FREEDOM MONEY: DER GIGI

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Created: 5/20/2024 1:40:11 PM
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Every year, the Human Rights Foundation hosts the Oslo Freedom Forum, an event for human rights activists from all over the world.

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This May, in Norway,

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I had the pleasure of sitting down with Gigi. Gigi is a Bitcoiner and software engineer who writes words and code for Bitcoin.

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His first book, 21 Lessons, is one of the most recommended books among Bitcoiners. He's launched various projects in the Bitcoin space and is now currently working on his second book, 21 ways. His main focus is on privacy, security, free software, and education.

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When you think about freedom,

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what does that mean to you?

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Well, that's a good question to start it off, I think.

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I think

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if you don't have any freedom, you will notice it immediately, and we we take so many

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things for granted. And I think,

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first of

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all, it doesn't mean that you're absolutely free to do what you want, you know? Like, you're you you shouldn't be free to go on a killing spree without consequences.

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But

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I think,

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in general, you should be free to think what you want and free to say what you want. And also,

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within reason, free to do what you want, you know? Like, there is this saying, my freedom to swing my arm ends at your face, basically.

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So,

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yeah, I think when I think about freedom, I

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think mostly about

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all the important rights that we landed on, you know, like freedom of speech,

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freedom of movement, and,

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you know, also

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freedom to

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kind of construct

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your life as you

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see fit as you wish. So that would be one answer, I guess.

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Do you feel that there is a disconnect

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between

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people maybe that live in western countries

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that are more free versus

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other countries

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where,

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they might have authoritarian governments or be living less free world?

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Oh, I mean, definitely. I think most people are not aware, especially if you're living in a

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more or less free country in in one of the Western countries.

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Most people are not aware how bad it is around the world and how unfree

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some

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people are and, like, how some of the regimes

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function.

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And, I mean, we're here at the Freedom Forum and

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just listen to those kind of stories and

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the various hells that people went through, and you will understand very, very quickly.

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And I always like the

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kind of There are a couple of tests

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that will

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immediately

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open your eyes to how free you are or you aren't. For example, are you free to make fun

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of the leader of your country?

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And there are some countries where you just can't do that because you you'll you'll immediately

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land in jail or worse. And

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I think a lot of people

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in the west don't realize this, that that this is

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reality for a lot of people, that you you can't even make fun of someone. Like, your life will be in danger if you make fun

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of the wrong person, so to speak.

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So, I mean, you do a lot of work in

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the education space both in bitcoin,

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freedom, and privacy.

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How do you go about

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reasoning with people or helping them understand, you know, the lack of freedom that other people might be going through? Like, how do you get them to

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really feel that?

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I I always try to

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kind of start from first principles

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and and reason up from there. And it's,

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for example,

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with freedom of speech,

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it's the only thing that we have to course correct our society, to

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figure out

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what we are doing wrong and trying

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to fix that and trying to do it better. Once you start censoring people, once you can't say

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certain things or talk about certain

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things or certain people, certain situations, certain concepts,

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then you're already down a very weird and dark path because

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there is no other way to

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fixing things and course correcting

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all our actions without talking about it and without being able to talk about it and figuring out the best way.

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And in the end, we only have, like,

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as

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a as a con like, humans are networked beings.

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And as, like, a network organism, the only way we have

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is by talking about things and trying to figure stuff out. There's either that or immediately you land on violence. If you if you cannot

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talk it through and reason about it and find the best solution that everyone is

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willing to work towards voluntarily,

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you immediately

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like, the only other option that you have is violence. So it's it's either freedom of speech

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or violence.

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And, like, that's

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a kind of first principle

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first principles approach

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to make people understand how important this is. Like, most people

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don't think about these things properly. Like, they they're like, you can't say that because people will get offended and so on. Like, that's not that's not what this is about. Freedom of speech is not about offending people. It's not about being able to say stuff to offend someone.

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That's like a byproduct and something that we need to deal with. That's something that,

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you know, like,

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you we are

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I love to take the risk to being offended

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because everything else would be worse. You know? Like, silencing speech is way worse.

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And, yeah, I think we have to

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think about those things properly and deeply because we went through all those kind of various hells before. I mean, just take a glance at history, and you will see

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how bad things truly can get once you remove

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these freedoms and and

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these rights that are

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enshrined in the various documents that we drafted over, you know, 100 and 1000 of years.

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And, I mean, we still have places where,

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you know, like, you don't even have to look at history. You just

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have to look at, I mean, look at China, for example, you know, it's

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even though it's it's it's a very prosperous country over over the last,

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you know, decades, they did very well economically in some regards, but it's not a very free country, and

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you don't have to kind of,

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you know, look for long to

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to see what happens and what kind of authoritarian regimes and housecapes open up if you remove basic freedoms like freedom of speech and so on.

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Do you think you can have freedom without privacy?

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No.

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Just straight up no. Straight up no. You need you need the freedom. You need you need at least

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the privacy of your own home

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so that you can think what you want and say what you want and discuss things that are currently off topic.

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Like that, by off topic, I mean that are basically outside of the Overton window. Like, every every revolution was always, you know,

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by definition,

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everything that improves societies

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outside of the norm. It was always it's it's forbidden to talk about this. It's it's kind of, you know, even forbidden to think those things.

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Just

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think about the Gutenberg revolution. Think about, you know, like, abolishing slavery.

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You need

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you need the privacy of your own home to meet with someone else and discuss those things and and talk it through. And even even

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even for yourself, you need the privacy of your own home at least to think through things by yourself,

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to write about things for example and so on. Like writing writing, as far as I'm concerned, is thinking about things properly.

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And so I don't think there is any freedom without privacy.

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Basically, another way of saying the same thing is that surveillance

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makes all other freedoms useless, and you can immediately tell this

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just by, you know, watch at people I mean, everyone knows this, you know,

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watch at people at how they be how they behave

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if they think they are not being surveilled, and then you tell them or you show them that there was a camera or or something all along, they immediately change their behavior. Everything changes.

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So, yeah,

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again, surveillance makes all other freedoms useless.

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I mean, we're seeing surveillance

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grow throughout the world as especially as we move to a more digital world.

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A lot of times that is is by actual

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people choosing to be surveilled for a convenience,

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advantage and a lot of times it's for governments doing it. We see kids being born into surveillance.

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Is this something that concerns you? Is this something that should concern everybody?

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Yeah, it definitely concerns me.

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I think what what every what everyone should think

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long and hard about is

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these systems

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once they are built,

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that people can take over almost immediately, very easily.

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Often times these systems, like, these these systems of convenience

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and surveillance and so on,

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I mean, we see it with automated passport control, those kind of things, you know,

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it's it's it's all it's all fine and it's all very convenient

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if you actually like and agree with the people in power that are controlling the system

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and that are currently in charge of building these systems out and so on.

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But I mean, again, one quick glance at history and you can see how quickly things change, and suddenly you have an insane dictator in power, and he has access to those kind of systems. And then things can get

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really, really bad, really quickly.

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And I think everyone that's why everyone should be concerned and also why everyone should kind of

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take incremental steps of

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increasing their privacy and their, like, data footprint and those kind of things. I think

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it is just proper digital hygiene. That's

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that's one thing.

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Like, that's one way to think about it.

