#26: Michele Stowe: A Leadership Development Junkie talks about Developing Leadership Superpowers
Michele Stowe has a thing or two to say about leading change. She also has a thing or two to say about a lot of the most joyous – and least fun – parts of corporate life.
From the title of the podcast, it’s probably no surprise to you that Michele Stowe is also a self-described comic book nerd. In our conversation, she tells us about how and why she decided to leverage a comic book tool in her coaching repertoire. It’s the kind of thing that makes you tap your forehead and ask “Why didn’t I think of that?”
If you have ever been through a corporate downsizing, whether on the receiving or “giving” end of it, her story about an early experience will hit home. Memories of several of my experiences came flooding back as she described her role, which happened very early in her career. I could just picture 22-year-old Michele wearing her only business suit telling bankers twice her age the reason their badge failed to operate that morning. The story shaped her in very important and useful ways, as we hear in this conversation.
This podcast is like a master class in leadership development and change management – and in taking risks. One of my favorite quotes was this:
“I can…try some experiments, fail, learn and try again, I can emerge to be someone completely different, I can emerge to be that someone that I was meant to be, or at least that I was meant to be for now.”
Michele has also learned a LOT about true motivation and purpose from working in Mercy Housing, led for many years by Sr. Lillian Murphy, one of my favorite people ever. You can hear Michele a talk titled “Annie Get Your Nun”.
Here’s what Michele has to say about herself:
For over 20 years, Michele Stowe has been guiding individuals, teams, and leaders of a wide range of organizations to create authentic, equitable, and fulfilling change, producing real, sustainable proven results.
Born in the US and raised in Germany, where she also lived and worked for many years, Michele graduated from Dickinson College in Pennsylvania and earned her Master's Degree in Organizational Psychology at Columbia University. Following an executive career at Fortune 100 companies that spanned almost two decades, in industries ranging from real estate to pharmaceuticals, she executed a professional pivot into the nonprofit sector, and became Chief Operating Officer of Mercy Housing.
A self-described "leadership development junkie," her diverse experience in the for-profit sector - opportunities to leverage her multinational background - helped stoke her professional philosophy, but it was her time at Mercy Housing where it caught fire. One of many achievements, Michele created a comprehensive talent management program for the company's leaders that structured everything from onboarding to succession planning, all wrapped around the organization's core values.
Five years ago, Michele brought her vast array of knowledge and experience to bear and founded SkyRocket LLC, a coaching and consulting service that leads clients through a dynamic and thought-provoking process. Drawing from her own C-Suite experience and incorporating research-based approaches that foster creativity and self-discovery, Michele is able to tap into the client's own resourcefulness to help them align and clarify goals, elicit solutions, and hold them responsible and accountable. Certified by the International Coaching Federation, Michele is also a Hogan Assessment practitioner and a highly sought-after speaker, offering these services to any size audience or venue through SkyRocket.
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Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I'm Lynn karns your host. For this episode I'm speaking with Michelle Stowe of skyrocket coaching. This conversation with so many really cool places. We started actually with talking about superpowers and how Michelle's own desire to find out other people's stories has led to one of her own superpowers, but also how she unleashes and helps other people unleash their superpowers. The other things that were really interesting was tearing some of her stories about her early career experiences that would have made even the most jaded person become even more jaded. And yet also some of her experiences that eventually has led her to the place where she is helping people as an executive coach, what you will see is how she has used the power of assuming positive intent, largely with the influence of her work with Mercy Housing, and one of my favorite people ever sister, Lillian Murphy, I really hope you enjoy this conversation. There are so many good insights in here. It's actually a coaching conversation in its own right, especially around how to live in and be in change. And you will learn so much from listening to Michelle stow of skyrocket coaching. So I look forward to hearing what you think about this podcast, you can always let me know by going to Lynn Curran calm. And on the podcast page, there's a little voicemail button. You can also find out other ways to contact me on that website. Let me know what you like and what you don't. And if you like this podcast, and if you get good value out of it, by all means, share it with your friends write it and even if you love the podcast, go ahead and hit that subscribe button. And then you will know every time a new podcast comes out. I look forward to hearing from you. Michelle, welcome to the podcast.
Michelle Stowe:
Land excited to be here. Thank you.
Lynn:
I you know, I just, we were just talking about how to start. And I never know how I'm going to start a podcast. But what came to me while I was thinking about us getting started, was something that you did several years ago, to help your coaching clients find out a little bit about themselves. And you have a very unique way of getting people's story out. And we all have a story. But you know, I also think sometimes it's hard for us to find our story or tell our story, because it doesn't necessarily feel safe. And you chose a different route called doing a comic book. So how the heck did you think of coming up with a comic book as a way to get people to tell the story of their lives?
Michelle Stowe:
Oh, fun. Well, I come by it naturally. I am a fully certified comic book nerd. We'll start there. And you know, growing up with comics, anyone who's read any comic book, The story is really liberating. There's this journey, there's this other world that you're in you have these superpowers you can be and become anything. And it just feels liberating and vibrant as you're reading these stories as a little kid. And many of the stories talk about you know, the kid who's weak, right, and gets bitten by a radioactive spider and develop these, you know, superpower strengths overnight. And don't we all wish that we could develop superpowers.
Lynn:
Especially fighter.
Michelle Stowe:
Exactly. Right, your friendly neighborhood spider man and you know, web slinging and flying around the city, it's exhilarating. And so as I began to learn about Adult Career theory, and how adults learn and change, right, we don't learn and change overnight from being bitten by a spider. But we do learn and change by experiments by learning and trying different things by finding a mentor by talking to folks who have assumed a new identity. And what does it mean to step into some brand new identity? And if we look at the hero's journey, right, so the the arc of the heroic journey, Joseph Campbell's theory of myth, right. We have been telling ourselves in in society these stories for years, whether it's Hercules or Luke Skywalker, the story is essentially the same. I may not know what my future looks like from where I'm sitting today. But if I can find a mentor, a new group of friends, try some experiments fail, learn and try again, I can emerge to be someone completely different, I can emerge to be that someone that I was meant to be, or at least that I was meant to be for now. And so now I'm a Jedi Knight. And now I'm, you know, this powerful spider web. And what I decided to do is to take the basic blocking of the story of how you emerge and how you move through change, and to cultivate that with my clients by asking them to fill out a blank comic book. Now, it's not like a big old, blank white sheet of paper, there are some prompts to help my clients along. And some fun graphics, a good friend of mine is an illustrator for Marvel that was helpful. So it's got a really nice look and feel to it. And so having the ability to then complete your own story in a heroic way, right, helps the at least what I've seen with my clients. Sometimes writing can be hard, but drawing can be easier. If I can sketch something, it triggers a different part of how I think about myself and my story. And so even if I'm very nearly done working with a client on their full journey, I'll then use the comic book to seal it. So that they have a chance to see how far they've come, what their future identity can look like, as they're stepping out into it. And what they've learned along the way. Because we keep repeating these experiments, right, as we evolve our careers. So having a way to commemorate that capture it, and have it be an illustrated story of your own heroic journey. It's been fun, but I think it's also helped clients to really visualize what they're hoping for and what they're aspiring to, to stick to stick with it.
Lynn:
We know that's an exact opposite approach to what a lot of times when we want to change we go to because it's so easy to look at, okay, well, here's my strikes, and here's my weaknesses, here's the things I'm not a superpower about. So then I try to fix that. And what you are describing is a way to call out the best in somebody. And to touch that thing that probably has been hidden because of you know, a lot of our socialization leads us to feel criticized and less than, you know, we get those red marks on our school grades, or, you know, you don't get picked for the team because you can't shoot the basket or whatever. But you're calling out the best in somebody saying, hey, you've got superpowers, let's find them.
Michelle Stowe:
Absolutely. And often it's fear that holds us back. Right? And it's fear of the unknown. It's fear of, can I make enough money to feed the family? Right? Can I even show up like this? I don't even know what it is to be this identity. I've never known anyone who's done it successfully. All these things that can hold us back. And by exploring in a space that's more creative. It does, it allows us to say, let's tap into that super strength, figure out what it is, and then explore it.
