July 6, 2021
CD29: bitcoin privacy and security with @craigraw and @ketominer
EPISODE: 0.2.9
BLOCK: 689932
PRICE: 2943 sats per dollar
TOPICS: security, privacy, bip47, whirlpool, coinswaps, atomic swaps, taproot, lightning, full nodes, threat models, build processes
@ketominer: https://twitter.com/ketominer
@craigraw: https://twitter.com/craigraw
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40:22 - BIP 47 and its use for accepting donations
54:31 - Discussion about the load increase and version 4 of the spec
55:05 - Challenges in understanding and implementing the spec
55:25 - Discussion about the arguments against using the spec
56:45 - Concerns about tracking Bitcoin payments
58:31 - Importance of having a full suite of tools for safe implementation
58:53 - Comparison of BIP 47 payment code with the status quo
59:53 - Importance of thinking for oneself and building the spec
01:00:20 - Discussion about the culture of core development and the need for user-friendly tools
01:01:29 - Importance of better user-friendly tools for privacy
01:02:55 - Discussion about Taproot addresses and their potential impact on BIP 47
01:03:21 - Concerns about the load on public nodes and the need for efficient tracking tools
01:04:45 - Importance of finding ways to implement BIP 47 without overloading public services
01:06:19 - Discussion about the need for efficient tracking of transactions
01:09:45 - Importance of considering the impact of Taproot on BIP 47
01:13:43 - Discussion about the benefits of Whirlpool and the need for more wallet integrations
01:25:19 - Importance of incentives and the success of Whirlpool
01:35:14 - Discussion about the potential risks and benefits of adding non-coordinated collaborative transactions
01:46:42 - Importance of building additional methods for privacy
01:50:50 - The friction of bringing funds out of cold storage
01:51:33 - Trade-offs in Bitcoin privacy and security
01:54:35 - The importance of cold storage and hot wallets
02:42:31 - Being in it and having no regrets
02:43:09 - Number of users holding their own keys and using their own node
02:43:59 - Number of users holding their own keys, using their own node, and using Lightning
02:45:38 - Number of users using CoinJoin
02:49:12 - The long road ahead and the importance of privacy
02:50:11 - Bitcoin as the money people want to hold and spend
02:53:56 - The trend of caring more about privacy
02:56:54 - The future of privacy and custodial options
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:11:06 PM
Duration: 10994.024
Channels: 1
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Survey by CNBC,
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of equity strategists and portfolio managers, 44%
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say it will be below
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30,000
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and just about flat for the year. Others are more optimistic. 25%
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seeing it nearly $40,000,
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and an equal amount predicting $50,000.
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Now Bitcoin reached a high of nearly $65,000
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back in April. And right now, you can take a look at Bitcoin. It's trading under $33,000
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at about $32981.
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What do you think, Bec? Are you if you were part of that survey, what would you what would you predict? Oh, I have no idea. I mean, it's pretty volatile. Could go any direction.
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And 30,000?
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I don't know. I
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I wouldn't bet on this. How about you?
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I will take by the end of the year,
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I will, and maybe I'll be a cynic here. I will take the under, but if you said 10 years from now, I would take the over. Okay. Then I'll take the over just to play the other side.
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What's Joe say?
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch. This is episode 29.
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Special shout out to our ride or die freaks joining us in the live chat considering
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Euro 2020 is going on right now, Spain versus Italy.
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So I appreciate you guys choosing us over,
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that match.
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If you
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if if if you feel the need to go watch that, you can always watch our archives after the fact, but dispatch.com.
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They're hosted on bitcoin tv.com.
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Full downloads, no ads.
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You can even torrent if you want, via bitcoin tv.com, which is pretty fucking cool.
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If you're joining us on the audio feed,
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that was CNBC
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speculating on price because they have a survey of of,
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I guess, a bunch of rich people who think Bitcoin's going to be under 30 k at the end of the year.
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That formally marks bear hunting season for us.
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It's,
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it's just pretty interesting watching how quick
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people switch,
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from bullish to bearish in these cycles.
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It's
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it doesn't matter how many times you've been in the space, how long you've been in the space. It it catches you off guard every single time.
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So it will be cool to watch
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them get caught with their pants down.
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What else do I have for us? Today,
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we will be focusing on privacy and security best practices.
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I have 2 return guests here. I have Kito Miner of Noddle
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and Craig Raw of Sparrow Wallet.
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I think together, the 3 of us should have a very insightful conversation here about,
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you know, probably the most important thing for Bitcoiners today, which is is is getting your privacy and security in order,
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before the price goes up,
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and you end up securing a lot more money than you are currently holding.
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This is Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software. As I said earlier,
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this is dispatch number 29.
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We've been coming to you live for over 6 months now.
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And as I said earlier, all of those archives are available at seal dispatch.com.
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I want to thank all the freaks who continue to support the show and help keep it ad free, commercial free with no sponsors.
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That is how I want to continue.
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I am here with you guys, ride or die. Let's fucking make it happen. So I do appreciate all the freaks supporting the show.
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You can do that through citadel dispatch.com.
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You can also do that through our lnurl link on the QR code on the bottom left if you're watching the video stream.
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And my favorite way of having you guys support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps,
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which you can look up on new podcast apps dot com, which allows you to stream Satch directly to dispatch.
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Every every day, after we record live and I post it up to our RSS feed,
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I watch the stats stream in from listeners around the world who are using the podcasting 2 point o apps, my favorite one being Breeze.
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We also have a Sphinx tribe, which allows you to not only stream stats, but also we it's a private chat that runs through the lightning network, and you can donate in the in that tribe as well.
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So all links for that is also at sail dispatch.com.
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Once again, thank you guys for supporting the show. You are what makes dispatch unique and special.
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So with all that said,
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I want to welcome Keto Miner onto the show again. Keto, what's up? How's it going? Hello, Preaks.
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Fuck. Yes. And Craig Raw. How's it going, Craig? Yeah. Good, man. Thanks for having me back, man.
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Yeah. So, I mean,
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I love all of our conversations, and,
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I'm excited to have you guys both as as return guests. I I think
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the more your presence is on dispatch, the better for all for the whole audience and all of us including including myself.
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I think this discussion will be kinda wide ranging. We do have a decent amount of freaks joining us live here with the live chat, so I expect them to be throwing questions at us as,
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we continue,
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this conversation.
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I don't know really where we should start at first.
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You know, I I think I think maybe,
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we should maybe let's just start with a little check-in with Sparrow, Craig, because I feel like when you first came on dispatch,
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I don't even know what episode that was. I guess I should have looked that up ahead of time. But I feel like Sparrow,
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has come a long way since then.
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Yeah. It's just been building away.
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I don't know, Matt. For for me, it's it's, you know, I I don't really,
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think too much about how much it's growing. You know? It's it's not like there's an incentive model there where I get paid more
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the more people that you sort
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of use it, really.
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So for me, it's it's just a case of of trying to
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add the features that make sense and squash any bugs that,
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might come as fast as I can.
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But I'm I'm pretty proud of it. I think it's
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it's starting to,
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become seen as a decent option, I hope.
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So,
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yeah, I'm,
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I kinda just like,
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the fact that the vision that I had is now
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kind of a real thing in the world. And,
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yeah, it certainly gets me up every day, and,
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proud to be part of the whole sort of Bitcoin ethos that we're in.
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Awesome. I mean, off the top of my head, you know, I guess this is I mean, you said,
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you don't you don't really get paid the more users that are using Sparrow, which is true. But, one thing I did think of while you're just speaking there,
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is you did re you did add a donation page, I believe, since last time you were on dispatch.
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Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
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So, yeah, you can go to sparrowwallet.com/
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donate.
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And I'm very grateful for sure of any, you know
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you
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know, donations
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that I get.
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But, you know, it's it's not about that for me. You know, I I didn't, you know, begin this whole thing looking for that. For me, it's really just about trying to be trying to provide,
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a decent option mainly for people
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to realize the store of value that Bitcoin holds. Right? That's the number one use case. It's kind of like the the sort of email
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use case that the Internet had in the sort of early days that really brought it to the fore, and that's the number one use use case. I just kinda wanted to nail that and do it in a way that I thought was
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best.
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So
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that's kinda what drives me. Yeah.
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And then I guess the other thing that the other big addition that I saw I mean, they
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we could talk about the trade offs here a little bit.
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You almost kind of I felt like you added it begrudgingly, was that you added
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integrated Bitcoin wallet tracker so that you can just run Bitcoin Core on the same machine as Sparrow,
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for easier setup without an Electrum personal server. Right?
