July 2, 2026
A Club You Don't Want To Be In with Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio
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RSS Feed Bachelor Nation favorites Joan Vassos, Kathy Swarts, and Michael Allio are all members of the club no one wants to be in - they’ve all lost a spouse.
The three discuss processing grief, balancing parenthood with loss, and finding love in chapter two.
Plus, we hear about Michael’s new children’s book, Where The Wild Heart Grows, and its powerful message!
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00:00:17
Speaker 1: Hey, I do Part two. It's your celebrity mentors me, Joan Vassos and Kathy Schwartz, And today we get to connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the same club as us that no one wants to be a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club for people who have lost a spouse.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joan and I we've both lost spouses. But it feels a little different because our children were a little bit older. But you know, it's still is club no one wants to belong to. And today we are going to chat with someone who is in that same group with us. We all met Michael on Katie Thurston season of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He has a new children's book out that we also can't wait to talk with him about.
00:01:14
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod.
00:01:17
Speaker 4: Hi Michael, Hi, thanks for having me on. Guys. You look great and I'm so happy to be on here and be able to chat with you guys about all things and this dreadful club that we're all Yeah.
00:01:30
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me, since we are all members of this club, tell us about your late wife Laura and what she was like.
00:01:44
Speaker 4: I appreciate that question too. I met Laura when I was eighteen. I was a freshman in college. She was a senior in high school on a college visit, and I saw her from across the quad walking around campus and I told her, no joke. I said, if you come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while.
00:02:07
Speaker 3: Bumps.
00:02:07
Speaker 2: I love that.
00:02:08
Speaker 4: And this is without Facebook, this is without I didn't have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in the cafeteria the following fall and lived up to my promise. So we were together for sixteen years. We had all life smilestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together, and had a kid, James, And when we welcomed him into the world, we had about seven seven months a bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually stopped taking milk from one side at Laura's breast, and that's how we found it. And so it went from all of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down, as it often does with any diagnosis sets out there, and it was a wild ride. She passed away in two thousand and nineteen, when James was two and since then been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous, gorgeous girlfriend Jade, who's just been such a blessing in our life. But life is crazy, and as you both know very well, you can have as many plans as you want. Life doesn't necessarily care and sometimes we're left to pick up the pieces and find our way back.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question about being a father of a young child. I know my kids were grown, my last, my youngest, my fourth was in college when John passed away, so I know that, you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours. I'd like to hear about, like the way you processed your gree if you have a young child, did you have time to process your group grief for has that been like really delayed and coming in to focus now, you know, maybe a little later in life.
00:03:59
Speaker 4: I think that it's a great question, and I think grief often gets this broad brushstroke. You know, we all lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different, and none is better, less painful than the other. They're all different and we can see benefits and we can learn lessons throughout the whole thing, But it doesn't take away the challenge and the pain of trying to find your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned. And you know, with with James and with my own dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it. I really just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver, I mean that teaches you first and foremost that you have to be the rock. You have to be able to serve like you have. You can't put your fears on somebody else, even though they are so present. You have to get them to the next scam or the next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I felt like for me, the same thing was true about grief. I really had to run into just being a single dad. I mean, our goal was to have a child together, to raise James together, and when after she passed, I was really nervous because I was like, do I have the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is grief going to define me? And also my son? And I always have this fear of I think every parent does, where the actions that you have as a parent they make such an impact on a child that it's like, is this going to affect so many generations, and so it has to be handled with so much care, is so much pressure, and so you know, I always tried to walk that balance with my son on grief and allowing him to be a kid, while still allowing that space for us to be able to talk about his mom, even though he was so young when she passed.
00:06:10
Speaker 2: Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware my husband died by suicide also in twenty nineteen.
00:06:18
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry to hear that key.
00:06:19
Speaker 3: Thank you.
00:06:20
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, But I wanted to just get back to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both lost your spouse's to illnesses where there were doctor's appointments, you had time to prepare, if that's even a thing. Yeah, and so I've often people ask me about my grief journey.
00:06:42
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:06:43
Speaker 2: As you said, Michael, grief is grief, and we all experienced it differently, and you have to walk through grief to get to the other side. You know, you can't run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm very curious how grief. I still have moments when I have just the grief washes over me, And I just wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you lose your spouse.
00:07:15
Speaker 4: Do you want to take that at Joan or you want me to?
00:07:18
Speaker 1: I know you and I have talked about this, which is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe we were going to do maybe a little something together to talk about things just like this, because people don't get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit, because you've experienced like intense grief. But I'll tell you I was in denial, to be perfectly honest, which was so naive of me. But I kept thinking John was such a healthy man. And you probably thought the same thing about Laura, like how could she not be here, you know, for the rest of our kids' lives. And so John went from weighing like two hundred pounds two hundred and ten pounds, and I still in my mind thought he was going to live. And it was so like I was in such denial that when he passed away, I think I was in chalk for like a year. I just was surviving. I just one foot in front of the other. How about you, Michael. I wonder how you did it. I know you couldn't just put one foot in front of the other. You had to raise a kid, right, Yeah.
00:08:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I I we rang the bell twice, you know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan, that as caregivers we never give up hope. But there was a there was a time when, I mean I knew enough about the cancer and everything where it had spread to a different part in your body, and I knew, and I could see it in the doctor's eyes that it was that it was uphill. And so I even though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained hope to the last day, kind of searching, searching for a miracle.
00:09:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:09:02
Speaker 2: And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I have talked about this. I was in denial after my husband died. I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and I was going to wake up and he was going to be there. And my children were obviously much older than your son, James, Michael, but and yours world er.
00:09:24
Speaker 3: Too, Joan. But you still have those family.
00:09:29
Speaker 2: Issues and the grief that just permeates transcends everything, regardless of the age of your children.
00:09:37
Speaker 3: So it's just interesting.
00:09:39
Speaker 4: If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah, two things are true at the same time, and all things are true at the exact same time. I mean, I used to think that grief was about hurting less and over time I've learned and that it is really about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand. And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift, and it's grief is a gift because I loved everything that Laura gave me, the memories, James, I mean sixteen years. We built a life together in many ways, the things, the habits that I have or habits that we developed together, and it was it was one of those things where after she passed away, I was I was just really really lost on who I was, what my identity was. Am I capable of this all of the all of the things that maybe I took for granted that she did.
00:10:51
Speaker 1: I just love that you like you talk about the habits that you formed because you were together for so long, and Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have. I was together with John for two years, and I didn't know how not to be a couple. All of a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself, and I hadn't been that way for so long, and I didn't know how to do it. I'm still not sure. I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I have chalk, obviously, but like he's not the father of my kids. And we don't have like a lot of couple friends together because we don't live near each other. And I have a couple of friends that I developed from my kids were really really little, and we raised our children together. And then all of a sudden, I was like, suddenly not part of this group. Because couples like to exist with other couples exist with singles, and you become this island.
00:11:37
Speaker 4: And you're out.
00:11:48
Speaker 2: My experience was I also met my husband. I was had just turned to eighteen when I met him. I met him the first day of college and I looked across the room and I told my I love that. I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I did and we were together, almost married almost forty six years. So for me, for me, this journey of rediscovering who I am. I had to learn from the get go because I was married when I was twenty years old.
00:12:20
Speaker 4: I mean, it's ridiculous, and it's you know, regardless of what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up growing into one. Yes, yeah, I think that's actually a very healthy thing where it's too You maintain your individuality, of course throughout the course of a marriage, but you can't help but morph into each other. And I've had so many conversations with widowers and widows about this, and everybody's situation is so different, so some people would say, man, yours is the worst. Michael James was so young, But here I didn't have to have the same of conversations that you did Kathy like or you did Joan because your kids were older and and very he passed away. My my biggest thing always was like, how can I make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this? How how can I learn tools that I wasn't born with? But I need to adopt immediately so that this doesn't create a psychopath that blamed, that blames tragedy for everything that happens in his life. He'll he'll be ten in in September.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: So he was how old when when Laura passed too?
00:13:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that there's like a big it's a weird scale because you think, Okay, James isn't missing his mother like the person that he probably does hard remembers, correct, But then you have the job of reminding him and keeping her memory alive, because there is going to be a day maybe when he's fifteen or sixteen, or seventeen or eighteen or some time in the near future, that he's going to want to know about his mom. And it sounds like really good.
