FREEDOM MONEY: DARIO SNEIDERMANIS

Transcript

WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 5/20/2024 8:34:35 PM
Duration: 4113.136
Channels: 1

1
00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:08.500
Dario Schneiderman is an Argentinian Bitcoiner and the creator of Moon Wallet. Moon, spelled with 2 u's, is an extremely

2
00:00:08.885 --> 00:00:20.009
easy to use bitcoin wallet available on both Android and iPhone, allowing people around the world to easily use bitcoin from the comfort of the mobile phones they already own.

3
00:00:26.775 --> 00:00:30.955
Seems unfortunately we have, a protest going on right now. Hopefully

4
00:00:32.135 --> 00:00:42.219
hopefully, it doesn't bleed into the into the audio of the interview, you know? Yeah. It's good good to find. It is what it is. Right? You can't you can't choose when there's a protest. So, Dario,

5
00:00:43.800 --> 00:00:45.820
you were born in Argentina? Yes.

6
00:00:47.675 --> 00:00:50.094
Do you still live in Argentina? I do. Yeah.

7
00:00:50.475 --> 00:00:51.215
How has

8
00:00:51.835 --> 00:00:53.614
as an American to an Argentinian,

9
00:00:53.995 --> 00:00:54.975
like, how has

10
00:00:55.480 --> 00:00:58.460
growing up in Argentina, how do you think it shaped your experiences?

11
00:00:59.720 --> 00:01:00.620
Yeah. I mean,

12
00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:02.440
I think there's,

13
00:01:03.575 --> 00:01:08.315
it changed a bit in the situation in Argentina in the last 30 years. We had

14
00:01:09.015 --> 00:01:10.395
at least I think,

15
00:01:10.775 --> 00:01:11.595
3 different

16
00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:13.770
stages, if you will.

17
00:01:14.710 --> 00:01:15.930
The first 10 years,

18
00:01:16.310 --> 00:01:16.790
were pretty

19
00:01:17.670 --> 00:01:18.170
economically,

20
00:01:18.550 --> 00:01:28.384
they were, pretty good. The Argentinian peso was a stable coin. It was tied 1 to 1 to the dollar Oh, it was pegged? Yeah. It was pegged.

21
00:01:29.630 --> 00:01:30.130
So,

22
00:01:30.830 --> 00:01:34.690
I think those were the the the good times in the last 30 years.

23
00:01:35.870 --> 00:01:37.985
But then in 2001,

24
00:01:38.365 --> 00:01:41.185
there was a really big event. The economy was

25
00:01:41.485 --> 00:01:42.225
really bad,

26
00:01:42.924 --> 00:01:45.905
and the country was running out of US dollars.

27
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:48.420
So

28
00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:51.460
from, like, 1 week to the next,

29
00:01:52.240 --> 00:01:53.300
everyone's accounts

30
00:01:53.985 --> 00:01:57.605
in the bank, go got frozen. You could only withdraw

31
00:01:58.225 --> 00:02:00.165
up to, I think, $300,

32
00:02:01.185 --> 00:02:01.925
per week.

33
00:02:03.579 --> 00:02:11.200
And if you had any dollars in the bank, like, that was from the pesos accounts, but if you had any dollars, they were completely frozen.

34
00:02:12.015 --> 00:02:12.915
And that situation

35
00:02:13.295 --> 00:02:14.915
escalated throughout the year

36
00:02:16.334 --> 00:02:21.860
until at some point, you couldn't withdraw any money. And there's no warning. There's no warning. No warning.

37
00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:22.840
Everyone's,

38
00:02:23.700 --> 00:02:24.200
savings,

39
00:02:25.790 --> 00:02:27.135
frozen. So it was

40
00:02:27.515 --> 00:02:28.735
a really bad year.

41
00:02:29.275 --> 00:02:30.975
I think in that year, we got

42
00:02:31.915 --> 00:02:35.695
like 5 presidents in 2 weeks. Like, it was crazy. Really? Yeah.

43
00:02:37.440 --> 00:02:39.940
And I think that, from that point forward,

44
00:02:40.400 --> 00:02:41.140
the situation,

45
00:02:42.640 --> 00:02:43.860
fluctuated a bit.

46
00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:45.975
But it was always,

47
00:02:46.355 --> 00:02:47.235
pretty bad.

48
00:02:47.795 --> 00:02:48.295
There's

49
00:02:48.835 --> 00:02:49.475
a lot of,

50
00:02:50.115 --> 00:02:52.100
the peso started inflating a lot.

51
00:02:53.060 --> 00:02:54.760
So I know this year,

52
00:02:55.380 --> 00:02:57.960
we're going to have probably, like, 60% inflation.

53
00:02:58.820 --> 00:03:01.694
So 60% inflation this year? This year.

54
00:03:02.015 --> 00:03:03.235
So that means that,

55
00:03:03.775 --> 00:03:10.190
prices are changing all the time. Like, if you go abroad for a couple months and you go go back, then you don't know what the prices are.

56
00:03:11.130 --> 00:03:12.750
You get used to this eventually.

57
00:03:13.290 --> 00:03:14.830
You get used to thinking

58
00:03:15.465 --> 00:03:18.204
in multiple currencies at the same time. Like,

59
00:03:18.504 --> 00:03:22.605
everyone knows in the street what the exchange the current exchange rate

60
00:03:23.580 --> 00:03:30.215
for the dollar between the peso is. And you actually have even, like, multiple exchange rates because

61
00:03:30.515 --> 00:03:33.575
there's the official one, which no one can get really. Right.

62
00:03:34.114 --> 00:03:36.614
And then you have, like, the black market one.

63
00:03:36.915 --> 00:03:42.340
So the official one is just Yeah. It is They just say it, but it doesn't you can't use it. I think,

64
00:03:43.040 --> 00:03:44.500
by up to $200,

65
00:03:45.825 --> 00:03:50.005
per month using the official rates. Like, through a bank or something? Through a bank,

66
00:03:50.385 --> 00:03:50.885
but

67
00:03:51.665 --> 00:03:53.045
not many people will do.

68
00:03:53.940 --> 00:04:04.305
And so, then you have, like, a whole range of different dollars. Like, you have the black market dollar. You have the bitcoin dollar, which is the one that you get if you buy in a Bitcoin exchange.

69
00:04:04.685 --> 00:04:06.545
And you have these many things. So

70
00:04:07.245 --> 00:04:10.465
I think it's it gives you a mental model

71
00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:13.140
to deal with a lot of uncertainty.

72
00:04:13.920 --> 00:04:15.220
Like, people don't know

73
00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:17.220
they can't save in pesos,

74
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:22.095
so they do some crazy things. They save in, in TVs or,

75
00:04:23.035 --> 00:04:32.580
fridges or Like, they buy televisions. Yeah. They buy televisions. They buy, like, they buy anything that's going to be more stable than the peso, which is almost everything.

76
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:38.100
So crazy things happen As I'm saying. In in the Argentinian economy.

77
00:04:39.585 --> 00:04:40.085
So,

78
00:04:40.544 --> 00:04:42.164
yeah, I think that

79
00:04:43.664 --> 00:04:44.565
we're used to

80
00:04:45.185 --> 00:04:48.090
living with a lot of currency controls.

81
00:04:49.030 --> 00:04:50.970
The government is is super strict

82
00:04:51.350 --> 00:04:53.210
on what you can do with your money.

83
00:04:54.950 --> 00:04:55.385
It's,

84
00:04:56.105 --> 00:04:59.885
at times, it's really hard to move money in or out of the country.

85
00:05:01.625 --> 00:05:03.805
So you start not relying on institutions.

86
00:05:04.185 --> 00:05:07.770
There's super low trust on banks, on the governments.

87
00:05:08.789 --> 00:05:10.569
So it's really tough to to

88
00:05:11.669 --> 00:05:13.525
know what to do with your money.

89
00:05:14.245 --> 00:05:15.365
A lot of people, like,

90
00:05:16.245 --> 00:05:23.145
start storing your money under the mattress is a super common phrase in Argentina, and it actually happens. Like But they're not storing pesos?

91
00:05:23.530 --> 00:05:24.910
They're no. It's dollars.

92
00:05:25.210 --> 00:05:30.430
Yeah. I think Argentina is the largest holder of physical dollars, like cash,

93
00:05:31.185 --> 00:05:31.925
in the world,

94
00:05:32.865 --> 00:05:33.365
because,

95
00:05:33.824 --> 00:05:39.410
people just, like, want to have the only thing that they trust is is the the the $100

96
00:05:40.030 --> 00:05:40.530
bill.

97
00:05:42.270 --> 00:05:43.970
And and yeah. So so

98
00:05:44.830 --> 00:05:46.370
with time, you you get

99
00:05:46.805 --> 00:05:47.305
crafty

100
00:05:47.605 --> 00:05:50.745
on on how to deal with all these things and and,

101
00:05:51.445 --> 00:05:52.425
try alternative,

102
00:05:53.045 --> 00:05:53.545
methods,

103
00:05:54.165 --> 00:05:54.665
for

104
00:05:55.289 --> 00:05:58.669
storing your money, for investing, for moving your money around,

105
00:05:59.849 --> 00:06:01.069
for buying stuff.

106
00:06:01.930 --> 00:06:07.245
There's a lot of common knowledge about when to buy stuff and when not to buy stuff, and,

107
00:06:08.264 --> 00:06:14.470
I think that it's it's even pretty different from other countries in South America. It's it's quite

108
00:06:14.930 --> 00:06:15.510
a special,

109
00:06:17.010 --> 00:06:19.350
culture regarding money and regarding

110
00:06:19.965 --> 00:06:26.305
how you relate with the institutions. Like, just because the money has been so bad for so long. Yeah. Exactly. And and there's, like,

111
00:06:26.605 --> 00:06:29.120
people already know how to deal with this. Right.

112
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:32.980
So if you go, say, to Brazil, which is next to Argentina,

113
00:06:34.080 --> 00:06:35.940
you're going to see that,

114
00:06:36.415 --> 00:06:37.535
when when money,

115
00:06:37.855 --> 00:06:38.995
starts to inflate,

116
00:06:39.535 --> 00:06:42.675
peep people start selling because they they have a lot of uncertainty.

117
00:06:43.189 --> 00:06:52.585
In Argentina, it's the other way around. They already know how this behaves. So they start buying stuff because the money burns because it's losing value day to day.

118
00:06:53.305 --> 00:06:57.645
So, so there's all these culture around how, how do you deal with inflation,

119
00:06:58.585 --> 00:07:03.640
which I, I think it's really interesting because in a way, right now, Argentina is like a first mover

120
00:07:04.020 --> 00:07:07.640
because many other parts of the world are starting to see inflation.

121
00:07:08.215 --> 00:07:09.035
And the and

122
00:07:09.735 --> 00:07:15.035
as Argentinians, we're seeing how they are starting to learn about the side effects of inflation,

123
00:07:15.414 --> 00:07:17.115
which is super interesting because

124
00:07:17.900 --> 00:07:22.000
we see them first hand, every day. They're super experienced. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

125
00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:25.040
So for once, Argentina is ahead.

126
00:07:26.694 --> 00:07:28.615
But, yeah, other than that, I I think it's,

127
00:07:29.414 --> 00:07:35.509
it's a really interesting mix because you have all these problems, but at the same time, you have a super developed,

128
00:07:36.289 --> 00:07:36.789
culture.

129
00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:39.270
There's a lot of talent in Argentina.

130
00:07:39.810 --> 00:07:41.669
There's a really good infrastructure

131
00:07:42.414 --> 00:07:43.794
compared to other places,

132
00:07:44.254 --> 00:07:45.555
that may not have,

133
00:07:46.735 --> 00:07:47.474
good institutions.

134
00:07:48.175 --> 00:07:50.194
And so everyone has Internet.

135
00:07:50.810 --> 00:07:55.629
There's a high penetration of smartphones so people can access the Internet.

136
00:07:56.650 --> 00:07:57.629
They are educated,

137
00:07:58.325 --> 00:08:01.625
and so they they understand a lot of things of

138
00:08:02.005 --> 00:08:05.305
both what's going on inside the country and outside the country.