Lynn:
What kind of superpowers have your clients found when you did that with them?
Michelle Stowe:
Oh, great question. Um, I'm going through the Rolodex in my head of the various clients are their super strengths. You know, one of my clients is an attorney. And his super strength was he wanted to be a white hat. He had worked in financial services for a very long time. And he wanted to be working with the SEC or with another organization that was going to be doing good. And so for him, it was tapping into that deep purpose for another client, it was that she was exploring two paths next, and trying to figure out how to do both and realize that she fully has the capacity to do both and didn't need to resign herself to one or the other that she had created this suckers choice of what her future needed to be that she was a multitasker. Gosh, another client found that her gift was about leading much smaller organizations. And so had she had been in you know, in the middle of the machinery of very large multinationals and found in volunteer And then trying different organizations on for size. But what ended up really working for was her superpower was that mid size sweet spot of an organization. So everything from what my career journey needs to be to an actual superpower of a skill or an ability does emerge. But some of it's just knocking away some of the fear voices along the way. Oh,
Lynn:
there's so much fear voices, it's you know, it, we can't help it. It's our survival mode. And it's so hardwired that the the key is to learn how to deal with it, not to how to get rid of it. Because you can't get rid of fear, I don't care who you are, how you are, because it is hardwired into your body, you can develop a new relationship with it.
Michelle Stowe:
That's right. And by declaring an identity, it helps to put that fear into a different place. Rather than saying, I'm going to try writing. And this is directly out of atomic habits. If you've read the book, fabulous book, declare the identity. And I see it all the time with my clients, and especially in with a comic is, I am a writer. I am both a consultant in nonprofit and a photographer, I can do both. I am an attorney who does right and justice in the world. by declaring those things other worlds open as you have conversations with your network, right in making that declaration. Now others understand how they can help you on your journey. Until then, if you're not taking yourself seriously, and that new identity or exploring seriously, it's hard to find friends who will help you along the way. And so this you know, it helps out a few friends for sure.
Lynn:
Well, there's something you know, what just flashed into my mind was the the idea of when you say I am, and finish that sentence, you're making a commitment. And years ago, we would, when we closed certain programs that I do this in my vision board workshops, we would read a poem by Garth that talked about when we make a commitment, Heaven and Earth moves to help us and find those friends find those associates. And what's interesting, as soon as we make that declaration, I have found almost 100% of the time if I'm looking I will find them. But if I think nobody's there to help me, I won't see the help coming when it comes. But you get a chance right away to see and live into your commitment. The minute you make a commitment. I have just totally found that to be true.
Michelle Stowe:
Absolutely. You open that door and you know how to welcome someone into your space to help you Yes, to create that opportunity. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Lynn:
And I had to struggle, actually, the biggest struggle I had was accepting help. Because somehow I had developed this belief, especially as a leader that I wasn't supposed to need help. If I was the leader, I was supposed to be giving help, but not asking for help. And boy, was it like a mind blowing epiphany when one of the coaches I worked with this was back when I was at Bank of America said Your job is asking for help. If you could do this by yourself, you wouldn't have a team. So you have to ask for help. That's what you're doing.
Michelle Stowe:
That's right.
Lynn:
And it's like, oh my gosh. And then I actually have since come to actually believe that that is maybe the fundamental, like if you think about the principles of leadership, the first one is you're having to ask for help.
Michelle Stowe:
That's right, this environment. Absolutely. And create an environment where your team knows that it's okay to ask for help. They should be asking you for help, too. Yeah. Right. Because that showing that vulnerability is so incredibly important for the organization to understand that we're all learning here. This is a journey. And let's figure it out. Right. And that's, those are also the teams where it's the most fun, right? I mean, I find that when I think back on my team experiences, it really was in the crucible of some of the worst moments of challenge that where the team comes together, because in that moment, it's so much easier to acknowledge that you need help.
Lynn:
Yes. And the truth is, when things are changing really fast, we don't know, a lot of things that we wish we could know we can't because, I mean, for example, I remember last year when the COVID thing hit, working with my different clients and saying where they were on the acceptance of this is going to disrupt your business, you know, mindset but but the amazing things, different teams that I worked with, did you know whether it was saying okay, we're going to put all hands on deck and meet every day. Who would they would have never dreamed the month before that they were going to be trying to figure things out as they go. But you know, we're all I think of it as We're all kind of playing over our heads because things are moving faster and more out of our control than anything we can possibly figure out on our own. No, that's all right, I need that help. We need to be
Michelle Stowe:
at during, during COVID. I, I had just returned from a vacation and my boss had stalked me. On the flight home. I had called and said, I need you to help us lead the COVID response. I was the chief operating officer of Mercy Housing at the time. And when I got that call, I said, well, it helped me understand exactly what's happening right now. I've been out of the country. And I've been a country that was managing it very well. I've been in Japan and everything was kind of fine. Right? tourism was slowing down, but business was still going. And my boss Jane Graf said, No, no, we need you starting tomorrow. Let's go. And so she immediately paired me with another executive and the two of us to your point, we met every day, set up new processes had huddle phone calls for every new case. And anything that came up new, we create an environment where we need all hands on deck, everyone in the chain of command needs to be on this call. Because we're all still figuring it out. We didn't have processes or procedures to respond to this, no one did know and you can't anticipate it. Know exactly. And you know, within the community of affordable housing, we then also had other all the chief operating officers had huddles, we just had to dive in and figure it out. And that was incredibly rewarding. Because that that's really where you see the power of a community and a power of these ideas when there's not ego getting in the way when there's not, you know, other voices that interrupt all the goodness that is collaborating. And to your point, asking questions, asking for help.
Lynn:
Asking for help asking questions. I have, I have had the same experience where my some of the most actually conflict ridden teams, were the ones that I had the most joy and because as long as we could keep the conflict around the ideas and the problem we were trying to solve, and not personal. That's right. It was amazing. As soon as you start going personal, that's when conflict God devolves into something we don't want.
Michelle Stowe:
No, that's true. That's true. And when the problem is that clear, responding to COVID there's no time for it to become personal. Right. All those egos have to go to the side. Because we have a much larger problem to solve right now. Yeah,
Lynn:
exactly. Yeah. What did you when you so for yourself? Let's I want to I don't want to lose the idea of a superpower without asking you for your superpower. What have you found to be your own superpowers?
Michelle Stowe:
Ah, oh my gosh. So I'm one of my closest friends Gretchen said to me years ago, Michelle, oh, my god, you're you just want to collect all the humans.
Lynn:
Okay, I'm gonna have to have a translation of what that means.
Michelle Stowe:
And I said the same thing. She's like, everywhere we go, you want to find a way to connect with everyone. And at the time, to give you a sense of framing we were living in New York City. And yes, I absolutely wanted to know everyone's story. One of the biggest challenges for me traveling outside of the United States in a country with a foreign languages. It slows me down from finding out everyone's stories, I'll find it out. I'll do it with pantomime if I have to. But I would say after all these years, I can with confidence, say that my ability to connect with people. And my interest in wanting to get to know them, understand them and help them on their journey has just been something that's been a key in my whole life. My father brought me a folder of my report cards from K through 12. Just a few weeks back. Oh, wow. I haven't seen these in years. And even from elementary school, the feedback was, she would do great if she would just talk less. chatty needs to focus far too social, especially my German report cards are too social. And so you know, when we think about our greatest superpower, right can also be our greatest Achilles heel. And so you know, where there's, you know, where there's power there's responsibilities this great line from from Spider Man So, you know, when you have something that you're very, very good at, you're also very responsible for understanding how it shows up both good and bad. And so I think for all of us, it's, it's managing the balance of our strengths accordingly, and understanding how it plays in different audiences, when to play it, and when to keep that superpower a bit in check.
