#22: Nick Miller. Stop Teaching and Start Telling Stories
If I had to name a theme for this conversation, it would be all about the quality of the question. Nick Miller is a phenomenal question asker – as you will hear in this conversation, where more than once, he turned the table and asked me a question. You will also hear where I asked a question he had no answer for – because I didn’t ask a great question. We covered his weekly sales thought – as he’s coming up on number 1000, on his writing and storytelling mentors, what he learned about asking questions from a graveyard, how he got a famous author and coach to take him on as a client and the only three things we really need to know how to do. Hint: one of them is to learn, and we dove deep on the topic of how we know we are learning, and what he wished he had learned earlier in his career.
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Intro:
Welcome to creative spirits unleashed where we talk about the dilemmas of balancing work and life. And now, here's your host, Lynn Carnes.
Lynn:
Welcome to the creative spirits unleashed podcast. I'm Lynn Carnes, your host. For thi episode, I am speaking with Nic Miller of clarity advantage. I I had to have a theme or a name a theme for this conversation it would be all about th quality of the question. Nic Miller is a phenomenal questio asker you will see that in thi conversation, where more tha once he turned the table an asked me a question or two You'll also hear where I aske him a question he had no answe for. And I think it was m fault, because of the kind o question I asked. In fact, would love for you, my listener to listen for that. And com back to me with where you thin I could have asked tha question. Better. I would lov your thoughts. So back to th conversation with Nick, w covered so much in thi conversation. One of the thing we talked about was his weekl sales thought, which is how met him. And he has writte almost 1000 weekly sale thoughts. We talked about that We talked about his storytellin mentors, what he's learned abou asking questions from graveyard, how he got a famou author and coach to take him o as a client, and how tha pivoted his entire career i business. And we talked abou the only three things we reall need to know how to do. No here's a hint, one of them is t learn. And we dove deep on th topic of how do we know when w are really learning. And we als talk about what he wished he ha learned earlier in his career This kind of wisdom is the kin of thing I wish we had had whe I was in banking many so man years ago, because there's som advice that comes out of session like this that you jus can't get anywhere else. I doesn't happen typically, a your workplace. So here's wha Nick has to say about himself Nick Miller is a consultant an business owner who for a brie and glorious moment, at muc earlier times in his life, h thought he would be professional musician. One nigh after a show, he was invited t join a well known at the tim band, which was about to start world tour. And two days later he decided to go into busines school, a serious busines school. After a few years i banking, and a lot of years i consulting. He founded clarit advantage. Now instead o picking guitars, he helps bank and credit unions pick an execute strategies to generat more profitable relationship faster with their busines prospects and customers, thei owners and their employees. H says it's been better than world tour, no regrets. And yo will hear that when you hear hi talk about how what a good jo he does at that in his day job He now works with banks an credit unions and branches an Field Sales and call cente teams focusing on whic businesses to sell to how t engage how to explore advis recommand, how to close and ho to manage relationships. Nic has consulted with communit regional and money center bank in the United States, Canada an Mexico. For several years h developed programming for an emceed that's master o ceremonies, a nationa conference on the Small Busines Banking his weekly sales o small business banking. Hi weekly sales column circulate globally and his articles hav been published or quoted i journals including the ABA ban marketing, big bankin strategies, sales and marketin management, commercial lendin review, the RMA journal, and th American banker. videos an hundreds of Nick's articles ar accessible through his websit at clarity, advantage, calm Nick lives in Cambridge Massachusetts, walks through th greater Boston area sales tha community voting on the Charle River. And he picks his guita whenever he can. Stay for th end of this conversation, by th way to hear how Nick describe his relationship with music especially as he's enterin retirement. And listen for th wisdom because there's somethin to be said for having jo throughout your entire life an not waiting for it. I would lov to hear what you think abou this conversation what you lik and what you don't. All you hav to do, by the way is go to m podcast page at LynnCarnes com . There is a little voicemail button along the right. It's so obscure, you almost can't see it, but it's right there. It's a little box that says send a voicemail and you click on that and you can leave me a message I love I listen to every one of them and love to get them from you. And of course if you enjoyed this episode, be sure and share it with your colleagues. Friends, for more people to hear it and rate it on the podcast app of your choice. And even better, subscribe if you will. I hope you enjoy this episode with Nick Miller. Nick, welcome to the podc
Nick:
Thank you.
Lynn:
I'm so glad you're here. This is amazing. I can't believe we're doing this finally. I I often why people probably listen to this podcast to figure it out. I often start very live. And I'm starting somewhat live today. And what I realized, probably a while back, you're, you do some beautiful writing. I read your stuff on LinkedIn, but you were sending emails before people were sending emails. years ago, I would get letters from you when I work at Bank of America. And they always started with the same sentence and it made me think of the TV show friends. Have you ever looked at the way they titled those shows?
Nick:
Actually, no, I've not been an active TV watcher. So I don't
Lynn:
it's I'm not I don't know why even though this has been so long since I watched friends, but it's their titles always say the one where and then whatever. Or sometimes it's the one with but that I think the one always is then in the title. And it took me a while to catch on to you but your start with in which we are reminded, right. So that come from Tell me about that.
Nick:
AA Milne Winnie the Pooh So, yeah. So I don't know tha this is absolutely true. But i is my memory of Milled writing that his chapters would ofte start in which we are reminde or in which we learn o whatever. So whether that' actually true or not, attribute it to A.A. Milne. An I have used that. In every sale column I've written for the las 980 some of them
Lynn:
I was about to ask you how many you've written 980?
Nick:
Roughly, I think I get to 1000 and about six weeks.
Lynn:
Are you gonna have a celebration? 1000.
Nick:
I'm not given to celebrating much anything elaborately. But I would say I might treat myself to an extra ration of chocolate ice cream that day. Yeah,
Lynn:
I think you should. I'm a I'm a huge fan of Tim Ferriss, and he just had a 500 podcast. And this morning saw on Instagram that his girlfriend gave him a cheesecake with a congratulations thing. And it looked like there was chocolate on that cheesecake. So I think I think chocolates in order is my point.
Nick:
Yeah, it's hard for me to believe that I've written that many. And I have I've run gun reruns from time to time, when I've run out of ideas, or I'm just too busy. But for the most part, it's original stuff. Probably out of the year. It's original stuff 5040 times, I might run 10 reruns during the year, but the others are all new. So it's it is just truly amazing to look back and see the first several issues and how the style has evolved since then, and how much more fun they are to write now and how much better people respond to them. I mean, I'm, I'm telling stories now not teaching. So it's a lot more fun to write and to read, I think,
Lynn:
when did you make that transition? And what made you make that change from teaching to storytelling.