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And I think it will

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be increasingly important depending on your situation and, like, where you live, what you're doing,

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what kind of

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situations you're presented with.

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Yeah. I think everyone

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will

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have to care about this in one way or or another.

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I think

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that's the

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that's the world we're living in currently, and

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you will be faced

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with

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a situation where you probably

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wish that you

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had more privacy

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or where you're forced to do things privately, like if you have to flee your country for example, those kinds of things, then

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yeah, you need to take care of those things, otherwise your life will be in danger. And I mean, again,

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just look at

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all the cases that are presented here at the Oslo Freedom Forum. There are people dissidents and journalists and people in really bad situations.

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They need to,

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like,

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even even when you're speaking up, you need you need to have the option to be private and to use a pseudonym

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and be anonymous and

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write about the people in power in a way where you cannot be immediately squashed, for example, and so on. So I think that's all of that is very important.

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I mean, similar to me, you are a public figure that advocates for privacy.

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I often hear people say that

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it's it's hypocritical to do that, that you can't be both public and be pro privacy.

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How do you battle with that balance?

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Well,

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I think it's kind of a spectrum how much you wanna

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let the public know about you. And, again,

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privacy is not secrecy.

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It's privacy is about selectively

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revealing yourself to the world, you know, to quote Eric Hios. And

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that's exactly right,

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like, many people know many things about me, but

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it just kind of, you know,

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it should it shouldn't be

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it should be harder than, like, 10 seconds on Google or whatever search engine you're using

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to find out exactly

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all of your past, where you're currently living, and

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what you're up to, and so on, I believe.

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And

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that's kind of my goal in in showing that that this is also possible. Like you can actually

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you can be private online if you want to be. And I also I want to normalize privacy. I want to normalize,

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pseudonyms as well.

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I mean,

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I love how this was completely normal and still is in the gaming world, for example. Like, you don't like your name, you spin up a new one. You don't like your name, you don't like your avatar, you change it.

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And of course you know like this hangs together with identity and reputation and so on and like, all these things are currently being figured out. But I don't think that

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a Facebook world is a nice world to live live in where you have one identity

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and

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one image that defines you,

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and one name that defines you, and one kind of occupation, this is what you do, and so on. Like identity

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is,

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always was and always will be, prismatic.

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You are multiple people in 1. Like at church you're a different kind of person than you are at at your like soccer club or what have you. Like you're a different kind of person at the bar than,

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like you know, like you are on your job,

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depending what you do of course.

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And those kind of things are important, and

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you cannot kind of like in a in a Facebook world,

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they want you to to believe that you only have this kind of identity and you use it for absolutely everything.

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And you're

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you're kind of the identity that

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your government gives you is not necessarily your identity.

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I know many people

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where I don't even know their real names, you know, I don't even know their true names, I don't know their government names.

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I know their nymphs and I know those people very very well and I've been knowing them like

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I've known them for many many years, and I consider them my friends, and I think

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all of this should be normalized kind of like we we don't

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we shouldn't

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we shouldn't take steps

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towards

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building

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an insane panopticon. We should we should take steps

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to move away from this world, I believe. But isn't the panopticon already built?

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Well, to some extent, yes.

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But

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I think more like I'm in general optimistic.

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I

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would consider myself an optimist even though I know how bad things are.

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But I think people are

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currently waking up how

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bad it actually is. I mean,

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we saw

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whole countries

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being completely deplatformed from the banking system, for example, like, with with the click of a button. And I I think we will see

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I was I think we will see these,

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thing things

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these things will happen more frequently.

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As it is easier to do this, it will happen more frequently. So

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the Panopticon is built in part, but it's not complete yet. Not everything is absolutely connected. Like, there are still some

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there's still some friction if you actually want to,

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I don't know, deplatform

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deplatform,

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certain religious group from all societal services, for example.

254
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You cannot do this with one push of the button currently, worldwide definitely not.

255
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And I think

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we need to realize as a society that

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this is probably not a world we wanna live in. We don't we we should not continue to build up those systems, and we should take steps

258
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to

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tear down the existing systems and

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fight against this. Like, also speak out and also

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use technology

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that allows you to protect yourself, use encryption technology,

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don't give away your private information,

264
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don't give away any unnecessary information about yourself,

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And, yeah,

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I have an optimistic outlook about it. I think people will learn. The more people,

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like, the more people and the more countries and the more

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groups of people will get burned,

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the easier it will be to

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learn these things for them. Is that what gives you hope? That people will get burned and then they will learn?

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No,

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actually not. I think in general people are not stupid.

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That's what gives me hope.

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I don't believe in the stupid masses, you know. Messes can be be stupid and can behave in stupid ways and so on. But I think individuals are really smart, and I I view

275
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groups of people as just a bunch of individuals and they will figure it out and they will they will decide for themselves what is important.

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And

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again, I think

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people will realize that these kind of things are

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increasingly important. I mean, we see this

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you're you're self censoring and you're being deplatformed everywhere. Twitter is a great example. You know, like, you can't say certain things. You'll be banned immediately. Like, you'll

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you'll be in Twitter jail and so on. And I think

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there is

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a counter movement happening and people are kind of realizing how important it is to have open conversations, for example, and to have

284
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freedom of speech and freedom of thought and

285
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it's really important that you are able

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to say what you think even if this thing is stupid.

287
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Everyone is stupid from time to time. We are we should be allowed to say wrong things and stupid things and offensive things.

288
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And I think

289
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we've learned this the hard way so many times.

290
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I hope that we don't have to learn it the hard way again, but

291
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well, again, I'm an optimist. We might have to learn it the hard way

292
00:18:39.705 --> 00:18:42.730
again. I hope not. I really hope not.

293
00:18:43.190 --> 00:18:46.890
Well, anyway, Gigi, you can't really see through your pillowcase, but

294
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we just had a Ukrainian

295
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protest walk through,

296
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I guess a pro Ukrainian protest, with the war going on.

297
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So obviously apologies to to you and all the the listeners if if that got picked up.

298
00:19:01.320 --> 00:19:03.820
Yeah. But that's a perfect example. You need to be

299
00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.955
you need to be free to protest, for example. That's that's another thing that's super

300
00:19:09.414 --> 00:19:09.914
important.

301
00:19:10.375 --> 00:19:16.154
These are the kind of freedoms we are talking about, and in part, that's also a great

302
00:19:16.490 --> 00:19:18.030
example from the privacy

303
00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:21.470
side of things. Like I encourage people to go

304
00:19:21.770 --> 00:19:33.384
protesting, but maybe think about what you bring with you. Like if you have your mobile phone, which is a live tracking device with you, depending on your situation, depending on the government, depending on the protest,

305
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.620
it might be wiser to leave the phone at home

306
00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:47.005
and not build up a history that tracks you and your location and that you have been at the protest and so on. I mean, we saw this in Hong Kong and so on where people got burned by this.

307
00:19:47.465 --> 00:19:54.730
Right. I mean, we saw it in America too. They were using it during, a bunch of protests in America. They were tracking cell phones. Yeah.

308
00:19:55.670 --> 00:19:56.170
What,

309
00:19:57.990 --> 00:20:00.570
what would you say to So when I talk to people

310
00:20:01.215 --> 00:20:03.955
about privacy a lot of times what I hear is

311
00:20:05.055 --> 00:20:06.515
I'm already completely

312
00:20:07.375 --> 00:20:13.720
a part of the surveillance state, right? Like I use Facebook. I use Instagram. I use all the social media.

