The Business of Relationships: Wisdom from the Boardroom to the Heart

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0:52 Tom Welcome to the show, Doug. I'm very very happy to be here, looking forward to this interview, in this dialogue with you today. Yeah, I am looking forward to it too. I think the whole topic that we're going to talk about is so important in today's culture and what's going on. What I'd love for you to do though, and I find this always interesting. What's your background and how on earth did you write this book? What brought you to write the book? And you can you name it, let the audience know the name of the book, and so forth, but also what's the motivation behind it? Where you decided to write this book and get into this whole discussion. Well, let me deal with the easy part first, the background.

1:33 I am the oldest of ten children born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio. Nine of us are still alive. Seven of us live in Cincinnati, so we see each other quite frequently. And I was the oldest of those ten. So I was the example in many ways good and bad. And I was educated by the Jesuits, which if you know anything about the Catholic religion, the Jesuits are the intellectctuals. They are the writers and speakers and university professors of the priesthood, if you will. And I think the greatest lesson that the Jesuits taught us and certainly me, is critical thinking, you know, knowing not just the fact, but the source of the facts, and being able to discern well, you know. And so I matriculated from ten years of Jesuit education into business. I've been in the advertising and marketing field, done everything from pitching clients to in some cases writing copy and directing commercials and so forth. I got into entrepreneurship, founded a couple of companies. I had my own consulting firm for many, many years, and we excuse me, we found our way into the corporate turnaround.

2:51 Quite by accident of the years. A colleague of mine and his client felt that I could help his company that was in deep trouble. And I said, I've never done something like this before, and as so often happens, they said, but what we know you can. So I got into that world and it ended up being probably the second major career I had after advertising and marketing, because I started getting calls from bankers and lawyers and accountants who had clients who were in trouble. And that trouble arranged anywhere from tax problems to marketing problems, through financial messes and so forth, and so that's where I spent probably the majority of my career. Doug and this book, sort of diving into the second part of your question, I frequently say to people that this is the book that was never supposed to be a book. One of the passions that I had over the years was collecting quotes from leaders, and those could be people in sports, people in business obviously, people in politics or religion or science.

4:00 Anything that I found inspirational to me, I would I would write it down, predating the days of Google docs and so forth. But I probably had a notebook or two full of these quotes, and probably about eight or nine years ago, I started looking at them in the way of could this be instructive in a venue other than business? You know, because every one of these quotes from the business leaders anyway, was said in the context of their business, you know. It was in a shareholder letter, it was in an annual report, it was an interview of speech they gave, and it was decidedly business. And I thought, could they apply elsewhere? And I found that many of them could be instructive in personal relationship, And I started writing essays that included a little biography of the business leader, because many times, you know, to the casual observer, they don't know who this person's You know, we all know Steve Jobs and Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, but we don't know anit Erotic and Carly Freina and you know, others like that. So I started writing essays and giving them to my three adult children and some friends, and somewhere along the line somebody said, we think these ought to be an interviewer or a newspaper column rather, and I poop pooed that idea. I wasn't interested in it, didn't think it had legs. And finally I sat down one day with a writer friend of mine, a newspaper

5:30 reporter actually for the business press. He works for a big conglomerate here in the US, and showed him a few of these over lunch, and he really liked him and said, man, I think these are good. This could be a weekly column. I think your friends are right. And I said, ask Steve, I don't know if I want to do that, but I did give him permission to pitch his editor. He said he wanted to do that, and so I said, sure, why not. And by that time I probably had twenty or thirty that I had distributed, and he pitched his editors. They got back to him and said, hey, tell your friend, these are really good. The problem is we are not an op ed newspaper. We are fact based business weekly reporting on local and regional businesses in a variety of markets around the US, and this doesn't have a place for us, more or less an op ed advice column. So but they followed that was saying, tell your friend it ought to be a book, you know, if he had enough of these, it could be a book. And so he shared that with me over another lunch and I said, no, that's never going to happen, And through a very twisted, winding road with him and a few other people, we actually ended up submitting it through him and with him to some publishers that he knew, and I developed a couple on my own and loan behold, one of them got back and said, yeah, well you want to do this thing, when are you going to have the rest of it done?

