Oct. 6, 2026
1st Execution Since Christa Pike: “If The Drugs Don’t Work, They’ll Just Shoot Me In The Head”
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RSS Feed 46-year-old Jamaal Howard is scheduled to die exactly one week after Christa Pike’s failed execution. Howard is headed to Texas’s death row chamber on Wednesday to be administered the exact same single, lethal dose of pentobarbital. The spiritual advisor to Howard is revealing his last conversation with him in the wake of the Christa Pike botched execution, sharing Howard’s emotions as he prepares for the unknown.
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00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Tuesday, October 6th. And tomorrow, one week after the botched execution of Krista Pike, there will be another execution. Yes, it's in another state, but they'll be using the exact same method that was used on Krista Pike. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. Different state. Sure. Robes. Texas.
00:00:27
Speaker 2: Texas.
00:00:28
Speaker 1: They're certainly hoping for a different outcome, but, Rose, we are all going to be watching this one a lot differently and a lot more closely.
00:00:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a big deal.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: This is the first execution since the Krista Pike execution, and, yes, using the exact same single-dose method. You can only imagine every person who will be involved in being a part of that process from the... Guards to the medical professionals to the death row inmate himself and the people there gathered to witness. Everyone is going to be thinking of Krista Pike.
00:01:07
Speaker 1: What are the chances, Robes? Exactly one week later, all eyes on another death chamber. One dose pentobarbital. So yes, we're talking about a different state, but Robes? What are they doing differently, would you imagine, to prep? now that that's happened last week?
00:01:28
Speaker 2: I would imagine they'd be practicing. They'd be looking for veins. If you're the person who is responsible for correctly inserting the IV into a vein to get that poison straight into the bloodstream, I would be practicing. I would make sure that I could do it with my eyes closed, half asleep.
00:01:50
Speaker 1: Rose, what do you do there? Are they going to have even a tougher time finding people to do this. I know, Texas is a different state. They do it more frequently, and maybe that's not the issue. But Robes, I cannot believe a week later, she is clinging to life as we speak. By the way, yes, Krista Pike is still alive, the last we heard, on a ventilator, but still hasn't woken up Robes in a week since they put a needle in her arm, just like they're going to put a needle in a guy's arm tomorrow night and feed him pentobarbital. That is the plan. Robes, We just heard, folks, we'll tell you who this is. And yes, there are people you would expect. There are people against the death penalty who are fighting to stop the execution. His lawyers are fighting to stop it because they actually say he has a mental illness. He has some disabilities that he shouldn't be executed. But now, Robes, they have a new thing they're going to go argue. Yo, we need to know more about these drugs before the execution. They're now asking for everybody to pump the brakes. And doesn't that make sense?
00:02:52
Speaker 3: Of course.
00:02:53
Speaker 2: Look, we know that any defense team, any attorney team that is representing a death row inmate about to be executed, they will try anything.
00:03:03
Speaker 3: They will try any argument.
00:03:05
Speaker 2: They will ask any court to get a stay, to get a pause, to delay, to kick the can. But now this is a new reason. This wasn't even something to talk about a week ago, two weeks ago. But now, heck yeah, they're going to try and push for answers immediately. we want the expiration date on the drugs. We want to know which pharmaceutical company provided this drug. We want to know who's administering this drug, what their experience is, all of that.
00:03:33
Speaker 3: Now, I would say the only maybe, I.
00:03:38
Speaker 2: Would say the confidence maybe that these Texas officials might have is their last execution was not that long ago.
00:03:44
Speaker 3: It was just September 23rd.
00:03:46
Speaker 2: It was Krishan Ramey He was put to death by that single dose of pentobarbital, and there were not any complications. So they just did this basically two weeks ago.
00:03:59
Speaker 1: And we should note as well, Rose, what we saw with Krista Pike is unprecedented. We have seen issues over the years, right, with finding a vein and whatnot. We just haven't seen anything like that. We've seen them have trouble finding a vein, and then they administer it after they know they have it incorrectly. But robes have never seen anybody think they have it incorrectly and still administer the drug, and they're completely wrong. So what was the guy before Krista Pike even? They said he had a dozenâ Carruthers. Carruthers, right? He was the guy they had to stop his. They had a dozen needle marks in him. But they didn't administer the drug because they didn't find the right vein. Why different with Krista, I wonder?
