CD134: SELF HOSTING, START9, AND START OS WITH MATT HILL, COFOUNDER

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Created: 5/17/2024 7:23:49 PM
Duration: 6767.723
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For

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inflation and interest rates. More worried about it. I mean, you know, we've had very big fiscal deficits,

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and, you know, I think the underlying inflation may not go away the way people expect it to. And I I look at the future like a lot of things we look at are kind of inflationary.

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The green economy,

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the remilitarization of the world, the infrastructure requirements,

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the restructuring of trade, fiscal deficits. So I think there are a lot of inflationary forces in front of us that, you know, may keep it a little bit higher than people expect. The surprise would be rates are higher, inflation is a little bit higher,

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and maybe that'll slow growth. And and and obviously geopolitics

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is a whole different issue. That that can that could be determinative in what our economy does next year, and we're just we're just not gonna know. But so does that mean you think it's 5050 whether the Fed cuts or hikes

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at at, you know, next time around, the next move? I really don't pay that much attention to that. The Fed will have to follow the the data, and I don't know what the data's gonna say, but they, I think, you know, they are doing the right to be patient right now, see see what's gonna happen. They may not know for a couple of months. But no big correction. I mean, if you don't pay, you know, that much attention to it, it means you're not worried about anything. No. I'm worried. I just said stocks are very high. I think the chance of inflation staying higher or rates going up are higher than other people think. So

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I think the chance my view is whatever the world is pricing it for a soft landing Yeah. I think it's probably half that. I think the chance of something going wrong is higher than people think. In the US? But but we Or globally?

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Well, I'd say in the US, but also that could affect globally. Yeah. And and so that what does that mean for markets?

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It'd be down,

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and credit spreads would gap gap out. So why is the market not pricing that in?

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A lot of happy talk.

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Happy Bitcoin

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Friday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch, the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

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discussion.

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That intro clip,

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was Bloomberg,

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talking to Jamie Dimon, arguably one of the world's most powerful bankers,

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and, he's not he's not too optimistic on the the macroeconomic

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picture.

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That is not what we'll be talking about today.

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I have a great guest lined up. It's, I believe, his second time on the show.

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Last time was a a long time ago. We have Matt Hill here,

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cofounder of Start 9,

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a business focused on self hosting

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and and leaving leaving the cloud servers behind and and and hosting everything yourself. How's it going, Matt?

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Good, Matt. Thanks for having me on

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again.

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Oh, always a pleasure.

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Well, last time, there's a few of us. Right? We had a There was a node round table. That's right.

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And, I mean, you've actually made really big moves since then. Yes. But I think,

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before we get there, let's,

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you know, I think with the current regulatory environment where the world's at right now,

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a lot of people have realized,

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that might not have realized earlier. There were some of us that realized the importance, but,

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the importance of self hosting. And your company is been strictly focused on that.

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So, I mean, what is start 9?

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And and what are you guys building over there?

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Well, we spend a lot of time,

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working on StartOS,

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which is

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a new kind of operating system that makes it easy for

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a nontechnical person to

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own and operate a personal server,

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which has traditionally been a very difficult thing

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for someone to do. It required advanced Linux's admin skills and experience.

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And even if you had those skills,

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you were gonna be spending a lot of time,

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and experiencing a lot of frustration

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to accomplish,

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any degree of digital sovereignty through self hosting open source software. So

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StartOS was, the missing piece, we think, that was preventing people from being able to run a server and self host in a viable, scalable,

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way.

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And so we spend a lot of time working on that.

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That said, StartOS is not a business. StartOS is an open source operating system.

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And so we also spend a lot of time,

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building a business around StartOS in the form of selling plug and play

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devices,

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AKA servers,

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with StartOS preinstalled. And we warranty those devices,

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and we support,

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those devices, and we support StartOS, and we support, many, many, but not all

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services,

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or applications

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that can be installed on StartOS.

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So our business is really

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selling devices, warranting them, and supporting them, but we put a heck of a lot of time into,

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building StartOS, which is what makes the whole thing possible.

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So

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right. There's 2 things here. There's Start9,

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the company,

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and then there's StartOS,

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the fully false

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free and open source software stack,

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that the boxes run on. And what's really cool is actually,

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I went through the paces of of flashing it on my own hardware,

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and you guys make it incredibly easy. You know? You you you take the image. You you put it on a USB drive. You take an old computer or a new computer that you just built.

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And in a couple clicks, I mean, I'm probably more technical than most people, but I think I think that's pretty accessible for a lot of people,

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and that's really, really awesome.

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But to make it even more accessible, you have these these prebuilt boxes where it's as simple as,

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you know, someone who's used to, like, ordering an iPhone or ordering a MacBook. They just order out of the box. The computer comes in the mail. They plug it in. They connect it to Internet,

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and they're off to the races with pretty little technical know how.

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I guess an interesting place to start here is we did talk about the earlier conversation we had.

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At that time, StartOS was in its infancy,

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and you had a commercially restricted license on it. So it wasn't fully false software.

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It was still the only people that can monetize it were you guys. And you actually

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you know, there's there's

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yeah.

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A lot of technical people love arguing about licenses.

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But you handled your own. There was there's there's a huge portion of my audience,

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that believes it's boss or nothing,

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and you were, like, in the ring

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with, like, 5 of them,

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and you handled your own. But since then, you've actually

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taken away that restriction,

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and there's no restrictions on the license.

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Can you talk a little bit about what went into that thinking? Why did you,

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you know, give StartOS to the world rather than maintain some level of ownership over it?

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Yeah.

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And for anyone, you know, who has not watched that episode, it was

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it was live.

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It was 3 hours and it was it was heated. There was yelling that took place. We're all friends now, but there was definitely some

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disagreements. But,

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to give people, you know, the the history here around start OS and licensing,

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We've gone through 4 licenses now. So

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when we first launched

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StartOS, it was not called StartOS. It was called EmbassyOS,

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and it was closed source.

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It was literally not even source viewable. The code was,

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closed.

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And,

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we never for a second thought that we were gonna have a closed source piece of software. We,

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you know, that's in that's impossible in the business that we're

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in and what our ambitions for the technology are.

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But we were embarrassed by it, quite frankly.

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It was like a you know, we had, like, 8 people using it, and nobody was gonna contribute. Nobody was gonna audit it. We were just being realistic

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that there was no real benefit in putting it out there at that time.

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And we still had really wonderful people who came in and supported us and because we told them. We said, yeah. We're gonna we're gonna open this up. Of course, we're gonna open it up.

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And then when we opened it up, we did so under a dual restrictive license. You could not

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commercialize it in any way, shape, or form,

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and you could not distribute it in any way, shape, or form. Right? You could get StardOS from us,

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and you had to pay us. We were selling the software. It was source viewable and you could compile it yourself,

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but you actually couldn't download the binary. We weren't hosting the compiled binary anywhere. We were selling it, and people were buying it. And that was source viewable.

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Then we dropped the nondistribution

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clause and said, nope. You don't buy it from us anymore. We'll give it to you. And not only that, but you can give it to anyone else that you want. You can host it. Anyone can distribute this thing however you want.

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So now it's source,

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available.

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It is free to distribute.

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Anyone could contribute to it. Anyone could fork it. Anyone could edit it, audit it, test it, whatever.

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The only thing they couldn't do, the only restriction that we retained was that you couldn't commercialize it for your own business, that we were the only people allowed to commercialize it. And that's when I was on the call with the,

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that was the previous Citadel dispatch was at that point in our history.

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And even at that point, as I had said from the day that it was closed source, is that we actually had a strategy here that it was never intended to be closed source forever. It was never intended to be restrictive distribution forever. It was never intended to be restricted commercialization forever, that we were gradually

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opening it up

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as we became more confident

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in the thing that we were giving it away. It's like having an infant,

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alright, and keeping it in a crib and then everyone being like, well, you can't you can't have an adult in a crib. They're not gonna they're not gonna be healthy. And it's like, but they're not an adult.

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Right? Like, have you never heard of progression? Have you never heard of strategy?

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And you can debate the strategy all day with me, and that's what we did for 3 hours on that last this

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and

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and I, in retrospect, look at our strategy from starting closed and gradually opening up, and I go, maybe it wasn't necessary.

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Maybe we could have taken that infant right from the get go and just thrown him into the ocean, and he would have swam just fine. But

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it also didn't hurt anything. Right? So we chose a strategy. We executed on that strategy, and we landed where we said we were always going to land, which was a fully false license, which in my opinion,

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and this can also be debated, mostly means MIT.

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Right? Because every other license does have some restriction attached to it that ultimately relies on,

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state force to, enforce it.

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So we went the full 9 and we made it MIT. We gave it away as you mentioned,

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and this was not

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some act of, you know, submission where we gave in to people pressuring us. It was not

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in some marketing attempt.

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It was in a genuine,

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belief and strategy on my end my team's part that the best

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chance start 9 had of surviving and thriving into the future

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was to stand on its own and to not belong to us or anyone else, and there's risk in that. FOSS is a graveyard

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of unmaintained

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projects that are insecure

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and crappy

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and unusable

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and unmaintained,

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etcetera.

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It going fast does not mean it's secure. Going fast does not mean it's gonna garner contributions or succeed. It's not gonna garner fundraising

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however,

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the biggest, most robust,

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antifragile,

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long lasting pieces of software are open source, are fully FOSS. And so you gotta take that risk, and we were willing to with StartOS. So we we set it loose. We set it free, and we still take care of it just like you take care of your kids after they turn 18 for a little while. You know? We still help it out. We still give it an allowance. We still, you know, check-in on it. But, ultimately,

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it's not ours, and we don't want it to be ours. You're paying for college still?

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Yeah.

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I like the metaphor. Is in college.

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Even though I will not advocate for my children to do the same. I mean, just for, like, a little bit of perspective here.

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Right. So MIT license Bitcoin Core is MIT license.

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Yep. It's it's considered,

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like, the it is the standard in in fully false licenses with no restrictions on it.

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At the time,

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when we did that so right now,

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for people that are interested in self hosting

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that are not highly technical,

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there are really

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in my mind, there's only really 2 options. There's there's StartOS,

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and there's Umbrel. And at the time, you and Umbrel kind of shared

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that commercially restricted license.

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Mhmm. And they chose not to participate in that roundtable. You were almost, like you almost had to, like, fight their arguments for them. There was a lot of times in that roundtable where people were essentially giving Umbral shit, but you were the only one there to actually argue it back. Yeah. Today

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so to back then, there was, like, a bunch of other projects that were kinda competing for this,

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just for this market, for this use case of of easy self hosting.

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And a lot of them are more focused on Bitcoin only. We had the Raspi Blitz guys on. Still a great project if you only wanna run Bitcoin stack stuff.

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Definitely more technical.

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We had the Ronin Dojo guys on who are are more focused on on running,

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like, the samurai stack and more on chain focused Bitcoin.

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But it it at the time, it was starting to become kind of obvious that it was Umbrel and and StartOS that were kind of going for the more mainstream,

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not just Bitcoin. Anyone who wants any kind of freedom in their life, this is the way they should go. And you guys both had commercially restricted licenses.

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Today,

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you StartOS is is MIT,

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completely false. Umbrel is continuing their path of commercially restricted,

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and it's just I think that's an interesting

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perspective for people to realize so that at the end of the day, like, if you're if you're thinking about self hosting and and you're not the most tech technical person, there's a lot of benefits.

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Like Matt said, it's not, you know doesn't automatically make something secure.

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But if you're trying to be freedom focused and you actually want control over your life,

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it's a little bit counterintuitive

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to run a stack that is owned by a company.

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You you do want something that is that is out there for the community and anyone can build on.

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One of the cool things to me about

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this transition

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is it means

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and one of the beauties of open source software in general

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is that it's almost viral in nature. It's, you know, it's not controlled by an individual. It's not controlled by a corporation. And as a result,

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in an ideal situation, you you see thousands of contributors around the world that are building on top of this thing in a permissionless fashion.

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And it's kind of the early days of that on start 9. Like, it's pretty cool that I mean, you guys have

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essentially, like, this

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concept of an app store, which I think is what most people already,

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are are very comfortable with today. But there's 2 main ones. Right? There's the there's the start 9 curated registry, and then there's the community one where presumably anyone without permission can just,

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package and upload apps. Right?

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Not really.

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So

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the the way that the way that the community registry works, right, and for anyone interested, I put a a blog post out about this, which you can find at blog.start9.com,

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which is self hosted on a start OS server running Ghost, by the way.

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And where we lay out kinda what the what the

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distinction is between these registries and what the broader registry strategy is in general. So Okay. Start 9 has the start 9 registry,

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and this is where we stamp our name on stuff. Right? We, as a team and company, are like, look.

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We

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inspect these packages. In many cases, we maintain them. Right? We are actually the ones that wrote the code, the wrapper code necessary

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to host the service on start OS.

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But at minimum, we give them heavy inspection. We test them. We write guides for them. And I don't just mean how to run it on start OS. I mean that we write guides on how to use LND, period. Like, we have more docs on running LND than maybe LND, the Lightning Labs team does. Right? So we are, in in essence, a

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support,

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line for many FOSS projects

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out there, particularly

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in in the greater Bitcoin and lightning space.

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And so anything on the start line registry is something that we stand by, we inspect, we support, we test,

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etcetera.

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The community registry is everything else, and it doesn't mean that we disagree with these things. It doesn't mean that they're insecure. It doesn't mean that they don't work. It's any of the above. It's like or we just don't have time. Right? We have a we're small team. We have very limited capacity to officially maintain everything. Because, again, we're writing docs for BTC pay server.

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And so,

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if it's on the community registry, we don't say why it's there.

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It just doesn't check every box that is necessary for us

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to take it. However,

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it must still pass

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a reasonable

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inspection

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by our team. So when somebody submits a service to be listed on the community registry,

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we do a cursory overview of the code to make sure that there's nothing obviously malicious or wrong.

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We then build it. We compile it. We load it on to start OS, and we run it. And we do

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very minor click through testing, basically, just to make sure that it's not gonna, like, crash the server, that it doesn't get into some infinite CPU loop or something like that.

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And then we release it to the community registry without an opinion. Right? But we can't

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allow someone to just put anything on the community registry because it would You guys still control the community registry.

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Absolutely. The start 9 registry and the community registry are both hosted by start 9.

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But the community registry has far less,

245
00:19:38.975 --> 00:19:43.154
criteria that need to be met to be listed on it. It's a lower standard.

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00:19:43.720 --> 00:19:47.720
Much lower standard. Right? The We don't recommend or,

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sort of endorse these services. For instance, if somebody wanted to put

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some shit coin node,

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in the FortiOS,

250
00:19:56.445 --> 00:19:57.804
there is one there. Yeah.

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00:19:58.525 --> 00:20:02.920
Then we're not gonna deny that because we stand for Sovereign Computing. Like, it'd be like Apple rejecting

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00:20:03.300 --> 00:20:06.760
some app just because they didn't like it or something like that. Do.

253
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They do, but we won't. We won't.

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But am I correct that

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people can self host registries. Right? Yes. And and that's where I was going next is that these are the 2 primary registries that exist today.

256
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DREAD had a registry spun up for a little while there that people could connect to.

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But, also,

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following the next release,

259
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and this is the first time I'm telling anyone this,

260
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Breaking news.

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You will be able to

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install

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a registry onto your server

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from the marketplace.

265
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So you'll be able

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to run a start 9,

267
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not even a start 9. Sorry. A start OS registry

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00:20:48.945 --> 00:20:54.725
on your start OS server Oh, shit. Simply by downloading the start OS registry app

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from

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our start 9 registry.

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So it's a bit sort of circular. Easiest way to host

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a self

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a self hosted

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starterOS registry is on starterOS.

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Yes. And it I know. Beautiful because then what happens is, by default, you already have

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a bunch of binaries on your server. Right? Right. So you install the registry, and then you go into a settings menu, and you just select all the services that you already have installed

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that you would like to offer to others in a store setting, like friends and family because they trust you. Right? So say, like, you're running

278
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Bitcoin on your server. Right. Everyone's like, well, if this is the Bitcoin that Matt Odell is running,

279
00:21:38.294 --> 00:21:46.600
I assume that he's checked the Shaw Sums, and he's you've proven that it's not blowing up his system, etcetera. So I can just install it from his server.

280
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So people can actually install Bitcoin

281
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instead of getting it from us or even from the Internet. They can get it from your server,

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and you can host these registries by default

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over Tor anonymously.

284
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So following the next release of StartOS,

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we are going to make the distribution

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of open source software in binary form to people running personal servers completely,

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completely

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decentralized and censorship resistant. Start 9 will have no

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no

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critical role in that. People will still probably go to our registry by default. It will be loaded practical terms, for the freaks, like, one of the big,

291
00:22:32.150 --> 00:22:34.730
in practical terms, for the freaks,

292
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like, one of the big concerns

293
00:22:37.030 --> 00:22:37.530
about

294
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a lot of people using Umbrel or using StartOS

295
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to run their their Bitcoin nodes,

296
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is that Bitcoin by default,

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is

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non automatic updates and is supposed to be

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or relies on the fact that users are choosing,

300
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when they run new software.

301
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And in both cases,

302
00:23:03.345 --> 00:23:09.300
I I mean, I haven't used a number in a long time, but I believe there's no auto updates, and there's definitely no auto updates on on StartOS.

303
00:23:10.400 --> 00:23:18.315
But the fear is always that even though there's no auto updates, like, if a user sees the big blue update button, they're just gonna press the big blue update button.

304
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And so if we get into another situation,

305
00:23:21.320 --> 00:23:25.980
which it kinda seems like we might be in the early days of of another, like, Bcash type of situation,

306
00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:31.915
an Umbrel or a start 9 can kind of choose which way their users go in a fork situation.