139
00:08:06.580 --> 00:08:08.200
So, yeah, I I think it's,

140
00:08:08.820 --> 00:08:14.760
it's a perfect breeding ground for some of the things and the technologies we're seeing right now, such as Bitcoin.

141
00:08:16.025 --> 00:08:17.725
And I think that's one of the

142
00:08:18.264 --> 00:08:19.405
of the reasons

143
00:08:19.945 --> 00:08:23.405
why we're seeing right now so high penetration of these technologies,

144
00:08:24.780 --> 00:08:28.720
because people not only understand them, but but also need need them.

145
00:08:30.060 --> 00:08:30.460
There's

146
00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:32.320
like, you have to explain

147
00:08:33.565 --> 00:08:36.625
much less things to an Argentinian about why,

148
00:08:38.615 --> 00:08:39.115
you

149
00:08:40.180 --> 00:08:48.759
you need to have your money in a way that no one can touch it, that no one can freeze it, and why you need to be careful with where you put your money.

150
00:08:50.645 --> 00:08:53.225
On the other hand, yeah, the the there's,

151
00:08:54.645 --> 00:08:58.505
when people are willing to to try a lot of new things,

152
00:08:59.070 --> 00:09:03.010
there's more failure cases. People make mistakes. Right.

153
00:09:03.550 --> 00:09:07.330
We we recently have a really good really big

154
00:09:07.710 --> 00:09:08.345
net goo

155
00:09:10.105 --> 00:09:11.464
event with with all,

156
00:09:12.105 --> 00:09:15.245
there was a a currency that was supposedly

157
00:09:16.290 --> 00:09:22.390
one to 1 to the dollar and and had, like, really good it it looked like a really good investment opportunity.

158
00:09:23.185 --> 00:09:23.685
And,

159
00:09:24.225 --> 00:09:27.605
for some reason, it it it went like fire in Argentina.

160
00:09:28.545 --> 00:09:31.425
And a lot of people put their savings in there. So,

161
00:09:32.880 --> 00:09:34.660
yeah, you have to be, like

162
00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:45.165
on the other hand, you have you have to be extra careful. You're more vulnerable because you're Exactly. Exactly. Because your institutions have failed you. So you're you're doing everything on your own. So you become more vulnerable. And you

163
00:09:45.705 --> 00:09:56.639
your trust structures went down, and you don't know what to trust. You don't have the institutions. You don't know who is telling the truth, who is not, and so it's really tough.

164
00:09:57.019 --> 00:09:59.279
And you you really have to take, like, a

165
00:09:59.715 --> 00:10:00.455
first principles

166
00:10:00.835 --> 00:10:04.295
approach where you try to understand, well, like, how does this work?

167
00:10:04.755 --> 00:10:10.230
Which I think is is is a thing that that that's been promoted a lot in the last,

168
00:10:11.089 --> 00:10:14.230
years by Bitcoiners and and people in the industry.

169
00:10:16.715 --> 00:10:21.535
I think it stems from a different place, but it reaches the same conclusions. So,

170
00:10:23.210 --> 00:10:26.710
yeah. So the 2 of us are both part of this global Bitcoin community.

171
00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:28.150
Do you feel,

172
00:10:28.690 --> 00:10:31.670
like, a strong disconnect? Do you feel a strong disconnect

173
00:10:32.275 --> 00:10:35.815
with American Bitcoiners or European Bitcoiners as an Argentinian?

174
00:10:36.675 --> 00:10:37.655
That's a good question.

175
00:10:38.915 --> 00:10:44.540
I think that, I feel more connection to Bitcoiners in general because they are thinking about these

176
00:10:44.920 --> 00:10:46.140
issues even if

177
00:10:46.520 --> 00:10:47.020
theoretically.

178
00:10:48.680 --> 00:10:48.920
It's,

179
00:10:50.305 --> 00:10:57.765
it's hard for for someone that's lived their entire lives in a country where everything works to understand how it feels

180
00:10:58.320 --> 00:10:59.700
when things don't work.

181
00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:15.435
Be because you can reason about it in a theoretical level, but seeing it is quite different. And there's all these second or the other effects that there's other things that happen because of this that are super hard to anticipate when you don't see them

182
00:11:15.735 --> 00:11:16.235
firsthand.

183
00:11:18.060 --> 00:11:19.920
So, yeah, I I think that,

184
00:11:21.100 --> 00:11:25.040
say, it's much much easier to explain noncustodianship

185
00:11:26.165 --> 00:11:28.504
and understand truly why it's important,

186
00:11:29.685 --> 00:11:33.545
as an Argentinian that maybe as a European or an American.

187
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:39.940
Being holding your own Bitcoin, not letting an institution hold your Bitcoin. Exactly. Like

188
00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:41.460
so nonconsolidation

189
00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.300
is this property of

190
00:11:44.115 --> 00:11:48.455
not having anyone be able to either move your money or freeze your money,

191
00:11:49.155 --> 00:11:50.455
which is something that

192
00:11:50.835 --> 00:12:01.120
it was what how money worked 500 years ago. Like, all money. Or it's like how cash works. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so in the I think in the last 500, 600

193
00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:02.080
years,

194
00:12:03.125 --> 00:12:09.865
we lost these properties, in order to get some others, in order to be able to travel without all your gold bars

195
00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:12.420
on you and and that kind of stuff.

196
00:12:13.680 --> 00:12:14.500
And so

197
00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.180
right now we are super used to that. We don't question it.

198
00:12:18.560 --> 00:12:19.060
Like

199
00:12:19.524 --> 00:12:21.305
if it works, you don't question it.

200
00:12:22.245 --> 00:12:26.825
But now we have the technology to to have something that helps

201
00:12:27.270 --> 00:12:37.965
the best of both worlds, like a money that has that can't be frozen, that can't be moved by a government when they decide to move it for what whatever reason.

202
00:12:38.505 --> 00:12:44.070
But at the same time, it's safe to use and and all the stuff you expect from having your money in your bank.

203
00:12:45.270 --> 00:12:47.210
So, yeah, I think that it's,

204
00:12:48.070 --> 00:12:53.695
it's easier for an Argentinian to understand, but it's not impossible for for an American or or

205
00:12:54.095 --> 00:13:03.680
a European to to empathize with it. It's just a little bit more work. You have to question Yeah. This is a beginning education part instead of removing the experience. Exactly. You

206
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:05.779
you you need to to question

207
00:13:06.560 --> 00:13:08.820
a a few things that that you give for granted,

208
00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.055
but eventually, you get there. And and I mean, I think

209
00:13:15.075 --> 00:13:20.214
your your comment about Argentinian use of cash, specifically US dollars, which

210
00:13:21.090 --> 00:13:27.830
in in the traditional money sense is the closest thing you get to self custody bitcoin of holding your own your own bitcoin

211
00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:29.190
is

212
00:13:29.965 --> 00:13:35.905
there's a sharp disconnect there because, I mean, I was just at the Oslo Freedom Forum, and I was doing a

213
00:13:36.365 --> 00:13:37.265
panel on

214
00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:46.720
the dangers of central bank digital currencies. And I asked the audience a question. Right? And I asked the audience what the question was, if you use fiat money, if you use your local currency,

215
00:13:47.315 --> 00:13:52.775
do you use cash more than you use digital money? Do you use cash more than you use credit cards or payment apps?

216
00:13:53.235 --> 00:13:53.735
And,

217
00:13:54.115 --> 00:13:59.490
you know, maybe 1% of people raise their hand saying they use cash more. Right? But if that was in Argentina,

218
00:14:00.190 --> 00:14:07.764
you don't even have the option to use the digital money apps really. Right? You just end up getting screwed. Yeah. So so you have, different

219
00:14:08.065 --> 00:14:09.365
use cases. So,

220
00:14:10.384 --> 00:14:12.910
what people want to do with with the cash

221
00:14:13.310 --> 00:14:17.250
is store it, and they use it for savings. They they don't want to spend it usually,

222
00:14:17.949 --> 00:14:30.175
because that's the hard money for them. That's the money that they know that it's not going to devaluate, that they know they can control. They they they see where it is, they can touch it, and so they understand it.

223
00:14:32.180 --> 00:14:33.080
And so,

224
00:14:34.660 --> 00:14:35.160
they

225
00:14:35.460 --> 00:14:41.725
they spend mostly the pesos that they are earning. They they spend the credit cards if they use them.

226
00:14:42.824 --> 00:14:43.324
But,

227
00:14:44.264 --> 00:14:48.050
yeah, I think that it's not that common, to to

228
00:14:48.910 --> 00:14:49.649
pay with,

229
00:14:50.829 --> 00:14:55.815
cash in dollars in cash in Argentina. It's super common to use cash, though.

230
00:14:58.035 --> 00:15:00.455
Like, 50% of the population is is,

231
00:15:01.779 --> 00:15:08.279
like, operating in the black market or outside the system. Like, 50% of the economy. That's a lot.

232
00:15:08.660 --> 00:15:11.725
That means that most companies are outside

233
00:15:12.105 --> 00:15:13.964
of the system. And so,

234
00:15:14.745 --> 00:15:17.005
you cannot rely on banks. Like, even,

235
00:15:17.625 --> 00:15:28.140
even if they work right now, like, you can never know how much more they will work. But Is it a class divide? Can, like, rich people rely on banks or just nobody rely on banks? I'm sure. It depends

236
00:15:28.545 --> 00:15:30.165
on whether you are working,

237
00:15:30.625 --> 00:15:31.125
in

238
00:15:31.584 --> 00:15:33.204
in a, like, formal,

239
00:15:33.824 --> 00:15:34.565
work relationship,

240
00:15:34.944 --> 00:15:35.665
and it's,

241
00:15:36.225 --> 00:15:37.204
all by the book,

242
00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:40.600
which is like 50% of the population got accesses.

243
00:15:41.300 --> 00:15:41.800
Still,

244
00:15:42.420 --> 00:15:44.040
that part of the population,

245
00:15:44.660 --> 00:15:45.640
there's a huge

246
00:15:46.660 --> 00:15:47.445
percentage of

247
00:15:48.485 --> 00:15:48.805
of,

248
00:15:49.365 --> 00:15:51.785
that population that doesn't have money

249
00:15:52.245 --> 00:15:54.185
in the banks, even though they could,

250
00:15:54.645 --> 00:15:59.200
because they don't trust them, because they've seen they've been burned before. Like,

251
00:15:59.660 --> 00:16:00.720
everyone that has,

252
00:16:01.420 --> 00:16:04.160
at least 25 years in Argentina has seen

253
00:16:04.555 --> 00:16:05.055
firsthand,

254
00:16:05.595 --> 00:16:08.894
how it felt when, you lose all the money and

255
00:16:09.274 --> 00:16:12.815
they they take all your money away and they they start putting restrictions.

256
00:16:13.280 --> 00:16:16.180
And even today, there there are a lot of restrictions

257
00:16:16.480 --> 00:16:20.340
for moving the money in and out of the country. What are the current restrictions?

258
00:16:21.004 --> 00:16:22.464
So if you're bringing,

259
00:16:23.004 --> 00:16:25.665
US dollars from outside the country into Argentina,

260
00:16:26.764 --> 00:16:27.264
you're,

261
00:16:28.045 --> 00:16:30.285
forced to sell them at the local

262
00:16:30.770 --> 00:16:37.670
at the official rate, which is half its value. So you That's the only time you get the official rate is when Yeah. Exactly. So you you

263
00:16:38.765 --> 00:16:43.265
the base is that you lose half your money, just to do that, and then you have to pay taxes,

264
00:16:44.285 --> 00:16:45.760
on on the remaining stuff.

265
00:16:47.040 --> 00:16:47.540
And,

266
00:16:48.400 --> 00:16:50.260
you appear in in, like

267
00:16:50.640 --> 00:16:54.260
you start being tracked by the governments, and and

268
00:16:54.985 --> 00:17:02.605
there's always these promises that nothing they are not going to do anything with that information, but then the government changes, and and then

269
00:17:03.065 --> 00:17:04.045
4 years later,

270
00:17:05.370 --> 00:17:09.470
you get all the restrictions that that, people promised that you wouldn't have.

271
00:17:10.050 --> 00:17:10.550
And

272
00:17:11.130 --> 00:17:15.315
so, yeah, it's super tough to get money in inside the country.