00:04:38
Speaker 2: They didn't realize that either the vein had burst or that the... I don't know how they didn't understand what was happening with her arms. And the pain she was referencing is a really common thing to happen that usually you know immediately, okay, we got to take the needle out. We got to find a new vein, a different arm, maybe going through the leg, the groin area, the hand. There are plenty of places you can put a needle. And if you see that the one you've placed... isn't incorrectly or that the actual, normally it's medicine, but in this case, the poison, the chemicals, clearly the arm does start to swell.
00:05:16
Speaker 3: Physically, you can see it.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: So I don't know. Is it too late at that point? Can you just pull it out?
00:05:20
Speaker 3: You can pull it out and start with another dose.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: I mean, if they had the second dose protocol, so they knew they were going to be able to take a second shot at it.
00:05:28
Speaker 3: I don't know why. I don't know how that happened.
00:05:31
Speaker 2: And obviously that's what Tennessee is investigating right now.
00:05:43
Speaker 1: And so now Texas is about to use the same method tomorrow on Jamal Howard. This is a man who was a very young man, Robes, when he was convicted back in 2000. He's only 46 years old now. He has spent 26 years in prison. Only 20 years of his life was spent free. That's just to see these cases sometimes. And yes, these are very young men when they commit these crimes. But he's 46 now. Robes, his crime, it seemed... This is one of those petty, unnecessary, pointless, like, are you kidding me crimes that a 42-year-old woman lost her life over 100 bucks, essentially, and some cigarettes.
00:06:23
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what it was. Yes, this crime took place.
00:06:26
Speaker 2: It was May 12, 2000, and Vicki Swartout was her name, 42 years old, as you mentioned. She was working at a convenience store when Jamal Howard, who was.
00:06:37
Speaker 3: 20 years old at the time....
00:06:41
Speaker 2: Shot her and, yes, stole $ 114 and a carton of cigarettes before running out. There was surveillance video, and it captured the entire thing.
00:06:53
Speaker 3: It was him.
00:06:54
Speaker 2: There is no question about his guilt, but there were questions about.
00:06:58
Speaker 3: His mental competency.
00:07:00
Speaker 2: At the time of the crime, throughout his incarceration, and, of course, now, That is the argument that his lawyers had been making to try and prevent his execution, but that argument had not borne fruit. In fact, he lost every single one of his legal arguments in the appellate process with that argument that his attorneys were making.
00:07:22
Speaker 1: Robes, he is pretty much out of chances at this point.
00:07:25
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:07:26
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court, I think, is the only court that hasn't chimed in, but we have seen how that's been going. Now, Robes, the argument they have before the court... I'm not sure if it includes the Pike stuff or not. I'm not sure if it includes... And they would have only submitted it, I mean, really, in recent days or even hours, so they would have had that information. I wonder if they... I don't know if they've stuck that argument in there.
00:07:50
Speaker 3: I honestly don't know. I would imagine they would have.
00:07:51
Speaker 2: Don't they usually just try to put every single argument they can think of? And yes, of course, the mental competency is a big part of that, but I would think they'd have to ask for some sort of... delay at the very least to try and evaluate the way Texas is planning or to proceed with its execution given the events of Frista Pike?
00:08:13
Speaker 1: The other option they do have, and it works, the law a little different there in Texas, the governor can offer a reprieve. He can't just commute the sentence on his own right now. We need the parole board, but he can stop the execution for 30 days. Give 30 days to just take a peek at this thing and figure this out. That's what they're now asking Governor Abbott for, who in 50 executions, they say, has only stopped one, I believe. So not the best hope there. But still, this is a unique situation. I guess maybe, Rob, their best chance might be what happened last week. Their best chance might be, look at what you all are doing to people. You want to do this to our guy without looking into this more?
00:08:54
Speaker 2: But I feel like the state of Texas could also say, look at our last six executions of the year, and they've all gone on without a hitch. Okay.
00:09:02
Speaker 1: This ain't Tennessee.
00:09:04
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:09:04
Speaker 1: Is the response.
00:09:05
Speaker 3: We're Texas.
00:09:06
Speaker 1: That they could possibly give. One thing we want to note, we mentioned the young lady, the 42-year-old who was killed. And let's take a minute here, and we're going to give you actually two things. One that we just came across a short time ago, the spiritual advisor for Jamal Howard. He wrote essentially an op-ed, I guess you could say, Robes, for an outlet in Texas, and he said some pretty remarkable things in particular about his debate about whether or not he wanted to tell Jamal Howard about what happened to Krista Pike. You don't want to miss that, so stick around for that. We will let you hear that. It is some powerful stuff, but Robes, it's always of note on these things when so much emphasis is put on the death row inmate, Mercy for that person and trying to save that person's life. Always got to hear from the family of the victim.