00:14:16
Speaker 4: It's this balance between very much keeping her alive and not making him feel pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah, I've seen I've seen a lot of people make mistakes about kind of they're they're so anxious about making sure that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids that young, they're not going to remember. None of us remember anything when we were two and so and so one of the reason ways I kind of bring that up is is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah, you know, I'll let him know that he is very much a part of her. He'll laugh he does. He's incredibly books, which she was and I wasn't. And so I'll say, you know, that reminds me just that your mom and then that that facilitates a conversation not you know, do you remember, Yeah, all of this because you know, I don't want the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that he may he or she may have forgotten.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the and that grief is different, you know, the missing somebody intensely, that grief, Like I wake up in the middle of night still feeling that. I think I feel that, you know, thank god he doesn't feel that. And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older, but they John so now. So they're now thirty six, thirty five, thirty two and turning thirty on tomorrow, actually the day after tomorrow, so you know, so John's been gone for six years, press so you know, Luke was just get out of college, and like they have all these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely. So that's like a little bit of a different kind of grief. Like You're son is going to realize. I'm sure he already does that. All of his friends have a mom and he doesn't. My kids all like see their all their friends have a dad, and you know they need their mentoring and they don't have a dad to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and two girls, and the boys really feel.
00:16:17
Speaker 4: It, you know, hats hats off to our club, right like I. You know, I am. I have to apply and I think I'm going to speak for you guys and too, because I can feel it. We have to apply some sort of purpose to it, and we have to extract lessons from what life has given us or else it's all in vain and it's not toxic positivity. It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing so close with death. Like I think, if prior to death and it being a part of our life and being on the oncology floor and all of that for two years talking with people living it, breathing it, I think if you would ask me what do I want in my life in order to be happy? I would have had a hard time with that. But if you were to ask me what do I don't want to what don't I want to regret in my life? I can answer that now, because when you talk to people at the end of their life, when you walk the floor, when you speak with people of age, they will tell you all the things that they regret, and it's the blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so yes, I am burdened. I carry grief. I carry that pain every single day, and the second I think I made sense of it, I wake up in the morning and it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift of grief, and it provides for us. We don't create our own problems as much anymore because we know what real problems are and it allows us to just, I don't know, a structure a life that we can be proud of.
00:18:14
Speaker 1: Sounds like that you channeled your grief into writing this book and it's going to help other people. So you've found a purpose at least, you know, in the time being. I would love to hear more about your book, Where the Wild Heart Grows. What made you write a book just like this?
00:18:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things. It's about growing up, it's about growing old. It uses nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life. And there's seven an interconnected story is it's very old world. I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter, and so we did thirty five illustrations the old school way to try to slow down time, to try to teach kids without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life, the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for new growth, and that there's so much by just observing nature that we can learn about our own life and all that growth that happens, and all that's uncomfortable.
00:19:53
Speaker 2: I have to say. I read the advanced copy. The illustrations are incredib I think you have a call Decott.
00:20:03
Speaker 3: Winner on your hands here. Thank you, but I cannot believe.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: And I want about fifteen copies because we'll get back to the second art, sort of dealing with grandchildren on all this grief and loss that we're talking about.
00:20:19
Speaker 3: But in your.
00:20:20
Speaker 2: Book you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder the struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I love one of the lunch you had, wild, the wild beauty of everyday moments, And that is exactly what that book, to me represents, slowing down and seeing the beauty in everyday moments.
00:20:46
Speaker 4: Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book. These are seven stories that James hands selected. I actually wrote thirty five of them all in the sure so he han't selected some of some of them. He's like, yeah, that's not that's not making the cut, and I'm like, oh, everyone's a chrismal, right, there really is. But I really really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this book for? And I always have a tough time putting it in parameters because I have this idea and I'm just deep help belief that the basic things that we learned as kids we have forgotten as adults. And when when you were talking with a child, when you're talking with anybody, if you begin to lecture to them, they begin to put up their walls, their ego starts coming up, they start defending, and that's not me or they pull away. And for me, I noticed that with James early on. It was the whole how is your day? It was good? What you do? Nothing? Nothing, you're feeling I'm fine, And I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through, whether or not you're growing up or growing old. And it is the courage to begin again. There's a story about us. There's a story about a spider.
00:22:21
Speaker 1: Whose web keep I'm sitting here right there. I took a picture of that quote, honestly because it resonated so much. I have it right here. I'd love to read it so the audience knows what we're talking about, because I think it talks about us, It talks about your son, It talks about so many people, probably not just us. And it says, maybe strength isn't in the web, Maybe it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again. And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again, whether it's you know, starting in a life without a spouse. Hopefully you know not many people have to experience that, but even in like losing a job or losing your home, there's you know, we're all going to experience some place where you have to find stre to begin again.
00:23:01
Speaker 4: I love that Joan, and it's spot on because even in that story, someone asked, the spider's so upset that its web keeps falling down, and then it's asked, you know, tell me about the first web you ever made, and the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together, it didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess. And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah, And that's really the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be, and we are forced to have the courage to begin again and start.
00:23:43
Speaker 2: Leaving while we're sitting here giving our quotes. I think your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as it is for children. What matters is not clinging to what was, but trusting what will be. I read that, I thought, I have never met you before today, and I thought, thank you that just reading that quote gives me hope. It's what will be, you know, one foot in the past, never forgetting, and moving forward and looking towards the future.
00:24:13
Speaker 3: So thank you for that quote as well.
00:24:15
Speaker 4: Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's it's lessons we can all pull from at any point in our life, no matter what we're going through.
00:24:31
Speaker 2: Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do you think, because you wrote this book sort of to help you talk to James about these things, or that was one of the reasons, how do you think this will help children to comprehend grief and loss?
00:24:48
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I again, I think it's grief, it's loss, it's growing, it's it's it's courage, it's it's friendship, it's kindness, it's all of those things. When kids are going through the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed and they feel lost, to recognize that in that stillness, that in that area where we feel like we're not developing, that our roots are growing, that growth is happening even when we can't feel it. And I always have this idea of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of the nursing home when I'm you know, ninety years old or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home. See my grandma and I look in these rooms and they are people with real stories, you know, people with lives well lived. And the one thing you notice is that they jump out of their seat as fast as they can when they see a young child, and you start to look at them and their phones not ringing, and it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact if I were to go talk to any of those people that are sitting in their room, that they would transport to the hardest time in their life, the time in our life that we are so excited to try to get out of. Yeah, And it's like, this is life. The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for something down the road to fulfill you, you're gonna miss it.
00:26:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker 4: And so it's it's this really this call to be present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it, because, believe it or not, the worst time in your life, one day, you're gonna miss it. You're going to miss the lessons it taught you.
00:26:47
Speaker 1: I love that. I like living in the present is so hard, but I think we all learned a lesson because our future was kind of taken away from us, and that was like the biggest thing for me if there was this black hole ahead of me now and I didn't have a future, And to learn how to live in a present so I don't miss that so much has been such a gift. And so when you talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably the biggest one that I took from this. Like living in the moment a lot more.
00:27:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, and allowing yourself to mess up, allowing your allowing yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves to others in any form or fashion, and to give yourself permission to just be yourself. I fear for our kids living in the digital age with social media, that what makes them special is uted and it's going to get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And there's a story in this book about the dancing Dandelion and people. People can read all about it, but it's about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching, because you have something to offer this world, even though people may judge you, laugh at you. The worst thing any of us could ever do is to silence our gift just because we're trying to fit.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: In we kind of touched on this a little bit about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we've all feel that sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks. But now that you are kind of seven years out, I'm sure your grief is very different than it was when it first occurred. What things are you processing now? And I'd love to hear these things from you because I feel like when you say them, it kind of solidifies them, like this ideas that are my head. You're so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to hear what you're processing seven years later.
00:29:02
Speaker 4: Gratitude.
00:29:06
Speaker 2: I am seven years out. That was when you asked that question, John, I knew you asked it to Michael. I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life, every sunrise, every's continue on, Michael.
00:29:19
Speaker 4: But please please keep talking. I want to I want to hear what you have to say.
00:29:24
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's just that I when we talk about walking through grief, and I think the biggest thing that my husband's death taught me was many of the things you've said, Michael. But enjoying every moment being it is it be, you know, being kind, being present, all the things that you've been talking about, really taking time to look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoying my great.
00:29:52
Speaker 3: The little things that were so busy.