Lynn:
That's a, that's a great insight. Because a lot of times, we tend to focus on the dark side of our superpower as as a problem without realizing it just needs to be kept in check, rather than completely changed. I think a lot of people lose their superpower, or, you know, I've heard somebody else call it, the language he used was embrace your funk. Oh, man, the thing that makes you unique, you know, but it's the it is the thing that if dependent depends on which side of that coin we decide to focus on, that causes a good thing or a bad thing. Mine Mine, one of mine, it made me think about is, I have a lot of energy, I'm very high energy. And I have had a tendency to want to try to down my energy down. But it's really about keeping the, you know, the quality of it in such a way that it doesn't hit people so hard. Now, because, you know, when I walk into a room, I really, I really, I've actually seen my energy hit somebody and have them almost shrink back is like, Okay, I think that's okay, take
Michelle Stowe:
a breath and ease them into all that energy. Right? Well, and
Lynn:
you know, the thing that I'm working with the horses that I've done in the last three years has made a big difference, because you know, horses really sensitive to energy, that's how they communicate with each other. So walking into the barn with all that energy, you know, I would immediately set the horses into survival mode. And they have taught me more about working with human survival mode than almost anything I've ever done. Because theirs is completely raw. They're, they're showing you right where they are at all the time. And, you know, in our corporate world, you know, we I think a lot of people live in survival mode, but we have these great cover ups that we do. So we have the I call it my I got this face. And you know, fear may be running underneath. But by golly, we're going to put that face on, and we're going to get after it. And we're going to show everybody we got everything under control. And we go
Michelle Stowe:
so, so important for you to be that aware, to see when someone else has gone into survival mode. Yeah, right, that I know that my energy has now triggered you. And either you you go out of body, right. So you lose, you lose their focus, you see that they're not there, they'd rather be anywhere, they're physically moving away from you, right? Whatever those observations are right about how did I just lose the room? is really, really important to know about yourself. And it's, it's hard to see. Because for so many of us, the question is okay, how am I showing up? How do they see me? And that's that's not the right question. Right. The question is, how am I affecting the others? And how do I help them show up as their best selves? that emphasize that crackling? Yeah, does that crackling energy between two people that needs to be managed? And as a leader, it's your job to know what part of that crackling energy is me? And where have I just derailed something? And where can I help someone not be in that survival mode? It's critical. It's really hard to say, Yeah, well, and
Lynn:
the need for safety. You know, I've really appreciated Google for doing the research that they did, because I think it put in the forefront, the need for safety on teams, you know, the ability to say, Hey, guys, I have a question. And it may sound like a dumb question, but I've got to get it out. And, you know, in my experience, the times I have done that, it's so it's funny, it's almost like you let the air out of the room in a good way when you ask a question like that, because they'll all go Yes, I have the same question. But I was afraid to ask because I didn't want to look dumb. You know, those kind of simple safety things that we do. But I don't know about you, but when I was in, you know, like in my banking days, it just did not feel like there was any room to have a conversation about survival mode safety, anything other than get after it look like you've got it. And if you go into the homeless sequence, which I would do a lot You better not show it.
Michelle Stowe:
I love the homeless sequence.
Lynn:
Well, happens, you know, you go from mistake to living on the street and a series of you know, a cascading thought is a series of negative thoughts that happens in a split second.
Michelle Stowe:
I'm usually in a tent under an overpass in LA. That's Yeah, it ends up Yeah. Yeah,
Lynn:
I pick it I now I've gone from overpasses to wanting to live in the woods. It's like, okay, I can live in the woods now.
Michelle Stowe:
Yeah, I think, you know, certainly when I reflect on the beginning of my career, so I started in, I was in the insurance industry then in the pharmaceutical industry. And, you know, I'm grateful that the organizations that I worked for, did value leadership and management training was something incredibly important. But the concept of psychological safety, how to how, if a manager can be vulnerable in a space, how does that then open up psychological safety? How does that then create empowerment, which then generates business results, right, like, let's draw that line to how this actually helps your organization? shareholder value, right? Yep. And that, that line wasn't as clearly drawn earlier in my career, I am seeing organizations now work really hard to try to create that. And I think much of it, there's been such a hard pivot in 2020. Such a reckoning about the wholeness of, you know, the the state of relations in the United States, everything from social justice and race relations, to how we show up around gender identity, to how we show up in the middle of a pandemic, and ensure that all of us have access to, you know, internet, right, so the disparity in, in data access all of this, so much of it, there was a bright light, Shawn on the whole of it in 2020. And it has to, to a greater or lesser degree, encouraged individual leaders to say, Okay, how, how do I lead in this? How do I show up? And how do I create an environment? That's different? Yeah. So I think we're still in the middle of that evolution.
Lynn:
Oh, 100%.
Michelle Stowe:
And so I am, I am incredibly curious and hopeful about where this does end up landing for what does you know, how does corporate america so to speak, you know, just crave us large behemoth of it? How does corporate america show up at the end of it? That's different, that's more welcoming, that creates a sense of belonging, that balances the need of, you know, revenue with the need of the staff. And so, you know, we'll see how far that pendulum swings and what it looks like. Yeah, the,
Lynn:
the idea that pendulum is, is an important thing, because I think there is a, you know, there's an awareness that you do have to have those results. So you talked about backing from results back through empowerment back to vulnerability. And it's understanding that a lot of times the results come in a way that don't feel as controlled, as we're used to control and that you can actually have better results. When you are actually more open. You know, because I don't think we see the cost, for example, going back to the example of the way my energy would hit people, I wouldn't see the cost of that, and how long it would take to get safety back so that we could actually get work done together. And once I started seeing it, and especially like I said, when I've learned it, like just in working with horses, I've had days, I've gone to the barn, and I can't get on the horse, because I can't get myself to a place where it's safe for me to be on a horse in a relaxed partnering way I can get on because the horse is, you know, what they call broken? I mean, he would, you know, probably be okay. But we're setting up a circumstance to where if he doesn't feel safe, I'm the one that's going to end up on the ground. Because he's going to take off. And, you know, I draw that parallel into what I've seen in corporate where I say teams get derailed. And they don't understand. For example, I had a guy at Bank of America who I talked about with resistance one day, and I really didn't understand what I was what I was poking in him when I said this, but I said, You know, I think we have to understand that everybody's afraid. And we're going to get some resistance. And he looked over at me and he gritted his teeth, and he squared his shoulders. And he you know, I don't know if he was ex military, but he kind of had that look like, you know, I'm going to face down the charging rampage and he goes, let me tell you what we do with resistance. We bust it, we kill it, we smash it, we go right through it. That's what we do with resistance. And he did it with it's just incredible. Like, I didn't even get began to, you know, show the intensity of him. And of course, what did that do for me. I went right back down into my little shell and I thought okay, so everybody that you're working with, is actually operating in a very tiny little thought space. I've got to not be killed by you how many good ideas you think you're gonna get out of that. But he felt like he was doing exactly what he needed to do. And it's just like me going to the barn and not being able to get on the horse on a given day, you know, my results aren't coming. And I think I'm doing the best I can't, well, the results are coming, because I have shut everybody down.
Michelle Stowe:
Absolutely, and that energy, who's going to now bring a great different novel idea to that person, when that energy is so aggressive when it's closed energy, right? No way. So you're not going to get the Hey, I have this idea conversation won't happen in that environment. And now that you're now you're missing out now, organizationally, there's a lost opportunity.
Lynn:
100, most of the time, the people that are on the line that that are out there doing the work, that's where the answers are. That's how we solve the problems, we don't know how to solve it. It's not something that we, as the leader necessarily have the answer for. So how are you going to cultivate and, and also be willing to cultivate the mistakes, because, you know, you're gonna have to try a lot of things. And I know, for myself, it's something I've had to make friends with, deeply make friends with his mistakes are actually okay. And it's sort of asking that question of what's next, what's next, that gets me through them, as opposed to beating myself up. And a lot of people are trained, and I see it, I see this, I'm sure you see this in your clients, where we're beating ourselves up, we don't even realize we're beating ourselves up, we actually think that's just normal thinking, you know, I had to be trained to see that's actually not not helpful. But the only way you're going to discover something new is to make a lot of mistakes. But beating yourself up actually keeps you from changing anything.