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Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, I've obviously got my,
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my sort of drawbacks,
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to doing it that way, but I think it's a valid approach. And, you know, as I as I I think I have, like, a pinned sort of tweet, which which says, you know, the ideas that I had at the start are not the ideas that I have now. You know, I kind of had this idea that it has to be the best way or, you know, don't even do it. And what I've realized is that you actually need to kind of take people on this journey
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where many people, I mean, are not gonna in fact, most people are not gonna start off with their own node and running
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servers behind the node, and it's just way too much. But, you know,
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job number 1 is to get people to get their coins off in exchange.
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So, you know, if you can just get people to download a noncustodial wallet, and even if they're using a public server, you know, you've done, like, 70, 80% of the job. You know? For me, that's critical. And then
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moving to a Bitcoin core wallet. Yeah. Sure. You know, Bitcoin core, the wallet does store all of the addresses in plain text. Not ideal for cold storage.
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But, you know, again, now you're at least private. And then moving to the Electrum server,
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that's just really getting to the stage where even if your server gets, you know, taken out of your hands or hacked or whatever,
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no one can tell what's going on. You know? So long so long as as your wallet is encrypted, you're good. So, yeah, I mean, I I did add that, and I sort of now see it as part of the journey.
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So that's
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that's kind of,
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that kind of happened in
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retrospect,
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but I think it's good it's there.
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Yeah. I mean, I think this is something that a lot of us,
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a lot of us that are obsessed with Bitcoin, we tend to get into the weeds,
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you know, especially on Bitcoin Twitter and on this show. I mean, this show is a, you know, a more technical focused show,
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for more dedicated Bitcoiners,
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and maybe them helping their friends and family is kind of like the target market that I've
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looked at for the the freaks and the audience here.
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And I feel like, you know, sometimes I just
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I'm sitting there, like, having a beer, and I'm just like, we get so far into the weeds, and 95%
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of people are just
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buying Bitcoin on Robinhood, and they can't even withdraw it if they wanted to.
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Yeah. I mean and and, you know, that's my my big sort of worry. Right? Is that if we don't get enough people to custody their own Bitcoin,
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we're gonna get rehypothecated
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Bitcoin. Right? That's gonna happen. I mean, if if the risk is
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minimal there'll always be some risk, but if the risk is minimal,
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then people are gonna do it, and they might get away, away, away with it. And that's that's the big worry to to to me. Right? That's what we have to avoid.
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So, you know,
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making wallets that are easy to use, that's kind of what that's the the sort of ethos here. Right? That's that's what I'm trying trying to do anyway.
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Yeah. And kind of trying, like,
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trying to get users to slowly improve themselves rather than expecting the world for them instantly. Right?
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Yeah. I mean, I I think that's,
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I think I was listening to rabbit hole re recap, and Mark Mody made made the point, like, just make a small improvement
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every day, and I think that that makes a huge amount of sense. Right? So just getting people to download
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a wallet to get their coins off the exchange,
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great idea. You know, that's that's what I just try and try and do. And if they're using a surf server, which reveals the x x XPub,
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You know, I don't worry too much about that because I know that further down down the line, once they're more, you know,
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familiar with what's going on,
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Hopefully, the soft software has taken them on a
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journey to to kind of get to the point where they're thinking, oh, maybe I should go off and buy myself a model. You know?
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That's that's kind of what I think we need need to do. It it can't just be landed on them on day 1.
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Right. And, I mean, this is something key to mind, or that you've been,
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I guess, battling your own demons with over at at Nautl.
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I mean, Noddle was originally
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I guess when Noddle hit the market,
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there really wasn't
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many
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of these dedicated node projects, and I I feel like Nodl kind of aim to be
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a more user friendly option, a a plug and play. You just buy this device, and it just works.
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Yeah. I I guess at the time we launched,
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Casa
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just launched,
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and,
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the only order on the market was, I don't I'm not sure I recall the name correctly, seed box or something. The the one which was, like,
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an Intel NOC with just Bitcoin installed
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on it, basically. And,
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and the company was supposed initially to make the the summary partnership, but they closed shop just before they they did.
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Yeah. And when I when I first started doing a full node, it was basically just to
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to run Bitcoin Core and go
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through Andrea's book and all the all the comments,
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because I didn't want to do it on my old computer.
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Back then, the blockchain was probably 60 or 70 gigs,
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and and you could run that on a RASP 0.
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Yeah. So, I mean, I feel like as a Nodl user,
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I had
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one of the original Nodl's.
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Did you
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you never really decided
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to go
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full grandma mode. Do you wanna, like, talk about why that decision was or, like, how you've had to deal with support requests and the different levels of tech levels of your users? I mean, I I think,
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you know, if if
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most of our audience here listens to pretty much every dispatch, I assume.
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At least that's what the download listen numbers look like.
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And we had, we recently had this
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this node round table,
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with
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the majority the overwhelming majority of dedicated node projects
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on for that show.
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And one thing that becomes very clear
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if you start looking at those different projects is they all kind of try and target different demographics.
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And on one side, you have, like, the Ronin Dojos and the Raspberry Pi Blitz. That's definitely a more advanced user set.
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You know, they,
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Raspberry Pi Blitz still doesn't have a GUI.
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They have, like, a command line style GUI.
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Ronin Dojo just recently added, you know, a a more sexy GUI, but it's definitely a more advanced user product.
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And then you have, like, the my nodes and the umbrells and the start nines that are trying to hold your hand as much as possible and be pretty
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and as user friendly as possible.
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And I feel like Nautle kind of sits in the middle somewhere.
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Yeah. Totally. We we we definitely sit in the middle. We we are trying to be more on the user friendly side.
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And
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at the same time, we are working on the advanced
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user mode in which you can just,
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use the UI to edit the configuration files and do whatever you want in them.
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But, yeah, we we just recently started working with, UX person to to to work on the onboarding process and,
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and have something much more user friendly, like, for the first contact.
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And, during this this setup process, you will be able, like, to choose if you want to run-in the user friendly mode or in the advanced mode.
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Yeah. But but yeah. Today, we are definitely, like, really in the middle. And,
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my my goal was not necessarily to be, like, very user friendly, but to,
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to follow some best practices, like,
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the probably the first lines of code I wrote was the installation script for Bitcoin Core, which verifies the signatures,
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and
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and gives you a precise error, like,
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you failed to download, failed to verify signatures.
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Something weird with PGP happened and so on. So that was, like, the first bricks. And,
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yeah. And we we are trying to do that as much as possible for everything.
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Because I feel like there's,
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I've I'm trying to
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put a connection here between what you guys have been doing at Nautle and what Craig has been working on with Sparrow.
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I feel like you guys
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both
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are kind of hitting that balance in the middle between
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trying to be user friendly and pretty,
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while also not trying to sugarcoat the important stuff,
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which I feel like is not
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a typical
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it's it's not it's not a typical result of what you would see in closed source, you know, Silicon Valley software,
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which is just constantly trying to be, like, the super polished UX and just hide everything from the user and hide all the trade offs from the user.
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So a lot of
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experienced
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dev teams, I feel like, try and go that Silicon Valley approach,
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but maybe
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what we really wanna see in Bitcoin land in terms of increasing that sovereign Bitcoiner base, that base that uses their own node, makes every spend a coin join, avoids KYC,
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helps their friends and family, tries to broaden the circular economy.
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Trying to increase that base
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is is not an easy process.
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It takes a lot of education, which is what I've been focused on is on the education side.
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But I feel like tools like both of yours, where it kind of bridges the gap, where it allows
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it doesn't it doesn't sugarcoat shit, but it's it's still very clean software. Do you know what I mean? Like, the the I feel like is was this an active,
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goal by you guys, or did you just stumble into that result? Because that's what I'm witnessing.
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Happy to have a go at that. Yeah, Matt. I I very much agree.
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You know, if you look at what the kind of
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Silicon Valley, VC world is trying to do, they're trying to take responsibility
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away
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from the user,
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make them into
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consumers
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of those those goods, right, which
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is, for me, like, very different from what we're trying to do here in
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Bitcoin, where we're trying to give people
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responsibility
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over their own money. Right? The the kind of value that they earn in their life.
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And for for me, that's that requires a very different mindset.
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So, you know, I look back at a at a career which has been spent mostly, you know, kind of building
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products in that
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VC kind of world, and
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I really feel it's quite different from what I'm doing now.