273
00:17:15.934 --> 00:17:19.395
People are starting to use, Bitcoin and crypto a lot for that.

274
00:17:20.895 --> 00:17:21.554
And there's

275
00:17:22.070 --> 00:17:24.090
and then depending on your industry,

276
00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:26.250
there might be different restrictions.

277
00:17:27.750 --> 00:17:29.450
There's a really big industry,

278
00:17:30.070 --> 00:17:30.570
in

279
00:17:31.435 --> 00:17:31.935
selling,

280
00:17:34.315 --> 00:17:35.215
like, exporting,

281
00:17:35.835 --> 00:17:37.455
vegetables and and

282
00:17:38.395 --> 00:17:40.930
beef and that kind of stuff, and they have, like,

283
00:17:41.490 --> 00:17:41.990
super,

284
00:17:43.010 --> 00:17:43.830
hard regulations.

285
00:17:44.290 --> 00:17:48.870
They lose, like, I don't know, 70, 80% of the value. It goes to the government.

286
00:17:50.495 --> 00:17:56.515
And, yeah, it changes month month to month. Like, right now, is there a limit right now on how much money you can send outside the country?

287
00:17:58.059 --> 00:18:01.679
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. But there could be. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

288
00:18:02.059 --> 00:18:03.039
I mean, there's

289
00:18:03.580 --> 00:18:09.524
all these complex rules and and and they're changing all the time, so it's really difficult to navigate.

290
00:18:10.705 --> 00:18:12.919
It creates a really big incentive for,

291
00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:19.575
multinational companies not to come to Argentina because it's so hard that even if they come, eventually, they go

292
00:18:20.054 --> 00:18:20.875
away because,

293
00:18:22.135 --> 00:18:25.195
it doesn't make sense. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. It's crazy.

294
00:18:25.654 --> 00:18:25.894
When

295
00:18:26.615 --> 00:18:30.520
so with your personal story, when does Bitcoin enter your story? Sure.

296
00:18:31.780 --> 00:18:32.280
So

297
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:36.600
the first time I I heard about Bitcoin was in 2011,

298
00:18:38.755 --> 00:18:40.375
with some friends in college.

299
00:18:41.155 --> 00:18:45.015
We were You were in college in Argentina? Yeah. In college in Argentina.

300
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:46.780
A friend of mine

301
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:52.860
told me about it, sent me a link to the paper. I write it, and and it was beautiful.

302
00:18:53.320 --> 00:18:54.220
And and

303
00:18:55.145 --> 00:18:58.045
I I remember thinking, what? This might even work,

304
00:18:58.745 --> 00:19:00.925
but but I didn't gave it,

305
00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:04.240
and I I didn't do much with it at the time,

306
00:19:05.659 --> 00:19:06.140
because,

307
00:19:06.700 --> 00:19:14.125
I was with other things, and I didn't pay that much attention, and and it didn't seem that it was something real at the time.

308
00:19:15.465 --> 00:19:17.805
And then 2 years later in 2013,

309
00:19:18.585 --> 00:19:20.860
there was a a really big conference,

310
00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:23.740
Bitcoin conference in Argentina,

311
00:19:24.360 --> 00:19:25.240
the Latin American

312
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.915
I think it was the first Latin American Bitcoin conference. Now a lot of people came from all over the world,

313
00:19:31.455 --> 00:19:33.475
and and I went there and and

314
00:19:33.855 --> 00:19:36.275
I started seeing that it was something real.

315
00:19:36.710 --> 00:19:41.370
Other people were working on this, other people were doing stuff and and thinking about it.

316
00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:44.810
And so I I started to get a lot more involved

317
00:19:45.245 --> 00:19:56.430
and starting to think about how it could fit. Like, Bitcoin is so different from everything else that it it takes you a little bit to to understand the basics and how it fits.

318
00:19:58.010 --> 00:20:01.390
And I think that a year or so later, I was

319
00:20:01.894 --> 00:20:03.914
working from Argentina remotely

320
00:20:04.375 --> 00:20:08.934
for a startup in in the US, and they were paying me in,

321
00:20:09.335 --> 00:20:11.920
in dollars in the US. So I need

322
00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:18.960
to bring the money into Argentina, and at the time, we we couldn't bring any money. There were really strong currency controls.

323
00:20:19.455 --> 00:20:23.395
And so I used Bitcoin. Like, I I bought Bitcoin in the US, sent the Bitcoins,

324
00:20:24.015 --> 00:20:25.775
and sold them in,

325
00:20:26.335 --> 00:20:28.115
bought Bitcoins and sold them in Argentina.

326
00:20:28.895 --> 00:20:31.430
And And it was, like, a really magic moment.

327
00:20:31.810 --> 00:20:36.710
Like, Bitcoin didn't care where I was, who I was. It just worked instantly.

328
00:20:38.154 --> 00:20:39.774
So that first moment

329
00:20:40.315 --> 00:20:41.855
is is really special, and,

330
00:20:43.835 --> 00:20:50.280
and from that point forward, I started thinking like, hey. Like, this awesome. It's an awesome technology, and you can actually

331
00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:52.600
solve a really social problem,

332
00:20:53.060 --> 00:20:53.880
with technology,

333
00:20:54.424 --> 00:20:56.265
but it's super hard to use. Like,

334
00:20:56.985 --> 00:20:57.965
I I had to

335
00:20:58.265 --> 00:21:06.070
do too many things. I had to understand too many things, too many concepts in order to be able to do that, which was super simple. I just wanted to make one payment,

336
00:21:06.690 --> 00:21:09.270
and and I had to go through all these hoops.

337
00:21:11.090 --> 00:21:11.830
And so

338
00:21:14.215 --> 00:21:20.155
I started thinking about how can we make it so that everyone in Argentina can use this. Right. Like,

339
00:21:20.695 --> 00:21:28.500
at first, I I started with a really Argentinian focus because I saw the problem. It was clear that they needed this technology.

340
00:21:30.315 --> 00:21:30.975
And, yeah,

341
00:21:31.434 --> 00:21:33.934
that's how I eventually started working

342
00:21:34.235 --> 00:21:37.215
on on an application to make this easier,

343
00:21:38.450 --> 00:21:39.830
to make moving money,

344
00:21:40.610 --> 00:21:44.790
without trusting anyone else easier. And and with the hopes that eventually,

345
00:21:45.715 --> 00:21:50.775
we're getting there. There's still more work to be done, but eventually the idea is that everyone,

346
00:21:52.035 --> 00:21:57.270
should be able to use this. Even if they don't care about the technology, if they don't care about the details.

347
00:21:57.570 --> 00:22:00.150
It's just a tool. Right? Like a hammer,

348
00:22:00.530 --> 00:22:05.105
this is just another tool, and it could be used for different reasons for different people.

349
00:22:06.285 --> 00:22:07.105
So yeah.

350
00:22:07.485 --> 00:22:10.865
It's interesting because it seems like for you and for other Argentinians,

351
00:22:11.310 --> 00:22:11.970
like, Bitcoin

352
00:22:13.470 --> 00:22:17.490
solves 2 problems for you. Right? It solves spending restrictions,

353
00:22:18.270 --> 00:22:20.770
and it solves being able to actually save

354
00:22:21.565 --> 00:22:23.905
your your hard work. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

355
00:22:24.605 --> 00:22:27.585
Yeah. In engineering, we have all the financial problems,

356
00:22:27.885 --> 00:22:28.544
I think.

357
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:35.775
We have inflation. We have problems with the institutions freezing money. We have problems with restrictions moving the money.

358
00:22:36.975 --> 00:22:42.355
We have restrictions with what you can buy and sell, like, what are the currencies you can buy.

359
00:22:44.015 --> 00:22:44.515
So

360
00:22:45.850 --> 00:22:46.590
I think

361
00:22:48.650 --> 00:22:57.295
that Bitcoin goes down all these layers and instead of trying to fix the layers it goes all the way around and says hey, like, we can do this without all this

362
00:22:57.675 --> 00:22:58.175
infrastructure.

363
00:22:58.555 --> 00:23:00.415
Like, this should be much easier.

364
00:23:01.679 --> 00:23:14.115
And so in a way, Bitcoin is much simpler than than, what all this system that we've been building for the last 100 years layer after layer of banks and credit cards and payment processors and governments.

365
00:23:14.975 --> 00:23:20.250
Bitcoin just just does away with everything and and starts from the ground up,

366
00:23:20.650 --> 00:23:24.245
with very clear principles, with a very clear design

367
00:23:24.865 --> 00:23:26.645
and tries to create money,

368
00:23:26.945 --> 00:23:29.925
that that you can use without trusting anyone.

369
00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:35.260
So yeah, I think it solves many, many of these problems for Argentinians.

370
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:36.700
I think that

371
00:23:37.935 --> 00:23:41.155
the missing problem right now that Bitcoin doesn't address is volatility,

372
00:23:41.855 --> 00:23:48.470
so there's a lot of people, we see a lot of people that are living month to month. Right. And so,

373
00:23:48.930 --> 00:23:51.110
recommending bitcoin to them is irresponsible

374
00:23:51.810 --> 00:23:53.030
in a way because

375
00:23:53.570 --> 00:23:55.350
it's a super volatile currency

376
00:23:55.810 --> 00:23:57.965
and it's going up but in

377
00:23:58.345 --> 00:23:59.645
a frame

378
00:24:00.105 --> 00:24:01.725
of maybe 4 or 5 years.

379
00:24:02.345 --> 00:24:05.005
So if you're going to need to spend your money

380
00:24:05.310 --> 00:24:06.770
the next month or so,

381
00:24:07.070 --> 00:24:13.250
then, Bitcoin doesn't solve a a problem for you. It's it's pretty dang it could could be pretty dangerous.

382
00:24:13.665 --> 00:24:20.725
Even in a even when, like, the alternative is a currency that's dropping 60% year over year? Yes. Because, like, if you spend your money,

383
00:24:21.105 --> 00:24:24.890
like, within 30 days, then inflation doesn't matter that much.

384
00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:29.050
It's not a super big problem. Like, if you don't have savings,

385
00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:38.225
then it's not a big problem. It's just like almost a guarantee Yeah. 8% down or something. Exactly. The Cost of doing business. Yeah. Exactly. In Argentina,

386
00:24:38.924 --> 00:24:40.465
all all the people factor

387
00:24:40.970 --> 00:24:42.590
that that they're going to have inflation.

388
00:24:44.330 --> 00:24:51.855
And and yeah, the system adapts. That's interesting. Yeah. Because I I kind of was operating under the assumption that the volatility would feel

389
00:24:53.195 --> 00:24:54.415
less as a negative

390
00:24:54.770 --> 00:25:01.350
to people that are living in a complete you know, their alternative is a complete failed currency. Sure.

391
00:25:01.875 --> 00:25:08.935
I think that there are some currencies that are are in a much worse shape. Right. And you might like, in in periods of hyperinflation,

392
00:25:09.750 --> 00:25:11.450
like, in in I think in,

393
00:25:11.830 --> 00:25:12.330
89,

394
00:25:12.870 --> 00:25:17.210
a year before I was wrong that we had, like, hyperinflation in Argentina,

395
00:25:17.934 --> 00:25:19.315
and at that point,

396
00:25:19.934 --> 00:25:23.315
you cannot even, like, press it for the next week,

397
00:25:23.695 --> 00:25:25.715
because it's it's really, really bad.

398
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:27.500
But,

399
00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:31.020
for for spending the

400
00:25:31.320 --> 00:25:34.300
day to day and and like if you don't have savings,

401
00:25:35.295 --> 00:25:38.434
What the government currencies have, kind of,

402
00:25:38.815 --> 00:25:39.955
is that they are predictable.

403
00:25:40.415 --> 00:25:46.350
You kinda know what's going to happen. With Bitcoin, you don't. So that factors in in, like,

404
00:25:46.650 --> 00:25:47.370
it it gives,

405
00:25:48.170 --> 00:25:48.670
it's

406
00:25:49.530 --> 00:25:57.365
it's reasonable to be fearful of what's going to happen in the next month with Bitcoin because because no one knows. Could go up 50% or you go down Exactly.