Michelle Stowe:
No, that's absolutely right. And so you know, if you continue to feel that, I need to show up a certain way. I need to be this type of leader or this executive who's always right, who doesn't need the help who doesn't show any vulnerability or failure or share lessons learned? You're not going to get very far. And that team also won't get far. One of my favorite examples. When I worked at Pulte Homes, Bill polti, was still CEO and president at the time. And he would do these roadshows, often town hall meetings and pull together staff and the employees. And he would without fail, tell the story of the mistake he made on the very first house he built, where he didn't look at the schematics closely enough. And when the guys came to pave the driveway to the house, they paved it on the wrong side of the house. So the drive didn't drop. So it sort of went nowhere, that he had to build this, you know, janky walkway that went to the front door around most of the front yard, right. But he told this story as a way of saying, you know, what we do, we need to make mistakes, we need to learn. And as leaders, we need to let our employees make those mistakes. Yeah, is the best way for any one of us to learn. We are experiential creatures. I can read about and learn about your mistakes all day long. But until I do it myself, Boy, that's cellular. Now I understand it at a very deep level. And his point was create an environment where those mistakes can be made, in whatever it is that you do. And it's bumper bowling, right, put up the guards, so you don't gutter. But all the same, let's make sure that there's an opportunity in a framework that allows freedom for employees to make those decisions and safely make them mistakes. That is so hard. That is so hard as a manager to say yes, go ahead and try and fail. I just want to tell you to do it, right.
Lynn:
I've often said that, you know, when I coach a lot of people who want to move to a nother level of the organization, they're at, let's say they're at mid level they want to go executive, they're already executive, they want to run the thing, whatever. But the question I often ask them is at what level could you accept the mistakes that other people make on your behalf? Because I think that may be one of the key governors to how high we can grow. And if you can make if your team can make no mistakes, then you better have a small and perfect team. Good luck finding it.
Michelle Stowe:
Right? Right. So you want to go
Lynn:
No, go run something with 1000s of people and they're making mistakes all day long. You know, you and I both have clients that have literally 1000s and 1000s of people working for them. that are making mistakes on their behalf right now. And the question is in the bumper bowling, have I set up enough guardrails? Have I set up enough ways to help them learn capture what they're learning? Bring it back, recover from it, that we can continue on doing the business?
Michelle Stowe:
Yeah, absolutely. So absolutely, you get those results, right. At the end of the day, that's, you know, you're still running your business responsibly. But you're creating an environment where you know, where folks can learn. And for the vast majority of what we do out there, it truly is not life or death. And setting that framework of Okay, what's the worst that will happen? Let's Let's explore that. But that question, Lynne. That's it. That's a precious question that you've just asked your clients. Yeah, good one. Yeah, that's,
Lynn:
yeah, it is. It is a good one. Yeah. So so one of the things, you, you've told me the story, and I want to I want to dive into this a little bit, because I think this is probably one of the places where you really had to learn a lot, because I can imagine that people, as they're hearing us talk about this is like, but you don't understand my company, I will get fired if I make mistakes. And all of us have been in situations where, you know, the job just is over for whatever reason. And it's time to move on. And I feel like sometimes, and this is that homeless sequence again, it's like if I don't have this job I'm gonna live in under an overpass. But the truth is, most of us if we're competent, I've always believed in earning power. It's like, even though you don't have a job right now you have earning power. The question is, where are you going to go deploy that? But you've had a couple of experiences where you've had to tell people, it's over. Oh, yeah. And one of your first ones? Yeah.
Michelle Stowe:
Yeah, I happen to emerge out of graduate school into a time when we were in Mega consolidations across various industries. But I think when I was in grad school, I didn't quite understand the enormity of it, I'd gone right from undergrad to graduate school, I was studying Organizational Psychology at Columbia. And I was incredibly young. Again, I gone straight from undergrad. And I'm, I'm in the graduate school career office, and all of us would just stock the office for postings, literally, I'm in attack with a piece of paper, and it would say, we're looking for grad students for a day for a week for two weeks to help with a project. And so, so I would always snag those as soon as they were posted. And one was for a one day assignment, working in financial services in Midtown. And I thought, cool, great, right. And I'll I'll do anything, if it's filing, if it's interviewing, if it's, you know, whatever. I just needed the experience. And so, I show up at this bank, and it's one of these buildings. You've seen them in New York, right, right on Madison Avenue, where the whole first floor is just an elevator bank and a security, upgrade that big image simulating. All right, different numbers. Yeah, yeah, the bright white marble, right. And I show up and the person who had hired me for the day greeted me downstairs. And so before you go through those little gateways, where you swipe your badge to get to the elevator bank, there was a conference room off to the side. And she welcomed me and and got me settled and said, Okay, this is where you're working for the day. Red Flag number one. I'm working in the conference room outside of security. Okay. Yeah. Sure. In the room, we're 25, neatly organized, perfectly stacked on envelopes that had, you know, names on them. And I thought, goodness, what is this there was just two chairs in the room. And the individuals handed me a script. And she said, we'll need you to read this today, to the people that come to see you. And I glanced down on it. I'm now responsible for notifying 25 employees at this bank. That this is their last day working for the organization.
Lynn:
Plans.
Michelle Stowe:
I put this in context, I'm wearing the only suit I own. And I've been on the planet 22 years. And I'm about to sit down with 25 people, by and large, had spent more years that I'd been alive working for this organization. And they just commuted in right from Connecticut, New Jersey, wherever they had just come in from an hour long commute to be told when their badge didn't work. Typically Go see the lady in the room off to the side here. And I looked at the HR person that she's describing what my day is about to look like. And I asked her, I said, this is the role for the day, will you be here with me, and I'm thinking, maybe I'm just helping I'm scribing. Note, this will be just you. And she leaves. And she leaves. And here I am with this stack of papers. And you'd hear our or sound when the card wouldn't sweep through the security gate properly. And then I knew someone else was coming. Under speech was, today's your last day your personal effects will be sent home to you. Here's an envelope of information. If you have any questions, I need to get your badge. Can you even imagine being told by this hunk graduate student who you've never met before? That you've just lost your job. And now you get to go home. It was in personal, it was cold. It was awful. It was awful. At that point, I, I I was horrified. I'd never done anything like this, right. I stuck to the script, I did my best to do the job. And as I was leaving, I promised myself I will never work in financial services. mean this soured me from the industry because I thought what sort of an industry, right? This is a young person creating these broad sweeping generalizations. Right? So what sort of an industry does this to its people? What sort of an industry as a grad student to own something that someone from leadership should have had the courage to walk downstairs out of their ivory tower? Oh, talk to these individuals answer their questions. I had no answers. Of course, why is this happening? Why was I selected? How did this happen today? I thought my project got approved. I had no answers.
Unknown:
None. Wow.
Lynn:
That had to have a real shaping effect on you.
Michelle Stowe:
Well, it took what was already some pretty hard coded cynicism. Being a genic, sir, right being you know, disaffected and bleak, right. Yeah. And it just it just like landed for me like, yep, well, this is it. This is what corporate America is about. And it it firmed my resolve to a yes. Not working in financial services right out of grad school. And, you know, try not to work for an organization that would do this, but also that my role coming into human resources early in my career was to protect the little guy. Like I came in with the sense that I was somehow single handedly, right, my superpower was going to be that I was going to make everything right in corporate America. Right. So I came up with this really, sort of misguided, angry, protectionist place that, you know, is incredibly patronizing. Right. But, but that's where I was coming from thinking, you know, this is this is where I need to be of use and value in corporate America because people are working hard. And they're losing their jobs. And they don't know why. And that can't happen.