00:10:02
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:10:03
Speaker 2: And just before we decided to sit down and record this episode, Vicki Swartout's family released a statement on the eve of the execution for that very reason.
00:10:15
Speaker 3: They want people to remember who Vicki Swartout was. Here is how it reads.
00:10:20
Speaker 2: Vicki Swardout was an amazing person with a heart bigger than anyone you could imagine. She was hardworking, caring, loving, and the kind of person who would do anything for anyone. If she had something you needed, she would give it to you without thinking twice. That was simply the kind of person Vicki was. She was also a devoted daughter, sister, and aunt. Vicki moved in with her mother to help raise her great niece and nephew. She was someone they could depend on, someone who was always there when she was needed. Vicki's life was taken far too soon, leaving behind a family who loved her and a lifetime of memories that can never be replaced. She may be gone, but she will never be forgotten. There was a family member who added and didn't want to be named, so they were anonymous, but added that Given the crime, it was so... I don't even want to use the word ironic, but just so unnecessary to the point where they said this was literally a woman who would have given him anything. She said if she saw Jamal Howard desperate, needing money, she would have said, what do you need? And she would have given it to him. He didn't need to shoot her. She was the very person who would have just walked away from the counter and said, take what you want. And just to have her be the person... to be murdered by a violent act. They just said it was just the most unthinkable thing because she was just such a giving person.
00:11:44
Speaker 1: So here they are, Rose. They've been waiting 26 years for justice and to think that their wait is now complicated or maybe extended because of something that happened in Tennessee that ain't got nothing to do with them. Rose, that that argument could work here. But folks, Jeff Hood is the spiritual advisor for Jamal Howard. And stay with us because we want to share at least a part of the excerpt from the op-ed he wrote. And wrote, it's a very big question. If you were the spiritual advisor to Jamal Howard, would you tell him what happened to Krista Pike? Would you want that on his mind going into the death chamber? Not sure what I would do, not sure what you would do. And in fact, his spiritual advisor wasn't sure what to do either.
00:12:46
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Amy and TJ.
00:12:48
Speaker 2: Just before the break, we were talking about Jeff Hood, the spiritual advisor to Jamal Howard. And yes, he just wrote an opinion piece that was released. This was a conversation he just had with Howard, and he decided to explain to Jamal what happened to Krista Pike. He felt like ultimately it was his duty to explain it to him, and he was actually questioning whether or not Jamal would even have the mental capacity to understand who Krista Pike was, how or why things went wrong, and how that could apply to him.
00:13:23
Speaker 3: He did not know who Krista Pike was, by the way.
00:13:26
Speaker 2: So he had to explain the whole situation to him. So once he did, this is what he describes. Jamal's silence after I talked about Pike felt like an eternity. I wondered whether I should have even brought it up. Jamal has so many mental health problems and intellectual disabilities.
00:13:45
Speaker 3: I didn't know if he understood what I'd said.
00:13:49
Speaker 2: Then it became clear how unclear everything was for him. Not only had Jamal not heard about Pike, but he also didn't understand how executions were carried out. When I told him that the drugs didn't work in her case, he didn't understand what drugs I was talking about. To him, nothing made sense. Suddenly, both of us fell silent. Finally, Jamal said, I guess if the drugs don't work, they'll just shoot me in the head.
00:14:23
Speaker 1: The executions are just so awful. They're just so awful. I don't know, babe, where does mercy suppose to lie? This is just awful stuff. End of life, death, babe, planning of death. I don't know. And where he, to tell him that did he have to It was the right thing to do.
00:14:48
Speaker 2: He's still questioning it because he said now he worries that Jamal is going to bed tonight.
00:14:52
Speaker 1: Doesn't have an understanding.
00:14:53
Speaker 3: Thinking he's going to be shot in the head. He said he was.
00:14:56
Speaker 2: And that just actually spoke to Jamal's mental state, if that's what he's describing. I also thought there were some kind words he offered for all the victims that are involved in a situation like this. And so... The spiritual advisor, Hood, went on to say he was 20 when he killed Vicki Swartout during a robbery in Hardin County.
