Nov. 17, 2025

The Power of Conscious Conversation with Chuck Wisner

The Power of Conscious Conversation with Chuck Wisner
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In this enlightening episode, Dr. Doug speaks with Chuck Wisner, author of The Art of Conscious Conversations. They explore how storytelling, collaboration, creativity, and commitment shape the way we relate—with others and ourselves. Chuck shares tools to break old patterns, navigate ego, and create meaningful dialogue in every part of life. A must-listen for anyone seeking deeper connection and awareness.
Https://ChuckWisner.com

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This program is designed to provide general information with regards

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to the subject matters covered. This information is given with

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the understanding that neither the hosts, guests, sponsors, or station

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are engaged in rendering any specific and personal medical, financial,

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legal counseling, professional service, or any advice.

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You should seek the services.

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Of competent professionals before applying or trying any suggested ideas.

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At the end of the day, it's not about what

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you have or even what you've accomplished. It's about what

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you've done with those accomplishments. It's about who you've lifted up,

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who you've made better. It's about what you've given back.

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Denzel Washington, Welcome to Inspire Vision. Our sole purpose is

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to elevate the lives of others and to inspire you

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to do the same.

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Suck Welcome to the show.

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Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

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Well, it's good to have you and folks, Just so

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you know, we had a chat what was it about

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a month ago? And about a month ago, Yeah, and

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I had some issues on my end with the sound system,

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and it's like we couldn't do it, and so we

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have rescheduled, and I'm really excited about this because our

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conversation before was so enlightening, and I really appreciate this

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book that you've written and the concepts that you've come

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up with. So what I'd love for you to do

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is share with the audience who you are and what

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motivated you to write the book The art of conscious communication.

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The art of conscious conversations, their conversation. I'm sorry, yeah, yeah,

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Well who am I? That's a big question.

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I know we all ask ourselves that, don't we?

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Yeah? Who am I? Anyway, well, I'd say writing the

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book was my fourth career. I was originally a musician.

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I was an architect in Boston for twenty years, and

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I changed careers when I started studying language and leadership,

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and so that's sort of how that all evolved and

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interesting just to underscore that is, I never was rejecting

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the previous profession. I was more fell in love with

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a new one and I couldn't help myself. So I

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ended up doing leadership coaching and advising for the last

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twenty five thirty years at large corporations with the executives

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and their teams. And then the book came about because

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some of my clients said, I love all the work

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we're doing, but I don't know how to connect the dots,

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and is there a book I can read? And I

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realized there was a lot of different books, but the

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work we were doing was a compilation of all those.

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So I decided, maybe I can put all the pieces together.

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And that's what inspired me to write the book.

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All right, and you've actually put four pieces together? What

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are they?

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Yeah? Yeah, so the thing that connects all those different pieces?

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One client says, how do I connect the dots? Right?

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That stuck with me. And then I realized when I

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was studying the ontology of language that there's four types

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basic types of conversations that we're in all the time,

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but we're not aware of those those and those four

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conversations storytelling, collaboration, creativity, and commitment. Conversations are the structure

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that hold all the different tools and practices that help

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us be better in our communications.

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Okay, and you know, as we look at what the

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problem is, and I want to go into that.

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First of all, what is the issue?

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What is the problem that you have experienced three or

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many years of working with companies and individuals that you

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found need this type of help. What are the issues

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that come up with people in general.

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So in general, I think we are in conversations all

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the time. It's the one human tool that we have

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across the world globe, you know, conversations. And yet we

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adopt our conversational patterns unconsciously through our culture, our family.

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So we learn to talk, we mimic our families, we

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mimic our our cultures, and then we learn through experience.

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So we're in conversation often on autopilot without understanding them

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as deeply as we can. And so when we're on autopilot,

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we we are playing out our pattern but not always

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to our benefit or to to the creativity of a

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to the creative to the to the generation of a good,

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good conversation. So in some ways it's like being we

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are in conversations, but we don't really know how they work.

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And so my book is trying to say, let's take

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it apart a little bit, let's look deeply into it,

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how they how they work, and what we can learn

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from each kind of conversation.

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Well, and you know, it's interesting as we look at

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what's going on in the country in the US right now,

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those conversations are not working.

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Real well, not at all if I if I could

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stick my book under the pillow of every politician, I would, Well.

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That would be nice.

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But even as we look at divorce rates, as we

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look at challenges that parents have with their children and

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vice versa, as we look at all of that, recognizing

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that conversation and I said communication, But it's conversation that

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creates that communication that.

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Becomes the major issue.

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And you know, and we'll get into this maybe a

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little bit later if we have time, But I was

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thinking today as I was re listening to a little

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bit of our conversation before, is that even the conversation

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we have with ourselves, yes, in our lives. And so

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as we go through this, you know, we'll talk about

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those on different levels. But at this point in time,

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let's go have you explain Number one, what are the

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individual areas you talked about, storytelling, collaborative, creative commitment.

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Let's go through each one of those to begin with. Also,

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at the.

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Beginning of your book, you talked about ego and I'm

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trying to figure out how that fits in. So if

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you can fit that in and let me know where

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that fits in, I want to get into that conversation too.

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Okay, great, so I'll do a brief explanation of each conversation, okay,

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And if you want to do a dive into each one,

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just interrupt me. Or if you have a question about

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each one, just interrupt me.