Lynn:
Right. You know, we had the same thing. When I was at the bank, there was a, I moved from Wichita Falls to Fort Worth. Somehow, I guess I got to keep my job after they had done what they called a riff. And the way that one went down, everybody was in like a cute group I was working with, they were all in cubicles where they could hear each other's phone ring on the desk. And after the second phone rang, and the person coming back to pack their box up, and say I just got rebuffed. They started like, realizing that the phone ringing could be if you were getting called at the conference room. You're done. And I had just had the experience in Wichita Falls, where I got called into a conference room right after my boss had gotten fired. And I figured out he was getting fired because of the language he was using as he walked past me going the other way. So I was pretty sure I was going to get fired. Thank God. And it was the office that they were telling me he's gone, you're at now you have the work to do because there's also the survivors that are left behind. And what I came into was the people who had listened to the phone ring all day, and I think out of 25 people, maybe 10 had been let go in that one. So there were 15 people I was working with, who were still like kind of jittery when the phone rang. Like every time the phone rang. They said I think I'm gonna get called into get fired. And you know, it's no wonder that that's senates, can you see me in my office? Yeah. strikes terror and corporate people, right.
Michelle Stowe:
When your badge doesn't work to get into the building? Yes. When your email doesn't boot up quickly enough? Yeah, absolutely. Right. And and, you know, I'm thinking about your book here, right? It's, it is virtually impossible. to, in that moment, find a way to assume that there's any positive intent going on. The narrative that you tell yourself as an employee, is we're expendable word, you know, that we're, they're letting us go, because, you know, they're trying to meet quarter and earnings, right? I mean, at whatever level of visibility you have into the decision making process, it is really, there's just not left a lot left to reframe the experience. And when you're a mid level manager who's stuck between a decision that's made at the senior level, and needing to communicate to your staff, for me, that was always the hardest is helping to work with those managers to help them re engage after a business decision like that no one enters these decisions lightly. Right. And I can say that now with with certainty, no one, no one does this lightly. But to help a manager understand why they've just been asked to let go of half of their staff and have them feel like they can continue to lead that organization that is really hard. It is really a really hard place to be, you know, I
Lynn:
actually have always felt like in terms of leading change, the most difficult kind of change to lead is the one you didn't choose 100%. Because that's the big assumption, if you read almost every leadership book is your relating a change that you chose. And as leaders, we don't want to feel like victims. And we don't want to lead from a place of no empowerment, but we just been told, pay half your staff is gone. Now figure it out. That's right. And you're right, people don't take those those situations lightly. And it's, you know, it's, it's interesting, because you were talking about finding the positive intent. And there and that was probably the thing that I struggle the most with, when that idea was first introduced to me is like, How am I supposed to assume positive intent? When I know this is a horrible, horrible thing that's happening, or I know, there is no positive intent. And what if that's one of the reasons I wrote the last five chapters of the principles is, it's actually not about them having positive intent, it's about your operating structure while this is going down. So, you know, to not taking things personally, discerning what the signal is, from the noise, mastering your stories, those kinds of things, and then recognizing, you know, if a deed being fired from a corporate job is the end of your life, you've probably need to restructure your life. Because that's what I had to figure out, you know, I had placed all of my self worth, on my status, and my salary and my bonuses. And who knew me and where I got to sit in the meetings and so forth. And it was a real awakening for me to realize that I can contribute at a high level and in a way, but I don't have to sell myself. No, that's right. And, you know, I truly hope for everybody that ever ends up in a situation like that. And I know I've coached many people through them. You know, I've had more people come back to me, and say that learning that was was worth the price of admission of having to get fired. And I've actually coached people through some pretty humiliating fairings where it wasn't a riff, but it was a complete misunderstanding. And, you know, just a horrible, like, their reputation there in a small community was on the line. And, again, no positive intent there. But navigating through building up those internal personal skills that allow somebody to be empowered in a place where they don't feel like they have any empowerment, that's, that's what makes this all worth it.
Michelle Stowe:
Oh, absolutely. And it's, it's a privilege to be on this journey with so many clients, right. And it brings me back to the discussion of identity, right, if my identity is 100%, my job at this company that's shattering to lose that job at this company. Right. And I think there's been some, you know, generational shifts that have happened, where, you know, a person could have an entire career at one employer and some still do. But that's less Unless the norm and so creating an identity for oneself outside of that job that company is, is really important to have that sense of satisfaction of, Okay, well, I've lost this job, but it's a job. I'd love the word occupation for this. Right? It's as I do, right, exactly. And this job occupies my time. And for this time that I have on the planet, right, this precious time, my occupation is the following. And for some folks, their hobbies would be listed first and foremost. And, you know, oftentimes, when you engage in conversations outside the United States, people don't start with what they do and where they work. That's, that's a uniquely American thing. Right? It starts with, what am I interested in? What are my hobbies? What do I like to do? What sort of food do I enjoy eating? Where do I enjoy traveling? that balance of who I am as a holistic person, right is so incredibly important. But it also helps to bring it back to how important is this at this moment in time? And can I recover? Yeah, right. How do I reframe the value that I have into something different and better and having seen if you've ever seen the movie up in the air, where the first 15 minutes is like, a montage of how people react to being fired, it is if you haven't, unfortunately, been in the same position that you and I've been inland where we've let people go, that is dead on that montage. That is, but to a person. As, as I've stayed in touch with individuals through all of these reductions in force that I've been a part of as the HR lead. There's in a year and a year and a half these individuals by and large land, in fact, a much better place. That by their own assessment, this thing that seemed like the worst day, right, and Laurie Santos from the happiness lab, she talks about this a lot. The thing that can that can seem like your worst day, ends up being the thing that moves your life in a direction that's more fulfilling. Yes. And it's not to be said to someone who's going through it in that moment. But yeah, it is not yet let that settle in a bit. Because there is a grieving there is a sadness that has to happen, and that is legit. But after that, yes, there's a process of starting to reframe. Okay, now, what am I meant to do? And how can I do this better? How can I do the thing that is my life better?
Lynn:
Your language about recovery, I think is the key. Because as I'm working with balance, what I've really realized, and this comes somewhat from skiing, that the balance point is always moving. So the job that was great last year that was so balanced, situations are moving, and sometimes we forget that and we think that the balance point is something we have to stay on. And I think the key to balance is how do you constantly recalibrate and move towards balance. And I watched watched a guy, shoot golf shots off of a an exercise ball, you know, those big exercise balls that are in the gym, Imagine standing on one of those, and then shoot it hitting a golf ball. 300 yards, I watched him do this, I have to go actually see if I can find the video on my phone. Because the thing that most struck me about that you think he's he's in balance. But if you actually watched him, he was constantly shaking, the ball was moving constantly. He was kept recalibrating his balance constantly. And I've come to believe that that's a superpower is when I get hit calf quickly do I recover? And how well do I recover? And if it's a big hit, and I get really knocked off, like you said, in a big job, for example, there should be a grieving process. If I try to bounce back too fast. I'm actually not bouncing back at all. That's the rebound strain, right? I'll land up in the same exact job that I was in and I don't get a chance to say Hey, wait a minute, where do I want to change? Where do I want to go? What kind of new role do I want to take?
Michelle Stowe:
And we're so inclined to action culturally as Americans. Yes, we are. That it there's a place for being still. There's a place for letting that grief be. I acknowledge it, feel it deeply. Give it its due. And you know it. It's so interesting. We hear all the time. If someone does lose their job, well, what are you going to do next? What are you going to do? Well, gosh, what a horrible thing to ask someone who's just lost their job right? Rather than that, can I sit? Can I be with you? Can we just sit in this together? Right? How are you feeling right now. And so we are so inclined to action that it makes it hard for that person. There's so much peer pressure to just be. One of my clients is currently in the midst of a really massive life change. And she has dealt with some tremendous grieving and loss over the last year. And the hardest part for her was feeling comfortable with the sitting still, this is an incredibly successful executive, right, who's reassessing what's important to me? How do I use my gifts? And where do I show up? But the sitting with has been by far the hardest, because with that comes judgment. What are you doing? You're not doing enough? How would you know, what's your next step? And you've always been so successful, what's next for you? Well, ah, I just need to sit how and creating a space for yourself to just be and be still with that is really hard. And very important. Well, we
Lynn:
don't teach people that the only way out is through. That's right. We teach people to not make me uncomfortable. Most often don't, don't cry in front of me, don't make me feel uncomfortable. So you go stuff that you put that aside, the sooner you're fixed, the less I have to worry about you. And just that idea of being able to sit with somebody in their grief, and it is grief, would you lose a job. And a lot of times, it's also grief in our jobs, when we lose, you know, our family, we lose parents and we lose, you know, loved ones. And unfortunately, in my corporate world, we had people we lost that took their own lives. And you have to really sit with that. And you have to you have to sit with the people who are touched by that. And allow them some space to just feel because that's how our emotions are supposed to process.
