#13 Jen Maneely The Lessons My Daughter's Addiction Taught Me

Intro: 0:02

Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.

Lynn: 0:19

Hi, hello, and welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast. This is Lynn Carnes, your host. Well, not this time. Once again, this is another turn the mic around pod episode where I was the guest on the unbreakable boundaries podcast hosted by Jen Maneely. Now you might recognize that name, she's my daughter. And in this particular podcast, we are talking about some of the I'm going to call them Harrier stories of her drug addiction. Some of the things that we went behind the scenes on what was going on with me and with her as we were making different decisions or having different dilemmas. There's some things in here that I didn't even know about as she was telling them to me. So things unfolded kind of interestingly in here because I had to hear things and she'd heard things that we'd actually never shared with each other before. Now, there was one story about my education on being the parent of an addict That happened in 15 minutes in a hotel room that has never left me. It changed my life and absolutely helped me navigate her addiction. So there are a lot of stories in here of uncertainty of us resolving dilemmas. But there's also a lot of hope. And I actually hope that's your biggest takeaway is the hope. Because sometimes, just sometimes diving into the pain is the only way out. So we wanted to go in and dive into our stories and and our pain for the sake of those who might be facing something similar. Even if it's not drug addiction, even if It's just pressure. We wanted to share this with you, our listeners, my listeners, her listeners, so that you can apply these lessons to whatever's going on with you because one thing I know for sure is, we're always going to be under pressure. The world is never going to be easy, but we can become stronger as we face that pressure. I hope you enjoy this episode. And please do have your friends. If you do enjoy it. Please share it with your friends. Thank you

Jen: 2:29

if you are just tuning in. This next episode is actually an interview with my mother and I and it went under. Originally my other podcast that I had created called end the stigma. In my first episode of The unbreakable boundaries podcast, I was talking about the reasons why I had kind of scrapped and moved into this format of the unbreakable boundaries and why I did that and what my intentions really were. Now in the beginning of this next podcast, you're gonna immediately hear that it was from end the stigma. But my mom and I had such a great conversation and it was all about boundaries and some of our experiences that I didn't want to lose the the many, many nuggets that were in this interview that that we had together. So I decided to go ahead and upload it under the unbreakable boundaries podcast. But you will hear oftentimes it being referred to something about end the stigma or stigma because it was originally under that podcast, but I really do hope that you enjoy this next interview. It was so fun for me I'm so grateful that my mom and I have been so able to get past a lot of the things that that really hurt. relationship and really healed to where we can be very open and honest, and even help other people in their own relationships. Whether you're a mother, daughter, father or whatever, maybe you have another family that member that has substance abuse. If there's damage done to the relationship, here's the greatest thing. Time really does heal all wounds. But it also requires healing on both sides of the street. So if you've been hurt by someone that has substance abuse, maybe it's time for you to start your own journey of healing, so that eventually maybe you can heal the relationship just like even my mother and I have done enjoy this next episode. Hey guys, welcome back to in the stigma podcast. I'm super excited about this episode because I actually have my first guest and you'll never guess who it is. I'm just going to tell you because I'm so excited. I can't wait. It is actually my Mother, Lynn carnes, she said she would be on my podcast when I asked her and I have her and I am so stoked. So welcome to end the stigma Hi,

Lynn: 5:14

glad to be here.

Jen: 5:15

So I one of the big things that I have really been focusing on, especially when it comes to how do we really look at stigma, how do we end it and my big thing is, is we start really speaking our truth that when it comes to looking at situations that we're in that it just is it doesn't have to be full of shame or guilt. It's just something that's happening. It's not anything to be ashamed of or feel guilty over have some weird judgments or anything like that. So, you know, when I was going through my own addiction, my mom was obviously A big part of that. So this is the reason why I really wanted to have her on this on my show is to talk about like, what were some of her feelings around some stuff and how did she get through it? And, and maybe even if she had to do it all over again, or we'll just see how the conversation kind of progresses in that way. So I'm going to actually Hand it over a little bit. So let's just start from maybe, let's just go from where did you first notice that I started having an issue? I know. Well, well. Let's reframe that. My drug addiction issue. I have issues from a young age but my drug addiction.

Lynn: 6:52

Well, the first thing that I have to say about that is you probably were giving me signals long before I saw them. Yeah, and it was kind of part of my upbringing to do a good job of pretending that everything was okay. And being, I think of it as blind and numb to the signals. Somehow, like I was inoculated against something bad happening here. So I would see a signal and think, Well, that doesn't happen. That can't mean that for us,. You know, if I saw that signal somebody else let's say they have a problem.

Jen: 7:29

Right? You know, if not our family

Lynn: 7:30

not our family on our family. So honestly, I have to tell you that the night you called right before your 22nd birthday,

Jen: 7:39

mm, yeah. was probably when I when I was basically like, Hey, Mom, I know you probably weren't expecting this, but I kind of need to go to rehab. Well, I'm kind of being forced to go into rehab.

Lynn: 7:51

Yeah, so that's that particular sequence and 48 hours was definitely like the biggest wake up call. Yeah. And it was on so many layers. selfishly, and this was the pattern that I had exhibited with you pretty much your whole life was. I was happy to show up for you as long as it didn't inconvenience me too much.

Jen: 8:17

Right? Well, but isn't that isn't that the way that it? Maybe? I don't know. Maybe other families experience that very differently. But yeah, of course it's like I'm happy to show up unless I have stuff going on now. You had a lot of stuff going on. That's the thing is is like I was like you just said I it was before my right before my 22nd birthday. I was out of the house.