313
00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:25.885
I'm I'm already completely screwed. There's nothing I can do about it. What do you tell those people? There's there's always something you can do, and you you don't have to do it all at once. I I know it can be very overwhelming,

314
00:20:26.345 --> 00:20:36.215
and you have to take small steps in the right direction. That's the only way to do it. And, yeah, that might be true, but you can start by deleting your Facebook. Like, I can tell you,

315
00:20:37.095 --> 00:20:38.794
your quality of life will improve.

316
00:20:39.895 --> 00:20:45.169
But it depends on your situation of course, you know. For some people Facebook is the Internet. But it's

317
00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:46.289
you know, like

318
00:20:46.909 --> 00:20:47.309
do you

319
00:20:48.590 --> 00:20:49.090
again,

320
00:20:50.350 --> 00:20:55.095
every situation is different. For every individual, it will be different. But

321
00:20:55.554 --> 00:21:07.755
you're free, for example, to build up a second persona, pseudonym. If you want to do reporting, if you want to write something, if you want to, for example, also publish a book, there's a reason why authors have pen names, you know, there's a reason for that.

322
00:21:08.475 --> 00:21:12.735
Also, you know, of course in the music industry and so on there are many people that that use

323
00:21:13.355 --> 00:21:19.220
like different names as artists as their legal name and there are reasons for that. And you can do that, you can reduce

324
00:21:19.840 --> 00:21:24.740
the footprint of your legal identity and use a different identity. You can also

325
00:21:25.335 --> 00:21:27.675
like, switch ecosystems and use,

326
00:21:28.055 --> 00:21:35.330
for example, software that respects your privacy and software that respects your rights. And of course, there's the free software movement that is all about that,

327
00:21:35.710 --> 00:21:43.410
where you're free to use your compute as you wish. You're not the slave of your of your computer. You're not the slave of the system.

328
00:21:43.815 --> 00:22:02.115
Like, if you have a Facebook account, you're the slave of Facebook. They can do what they want. They can delete your account. They can delete your posts and so. And there are other there are other systems and other ways of doing things where this can never happen because you are in control and you're in charge. And with the money, for example, Bitcoin is the perfect example. If you use Bitcoin properly,

329
00:22:02.415 --> 00:22:10.740
no one can de bank you. No one can deplatform you. Your account can't be frozen. Your transactions can't be canceled. Like, if you know how to do this and how to use it properly,

330
00:22:11.120 --> 00:22:13.860
that's a step in the right direction. Then you are you have

331
00:22:14.295 --> 00:22:19.115
you're sovereign when it comes to your finances. And you can take small baby steps like

332
00:22:20.055 --> 00:22:23.140
your note taking app. Does it need to surveil you?

333
00:22:23.760 --> 00:22:31.635
Do you need to use the Google note taking app? I don't think so. There are other there are other apps that are really good. Standard notes would be one of them. There are plenty others.

334
00:22:32.174 --> 00:22:36.275
And so just try to use encryption by default. Try to use

335
00:22:36.750 --> 00:22:45.735
messengers that are open source and that have strong encryption built in, those kind of things. And you can you can do this in a step by step fashion, like you don't have to do it

336
00:22:46.855 --> 00:22:49.674
all at once and do it right from day 1. That's impossible.

337
00:22:50.054 --> 00:22:55.115
You have to learn. You have to adapt, and you can, again, reduce the size of your

338
00:22:56.120 --> 00:22:59.020
of your footprint, of your online footprint, and you can,

339
00:23:00.600 --> 00:23:09.935
yeah, start to take care of your digital hygiene. It's very much like, you know, starting to work out and eating healthy. It's like step by step, little steps every single day. And

340
00:23:10.715 --> 00:23:12.090
before you know it, you will

341
00:23:12.490 --> 00:23:17.309
before you know it, this argument completely falls flat because suddenly you are more private.

342
00:23:18.570 --> 00:23:20.905
Suddenly you're not you did not give

343
00:23:21.545 --> 00:23:23.085
everything away, you know.

344
00:23:24.985 --> 00:23:27.885
And your life can also change, like, it might be true that

345
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:38.265
some entity or some government has all the information about you now, but, you know, like, where you live can change, where you work can change, your name can change, your situation can change,

346
00:23:38.825 --> 00:23:44.925
And you can change too. And you can you can learn to do this. You can learn to use use the tools, as to say.

347
00:23:45.705 --> 00:23:46.685
It's not impossible.

348
00:23:47.100 --> 00:23:54.720
I did it too. I'm still in the process. I'm still trying to do this in a better way, and I'm learning every day. And I think that's the only way to do it.

349
00:23:55.554 --> 00:23:56.375
So you didn't

350
00:23:56.755 --> 00:23:57.255
always

351
00:23:57.635 --> 00:24:00.054
have conversations with a pillowcase over your face?

352
00:24:00.674 --> 00:24:08.039
No. Not always. I also I usually wear a green suit, but, unfortunately, I didn't bring it. So this is like the poor man's green suit.

353
00:24:08.659 --> 00:24:11.720
We made it work. We made it work. I appreciate your privacy.

354
00:24:14.485 --> 00:24:15.705
You know, so I mean,

355
00:24:16.085 --> 00:24:17.785
I'm obviously doing a show,

356
00:24:18.645 --> 00:24:19.385
this show,

357
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:22.460
about privacy and freedom,

358
00:24:23.480 --> 00:24:25.179
and my face is being shown,

359
00:24:26.919 --> 00:24:28.905
what do you think of that? Am I a dumbass?

360
00:24:30.345 --> 00:24:31.725
I don't think you're a dumbass.

361
00:24:32.985 --> 00:24:40.850
You can also shave your beard and no one will recognize you anymore, you know. Yeah. But also that. It's I mean magicians will tell you that,

362
00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:42.370
like you would

363
00:24:43.390 --> 00:24:43.970
be surprised

364
00:24:44.590 --> 00:24:49.495
what a fake mustache and a hat can do, Like people won't recognize you anymore. And I think

365
00:24:50.115 --> 00:24:50.615
people

366
00:24:51.235 --> 00:25:02.780
like we kind of moved away from a culture where this was more the norm, you know, everyone wearing a trench coat and a hat and sunglasses and just everyone kind of it was very easy to blend into a crowd and those kind of things.

367
00:25:03.725 --> 00:25:15.850
And currently, you know, like, it's everyone is taking selfies all the time and of course, you know, like, that not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just we live in a bit of a different culture now and people don't realize how

368
00:25:17.590 --> 00:25:20.415
like even if you're a public persona, I mean that's

369
00:25:21.035 --> 00:25:21.775
true for

370
00:25:22.395 --> 00:25:29.649
like very public people as well, there are ways to walk down the street without, you know, people recognizing you immediately. So

371
00:25:30.429 --> 00:25:31.649
you can do that, Matt.

372
00:25:32.830 --> 00:25:33.845
Get a nice big hat,

373
00:25:34.804 --> 00:25:37.465
nice big sunglasses. What what do you think about

374
00:25:37.924 --> 00:25:40.265
children coming into this world right now?