407
00:25:57.665 --> 00:26:01.580
Exactly. And and the risk of having your money slashed by 50%,

408
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:04.059
when you wake up

409
00:26:04.360 --> 00:26:09.019
is too big. That's kind of what happened in 2001. Right? For sure. For sure. Yeah. But

410
00:26:09.355 --> 00:26:16.495
so We're like the government just comes in. Yeah. There's restrictions. It says you can't slow your money down. I believe that's why people in Argentina

411
00:26:16.955 --> 00:26:21.320
usually tend to to seek dollars. Right. Because it's much more predictable.

412
00:26:21.700 --> 00:26:29.414
It has inflation level, but it's much smaller than the Argentinian pesos. Compared to what you're used to, there's no inflation. Exactly. So, maybe eventually,

413
00:26:29.794 --> 00:26:31.255
bitcoin will have,

414
00:26:32.195 --> 00:26:32.934
will stabilize,

415
00:26:33.394 --> 00:26:35.174
if it grows enough.

416
00:26:35.630 --> 00:26:37.650
I don't know. We'll see what happens.

417
00:26:38.190 --> 00:26:38.690
There's

418
00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:41.410
many things have to happen before,

419
00:26:41.870 --> 00:26:49.355
we get to that point, but I guess it could happen eventually and at that point it might make sense to go all in on Bitcoin.

420
00:26:50.935 --> 00:26:51.595
But yeah,

421
00:26:53.420 --> 00:26:54.320
yeah, you can,

422
00:26:55.500 --> 00:26:58.080
there's some companies right now exploring

423
00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:02.275
using Bitcoin as a payment network and maybe

424
00:27:02.655 --> 00:27:04.675
use having US dollars

425
00:27:04.975 --> 00:27:07.715
inside of it. That has some trust involved.

426
00:27:08.095 --> 00:27:09.315
You are trusting someone,

427
00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:10.700
but,

428
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:12.540
in Argentina,

429
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.179
people will usually prefer to trust like a foreign company

430
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:19.100
than their government.

431
00:27:19.514 --> 00:27:21.215
It's so bad in there that

432
00:27:21.835 --> 00:27:24.414
almost anything is better than trusting the governments

433
00:27:24.794 --> 00:27:30.770
and the local banks. They'd rather foreign companies. Yeah. Or or Foreign company, foreign central bank, like, the full foreign Exactly.

434
00:27:31.230 --> 00:27:37.985
I I mean, they are saving in in US dollars, and so they are crossing the the US, central bank.

435
00:27:40.445 --> 00:27:44.030
And I guess that's for for the risk profile of an Argentinian,

436
00:27:44.330 --> 00:27:46.590
that's, good enough risk to take,

437
00:27:48.090 --> 00:27:50.485
but I think we can do better. Eventually,

438
00:27:51.185 --> 00:27:53.845
we should do better than than even having to trust,

439
00:27:54.945 --> 00:28:00.380
any central bank. Yeah. I mean, my hope my hope is that as adoption increases with Bitcoin,

440
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:06.265
as more money, as more purchasing power goes into Bitcoin, volatility should kind of Definitely.

441
00:28:06.825 --> 00:28:10.045
Level out of time. Like, volatility is slowly,

442
00:28:10.505 --> 00:28:14.525
going down. It's going to take a while. It's a it's a multi decade process,

443
00:28:15.220 --> 00:28:15.720
But,

444
00:28:16.340 --> 00:28:21.080
we have patience. We'll see. Yeah. It seems like the protest has now turned into a concert.

445
00:28:22.260 --> 00:28:24.815
I hope it's not picked up on the mic too much, but

446
00:28:25.595 --> 00:28:26.895
gotta respect people's

447
00:28:27.515 --> 00:28:28.575
freedom to protest.

448
00:28:29.780 --> 00:28:31.640
As an Argentinian, do you think

449
00:28:33.620 --> 00:28:38.120
do you think it's possible to for people to have freedom without good money?

450
00:28:40.165 --> 00:28:41.305
I don't think so.

451
00:28:41.765 --> 00:28:42.505
I mean,

452
00:28:43.205 --> 00:28:45.465
money is the building block for,

453
00:28:45.845 --> 00:28:46.405
a lot of,

454
00:28:46.965 --> 00:28:47.465
human

455
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:49.580
interaction and activities. And

456
00:28:52.760 --> 00:28:53.720
so in a capital

457
00:28:54.360 --> 00:28:55.500
in a in a

458
00:28:55.800 --> 00:28:56.300
capitalist

459
00:28:56.755 --> 00:28:57.255
world,

460
00:28:59.395 --> 00:29:10.100
capital and money is super important. And if someone has control of your money, it has it it has control of on your actions. Like, people do crazy things when their money is at stake.

461
00:29:11.520 --> 00:29:14.435
So I think that to to have true freedom,

462
00:29:15.535 --> 00:29:16.595
you really need

463
00:29:16.895 --> 00:29:18.415
to to not have to,

464
00:29:20.300 --> 00:29:22.400
you have to be thinking about the repercussions

465
00:29:22.700 --> 00:29:25.680
on your money of your actions in the real world.

466
00:29:26.620 --> 00:29:27.900
So that that's actually

467
00:29:28.455 --> 00:29:35.760
I think it's a combination you need a combination of basic building blocks. You you need money, but you also need privacy, right, because,

468
00:29:36.800 --> 00:29:44.660
even if you have a really good technology for money, the government can come to you there and force you to freeze your money.

469
00:29:45.745 --> 00:29:52.325
So there's a couple of of building blocks that you you need in today's world for for true freedom,

470
00:29:53.320 --> 00:29:57.100
freedom to protest. Right. I like here freedom to express and and

471
00:29:59.240 --> 00:29:59.740
so

472
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:01.980
yes.

473
00:30:03.865 --> 00:30:04.745
Up to now we

474
00:30:05.385 --> 00:30:07.165
I I don't think we've seen,

475
00:30:07.945 --> 00:30:08.445
many,

476
00:30:10.345 --> 00:30:12.430
successful experiments of of

477
00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:13.970
creating a money

478
00:30:14.750 --> 00:30:17.090
in the modern times that that actually

479
00:30:17.630 --> 00:30:18.690
enables freedom,

480
00:30:19.310 --> 00:30:26.485
for people, and and that enables them to to do whatever they want to do with the money or or with the words or with their actions.

481
00:30:27.505 --> 00:30:31.220
I think that that Bitcoin is is a really interesting experiment.

482
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:36.420
I don't know if it's going to succeed. I hope it does, but, there there are still many,

483
00:30:37.120 --> 00:30:38.180
challenges ahead,

484
00:30:38.775 --> 00:30:42.715
but at least we're trying. It's a it's a really interesting experiment.

485
00:30:43.414 --> 00:30:46.075
And even if it fails, I think the idea

486
00:30:47.070 --> 00:30:50.350
and the staff we learned along the way about what,

487
00:30:50.909 --> 00:30:55.330
how money should work and how institutions should work and who you should trust because

488
00:30:55.705 --> 00:30:58.365
at the end of of the day, it's a question of of trust.

489
00:31:01.145 --> 00:31:04.845
I I think if Bitcoin doesn't succeed, something will, eventually.

490
00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:09.600
So you would disagree with Bitcoiners that think that Bitcoin's inevitable?

491
00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:13.760
I don't think Bitcoin is inevitable because

492
00:31:15.165 --> 00:31:27.250
there's still many challenges. We we had to solve many problems ahead. Like, we we haven't faced the worst enemies of Bitcoin yet. Not even worse. So yeah. Exactly. So it's it's a hard assumption to say that we're going to

493
00:31:27.790 --> 00:31:35.885
to win all of those battles, but we're going to try. We're going to give our best. What's your biggest concern? Do you have do you have one on the top of your head?

494
00:31:36.265 --> 00:31:40.365
Yeah. Right now, I think, Bitcoin scaling. Like, Bitcoin processes,

495
00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:42.549
like, 7 transaction

496
00:31:43.090 --> 00:31:44.390
transactions per second.

497
00:31:45.809 --> 00:31:48.150
So that's and Visa

498
00:31:48.525 --> 00:31:53.265
processes, like, 10,000 transactions per second and 40,000 in peak, times.

499
00:31:53.725 --> 00:31:55.025
So we are, like,

500
00:31:55.885 --> 00:31:58.065
at least 3 zeros away

501
00:31:58.480 --> 00:31:58.980
from,

502
00:32:00.080 --> 00:32:02.420
from that kind of, processing power.

503
00:32:03.280 --> 00:32:20.190
We have right now a new technology calling, called the Lightning Network, which helps a little, but maybe give us it gives us, like, one more 0, maybe 2. Really? That's all you think? Yeah. Yeah. You think it only brings you, like, 700 trans transactions per se? Yeah. Because,

504
00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:22.110
for me, like,

505
00:32:23.585 --> 00:32:36.470
it it works really well between, say, 2 exchanges that they're exchanging money all the time. You never have to close your channels, which is this lining concept of, like, making a a Bitcoin transaction in the Bitcoin channel. Like,

506
00:32:37.030 --> 00:32:38.090
it's super infrequent.

507
00:32:39.565 --> 00:32:43.905
But for end users, it's super frequent because the they like, if you have,

508
00:32:44.285 --> 00:32:45.425
lightning in a phone,

509
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:47.539
the

510
00:32:47.919 --> 00:32:58.735
the funds that are locked in those channels, the liquidity that is being used is mostly useless because they're offline all the time, and you're not using it. So you have to close channels pretty frequently.

511
00:32:59.755 --> 00:33:01.774
And even if if that weren't true,

512
00:33:02.715 --> 00:33:14.625
you need at least one transaction per person, to open the first channel. Right. And so if you like, it would take, like, more than a decade to make one transaction per person in the world.

513
00:33:15.485 --> 00:33:18.765
So you think the people that claim that lightning is a

514
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.059
Yeah. This beautiful scaling solution

515
00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:31.815
is is not quite there yet. It's great. I mean, lightning is is a super good technology. It works it works today, which is super important.

516
00:33:32.595 --> 00:33:36.855
There's still some work ahead to be done, but it it works fairly well.

517
00:33:37.350 --> 00:33:46.915
It's just not a magical solution. It it won't scale much more than that. It still it still needs improvements as well. Like, there could be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But we need to be thinking about scaling

518
00:33:47.295 --> 00:33:50.115
in every layer. Yeah. At the base chain, in lightning,

519
00:33:50.415 --> 00:33:51.235
in other layers.

520
00:33:52.175 --> 00:33:54.095
I think that there there are many ideas,

521
00:33:54.790 --> 00:33:55.610
going around.

522
00:33:56.150 --> 00:33:58.250
It's not like it's impossible to

523
00:33:58.630 --> 00:33:58.950
do, but,

524
00:34:00.470 --> 00:34:00.970
maybe

525
00:34:02.230 --> 00:34:05.835
it's it's common to think that lightning solved solved

526
00:34:06.375 --> 00:34:06.875
scaling.

527
00:34:07.495 --> 00:34:16.550
And It's a solved problem. Yeah. Exactly. And it definitely isn't, like, we are seeing first hand the the the limits of it. So to to kinda distill

528
00:34:17.250 --> 00:34:19.270
what I think you're trying to convey here

529
00:34:19.665 --> 00:34:22.725
is is your main concern with Bitcoin right now is

530
00:34:24.465 --> 00:34:25.765
the idea of having

531
00:34:26.305 --> 00:34:40.825
as many people as possible be able to use Bitcoin in a fully sovereign way where no company, no government can stop them from spending and cannot stop them from seizing their money. We're not necessarily there yet. Yeah. Exactly. So so for me, like, the the macro risk

532
00:34:41.285 --> 00:34:41.845
is that,

533
00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:53.265
we get comfortable with housing things are. We we select this what what Bitcoin is today is what Bitcoin is, and we stopped working on scaling it and making it accessible

534
00:34:54.125 --> 00:35:03.040
in a really trustless way for everyone. Right. And we settle for Bitcoin banks, which is exactly the same thing that we had before, but with

535
00:35:03.819 --> 00:35:11.835
the increasing financial exposure Right. Which wasn't the goal in the first place. And, like, maybe I mean, in that situation, you'd also you still have interoperability.