307
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And I think this is a very

308
00:23:35.015 --> 00:23:36.795
clever way of handling that,

309
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where it kind of removes you from

310
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that kind

311
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of decision making, king making kind of,

312
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power.

313
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It helps. Yeah. And, you know, there there's power in default.

314
00:23:48.975 --> 00:23:49.375
Yeah.

315
00:23:50.335 --> 00:23:54.515
But the easier you make the escape hatch from those defaults,

316
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the less power there is.

317
00:23:57.660 --> 00:24:03.120
Right. And so we're trying to make those escape hatches as as clear and accessible as possible.

318
00:24:04.565 --> 00:24:09.145
In fact, another forthcoming feature with 036, which we have announced,

319
00:24:10.005 --> 00:24:15.700
we get, you know, when this about every other day. Yeah. When this Is that you will be able to,

320
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:21.605
switch between different proto different implementations

321
00:24:21.905 --> 00:24:23.045
of the same protocol

322
00:24:23.745 --> 00:24:25.365
so long as they have sufficiently

323
00:24:25.665 --> 00:24:29.605
overlapping APIs and database structures, as is the case, for instance,

324
00:24:30.120 --> 00:24:32.300
with Bitcoin Forks. So,

325
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.955
knots is the example that most people are bringing up right now.

326
00:24:37.355 --> 00:24:40.575
And so you have Bitcoin core, which is the reference implementation

327
00:24:40.875 --> 00:24:42.654
for the Bitcoin node,

328
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and then you have Bitcoin knots,

329
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which is Luke Dasher's,

330
00:24:47.770 --> 00:24:48.750
fork of Bitcoin

331
00:24:49.370 --> 00:24:50.830
that has some

332
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changes

333
00:24:52.425 --> 00:24:56.525
to it that a lot of people like and want to use.

334
00:24:57.305 --> 00:24:59.325
And right now, on any,

335
00:25:00.730 --> 00:25:05.070
sort of, you know, convenient plug and play server product out there, it's not easy

336
00:25:05.370 --> 00:25:09.309
to, like, choose which fork of Bitcoin you want to run because

337
00:25:10.014 --> 00:25:11.715
the way these systems are designed,

338
00:25:12.255 --> 00:25:13.794
particularly with dependencies

339
00:25:14.255 --> 00:25:15.075
like Lightning,

340
00:25:15.375 --> 00:25:18.414
Nodes, and BTC pay, is they kinda need to know who

341
00:25:19.050 --> 00:25:21.790
what other piece of software on the system they should be looking

342
00:25:22.090 --> 00:25:24.670
to to do their own processes.

343
00:25:25.450 --> 00:25:29.294
So in post 036, which is the next version of start OS,

344
00:25:30.155 --> 00:25:36.554
different, we're we're extending the the versioning protocol that is used by most software in the world to include,

345
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:38.240
implementations

346
00:25:39.020 --> 00:25:39.520
of

347
00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:41.679
software protocols. So

348
00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:45.280
to switch between core and knots, post 036,

349
00:25:46.054 --> 00:25:51.915
will be a drop down menu, and you'll just select, like you know, I'm currently running Bitcoin core 27,

350
00:25:52.775 --> 00:25:58.880
and I'll be able to switch to knots by going to a drop down menu and just selecting Bitcoin knots 27.1

351
00:25:59.580 --> 00:26:02.160
or whatever it is and clicking switch.

352
00:26:02.585 --> 00:26:06.924
Right? It won't be upgrade. It won't be downgrade. It won't be install. It'll be switch

353
00:26:07.225 --> 00:26:07.465
to the

354
00:26:08.265 --> 00:26:12.330
it's a horizontal move rather than a, versioning up and down move.

355
00:26:13.289 --> 00:26:25.184
And you won't have to resync the chain. You won't have to do anything. You'll just switch to knots, and it'll reboot, and you'll be running knots. And then you could go back to core. And if there is, by chance, any kind of database difference,

356
00:26:25.725 --> 00:26:27.664
then it's up to the package developers

357
00:26:28.580 --> 00:26:30.840
to write those migrations that enable,

358
00:26:31.620 --> 00:26:35.160
users to go back and forth. And since we take responsibility

359
00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:36.919
for Bitcoin on StartOS,

360
00:26:37.445 --> 00:26:38.804
we will make sure that those,

361
00:26:40.085 --> 00:26:44.585
transitions are seamless so that in a soft fork or even hard fork scenario,

362
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.700
people can, with no technical expertise,

363
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:50.420
however, with lots of warnings,

364
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.080
be able to,

365
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:54.035
just sort of chain hop,

366
00:26:54.595 --> 00:26:56.055
for cop at will.

367
00:26:58.035 --> 00:27:02.455
Yeah. I mean, it's I think it's important to just drill down on that because

368
00:27:05.230 --> 00:27:09.890
if if you guys are doing your job right, which from my experience with StartOS,

369
00:27:10.885 --> 00:27:12.505
you've done a phenomenal job.

370
00:27:13.445 --> 00:27:15.625
The user kind of takes it for granted

371
00:27:16.325 --> 00:27:18.425
how many of the services have dependencies

372
00:27:18.760 --> 00:27:23.180
on other services that are running on the same box. And a perfect example of that

373
00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:24.460
is,

374
00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.340
my self hosted mempool instance.

375
00:27:28.175 --> 00:27:29.715
My self hosted mempool instance,

376
00:27:30.655 --> 00:27:32.675
relies on Bitcoin Core at the base,

377
00:27:33.295 --> 00:27:34.915
and then it relies on electrics,

378
00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:38.620
the Electrum server that is also running to make it quicker.

379
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:46.195
And so that one package, that mempool space package is really dependent on those other two services working properly.

380
00:27:46.735 --> 00:27:47.635
And l and d?

381
00:27:48.015 --> 00:27:54.029
And l and d if I'm doing lightning if I'm doing the lightning portion. Yeah. Which I'm not right now because

382
00:27:54.570 --> 00:27:56.750
I just don't really care about it. But

383
00:27:58.815 --> 00:28:01.054
if you do your job correctly, the user doesn't

384
00:28:01.535 --> 00:28:04.835
like, that isn't that is is easier said than done,

385
00:28:05.695 --> 00:28:09.460
providing that in a seamless experience, like, all the all the different,

386
00:28:09.760 --> 00:28:14.020
packages all relying on each other and still being clean for the user. Right?

387
00:28:14.560 --> 00:28:15.380
Yeah. And

388
00:28:15.760 --> 00:28:16.420
to be

389
00:28:17.164 --> 00:28:18.304
to be very clear,

390
00:28:19.725 --> 00:28:20.225
nobody,

391
00:28:21.245 --> 00:28:23.345
very few, in fact, I would

392
00:28:23.885 --> 00:28:26.784
venture to say, understand the complexity of

393
00:28:27.309 --> 00:28:31.330
the problem that we're attempting to solve here. We surely did not.

394
00:28:33.230 --> 00:28:34.850
You know, Star OS

395
00:28:36.135 --> 00:28:37.595
is in its 4th

396
00:28:38.295 --> 00:28:38.795
major

397
00:28:39.975 --> 00:28:40.475
revision

398
00:28:40.855 --> 00:28:41.355
currently.

399
00:28:43.020 --> 00:28:45.120
When we launched it, it worked really well,

400
00:28:45.820 --> 00:28:53.345
but it immediately ran into scaling issues. And I don't mean, like, user base because there is no user base. Everyone's using their own server.

401
00:28:53.804 --> 00:28:56.225
When I say scaling issues, I mean usability

402
00:28:57.164 --> 00:28:58.465
scaling. Right? Like,

403
00:28:59.190 --> 00:29:00.490
I wanna run mempool.

404
00:29:00.790 --> 00:29:03.130
I wanna self host mempool. Well, it's like,

405
00:29:03.990 --> 00:29:06.810
that has a whole different set of requirements.

406
00:29:07.525 --> 00:29:08.345
Right? A whole

407
00:29:08.725 --> 00:29:10.825
different set of skills that would have been necessary

408
00:29:11.445 --> 00:29:13.065
on the command line to achieve

409
00:29:13.845 --> 00:29:20.000
than just installing running Bitcoin. It's a whole different level of of effort and skill and time. And

410
00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:24.800
so there's ways to kind of just, like, naively

411
00:29:25.580 --> 00:29:29.975
and in the software engineering world, the word is fragile, right, to, like,

412
00:29:31.235 --> 00:29:34.135
build a a build it so that it works,

413
00:29:34.870 --> 00:29:41.850
but it's really ugly and inelegant and fragile. Like, any change would, you know, break everything type of thing.

414
00:29:42.385 --> 00:29:48.645
And we were early enough in the development of StartOS that every time we ran into one of these, like, oh, crap,

415
00:29:50.179 --> 00:29:55.159
Our current infrastructure architecture and code, you know, engineering strategy

416
00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.679
does not

417
00:29:57.065 --> 00:30:02.605
accommodate or account for this new use case, this new service that people want to run

418
00:30:03.705 --> 00:30:06.779
rather than just sort of, like, hacking it in

419
00:30:07.159 --> 00:30:12.299
and as quickly as possible so that, you know, we get the big marketing announcement and everyone gets to run it.

420
00:30:13.159 --> 00:30:14.460
We chose to

421
00:30:15.544 --> 00:30:18.764
go back to the drawing board, so to speak, and

422
00:30:20.024 --> 00:30:20.524
redesign

423
00:30:21.065 --> 00:30:21.565
StartOS

424
00:30:21.945 --> 00:30:23.965
as low level as necessary

425
00:30:24.810 --> 00:30:25.710
to get it

426
00:30:26.090 --> 00:30:29.150
to provide the feature or service that everyone wants,

427
00:30:29.610 --> 00:30:31.310
but in a way that now accommodates,

428
00:30:31.610 --> 00:30:36.385
say, other services that have similar needs or even, you know, slightly similar needs.

429
00:30:36.925 --> 00:30:38.545
And we finally think

430
00:30:39.565 --> 00:30:47.400
that we've got them all. Right? It's we're in our 5th year. We're almost gonna be 5, and we're in our 4th major rewrite of StartOS.

431
00:30:48.260 --> 00:30:50.200
And we think that this one,

432
00:30:51.554 --> 00:30:54.534
sort of solves the problem that is

433
00:30:54.995 --> 00:30:56.215
how can a nontechnical

434
00:30:56.515 --> 00:30:57.015
person

435
00:30:57.635 --> 00:30:58.455
self host

436
00:30:59.300 --> 00:30:59.800
any

437
00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:01.400
type of software

438
00:31:02.180 --> 00:31:10.555
on their own server without possessing the traditional skills necessary to accomplish that? I think we've done it. I think the next major version

439
00:31:11.255 --> 00:31:17.340
gets us to what we were gonna what we're gonna call 1 point o. We're sort of it's a finished product

440
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.465
minus the forever features and bug fixes that will there follow, but

441
00:31:23.184 --> 00:31:25.125
we got the architecture right finally.

442
00:31:26.544 --> 00:31:27.924
Yeah. Well, I want to,

443
00:31:29.025 --> 00:31:30.590
first of all, famous last words.

444
00:31:31.150 --> 00:31:35.090
I wanted to talk about I definitely wanna talk about the future with you,

445
00:31:35.630 --> 00:31:40.450
because that seems like where a lot of the questions from the audience have come from. I've a lot of the dispatch,

446
00:31:41.774 --> 00:31:43.635
a lot of the freaks that listen to dispatch,

447
00:31:44.335 --> 00:31:47.315
seem to be running start OS already, myself included.

448
00:31:48.095 --> 00:31:49.630
So a lot of it is, you know,

449
00:31:49.950 --> 00:31:53.490
when this, when that, what's the future. But before we get to that,

450
00:31:53.870 --> 00:31:54.370
I

451
00:31:55.390 --> 00:31:58.610
wanna unpack the boxes a little bit because I think it's really cool

452
00:32:00.785 --> 00:32:01.525
and absolutely

453
00:32:02.225 --> 00:32:04.245
important that anyone can just,

454
00:32:04.625 --> 00:32:08.405
you know, build their own computer, use an old computer, run this thing themselves.

455
00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:11.720
That's the path that I chose particularly because,

456
00:32:12.899 --> 00:32:15.159
I'm a crazy person, and I have, like,

457
00:32:15.914 --> 00:32:21.054
an insanely souped up box. And I just wanted to see, like, how I can how if I can push it to its limit.

458
00:32:22.715 --> 00:32:23.215
But

459
00:32:23.860 --> 00:32:26.360
I think the overwhelming majority of people

460
00:32:26.980 --> 00:32:28.920
will probably end up buying prebuilts.

461
00:32:29.300 --> 00:32:40.034
And, I mean, the way you have it architectured, I guess, other companies, you know, in in a in a world where start 9 becomes the main way that people host their lives, and this is way bigger than Bitcoin. This is photos.

462
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.700
This is everything you rely on the cloud for,

463
00:32:43.240 --> 00:32:45.500
but instead running in your home or your office.

464
00:32:46.280 --> 00:32:53.144
There probably will be other vendors that are, like, packaging prebuilt boxes, and we're just, like, in the early days. So it's it's just you guys.

465
00:32:53.924 --> 00:32:56.664
But these two boxes that you're offering, you're offering,

466
00:32:57.380 --> 00:32:59.639
the server 1 and the server pure.

467
00:33:02.259 --> 00:33:09.434
I wanted to like, I I think a lot of people's first interaction will be simply buying one of those. Like, I know when I talk to friends and family

468
00:33:09.975 --> 00:33:18.669
that want to self host, I don't tell them, you know, I will build your computer and then flash flash the OS. Like, I just send them the link to the store page.

469
00:33:20.075 --> 00:33:22.795
And particularly, what I wanna talk about is

470
00:33:24.075 --> 00:33:24.575
so,

471
00:33:25.755 --> 00:33:28.175
my good friend, Catan, of Ministry of Nodes,

472
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:36.820
was absolutely incorrect about mempools and and how, you know, how the fee environment in Bitcoin would would interact.

473
00:33:37.265 --> 00:33:39.365
But he was very much correct,

474
00:33:41.425 --> 00:33:43.765
I think, on, like, the death of running

475
00:33:44.200 --> 00:33:51.115
self hosting on a Raspberry Pi. And I think it's pretty cool that you guys seem to have embraced it, essentially. Like

476
00:33:51.675 --> 00:33:52.815
like, these are not

477
00:33:53.355 --> 00:33:58.130
low power boxes. These are, you know, these are these are, you know, properly spec'd,

478
00:33:58.850 --> 00:34:01.670
very powerful computers that you're selling to people.

479
00:34:02.290 --> 00:34:07.670
And I'm kinda curious, like, your thoughts there on, like, those two offerings, the server 1 and the server pure.

480
00:34:08.675 --> 00:34:09.175
Yep.

481
00:34:09.875 --> 00:34:10.195
The,

482
00:34:11.075 --> 00:34:13.015
the hardware that you choose

483
00:34:13.875 --> 00:34:16.535
to do any kind of computing activity

484
00:34:17.809 --> 00:34:22.230
very much depends on what you plan to run on it. Okay? So

485
00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:23.589
for instance,

486
00:34:23.970 --> 00:34:30.615
we still provide a build for the Raspberry Pi. Yeah. You can run start OS on a Raspberry Pi.

487
00:34:32.995 --> 00:34:34.215
And it works

488
00:34:34.595 --> 00:34:35.575
just fine

489
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:37.740
if you are running

490
00:34:39.160 --> 00:34:40.220
a file server

491
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:42.700
or a messaging app,

492
00:34:43.345 --> 00:34:51.765
you know, or you wanna share some photos and, you know, you are attaching a 4 terabyte drive to it, it works fine. Right? The Pi is a

493
00:34:52.820 --> 00:34:53.320
fine,

494
00:34:53.700 --> 00:34:54.520
low powered,

495
00:34:55.300 --> 00:34:55.800
cheap

496
00:34:56.340 --> 00:34:56.840
computer

497
00:34:57.860 --> 00:34:59.000
that could satisfy

498
00:34:59.825 --> 00:35:02.645
the needs of somebody doing some lightweight self hosting.

499
00:35:05.505 --> 00:35:06.785
It's not open source,

500
00:35:08.029 --> 00:35:14.529
from a firmware perspective. Right? The the pie is a as NVK likes to talk about it, he hates it.

501
00:35:15.305 --> 00:35:17.885
He he thinks it's What do they do to him in his childhood?

502
00:35:18.265 --> 00:35:20.045
He thinks it's the most backdoored,

503
00:35:20.505 --> 00:35:21.005
surveilled

504
00:35:21.704 --> 00:35:25.770
pile of crap that's ever existed. And, you know, maybe it is.

505
00:35:26.150 --> 00:35:32.954
We don't know. That's sort of the point. Right? Is that the the firmware drivers and the we don't they're all closed source.

506
00:35:33.255 --> 00:35:35.434
So even though StartOS is open source,

507
00:35:35.734 --> 00:35:39.674
the pie is sort of notoriously kinda low level backdoored, so to speak.

508
00:35:40.670 --> 00:35:54.655
But that said, it'll get the job done for a lot of hosting needs. And it's cheap as fuck. It's super cheap. It's a great way for somebody looking to just, as a hobby, spin something up and try it out. Right? Like, you can't go wrong. You can literally run it off a micro SD card. You don't even need,

509
00:35:55.515 --> 00:36:03.950
an external drive. Right? You get yourself a 128 gigabyte micro SD card and have a good time for probably, like, 4 or 5 years on that thing.

510
00:36:04.664 --> 00:36:08.125
Self hosting messaging and data applications. No big deal.