375
00:25:42.140 --> 00:25:42.640
I

376
00:25:43.340 --> 00:25:45.920
couldn't hear it. More children, like, first first and foremost.

377
00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:48.480
But specifically

378
00:25:48.860 --> 00:25:50.605
this idea of this balance

379
00:25:52.044 --> 00:25:54.304
between digital all encompassing surveillance

380
00:25:55.005 --> 00:25:58.625
and being prepared for a digital world at the same time.

381
00:26:02.390 --> 00:26:03.050
I mean,

382
00:26:03.510 --> 00:26:06.010
I think the parents should be kind of

383
00:26:06.745 --> 00:26:08.765
at least not completely careless

384
00:26:09.145 --> 00:26:10.524
in in the sense that,

385
00:26:11.225 --> 00:26:14.445
you know, messing up your kids privacy from the get go.

386
00:26:15.710 --> 00:26:22.535
I also think it I feel like it changed a little bit. Maybe it's just for me. Maybe I'm I'm very biased in that regard, but

387
00:26:22.935 --> 00:26:32.590
but I feel like it it used to be that everyone was broadcasting all the information all the time, just, you know, like, posting it on Facebook and Instagram and so on. And, like, how we use Instagram, for example, changed,

388
00:26:33.049 --> 00:26:37.230
and how we use Facebook changed. And now I feel like it's more directed. It's more like people use

389
00:26:38.090 --> 00:26:39.870
more private channels, like sending

390
00:26:40.554 --> 00:26:47.375
pics of the kids on Whatsapp to certain groups and so on. I feel like, you know, as a society we are kind of figuring out

391
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:59.785
how to do this in a way, sharing pictures and so on, that's not completely insane, you know, like just putting it online for absolutely everyone to see. Like this changed over the last 10, 15 years already.

392
00:27:00.565 --> 00:27:04.425
And so I don't think that all is lost but you know they're also

393
00:27:05.490 --> 00:27:06.150
they're very

394
00:27:07.170 --> 00:27:09.670
frightening developments, kind of, from the privacy

395
00:27:10.290 --> 00:27:19.505
perspective. In the European Union, for example, they want to install spyware on audio devices that scan your pictures and your texts before they ever get encrypted,

396
00:27:19.885 --> 00:27:23.825
before they are even sent out. So every time you snap a picture, it's

397
00:27:24.330 --> 00:27:24.830
scanned.

398
00:27:26.250 --> 00:27:28.730
And people should just be aware of it. And,

399
00:27:29.130 --> 00:27:32.830
those are not great developments, to put put it mildly.

400
00:27:34.865 --> 00:27:37.825
But, yeah, it's it's kind of tricky because we are living in this

401
00:27:39.025 --> 00:27:43.120
I mean, we're all digital natives, and the kids definitely are. And so

402
00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:44.640
I don't think

403
00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:45.680
not using

404
00:27:46.380 --> 00:27:49.680
a smartphone, for example, is an option. I I think you

405
00:27:50.125 --> 00:27:53.904
you kind of have to you have

406
00:27:54.445 --> 00:27:57.664
to learn how to use those things, and,

407
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.020
you know I think a good idea Adam Curry talked about this as well, that

408
00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:06.820
if you have kids try to

409
00:28:07.355 --> 00:28:27.695
teach them about the technology and show them that there are other things as well. You know? Like, show them what Linux is. Set up a Linux system. Play around with that. And, like, flash a different OS on a smartphone and let them, you know, learn those kind of things and and play around with it. Kids love this stuff. I mean, they love technology and just tinkering with stuff and figuring

410
00:28:28.155 --> 00:28:31.935
figuring shit out, and so I'm not I'm not too worried about it. But

411
00:28:32.620 --> 00:28:33.600
again, I think

412
00:28:33.980 --> 00:28:34.720
as parents,

413
00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.880
I hope that

414
00:28:37.500 --> 00:28:39.760
more and more parents are more careful with

415
00:28:40.795 --> 00:28:41.855
how they're handling,

416
00:28:43.035 --> 00:28:43.535
like,

417
00:28:43.995 --> 00:28:45.055
the digital traces,

418
00:28:47.435 --> 00:28:54.190
the digital bread crumbs that they leave all over the place. Do you think there's gonna be, like, a bit of a reckoning in that regard as these kids get older?

419
00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:57.130
Because this is the 1st generation that really has had

420
00:28:58.035 --> 00:29:01.095
has grown up with social media, that has grown up with,

421
00:29:01.795 --> 00:29:06.535
you know, maybe listening devices in their house whether that's Amazon or Google or whatnot.

422
00:29:08.580 --> 00:29:12.440
That's a good question. I don't know. I think in general, the kids will be alright.

423
00:29:12.820 --> 00:29:14.840
You know, I grew up playing computer games,

424
00:29:15.385 --> 00:29:16.845
violent ones, quote unquote.

425
00:29:17.625 --> 00:29:20.045
Like stuff like Doom and Duke Nukem and so on.

426
00:29:20.425 --> 00:29:26.660
And according to the mainstream media at the time, and that was a prevailing few for like 10 years plus,

427
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:29.300
that if you play this for like

428
00:29:29.885 --> 00:29:33.505
multiple hours a day, you'll be a serial killer, you know.

429
00:29:33.965 --> 00:29:41.940
And it turns out not every gamer turned into a serial killer. It's just something that gaming got integrated into society completely.

430
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.940
Like it's completely normal now. I still remember a time where it absolutely wasn't. You were

431
00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:50.914
a complete weirdo if you were playing computer games.

432
00:29:51.375 --> 00:29:54.034
And so, I mean, I'm still kind of a weirdo, so

433
00:29:54.335 --> 00:29:55.635
there's that. But

434
00:29:56.414 --> 00:29:56.735
it's

435
00:29:58.270 --> 00:30:03.470
again, I think it will be fine. I think the kids will be alright and and they they will they will also learn

436
00:30:06.145 --> 00:30:08.565
I think they will learn how to handle those

437
00:30:08.945 --> 00:30:10.645
kind of things, and also the

438
00:30:11.025 --> 00:30:17.980
the ecosystems that are currently worrying us, I think they they will find a way around it, kind of. They they'll figure it out.

439
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.500
So we met in the Bitcoin world.

440
00:30:22.385 --> 00:30:23.125
We did.

441
00:30:24.465 --> 00:30:28.085
A bunch of years ago. You obviously are very focused on Bitcoin.

442
00:30:28.544 --> 00:30:29.845
Why is Bitcoin important?

443
00:30:31.350 --> 00:30:34.409
Oh, I think bitcoin is the most important

444
00:30:34.789 --> 00:30:36.169
thing that's currently happening.

445
00:30:37.110 --> 00:30:37.610
Period.

446
00:30:38.835 --> 00:30:40.855
But especially if you care about freedom.

447
00:30:41.875 --> 00:30:44.135
Bitcoin is insanely important. Like

448
00:30:47.840 --> 00:30:55.860
all the people that are on a power trip and want to build authoritarian systems and want to build the Panopticons and so on,

449
00:30:58.705 --> 00:31:01.044
They can do this easily because,

450
00:31:01.585 --> 00:31:05.684
in my opinion, the money is broken and you can finance this very easily.