Nick:
I was evolving in that direction on my own. But I don't remember how many years ago this was it might have been four or five years. One of my readers wrote to me, I didn't know him. I'd never heard of him before. He wrote to me and said, You are a great storyteller, stop teaching tell stories. And then for a period of a couple of years, he wrote to me every week after the sales thought, and said either great story or tell the story stop teaching. Yeah, he would. And then then he would go away for a while. At one point he wrote to me and said, I think I've done all I can do for you. You're in a really good spot. Good luck. And I wrote to him and said, What? I'm not going to hear from you anymore. And he wrote back and said, No, I think you're good. I think you're good. You're in a good spot. And so for about a year. I didn't hear from him. I dropped him a note from time to time, but I didn't hear from him. And then one day, early to mid last year, he popped up again. And he doesn't write to me every week now but every couple of three weeks. He'll send me a note. He writes a blog as well and i i read his and we'll comment maybe once a month. So we're about on the same level. But it was really his influence to just encourage me and reinforce when I was doing it right According to him when I wasn't and and the feedback was immediate and very specific, and he just opened me up it was there's no other way to put it. There was one other guy in my history when I was with Toastmasters at that point, who had the same impact on me, where I was struggling to learn to speak to a group, and I was very academic and luxury and, and Lou heard me give one of the basic project speeches at Toastmasters and said, you have a gift there and you're not using it. Focus on that. And, and really, over a period of two or three years encouraged me to do that. So there were two mentors along the way that really did that. And the third, the style that I use, it's about 400 words, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. But when I was in college, I, my freshman year Fall term, I took a seminar on Ernest Hemingway's writing. And we read almost all of what Hemingway wrote and talked about it endlessly. And I really liked Hemingway's shorter works, the inner chapters, where he might write 50 or 100 words, but they were just piercing. And so I, I liked that length, and did a, you know, individual study with the professor after my junior year, and spent the summer writing things at that length. And I wince when I read them now, they're not bad, but the subject matter, lost love, whatever. It's like, how could you have done that? But he was patient, he read all that stuff and commented on it. So I guess those would be the three main influences one when I was in my late teens, one when I was probably in my 30s, and then more recently, in my 50. So Wow, those three guys gave me huge gifts.
Lynn:
You know, I've heard a little bit about Hemingway and his writing, and what was it that made his writing so compelling? Do you remember from your lessons? You know, I
Nick:
think now when we read Hemingway's work, it seems a little dated in terms of the content. But his one of the things that I learned from him was just be parsimonious with words. He's very, I guess, exacting. With his words, he doesn't waste them. short sentences, strong verbs sorts of things. And his ability to set a scene with a few details is really amazing. And that's, that's something I'm working on now is a scene setting. How do you do that to put a reader in a place and set a mood in a few words, and he was really brilliant at that.
Lynn:
You know, I've actually seen that in some of your writing. And I always feel like I go there so quickly. And I want to say it was a sales thought that we met, it came to my email at Bank of America, it had to be in the mid to late 90s. Because I can remember, actually, where I was sitting, there was something. So here's what here's what made me reach out to you way, way, way all those years ago, I was in charge of credit training at Bank of America, this thing hit my inbox and you, it probably started within which we are reminded that it was about the CEO game. And I was trying to train or help my team train bankers, frankly, to think like a CEO. Because when we were training them in credit, what they would tend to either do was they would become interrogators. Because they were trying to, like make a credit evaluation. Or they would, they would go on the other side of that I'm not sure what the flip side of an interrogator is, but they would be almost too friendly. Like, almost like groupies, rather than sort of a more holistic way of thinking like a CEO. And I had all kinds of exercises and things I had them doing, to try to help them understand really how to get behind the the numbers and the financial statements of a business and really understand the business. But your email made me reach out to you and find out more about that game. So that was, had to be in the 90s. But my my question around like all your sales thoughts is like, when did you and I actually seem to remember it more as a story. So it's interesting, because I thought we were, you know, you said it was just a few years that you made the transition, but what I think struck me the most was that it was such a good story you told.
Nick:
So I took from the very beginning I would tell a story what my my reader wanted me to do was to stop teaching at the end. I would tell a story and then I would write If the story was 400 words long, I'd write another 100 words, teaching a lesson. And his point to me was, if you've told the story, well, they'll get the lesson. And I would write back to him and say, my audience is very concrete, I can't count on that, being able to interpret the story and get the lesson that I want them to get. So over time, he stopped commenting on that, mean, I, every, almost every sales thought, I'll do a few sentences at the end to translate this to a client environment. And I think I finally convinced him, I'm not going to change on that particular issue. But he wanted me to make it. More story less teaching, I guess.
Lynn:
Well, you know, the subtext of that makes me think about control. And in my own writing, how much I want to control. Like, I want to tell you the story, and my blog follows kind of a story. But then I want to control what you learn from it. And I don't know, for you, is it? Was it a control thing? Or was he responding to it as a control thing? Or was it some about what what's your thought on that?
Nick:
It was definitely a control thing on my part. And I wanted you to get this lesson. Now, over time, I think I've tried to write the stories in a way that it's not a big jump for people to see the lesson. And when I get feedback from readers, what they say is, I know you call it a sales thought, but it's really life lessons. And so I've become comfortable with that. And fine, if you're getting life lessons from what I'm writing, that's great. And almost always, there's something that you could use if you're a salesperson, particularly if you're selling in a consultative environment, or relationship environment. There's something there for you. Mm hmm. Like a recent one had to do with walking in Mount Auburn cemetery and thinking about all the people who were buried there, and the history that's there, and I called the cemetery a history lesson. And the point was, the history of those people in that cemetery, whether it's harder for harvard university presidents, there's BF Skinner, is Buckminster Fuller, is a whole range of people in the arts and medicine, and so politics, their history becomes invisible to us. It's just the way things are for us. And my point in the sales thought was, when we're selling to somebody, the decisions that they make now are based on the way things are, how that occurs for them. And they may or may not be conscious of why that's the way things are in their own company. So the point is, you have to ask them, How do things evolve over time, so that you're in this position? Now making this decision? When you've done these kinds of things before? How is it received? what went well? What didn't? What what what was most important? How do you think those criteria might have changed? Now, those sorts of questions help you understand how somebody thinks about and interprets the present and how the influences of the past may have, may have or may be affecting them. If you go in and try to pitch a pitch somebody without knowing that you get objections, because you don't understand the context in which you're working. It's not just about solving the problem that exists now or the future, it's solving the problem as it has been created by the past. Right. And that's something that many, many consultants and salespeople don't get they want to solve something right now, or how are things going to change? Let me solve it for you in the future. But as I called it, the cold bony fingers of the past, have a great impact or grasp on what's happening in the present. So that's a long winded example of how I take an insight about a cemetery, and then translate that to something that would be useful to a salesperson. It's also useful if you're in a discussion with anybody about problem solving. But in my case, I'm speaking primarily to salespeople.
Lynn:
Interestingly enough, I literally just had a context experience that was kind of isolated right before we got on. Somebody texted me one of my colleagues and asked me who what a name was, and I said, is that a name? And she said, I don't know. So I asked her for the context, because I just it was just too Stark. And once we got the context, we realized it was probably it was actually her own business's name, but misspelled and I think because autocorrect did it. And as soon as I saw it, I said, Oh, that's your business. It's just misspelled. Funny, it's really funny, but you know, the context matters so much. I think what she saw in that context, it made sense. I think she thought she was looking at, you know, another person's name as opposed to the name of their business because it was the Far off, but
Nick:
it's a meta checker spell checker. It's like what spell to ever do
Lynn:
that wasn't her spell checker, it was the person who made the invitation to the meeting because she was invited to a meeting. And, and so and they might have just misheard the name, who knows, but you said something, I have to go back to this language, because it's almost, I mean, you really are like a true writer. When you say things like the cold, bony fingers of the past. Like that image, I get the picture almost of the person reaching from the grave trying to still control you even whether they want to or not.