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We'll do it after you've explained them all.

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Okay, I'll do it. I'll do a brief explanation. So

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storytelling is primary. I say that because that's how we live,

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lot that's how humans live. We live through stories. And

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Uval Harari's book Sapiens does a great history lesson in

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how this evolved, So that law is a story and

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money is a story, but they stick because we all

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agree on them. We read that the dollar is worth x.

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But anyway, So in our personal lives, we also have stories.

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We have stories about ourselves and we have stories about

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other people. Some are helpful, some are harmful. The helpful

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ones we connect with people, we love people, we have

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good relationships. The harmful ones hold us back individually because

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we aren't living up to our potential or they do

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damage to a relationship. So exploring our stories and the

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storytelling conversation is primary because it helps us do all

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the other conversations better. Now ego comes in because the

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ego loves our stories, loves our beliefs and the package

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that we have about how we see the world, and

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convinces us that, yeah, you're right, you know you're right,

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and you should fight for your position. However, it sort

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of is a constricting element. Ego sort of gets us

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to be tight and hold on to our perspectives and beliefs,

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and so we aren't as open as we could be,

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open mind, open heart. But when we begin to look

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at them and we increase our awareness, stories are like

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put us in the ego is like putting as foggy

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and gets us in the fog. We identify with our

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positions and we can't see very much. When we become

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aware of our stories, that's like bringing that's like bringing

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light to the situation. So now we can say, oh,

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I have that a story I adopted from my dad,

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or I'm behaving that way because that's what I was

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taught to do, and so then we have a chance

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to change. So storytelling is very personal and it's very profound.

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Now as we do that work, the next conversation, which

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is relational, the collaborative conversation, is the conversation between you

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and I, or meet and five people or meeting ten

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people in a meeting that's relational because everybody now is

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bringing their story to the table. And so we've all

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been in meetings where everyone has their perspective and there's

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a lot of disagreement around the room. But the real

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art of collaboration conversations is our ability to advocate with

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an open hand instead of a fist, and to listen

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in a way that we can really absorb other people,

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ask good questions and learn from one another. So the tools,

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the basic tools there are open advocacy and open inquiry

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versus closed advocacy and close inquiry. So when we do

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that collaborative thing, we learn from each other and we

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get smart together instead of getting domb together. And it's

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just another way of sort of opening our minds, and

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it takes humility and it takes vulnerability. We do that

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conversation well, we are in a creative conversation where we

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generate ideas, ideas that bubble up out of an open

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space conversation, a good collaborative conversation. We all had that

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experience in a meeting or with someone where we go

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we're talking and all of a sudden, because we're sharing ideas,

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An idea bubbles up and says, oh, I never thought

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of it that way, we could do X. And that

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came out of the collaborative conversation because we were both

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open and ideas are available to us. So the creative

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conversation is about relational, but it's also personal in that

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do we exercise our right brain? Do we exercise our

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creative self? Do we allow ourselves to dream about possibilities

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or to wonder what ifs? So that's an interesting conversation

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because it's relational and personal. And then if we do

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all those conversations well, ideally we go into a commitmic conversation,

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which is really the action conversation is how we coordinate

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getting things done with other people. So it's very relevant

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to our everyday life from the kitchen sync to the boardroom.

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Yet that is a complex conversation that we don't understand

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and we tend to do it in a sloppy manner.

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So we make promises we shouldn't make, We make promises

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we can't keep, We make promises that break, and then

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that that is a that is a precursor to to

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losing losing trust in people. So that action conversation we

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love it, but we don't do it well well.

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And I love how how you've got step by step,

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and I think it's fascinating that you know, if you

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haven't been able to accomplish step number one, which is

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a storytelling, you're not able to move into step number two.

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And do you have any specific examples that you could

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share with the audience. I know I have a couple,

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but let's see if you do where people were experiencing

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that challenge of storytelling and what the effect was on

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that relationship.

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I have a personal story that I'm willing to share

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that's in the book, actually, and that is what I

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grew up with a step grandfather who was a bit

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of a redneck, which means super conservative and racist. But

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I had three sisters. I was a younger son. Later

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I had a brother. But so in my growing up,

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when I showed emotions or cried like my sisters, or

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I didn't want to shoot the deer, or I didn't

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want to do something that was in his eyes, manly,

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he constantly told me I wasn't a big enough man. So,

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as a young boy with an authority figure telling me that,

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I unconsciously adopted that story. That story became a really

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internal dialogue I had with myself that was very harmful

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because no matter what I was doing, and I had

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some great successes, but no matter what I was doing,

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that was always nagging in the back of my mind.

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I was not good enough. You're not big enough, you're

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not man enough, you're not strong enough. And it wasn't

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until I busted that story by investigating facts and saying,

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wait a minute, that's his idea what man is, But

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I don't need to I don't know. I no longer

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need to adopt his idea. Well, and that was that

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was life changing.

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How did that affect your communication and your conversations with

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other people that very astue that I'm not good enough?

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Yeah, well, it lifts a it lifts sort of an

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internal filter that that always has you feeling a little

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less confident or a lot less confident, or it lifts

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some some some barrier that allows you to be totally

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who you are and be comfortable in your own skin.

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And then you can be open in dialogue and open

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in conversation and more vulnerable because you're confident in your skin.