451
00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:11.230
If we were on a Bitcoin standard already, it would be very hard to finance those things. That's

452
00:31:11.610 --> 00:31:21.315
that's one reason why Bitcoin is important. Same is true for wars and so on. Like, it's very easy to finance those things currently with the the way the monetary system is set up.

453
00:31:22.255 --> 00:31:23.235
And I think

454
00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:27.160
I think Bitcoin is

455
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:32.760
the return to a more sane and sound world.

456
00:31:33.215 --> 00:31:34.515
That's my hope at least.

457
00:31:35.535 --> 00:31:39.395
And in the freedom realm, again, like if you use Bitcoin properly,

458
00:31:41.690 --> 00:31:47.390
no one can deplatform you, no one can cancel you, no one can freeze your account, no one can

459
00:31:47.965 --> 00:31:50.544
forcefully take the Bitcoin away from you,

460
00:31:51.325 --> 00:31:53.184
at least not remotely, you know. It's

461
00:31:54.770 --> 00:31:57.510
like a gold coin that you have in your pocket. It can be stolen,

462
00:31:58.130 --> 00:32:03.590
like, if if you if you find a person and so on. But that's also

463
00:32:04.915 --> 00:32:09.735
not entirely true because bitcoin what I love about bitcoin is it's just information.

464
00:32:10.275 --> 00:32:12.455
It has no physical body, so to speak.

465
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:25.175
That's why you can have Bitcoin in your head, and you can literally have Bitcoin in your head. And, I mean, every Bitcoiner know knows this, but I feel like we don't talk about this fact often enough. You can have 12 words in your head.

466
00:32:25.795 --> 00:32:28.215
You can have all your wealth, all your possessions

467
00:32:28.515 --> 00:32:39.500
stored in these 12 words in your head, and you can get stripped naked and run run across the border, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. And if you if you make it back to safety,

468
00:32:40.255 --> 00:32:46.275
you can enter these 12 words into like a hardware wallet or something, and you have access to all your wealth, and it's intact,

469
00:32:46.899 --> 00:32:49.880
And that's very powerful, and that's very important for freedom.

470
00:32:50.899 --> 00:32:52.759
We need tools like this that

471
00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:58.265
empower the individual again, and put the individual at the center. And that's what Bitcoin does.

472
00:32:58.885 --> 00:33:00.105
When you think about Bitcoin,

473
00:33:01.925 --> 00:33:07.130
what is your do you have any concerns with the current state of bitcoin? What is your biggest concern?

474
00:33:09.350 --> 00:33:09.850
Apathy.

475
00:33:10.950 --> 00:33:11.450
Apathy.

476
00:33:11.815 --> 00:33:12.715
That people don't

477
00:33:14.535 --> 00:33:16.155
care. Do people care?

478
00:33:17.095 --> 00:33:20.475
More and more people care, and that's very good to see. I think,

479
00:33:21.090 --> 00:33:22.309
you know, as the

480
00:33:25.250 --> 00:33:27.510
as the fiat system, the traditional

481
00:33:28.850 --> 00:33:29.990
monetary system,

482
00:33:31.554 --> 00:33:35.255
I think it's currently breaking down. And at this as this increases,

483
00:33:36.195 --> 00:34:02.400
the problems will increase, and more and more people will be waking up to the fact that Bitcoin is a viable alternative and a sound money alternative and something that you can just use and you will always have access to and no one can take it ever away from you. Bitcoin will always be there for you. That's people that like, people don't realize how profound this is, you know? In that sense, it's like gold, you know? Like, gold will always be there for you if you wanna use it. It It doesn't go away, you know, gold doesn't react to anything else.

484
00:34:02.860 --> 00:34:04.480
You can't destroy gold basically.

485
00:34:05.020 --> 00:34:11.595
I think you also can't destroy Bitcoin, the same. The Bitcoin network will always be there for you. And what's also so powerful,

486
00:34:12.215 --> 00:34:13.915
if you're a dissident, for example,

487
00:34:14.410 --> 00:34:17.390
or a journalist or what have you, and you need to receive funds,

488
00:34:18.090 --> 00:34:22.190
all you need to do is lock yourself in a bathroom or something, some private place,

489
00:34:22.575 --> 00:34:30.435
and flip a coin a couple of times, and then you have a Bitcoin wallet. It's just some math after that, but you just need a large random number, and you can flip a coin 265

490
00:34:30.895 --> 00:34:31.395
times,

491
00:34:31.740 --> 00:34:36.560
and you will have a valid Bitcoin wallet. That's all you need to do. That's that's why they call it permissionless.

492
00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:40.480
You don't need permission to do that. You can just do that,

493
00:34:41.065 --> 00:34:45.565
And you will always be able to do that. And that's why Bitcoin is so powerful. You can actually do this.

494
00:34:46.265 --> 00:34:47.325
You can be in a prison

495
00:34:47.705 --> 00:34:49.965
cell and do this. You just need a way

496
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:50.840
to

497
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:51.800
communicate

498
00:34:52.580 --> 00:35:15.059
the output of this, like the the large number. You do some math, and then you have a Bitcoin address. And the Bitcoin address, you can put anywhere. You can put it on your Twitter profile and so on. And, of course, you know, like, currently, Bitcoin is still young. Like, there are some privacy implications with address reuse and so on. I don't think we need to get into this. This all of this is currently being figured out, you know? The example I always like to give for

499
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:16.740
for those kind of

500
00:35:18.025 --> 00:35:21.244
shortcomings of the technology currently, if you will, is like

501
00:35:21.704 --> 00:35:25.244
it it took us 30 years to transition from a plain text Internet,

502
00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:26.530
HTTP

503
00:35:26.910 --> 00:35:27.730
to HTTPS.

504
00:35:28.670 --> 00:35:30.690
That took us 30 years, and it took

505
00:35:31.390 --> 00:35:34.210
also on a societal level, like people didn't care.

506
00:35:35.325 --> 00:35:35.825
Cryptographers

507
00:35:36.285 --> 00:35:40.464
cared, but people didn't. It took someone like Edward Snowden to show the people

508
00:35:40.845 --> 00:35:41.905
why this is important,

509
00:35:42.205 --> 00:35:43.185
why we need

510
00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:44.250
encryption

511
00:35:44.790 --> 00:35:45.290
online.

512
00:35:45.750 --> 00:35:50.330
If everything is in plain text, that's a really bad idea, you know, for example, with the Internet.

513
00:35:51.110 --> 00:35:57.125
And, yeah, we it took a long time for for us to really take this seriously and and figure it out.

514
00:35:57.425 --> 00:36:03.600
And I don't think it will take as long as as the time with with Bitcoin. I think people will figure out quicker

515
00:36:04.620 --> 00:36:06.240
how important Bitcoin is,

516
00:36:06.620 --> 00:36:09.500
because money is kind of the most important thing in

517
00:36:10.365 --> 00:36:11.744
when it comes to your survival.

518
00:36:12.605 --> 00:36:13.105
It's

519
00:36:13.724 --> 00:36:14.625
really, really

520
00:36:15.164 --> 00:36:18.865
hard to survive if you have zero money or the money breaks down.

521
00:36:19.244 --> 00:36:19.984
And so,

522
00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:21.970
yeah, Bitcoin

523
00:36:22.350 --> 00:36:25.810
is, again, the most important thing that's currently going on, in my opinion.