511
00:36:08.664 --> 00:36:10.204
But if you wanna run Bitcoin,

512
00:36:10.585 --> 00:36:27.915
you wanna run a Alect RS, you wanna run LND, and you wanna run mempool, you wanna run these things alongside other stuff, BTC pay, the pie is going to ship the bed very quickly. I mean, most people I think, like, most people's general reaction when, like, they when they get into this is

513
00:36:28.315 --> 00:36:35.520
especially when you have this nice layout for the app store is just install, install, install, install, install. Like, they just wanna run everything. Yeah.

514
00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:43.895
And that works on the devices that we offer now. You can install it all, and it'll all work. You're not gonna hit resource limitations.

515
00:36:44.915 --> 00:36:49.520
So we are selling devices currently, both the server 1 and the server Pure,

516
00:36:49.820 --> 00:36:50.640
that are

517
00:36:51.100 --> 00:36:51.600
properly

518
00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:52.880
overkill

519
00:36:53.500 --> 00:36:54.800
for a lot of people.

520
00:36:55.125 --> 00:37:05.390
Okay? Like, a lot of people are buying these devices right now, and it's more power than they need. But we don't really see that as a problem as long as the price is still reasonable.

521
00:37:05.690 --> 00:37:10.750
Right? It's better to get more than you need, more power than you need at a reasonable price

522
00:37:11.130 --> 00:37:11.630
than,

523
00:37:12.375 --> 00:37:27.980
you know, cut it close or get less power than you need trying to save a buck. It's just not worth it. So we finally just gave up on on trying to run make everything run on a perfectly, you know, low resourced device like a pie, and we just said, if you wanna do more stuff, you gotta get a more powerful device.

524
00:37:28.535 --> 00:37:31.995
We're happy to sell them. We don't mark them up in any

525
00:37:32.375 --> 00:37:36.395
massive way. Right? We're not, like, fleecing people that It's very competitive.

526
00:37:36.760 --> 00:37:41.580
The, prices that we charge for our devices are similar to what you can get anywhere else,

527
00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:47.625
and you are you are that is your donation. You're contributing to the project. Like, we can't continue

528
00:37:47.925 --> 00:37:50.665
to fund the development of these technologies forever

529
00:37:51.045 --> 00:37:53.065
unless we receive either donations

530
00:37:53.605 --> 00:37:54.105
or,

531
00:37:54.805 --> 00:37:55.305
purchases.

532
00:37:55.930 --> 00:38:01.950
And so that's how we view people who buy our hardware. We view it more as a donation because they don't have to,

533
00:38:03.415 --> 00:38:05.915
and we actually, like you said at the beginning,

534
00:38:06.375 --> 00:38:16.680
encourage the DIY approach. We don't hide it. It's not like something we I make it super easy. You have documentation and everything. Advertise it. Right? Like, I love it when people DIY

535
00:38:17.460 --> 00:38:23.415
because they they contribute in a different way. Right? Because I I want to impress them. I want to make the DIY

536
00:38:24.115 --> 00:38:24.615
experience,

537
00:38:25.715 --> 00:38:26.215
seamless

538
00:38:27.155 --> 00:38:27.655
and

539
00:38:29.010 --> 00:38:30.470
equal to the purchasing

540
00:38:30.849 --> 00:38:31.349
approach

541
00:38:32.130 --> 00:38:41.825
because they'll appreciate that. And oftentimes, when people appreciate something, they show their appreciation, And we need that more now than we need sales. I would rather have somebody DIY

542
00:38:42.605 --> 00:38:44.464
and go brag about it on Twitter

543
00:38:45.350 --> 00:38:45.990
or Noster

544
00:38:46.310 --> 00:38:56.365
Yeah. I can't brag about it on Twitter. Sorry. Then have somebody buy from us and remain silent. If I had the choice, I would choose that they do not give us money, but about how wonderful their experience was. I think there's, like, another

545
00:38:56.705 --> 00:38:58.285
piece to it too about

546
00:39:02.609 --> 00:39:05.430
I mean, I've always been an overkill electronics guy.

547
00:39:06.450 --> 00:39:13.105
I think most people are overkill electronics people, and they don't even know it. Like, most people, if they get the newest iPhone or the newest MacBook

548
00:39:13.405 --> 00:39:15.185
Yeah. They don't need all that power.

549
00:39:15.645 --> 00:39:25.390
Yeah. But they do, and they they they buy it, and then they have a great experience. But I think in the self hosting world, which is very new, like, we're on the cutting edge, freaks. Like, this is

550
00:39:27.464 --> 00:39:33.165
everyone moved to the cloud, the world moved to the cloud, everyone's trusting other people's computers, all your data is being monetized,

551
00:39:34.370 --> 00:39:40.950
And, hopefully, like, the start and hinds of the world, the start OSs, all the different open source projects that are being funded by open sets,

552
00:39:42.565 --> 00:39:47.145
bring us to a new better world in the in the future because I don't think this is sustainable.

553
00:39:48.325 --> 00:39:50.505
But in my mind, when I think about

554
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:57.340
whether it's an uncle Jim kind of scenario where someone's running it for their community or their family,

555
00:39:57.720 --> 00:40:01.714
or if you're just running it for yourself and and and your immediate family.

556
00:40:02.815 --> 00:40:05.474
It it seems to me like more of, like, a

557
00:40:06.174 --> 00:40:10.450
hot water heater per purchase. Like, it's a boiler purchase or something. It's not

558
00:40:10.990 --> 00:40:12.450
it's it's not this thing

559
00:40:13.310 --> 00:40:21.845
that I'm I'm supposed to be upgrading on a yearly basis or a 2 year basis. Like, I I think you want it to be, like, a 5 to 10 year

560
00:40:22.224 --> 00:40:22.724
machine,

561
00:40:23.665 --> 00:40:25.125
that you can rely on,

562
00:40:25.905 --> 00:40:26.405
because

563
00:40:27.280 --> 00:40:32.980
our whole lives well, most people's lives wholly rely on the cloud, and they're just assuming

564
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:38.795
that Google will always have all their emails or they'll always have Apple will always have all their photos.

565
00:40:39.895 --> 00:40:42.795
And it's it's it it there's a mental burden.

566
00:40:43.600 --> 00:40:49.460
It's it's almost more of a mental burden than an economic burden. I think freaks can relate to this if they've attempted

567
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.245
to to live this type of life.

568
00:40:52.885 --> 00:40:54.665
You know, I recently had a child.

569
00:40:55.205 --> 00:40:58.665
Like, I don't wanna lose my child's photos, and I'm not trying

570
00:40:59.205 --> 00:41:00.185
to save $200

571
00:41:01.330 --> 00:41:04.150
and then upgrade in a year or 2 years,

572
00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:06.870
over my child's photos.

573
00:41:07.170 --> 00:41:09.750
Like, there's an there's a un a nonquantifiable

574
00:41:11.285 --> 00:41:12.665
value in those photos.

575
00:41:14.165 --> 00:41:17.145
And I I would almost relate it more to, like, a,

576
00:41:17.765 --> 00:41:19.865
like, a, like, a central air

577
00:41:20.270 --> 00:41:28.609
AC heat or boiler purchase. Right? It's like you're kinda trying to think a little bit more long term on it. I sure hope so. Yeah. Right? Because

578
00:41:29.475 --> 00:41:31.255
these are not high touch devices.

579
00:41:32.115 --> 00:41:40.119
They're they're not supposed to be. They are now because we're early and it's still evolving, and we're still learning and,

580
00:41:41.859 --> 00:41:46.359
but we hope to eventually have the server completely fade to the background again.

581
00:41:46.685 --> 00:41:51.505
Right? Like, servers were at the forefront of computing back when we started connecting computers to each other,

582
00:41:52.125 --> 00:41:59.860
and then they faded away to the background. And nobody even knows what a server is Right? All they know were what clients are. They have their phone and they have their laptop and

583
00:42:00.240 --> 00:42:05.425
they install apps, and the servers are just these mystical beings that exist somewhere out of

584
00:42:05.805 --> 00:42:07.585
sight that is making all the synchronization

585
00:42:07.885 --> 00:42:08.625
and persistence

586
00:42:09.085 --> 00:42:11.105
and, you know, processing

587
00:42:11.405 --> 00:42:11.905
happen.

588
00:42:12.620 --> 00:42:13.020
And,

589
00:42:13.420 --> 00:42:14.400
it was that

590
00:42:15.260 --> 00:42:15.760
opacity

591
00:42:16.140 --> 00:42:19.680
of just sort of putting this out of mind and out of sight

592
00:42:20.035 --> 00:42:25.335
that has allowed the people who didn't put it out of mind and out of sight, who are doing it on behalf of everywhere else,

593
00:42:25.714 --> 00:42:31.460
to grow immense power for themselves, wealth and power. And it's we've created a monster.

594
00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:38.575
And the consequences of that the monster's starting to eat people now. And so the the the consequences are becoming increasingly,

595
00:42:40.075 --> 00:42:40.575
apparent.

596
00:42:41.435 --> 00:42:46.200
And so we have to bring servers back into the public consciousness,

597
00:42:46.900 --> 00:42:58.345
so that people understand what a server is, what its role in the computing paradigm is, and how running your own server it's almost like farms. Right? Like, people just forgot about farms. Food is just at the grocery store. It's the same thing with servers.

598
00:42:58.839 --> 00:43:11.545
Right? And once they realize what's what the farmers are doing, often at the behest of the regulators, they're like, oh, shit. I better grow my own food. It's the same thing with servers. At some point, you just go, I gotta run my own server because what they're doing is unacceptable.

599
00:43:12.964 --> 00:43:13.464
And

600
00:43:14.150 --> 00:43:16.329
but our goal long term

601
00:43:16.950 --> 00:43:22.730
is actually to get the technology to the point where you don't even really realize

602
00:43:23.664 --> 00:43:29.845
that it's a server anymore. It's just some appliance in your house. Right? More of an appliance. Yeah. It's just some appliance.

603
00:43:30.464 --> 00:43:32.964
The analogy to farming here would be, like, you know, everyone

604
00:43:33.430 --> 00:43:39.849
doing horticulture today and, like, having your own farm at your house is very difficult, but you can imagine an advanced technological

605
00:43:40.150 --> 00:43:40.650
world

606
00:43:41.030 --> 00:43:58.090
where that could be some automated system as well. Right? Advanced irrigation and robots doing all your farming, but it's still your farm. You're still the farmer. It's just not as hard as it used to be. And that's kind of what we're doing with servers, is you bring the server in house, and start OS

607
00:43:58.845 --> 00:44:02.625
is the the key to to making it more of an appliance

608
00:44:03.244 --> 00:44:05.664
and less of a skill and activity.

609
00:44:07.160 --> 00:44:07.980
And so, eventually,

610
00:44:08.359 --> 00:44:19.395
our vision be a hobby. It should be just your family relies on it. It's working. Servers are just infrastructure. They're they're needed, but they should be in the background. So we're at this very awkward phase right now

611
00:44:19.775 --> 00:44:22.275
where we need servers to come

612
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:29.859
back to the foreground. We need people to understand them and adopt them and put up with some pain and effort for a while, the early adopters,

613
00:44:30.485 --> 00:44:34.025
while we gradually work towards sending them to the background again,

614
00:44:34.325 --> 00:44:36.265
but this time in the right way.

615
00:44:36.565 --> 00:44:37.865
This time in a decentralized,

616
00:44:39.020 --> 00:44:39.520
proprietary

617
00:44:39.900 --> 00:44:44.000
way where everybody owns their own infrastructure computing infrastructure.

618
00:44:44.940 --> 00:44:46.480
And, eventually, the UX

619
00:44:46.885 --> 00:44:51.385
that we have always sought for, I mean, from day 1 to late 2019

620
00:44:51.685 --> 00:44:53.705
at start 9, we were talking about this,

621
00:44:54.085 --> 00:44:54.585
is,

622
00:44:54.910 --> 00:44:59.730
ultimately what we want is a client device. So you have your Graphene phone here. Okay?

623
00:45:00.190 --> 00:45:00.930
And you

624
00:45:01.710 --> 00:45:14.750
install an app from F droid or you side load it or whatever, you get an app on your phone. We'll call it a Bitcoin wallet. K? So you I download a client Bitcoin wallet onto my phone. Now let's pretend that I don't have a Bitcoin node running.

625
00:45:15.130 --> 00:45:15.630
Right?

626
00:45:16.090 --> 00:45:16.990
But the wallet

627
00:45:17.450 --> 00:45:22.110
so I'm I'm signed into my server from my phone. You know how, like, on the

628
00:45:22.545 --> 00:45:25.765
iPhones and and the Pixels when you have stock Android,

629
00:45:27.025 --> 00:45:32.760
one of the first things that you do when you set the phone up is you, like, sign in to your Icloud account. You Sign in to your Google account.

630
00:45:33.700 --> 00:45:36.920
You are authenticating to that account at the root of the phone.

631
00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:41.845
It's not some app. It's like the phone is signing in to that account. Right?

632
00:45:42.244 --> 00:45:46.425
So now whenever I install a Google app onto my phone,

633
00:45:47.365 --> 00:45:49.600
I don't have to log in. Right?

634
00:45:49.900 --> 00:45:54.320
It's using the SSO of the of the authenticated account on the phone

635
00:45:54.940 --> 00:45:56.720
to access the app.

636
00:45:57.425 --> 00:45:59.125
What we envision is a similar,

637
00:46:00.065 --> 00:46:00.565
UX

638
00:46:00.945 --> 00:46:04.244
for your own server in the future. You will open up your phone,

639
00:46:04.730 --> 00:46:05.870
and you will sign

640
00:46:06.490 --> 00:46:07.710
in to your server.

641
00:46:08.570 --> 00:46:09.070
Now

642
00:46:09.530 --> 00:46:14.785
you won't even know what that is. It's just it's a router. It's it's appliance that's in your home. You plugged it in,

643
00:46:15.165 --> 00:46:23.380
and it gave you some credentials. And now you get your phone and your laptop, and you just sign in to that thing. So now when I install, say, a Bitcoin wallet,

644
00:46:23.839 --> 00:46:25.539
the Bitcoin wallet would say,

645
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:27.220
well, where's my node?

646
00:46:27.895 --> 00:46:29.595
Right? Do you want me to use

647
00:46:30.375 --> 00:46:34.635
the server, or do you wanna use some other server? Well, you'd say mine. That would be the default.

648
00:46:34.940 --> 00:46:46.195
Right. But it's not installed. Right? You never installed Bitcoin. You never synced Bitcoin. Right? But you don't now you don't have to. The wallet will do it. The wallet will be like, oh, you've said that you wanna use your own server for this.

649
00:46:46.655 --> 00:46:49.635
May I make changes to your server? Can I install Bitcoin

650
00:46:50.410 --> 00:46:53.069
and, you know, do all this? And you just click yes.

651
00:46:53.609 --> 00:46:59.565
And now you're so the entire experience is pushed back to the client. You never actually have to

652
00:47:00.184 --> 00:47:01.964
directly administer the server.

653
00:47:02.265 --> 00:47:05.325
The client makes changes to the server as needed

654
00:47:05.720 --> 00:47:09.339
in order to do the things that you want to do on your phone and laptop.

655
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:12.859
And we believe that we can actually get to this point,

656
00:47:13.444 --> 00:47:17.065
in a reasonable amount of time. Not for everything, but

657
00:47:17.365 --> 00:47:21.065
slowly but surely, we can make it usable for more and more things.

658
00:47:21.869 --> 00:47:22.609
That's awesome.

659
00:47:23.390 --> 00:47:27.330
Okay. I wanna dive deep. But before we dive deep, I feel like this is a good point

660
00:47:29.145 --> 00:47:35.325
to discuss. First of all, by the way, do you see in the live chat, it's you see Kieran in the live chat? He's the container of AppStream.

661
00:47:35.785 --> 00:47:36.285
Yeah.

662
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:43.980
I Thanks, Kieran. This is great. This is Matt's this is Matt's first introduction to Zapsdream. I think it's a

663
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:45.485
fucking awesome project.

664
00:47:46.845 --> 00:47:52.705
And, you know, Kieran has the vision that there'll be many instances of ZapStream. So maybe one day,

665
00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:57.500
we'll see it on on start OS. That could be fucking cool.

666
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:00.380
I feel like this is a good moment to highlight,

667
00:48:01.295 --> 00:48:04.515
because I hate when pump and other people don't highlight it.

668
00:48:05.215 --> 00:48:06.335
And I'm a little bit of a

669
00:48:09.370 --> 00:48:11.630
you know, I'm I have I have battling,

670
00:48:13.050 --> 00:48:15.070
angels in my head constantly,

671
00:48:15.530 --> 00:48:18.270
when when it comes to open source and when it comes to

672
00:48:18.805 --> 00:48:20.165
funding the future and making

673
00:48:20.645 --> 00:48:22.905
being being the change we wanna see in the world.

674
00:48:23.765 --> 00:48:24.175
To me,

675
00:48:25.630 --> 00:48:29.009
so I have you know, I'm cofounder of OpenSats and managing partner in 1031.

676
00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:34.529
To me, they both play a key pivotal role in in the future.

677
00:48:35.215 --> 00:48:35.715
And,

678
00:48:36.895 --> 00:48:40.515
and and how I kind of frame that in my head

679
00:48:41.135 --> 00:48:41.635
is,

680
00:48:43.600 --> 00:48:44.180
I think

681
00:48:44.560 --> 00:48:45.060
OpenSats

682
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:46.820
is a way

683
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:54.305
to to seed the future, to to to to basically throw gasoline on the fire that is

684
00:48:54.605 --> 00:48:58.305
open source contributors around the world, making the world a better place.