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So, you know, whether,
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you know, I can't say that I had a conscious sort of thought to go and build it this this way, but it certainly
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Sparrow is, you know, the design that I kind of wanted to build was to, you know, give somebody who really
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took that responsibility
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seriously and sort of wanted to
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take ownership
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of their life, of their money, not kind of put it into the hands of others who can do whatever they want want with it, and give them the tools,
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to be able to really know what's going on, to not not hide anything,
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but still make it easy enough to use so they don't have to go down to the command line or, you know,
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use UIs that are just very obtuse.
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So, yeah, I mean, I I think it's it's absolutely a different thing that we're trying to build build here.
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Yeah. And and I guess hiding too much stuff can be very fast dangerous. And,
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we, as you said, we are talking to people who want to take back the the ownership and the control over their money. And,
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they should realize that it's
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not easy,
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that there are risks, and,
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and they have to to do choices in educated ways.
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And, yeah, hiding too much stuff can just lead to mistakes and, and overconfidence.
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Yeah. I tend to agree,
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which is why I'm a
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big advocate for both of your, projects.
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So, I mean, with all that said, I mean, first of all, you know,
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classic,
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disclaimer.
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I don't want
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our audience to get overwhelmed when it comes to privacy and security.
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It is a it is a constant step improvement. You should just constantly be seeking to improve yourself. The number one thing is to realize
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how much information you're really leaking out there. And,
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the reality is
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is that we are leaking tons and tons of information on a daily basis,
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not just in Bitcoin land, but also in Bitcoin land.
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In Bitcoin, it's extra dangerous
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because real money is on the line,
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and the Bitcoin blockchain is presumably forever if we are correct.
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This chain will last
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longer than any of us will last,
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and it will have a record of all the transactions there. So mistakes you make today
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can be used against you in the future, and we should assume they will be used against you in the future.
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And if you mix that with
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the growing surveillance state both on
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the government side and the corporate surveillance side, and the mix together of those two entities, those two
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forces of surveillance
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together,
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you combine that with Bitcoin information, and all of a sudden,
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our financial transactions are an open book. So it's really important that Bitcoiners today start realizing how important this is and start taking steps to improve their processes.
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So with all that said, I mean, let's just dump jump into the weeds. I mean, I I have a list here of of things that that Craig mentioned that I would love to talk about.
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And then, you know, there's a bunch of different things we can talk about. But, before we get started,
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we had
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this we had this recent scare with Specter Wallet, another,
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another
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project that aims to interface with your node and use it with hardware wallets.
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So similar target market as Sparrow.
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What's really cool about the 2 of them is you can you can use them interchangeably,
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because they operate on the same standards. So if you're, for instance, running a nodal and you have it connected
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relatively painlessly.
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It also lets you,
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verify what each is showing you if you're running 2 separate machines, 1 with Sparrow
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plus,
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a node, whether that's Bitcoin Core or Electrum Server,
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and one with Spectre plus a node.
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So with Spectre, very popular project.
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My main go to guide in terms of getting started with self sovereign storage is using a cold card plus Spectre.
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Their Windows binary, they had a scare with. So during the build process of building that Windows install file, that Windows application file,
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the dotexe,
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they were afraid that they did it on an infected machine, and it carried a Trojan.
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So we've talked about on the show in the past
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about how
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users should verify PGP signatures to make sure that, for instance, Craig actually built the Sparrow binary that you're installing.
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But in this case, if the Spectre vulnerability was true, which it turned out to be a false alarm, it wasn't,
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verifying the PGP signatures alone wouldn't have done anything for you. It wouldn't have protected you because,
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the the Spectre developer actually did
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build that that binary,
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and signed it with his actual PGP key.
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It just had a a they they just thought that maybe a Trojan had slipped into that build process, so it wouldn't have protected you from the on the PGP side.
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So I'm curious, you know, both of you guys shipped software. I I guess we'll start with Craig.
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How do you feel like, did this
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wake you up at all to your build processes? Is this is this something that you're actively considering before it happened?
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How do you view, like, your relationship with your users in turn I mean, obviously, they could build from source,
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but the overwhelming majority of users are probably not building from source and probably will never build from source. So how do you view that as
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a when you threat model that out for you and your users?
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Yeah. I mean, you know, look, I I think, first of all, I just wanna say, I think
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spec Spectra guys handled it very, very well. You know, they were fully upfront with it and kind of pulled, you know,
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pulled that particular
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binary down until they found that it was the
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actually, sort of a false positive from some antivirus, I think.
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You know,
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I think what you need to do is is to really just make sure that the build environment that you're using is is sort of clean. You know? I think that that's
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really clear. And and, you know, that's some something which, you know, I think I'm doing pretty well, but I can always be better.
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So just making sure that,
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you know, the the kind of machines that that final binary is built on just have absolutely zero,
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chance of well, as as little chance as you can get of some kind of infection trying to creep in. You know, I think from a,
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in the particular world
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of Java that I work in,
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it's gonna be pretty hard because the Java builds,
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are
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just
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extremely,
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I I don't know how how to say it, but they're just very,
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sort of,
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bay bay basically put 2 together get get get get get that in a way that it's really hard for anything alien to be able to come in there.
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That's not to say that it couldn't happen, and I'm certainly trying to dream up ways in which it could.
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But I think, you know,
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largely, it's just really about trying to make sure that the build process that you have
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is good. The second point is really trying to make sure that whatever dependencies
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you are,
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you sort of need to bring in in order to do the work that you're doing,
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that you have a very clear idea of what they are. So, you know, when
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I build you know, look at something that I'm I need it need need to add some kind of a a
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new
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software,
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you know, loop to add
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to be able to get a new
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feature in, what I do is I see, well, what else is that thing trying to bring in? And if it's too much, then I just won't use it.
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And it's really just about it's not only about trying to get the size of the binary down, but it's also just about trying to make sure that you understand that when that binary is built,
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you know what size it should be. And you can look through it and just kind of eyeball it and say, okay. Yes. This makes sense. All of those files are correct.
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So those kind of things is also things that you can do.
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You
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know? Yeah. I I think,
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ultimately,
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you know, the more people that look look at it, the more people that build,
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ultimately getting deterministic
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builds is a great step step forward as well.
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We're all trying to work towards that, but companies like Apple make it very hard.
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So, yeah, those those, I guess, are my my sort of headline thoughts, Matt.
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So, I mean
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yeah. I I guess there's well, first of all, Kito, you have anything to add there?
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Yeah. I would just I would like to go back a little to what actually happened. Like,
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when when I've seen this alert,
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my first thought were like,
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it's pretty unlikely it's not a false positive, actually,
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because the two ways it could have happened is all the build machine itself being infected. And if you check the signature of this,
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of what matched,
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in this antivirus, which I remember correctly, it's around somewhere. So you usually notice,
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that on your computer.
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And second possibility
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would be someone
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else uploading,
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malicious binary
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to the repository
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with
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correct signature, which is even less likely.
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And it's not like we don't have a history of open source projects, especially crypto and privacy related that trigger,
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antiviruses.
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So
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yeah.
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Of course,
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from outside, it was impossible to to judge 100%,
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but it was pretty,
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the probability was pretty high that it was a false positive for especially coming from 1 or 2 antiviruses
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out of 20 different ones.
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So
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so Greg mentioned,
423
00:31:15.655 --> 00:31:19.515
deterministic builds, reproducible builds. So that was my second point. Like,
424
00:31:20.750 --> 00:31:23.409
we so we have not that we don't don't deliver
425
00:31:24.590 --> 00:31:30.135
almost any binaries. It's all interpreted code, so you can read the code that is actually executed anyway.
426
00:31:30.995 --> 00:31:31.815
But if
427
00:31:32.275 --> 00:31:34.455
we were to deliver any binaries,
428
00:31:35.955 --> 00:31:36.455
deterministic
429
00:31:36.835 --> 00:31:42.030
builds are definitely the way to go because you can, like in your build chain, you could have
430
00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:43.150
2 totally
431
00:31:43.770 --> 00:31:46.030
separate environments, 2 different computers,
432
00:31:47.315 --> 00:31:50.695
building the binary and compare it at the end. If it matches,
433
00:31:51.875 --> 00:31:57.000
then you can assume your computers are fine and the binary is fine. If one of them is different,
434
00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:01.640
you can assume that one of these 2 computers are doing something strange.