Lynn: 8:42

You were out of the house. And actually that particular evening and I will never forget it because we don't get many snow storms here. I mean, we live in the mountains of western North Carolina, but it was starting to snow and there's this thing I love about knowing there's a snowstorm we had some friends that were just down the street that were supposed to come over for dinner and, you know, they could get home even if it's snowed and it was gonna be a big snowstorm. And the snow was just starting to fall when you called. And I was so happy to be just settling in and having dinner with friends and not have to go anywhere for a very long time. Yeah. And you lived four and a half hours away. And after that phone call where you told me you had to go to rehab and that you were getting kicked out by your roommate and so forth. Man, Russ and I kicked into gear and Russ was amazing, because he was like, my, I was like, What do we do? And he goes, we're going to get in the car and we're going to go there. And I said, but it's snowing. And he goes, I know how to drive in the snow. And that was the longest Damn drive.

Jen: 9:40

I can only imagine especially since you had not really a whole lot. You're just like, oh my god.

Lynn: 9:45

Well, and on the rehab, on the Call rehab and and snow and driving in the snow. Yeah. So it took us a very long time to get there. It wasn't a four and a half hour drive. You know, because it snowed. It was one of those snowstorms at one life we got out of it in the mountains of the entire state of North Carolina. was getting dumped on. So we drove and one of the layers of learning, I will never forget this either is I was on the phone the entire time calling everybody I knew what to do, because I had never thought about rehab. Right. I didn't know the difference between rehab A versus rehab B, what works, what doesn't, how much it costs. You know what the chances of success are, how to even get you there. None of that was true. But I did have a work colleague who had been through this herself and understood rehab run by addicts. I also had people who had rehab run by clinicians. And so I'd call them people in the medical field and they'd be wanting to send me off to like where the I hate to say this, but the science way of doing it was. And then I had somebody saying go to the street level way of doing it, and you know, that I had to listen and pay attention. Did my own guidance system which way to go? Right. So yeah, we made We made it to the hotel. Are we going to tell that story about the guy? story? Yeah,

Jen: 11:11

yeah. So you you finally found like a rehab now you started calling all your other friends now. I think that's interesting because not a lot of people will do that even in their situation because they have a lot of times they're like, well, I don't want anybody know what knowing what's going on in my life. Yeah, you know, so kind of at the time, like, what was you you went into shock a little bit when I called you and you're like, I have no idea what to do. Do you remember and maybe you don't and that's okay. But do you remember like what was going on in your head? Were you worried about what people were thinking of you or you just focused on, on like the solution to the problem?

Lynn: 11:58

You know, what was interesting? Yes, I was worried. And one of the people I called, I called my sister and her husband because he is a doctor, and I thought he would have some ideas about where to go and so forth. And I really trusted them not to judge me, but there's still that feeling of I screwed up. And it's almost like, I'm having to bare my soul. You know, I'm, I'm such a screw up that I can't even raise a daughter that can stay clean. And so there was definitely some of that going on. For sure.

Jen: 12:30

Yeah, yeah. And, and so I imagine that you probably only called specific people you're, well, we didn't really have faced with this, how long ago it goes, I think we're dating ourselves, but we didn't really have Facebook or anything, but you weren't like, posting on, on social media about about, you know, what was going on and and now, you know, at the time before we get into the story of the guy, you know, at the time, so you were You had a really good, like professional job did. Were you worried about any of that stuff? Oh, yeah. Like, did you kind of let people in at the time in terms of of your work life? Did you let anybody in knowing what was going on with you? Or did you just go back to work? The You know, when we when we finally got myself into a situation and you went back home and you just had to go back to living your life? I mean, I'm sure you didn't show up Monday morning, telling everybody what was happening, right?

Lynn: 13:34

Well remember by then I had started my own firm. Oh, okay. It is not at work. You know, I remember I used to work at a bank, but now I was on my own. So it was clients. And it was, you know, it was interesting, because this is juxtapose with Right about the time I was starting to figure out and it took me a while because this was 2007. Right? And yeah, I had owned my own firm since 99. We're actually since 2001.

Jen: 13:59

Yeah, it was Like 2000 Well, this was like, this was the snowstorms, probably like in 2005.

Lynn: 14:04

Okay, that makes sense. Because I was thinking, gosh, I would have thought I'd learned this by them. But I was still actually learning that nobody but me owned my calendar, right. So when you work in corporate, and your calendar is kind of owned by the collective, you feel like if tell everybody, like you want to keep things secret, but you kind of like can't have disappearances. Like, you have to explain your absences.

Jen: 14:27

Right. Yeah,

Lynn: 14:28

right. But during this time, I was not having to explain my absences. But because of so much programming over the years that you do, that, I would often tell my clients things that actually were none of their business, you know, because you can actually hide things and you can overshare too. Yeah. And so I had an amazing group of clients at that point. I had been I was working in New York City a fair bit in Washington DC a lot but the clients I worked with were really real people. So selectively actually did Share it, not to everybody, right? Because I didn't think everybody could, you know, as they say handle the truth, right. But I did have a couple of clients that I felt like could handle it. And the main thing that I had to think about was, can I show up for you? While I'm having to show up for my daughter, and feel like my life is coming to an end,

Jen: 15:21

right? Oh, yeah. And I just want to say, you know, for those that are watching that has ever gone through this, I get asked this question a lot is do you think that the people that like me who are on drugs, and in doing all this stuff, do you think that they realize what they're doing to their families? And you know, I'll answer that right now, since we're talking about that. The answer is no. I had zero idea how my life and what was going on at the time was impacting you and what you were going through Like, I'm still learning what you went through during this time period, like and vice versa. And I'm asking diff, right and I'm asking different questions in this podcast that I haven't asked you before. And I'm getting even more insight as we're sitting here talking going Holy crap, I had never even considered like, you having your set of clients is in having to show up now that I have my own business. Yeah. And I think about my clients and like what goes on in my life and how my life can very much impact you know, that world and and how I'm able to show up? The answer is no, I had not really known what you were experiencing at that time. So, you know, for that, if anyone ever has that question, the answer is no, they don't know. They don't they can ever know. They could never know I'll never know the depths of what you went through. During my addiction and so now that was that was a long segue into this this guy, this guy at the hotel so you you finally had someone lead you into this this particular rehab, this rehab that I went to I won't name names, but it was a great rehab and it was an It was a rehab that was run by addicts for addicts. It was not a clinical approach. And I really actually appreciated that, you know, I still look back on that and I get to know a lot of the rehabs and how they're run and the clinical stuff and, and in my mind, it's like, you know, I went to a pretty good rehab I feel like that was run for attics by addicts and and you got your first introduction.