685
00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:03.380
But grants are, like, never a sustainable path. I

686
00:49:03.839 --> 00:49:12.065
I I'm grateful for all of our donors. I hope our donation base increases over time. I hope we build a massive Bitcoin treasury

687
00:49:12.525 --> 00:49:14.625
and we expand our grants from a 120

688
00:49:15.180 --> 00:49:21.600
20 plus people to thousands of people around the world who are able to go full time into open source development.

689
00:49:22.140 --> 00:49:26.285
But I'm also a capitalist, and I think the the real sustainable future

690
00:49:27.145 --> 00:49:28.205
is businesses,

691
00:49:30.105 --> 00:49:33.085
that build, maintain, foster open source

692
00:49:34.089 --> 00:49:34.589
projects,

693
00:49:35.369 --> 00:49:37.310
but are also able to make a sustainable,

694
00:49:39.530 --> 00:49:42.510
SaaS flow, make a sustainable Bitcoin cash flow,

695
00:49:43.305 --> 00:49:51.005
so that so that they are not reliant on anyone else, that they're truly independent and and not relying on anyone else. And on that note,

696
00:49:51.730 --> 00:49:52.230
1031

697
00:49:52.849 --> 00:49:54.869
is a investor in Start 9.

698
00:49:55.970 --> 00:49:59.670
And I wanna talk a little bit before we dive deep into StartOS,

699
00:50:00.115 --> 00:50:05.095
I wanna talk a little bit about what what you see as the business model for Start 9,

700
00:50:05.475 --> 00:50:10.380
the company. Like, how does how does the company make a sustainable profit going into the future,

701
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.380
so that you're not reliant I mean, you've never taken a grant,

702
00:50:14.765 --> 00:50:18.065
but that you're not reliant on grants and you're not reliant on,

703
00:50:19.164 --> 00:50:31.000
like, Fiat VC, which we're not Fiat VC. Like, we're not we're not just gonna give you money forever with no growth and no profitability. Yeah. Like, that's not gonna happen. So how do you how do you think about, like, the business model of Start9

704
00:50:32.565 --> 00:50:33.065
Today,

705
00:50:33.365 --> 00:50:35.545
going forward, like, what's that path?

706
00:50:36.164 --> 00:50:38.825
Yeah. You are touching on something that

707
00:50:40.170 --> 00:50:40.670
really,

708
00:50:42.330 --> 00:50:47.790
I had to really sort of meditate on for years as we were building

709
00:50:48.095 --> 00:50:49.875
start 9. Right? So in 2019,

710
00:50:51.375 --> 00:50:52.515
man, we had ideas.

711
00:50:53.934 --> 00:50:54.595
You know,

712
00:50:55.350 --> 00:50:57.930
we didn't really know what the business model

713
00:50:59.270 --> 00:51:01.770
was gonna be and would evolve into,

714
00:51:03.745 --> 00:51:07.365
and now I do. And but the process from getting from there to here,

715
00:51:08.625 --> 00:51:12.245
which is not a crazy thing, which I'll say in a second,

716
00:51:12.980 --> 00:51:16.040
was much harder than it might appear at first glance. Right? Like,

717
00:51:17.619 --> 00:51:19.160
in the open source

718
00:51:21.035 --> 00:51:21.535
decentralized

719
00:51:21.915 --> 00:51:24.415
world so not decentralized. Disintermediated.

720
00:51:25.115 --> 00:51:27.775
Okay? Yep. If your goal is to

721
00:51:28.430 --> 00:51:29.730
write open source software

722
00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:32.369
and not be a necessary

723
00:51:32.670 --> 00:51:33.170
middleman

724
00:51:34.430 --> 00:51:35.810
somewhere in the equation,

725
00:51:37.545 --> 00:51:39.724
you have a very hard time making money

726
00:51:40.585 --> 00:51:43.724
because those are the two places to make money. Right? It's

727
00:51:44.210 --> 00:51:44.710
property

728
00:51:45.410 --> 00:51:47.430
that you can leverage for rent

729
00:51:48.050 --> 00:51:49.110
They're rent seeking.

730
00:51:49.410 --> 00:51:50.470
Or it is,

731
00:51:51.250 --> 00:51:51.750
positioning

732
00:51:52.050 --> 00:51:56.195
that you can leverage for brokering fees, that you can leverage for free fees.

733
00:51:57.375 --> 00:52:00.515
And if we wanna build a world that's open and decentralized,

734
00:52:02.240 --> 00:52:03.540
you can't do those things.

735
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:05.220
So how do you make money?

736
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:07.700
Well, what I realized

737
00:52:08.455 --> 00:52:13.675
was I just looked at the world as it as it exists, and one of my favorite analogies

738
00:52:14.135 --> 00:52:14.955
is restaurants.

739
00:52:17.140 --> 00:52:18.760
Why do people go to restaurants?

740
00:52:20.500 --> 00:52:23.560
Right? It has nothing to do with intermediation

741
00:52:23.860 --> 00:52:24.600
or property.

742
00:52:25.235 --> 00:52:28.615
Nothing. Restaurants are making money strictly

743
00:52:29.475 --> 00:52:29.975
on

744
00:52:30.675 --> 00:52:31.175
convenience.

745
00:52:31.555 --> 00:52:32.675
They're making money on,

746
00:52:33.460 --> 00:52:36.040
leisure and convenience. They're basically saying that,

747
00:52:37.060 --> 00:52:40.200
you don't you don't need us. You can cook your own food, and you can do it cheaper.

748
00:52:41.665 --> 00:52:44.645
We in no way are sitting in your kitchen and charging

749
00:52:45.825 --> 00:52:47.525
you fees while we, you know,

750
00:52:48.224 --> 00:52:49.205
set your table.

751
00:52:49.839 --> 00:52:52.500
That's called catering, and you can do that as well if you want.

752
00:52:53.119 --> 00:52:53.619
But,

753
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:56.500
restaurants make money because

754
00:52:57.335 --> 00:53:05.995
people like luxury. They like convenience. They like to go out. They like to not have to do things themselves. They like to be waited on and cared for and supported.

755
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.260
You know, it's a service business,

756
00:53:10.760 --> 00:53:12.540
not a product business.

757
00:53:13.545 --> 00:53:16.365
And so I realized that in the open source

758
00:53:17.145 --> 00:53:17.645
decentralized

759
00:53:18.025 --> 00:53:18.525
world,

760
00:53:19.704 --> 00:53:21.885
the only things that you can really sell

761
00:53:22.620 --> 00:53:23.120
sustainably,

762
00:53:24.060 --> 00:53:24.560
scalably,

763
00:53:25.340 --> 00:53:25.840
is

764
00:53:26.300 --> 00:53:27.040
a service,

765
00:53:27.500 --> 00:53:29.440
some sort of unnecessary

766
00:53:31.205 --> 00:53:33.545
service, right, where people don't need it,

767
00:53:34.005 --> 00:53:35.225
but they want it.

768
00:53:35.765 --> 00:53:36.745
And increasingly,

769
00:53:37.045 --> 00:53:40.825
services can be thought of as emotional services as well

770
00:53:41.190 --> 00:53:43.130
or even more poignantly,

771
00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:45.369
community

772
00:53:45.670 --> 00:53:46.170
services.

773
00:53:46.470 --> 00:53:47.290
So, like,

774
00:53:47.990 --> 00:53:48.790
people need

775
00:53:49.349 --> 00:53:50.490
humans need

776
00:53:51.075 --> 00:53:52.694
a sense of belongingness,

777
00:53:53.234 --> 00:53:55.095
purpose, and community. Okay?

778
00:53:55.634 --> 00:53:57.575
And if you can provide that,

779
00:53:58.720 --> 00:53:59.940
they are grateful.

780
00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:06.180
And where people are grateful, they are willing to provide back, as in they're willing to pay for it

781
00:54:06.545 --> 00:54:09.365
as long as the relationship feels value for value.

782
00:54:10.065 --> 00:54:14.085
So, ultimately, what we have decided to monetize and build a business around

783
00:54:14.750 --> 00:54:15.250
is

784
00:54:16.030 --> 00:54:16.530
support,

785
00:54:17.550 --> 00:54:19.570
helping people to use,

786
00:54:21.230 --> 00:54:25.375
technologies that improve their lives, holding their hand, being kind to them,

787
00:54:25.675 --> 00:54:26.175
being

788
00:54:26.555 --> 00:54:28.095
exceedingly generous and helpful,

789
00:54:28.875 --> 00:54:36.330
and to provide spaces for these people to discover other people like them, right, to provide a sense of community and purpose

790
00:54:36.630 --> 00:54:39.930
and mission. Right? Like, a lot of start 9 customers,

791
00:54:41.095 --> 00:54:43.115
I don't think of as customers.

792
00:54:43.415 --> 00:54:48.475
Right? These people don't have to buy anything from us. They are choosing to join a community

793
00:54:49.015 --> 00:54:49.915
that they think

794
00:54:50.860 --> 00:54:51.360
is

795
00:54:51.980 --> 00:54:53.200
meaningful and important

796
00:54:53.660 --> 00:54:55.280
and that they fit in with.

797
00:54:55.820 --> 00:55:07.365
And paying a few bucks for a server is is a non thought for that person. They're just like, of course. Right? It's not an admission fee. They don't have to pay it. Right. But they want to. It's almost a donation of sorts

798
00:55:07.740 --> 00:55:11.119
or a dues you could call it, like a membership fee that's optional.

799
00:55:11.980 --> 00:55:12.480
And

800
00:55:13.339 --> 00:55:19.905
I think that you can build a massive business on this model, and I'm one of the few people who think that you can do that. And,

801
00:55:20.605 --> 00:55:21.985
I really do, and it's

802
00:55:22.285 --> 00:55:27.099
proving itself to be correct. Okay? Like, start 9 is accelerating. We are

803
00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:29.660
moving very much and very quickly

804
00:55:30.279 --> 00:55:31.180
in a profitable

805
00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:31.980
direction,

806
00:55:32.505 --> 00:55:34.605
and we've barely scratched the surface

807
00:55:35.225 --> 00:55:40.285
of the potential market that we're dealing with here. And we have done it while all the while

808
00:55:40.660 --> 00:55:42.280
encouraging people to DIY,

809
00:55:42.820 --> 00:55:44.280
giving away the software,

810
00:55:44.580 --> 00:55:45.080
removing

811
00:55:45.380 --> 00:55:45.880
ourselves

812
00:55:46.420 --> 00:55:49.480
from the experience at every possible opportunity,

813
00:55:50.255 --> 00:55:52.835
but then opening a door and saying, hey.

814
00:55:53.375 --> 00:55:54.275
We're here.

815
00:55:54.655 --> 00:55:56.915
If anyone wants to be in this room,

816
00:55:57.750 --> 00:56:02.490
come on in. You're welcome here. We will help you. We will provide assistance. We will,

817
00:56:03.510 --> 00:56:08.315
we'll task you. I get people that show up and they're just like, what can I do? What can I do to help?

818
00:56:08.775 --> 00:56:09.595
And I'm like,

819
00:56:09.895 --> 00:56:14.610
I take that seriously. I go, here's what you can do. I'm so happy that you're here and willing to help.

820
00:56:15.170 --> 00:56:15.670
Right?

821
00:56:16.850 --> 00:56:23.750
So that's the business model is now let's get real specific real quick because that was long winded but important, I think. Let me get real

822
00:56:24.115 --> 00:56:26.775
let me get real specific about, like, what that actually means.

823
00:56:27.235 --> 00:56:37.210
We sell hardware. We will continue to sell hardware because hardware is convenience. Right? People can buy hardware from a hardware store or a computer store anywhere they want and install StartOS.

824
00:56:37.990 --> 00:56:43.210
But we sell it. We we we ship it within 24 hours in almost every case.

825
00:56:43.655 --> 00:56:45.275
It comes in a beautiful box.

826
00:56:45.895 --> 00:56:48.395
The unboxing experience is very elegant.

827
00:56:48.695 --> 00:57:01.795
They plug it in. It just works. If something goes wrong or they have any questions, we have somebody literally standing by. The best box. Yeah. The They just it's in the best box. It's a it's a it's a suction box, but it doesn't suck too hard.

828
00:57:02.335 --> 00:57:07.155
Right? You lift it, and you don't have to, like, fight to get it off. It just sort of lifts slowly.

829
00:57:07.855 --> 00:57:09.395
Lot of care went into that.

830
00:57:10.539 --> 00:57:11.039
So

831
00:57:11.420 --> 00:57:14.640
and if you have any questions or troubles whatsoever, you hop into,

832
00:57:15.180 --> 00:57:24.355
an email or direct chat or a community chat, and we have somebody almost 24 hours a day responding to direct inquiries within, like, 3 minutes. Our support is outrageous.

833
00:57:25.135 --> 00:57:33.460
And people get blown away by that. And that's what they're buying when they buy a device is they're buying that experience, that convenience, and that experience. And we can scale that.

834
00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:35.220
Yeah. Now,

835
00:57:36.160 --> 00:57:41.375
number 2 is if people think that open source software and self hosting

836
00:57:42.155 --> 00:57:50.570
stops with software and data, you don't understand what's going on with the world. Okay? The world is getting smart.

837
00:57:51.109 --> 00:57:51.609
Everything

838
00:57:52.365 --> 00:57:58.625
is going to be connected to the Internet at some point. Okay? We're already seeing absurdities with this with certain appliances,

839
00:57:59.005 --> 00:58:01.345
and people scoff at it. But,

840
00:58:01.830 --> 00:58:11.275
ultimately, it connects My fridge wanted to connect to the Wi Fi. Yeah. And you were just like, no. You're not no. Because, like because it's absurd and because you know, ultimately,

841
00:58:12.615 --> 00:58:18.395
Google's gonna know what temperature your refrigerator is at, and that's an invasion of privacy. They have no business knowing

842
00:58:19.240 --> 00:58:25.980
how cold you like your food because they will use that against you, and they will turn the temperature down, and you'll end up with drinks that are too cold.

843
00:58:26.839 --> 00:58:27.339
So

844
00:58:28.244 --> 00:58:35.065
so but but the point is that everything is getting smart. Okay? The world is going to be connected whether you like it or not. And, eventually,

845
00:58:35.444 --> 00:58:37.464
that's gonna be a huge benefit

846
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:41.340
to efficiencies and productivity. Right? Like, having everything connected

847
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:42.300
where,

848
00:58:42.680 --> 00:58:43.660
you know, your refrigerator's

849
00:58:44.359 --> 00:58:48.035
light or the, the water filter is getting old,

850
00:58:48.415 --> 00:58:52.115
and the computer knows that it's getting old, and you get a notification.

851
00:58:52.610 --> 00:59:02.230
And with one button, you've just ordered the cheapest water filter off of Amazon or some other marketplace that's gonna be delivered tomorrow. And it's just like your life just got a lot

852
00:59:02.725 --> 00:59:05.865
more streamlined as a result of having intelligent devices.

853
00:59:06.565 --> 00:59:09.465
The reason why most people reject the intelligent devices

854
00:59:10.020 --> 00:59:13.240
is because they know somewhere deep down

855
00:59:13.540 --> 00:59:18.845
that it's not their device. Right? They're renting it. They're they're using it by the grace

856
00:59:19.145 --> 00:59:23.405
of the over the tech overlords that if they stop paying their monthly subscription,

857
00:59:23.785 --> 00:59:36.980
the refrigerator will turn off. Yeah. I don't want to say I was just like to turn off my fridge. Yeah. They're they're not I know how often I open it. Yeah. It's about control. It's about control over data, and it's about control over the physical machinery as well.

858
00:59:37.505 --> 00:59:38.005
And

859
00:59:38.944 --> 00:59:39.444
what

860
00:59:39.904 --> 00:59:40.645
we are

861
00:59:41.184 --> 00:59:43.045
envisioning and what StartOS,

862
00:59:43.424 --> 00:59:46.404
as well as a broader strategy that we're taking, enable

863
00:59:47.300 --> 00:59:49.640
is a connected intelligent future

864
00:59:50.100 --> 00:59:55.400
that is entirely within the control and purview of the owners of the devices themselves.

865
00:59:56.404 --> 01:00:02.904
And we think that that will be welcomed by many people, if not everyone, but I would certainly welcome that. Right? I would love to have a

866
01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:10.060
a connected world where all my data exists under my control and is being aggregated and analyzed, and I'm being given recommendations

867
01:00:10.520 --> 01:00:17.355
about when I should run, what I should eat, and all the rest. You get the best of both worlds. Yes. You get the intelligent robot future,

868
01:00:17.735 --> 01:00:23.160
but it's under your control with making you an overlord. You're a powerful powerful sovereign

869
01:00:24.020 --> 01:00:26.760
of yourself and your family, maybe, right,

870
01:00:27.060 --> 01:00:27.960
or your business.

871
01:00:29.035 --> 01:00:32.335
And this is available to everyone and off limits to no one.

872
01:00:32.715 --> 01:00:34.415
And so start 9

873
01:00:34.795 --> 01:00:36.415
does not intend to just sell

874
01:00:36.810 --> 01:00:37.790
servers forever.

875
01:00:38.170 --> 01:00:39.950
Servers were just the first device.

876
01:00:40.650 --> 01:00:42.990
There's always going to be a scenario

877
01:00:43.945 --> 01:00:46.365
where somebody wants to add another device

878
01:00:46.905 --> 01:00:48.045
to their computing

879
01:00:48.905 --> 01:00:49.405
fleet.

880
01:00:49.705 --> 01:00:50.205
Right?

881
01:00:51.280 --> 01:00:57.540
And they want it to play nicely with their server because the server is the backbone of the computing infrastructure,

882
01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:00.580
and they want it to be under their total control.