Nick:
It's adorable, one of my readers, one of my readers, Google that and found out that that there is another writer who used that particular set of words in a novel, I didn't know that I just, it was just something that occurred to me. Sorry, I lost your question.
Lynn:
Oh, well, I just wanted to reflect on you know, your tap, tap, tap, tap touching on something very big of the call bony fingers of the past. But why do we do the things we do? Why do we do that the way it always has been, that's a set, you know, we always kind of get allergic to Well, that's the way it's always been done. And sometimes it's for a very good reason. But you get to go find out if you try to do it differently. And sometimes it's because the old system caused that or the old boss, certain bosses have, I've really seen this happen as an executive coach a lot where boss a has gone and they had a certain way, they wanted their meetings around a certain way. They wanted their emails written a certain way. They wanted you to address bad news and so forth. And then they leave. And by the time you get to boss C, or D, they're still doing it that way. because nobody's bothered to say, hey, how do you like to get your information? Right? And that nobody knows why we always, you know, copy these people on these emails or say this or open the meeting this way? Nobody knows. It's because the way we've already done it. So I'm just curious, what are your bait? What what are some of the fun or big stories you've discovered? As you've helped people dive in? to that question, which could go either way, it's that way, because if you don't do it that way, it's really bad or, wow, we could think differently about this.
Nick:
I have no idea.
Lynn:
Sorry, that's a big jump on it.
Nick:
I have no idea. You know, I think that, again, just focusing primarily on the work related to sales that I do. sales training classes, focus on problem primarily on problem solving. Where does it hurt now? And does my solution fix it?
Lynn:
Hmm.
Nick:
If we could make that problem go away. You know, how, how beautiful would life be? Uh huh. But what's interesting is that that's not the way people make decisions. And so there's been a lot of attention to Oh, you know, the sales journey has to mirror the buyers journey. But basically, the way it's still done is that the seller is trying to control the buyer. As opposed to facilitating discovery, you know, really leading a conversation where there's mutual discovery and, and work to create a solution. And you can't get that unless you really understand how the person you're talking to interprets things. What influences them. I mean, I'm making it sound pretty murky here.
Lynn:
But the point is clear, actually.
Nick:
You have to stop asking a question about what they decided and, and really go to How How did you know I got a haircut yesterday? How did you know it was time to get your haircut? As opposed to? Gee, I like your hair. Or why did you get a haircut? Or, you know, I got a haircut because it was too long. Well, how did you decide it was too long? How did you decide gets you to a different place than Why? And, you know, how did you decide to open that new plant? How did you decide Those were the right people to hire? How did you decide that that was the right equipment to put in? You know, now you're trying to map the way somebody makes a decision? What do they consider? How do they weigh it as a salesperson or consultant that helps you climb inside their heads and align with them. Okay, so if that's the way you interpret things, here's a way that we might go.
Lynn:
Wow, you know,
Nick:
in other sorry, let just interrupt, you know, we would teach somebody in a, like a higher level bank sales class to ask a CFO, what are your policies around risk? You know, how or what policies have you in the board established around Investing excess cash. Okay, so you hear the policies, maybe they're good policies or not? The next question instead of, well, you know, changing those going forward. How did you guys decide that that was the right set of policies? What were the key influences that led you to think that set versus something else? What were the concerns you have that? If that's the reaction, what were you concerned about? How do you weigh those concerns? Now? How do those show up? Why were those concerns? Important at that point? Are they still important? Most sales people aren't willing to go that deep with somebody? They just want to say, well, well, our our company, you know, helps. Our bank helps companies design investment policies for X, Y, and Z. I'd like to introduce you to my partner, Fred, or Mary, who's really good with that you can have a conversation with her. No, I don't want to do that. So anyway, it's it's been it's really just being curious and, and salespeople are incented. To a large extent not to be curious. Human beings are incentive generally not to be curious. It's fine. Right. Next. Okay. I heard your answer. Fine. Right. Next.
Lynn:
Yep.
Nick:
It's the rare person who will really sit and for most of us, me included. It's really uncomfortable when somebody starts asking those questions, and turning your attention inward and saying, Well, tell me about that. How did? How did you decide that? Well, what were your thoughts, feelings, history, whatever. It's just, okay, now I have to disclose stuff. Uh huh.
Lynn:
Yeah. And I have to decide if I'm going any further in with you, or if I'm gonna just say, never mind. And I know as a young banker, those kind of questions when I would be coached to when I was in the sales, training, and so forth to go, I had this huge fear that they say, Well, this is your business. And why are you asking me these questions? And who are you to dig like that? Now, as I got more experienced, it almost never happened.
Nick:
It happens sometimes, if you go after something personal with somebody, but I rarely have had that. And if you're dealing with a reasonably mature human being, they're just gonna say, gee, you know, I'm sorry. That's something I'd really rather not discuss. Okay, fine. So let's focus on this other set of things over here.
Lynn:
Yeah. But it's a much more interesting conversation. But this, this idea of being curious, is, I think it's a huge one, because I think it's connected maybe to control. I'd love for you to reflect on that if you could, because if you're curious, you are going to start getting answers you can't plan for you can't script, the result of curiosity.
Nick:
Yeah, I think in a, so in a sales environment, I think it's the salespersons job, on the whole to control the structure and focus of the conversation, at least as a starting point to present. Here's what I think we could talk about, and blah, blah, blah, like to give control of the content to the client. Now, and you could say, well, you could mutually decide how it's going to be structured. And I like that better. But I think salespeople exert control by asking a set of questions, listening to the answers, and then they don't dig deep. I mean, I did to roleplay with salespeople yesterday, and one of them actually did a fairly good job. But they would ask a question like, what are your most important priorities for the next three years? I'm playing the client, I would answer that. And then they would say, Okay, so let's talk about your cash flow, and how it's gonna go, given those your priorities. Instead of saying, well, that's interesting. Why is that so important to you? And how do you think that vision will influence other decisions you might make about cash flow or public investment, whatever, let's just stop and sit in that for a little while. And the salespersons response will be, I've got 30 minutes with this person, I have 15 questions I want to cover, I need to get through those. So I can make a recommendation at the end and earn the right to come back for another meeting. And I don't have time to stop and do that. And my counter to that is if you don't, you cannot possibly add value or differentiate yourself from anybody else, because you're going to only have the same insights everybody else has, as they ask the same set of questions you did. Right. So whether you're selling or counseling or coaching, I think it's largely the same. If somebody says, x, what do you do with that? Mm hmm. That makes sense. I mean, you do a lot of coaching. How does that show?