6:55 And that became a sprint because the the previous whatever it was, seven years or so, had been casual writing, dabbling, playing with ideas, and now it was gee, when are you going to have this done? And so I submitted a final manuscript to them in January of twenty twenty three. We spend most of that year with edits and everything else that goes on, as you know, and it got published late in twenty twenty three, and here we are today, So here you are. And what's the name. What's the name of the book. What's the name of the name. Of the book is the Business of Relation and the subtitle is using the wisdom of great executive to create thriving personal connections. But if nobody remembers all of that, it's simply the Business of Relationships, and it's on Amazon.

7:43 Well, and you know what I find interesting, and you you kind of alluded to it. I've done a little bit of consulting in my life, and what I found interesting was that as I was working with very small business owners, not at year level, but as I was working with small business owners, oftentimes it was their life that was affecting their business, and as we created business protocols, it naturally flowed into their life protocols. And so I'm not sure that you can separate the two. And you kind of alluded to the fact that, you know, here they are talking about business, and yet if you apply it to personal all of a sudden, there's incredible, incredible wisdom in what they say. And what really motivated you about relationships? What is the situation today that actually said to you? You know what, I'm going to use these quotes, but I'm going to use these quotes that focus on relationships.

8:42 Well, I think for me it was a relatively easy choice, because relationships are important to me and should be important to all of us, you know, whether that is a fausal relationship, a sibling relationship, family relationship, colleagues, friend, et cetera. I think having a talent for building bridges rather than burning them is something that we all need more of today. And I started to encounter Doug some statistics that are just shocking to you know, when you say that here in America, for instance, you know, this is a seven point eight almost eight trillion dollar problem in business with failed relationships, because it impacts productivity, it impacts longevity on the job. You know, employees that are that are under stress in their relationships are sixty two percent I think it was sixty two percent more likely to quit abruptly.

9:42 You know, we have terms like workplace ghosting, bare minimum, mondays, quiet quitting. All of those things excuse me. All of those things speak to just failure in our relationships. And I think the one that is saddest to me is that here in America. You know, and I realized we're talking long distance. You're in Thailand, I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. But here in America, in the richest country in the world, arguably the most powerful country in history, you know, a beacon of democracy at times, you know, sometimes better than others. But you know, in this country that has so much going for our children are three times more likely to grow up in a single parent household than the worldwide average.

10:29 So you think about that for a minute. It's not thirty percent more, fifteen percent more, it's three times more likely. And I think that speaks to this individualistic society. You alluded to some of it in your comments earlier. You know, this individualistic I've got mine, hope you get yours mindset is damning our children to a situation that is just tragic. Well and we as we live politically, at the relationships that are going on, it's just horrendous. And I can't even imagine how that's going to affect our children now ultimately and our grandchildren if that doesn't get handled. And it is interesting that this has really become a focus I've found with many people and a concern of how are we going to repair these relationships, how are we going to help these relationships because becomes something of a positive nature. And as you say, and I've never heard that statistic that they're three times more likely to be in a single family home, that's that's horrendous.

11:36 Yeah, yeah, it's just it's just tragic. And I have a lot of respect and a lot of regard and a lot of hope for the single parent who is doing his or her job. The basis that is a tough assignment to be both the father and the mother and the household, regardless of gender. And I think that when you look at something like that, you say, what is that mess said? If if a relationship that they look at as foundational they want to have, confident, they want to enjoy, you will the family unit, what does it say to them if those foundational relations become transaction, become transition as well? I think that it is not a good message to have that child hold for his and when when when agencies are trying to place foster children and can't find homes for them because the system is jammed up? You know, again, these are these are victimless or I'm sorry that the child is is a victim and not able to arguably do anything about.

12:44 This or her own What do you think cause of what's the rit cause of all this? I think over time there's probably several things. One of the stats that I saw recently was the decline in trusts, especially in America. Not only institutional trust, with personal trust has declined significant mid seven. In nineteen seventy five, it was said by Gallant that about fifty three percent of Americans believed that they could trust. That is now thirty two. Wow, you have sixty eight percent of our American population saying I can't trust another personal I place very little trust.

13:26 And it started institutionally. Certainly it exacerbated with COVID in the isolation we felt in and I think the technology contributed to it as well. We don't have to trust each other as everything is at our fingertiss. We have AI to do all the research we wanted to do with Amazon to deliver all the things we want. We have grub Hub or door dash to deliver all the food we could want, and we can isolate. And isolation breeds mistrust. It puts people in an echo chamber of life like minded folks, and anyone outside that echo chamber is frequently not trusted well. And it's interesting, is you know I'm on Facebook, and I'm on a number of social media sites because of the podcast and the reels and so forth, and what I find interesting. For instance, even with TikTok, you know, I'll be looking at mine and then kind of checking things over, and here will be a message and I immediately most of the time, will go to AI, as you mentioned, and ask the question is this true? And I will tell you that at least thirty percent of those presentations that I watch are not true. They're downright lies.

