CD210: SOAP MINER - YOU CAN JUST DO THINGS

0:32 Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch. The show focused on actual Bitcoin and freedom tech discussion. The current fiat time is 07/28/2026 at sixteen hundred UTC. You guys will be listening to this in a few hours. I like to get it up right away. In Bitcoin time, the current block height is nine five nine nine nine four. Sats per dollar is 1,567 sats. And the Bitcoin price is $63,819.

1:14 As always, Dispatch has no ads or sponsors. It's brought brought to you guys by viewers like you. So thank you for supporting the show with your hard earned stats. I know money is tight right now in the throes of a bear market. Our easiest way to support the show is through podcasting two point o apps like Fountain Podcasts or through Noster apps like Primal and Wisp. Every show gets posted, hashed, and signed to Noster. You can find the Noster account at primal.net/citadel. The highest SAPs from last week's show was PGS design with 10,000 SAPs. He says BTC plus plus is the world dev glue man, Exclamation point. Mav 21, ride or die free except 10,000 sats. He said great rip. And then rounding it out in the highest apps, we have Liberty farmer ride or die free man behind hamster project bringing Noster to ham radio with 5,000 sets. He says great rips lately. Keep it up. Thank you freaks for continuing to support the show as always every link and every everything you need is that stilldispatch.com, or you can search still dispatch in your favorite podcast app. Open up your friends and family's phones, Search little dispatch. Press subscribe.

2:28 Let them get that sweet, sweet signal. Freaks. I've been, you know, it's I've been I've been feeling the vibe lately. We've been running with some, I think, some really great shows. This one is going to be no different. I'm really looking forward to it. But before we get there, just a little heads up on some planning. Next week, we're gonna have Crypto Cloaks on. I just got my first three d printer. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm really excited about the concept of it being like almost a physical extension of my robot slaves, my LLMs. And then we're gonna do Enclavia, which is a which is a a way to build and secure elements in the cloud. Anyway, freaks.

3:13 Great show lined up today. We have a ride or die freak. We have a legend among men. He keeps my family clean. We have the one and only soap miner. How's it going, sir? Hey. Thank you, brother, for having me on. It's a pleasure. I've been looking forward to this one. It took a little bit of coaxing. I know you this is your first podcast. No, I think it's my second or third. I'm not real, not real big on them. I love it. Well, you're, you're big on listening. You listen to Robert O' recap every week. Every week, brother. Been doing it for probably four or five years now. Love it. So soap, soap miner without doxing his age is a little bit older than myself.

3:57 I'm 58. Okay. We're docs. So we everyone needs to to give him credit for getting the the technical details set up to be able to join us for this podcast. He was a little bit concerned about it. Thank you, sir. Hey. I had to hell, it took it took me two months to set up my website. I had to watch video after video after video in order to do that. It's funny too, because now it'd probably be much easier with all the AI stuff, but it works. Yeah, probably. I haven't been able to tell. Yeah. Go on. Go ahead. No. That, I mean, that's part of what I want to go into here because I mean, your website's completely usable. You accept Bitcoin, the website's soap miner.

4:45 Soapminer.com. Yeah. If only the best money. If you want the best soap, you need to pay with the best money. How did soap miner doc how did this this business come about? What is the origin story of of SoapMiner? Well, you're going to get glazed a little bit here. Okay. But, during the, you know, when we had the COVID scam, you know, nothing better to do, sit at home. I was already a Bitcoiner. And, so just watching some YouTube videos and came across, you know, these soap videos and started looking at all the processed stuff, you know, the foods, the skincare, everything that corporations build nowadays is just pure poison for people. And, started watching these videos and started learning how to make soap.

5:39 Well, then, you know, like I said, I'd been watching you and Jeff Booth. Both of y'all were proponents. I mean, very big proponents of the Noster system. And, y'all both said something that kind of struck me as like, it's kind of like being the first into Bitcoin. Getting on Noster would be the first, similar, very similar. So I was like, okay, well, I want to make Bitcoin. I want to conduct a business. So I kind of put those together and I was like, okay, well, if I'm the first one, Noster, maybe I'll be the biggest soap miner.

6:19 And then you made it happen. Yeah. I mean, it's not real hard when you put your mind to it. I think a lot of the, I think a lot of people put obstacles in their way that aren't there. They out, they overthink it instead of just doing it. So, I just talked on there, figured out, how to actually get on Nostrad. Back then it was a little bit more difficult. Actually ended up, I actually used Albee to get on there to begin with because I had no idea how to do it. So once I hopped on there, very first person, you know, because I was like yelling into the void because when you first get on Noster, there's no, there's nothing, nobody to interact with. You have to get some followers or something, you know? So I was just yelling into the void. Hey, is anybody there? Anybody there?

7:14 Very first person to dance for me was Derek Ross. He's good like that. He held my hand. What did you like, do you like tag him in a post? You're like, do you exist? Do I exist? No, I didn't. No, I was just yelling into the void. I was like, Hey, is anybody He was just checking global and just Yeah, I guess. And he was like, yeah, dude, what do you need? Sure enough. Yeah. And after that, I mean, I just started getting followers. After a couple of days, I let everybody know what I was about, you know, started selling soap to people right over and over. Grinding it out.

7:56 I, so I didn't know that. I mean, your soap is fucking awesome. You Thank just you you self taught yourself that six years ago, and I guess have you've improved your your processes, I assume, over the years? Yeah. It's definitely an improvement from where it started at. If you look at some of the pictures that I first posted on Noster versus some of the stuff that I have now, you'll see a definite improvement. I think we all, I mean, I think we all keep growing as, you know, we keep doing stuff. I like to constantly improve on anything that I do.

8:39 That's why I've started making like, you know, deodorant, lip balms, things of that nature. I want to, I want to do it all. And how does that process work? That's, are you, it's YouTube videos? YouTube videos, man. I mean, I know a lot of people dislike YouTube, but man, they got some good stuff on there. I mean, that's where I found out how to stuff on YouTube is great. Yeah. Mean, it's it's great seeing the hand like, hands on. I learn better that way. Mhmm. It's hard to, like, read text and then try things. Like, if I if I if I need to figure out a new skill or something, it's good to see someone else doing it. Right?

9:19 Well, I think that's why Ben is so good. Yeah. Even though I do think it's it's a failure of a lot of the tools that requires, you know, long videos, at least on the Bitcoin side. Like, it's one thing if, you know, I'm trying to, like, figure out how to, like, repair something in my truck. Like, you're never gonna make that simple enough for it to just work, but I feel like a Bitcoin wallet shouldn't require a two hour YouTube video. Does that make sense? Or a Noster app, right? A Noster app shouldn't require a two hour YouTube video. You should just install the app and it should just work the way you expect it to for the most part.

10:03 Well, and that's, I think that's a lot of the problem that we have with a lot of the tools that Bitcoiners use. The vast majority of people are just like me. They're just not technically skilled. I mean, you said before that you're technically curious, but a lot of us aren't, you know? I just want it to work. I don't want to have to sit there and figure out how it works. I just want it to work. So, yeah, but I think we've come a long way. I mean, it's easier to get on Nostril now. It's easier to use the tools, even though I don't understand all the nips that go on. So, I mean, I still like Nostril. I mean, it's kind of fell a little bit into the doldrums right now, but think the bear market, the bear market hurts it because it's mostly Bitcoiners or there's a lot of Bitcoiners.