883
01:01:01.025 --> 01:01:04.485
And so as we come out with new devices into the future,

884
01:01:05.825 --> 01:01:12.340
that is again, you won't have to buy it from us. People will always be able to go get a device somewhere else,

885
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:15.940
flash it with our open source firmware and software,

886
01:01:16.565 --> 01:01:17.625
and make it work,

887
01:01:18.165 --> 01:01:19.385
but empirical

888
01:01:19.685 --> 01:01:26.830
history has demonstrated to us that a very few number of people are actually going to do that. The vast majority of people

889
01:01:27.130 --> 01:01:35.135
want the plug and play elegant experience from the company that they trust and that they know they can reach out to for support and whose community they know

890
01:01:35.675 --> 01:01:40.735
wants them and accepts them. And so we're gonna build a hardware business

891
01:01:41.290 --> 01:01:43.310
around a piece of open source software

892
01:01:43.690 --> 01:01:48.750
that really has no limit to the number of devices that we could come out with into the future.

893
01:01:50.724 --> 01:02:02.250
And we have another one coming very soon, and we haven't made that announcement yet. Tease it? But it's coming. It's the next obvious one. It's the only hint I'll give you. People think, like, they're like,

894
01:02:02.710 --> 01:02:11.075
you know, Dell said this thing on RHR, like, blah blah blah. Like, he's got a big mouth. Like, I have so many secrets in this head. I have so many secrets in this head.

895
01:02:13.215 --> 01:02:13.715
I,

896
01:02:14.520 --> 01:02:15.180
I I

897
01:02:16.200 --> 01:02:17.660
the future's bright freaks.

898
01:02:18.120 --> 01:02:19.820
If if the server

899
01:02:20.120 --> 01:02:22.540
is the backbone of a computing network,

900
01:02:23.295 --> 01:02:24.435
what's the doorway?

901
01:02:24.735 --> 01:02:25.235
Yep.

902
01:02:25.855 --> 01:02:29.555
Okay. That's a good tease. There's a very obvious next device

903
01:02:30.430 --> 01:02:33.410
but it's necessary in order to get all the other devices.

904
01:02:36.430 --> 01:02:37.970
The core of it is

905
01:02:38.445 --> 01:02:39.985
hardware and and,

906
01:02:40.765 --> 01:02:41.745
premium services.

907
01:02:42.205 --> 01:02:46.945
Right? Yes. Like, that's the business model. And I would say that Matt is correct

908
01:02:47.340 --> 01:02:49.600
that he is mostly treated as crazy,

909
01:02:51.180 --> 01:02:54.720
for this this belief that it's gonna be a massive business.

910
01:02:56.035 --> 01:03:02.615
So is 1031. Like, that's why 10 that that if if the freaks are wondering why 1031 exists, that's why 1031 exists.

911
01:03:04.190 --> 01:03:06.770
Is because investment thesis is bonkers.

912
01:03:07.150 --> 01:03:13.250
Yeah. People think they're fucking crazy. Yeah. We're we're the we're the same support for companies like yours,

913
01:03:13.875 --> 01:03:15.015
because we're aligned.

914
01:03:15.714 --> 01:03:18.135
And then for the investors, a lot of times,

915
01:03:19.635 --> 01:03:23.920
we're the crazy ones. I will say that most of our invest well, the ones that actually agree

916
01:03:24.380 --> 01:03:25.599
to be a part of 1031

917
01:03:25.900 --> 01:03:30.319
are usually very aligned with us, or they they come around to it. Yeah.

918
01:03:31.164 --> 01:03:33.345
And I think we'll both make a lot of money,

919
01:03:33.805 --> 01:03:37.025
and the world will also be a better place. And I think that is the beautiful,

920
01:03:38.900 --> 01:03:39.400
synchronicity

921
01:03:39.700 --> 01:03:41.720
that happens. I I think that's sustainable

922
01:03:42.020 --> 01:03:42.520
synchronicity.

923
01:03:43.700 --> 01:03:47.585
Let's let's make the world a better place, and let's make a lot of money while we do it.

924
01:03:48.065 --> 01:03:51.205
Yeah. Because that's sustainable. It doesn't rely on donations.

925
01:03:51.585 --> 01:03:53.445
Well, what's what's cool about

926
01:03:53.905 --> 01:03:55.525
the model, though, too,

927
01:03:55.990 --> 01:04:10.775
is that it is off limits to no one to reimplement the model that I just described. Right? Start 9 has no special position here. There is no start OS. Yeah. There's there's no mode other than our own brand and reputation.

928
01:04:11.155 --> 01:04:19.290
That's it. Basically, the only moat we have is to keep being awesome. Right? As long as we keep crushing in support and we

929
01:04:19.715 --> 01:04:20.935
continue to be honest

930
01:04:21.235 --> 01:04:21.895
and transparent

931
01:04:22.595 --> 01:04:24.375
and, you know, act with integrity,

932
01:04:25.235 --> 01:04:31.069
we can grow a huge business. The second we betray any of our values, the only moat that we had just vanishes overnight.

933
01:04:31.609 --> 01:04:32.349
And so,

934
01:04:33.289 --> 01:04:37.944
I love that incentive structure. I love the fact that our my entire business

935
01:04:38.805 --> 01:04:39.305
depends

936
01:04:39.924 --> 01:04:41.224
on me having integrity.

937
01:04:41.525 --> 01:04:42.905
Yeah. It's so cool

938
01:04:43.250 --> 01:04:44.710
because it's usually the opposite

939
01:04:45.170 --> 01:04:46.550
for a lot of business owners.

940
01:04:47.010 --> 01:04:52.915
Yeah. Success in the business, you have to portray the values. If we do that, we're done because there's no other mode. We have no IP.

941
01:04:54.595 --> 01:04:58.295
Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, like, that I mean, that's the easy way to make money.

942
01:04:58.595 --> 01:05:04.330
It's just like you throw integrity out the window. You you become a rent seeker in the middle. You harvest everyone's data.

943
01:05:05.030 --> 01:05:06.250
You sell it for profit.

944
01:05:06.550 --> 01:05:10.010
Super easy. Yeah. Lock them lock them in. They get sticky.

945
01:05:10.445 --> 01:05:14.945
We Then then go then go lobby some politicians to make it illegal to switch.

946
01:05:15.645 --> 01:05:20.320
Right? Like Is that freaks? We don't do it because it's easy. We do it because we thought it was easy.

947
01:05:21.440 --> 01:05:23.540
I love that quote. I think that's a great quote.

948
01:05:25.200 --> 01:05:26.820
I saw none of your business

949
01:05:27.120 --> 01:05:33.724
in the Nostra chat and the ZapStream chat. By the way, if for some reason you're listening on Twitter or YouTube,

950
01:05:34.184 --> 01:05:38.400
you can join us in that Nostra chat that is is streamed that you can

951
01:05:38.860 --> 01:05:40.400
visibly see at dispatch.com/stream.

952
01:05:41.820 --> 01:05:43.520
You don't need to have a nostril account,

953
01:05:44.005 --> 01:05:47.545
to do it. You can create 1. None of your business raided us again.

954
01:05:48.005 --> 01:05:48.744
A raid,

955
01:05:49.045 --> 01:05:50.664
I'm not a Twitch native person.

956
01:05:50.964 --> 01:05:52.580
It was adopted from Twitch,

957
01:05:53.380 --> 01:05:57.720
is when someone brings their audience from their stream over to our stream.

958
01:05:58.420 --> 01:06:07.915
And this is the second time Nonya has done this. He did it on Wednesday as well. And I said I couldn't place him when he said we met at Pitbullock Boom. I actually placed you last night.

959
01:06:09.494 --> 01:06:11.440
Much love, brother. I appreciate you.

960
01:06:12.640 --> 01:06:14.720
Sorry. It took took me a couple hours to

961
01:06:16.160 --> 01:06:17.700
many hours to place you.

962
01:06:19.454 --> 01:06:24.994
Okay. I'm glad we talked about that. I wanna dive deep. I wanna dive deep a little bit on start OS. We're at,

963
01:06:25.694 --> 01:06:28.319
almost at the hour and 10 mark. K.

964
01:06:30.540 --> 01:06:32.079
Yep. I love it.

965
01:06:32.380 --> 01:06:33.599
It's fucking awesome.

966
01:06:35.500 --> 01:06:41.385
I'm running it, and and my box is, like, 3 feet away from me right now, just humming along.

967
01:06:44.270 --> 01:06:46.850
The the biggest e issue we're seeing

968
01:06:47.230 --> 01:06:51.010
as users right now is is the reliance on Tor,

969
01:06:52.775 --> 01:06:54.155
that if I'm not

970
01:06:54.615 --> 01:06:55.675
on this network,

971
01:06:56.135 --> 01:06:58.235
I have to access it through Tor Browser.

972
01:06:59.175 --> 01:07:00.315
And Tor is,

973
01:07:01.800 --> 01:07:05.820
you know, it is it it's not a great experience. It's like a

974
01:07:06.359 --> 01:07:07.260
it's slow.

975
01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:08.599
You know? It just

976
01:07:09.295 --> 01:07:13.715
I'm just, like, sitting there. My wife's like, why are you on the phone? I'm like, I'm trying to do something

977
01:07:14.735 --> 01:07:15.715
on our note.

978
01:07:17.170 --> 01:07:22.150
Give me a break. And I'm just, like, sitting there and it's, like, updating. It's, like, slowly getting there.

979
01:07:24.085 --> 01:07:26.744
What what what what can we have to look for? How do you

980
01:07:27.365 --> 01:07:30.505
please fix it, sir. Mi Familia. Yeah. We're we're

981
01:07:30.805 --> 01:07:31.865
we're fixing it.

982
01:07:32.910 --> 01:07:35.730
Tor was a great place to start. I'm glad we did it

983
01:07:38.030 --> 01:07:39.410
because it's 0 configuration.

984
01:07:41.115 --> 01:07:43.455
It doesn't require any kind of networking

985
01:07:43.835 --> 01:07:44.335
knowledge

986
01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:45.535
or skills,

987
01:07:46.955 --> 01:07:48.175
no router configurations.

988
01:07:50.010 --> 01:07:54.349
It does NAT punching inherently because it's 2 outbound TCP connections. Yep.

989
01:07:55.369 --> 01:07:57.185
So it just works. Now

990
01:07:57.585 --> 01:07:58.325
works is

991
01:07:58.705 --> 01:07:59.765
a generous word,

992
01:08:00.705 --> 01:08:04.085
but that's not the server's fault. That's just

993
01:08:04.385 --> 01:08:05.925
Tor. Tor is

994
01:08:07.310 --> 01:08:09.970
inherently slow because of its architecture.

995
01:08:10.350 --> 01:08:14.050
Right. Which the trade off there is that it's insanely private and secure.

996
01:08:16.585 --> 01:08:20.845
But it's also under attack, like, 90% of the time. So,

997
01:08:21.864 --> 01:08:23.885
it's just slow. It's really unbearable,

998
01:08:24.505 --> 01:08:25.070
at times.

999
01:08:25.949 --> 01:08:26.690
And so,

1000
01:08:27.310 --> 01:08:27.810
we

1001
01:08:28.829 --> 01:08:33.329
recognize the the need for, you know, better solutions. And, unfortunately,

1002
01:08:33.630 --> 01:08:35.495
those are really hard. Like,

1003
01:08:35.955 --> 01:08:37.335
you start getting into

1004
01:08:38.595 --> 01:08:42.775
somebody else's game and world at that point. Right? Like, the Internet

1005
01:08:43.930 --> 01:08:47.150
over the last few decades has evolved in such a way

1006
01:08:47.610 --> 01:08:49.630
that it really does rely

1007
01:08:50.090 --> 01:08:52.190
on this appeal to authority

1008
01:08:53.295 --> 01:08:53.795
and,

1009
01:08:54.335 --> 01:08:59.635
sort of best not best practices, but sort of agreed upon practices and protocols

1010
01:09:01.080 --> 01:09:02.780
that all depend upon

1011
01:09:03.560 --> 01:09:04.380
third parties

1012
01:09:05.159 --> 01:09:06.060
and trust

1013
01:09:06.440 --> 01:09:07.900
and have privacy implications.

1014
01:09:08.905 --> 01:09:11.724
And so the second you try to play in that world,

1015
01:09:12.025 --> 01:09:13.244
you find this

1016
01:09:14.184 --> 01:09:14.684
horrible

1017
01:09:16.105 --> 01:09:16.605
battle

1018
01:09:17.300 --> 01:09:24.200
of, well, we want to be able to use our computers in the way that we're used to using them, but without all the

1019
01:09:25.364 --> 01:09:26.585
spyware and censorship.

1020
01:09:28.885 --> 01:09:31.864
And it's really hard to do. But we have found

1021
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:35.500
what we consider to be acceptable trade offs

1022
01:09:36.360 --> 01:09:42.514
that we can also message very clearly to the user so that they can choose their own

1023
01:09:43.295 --> 01:09:44.114
threat model,

1024
01:09:44.974 --> 01:09:48.195
and and the strategy that's right for them. So there is a

1025
01:09:49.250 --> 01:09:53.510
a few new networking options coming to StartOS in the near future

1026
01:09:54.450 --> 01:09:57.030
that will allow you to break free

1027
01:09:57.485 --> 01:09:58.785
of the the Tor

1028
01:10:00.445 --> 01:10:01.825
chains with a message

1029
01:10:02.365 --> 01:10:03.185
telling you

1030
01:10:03.725 --> 01:10:06.865
exactly what you're doing and what the trade off is,

1031
01:10:08.040 --> 01:10:12.860
and there's multiple tiers of that. You can sort of go all the way to full blown clear net,

1032
01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:14.540
which will

1033
01:10:14.885 --> 01:10:16.985
make your self hosting experience

1034
01:10:17.844 --> 01:10:20.185
both for you, the person administering

1035
01:10:20.565 --> 01:10:21.225
the server

1036
01:10:21.605 --> 01:10:25.860
and using services on it, but, also, potentially, your audience

1037
01:10:26.240 --> 01:10:32.260
or your employees or your family or your friends who are also accessing resources that are running on your server

1038
01:10:32.795 --> 01:10:35.614
will be able to do so in a way that is

1039
01:10:35.915 --> 01:10:36.415
indistinguishable

1040
01:10:37.355 --> 01:10:41.375
from the way they currently use websites and the Internet. They will have no idea

1041
01:10:41.920 --> 01:10:42.900
that they are accessing

1042
01:10:44.400 --> 01:10:46.420
web apps and other resources

1043
01:10:47.039 --> 01:10:55.135
from a self hosted server run by you. They will just view it as going to a middle, which is, VPN access, and VPN access is, VPN access.

1044
01:11:00.690 --> 01:11:01.190
VPN

1045
01:11:01.730 --> 01:11:04.070
access. And VPN access is,

1046
01:11:04.849 --> 01:11:09.190
really useful because it strikes the right balance of performance and speed

1047
01:11:09.724 --> 01:11:10.224
with

1048
01:11:10.764 --> 01:11:11.585
the privacy,

1049
01:11:13.965 --> 01:11:15.025
they're in. So

1050
01:11:15.804 --> 01:11:16.864
following 036,

1051
01:11:18.500 --> 01:11:19.640
all of your services,

1052
01:11:20.500 --> 01:11:23.480
and I use that lightly because it's really all of your service interfaces,

1053
01:11:23.860 --> 01:11:25.385
because each service has

1054
01:11:25.864 --> 01:11:27.724
multiple interfaces, meaning

1055
01:11:28.505 --> 01:11:29.885
take Bitcoin for example.

1056
01:11:30.344 --> 01:11:35.324
Right? Bitcoin has an RPC interface, which is what your wallets are gonna connect to.

1057
01:11:35.770 --> 01:11:40.430
It has a p two p interface, which is what your node uses to connect with other nodes,

1058
01:11:40.970 --> 01:11:42.910
and it also has a z m q interface,

1059
01:11:43.475 --> 01:11:48.535
which is used by dependent services in those cases to access resources on the Bitcoin node.

1060
01:11:48.915 --> 01:11:52.215
And you could imagine a scenario where Bitcoin even has a user interface,

1061
01:11:52.520 --> 01:12:00.460
like a UI, a web app, where you could, you know, see stats about your node and stuff like that. So Bitcoin is looking at up to 4 interfaces,

1062
01:12:01.975 --> 01:12:18.320
and you don't necessarily want all those interfaces to be, like, bundled together into a single web resource. Right? Like, I don't necessarily want people to have access to my user interface to see my node stats and stuff like that. Right. Possibly even create transactions using the Hot Wallet on the node.

1063
01:12:19.875 --> 01:12:23.655
But I might want them to have access to my RPC interface

1064
01:12:23.955 --> 01:12:24.455
with,

1065
01:12:25.155 --> 01:12:36.825
restricted permissions. Right? A friend who wants to use my node to connect their wallet in a read only way or something like that. Yep. So you have to be able to control these different interfaces of any given service in a very granular

1066
01:12:37.605 --> 01:12:39.385
way. And so starting in 036,

1067
01:12:40.325 --> 01:12:43.385
you will be able to go into every interface of every service

1068
01:12:43.960 --> 01:12:48.380
and select in a granular way kind of how this interface

1069
01:12:49.240 --> 01:12:50.300
is exposed

1070
01:12:50.920 --> 01:12:52.220
or not exposed

1071
01:12:52.825 --> 01:12:53.645
to the Internet.

1072
01:12:54.585 --> 01:13:03.909
You could say, I only want it on Tor because it's super private, and I I'm I'm willing to put up with the slowness because this resource is, like, really, really private, and I need it to be secure.

1073
01:13:04.449 --> 01:13:17.895
Or you could say, I want, you know, my LND node to be on ClearNet so that it's easily discoverable and can connect with peers really well, and I don't really care if I'm exposing my home IP address. But then somebody goes, oh, crap. I really don't wanna expose my home IP address.