00:29:55
Speaker 2: And scheduled that when my husband died and it was so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were left unseat, so many things that were left undone. So uh, seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I have three children, and I really try to soak up every minute of my life their life.
00:30:22
Speaker 4: And you you know, we won't regret that. And I think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying, is is also just relief that I'm here because there was a time when I grief was so heavy. I didn't know who I was going to become after this. I didn't know how it was going to change me. I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going to make me hard and hate the world for what it did and questioning God and do all of those things. And instead it has allowed me to really appreciate the things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see I'm so happy to see James running the front door from the school bus, completely bypass me and run into Jade's arms.
00:31:18
Speaker 1: Oh I love that.
00:31:20
Speaker 3: Can we talk a little bit about Jade?
00:31:22
Speaker 4: So absolutely?
00:31:25
Speaker 3: So I know that she's moved in with you.
00:31:28
Speaker 2: I'm curious how you met, how that whole evolution has taken place, that she is now integrated into your life. And as you say, you can still hold Laura and that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving more than one person at once.
00:31:45
Speaker 4: But I'm oh, absolutely, And I think if any listeners are are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time. But I think a lot of people will tell you it exists, and just give it. Give it time you're ready, don't rush into anything. But after I got off the Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV. She reached out and we never had like a romantic relationship. It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for me what I've been through. And we found just through that a long mutual friendship, long distance. And she was in Hollywood, in West Hollywood doing her own thing, and there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah, could there be something here? But look, you're across the across the country. I'm in akron Olisle and I'm not laving so over time. This was about about two years ago. We met up in LA when I was out there, and I saw her again and it was almost like the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad. It was it was and I was so so happy that I felt that again. Yes, And if you would have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago, I would have said, I that feeling's gone. It's gonna have to feel so different now. But that's the only feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to each other and developed that relationship and then, yeah, it took the plunge two years or she's been here for two years. And integrating a family is a challenging thing. I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, Why won't you marry this woman already?
00:33:53
Speaker 3: You know?
00:33:54
Speaker 4: And it's all these things, And the truth is is, you know, I'm probably going to I'm going to do.
00:34:02
Speaker 3: You want more children?
00:34:03
Speaker 4: So we've talked about that. Originally I wanted three, and now I'm forty two.
00:34:11
Speaker 2: And I'm exhausted, like I mean, trust me, Michael, it gets worse.
00:34:18
Speaker 4: Oh oh oh, I know, I know, But the last decade has been a tough one on this guy in every which way. Just being mom, being dad, managing careers, doing all of this, making sure you're present is exhausting. And he is. He's so enough and so like right now, it's a season of first because I've never been able to raise James alongside somebody, so I don't have the blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new every day. I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's great to have somebody who we can capture memories together with and we can share all of those life moments with and after he goes to bed, we can talk in bed about where what we did right, what we did wrong, you know, all of those things that just I don't know, just make it all worth it.
00:35:18
Speaker 1: I love. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when you first introduced this concept to James about you dating someone, and I'm sure you would have never done unless you had known this was like maybe your person, and so probably didn't have it until you met Jade. I would love to know what you said to James, How did you introduce this concept?
00:35:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I've it's always I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie. It's always been a tricky thing because James and I have developed i mean, were one. He's known, you know, me and him in this house and that's it.
00:35:56
Speaker 3: And so.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: Eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge, and it's going to be uncomfortable, and what we're all going to find out is that it's not as hard as we think it is. And I think that that message is so true for starting again after loss, about imagining what's it going to be like going on that first date, What's it going to be like driving to someone that's not my husband, What's it going to be like when those inside jokes that we shared and those memories that we always talked about at dinner are no longer remembered by the person I'm now dating. They smell different, they look different, they're all these things and you just have to have to begin knowing that it's a process, and as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding, taking time, knowing that there's love kind of bring it back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and people will just I think avoiding the conversations is the worst thing. I think. I think kids can handle a lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more resilient and more understanding and have less biased than adults have developed over the years. So that's been my experience. But I if that comes across like I am an expert, I am far from that. It is it is. It has been a journey.
00:37:27
Speaker 1: Let me tell you you've done it well.
00:37:40
Speaker 3: So Joan.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son to another woman.
00:37:49
Speaker 3: Joan.
00:37:50
Speaker 2: You and I both have grandchildren, and in both of our cases are our husbands never got to spend meet or spend time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael. I you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born.
00:38:11
Speaker 4: Joan, congrats, thank you.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: It's such a blessing. But you're right, Kathy. You know, I think about when I asked you the question of like, what are you processing now? Seven years later, my thought was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do but really, my first thing that came to my mind is life isn't fair, and that's how these big moments. So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John would have loved that sunset. He love sunsets, and I'll see the beautiful sunset and all it makes me sad. Even though I'm happy I'm seeing this beautiful sunset, I feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that he doesn't get.
00:38:50
Speaker 3: To share it.
00:38:51
Speaker 1: And it's even you know, even more magnified with things like big, like big life events. So when my John actually did see one of our grandchildren get born and he got to walk one of our two daughters down the aisle, so he did experience those big moments. But you know, life keeps moving on, and that's what makes me the sadest.
00:39:13
Speaker 4: I think I picked up a little bit when you're going, Kathy, which was experiencing first yeah and having having say chalk and you be able to experience all these first with with grandkids. And I know for a fact, and I'll I'll just say this is one of the hardest things in the world, which I never would have predicted, was sharing James with somebody else and That's the weirdest thing because the entire time while I'm grieving, I am like, God, can I just find somebody to share him with. When it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a violation or al or something like that. And then again and over time it starts to feel less like that and more normal and all of that.
00:40:06
Speaker 3: So I get that, and so for me it's a flip side.
00:40:11
Speaker 2: I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather. I'm so sorry that. You know, my husband, I have one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down the aisle for her wedding. These adorable granddaughters that I have, he saw one for.
00:40:32
Speaker 3: A few months.
00:40:33
Speaker 2: But those things, I feel compelled to be the grandmother, the grandfather, to give my grandchildren the memories that you are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort of the next generation of that makes sense.
00:40:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, And playing those dual roles is tricky, and you know, there's a lot of responsibility and weight that we put on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here, and really all we have to do is just be just be ourselves, because that's that's so enough. I mean life, life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is dark, life is all those things. But if you are able to just understand that the dark seasons in your life are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass. There's light at the end of that tunnel. It could be grandkids, it could be finding new love, it could you know, just who knows. Like, let's let's stop trying to plan everything.
00:41:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, as your story says, the acorns fall to the ground, but in the spring, new leaves come out.
00:41:44
Speaker 4: I just they always they always do. There's the whole idea like behind the book too, was I was looking outside of my window in my bedroom and I was looking at this tree. And this tree has been in my backyard forever and it was during the first year that Lore passed, and I felt like I have one of those moments where I watched this tree through all four seasons and you know, it's growing new leaves, it's turning you know, amber and an orange, leaves are falling and all that, and I was just wondering, does the tree worn? Is the tree grieving? You know, does does the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around. Does the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals, or nourishment or shade. But it's like no, Like trees are wise. They understand that they have to let go in order to allow for new growth, and they it's just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of the moment, we've all been through these cycles before, they just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are you going to do with your life? Who are you? What are you going to become? Where are you going to live? How much money are you gonna make? What is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am, and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's nothing but questions ahead. And it's like we've gone through those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life, and that's that's like all lie this are these seasons of turning the page and allowing things to let go.
00:43:30
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary of John's death. He died on January eighteenth, and I went to the cemetery and I happen to be alone that day. My kids had gone the day before, and I went by myself, and I thought, for the first time, I felt like he wasn't part of our life, that life had moved on enough that like the light that we are creating now would have been foreign to him.
00:43:58
Speaker 3: All.
00:43:58
Speaker 1: You know, three of the four kids are married. We at that point, I had three grandchildren. Now I have five as of like two days ago, and that like all of a sudden, I was I got really worried that I was going to his memory was going to fade as a new memories backfilled. And I think that's been the scariest thing for me. And I'm like still really resistant of it.
00:44:22
Speaker 4: And that's why I think personally, people hold on to the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the connection to the ones of And when that pain starts to go away, well, I should say, the pain ends up defining the only thing that connects you and your loved one, and so it feels like it's getting more distance, but in fact you're still carrying it. It's just redefining itself and it's it's becoming something else, and you're allowing yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally doesn't always feel that way.