10:55 Yeah. It tends to be an echo chamber for us. The truth of matter is, I mean, the same thing happens with the larger socials. Right? Like, you just don't see it because there's non Bitcoin conversation happening at the same time. But Bitcoiners in general during bear markets, you see less conversation happening online. You tend to see less conversation happening in person. The conversation that does happen online tends to be like, more like lame, gay and hateful. Yeah. Like comes to the territory and Nastra is a microcosm of that, I think, has a lot of the same derivative issues, but it just gets amplified in a big way.

11:37 Yeah, would say, I mean, especially right now, there's a lot of hate going on, you know, obviously over the fight. But I don't know. I just want to get back to, separating state from money. Money from state rather. That's what I want to get back to. I'm kind of over the arguing over how it's supposed to be conducted. So on that topic, why Bitcoin only? Why don't you accept, dollars like everybody else? Because I think that we need to nudge the Overton window. I think that we need to make it the norm to use Bitcoin as money.

12:19 If you've got an out, then you're propping that system up. If you use dollars, you're still propping that dollar system up. If you don't use it, you're not propping it up anymore. And the less people that use it, the faster it dies. The more people that use Bitcoin, the faster that it propagates and the faster that it rises as the only currency in the world. That's my thought anyway. Accelerate. I also think when you talk about merchant adoption, there's a bunch of different ways that looks, but the, like, the strongest fundamental merchant adoption is is small businesses that want Bitcoin that only accept Bitcoin. And if you want their product, then you have to figure it out.

13:07 Right? That's exactly correct. And anybody that wants to start a business, let me tell you, Bitcoiners are the most loyal customers that you will ever find. If you create and you produce a quality product, people are going to keep coming back to you. They're just going to keep doing it. Bitcoiners want, you know, they want sound money. They want sound products as well. And when you produce that sound product, they're going to keep coming back to you. Agreed. I mean, and specifically here, I mean, on your website, you're using Zaprite.

13:52 Yeah. Which, I mean, first of all, disclosures is a ten thirty one portfolio company, but the, the, the premise of Zaprite was twofold. First off was it needs to be easier for people that want to accept Bitcoin to accept Bitcoin. And my guess is that's one of the reasons you founded and chose it. But the second reason it exists is most people that wanna accept Bitcoin also wanna accept dollars side by side. So it actually could be relatively easy for you to accept dollars and you're choosing not to, which I respect. I think that if we want to push the Overton window, we've got to nudge it that way. I don't see how we nudge it that way if we're using bimetalism to where you're If using both dollars and you want to move to a completely Bitcoin system, hyper Bitcoinization to where everybody in the world uses Bitcoin, then shouldn't you push for that instead of giving them an out?

14:57 Giving them an out. You're allowing them to use rails that we want to destroy. And if we want to destroy those rails, why would we keep using those rails? That doesn't make sense to me philosophically. It's actually kind of interesting. Right? Cause I feel like someone who doesn't already have Bitcoin or no Bitcoin, if they find your website, if they're recommended, right? If they're recommended your website, and they're told this is amazing natural, natural soap, and you should buy your soap from here, or they're gifted. Maybe they're gifted. So I've been giving your bars out as gifts. I think they're great gifts. And then they're so the nice thing is because it's not Fiat, so it actually lasts a while. But let's say, like, a couple months down the line, it finally runs out, and they want to buy some more. I almost feel like a non Bitcoin or would be like, okay, I got to figure out this Bitcoin thing and pay this guy in Bitcoin in order to get soap.

16:00 It's it's a it's a weird premise where I think you almost get more pushback for not accepting dollars from existing Bitcoiners. Do you agree with that? I do. And it's kind of weird to me. I've had quite a few people, you know, reach out even on, even on my posts sometimes when I say, you know, I only accept Bitcoin and they're like, well, that's retarded. Okay. Well, if you don't understand Bitcoin only, I don't know how to explain it to you. And what's their argument? They don't want to spend their Bitcoin, right? Yes. Well, if you don't want to spend your Bitcoin, then you have way too much fiat.

16:43 We can either make this money or we can just let it be this store of value asset, which will eventually decline in value over a period of time, because if you can't use it for anything, what's the point? Yeah, it's weird that that's lost on a lot of people. It's the same pool of money. If you're spending dollars instead of Bitcoin, that is money that could have been Bitcoin. And if you're spending your money, that's money that is spending and not saving. Right? It's coming from the same pool. It's a very interesting concept. I know there is a group that doesn't want the burden of paying and recording cap gains.

17:30 Man, also think it's also lost on people that you're expected to pay cap gains on profits. It's because you're holding Bitcoin instead of dollars. And so your money has increased in purchasing power over time, which is a wild thing for people to miss. Well, I'm not really gonna get into the tax situation. Fair enough. I think I think everybody should just do what they think is right and wrong. You know? That's fair enough. I saw to to a Bitcoin. I I also thought it was an interesting saw I mean, I see your comments all the time of people saying like, why why is it Bitcoin only? Why can't I spend the dollars? And I thought one of a good comment that a good response you had was this idea, like, if you feel so strongly about that, then you can go and install strike or one of these other apps and have your dollars convert to Bitcoin on your side instead of you doing it.

18:36 The thing I see is if you really call yourself a Bitcoiner and you're all in, then why aren't you all in? Why do you still have these behaviors and these things that you do that don't show that you're all in? I mean, either you are or you aren't. I know that we still have to live in the real world. I know that Bitcoin, we're not in Bitcoin hyperization yet, but we have to move there. Sooner or later, you have to put your foot forward and take a step toward that.

19:20 So sitting here, it's kind of like riding the fence to me, I would say. You're either all in on Bitcoin or you're not. It's one or the other. And so my thinking, and I could be crazy, I don't know, but I'm all in on Bitcoin. I'm literally all in on it. I'm I'm ride or die when it comes to Bitcoin. You can keep your half of your value, half of your wealth in dollars where, you know, they're melting away like an ice cube, or you can put it all into Bitcoin and use Bitcoin as money. And the faster that we do that, the more that the network grows. And when the network grows, that's when Bitcoin becomes worth more because it's demanded more.

20:13 And when that happens, it perpetuates it on a scale. What's the word on the exponentially. It exponentially perpetuates it on that scale. So the bigger the network, the more the network grows. So on and so forth, so on and so forth. And that's where I think that my head's at. I want people to use it as because I want that, like I said, that Overton window to be nudged forward. It's a bit of a chicken and egg, right? A little bit, yeah. Which is hard. I know it's difficult for people.

20:55 I mean, I got lucky. I stacked sats when it was cheap. Is it still cheap? Oh, it's still way cheap. Okay. But I got it was a lot cheaper a little bit, just to brag just a little bit. I did get it a lot cheaper. So, yeah. But, and, and, and I get it. You're trying to stack well for your family and you don't want to spend that. But at the same point in time, if you're not using it as money, when is it supposed to become money? Are we just going to stick with, oh, it's only a store of value?