00:15:19
Speaker 3: Vicki should be alive.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Her family has carried a loss that no execution can repair. I will not ask them to make room for my grief about what is happening now. A woman is dead who should still be here. A man I deeply care about is waiting for the state to kill him. Both things are true, and those truths do not cancel.
00:15:41
Speaker 3: Out each other.
00:15:42
Speaker 2: They sit beside each other like two people left alone in a room after everyone else has gone.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: That hit me. I thought that was really well said.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: We don't, babe. There's not enough. I don't know. We're supposed to be better. There's not enough humanity. I guess, Robes, sometimes it's so hard to find grace and mercy and humanity when you hear about some of these horrific things that have taken place and what these families still carry after decades. This is so hard, baby. But another, yeah, this one certainly is different. These nights never feel good. But tomorrow night, Robes, we have another ceremonious execution of someone. A ceremony that we just went through a week ago, and the outcome has gutted us. It's torn us apart. Rose, I don't know. I'm leaning. The more and more we talk about these things, we talk about how we're not big fans of the death penalty, but my God, the more we cover these things, I am getting so solidly in that camp that we got to get rid of this thing.
00:16:51
Speaker 2: Right. And I think You know, and tomorrow's execution is different because it is the first one since Krista Pikes. And I thought it was interesting because Jeff Hood put it like this.
00:17:05
Speaker 3: He said that Jamal made.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: Him hear the distance between being told you will die and having to imagine what dying will feel like if the first attempt does not work.
00:17:16
Speaker 3: All that doesn't stop anything. Wednesday is coming.
00:17:21
Speaker 2: And that's what we all have to live with at the very, no matter what individually any of us feel about this. This is the law and state by state. This is what voters have chosen as a viable option for juries and how they feel justice is exacted correctly. And that has to be honored, I guess, because it is the rule of law.
00:17:46
Speaker 1: But things change. Attitudes change. Circumstances change. And maybe methods need to change. What do we... There are actually, I think if the count is right, 14 states that use the one drug, pentobarbital, as their main method. Rose, what do we have? We have hanging, firing squad... Electric chair, lethal injection in this country.
00:18:12
Speaker 3: And nitrogen gas, is that still available?
00:18:14
Speaker 1: That one they put a hold on in Alabama. They're the ones that have been using it left and right, right? So that has been stopped. They've been deemed legal, humane, not cruel and unusual. Do we have to take lethal injection off the table?
00:18:30
Speaker 2: I mean, it has caused a whole lot of problems and has been the most unreliable form of execution by leaps and bounds.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: But the most used since 1976. I think it's 89%.
00:18:43
Speaker 3: You want to know why I think we do it? Because it makes us feel better.
00:18:46
Speaker 1: Feel better. Put a needle in them.
00:18:47
Speaker 3: Because it's really.
00:18:48
Speaker 2: Hard to ask someone to witness, and you need two members of the media, to witness someone being shot.
00:18:58
Speaker 3: I witnessed a lethal injection.
00:19:00
Speaker 2: When I was 23 years old working as a crime reporter in South Carolina, and that was hard.
00:19:05
Speaker 3: That was tough enough. And I said yes, but I was nervous.
00:19:09
Speaker 2: If you had asked me to witness someone being shot, I absolutely would have said no.
00:19:14
Speaker 1: There's a very small percentage of people, right? You see videos, but it's supposed to be disturbing, no matter how it happens, to watch somebody die. It should. What would change in this country today? if we publicized our executions? Like people would come out publicly, come to the gallows, right? And watch people on the town square be executed. What would change in this country? Say, tonight at 6 o'clock, join us live for this execution. Now, would that be deemed? Oh, God, that's horrible.
00:19:53
Speaker 2: I don't think you should turn your eyes away from something you support.
00:19:56
Speaker 1: This is what we do. This is what we're doing. And it's, Robes, we should see what's happening.
00:20:03
Speaker 2: If you can't look at it, if you can't think about it, if you can't read about it, if you don't want to know about it, you probably should rethink whether or not you support it.
00:20:12
Speaker 1: It's just, oh, and this family, Robes, they're going to be there, right? This family is fully in support of this execution. Yes. I defer. That's all I say. I just always defer. This is just horrible stuff. A close eye to keep on this one tomorrow. Robes and for different reasons. Nobody's talking about his innocence. Nobody's trying to say, hey, test this DNA. This one's different and it feels different. Robes. But this is one. Stay close to the feed because we do expect certainly updates how big they will be tomorrow on the day of the execution. We do not know, but we appreciate you going along with us. As always, I'm TJ on behalf of my dear Amy Robach. We'll talk to you all soon.
