupted a Sunday church service. A former CNN anchor is in tow and now the Department of Justice has launched a criminal investigation with that. Welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ Robes. How did we get here? This was a mess of an ugly scene. That was a mess and uncomfortable for a lot of reasons. But I didn't see this one coming.
00:00:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, the story grew and grew and grew, and now it's exploded with threats and promises of criminal charges against the protesters for going into that church. And don Lemon, that x CNN anchor you were just read. Dieren has been specifically referenced by DOJ officials and his video. His journalism is at the center of it all.
00:01:08
Speaker 2: His journalism. You can't see us, but journalism was in quotations. As we say that, because that's a big part of the question. But let's go to what the core of the matter is.
00:01:18
Speaker 1: Ropes.
00:01:19
Speaker 2: We've seen protests, We've seen dimnistic demonstrations. They have been peaceful in a lot of places we have seen and excuse me, overwhelmingly they have been peaceful, but we have seen confrontations. Even things that get heated don't sometimes rise to the level of violence. This was not violence here, however, Robes, this is a pretty incredible heated escalation of what we've been seeing on the streets. Look, there's a lot of stuff. Folks will tolerate you disrupting for whatever reasons you have. You're gonna bust up a church service, Yeah, this.
00:01:49
Speaker 4: Was Honestly, I hate to say this, but this is the only way I can describe, but this was a new low.
00:01:54
Speaker 3: And look, protesting peacefully is an important part of being an American and having a free society. That is absolutely everyone's right to stand up for injustice in a peaceful way. But to disrupt a church service and to see the video and to see the there was a I hate to say this, but a righteousness about the protesters.
00:02:16
Speaker 4: See what we're doing. We're going up and we're standing up for justice.
00:02:20
Speaker 3: They believed the pastor, who I don't even think was there at the time, was a part of the Ice operations. That was what the insinuation was. So they were going to go in there because they didn't feel like a member of this church, and certainly a leader of this church should be also at the same time be affiliated with ICE, and so they felt justified going in. But you see this situation where you've got half half of the parishioners praying and trying to make it go away. You have the protesters disrupting, you have Don Lemon going to throw a microphone in the pastor's face.
00:02:57
Speaker 4: It was tough to watch.
00:02:58
Speaker 2: We'll get into their justification because everybody has a justification these days, and you might hear it and go, yes, you do what you got to do, including going into a church, but just saying we I don't know where the line is and where we're going to draw one, because we've got people out there justifying killings as well, we have people out there justifying violence. Everybody has a justification for what they're doing, and we don't know where it stopped. But this was in Saint Paul, yes, one of the twin cities there. But the Justice Department is now investigating a protest at this church. It happened on Sunday, in the middle of Sunday church service, and it was disrupted This is called the City's Church in Saint paul Es. I looked on their website. This is a this is a church has been around one hundred plus years there. Now I couldn't get an idea of how large their membership is, but looking at the video, at least this is a medium sized church. At least this service I saw on Sunday looked like the pews were fairly packed with people.
00:03:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, my goodness, after the last few weeks in Minneapolis, people needed a church service. I think that might have even Look, who knows how full their pews are on most Sundays, but certainly we've talked in this country about waning church parishioners. Well, it was nice to see a full church, but unfortunately dis erupted.
00:04:10
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't think about that little nugget. I'm always happy to see people in church.
00:04:14
Speaker 1: Yes, that's a.
00:04:15
Speaker 4: Good place to be, and especially during these times, that's an amazing.
00:04:19
Speaker 3: Way to work out what we're all dealing with emotionally.
00:04:23
Speaker 2: So these people were in church on Sunday, like a lot of folks were across the country on Sunday when Boom bust in a group of protesters now by most counts, and by my look on the video I certainly not I wouldn't say fifty, but dozens, thirty to forty possibly that were in this group.
00:04:39
Speaker 1: So they come in. Who are these folks?
00:04:41
Speaker 2: This is a group organized they call themselves the Racial Justice Network. This is a grassroots group run by an attorney and a former law professor who is very much outspoken. Now they go here, like you said, Robes, they think that a pastor, which I have not seen this confirmed. I haven't either, at least Ice had confirmed it. And why would they, But this group believes that a pastor, one of the pastors several are listed on their website. They believe he is in charge of an ICE office there. So this is there justification and why they busted up this Sunday service and romes. We won't even know if he was there, and by all accounts, I have seen nothing that suggested he was actually there at the time. He certainly wasn't preaching.