21:38 I mean, it's kind of silly. It's kind of like gold nowadays. I mean, yeah, you've got people that hold gold, but do you see anybody using gold in a grocery store? Did you go through a phase where you were trying to spend gold coins with local merchants? No, never. Because there there have been attempts. I know people who do some kind of trade with it. Yeah. I know people that do some kind of trade with it. I mean, we have a here in New Hampshire, we have a large libertarian slash anarchist community up here. The Free State Project. Don't know if you've ever heard of it. Of course. Legendary.

22:25 So yeah, there's a lot of people in that that they have no problem with accepting silver or gold. XRP, Ethereum. Yeah. They went really deep on the shitcoins over there. I mean, part of it is because a lot of that community went to Bcash. I didn't want to dox you, but that's why I asked about the gold coins because I know where you're based. Oh, yeah. I'm in New Hampshire. I'm not worried about that. No. They're gonna come get me. They're gonna come get me. Good luck. So what is what is it what are your thoughts on, like, I get it was like the Square merchant adoption story of them enabling 4,000,000 merchants to I think a lot of them are by default. You know, the default converts it to dollars unless the merchant goes and changes it in their settings. But just the fact that we can go to 4,000,000 merchants now and pay a lightning invoice and get what we need. What your thoughts on that?

23:26 I think it's fantastic, honestly. Okay. Not too long ago, I wasn't really a big fan of Jack, but he's kind of changed my mind a little bit. I think it's really, I think it's really nice, especially when he came out with, when he helped, you know, with BitChat and everything. But I think it's, it's going to create more adoption and it's going to give people a way to adopt it instead of not understanding anything. It's going to be really simple for them. And the simpler that it's made for the common everyday person, because let's face it, technology is a little bit difficult for the vast majority of humanity.

24:08 So the easier that you make it for them, the more widespread it will be. I mean, you look back, you know, everybody studied the history of money in Bitcoin, just about everybody. Back in the 1940s, it was almost impossible to convince anybody to accept a credit card. I think it was the diners club that came out first. It was impossible to get anybody to accept it. What? You're going to just take a you're just going to swipe this thing and it's worth money? That doesn't make any damn sense. But look at it now. Everybody has a credit card.

24:52 It does seem insane on the surface credit cards. Yeah. They once in a while, those videos circulate of, like, the early days of credit cards where people were, like, dumbfounded on how they worked. And I think most people are dumbfounded on how Bitcoin works. I mean, they still confuse Bitcoin with all the shitcoins. Right. You think the Square merchant adoption story is a massive net benefit even though it's not Bitcoin only? I think it is. Because it gets people that would not be aware of it to be aware of it. And it gets merchants like I ask merchants all the time, hey, do you accept Bitcoin? I know they don't, but just to put it in their head.

25:41 Yeah. I've done that in the past too. Yeah. I mean, do you accept Bitcoin? It's pretty simple just to ask them real quick, to put it in their head. Went to the extreme. I went to more of the extreme measure. Know. But let me give you one of the reasons why I'm such an extremist on this. The soap business is a saturated business. Right. I mean, there are thousands upon thousands of individual soap makers out there. You can go to eBay, Etsy, all kinds of places and find them. Most of them still use poisons, but that's what they do. And I was watching this video. This is another thing that came into play when I first started, Came into play, well, you need to have a niche.

26:33 You need to have a specific niche if you're going to make it in this business, because it's so saturated that you're going to be competing with so many people. It's crazy. And that's another reason why I hopped on Noster only and accepted Bitcoin only. It's a niche. Right. I mean, that's how I found you on Noster. Yeah. Yeah. Bitcoiners are most, like I said, Bitcoiners are the most loyal customers you'll ever find. And once you get them, I have like an 85% to 90% retention rate for crying out loud. You know how good that is in a business? Yeah, that's wild. So I think people are sleeping on Bitcoin. I think that Bitcoiners that have some kind of skill, some kind of talent, if you're not starting your own business and just accepting Bitcoin for that, you're sleeping.

27:27 You're passing up an opportunity when you can be one of the first. There are going to be other soap makers that come in after me. There already are some, but they're not, you know, they're doing good, but if you do Bitcoin only, if you get in first, you're going to be able to build up, you're going to be able to build a following. And that's important. Right. No. That makes sense to me. I mean, I think the other nice thing about the nice thing about the Square merchant story is it kind of flips the chicken and the egg a little bit. Right? I mean, I I'm all in on Bitcoin. I prefer to spend Bitcoin.

28:16 Mhmm. But the overwhelming majority of my purchases have to be dollars. Like, I don't have a choice. So having all of a sudden more options and specifically what's nice is Square is very small business focus. So having more local small businesses where I can go and buy the things I need and pay with Bitcoin is like a huge bootstrapping mechanism, I think for the whole system. And then when you think about like small merchants like you, who are Bitcoin only, I mean, you make revenue from Bitcoin. And then obviously, you still need to pay for things to live your life. So being able to then go and it makes it easier for you to accept only Bitcoin. There's all these merchants that accept Bitcoin and dollars. Right?

28:58 Well, it does. But I try to spend Bitcoin wherever I can spend Bitcoin. Now, my wife, she does a lot of, she does a lot of the fiat, fiat mining. Right. She, does like Etsy, she gets furniture, repaints it, roughs it up, you know, distresses it. You know, she does all this fancy stuff with like different stuff. And she makes a lot of the, the Fiat and we use that. If in case I do need to use something, I generally will go to maybe bit refill and get a get a visa card or whatever card I need and pay for it in sets.

29:47 How much of it do you think is the lack of adoption of Bitcoin as money? I mean, it's a little bit different for you in New Hampshire because I know it's still there's still a lot of cash in the economy. Mhmm. But how much of it is people being used to, like, credit as money versus, you know, running credit card debt versus do you think there's a significant overlap there? Because I mean, you said you still, like, you'll go to a place and you'd be like, do you accept Bitcoin even though you know they don't? Like, one of the things that I always do is when I see, like, no cash accepted here, I always just take out cash and go to pay with cash just to remind them that they're making a mistake and they should accept cash. So do you think there's some overlap there? Like societal speaking, like the death of cash payments? Because for a lot of time, I think a lot of people speculated that like governments were gonna try and stop cash payments, but it's just people choosing not to mostly. Yeah.

30:52 It all comes down to convenience. And I mean, obviously, we've all been what's the word I'm looking for? We've all been shepherded into the roles that we play nowadays in the world. I mean, we've been lied to for so long by our governments and the corporations and everything else, which is a total another story, but they've shepherded us into this pen and we've accepted it all out of convenience. But if you really look at it, Bitcoin is becoming more and more convenient. And to me, Bitcoin is cash. Like I've always used this analogy, my cold storage, that's my savings account. My Lightning, that's my cash.

31:40 Right. So, it's pretty simple. I mean, it feels like cash, right, when you scan a Lightning invoice? To me, it's like And it feels so much better, to be honest with you. It literally feels good to use Bitcoin as money. Do it for yourself? How to yeah. I don't know how to explain it, but it does. It feels good to me. It feels honest. It's nice not having another person involved in the transaction. Yes. Nobody can control it. That's not just like a technical thing. It's it's there. There's something soul based that feels good about just transacting peer to peer. Peer to peer. Gotta love it.