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So it's sort of like a lifting a veil of suppression. Well,

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that makes sense.

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It does.

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And you know, as you were talking about ego, one

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of the things that came to my mind is because

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I think we've all experienced wonder where or another I'm

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not good enough, We've all kind of developed that subconscious

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concept for whatever reason and oftentimes, and this is just

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the thought that I had. How often is it that

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that ego then is saying, I'm going to prove that

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I am right.

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I'm going to prove that I am good enough.

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And therefore that ego gets in our way because we're

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not willing to be able to move that ego to

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the side and listen.

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That's right, yes, right exactly. So when we have we

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had we grow up learning to advocate and have strong

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positions and have answers and be smart and all that jazz.

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So we have these we have these ideas about the

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world and beliefs and perspectives, but we tend to get

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identified with them. And that's what our ego does. It

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keeps us identified with that and until we can sort

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of step out like with Like I said, awareness is

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like the separation. Now I can be out here, I think,

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be a witness to my thinking, and then from there

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I can say I can change that. But if we're

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identified with it, we're going to defend it to death.

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And our ego is there to us help us do that.

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So they are wearing this sort of brings the light

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and brings the opportunity to go, wait a minute, I

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don't have to do that. I can do this well.

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In one of the stories I want to share, and

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I shared this with you before, but you know, I

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have a neighbor that dropped out where I was back

267
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in the US for a week or so, and I

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had a neighbor drop by and say, hey, how are

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you doing? And we started talking and just you know,

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really a friendly guy, good.

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Friend, and so forth.

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And we were chatting a little bit and you know,

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and I said, hey, I didn't see you at church

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last Sunday.

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He goes, yeah, I'm going okay. I said, so what's up?

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He says, well, you know, the people there just I'm

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not comfortable with the way they think a lot of them.

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And I'm going really, and I started to get an

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idea of what was all about, but it.

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Was like, so tell me about it.

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And so he started to share with me that his

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particular political thinking and beliefs were such that was very

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opposite of the majority of the people that we both

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knew at church. And as I was asking him, and

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you know, I was trying to, you know, at least

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get into the collaborative part. But as I was asking

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him about that, you know, it's like, well, this is

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what's happening, and this is what's happening, and I'm.

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Going, wha, wha, wait a minute, what about this? And

290
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what about that? Oh, that's just fake news.

291
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And then he just went on and on and on

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they mean a little bit more towards the left.

293
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And I thought to myself, how sad is.

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It that we can allow this ego, we can allow

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this situation to occur to where it literally affects our

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life in a negative way. It starts to eliminate friendships

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potentially that could be so valuable, and in some ways

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it literally changes how we live our lives.

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Absolutely, yeah, absolutely it. Yeah, that identity, that that clenching,

300
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you know, to our perspective or clenching to our identity.

301
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Then we can't be open, we can't listen, we can't absorb.

302
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And and that's that's that's part of the work, and

303
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that's why, that's why it takes a. It takes courage

304
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to look like, do I really? You know, there's only

305
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three things in stories. There's facts, which is debatable these

306
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days according to some people. There's there's there's our emotions,

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and then there's our opinions. And so our emotions are

308
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a sign that we should be investigating our investigating our thinking.

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Because it was proof that said our emotions are a

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physical upheaval of our thinking. Yes, right, so we have

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we have an emotion, and then there's when we look

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at it, take the courage to look at it. We

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go underneath and go why am I angry? Why am

314
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I disappointed? Why am I frustrated? Well, there's a story there.

315
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They shouldn't treat me that way. We shouldn't do that.

316
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Women shouldn't behave that way. Men shouldn't treat women that way.

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We have these stories and I'm not saying they're good

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or bad, and I'm not saying get rid of them,

319
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but investigate them because as soon as we have a

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look at them, then we are free and we can

321
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change them or we can adopt right, So those are

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signs to look at our thinking. And then facts are facts,

323
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no matter what we've experienced. The last ten years or so.

324
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But opinions is where things get messy because our opinions

325
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are our beliefs and everything we've accumulated over time, and

326
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that we get cling to, that we get attached to well.

327
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And you know, as you talked about that, and you

328
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talked about awareness to use the word awareness and courage,

329
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and what comes to my mind is, and this has

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been a question in my mind for a long time,

331
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how do we help people or how do we as

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individuals help ourselves to really become aware?

333
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How do we get to the point where we.

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Can say to ourselves, you know what, I'm allowing the

335
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story to affect my relationship with others, I'm allowing a

336
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story to affect my conversation with others.

337
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How do we become aware?

338
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And how do we you know, and how do we

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develop the courage to go, Okay, I'm aware now I

340
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know I need to do something about it.

341
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Yeah.

342
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Yeah, So there's a couple of steps. One step is

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to the courage is to acknowledge that our story is

344
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not the truth, that our opinion is not the truth,

345
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because you know, the truth, the truth is a big, big,

346
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big subject, a whole podcast we could have on but

347
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you know, we can start saying, wait, man, my opinion

348
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isn't the truth. So what do I have? So I

349
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have my emotional feelings, I have my thinking, what are

350
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the facts? Let's ground ourselves in facts that you and

351
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I wouldn't couldn't disagree on, you know, And then we

352
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have the we have the willingness to say, okay, my

353
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opinion is made up with certain things. And in my book,

354
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I have these four quintessential questions, and that weave through

355
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each conversation. That's a great shortcut for investigating our own

356
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stories and for helping other people share theirs. And that

357
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the way I like to think of it is that

358
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we come into a conversation, we're attached to our position

359
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like a fift and with these four questions, we can

360
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slowly open our hand by the four questions, and we're

361
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in a conversation sharing the thinking under our opinion or

362
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under our judgment, rather than just clinging to the to

363
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the to the judgment and the opinion. So by that

364
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opening our hand, we are being humble. We're saying, my

365
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story is a story, but it's not the story. And

366
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so then we can invite other people to do the same.