Lynn:
Well, let's change drum I've changed so much. So yes, very much. I'm used to going in that and especially because with the title of coach, people do it. expected. So they're not waiting for me to sell them something which was always hard for me as a banker, because I had this fear that I was trying to sell them something. Now I'm it's much easier for me to do to go into these conversations. But what I'm, I'm actually just really reflecting on. The people I want to talk to are the ones that will say, why is that so important to you? Like, you know, I have financial advisors pitching me to get my business. And I can tell when they're on a script, and I can tell when they're listening to me. And as soon as I'm, as soon as I'm tuned into, I'm in their system, their script, I almost can guess the next question. I'm not interested. But if I can hear them listening to me, and caring about what my priorities are, and not just my priorities, but and obviously, my values. But the places that I've already established, I'm not really interested.
Nick:
Just thinking about, I'm sorry, go ahead.
Lynn:
I was just gonna say what just like one of the things I'm pretty clear on is I'm not interested in a bunch of stock picking. So don't send me that stuff. And if you pay any attention to my background, you'll know I've had a chance to consider this. I'm not coming at it from an naive, scared person. I'm coming at it from an informed place, but they tend to go, oh, little lady, what you don't understand. And then they're really, I mean, I'm really done with
Nick:
my, my wife was raised as her father's son. She knows carpentry, she knows electricity. She's a good general contractor. She knows her stuff. She studies it. She knows about wood, and adhesives and tile and all of that stuff. I'm, I don't. So we have a rental property in Texas. And it needed some work and a contractor called at her request, and she answered the phone. And he's was pleasant with her and said, well speak to your husband, please. And she said Why? He said, Well, I want to talk about the job. I'll talk to you about the job. And he tried like three or four times to get past her to me. And finally she said, words, the effect of my husband is an idiot about this stuff, you'd get nowhere with him. If you want to talk about the job, you talk to me. And he was so like, I don't talk to you. No, no women do this. And it's always a surprise when the contractors show up at our house because she knows about as much about plumbing and painting and so on as they do because she studied it for years. But they just they don't sorry, that's a complete aside. But it's just, it's a set of assumptions about how people are that you really need to get past.
Lynn:
It's it is it is an aside and it isn't because it's those kinds of assumptions that you're driving people to look at in themselves, when they're deciding whether to work with you or not. How do I make those decisions? What kind of data do I ignore? You know, do I automatically ignore the woman in the room because I think only men can do this. And in the financial world is my husband and I've worked with attorneys, we had an attorney, my husband looked right at the attorney and said, She's the one that understands the finance stuff. And he spent the entire meeting looking and talking to my husband. And and then was thoroughly offended when we told him that it wasn't going to work. And I told him why. And I'm pretty sure he still is only working with men clients. So he just cut half of his, you know, potential out. So these kind of assumptions that are unseen. Really what you're getting to is the unseen. Yes. Yeah. And knowledge judgment. I mean, it's just people like I'm from Texas, I can imagine. I probably know 100. Guys like what you're talking about that won't talk to the, to the women about that stuff. But why not like take a step back and check it out? That's my question for people. What are you missing when you don't?
Nick:
So I just flashed to a scenario of two people on a first date. And the just complete stereotype stuff, the woman says, he didn't listen to me. And you interview the man and he says, Well, I did I engaged with her. I asked her questions and so on, and I don't know what her problem is. So I don't have years and years of experience with this. But what I one of the things I've come to see is that he was asking questions about doing primarily you know, events in history, playing something doing something travel, but never asked questions about feeling or thought process or relationship stuff. And, you know, it's the Mars Venus sort of thing. But my view and in going back to our sales stuff is that that's how clients feel. They would say that guy didn't really listen to me, he didn't hear me. Why is that? Because the questions were all fact based questions. How many checks? Do you write how much the loans outstanding? How many people do you have? What's your strategy going forward? Like, they didn't get it, they really didn't get the essence of who they were talking to, and the and the environment that they were in. Because they just wanted the facts, because the facts would enable them to say, Oh, I got five products that would fix that set of problems for you. So it's, to me, it's all the same. It's about building relationships, and to people understanding each other. And reaching deeper than what would be available in a resume. Which is just wonderful. Because we say to somebody, oh, check out their LinkedIn profile and see if there's something special there. You could ask about, gee, I noticed you were a varsity lacrosse player at UMass when you were in school there. That's great. Tell me about that. Okay, yeah, I played on the team. I lettered three years, whatever, it was really exciting. Okay, are we done? Right? What did it mean to you to play on the lacrosse team? Yeah. What were some of the things that you learned? What scared you about that? What, you know, where did you see you grew most to that experience? Which of the players are still friends with you? And why did why those and not others on the team? I mean, that's very personal stuff. But I'm just saying, that's the stuff that people remember. That's the stuff that makes you stand out as a consultant. He took the time to listen.
Lynn:
And literally say, Well, I, this is this idea of listening. This was actually a theme. I did a podcast a couple of weeks ago with Michelle stanners. And we actually started out with level four listening. And it was when I was in banking, the feedback I got the most because I was the one that just wanted to pounce, and I just, I didn't listen to understand. I just listened to respond. And I also didn't listen in any way that would change my mind. My walls were up. And for me to learn to listen in the way I've had to as a coach is I've had to let my walls down.
Nick:
Well, you had to do that. I remember you telling me some stories as you were developing your waterskiing, about about things that your coaches asked you to do to push the envelope. I don't know whether you've ever shared any of those stories on your podcast, but I remember one in particular that had to do with skiing right on the edge. Yeah. Yeah, it's like that story. I can't remember the specifics. But I just remember the story of being right on the line of terrified because you told that story very well.
Lynn:
I've had I have so many of those stories of and you know, the definition of skiing is to be on the edge. And I was raised by a mother who said don't go near the edge. And I took it literally, I couldn't go to any edge of heights. I've had to work on my fear of heights and my fear of any kind of danger. So yeah, when the when they, when they explained to me that you actually have to let the ski go out from under you. And the edge of the ski is the only thing that's going to hold that and centrifugal forces, the only thing that's going to keep you from crashing into the water. It was like you have got to be effing kidding me. And then the first time you feel it, it's the most amazing sensation ever. And then it's an addiction. And then it's just a matter of building it slowly. But waterskiing. It's interesting, because waterskiing and now I'm working with horses, I also throw pottery, I'm obviously continuing to facilitate and be a coach. They're all the same thing. And one of the language I finally got for it came from Bruce Anderson, who helped me first get on a horse again after my accident. And he said, you give up control to get control. And just Tuesday morning, I was in the art studio with a I had i'd signed up for zoom potting class. So teaching I've never had an official lesson. I had somebody show me how to put clay on the wheel and get the wheel go in the right way when I first got my wheel three 10 years ago, and then YouTube has taught me every everything else. As he was teaching me something, all of a sudden the clay almost melted in my hands. And it's the same way a horse, when you connect with him will melt in your hands or when I'm facilitating and a group of people all of a sudden, open up you can I can feel the moment when I'm facilitating, when the people in the room say, oh, okay, yeah, we're going to actually work. Like we're going to, we're going to do this with our defenses down instead of walls up. And that language to give up control to get control waterskiing the same way. And there's a moment where you feel like, okay, I can let the ski go out from under me, and I'm not gonna die. So I can't really do you remember that story? Yes.