Michelle Stowe:
Absolutely. And, you know, I have to say what I deeply appreciate about my experience at Mercy Housing was how historically the leaders made it absolutely safe to process those feelings. And so, you know, in the world of affordable housing loss happens with some regularity, right? When you are really running and property managing a senior property, right, these things happen. Yes. And when you're your role as a property manager or resident services lead for a community of you know, 300 homes, there will be loss, right? That is unfortunately, what comes with life. And to create a space where it, it's encouraged, to take a moment to breathe, to acknowledge the loss to process together staff and residents. You know, that that, for me was one of the first hallmarks joining Mercy Housing, how different this place was from anywhere else I've ever worked. Because of the acknowledgement that you're a whole person. I don't expect you to come in the door and leave your values and your emotions and hang them like a hat at the door and then sit down and do your work. It was expected you would bring your whole self. Yeah, and there was space created to do that. It was lovely. Yeah,
Lynn:
that's Mercy Housing was one of the most wonderful, unusual places I got to work with. And of course, sister Lillian. Her her passing was one of the saddest days for me, you know, it was just one of those things. I think I thought she would live forever. I think she I get to do I get to feeling that way. And it was it was what was it July of 2019. And I I didn't even hesitate It was like okay, well when they have her services I'm getting on an airplane. And one of the what most wonderful services I've ever been to and I got to see you of course and yeah, Helen Helen was handing out the buttons the presumed positive intent buttons because sister Lillian was a master at assuming positive intent she made it was a thing
Michelle Stowe:
she was she even helped that back to that banking story earlier. She was she was the person that helped me finally let go of framing all bankers as deeply evil. Horrible right. So if it's okay, I'll jump into on a sister Lillian story
Lynn:
on absolutely jump it all
Michelle Stowe:
right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So she I first joined Mercy Housing and very early in my tenure, she shared with me that we have regular banking meetings with our investors. So affordable housing relies very much in the low income, low income housing tax credit, of which the major banks in the United States are the primary investors. So you're JPMorgan Chase is your cities and so forth. And once a year, we would welcome the members of those organizations to our office and walk them through a little bit about our story. And the whole purpose was to fortify the partnership between the two organizations. So you can imagine me arms crossed, right, close to the conversation with Lillian said, you know, I'd really like for you to please be in the room. Right. And we would like to have you talk about what we're doing related to leadership development and talent management with our banking partners. Find sister Willie, and I'll do it because you're asking. So we show up in the room. And it's, you know, one of our fanciest board rooms and everyone's sitting around the board table. And members from these large institutional banks or their sister Lillian was generous and warm and inviting, as she always was, and then got down to business and started talking to the bankers about our strategic plan and all the goodies. At the conclusion of the meeting, sister Lillian asked everyone in the room to share why it was that we were called to do the work that we do. And what is it that's special about the work that we were doing together, Mercy Housing, and these banks? what connects us to this deeper purpose? So we go around the table, and she started with the bankers. So I'm thinking, huh, so you tell me, the kid who was in that room outside the security office like 15 years ago, you tell me how you're connected to affordable housing and the needs of the communities that we work in? It was so full of it. And the answers that I heard, one executive grew up in low income housing himself, and he was happy to have achieved the success he had work with us at Mercy Housing and make a difference in the same sort of communities where he grew up. One dived into the fact that he believed that investing in low income housing was how we move the needle, how families rise with education with opportunity. Another talked about how this, they thought was the way that we would achieve racial equity as a country. So one after the other after the other, and every frame that I had in my head, about what I thought bankers were, who they were, why they came to work, how they treated their people absolutely crumbled under the crushing weight of all of that positive intent. That sister Lillian was able to not just assume, but bring forth into the meeting. She called, she cultivated it, and we all heard it. And I had discredited the entire field really a good deal of corporate America after experiences with war, reductions in force, and you know, all of that. Everything I assumed about banks being focused on greed and malice, and Gosh, even racism was challenged in that moment with sister Lillian pivoting with just one question. And that, and I, you know, letting it go. was both stressful, because I'd held on so hard to this notion of corporate greed and especially the banks. Right. But it was enlightening to Yeah, because Lillian helped literally to shine a light on the assumption that I had been making that was holding me back from showing up better showing up more authentically bringing a partner to the table, right, which the sisters right when you look at what Catholic sisters have done for years, they just do this. They bring diverse partners together to make great things happen and partners for which, right like me, I would look at a bank and say, why are we working with these people? Well, without the banks, those deals don't work. Full stop. And it's the bank has these executives who believe in affordable housing, who themselves have grown up in poverty, right. So it challenged that one I love the name of your book, that one elegant pivot, did everything to change the tone of the room, certainly for me, and maybe also for the bankers, when the questions got around to the Mercy Housing staff about why we were there. It created this common language and purpose that helped to really get us back to doing the work. And not like that sort of stuff. hold us back. Well, you
Lynn:
know, the thing about the difference between the institution and the individuals, you know, she, she had this magic of getting to their stories. Yeah. And, and, yes, a lot of that other stuff, the bumping, of elbows, and so forth. Even the kind of guy that I was describing earlier, when you would get to a guy like him, and talk about what really mattered, you'd find that there was a reason he was a banker. And there was a reason he did this. And he had, there was a humanity there, almost none of the people lack humanity. But it's so easy to think that they do, because they're just caught in a system that's supporting, they're really just caught in their own survival mode. And I did a lot of work on Wall Street. And, you know, I went into Wall Street thinking everybody was arrogant, and, you know, in it for the money and so forth. But when you would really get down into it, they were actually humans. And the most arrogant, were actually the most insecure. That was the, that was the big aha for me. And once I could see that, it's like, okay, they need safety just as well as anybody else. But you have to give it to them in a way that doesn't look like you're giving them safety. Because they'll just double down on their arrogance if you do that. No, that's right. But it's having that spirit of inquiry and desire to find out their stories and hear from them. What really matters and sister Lillian was a master. And, and she is the reason you know, you were in the room. You know, I was on the podcast with Bill Goldsmith said go, the knowing laugh, you were in the room. I was when the famous Joe who came out later, as Bill Goldsmith said, Lynn, can we just do something different. And I'm sure you've heard the podcast with him where he owned I did what have happened. But I remember sitting there, I don't even know if you noticed that I had my hand over my mouth. Because it took me a few minutes to gather myself. But I had to bite my tongue, I put my hand over my mouth, so that I didn't come back after him. Because it looked like he was coming after me. And as he said he was. But the little sister Lillian was the the reason more than anything that I had, she even empowered me to not show up that way. It was like, I am not going to go where I want to go, I am going to find a way to assume positive intent in this moment. I just don't know where it is right now.
Michelle Stowe:
And it was fully her expectations. Yeah, we would find a way in that meeting, that we'd find a way as a team with one another on the dailies to assume that positive intent. And that day in that meeting, Bill made it really hard. And never forget.