435
00:32:03.575 --> 00:32:07.115
Also, like, try to avoid using any
436
00:32:07.735 --> 00:32:12.794
stuff pulled from external repositories, not only dependencies. But for example, if you're using,
437
00:32:14.120 --> 00:32:15.500
like, a a base OS,
438
00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:18.620
docker image in your build,
439
00:32:19.399 --> 00:32:22.154
this image can very well be very,
440
00:32:23.255 --> 00:32:24.315
can be compromised.
441
00:32:26.774 --> 00:32:30.680
I don't recall exactly, but I think there were some occurrences when
442
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:31.660
some
443
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:39.420
some, images on the Docker Hub, like official images, were were compromised with something already that that's already happened.
444
00:32:40.415 --> 00:32:43.535
So, yeah, like, really control your your strip
445
00:32:44.335 --> 00:32:46.755
your build environment to the bare minimum.
446
00:32:48.740 --> 00:32:54.600
For example, when I'm building even for tests, like BTCPay server on my local development machine,
447
00:32:55.140 --> 00:33:00.745
I run the build itself in a virtual machine, which is, like, the base OS with nothing in it,
448
00:33:01.525 --> 00:33:05.625
on the on the dot net and the source code, and and I build it there.
449
00:33:08.410 --> 00:33:16.105
Yeah. Like, it had just have full control. And and as Craig said, like, on Windows and Mac, obviously, it's more complicated than on on Linux.
450
00:33:18.005 --> 00:33:20.664
I mean, most people if you want to have signed binaries.
451
00:33:21.365 --> 00:33:22.745
Most people should start
452
00:33:23.419 --> 00:33:26.399
at least playing around with the cheap Linux machine.
453
00:33:27.019 --> 00:33:30.399
You know, get a cheap Dell or ThinkPad or something install.
454
00:33:31.155 --> 00:33:33.575
I like Pop!OS as a as a learner,
455
00:33:34.115 --> 00:33:35.015
Linux distro,
456
00:33:35.795 --> 00:33:38.935
and we start trying to get comfortable with it. You know, maybe
457
00:33:39.650 --> 00:33:43.510
with the ideal goal long term to make that your dedicated Bitcoin machine.
458
00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:47.350
I think we're doing it again, and we're gonna do it many times
459
00:33:48.105 --> 00:33:55.085
in this, discussion where we jump into the weeds very hard, and I want to be able to pull us back every time we do that
460
00:33:56.779 --> 00:34:00.080
to go to to to talk about something that's actionable
461
00:34:00.620 --> 00:34:02.720
for the average user to protect themselves.
462
00:34:04.755 --> 00:34:07.894
You know, the multisig approach that both Spectre and,
463
00:34:08.675 --> 00:34:10.535
Sparrow have focused on
464
00:34:11.075 --> 00:34:13.734
do seem to mitigate this concern a bit.
465
00:34:15.310 --> 00:34:15.810
Obviously,
466
00:34:16.190 --> 00:34:17.490
if there was a Trojan,
467
00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:20.930
you would still have a privacy risk,
468
00:34:21.395 --> 00:34:32.360
which Craig talks about a lot of times, specifically with the the default setup that a lot of people use on Spectre, which I'm guilty of recommending as well, where you run core directly on the same machine, so you do have,
469
00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:35.980
all your all your transaction
470
00:34:36.375 --> 00:34:41.355
information is on that machine, so you do have a privacy risk there. But if you're using multisig,
471
00:34:42.695 --> 00:34:45.355
with hardware wallets, the different hardware wallets,
472
00:34:46.050 --> 00:34:47.030
and you're verifying
473
00:34:48.130 --> 00:34:48.630
the
474
00:34:49.090 --> 00:34:52.710
transaction information on on your actual devices
475
00:34:53.410 --> 00:34:54.710
before you sign them,
476
00:34:55.654 --> 00:34:57.515
it would mitigate this risk. Right?
477
00:35:00.214 --> 00:35:06.569
Yeah. As long as you can do that. I I I think I'm not sure all hardware wallets allow you to do that yet.
478
00:35:08.069 --> 00:35:15.425
Maybe Craig can can help me on that, but I I think some of them just don't show anything meaningful when you do not play sig.
479
00:35:16.365 --> 00:35:18.065
Yeah. They look. They're gradually
480
00:35:18.530 --> 00:35:23.830
getting there, and I think they're getting there pretty fast. I've just had a a sort of a new batch of the
481
00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:25.590
the sort of newer ones
482
00:35:25.994 --> 00:35:28.415
arrive at my my desk, and and definitely
483
00:35:28.955 --> 00:35:31.215
is becoming a must have. So
484
00:35:31.835 --> 00:35:34.815
those that don't do do it well, I think, will need to,
485
00:35:35.275 --> 00:35:37.100
up their game pretty fast,
486
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.120
in order to stay
487
00:35:39.580 --> 00:35:40.320
in the game.
488
00:35:41.500 --> 00:35:44.400
But at a high level, what what we're trying to do there,
489
00:35:45.495 --> 00:35:46.955
as a broader community
490
00:35:47.255 --> 00:35:50.715
is is reduce single points of failure. Right? So even if,
491
00:35:51.655 --> 00:35:53.515
Spectre or Sparrow is compromised,
492
00:35:54.790 --> 00:35:57.050
you would you would basically need
493
00:35:57.750 --> 00:36:01.450
a combination of that and a plurality of your hardware devices
494
00:36:02.310 --> 00:36:03.450
and user error
495
00:36:04.155 --> 00:36:07.375
in order to lose funds in that kind of situation. Right?
496
00:36:07.675 --> 00:36:10.095
That's right, Matt. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
497
00:36:11.180 --> 00:36:16.880
So, yeah, that that's that's the sort of that's the sort of goal, that we all try to work, you know,
498
00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:18.240
towards,
499
00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:20.720
and we don't have to get there on
500
00:36:21.325 --> 00:36:22.704
day 1 as we say,
501
00:36:23.085 --> 00:36:23.585
but
502
00:36:23.885 --> 00:36:24.865
so long as
503
00:36:25.244 --> 00:36:30.410
people are kind of learning all the time about the different factors that go into that,
504
00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:40.915
it's definitely something that can can be done. I mean, I'm I like to say that if you if you are using single sig with a gold card, you basically understand
505
00:36:41.295 --> 00:36:42.435
70, you know,
506
00:36:42.950 --> 00:36:46.410
percent of what you need to to know to move to a multisync.
507
00:36:47.349 --> 00:36:53.135
It's not that much hot harder. And I'm not trying to push people there. I think that people need
508
00:36:53.515 --> 00:36:59.290
to kind of get there in their own own time, but, it's often made out to be like this giant leap
509
00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:06.750
beyond a single sig set of setup. And I I don't think it really is anymore. It was for sure, but it's not so much anymore.
510
00:37:08.234 --> 00:37:10.015
It can definitely be reached.
511
00:37:11.835 --> 00:37:14.815
I mean, if anything, the more difficult aspect is
512
00:37:16.420 --> 00:37:23.720
then going and securing all those individual backups. Right? It's just more things mentally that you're you're you're dealing with,
513
00:37:25.065 --> 00:37:29.325
But at the same time, that's kind of a a feature, not a bug. Right? I mean, if,
514
00:37:30.425 --> 00:37:32.845
if any of those individual backups get compromised,
515
00:37:33.190 --> 00:37:37.370
it's better, obviously, than if you have a single sig backup get compromised.
516
00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:49.305
Yeah. So the way I I like to think about it is, you know, if you have a mental load anyway because you're going to bed and you're kind of worried that the single seg setup is sitting there with all the cash on it,
517
00:37:50.589 --> 00:37:52.289
and you are concerned,
518
00:37:52.990 --> 00:38:00.805
and you're kind of keeping you up a little bit at night, you know, you whenever you think about it, you're like, I got a bit of a worry there. Price has gone
519
00:38:01.185 --> 00:38:12.859
up. Then you're really carrying that kind of mental load, and multisync just takes that away. Right? Now you're thinking to yourself, there's like zero chance. You know? I've got these backups. They're in different locations.
520
00:38:13.505 --> 00:38:32.235
You know? I've the you know, somebody could come here right now and demand it all, and I can just say, sorry. You know? It it can't happen. You know? So for me, it's it's really about trying to balance the mental load, and and you'll know when you are carrying that that sort of load and when you need to seek out the peace of mind that multisig can bring.