00:45:01
Speaker 2: Yes, I think for me, my kids again, seven years out, now we can laugh about some.
00:45:10
Speaker 3: Of the things that went on life.
00:45:12
Speaker 2: We can bring back those memories and the pain, as you said, Michael, is still there, but it has receded some because there are other parts of joy, whether or not he can share in them. My kids and I can look at life that we have now and again be so grateful for what we have while still saying you know, oh, what would your dad say about this? And it brings smiles to our faces. Now the pain is still there, but you know it pain, the grief ebbs and flows. And I love the fact that, again, different generation, but you have James to walk hand in hand with you through this grief and the love for Laura while still building this new life for you.
00:46:01
Speaker 3: And I have the same with my children.
00:46:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's the way I feel like we're always in this mentality that there's limited space and and and they're they're like if if I ended up having a second child, I would love that kid just as much as James, and like it's expansive, and so it's like, let's let's try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know, like they, we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love, just like Joe and your family's growing. And it's like you thought you were at your macs of love until those grandkids entered the world. And it's like, let's quit digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong. Let's just keep watering.
00:47:00
Speaker 1: It just flow with like is somebody I always So I have this thought in my mind and I don't know if you two have it. Also that John sends me signs sometimes when I need them. So Father is a really hard day for us normally, well this year, and I'm gonna cry talking about this. My oldest son, who misses his father so much, got to be a dad and it was early that they became Early, I felt like John sent us somebody to be happy about.
00:47:26
Speaker 4: I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys, and how happy that makes me feel, because like that's that's the that's the life right. It takes away and it allows for a new life to come into your world. And it's such a it's such a beautiful thing. I'm so happy for it.
00:47:48
Speaker 2: I get the same thing my daughter the other day, uh said, some things went on in her life, and she told me after the fact, she said, Dad, I need a sign. I need a sign. And she said with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which was was sort of one of our things, came and just sat on her shirt.
00:48:09
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean I love that.
00:48:12
Speaker 1: Do you ever get any signs from Laura?
00:48:15
Speaker 4: Oh, geez, I mean all the time. I mean, James is a walking sign. I mean, for one, I'm telling nature versus nurture nature. It's nature like he laughs, like her. His anxiety is like her, His like OCD organizational type A behavior is identical to her. It's it's unbelievable. And I have this like, I have this faith right that I know for certain that we're all going to see them again. So from now until then, it's just time. It's just time. And you know what, we've done a good job of We've done a good job of creating the most ridiculous story be able to share with them. Guys, we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's The Bachelor, The Bachelor at the most wild thing that was never in our plans at all.
00:49:18
Speaker 2: Let's let's not forget paradise, Michael, you, let's not forget paradise bathing suits.
00:49:25
Speaker 1: So I got to hand to you, guys, I've.
00:49:27
Speaker 4: Got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with for the rest of my life.
00:49:31
Speaker 2: On that.
00:49:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that you know, I'm proud of us for doing that, for still having that like zest for life and desire to not sit still. And if people are sitting still after lost, I'm not judging that. Take your time. I did it too, everybody's done it. But I'm I'm proud that the courage that it took to just get out there and try something just completely.
00:49:57
Speaker 1: John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like, yeah, thinking, like, am I like not respecting his memory by going on.
00:50:05
Speaker 4: You know, the judgments everywhere?
00:50:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought that I'm going to get that. And then I said that to a friend of mine ago, I'm not really He had offered it to me, and I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to go and do it. I you know, are people going to think I don't like I still love him like that, I could that I could move on, And am I not respecting that memory by doing something like so big and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person. And my friend said, oh my god, you're being ridiculous. John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing, gregarious person in the world. And I'm like, oh my god, he would love She's right, he would have loved this. So I was like, literally that moment I made the decision, I'm like, he loved this. I'm not not respecting him. I know.
00:50:42
Speaker 5: I have a lot of questions one day, want too, Yeah, so my husband, because you know, obviously, this is nothing any of us would have done had we had we had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief and having to build a new life.
00:51:00
Speaker 3: But for me, it was very life affirming.
00:51:02
Speaker 2: The whole experience of Bachelor's life affirming, and frankly, all three of us are people that are building lives through the grief.
00:51:12
Speaker 3: We are finding.
00:51:13
Speaker 2: Ways with our families to love life and love each other and love others.
00:51:19
Speaker 3: And who could ask for more?
00:51:20
Speaker 4: Right that's it exactly.
00:51:22
Speaker 3: And with that, if.
00:51:24
Speaker 2: Someone is listening right now and they have a friend or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope that this has helped you.
00:51:33
Speaker 3: This podcast has helped you.
00:51:34
Speaker 1: And you can also get Let's tell everybody where you can get Michael's book where the Wildheart Grows on the Wildheart Grows dot com. Is that right, Michael?
00:51:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we decided to sell online The Wildheart Grows dot Com. You can order it there. Shipments are going out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good, it's so beautiful. I'm sad now that like I'm not creating it anymore, and now it's out into the world volume two.
00:52:09
Speaker 1: Here you got stories waiting in the background.
00:52:12
Speaker 4: Well, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. And I appreciate you guys having us on. I could do this all day.
00:52:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we could.
00:52:20
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:52:21
Speaker 2: You are an amazing, amazing man, and your stories are incredible, both the ones in the book and your life story that you were sharing with us today.
00:52:31
Speaker 4: It's a comedy, isn't it.
00:52:34
Speaker 1: You've made us laugh.
00:52:35
Speaker 4: Thank you Yeah, you too.
00:52:37
Speaker 3: So are you like us and have lost a spouse, finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and need some help.
00:52:46
Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes. Follow us on socials too, Please
00:52:53
Speaker 2: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective.
Speaker 1: Hey, I do Part two. It's your celebrity mentors me, Joan Vassos and Kathy Schwartz, And today we get to connect with someone from Bachelor Nation who is in the same club as us that no one wants to be a member of. Of course, we're talking about the club for people who have lost a spouse.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joan and I we've both lost spouses. But it feels a little different because our children were a little bit older. But you know, it's still is club no one wants to belong to. And today we are going to chat with someone who is in that same group with us. We all met Michael on Katie Thurston season of The Bachelorette and again on Bachelor in Paradise. He has a new children's book out that we also can't wait to talk with him about.
00:01:14
Speaker 3: But in the meantime, please welcome Michael to the pod.
00:01:17
Speaker 4: Hi Michael, Hi, thanks for having me on. Guys. You look great and I'm so happy to be on here and be able to chat with you guys about all things and this dreadful club that we're all Yeah.
00:01:30
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me, since we are all members of this club, tell us about your late wife Laura and what she was like.
00:01:44
Speaker 4: I appreciate that question too. I met Laura when I was eighteen. I was a freshman in college. She was a senior in high school on a college visit, and I saw her from across the quad walking around campus and I told her, no joke. I said, if you come here next fall, then I'll make it worth your while.
00:02:07
Speaker 3: Bumps.
00:02:07
Speaker 2: I love that.
00:02:08
Speaker 4: And this is without Facebook, this is without I didn't have her cell phone. I ended up seeing her in the cafeteria the following fall and lived up to my promise. So we were together for sixteen years. We had all life smilestones, got the job, you know, moved together, grew together, and had a kid, James, And when we welcomed him into the world, we had about seven seven months a bliss before we found breast cancer. So he actually stopped taking milk from one side at Laura's breast, and that's how we found it. And so it went from all of this bliss to kind of life just flipped upside down, as it often does with any diagnosis sets out there, and it was a wild ride. She passed away in two thousand and nineteen, when James was two and since then been really solo dadding it until recently with my gorgeous, gorgeous girlfriend Jade, who's just been such a blessing in our life. But life is crazy, and as you both know very well, you can have as many plans as you want. Life doesn't necessarily care and sometimes we're left to pick up the pieces and find our way back.
00:03:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, that kind of leads me into the next question about being a father of a young child. I know my kids were grown, my last, my youngest, my fourth was in college when John passed away, so I know that, you know, possibly my experience was a lot different than yours. I'd like to hear about, like the way you processed your gree if you have a young child, did you have time to process your group grief for has that been like really delayed and coming in to focus now, you know, maybe a little later in life.