Lynn: 17:50

Man, I got it in an instant. So after the first of many sleepless nights, you know in the Holiday Inn in Wilson, North Carolina. I get up and I Actually was using the hotel phone. I don't even remember what kind of cell phone I added 2005 but you know, it was probably some kind of like little flip phone or whatever. Yeah. And so I used I was actually on the hotel phone, I think calling, you know, long distance with a long distance card still, and everything seems so archaic to say that

Jen: 18:17

iPhones were even invented at this particular time. I know, we didn't know that we're dating ourselves. But

Lynn: 18:23

I called and I got ahold of this guy. And I was very much still in my like, you know, corporate mindset. So I was like, Hello, I'm Lynn and I would like to book a room for my daughter who has told me she's on drugs. And he goes, Well, aren't you the good little mommy? And I will just never forget this. And I was like, cool. What? Yes. And then he proceeded to tell me kind of everything, almost everything I needed to know about being the parent of an addict in a way. I said, I said, so. I said, Well, I just you know, do you Have a place for her and he goes, he goes, What makes you think she's coming? And I was like, well, cuz I'm told her she needs to go there. And he told me here and, and he goes, and I and then I said, I drove through a snowstorm last night to get here and he goes, how much you want to bet she's already high. And I said, it's only like eight o'clock in the morning.

Jen: 19:24

When has that ever stop us?

Lynn: 19:25

Exactly? He said something to that effect. And and I was standing when I started talking to him, and I started sinking down on the bed. And he just like in 15 minutes, kind of schooled me. But it was interesting because something about it went in. Yeah, instead of fighting him, I listened and it was really weird because listening wasn't my strong suit.

Jen: 19:48

No, I will attest to that. You You know he was pretty rough around the edges. I met him later on obviously when I actually did did go to to rehab and he was a little, he was a little rough. And I mean, he was very pointed and I had my whole life. I had watched you cut people down. I mean, not in a bad way. But what I mean is is like, you are that pointed person as well as you were like you intimidated, you know a lot of people including myself, and he was pretty intimidating. So yeah, he I could have totally seen you go the other way where you're like, not my daughter, not, you know, like, you would have gotten a little bit more of like, wait, just a damn.

Lynn: 20:39

window. We want to say this is just a damn minute

Jen: 20:41

just a damn minute moment. We have one of like one of like, character traits, even with your own mom. Like who do

Lynn: 20:49

you think? Do you think

Jen: 20:50

wait just a damn minute. I mean, yeah, no, that

Lynn: 20:53

was it's actually a miracle that didn't happen. I consider that a gift from God that something opened up because listened. And I listened because I think that was the base move that began to allow you to make choices for you. And the only way that was going to happen is if I set the conditions for that. Yeah. And had I, I'm really convinced and had I continued to be, I hate to use the word but it's kind of self righteous, like, yeah, I'm right, you're wrong. I don't have to hear a word. You're saying. Just do it my way. If I stuck with that, I feel like you would have had to continue to rebel against that.

Jen: 21:32

Well, and I think you know, even for what I see in those moments, I think in that moment, you knew as smart as you are as educated as you are as your ability to stand up for yourself for other people, like all of that stuff. That can sometimes when you go into an area of the unknown can sometimes be really detrimental and what you do In that moment was you decided, I have no fucking clue what to do. Maybe I should listen to someone that knows this stuff because this was not our world. You know, I think a lot of people grow up kind of in this world and be very familiar. But this was not this wasn't anything that either one of us I don't think grew up thinking they would ever experience you know, like we came from a from a good family we were the we were the church at every Sunday now we were you know,

Lynn: 22:36

I call it the Leave it to Beaver family and kind of work and we didn't you know, we, you know, I teach a self awareness program where I've had hundreds of people come through and learned most people have somewhere in their family either. Alcoholic alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, physical or mental abuse. You know, so many people experience that and we had not had back we didn't have the you know drunk person you know even if it was the drunk uncle or whatever I

Jen: 23:06

we didn't any we didn't have that no

Lynn: 23:08

we were we were very much sort of Leave it to Beaver everything is good. And so that was pretty shocking to me to not know what to do but but I have to tell you I'm still kind of surprised I listened because I'm afraid, you know there's a game called Balderdash. Because

Jen: 23:25

Yeah,

Lynn: 23:27

I can I can put the bluster on with the best of them. Yeah, yeah. And so the fact that I actually like, let that in and listen and head somehow. And of course, Russ was incredibly supportive. And, you know, I have to do a huge shout out to an adult pink show mine, Melissa McNair, who's one of my colleagues, she's the one who actually helped me find the place to go and who is just a very, very wise woman and yeah, with her kind of support. You know, I had You know, even though she wasn't my, per se, coach, she kind of was right. It was my, you know, if you don't have a guide to navigate the unknown, you really are like taking one step at a time in the fog. And if you don't have a lot of trust on your inner guidance, which I did and at the time, then there's a really good chance you're gonna step off a cliff. Yeah,

Jen: 24:21

yeah. And I think you know, especially in something like this, where it goes so far beyond like this, it has very little to do with the parenting role. You know, this is a lot. This is a parent that it is it is like you still had to parent me but as a as a 20. Now, 22 year old person, your job as a parent is over now, it's your job, kind of to just support and guide and whatever else that that kind of means. Well, you know what,