14:43 And so yeah, how do you get to a point where, if you have the ability really to check things out, all of a sudden you realize, you know, what we're being lied to on social media? There just isn't the truth anymore. And how do you bet that you do it through through AI? Certainly I do too. You know the proliferation of scams that are out there praying on people, But I think that speaks to this. We place an awful lot of trust in our machinery and very little in our and I think that's going to have a long term bad impact on all of it. And I think it's also the messaging you know that there used to be and I don't want to sound like some old person.

15:25 But it used to be that there were certain things that you almost took for granted. You know, the government may not have been your friend, but it was at least in your corner most of the time. You know. The school system may not have been the greatest thing for us individually over time, but it was consistent and it was reliable, you know. And I think some of that reliability in the institutions has gone away. And I think when our children look at the fact that even long term alliances, you know, the relationship of America with NATA, relationship of America with Japan and some of the Eastern countries, those things are all of a sudden very transactional and very much, at least in this political environment, very transitory, and very much tied to economic you know. And I think when our kids say, well, if you can't get along with your ally, with people that have been in your corner almost since the Revolutionary War, and certainly it's World War two, if you can't get along and have a unified worldview with them, what does that tell me about my potential to have good personal rooms one on one with people. I think we're just sending some awfully bad messaging, Doug.

16:44 Well, and it's interesting to me too. You know, I always kind of look at the root cause, and it's interesting to me. I'm not sure we can discover what the root cause is in this, but to see the infiltration of a lack of trust, filter of you know, false media and political leanings and you know what, I've got to be right and you're wrong. And so you get that ego in there that is just proliferated to the point where people can even have honest discussions in many cases, and in many cases people have lost friends just over the political issues that are going on. And these are good friends that they no longer can be in communication with because of that strong ego that says, you know what, I'm right and you're wrong. So here's what's interesting. You have literally in your book you're kind of using the quotes of major business leaders and so forth.

17:43 But I found it interesting is that I was going through your book that you also get into religions and you get into really going back thousands of years many times and looking at the basis of relationships based on those foundational instruments. And I'd love for you to share with the audience a little bit what you discovered. Obviously, you you know, you were with the Jesuits and you know wherever you are now, that's fine, But obviously you have an extreme interest in the various worldwide religions and philosophies, particularly about this topic, and I'd love for you to share with the audience kind of what you have discovered with that.

18:28 Well. I think what was amazing to me was when you look at their scripture, you know, and I chose to look at what I would call the seven majors, you know, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Confusion is law, et cetera. I think when you look at their scriptures and their and their holy writings, it amazed me to see the parallel primacy. You know, relationships are built on qualities like trust, integrity, and they're built on perspective and resilience others, and every one of those religions said remarkably similar at various times. You know that if you look back to the Buddhist writings and the data ching, and you look at the Old Testament Bible, you know, they have some parallels there in terms of the timing of those writings. And it was amazing. In different parts of the world, in very different in very different historical tradition, it came to relationships, they were remarkably similar. In placing this at the nexus of good living, you know that you will not have a good life without good relation, without communit without whether it was Eastern, Western, or anywhere in between, was pretty amajor.

19:42 So I think that was the biggest religion. There was not a single major dialect or that that didn't place relation to center. Well, it's fascinating to me, as you say, I've studied a number of them and done the same thing that you have, maybe in a little different way, but trying to look at and compare the similarities and to look at these similarities that exist. But again, as you say, that focus on relationships that focus on goodness, on kindness, on understanding is just amazing to me that these are the basis of most of you know, most of the religions and philosophies, and I find that so fascinating. So as you wrote your book and as you were looking at all of these different quotes, you kind of came up with I don't know how many eight, ten different areas that really make a relationship I'd love for you to kind of talk about each one a little bit and talk about why each one is important. And I know it starts out with perspective.