367
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So I'm happy to show those four questions, and we're.

368
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Going to ask you what are those four questions we

369
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need to ask ourselves? And that's really at the basis

370
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of storytelling, isn't it at that level.

371
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That's right at that level if we if we look

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at our emotions and say, okay, there's a story under

373
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our emotions, and then we check the facts. The next

374
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thing to do is let's take apart our opinions and

375
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our judgments that have us sort of stock or have

376
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us feeling rigid. So the four questions to open our

377
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hand is first of every judgment we have, is there's

378
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a desire underneath something's happening that we didn't want to

379
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have happened, or we want something to happen that we

380
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have no control over in the future. Desires can be

381
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a good thing because they can create goals and they

382
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can inspire us to do things. But there are also

383
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traps when we have a desire that doesn't align with reality,

384
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and so there's always it's always there in the background,

385
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but we forget often to surface it and share it.

386
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So it's a powerful piece. I'll go through them quickly

387
00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:54.839
because they each could have more depth. The second is concerns,

388
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so every opinion we have, we have a concern that's

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based in time. What's going to happen next week? I

390
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:05.599
don't want tomorrow to feel like today. And concerns are

391
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:09.160
you know, we all have concerns, but often in difficult

392
00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:15.160
conversations attached to our position, we forget to share our concern.

393
00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:18.599
I'm concerned that X might happen if we don't do

394
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why and that that's a very different conversation because no

395
00:22:21.319 --> 00:22:23.039
one can sort of argue with your concern. They might

396
00:22:23.079 --> 00:22:25.160
have a different concern, but they can't argue with it.

397
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The third third question is questions of authority. Every relationship

398
00:22:31.480 --> 00:22:36.359
we're in with kids, with partners, with our colleagues, with

399
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:40.720
our bosses, with our community, we give different people's voices,

400
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:44.880
different levels of authority. These are power issues. It's very

401
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:49.519
obvious in hierarchies, because there's there's a man made hierarchy

402
00:22:49.559 --> 00:22:52.079
that says you have more power than you more stripes

403
00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:53.839
than I do, so I got to listen to what

404
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:56.559
you say. That's very obvious. It creates its own set

405
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:01.640
of problems inside corporations and inside leadership. Right, but every

406
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:07.200
conversation we have has power issues involved. Even with friends,

407
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.319
Some friends we give their if they think we aren't

408
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.920
doing something well, one person we might say, well, I'm

409
00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.279
interested to know why do you think that? Another friend

410
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.519
might say that, and we just brush them off because

411
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:23.200
we don't give their opinion much authority. So this always

412
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.200
playing out in every conversation. It's good to check and

413
00:23:26.519 --> 00:23:28.920
in with ourselves and say are there power issues at play?

414
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.480
And the last one is lovely because it's everywhere. Every

415
00:23:33.559 --> 00:23:35.640
judgment we have, every opinion we have, is based on

416
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:40.160
our standards. And standards is an umbrella word for our values,

417
00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:44.480
our morals, what's right, wrong, good, bad, ugly, pretty, all

418
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:47.720
those things. It's a packaged deal. That's that every judgment

419
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:52.440
you have, ask yourself, what standard am I holding that's

420
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:56.480
allowing me to say he's being an idiot or I'm

421
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not good enough, or she shouldn't behave that way? What

422
00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:04.079
is a standard underneath? We did not adopt most of

423
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:08.039
our standards. I I'm sorry. We did not consciously adopt

424
00:24:08.480 --> 00:24:12.960
our standards. We adopted them through our families and our cultures,

425
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:15.839
and so then we live them. But often they get

426
00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:18.240
us in trouble because we aren't willing to investigate them.

427
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:20.599
So those four things are a really good way to

428
00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:22.799
get what I'm doing is I'm saying, Okay, what are

429
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:25.400
my desires, what are my concerns? Are their powers? Use?

430
00:24:25.480 --> 00:24:27.400
What are my standards? I'm opening my hand and I'm

431
00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:31.079
sharing my thinking, which is why I say it can

432
00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:32.119
feel vulnerable.

433
00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.039
Well, and as you get to standards, you know, the

434
00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:39.359
thing that comes to my mind is AI And what

435
00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:42.279
happens now is that you know, if we're on Facebook,

436
00:24:42.319 --> 00:24:44.920
if we're on anything, or if we're listening to news,

437
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.680
we will tend to have reinforced to our mind the

438
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:52.720
very thing that we tend to listen to, and so

439
00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:56.119
we keep getting reinforced that Yeah, I'm right, I'm right,

440
00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.599
I'm right, this is the standard. This is a correct standard,

441
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.480
when in fact it may or may not be. As

442
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.799
you said, truth at this point in time had really

443
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:05.200
a tough thing to define.