32:32 Mean, That there's nobody feels like cash in a big way. Right? I hate asking for permission for anything. Fuck permission. So, and I mean, you get these people that want to wire money and it takes a week to wire some money to somewhere. Man, this is 2026. Why does it take a week as to Even where it worse is like the limits. Yeah. Mean, I had a contractor I had to pay with Zelle because they didn't accept anything else. And it was it was I think it was like $2,000 a day is what I'm limited to, which is insane. It's like, how can free people live that way?

33:14 Especially with the inflation the way it is and how much things cost nowadays. I mean 2,000 isn't that much anymore. No. It means absolutely nothing. You spend that any person in America spends that in a week. Yeah. I mean, it's a in this specific case, it was a contractor. Imagine doing any kind of contracting work that is, what am I getting done that is under $2,000? It's fucking wild. And what a lot of people don't realize, and I don't understand why, but a lot of people don't realize, look, I'm not trying to put a target on my back, but there's nobody that needs to know that you have Bitcoin.

33:55 Right. I don't know why people don't understand that. There's nobody that needs to know that you have Bitcoin if you do it the right way. So, I mean, you obviously made a decision. A lot of people know you you use Bitcoin. Why did you make that decision instead of What do you mean? To yourself. Look. Before I got into Bitcoin, I was already like an I was already like an ant cap. Okay? We we can tell.

34:36 It's not hard to read. I don't like governments. I don't like permission. I don't like being told what to do. I like to live my life and be left alone. So sooner or later, you got to either stand up, you can run and hide all the time and try to stay under the radar. But is that going to get you anywhere? Is that going to accomplish your goals? It's not. It's not going to accomplish your goals at all. Sooner or later, you're going have to put your foot forward and do what you have to do. Man, I'm 58 years old, man. I've got maybe good twenty years left. That's going to be about it. And then, you know, there's, hopefully it's longer, but you know, there's no telling.

35:19 Once you get to be over 50, you got to start considering that you're mortal. So you got to do something. Either you're going to fight the fight or your children are going to fight the fight. Yeah. I mean, I think becoming a father is even more so than an age on, on feeling mortality, like the shortness of life. Yeah. I mean, you watch how you watch how fast they grow. It's like, damn, man. It does not last long.

35:59 Are you just to be clear, are you smoking in black and mild right now? Yes. I am. Okay. It's audio only, so I need the the freaks to be aware. Do you think it's what are your thought this is completely random. What are your thoughts on the new, like, straight edge culture shift? Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, no drinking, no smoking, drink kombucha only type of thing. Hey, look, I'm very happy that everybody wants to be as healthy as they possibly can be. I think that's very, very important. But I also understand that you need some kind of vice every once in a while. I mean, look, you can go through your entire existence living the healthiest possible life that you can live, doing all the right things.

36:54 But do you enjoy doing it a 100% of the time? Are you enjoying your life? You gotta have some kind of enjoyment every once in a while. Is there any good, Bitcoin only tobacco purveyors? Not that I'm aware of. I feel like that's a good niche. That would be a good niche. We'll have to find somebody in like North Carolina or something. Yeah. I actually just started. My wife just started growing tobacco. Oh, really? Small scale. Like, we're not not producing, but yeah, you can just like grow tobacco plants.

37:40 Oh, yeah. Well, you can grow any plant. Of course. Yeah. So it's just something you don't really hear about that often. It's like one of her friends said that we should do it. I mean, nicotine for me is helpful. I like nicotine. Don't realistically care for the pouches, and I don't smoke that much, but I'll grab a black and mild every once in a while. Yeah. Get Just little bit of a weakness is nicotine, caffeine. Nicotine and caffeine. Yep. I I like beer. Beer is good. I like beer too.

38:25 Okay. We're on a little bit of a tangent. The okay. Back to Bitcoin, but also tangential. The last yeah. I mean, you were bragging a little bit about price you paid for Bitcoin. So I'm gonna guess that you've been around for a bit. The last cycle was very much dominated by the orange ties, a combination of ETFs and like the MSTR mafia, you know, all the MSTR clones and whatnot. What's your opinion on we so we talked about the square merchant adoption, you think that's a massive net benefit is our is people buying Bitcoin through ETFs?

39:06 Let's Yeah, let's isolate it. Because I think it's two different pieces. The MSTR piece and the ETFs are people buying Bitcoin through ETFs is like, does that help the movement? I don't think so. Honestly, I don't. I I know a lot of people argue with me because paper Bitcoin is not Bitcoin. The vast majority of people that are going to buy the ETFs are people that are scared to hold their own Bitcoin. They're looking for somebody else to manage their money. It's kind of like putting the money in the bank. It's not your money. It's literally not your money. They can not give it to you if they don't want to and get away with it. And a lot of people don't get that.

39:52 I think that if people would, of buying ETFs and all this other stuff, yeah, when it first came out, I was excited about it. I thought it was going to make the price go up. Just like everybody did. Everybody thought, oh, it's going to moon. It's to moon. It's going to moon. Yeah. Well, it didn't moon. Once they got ahold of it, what do they do? They manipulate the price. And that's why, in my opinion anyway, I think that the price is so depressed right now is because of Wall Street. Why? Because I think they're manipulating it behind the scenes. I mean, the OTC desk? Come on, man. It's not a free and open market.

40:35 But there's still there's still places where you can buy and sell real Bitcoin. There's plenty of places. Right? Oh, absolutely. I used to use Bisc all the time. What do you think what's your opinion on, like, KYC brokerages of real Bitcoin, like Strike? Look. I like Strike. I use Strike. But But, and I understand that they have certain regulations according to the law because nobody wants to go to jail. Jack doesn't want to go to jail because he's breaking the rules. I get it.

41:17 Do I like it? No. KYC, just like FinCEN and all the rest of it, it's bullshit. It's complete bullshit. It's my money. You don't have a right to know what I own. And there are ways to I mean, that's that's why I love that's why I love lightning. I really do. Because as you've pointed out numerous times, it's default private almost. Yeah. People don't appreciate it, especially for the sender. Yeah. So I like it. Are most of your transactions for soap lightning transactions?

42:00 Or All of them. I mean, you accept on chain too, don't you? No. All of only. I don't wanna have to combine all those UTXOs. Yeah. And, also, it's nice because you don't you don't have to know where the UTXOs came from or anything. Right. It it reduces kind of liability on your front. Mhmm. So, yeah, if you're sitting around combining a bunch of $30 UTXOs, it's just I'd rather just do Lightning. And once my channels get full, I just put it in cold You're running your own node? I actually use AlbieHub. Okay.

42:40 So it's a It's a hosted node. Right? It's in the cloud, Albihub? Yeah. You manage your own channels? No. I well, I use Albihub on my start nine. Okay. But do you manage your own channels? Yes. Okay. I'm I'm haven't used it, but I haven't used their new setup, so I don't know how it works. Yeah. I've actually got a couple of Zeus Zeus channels. Got it. I love Zeus. Yeah. They and, yes, they are good people. Yeah. Very good people. So just to go back, do you think services like Strike are a net benefit? They're like a stepping stone where ETFs you would not put in that category?