536
00:35:12.135 --> 00:35:16.295
They could transfer between each other a little bit more competition, but still not ideal. Yeah.

537
00:35:16.775 --> 00:35:17.515
And, I mean,

538
00:35:18.040 --> 00:35:21.340
if if if this turns out to be like, if interoperability

539
00:35:21.720 --> 00:35:22.460
and openness,

540
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.420
turns out to be openness, I don't know, but interoperability

541
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:30.494
at least turns out to be a good idea, then banks can copy it. Like, if they can get together,

542
00:35:31.035 --> 00:35:33.615
and build an interoperable protocol between them,

543
00:35:34.030 --> 00:35:36.050
the thing that they cannot do is

544
00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:42.450
not hold people's money because it hurts their business models, and and it hurts the the entire

545
00:35:45.065 --> 00:35:47.405
idea of a bank of what a bank does.

546
00:35:47.865 --> 00:35:48.685
And so,

547
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:58.420
I think that what what gives Bitcoin value is the unique things that only Bitcoin can do. And having your money in a self sovereign way

548
00:35:58.825 --> 00:36:01.885
is something that only Bitcoin can do it in the way that it does.

549
00:36:03.225 --> 00:36:03.965
And so

550
00:36:04.905 --> 00:36:07.920
in a way, you could say that Bitcoin scales. Self custodianship

551
00:36:08.220 --> 00:36:09.180
doesn't. Right.

552
00:36:10.940 --> 00:36:18.425
And, yeah, my biggest fear is that we sell for for custodial solutions, Bitcoin banks. Where you're trusting companies, trusting governments.

553
00:36:18.885 --> 00:36:19.385
And

554
00:36:19.685 --> 00:36:22.185
we end up in the same place where we started.

555
00:36:23.765 --> 00:36:26.185
So, yeah, I think more scaling work is needed.

556
00:36:27.560 --> 00:36:30.860
But I I hope that eventually when it starts to, like

557
00:36:31.560 --> 00:36:33.900
on the other hand, Bitcoin has this,

558
00:36:34.995 --> 00:36:36.455
like, closed loop when

559
00:36:37.075 --> 00:36:39.655
Bitcoin starts to not scale because peep

560
00:36:39.955 --> 00:36:41.655
there's huge demand for transactions,

561
00:36:42.515 --> 00:36:43.175
and there's,

562
00:36:44.099 --> 00:36:46.680
the capacity, the processing capacity is fixed.

563
00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:48.280
Fees go up,

564
00:36:48.580 --> 00:36:57.445
and so it starts to hurt, and people start to realize that, hey. Like, maybe we should be working on getting fees lower. Right. So there is an incentive for our players,

565
00:36:58.625 --> 00:37:02.890
to to event like, when it starts to hurt to to work on, scalability.

566
00:37:03.510 --> 00:37:07.610
And it's also going to be a problem even for, custodial companies. Right.

567
00:37:07.990 --> 00:37:16.345
Because their cost will go up. Yeah. Exactly. So I hope that eventually, like, everyone is going to align into the fact that we need to keep working on the problem.

568
00:37:17.285 --> 00:37:23.400
Which kinda I mean, it kinda goes back to your own personal experiences. Right? Because, I mean, what I've noticed with Bitcoin

569
00:37:23.940 --> 00:37:43.480
is one of the key value props of Bitcoin is that it's a system that nobody controls. Right? Yeah. And because nobody controls it, it's very hard to change. Yeah. So you only really see change when there's a lot of pain that's felt, when people get burned. Yeah. And in Argentina, that it's kind of a similar situation, right, where people are getting burned and they they seek out solutions

570
00:37:44.020 --> 00:37:48.425
to stop to stop feeling the pain. Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, it's,

571
00:37:49.045 --> 00:37:50.665
it's reasonable for Bitcoin,

572
00:37:51.125 --> 00:37:53.145
to get harder and harder to change,

573
00:37:53.845 --> 00:37:54.985
because that's that's

574
00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:56.900
a protection mechanism.

575
00:37:57.680 --> 00:38:00.160
It's the same mechanism that that,

576
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:07.565
doesn't allow our government to come in and change things. So so I think it's important to to to keep that property

577
00:38:08.905 --> 00:38:11.165
and and to work with it and eventually

578
00:38:11.704 --> 00:38:13.085
as it starts to hurt,

579
00:38:14.310 --> 00:38:18.810
if everyone agrees that it's a problem and and that we should be working on it,

580
00:38:19.110 --> 00:38:19.610
then

581
00:38:20.150 --> 00:38:21.370
I'm sure we will.

582
00:38:22.775 --> 00:38:23.435
But, yeah,

583
00:38:23.815 --> 00:38:28.395
these things take time. And when it hurts, it hurts now. Right. So

584
00:38:30.580 --> 00:38:31.960
I think it'd be,

585
00:38:32.500 --> 00:38:37.800
interesting to start working now on on at least the ideas of how we could make

586
00:38:38.555 --> 00:38:39.055
Bitcoin,

587
00:38:39.755 --> 00:38:40.495
more scalable,

588
00:38:41.515 --> 00:38:42.655
with that while

589
00:38:43.035 --> 00:38:46.870
keeping all all these interesting properties of Bitcoin. Right?

590
00:38:47.430 --> 00:38:47.910
Because,

591
00:38:48.310 --> 00:38:51.850
it's easy to scale it if you give away some of the properties.

592
00:38:52.230 --> 00:38:53.430
Right. But

593
00:38:53.830 --> 00:38:54.330
yeah.

594
00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:57.225
I think that at least it like, if you get

595
00:38:57.605 --> 00:38:58.425
every Argentinian

596
00:38:58.805 --> 00:39:00.105
on board in Bitcoin,

597
00:39:01.605 --> 00:39:02.985
you already have a problem.

598
00:39:04.359 --> 00:39:04.859
So

599
00:39:05.560 --> 00:39:11.099
I do believe that there there's a really big need, at least, I don't know, 1, 2,000,000,000 people,

600
00:39:11.560 --> 00:39:13.420
really need, self custodianship

601
00:39:13.954 --> 00:39:15.494
and and to have their money

602
00:39:16.035 --> 00:39:17.655
in a self sovereign way.

603
00:39:18.674 --> 00:39:19.174
So

604
00:39:19.555 --> 00:39:27.010
I I think we should like, maybe it's not for everyone, but at least for these people, it's important that that Bitcoin can solve the problem.

605
00:39:27.630 --> 00:39:28.930
And I don't know. We're,

606
00:39:29.230 --> 00:39:32.095
working on it going in that direction, but it's

607
00:39:32.714 --> 00:39:40.030
it's a hard problem. It takes time, and and the Bitcoin community is is super hard hardworking, and and and

608
00:39:40.590 --> 00:39:42.210
I I think it's super focused,

609
00:39:43.070 --> 00:39:53.965
on the right problems. So I hope that, eventually we we will go there. But I believe it's it's one of the biggest technical challenges right now. There are other challenges nontechnical,

610
00:39:54.345 --> 00:39:54.845
but

611
00:39:55.225 --> 00:39:58.580
Yeah. So let's talk about working on it. Yep. You

612
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:00.740
have Moonwallet with 2 u's,

613
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:04.340
one of the most popular mobile wallets. You can run it on your phone.

614
00:40:05.655 --> 00:40:06.315
When did

615
00:40:06.775 --> 00:40:10.875
the vision for Moon Wallet occur to you? When did you decide

616
00:40:11.175 --> 00:40:17.920
to proceed forward with building Moon and how are you inspired for to to make it what it what it is? Sure.

617
00:40:19.820 --> 00:40:20.320
So

618
00:40:21.575 --> 00:40:23.015
it's it's started after,

619
00:40:23.494 --> 00:40:23.994
seeing,

620
00:40:24.535 --> 00:40:26.795
the the the value firsthand,

621
00:40:27.174 --> 00:40:29.850
actually experiencing it. My I,

622
00:40:30.230 --> 00:40:31.130
by that point

623
00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:32.890
I had already,

624
00:40:33.510 --> 00:40:34.970
read a lot about Bitcoin,

625
00:40:35.430 --> 00:40:37.450
and thought a lot about Bitcoin,

626
00:40:37.765 --> 00:40:39.305
but experiencing it

627
00:40:39.765 --> 00:40:41.705
is something much more powerful.

628
00:40:43.685 --> 00:40:44.345
And so

629
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:46.940
at the time, it was, this was,

630
00:40:47.560 --> 00:40:48.060
2014,

631
00:40:48.440 --> 00:40:49.340
just 2015.

632
00:40:52.734 --> 00:40:56.734
Argentina Argentina was in a really bad situation, so it was,

633
00:40:57.775 --> 00:41:01.295
pretty clear that that, the problems were clear. That,

634
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:03.620
money didn't work in Argentina.

635
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:05.780
Banks didn't work in Argentina.

636
00:41:06.560 --> 00:41:12.154
And there's problems with money and banks everywhere in the world, but in Argentina, the the it was

637
00:41:12.855 --> 00:41:15.835
clear to everyone in the street. Like, you go to anyone

638
00:41:16.855 --> 00:41:20.369
and and ask them about it, and they're going to tell you

639
00:41:20.830 --> 00:41:21.330
pretty

640
00:41:22.030 --> 00:41:22.530
specifically

641
00:41:22.910 --> 00:41:24.770
what what all the problems are.

642
00:41:26.030 --> 00:41:26.850
And so

643
00:41:27.375 --> 00:41:28.435
it's certainly being

644
00:41:29.855 --> 00:41:34.835
a question of how can we use this technology to solve this real world pro problem,

645
00:41:35.855 --> 00:41:36.835
for Argentinians.

646
00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:37.700
And

647
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:39.619
eventually,

648
00:41:40.160 --> 00:41:42.099
as as the idea progressed

649
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:43.380
and and,

650
00:41:44.640 --> 00:41:45.460
we understood

651
00:41:47.895 --> 00:41:50.075
what the technology could do at that point.

652
00:41:50.615 --> 00:41:52.875
We on on the one hand, we

653
00:41:53.575 --> 00:41:56.150
realize about the global potential of this.

654
00:41:57.589 --> 00:42:02.250
Like, it it Bitcoin works exactly the same if you're paying someone that's in front of you that,

655
00:42:02.710 --> 00:42:05.905
than if it's, again in a category with restrictions

656
00:42:06.205 --> 00:42:09.025
and if it's in the other, side of the world.

657
00:42:10.365 --> 00:42:10.615
So,

658
00:42:12.300 --> 00:42:14.160
it became clear that it should

659
00:42:15.020 --> 00:42:19.600
we could do a solution that worked for many other places rather than only for Argentina.

660
00:42:21.465 --> 00:42:23.325
But at the same time, there there was

661
00:42:23.705 --> 00:42:27.645
a clear need for a for a wallet that focused on

662
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:34.660
on people that don't know about Bitcoin, that don't know about the entire technology stack,

663
00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:44.484
which is like an a lot of knowledge. Like, you you have to to buy your 1st bitcoins, you have to understand what an address is, what the wallet is, what the wallet isn't,

664
00:42:45.025 --> 00:42:46.464
what an exchange is,

665
00:42:46.785 --> 00:42:49.490
what the price is, how it fluctuates,

666
00:42:49.950 --> 00:42:56.049
what KYC is. There's so many concepts and things that people have not been exposed to before.

667
00:42:58.645 --> 00:43:05.860
So the idea was, like, how can we make it so we we get it to the point where it's just download this app, and that's it?

668
00:43:07.460 --> 00:43:11.240
And so we've been working on that problem for many years now.

669
00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:15.080
I think that there's still many problems to solve ahead.

670
00:43:16.625 --> 00:43:19.125
People shouldn't be able to lose their money.

671
00:43:19.505 --> 00:43:20.965
Right now, like, if you

672
00:43:21.345 --> 00:43:25.820
forget a password or or or a code that you wrote in a paper, then your money is

673
00:43:26.120 --> 00:43:35.555
gone. And and you will not accept that from a bank. Like, if you go to an ATM and you you forget the PIN, and you go to, I don't know, the the bank teller,

674
00:43:36.255 --> 00:43:37.715
and they they they say,

675
00:43:38.175 --> 00:43:41.910
not your keys, not your man not your PIN, not your money. You will kill

676
00:43:42.290 --> 00:43:48.150
them. So we need a way to to get all these cool properties of money, but at the same time,

677
00:43:49.335 --> 00:43:51.195
make it so that people just

678
00:43:51.495 --> 00:43:55.035
no matter what they do, they can lose the money. That it's super,

679
00:43:55.655 --> 00:43:57.915
easy to use. I don't have to understand

680
00:43:58.460 --> 00:44:00.160
all the technology to use it.