Lynn: 24:57

here's how I've come to think of it and I'm sure it's because I've got this filter. You know, we all live in a filter bubble, right? Yeah. And I teach leadership, I work with leaders. And, you know, I really want people to be able to lead in a way that isn't through fear and intimidation. It's not my case. Yeah, it's not through, power over or under but power with. And that means setting up the conditions for people to like work together. And you set the conditions for people to make really great choices and work with very senior leaders where they have to count on they put their entire careers in the hands of other people to run yes to run the thousands and thousands of people that are out of their control. And that is x actually exactly what a parent with a child and addiction has to do. Yeah. Is your It feels like the stakes are so high because it's your child's life. Yeah, but it is you you have to set the conditions for them to make good choices. Yeah,

Jen: 25:48

yeah. And not and not be in that constant state of survival. Monks, we talked about that some where it's like if you're in survival mode, all the time, even though your child's life is Kind of at stake here, then your decisions may not be as clear. It's not clear as survival

Lynn: 26:08

mode is designed to literally keep you alive. Yeah. But it keeps it's tunnel vision. And so it's like you don't see all your choices and you have no repertoire. Yeah. And the thing that having somebody like Melissa to work with and have no, the support I had of Russ, and for sure, have really strong life of prayer. We are never going to take that away. But to have that help me guide through is the only thing that made it work.

Jen: 26:39

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm excited. I want to fast forward because Okay, so before, you had no idea that I had an a problem, an issue or any sort of addiction. Now, you know, that this is the thing, and I've went to rehab. Yeah, I stayed clean for two years about that. And then things kind of started falling on throw. In the meantime, I had met a boy. I had married said boy,

Lynn: 27:14

he was a boy.

Jen: 27:16

And Mary said boy, and we are not doing well, in terms of our recovery, staying clean any of that stuff. And so now we go off the rails. And we had live pretty long into not long it was a few months, there was a hard few months for us. It goes down fast on it, it you know, we did pretty good at first. And then things when things started going downhill, things started going downhill pretty fast. Now, I was starting to do things, even in my own life that I had never imagined myself doing. And of course, I you know, I look back and it's like, I Even at the time, it's like I wanted to blame. You know, my now he's my ex husband, but I wanted to blame him for everything. And, you know, I look back I'm like, Well, I made a lot of decisions for myself, but it was really easy to do now. I guess my question or my thoughts and throwing it back into your corner is now that you know that I like I'm susceptible to this and I'm in recovery, and I'm an addict. When did you start noticing red flags? Then? slower than I should?

Lynn: 28:38

So it was interesting because I, you know, I was working up in the DC area, you lived in the DC area, we would go meet each other for dinner a lot. Yeah. And then the night before I found out that you guys had gone really off the rails. You canceled a dinner with me. And this was following you, having called me hysterical about having had your TV stolen, and it was wasn't used so but I think

Jen: 29:01

No, it was actually stolen. Oh, okay. No, that was actually that was real. That was a real No, no look, you probably you probably were like, Oh, she totally lied to you. I know

Lynn: 29:09

I looked back on at the time. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, but no, that was a real thing with that cockamamie story. I didn't know it's cockamamie at the time you did a good job on

Jen: 29:17

so good. You're a good liar.

Lynn: 29:20

means that you know, I ran off the road and it didn't Oh, yes dog and it hurt my car. And, and again, you know, I was I was really burning the candle on both ends. Yeah. professionally and well, both professionally and you know, yeah, there's always that background worry. And I'm telling you the worry cost me a lot of sleep and sleep costs you everything. I mean, I Oh yeah. huge believer in sleep and so I was tired and when you canceled the dinner, I was kind of I was staying in downtown DC for the first time at a hotel I had been in a while and I was actually relieved because I was going to go back and have this lovely dinner at the hotel and not have to drive an hour back after For dinner, I could just go up to my room and fall asleep. And I actually remember at that dinner that night, you know, by myself in the, you know, I was probably reading a newspaper or a magazine or something and, you know, feeling everything was fine. Yeah. And the next morning when I couldn't get ahold of you, I did something I never do. I was meeting with a client. We had, we're having a one on one where the phones never come out. But I had my little flip phone, and I'm gonna put this here because my daughter hurt her car, and I'm gonna have to help her and I just need to coordinate with her. And then that meeting ended. And then, you know, a series of events unfolded where I was able to find out that you were back on drugs, but it was because I couldn't. I called you in your phone all of a sudden was disconnected, right? Because we still had landlines mostly. Yeah. And then you didn't answer your cell phone and you were supposed to be packing and moving because y'all lost your apartment.

Jen: 30:52

Yeah, we were moving in with his

Lynn: 30:54

and then and then I had to change my fly. And that's a whole story in and of itself. We won't go into here. But, you know, when I, when I started, like putting two and two together, it really came in when I walked into your apartment. Yeah. And I saw, really, I'd never I, I had been, you know, she's moving. And so I had a picture in my life of what life should look like. And it was going to be boxes against the wall mostly labeled and neat and ready to go for moving, which

Jen: 31:23

I've never moved that way. By the way.

Lynn: 31:27

This is how we live in our own filter bubble right in my own bubble on how things should go. And there was a pan of eggs on the counter a full pan, there was not a single space on the counter or the carpet in the entire house.

Jen: 31:40

Yeah, it was pretty messy. It was

Lynn: 31:42

a landfill. It was like walking into a landfill. Yeah, it's pretty messy. And it was I'll never forget because the apartment woman that let me in and it wasn't a breach of privacy. I was on your lease. Yeah, she had the right to let me in. And I walk in and I was like, Oh my gosh, and she goes Ah, do you think their drugs. I said I do now.

Jen: 32:05

Yeah, yeah.