Nick:
You know, I started, I started my business for a couple of reasons. One was that I'd reached the point that I felt I couldn't work for anybody else anymore. But the other was, I thought that I, it would be a good growth path for me that I would be required to learn things and evolve in a way that would be different if I had my own company than I would if I were working for somebody else. So that was an explicit goal. Wow. I've, so I, I left the company that I was working for, and started off on my own and thought I had contracts lined up. And I did, but as soon as I was available, they disappeared. And for the first of three times in my business life, I went months without any income. So I was sharing that story with a friend, Virginia, who said to me, Nick, when you turn to the world and open your arms, it will welcome you. Which strikes me is the same sort of thing that you were just talking about, you have to give up control to get control. Mm hmm. And I've almost always found that to be true. That was one of the most valuable insights that I got, that I've had during my entire business, and it still plays for me today. When you turn to the world, and open your arms, it will welcome you. So I, I think that that's true in my business, but it's also true just generally in life. And sometimes you get punched in the nose, but most of the time you don't. And it's about the idea of opening your arms as you are you are welcoming whatever comes. And what turns out is that people are attracted to that. people show up when you open your arms. Now, where you open your arms, and when you open your arms may influence who shows up. So you have to make those decisions.
Lynn:
Well, I think that's exactly right. The picture. It's so funny, because when I was talking to Sean cook about this, he said, we see the shadow because our back is to the sun, if we could just turn to the light. You know, and I did this the other day as an experiment, I was walking on our camp. And I noticed that it was time of day where I had a fairly long shadow. And I actually did it I actually turned and put my back to the sun. And then I turned and put my face to the sun. And I thought what a different experience this is. And I actually opened my arms, I you know, you can get this picture of me through the woods looking at the sun, but it was a nice warm day. It was so amazing. But there is something sort of both, you know, there, it's very literal. Like it's not just a, a metaphor.
Nick:
No, it's quite literal.
Lynn:
And, you know, it's like you and when you did that what happened you? And what did it feel like inside? Because it feels very vulnerable to me to say, especially if you're starting your business and God without income. You know, I don't know about you. You can tell me did you have the question? I wonder if this is going to work? Am I going to have to go work for somebody again, even after I've said I don't like to work with people, or you know, don't want to work for somebody, what was it like to take that risk?
Nick:
So the at that time, the exhortation for me really was get off your butt and go make something happen. So not just passively turn it open your arms, but turn and do something. Right. make an offer. Yeah. Or make a request. Yeah. And so in, in a business sense. It involves deciding who do I want to attract or what kind of business do I want and how do I get to that? And at that time, what that meant was I ended up subcontracting work from a friend's company. For a while to get myself back on my feet again. And then continued on with that relationship. And he's turned out to be one of my closest friends in life. But it just meant to me and get off your butts, if you don't have enough business, turn to the world, open your arms, and it will welcome you. But what that means is you have to send a message out, saying, yo world, I'm here, and this is what I'm up to. And people will hear that, and the ones that are interested will find you. But you have to help them. It isn't passive at all. It sounds passive when I said it, but it isn't passive.
Lynn:
No, it's it's, um, the language I've heard is you have to take action. I mean, like, really, really commit and and you got to know I guess who your clients are? So you've really always been fairly clear on your clients, or did you? Did you find out who your clients were based on who you attracted?
Nick:
Um, it was a mix. So I got involved with my friend's company and started out subcontracting by doing custom training, development work, and then facilitation. And I did that for several years. And then I started selling for him. So I took a territory and was selling and was making pretty good money. But I read a book. And it heard about a guy named Alan Weiss, who wrote a book called million dollar consultant. And he's written a ton of other stuff over time. And I called him up and said, I've heard about you, I've read your book. Would you coach me? and happily, he said, Yes. And so in our first conversation, he said, he asked me about my history and so on what I had, and he said, Why are you selling other people's products? You've got, you've got brains, you've got products? Why don't you create your own products and sell them? Why are you giving away all your margin? That made an immediate sort of pivot. It's like, holy cow, he's right. I don't know how to do that. I know how to develop product, but I don't know how to build a company to go sell them. So with the up with my friends company, I was selling to all kinds of industries. And also all types of sizes of companies. But when I made the pivot, I knew that my background was in banking. I'd been trained as a banker, I'd worked for a bank consulting firm for 14 years. I knew that industry well. And so when he said, You got your own stuff, why don't you sell that? It's like, oh, my goodness, I need to go back to the banking industry. So I just started calling people that I knew in the industry from the old days, and saying, Okay, I'm out of my own now. And this is what I do. Can we talk? And enough people said, yes, that I built some momentum. Wow. And then every time I checked, every time I change strategy, I went four to six months without income. Is this okay? You're turning to a different part of the world and the old world dropped away and the new world isn't there yet? Yeah. So you know, there was a time I had to sell a car to make payroll. That's, that sticks with you for a while. But what I, it was just part of the learning process, okay, you're making the pivot to suddenly, you got to figure out a way to do that slower. So every one of those was a really good learning point. It's just, as one of my former bosses said, It scares the pants off you from time to time. I mean, again, going back to your waterskiing example, I'm guessing that's what going on the edge means it scares the pants off you from time Yeah. And then then it goes well, and then you get scared again. And you leave,
Lynn:
and you have to go, you have to actually go find that edge. And I think this is what a lot of people don't find enough of so they start they're so busy playing in the middle, and sort of away from the edges and hanging on to what's been there. And my thought with you, as you talked about your different pivots was, how many times if you hadn't made the pivot with the business have gone away anyway, because you had to make the pivot to stay current with the times and what was needed. In other words, so many companies don't disrupt themselves, and so they end up dying. Right?
Nick:
That's interesting, interesting question. I don't think my business would have died. If, for example, I found selling in New England to be more difficult than my colleagues seem to experience selling in the southeast, Southwest or any other region of the country, except maybe the northern Midwest. And it was just really hard. People were not particularly open a lot of history. And I've heard other salespeople say that as well in it. And finally, it occurred to me Okay, for whatever reason, this is a very hard territory for you. You can't bet the rest of your career on this territory. You got to do something else. You've got to go wider geographically you need to hire a couple of salespeople need to get them trained, and you need to cover a wider geography because you just aren't going to make a living focusing on New England. So it was that was hiring the salespeople, and really building a company was another one of the big pivots. And I can't remember now it was too long ago, man, we're way down the path on that business. But in the early days, there were years when we lost a bunch of money. And then there were years that we made a bunch of money, and we were up and down like a Yo, yo. And the question was, okay, that was the pattern that I saw in a previous employer, how do I fix that? eventually figured out how to fix it. But it's exactly what you say, finding the edge. How do you? How far is far enough?
Lynn:
Mm hmm. And how did you figure out how to fix it? What was the key? Do you have a? Or well, or was it a series of keys?
Nick:
It sounds silly to say this, but it was asking other people for to share their counsel. You know, Bob, you're really good at selling you build a sales organization? What do I need to focus on? Or, you know, Mary, I need a marketing program. Who do you know that does marketing? Could I hire them? I found my way through my network, the people that I hired, who were terrific. And they were they were a good fit. For me. They were a good fit for the market. They got the vision, they played hard. It's possible that I could have found people with more technical talent, but not such a good mix. For me as an owner. I just feel so grateful about the people that said yes, to come work with me and the firm. At that time, I learned a ton from them. They were very patient with me. And they were eager to learn and they absorbed what I could I can share with them. And they're all off in different jobs now doing great. And I, you know, we had a 10 year run together. And it was it was not always easy. But it was never done. Oh,
Lynn:
wow. Well, and you just you just like I would summarize what you said is you asked for help.