521
00:38:33.255 --> 00:38:36.395
Right. And and just to be clear here, I mean, in terms of accessibility,
522
00:38:37.570 --> 00:38:39.650
the fact that I have both of you on is,
523
00:38:40.210 --> 00:38:41.430
fantastic because,
524
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:43.910
I mean, if
525
00:38:44.365 --> 00:38:48.305
if if you're a new user and you buy a Nodl and you plug it in,
526
00:38:48.765 --> 00:38:52.385
and you update it, and then you connect it to, ideally, a dedicated
527
00:38:52.845 --> 00:38:53.345
laptop
528
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:55.099
or desktop
529
00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:58.140
with Sparrow Wallet running,
530
00:38:58.599 --> 00:38:59.579
that's a relatively
531
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.019
easy accessible setup process, and all of a sudden,
532
00:39:03.825 --> 00:39:05.285
you have a more secure,
533
00:39:07.984 --> 00:39:10.964
a more secure way of using Bitcoin than the 99%
534
00:39:11.265 --> 00:39:15.520
of people out there. And and the fact that that exists, that capability exists,
535
00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:18.559
in a relatively accessible way
536
00:39:19.275 --> 00:39:24.734
is absolutely understated. I I think people don't realize how far we've come. You know, 2 years ago,
537
00:39:25.835 --> 00:39:28.840
that kind of setup would have been way, way, way less accessible
538
00:39:33.560 --> 00:39:35.000
So I have a bunch of
539
00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:40.025
I have, like, 6 different people who privately messaged me telling me,
540
00:39:41.065 --> 00:39:41.785
that I shouldn't,
541
00:39:42.185 --> 00:39:42.685
schedule
542
00:39:43.705 --> 00:39:45.725
SIL dispatches during Euro 2020.
543
00:39:46.290 --> 00:39:47.570
As far as I'm concerned, freaks,
544
00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:52.790
Euro 2020 using Bitcoin Tuesdays to to do games,
545
00:39:53.385 --> 00:39:54.905
is a state attack. So,
546
00:39:55.305 --> 00:39:57.005
that tournament will be over soon.
547
00:39:57.305 --> 00:39:58.365
Uh-huh. Like I said,
548
00:39:59.145 --> 00:40:03.690
the archives are always available. You you are missed if you're not in the live chat right now.
549
00:40:04.470 --> 00:40:06.490
The live chat is what makes this great.
550
00:40:07.109 --> 00:40:07.430
But,
551
00:40:08.069 --> 00:40:10.065
there's really nothing we could do about that, and I'm
552
00:40:12.065 --> 00:40:13.125
just glad that we're still having these great conversations about Bitcoin.
553
00:40:15.025 --> 00:40:15.265
The
554
00:40:16.305 --> 00:40:21.240
so let's let's jump into this. So so so we have BIP 47 on the list to discuss.
555
00:40:22.100 --> 00:40:22.840
BIP 47,
556
00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:26.840
is this reusable payment code,
557
00:40:27.540 --> 00:40:28.200
that allows
558
00:40:29.245 --> 00:40:29.745
individuals
559
00:40:30.285 --> 00:40:31.025
to accept,
560
00:40:31.485 --> 00:40:33.505
the main the main use case to me,
561
00:40:34.365 --> 00:40:37.025
and the samurai guys will disagree with me, is
562
00:40:37.405 --> 00:40:37.905
for,
563
00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:52.505
easily accepting donations. And I had Gladstein, Alex Gladstein from, chief strategy officer of HRF last week, and it's a lot of it's it's work that I've been doing with him on the sidelines in terms of getting activists
564
00:40:52.805 --> 00:40:55.305
to be able to easily accept Bitcoin without running,
565
00:40:56.510 --> 00:41:02.450
you know, without running, quite frankly, without running BTC pay server on some, you know, server somewhere,
566
00:41:03.390 --> 00:41:11.845
which a lot of times requires KYC, has overhead costs, has its own privacy concerns that you have to deal with in terms of trying to obtain a server
567
00:41:12.145 --> 00:41:14.165
without KYC ing yourself. I know,
568
00:41:14.580 --> 00:41:17.720
Keter miner has a side project that allows you to do that,
569
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:19.240
using Bitcoin,
570
00:41:19.620 --> 00:41:23.800
but that's not really my point here. The cool thing about bit 47 is that you have this,
571
00:41:25.505 --> 00:41:31.925
you just have this text string that you can post in a Twitter bio or something like that, and people can donate to you
572
00:41:33.009 --> 00:41:34.869
without reusing the same address.
573
00:41:35.329 --> 00:41:37.029
Now, unfortunately, the biggest
574
00:41:37.410 --> 00:41:43.295
trade off that we have to deal with with BIP 47 right now is is the only ones who have implemented it.
575
00:41:43.835 --> 00:41:45.295
And if you don't have wide
576
00:41:45.915 --> 00:41:47.454
wallet support, specifically,
577
00:41:48.315 --> 00:41:49.375
is only Android.
578
00:41:50.140 --> 00:41:59.360
As far as I'm concerned, people should if they're an iPhone user, they can should consider switching from iPhone. But if they don't wanna switch from iPhone, they should buy a cheap Pixel and use it as their dedicated Samuari device.
579
00:41:59.865 --> 00:42:00.925
But as
580
00:42:01.385 --> 00:42:04.525
a project at Civil Dispatch that's trying to
581
00:42:05.945 --> 00:42:08.685
really adopt the ethos of free open source software,
582
00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:10.950
and not have advertisements,
583
00:42:11.410 --> 00:42:13.910
we're heavily donation based, and
584
00:42:14.370 --> 00:42:18.870
we're constantly seeking out alternatives to how we can accept donations.
585
00:42:19.555 --> 00:42:21.895
And one of the issues to me with BIP 47
586
00:42:22.195 --> 00:42:25.015
is that if I post this payment code,
587
00:42:25.395 --> 00:42:28.275
there's only one wallet where people can donate from. And I I'm
588
00:42:29.040 --> 00:42:34.100
so instead, I've opted for lnurl. I've adopted, you know, these podcasting 2 point o apps,
589
00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:39.235
but they have similar issues. You know? There's not all lightning wallet support it.
590
00:42:39.855 --> 00:42:47.079
So what we really wanna see is we wanna see broad adoption of all these standards, but let's. We're focusing on bit 47 here, which is on chain,
591
00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:48.680
allows you to do,
592
00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:50.839
you know, many donations,
593
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:52.280
many payments
594
00:42:52.825 --> 00:42:56.445
to a known text string without reusing addresses.
595
00:42:58.345 --> 00:43:00.765
I know, Craig, you've been pretty
596
00:43:01.609 --> 00:43:03.869
decently outspoken about considering
597
00:43:04.970 --> 00:43:06.190
integrating it into
598
00:43:06.490 --> 00:43:12.345
Sparrow Wallet. I'm curious on what your thoughts are there around it and and whether or not you think it's a good fit for Sparrow.
599
00:43:13.365 --> 00:43:18.030
Yeah. So, I mean, let me take a step back, Matt, and and first of all, just kinda talk about,
600
00:43:18.910 --> 00:43:20.350
what I actually wanted to do,
601
00:43:20.750 --> 00:43:21.810
here was just,
602
00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:24.530
help the freaks understand,
603
00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:29.345
you know, why I think we're only seeing it in one wallet to date. Right?
604
00:43:29.984 --> 00:43:33.365
You know, because there's been a lot of kind of rumors
605
00:43:34.625 --> 00:43:38.470
and ideas going on around, you know, why have so few wallets,
606
00:43:39.330 --> 00:43:40.790
built this thing thing in.
607
00:43:41.090 --> 00:43:49.595
So, you know, here's the perspective of a dev who's been trying to do it, trying to look look into it. And I've just kind of wanted to without,
608
00:43:50.295 --> 00:43:50.954
you know,
609
00:43:51.330 --> 00:43:57.830
without trying to say it's good or bad or anything, actually, just trying to try to say, like, here's the challenges that are,
610
00:43:58.610 --> 00:44:02.885
incurred when you try and and build against this particular spec.
611
00:44:03.984 --> 00:44:08.540
In order to do this, I'm gonna have to dive into a few technical details, but hopefully,
612
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:14.060
it will be not too bad, and I won't go too deep into it. Let's go deep. I'm down.
613
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:15.260
Alrighty.
614
00:44:16.015 --> 00:44:18.035
So with bit 47,
615
00:44:18.414 --> 00:44:22.835
you've got what are now four versions of this particular spec.
616
00:44:23.730 --> 00:44:27.430
We're gonna go through the different versions because I think it's useful,
617
00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:30.790
and I think it's valid. You you kind of have to understand
618
00:44:31.164 --> 00:44:35.105
where this thing has come come from in order to understand where it's going.