524
00:36:27.070 --> 00:36:29.170
Do you think the success of Bitcoin is inevitable?

525
00:36:32.234 --> 00:36:34.095
Inevitable is a very big word,

526
00:36:36.395 --> 00:36:37.454
but, yeah, I do.

527
00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:38.960
I kind of do.

528
00:36:40.460 --> 00:36:42.720
I think the cat is out of the bag and,

529
00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:44.240
you know,

530
00:36:47.435 --> 00:36:48.335
bitcoin kind

531
00:36:49.835 --> 00:36:51.535
of takes human greed

532
00:36:51.915 --> 00:36:54.495
and transform transforms it into freedom.

533
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:56.380
That's what it does.

534
00:36:57.160 --> 00:36:58.620
That's why it works so well.

535
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:01.260
There are a lot of greedy people in the world,

536
00:37:01.640 --> 00:37:06.365
and they use Bitcoin, and they will continue to use Bitcoin. And by using Bitcoin,

537
00:37:06.905 --> 00:37:09.805
they empower everyone else that uses Bitcoin for freedom.

538
00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:13.300
It is pretty astounding

539
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.060
that Bitcoin is designed from the ground up

540
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.395
to assume that all actors will act greedy and in their own best interests.

541
00:37:23.335 --> 00:37:25.835
Is there any other systems that we have that

542
00:37:26.375 --> 00:37:27.275
act that way?

543
00:37:28.250 --> 00:37:29.310
I don't know. I think

544
00:37:29.690 --> 00:37:34.430
I often I often think of Bitcoin as, like, a living, breathing thing, as, like, a

545
00:37:34.964 --> 00:37:35.464
cybernetic

546
00:37:36.005 --> 00:37:40.105
organism, if you if you if you want. And I think a lot of things in nature,

547
00:37:40.885 --> 00:37:41.444
while they are

548
00:37:42.500 --> 00:37:43.000
like

549
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:49.799
life is always self interested in a way, you know, like there's the idea of the selfish gene and so on, but it's still

550
00:37:50.475 --> 00:37:52.175
like all of life is

551
00:37:52.955 --> 00:37:53.455
symbiotic.

552
00:37:54.235 --> 00:37:54.975
It's not

553
00:37:55.275 --> 00:37:55.775
purely

554
00:37:56.555 --> 00:37:58.175
self interest in a sense

555
00:37:59.240 --> 00:37:59.740
Like,

556
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:16.285
so self interested that you bring down the whole system. That's not what's going on. And I think Bitcoin and money in general is the same. Most people don't realize how important money is. That's the I think that's the main stumbling block when it comes to understanding Bitcoin and how important it is for freedom. Because there's only

557
00:38:17.560 --> 00:38:19.100
we only have money or violence

558
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:21.740
to get something from strangers.

559
00:38:22.680 --> 00:38:28.505
In small communities, not a problem. In a family, it's not a problem. A family is like, you know, you don't need money in a family

560
00:38:28.885 --> 00:38:30.664
because you can trust family members

561
00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:31.500
usually,

562
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:41.955
and you can you can do things on credit, you know, like I do something in neighborhoods, that's how it works, you know, like you do something for your neighbor and he'll do something, you know, some other day for you, and so on. You don't need money.

563
00:38:42.335 --> 00:38:43.955
But to scale through

564
00:38:44.494 --> 00:38:44.994
those

565
00:38:45.775 --> 00:38:46.595
trust boundaries,

566
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:52.980
to really have large scale societies, you absolutely need money. It's the only thing

567
00:38:53.520 --> 00:38:55.460
that's that really scales because

568
00:38:56.214 --> 00:38:56.875
you can

569
00:38:57.575 --> 00:39:00.474
get something from a stranger for money.

570
00:39:00.855 --> 00:39:03.035
And the only alternative that we have is violence.

571
00:39:03.335 --> 00:39:05.595
You can either steal it or you can

572
00:39:06.190 --> 00:39:09.010
you can go into a voluntary relationship

573
00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:11.089
with someone else

574
00:39:11.950 --> 00:39:13.810
that you don't trust by default,

575
00:39:14.325 --> 00:39:15.545
but you will trust

576
00:39:15.845 --> 00:39:21.705
the money. If you can trust the money, then you can trust the stranger, and that's why also money is so important,

577
00:39:22.230 --> 00:39:25.450
why why final settlement and hard money is so important, because

578
00:39:25.830 --> 00:39:27.369
once the transaction is done,

579
00:39:28.070 --> 00:39:31.130
you only need to trust the money, you don't need to trust the stranger anymore.

580
00:39:32.055 --> 00:39:38.395
And that's how society scale. That's how interactions scale. And people don't think about this in the right way, like how

581
00:39:38.830 --> 00:39:40.370
amazing this is, that we

582
00:39:41.550 --> 00:39:43.170
as humans figured out

583
00:39:43.630 --> 00:39:45.330
that the proper way to

584
00:39:45.924 --> 00:39:48.424
interact with other people is on a voluntary basis,

585
00:39:49.605 --> 00:39:52.025
and exchanging things because you want to,

586
00:39:52.325 --> 00:39:53.065
and not

587
00:39:53.599 --> 00:39:54.420
taking them by

588
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.099
force. It's a more stable system. The peaceful system

589
00:39:58.560 --> 00:40:00.339
is always a more stable system.

590
00:40:00.885 --> 00:40:06.745
Violence is not stable. It can't be. It's just again, from reasoning from first principles,

591
00:40:07.685 --> 00:40:08.745
a system that

592
00:40:09.290 --> 00:40:10.910
needs force to work

593
00:40:11.369 --> 00:40:12.670
is not stable because

594
00:40:13.050 --> 00:40:19.665
and it will also be outcompeted by a system that is peaceful by default and voluntary by default by default, because you need to

595
00:40:20.125 --> 00:40:21.345
use the extra energy

596
00:40:22.205 --> 00:40:29.430
to be violent and to put the pressure on the system, so to speak. And if you have a if you have a system that that works

597
00:40:31.170 --> 00:40:31.670
symbiotically

598
00:40:32.130 --> 00:40:33.190
and works voluntarily,

599
00:40:34.049 --> 00:40:37.395
this system will always win. That's in part why I think it's it's inevitable.

600
00:40:38.815 --> 00:40:39.795
If you had

601
00:40:40.975 --> 00:40:42.915
friend friend comes to you,

602
00:40:43.295 --> 00:40:46.510
never used Bitcoin before, has no idea what Bitcoin is,

603
00:40:47.310 --> 00:40:48.210
Where do they start?

604
00:40:49.470 --> 00:40:51.410
Give them a couple of sets on lightning.

605
00:40:52.030 --> 00:40:55.730
That usually does the trick. Let them install some lightning wallet.