00:05:22
Speaker 3: He wasn't preaching, and certainly the pastor that we will talk about later that Don Lemon interviewed during while this protest was going on, who by the way, handled himself very respectfully, but yes, he was certainly not the man that they were looking for or who they were looking.
00:05:39
Speaker 4: To call out.
00:05:40
Speaker 2: Yes, so they walk in thirty to forty. We'll just tell you what the scenes. All this stuff was live streamed and now all the video and the group afterwards posted it and edited video and put it up there, very proud of what they did. So they walk into this church service and Robes, this is uncomfortable. I can't imagine being a part of this group. Look, if you're going after one guy, we understand you're upset, but the people are sitting in that church praising the Lord, and folks walked in and you hear ice out and you hear renee good chance. The pastor tries to combat it. He's up on stage essentially saying shame on you. Now he is not as heated as the protesters, so he was really calm. Give him credit for that.
00:06:22
Speaker 1: Robe.
00:06:22
Speaker 2: So he is saying shame on you and trying to get it's just a disruptive scene.
00:06:27
Speaker 1: They would not leave.
00:06:28
Speaker 2: This went on for quite a while. Robes and a lot of the demonstrators had phones out in people's faces as they were yelling at those people in the church. It was an ugly scene. No, there was no violence. We should be clear here. I didn't see anything even close to him.
00:06:44
Speaker 3: It was emotional violence. It wasn't physical violence, but it was emotionally abusive. I think that is the best way to put it. And again you can see how justified they felt. They felt like this was what needed to be done. They had to push or take it to the next level to get the attention. They wanted to have their voices heard, and they've certainly gotten a lot of attention that was effective.
00:07:09
Speaker 2: And they clearly, based on the videos and based on things they've said afterwards, they're justifying what they're doing.
00:07:15
Speaker 4: Oh they've doubled down.
00:07:16
Speaker 1: Oh go Brokes.
00:07:18
Speaker 2: They are gone like we did nothing wrong based on what ICE is doing to people in the streets. We have the rights, the justification, and maybe even duty to come into this church and disrupt it because we believe one guy at this church is an ICE officer.
00:07:41
Speaker 3: And you've got a quote here who said this, someone who claims to worship God, teaching people in this church about God, is out there overseeing ICE agents.
00:07:53
Speaker 4: Think about what we've experienced.
00:07:54
Speaker 3: How dare you claim to be a pastor of God and you are involved in evil in our community.
00:07:59
Speaker 2: That is from the head of the organization that did rush the place.
00:08:02
Speaker 1: That is the quote she had and rose. You saw the video.
00:08:06
Speaker 2: She's in there on a with a speaker on a microphone out shouting these people in their own church.
00:08:14
Speaker 1: She took it over.
00:08:15
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was again, it's tough to watch to go into a place of God and use it's so interesting to call out a pastor of God as an evil person or at least committing evil acts and doing wrong and using the church to push an agenda that they believe is evil. But then getting up in a church and calling a pastor evil.
00:08:42
Speaker 4: It's just it's like the pot calling the kettle black.
00:08:46
Speaker 2: Well, this is but this is strictly right. You're a bad person. And the words she used in there, how dare you all? How are you going to come in here and teach about God? How are you going to lead people when you're out there doing this? There's like as an impossible balance. If you are an ice agent, is what she's saying, You're anti Christian. Correct, If you're an ice agent, you're against God. There's no way you can be Christian and believe in God. And also carry out your orders as an ICE agent. That's tough, Robes, that's we got it here.
00:09:20
Speaker 3: You're demonizing an entire group of law enforcement who are following the law, who are performing their duties.
00:09:29
Speaker 4: It is difficult.
00:09:30
Speaker 3: And how you treat people and how you arrest people all, yes, we can get into.
00:09:34
Speaker 4: All of that.
00:09:35
Speaker 3: I mean that does matter. And how you treat people even as you're arresting them matters. I get their point. But you can't just blanket, blanketly cast all ICE agents and anyone truly who works for law enforcement under this administration as evil. It's just it's not true and it's not fair, and that incites more rhetoric, which creates and can lead to violence period.