1074
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:20.219
I prefer to proxy traffic,

1075
01:13:21.239 --> 01:13:22.460
through some VPS

1076
01:13:23.000 --> 01:13:25.340
reverse proxy that I have on the DigitalOcean

1077
01:13:25.719 --> 01:13:35.125
in the cloud. They use a cloud server just as a proxy. That's And we'll be able to facilitate that as well. So you will have lots of options on how you want to expose

1078
01:13:35.480 --> 01:13:45.340
the things. And it's on an individual services basis? It's on an individual interface of an individual service. It's very granular. You're able to do this. Now it comes with same defaults,

1079
01:13:45.784 --> 01:13:52.445
like when you first install a service. Now I'm mincing a little bit here between what's gonna be available in 036

1080
01:13:53.290 --> 01:14:06.175
through the UI and what's gonna be available in 0 4 o. We are developing these two versions in parallel because Let me hold you to everything you say, and we're gonna get very angry at you. Here's here's deliver. I'll make it very clear, and you can hold me to this.

1081
01:14:06.635 --> 01:14:08.575
Everything I'm describing right now

1082
01:14:08.955 --> 01:14:10.975
is possible in 036,

1083
01:14:12.340 --> 01:14:14.520
but some of it will require you

1084
01:14:15.140 --> 01:14:21.455
to use SSH and go in and do it the the sort of dev dev hat way. And we're doing that intentionally

1085
01:14:22.474 --> 01:14:30.940
because these are so advanced and so so complicated, these features, that that we actually don't want everyone doing it at first through the UI. We want the more,

1086
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:34.140
competent and and and adventurous people

1087
01:14:34.645 --> 01:14:43.304
to get in there through the command line and try some of these things so that we can flesh out the bugs so that we can make the u so that we can make the UX seamless.

1088
01:14:43.640 --> 01:14:46.380
And then in 0 4 o, all of these features

1089
01:14:46.920 --> 01:14:49.020
get brought to the user interface,

1090
01:14:50.200 --> 01:14:51.420
so that a normal

1091
01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:52.220
nontechnical

1092
01:14:52.600 --> 01:14:56.125
person can can have access to them, but only after they're stable.

1093
01:14:57.385 --> 01:14:58.125
Got it.

1094
01:14:59.385 --> 01:15:02.764
I like that. That makes sense to me. We'll be your guinea pigs.

1095
01:15:06.480 --> 01:15:07.380
I I mean,

1096
01:15:07.840 --> 01:15:12.865
Steve Lee said this the other day, like, a slow and steady approach. I like the slow and steady approach,

1097
01:15:13.745 --> 01:15:18.625
that you guys are he didn't say it about you guys. He said that about Bitcoin Core, but I

1098
01:15:19.665 --> 01:15:22.850
I'm just gonna translate that to you guys, and I don't like that approach.

1099
01:15:23.570 --> 01:15:25.670
I mean, it's how you grow something

1100
01:15:26.690 --> 01:15:31.510
that lasts. You can get big fast, but it's not on a solid foundation.

1101
01:15:32.585 --> 01:15:35.005
So Carlos is asking in the live chat,

1102
01:15:35.784 --> 01:15:36.685
when 036.

1103
01:15:38.105 --> 01:15:43.070
It's in testing. It's in testing. It runs. It exists. It works,

1104
01:15:43.770 --> 01:15:47.915
but it's in testing. Okay. I can't provide an ETA for launch.

1105
01:15:48.315 --> 01:15:50.815
Okay. Well, I think that's gonna be a massive,

1106
01:15:53.275 --> 01:15:57.810
that's gonna be a massive improvement in in terms of, like, actual usability of these

1107
01:15:58.610 --> 01:16:01.110
these home servers or office servers.

1108
01:16:03.730 --> 01:16:07.410
It actually makes it fairly usable by businesses at that point too because

1109
01:16:07.835 --> 01:16:09.934
every business should be running their own.

1110
01:16:10.474 --> 01:16:12.415
Small businesses, especially. I mean, they're

1111
01:16:12.795 --> 01:16:25.020
they don't have necessarily the the funds and expertise to host their own, you know, servers and pay Linux's admins tons of money to maintain them. And so what do they do? They just outsource it to 20 different SaaS companies.

1112
01:16:25.545 --> 01:16:28.844
The average bill for a small business of 20 people,

1113
01:16:29.305 --> 01:16:31.885
their monthly software bill is between $810,000

1114
01:16:32.665 --> 01:16:33.324
a month.

1115
01:16:33.890 --> 01:16:36.870
It's a meaningful cost center for a for a small business.

1116
01:16:37.650 --> 01:16:39.430
Dude, we're so we're like

1117
01:16:40.210 --> 01:16:46.925
I believe in the dream. I believe in the dream. My dad's small business, though, is, like, 1 phishing email away from just destruction. So

1118
01:16:48.045 --> 01:16:49.824
So follow 0 36.

1119
01:16:50.284 --> 01:16:53.369
Long day. I'm gonna be able to and will be

1120
01:16:53.750 --> 01:16:55.369
going into small businesses

1121
01:16:55.829 --> 01:16:57.690
starting in the Greater Bitcoin space

1122
01:16:58.555 --> 01:17:02.895
and convincing them to slowly but surely drop their SaaS subscriptions

1123
01:17:03.675 --> 01:17:07.135
and cloud service providers in favor of their own server

1124
01:17:08.030 --> 01:17:09.329
or fleet of servers

1125
01:17:09.869 --> 01:17:16.690
that are being used to, you know, back each other up and make sure that there's no downtime and that data that data loss, never occurs

1126
01:17:17.265 --> 01:17:19.045
to run their business. So, currently,

1127
01:17:19.665 --> 01:17:23.205
just to prove to people that 036 is, you know, sort of working,

1128
01:17:24.230 --> 01:17:24.730
start

1129
01:17:25.350 --> 01:17:26.970
9 hosts a significant

1130
01:17:27.510 --> 01:17:28.810
amount of our, like,

1131
01:17:29.910 --> 01:17:30.970
internal business,

1132
01:17:32.070 --> 01:17:33.050
software needs

1133
01:17:33.395 --> 01:17:38.534
on a couple of server peers. We have 2 server peers, and we run almost everything on it. For instance, if you go to blog.start9.com,

1134
01:17:40.360 --> 01:17:43.180
that is a clear net website blog

1135
01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:45.580
running on a start 9 server peer.

1136
01:17:46.520 --> 01:17:47.820
Is it running 036?

1137
01:17:48.745 --> 01:17:53.405
It is running a thing that doesn't exist. It's it's not 036. It's not 0351.

1138
01:17:53.705 --> 01:17:54.525
It is a

1139
01:17:54.985 --> 01:18:00.000
it is the stuff that will eventually be 036. It's pretty quick. It loads really quick.

1140
01:18:00.540 --> 01:18:01.040
Yeah.

1141
01:18:02.885 --> 01:18:06.505
Okay. I'm just gonna go through we'll just go through my wish list. Okay.

1142
01:18:07.925 --> 01:18:11.470
Okay. So I have I have I have this box. It's

1143
01:18:12.270 --> 01:18:13.010
it's awesome.

1144
01:18:15.550 --> 01:18:22.405
It's way overkill. It's like probably the most overkill home server you can manage. What do you got on it? I mean,

1145
01:18:22.945 --> 01:18:26.085
it's like It's a Ryzen 9 16 core

1146
01:18:26.785 --> 01:18:27.285
Yeah.

1147
01:18:29.310 --> 01:18:34.849
Processor. I got an NVIDIA GPU in there. K. And, it's it's running coreboot.

1148
01:18:36.190 --> 01:18:39.725
So I, like, tried to open source the firmware as much as possible.

1149
01:18:41.065 --> 01:18:42.844
It's got 32 gigs of RAM.

1150
01:18:43.705 --> 01:18:49.190
Okay. But here's here's the wish list. Right? I only have a 2 terabyte NVMe

1151
01:18:49.570 --> 01:18:51.110
drive in there. Yeah.

1152
01:18:53.010 --> 01:18:55.095
First of all, probably not enough.

1153
01:18:56.375 --> 01:18:58.475
Okay. I'm gonna probably have to upgrade

1154
01:18:59.015 --> 01:19:00.875
the size of the main drive.

1155
01:19:01.175 --> 01:19:09.840
And then second of all, like, I would really like it has multiple drive bays, obviously. I would I would ultimately like to have it in a

1156
01:19:10.725 --> 01:19:12.665
a raid esque configuration

1157
01:19:13.045 --> 01:19:14.905
where a second drive so

1158
01:19:15.365 --> 01:19:17.340
I I wanna increase the drive space,

1159
01:19:18.540 --> 01:19:21.040
and I want to have it in a RAID configuration,

1160
01:19:22.940 --> 01:19:25.679
where it bat it's, like, automatically just backing up.

1161
01:19:26.115 --> 01:19:28.615
I I don't wanna lose my child photos, Matt.

1162
01:19:29.075 --> 01:19:32.615
Like, I just I I I want and, like, I promised my wife

1163
01:19:33.075 --> 01:19:35.175
You would. Photos would not be lost,

1164
01:19:36.070 --> 01:19:37.690
and then they will not be harvested.

1165
01:19:39.349 --> 01:19:43.769
So what it what are the thoughts there? I I believe under the current configuration,

1166
01:19:44.255 --> 01:19:48.275
I could I could do the backup process Yeah. Like an external drive,

1167
01:19:48.655 --> 01:19:50.355
upgrade to a larger drive.

1168
01:19:51.295 --> 01:19:52.900
But is start OS gonna

1169
01:19:53.460 --> 01:19:57.800
does I I believe it doesn't currently recognize multiple drives. No.

1170
01:19:58.340 --> 01:20:03.025
So here's here's the options today when it comes to drive space and upgrading.

1171
01:20:03.805 --> 01:20:05.345
If the drive is not dead,

1172
01:20:06.045 --> 01:20:09.909
like, if your drive has not died, okay, assuming it's working fine,

1173
01:20:10.370 --> 01:20:16.310
you can upgrade to a larger drive by transferring the data over. You do not need to restore from backup.

1174
01:20:16.695 --> 01:20:22.635
Okay. Right? So it's a it's a much faster experience because it doesn't have to decrypt. The backups are all encrypted.

1175
01:20:23.500 --> 01:20:27.120
So if it's a lot of data, that adds a significant amount of time to the process.

1176
01:20:27.500 --> 01:20:28.000
Right.

1177
01:20:28.380 --> 01:20:32.400
So if you know in advance that you're gonna upgrade your drive, you can

1178
01:20:32.775 --> 01:20:38.635
take out the one that's in there, put the one in that you want, or, like you said, yours has multiple bays. You just put the new one in.

1179
01:20:39.710 --> 01:20:40.690
You'll reflash,

1180
01:20:41.230 --> 01:20:47.889
start OS. So you basically reinstall the OS. And then during initial setup, we have a a button that says transfer.

1181
01:20:48.745 --> 01:21:04.110
So rather than fresh setup, you select transfer, you select the drive that, you know, you're transferring from, you select the drive that you're transferring to, you hit go, it transfers it. And then when you're done, you can take the old one out, and you're good to go. Boom. Bigger drive. Got it. Boom. Bigger drive. That's that's the easiest way to do that. Already exists. Now

1182
01:21:04.495 --> 01:21:05.635
as long as StartOS

1183
01:21:05.935 --> 01:21:14.110
sees the drive as a single drive, it'll work. Meaning, you can do hardware RAID today. You can set up a hardware RAID configuration

1184
01:21:15.050 --> 01:21:16.750
and plug it into your server,

1185
01:21:17.050 --> 01:21:28.275
and StartOS will just see that as one drive. It'll be like, oh, here's my drive. It has no idea that there's actually multiple drives being Okay. You know, aggregated beneath the hood because it sees it as one.

1186
01:21:29.080 --> 01:21:42.275
There's a lot of people that hate hardware RAID and prefer software RAID and that it's better, and we don't support that right now. We will. We will support software RAID such that you can plug multiple drives in and use them in any RAID configuration that you want.

1187
01:21:42.815 --> 01:21:43.315
Secondly

1188
01:21:43.950 --> 01:21:47.550
036 is not gonna have that. No. No. No. No. 036 doesn't have that.

1189
01:21:48.350 --> 01:21:57.284
Don't put that on my plate right now. Okay. I just did, kinda. But okay. Yeah. It's it's it's there's a ticket for it. It's just not making it into 036. Okay.

1190
01:21:58.385 --> 01:21:58.885
Secondly,

1191
01:21:59.185 --> 01:22:14.885
we we do have it such that we're going to allow for just extending drives. So say, like, you have a 2 terabyte drive in there and you're running out of space, you'll be able to just take another 2 terabyte or a 4 terabyte and plug it in and go into your settings and just add that drive

1192
01:22:15.824 --> 01:22:16.565
to your

1193
01:22:16.945 --> 01:22:18.485
total drive space,

1194
01:22:19.220 --> 01:22:23.240
and starter bus will now tell you that you have 6 terabytes. And Does 0 36 have that?

1195
01:22:23.620 --> 01:22:27.960
No. Okay. I've it's important. I'm I'm asking. I have to All the drive

1196
01:22:28.375 --> 01:22:31.355
extensibility stuff is not in 036. Okay. So

1197
01:22:31.735 --> 01:22:33.114
because because quite frankly,

1198
01:22:33.895 --> 01:22:43.570
it just isn't in that high of demand because most people are not at the point where they're filling up 4 terabyte drives, which is what we offer, if devices that we sell. Like,

1199
01:22:43.950 --> 01:22:50.045
today, if this is a problem, just get a bigger drive. We will solve it in a more comprehensive manner later

1200
01:22:50.825 --> 01:22:52.605
when we have a minute to breathe.

1201
01:22:53.785 --> 01:22:54.685
Okay. So,

1202
01:22:56.460 --> 01:23:02.480
yeah, I think that's it on the drive front. Okay. That's pretty good. Freaks, I mean, you're in the live chat. If you have any questions,

1203
01:23:02.940 --> 01:23:03.679
for Matt

1204
01:23:03.980 --> 01:23:04.480
or

1205
01:23:05.125 --> 01:23:08.585
future requests that are not in 036, like, feel free to

1206
01:23:09.284 --> 01:23:14.744
put them in the comments. Matt, I mean, so okay. Those are the 2 biggest things for me is

1207
01:23:15.730 --> 01:23:20.390
I love hate Tor. I it's like a horrible relationship we have.

1208
01:23:22.775 --> 01:23:27.355
I someone just asked when SimpleX support. I believe it's already in the service.

1209
01:23:28.055 --> 01:23:29.435
Yeah. SimpleX is

1210
01:23:30.230 --> 01:23:32.650
amazing and well supported by StartOS.

1211
01:23:35.510 --> 01:23:39.795
But those are my those are my 2 main things. It's, like, first of all, like, I have

1212
01:23:40.815 --> 01:23:42.995
horrible experience with drive failure.

1213
01:23:45.540 --> 01:23:51.000
Yeah. It happened. I'm, like, constantly thinking about it. I have horrible experience with drive filling up,

1214
01:23:52.420 --> 01:23:57.245
which so, like, even though, like, honestly, the 4 terabyte is, like, really overkill.

1215
01:23:58.505 --> 01:24:04.780
I'm not even close to filling up the 2 terabyte yet, but, like, I'm still thinking about it. Right? Like, I I gotta a course, it's coming.

1216
01:24:06.520 --> 01:24:07.260
And then

1217
01:24:07.719 --> 01:24:17.425
just like the auto backups, like, having just, like, a secondary drive there is huge. And, yeah, I love the information to make it more. Though. So that is so automatic backups

1218
01:24:18.445 --> 01:24:20.285
is a different feature than,

1219
01:24:21.030 --> 01:24:23.510
having, like, a a RAID setup Okay.

1220
01:24:23.990 --> 01:24:27.610
Or even just extending the drive. Right? So what is that?

1221
01:24:27.915 --> 01:24:30.815
So currently, the way that you make a backup on StartOS is

1222
01:24:31.355 --> 01:24:33.055
you plug in the drive to the device,

1223
01:24:33.594 --> 01:24:38.719
you go into your settings, you click backup, you select the services you wanna back up, and it backs them up in an encrypted way.

1224
01:24:39.659 --> 01:24:42.239
You could also create a backup over the air

1225
01:24:42.699 --> 01:24:48.055
to another device on your home network. You don't need to plug in a physical drive into the device.

1226
01:24:48.435 --> 01:25:01.180
You could create a backup of your server onto your laptop or desktop or any computer on the network. It could be a a Synology NAS or a TrueNAS device or whatever you have. Okay. And that all works great, and we have guides for all of that.

1227
01:25:01.560 --> 01:25:07.764
But it does require you to go in and click a button. You have to, like, go in and go back up, and you have to do it.

1228
01:25:08.145 --> 01:25:10.885
Which you never do. You might do it every month

1229
01:25:11.239 --> 01:25:24.095
until the time it fails, and then it's, like, 8 months previous. You you always forget when it fails. Yeah. And it's so critical to do backups. Like, the idea of running a server or self hosting without creating

1230
01:25:24.475 --> 01:25:24.975
frequent

1231
01:25:25.355 --> 01:25:26.975
quality encrypted backups

1232
01:25:27.659 --> 01:25:29.119
is is like it's it's,

1233
01:25:29.500 --> 01:25:38.844
you know, skydiving without a parachute. You're you're gonna get hurt. You are going to lose data. You're gonna lose money. You're going to get pissed, and then you're never gonna go back. So you gotta do backups,

1234
01:25:39.465 --> 01:25:53.925
which, by the way, like, for anyone listening, StartOS is the only system that has a backups feature. Like, you cannot back up your data on a numeral without doing it manually on a service by service basis, which means you're never gonna do it.