00:03:59
Speaker 4: I think that it's a great question, and I think grief often gets this broad brushstroke. You know, we all lost somebody, but all of our grief is so incredibly different, and none is better, less painful than the other. They're all different and we can see benefits and we can learn lessons throughout the whole thing, But it doesn't take away the challenge and the pain of trying to find your identity and your footing after life just really goes unplanned. And you know, with with James and with my own dealing with grief, I was kind of thrown into it. I really just like, as you guys know, being a caregiver, I mean that teaches you first and foremost that you have to be the rock. You have to be able to serve like you have. You can't put your fears on somebody else, even though they are so present. You have to get them to the next scam or the next appointment. You have to find that strength. And I felt like for me, the same thing was true about grief. I really had to run into just being a single dad. I mean, our goal was to have a child together, to raise James together, and when after she passed, I was really nervous because I was like, do I have the tools to raise this kid on my own? Is grief going to define me? And also my son? And I always have this fear of I think every parent does, where the actions that you have as a parent they make such an impact on a child that it's like, is this going to affect so many generations, and so it has to be handled with so much care, is so much pressure, and so you know, I always tried to walk that balance with my son on grief and allowing him to be a kid, while still allowing that space for us to be able to talk about his mom, even though he was so young when she passed.
00:06:10
Speaker 2: Joan, I don't know, Michael, if you're aware my husband died by suicide also in twenty nineteen.
00:06:18
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry to hear that key.
00:06:19
Speaker 3: Thank you.
00:06:20
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, But I wanted to just get back to the conversation about grief because you and Joan both lost your spouse's to illnesses where there were doctor's appointments, you had time to prepare, if that's even a thing. Yeah, and so I've often people ask me about my grief journey.
00:06:42
Speaker 3: I don't know.
00:06:43
Speaker 2: As you said, Michael, grief is grief, and we all experienced it differently, and you have to walk through grief to get to the other side. You know, you can't run away from it. But for you and Joan, I'm very curious how grief. I still have moments when I have just the grief washes over me, And I just wonder when your wife was sick and Joan, when John was sick, are you already experiencing the grief before you lose your spouse.
00:07:15
Speaker 4: Do you want to take that at Joan or you want me to?
00:07:18
Speaker 1: I know you and I have talked about this, which is funny because we had moments where we thought maybe we were going to do maybe a little something together to talk about things just like this, because people don't get it. You do, Kathy, I think a little bit, because you've experienced like intense grief. But I'll tell you I was in denial, to be perfectly honest, which was so naive of me. But I kept thinking John was such a healthy man. And you probably thought the same thing about Laura, like how could she not be here, you know, for the rest of our kids' lives. And so John went from weighing like two hundred pounds two hundred and ten pounds, and I still in my mind thought he was going to live. And it was so like I was in such denial that when he passed away, I think I was in chalk for like a year. I just was surviving. I just one foot in front of the other. How about you, Michael. I wonder how you did it. I know you couldn't just put one foot in front of the other. You had to raise a kid, right, Yeah.
00:08:13
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I I we rang the bell twice, you know, we went on vacations. I second your opinion, Joan, that as caregivers we never give up hope. But there was a there was a time when, I mean I knew enough about the cancer and everything where it had spread to a different part in your body, and I knew, and I could see it in the doctor's eyes that it was that it was uphill. And so I even though my brain told me that this was inevitable, my heart wouldn't let me accept that. And we still maintained hope to the last day, kind of searching, searching for a miracle.
00:09:01
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:09:02
Speaker 2: And what's so interesting, and Joan, you and I have talked about this. I was in denial after my husband died. I kept thinking that I was having a nightmare and I was going to wake up and he was going to be there. And my children were obviously much older than your son, James, Michael, but and yours world er.
00:09:24
Speaker 3: Too, Joan. But you still have those family.
00:09:29
Speaker 2: Issues and the grief that just permeates transcends everything, regardless of the age of your children.
00:09:37
Speaker 3: So it's just interesting.
00:09:39
Speaker 4: If grief taught me anything, it's the duality of life. Yeah, two things are true at the same time, and all things are true at the exact same time. I mean, I used to think that grief was about hurting less and over time I've learned and that it is really about holding loss and pain and beauty in the same hand. And I wrote about this once that grief is a gift, and it's grief is a gift because I loved everything that Laura gave me, the memories, James, I mean sixteen years. We built a life together in many ways, the things, the habits that I have or habits that we developed together, and it was it was one of those things where after she passed away, I was I was just really really lost on who I was, what my identity was. Am I capable of this all of the all of the things that maybe I took for granted that she did.
00:10:51
Speaker 1: I just love that you like you talk about the habits that you formed because you were together for so long, and Kathy, you probably have the same thing that I have. I was together with John for two years, and I didn't know how not to be a couple. All of a sudden, I was floating out in this universe by myself, and I hadn't been that way for so long, and I didn't know how to do it. I'm still not sure. I'm very good at it. I'm not really alone. I have chalk, obviously, but like he's not the father of my kids. And we don't have like a lot of couple friends together because we don't live near each other. And I have a couple of friends that I developed from my kids were really really little, and we raised our children together. And then all of a sudden, I was like, suddenly not part of this group. Because couples like to exist with other couples exist with singles, and you become this island.
00:11:37
Speaker 4: And you're out.
00:11:48
Speaker 2: My experience was I also met my husband. I was had just turned to eighteen when I met him. I met him the first day of college and I looked across the room and I told my I love that. I said, I'm going to marry that guy. And I did and we were together, almost married almost forty six years. So for me, for me, this journey of rediscovering who I am. I had to learn from the get go because I was married when I was twenty years old.
00:12:20
Speaker 4: I mean, it's ridiculous, and it's you know, regardless of what's right or what's wrong or anything, you end up growing into one. Yes, yeah, I think that's actually a very healthy thing where it's too You maintain your individuality, of course throughout the course of a marriage, but you can't help but morph into each other. And I've had so many conversations with widowers and widows about this, and everybody's situation is so different, so some people would say, man, yours is the worst. Michael James was so young, But here I didn't have to have the same of conversations that you did Kathy like or you did Joan because your kids were older and and very he passed away. My my biggest thing always was like, how can I make sure that my son's life isn't defined by this? How how can I learn tools that I wasn't born with? But I need to adopt immediately so that this doesn't create a psychopath that blamed, that blames tragedy for everything that happens in his life. He'll he'll be ten in in September.
00:13:44
Speaker 3: So he was how old when when Laura passed too?
00:13:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that there's like a big it's a weird scale because you think, Okay, James isn't missing his mother like the person that he probably does hard remembers, correct, But then you have the job of reminding him and keeping her memory alive, because there is going to be a day maybe when he's fifteen or sixteen, or seventeen or eighteen or some time in the near future, that he's going to want to know about his mom. And it sounds like really good.
00:14:16
Speaker 4: It's this balance between very much keeping her alive and not making him feel pressure that he doesn't remember. Yeah, I've seen I've seen a lot of people make mistakes about kind of they're they're so anxious about making sure that they don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. But kids that young, they're not going to remember. None of us remember anything when we were two and so and so one of the reason ways I kind of bring that up is is he'll do something that reminds me of her. Yeah, you know, I'll let him know that he is very much a part of her. He'll laugh he does. He's incredibly books, which she was and I wasn't. And so I'll say, you know, that reminds me just that your mom and then that that facilitates a conversation not you know, do you remember, Yeah, all of this because you know, I don't want the kids shouldn't feel the guilt that he may he or she may have forgotten.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the and that grief is different, you know, the missing somebody intensely, that grief, Like I wake up in the middle of night still feeling that. I think I feel that, you know, thank god he doesn't feel that. And that's what I worry about for my kids. They're older, but they John so now. So they're now thirty six, thirty five, thirty two and turning thirty on tomorrow, actually the day after tomorrow, so you know, so John's been gone for six years, press so you know, Luke was just get out of college, and like they have all these adulthood moments that they miss their father so intensely. So that's like a little bit of a different kind of grief. Like You're son is going to realize. I'm sure he already does that. All of his friends have a mom and he doesn't. My kids all like see their all their friends have a dad, and you know they need their mentoring and they don't have a dad to mentor them anymore. And I have two boys and two girls, and the boys really feel.