43:26 Yes. Strike is a very yes. Absolutely. Because at least you get to purchase Bitcoin, actual Bitcoin, and you can put it into your own wallet. Right. You are experiencing being responsible for yourself. And I think that's another big problem because as Americans, well, the world entirely, we've depended upon somebody else for so long, nobody knows how to be responsible for themselves anymore. Yeah. That's the core problem. Yeah. And they're scared to be responsible for themselves. Because what if I make a mistake? Well, then you're fucked. Don't make the mistake. Learn.

44:07 I mean, it's not that hard to keep stuff in cold storage. It's not that hard to learn lightning. Hell, even I did it. Yeah. I mean, that's impressive. If you can do it, anyone can do it. Exactly. I mean, I'm an idiot. You're running a full Bitcoin only business on and you're on Noster. You're in the live chat. You're zapping. You're running channels. That's impressive, bro. Appreciate that, man. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. It was a hard journey. I had to have a whole lot of people helping. I had to watch, I don't know, YouTube video after YouTube video after YouTube video to figure it all out. You can just do things. You can just do things. And I think that's another thing. A lot of people think that they let obstacles get in their way, but, man, just do it.

44:54 Take a chance. Figure it out. So you don't think ETFs are a stepping stone? You don't think people buy an ETF and then eventually move to real Bitcoin? I really don't. I think that people I was reading this post the other day where this, I forget who it was. He was in a taxi and the guy was like, yeah, I own Bitcoin. I own it through Charles Schwab or something like that. Yeah. No, you don't own Bitcoin, dude. You own paper. You own an IOU. And I think that a lot of people become comfortable with that. It's just like people that think that they own gold and they own paper gold. You don't own gold, you own paper gold.

45:34 It's not the same thing. So, I mean, I don't think that that's going to bring adoption as much as like Strike would, as much as Square would, as much as River does. I think that I think that the newer generation coming up, especially the kids that are gonna be, you know, brought into this world by Bitcoiners, they're gonna be the ones because they're gonna understand it. Yeah. I forget who said it, but I've definitely parroted it throughout the years. It was not an original thought by me. But the meme of, you know, it's it's still early. You're still early to Bitcoin.

46:17 The the question is always like, okay. Well, when are you not early anymore? And I think it makes a lot of sense that it's when most people are earning Bitcoin and spending Bitcoin rather than buying Bitcoin and selling Bitcoin. Right? Absolutely, man. I can't even tell you how much this has changed my perspective. Just accepting, just earning Bitcoin. It's literally a life act. I don't have to go through an exchange to get Bitcoin. I don't have to mine Bitcoin because I don't know how to mine. But I do mine Bitcoin by making soap. That's how I, that's how I mined Bitcoin. It's probably a better business, to be honest.

46:58 Well, I get paid each and every time, so I hit a block every time. Dude, mining is one of the most cutthroat, difficult businesses in the world, period. That's why I don't want to do it. I mean, I have my little Bid Axe, but, you know, as a lottery ticket, but that's about it. And that's great for like a learning experience and understanding Bitcoin works better. I love the Bid Axe project, but I've seen a lot of people get wrecked, you know, putting $50,000 or $100,000 into a mining op, not realizing the risks they're taking. It makes sense if if you're willing to lose some money and you want just no KYC Bitcoin and, and, and you didn't buy the miners with no KYC, Bitcoin, if you bought the miners with either KYC, Bitcoin, or cash, then that makes a lot of sense, you could actually mine for a loss, and it could still make sense, or you're like heating your house or something like that. But people who just like purely try and do it as a business, it's really, really difficult.

47:56 I see the future very far in the future, not anytime soon, but I see in the future to where everybody is going to run their own bid acts. They're going to run their own water heater, their own heater, air filter, whatever it is. And it's all going be based off of a miner. That's what I see in the future. The water heater makes complete sense. If you know how water heater works, like the water heater piece and every home has a water heater. Yep. I think it's brilliant. Who is it? Somebody else does hot tubs, I think, that run off of miners. Yeah. In Colorado. I forget.

48:36 Schnitzel, I think, does it? I don't know. I forget who does it exactly. Yeah. Forget. But hot tubs is a perfect they actually brought their proof of concept in an inflatable, inflatable hot tub and put it outside of Bitcoin Park, in the winter. It was pretty cool. But that makes a lot of sense to me. And I also saw somebody earlier today. Actually, we were talking what you just said earlier. It's a beer producer. They use the excess heat to make beer. That's awesome. Yeah. That is awesome. Mean They said Bitcoin? I'm sure. They must. It it I mean problem with alcohol is, like, shippings.

49:18 There's so much regulation around that shit. Like, even like, I love Ben Jessamine, but I think he can't accept Bitcoin and ship his wine. Like, he can do it hand to hand. Like, I've I've I've gone to his vineyard in Colorado and paid paid with Bitcoin to buy bottles from him in person, but I think there's a bunch of different shipping bullshit. Yeah. I just met Uncle. Yeah. I just met Ben a couple of weeks ago at Camp Nakamoto. Good dude. Real good dude. Oh, how was that? Let's talk about that. That looked like a vibe, man. I don't really get FOMO over Bitcoin events anymore. It was cool, I'm kinda sick of them, but that one, I I got a bit of FOMO for. It was it it was really laid back. Everybody was cool. Everybody was just there to have a good time, you know? Was on an island in New Hampshire?

50:05 It's on an island in Wake Winnipesaukee, which is a very, very large I think, yeah, That's awesome. Huge Yeah. I only went up there for a day pass because we only live about an hour and a half away. Cool. So, we went up there for the day pass and, yeah, met a lot of cool people. Everybody was chill. It was just a family friendly type situation. You know, the kids were running around, having a blast, swimming, canoeing. You know, it was fun. Ainsley So Costello was she performed a concert. Excellent. Yeah, it was nice. She's great.

50:46 I think I we orange pilled her through. I hate the term orange pilled. I think we got her into Bitcoin indirectly because of her dad coming to meet up at Bitcoin Park. Really? Yeah, don't hold me to it. But I'm pretty sure it's funny how those types of things compound in person. In person stuff is really important. They came Nakamoto. So are they doing that every year? Do you know? Yeah, every year. Do they own the island or was it like No, no, no, no, no, no. They lease it out. It's like a camp It's or already a campground. Yeah. And I think his name's Angelo.

51:27 Angelo, he's a Bitcoiner, but I think he's the one that's actually in charge there year round. But I mean, obviously being in New Hampshire, it's not year round. It's only, you know, for like six months out of the year. Gets cold. Oh, it gets real cold. The lake freezes. Yes, it does. Takes a special type of person to live year round, on a, on a island in a New Hampshire lake. It's pretty nice. It's a vibe. It is a vibe. That's awesome. I'm gonna try and make it next year. I'll bring the fam. Oh, yeah? Alright.

52:08 I'll come up again. I keep making babies. That's like my point of my friend now. So That's a good thing, dude. Thank you. I feel very blessed. Gotta leave you gotta give her a break every once in a while, man. I was like, she's aligned. She's she's very much aligned. I I would not happen without her. She's the one who does the majority of it. So Yep. Yeah. We only have a small part in it. Exactly. Yeah. They're awesome. I've been trying to reduce travel in general. Like, we do, like, I have to already do travel for important family things. Mhmm. Because you don't live near on your family. So that's already, you know, getting the kids to do that type of travel. So all other travel has gone by the wayside, specifically like Bitcoin specific travel, even though we are very much a Bitcoin family. My wife is very aligned.