619
00:44:35.644 --> 00:44:36.704
So version 1,
620
00:44:37.085 --> 00:44:39.105
which was released back in 2015,
621
00:44:39.484 --> 00:44:40.865
so it's been around a while.
622
00:44:41.470 --> 00:44:44.770
So we we have these as Matt described, we have these payment codes.
623
00:44:45.390 --> 00:44:45.890
Everyone
624
00:44:46.270 --> 00:44:48.369
who has a BIP 47
625
00:44:48.910 --> 00:44:51.325
capable wallet can get a payment
626
00:44:51.865 --> 00:44:55.645
code. And with that payment code, somebody who wants to pay you
627
00:44:56.265 --> 00:45:13.915
can send a special transaction with a certain kind of output called an op return up output. And if they do that, then basically what happens is that there's this private wallet, which is your wallet as the owner of the BIFF 47 wallet. It's like your own kind of a new wallet that you would create.
628
00:45:14.775 --> 00:45:15.835
But it's only
629
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:23.980
visible, or at least the addresses are only visible to the person who's trying to pay you, to the person who created this output, which is called a notification
630
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:24.940
output.
631
00:45:25.455 --> 00:45:27.555
Right? So that's what that's basically how
632
00:45:28.415 --> 00:45:29.875
the 47 works.
633
00:45:30.735 --> 00:45:31.235
Now,
634
00:45:32.175 --> 00:45:35.960
the first thing to be aware of is that when you create this output,
635
00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:48.165
that that sets this whole thing thing up, you are probably going to have some change from from it because this particular output has no real value attached to it. It's just kind of got a very minimal
636
00:45:48.465 --> 00:45:51.765
amount to it. So that change amount that gets sent back
637
00:45:52.839 --> 00:45:57.580
has a certain privacy risk attached to it. Okay? So if if you are now,
638
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:04.675
using that change output and you use it to pay someone else, they can then look back at that change output,
639
00:46:05.055 --> 00:46:08.900
link it back to the payment code that you sent this
640
00:46:09.299 --> 00:46:17.945
notification output to, and then they can tell that you want to create that link. So there is a bit of privacy leakage there. And what the spec advisers
641
00:46:18.245 --> 00:46:35.035
or suggests at least is that that change output should be coin joined. Now that imply I mean, they they don't say it must must be, but you can see that's why they would advise it. Now that implies that a wallet needs to have access to a coin joint, you know,
642
00:46:36.135 --> 00:46:36.795
kind of,
643
00:46:40.855 --> 00:46:41.335
sort of
644
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:49.320
piece of collaborative transaction tool Yeah. The the wallet. That's it. That's it. So, you know, so that's one thing that, you know,
645
00:46:49.855 --> 00:46:57.170
write kind of off off the bat. As as you begin, you kind of realize, okay. Well, that's something that we'll have to think about how we're gonna build.
646
00:46:57.730 --> 00:47:00.790
Now once this link has been created,
647
00:47:01.890 --> 00:47:03.270
what happens is
648
00:47:03.650 --> 00:47:04.150
that
649
00:47:04.505 --> 00:47:06.685
the that you, as the receiver
650
00:47:06.985 --> 00:47:07.885
of the payments,
651
00:47:08.345 --> 00:47:16.510
basically have this new wallet. And this new wallet, you have to then have a set of addresses, which which you create up to the gap limit, which is usually, you know, sort
652
00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:17.790
of 20.
653
00:47:18.330 --> 00:47:20.349
And that allows you to receive,
654
00:47:20.924 --> 00:47:23.585
you know, the then the the the
655
00:47:24.765 --> 00:47:28.385
payee, the person who's trying to send you the donation,
656
00:47:28.924 --> 00:47:29.984
can then create
657
00:47:30.339 --> 00:47:37.400
an address, which you will then receive the man money for. And nobody else in the world will be able to know that they then
658
00:47:37.785 --> 00:47:39.405
sent, you know, that,
659
00:47:40.665 --> 00:47:41.645
sort of Bitcoin
660
00:47:42.665 --> 00:47:43.965
transaction to you.
661
00:47:44.505 --> 00:47:45.005
Now,
662
00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:52.140
every time that you receive a new notification output that someone creates this link, you get a new
663
00:47:52.745 --> 00:47:55.645
wallet with a new set of addresses attached to it.
664
00:47:56.345 --> 00:47:56.845
Now
665
00:47:57.465 --> 00:48:07.170
there's some interesting things to think think about when you're trying to build against against this. Right? So so all HD wallets, all kind of BIP 32 wallets,
666
00:48:07.549 --> 00:48:16.984
you currently have to support 2 lists of addresses. You have to support the receive addresses and the change add addresses. Right? And these are lists that grow in length over time.
667
00:48:17.285 --> 00:48:23.400
So adding one of these BIP 47 wallets, whenever you create this link is basically a new list.
668
00:48:24.020 --> 00:48:24.520
And
669
00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:30.984
this has this kind of list of addresses that have all the UTXOs that hang off off them is
670
00:48:32.005 --> 00:48:32.744
the major,
671
00:48:34.484 --> 00:48:36.585
kind of data store and
672
00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:43.440
server kind of load that you have to place on any wallet. So it's it's quite a big thing that you're now taking
673
00:48:43.820 --> 00:48:52.795
a number which is bound in a 2, and you're making it into a longer kind of list. Right? So that's some something that a wallet dev needs to think about.
674
00:48:55.040 --> 00:49:00.579
For example, right now, if you are using the current Eletris build and you open,
675
00:49:01.075 --> 00:49:03.655
you know, 3 or 4 decent sized wallets,
676
00:49:04.035 --> 00:49:05.815
it's gonna really start to battle.
677
00:49:06.355 --> 00:49:09.895
Now the new version, which is coming out, is gonna make that better, but it's still
678
00:49:10.210 --> 00:49:11.830
something to think about because
679
00:49:12.210 --> 00:49:16.470
what makes it struggle is the number of subscribed addresses that you have.
680
00:49:16.770 --> 00:49:22.355
Every subscribed address, whenever there's a new transaction that comes in on the mem mem mempool,
681
00:49:22.655 --> 00:49:28.940
it needs to be matched against that particular wallet. And you're trying to see, well, does this apply to my wallet or not?
682
00:49:29.339 --> 00:49:31.760
And the more of those addresses that you add
683
00:49:32.060 --> 00:49:37.200
is the more load that that server has to bear. So it is something that you need to think think about.
684
00:49:37.515 --> 00:49:41.535
And you also, as the owner of the BIP 47 wallet, have no
685
00:49:41.835 --> 00:49:45.454
control, obviously, over the number of times somebody opens
686
00:49:45.835 --> 00:49:59.155
one of these these these kind of links. Right? So you can almost assume it's infinite. Right? Because you're gonna if I publicly post if I publicly post my payment code, you know, with Samurai, like, just called PayNIM,
687
00:49:59.775 --> 00:50:02.195
like, an attacker can just come in and
688
00:50:02.910 --> 00:50:05.170
create a bunch of different relationships. Right?
689
00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:15.065
Correct. Correct. So, you know, I'm not trying to say it's bad or good. In fact, I can't see any other way way to do it, but I'm just trying to say these are the things that one has to think about
690
00:50:15.445 --> 00:50:21.500
when trying to build against against against against it. But, you know, the the last thing I want is that somebody fires up,
691
00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:22.620
you know,
692
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.915
Sparrow wallet, and the thing just doesn't doesn't work. Right? That's that's,
693
00:50:28.315 --> 00:50:31.935
not a situation which I can have. So I I do need to consider,
694
00:50:32.315 --> 00:50:34.655
as I build this, how do I deal with that?
695
00:50:36.040 --> 00:50:43.020
Then getting back to the fact we're still on version 1 here, we're still looking at the old legacy paid to pubkey hash outputs,
696
00:50:43.395 --> 00:50:47.975
which means that if you are using a nice native Seg Segwit wallet,
697
00:50:48.355 --> 00:50:59.980
you will have to receive on these old style addresses. That means that your Sparo wallet now has to either understand different script types, or you just need to actually, when you set up your wallet, have an old
698
00:51:01.215 --> 00:51:04.915
script script script type and incur the higher fees that comes with that.
699
00:51:05.295 --> 00:51:08.435
So those are a few thoughts around version version 1.