444
00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:10.759
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So we should remember that. You know,

445
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.160
it's very easy because of our ears and how we've

446
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.359
learned to listen that we do not make a distinction

447
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:21.440
between facts and opinions or in your in the case

448
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:24.480
you brought up facts and standards. Our standards are just

449
00:25:24.519 --> 00:25:27.359
what's right or wrong. It doesn't mean that we necessarily

450
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:31.039
have the truth of the matter right, so investigate the

451
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.559
facts and they go, what is my standard? I often do,

452
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:38.759
not often, but I used to do some courses with

453
00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:43.160
women around communication and conversations.

454
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:47.759
With with with men, and when we would get to standards,

455
00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.559
I was if I was teaching about standards, I would

456
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:53.000
ask the room, so, how many of you if you

457
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:56.279
leave home and the beds aren't made you feel like

458
00:25:56.319 --> 00:25:58.640
you're not a good enough wife, not a good enough husband,

459
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:01.240
not a good enough wife, not a good mother, And

460
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:02.359
most hands would go up.

461
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:06.200
Yeah, and I'm saying, now, no judgment, however, all my

462
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:10.640
only question is where did where, from whom? How did

463
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.000
you adopt that standard? And then when they look, they go, oh, yeah, well,

464
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.359
as we just that's what my mother taught me. That's

465
00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:20.079
what my grandmother insisted on. That's whatever. So it's fine

466
00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:22.440
you can hold that standard, but if you hold it

467
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:25.599
as a standard and not the truth, you might have

468
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:27.640
to rush off to work one day and not may

469
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.599
have the beds made or not. The kids don't make

470
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:32.400
their beds, But you don't have to carry the burden

471
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:35.079
of believing that you're a bad mom because you did

472
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:36.000
that well.

473
00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:36.759
And that's true.

474
00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:39.480
And you know what's what's interesting to me is, you know,

475
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.559
we've spent a huge amount of time just on that

476
00:26:42.680 --> 00:26:49.240
basic storytelling because without overcoming that foundational issue, we cannot.

477
00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:50.079
Move into the collaborative.

478
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.960
And then as we move into the collaborative again, that's

479
00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:55.920
where the ego, at least in my mind, the ego

480
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:56.359
comes in.

481
00:26:56.480 --> 00:26:58.279
Because if you're if you're on.

482
00:26:58.240 --> 00:27:01.640
Opposite side of me, let's say, politically, and you want

483
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.880
to start sharing your issues, first thing my ego.

484
00:27:04.799 --> 00:27:06.599
Is going to do is, oh, no, no, you're wrong,

485
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.200
you're wrong, this is what's right.

486
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:09.839
You know that's right.

487
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:14.839
Whereas if we're both in that mentality of you know what,

488
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:18.200
I really want to have a conversation because I really

489
00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.680
want to maintain a friendship here, and it's like, so

490
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.279
I'm going to listen and I'm going to be open,

491
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:29.799
and I may ask some questions, but they're not antagonistic questions,

492
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:31.279
just helping me to understand.

493
00:27:31.319 --> 00:27:33.680
And is that where the collaboration comes in.

494
00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:38.240
Yeah. The two basic tools of a good collaborative conversation

495
00:27:38.440 --> 00:27:44.440
is open advocacy and open open inquiry. And but to

496
00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:49.440
understand that the opposite is we're trained to be clothed

497
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:55.559
advocates or or or or non productive at we're trained

498
00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:57.480
to sort of defend our position whole and have a

499
00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:01.799
have a have you know defense that in fact, we're

500
00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:04.640
trained that way from school on to have the answer.

501
00:28:04.759 --> 00:28:08.559
We're not trained to ask questions, right, So the difference

502
00:28:08.559 --> 00:28:12.400
between closed advocacy and open advocacy is really that willingness

503
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:16.400
to share our thinking underneath our position, to reveal our thinking.

504
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:20.119
That's the that's the humble vulnerability part. On the other

505
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.559
side of the equation, the inquiry is rather than asking

506
00:28:24.640 --> 00:28:28.039
questions to prove them wrong, to prove my point right,

507
00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.880
we ask questions to truly understand the other person's position

508
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:36.200
and guess what. The four questions are a great shortcut

509
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.920
recipe for asking good questions. So if we were in

510
00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:44.319
a disagreement around politics, I say, what do you? What

511
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:46.880
do you what's your desire here? What are you trying

512
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:50.799
to accomplish? What's the goal in your position, or what

513
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:54.519
are you concerned about? What's your deepest concern about this issue?

514
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:58.240
Or what are your standards whether we're talking about abortion

515
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:01.680
or gun control, or what are your standards for making

516
00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.200
this judgment? What we're doing when we ask good questions

517
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:07.680
that we're opening other we're helping other people open their

518
00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:12.720
hand and reveal their thinking. Now, that doesn't always work

519
00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:16.039
because some people just won't can't open their fist. It's

520
00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:21.240
too scary, it's too you know, vulnerable. But many people

521
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.920
it's if you do it, they'll do it. There's an

522
00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:27.640
open heart to open heart, but you don't always get that,

523
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.599
but you do your best by asking the good questions.

524
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:33.079
Well, and I appreciate what you said because when you

525
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.920
first were saying asking questions, I'm thinking, okay, so let

526
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:39.000
me ask you a question. What do you think about this?