Nick:
No men never asked for help. And I would never
Lynn:
say that.
Nick:
I never asked for help. I asked for counsel.
Lynn:
I did he did say counsel, I struggled with the concept of help myself. Because I was Carrie, we talked about assumptions earlier. One of my assumptions, especially as an early leader in banking was if I'm in this job, I'm supposed to know. And my job is to help not ask for help. And that really hamstrung me, because when I finally came to realize, yeah, but if I could do it all myself, I wouldn't need this team. So I actually by definition, I'm already asking them for help.
Nick:
So one of the themes that we said we would talk about today is transitions. And we've talked about a few of mine. Yeah, I'm just curious. If you go back and look at your transitions and pivots. What was it that enabled you to pivot out of banking and then pivot to the consulting you did and then pivot to be a camp owner? And now pivot to consulting, you know, your coaching? You've done a lot of pivots and
Lynn:
a lot of pivots. Yeah.
Nick:
What is it that you've learned about pivoting? Or your ability to pivot? Or how to do that that stands out to you?
Lynn:
Um, that's, that's a very good question. And it probably one, you know, it's funny, you just called up a conversation, I almost forgot. And it was an early conversation as a banker, when I was working in the bank, in my hometown, and I had come in as an auditor. And of course, that's an expense. And not only is an expense, but people don't like the auditor. They just don't. So they they were never I was nobody was welcoming me with open arms when I would walk in the building or in the room. But he sat me down, he was like the head of consumer finance in this little bank I worked in in Wichita Falls, Texas, and he said, You know, when if you ever want to get anywhere in banking, you're gonna want to be on the revenue line, not the expense line. And even though I've been trained as an accountant, I had never thought of it that way. And of course, the accountants are keeping track of the revenue and expenses and all that. But it resonated with me. And for the rest of my career, I would pay attention to where I was. So when I went to head up credit training at Bank of America, I was on the revenue line, in a way because we were directly putting bankers out into the field. But as soon as I said, I want to do more of the leadership work, I knew I was going to be going more to an expense line. And that's when I got the opportunity to work with results based leadership on the revenue line, so that that advice carried through for almost all of my career is and it wasn't, it sounds like I'm making the decisions for money, but it wasn't that I was making the decision, although I did make a lot of decisions for money. But it was more about where do I fit in the picture? Am I at the, on the front line, or am I in the back office. And for somebody who got trained as an accountant, it's kind of funny because accountants are almost, unless you're running an accounting firm, you're in the back office, somehow, that I think influenced me to make the transition out of banking. And then it's been a learning journey, really against me wanting to have to learn, I really wanted to know, I didn't really want to have to learn anything. I called it my proving mindset instead of my improving mindset. But, you know, every now and then I just have a life defining moment that caused it to go one way or the other. And maybe one of the biggest pivots that has occurred, believe it or not, was the one that happened three years ago, when I got thrown from a horse, and pretty severely injured, and had to decide Am I going to, you know, and I handled it so much better than I would have 15 years earlier, because of all the growth I had been through, but I still had to face what I didn't know. And couldn't do. And, and that has, I've probably become better under pressure, as a result of that accident and getting back on the horse than anything I've ever been anything else I could have done. And it's actually even helped me. You know, I told you, my mother said, Don't go near the edge. I had a debilitating fear of heights. And because of the work I've done, was actually able to go zip lining in October, with almost no fear on very high repels and very long, high steep zip zip lines. So it's been a pretty big transition. So it's kind of been one life defining moment at a time. But isn't that what pivots are? If you find yourself at a moment, and you have to decide Am I going to go the way I've always gone? Or am I going to go a new way?
Nick:
Yes, I think that that's what pivots are if circumstances change, and you either shift with them or you don't. And it's hard to know. And I think that people who've talked about having a I don't want to call it a vision but a view. That's long term, but not a long term plan. In other words, I think the cycle times are now shorter in many regards than they were several decades ago. So I think it's useful as a business as well as a person to have a view about the direction you're going. But you can't plan very far ahead. A year, maybe two, right? That stuff changes so fast that this whole idea people call agility really means the ability to stop, reevaluate shift direction, based on the evolving set of circumstances you find yourself in because they are changing so quickly. And,
Lynn:
and ever more quickly.
Nick:
Right. And then to some extent, I think the concept people talk about resilience. And that has a lot of meetings and can mean different things if you're dealing with trauma as opposed to just life day to day. But I think resilience in the life day to day means just the ability to accept the change and move on. And Alvin Toffler wrote in, in the book years ago, just the third wave, I can't remember. He wrote that there were three skills that you had to develop, learn how to learn, learn how to choose and learn how to change. And I think those three, I've remembered those three, and that has been a useful reference point for me. What are you learning? How are you choosing? And are you and what do you need to change? Because if you don't change, then you get run over by the rest of humanity or whoever you're competing with, or whatever. I think people now may be a bit better at at learning to change because that's the environment they've, they've grown up in to some extent. But I'm not so sure they're better at learning how to learn and learning how to choose. And, and for me, as a business owner, learning to choose is really the heart of the pivot. It's, it's what you said, it's the control thing. I can't control what's going on around me. So I need to learn to choose wisely and frequently, and reevaluate my choices and then learn how to change in response to that.
Lynn:
Mm hmm.
Nick:
And those those are hard skills for many people.
Lynn:
You know, This is breaking up, I woke up this morning and I hadn't had a dream. And I very rarely had a lot of dreams. But I rarely get a dream that I feel like was almost like a piece of wisdom that was given to me. But but it what it said was all too much learning is just learning to make our defenses better. As opposed to making us stronger. And it attaches really, I woke up this morning, I was like, Ah, that is so true. You know, I've tried to make a better wall, instead of make me not need a wall. Because I'm strong from the inside. And I don't necessarily mean I'm saying this about myself, because that's very much been my journey. But a lot of learning is really, you know, just learning how to make it. So we don't have to learn but we have better protection against what's happening.
Nick:
So in your experience, how would somebody know that they were learning to defend as opposed to learning to change?
Lynn:
That's a great question. Well, I'll start with comfort, if you are feeling comfortable, you're probably learning to defend. Because when you're changing by definition, I think you have to be uncomfortable. And I just went through this, I had a writing lesson before we had this. And I didn't want to learn what she was telling me to do. And I found myself finding all kinds of excuses to not, she wanted me to keep my legs in a certain way on the horse that I found incredibly uncomfortable. And so I tried everything in my power to stay in my comfort zone. And then there was this, there was a moment where I just decided to drop in and feel what she was telling me to do, because I couldn't think my way to it. And all of a sudden, you know, and just for a little bit, but all of a sudden the horse and I were in a rhythm. And I would and I could tell from her voice because I wasn't really listening to her. Because I was having to feel it. I dropped into and actually learned something. And it was all different. And the horse kind of melted under me when we did that. So I was talking to him in a language he understood if that makes sense. Mm hmm. So yeah, it but it but I'm not gonna tell you it was comfortable. This like an uncomfortableness combined with flow. And I think that's when I know I'm learning.