20:44 Right right, I would say that, well, first of all, there's twelve qualities that have been widely identified. Is fundamental to a good personship, not necessarily a romantic, familiar, platonic in and out of you know, different different venues and so forth. But I think perspective is one of those qualities with twelve that gives you a long term piece, gives you the ability to say, you know, this is a speed bump, This is not amount. It's it's saying to the other person that I am taking the long view of the relationship, I am moving toward it with some sense of permanence, and I and I attach perspectives of that. And then you have qualities like trust and honest integrity, which are foundational to a relationship. If again we talked about this earlier already, but if you can't be trusted or you can't trust others, that's going to damage or kill. Integrity is the same thing. What do you do when nobody's looking? Is the way I would characterize integrity and if you are a person who stands by what he or she and then does it, that to me is integrity, and it doesn't matter if anybody's looking or if there are any consequences to it that are knows foundational. You know, have you of honest as well?

22:01 That's pretty easy to explain. You know that the recovery community calls it rigorous on it. You know that you want to be intentional about being taking that care with them, then I think you have qualities that are a little bit different. And again, when I looked at these twelve, I found them in places the Harvard Business found them in places at Western School, Event's Journal, Marriage dot Com, NBC News. You know, it was a wide array of different outlets, if you will, that that all seemed to gravitate towards some of these is being foundational. Not one site named all twelve, but there was enough commonality there that you said, if I had to pick twelve, if I wanted to do one a month, so to speak, being a business guy, fifty two essays for fifty two weeks and put thirteen in each quarter of the book and all that stuff, you know, I gravitated to those twelve and I think the ones that you can look at that are a little bit more not as intuitive, would be things like risk can change and maybe priority.

23:07 I think there are other qualities, the qualities of humility and commitment, the quality resilient suspect. Those are all foundational qualities. And I found it pretty easy to adapt some of these quotes into those areas. You know, and I have some of my favorites. You can talk about or not, but you know, I think there is guidance from the if you look at it in the context, not what he said, but what could be well. And you know what comes to my mind is you talk about perspective for instance. In fact, I want to talk about perspective and change because I think I think those two are so interrelated. You know, you talk about perspective, but the reality is when we talk and I love the word perception. You know, an event occurs and we perceive that event based on our own personal beliefs that have been created since childhood. And some of them are what we would say real and true, and others have been those imprints that have come from our parents, our religion, our society, our school, even our DNA. And how do you help someone to start to develop a true and honest perspective rather than a perception that may in fact be affected by all of that, including the fact that even now with everything that's going on with technology and so forth, if you get in and look at the news,

24:38 or if you get in and they're looking at anything social media wise based on AI, they have figured out where your interests are and they keep giving you all of that information when in fact it may not be true perspective. So how do you help people to get to the point where they can actually develop a true perspective? That's question number one. Then where change comes into place is being able to say, you know what, I've been wrong and I need to change my way of thinking, I need to change my way of behavior whatever that happens to be. And change, I think is one of the greatest difficulties that we experienced in our life because of our egos and just because of things in general.

25:24 So how do you work with perspective with people and how do you work with them being able then to have the courage to make that change. Well, I think for me, perspective goes back to what is the long term vision or long term value that you are placing onto relationship, whether that is with your spouse, your child, a colleague, a friend, a golf partner. What value do you place on what vision you have for it? I think people have to ask themselves that question, because if they do and they answer it in terms of I place great value on this for the future, that our friendship or our marital relationship, my relationship with my sibling is going to be asistent and good accelerating over the next five, ten, fifteen years. If you have that kind of a vision and a value on the relationship, then I think you will do the things necessary and you know, to accelerate that. I also look at it in terms of what the Stoics always said and their favorite philosophy of mine among some others. The Stoics always said that you can't control the circum you can only control the response. And I think if people had a bit more of that mindset, we would all be what is my racy in terms of again the value I place on a vision. So I think if we look at it that way and unpack it a little bit, say I am in this for the long haul. What

26:55 is the impact of this? You know, the people say the ten ten rule and ten ten rule. You know, I talk about that a little bit with some people that I speak to about perspective. What is the impact of what just happened in ten minutes? What is the impact of this in ten days? What is in impact of the ten? And very frequently, you know, if you look at ten ten, ten, and you can put anything on it, you know, minutes, hours, days, you know, weeks, months, years, whatever you want to do. But a lot of times if you get people talking about and saying, well, understand, you're really mad at your wife over the fact they spent X number of dollars on a frivolist purchase. It's frivolist.