00:10:03
Speaker 2: And this certainly Robes. This has got more attention because of the Don Lemon involvement. Now Don Lemon, former CNN anchor, who has been what's the right way to put him, a lightning rod, And a lot of this is intentional. He does go after and try to have hot takes. And while he doesn't mind this at all, full disclosure, this is somebody we have known for a long time, Robes in the industry, and this is someone who's been a friend of mine for twenty years now when we first started seeing it. If I got a problem with him and want to criticize Don Lemon, I will call him and I will criticize him. So you're not going to hear that here from us kind of a thing. But we are explaining how he got into this controversy because he does do an online show, Robes, and he was following at least this group. So he says he is reporting from inside the church while this is happening. DJ says he's he's embedded and he's a part of the problem. His response was Robes that no, I was just there covering it. I wasn't a part of it. He has been getting ripped online left and right by everybody for shamelessly putting himself and injecting himself into this. But also Robes saying he's a part of it and that he should also be arrested.
00:11:16
Speaker 3: Yes, and the DOJ is also saying that they specifically called him out yesterday multiple times, saying that he is being looked into and investigated and will potentially face I don't even think it's potentially. They are saying that they are going to pursue criminal charges but you see Don Lemon at the beginning of this was even an edited video that I watched, So again, this isn't he live streamed it, but then felt so good about what happened, or at least what he saw, that he put an edited version of it online for people to look at.
00:11:46
Speaker 4: Again.
00:11:47
Speaker 3: So this is something he's standing by one hundred percent. He's gone on podcasts, he's said this is what needed to happen. But you see him there saying, we're involved in an operation that is secret. I was invited to this operation that is secret, operation pull up. So he was a part of it from before. It wasn't like he was with his crew down the street, saw something happening and went to go cover it. It wasn't as if he was in the church and happened to see this, pulled out his phone and covered it. He was with them as they entered it. He knew what was about to happen, and he So where is the role then? What how would you describe this role? Is he embedded with them? Is he he said he was invited to go with them into this church? So where is the culpability? How much a part of it are you?
00:12:40
Speaker 1: Where is the criminal. That's the question. Role, it's criminal culpability.
00:12:43
Speaker 2: Where is it if he is, if the language is he's clearly embedded, he's not. Okay, no doubt. He knows what's happening, when it's happening, where it's happening, exactly what they're doing, and he knows he wants this coverage and footage. He is not live streaming just to say let's see what will happen.
00:13:02
Speaker 1: We know that.
00:13:03
Speaker 2: So that's one part at least we'll call bullshit on because it's documented every the ride in the car, that video. Why he's talking to the live stream yet we're headed to the church?
00:13:13
Speaker 1: Oops? Was I supposed to say, sirch church? He's he's saying it. We know that. But I don't know, Robes.
00:13:19
Speaker 2: If you're embedded versus covering, if you just walk in and follow the protesters, are you doing something wrong? I don't know the rules on that one.
00:13:27
Speaker 4: Okay.
00:13:28
Speaker 3: I'm curious what you or I would do as a journalist getting a call saying, Hey, we're about to go bust into a church.
00:13:35
Speaker 1: Not walking in that church either? Am I not walking into it?
00:13:37
Speaker 3: And you know, I feel very sure because we didn't live stream. At this point in our careers, we had crews with us. Our camera crews wouldn't have gone in either. They said, absolutely not.
00:13:47
Speaker 1: There are limits.
00:13:49
Speaker 4: So I can say as a journalist, I would not have done that.
00:13:53
Speaker 2: Okay, that's I mean that. We say, you know what, it's weird. We're sitting here right if we just happened up on a scene and some chaos and wow, there's a news event happening inside, and you go, this is wait a minute, y'all are doing what.
00:14:09
Speaker 1: I don't want them to do.
00:14:10
Speaker 3: It created and planned and manipulative, and it feels look to the point where you know that we would even get into something where someone would say something or there'd be some sort of conversation, the cameraman would miss it, like can you do that again, and we would say no, no, if you missed it, missed it. There's no staging, And this was kind of staging.
00:14:30
Speaker 2: It was completely orchestrated. And in in addition, they there's also a video they put out that shows them a staging area and a parking lot like all right, guys, is we're gonna do ready?
00:14:40
Speaker 1: Break up?
00:14:40
Speaker 2: It was almost a little huddle and Don was covering that and say he was clearly aware, so to say I was just there to cover something, Okay, Again, this became a part of the story unfortunately. But Robes, this is a big deal in that there is something like what law could they any of them been dragged in on something called the Face Act that a lot of people are now talking about. It is an act that prohibits the use or threat of force and physical obstruction that injures, intimidates, or interferes with a person exercising the First Amendment right of religious freedom at a place of religious worship. Now it's called the Face Act Robes, but it was aimed at people who were trying to go after possibly abortion clinics, right, but it is also protects those who are trying to worship. They also threw out what is this ku Klux Klan Act that some are talking about now? Another lack act from eighteen seventy something that yes, it protects houses of worship from the Klan. It's literally called that the ku Klux Klan.