527
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:41.440
The fact that these facts have come out and so forth?

528
00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:44.759
And that's doing exactly the opposite of what you said.

529
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:46.799
That's trying to do right.

530
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:48.200
Rather than that, it's like.

531
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:50.839
Okay, tell me a little bit about your standards, tell

532
00:29:50.839 --> 00:29:54.359
me a little bit about that, and really seeming to

533
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:55.400
understand them.

534
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:57.680
And yeah, I would.

535
00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.680
Assume that if that happens, and you're right, some people

536
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.039
that are so closed off that it's not going to

537
00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:06.079
make any difference, and right, that's something we can't control.

538
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.559
But for those that are willing to be opened a

539
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.200
little bit to that all of a sudden they will

540
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:13.960
share that. And as they share that, then how do

541
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:17.960
we respond to the answer to the questions that we

542
00:30:18.119 --> 00:30:20.720
ask them as they tell us, all right, here's my

543
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.680
standard or here's you know, here's this or that.

544
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:28.039
Well, so that could play out different different ways, but

545
00:30:28.440 --> 00:30:33.279
one mediate response would be, wow, that's interesting, I have

546
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.720
a different standard. Uh, and here this is my standard.

547
00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.799
Interesting that we we have different standards that somehow we

548
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.799
adopt it, you know, through life. And so let's let's

549
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.079
talk about that a little bit, because there there we

550
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.359
can connect and we can see, you know, we're not

551
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.759
talking about a universal yet it's right or wrong. We're

552
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:56.440
talking about oh wow, we're thinking about this differently. That's

553
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.799
a very different conversation than pointing fingers and saying you know,

554
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.799
I'm right, you're wrong, and we're in a fistfight. Right,

555
00:31:03.319 --> 00:31:08.759
So one is to just acknowledge their point of view,

556
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:14.720
their standard, their concerns, their desires, and we can acknowledge,

557
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:17.200
we can disagree, we can take each one apart a

558
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.759
little bit if they're willing, so we can find even

559
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:25.559
if we find one common idea that we share, that's

560
00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:28.359
a thread to keep our friendship alive. That's a thread

561
00:31:28.440 --> 00:31:29.640
to keep our connection alive.

562
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.880
Well, and I think sometimes we may stop at collaborative

563
00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.279
h In other words, look, you know what, you and

564
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:40.240
I are friends, and let's disagree to disagree, and that's it,

565
00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:43.119
and let's avoid that conversation because we've got so many

566
00:31:43.119 --> 00:31:45.559
other things that are so good. All right, yes, but

567
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:50.319
if you can then move into the next step, the creativity, how.

568
00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:53.279
Does that happen? And what happens there?

569
00:31:53.799 --> 00:31:58.079
So if two people are willing to open their hands

570
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:03.279
and have an open minded, open hearted conversation, what we're

571
00:32:03.319 --> 00:32:06.839
creating in the conversation is space. We're creating an open

572
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:12.680
space in our minds and in the conversation. So think

573
00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:17.279
of it as a dialogue that's rather too fist fighting.

574
00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:22.839
It's this life of exploration, like, oh wow, we're really

575
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:26.400
learning from each other. And from that space we go

576
00:32:26.839 --> 00:32:30.119
what's possible? And that's the heart of the creative conversation,

577
00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:35.680
what's possible? Can we wonder what else might be? And

578
00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:39.799
that's a really lovely conversation because it forces us to

579
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:43.799
get out of our single minded, linear, rational left brain

580
00:32:44.359 --> 00:32:48.799
into our right brain, which is a bigger thinker connects

581
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:53.160
the dots, you know, has has ideas, but that's a

582
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:57.039
different process because it takes courage on our part to go,

583
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:00.400
I have a position, but then maybe there's four mores

584
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.519
that we haven't thought of. Let's just do it. Let's brainstorm.

585
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:07.799
Now we all know the word brainstorm, but without understanding conversations,

586
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:10.519
we get into brainstorms. And as soon as somebody says

587
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:14.039
an idea, the next person says that will never work.

588
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:16.599
We tried it a year ago, and that shuts down

589
00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:17.880
the creative conversation.

590
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:20.599
Well, and I know what comes to my mind, and

591
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:24.720
it's just very recent, you know, the immigration policy. I mean,

592
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:29.160
you've got those on one side that says absolutely, we've

593
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:32.119
got to close those borders, and we've got other people saying, yeah,

594
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:33.920
but you know what, there's some good people that need

595
00:33:33.960 --> 00:33:37.079
to come in that so on and so forth. And

596
00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:40.720
what I've observed just recently, and I don't know where

597
00:33:40.720 --> 00:33:44.599
it's going, but I've observed people on both sides coming

598
00:33:44.640 --> 00:33:48.599
together and saying, you know what, we need to look

599
00:33:48.680 --> 00:33:53.559
at the immigration policy and make changes so that we

600
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:56.559
can do the good that we need to do, but

601
00:33:56.640 --> 00:34:00.160
at the same time prevent the bad that we need

602
00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:00.640
to prevent.

603
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:04.000
And I saw that happening and to me, that's.

604
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:07.920
Such a great example of how that creativity is coming

605
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:08.519
into place.

606
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.119
Whether they're able to do it or not.