27:38 What's the impact of that going to be ten days? Oh, it won't be anything at all. I probably will forget about it. What about ten weeks? What about ten years? So a lot of times when you put it in that context, I think it helps perspective as well, controlling response again going back to the value. Well, and as you look at that perspective and for instance, a relationship, and if your perspective is this, I want this to last, I want this to be good, then comes the necessity of saying, okay, what do I have to change. What do I have to do to contribute to to help this to become a good relationship and also what is needed from the other individual for this to become a good relationship and a long lasting relationship.

28:24 How do you address that? Well? You you you gave me an in there. Uh, And I want to talk about change a little bit, but I want to dive back into perspective just for a minute, because I think we can. We can. I can offer you two quotes from the book and two business leaders that are that are widely acknowledged is as people that just about everyone respects. The first one is Steve Jobs. Okay, the founder of Apple, in and out of Apple as we know, you know, with the with the John Scully transition. He walks away from Apple, he founds Pixar, he founds next comput he sells that back to Apple, he becomes the new CEO, and from there it's that great run of success with iPhone and iPad and and all of that. But Steve Jobs said something, and this was in a speech in two thousand and five to the graduating class of Stanford University, and it was post cancer for him. He had survived that first Scare eventually died of cancer as well. In in two thousand and five, he gave this speech to the Stanford graduating class and he said, remembering that I'll be dead is one of the biggest tools I used to make major and that talked to me powerfully about perspective because it talks about the fact the short time that we're here is not as significant as we think it in the history of the You know that all of us are going to fall victim to being remembered by very few people for a short period of time. And I think Jobs captured that in talking and that spoke to

29:54 me powerfully. Respective. The one that speaks to me about change came from a speech that Jack Welch gave to his business at General Electric. And he was a pretty new CEO, and Jack was a tough guy, and not everybody liked what he did, you know, but the fact is he tripled shareholder value. He did two hundred acquisitions, he diversified into many different and made this lumbering industrial giant more nimble in his twenty years. And Jack gave a speech to these business with the heads of GE Finance and GE Aerospace and GE Metal and all that, and he said to them, he said, if you are not number one or number two in your marketplace, I will fit you, close you, or sell you. So change before you have to. And those five words. I've used that in many different contexts. Change before you have to, But in the context of a relationship, change before you have to the financial irresponsibility that's going to wreck your change before you have to a passive aggressive nature of kids that is not contributing good relationships. Change before you have to your bad temperature, change before you have to the budding addiction. I think those are really powerful words from from a guy who clearly didn't say them in the context of a relationship. He was warning his business leaders that you're going to be fixed, closed, or sold unless you are number one or number two, So get on the stick. So I think those two when you talk about perspective and you talk about change, I can't

31:25 think of too many quotes. It would be better guidance relationship than they're respected. Yeah, and I love I love the quote change before you have to. And again I think it goes to I think it goes to the mindset of all of us is if we are in any relationship that we want to have continue, we really need to look at what do I need to change? You know, so often we tend to blame everybody else, but we never take the responsibility to say, what do I need to change to make this relationship better? And when we do that and start to do that transformational, introspective work, that makes a big change. And I know one of the things you talk about is that transformation wisdom. I'd love for you to share with the audience what you mean by that, What is transformative wisdom and how does that apply in our lives as we want to develop these relationships.

32:22 Well, I think transformative wisdom to me would always be what did I do with it? You know? I mean, you know, isn't there an old saying out there that knowledge without action is wasteful and action without knowledge is foolish. I think that's somewhere in one of the Eastern texts that I read. But you know, I think that's a good little mantra to have, is that if you have wisdom and you've acquired it because of the people you're with, because of what you believe taught, that's one thing. It's great. There's a lot of smart people, but what did you actually do with it? How did it how did it make a difference in your life and the lives that will around you? And I think, you know, it just came to me as we were talking here, But I think Bill Gates is another quote that I had in my in my chapter on and Gates said success is a lousy teacher because it seduces smart people into thinking they can't And when you think about that, that is that is part of this stew if you will, in and around transformative wisdom. He's saying that, you know, just because you succeeded here or there doesn't mean that you can put things on autopilot. You know, don't don't be seduced by the fact that you can't lose just because you've built three companies, you have a seven handicap, you're driving a Ferrari, and guess what your life stinks. You know, your relationships with your kids stink, Your relationship your wife

33:54 is very transactional, et cetera, et cetera. You don't have a lot of friends, you have a lot of quaintances. You know that that seduction of success really traps a lot of It trapped me certainly for a while continues to challenge. Well, and I love what you said about wisdom and action. And I love that. Quote because the reality is is, yes, I think all of us get ideas, we develop some wisdom about something, but unless we're willing to take the next step and do something about it, nothing happens. Now, what would you say, how could that apply to the day's culture in the US? Boy, that's a tall order. Where do we start? How much time do we hear?