Speaker 1: Hey there, folks. It is Tuesday, October 6th. And tomorrow, one week after the botched execution of Krista Pike, there will be another execution. Yes, it's in another state, but they'll be using the exact same method that was used on Krista Pike. And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. Different state. Sure. Robes. Texas.
00:00:27
Speaker 2: Texas.
00:00:28
Speaker 1: They're certainly hoping for a different outcome, but, Rose, we are all going to be watching this one a lot differently and a lot more closely.
00:00:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a big deal.
00:00:36
Speaker 2: This is the first execution since the Krista Pike execution, and, yes, using the exact same single-dose method. You can only imagine every person who will be involved in being a part of that process from the... Guards to the medical professionals to the death row inmate himself and the people there gathered to witness. Everyone is going to be thinking of Krista Pike.
00:01:07
Speaker 1: What are the chances, Robes? Exactly one week later, all eyes on another death chamber. One dose pentobarbital. So yes, we're talking about a different state, but Robes? What are they doing differently, would you imagine, to prep? now that that's happened last week?
00:01:28
Speaker 2: I would imagine they'd be practicing. They'd be looking for veins. If you're the person who is responsible for correctly inserting the IV into a vein to get that poison straight into the bloodstream, I would be practicing. I would make sure that I could do it with my eyes closed, half asleep.
00:01:50
Speaker 1: Rose, what do you do there? Are they going to have even a tougher time finding people to do this. I know, Texas is a different state. They do it more frequently, and maybe that's not the issue. But Robes, I cannot believe a week later, she is clinging to life as we speak. By the way, yes, Krista Pike is still alive, the last we heard, on a ventilator, but still hasn't woken up Robes in a week since they put a needle in her arm, just like they're going to put a needle in a guy's arm tomorrow night and feed him pentobarbital. That is the plan. Robes, We just heard, folks, we'll tell you who this is. And yes, there are people you would expect. There are people against the death penalty who are fighting to stop the execution. His lawyers are fighting to stop it because they actually say he has a mental illness. He has some disabilities that he shouldn't be executed. But now, Robes, they have a new thing they're going to go argue. Yo, we need to know more about these drugs before the execution. They're now asking for everybody to pump the brakes. And doesn't that make sense?
00:02:52
Speaker 3: Of course.
00:02:53
Speaker 2: Look, we know that any defense team, any attorney team that is representing a death row inmate about to be executed, they will try anything.
00:03:03
Speaker 3: They will try any argument.
00:03:05
Speaker 2: They will ask any court to get a stay, to get a pause, to delay, to kick the can. But now this is a new reason. This wasn't even something to talk about a week ago, two weeks ago. But now, heck yeah, they're going to try and push for answers immediately. we want the expiration date on the drugs. We want to know which pharmaceutical company provided this drug. We want to know who's administering this drug, what their experience is, all of that.
00:03:33
Speaker 3: Now, I would say the only maybe, I.
00:03:38
Speaker 2: Would say the confidence maybe that these Texas officials might have is their last execution was not that long ago.
00:03:44
Speaker 3: It was just September 23rd.
00:03:46
Speaker 2: It was Krishan Ramey He was put to death by that single dose of pentobarbital, and there were not any complications. So they just did this basically two weeks ago.
00:03:59
Speaker 1: And we should note as well, Rose, what we saw with Krista Pike is unprecedented. We have seen issues over the years, right, with finding a vein and whatnot. We just haven't seen anything like that. We've seen them have trouble finding a vein, and then they administer it after they know they have it incorrectly. But robes have never seen anybody think they have it incorrectly and still administer the drug, and they're completely wrong. So what was the guy before Krista Pike even? They said he had a dozenâ Carruthers. Carruthers, right? He was the guy they had to stop his. They had a dozen needle marks in him. But they didn't administer the drug because they didn't find the right vein. Why different with Krista, I wonder?
00:04:38
Speaker 2: They didn't realize that either the vein had burst or that the... I don't know how they didn't understand what was happening with her arms. And the pain she was referencing is a really common thing to happen that usually you know immediately, okay, we got to take the needle out. We got to find a new vein, a different arm, maybe going through the leg, the groin area, the hand. There are plenty of places you can put a needle. And if you see that the one you've placed... isn't incorrectly or that the actual, normally it's medicine, but in this case, the poison, the chemicals, clearly the arm does start to swell.