607
00:34:10.119 --> 00:34:14.320
We'll see, yeah, yeah, no, that's a whole other subject,

608
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.280
but yeah, no, that's a perfect example. It's it's such

609
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.159
an opportunity to wonder, I wonder what else we could create?

610
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:25.920
I wonder what else is possible? And that's you know,

611
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:29.280
you have to give up your hold on the truth

612
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:30.920
and you're and you have to give up in your

613
00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:35.480
attachment to your identity to be in that wonder space,

614
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:39.679
to be in that space of wow, there's we could

615
00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:42.400
redo this whole damn thing. So it really really works

616
00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:44.760
for everybody exactly exactly.

617
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:48.480
And so as we move from that creative aspect now

618
00:34:48.519 --> 00:34:52.679
to the commitment, what what's the difference between creative conversation

619
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:54.719
and commitment conversation?

620
00:34:55.800 --> 00:35:00.480
So, you know, from from from exploring our store worries

621
00:35:01.039 --> 00:35:03.679
to being in a good collaborative conversation and then being

622
00:35:03.719 --> 00:35:06.480
in a creative conversation is sort of an opening in

623
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:10.519
our in our mind, we're getting we're thinking bigger, we're

624
00:35:10.679 --> 00:35:14.760
more open, we're more humble, and we're getting smart. Together,

625
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:21.119
the commitment conversation is actually a collapse back into a

626
00:35:21.159 --> 00:35:24.159
position because it says, Okay, we've done all the exploration,

627
00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:26.679
but now we have to get to work. Who's going

628
00:35:26.760 --> 00:35:29.079
to do what by when? So it is how we

629
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:34.239
get things done with other people, and it generates what's

630
00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:36.960
interesting about the commitment conversation that we don't pay much

631
00:35:36.960 --> 00:35:41.480
attend to. Every promise you make will change your tomorrow.

632
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:46.000
Every promise you make will affect your relationships with your kids,

633
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.639
with your spouse, with your colleague, with your boss. So

634
00:35:49.079 --> 00:35:53.079
this conversation is about someone asks us to do something.

635
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:55.559
We can say yes, we can say no, we can

636
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:58.599
make a counter offer, and that there's a dance there

637
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.599
that we don't consciously understand that will help us make

638
00:36:02.719 --> 00:36:07.719
better promises rather than what I call sloppy promises, because

639
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:10.639
we do them day in and day out without much

640
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:15.239
awareness of a how important they are if they generate

641
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:20.440
our future, and b how much we can just say

642
00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:25.280
yes without even thinking about the consequences of what we're

643
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:25.840
saying yes to.

644
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.679
Okay, and so as we talk about awareness of this

645
00:36:28.760 --> 00:36:30.960
whole thing, I know in you're moving to talk a

646
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.199
little bit about meditation, and I think you even have

647
00:36:33.320 --> 00:36:36.960
some stuff on your website tell me a little bit

648
00:36:37.159 --> 00:36:40.880
about meditation and what your thoughts are on meditation and

649
00:36:40.960 --> 00:36:44.679
how important is that or something similar to that to

650
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:48.559
helping people to start to be able to follow these

651
00:36:48.599 --> 00:36:51.320
four areas of conversation.

652
00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:55.159
So the reason I put it in the book is

653
00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.800
it's a sister to awareness, or it's a tool for awareness,

654
00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.159
because with all the all the different techniques and all

655
00:37:06.159 --> 00:37:11.239
the different methodologies around meditation and all the sometimes like

656
00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:16.639
deep Tibetan Buddhist stuff is lovely, but it's incredibly complex.

657
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:19.679
But with all those complexities, when we nail it down,

658
00:37:19.760 --> 00:37:26.360
it's like us sitting quietly observing our own thinking, observing

659
00:37:26.719 --> 00:37:30.639
what's going on inside this this chamber up here, and

660
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:35.480
and that that exercise of observation is like being the

661
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:39.199
witness to our thinking. And there from being a witness

662
00:37:39.320 --> 00:37:41.840
rather than being attached to is similar to what I

663
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:45.239
was talking about earlier. It's a methodology. It's a tool

664
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:50.159
to understand ourselves in a way that without without it,

665
00:37:50.480 --> 00:37:53.320
we're an autopilot. Well that makes sense.

666
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:56.079
Oh yeah, And you know, as I meditate, and I

667
00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:59.800
try to do it every day, you know, as I meditate,

668
00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:02.119
and one thing I've learned as I've rune to different

669
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.599
courses and so forth. Is that as we truly meditate,

670
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:09.239
things come up, things come up. And if we look

671
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.519
at those things that come up, and particularly if it's

672
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.199
emotions of some sort, and then we start to ask

673
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:19.639
the questions you just were sharing with us that, okay,

674
00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:21.119
what's the standard here?

675
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:23.639
You know why that emotion?

676
00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:27.440
And all of a sudden, through that meditation, if we're

677
00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.440
able to, as you say, step outside of ourselves and

678
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:34.159
be an observer, all of a sudden, we start to discover.

679
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:36.280
And that was going to be kind of my final

680
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:40.000
question here with you is let's take this communication and

681
00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:43.039
conversation that we have with other people and let's talk

682
00:38:43.039 --> 00:38:45.719
about the conversation and just a short amount of time

683
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:48.519
that we have with themselves and with their own life.