1235
01:25:54.864 --> 01:26:04.260
So having an OS that has a backup feature seems to me to be table stakes. Like, we would never have considered launching without a such a critical

1236
01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:08.420
feature such as backups. But, anyway, what's coming next for us,

1237
01:26:08.995 --> 01:26:13.175
this will be in 0 four o, not an o three six. I was gonna ask. It's it's already

1238
01:26:13.715 --> 01:26:17.575
largely coded for 0 four o, but it's not coming in 0 three six,

1239
01:26:17.960 --> 01:26:19.900
is you will be able to

1240
01:26:20.360 --> 01:26:20.860
schedule

1241
01:26:22.280 --> 01:26:23.340
automated backups

1242
01:26:24.200 --> 01:26:38.710
to any local or remote target that you want. So for instance and it'll be like creating a calendar event. That's the UX we're going for is you'll create a calendar a recurring calendar event. You'll be like, every day at 2 AM,

1243
01:26:39.250 --> 01:26:40.230
I want my,

1244
01:26:41.250 --> 01:26:42.390
LND node

1245
01:26:42.770 --> 01:26:46.790
to be backed up to my other start 9 server in another state.

1246
01:26:47.765 --> 01:26:48.425
I want

1247
01:26:48.965 --> 01:26:50.105
my CLN node

1248
01:26:50.405 --> 01:26:56.560
to be backed up to Google Drive at 4 AM every day, etcetera, etcetera. You will be able to Oh, it sounds great.

1249
01:26:57.360 --> 01:26:58.420
Encrypted backups

1250
01:26:59.200 --> 01:26:59.700
of

1251
01:27:00.160 --> 01:27:02.395
your server in a very granular,

1252
01:27:02.695 --> 01:27:03.195
customizable

1253
01:27:03.575 --> 01:27:04.075
way,

1254
01:27:05.335 --> 01:27:10.155
as frequently as you like, and they'll just run. And if one of them fails for some reason,

1255
01:27:11.699 --> 01:27:14.599
that'll be apparent in the UI that a backup failed.

1256
01:27:14.980 --> 01:27:20.325
And in o in o, 4 o, you also will be able to send yourself an email notifying you,

1257
01:27:20.885 --> 01:27:22.885
that it failed as well. What is,

1258
01:27:24.725 --> 01:27:25.945
I'm gonna put you

1259
01:27:26.805 --> 01:27:32.540
yeah. I I agree with the average Gary, like, bronze age game dog asked, he said the Starlink,

1260
01:27:33.800 --> 01:27:34.300
router,

1261
01:27:35.080 --> 01:27:39.845
doesn't give him dot local access. I mean, the Starlink router is just crap. Like, just use

1262
01:27:40.325 --> 01:27:44.905
you can still use Starlink with a different router. You can get a downstream router, but also,

1263
01:27:45.285 --> 01:27:46.325
we are getting rid of the,

1264
01:27:47.179 --> 01:27:53.040
the unique dot locals for services in 036. Those will go away. Why? How how do I access it through IP?

1265
01:27:53.820 --> 01:28:05.170
Yeah. Well, no. You'll still you'll still have the primary dot local. I got a great random dot local. I'm not The services will exist at a port now. So instead of having, you know, some random pubkey.local

1266
01:28:05.869 --> 01:28:11.730
for one of your, you know, Bitcoin interfaces Yep. It'll be the primary dot local of the server

1267
01:28:12.035 --> 01:28:13.415
and then a custom port.

1268
01:28:13.795 --> 01:28:20.855
Okay. And you could use the IP in the port. The reason for this is, 1, it it is a it's a necessity for VPN

1269
01:28:21.330 --> 01:28:22.950
access and remote access to the home because VPNs don't support

1270
01:28:23.410 --> 01:28:27.350
Avahi aliasing. So the way that we implemented these, like, weird dot locals that you see for every service,

1271
01:28:31.085 --> 01:28:33.905
is it's a it's a piece of software called Avahi,

1272
01:28:35.165 --> 01:28:36.945
and it it it's an MDNS.

1273
01:28:38.660 --> 01:28:45.000
It's a software that enables m d advanced MDNS stuff. MDNS is dot locals. Okay?

1274
01:28:46.315 --> 01:28:56.080
But what Avahi enables you to do is do a, MDNS aliasing. So, like, basically, all of the m d, dot locals that you see on your start OS server

1275
01:28:57.020 --> 01:29:00.400
are actually all just aliases for the primary one,

1276
01:29:00.700 --> 01:29:05.275
but then they do host name resolution in the same way that, like, you know, something.com

1277
01:29:05.735 --> 01:29:08.875
does host name resolution. There's essentially a lookup, and it's

1278
01:29:09.335 --> 01:29:10.705
it's nasty. And,

1279
01:29:11.790 --> 01:29:13.170
we thought it was clever,

1280
01:29:13.470 --> 01:29:13.970
and

1281
01:29:14.510 --> 01:29:16.130
that was before we realized

1282
01:29:16.430 --> 01:29:21.215
that it was 1 like, the software itself, Avahi, as a piece of open source

1283
01:29:21.695 --> 01:29:24.435
software is crap. Like, it's largely unmaintained.

1284
01:29:25.135 --> 01:29:25.955
It's ancient.

1285
01:29:26.494 --> 01:29:29.235
It just doesn't work very well. There's bugs.

1286
01:29:29.970 --> 01:29:36.870
And 2, MDNS aliasing is not supported by almost any VPN provider. In fact, we're not aware of one that supports it. And so,

1287
01:29:37.905 --> 01:29:41.125
it prohibits VPN access, which has been a huge, like,

1288
01:29:42.305 --> 01:29:47.050
crutch for us. You know, it's been a big drawback for people, and we're fixing it. 036

1289
01:29:48.070 --> 01:29:49.610
fixes it. Awesome.

1290
01:29:50.150 --> 01:29:51.130
So, I mean,

1291
01:29:52.470 --> 01:29:53.690
when when 036,

1292
01:29:54.065 --> 01:29:56.485
You said it's in testing. Are is it 2 weeks?

1293
01:29:56.945 --> 01:29:59.125
Is it 4 weeks? No. I don't do that anymore.

1294
01:29:59.824 --> 01:30:08.220
You're not you're not going to? I can't. No. On the spot. Every time I've done that, it's been false and people get angry. Okay. Matt's saying it's gonna be 3 weeks.

1295
01:30:09.560 --> 01:30:21.510
Not not quite 2 weeks, not quite a month. 2 weeks is the is the joke that we make to everyone who asks because it's always 2 weeks. It's gonna be so 3, I feel like, is the nice conservative we added a week.

1296
01:30:23.010 --> 01:30:26.390
I and, Matt, what are you most excited about with 036?

1297
01:30:28.605 --> 01:30:30.305
Besides the networking stuff?

1298
01:30:30.765 --> 01:30:32.385
Besides what we already talked about?

1299
01:30:33.325 --> 01:30:37.830
Honestly Am I missing something? Like, what is Oh, I mean, so so so with 0 36 proper,

1300
01:30:38.210 --> 01:30:45.135
it's that. But what I'm actually most excited about is to get past 0 36 because 0 36 was the the, like,

1301
01:30:45.915 --> 01:30:48.655
dirty work hard stuff we had to do

1302
01:30:49.034 --> 01:30:54.190
before we can do the really fun stuff with 0 4 o. 0 4 o is where I'm excited because 04

1303
01:30:54.889 --> 01:31:02.110
o doesn't just take all these wonderful features and bring them to the forefront. It's actually Oforo completely redesigns the UI.

1304
01:31:02.675 --> 01:31:05.954
So it's it's cosmetic change as well. 0 4 o,

1305
01:31:07.074 --> 01:31:09.014
is a different app. It it looks

1306
01:31:09.554 --> 01:31:11.969
it's been redesigned from scratch. We we rewrote

1307
01:31:12.349 --> 01:31:13.650
the front end code base,

1308
01:31:15.070 --> 01:31:16.849
and that's that's done

1309
01:31:17.469 --> 01:31:19.889
ironically enough. The the o four zero redesign

1310
01:31:20.190 --> 01:31:27.925
and code rewrite is is done. What do you think, like, the ETA for o four o is not like It won't be that far behind o three six. Right? So,

1311
01:31:28.650 --> 01:31:34.989
compared to how long 0 36 took, we've been working on 0 36 for almost a year. Oh, I have another question for you, Matt.

1312
01:31:36.965 --> 01:31:38.345
People like apps

1313
01:31:39.205 --> 01:31:40.505
Yeah. On their phone,

1314
01:31:40.885 --> 01:31:43.225
and people don't have computers anymore.

1315
01:31:44.120 --> 01:31:45.820
I mean, they don't have servers either,

1316
01:31:46.200 --> 01:31:49.020
but they'll get a server without getting a computer.

1317
01:31:49.800 --> 01:31:57.715
And, like, currently, you have to go into the web browser and connect to your start 9 to, like, set it up and stuff. Is there any thoughts on,

1318
01:31:58.735 --> 01:32:03.760
like, downloading the start 9 app, like, scanning a QR code to, like, start

1319
01:32:05.100 --> 01:32:12.945
your Start OS experience. Like, is that a is that in the cards? Is that something like, people like apps, you know, just, like, you download the app, scan to the network.

1320
01:32:14.125 --> 01:32:23.350
We had it. We killed it. Okay. That's where we were, 3 years ago. We had an app. It was called the setup app. Okay. Available on the App Store and the Google Play Store,

1321
01:32:23.890 --> 01:32:26.310
and you used it to set up your server.

1322
01:32:28.155 --> 01:32:29.535
Apple cut us off.

1323
01:32:30.155 --> 01:32:33.775
Yeah. They'll do that. Yeah. No. Apple Apple banned us

1324
01:32:34.075 --> 01:32:34.575
because

1325
01:32:35.115 --> 01:32:37.215
the app was, in their opinion,

1326
01:32:38.030 --> 01:32:38.530
administering

1327
01:32:38.909 --> 01:32:45.090
a remote device that was downloading software that didn't come from the App Store. They're kinda correct. Their terms and conditions.

1328
01:32:46.255 --> 01:32:53.554
We fought them on it by saying, like, wait. Woah. Woah. Woah. Woah. We're not allowing people to download software to their phone

1329
01:32:54.335 --> 01:32:57.410
from something that's not the App Store. We're

1330
01:32:58.190 --> 01:33:07.175
we're letting people use an app to download something to their server, which is not competing with Apple in any way, and they they they almost just didn't get it. It was really, really hard

1331
01:33:07.555 --> 01:33:11.655
for their team to, like, understand what we were saying because it's so abnormal.

1332
01:33:13.670 --> 01:33:19.449
And so they didn't wanna fuck with it. They weren't gonna make an exception for us. I I tried to escalate it, and they didn't wanna hear it. So

1333
01:33:21.465 --> 01:33:28.525
So we is We circumvented them. We do everything through the web now. The web is the only safe place to operate. App stores are vulnerable.

1334
01:33:28.825 --> 01:33:30.125
Fair enough. I agree.

1335
01:33:31.100 --> 01:33:34.000
Oh, I actually do have one more question before we wrap.

1336
01:33:36.060 --> 01:33:38.585
So to me, like, the way I look at it is, like,

1337
01:33:39.705 --> 01:33:46.170
this rides or dies on start OS. It rides or dies on the open source stack that anyone can run,

1338
01:33:46.570 --> 01:33:47.550
anyone can distribute,

1339
01:33:47.850 --> 01:33:49.310
anyone can try to monetize.

1340
01:33:53.370 --> 01:33:54.969
What are your thoughts on

1341
01:33:56.155 --> 01:34:00.014
and in this current regulatory environment, it also comes down to a liability thing.

1342
01:34:01.114 --> 01:34:03.375
Like, the more services that are

1343
01:34:03.760 --> 01:34:07.699
maintained and distributed outside of start 9, the better,

1344
01:34:08.480 --> 01:34:13.425
because we get more powerful stuff that you guys might not necessarily wanna be involved in.

1345
01:34:14.704 --> 01:34:20.085
What are your thoughts on, like, increasing open source contributors in terms of the start OS ecosystem,

1346
01:34:21.700 --> 01:34:26.040
packages and maintaining packages and releasing these services out to the public.

1347
01:34:27.380 --> 01:34:28.840
How do we how do we,

1348
01:34:31.175 --> 01:34:31.835
you know,

1349
01:34:32.775 --> 01:34:35.655
how do how do we jump start that? How do we make that

1350
01:34:37.670 --> 01:34:46.945
I want everything. I want I start OS is great, and there's so many services that I can run. I want more. There's not enough. Like, how do we increase that?

1351
01:34:47.665 --> 01:34:48.165
Yeah.

1352
01:34:49.105 --> 01:34:50.724
Well, we need help on all fronts.

1353
01:34:51.824 --> 01:34:56.885
Service packaging is definitely what I would call, like, a, you know, a front, a battleground for us.

1354
01:34:58.420 --> 01:35:01.159
And I've been putting quite a bit of pressure on,

1355
01:35:02.179 --> 01:35:06.095
upstream development teams and individuals to take responsibility

1356
01:35:06.475 --> 01:35:10.175
for their own software on StartOS, right, just like they would for

1357
01:35:10.475 --> 01:35:13.690
Windows and Mac and iOS and Android. It's like

1358
01:35:14.330 --> 01:35:16.270
when you build a piece of software, you

1359
01:35:16.730 --> 01:35:17.949
you have to do certain

1360
01:35:18.330 --> 01:35:20.510
specialty things like compilations

1361
01:35:20.890 --> 01:35:22.190
and forms or whatever

1362
01:35:22.555 --> 01:35:23.455
to get distribution

1363
01:35:23.915 --> 01:35:27.455
on different platforms and to different devices. And,

1364
01:35:28.395 --> 01:35:32.990
StartOS is no different in that respect except that we're a lot smaller and not everyone sees value

1365
01:35:33.690 --> 01:35:34.990
in garnering distribution,

1366
01:35:35.850 --> 01:35:40.385
to node runners. But we're going to increase that that over time. Like, we're going to

1367
01:35:40.845 --> 01:35:42.625
gain more influence and leverage

1368
01:35:43.085 --> 01:35:48.465
as we become more popular and we have more users. People will want distribution on starter less. We're already

1369
01:35:48.770 --> 01:35:49.510
seeing that.

1370
01:35:50.369 --> 01:36:00.475
And so I'm starting to get into a position where I can push back when someone's just like, well, I'm not I'm not putting it on there. I'm like, well, then you're not gonna have it because I don't have time to do it. I don't have the resources

1371
01:36:01.415 --> 01:36:02.315
to pay people

1372
01:36:02.670 --> 01:36:03.330
to package

1373
01:36:03.710 --> 01:36:08.449
open source software for an open source OS that in no way drives the it's it's just like

1374
01:36:08.750 --> 01:36:10.290
start 9 in a way

1375
01:36:11.115 --> 01:36:13.855
feels very alone right now as, like,

1376
01:36:14.315 --> 01:36:15.055
a company

1377
01:36:15.515 --> 01:36:24.650
Yeah. Because our business model is not StartOS. Our business model is not these open source packages that people want to run on StartOS. Our business model is

1378
01:36:25.350 --> 01:36:27.290
plug and play devices and support

1379
01:36:27.805 --> 01:36:28.545
around these

1380
01:36:29.085 --> 01:36:38.580
things. But we find ourselves like, if there's nothing to run, if the OS doesn't work and there's nothing to run on it, then we obviously can't sell plug and play devices. So we have an incentive as a company

1381
01:36:39.040 --> 01:36:40.340
to fund and promote,

1382
01:36:41.280 --> 01:36:42.660
the development of StartOS

1383
01:36:43.435 --> 01:36:46.255
and of services service packages for StartOS,

1384
01:36:46.955 --> 01:36:52.199
but we are quite frankly alone in that effort right now. We've had a few people spin up,

1385
01:36:52.760 --> 01:36:53.580
crowd funds,

1386
01:36:54.440 --> 01:36:57.820
for particular services, like public pool, I believe.

1387
01:36:58.395 --> 01:37:10.400
Someone spun up and was like, hey. We need someone to package this. And they came to us, and I was like, I wish. I fucking wish. I don't have the resources. We're we're not some, like, big monster tech giant company

1388
01:37:10.700 --> 01:37:14.560
profitable and all the rest. We're a bootstrap startup that penny pinches at every corner.

1389
01:37:14.940 --> 01:37:17.925
And so I can't just bring on more service packagers

1390
01:37:18.625 --> 01:37:20.324
to help build out this ecosystem.

1391
01:37:22.945 --> 01:37:25.125
So, you know, we'll do what we can,

1392
01:37:25.510 --> 01:37:31.930
which is quite a bit, and we will continue to to do what we can. And, hopefully, we get really profitable and can and do even more.

1393
01:37:32.390 --> 01:37:43.375
But, really, it's up to the the best leverage play that we and the greater StartOS and open source community has to get more services running on StartOS

1394
01:37:44.099 --> 01:37:53.480
is to pressure the teams themselves that build the software Yep. To go through the exercise of packaging it up. But in the absence of that,

1395
01:37:53.925 --> 01:37:55.545
you know, we gotta we gotta,

1396
01:37:57.365 --> 01:37:57.865
fund

1397
01:37:58.405 --> 01:37:58.905
individuals

1398
01:37:59.285 --> 01:38:00.665
and community members

1399
01:38:00.965 --> 01:38:03.540
who are willing to take it on,

1400
01:38:04.800 --> 01:38:07.060
and act as that middle man between

1401
01:38:07.920 --> 01:38:08.420
StartOS

1402
01:38:08.995 --> 01:38:12.295
and the upstream development team and and make the package.