Nick:
Yeah, I'm reflecting that last summer, I spent a lot of time sailing in a small boat 17 feet, oh, and on the Charles River, and we we went out my wife and I went out together. She's a, she's quite a bit more adventurous than than I am. But she doesn't play a big role in the story. So we would go out, we earned our rating to go out in stronger winds. And we would go out when the winds were running 1516 knots with gusts to 25, which is a lot in a small boat. And particularly a lot when the wind is tumbling over tall buildings and so is unpredictable. And early in the summer, when the wind would come up like that in this and the boat wouldn't be positioned right and the sails were popping and the sheets and how us were making all kinds of noise. I mean, a boat was just making all kinds of noise, I would be very feel very scared. And you know, I made some bad but not fatal mistakes. We never ended up in the water. But the boat groaned a fair amount from time to time. And by the end of the summer, like that was no problem. Okay, that's the noise it makes when you're out of trim, do something different. That's the noise that makes when the wind shifts do something different. So instead of being scared of the noise, it was a clue to a change. And that I had a zip line experience as well from a very high spot. And when we dropped off and we dropped straight down or I dropped straight down however, however many yards it was till the tension built up. It was that same feeling of terror in my stomach. And then they told us before we dropped on the zip line remember after you've dropped to look around the view from up there is really beautiful. Yeah. And I did and and that's it was the same experience in the sailboat. And when I got down to the bottom of the zip line and the guys hauled me down these great big burly guys just gave them a big hug. It's like I was just totally open to them. And they were very welcoming. It's like that was their job of course but yeah, you know, I just totally given up control. And in the sailboat, it's a similar thing. You have to control the boat but you're listening in a way that tells you when it's time To change, as opposed to being afraid of the signs that it's time to change. And that's a, that's a really good metaphor. Because if you're feeling fear, the question is okay, what is it trying to teach me as opposed to? How do I run away from it?
Lynn:
Yes, I think of that is when you have, the fear is informing you, it's not controlling you.
Nick:
Because you can go either way. But the point is, you have to take a deep breath and allow it to flow through as opposed to resist it.
Lynn:
That's exactly it. And, and it happens, it happens when we're speaking with people, it happens from where I'm on the, on the pottery wheel and happens on a horse a lot. And it is that feeling that goes through you. And then it's like, what is the signal as opposed to what's the noise, because the noise is that chatter in your mind that saying, you're going to die. And this is no good. And oh, my God, that boats about to break in half and look at those waves. And, you know, as opposed to, and I'm also a rower, and I went out one day on the way in the wind that I shouldn't have been out there when I was early on. And I really had to go into that space just to get the boat back into the boathouse. Because my option, my only other option was to flip the boat on purpose and try to swim it back in the wind. And that wasn't going to it was not going to be a good idea. It was spring and still very cold. But I feel like finding that place with fear. I wish I'd learned how to do it a lot sooner. In my life, I hear the train. Sorry. Oh, that's okay. I want to ask you a question about that. You know, you're coming to the end of your career, you you and I spoke a few weeks ago, and you said, you know, I'm I'm not going to be doing this? Well, none of us are doing it forever, but for much longer. And, you know, it's often a time of reflection when we're at these pivot points. But what would you say you wish you had known sooner that you wish anybody kind of in the world you work in? And whether it be banking or sales or whatever? What do you wish you had known sooner, that you would want other people to know that they can know sooner?
Nick:
I think the answer to that, or the value of my answer will vary depending on the history of the listener. I'm pretty anxious. You're not, like clinically anxious, but always a bit on edge. And I think one of the lessons that I heard a while back from a consultant I was working with was, you'll be fine. It'll be okay. And I have, to a large extent lived and managed my company on the basis of if we don't, whatever it is, we won't be okay. So, always keeping the fear factor up, like the fuel. Mm hmm. It's still there. But I think over the last few years, I've learned to respect my own capabilities to see I've been challenged and worked my way through it enough times that, like, well, what are you worried about, you'll figure it out. And I think maybe that's, it'll be okay. And you'll figure it out. And having the confidence in myself to trust that as opposed to worry about it. If I had learned out a bit sooner, I think it would have been a lot more pleasant for me and my family. Because I was always working from a little bit of a worried spot. And you know, now as I go into the next phase of my journey, I'm taking that with me, you know, I'll get into something new. And I'm not gonna know it yet. But it's like, it's okay. You'll figure it out. It's the first three seconds on the zip line. It's the boat when this when the sales are, you know, popping and banging. It's okay, you'll figure it out and you won't, it's likely you won't die. So I think that learning that lesson has been helpful. I'm not completely out of the woods. I you know, I'm not transformed, but I'm just more aware of the signals. Just to be okay with it. And, and and be like okay, some people will say Some people will say no, don't worry about it, you'll figure it out. I don't know if that makes sense to you.
Lynn:
That's a, I'm just thinking that is if, if I had known that sooner, I know my life would have been better because I had a lot of, I had that corporate anxiety called, you know, if you don't have this job, I call it the homeless sequence. If I lose this job, I might not get another one. If I don't get another one, I'm going to not have you know, be able to pay my mortgage, if I can't pay my mortgage, I'll be on the street, and I'll die on the street here, you know, and that happens in a nanosecond. So I would do just about anything to keep my job because I thought I was gonna die if I didn't have a job. And it didn't even dawn on me, I remember the moment where I said, I realized I had earning power. And we had moved to like, lower, I had left the bank. I just started out on my own, I think I just started Kearns and Associates. So this would have been 2001. And we were getting a bank loan to build our house. And I had this moment where it was like, Am I able to pay that mortgage, and then the homeless sequence almost started. And then I thought, I'll always be able to find something to do to make money. So yeah, I can pay the mortgage. And it was like, I realized I had earning power. And, and that that was a real asset, you know, versus thinking that I had to have just any certain job or any certain type of status, because in banking, I'm sure you've seen this status was often as important as the money itself. You know, were you a vice president or a senior vice president? And if you were a senior vice president, which meetings were you in? And if you were in the right meetings, did you sit at the table? Or were you one of the people that had to sit on the wall? You know, those are silly, little sad status things, but they seem to matter?
Nick:
Well, they do. They do. And banks are very bureaucratic about that sort of thing. And I think as entrepreneurs, that's something you can choose. Not to be part of. Right. I mean, certainly in your own company, you can choose not to, to do that. But I think some some people like to be told what to do, and other people don't. And I think those of us who don't start our own companies, because then we get to decide nobody else. And if we starve, it was our own fault. And, you know, is one of my friends said, you know, you, as a business owner, you make decisions about time, and if you make those decisions badly over a long enough period of time, you're going to be back in a job. So yeah, I think, you know, I do some consulting with a group of bankers now, where I'm encouraging them to think about themselves in a different way to develop personal marketing programs to increase their visibility in the market and attract people to them, rather than chasing after folks. That's just shocking to me out of us not really shocking, but it's interesting, out of a group of 35 or fewer want to play. The others are no, I'm, you know, I'm a relationship manager, I've got a job at that goals. And, you know, part of the bank very proud of the bank, but the five are like, yeah, I get that. But boy, I could, I could really develop a very cool business for myself working in this bank. Let's figure out how I'm going to define that. And then let's go do it. Those are the entrepreneurs that everybody's cut out for that. And, and in order to have that they have to, they have to be willing to face the fear that they might not meet their goals when you're because they're pivoting.