684
00:38:48.920 --> 00:38:50.000
It applies to It.

685
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:57.559
Definitely applies. So, you know, meditation give us that observation perspective.

686
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.800
We've become a witness of our own thinking, and as

687
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.440
a witness we can we can make transform things instead

688
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:08.480
of being an autopilot. And another process that we can

689
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.559
do is we all have what in the lang language

690
00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:18.480
flophy language world, there's there's our public conversation and then

691
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.840
there's our private conversation, and our private conversation is the

692
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:26.719
monkeys in our mind or or or or the committee,

693
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.239
you know that's always telling us, you know what's going on.

694
00:39:29.760 --> 00:39:32.639
And I have an exercise in the book that was

695
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.639
actually created by Chris Argis many many years ago, I

696
00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.599
think at the Harvard Business School. He was way out

697
00:39:37.599 --> 00:39:39.239
of his time, and I don't think it was well

698
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.480
received then, but now it's pretty pretty pretty cool. You

699
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:47.360
literally document a conversation and you divide a piece of

700
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.960
paper in half with the line, and on one side

701
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:52.599
you write a conversation as you were spoken, and on

702
00:39:52.639 --> 00:39:55.039
the left side you write what you were thinking and

703
00:39:55.079 --> 00:40:00.400
feeling while both parties were talking. And I've done this

704
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:03.000
with hundreds of people and the left side. When people

705
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.960
actually do this and they write down their private conversation,

706
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.320
there's a fair amount of surprise because we just don't

707
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.440
pay attention. That chatter is just there running. It's routine

708
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:19.639
for twenty thirty, forty fifty years, whatever. But when we

709
00:40:19.679 --> 00:40:21.280
write it down, we go, oh, my gosh, I had

710
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:24.159
no idea. I was so judgmental because there's curse words,

711
00:40:24.199 --> 00:40:28.039
there's like a lot of negative negativity. So when we

712
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:32.760
look at it, we don't. I'm not criticizing the act,

713
00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:35.480
and I'm saying the only option we have. If we

714
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.679
bury those things, those thoughts, it's not good for our health.

715
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:41.239
If we speak them out loud, it's not good for

716
00:40:41.280 --> 00:40:45.840
a relationship. So we can process our private conversations and

717
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:50.119
find goodness in them because we have concerns that are legitimate.

718
00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:53.079
We have standards that we can share and learn from

719
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:57.239
other people's standards. So it's the processing of our private

720
00:40:57.239 --> 00:41:01.360
conversations that frees us from the grip they have that

721
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:05.599
keeps us from being present because the chatter is there.

722
00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:07.079
I love that. I love that.

723
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.280
Well, guess what we have gone through time again. It's

724
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:13.199
just amazing to me how fast time goes by. So

725
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.000
as we close, how do people find your book?

726
00:41:16.280 --> 00:41:21.119
Okay, so they can, there's Amazon and other online places.

727
00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:25.320
Better yet, order it your favorite bookstore. Good for the bookstore,

728
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:28.840
good for me. But it's it's out there and it's

729
00:41:28.880 --> 00:41:33.639
alive and well, which is really good, ring to my heart.

730
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:38.599
And then on my website, I think you scroll down

731
00:41:38.599 --> 00:41:42.119
a little bit and there's a free PDF of the introduction.

732
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:44.199
So all you have to do is put your email

733
00:41:44.239 --> 00:41:47.639
and then you get a PDF of the introduction, and

734
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:53.239
what's your website is? Chuck Wisner dot com, c h U,

735
00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:56.639
c k W S and air dot com. Yeah, and

736
00:41:57.039 --> 00:41:58.800
I'm a little bit on social media, a little bit

737
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:01.039
on Instagram, a little bit on link in. Not a

738
00:42:01.039 --> 00:42:02.519
heavy user, but I'm there.

739
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:05.679
Okay, And as we close, what would be a final

740
00:42:05.719 --> 00:42:07.519
message you want to share with the audience.

741
00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:15.199
These conversational tools take practice. So if you start looking

742
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.559
and start observing and start paying attention, look at it

743
00:42:18.679 --> 00:42:21.519
non judgmentally. Try to just look at it as like, well,

744
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:25.239
I have a pattern, it's not serving me. Well maybe

745
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:27.719
I didn't adopt that consciously, but I can look at

746
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:32.280
it now non judgmentally and just be kind to yourself.

747
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:36.800
So you have the courage to look deeper, which will

748
00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:39.639
change every conversation in every relationship you have.

749
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:43.519
So wonderful, wonderful, Yeah, Jock, thanks so much.

750
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:47.519
This has been great, good conversation here. Thank you.

751
00:42:48.039 --> 00:42:49.880
I'm glad this. I hope this one works out.

752
00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:51.960
Yeah it does, it did, believe me.

753
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:54.800
So anyway, thanks so much, And folks, I hope you

754
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:57.119
got something good out of this, because I sure did.

755
00:42:57.639 --> 00:43:01.119
And hopefully hopefully you'll get the book, read the book.

756
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:03.440
I've already read a part of it. It's fantastic.

757
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:08.199
And read the book and hopefully allow it to change

758
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:09.559
your life for the positive.

759
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:10.880
So anyway, this is

760
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.960
Doctor Doug thanking you for joining us, hoping you'll join

761
00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:16.519
us again soon, saying no mista