53:03 Well, I mean, how many conferences do you need to go to, Matt? There's too many, man. Gotten so it's it's gotten kinda ridiculous. I mean, I used to want to go to the Bitcoin conference, and I'm not tearing down the Bitcoin conference. That's not what I'm doing. But it to me, it's become corporate and it just doesn't appeal to me anymore. I used to like the old vibes. You know? I go when I started when I first started paying attention to Bitcoin back in, you know, the late teens, it was fun, man. It had this attitude about it, and it's kind of lost it's kind of lost that a little bit to me. The vibes just start there. Not like they were.

53:44 But that comes with the territory, right? Like, Bitcoin's mature. It does. It does. And that's why I like the small events. The small events are always super high signal. Mhmm. Because the big events You don't have any ties at Camp Nakamoto. Yeah. The thing that I mean, the thing so I didn't go to the Bitcoin conference last year, but I went this year. And my justification was actually was I was relatively simple. It was, okay, it's the largest event in the world, and I can take a direct domestic flight, and be away from my family for only one night. So they do have, they do have that going for them. It's hard to, like, leave my family for three nights to do like a 200 person event.

54:32 Yeah. It's hard to justify in my head. So that's that's the conclusion I came to. But it was crazy being there was and I mean, the the the main guy in in charge of programming, Craig, like, he really does care about the freedom oriented elements of Bitcoin. And you see him trying, you know, but the crowd doesn't. Like, there's a big, you just see it in the crowd size. Like I, he put us up on main stage, basically, the panel was effectively, you know, is Bitcoin still free to money?

55:17 And we like, I don't know. Maybe it's like a 9,000 person 9,000 person main stage, something around there. Right. We probably have, like, 300 people in there. Meanwhile, it's like standing room only for sailor. So it's in a lot of ways, you know, I don't know. It's just it's just an interesting dynamic in in Bitcoin world right now. This is one of the reasons I don't like the ETFs. It's one of the reasons I don't like this. One of the reasons I don't really care for the Bitcoin treasury companies. I think that the vast majority of people that do that, they're they're still stuck in a fiat mindset.

56:02 They're still trying to, they're still trying to make more Fiat. They're, they're not trying to escape. They're trying to make more Fiat, which good luck, man. Making more fiat isn't gonna really help you out when that fiat's not worth anything anymore. And there's gonna come a day when there's not gonna be any amount of fiat that you can use to purchase a Bitcoin. It's interesting because like, this is the first real bear market that that group has been a part of in my, in a big way. Right? I guess, technically, they were Sailor got in in, 2020.

56:46 So technically, they were around for the FTX bullshit and that that bear market, but that bear market felt a little bit different. But they're definitely much they got much bigger since the last since that bear market. This was their first real one. And it's interesting because I will at least speak personally, my conviction in Bitcoin grows in bear markets, mostly because of the technology. Like, I'm not saying I'm in it for the technology. Like, I want my purchasing power to increase. Want my absolute want to be able to afford better things for my family. And this is a key component of it. But if that's the only piece, it's really hard to maintain. It's gotta be really hard to maintain conviction in a bear market if you're holding paper that you just want to see go up and Nvidia or whatever is going up faster.

57:39 Yeah. That's why I say they're still Fiat minded. They're still stuck in that mindset. They're not getting it kind of goes back to what we were talking about just a minute ago. The vibes have changed. And we've got all these people that are fiat with a fiat mindset, just wanting to make more dollars. That's that's literally all they're trying to do is just make more dollars. But hasn't that always been the case? I'm not worried about making more dollars. I'm worried about making more Bitcoin. No. I mean, okay. But there's always been a subset of Bitcoiners that that was the case for. I think it is. But then again, they're still stuck in that fiat mindset. Right. They're not really a lot of people say, well, if I hold Bitcoin, I'm a Bitcoiner. Yeah.

58:27 Technically, Technically, yeah. Are you really? Are you really a Bitcoiner? I mean, are you searching to separate money and state? Because you're not. And I think that we've lost that. Know what's main the main thing? Thing, you know what got me peaked about Bitcoin? Andreas Antonopoulos. I'm sitting there again, watching, scrolling through YouTube channels back in 2016. And I run across this guy, Andreas.

59:08 And this, you know, I forget what the actual name of the video was. I was like, what the hell is Bitcoin? So I clicked on it. He starts giving the stuff. He starts giving the, you know, there might've been 25 people in the damn audience, but he's sitting there explaining stuff to him. And he said to me, I was already an ad cap, and he was like, The government can't stop it. That got me hooked. Say no more. Seriously. Yeah. Okay, cool. Let's do it. But then of course, I didn't understand what Bitcoin was at that time. I went down the shithole rabbit or the shithole rabbit hole and, you know, started trying to mine Monero and Ethereum and all this other stupid shit.

59:58 But then finally, you know, I was just like, man, Bitcoin only. Once I came to that realization, it just made things easier. Makes Because was still stuck in that fiat mindset. I was just trying to make more dollars. That's all I was trying to do. And I think a lot of the people that first get into Bitcoin, they're still stuck in that as well. I mean, everybody gets into Bitcoin for a number go It's journey, right? Yeah. Everybody gets in it for a number go up, but then you come across freedom go up. That's a whole new rabbit hole right there.

1:00:39 And once you start going down that, it's over with. Can't go back. No. Can't go back to sleep once you're awake. But would you don't you think it would it's it's it's kind of inevitable. There was no avoiding this timeline. Like, there was going to be Bitcoin ETFs. Oh, of course there is. Look, I believe everybody that wants to own Bitcoin should be able to own Bitcoin. I think Sailor should be able to do what he wants to do. I don't hate Sailor, but I think you're absolutely retarded if you buy MSTR instead of the actual underlying asset.

1:01:25 Right. Is interesting. Like people miss that, right? There's two different pieces. There's anyone can use Bitcoin how they want to use it. So Sailor can use it as he wants, but that's that's strictly different than thinking that MSTR is buying MSTR is better than buying Bitcoin. You're conflating his right to own Bitcoin with actually owning it yourself. You're giving him money so that he can own it. You don't own it. All you're hoping for is more dollars. What are you gonna do with those dollars when he has all the Bitcoin? You think he's gonna sell it to you?

1:02:12 It just doesn't make sense to me, man. And like I said, I am a little retarded, so I could be completely wrong. Yeah. I mean, I'll own that too. The one thing I would want I do want to point out here is, like, I think the ETFs paper Bitcoin stuff, like that was all very much inevitable. Banks doing custodial Bitcoin stuff is all inevitable. The the main public Bitcoin companies are just selling stock to buy Bitcoin and not actually having other, like profitable business lines was not necessarily inevitable. That was something that caught me off guard. And we're here now. It is it is what exists. But I would, I would also separate those things. Like, think I think there will be very profitable Bitcoin businesses that are public that sell stock and have, you know, treasury reserves and Bitcoin operate on a Bitcoin standard. We haven't seen that yet, but I think those should be it's it's different than whatever MSTR and the clones are right now.