00:16:17
Speaker 4: It, you know, hats hats off to our club, right like I. You know, I am. I have to apply and I think I'm going to speak for you guys and too, because I can feel it. We have to apply some sort of purpose to it, and we have to extract lessons from what life has given us or else it's all in vain and it's not toxic positivity. It's nothing like that. But I have learned so much about how to live a more fulfilled life after brushing so close with death. Like I think, if prior to death and it being a part of our life and being on the oncology floor and all of that for two years talking with people living it, breathing it, I think if you would ask me what do I want in my life in order to be happy? I would have had a hard time with that. But if you were to ask me what do I don't want to what don't I want to regret in my life? I can answer that now, because when you talk to people at the end of their life, when you walk the floor, when you speak with people of age, they will tell you all the things that they regret, and it's the blueprint for how to live a happier life. And so yes, I am burdened. I carry grief. I carry that pain every single day, and the second I think I made sense of it, I wake up in the morning and it hits me like a brick. But that's the gift of grief, and it provides for us. We don't create our own problems as much anymore because we know what real problems are and it allows us to just, I don't know, a structure a life that we can be proud of.
00:18:14
Speaker 1: Sounds like that you channeled your grief into writing this book and it's going to help other people. So you've found a purpose at least, you know, in the time being. I would love to hear more about your book, Where the Wild Heart Grows. What made you write a book just like this?
00:18:35
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think one of the misconceptions is that the book is about grief. It's actually about many, many, many things. It's about growing up, it's about growing old. It uses nature as a metaphor and a teacher to be able to allow us to accept the seasons of our own life. And there's seven an interconnected story is it's very old world. I actually have a copy right here. Every illustration was done oil on canvas by James's best friend. His name is Tommy. His dad's a professional oil painter, and so we did thirty five illustrations the old school way to try to slow down time, to try to teach kids without lecturing, but through storytelling, that the still moments in life, the tough seasons in life, the letting go allows for new growth, and that there's so much by just observing nature that we can learn about our own life and all that growth that happens, and all that's uncomfortable.
00:19:53
Speaker 2: I have to say. I read the advanced copy. The illustrations are incredib I think you have a call Decott.
00:20:03
Speaker 3: Winner on your hands here. Thank you, but I cannot believe.
00:20:08
Speaker 2: And I want about fifteen copies because we'll get back to the second art, sort of dealing with grandchildren on all this grief and loss that we're talking about.
00:20:19
Speaker 3: But in your.
00:20:20
Speaker 2: Book you talk about courage, loss, kindness, resilience, wonder the struggle to talk about healing with your son. And I love one of the lunch you had, wild, the wild beauty of everyday moments, And that is exactly what that book, to me represents, slowing down and seeing the beauty in everyday moments.
00:20:46
Speaker 4: Thank you. I didn't really set out to write a book. These are seven stories that James hands selected. I actually wrote thirty five of them all in the sure so he han't selected some of some of them. He's like, yeah, that's not that's not making the cut, and I'm like, oh, everyone's a chrismal, right, there really is. But I really really appreciate that. I some people ask me who's this book for? And I always have a tough time putting it in parameters because I have this idea and I'm just deep help belief that the basic things that we learned as kids we have forgotten as adults. And when when you were talking with a child, when you're talking with anybody, if you begin to lecture to them, they begin to put up their walls, their ego starts coming up, they start defending, and that's not me or they pull away. And for me, I noticed that with James early on. It was the whole how is your day? It was good? What you do? Nothing? Nothing, you're feeling I'm fine, And I'm like, I've heard this story before because I did the same thing. And so at nighttime, I started just writing stories about these individual topics that all humans go through, whether or not you're growing up or growing old. And it is the courage to begin again. There's a story about us. There's a story about a spider.
00:22:21
Speaker 1: Whose web keep I'm sitting here right there. I took a picture of that quote, honestly because it resonated so much. I have it right here. I'd love to read it so the audience knows what we're talking about, because I think it talks about us, It talks about your son, It talks about so many people, probably not just us. And it says, maybe strength isn't in the web, Maybe it's in the weaving, in the courage to begin again. And everybody will have probably a challenge to begin something again, whether it's you know, starting in a life without a spouse. Hopefully you know not many people have to experience that, but even in like losing a job or losing your home, there's you know, we're all going to experience some place where you have to find stre to begin again.
00:23:01
Speaker 4: I love that Joan, and it's spot on because even in that story, someone asked, the spider's so upset that its web keeps falling down, and then it's asked, you know, tell me about the first web you ever made, and the spider is like, it's absolutely awful. It was threaded together, it didn't catch any food. It was an absolute mess. And then the spiders asked, you know, if that one lasts forever, you would have starved. Yeah, And that's really the simple kind of wisdom in this is what we want to hold on forever. Sometimes isn't meant to be, and we are forced to have the courage to begin again and start.
00:23:43
Speaker 2: Leaving while we're sitting here giving our quotes. I think your book is as relevant and insightful for adults as it is for children. What matters is not clinging to what was, but trusting what will be. I read that, I thought, I have never met you before today, and I thought, thank you that just reading that quote gives me hope. It's what will be, you know, one foot in the past, never forgetting, and moving forward and looking towards the future.
00:24:13
Speaker 3: So thank you for that quote as well.
00:24:15
Speaker 4: Thank you. There's tons littered throughout. I really appreciate you guys talking about how it's larger than grief because it's it's lessons we can all pull from at any point in our life, no matter what we're going through.
00:24:31
Speaker 2: Right. I want to ask you, though, how specifically do you think, because you wrote this book sort of to help you talk to James about these things, or that was one of the reasons, how do you think this will help children to comprehend grief and loss?
00:24:48
Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I again, I think it's grief, it's loss, it's growing, it's it's it's courage, it's it's friendship, it's kindness, it's all of those things. When kids are going through the forest of their own life and they feel overwhelmed and they feel lost, to recognize that in that stillness, that in that area where we feel like we're not developing, that our roots are growing, that growth is happening even when we can't feel it. And I always have this idea of, you know, hopefully Jade keeps me out of the nursing home when I'm you know, ninety years old or whatever. But I walk through a nursing home. See my grandma and I look in these rooms and they are people with real stories, you know, people with lives well lived. And the one thing you notice is that they jump out of their seat as fast as they can when they see a young child, and you start to look at them and their phones not ringing, and it breaks my heart. And I know for a fact if I were to go talk to any of those people that are sitting in their room, that they would transport to the hardest time in their life, the time in our life that we are so excited to try to get out of. Yeah, And it's like, this is life. The whole thing is life. And if you're waiting for something down the road to fulfill you, you're gonna miss it.
00:26:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:26:32
Speaker 4: And so it's it's this really this call to be present for children, for adults, for anybody going through it, because, believe it or not, the worst time in your life, one day, you're gonna miss it. You're going to miss the lessons it taught you.
00:26:47
Speaker 1: I love that. I like living in the present is so hard, but I think we all learned a lesson because our future was kind of taken away from us, and that was like the biggest thing for me if there was this black hole ahead of me now and I didn't have a future, And to learn how to live in a present so I don't miss that so much has been such a gift. And so when you talk about this grief journey being a gift, that's probably the biggest one that I took from this. Like living in the moment a lot more.
00:27:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, and allowing yourself to mess up, allowing your allowing yourself to not have a timeline, to not compare yourselves to others in any form or fashion, and to give yourself permission to just be yourself. I fear for our kids living in the digital age with social media, that what makes them special is uted and it's going to get censored because they're so afraid of being criticized. And there's a story in this book about the dancing Dandelion and people. People can read all about it, but it's about celebrating who you are, regardless of who's watching, because you have something to offer this world, even though people may judge you, laugh at you. The worst thing any of us could ever do is to silence our gift just because we're trying to fit.
00:28:22
Speaker 1: In we kind of touched on this a little bit about how our grief ebbs and flows, and we've all feel that sometimes it hits us like a ton of bricks. But now that you are kind of seven years out, I'm sure your grief is very different than it was when it first occurred. What things are you processing now? And I'd love to hear these things from you because I feel like when you say them, it kind of solidifies them, like this ideas that are my head. You're so eloquent when you talk about it. I'd love to hear what you're processing seven years later.
00:29:02
Speaker 4: Gratitude.
00:29:06
Speaker 2: I am seven years out. That was when you asked that question, John, I knew you asked it to Michael. I was thinking gratitude for every minute of my life, every sunrise, every's continue on, Michael.
00:29:19
Speaker 4: But please please keep talking. I want to I want to hear what you have to say.