700
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:18.540
Now version 2, we can skip past because it uses bloom full full filters, which we don't really have in Bitcoin anymore, so,
701
00:51:19.145 --> 00:51:21.244
we can move on to version 3.
702
00:51:21.625 --> 00:51:24.525
The nice thing about version 3 is that it takes away this,
703
00:51:25.145 --> 00:51:29.450
this kind of op return output, which was a big part of why
704
00:51:29.830 --> 00:51:31.050
I think people didn't,
705
00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:47.640
go for bit 47 at the start. And what it replaces it with is a bare multisig 1 of 3 output. And what that means is that you have basically a transaction output that you can slide into any other transaction that you have. So you don't have to create a specific,
706
00:51:48.020 --> 00:51:49.400
you know, kind of very
707
00:51:49.700 --> 00:51:50.760
easy to identify,
708
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:51.955
you know,
709
00:51:52.435 --> 00:51:56.615
link, you know, instead, you can just add it to any other
710
00:51:56.915 --> 00:51:57.655
kind of
711
00:52:00.290 --> 00:52:00.790
Bitcoin
712
00:52:02.450 --> 00:52:03.350
transact act action
713
00:52:03.810 --> 00:52:04.790
that you're making,
714
00:52:05.090 --> 00:52:06.150
and it can appear
715
00:52:06.615 --> 00:52:12.235
fairly I mean, these outputs are not common, but at least it's not something completely unique.
716
00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:21.960
However, there is an issue with this. Right? And I didn't actually realize this until I kind of read the spec about 3 three times.
717
00:52:22.405 --> 00:52:25.865
But one of the issues here is that you actually need to listen
718
00:52:26.325 --> 00:52:33.520
for a key within the output script. You can't kind of listen to the output script as a whole. You have to listen to just a part of it.
719
00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:42.635
Now server product protocols are just not generally designed for this. So Bitcoin Core can't do this today. Electrum Servers can't do this today.
720
00:52:43.095 --> 00:52:44.875
What the author, Justice,
721
00:52:46.215 --> 00:52:46.715
has
722
00:52:47.290 --> 00:52:47.730
basically,
723
00:52:48.170 --> 00:52:51.710
you know, his kind of approach to this is to use BIP
724
00:52:52.090 --> 00:52:54.350
157, which is the BIP for complex
725
00:52:54.675 --> 00:52:57.255
block filter filters, the successor to bloom.
726
00:52:57.795 --> 00:52:59.255
And he's basically
727
00:52:59.715 --> 00:53:01.655
created a enhanced
728
00:53:02.560 --> 00:53:03.220
blue an
729
00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:04.580
enhanced filter,
730
00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:07.380
which allows you to then look inside
731
00:53:08.080 --> 00:53:14.895
the script. So it's almost like saying, here's the middle part of the address, and we we just wanna match on
732
00:53:15.275 --> 00:53:20.880
characters, you know, 10 to 20. Right? We don't want to care about the other ones on either side.
733
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:21.839
And,
734
00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:25.859
that's quite a challenge. Now as far as I know, and I might be wrong,
735
00:53:28.145 --> 00:53:32.725
this particular filter has not been added to Bitcoin Core. So if you wanted
736
00:53:33.185 --> 00:53:33.845
to go and
737
00:53:34.465 --> 00:53:35.365
do this today,
738
00:53:35.665 --> 00:53:37.045
I'm not sure that you could.
739
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:41.099
Again, this is, you know, just me trying to figure it out. So,
740
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:45.339
this is one of the issues trying to
741
00:53:45.855 --> 00:53:47.795
overcome with version 3.
742
00:53:48.575 --> 00:53:52.595
Assuming that we can do this with version 3, you then have
743
00:53:53.520 --> 00:54:03.195
these lists of addresses, which you then need to listen for again. But in version 3, you need to listen to 3 different script script types. You need to listen to pay to pubkey.
744
00:54:03.735 --> 00:54:11.550
You need to listen to pay you need to listen to the the kind of native seg seg segwit version that we all hopefully use today,
745
00:54:12.010 --> 00:54:18.734
and you need to listen to pay to pub pubkey hash, which is the old version 1. So you now have not only
746
00:54:19.035 --> 00:54:21.295
an unbounded list of these,
747
00:54:22.234 --> 00:54:23.214
lists of
748
00:54:23.595 --> 00:54:24.815
of of sort of
749
00:54:26.600 --> 00:54:34.780
addresses that you need to listen to, but you multiply that by 3 as well. So that does increase the load. Now I was a bit concerned about this, so
750
00:54:35.205 --> 00:54:36.745
Justice and I had a chat,
751
00:54:37.125 --> 00:54:42.185
and it resulted in version 4 of this spec of the bit 40 47
752
00:54:42.740 --> 00:54:46.360
spec, which is now has a different different name, but it's the same thing.
753
00:54:46.740 --> 00:54:47.960
And that is basically
754
00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:50.840
where one only has to listen to a native
755
00:54:51.185 --> 00:54:51.425
Seg
756
00:54:52.145 --> 00:54:55.365
Segwit list. So now we're just down to, basically, the kind of 1
757
00:54:55.825 --> 00:55:02.790
the the kind of unbounded list, but there's only 1 script script type rather than 3. And that's kind of where I am,
758
00:55:03.890 --> 00:55:11.695
trying to figure this entire thing thing out. I hope, you know, I kind of hope that that's help helpful for people to understand that these things are not
759
00:55:12.155 --> 00:55:12.655
necessarily
760
00:55:13.115 --> 00:55:16.335
easy to do. It's been one of the more challenging
761
00:55:16.715 --> 00:55:23.250
areas that I've been trying to work work on to try and figure it out. So, yeah, I hope that made some sense.
762
00:55:25.224 --> 00:55:26.505
No. I mean, that was extremely insightful.
763
00:55:28.585 --> 00:55:33.325
I appreciate you going through your thought process in terms of integrating it with Sparrow.
764
00:55:34.279 --> 00:55:35.019
I mean,
765
00:55:35.720 --> 00:55:36.779
from my understanding,
766
00:55:38.279 --> 00:55:39.900
a group of core developers,
767
00:55:41.160 --> 00:55:42.984
in the BIP 47vone
768
00:55:47.684 --> 00:55:50.265
said that they they don't think it should be implemented,
769
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:59.059
and that the main two arguments that I've heard or my understanding of them, my basic understanding of them is is the the first main argument is
770
00:55:59.565 --> 00:56:00.545
is that that notification
771
00:56:01.005 --> 00:56:03.905
transaction is an inefficient use of block space.
772
00:56:05.405 --> 00:56:09.490
We are streaming mempool pool dot space right now, a live view of mempool,
773
00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:11.570
of of mempools,
774
00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:17.494
at least their specific mempool, but I know my mempool also matches what they're showing right now.
775
00:56:18.675 --> 00:56:19.655
And, you know,
776
00:56:20.035 --> 00:56:21.895
we're sitting at Bitcoin at
777
00:56:22.250 --> 00:56:22.990
over $30,000.
778
00:56:24.650 --> 00:56:27.550
Adoption is supposedly higher than it's ever been, and,
779
00:56:28.410 --> 00:56:33.695
mempools are completely empty right now. So I don't think that block space is a very good argument
780
00:56:34.315 --> 00:56:36.175
against using it. And if anything,
781
00:56:38.234 --> 00:56:46.980
if bit 47 helps create a a fee market, then in the future, you know, you can have more efficient versions of it. And then the second thing was,
782
00:56:49.565 --> 00:56:51.825
you could have a I think they called it
783
00:56:52.125 --> 00:56:55.105
mystery shopper attack where someone sends,
784
00:56:56.290 --> 00:56:57.270
Bitcoin UTXOs
785
00:56:57.890 --> 00:56:58.630
to your,
786
00:57:00.369 --> 00:57:01.190
payment code
787
00:57:01.490 --> 00:57:03.510
and then tries to track those payments,
788
00:57:03.924 --> 00:57:14.060
which to me is just inherently an issue with accepting any Bitcoin payments publicly. I mean, if I on BTC pay server, that's the number one way that you would try and deanonymize
789
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:17.100
someone's BTC pay server if we're gonna go from
790
00:57:17.560 --> 00:57:21.740
a a framing of an activist or something in an authoritarian country,
791
00:57:23.215 --> 00:57:26.755
accepting Bitcoin donations through a public BTC pay server,
792
00:57:27.455 --> 00:57:29.555
I would expect their government to send
793
00:57:30.200 --> 00:57:31.259
Bitcoin donations,
794
00:57:31.960 --> 00:57:39.819
fake Bitcoin well, real Bitcoin, but but, you know, Bitcoin donations into that into that BTC pay server and then try and track
795
00:57:40.315 --> 00:57:42.095
you spending those and maybe
796
00:57:42.635 --> 00:57:46.015
watch for a user making mistake in terms of
797
00:57:48.029 --> 00:57:58.665
combining UTXOs after the fact and using the common in input ownership heuristic to to tell that if if if there's 2 inputs, 3 inputs in a transaction, they're probably all owned by the same person,
798
00:57:59.204 --> 00:58:02.665
which kinda goes hand in hand with what you said earlier, which is almost like,
799
00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:10.720
if you wanna implement this in a safe way, you need to have a full suite of tools. You need to have
800
00:58:11.505 --> 00:58:20.725
coin control with labeling where people can actually choose which UTXOs they spend and and keep track of them, and then collaborative transaction tools, whether that's
801
00:58:21.200 --> 00:58:23.779
uncoordinated 2 person coin joins, pay joins,
802
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:26.420
or
803
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.099
or or or coordinated coin joins, something like Whirlpool.