606
00:40:56.095 --> 00:41:02.355
I I usually don't do recommendations because, you know, it changes all the time, what is the best wallet and so on. Right. But just make sure to

607
00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:04.079
let them experience

608
00:41:05.099 --> 00:41:07.280
what it feels like to, you know,

609
00:41:08.140 --> 00:41:10.560
get a couple of sets instantly and just

610
00:41:11.365 --> 00:41:15.785
these are your sets. No one can take them away from you. And I didn't you you know, like, you

611
00:41:16.085 --> 00:41:16.585
you

612
00:41:16.885 --> 00:41:17.385
you

613
00:41:18.085 --> 00:41:24.640
you don't need to do anything to sign up for Bitcoin. Again, back to the flipping the coin. What your phone does is the

614
00:41:25.100 --> 00:41:26.400
phone locks itself

615
00:41:27.405 --> 00:41:28.625
in a secret place

616
00:41:29.165 --> 00:41:42.450
and generates a large random number, flips the coin 265 times, does some math, and out comes a Bitcoin address. And conceptually, it doesn't matter if you use on Chain of Lightning or whatever. That's what's happening. And then immediately, you can start receiving Bitcoin, basically.

617
00:41:43.070 --> 00:41:43.570
And

618
00:41:44.255 --> 00:41:49.795
experiencing that, you you have to experience it firsthand. So best thing, best first step is

619
00:41:50.255 --> 00:41:55.630
get that friend some wallet, send them some Bitcoin. That's it. And what if they don't have a friend?

620
00:41:59.770 --> 00:42:00.910
Where do they start?

621
00:42:03.984 --> 00:42:05.285
I don't know. I think

622
00:42:06.145 --> 00:42:10.965
I think we're kind of past the point. Everyone knows a crazy Bitcoin guy some somewhere. No?

623
00:42:11.890 --> 00:42:15.590
There are many Bitcoiners on there. Make more friends, is that? Make more friends.

624
00:42:17.250 --> 00:42:17.750
What

625
00:42:18.665 --> 00:42:19.645
what is your

626
00:42:20.025 --> 00:42:25.484
when when you think of of your day to day in in the Bitcoin space, in the education space,

627
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:28.000
why do you do it?

628
00:42:28.380 --> 00:42:29.440
Why does it matter?

629
00:42:32.140 --> 00:42:32.640
Yeah.

630
00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:35.519
I do it because it matters, I think.

631
00:42:36.964 --> 00:42:40.904
I truly believe that the world would be a better place if more people understood Bitcoin,

632
00:42:41.765 --> 00:42:42.265
and

633
00:42:42.849 --> 00:42:43.349
so

634
00:42:43.810 --> 00:43:00.970
I get up every day and I think, you know, I'm gonna write words and code for bitcoin. That's what I'm gonna do. And that's that's what I've been doing for a couple of years now. And yeah, I think that's what what that's why people know me as well. I I wrote a little book called 21 lessons. That's why I think most people know

635
00:43:01.350 --> 00:43:05.770
me. And, I mean, I'm on Twitter too much still, but I think all the corners are.

636
00:43:06.790 --> 00:43:08.250
But I just try to

637
00:43:09.444 --> 00:43:10.265
I try to

638
00:43:10.645 --> 00:43:12.105
find ways to

639
00:43:13.444 --> 00:43:14.345
both educate

640
00:43:15.125 --> 00:43:18.760
the public, but maybe more importantly also educate

641
00:43:19.220 --> 00:43:20.680
those that are already

642
00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:23.480
close to Bitcoin how to think about

643
00:43:23.835 --> 00:43:26.095
Bitcoin in a new way maybe, and how to

644
00:43:26.875 --> 00:43:30.655
explain some aspects of it and the importance of those aspects

645
00:43:31.195 --> 00:43:34.280
in a little bit of a different way and maybe in a more

646
00:43:34.740 --> 00:43:35.240
digestible,

647
00:43:35.620 --> 00:43:37.000
easier to understand way.

648
00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:49.395
Did you learn anything from writing 21 Lessons? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the the the the subtitle of the book is what I've learned from falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, and it's just a brief summary of what I've learned about

649
00:43:49.740 --> 00:43:52.320
kind of the monetary side of things

650
00:43:52.940 --> 00:43:53.760
and the technology

651
00:43:54.140 --> 00:43:56.800
side of things, but most importantly, maybe the

652
00:43:57.565 --> 00:44:00.385
philosophical side of it. Like, Bitcoin is a very

653
00:44:00.765 --> 00:44:05.985
new and strange thing. That's, I think, why most people have a hard time

654
00:44:06.780 --> 00:44:07.280
wrapping

655
00:44:08.060 --> 00:44:10.960
their head around it. Like, nothing like it ever existed before.

656
00:44:11.340 --> 00:44:11.840
And

657
00:44:12.859 --> 00:44:15.359
I learned a lot from Bitcoin, and I still do. Like,

658
00:44:15.835 --> 00:44:16.494
I still

659
00:44:16.875 --> 00:44:20.255
I still work on Bitcoin full time every single day. I still

660
00:44:20.555 --> 00:44:31.975
like, most days I learn new stuff. That's just how it goes. In your bitcoin journey in general, is there anything you would have changed that you would have done differently? Maybe something you would have changed in 21 lessons after hearing from readers?

661
00:44:35.575 --> 00:44:36.715
I don't know. I

662
00:44:37.095 --> 00:44:43.020
I don't consider 21 lessons a proper book because it was just basically a very long tweet thread tweet thread,

663
00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:48.120
so I I wish I I think you're selling yourself short. I mean, how long is the book? The book is

664
00:44:48.895 --> 00:44:53.395
No. It's you can read it in, like, 2 hours or so. It's it's it's not very long,

665
00:44:53.695 --> 00:45:02.530
but I I wish I would have put more meat on the bone, so to speak, but I'm I'm still I'm still working on that. That's that's in part why why there is gonna be a

666
00:45:03.150 --> 00:45:06.930
a follow-up book called 21 ways, which will be 21 ways to

667
00:45:07.565 --> 00:45:08.305
look at Bitcoin.

668
00:45:09.244 --> 00:45:10.785
I mean, I don't

669
00:45:13.005 --> 00:45:15.025
regret anything really. I think

670
00:45:15.690 --> 00:45:20.270
I absolutely love what I do, and I again, my

671
00:45:21.849 --> 00:45:23.869
the main thesis that I have is that

672
00:45:24.365 --> 00:45:27.265
if more people would understand bitcoin, everything would be better.

673
00:45:27.885 --> 00:45:34.780
And so that's also why I just I publish everything that I do, under an open Creative Commons license,

674
00:45:35.080 --> 00:45:36.140
so you're free

675
00:45:36.520 --> 00:45:41.420
to copy and remix my stuff, you're free to print a book that you can read for free online,

676
00:45:41.735 --> 00:45:48.395
print it yourself and sell it at the corner store. I don't care. I just want people to understand it in a better way. And

677
00:45:48.695 --> 00:45:50.075
so, yeah, no, in

678
00:45:50.375 --> 00:45:50.875
general

679
00:45:52.050 --> 00:45:52.870
I wish,

680
00:45:53.330 --> 00:45:57.430
maybe that's the one regret, I should have I should have quit my Fiat job earlier.

681
00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:01.235
It took me a long time to

682
00:46:01.635 --> 00:46:03.255
actually make the plunge and,

683
00:46:04.275 --> 00:46:11.850
yeah, kill off my old career and go into Bitcoin full time. The best decision I ever made. I mean, you say you give out these books and

684
00:46:12.470 --> 00:46:21.145
your books and your content. It's it's all under open source license. Anyone can take it. Yeah. But you do you do receive money from the community.