00:05:16
Speaker 3: Physically, you can see it.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: So I don't know. Is it too late at that point? Can you just pull it out?
00:05:20
Speaker 3: You can pull it out and start with another dose.
00:05:23
Speaker 2: I mean, if they had the second dose protocol, so they knew they were going to be able to take a second shot at it.
00:05:28
Speaker 3: I don't know why. I don't know how that happened.
00:05:31
Speaker 2: And obviously that's what Tennessee is investigating right now.
00:05:43
Speaker 1: And so now Texas is about to use the same method tomorrow on Jamal Howard. This is a man who was a very young man, Robes, when he was convicted back in 2000. He's only 46 years old now. He has spent 26 years in prison. Only 20 years of his life was spent free. That's just to see these cases sometimes. And yes, these are very young men when they commit these crimes. But he's 46 now. Robes, his crime, it seemed... This is one of those petty, unnecessary, pointless, like, are you kidding me crimes that a 42-year-old woman lost her life over 100 bucks, essentially, and some cigarettes.
00:06:23
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what it was. Yes, this crime took place.
00:06:26
Speaker 2: It was May 12, 2000, and Vicki Swartout was her name, 42 years old, as you mentioned. She was working at a convenience store when Jamal Howard, who was.
00:06:37
Speaker 3: 20 years old at the time....
00:06:41
Speaker 2: Shot her and, yes, stole $ 114 and a carton of cigarettes before running out. There was surveillance video, and it captured the entire thing.
00:06:53
Speaker 3: It was him.
00:06:54
Speaker 2: There is no question about his guilt, but there were questions about.
00:06:58
Speaker 3: His mental competency.
00:07:00
Speaker 2: At the time of the crime, throughout his incarceration, and, of course, now, That is the argument that his lawyers had been making to try and prevent his execution, but that argument had not borne fruit. In fact, he lost every single one of his legal arguments in the appellate process with that argument that his attorneys were making.
00:07:22
Speaker 1: Robes, he is pretty much out of chances at this point.
00:07:25
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:07:26
Speaker 1: The Supreme Court, I think, is the only court that hasn't chimed in, but we have seen how that's been going. Now, Robes, the argument they have before the court... I'm not sure if it includes the Pike stuff or not. I'm not sure if it includes... And they would have only submitted it, I mean, really, in recent days or even hours, so they would have had that information. I wonder if they... I don't know if they've stuck that argument in there.
00:07:50
Speaker 3: I honestly don't know. I would imagine they would have.
00:07:51
Speaker 2: Don't they usually just try to put every single argument they can think of? And yes, of course, the mental competency is a big part of that, but I would think they'd have to ask for some sort of... delay at the very least to try and evaluate the way Texas is planning or to proceed with its execution given the events of Frista Pike?
00:08:13
Speaker 1: The other option they do have, and it works, the law a little different there in Texas, the governor can offer a reprieve. He can't just commute the sentence on his own right now. We need the parole board, but he can stop the execution for 30 days. Give 30 days to just take a peek at this thing and figure this out. That's what they're now asking Governor Abbott for, who in 50 executions, they say, has only stopped one, I believe. So not the best hope there. But still, this is a unique situation. I guess maybe, Rob, their best chance might be what happened last week. Their best chance might be, look at what you all are doing to people. You want to do this to our guy without looking into this more?
00:08:54
Speaker 2: But I feel like the state of Texas could also say, look at our last six executions of the year, and they've all gone on without a hitch. Okay.
00:09:02
Speaker 1: This ain't Tennessee.
00:09:04
Speaker 3: Exactly.
00:09:04
Speaker 1: Is the response.
00:09:05
Speaker 3: We're Texas.
00:09:06
Speaker 1: That they could possibly give. One thing we want to note, we mentioned the young lady, the 42-year-old who was killed. And let's take a minute here, and we're going to give you actually two things. One that we just came across a short time ago, the spiritual advisor for Jamal Howard. He wrote essentially an op-ed, I guess you could say, Robes, for an outlet in Texas, and he said some pretty remarkable things in particular about his debate about whether or not he wanted to tell Jamal Howard about what happened to Krista Pike. You don't want to miss that, so stick around for that. We will let you hear that. It is some powerful stuff, but Robes, it's always of note on these things when so much emphasis is put on the death row inmate, Mercy for that person and trying to save that person's life. Always got to hear from the family of the victim.