1:03:26 Yeah. I don't really pay too much attention to him anymore. I mean, I'll give credit where credit's due. Sailor is a fucking genius. I mean, I'm not gonna doubt that. He literally is he came up with a way to accumulate a lot of Bitcoin. Over 800,000 Bitcoin. That's impressive. I mean, that's that is insane. Think he'll surpass Satoshi? I mean looks like he's going to. And and one way or another. Right? I think he's also I mean, he said in the past that he supports a fork of Bitcoin that would freeze Satoshi's coin.

1:04:14 Yeah. No, I don't agree with that either. I think that's gonna be You think that's gonna be worse than BIP one ten? Yeah. I think BIP one ten is, you know, like a minor league soft softball game in the lead up to this. Yeah. In the lead up to the quantum seizing, freezing Bitcoin. First of all, there's a lot of technical people that support freezing. I think it's I think it's stealing Bitcoin. Yes. They'll call it freezing. Technically, that would be a soft fork. Mhmm. And the difference is they actually control a lot of hash rates. So a lot of the strategy that the BIP one ten group has been attempting would work really well if they had, you know, a foundry or someone like that supporting them with 30% of the hash rate.

1:05:06 So it's it's it's a lot more credible in terms of trying to force the network into a consensus change. Alright. What did you yeah. Go on. I was gonna say well, never mind. Go ahead. Well, I mean, you brought it up. What is your opinion of this whole BIP one ten thing? Here's the way I look at it. I'm not technologically capable of making a thorough analysis based on the simple But code and the there's a lot of people that I respect and I trust that they're telling me the truth. You're either very authentic in this space or you're not.

1:05:56 You can tell who's genuine and who's authentic versus the people that are not. To me, that's just a given. And nine out of 10 people that I trust are against it. They're telling me it's bullshit. They will actually sit down and explain to you why it is as to where the other side just calls you names, calls you whatever, ad hominem attacks. They don't have any real argument. And the arguments that they do come up with sound like complete nonsense, even to a nontechnical person like me.

1:06:37 So, no, I think it's a distraction. I don't think that it's going to take hold. Apparently, they're buying all their Hash rate. It's I don't see it happening. Nobody's signaling. Yeah. I mean, I think I mean, to some similarities to our previous conversation. I think, first of all, one of the cool parts about Bitcoin is anyone can fork out well whenever they want. And so I respect everyone's right to fork. No one has to give them permission. You can just fork.

1:07:18 Now, so that part, you know, is is literally what make one of the things that makes Bitcoin great is no one controls it, and anyone can fork without permission. Mhmm. My my disagreements have mostly been about messaging and what I think is very can be very misleading messaging. I think also the tactics have been for a while. Fucked. Yeah. Fucked up in a lot of ways. I I and it all it's it started and and to be clear, like, I didn't agree with Core's decision to change the default relay policy, which wasn't a consensus change. It was over their project, and they were also within their right to do that. But it all started with the personal attacks to Gloria specifically, which I thought were pretty fucked up. Mhmm.

1:08:10 And then the tactics after that, they're just never seemed like a real attempt to build any kind of consensus, which is what we've seen in the past. And it's very to be clear, it's very difficult to build consensus in Bitcoin, especially as Bitcoin matures. That's also one of the cool parts, right? Because if a small group can change the fundamental rules of Bitcoin, then they can change them from the worst strictly. So I think if you look at realism here, there was no real attempt for consensus. And what's going to happen is there will be a chain split. And the promoters of it are still saying in a lot of lot of they've been never being clear about it, that there will be a chain split, and we'll find out in two weeks.

1:08:55 The weird thing about Bitcoin consensus is you don't really know until after it goes active whether or not there's consensus. The proof is whether or not there's a chain split. But in the past, when there's been consensus changes, there's been a very deliberate over attempt to make sure there's consensus because the promoters wanted to avoid a chain split. And that was never really taken into account here. And then from a technical point of view, which I actually don't think it's really a technical argument. And that's why I sort of waste of time to usually argue on technicals. You don't like argue with trolls on in on technical arguments. I think, you know, I think Bitcoin is, is more or less ossified.

1:09:36 I don't think there's going be any real significant changes to Bitcoin. And I think reducing the functionality we already have on the Taproot side is a mistake. I think, you know, any kind of will there be is will there be spam? Yes. Will there be shitcoin adjacent stuff? Yes. But I think the flexibility is helpful if what you care about is Bitcoin as money. And then from the social social point of view, it's just been really frustrating because there's a lot of good people that I think believe they're doing the right thing. Yeah. And ultimately, Bitcoin is a movement of people.

1:10:16 And we need those people like we need those people more than ever. The if, if, if you believe that Bitcoin is the best money and should be the best money and should prioritize being the best money, and you want to use Bitcoin as money on a daily basis, you're my ally. We're supposed to be in the trenches together. And so it's been really frustrating and difficult for me. And hopefully there'll be some clarity that happens in two weeks when the activation is attempted and what I expect it to be a chain split, or if there is consensus, which I don't think there is by any, it's not even close, there not being a chain split and BIP 110 just gets activated.

1:10:57 But in the back of my head, I just assume that's not going to be the end of it. It might actually socially wise get worse after that. So we'll see how that plays out. I'm a very similar mind. I mean, I've got a lot of people I respect on both sides of the equation. Yeah. And, you know, honestly, I just want to get back to separating money from state. That's the argument. I let's all just get back. Yeah. Let's just all get back to Bitcoin as money. So I think some of them had become very emotional and they're allowing their emotions.

1:11:38 But, know, like I said, I mean, I can't argue it technically, that's just my reading on it. Yeah, I am. I do wonder how much of it is also just like a microcosm of current state of society. And just like, it bleeds over into Bitcoin because Bitcoin is people. That, and I think the bear market has something to do with people's emotions as well. Because I mean, from everything I've seen, there's always a, there's always a lot of infighting during bear markets. Always. Because there's no euphoria to overtake that.

1:12:20 You always want to blame someone else too. Yeah. It's a natural human desire to blame someone else instead of yourself for whatever Yeah. So, your problems yeah. But I think we'll get out of it. I think, somebody was saw something where, each and every time that they try to do a hard fork, right after it fails, we go into a massive bull run. Yeah. In this case, I mean, it's technically a soft fork. It's a restriction of the rules. There's only been one real attempt at a hard fork, which was Bcash, like a deliberate attempt. But a soft fork without consensus, which we've never actually seen at scale would result in a chain split, which kind of ends up in this similar situation as a hard fork, which is an intentional chain split.

1:13:16 And so, I mean, the question is, if you if that change if if the proponents of it actually want that chain to continue or not, I think they probably would. And so we'll have a chance. But now there is a separate thing happening next month, which is Paul Sports's e cash fork or a technically not I guess he's he's claiming it's not a fork. Are you aware of this? His drive chain thing? Yeah. He's like, no one's paying attention. But that will be effectively a new chain. Or I guess it's a more of a hard fork. But he's taking half of Satoshi's coins, but everyone else will get equivalent amount on his chain, which isn't e cash, but it's call he's calling it e cash, which is confusing. So that will also be happening in August. And then all of this does kinda line up with the cycles we've seen in the past.