00:29:24
Speaker 2: Well, no, it's just that I when we talk about walking through grief, and I think the biggest thing that my husband's death taught me was many of the things you've said, Michael. But enjoying every moment being it is it be, you know, being kind, being present, all the things that you've been talking about, really taking time to look at nature, enjoy my children, enjoying my great.
00:29:52
Speaker 3: The little things that were so busy.
00:29:55
Speaker 2: And scheduled that when my husband died and it was so obviously abrupt, there were so many things that were left unseat, so many things that were left undone. So uh, seven years later, seven years later, I have grandchildren. I have three children, and I really try to soak up every minute of my life their life.
00:30:22
Speaker 4: And you you know, we won't regret that. And I think the gratitude for me, too, to echo what you're saying, is is also just relief that I'm here because there was a time when I grief was so heavy. I didn't know who I was going to become after this. I didn't know how it was going to change me. I didn't know how my worldview, if it was going to make me hard and hate the world for what it did and questioning God and do all of those things. And instead it has allowed me to really appreciate the things that I overlooked with a whole different lens and welcome them to my life. I'm so happy to see I'm so happy to see James running the front door from the school bus, completely bypass me and run into Jade's arms.
00:31:18
Speaker 1: Oh I love that.
00:31:20
Speaker 3: Can we talk a little bit about Jade?
00:31:22
Speaker 4: So absolutely?
00:31:25
Speaker 3: So I know that she's moved in with you.
00:31:28
Speaker 2: I'm curious how you met, how that whole evolution has taken place, that she is now integrated into your life. And as you say, you can still hold Laura and that memory. Two things can be true at once, loving more than one person at once.
00:31:45
Speaker 4: But I'm oh, absolutely, And I think if any listeners are are trying to find that balance, obviously take your time. But I think a lot of people will tell you it exists, and just give it. Give it time you're ready, don't rush into anything. But after I got off the Bachelorette Katie or a Katie season, Jade saw me on TV. She reached out and we never had like a romantic relationship. It was a friendship kind of thing, just admiration for me what I've been through. And we found just through that a long mutual friendship, long distance. And she was in Hollywood, in West Hollywood doing her own thing, and there was just the longest time where it's like, yeah, could there be something here? But look, you're across the across the country. I'm in akron Olisle and I'm not laving so over time. This was about about two years ago. We met up in LA when I was out there, and I saw her again and it was almost like the same exact way I saw Laura across the quad. It was it was and I was so so happy that I felt that again. Yes, And if you would have asked me seven years ago, hell, four years ago, I would have said, I that feeling's gone. It's gonna have to feel so different now. But that's the only feeling I know. And it's almost as though like in that moment, my heart chose her and we committed to each other and developed that relationship and then, yeah, it took the plunge two years or she's been here for two years. And integrating a family is a challenging thing. I've gotten so many questions and critiques from people, Why won't you marry this woman already?
00:33:53
Speaker 3: You know?
00:33:54
Speaker 4: And it's all these things, And the truth is is, you know, I'm probably going to I'm going to do.
00:34:02
Speaker 3: You want more children?
00:34:03
Speaker 4: So we've talked about that. Originally I wanted three, and now I'm forty two.
00:34:11
Speaker 2: And I'm exhausted, like I mean, trust me, Michael, it gets worse.
00:34:18
Speaker 4: Oh oh oh, I know, I know, But the last decade has been a tough one on this guy in every which way. Just being mom, being dad, managing careers, doing all of this, making sure you're present is exhausting. And he is. He's so enough and so like right now, it's a season of first because I've never been able to raise James alongside somebody, so I don't have the blueprint on how to do this. I'm learning something new every day. I'm humbled as hell by life. But it's great to have somebody who we can capture memories together with and we can share all of those life moments with and after he goes to bed, we can talk in bed about where what we did right, what we did wrong, you know, all of those things that just I don't know, just make it all worth it.
00:35:18
Speaker 1: I love. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when you first introduced this concept to James about you dating someone, and I'm sure you would have never done unless you had known this was like maybe your person, and so probably didn't have it until you met Jade. I would love to know what you said to James, How did you introduce this concept?
00:35:38
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I've it's always I mean, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie. It's always been a tricky thing because James and I have developed i mean, were one. He's known, you know, me and him in this house and that's it.
00:35:56
Speaker 3: And so.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: Eventually it was like, we have to take a plunge, and it's going to be uncomfortable, and what we're all going to find out is that it's not as hard as we think it is. And I think that that message is so true for starting again after loss, about imagining what's it going to be like going on that first date, What's it going to be like driving to someone that's not my husband, What's it going to be like when those inside jokes that we shared and those memories that we always talked about at dinner are no longer remembered by the person I'm now dating. They smell different, they look different, they're all these things and you just have to have to begin knowing that it's a process, and as long as you're patient and trying to be understanding, taking time, knowing that there's love kind of bring it back to simplicity, that things will fall into place and people will just I think avoiding the conversations is the worst thing. I think. I think kids can handle a lot more than adults typically can. I think they're more resilient and more understanding and have less biased than adults have developed over the years. So that's been my experience. But I if that comes across like I am an expert, I am far from that. It is it is. It has been a journey.
00:37:27
Speaker 1: Let me tell you you've done it well.
00:37:40
Speaker 3: So Joan.
00:37:41
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Michael, because you're talking about introducing your son to another woman.
00:37:49
Speaker 3: Joan.
00:37:50
Speaker 2: You and I both have grandchildren, and in both of our cases are our husbands never got to spend meet or spend time with their grandchildren. And Joan, I don't know, Michael. I you know, Joan just had two grandchildren born.
00:38:11
Speaker 4: Joan, congrats, thank you.
00:38:14
Speaker 1: It's such a blessing. But you're right, Kathy. You know, I think about when I asked you the question of like, what are you processing now? Seven years later, my thought was that life isn't fair. That was my thought. You guys had gratitude. I wish I had gratitude. I do but really, my first thing that came to my mind is life isn't fair, and that's how these big moments. So there's little moments that I think, oh, like John would have loved that sunset. He love sunsets, and I'll see the beautiful sunset and all it makes me sad. Even though I'm happy I'm seeing this beautiful sunset, I feel sad that I don't have John, you know, that he doesn't get.
00:38:50
Speaker 3: To share it.
00:38:51
Speaker 1: And it's even you know, even more magnified with things like big, like big life events. So when my John actually did see one of our grandchildren get born and he got to walk one of our two daughters down the aisle, so he did experience those big moments. But you know, life keeps moving on, and that's what makes me the sadest.
00:39:13
Speaker 4: I think I picked up a little bit when you're going, Kathy, which was experiencing first yeah and having having say chalk and you be able to experience all these first with with grandkids. And I know for a fact, and I'll I'll just say this is one of the hardest things in the world, which I never would have predicted, was sharing James with somebody else and That's the weirdest thing because the entire time while I'm grieving, I am like, God, can I just find somebody to share him with. When it starts happening, it almost feels at first like a violation or al or something like that. And then again and over time it starts to feel less like that and more normal and all of that.
00:40:06
Speaker 3: So I get that, and so for me it's a flip side.
00:40:11
Speaker 2: I feel like I have to be grandmother and grandfather. I'm so sorry that. You know, my husband, I have one daughter. He didn't get to walk his daughter down the aisle for her wedding. These adorable granddaughters that I have, he saw one for.
00:40:32
Speaker 3: A few months.
00:40:33
Speaker 2: But those things, I feel compelled to be the grandmother, the grandfather, to give my grandchildren the memories that you are trying to impart to your son. It's just sort of the next generation of that makes sense.
00:40:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, And playing those dual roles is tricky, and you know, there's a lot of responsibility and weight that we put on ourselves to kind of live for those that aren't here, and really all we have to do is just be just be ourselves, because that's that's so enough. I mean life, life is painful without a doubt. I mean, life is dark, life is all those things. But if you are able to just understand that the dark seasons in your life are just seasons, and that if you can be resilient enough to just get through them, know that they'll pass. There's light at the end of that tunnel. It could be grandkids, it could be finding new love, it could you know, just who knows. Like, let's let's stop trying to plan everything.
00:41:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, as your story says, the acorns fall to the ground, but in the spring, new leaves come out.