1403
01:38:13.635 --> 01:38:15.094
So it's it's it's politics.

1404
01:38:15.554 --> 01:38:15.955
It's,

1405
01:38:16.810 --> 01:38:17.630
it's networking,

1406
01:38:17.930 --> 01:38:18.489
and it's,

1407
01:38:18.890 --> 01:38:19.790
time and pressure

1408
01:38:20.570 --> 01:38:22.510
and, and ease ease.

1409
01:38:22.810 --> 01:38:26.475
Right? So 036 I I didn't mention this during the whole call today.

1410
01:38:26.955 --> 01:38:27.455
036

1411
01:38:28.155 --> 01:38:30.415
introduces an entirely new,

1412
01:38:31.675 --> 01:38:34.575
SDK, software development kit for packaging

1413
01:38:35.210 --> 01:38:38.989
services for StartOS, and it blows the old one away. Like, we,

1414
01:38:39.530 --> 01:38:40.270
in 036,

1415
01:38:41.130 --> 01:38:44.190
someone will be able to take an existing package off the shelf

1416
01:38:44.545 --> 01:38:46.245
and get it bundled for StartOS

1417
01:38:46.865 --> 01:38:48.385
in a far,

1418
01:38:48.785 --> 01:38:51.365
with far less effort than was previously needed,

1419
01:38:51.989 --> 01:39:00.809
and it's way more featureful. So there's a lot more that you can do with these packages now. Like, the developer has an enormous amount of creative

1420
01:39:02.635 --> 01:39:04.175
opportunity and control

1421
01:39:04.635 --> 01:39:09.935
over the end user experience that somebody will have with Bitcoin or will have with LND.

1422
01:39:10.960 --> 01:39:21.355
And I'm not just talking about cosmetic stuff like the description that shows up in the marketplace. I'm talking about, like, the actual user experience of it. Like, for instance,

1423
01:39:22.054 --> 01:39:26.875
just to give people an idea of how, like, how nasty some of this stuff can get,

1424
01:39:28.210 --> 01:39:28.710
Take,

1425
01:39:29.730 --> 01:39:32.150
BTC pay server for instance. Okay?

1426
01:39:32.770 --> 01:39:33.090
And,

1427
01:39:33.730 --> 01:39:37.110
so the package developer for BTC pay server is Lucy,

1428
01:39:37.945 --> 01:39:42.684
and she's she's with Thank you, Mike. We've been with us since the beginning. She's wonderful, great developer,

1429
01:39:43.304 --> 01:39:46.925
and so she's working on she maintains BTC pay server.

1430
01:39:47.390 --> 01:39:48.770
And b t c pay server

1431
01:39:49.150 --> 01:39:56.210
doesn't just have a lot of dependencies and a lot of moving parts. Right? Their Docker compose image is, like, 5 different pieces of software

1432
01:39:56.655 --> 01:39:58.835
all smashed together and running in very,

1433
01:39:59.775 --> 01:40:02.114
bespoke ways. And on StartOS,

1434
01:40:02.815 --> 01:40:09.360
you know, we don't use Docker anymore. We definitely don't use Docker Compose. It's all garbage. It leads to all sorts of, like, hanging situations

1435
01:40:09.660 --> 01:40:25.620
and invalid states that cause server restarts and all the rest. And so we take a very, like, more robust and reliable approach to packaging this stuff up, and that required her to really get under the hood and do a lot of advanced kind of, you know, binary,

1436
01:40:27.200 --> 01:40:31.940
manipulation so that these different pieces of software could interact with each other as expected.

1437
01:40:32.625 --> 01:40:33.125
Well,

1438
01:40:33.905 --> 01:40:35.445
you have settings in BTCPay

1439
01:40:35.905 --> 01:40:37.364
where a user can go in,

1440
01:40:37.824 --> 01:40:44.520
and they're allowed 1 or the other, either LND or CLN. Right? You gotta use BTCP server with one underlying,

1441
01:40:45.539 --> 01:40:46.520
lightning implementation,

1442
01:40:47.515 --> 01:40:53.614
and we wanted people to be able to use either or. We didn't want to pin users down and be like, you have to use LND with BTCPay

1443
01:40:53.915 --> 01:40:54.415
like

1444
01:40:54.875 --> 01:40:59.750
some other node projects do. Right? We don't want to impose those opinions onto people.

1445
01:41:00.210 --> 01:41:03.030
And so what we did is you can go into your config of BTCPay,

1446
01:41:03.735 --> 01:41:11.035
and you can turn lightning off entirely, in which case you don't have to install LND or CLN, and BTPC pay will be perfectly happy.

1447
01:41:11.470 --> 01:41:13.890
But if you say that you do wanna run lightning,

1448
01:41:14.270 --> 01:41:19.330
now you're forced to choose, do you want LND or CLN? So you choose, oh, okay. I wanna run CLN,

1449
01:41:19.755 --> 01:41:20.975
and you click save.

1450
01:41:21.675 --> 01:41:22.575
Start OS

1451
01:41:23.355 --> 01:41:26.015
now actually creates a required dependency

1452
01:41:27.180 --> 01:41:27.920
on CLN,

1453
01:41:28.380 --> 01:41:34.320
and it tells you you need to go install this thing if it's not already installed. And you can do that with a button, of course.

1454
01:41:35.054 --> 01:41:38.034
Then it is like, well, it's not fully synced.

1455
01:41:38.975 --> 01:41:40.034
And so BTCPay

1456
01:41:40.574 --> 01:41:42.275
is acutely aware

1457
01:41:42.735 --> 01:41:43.235
of

1458
01:41:43.680 --> 01:41:44.900
its own needs.

1459
01:41:46.320 --> 01:41:56.105
And I'm not just talking about whether it's installed or not. I'm talking about whether it's running or not, whether it's configured properly, whether it's fully synced, and all of that messaging gets propagated back to the user

1460
01:41:56.405 --> 01:42:01.545
in the form of a simple message and a button to fix or change whatever needs to be fixed or changed.

1461
01:42:02.250 --> 01:42:06.190
That is an enormous amount of like, what I just described there

1462
01:42:06.570 --> 01:42:09.070
is like a Linux sysadmin sort of nightmare

1463
01:42:09.530 --> 01:42:10.670
on the end line,

1464
01:42:11.034 --> 01:42:20.494
and we've we've diluted it down into a UX that a normal person can can do. And that wasn't just a start OS thing. That was a BTC pay packaging thing.

1465
01:42:20.869 --> 01:42:23.610
Right? Lucy had to make that happen,

1466
01:42:24.150 --> 01:42:25.610
and she makes that happen

1467
01:42:26.230 --> 01:42:26.969
by using

1468
01:42:27.510 --> 01:42:28.409
the start

1469
01:42:28.955 --> 01:42:29.455
SDK,

1470
01:42:29.915 --> 01:42:34.415
right, which is the software development kit for StartOS, which we also wrote, that

1471
01:42:34.795 --> 01:42:35.295
makes

1472
01:42:36.260 --> 01:42:39.719
doing all the advanced things that she had to do with BTZ Pay

1473
01:42:40.099 --> 01:42:41.639
not accessible to, like,

1474
01:42:42.020 --> 01:42:43.320
grandma and user,

1475
01:42:43.965 --> 01:42:45.264
but accessible to,

1476
01:42:45.645 --> 01:42:55.890
like, interested community member who wants to help out. Right? Like, I believe that we have gotten the star SDK to the point where a reasonably technical,

1477
01:42:56.510 --> 01:43:04.675
like, junior coder could come in and be like, I love public pool, and I want it to be on start OS, and I'll be like, you can do it.

1478
01:43:05.054 --> 01:43:13.030
I promise you. Like, you can change you wanna see in the world. Yeah. And but we had to make it easy enough, and I think that we have with 036. So

1479
01:43:13.970 --> 01:43:21.435
Awesome. You know, it's it's a mixture of we need more leverage. We need to become more popular so that people feel more pressure to,

1480
01:43:22.215 --> 01:43:23.195
package for us.

1481
01:43:23.574 --> 01:43:25.594
We need, ease of implementation.

1482
01:43:26.054 --> 01:43:27.994
But on top of that, we need

1483
01:43:29.100 --> 01:43:31.040
help. We need support.

1484
01:43:31.500 --> 01:43:32.400
I would love

1485
01:43:32.940 --> 01:43:35.199
for, you know, open source organizations

1486
01:43:35.660 --> 01:43:36.160
and

1487
01:43:36.955 --> 01:43:38.975
individual donors to, like,

1488
01:43:39.435 --> 01:43:42.975
understand that start 9 is sort of, like, single handedly

1489
01:43:43.580 --> 01:43:45.040
trying to to

1490
01:43:45.580 --> 01:43:48.719
uphold and and drive forward the development of StartOS

1491
01:43:49.020 --> 01:43:50.960
and the packaging ecosystem,

1492
01:43:51.580 --> 01:43:53.199
which if you understand it,

1493
01:43:53.625 --> 01:43:58.365
could someday prove to be an important component in the maintenance of Bitcoin's decentralization,

1494
01:43:59.065 --> 01:44:00.125
Lightning's decentralization,

1495
01:44:00.860 --> 01:44:01.760
Noster's decentralization,

1496
01:44:02.300 --> 01:44:10.105
quite frankly, just self hosting in general. I hope that doesn't sound too arrogant. I just that is my ambitions for this project is that it turns out to be

1497
01:44:10.745 --> 01:44:11.885
meaningful and important.

1498
01:44:12.265 --> 01:44:14.605
And if others agree, help, please.

1499
01:44:15.465 --> 01:44:20.950
Contact your local rich person and ask them to help fund these open source developers to,

1500
01:44:22.070 --> 01:44:25.450
help us build this thing. I mean, look, that's what I wanna hear. I think

1501
01:44:27.015 --> 01:44:29.435
I think a lot of what you guys do well

1502
01:44:29.815 --> 01:44:36.560
is reducing friction, whether that's from the user side or from the dev side. And to all the devs out there, like, if you're listening right now,

1503
01:44:38.219 --> 01:44:38.719
please

1504
01:44:39.020 --> 01:44:42.080
contribute to StartOS. Please contribute to StartOS.

1505
01:44:43.465 --> 01:44:46.684
If if if you're currently working a dead end job,

1506
01:44:47.945 --> 01:44:50.764
you wanna work on this stuff full time, apply to OpenSats.

1507
01:44:52.190 --> 01:44:53.330
You have my support,

1508
01:44:54.350 --> 01:44:55.409
but please contribute.

1509
01:44:56.030 --> 01:44:58.290
Make the world a better place. I will say

1510
01:44:58.755 --> 01:45:07.340
it's all about reducing friction. Like, we need to reduce the friction as much as possible, whether that's on the user side or the dev side. I think you guys have done a fantastic job with that.

1511
01:45:08.540 --> 01:45:09.040
Unfortunately,

1512
01:45:10.300 --> 01:45:11.920
I do have a hard stop.

1513
01:45:12.940 --> 01:45:15.199
I can't tell you guys why, but it's important.

1514
01:45:16.935 --> 01:45:26.260
I I hope Matt joins us again many times in the future. I would love, like, constant updates on StartOS. I think that's a great idea. I'm trying to do this more often,

1515
01:45:27.920 --> 01:45:28.660
to have

1516
01:45:29.440 --> 01:45:36.845
to have the proper rider dies just come on dispatch on an often basis to you know, we'll do, like, every maybe, like,

1517
01:45:37.545 --> 01:45:39.885
not quite quarterly, not not quite,

1518
01:45:40.505 --> 01:45:43.725
twice a year, somewhere in the middle. 2 times a year.

1519
01:45:44.270 --> 01:45:47.410
You you're down for that? I'm gonna make that happen. Awesome.

1520
01:45:48.270 --> 01:45:48.770
Freaks.

1521
01:45:49.550 --> 01:45:53.650
As always, dispatch is is we have no ads or sponsors.

1522
01:45:57.155 --> 01:45:59.095
We rely solely on,

1523
01:45:59.475 --> 01:46:06.960
and when I say we, it's just me. I have no producer or anything. So this is a royal we. We rely solely on on your support,

1524
01:46:07.900 --> 01:46:09.585
to keep this going in and out,

1525
01:46:10.545 --> 01:46:15.364
And that comes in various fashions. That comes in people joining for the live chat,

1526
01:46:16.305 --> 01:46:20.310
people sharing the show with friends and family. We're on every podcast app.

1527
01:46:21.410 --> 01:46:22.949
All the links are still at dispatch.com,

1528
01:46:23.250 --> 01:46:27.355
and it comes in the form of you guys actually donating Bitcoin, whether that's through zap.stream,

1529
01:46:29.895 --> 01:46:34.715
live on air, or if that's through podcasting 2.0 apps like Fountain and Breeze.

1530
01:46:35.160 --> 01:46:37.820
Our biggest supporters this week was v with 23,000

1531
01:46:38.199 --> 01:46:39.580
sets, 8 with

1532
01:46:39.960 --> 01:46:41.179
24,000 sets,

1533
01:46:41.480 --> 01:46:45.815
Pringle Stacks with 11,000 sets, Erza CC with 10,000 sats,

1534
01:46:46.195 --> 01:46:48.535
and Jeff g with 10,000 sats.

1535
01:46:49.315 --> 01:46:49.815
Guys,

1536
01:46:51.700 --> 01:46:54.760
I'm gonna keep pushing forward. I hope you guys keep pushing forward.

1537
01:46:55.700 --> 01:46:58.840
We've been on a long rip of dispatches.

1538
01:46:59.540 --> 01:47:00.280
I think,

1539
01:47:01.364 --> 01:47:04.264
this next week, I might take off and just

1540
01:47:05.045 --> 01:47:07.224
put Freedom Money episodes on,

1541
01:47:08.250 --> 01:47:19.304
which was a couple years ago, but important and a lot of you probably haven't listened to it. So I'm just gonna throw that on the podcast feed, or maybe there will be a dispatch. If there is a dispatch, you'll be notified via nostr.

1542
01:47:19.685 --> 01:47:20.185
Promel.net/odel

1543
01:47:21.605 --> 01:47:22.824
is the easiest way

1544
01:47:23.364 --> 01:47:25.280
to find my profile. Matt,

1545
01:47:25.820 --> 01:47:27.520
final thoughts before we wrap.

1546
01:47:29.660 --> 01:47:45.710
No. I think the the last rant I had is a good note to end end on. That that was a good you had good final thoughts already? Yeah. Thanks for asking. I respect that. I appreciate you, Matt. I'm, proud to call you a friend. I'm, proud that 10:31 is supporting you guys,

1547
01:47:47.050 --> 01:47:50.830
and anything I can do or or help to support. And and and

1548
01:47:51.365 --> 01:48:01.410
and thank you for making it easy for me to self host all the stuff my family relies on. I do appreciate you. I'll keep fighting for you. Likewise, brother. Thanks for having me on. Thanks. K. See

1549
01:48:05.710 --> 01:48:06.210
you.

1550
01:49:38.705 --> 01:49:54.105
Good evening and welcome to this week's showcase of your favorite music. And one of the hottest sounds in pop leads us off tonight. Break my stride, our number 10 hit by Matthew Wilder. For the next 60 minutes, this is the place to be. And for more of what you wanna hear, let's get back to Matthew Wilder.

1551
01:51:18.915 --> 01:51:21.255
Love you, freaks. That track was

1552
01:51:22.515 --> 01:51:24.615
break my stride by Matthew Wilder.

1553
01:51:25.440 --> 01:51:29.380
Ain't nobody gonna break my stride. Let's fucking go. Let's keep pushing forward.

1554
01:51:29.920 --> 01:51:32.180
I love you all. Like I said earlier,

1555
01:51:33.365 --> 01:51:34.745
I think I might just drop

1556
01:51:35.125 --> 01:51:37.225
all 6 episodes of free money,

1557
01:51:38.405 --> 01:51:41.225
which we recorded about 3 years ago, but I've aged

1558
01:51:41.910 --> 01:51:42.650
quite well,

1559
01:51:43.510 --> 01:51:44.810
because I like to think

1560
01:51:45.429 --> 01:51:46.650
that's why we're here,

1561
01:51:49.590 --> 01:51:50.090
is

1562
01:51:50.954 --> 01:51:55.295
is that people should just be able to save and spend without permission. It's quite simple.

1563
01:51:55.914 --> 01:51:56.655
I think

1564
01:51:58.630 --> 01:51:59.770
at the end of the day,

1565
01:52:00.949 --> 01:52:04.650
if you don't have freedom, you're a slave. So you gotta just keep pushing forward,

1566
01:52:05.165 --> 01:52:06.864
be the change you wanna see in the world.

1567
01:52:09.725 --> 01:52:13.660
But I reserve the right to just rip a dispatch next week as well.

1568
01:52:14.140 --> 01:52:17.360
So you should follow me at Noster if you wanna be,

1569
01:52:18.380 --> 01:52:19.520
notified of that.

1570
01:52:20.780 --> 01:52:21.920
I love you all.

1571
01:52:22.614 --> 01:52:23.835
Consider self hosting,

1572
01:52:24.295 --> 01:52:28.554
whether that's with StartOS or some other way of self hosting. You can

1573
01:52:29.710 --> 01:52:33.170
do it yourself the hard way if you want, but StartOS makes it quite easy.

1574
01:52:34.430 --> 01:52:34.930
And

1575
01:52:38.255 --> 01:52:41.075
and and it makes it even easier if you just go buy a box.

1576
01:52:42.735 --> 01:52:44.175
Love you all. Stay on,

1577
01:52:46.335 --> 01:52:47.722
Let's fucking do this thing.