Lynn:
Right?
Nick:
They might might die. They might not, they might lose their house, but probably they won't.
Lynn:
Because they actually do have capabilities, like your your thought of being able to respect your own capabilities. You know, I've coached people who've been through some pretty traumatizing things. And oftentimes, what I find out is that their greatest fear is that they'll have to go through another traumatizing thing. Similar, you know, I don't want to go through that again. And what I've pointed out to them, and ask is, but you've already proven you can go through that. So what would be so bad about it? And they usually realize not so much, because, you know, I'm going to figure it out. Because I won't be as bad this time if I have to go through it again, because I learned some things last time. Right. And I think that's just remembering. That's useful.
Nick:
Yeah, that's a good life lesson. Like that's what experience gets you i think is, after you've done it a few times, it doesn't freak you out anymore. Mm hmm. And so then it's time to go on and move to the next bigger boat or the next bigger market or whatever and get the pants scared off you again and learn how to do it and that's what we call growth.
Lynn:
That's what we do. That's why skiing You're so fun for me because there's always a faster speed or once you reach the fastest speed, there's always a shorter line of rope. And there's no end to how short you can get the rope. And I will never be at the shorter, shorter, shorter ends. But you just realize things that you can't do at one level, once you reach it, you kind of need the next level to keep you sharp. So I have a question about your transition, as you move to doing something new, where's music going to play in that? Because I want to hear a little bit about your music experience that happened right before you became a banker or a trainer or bankers. Yep.
Nick:
I started playing the guitar and singing music when I was 12, when I was largely self taught, I was playing, playing the trumpet, and then later the baritone horn and school bands and so on. But the guitar and the singing were something that I did on the side. And I develop that well enough that when I went to college, I recruited partners and we formed little singing duo's or trios, and we sang and bars and ski lodges and so on. And when I graduated from college, as I was graduating, I think there was a group of people in the bar, who were from a fairly well known but second level band at that point, and they said, We just lost a guitar player, we're headed out on a world tour, would you like to come? And I thought about it for a couple of days and decided to go to business school, and take the job I'd been offered in Chicago. So when I got to Chicago, I played in a restaurant there for a couple of months, one night a week, but it just got to be too much. And I dropped it. So I have guitars, I have them here in the office with me. But over time, there'd be periods where I'd play frequently. And then other periods, sometimes years where I wouldn't play at all. Well, I'm playing again now. And actually feeling excited about it, I'm learning some new things. I'm recording myself again to hear, you know, start on the improvement process. That when I'm playing that instrument, and and i'm not struggling, meaning I've my fingers and so on are in shape, I just lose myself in the sound. I'm in a spot that isn't it's otherworldly, I'm just in the sound of the of the guitar. And if somebody interrupts me, it's jarring, because I'm off in a different spot. And so I look forward to that. I don't know whether I'll play in bands again, or I don't know what I'll do with it. But just rediscovering how I can be transported to a different place. Through the sound of the instruments that I have is remarkable. And I I wish that I hadn't ignored it for so long. But I'm not ignoring it now. And it's just, it's truly a joy. It's just, it's just a joy. I don't know how other how else to extract to describe it.
Lynn:
Well, I was just about, I was just about to ask you what you were most looking forward to as you transition to your next chapter. But it sounds like you may have just given me the answer to that.
Nick:
Yeah, I've thought about this a lot, because I like to think about things a lot. And I've decided that there might be four questions I could answer, or four things to think about something I could do for fun. Something that I would do to teach others, something I would do to contribute to the community in which I live and something that I would pursue to learn just for its own sake. And I don't know that that model is going to be helpful to me long. But I'm beginning to fill in the pieces and sailing I think will be part of the fun and music will be part of the fun. And maybe I'll be teaching sailing and maybe I'll be teaching music I have no idea. But I think those four things define sort of a well rounded next next stage for me. I love to teach and I like to develop models and help people learn things so I'm sure I'll find a way to do that. And I love the music. I've always loved the music. I thought I was going to be a professional musician. I'm glad I didn't go that route because now I can be retired or restructured or gold gold differently. I can I can I can just do it for its own beautiful sake.
Lynn:
You're going to be refired
Nick:
refired That's right.
Lynn:
Now will you still write because I'm going to miss your writing if you stop because I've been reading you off and on for 20 something here.
Nick:
Yes, thank you for that. I have no plans to stop. Good. It's it's a matter of shifting from what has largely been. I have too, I have to write a sale stuff this weekend. Yeah, too, I get to write a sale stuff this weekend. So I, I don't know whether the column will change whether my focus will change whether the frequency will change. And I'll continue to write I love to write next to playing the guitar. Writing is something else that sends me to a different place. And it's just, it's hard work, but it's pure joy,
Lynn:
pure joy, and it comes through. I so enjoy reading those. So tell people how to find you. And find find yourself thoughts, because I know they're gonna want to hear. And we'll have this in our show notes as well. But if somebody is driving down the road or listening and wants to be able to go find You sure do that while driving down the road, though.
Nick:
Man, if you just searched online, Nick Miller bank consulting, you'd probably find me but my company's name is clarity, advantage, clarity, advantage.com. And then there's a Knowledge Center within that website. And the sales sites are featured prominently in the Knowledge Center, and not all 900. And something of them are there. But most of them are. So you can you can search by topic and find whatever you like.
Lynn:
That's wonderful. I'm gonna I haven't actually ever gone to your knowledge center, I follow you on LinkedIn. And that's another way I guess people can find you. Can we share that with them as well? Oh, sure.
Nick:
It's just, I'm just, I think I'm just Nick Miller on LinkedIn. But if you type in Nick Miller clarity, or Nick Miller band consultant, not ever having tested that, of course, but it sounds like a good theory.
Lynn:
I'll get a link to I'll make sure there's a link in our show notes.
Nick:
Thank you. So thank you. Thank you for the conversation.
Lynn:
It was fabulous. Thank you so much. I loved your questions of me, it's a little I always find when the mic feels like it's been turned around a little bit. So it was very, very fun for me, and I can't thank you enough. It's great that we got to do this after all these years.
Nick:
great pleasure. It's like sitting on the back porch strumming together. So thank you very
Lynn:
much. That's what people say about these podcasts. It's like sitting in on a conversation, kind of like a fly on the wall. So enjoy the rest of your day. And thank you so much. Thank you for listening to the creative spirits on wage podcast. I started this podcast because I was having these great conversations and I wanted to share them with others. I'm always learning in these conversations, and I wanted to share that kind of learning with you. Now what I need to hear from you is what you want more of and what you want less of. I really want these podcasts to be a value for the listeners. Also, if you happen to know someone who you think might love them, please share the podcast and of course, subscribe and rate it on the different apps that you're using, because that's how others will find it. Now, I hope you go and do something very fun today.
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