681
00:44:01.420 --> 00:44:03.040
But it's been quite challenging.

682
00:44:03.820 --> 00:44:04.720
I think that

683
00:44:05.020 --> 00:44:08.285
when we started with Moon, most wallets were mostly

684
00:44:09.724 --> 00:44:11.265
a reflection of the protocol.

685
00:44:12.365 --> 00:44:19.590
And so what what we try to do is is tackle it, go from the other way around, try to understand what's the problem for the user,

686
00:44:20.050 --> 00:44:24.470
and and then figure out, well, how close can we get with the technology?

687
00:44:25.545 --> 00:44:30.445
Rather than saying saying, like, oh, Bitcoin can do all this stuff. Let's put them all inside,

688
00:44:31.145 --> 00:44:33.725
an interface and and and let people do everything.

689
00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:35.460
So I think that there's

690
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:42.180
different wallets with different trade offs for different audiences, and and that's the beauty of Bitcoin.

691
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:43.875
You can have

692
00:44:44.275 --> 00:44:45.015
many different,

693
00:44:45.555 --> 00:44:51.415
products competing in an open market, and and you have zero lock in. Like, you can move

694
00:44:51.770 --> 00:44:55.390
with 3 clicks. You can move your money from one wallet to the other.

695
00:44:57.370 --> 00:44:58.190
Most wallets

696
00:44:58.570 --> 00:44:59.310
work globally.

697
00:45:00.164 --> 00:45:03.385
So they are available available to everyone everywhere.

698
00:45:05.365 --> 00:45:07.860
And, yeah, we try to to work on that.

699
00:45:08.500 --> 00:45:09.640
We're trying to to

700
00:45:10.180 --> 00:45:10.680
include

701
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:14.280
a lot of people that maybe get left behind.

702
00:45:14.740 --> 00:45:16.360
Bitcoin started as as

703
00:45:16.815 --> 00:45:18.355
an English speaking phenomenon,

704
00:45:19.375 --> 00:45:25.579
and most of the content is in English. And most wallets are only in English, and and most protocols

705
00:45:26.200 --> 00:45:27.260
even have,

706
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:31.020
error codes and that kind of stuff that

707
00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:32.460
are only in English.

708
00:45:32.875 --> 00:45:36.075
And so getting to the point where, this access

709
00:45:37.515 --> 00:45:39.215
like, the the way that people

710
00:45:39.595 --> 00:45:44.980
back up wallets today is only for English speakers. Is, like, write down English words. Write

711
00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:59.400
write down something English words. As foundational as well. Exactly. Exactly. And so it's we're trying to to go back a little bit there and see what's the essence of the problem and how can we apply it in a in a language neutral way.

712
00:46:00.599 --> 00:46:02.059
And at the same time, it's

713
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:04.539
Bitcoin is is super complex.

714
00:46:04.839 --> 00:46:07.099
It it can be a lot for newcomers.

715
00:46:07.654 --> 00:46:12.875
So having someone that you can speak to in the same language that you speak is super important.

716
00:46:13.734 --> 00:46:16.900
And so we've seen a lot of, this was something,

717
00:46:17.359 --> 00:46:19.300
super important in El Salvador.

718
00:46:20.319 --> 00:46:20.819
I

719
00:46:22.400 --> 00:46:25.300
think it was the first time that we saw a lot of

720
00:46:26.214 --> 00:46:28.315
adoption growing quicker than education.

721
00:46:28.935 --> 00:46:39.760
Because El Salvador had this legal tender law. Right? So Bitcoin Bitcoin is now an accepted currency everywhere in El Salvador. Yeah. And and there's a lot of people people just came into Bitcoin. From one day to the other.

722
00:46:40.060 --> 00:46:42.960
And some people wanted to, some others didn't.

723
00:46:43.980 --> 00:46:44.480
But

724
00:46:45.345 --> 00:46:49.125
everyone was exposed to this technology, and what they had mostly was questions.

725
00:46:49.665 --> 00:46:50.645
And so having,

726
00:46:51.105 --> 00:46:55.390
like, a support channel or someone that you can talk to inside the wallets,

727
00:46:55.850 --> 00:47:00.190
in a language that you understand that can answer some basic things about

728
00:47:00.575 --> 00:47:04.515
how does this work? How how do I do to not lose my money?

729
00:47:04.975 --> 00:47:05.475
And,

730
00:47:06.655 --> 00:47:08.995
make them at ease and and help them

731
00:47:09.370 --> 00:47:16.590
go at their own pace and understand at their own pace, what Bitcoin is and and what problems it solves. I think it's super important.

732
00:47:18.135 --> 00:47:19.755
So yeah. And there's

733
00:47:20.135 --> 00:47:21.035
many challenges,

734
00:47:21.575 --> 00:47:23.995
to to taking Bitcoin globally,

735
00:47:25.609 --> 00:47:26.490
But I think that,

736
00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:29.290
Bitcoiners are are super open to this, and,

737
00:47:30.730 --> 00:47:33.630
they are willing, to to to work on these problems.

738
00:47:34.735 --> 00:47:37.315
We just have to be careful with some biases.

739
00:47:38.735 --> 00:47:39.875
What is your biggest

740
00:47:40.335 --> 00:47:43.715
pain point that you felt while you're building while you built Moon?

741
00:47:45.850 --> 00:47:47.550
Yeah. I I think that

742
00:47:49.210 --> 00:47:49.710
well,

743
00:47:50.010 --> 00:47:51.325
there weren't many pain points.

744
00:47:52.125 --> 00:47:53.505
But I I think that,

745
00:47:54.204 --> 00:47:56.285
one of the most challenging things,

746
00:47:56.605 --> 00:47:57.984
was having multiple

747
00:47:58.660 --> 00:48:06.760
audiences with different levels of understanding and balancing that. Like, you you have to make a product that at the same time works for someone

748
00:48:07.085 --> 00:48:10.305
that knows a lot about the technology and has really high expectations

749
00:48:11.244 --> 00:48:16.625
about how it should work and how it should look like even, what protocols you should be using.

750
00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:23.780
They have opinions about that. And at the same time, you have to cater to an audience that doesn't understand

751
00:48:24.080 --> 00:48:26.820
any anything about how the technology works.

752
00:48:27.475 --> 00:48:29.015
And you have to be able to

753
00:48:29.555 --> 00:48:34.695
to let them build mental models about how it works, and let them relate it to

754
00:48:35.210 --> 00:48:38.269
stuff that they already know, like an email or a password.

755
00:48:40.250 --> 00:48:43.069
And so that that was something that took us

756
00:48:43.725 --> 00:48:46.705
many years to understand how to navigate and how to,

757
00:48:47.645 --> 00:48:52.385
make a product that make a product that works for many audiences at the same time.

758
00:48:54.430 --> 00:48:55.490
Then there's always

759
00:48:55.790 --> 00:48:57.170
a lot of technical challenges,

760
00:48:57.710 --> 00:48:59.170
when you want to,

761
00:49:01.035 --> 00:49:06.255
when you start with a problem rather than with the technology or the solution and you you want to,

762
00:49:07.355 --> 00:49:09.215
have a very specific UX,

763
00:49:10.300 --> 00:49:12.720
you have to take the technology to its limits.

764
00:49:13.020 --> 00:49:18.880
And and so, you're dealing with a lot of problems that might not have been explored before,

765
00:49:19.515 --> 00:49:20.335
or or that,

766
00:49:21.195 --> 00:49:25.135
maybe it falls in a place where no one has given it much thought yet.

767
00:49:26.715 --> 00:49:28.175
So so that's

768
00:49:29.790 --> 00:49:31.010
an interesting challenge.

769
00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:32.050
But,

770
00:49:32.830 --> 00:49:36.770
yeah, it's it's super interesting to work on that and and see how we could,

771
00:49:37.355 --> 00:49:43.455
take Bitcoin to its limits and and and also inspire us into how we could extend Bitcoin,

772
00:49:44.290 --> 00:49:46.150
in in order to to gain new functionality

773
00:49:46.450 --> 00:49:49.430
and and those kind of things. The El Salvador

774
00:49:50.130 --> 00:49:50.630
situation

775
00:49:51.010 --> 00:49:52.869
is very interesting, I think,

776
00:49:53.325 --> 00:49:59.665
and could be very interesting from specifically as a someone from Latin American country. Yeah. Do you

777
00:50:00.045 --> 00:50:01.165
do you see any

778
00:50:01.980 --> 00:50:10.480
did you learn anything from from El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as a national currency that you think could apply to maybe a potential situation in Argentina?

779
00:50:11.295 --> 00:50:11.795
Definitely.

780
00:50:12.415 --> 00:50:12.735
Yeah.

781
00:50:13.695 --> 00:50:15.475
We have many learnings from

782
00:50:16.815 --> 00:50:17.875
onboarding users,

783
00:50:18.415 --> 00:50:20.790
and onboarding many users at once

784
00:50:21.190 --> 00:50:22.650
into into Moon.

785
00:50:23.910 --> 00:50:24.890
One of the things

786
00:50:25.510 --> 00:50:27.290
that we, we weren't

787
00:50:27.670 --> 00:50:28.170
prepared,

788
00:50:28.630 --> 00:50:29.130
for,

789
00:50:29.455 --> 00:50:29.615
like

790
00:50:31.375 --> 00:50:42.410
we all we always had the advantage of either onboarding people that already know about Bitcoin Right. Or that have someone next to them telling them about Bitcoin. Easier if you have a friend. Yeah. Exactly.

791
00:50:42.710 --> 00:50:58.440
If you know someone that that knows about Bitcoin and you ask them, they will speak to you for 3 hours straight and tell you all the ins and outs of Bitcoin and how it works and what problems it solves, which is great. It's I think it's the best way to get into Bitcoin.

792
00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:00.920
But if you don't have that, then then

793
00:51:01.700 --> 00:51:06.875
there is many things that you can't can't assume that, the person that's,

794
00:51:07.735 --> 00:51:09.540
getting onboarded to the world knows.

795
00:51:10.020 --> 00:51:12.840
And so we were for example, when you go

796
00:51:13.140 --> 00:51:16.680
you go to the receipt screen in Moon, you you you go to receive Bitcoins.

797
00:51:17.095 --> 00:51:19.595
We had 2 tabs that that make you,

798
00:51:21.175 --> 00:51:21.915
make you,

799
00:51:23.335 --> 00:51:29.470
you have to make a decision on which protocol you're going to use. Either you use traditional Bitcoin or Lightning.

800
00:51:30.170 --> 00:51:31.690
And we have a lot of people,

801
00:51:32.010 --> 00:51:38.335
that didn't know what Lightning was and and saying, like, what's this other coin? Like, you have bitcoin and lightning.

802
00:51:39.275 --> 00:51:40.974
And so we it started,

803
00:51:41.275 --> 00:51:44.575
pushing us in in in ways that we haven't faced with before,

804
00:51:45.240 --> 00:51:52.540
which is super interesting, and and I think it will be useful everywhere to to get those work on those problems and and make it much more clear

805
00:51:53.000 --> 00:51:53.660
to users.

806
00:51:55.315 --> 00:51:57.555
Then we had the,

807
00:51:57.875 --> 00:52:00.694
many users that didn't speak English,

808
00:52:01.050 --> 00:52:02.510
and we started seeing

809
00:52:02.810 --> 00:52:03.630
more of these

810
00:52:04.650 --> 00:52:06.030
multi language prompts.

811
00:52:07.290 --> 00:52:08.430
There are new protocols,

812
00:52:09.315 --> 00:52:11.575
right now for lining making lightning payments,

813
00:52:12.835 --> 00:52:13.335
that

814
00:52:13.875 --> 00:52:15.734
are designed in a way where

815
00:52:16.600 --> 00:52:17.880
if you get an error,

816
00:52:18.280 --> 00:52:18.940
if the,

817
00:52:19.720 --> 00:52:23.000
say you want to make a payment to sites online,

818
00:52:23.320 --> 00:52:26.425
which implements this protocol, It's called Allen URL.