00:15:45
Speaker 4: Wow didn't even know that that existed.
00:15:47
Speaker 2: Yes, so those are all the reasons all that, but this was a mess and trending all day yesterday was arrest Don woman, or Don Leman's name, or the Face act or the Ku Klux Klan.
00:15:59
Speaker 1: Everybody was talking about this. But stay here, folks.
00:16:03
Speaker 2: Will we hit on a little bit here, Robes, But let's get a little deeper into for just a few minutes. When we come back back, is this o kay? You feel this way? You feel strongly about what Ice is doing. But is it okay to walk into a church on Sunday to protest?
00:16:34
Speaker 1: All right?
00:16:35
Speaker 2: We continue here on Amy and TJ on this Tuesday morning with something I guess Monday morning quarterbacking Robes. We look at what happened there in Minneapolis, and we see a journalist going in as well. But the question there, yeah, there are questions for Don Lemon. Let's get away from that for a second. This is one of and again we have to be careful here, Robes about This isn't necessarcessarily a stands on an issue. This isn't about what Ice is doing, if it's right or wrong, if the protests are right or wrong, if Trump is right or wrong, if Waltz and may or Fry.
00:17:10
Speaker 1: Right or wrong.
00:17:11
Speaker 2: Ropes, where are we now if I feel so strongly about something is a place of worship not even off limits.
00:17:22
Speaker 4: I think it should be off limits.
00:17:23
Speaker 3: I think there are places where people should and can expect peace, and a church is one of them.
00:17:30
Speaker 4: If there's any.
00:17:32
Speaker 3: Holy grail of don't disrupt, don't incite, a place of worship is.
00:17:41
Speaker 4: Sacred.
00:17:42
Speaker 3: It embodies peace, It embodies love, it embodies acceptance, it embodies forgiveness and all of these things that we are trying to bring into our lives in a real way. You go to a church to hear those values strengthened to be a better person, to be a better human.
00:18:05
Speaker 4: But forgiveness and.
00:18:08
Speaker 3: Brotherhood are just a part of the walls and the fabric of a church. And so to disrupt that and come in to demand that you think your thoughts and your views are right, and that a pastor who's leading a congregation is wrong, and so you have every right to go into his house, into God's house, and disrupt it to prove your point.
00:18:32
Speaker 4: I just I don't know if it's criminal. I think it's awful.
00:18:37
Speaker 2: It's so uncomfortable robes, and I I'm sure there's some people may be listening now, and I'm sure there's some people out there who say that it justifies, like what we're seeing on the streets justifies them doing whatever is necessary. We have no decorm anymore. It's all everything is on the table. There is nothing off limits. And I'm saying this was a you know, the ICE agents are following orders, and I'm sure ICE agents, some of them.
00:19:08
Speaker 1: I don't think you have to get that aggressive.
00:19:10
Speaker 2: You didn't have to push that hard, you didn't have to spray that and they don't have to protest the space.
00:19:13
Speaker 4: Curse words and all sorts of stuff that's going on.
00:19:16
Speaker 1: Lente of that. But I don't know why this was.
00:19:20
Speaker 2: This one was so disappointing because it was a This wasn't an order given you weren't following instructions, right, This is not a part of your job. You made a conscious decision to go into this house and do this thing. It's not even a matter of being religious. You and I don't go to church every Sunday.
00:19:40
Speaker 1: The ropes.
00:19:41
Speaker 2: There was something about this one that escalated Minneapolis and what we're seeing in Minnesota in a way that scares me just as much as some of the shit we're seeing on the streets.
00:19:49
Speaker 3: So yes, and to what you're saying, the problem is the protesters have have a right to be out there expressing their views, and there is a reason to be angry with what we're seeing on the streets.
00:20:02
Speaker 4: That is understood.
00:20:04
Speaker 3: But you are now becoming part of the problem instead of the solution. And I know there's a fine line between having your voice heard, getting attention, getting the media to focus on what you want them to be reporting, not just you're trying to get attention for your cause. I understand that, and I get it, but now all the coverage makes this is making protesters look terrible. You're doing the opposite of what your intention is. The intention is to get people to focus on the travesty that happened with Renee Good's death. Right, that's what they want people to say, this is horrific, we can't let this happen in our country. But instead now they are the story and what they've done and how awful they've acted, And so now they have completely muddied the waters, and now they look bad, and now they've given the other side so much to work with. So if they have just handed them now a narrative of how terrible and awful and disgusting protesters are, so they have actually completely done the opposite of what they wanted to do. And that is a lesson.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: What is that?