00:41:44
Speaker 4: I just they always they always do. There's the whole idea like behind the book too, was I was looking outside of my window in my bedroom and I was looking at this tree. And this tree has been in my backyard forever and it was during the first year that Lore passed, and I felt like I have one of those moments where I watched this tree through all four seasons and you know, it's growing new leaves, it's turning you know, amber and an orange, leaves are falling and all that, and I was just wondering, does the tree worn? Is the tree grieving? You know, does does the tree miss the squirrels that don't come around. Does the tree feel like it doesn't have value or purpose anymore because it doesn't have acorns or fruit for other animals, or nourishment or shade. But it's like no, Like trees are wise. They understand that they have to let go in order to allow for new growth, and they it's just this cycle. And if we take ourselves out of the moment, we've all been through these cycles before, they just look a little different. Like there's nothing scarier than being in your teenage years and everybody's saying, what are you going to do with your life? Who are you? What are you going to become? Where are you going to live? How much money are you gonna make? What is it? You're like, I don't even know who I am, and I'm supposed to figure this out. It's frightening. There's nothing but questions ahead. And it's like we've gone through those seasons of death and rebirth multiple times throughout our life, and that's that's like all lie this are these seasons of turning the page and allowing things to let go.
00:43:30
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the hardest thing for me, is turning that page. I remember this year at the anniversary of John's death. He died on January eighteenth, and I went to the cemetery and I happen to be alone that day. My kids had gone the day before, and I went by myself, and I thought, for the first time, I felt like he wasn't part of our life, that life had moved on enough that like the light that we are creating now would have been foreign to him.
00:43:58
Speaker 3: All.
00:43:58
Speaker 1: You know, three of the four kids are married. We at that point, I had three grandchildren. Now I have five as of like two days ago, and that like all of a sudden, I was I got really worried that I was going to his memory was going to fade as a new memories backfilled. And I think that's been the scariest thing for me. And I'm like still really resistant of it.
00:44:22
Speaker 4: And that's why I think personally, people hold on to the pain because the pain hurts, but it's still the connection to the ones of And when that pain starts to go away, well, I should say, the pain ends up defining the only thing that connects you and your loved one, and so it feels like it's getting more distance, but in fact you're still carrying it. It's just redefining itself and it's it's becoming something else, and you're allowing yourself a better, happier life, even though I know personally doesn't always feel that way.
00:45:01
Speaker 2: Yes, I think for me, my kids again, seven years out, now we can laugh about some.
00:45:10
Speaker 3: Of the things that went on life.
00:45:12
Speaker 2: We can bring back those memories and the pain, as you said, Michael, is still there, but it has receded some because there are other parts of joy, whether or not he can share in them. My kids and I can look at life that we have now and again be so grateful for what we have while still saying you know, oh, what would your dad say about this? And it brings smiles to our faces. Now the pain is still there, but you know it pain, the grief ebbs and flows. And I love the fact that, again, different generation, but you have James to walk hand in hand with you through this grief and the love for Laura while still building this new life for you.
00:46:01
Speaker 3: And I have the same with my children.
00:46:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's the way I feel like we're always in this mentality that there's limited space and and and they're they're like if if I ended up having a second child, I would love that kid just as much as James, and like it's expansive, and so it's like, let's let's try to avoid setting parameters because you don't know, like they, we have unlimited capabilities and capacity to take on new love, just like Joe and your family's growing. And it's like you thought you were at your macs of love until those grandkids entered the world. And it's like, let's quit digging our feet in the ground and pretending like we know these truths when every single time we're proven wrong. Let's just keep watering.
00:47:00
Speaker 1: It just flow with like is somebody I always So I have this thought in my mind and I don't know if you two have it. Also that John sends me signs sometimes when I need them. So Father is a really hard day for us normally, well this year, and I'm gonna cry talking about this. My oldest son, who misses his father so much, got to be a dad and it was early that they became Early, I felt like John sent us somebody to be happy about.
00:47:26
Speaker 4: I can't imagine how emotional that is for you guys, and how happy that makes me feel, because like that's that's the that's the life right. It takes away and it allows for a new life to come into your world. And it's such a it's such a beautiful thing. I'm so happy for it.
00:47:48
Speaker 2: I get the same thing my daughter the other day, uh said, some things went on in her life, and she told me after the fact, she said, Dad, I need a sign. I need a sign. And she said with that, a butterfly just came. A yellow butterfly, which was was sort of one of our things, came and just sat on her shirt.
00:48:09
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean I love that.
00:48:12
Speaker 1: Do you ever get any signs from Laura?
00:48:15
Speaker 4: Oh, geez, I mean all the time. I mean, James is a walking sign. I mean, for one, I'm telling nature versus nurture nature. It's nature like he laughs, like her. His anxiety is like her, His like OCD organizational type A behavior is identical to her. It's it's unbelievable. And I have this like, I have this faith right that I know for certain that we're all going to see them again. So from now until then, it's just time. It's just time. And you know what, we've done a good job of We've done a good job of creating the most ridiculous story be able to share with them. Guys, we did not like sit around. We went on ABC's The Bachelor, The Bachelor at the most wild thing that was never in our plans at all.
00:49:18
Speaker 2: Let's let's not forget paradise, Michael, you, let's not forget paradise bathing suits.
00:49:25
Speaker 1: So I got to hand to you, guys, I've.
00:49:27
Speaker 4: Got tons of stuff that I can embarrass James with for the rest of my life.
00:49:31
Speaker 2: On that.
00:49:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, and that you know, I'm proud of us for doing that, for still having that like zest for life and desire to not sit still. And if people are sitting still after lost, I'm not judging that. Take your time. I did it too, everybody's done it. But I'm I'm proud that the courage that it took to just get out there and try something just completely.
00:49:57
Speaker 1: John totally gave me my courage to do that. Like, yeah, thinking, like, am I like not respecting his memory by going on.
00:50:05
Speaker 4: You know, the judgments everywhere?
00:50:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I thought that I'm going to get that. And then I said that to a friend of mine ago, I'm not really He had offered it to me, and I said, God, I'm not sure if I'm going to go and do it. I you know, are people going to think I don't like I still love him like that, I could that I could move on, And am I not respecting that memory by doing something like so big and out there? And I'm kind of a shy person. And my friend said, oh my god, you're being ridiculous. John would have loved this. He was the most outgoing, gregarious person in the world. And I'm like, oh my god, he would love She's right, he would have loved this. So I was like, literally that moment I made the decision, I'm like, he loved this. I'm not not respecting him. I know.
00:50:42
Speaker 5: I have a lot of questions one day, want too, Yeah, so my husband, because you know, obviously, this is nothing any of us would have done had we had we had our person and we weren't experienced in this grief and having to build a new life.
00:51:00
Speaker 3: But for me, it was very life affirming.
00:51:02
Speaker 2: The whole experience of Bachelor's life affirming, and frankly, all three of us are people that are building lives through the grief.
00:51:12
Speaker 3: We are finding.
00:51:13
Speaker 2: Ways with our families to love life and love each other and love others.
00:51:19
Speaker 3: And who could ask for more?
00:51:20
Speaker 4: Right that's it exactly.
00:51:22
Speaker 3: And with that, if.
00:51:24
Speaker 2: Someone is listening right now and they have a friend or family member who has lost a spouse, we hope that this has helped you.
00:51:33
Speaker 3: This podcast has helped you.
00:51:34
Speaker 1: And you can also get Let's tell everybody where you can get Michael's book where the Wildheart Grows on the Wildheart Grows dot com. Is that right, Michael?
00:51:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we decided to sell online The Wildheart Grows dot Com. You can order it there. Shipments are going out first week in July. I am overwhelmed by how much people are resonating with the book. It feels so good, it's so beautiful. I'm sad now that like I'm not creating it anymore, and now it's out into the world volume two.
00:52:09
Speaker 1: Here you got stories waiting in the background.
00:52:12
Speaker 4: Well, you know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. And I appreciate you guys having us on. I could do this all day.
00:52:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we could.
00:52:20
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:52:21
Speaker 2: You are an amazing, amazing man, and your stories are incredible, both the ones in the book and your life story that you were sharing with us today.
00:52:31
Speaker 4: It's a comedy, isn't it.
00:52:34
Speaker 1: You've made us laugh.
00:52:35
Speaker 4: Thank you Yeah, you too.
00:52:37
Speaker 3: So are you like us and have lost a spouse, finding it hard to navigate through life and dating and need some help.
00:52:46
Speaker 1: Send us an email or leave us a voicemail. All the info is in the show notes. Follow us on socials too, Please
00:52:53
Speaker 2: I Do Part two an iHeartRadio podcast where falling in love is the main objective.