Lynn: 32:06

And again, it was like you calling me but it was like, and it's interesting because something clicks in me. Yeah. And I really do. It happens in skiing. It happens everywhere. I'm under pressure. I actually do have like a, you know, a red light. The red light comes on, and I know how to show up. Yeah, you do this very at that moment. It was like I was a whole like, you were like, I go from denial to performer. You. You did and i was i was in denial. But then I went into like

Jen: 32:33

you did and now I want to talk about this. And now so so as soon as the red the red light goes on, you're out of denial. Yeah. Can you look back with 2020 vision? Before you thought everything was fine. You look back at it. And could you see where you're like, Oh, that makes so much more sense. Now, now that I'm aware of like, you know what has been going on for the past few months, because as soon as you call it so you call me and you asked me dead dead to like, basically dead to rights. Oh, are you? Are you on drugs? You asked me and I had known that you were in my apartment. So I was like, I don't think it makes any sense to be lying now. Well, but you got quiet. I pause because and this is my pause. One is I actually, I think I was stoned. And I was a little fuzzy. And I did pause in the pause was mostly me evaluating my options because I had gotten so caught into lying. I was like, do I want to try to keep digging or is this the moment that I'm going to face everything and actually be honest and let it go and then allow people to help me from here. And so this was that was my moment of going which way am I going to try to go? And because the night before and literally the night before, after calling you and going through the whole thing and like, because why I didn't show up, to be honest was because I was so high I had gotten high all day I was so high that I knew that I could not show up to that dinner. I had every intention up until the moment that I called you to show up to that dinner. And then it was like Welcome to Hi. And as we were sitting there and I was not showing up, and I was sitting in the bathroom and I just had this like kind of piece wash over me that night. That that night before and going I think I'm in trouble and I am going to die. Yeah, like that night before I knew without a shadow of a doubt that I was going to end up dying and where I was at in my life I I looked around and I'm like my body is giving out on me if I don't overdose, which was very close, if I don't overdose, I think I'm like my heart just gonna quit. And I don't think my heart can handle what I'm doing to it for more than two or three more weeks at the rate like we were going so I knew I was gonna die and I was actually kind of okay with it. That's the truth is like I was completely okay in that moment. dying because I had no other way out. In my mind, I didn't know any other solution. And that pause was me evaluating my options, and going. I think that if I'm honest, at this moment, I can actually maybe get help. And it was that moment where it was like, are you gonna keep trying to go down this road? Or are you gonna start choosing life? And so in that pause that it's kind of a brief pause. It felt like an eternity to me. It answered the question for me. And then the next words out of my mouth was yes. And then I just kept like, I just opened the floodgates of all the stuff that we had been lying and bullshitting and, and what was really going on and all the stories that had been going on for like, like, I didn't hold anything back at that moment. There's no sense in it, you know, there's no sense in anymore trying to stop this. But once I got honest, and I was telling you were there times in which you could look back, hindsight being 2020, and going, those conversations now make a whole lot more sense or red flags that happened prior to you actually walking into that apartment. Did that start making sense to you? Well,

Lynn: 37:24

yes. But I have to also confess that I think the only signals that I was getting were the big ones because I just didn't know so the big signal later I learned was when you said you weren't going to meetings anymore. Now that should have been for me it was like a little like, barely a twinge. What What should it when it should have been a flashing red? Or maybe you don't need those meetings and I and you know, well, here's okay. Goodness, I don't know that I've ever thought about this before. But let me just be really transparent truth. be told. I kind of wanted it to mean, Oh, she wasn't really ever an addict. Um, and so now if she's not going to meetings, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to be the parent of an addict, right? And it was just a little blip. And everything will be fine. Like, that's in a way it's a return to denial and that numbness and yeah. Now that I'm really working on a tuning myself to signals, and really understanding how to read things, and this is of course, not just in the in the world with you.

Jen: 38:37

Right, just budgeted.

Lynn: 38:38

Yeah, just in terms of refining my own skills. I wonder how many signals I got that I missed because they were so friggin much noise going on in my head. Yeah. And so much wishing that it didn't have to be what it was.

Jen: 38:53

Well, there was times and it's like, I look back and this is why I asked because I'm like, how did you not see This filming leg out no because like we you had even so there was a trip that I had gone to go see in Texas in the middle of all this. I lost a whole bunch of weight. I was a hot mess. You remember like I had hurt my hand? I had hurt my hand and I had covered it up. Yeah, but I mean I don't even know if we've ever talked about this but that was a lie. Maybe

Lynn: 39:30

we find out live these things but I'm not surprised it's tit for tat I guess

Jen: 39:36

we never really talked about that in terms of like, you know No, like I had Bruce my hand I there wasn't there was a bruise but it wasn't from hitting. Yeah. My hand on car parts like I had said, but oh yes. I remember that. Yeah, like I had, I had slam the mic, my hand and car parts, which was actually not true, but I did have a bruise on my hand. Yeah, and I don't really want to go into it now

Lynn: 40:02

what's not going away is about that's it. This is enough.

Jen: 40:08

Surprise. This is the thing. It's like how could you not have seen all of those and, but but, you know not to not to like, you know, come down on you but that's how far we go into like our

Lynn: 40:24

world was so here's like, you know we this happened yesterday I saw yellow Volkswagen, oh yeah in the filter and so forth, right? Had I opened myself up to say I need to be looking for signals that my daughter's on drugs that my daughter's okay that my daughter is doing better, right? If I had opened that filter up, right, he would have had a chance, but I didn't want to know what I didn't want to know. And yeah, I didn't even know I needed to know it. You know, so I just didn't know and I didn't know certain things like six Like, you know, watch for crazy bruises or, or look for certain ways that people are dilated or right, you know, tune into lies, you know, like pay attention to whether the story hangs together or not. Right? You know, you and I had actually gone through when you were younger, you were pretty good at lying. I've always been great at it. And then we went through some things that got you to kind of come back to being honest with me. And again, I just wanted it to be over I didn't want to have to worry about that anymore. And that's just nonsense. That's just childlike thinking. Yeah, that's what I was caught

Jen: 41:35

him in. And you said that you you're like, well, I just wanted to move on if I'm not going to meetings, and maybe I'm not really an addict. For sure. What would that have meant? If If what one is is like, okay, so one, one side is okay, I'm an addict. And your feelings about that. The other side is is what could you have If that like actually was true, if maybe I wasn't an addict?