00:21:14
Speaker 2: Waltz and fry vinscript, Please don't give them, don't give them ammunition. Don't give them an excuse to come in here and do the insurrection act. Okay, in the same vein you just said, you've given them now an upside And to the narrative, how can you, like, do most Americans look at somebody crashing a church service and go.
00:21:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's justified. No, I would say most people would not, would.
00:21:39
Speaker 2: Not, no matter what your cause is. And I always think about and I joke about it sometimes. Michelle Obama's line, which convention was it? She said, when they go low, I joke about it. She said, when they go low, we go high.
00:21:50
Speaker 4: Sounds like Martin Luther King Junior.
00:21:52
Speaker 1: Right, when they go low, we go high.
00:21:53
Speaker 2: And I joke around saying, when they go low, kick them right, because when they're down there already kick we don't. You're matching the low. And when you match the low, this is what happens.
00:22:05
Speaker 1: You don't.
00:22:06
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem to me now Robes after this incident, I looking in that church, who's right, Who's wrong.
00:22:12
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:22:13
Speaker 3: Well, most of those parishioners were completely innocent bystanders who had nothing to do with anything.
00:22:20
Speaker 2: But your mama always say you can't don't argue with a fool because from a distance you can't tell who is who. So they're in there trying to point out how bad somebody is, but they're not even there. Who's not there? But they walk in and create a scene that I don't know who's who, who's right, who's wrong? Who has morality on this? I don't know, Robes, this one is. I did not see this one coming. We were waiting for things to calm down on the streets, and now things are getting hot in church and possibly criminal charges for this. And you can argue disrupting Christians, you're trying to disrupt Christians from peaceful assembly. Well, nobody's gonna that's not gonna sit well with general Americans.
00:23:08
Speaker 3: It is not. And the Justice Department said it will pursue charges. I mean, there was no we might, there was no possibly, And they said specifically this is the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights said, Don Lemon himself has come out and said he knew exactly what was going to happen inside that facility. He went into that facility, and then he began and he said that, or they said that just because he was committing journalism is not a shield from being a part of a criminal conspiracy.
00:23:40
Speaker 4: And they're calling this a criminal conspiracy.
00:23:42
Speaker 1: And they're using that line criminal. What'd you say, journalism?
00:23:45
Speaker 4: Committing journalism?
00:23:46
Speaker 1: Because he used that phrase and they went.
00:23:49
Speaker 4: And threw it back in his face and said that.
00:23:51
Speaker 3: And I just there were images even and Don might have even pointed it out in his live stream of people who were finally when this all was over, leaving the church, but like fathers with their arms around their children who were like visibly upset. I mean that that makes an impression, a lasting impression.
00:24:09
Speaker 2: Again, folks, look, finally here we are. And Againeral, this is one of those things where it's difficult to have a conversation because in such about such a heated thing, because folks think it's just black or white. You're either on this side or you're on that side. But it's possible, folks, there is a lot in the middle here, and it's okay to one hundred percent support the protesters and their ideas and what they're protesting, yes, but not be so comfortable with tactics at times that are used. And this is one of those times ropes where it just felt like this, this was just it felt awful.
00:24:50
Speaker 3: And what's interesting is, you know, and look, I get it, people are going to dig in, but even upon reflection, I can see how maybe they thought at the time, ahead of time that this was going to prove their point or be some moment, some aha moment, and then when they see how it all went down and what the reaction was, could they possibly say, wow, maybe that was a bad choice. That's not what we're hearing. We're hearing we did nothing wrong, and you should be putting any anger you're directing at us towards the ice agents who are doing what they're doing on the streets too.
00:25:22
Speaker 1: Minneapolis.
00:25:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's always uncomfortable when you point out somebody's behavior and then they say, well, look at what you did last week. That kind of a thing. Everybody's done that in their relationship, right, you get into a fight and yes, well yesterday you told me that is Folks, just wanted to give you this quick update about what's happening in Minneapolis. Yes, a long weekend there. We had a holiday weekend. Hope you had a good win. You can look for a morning run. We'll have that up here shortly and get this Tuesday going. But wherever you are, hope you are having a good win.
00:25:53
Speaker 1: Folks. We will be talking to you real soon on TJ. Holmes on Behalf of the
00:25:57
Speaker 3: Bear, the Spots, the en