819
00:52:26.805 --> 00:52:27.545
The developer,

820
00:52:28.645 --> 00:52:29.145
writes

821
00:52:29.525 --> 00:52:32.105
the error code that it's going to be shown to the user.

822
00:52:32.510 --> 00:52:33.890
But they are mostly,

823
00:52:34.270 --> 00:52:36.050
writing these things in English.

824
00:52:36.590 --> 00:52:43.725
And so we have a a really tough challenge of of how do we deal with that for people that don't speak,

825
00:52:44.585 --> 00:52:45.165
in English.

826
00:52:46.505 --> 00:52:47.725
Or they speak Spanish.

827
00:52:48.025 --> 00:52:53.410
Exactly. Payment fails, and then the error is in English, and they have no idea what the hell is going on. Exactly. Exactly.

828
00:52:54.030 --> 00:52:55.730
So that's that's a tough challenge,

829
00:52:56.750 --> 00:52:59.245
that no one is, speaking about.

830
00:53:00.285 --> 00:53:01.585
And another thing that,

831
00:53:02.045 --> 00:53:04.145
when you go fully global, like, truly,

832
00:53:04.525 --> 00:53:05.265
fully global,

833
00:53:06.445 --> 00:53:07.665
you're dealing in

834
00:53:08.180 --> 00:53:10.119
sometimes in countries like Argentina,

835
00:53:11.540 --> 00:53:14.359
that don't have a clear exchange rate.

836
00:53:15.115 --> 00:53:19.375
And so, this happens in Venezuela, in Cuba, in Lebanon,

837
00:53:20.555 --> 00:53:22.015
in India right now.

838
00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:32.160
And so there's a lot of stuff that goes into saying how much a a Bitcoin is or a dollar is in those countries.

839
00:53:33.445 --> 00:53:34.825
How do you handle that?

840
00:53:36.245 --> 00:53:37.225
We try to,

841
00:53:38.325 --> 00:53:39.145
ask locals,

842
00:53:39.765 --> 00:53:46.940
how do they solve it for them, what sites they use, and and we try to to have as many source of

843
00:53:47.319 --> 00:53:48.460
truth as possible

844
00:53:49.795 --> 00:53:50.295
and

845
00:53:50.674 --> 00:53:55.015
and and try to, like, average it out. And to be clear, Moon doesn't

846
00:53:55.795 --> 00:53:57.734
Moon with 2 u's does not hold,

847
00:53:59.390 --> 00:54:05.410
it doesn't hold your local currency. It only holds Bitcoin Yeah. But it it'll show the equivalent amount. It'll show how much that

848
00:54:05.765 --> 00:54:09.545
Exactly. Because when when people want to make a payment, they usually think,

849
00:54:10.165 --> 00:54:13.625
about the the the unit of account, the unit that they use to

850
00:54:14.490 --> 00:54:14.990
express

851
00:54:15.369 --> 00:54:17.150
how much money they want to send,

852
00:54:17.849 --> 00:54:18.910
is usually denominated

853
00:54:19.930 --> 00:54:21.470
either in their local currency

854
00:54:22.424 --> 00:54:24.045
or in some reserve currency.

855
00:54:24.664 --> 00:54:25.805
So it's really important

856
00:54:26.265 --> 00:54:28.204
that the wallet can make this conversion

857
00:54:28.984 --> 00:54:29.484
automatically.

858
00:54:30.890 --> 00:54:36.510
And and it looks like a super small thing to do, but it's quite challenging to do at scale,

859
00:54:37.050 --> 00:54:38.430
especially in some countries.

860
00:54:40.185 --> 00:54:42.445
And and, yeah, there there there's all these

861
00:54:42.905 --> 00:54:43.405
small

862
00:54:43.705 --> 00:54:46.925
points of friction that you find out when you onboard

863
00:54:47.225 --> 00:54:49.150
different users and new users.

864
00:54:50.569 --> 00:54:53.710
So we're learning we're learning a lot all of the time.

865
00:54:54.970 --> 00:54:55.609
And I guess,

866
00:54:56.329 --> 00:54:59.135
El Salvador was a really big stress test.

867
00:54:59.835 --> 00:55:01.935
Many people using it at the same time.

868
00:55:02.555 --> 00:55:07.615
I I think it was a a really big success case for for the Lightning Network especially.

869
00:55:08.940 --> 00:55:13.760
I I'm not aware of any other point in time where it was used at such scale

870
00:55:14.140 --> 00:55:15.039
by unexperienced

871
00:55:15.339 --> 00:55:15.839
users

872
00:55:16.220 --> 00:55:16.720
successfully.

873
00:55:18.275 --> 00:55:18.775
So

874
00:55:19.315 --> 00:55:20.214
I think in

875
00:55:20.515 --> 00:55:22.694
in that sense it went pretty well.

876
00:55:22.994 --> 00:55:31.540
But there's always stuff to learn and to improve and and work to be done to make it better for the next El Salvador. You would say El Salvador, the rollout in El Salvador

877
00:55:32.160 --> 00:55:34.635
for the most part was a massive success.

878
00:55:35.175 --> 00:55:36.235
I think so. Yeah.

879
00:55:36.535 --> 00:55:40.555
Depend depending on what layer you look at it, like, technologically,

880
00:55:40.935 --> 00:55:42.470
I think it went pretty well.

881
00:55:42.869 --> 00:55:47.369
Socially, I don't think so. Right. I think there were many problems socially.

882
00:55:47.750 --> 00:55:51.450
Like, Bitcoin is usually a grassroots movement. It goes from the

883
00:55:51.945 --> 00:55:52.925
from the people.

884
00:55:54.025 --> 00:55:57.805
And in El Salvador, it went the other way around, like Not really.

885
00:55:58.185 --> 00:56:01.005
I mean, I like to think of it as a grassroots movement

886
00:56:02.040 --> 00:56:02.540
that

887
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:08.220
grew so big that the government couldn't ignore it and then they chose to adopt it. Sure.

888
00:56:08.600 --> 00:56:11.994
Right? Because you had that Bitcoin Visa. It definitely started, like, aggressive move.

889
00:56:12.535 --> 00:56:13.035
Yeah.

890
00:56:13.335 --> 00:56:18.795
But, many people found themselves with a lot of questions and and thinking that they were,

891
00:56:20.180 --> 00:56:20.680
forced

892
00:56:20.980 --> 00:56:23.079
to deal with Bitcoin and accept Bitcoin,

893
00:56:23.700 --> 00:56:24.200
when

894
00:56:25.059 --> 00:56:28.279
they didn't even know what it was, and they were really scared.

895
00:56:28.684 --> 00:56:33.184
And I think that it could have been damn good sir with much more education,

896
00:56:33.484 --> 00:56:34.865
with with much more,

897
00:56:35.805 --> 00:56:36.305
clarity

898
00:56:36.684 --> 00:56:37.184
around

899
00:56:37.580 --> 00:56:41.520
what would be expected of merchants, say, like small merchants.

900
00:56:42.140 --> 00:56:43.280
For for a big merchant,

901
00:56:43.580 --> 00:56:45.920
they can adapt and and and work with it.

902
00:56:47.125 --> 00:56:48.265
So I think that

903
00:56:50.085 --> 00:56:50.585
maybe,

904
00:56:52.005 --> 00:56:56.740
doing it a little bit more gradually with more education would have been better. But from your perspective,

905
00:56:57.860 --> 00:57:00.119
perspective, Moon Yep. Your project

906
00:57:01.300 --> 00:57:05.405
was successful in Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. And and we even had, like,

907
00:57:05.885 --> 00:57:08.385
there's an official wallet, in El Salvador,

908
00:57:08.845 --> 00:57:09.345
that's,

909
00:57:11.165 --> 00:57:14.945
maintained by the government, and it's actually, like, a Bitcoin bank.

910
00:57:16.510 --> 00:57:17.010
And

911
00:57:17.630 --> 00:57:22.369
we had especially, like, really hyper penetration with the people that were opposed to the government

912
00:57:22.825 --> 00:57:23.805
because they they,

913
00:57:24.665 --> 00:57:26.904
with with all this new law,

914
00:57:27.305 --> 00:57:28.445
they were they,

915
00:57:29.305 --> 00:57:32.800
got down in Bitcoin and learned a lot and and understood

916
00:57:33.100 --> 00:57:43.405
the reasons why Bitcoin really existed. And and as the government was freezing their bank accounts, they were using bitcoin to bypass the government, so I guess in a way, it was,

917
00:57:44.425 --> 00:57:49.100
a good ending and and these people got to learn about a tool that can help them

918
00:57:49.720 --> 00:57:50.220
fight

919
00:57:50.600 --> 00:57:52.540
against the government when they need to.

920
00:57:53.160 --> 00:57:54.940
Protect themselves, not fight.

921
00:57:57.035 --> 00:57:57.435
But,

922
00:57:57.915 --> 00:57:59.215
yeah, I think that,

923
00:58:01.435 --> 00:58:05.460
there's still a lot of work that's needed with lining on reliability.

924
00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:15.175
Like, many payments fail. So we we should and it's a cross cutting problem. It touches the protocol. It touches the ecosystem. It touches

925
00:58:15.555 --> 00:58:18.615
the exchanges that are integrating Lightning Network, the wallets.

926
00:58:19.234 --> 00:58:19.895
And so,

927
00:58:20.520 --> 00:58:28.540
a lot more work there is needed, but other than that, I'd say it was a resounding success. On the topic of language confusion Yep.

928
00:58:29.744 --> 00:58:34.484
What was the thought process about naming your app Moon spelled incorrectly in English?

929
00:58:35.025 --> 00:58:35.525
Yeah.

930
00:58:37.200 --> 00:58:37.700
I'm

931
00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:40.660
I'm really a fan of of things that have

932
00:58:41.040 --> 00:58:42.900
multiple meanings at the same time.

933
00:58:43.200 --> 00:58:44.975
And and so there was

934
00:58:45.775 --> 00:58:50.195
this phrase in in the Bitcoin community of, to the moon, early on.

935
00:58:50.735 --> 00:58:53.670
So that was one inspiration for it. And

936
00:58:54.210 --> 00:58:55.830
and it turns out that there's

937
00:58:57.490 --> 00:58:58.790
a Star Wars race,

938
00:58:59.570 --> 00:59:01.285
that that they're called the moons,

939
00:59:01.765 --> 00:59:02.505
and they are

940
00:59:03.125 --> 00:59:05.704
the creators and the founders of the intergalactic

941
00:59:06.005 --> 00:59:12.130
banking plan. The the and the deal they they are really good at math and finance and and,

942
00:59:12.630 --> 00:59:13.130
when

943
00:59:13.750 --> 00:59:16.230
when we realized about about that,

944
00:59:16.550 --> 00:59:18.650
it was like this is a perfect name

945
00:59:19.835 --> 00:59:22.895
and and and I think that, like, thinking about,

946
00:59:23.355 --> 00:59:24.575
like, you can think,

947
00:59:25.595 --> 00:59:27.055
around Bitcoin, like,

948
00:59:27.920 --> 00:59:29.380
building an intergalactic,

949
00:59:30.720 --> 00:59:32.500
money system. Like, Bitcoin

950
00:59:32.880 --> 00:59:38.885
might even work outside of planet Earth. But they spelled with 2 u's in there? Yeah. They're spelled with 2 u's.

951
00:59:39.185 --> 00:59:40.565
So do you have any regrets

952
00:59:41.185 --> 00:59:42.565
spelling it that way?

953
00:59:43.460 --> 00:59:44.260
I think it's,

954
00:59:45.140 --> 00:59:46.680
it it became a meme.

955
00:59:47.380 --> 00:59:50.680
It became a meme because I had to say it every week on my podcast. Exactly.

956
00:59:51.355 --> 00:59:55.055
Yeah. I Moon with 2 u's. Yeah. Moon with 2 u's.