00:10:02
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:10:03
Speaker 2: And just before we decided to sit down and record this episode, Vicki Swartout's family released a statement on the eve of the execution for that very reason.
00:10:15
Speaker 3: They want people to remember who Vicki Swartout was. Here is how it reads.
00:10:20
Speaker 2: Vicki Swardout was an amazing person with a heart bigger than anyone you could imagine. She was hardworking, caring, loving, and the kind of person who would do anything for anyone. If she had something you needed, she would give it to you without thinking twice. That was simply the kind of person Vicki was. She was also a devoted daughter, sister, and aunt. Vicki moved in with her mother to help raise her great niece and nephew. She was someone they could depend on, someone who was always there when she was needed. Vicki's life was taken far too soon, leaving behind a family who loved her and a lifetime of memories that can never be replaced. She may be gone, but she will never be forgotten. There was a family member who added and didn't want to be named, so they were anonymous, but added that Given the crime, it was so... I don't even want to use the word ironic, but just so unnecessary to the point where they said this was literally a woman who would have given him anything. She said if she saw Jamal Howard desperate, needing money, she would have said, what do you need? And she would have given it to him. He didn't need to shoot her. She was the very person who would have just walked away from the counter and said, take what you want. And just to have her be the person... to be murdered by a violent act. They just said it was just the most unthinkable thing because she was just such a giving person.
00:11:44
Speaker 1: So here they are, Rose. They've been waiting 26 years for justice and to think that their wait is now complicated or maybe extended because of something that happened in Tennessee that ain't got nothing to do with them. Rose, that that argument could work here. But folks, Jeff Hood is the spiritual advisor for Jamal Howard. And stay with us because we want to share at least a part of the excerpt from the op-ed he wrote. And wrote, it's a very big question. If you were the spiritual advisor to Jamal Howard, would you tell him what happened to Krista Pike? Would you want that on his mind going into the death chamber? Not sure what I would do, not sure what you would do. And in fact, his spiritual advisor wasn't sure what to do either.
00:12:46
Speaker 3: Welcome back to Amy and TJ.
00:12:48
Speaker 2: Just before the break, we were talking about Jeff Hood, the spiritual advisor to Jamal Howard. And yes, he just wrote an opinion piece that was released. This was a conversation he just had with Howard, and he decided to explain to Jamal what happened to Krista Pike. He felt like ultimately it was his duty to explain it to him, and he was actually questioning whether or not Jamal would even have the mental capacity to understand who Krista Pike was, how or why things went wrong, and how that could apply to him.
00:13:23
Speaker 3: He did not know who Krista Pike was, by the way.
00:13:26
Speaker 2: So he had to explain the whole situation to him. So once he did, this is what he describes. Jamal's silence after I talked about Pike felt like an eternity. I wondered whether I should have even brought it up. Jamal has so many mental health problems and intellectual disabilities.
00:13:45
Speaker 3: I didn't know if he understood what I'd said.
00:13:49
Speaker 2: Then it became clear how unclear everything was for him. Not only had Jamal not heard about Pike, but he also didn't understand how executions were carried out. When I told him that the drugs didn't work in her case, he didn't understand what drugs I was talking about. To him, nothing made sense. Suddenly, both of us fell silent. Finally, Jamal said, I guess if the drugs don't work, they'll just shoot me in the head.
00:14:23
Speaker 1: The executions are just so awful. They're just so awful. I don't know, babe, where does mercy suppose to lie? This is just awful stuff. End of life, death, babe, planning of death. I don't know. And where he, to tell him that did he have to It was the right thing to do.
00:14:48
Speaker 2: He's still questioning it because he said now he worries that Jamal is going to bed tonight.
00:14:52
Speaker 1: Doesn't have an understanding.
00:14:53
Speaker 3: Thinking he's going to be shot in the head. He said he was.
00:14:56
Speaker 2: And that just actually spoke to Jamal's mental state, if that's what he's describing. I also thought there were some kind words he offered for all the victims that are involved in a situation like this. And so... The spiritual advisor, Hood, went on to say he was 20 when he killed Vicki Swartout during a robbery in Hardin County.
00:15:19
Speaker 3: Vicki should be alive.
00:15:21
Speaker 2: Her family has carried a loss that no execution can repair. I will not ask them to make room for my grief about what is happening now. A woman is dead who should still be here. A man I deeply care about is waiting for the state to kill him. Both things are true, and those truths do not cancel.