685
00:46:21.685 --> 00:46:30.800
Yeah. I I run everything on a value for value basis. So if you think my stuff is useful, it's very easy to send some sets my way, and people do.

686
00:46:31.260 --> 00:46:32.240
Like, it's

687
00:46:33.414 --> 00:46:41.115
it's a very interesting concept and it's amazing how well it works. And I mean, now it's automated with Podcasting 2.0 where, you know, like you can actually

688
00:46:41.790 --> 00:46:42.290
programmatically

689
00:46:42.670 --> 00:46:45.730
define that you're a podcast player, while

690
00:46:46.109 --> 00:46:47.490
you're listening to an episode,

691
00:46:48.109 --> 00:46:51.995
money will be streaming to the people that are behind it, and you can programmatically

692
00:46:52.375 --> 00:46:53.355
split this value

693
00:46:53.975 --> 00:46:57.355
stream to, you know, also include charities and those kind of things.

694
00:46:57.960 --> 00:47:01.580
And I absolutely love this concept, and that's why everything I do,

695
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:03.740
like, works on that basis.

696
00:47:04.359 --> 00:47:05.640
And, well, I

697
00:47:06.325 --> 00:47:06.825
again

698
00:47:07.845 --> 00:47:08.345
I

699
00:47:08.645 --> 00:47:11.785
the thing is that I never cared about money, and I still don't.

700
00:47:12.085 --> 00:47:18.680
I only care about fixing the money, And so that's that's why it works for me. I I think information wants to be free. And I'm

701
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:26.434
even long before Bitcoin, I was a huge supporter of free and open source software. And I think those kind of things, they should be

702
00:47:26.734 --> 00:47:28.275
freely available for

703
00:47:28.575 --> 00:47:29.875
for for everyone.

704
00:47:30.335 --> 00:47:36.620
And that's why all my stuff is published under these kind of licenses, where you can just you can just take it

705
00:47:37.240 --> 00:47:40.535
and do whatever you want with it. Do you think that's the future of content?

706
00:47:41.655 --> 00:47:42.954
I actually do. I

707
00:47:47.174 --> 00:47:52.109
think it's a bigger idea than most people realize. I think, like, online advertisement

708
00:47:53.230 --> 00:47:59.089
online advertisements are like, I don't know, a big big business, 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars.

709
00:47:59.525 --> 00:48:02.345
And I think the value for value model can actually

710
00:48:04.244 --> 00:48:07.225
it's a contender to the regular advertisement

711
00:48:07.605 --> 00:48:09.305
based model, and

712
00:48:09.830 --> 00:48:11.290
I think it can produce

713
00:48:11.750 --> 00:48:13.850
more value in the sense that

714
00:48:14.230 --> 00:48:16.970
if you as a content creator are absolutely free

715
00:48:17.350 --> 00:48:19.335
to do what you want and you have

716
00:48:20.535 --> 00:48:21.035
you

717
00:48:21.335 --> 00:48:22.474
there's no self

718
00:48:22.935 --> 00:48:24.714
censorship involved. There's no,

719
00:48:25.095 --> 00:48:27.355
like, fear of ever being deplatformed

720
00:48:27.815 --> 00:48:28.714
and so on.

721
00:48:29.809 --> 00:48:31.109
I think it will

722
00:48:31.730 --> 00:48:33.109
open up a lot of

723
00:48:35.650 --> 00:48:37.589
new ways of doing things and

724
00:48:38.615 --> 00:48:44.075
producing content, and educating people, and thinking about the world, and producing value. And I think it will also

725
00:48:44.775 --> 00:48:45.915
open up the discussion

726
00:48:46.470 --> 00:48:48.410
about value. Like, how valuable

727
00:48:50.070 --> 00:48:55.690
is information to you, for example. Like, the the whole idea of the value for value model is

728
00:48:57.405 --> 00:48:59.025
that you, as the sender,

729
00:48:59.805 --> 00:49:07.490
you already receive the information. You already read the book. You already read the article. You already listened to the podcast episode and so on.

730
00:49:08.109 --> 00:49:08.609
But

731
00:49:08.990 --> 00:49:15.329
it kind of flips the whole thing on its head. After the fact, you have to decide how how much was this worth to me.

732
00:49:16.105 --> 00:49:18.285
Was it like $5 or 50 or 500?

733
00:49:19.145 --> 00:49:20.445
Like, I've I've received

734
00:49:20.825 --> 00:49:27.250
a lot of value for for some people just because they read one of my articles or one of the chapters of the book or what have you,

735
00:49:27.869 --> 00:49:35.235
and and they found it so valuable that they they sent what I consider a lot of money, you know, a lot of value back. And of course,

736
00:49:36.655 --> 00:49:43.720
there there are other ways to provide value. That's that's the other part of the value for value model of this equation. Like, again, everyone is free to

737
00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:46.839
to remix the content, and I think

738
00:49:47.780 --> 00:49:48.920
there's, like, over,

739
00:49:49.234 --> 00:49:51.655
like, 60 people or something that translated,

740
00:49:52.915 --> 00:49:55.734
my book and and other articles that I wrote

741
00:49:56.250 --> 00:49:59.310
in like a 100 there's like a 150 translations

742
00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:01.630
in like, you know, countless languages,

743
00:50:02.170 --> 00:50:08.085
and that's another very nice way to give value back. Or like there are audio versions of my book

744
00:50:08.385 --> 00:50:10.165
that people did freely, because

745
00:50:10.705 --> 00:50:11.765
they could, and

746
00:50:12.065 --> 00:50:12.645
they thought

747
00:50:13.170 --> 00:50:15.670
it would provide additional value. And I agree.

748
00:50:15.970 --> 00:50:16.470
And

749
00:50:17.250 --> 00:50:18.550
I think there is

750
00:50:18.930 --> 00:50:20.470
so much untapped potential,

751
00:50:21.090 --> 00:50:22.630
that we can still explore.

752
00:50:23.635 --> 00:50:27.734
And, I mean, in its core, the ad model is basically a surveillance model too.

753
00:50:28.035 --> 00:50:30.510
Yeah. I not only that. I think also I

754
00:50:31.390 --> 00:50:34.290
I I agree in large parts with Adam Curry, who

755
00:50:34.910 --> 00:50:37.650
mentions over and over again that advertisement is censorship

756
00:50:38.155 --> 00:50:38.655
because

757
00:50:39.115 --> 00:50:42.255
you don't wanna bite the hand that is feeding you, you know,

758
00:50:42.715 --> 00:50:45.855
like, very few people talk badly about their advertisers,

759
00:50:46.555 --> 00:50:47.295
for example.

760
00:50:47.960 --> 00:50:48.460
And

761
00:50:48.760 --> 00:50:49.820
your self censor,

762
00:50:50.200 --> 00:50:51.800
of course, as well. You know, like, if there

763
00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:55.099
if some company is sponsoring you

764
00:50:56.244 --> 00:51:10.530
and this company is in the news, you might be able like you, you might not want to talk about it and so on. And so I agree, I think if you want to maximize freedom and if you want to maximize creative freedom, I think the value for value model is the way to go.

765
00:51:12.895 --> 00:51:14.035
And that's a wrap.