34:39 Not much? I think here in the US, the biggest challenge is that we are exceedingly lonely and we are definitely excessive and are you know? And I think that recipe there those two things that you would think would be counter to each other. You know, I don't want to be lonely, therefore I can be individualistic. The US is saying, no, we want to be both. We aspire to be individualistic, and the price of that is loneliness. And that's a sixty percent of us are now saying in the US that our constant companion is lowly. And a lot of that is cultural and a lot of it is technolog But I think again that to me is one of the crux issues that we have to grapple is getting back into getting back into lating, when they're getting back in clubs, associations and so forth that contribute to society, that go outside of what.

35:34 We are that and get that conversation and communication to the point where you can say, Doug, this is what I really feel about this, and I can say, Hey, Tom, I really understand that. I don't necessarily agree, but let's talk about that a bit. And all of a sudden, as you're starting to talk about those things, that relationship starts to redevelop and as you say, that can only happen when we're in a community, when we're developing those communities to get there, and when we're willing to listen and not necessarily let our ego get in the way of judgment. I could not have said it better. I mean, I think that's one of the characteristics we've lost, is we all want to speak, but we don't want to and we don't take the time to really investigate. You know, you can talk about the political differences or religious different we have, But where did the i'll call it tenderness in the question, where where if you and I were engaging and you were not believing in what I believe.

36:31 You know, why don't I say, Doug, can you tell me a little bit about why you believe that was part of that belief? So due to some security in your upbringing, why would you think that people can't be trusted? You know, and get the other person talking, not to convince them necessarily to your way, but to clarify the factors that are causing this. You know, nobody suddenly rallied around Donald Trump when he came down the escalator in twenty five team spouting while you spouted off. There was a deeply disaffected population brewing as an undercurrent, probably since the early two thousand. He just happened to tap into that vein. But would it help to talk to people and say what caused the what? What was it about American society? Just trying to find out and be educated?

37:21 I think with education, as we understand each other better, it can relate to one another better. You said it yourself earlier, Yeah, and I think that's the key. Well, as we close, how do people find your book again? Okay, they find it on Amazon and it is the business of relationship. Great, And what would be your final message to the audience. Well, I think you stole a little bit of my thunder earlier, but off sorry about that. I'll possibly put it differently. If you want a good relationship, okay, I think I think there's there's two easy ways to do it. Realize that every problem is a relationship problem. You know, the CEOs that I spotlighted in the book were masters at creating good relationships. That's why they're as well paid as they are because they have to relate well to shareholders and customer and vendor regulatory aid. So I think the understanding that always look for the problem in the relationship before you try to solve. The other thing I would say is be fearless about looking in the mirror.

38:21 If you want a great relationship, look in the mirror and say where's it breaking down? Because of again the recovery community as a saying that they I believe, they say keep your own side of the street. When you look in the mirror, you make sure that your side of the where do I need to where do where do I need? A greater or a greater trust or a more resilience as circumstanced so that it doesn't become again the speed bump. Well, Tom, thanks so much I really appreciate and I find it fascinating that you've been able to get all of these quotes, and again, you know, from people who have been so successful in business, and yet their quotes are so applicable in our everyday life and in our everyday relationships.

39:07 Well, I'll close with one that's a favorite because we didn't mention any females in dialogue. But Cheryl Sandberg, who was you know, Google and Facebook fame and so forth, had some unfortunate circumstances, and the largest of which was losing her husband while they were on vacation. But Cheryl Sandberg said, each one of us is more than those things we've ever done. That spoke to me about resilience. But you could also go back to the beginning of the book with perspective, and today maybe that's a perspective as well. Each one of us, not the ones who pray the most, not the ones who give the most money to their college, not the ones who smile the most, you know at Christmas parties, It is each one of them is more than the thing with the guidepostor well.

39:51 I appreciate that. Tom, thanks so much. I really appreciate your input and your contribution. I think that's fantastic. Thank you very much for your time and your wisdom today. It was a wonderful discussion. Great way to start today in Cincinnati, Ohio. Oh yeah, and folks, thanks for listening and I hope you've enjoyed it and look forward to having you join us again soon. So this is doctor Dux saying I'm a stay