00:15:41
Speaker 3: Out each other.
00:15:42
Speaker 2: They sit beside each other like two people left alone in a room after everyone else has gone.
00:15:50
Speaker 3: That hit me. I thought that was really well said.
00:15:54
Speaker 1: We don't, babe. There's not enough. I don't know. We're supposed to be better. There's not enough humanity. I guess, Robes, sometimes it's so hard to find grace and mercy and humanity when you hear about some of these horrific things that have taken place and what these families still carry after decades. This is so hard, baby. But another, yeah, this one certainly is different. These nights never feel good. But tomorrow night, Robes, we have another ceremonious execution of someone. A ceremony that we just went through a week ago, and the outcome has gutted us. It's torn us apart. Rose, I don't know. I'm leaning. The more and more we talk about these things, we talk about how we're not big fans of the death penalty, but my God, the more we cover these things, I am getting so solidly in that camp that we got to get rid of this thing.
00:16:51
Speaker 2: Right. And I think You know, and tomorrow's execution is different because it is the first one since Krista Pikes. And I thought it was interesting because Jeff Hood put it like this.
00:17:05
Speaker 3: He said that Jamal made.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: Him hear the distance between being told you will die and having to imagine what dying will feel like if the first attempt does not work.
00:17:16
Speaker 3: All that doesn't stop anything. Wednesday is coming.
00:17:21
Speaker 2: And that's what we all have to live with at the very, no matter what individually any of us feel about this. This is the law and state by state. This is what voters have chosen as a viable option for juries and how they feel justice is exacted correctly. And that has to be honored, I guess, because it is the rule of law.
00:17:46
Speaker 1: But things change. Attitudes change. Circumstances change. And maybe methods need to change. What do we... There are actually, I think if the count is right, 14 states that use the one drug, pentobarbital, as their main method. Rose, what do we have? We have hanging, firing squad... Electric chair, lethal injection in this country.
00:18:12
Speaker 3: And nitrogen gas, is that still available?
00:18:14
Speaker 1: That one they put a hold on in Alabama. They're the ones that have been using it left and right, right? So that has been stopped. They've been deemed legal, humane, not cruel and unusual. Do we have to take lethal injection off the table?
00:18:30
Speaker 2: I mean, it has caused a whole lot of problems and has been the most unreliable form of execution by leaps and bounds.
00:18:37
Speaker 1: But the most used since 1976. I think it's 89%.
00:18:43
Speaker 3: You want to know why I think we do it? Because it makes us feel better.
00:18:46
Speaker 1: Feel better. Put a needle in them.
00:18:47
Speaker 3: Because it's really.
00:18:48
Speaker 2: Hard to ask someone to witness, and you need two members of the media, to witness someone being shot.
00:18:58
Speaker 3: I witnessed a lethal injection.
00:19:00
Speaker 2: When I was 23 years old working as a crime reporter in South Carolina, and that was hard.
00:19:05
Speaker 3: That was tough enough. And I said yes, but I was nervous.
00:19:09
Speaker 2: If you had asked me to witness someone being shot, I absolutely would have said no.
00:19:14
Speaker 1: There's a very small percentage of people, right? You see videos, but it's supposed to be disturbing, no matter how it happens, to watch somebody die. It should. What would change in this country today? if we publicized our executions? Like people would come out publicly, come to the gallows, right? And watch people on the town square be executed. What would change in this country? Say, tonight at 6 o'clock, join us live for this execution. Now, would that be deemed? Oh, God, that's horrible.
00:19:53
Speaker 2: I don't think you should turn your eyes away from something you support.
00:19:56
Speaker 1: This is what we do. This is what we're doing. And it's, Robes, we should see what's happening.
00:20:03
Speaker 2: If you can't look at it, if you can't think about it, if you can't read about it, if you don't want to know about it, you probably should rethink whether or not you support it.
00:20:12
Speaker 1: It's just, oh, and this family, Robes, they're going to be there, right? This family is fully in support of this execution. Yes. I defer. That's all I say. I just always defer. This is just horrible stuff. A close eye to keep on this one tomorrow. Robes and for different reasons. Nobody's talking about his innocence. Nobody's trying to say, hey, test this DNA. This one's different and it feels different. Robes. But this is one. Stay close to the feed because we do expect certainly updates how big they will be tomorrow on the day of the execution. We do not know, but we appreciate you going along with us. As always, I'm TJ on behalf of my dear Amy Robach. We'll talk to you all soon.