957
00:59:56.315 --> 00:59:59.695
I think in retrospect, it might not have been the best name,

958
01:00:01.300 --> 01:00:01.800
but,

959
01:00:03.140 --> 01:00:06.840
yeah. Well, thank you for answering the single most important question for me today.

960
01:00:08.474 --> 01:00:09.775
So we're talking about Argentinians

961
01:00:10.315 --> 01:00:11.295
accepting Bitcoin,

962
01:00:11.835 --> 01:00:12.654
using Bitcoin.

963
01:00:13.115 --> 01:00:17.080
Do you have any idea of of how many Argentinians are using Bitcoin right now?

964
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:19.180
I don't know, really.

965
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:21.240
I think that, there's

966
01:00:22.760 --> 01:00:24.460
in Argentina, there there is

967
01:00:25.345 --> 01:00:26.964
a lot of people using crypto.

968
01:00:27.984 --> 01:00:32.404
I I think I've seen recent statistics that they're around, like, 30%

969
01:00:33.250 --> 01:00:34.770
penetration. But you're you're including

970
01:00:35.330 --> 01:00:37.910
stable coins. That's that's stable coins, Ethereum,

971
01:00:38.450 --> 01:00:38.950
and

972
01:00:40.575 --> 01:00:41.075
Bitcoin.

973
01:00:42.095 --> 01:00:43.474
There was, yeah.

974
01:00:43.775 --> 01:00:46.174
Do you think Bitcoin is the most popular down there? Or

975
01:00:47.135 --> 01:00:54.180
I think stable coins are the most popular because if all this idea with the US dollar When we say stable coins, we mean

976
01:00:54.560 --> 01:00:59.684
tokens that are pegged to US dollar value that require trust in the company. Yeah.

977
01:01:00.704 --> 01:01:01.525
They they are,

978
01:01:02.464 --> 01:01:15.380
tokens that they're one to one with the dollar. So in in a way, you can think of them as exchangeable with the dollar. There are multiple types of them. There are some of them that you trust a third party entity like a company

979
01:01:15.734 --> 01:01:18.395
that's holding the same Yeah. A bank that's holding,

980
01:01:19.015 --> 01:01:20.395
a similar amount of dollars.

981
01:01:21.095 --> 01:01:22.395
That's, say, Tether.

982
01:01:22.950 --> 01:01:26.250
There's a lot of penetration of Tether, in Argentina.

983
01:01:26.790 --> 01:01:27.609
There's also,

984
01:01:29.030 --> 01:01:31.430
some people using Dai, which is an agor

985
01:01:31.830 --> 01:01:32.330
algorithmic

986
01:01:32.704 --> 01:01:33.525
stable coin.

987
01:01:33.984 --> 01:01:36.244
I won't go into the details, but there's

988
01:01:36.625 --> 01:01:39.204
it works in another and more complex way,

989
01:01:40.065 --> 01:01:43.430
and and tries to do away with the trust in a third party.

990
01:01:43.810 --> 01:01:50.230
But You add different trust instead. Exactly. You have different risks. Like, you you have the thing getting in the

991
01:01:50.655 --> 01:01:51.155
like,

992
01:01:52.175 --> 01:01:57.235
the the layers of risks that you are dealing with. So would you say that, like, a Argentinian

993
01:01:58.015 --> 01:01:58.915
at the core,

994
01:02:00.040 --> 01:02:13.425
the highest demand is dollars. They want US dollars. They want some kind of exposure to US dollars, and they're willing to take some risks Yeah. Trust wise to to have that exposure to dollars. I'd say that that definitely. So

995
01:02:14.430 --> 01:02:16.609
in I'd say that in Argentina,

996
01:02:17.069 --> 01:02:22.369
like, people relate to Bitcoin and crypto more in general in 2 different ways.

997
01:02:23.105 --> 01:02:24.885
Some people take it as like

998
01:02:25.345 --> 01:02:26.725
as a savings technology.

999
01:02:27.025 --> 01:02:29.605
And some people take it as an investment technology.

1000
01:02:30.650 --> 01:02:31.130
And there

1001
01:02:32.010 --> 01:02:36.990
there's a a really interesting local Bitcoin community that that's mostly for for

1002
01:02:37.825 --> 01:02:39.525
not either as a savings,

1003
01:02:39.905 --> 01:02:45.525
mechanism or investment mechanism, but for what it means and as a tool for freedom.

1004
01:02:47.500 --> 01:02:48.240
And so

1005
01:02:49.100 --> 01:02:51.200
I'd say that there's a little bit of

1006
01:02:52.060 --> 01:02:53.500
of every use case,

1007
01:02:53.820 --> 01:02:55.474
down there. The user

1008
01:02:55.775 --> 01:02:59.635
is mostly mostly a savings technology. So stable coins,

1009
01:03:02.095 --> 01:03:03.635
are a great fit there.

1010
01:03:04.650 --> 01:03:06.030
But then, bitcoin,

1011
01:03:06.890 --> 01:03:13.470
is a super great fit, either for the people that are are in it for the freedom, and the the

1012
01:03:14.494 --> 01:03:17.315
social change that Bitcoin brings and means,

1013
01:03:18.015 --> 01:03:21.555
and and for the people that are trying to to make an investment.

1014
01:03:22.780 --> 01:03:26.080
And that's that's a really interesting audience because that's,

1015
01:03:26.780 --> 01:03:30.880
how you start relating with Bitcoin and start learning more about it, and

1016
01:03:31.944 --> 01:03:36.505
you might ask the question, well, why is this going up? Why is this,

1017
01:03:36.905 --> 01:03:42.250
the price of Bitcoin going up? And then you start falling through all these other questions and questioning,

1018
01:03:43.270 --> 01:03:46.650
your beliefs. So I think it's a it's a really good path.

1019
01:03:48.515 --> 01:03:50.855
But, yeah, there there there's a bit of everything.

1020
01:03:51.474 --> 01:04:02.060
One of the cool things about Bitcoin is is that it's very much a grassroots movement, you know, people talk about open source code but ultimately people need to run the code, they need to build the code, support the code. Yep. And

1021
01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:03.500
do do you see

1022
01:04:04.015 --> 01:04:05.154
the Bitcoin community

1023
01:04:05.454 --> 01:04:06.994
in Argentina growing

1024
01:04:07.694 --> 01:04:12.595
strongly and do you see this a circular economy developing this idea of, you know, merchants

1025
01:04:12.920 --> 01:04:19.579
accepting Bitcoin and then spending Bitcoin? Definitely. And and Bitcoin adoption is growing quite a bit. You can

1026
01:04:20.575 --> 01:04:24.195
I I think you can live in in Bitcoin today without ATMs,

1027
01:04:25.615 --> 01:04:27.315
and without selling your Bitcoin?

1028
01:04:27.695 --> 01:04:28.195
There's,

1029
01:04:28.980 --> 01:04:31.400
at least in in the biggest cities,

1030
01:04:32.099 --> 01:04:32.599
there's,

1031
01:04:33.540 --> 01:04:44.835
in the last year or so, adoption grew quite a lot. You can pay with lightning network in many places. You can eat, you can go to the gym, you can do many things,

1032
01:04:45.475 --> 01:04:46.855
paying with lightning network,

1033
01:04:47.220 --> 01:04:48.119
which is awesome.

1034
01:04:49.780 --> 01:04:50.280
And,

1035
01:04:51.300 --> 01:04:52.359
yeah, I think

1036
01:04:53.300 --> 01:04:56.595
that especially like in the last month or so, a lot of people

1037
01:04:56.994 --> 01:05:01.974
there was like this big crisis with Terra which was a stable coin and a lot of people

1038
01:05:02.355 --> 01:05:03.555
lost a lot of money,

1039
01:05:03.875 --> 01:05:07.030
because they were relying on a system that didn't work.

1040
01:05:07.890 --> 01:05:08.390
And

1041
01:05:09.410 --> 01:05:20.805
it it it made them ask the right questions. I mean, it made them understand, like, I think that there's we're seeing a a huge comeback to Bitcoin. A lot of people are finally understanding why

1042
01:05:21.310 --> 01:05:26.610
Bitcoiners were saying what they were saying and why you have to be careful with these systems

1043
01:05:27.070 --> 01:05:28.530
and why it should be sound.

1044
01:05:30.195 --> 01:05:32.295
So I think that we'll see,

1045
01:05:33.474 --> 01:05:41.310
much the rate of adoption grow in the next year or so. But you can live you can live in a major Argentinian city

1046
01:05:41.610 --> 01:05:47.235
and earn Bitcoin and spend Bitcoin and never touch dollars or pesos. Yeah. Definitely. Period. Yeah. You can. Either

1047
01:05:47.615 --> 01:05:50.435
the Bitcoin futures there yeah so Dario

1048
01:05:51.695 --> 01:05:53.930
at its core what does freedom mean to you

1049
01:05:59.530 --> 01:06:00.589
I think that

1050
01:06:03.025 --> 01:06:03.765
it's it's

1051
01:06:04.705 --> 01:06:05.365
the right

1052
01:06:05.665 --> 01:06:07.045
to have your own opinions,

1053
01:06:07.345 --> 01:06:08.565
to express them,

1054
01:06:08.865 --> 01:06:09.605
to to

1055
01:06:10.720 --> 01:06:17.300
behave in line with them. As long as you don't hurt anyone else and and you respect others freedom, like,

1056
01:06:19.355 --> 01:06:20.575
I think that that's

1057
01:06:21.995 --> 01:06:22.495
yeah.

1058
01:06:26.470 --> 01:06:27.990
It's tough to define freedom.

1059
01:06:30.310 --> 01:06:34.570
I think that you shouldn't, like, in the modern world, you shouldn't be restricted

1060
01:06:34.875 --> 01:06:40.174
about the decisions to take you take about your life and how you relate to others.

1061
01:06:41.355 --> 01:06:43.454
So I think that's in the end,

1062
01:06:44.780 --> 01:06:46.480
that's that's the core of it,

1063
01:06:47.420 --> 01:06:48.240
trying to

1064
01:06:48.860 --> 01:06:50.320
share your your beliefs

1065
01:06:51.100 --> 01:06:51.600
freely.

1066
01:06:51.980 --> 01:06:52.480
And

1067
01:06:54.285 --> 01:06:55.265
I think that

1068
01:06:57.405 --> 01:06:58.704
in order to do that,

1069
01:06:59.085 --> 01:07:00.305
you need a lot of,

1070
01:07:01.244 --> 01:07:07.300
you need tools that allow you to to do this. You you need some rights that are usually

1071
01:07:07.760 --> 01:07:08.740
hard to to

1072
01:07:09.200 --> 01:07:10.900
maintain in different environments,

1073
01:07:13.115 --> 01:07:13.615
but,

1074
01:07:15.275 --> 01:07:16.255
I'd say that

1075
01:07:19.170 --> 01:07:26.710
I think that that we are in a point of history where we have the most freedom than we we've ever had as a humanity.

1076
01:07:27.984 --> 01:07:28.484
So

1077
01:07:28.865 --> 01:07:29.585
I think that,

1078
01:07:31.585 --> 01:07:34.005
there are a lot of people rooting for freedom,

1079
01:07:34.305 --> 01:07:34.805
and

1080
01:07:36.720 --> 01:07:37.540
and it's

1081
01:07:40.160 --> 01:07:42.980
more and more of the world right now is is,

1082
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:45.380
trying to at least

1083
01:07:46.365 --> 01:07:46.865
have

1084
01:07:47.245 --> 01:07:50.465
the the ideas of respecting these personal freedoms,

1085
01:07:52.205 --> 01:07:53.345
so I'm optimistic

1086
01:07:53.725 --> 01:07:54.865
about the future.

1087
01:07:55.530 --> 01:07:57.470
I think we're going in the right direction.

1088
01:07:57.849 --> 01:08:00.030
There's still a lot of work to be done.

1089
01:08:01.050 --> 01:08:02.510
But but yeah,

1090
01:08:03.655 --> 01:08:04.795
Not having anyone,

1091
01:08:05.255 --> 01:08:07.595
tell you what you should do in the end,

1092
01:08:07.895 --> 01:08:10.920
is what freedom is and what we should strive for.

1093
01:08:12.040 --> 01:08:15.099
Dario, it's been a pleasure. I appreciate you. Thank you.