Lynn:
I have to ask you in a second to tell me what it looked like from your standpoint. But what I didn't know until we did the podcast was how many other conversations that he had had with people. And you know that he wasn't the only one thinking that. So he kind of wasn't alone. And, and rightly so, by the way. It was really a transformative moment. But tell me from your vantage point, like when he said that, what were you thinking
Michelle Stowe:
about? And so Bill and I had had a few conversations, right leading up to this meeting, and others had as well, and sister Lillian for all of her brilliance as a leader. When she set her mind to something, it was very, very hard to change her mind. Right. So she would, you know, cross her arms and her cheeks to turn red and she would make it very hard to disagree with her. And when she liked things a certain way. They wouldn't change. Right? And so how meetings were facilitated what we talked about how we talked about it, it there was a frustration among the team at times that we really need to have a harder conversation and it's hard to do that when Lillian frames the conversation so tightly. Yeah. So having you Lynn cards in the room. Well As the opportunity that would that was the moment where, you know, in the regular standing meetings that we had, it wasn't going to be possible to really bring these things up, because it wasn't welcome for us to dig in the retreat was that opportunity. Right. And so, you know, there were a few different agendas of the room that day, because we were struggling, right. As an organization, we knew that we needed to write the ship, we knew that financially, things didn't look rosy. We had work to do. And all of us deeply understood it looking at our own budgets. And we're trying in our own way to say, How do I do this differently? Right, and what can we do? And do we need to stay in this market? I mean, really big questions. Yes. So Bill, right, leading up to it had certainly we he and I had just one or two conversations about well, how do I bring this up? Right. And from those conversations to the meeting, I don't know where what, you know, where bill went, but his frustration was apparent. Right. And no one no one faulted him his frustration. Yeah, we all understood where he was coming from. And why what I think was hard in the room is when you have a leader that is a force of nature, like million is there are times when that could stifle really candid dialogue in a group. She was a sort of leader, you would have one on one quietly, and ease her into it. Right. The the idea of bringing it up in a group? Hmm, shocking. Yeah. So when Bill brought up his, you know, his showstopper. There was a response that was both shock. And like, we were just all incredibly impressed. Yeah, like, on one hand, it was, Oh, my God, Bill, Why'd you do that? Right? Like, yeah, dude, no, no, no, like, pull it back, pull it back. Right. But on the other hand, it was a question that needed to be asked. And good on him for asking it. That the how in that moment? Yeah, no, I think we were all struggling with how, with how build shows in that moment. But we fully understood why. Full it Yeah,
Lynn:
yeah. Well, the thing. So as we've unpacked this story over the years, the thing that just keeps coming back to me is, how many times did I not unpack something and respond in a way that shut down an opportunity? Because in the moment, I had enough, where with all not in the moment, but after a few moments of gathering myself to say, Hey, guys, what would it take for you guys to have a different conversation, which is exactly the catalyst, the team needed to interact with all those conversations that led to frankly, Bill eventually leaving, because that was a big decision that needed to be made. And he knew it. And so he was charged with the awareness of something had to be different and different might mean him not having a job. Remember the homeless sequence, right? Yeah. So there's, there's always more to it than meets the eye. And it's just thinking about it, like, Where have I like, shut it down rather than pivoted?
Michelle Stowe:
Well, and I think we all have, we all have had those moments where, you know, we were hijacked by the moment or, you know, we don't know where it's going. And so until I can control it, I'm just gonna shut it down. Right. And especially if I have the mic, I'm going to use the mic in that moment to say, Okay, I'm, if I'm not ready to have that conversation, how do I set it up safely? Well, maybe I don't. And so that you're right. I mean, there are definitely moments where we could have let something evolve, that could be productive. But for not knowing how to how to acknowledge that moment and then move into a healthier dialogue. The discussion still has to happen, it will happen either explodes out another time. Right. Like like the bill explosion. Right. Yeah. Which then resulted in your right a whole series of hard but good decisions that the organization needed to make. And now their innovations in tremendous financial health. I mean, it's it is remarkable the shift that happened in 10 years, right. on the handlebars there. Yeah.
Lynn:
Yeah, it and you know, the other thing I have to give incredible kudos to sister Lillian and the team. I started working with Mercy Housing in 2005. And there was there was a core belief that I think is very common in nonprofits, which is 100% of our money has to go to our mission as opposed to us You know how to allocate the money between the strategy and the mission? Because I didn't really have a clear strategy, it was just sort of almost a pass through. And when we brought that conversation in the the, the the number of new homes that and people that have been in homes, because they backed off that they call it the missionary mercenary continuum. Yep. Right? Because there was a belief that if you were making decisions that were for the organization strategy that we had a mercenary take to it, like, in other words, if we pay people good salaries to come in and do big jobs, that's the wrong thing to do. Because that's too mercenary. Well, yeah. But if What if they that person that has that, you know, big job gets you 10 times the number of people in houses that wouldn't have been in a house? What's wrong with that? And so they had to kind of move into the balance of that scale, because you don't want to be on either end.
Michelle Stowe:
Now, that's right. And sister Lillian very controversially restructured the organization, right. She brought in leaders from the for profit sector, I was one of them. And, and some from real estate organizations that did not have a good reputation for how it treats people or residents. Yeah, these were some pretty controversial decisions and big personalities that she hired fearlessly to say, you need to help us here. Think about how we're structured differently. And how we do our business, our operations, right, even the notion of collecting rent. Mm hmm. So there was a belief that it was not our responsibility to collect rent, if the resident felt like they could pay they could pay, well, there's a contract here. And the rent is reasonable. And that's already been determined based on the person's income and their sources, we know that it's reasonable. And so it is our job to collect rent. This is, you know, that this is the compassionate thing to do is that this is an agreement between these two parties. Making sure someone remains housed is critical to the work that Mercy Housing does, but it can't do the work unless it collects the rent. And that was a major cultural shift for the organization. Oh, and sister, Emily, they had so much courage to push through what was a tremendous amount of change, but organizationally, structurally, culturally, to help get it to a point where there was an understanding that and back to this, like banker example, when those of us who came in from the for profit sector were brought in there were also assumptions made about us. Oh, I bet that we wouldn't have the heart that we wouldn't be focused on the mission that we wouldn't understand the importance of the relationship with the residents. That took time, it took time to build that trust. And added time it did happen, and now not with everybody, right, there was a little bit of a little bit of change that had to happen. But that where the pendulum swung right and moderated. That understanding of the mutual understanding of why we're here really helped us to make sure we could continue to assume positive intent with one another.
Lynn:
Well, you know, that idea that this collecting rent thing, I want to go back to that because yeah, one of the things that I think often gets missed in helping people get out of Dire Straits is the need to strengthen them, and give them the tools to operate strongly in society. And if you don't have a habit and a practice of paying your rent, whether it's a house payment that you own the house or your rent, then you're Miss you're lacking in some tools to succeed and go on and do great things. And to me, I always felt like y'all were, you know, not a hand out but a hand up.
Michelle Stowe:
Yeah, and so much of what's done at Mercy is really based on the idea of Resident agency. Right? That respect? Absolutely. We're in this in partnership, right? It is not a hand up. You know, it is really, it are a handout rather, this is an opportunity, right to create a partnership where we have something to offer and our residents have a tremendous amount to offer. And so the residents of Mercy Housing, right when, when we're doing it right at the properties, it is a shared responsibility and process, and it's beautiful. And so that piece of it right is I think for many many years, there was an incredibly patronizing view of the tenant landlord relationship and in public health. In affordable housing, and tried to undo that historical relationship is critical. And a big piece of that is that mutual respect? Yes. You know, wait, you know, I will pick on the banks for a moment, right, who love to come in and do financial training for residents, right? We'll teach them how to budget and how to invest. Like, you're going to teach a mom who's, who understands how to feed a family of four on a minimum wage budget. How to budget? No, thanks, Betty, how she's got pretty well dialed in. She's managed so far, just fired. Right. And let's now help her prepare for promotion, let's help her find resources, so that the kids have before and after school care so that she can take a promotion when it's offered. Right. Like, let's let's focus on that rather than you know, we'll help you budget pat, pat, pat on the head. Right.
Lynn:
There you go. That's the assumption, that patronizing assumption, you know, I've I, I really resonate with this is this 70s I think the transactional analysis stuff that Eric Burton did with the ego states of parrot adult child. And the way a child is sort of power under a parent's power over and adult has power with. And when you start really like applying that idea out into society, and into companies and stuff, you see so much patronizing of, I'm a parent, they don't say I'm a parent, they say, I know better. I know, your problem is that you're not budgeting. So I'm going to come and show you what your problem is. As opposed to the power width thing that says you're not a victim. You're not you're perfectly capable of paying rent, and you're perfectly capable of budgeting, and how can I help you continue to build the tools to get your promotion or do whatever it's right that you need? But do it from a place of mutual respect?