Lynn: 42:05

Well, of course, it would have meant that for me, it would actually have meant the end of worry. Right, right. So when you quit going to meetings, I actually took that as a signal to quit worry, you're like, yes. You know, I

Jen: 42:17

wouldn't need that anymore. Never was.

Lynn: 42:20

No, it was, um, you know, being raised by a world champion warrior in my mind. Yeah. Um, what I liked was things that kept me from having to worry is like, just don't add any more worry to my life. Right. And so that, believe it or not, I took it the exact opposite of the way I should have, which is okay, well, I'll have to worry about that anymore. She's not got my mom. Yeah. And then as soon as I'm thinking, I'm not worrying anymore. I'm not looking anymore. Yeah. And that's when life contend to come back and bite you in the head. Yeah. Yeah. So because we're just not trained in that. And, yeah, I've I've, I'm a reformed I've actually learned to make I've learned to make worry my friend because I actually now treat those things that I used to worry about as signals to either do something about or let go. Yeah, but I don't do it. willy nilly. I've changed dramatically in that realm because of our experience together.

Jen: 43:16

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know that you had changed dramatically. This last time, like kind of like when you set set me down, and you were, this was like, the day of when you when I found when you found me, you told I told so after that pause. Yeah, I got really honest, that was the same and then it was and then you found you came and you found me at at my enlace. I did. And we had a very hard, difficult conversation. I don't I can't remember that whole day. I do. But But I mean, I only remember I can't remember everything you even said but I do. Remember. I know Well, I remember this is in this is what Pierce, you know, kind of in my head. This is I think, when things became very clear for me and in and in our relationship was when you looked at me and you said, Did I have a pretty good life? I'm going to learn how to live my life without you if I have to. And you did tell me you were going to help me one more time. I did. And that was like, how I chose to live my life. After that was completely up to me. And I think what got me in that, like, in that moment, was not so much what you were saying, but the feeling behind it because I knew you actually meant it.

Lynn: 44:52

Yeah, well, the the thing I meant there was a piece of context that came before that. I think that was the hardest thing for me to say. And it's this it was that, you know, I said, you probably do have a lot of resentments against me because yeah, I was anything perfect mother and you have every right to be pissed at me. Yeah, and I'm ready to face anything.

Jen: 45:16

And that dad didn't make a big moment for me and

Lynn: 45:20

I have a pretty damn good life. And I think I said if you if you were trying to kill yourself to get back at me look at my life. It's pretty damn good. And I'm strong enough to live without you. Because you're going to be the one that's dead.

Jen: 45:36

And that that one struck me and I knew that you meant it. That's the difference is is like I think people say some things in a bluff way but I knew that you really meant it. And I think it was when you said that you have every right to be pissed at me. I think that took the ownership back and put it on me. Yeah, you know where it's like I had to learn how to deal with with myself. My anger or whatever it was that I was trying to do. I'm not even entirely sure what I was trying to do most of it was subconscious. You know, like, well, isn't it usually right Really? Like I

Lynn: 46:09

wasn't in denial, right? worrying consciously it was Yeah,

Jen: 46:13

it was just yeah, it was all that very subconscious. But when you said that it kind of made me really have to take some ownership and take some, some hard looks at some things. And you know, we we have I mean, we could probably go on all day all day. We have so many freakin stories and wait, we'll have to do another one of these because here's and here's one thing, though, that I do want to talk about because this was, this is you know, it's in the stigma and it's all about really just speaking your truth, and really owning because like, if you feel shame, if you feel guilt, if you feel all of that stuff, then oftentimes that's what we can do. We stigmatize these things. Yeah. Now afterwards, obviously, at one point, you were like, okay, I don't want to have to worry about you. You're not going to meet And basically, you're like, Oh, you maybe you're not an addict. Well, now after this round, becomes things would become very clear. And so just kind of like summarize, we'll just, we'll timebox it. That first year of me being clean again. What were like what was going on with you like what was different about this time than than what it was before? Because there was a big difference even with us our relationship, the way we handled things, all of that stuff.

Lynn: 47:41

I'm gonna say the biggest change was that as not 100% of the time, but as often as possible. I was trying to help you see your choices.

Jen: 47:52

Yeah.

Lynn: 47:54

Rather than try to make your choices for you. Right? And it was the hardest thing I've ever done. So a lot of time during those prayers. It was almost as if I could hear God's voice saying, because I'd want to come get you because you were

Jen: 48:14

Yeah, I was still with my, my ex husband. He wasn't my ex husband is my husband

Lynn: 48:19

at the time. And I will never forget telling this story to somebody and he said, I don't believe I could leave my daughter in that circumstance, I would have to go get her. And he didn't. It he, whether he meant it or not, I felt some shame. I felt like he was telling me I wasn't a good enough mother to not come and get in the car and come and take you out of there. And it was at moments like that, that I really had to like, turn it to the spirit, right and say, Okay, what do I do? And the answer every single time was you let me be God. Yeah. And I will take care of you. I will take care of her. And that's in life and death.

Jen: 49:04

Yeah. Yeah. And I you know, I can't I didn't know that that was what was going on at the time because I'm trying to live my own life. But it was the best thing that I could have done even for myself was really face my choices and take responsibility for my life like basically for like, you kind of took the safety net away for the first time and for the first time in my whole life, my safety net wasn't there and even when I tried to figure out if it was still there or not, you basically allowed me to know that you were there to help me and support me and we were going to have a relationship, but you are no longer my safety net. And when I learned that you are no longer my safety net and you are aren't going to support and enable My poor decisions. So it wasn't even about drugs. No. Sometimes it was about like, Oh, Mom, I can't pay my car insurance. Well, I couldn't pay my car insurance because I still had poor spending. That's exactly right.