1:14:10 So it could be a very interesting fall. I don't really, I try not to make price predictions anymore. Sometimes I get ahead of myself. I don't I don't even pay attention to price predictions anymore. I think they're so funny. Everybody, this is like, what, my third cycle now? It's also ridiculous. Knows what Bitcoin's going to be tomorrow. Exactly. Absolutely nobody. I don't care if you're Satoshi. You don't know where it's going tomorrow. The important thing is, I mean, especially if you're keeping it as your savings, is the expectation that with adoption purchasing power increases long term or like the lease doesn't go down. But I mean, I think that's probably the key conviction. And then after that, like everyone is just making up shit. It does it does do wonders for engagement.

1:15:02 I will say on the suits piece, it'll be interesting. This is the first time with major suit adoption, where they're going to have to navigate, they might have to navigate a bit one ten chain split is my expectation that they will. And then how they're going to deal with Paul sports is effective airdrop. So that, you know, will be a lot of sleepless nights for their shareholders and users and themselves on how they decide to to deal with that. And it's gonna probably not be the last time. So it should be that should be interesting component that I think people aren't really thinking about too much right now, but will be obvious in hindsight.

1:15:43 I think we're going to keep having fights over and over and over again. Oh, 100%. I mean, it's just a human condition and it's a leaderless system, right? So, it's like, that is the consensus mechanism in a lot of Yeah. Because none of us agree with each other all the time. No. And that if we had to all agree, then Bitcoin would be fucked. Oh, it'd be real fucked. It wouldn't work. But it is an interesting concept with chain splits. That is actually a direct incentive for people to self custody. There are are people that are sitting in ETFs right now. Yep. Or on the exchanges. Yeah. And they have no they have no agency over what happens and and they might miss out on some significant fork dividend.

1:16:33 Why I sleep so good at night. I'm not gonna lie. Self custody, that's another life act. Literally. People do not understand the importance of it. I don't have to worry about anything. I know when I wake up tomorrow, I still got my my corn. Do you have what's your opinion on and then we'll wrap. What's your opinion on, how do we increase self custody usage of Bitcoin? That's a hard one. I don't know. Like I said, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. People don't want to take responsibility for themselves. Look, I was scared to death when I first took self custody. Not gonna lie. I was scared to death. I don't know how many times I watched videos.

1:17:21 You actually did one that I watched, but it wasn't very good, to be honest with you. For the cold card wasabi one? For the cold, yeah, for the cold card. Yeah. And, thanks a lot. I'm just messing with you, dude. But, then I watched Ben, he did it a couple of times. I watched it over and over and over again. And I think the first one I got was a MK1 or MK2. Was one Yeah, of cold card. And man, I must have practiced it I don't know how many times. And then I sent just a little bit, like a 100 sats, just to make sure and everything. And yeah, it was scary.

1:18:02 So, I mean, it's become easier now. But yeah, when you're originally first doing it and you're dealing with a lot of money and you're responsible for it, and if you make one mistake, that is scary. So it goes back to personal responsibility. The easier that we make it for people, like now it's pretty simple. Well, at least to me, because I've been using it for a while. So, I could have a biased opinion on this. But it seems to me like it's become easier. It's definitely become easier. But I don't think the technical aspect is the hard part.

1:18:45 The hard part is the responsibility part, which is impossible So, to I don't know how we do that. Because I mean, it's the same thing as convincing somebody to hold a $100,000 worth of gold in their house versus in a vault in a bank. Right. For an ETF. You know? Yeah. A lot of ways, Bitcoiners are just going through the same arguments and debates and culture shifts as the gold people did. Yeah. So, what do you do? I mean, obviously, it's gotten a whole lot easier. And It's way easier to secure and reasonable to secure $100,000 worth of Bitcoin yourself and $100,000 worth of gold. Oh, absolutely.

1:19:38 But you're not to get that through to a lot of people. And I think we've got to overcome their fear. And fear is the hardest thing to ever overcome. And don't they have to do that themselves? They do have to do that, but we have to help them somehow. Everybody doesn't have balls. So I mean, it's a funny expression because the single craziest personal responsibility thing I've ever witnessed is something I didn't do is what my wife did, which is childbirth and also pregnancy, which is insane. Like our humans require it to survive.

1:20:26 We do it generation after generation. Yeah. If it was left up to men to have babies, we'd be dead a long time ago. It's one of the things that made me actually way more bullish on the movement, like the radical personal responsibility, freedom tech, Bitcoin. Self custody is so much easier than childbirth, raising children. We figured it out. We do it. I think it was I think a lot of people that have less of a problem maneuvering into Bitcoin are people that already had a liberty mindset. Yeah.

1:21:07 They already had this mindset. Like, they were self efficient. They could do things on their own. They don't need you. And it's a whole lot easier for them to conform to Bitcoin than it is for the average normie. Because you're not teaching them responsibility. If the responsibility part is the hard part, which I think is the case, then they just skip that step. And the truth of the matter is we mostly already have those people, The it's it's the it's it's everyone else that is we're we're hitting walls against. It makes sense. Right? Like, the early adopters of Bitcoin were all freedom oriented people. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

1:21:52 I mean, that's what it was about to begin with. I'd love to go back to that, there's only so many of those people, right? Those people are a subset of the global population. It's been saturated. I mean, I've honestly found it amazing throughout my journey in Bitcoin how many Bitcoiners are statist. Yeah. That just blows my mind. I would think that most of them would be, you know, handcaps, libertarians, something. You know? But to believe that to believe you know? I don't know. It's just some of the stuff that I've read from some of them. It's amazing. Like, they think they need daddy to tell them what to do. Most people are status. That's just the reality of the situation.

1:22:39 We're a small micro, you know, we're a small minority. Most people are status for the views they believe in. Right? They're anti state if, if, if the state is political disagree, they have political disagreements with the state. As soon as that changes, they flip back. Yep. There's a very small group that actually As long as you think the way is true. Freedom oriented. Yeah. Then it's freedom. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Okay, sir. This was a great rep. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the freaks will have a good time with it. I thought it was a it's it's a it's a special rep. It's good to get to know you a little bit better.

1:23:22 Do you have any final thoughts for the freaks before we wrap? Buy soap. Man, take self custody. If, if, if you've got a talent, if you've got a skill, you can turn that into Bitcoin. Quit letting the obstacles get in your way. Even if you're non technical like me, you can figure it out. There's plenty of videos. There's plenty of software out there that will help you. AlbieHub, Zaprite, you name it, it's there. You can even use Stripe as a business account. You can literally do it.

1:24:03 Is it KYC? Yeah. But at least you're earning Bitcoin. So just do it. It's not that difficult. Love it. You can just do things. Buy soap freaks. Soap miner dot com. If you use code RHR, you get a discount. Yep. It's great soap. I use I use the soap every day. Thank you, sir. And I'll thank you, sir. Freaks. Love y'all. Remember, crypto cloaks next week, we're gonna talk three d printing. Share the show with your friends and family. Search the little dispatch in your favorite podcast app. Stay on the stacks hats. Pace.