Michelle Stowe:
That's totally right. That's totally right. And I am, you know, when I think about sister lands, leadership, and the Jane Graf, who was the CEO of Mercy Housing after sister, Lillian, right, that messaging continued, of, you know, it is our responsibility to find a way to assume that positive intent. Yeah. And so you know, it, it changes how you interact with a community, it changes how you interact with your peers, with your staff, because it takes ego completely out of the picture. Yeah. You know, when the when the mission is that clear about what you do and how you do it. The blessing of that is that you can fully just show up to do the job. And there's no room for ego. But at the same time, the work is so important. And there's so much passion behind the mission, that it can assume positive intent is not always easy. Yeah. Let's say for example, you're a real estate developer, and you're working hard to finish a project. And you need the accounting department to put a draw together. And the accounting department is looking at the draw request, right. And it's not filled out completely. So they'd be happy to do it on time. But there's not enough information on the draw request. That is a small but common example then where happens every day. Absolutely. But when you care deeply about the mission, that can go quickly to not just you're not doing your job, I don't know that you're competent, but you don't care enough about what we do. Woof. So now there's this negative, all this personal that just jumps right in? Yeah. And I had never seen that in corporate America. Like that additional layer of emotion just never really got settled on top of what could already have been a departmental stress point. Right. And so helping the staff understand, okay, how do you assume positive intent in these? How do you create the from crucial conversations, right, this shared pool of meaning about why we're all here, that then becomes incredibly powerful.
Lynn:
That's huge. And now hard to do. And it's never going to become easy, I don't think because it's, there's not a system or a set of steps for this. Right? It's our own personal work. And I think we reach what I've learned that and again, this, I keep going back to the horses, but the more pressure you're under, the less likely you are to be able to reach for your tools. You go back to your old habits and your old rules. And so as the pressure increases, we say, Well, I thought I had this one licked. Well, you did at the old level of pressure. But now we're at a new level of pressure. That's right that whether it's a deadline Whether it's you know, we've got to get a grant something done before the grant expires or, or or there's all kinds of different ways that pressure gets raised. And then the question is, alright, how do I build my tools at a new level of pressure? And that's an infinite game.
Michelle Stowe:
That's the life's journey.
Lynn:
It's what that's what the journey is about. So now on your journey, you are no longer with Mercy Housing. Correct? You You had started skyrocket coaching A few years ago, but you dove in almost completely two months ago.
Michelle Stowe:
So how's it Oh, my gosh, it's so exciting. I am incredibly grateful for my 12 years at Mercy Housing and the opportunity to lead such a terrific group. And yes, so five years ago, I took a coaching certification class. And because I've been HACC, coaching for a good part of my career, but decided it was probably time to go learn the skills legit. And, and found that that little, tiny little flame that then grew and grew over the years, and sister Lillian and Jane were incredibly accommodating over the years of allowing me to have some clients on the side. And so as long as they were in affordable housing, as long as you know, these were friends of the family, so to speak, all boats rise, that, you know, could scratch an itch for me, in addition to my day job. And, you know, as COVID, I think it brought a lot to the fore for individuals, and what 2020 was, I had already been thinking that it was time for me to start this business with an earnestness. And as I started to talk to, again, talking to folks about this identity, right, that I am ready to be an executive coach full time, this is what I'd like to be. And then to the phrase, I am an executive coach, it's time for me to hang up my own sign. Those conversations, create openings. As amazing what was nice, it is amazing. And you know, I am a single mom, and my daughter is 15 years old, you know, there are still daily household expenses. You know, I am not a trust fund kid, you know, I am still paying the bills. And so to step into the void, so to speak, was terrifying. Would I have enough revenue to to pay the rent, right. And so we did everything from so my daughter and I skinny down our expenses down to what I call ramen noodles, expenses, right got got the ship righted, so that we could step out into it, and we'd be fine. And then began working with some friends and colleagues in partnership agreements to be able to to start this. And so eight weeks ago, today was the official launch of mercy house or Mercy Housing. 12 years, 12 years, thank you have skyrocket coaching officially launched eight weeks ago, and I am over the moon. This has been such an exciting launch and the opportunity to work with colleagues that I've admired, within affordable housing, the opportunity to work with brand new clients in different industries. And my clients now span the globe. So clients and Shanghai clients and reo clients and Amsterdam in the United States, I mean, it's really been terrific. And so it's the opportunity to be with individuals along their journey, to either find their leadership voice, refine it, or show up as the leader, they really want to show up as is deeply satisfying work. And I have to admit, I had a moment last week where at the end of the day of working with clients that were all different parts of their journeys. I just had to take a moment and breathe and just appreciate how fortunate I am to be able to do this work. And, yes, it's an added bonus that I can pay the rent. Well, that's
Lynn:
a bonus. But you know, I'm thinking about how many more people are going to get the opportunity and a chance to work with you and what pivots are going to happen in different careers.
Michelle Stowe:
Because of it, and it's just a joy. Truly, you know, the looking at the affordable housing industry, the industry itself really didn't come into being fully the way we know it now. It started in the late 70s, early 80s. And so a lot of founders, you know, folks who are community developers and you know, out there organizing, are now looking at retirement. And so there's there's a wave of change happening in the industry. And I'm, as you'd mentioned, I'm happy to be a part of it and to be able to help different organizations manage this shift of, you know, from founder to the next CEO from larger than life personality who created this organization to the next person that they would hand the baton to me, these organizations are so small that investing in and really cultivating a good succession plan is hard. And so. So go with that. I really enjoy that work. succession planning work to me is, you know, it's putting the systems in place so that everyone in the organization can hit their best selves, and allow an organization to really understand who they have in the way of talent, and how can we best cultivate that talent? And ultimately, yes, there's an end result of telling the board, who do we have in the hopper, right, who's ready, who's ready in the future. But all the same, the work is incredibly satisfying, I was delighted to be able to do it for Mercy Housing, you did
Lynn:
it great. I think that would be one of your one of your superpowers was spotting and cultivating talent. Because a lot of times somebody has to have somebody touch that talent within them and say, you know, you can do this. And we can get you ready. And you know, the stuff that really matters, nobody's ready for it, you have to go through a process to get ready. And it's really nice to get on a path. You know, I've been watching the SpaceX, the SpaceX, stuff with the different astronauts going, and so forth. And we're kind of clued in again to what it takes to get somebody ready to not only launch a rocket, but get on one. And, you know, this is these truly are rocket scientists. Right? But they're brilliant. And they and they didn't start that way, they learned to be that way. And so we all have this opportunity. And I think that's what you do is help people learn. So it's really cool.
Michelle Stowe:
Well, thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be out in the space focusing on this now. It's deeply gratifying. So
Lynn:
I'm thrilled. I know. I know. I know you're super busy. But how do people that might say she has to become my coach or she has to help me find a coach or whatever? How do people find you?
Michelle Stowe:
Well, I'd love to meet you whoever you are out there that would like and my website is skyrocket coaching calm. So all one word skyrocket coaching calm.
Lynn:
And we will have that in the show notes. Are you on LinkedIn, socials, anything like that right now? The best way to find you
Michelle Stowe:
know, I'm on LinkedIn. And I post an article a month, most recently wrote an article about the linkage between dragon boating and leadership, which is another hobby of mine. But I think our Yeah, yeah, yeah, loud and bossy. So the. So yes, I'm on LinkedIn. And you can find me on my website. So yeah, thank you, Lynn, so much for this opportunity to talk to you today. This has been such a pleasure.
Lynn:
It is great to have you and I so look forward to staying in touch with you and hearing what comes for you out of this conversation. And for those of you who are listening, you probably got a lot of gold nuggets out of this conversation. And be sure to share it with your friends, people, other colleagues that you think might get something out of it. Also, I love to hear from you. On my website on the podcast page is a little voicemail button on the right, you can click that and I get to hear your voice. And I love to hear your questions, your thoughts, your comments. So share those. Those are definitely influencing where we go with this podcast. So until the next podcast look forward to hearing or seeing you on the other side. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits unleash podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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