Lynn: 50:16

You were you're a lot of those things went over and yeah, and letting you like get out of credit card debt. Yeah, you know, there was a part of me that wanted just to like, write a check and get you clean, get you recorded, and then let you go. But I have to say something that and this was probably something I learned later, but or heard later, but I remember when Oprah went to Haiti, and Sean pan was helping people get after the hurricane back on their feet, and she goes, I can write a check for everybody and we can just call it even and they'll get back on their feet. And he says, that's the worst thing you can do. It is because they won't have built the muscles to be strong with their finances. And I think knew enough to say, you know, you'll just get yourself back in there we've got to help you like you getting yourself out was the way you built the strength to keep yourself from going there

Jen: 51:09

and I needed the strength I needed to know how to manage my money. That's right and if you kept coming in and like bailing me out every time I got into financial problems now I will say that even after that year, I must say look, I'm a whole lot better at my finances now. Oh, no, you're crazy. I mean, I mean not like it's not like I have all of this money or anything like that, but you can give me just a little bit well, and I know how now to kind of budget and figure some stuff out not that I you know, I will ever sit here and claim perfection on on some of that stuff. But, but I will say that I'm a whole lot better now at my finances, then than I was in it because I learned how to do it. But there was a lot for me that I had to learn how to Do and I had to do it for for myself. And you allowed me that because my whole life I never knew how to do it because you were always there.

Lynn: 52:09

I was always there and I was always taking care of you. So I didn't have to feel bad about my mother. Yeah. And so the thing is, I'm kind of even putting a little bit of us together, as we're talking right now is just the gift you give to show somebody their own strength and then the opportunity to build their own muscles is priceless. Absolutely. And my strength is to be able to stand by and let you make mistakes. Yeah, because it doesn't mean I'm a bad mother. In fact, it's the opposite.

Jen: 52:39

Yeah, and I think like, you know, we talk a lot in languages and is an important thing. It's, it's huge when it comes to people wanting and I look at something like this and it's like, well, this is kind of why. You know, I started my my own business in in I love At people that really struggle when other people tell them, you have to let them hit rock bottom. Well, that's really, really scary to think about letting people hit their rock bottom, because for many people, they think that that's just going to be death, or they're going to get really close to it. And a

Lynn: 53:17

lot of times, actually, it is, and it is hard news

Jen: 53:19

is the hard news, how ever what I will say is, instead of saying that, we say what we just talked about, which is like, allow people in their choices so they can learn how to get out of it, and let them figure it out. Because for me, that's what saved my life was letting me figure it out.

Lynn: 53:46

Well, you know that you and I both talked about that. The backcourt change equation, which says that, for any change, there's always resistance. Oh, yeah. But if you have dissatisfaction times, vision, time First Steps be greater than that resistance. Yes, you can actually get over the resistance. And you kind of didn't have a good picture of a different life. Any idea what to do? I had no idea what to do. And this the lack of the safety net. So those were almost zero. Yeah. And so if those are zero, nothing's going anywhere, but the lack of a safety net, caused you to really be dissatisfied. Oh, yeah. And so that number got very big. And if you've got a one and a one and a and a million, then yeah, and the resistance is only 500,000. You're going to get somewhere and so I feel like helping you be dissatisfied and not giving you, you know, allows me to change and there's another saying, and I've heard it in the horse world, but I think it actually may have come from outside of the horse world. And it's like, because we, when we're training, I'm not just learning this, but you want the horse to make his own choice. You want him to face his fears. You have that horse You know, you don't want to have to worry about that. And you the saying is you want to make the right things easy and the wrong things hard,

Jen: 55:07

right.

Lynn: 55:08

And in a lot of ways, that's what I did for you is I made the right things easier in the wrong things hard. Yeah. And that way, but you were still making the choice. It's like your choice. Yeah. But there's hell over there. And there's a way out over here. Yes. Where do you want to go?

Jen: 55:22

Yeah. And, you know, to, to kind of close. So because this is a lot about like stigma is, is if you could tell anybody that's either experiencing this or maybe it's not this situation in particular. But like when it comes to stigma, like or even people just really being able to empower, empower themselves, really, because this is really what this is, is like you're empowering yourself. Yes. Well What would you say to them? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot. That's a big thing. It's okay thing, but there's two.

Lynn: 56:07

Okay, there's two pieces to this. Okay? Actually, I always think about three things that I think about having something in your pocket. Yes, something that can get you back. And then something that is like going to keep you from getting out of balance in the first place, if you will. And the thing to have in your pocket is to assume I, you know, I did a TED talk to assume positive intent. Now, what does that look like when your child's on drugs and when, but it's for yourself? It's assume that right now, you don't need to go into your past. Because assuming positive intent is the easy button to find and your curiosity and listening to what's going on? Yeah, if we're not assuming positive intent, we're reaching into our old bag of tricks, and we think we know and that was my whole bag of tricks was denial and worry. Instead of curious and going, huh, I wonder what it means when somebody gets off of or quits going to meetings. I wonder if I should look into I wasn't curious at all. So start just buy in if you can, you don't have to assume positive intent to be curious. But I think it gets you there faster, you're not beating yourself up and you're not beating them up, right? Just stop with a beating up. Right? Assume that there's something you can learn and do. There's always another move. But it can only happen if you're not looking in your past, you need to look at your next move. That's number one. Number two is do your work. And what I mean by do your work is all of us were conditioned and programmed. And we have assumptions and beliefs and filters such that are our driving the way we are. And the work that I have done through all the different coaches has been on believably helpful for me to realize that not always the same thing. I don't always have to and it's so ingrained in your muscle memory that I don't care how much you think you know, something, it's not necessarily going to be at your disposal when you're in pressure. Yeah, so, and there's no greater pressure than thinking you're going to lose your child. So do your work and learn how to do this under pressure. So that you can be at your best when it feels like you might be at your worst. And then the third thing I would say is, whatever your spiritual tradition is, whatever you believe in terms of a higher power, I believe the message for all of them is that God is welcoming you with open arms and he loves you. Mm hmm. And I believe that true faith is trusting that instead of trying to prove it to everybody else, because your soul is between you and God, and so I feel like people need to take a moment I'm looking at your background with the stars. Take a moment to look at the creator of the universe. However your tradition tells you that came to be Yeah, and realize that you were you are small and yet matter and that size of the universe and if you will actually rest on that, then you don't have to ask people outside of you to tell you if you're okay. And shame is thinking that you're not okay. And that you don't belong. Yeah. And you do. And whatever it takes for you to get to that place, I'd say get there. Yeah.

Jen: 59:18

And so it's kind of like, beyond our experience. When the minute that someone feels like shame or guilt about anything, it doesn't have to be about this but, but really anything. It's that programming. Yeah, that we're kind of in and it's like, when we can embrace of just what is versus having to put you know, negative connotations or living in our past or living in our conditioning or making up stories making us Midori we just make up crap.

Lynn: 59:53

We're like makeup crap, so we don't have

Jen: 59:55

to not know right? Yeah. And it's like being willing to be curious and Assume positive intent and it's not assume positive intent that everything is okay. No, it's just assuming that you're okay with whatever it is,

Lynn: 1:00:12

and that there's something to learn and that that you can handle it. Like I feel like we I feel like the uncertainty in our world today is a is a toxic brew, if you haven't trained yourself to deal with Oh, absolutely. I think it produces a lot of anxiety. Oh, absolutely. And I'm a huge believer, a huge believer that we need to learn to manage our anxiety, but I don't think we need any kind of medication to do it. I think we can practice it. Yes. And I think one of the places to start is to get yourself in nature. Yeah. And so you know, and I realized that when I say something like, you know, figure out where you fit in the universe, yeah, that's a big one. But there are tools and there are people and there are places but you know, practices like breathing. Absolutely. Learning how to like truly get quiet in your mind and meditating. journaling, reflection, you know, learning how to do those things and having somebody that can teach you to do those things. I just saw something on CBS This Morning. I think it was this morning, CBS This Morning talking about people in war torn areas like Syria. They're bringing meditation and breathing and practices in for these people who are refugees that have lost everything. And they're having people instantly feel better. Oh, yeah. Lee be able to manage all the uncertainty of having lost everything. Yeah. And the truth is, all of us can get through this if we are willing to let somebody and I think you do have to have help, but let somebody help you find the strength that's within you. You have it. Yes, you have it, but you sometimes need somebody to show you how to unlock it or as I say, unleash it.

Jen: 1:01:52

Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's there. So speaking of unleashed year, you actually have your own pocket. Cast. I do yeah. And it's called creative spirits unleashed. You can go find Lynn it any of the major things Spotify. I Heart Radio. We got you on iTunes and I mean it's been downloaded lots of time. Oh yeah it's great world. Yeah so you can go is you just type in creative spirits unleash or you can go check out when I invite you to actually get to know this woman even more and go go visit her website. It's Lynn Carnes. Calm Carnes is spelled ca r ne s. And she has some amazing content on there. She, we have we had a podcast, you know, we used to work together and now still up. It's a call my boss, my mom so you can hear even more of our stories. She's the mom and the boss. My boss, my mom. Yeah, so she was both my boss and my mom. And we have so That's good stories around that one in in in her podcast creative spirits and leash she talks a lot about with like other executives about this work about empowering yourself the confidence that it takes and you know we both have several different people that that help us yeah through finding our true selves and that's why it's called unleashes because we're all just trying to unleash the best versions of us. So anyway that's gonna be it really for this podcast. Thank you so much. I this will not be the only time that we do this. Well, it's fun I really enjoyed it.

Lynn: 1:03:41

This is yeah a fascinating experience. Although I have to tell you it's I thought I was gonna need some Kleenex I saw you again it really emotional at

Jen: 1:03:50

one point and and I was like, good or bad. I don't know. But I'm just letting it happen. Doesn't have to be good or bad. It was just happening. But it does. Get really emotional. And I think I think, you know, when we go into our story, there's just so many moments because it was just painful. And even, you know, we've we've done a lot of work and we've, you know, I'm so grateful for you at the end of the day for you doing your work because you're doing your work is what really, truly helps me kind of snapped out and you didn't do it for me, you did it for yourself, and I don't even think you meant to, but it happened and you focusing in on this stuff really helps me because you started becoming more confident and empowering yourself to the point where you knew what you had to do to do the same for me, which is provide that empowerment and that confidence in what I needed to gain from myself. So that was hugely powerful. And I'm forever grateful that you did that for you. And I would invite anyone to do that for themselves. We,

Lynn: 1:04:53

you know, you know, I think it goes back to the leader. You know, I was trying to do leadership work. Yeah, I was I did a whole nother story about how I sucked as a leader. Right. And me I needed would you work right, which we're going to go into in the next time we sit down. We helped, like, you know that probably the parenting Yeah, leadership or the same thing, same thing. Leadership is leadership. Yeah. Right. And so that's the cool part of this work. A lot of times you and I both work with people who are both leaders and parents. Yeah. There's a tremendous crossover.

Jen: 1:05:26

Absolutely, absolutely. So anyway, as usual, I challenge you guys to go tells at least five people about this podcast and share it with them because you never know who you're going to help or who needs to hear this. So if you want some more, I'm gonna put up some links. I'm going to do some good show, show notes. We're gonna have some exciting new things coming out for this particular podcast because this was a very special one and near and dear to my heart. And thank you again, go to Jennifer maneely.com My last name as you probably would never know how to spell that on your own is in a in e li, Jennifer maneely.com and you can go find some really cool stuff up there especially about this this podcast But anyway, I hope you guys have a great week let me know how you feel. Obviously you can also find me on all of the other socials as well. And and really looking forward to knowing what your comments are. If you have anything if you want to leave me a voicemail or if you just want to write me a message. I would love to hear from you. Let me know what you think. And just thank when again for for coming out here. So it's still so weird to call you Lynn but Thanks, Mom. But anyway, hope

Lynn: 1:06:49

you have a great week guys. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits on life podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with us I'm always learning in these conversations and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.