804
00:58:31.285 --> 00:58:33.065
So you you kinda need to have
805
00:58:33.445 --> 00:58:35.704
all the different basis, but even if you don't,
806
00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:45.350
do we agree that that, you know, receiving payments through a BIP 47 payment code is strictly better than
807
00:58:45.665 --> 00:58:51.205
than the status quo, which is probably just posting an address and reusing that address over and over again.
808
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.260
Yeah. Of course, Matt. There's no
809
00:58:55.880 --> 00:59:06.694
no doubt. Yeah. Look. I mean, I've I've seen, you know, people, you know, quote what the, you know, some people said way way back back when. I I I don't think it's really all that material.
810
00:59:07.795 --> 00:59:09.414
I I would hope that
811
00:59:10.050 --> 00:59:20.665
wallet devs today are not depending on the opinions of you know, that were said many years ago and are have probably been somewhat, you know, miss
812
00:59:21.045 --> 00:59:21.545
misquoted
813
00:59:21.845 --> 00:59:22.345
anyway.
814
00:59:23.045 --> 00:59:25.930
I think we should all just think for ourselves. And,
815
00:59:27.030 --> 00:59:30.329
I guess, my point of view is is just coming from,
816
00:59:30.630 --> 00:59:33.990
you know, let's actually try and build this thing and see what's
817
00:59:34.674 --> 00:59:38.454
you know, how how close we can get to actually doing doing so.
818
00:59:40.434 --> 00:59:40.934
So,
819
00:59:41.315 --> 00:59:53.405
yeah, I I I I I just kinda feel that Bitcoin Core gets quite a lot of flack for it, but it's really immaterial. It's you know, we should all just look at the spec, and if you wanna build it, build it.
820
00:59:53.865 --> 00:59:55.085
Well, I mean, I think,
821
00:59:55.385 --> 00:59:59.885
you know, in in in reality, there's there's always shades of gray,
822
01:00:01.770 --> 01:00:03.390
but there but there's definitely
823
01:00:03.770 --> 01:00:06.270
there's there's definitely validity in an argument
824
01:00:07.425 --> 01:00:10.645
that there is a small group of developers,
825
01:00:12.465 --> 01:00:25.805
that most people follow that other developers follow in terms of of what they should be prioritizing and what they should be working on. And and we we do as Bitcoiners fall into victim of of group think in that regard, like,
826
01:00:26.984 --> 01:00:29.085
almost level of appeal to authority.
827
01:00:29.785 --> 01:00:30.285
And
828
01:00:30.744 --> 01:00:38.800
and for better or worse, like, I think one of the most valuable aspects of Bitcoin is the culture around core development in terms of being ultraconservative.
829
01:00:39.980 --> 01:00:40.480
But,
830
01:00:41.660 --> 01:00:48.515
when we're looking at, you know I I I went on a a bit of a tirade on Twitter today. Like, when you're when you're looking at the reality
831
01:00:48.815 --> 01:00:49.315
of
832
01:00:49.775 --> 01:00:50.355
of Bitcoin
833
01:00:50.734 --> 01:00:51.474
right now,
834
01:00:52.619 --> 01:00:57.440
the overwhelming majority of people are using it in the least private way possible,
835
01:00:58.700 --> 01:01:07.745
which is custodial exchanges. And then the few that are actually removing themselves from custodial exchanges are constantly reusing addresses. They're not using their own node.
836
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.140
So there's a lot of low hanging fruit that can be improved
837
01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:12.660
just by
838
01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:18.245
offering, you know, better, more user friendly tools to to users. Right? You
839
01:01:18.705 --> 01:01:19.205
know,
840
01:01:19.505 --> 01:01:25.285
my tirade specifically today was, like, the glass node charts that show, like, a they call it accumulation addresses,
841
01:01:25.780 --> 01:01:35.845
which are addresses that are constantly receiving Bitcoin and they're they're stacking. Right? And they the I've had people tag me and they're like, oh, Matt. Like, this is a chart showing everyone stacking sats.
842
01:01:36.145 --> 01:01:42.245
And it's like, no. This is a chart of people that don't listen to the show for the last 3 years and are still reusing addresses.
843
01:01:43.080 --> 01:01:43.580
And
844
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:46.620
and to me, it's a bearish chart when we see,
845
01:01:47.080 --> 01:01:47.740
you know,
846
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:50.860
600,000 addresses all reusing constantly.
847
01:01:54.585 --> 01:02:04.750
I'm curious what, I I wanna get to Quito, but before I get to Quito, Craig, like, how does Taproot addresses native Taproot addresses fall into your thought process here with BIP 47?
848
01:02:05.690 --> 01:02:08.655
That's actually really interesting, Matt. I I don't have a great answer
849
01:02:10.735 --> 01:02:14.435
for you, but I'm I'm hoping that, the signature algorithms
850
01:02:14.975 --> 01:02:16.755
in there will make it easier
851
01:02:17.350 --> 01:02:18.890
to get this,
852
01:02:19.510 --> 01:02:21.690
this kind of key exchange done.
853
01:02:22.870 --> 01:02:29.105
And I I'm not deep enough into Taproot yet to be sure that that is the case, so I don't wanna say that it is.
854
01:02:29.405 --> 01:02:29.905
But,
855
01:02:30.445 --> 01:02:32.610
I believe that there might be some scope,
856
01:02:33.010 --> 01:02:38.070
in terms of the way the signing is done and the way the sig signatures
857
01:02:38.450 --> 01:02:41.350
are tweaked that, we might be able to
858
01:02:41.845 --> 01:02:42.345
get
859
01:02:42.805 --> 01:02:44.665
some some kind of easier
860
01:02:45.525 --> 01:02:47.385
and more hidden kind of
861
01:02:47.685 --> 01:02:54.760
methods there to be able able to do it. But, yeah, it's it's kind of one of those things that I still need to get my head more into.
862
01:02:55.540 --> 01:02:58.359
But in the short in the short term, I mean, that would be
863
01:02:59.005 --> 01:03:04.545
just another set of addresses that you're gonna have to track. Right? That the wallet's gonna have to track, and the node's gonna have to track.
864
01:03:05.005 --> 01:03:07.744
Correct. Correct. I mean, that's the way, but what if 47
865
01:03:08.205 --> 01:03:08.650
7 works?
866
01:03:09.770 --> 01:03:11.789
You know, I I think that the servers
867
01:03:12.089 --> 01:03:14.750
that we run are getting more powerful with time,
868
01:03:15.450 --> 01:03:20.405
and I'm sure Kito will have some ideas on this. He has to deal with this stuff all the time.
869
01:03:21.105 --> 01:03:22.244
But, you know,
870
01:03:24.305 --> 01:03:24.805
yeah,
871
01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:30.220
I I I guess we just kind of have to find a way to do it that,
872
01:03:31.160 --> 01:03:31.660
doesn't
873
01:03:32.200 --> 01:03:34.780
put too much load, for example, on the
874
01:03:35.285 --> 01:03:40.265
public service service service service that are being being run. We don't want those to fall
875
01:03:40.645 --> 01:03:42.665
over. We don't want people to
876
01:03:42.970 --> 01:03:44.349
kind of just have this,
877
01:03:45.289 --> 01:03:45.789
unbounded
878
01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:51.745
kind of list that just grows and grows, and eventually, their kind of home node will fall over.
879
01:03:52.045 --> 01:03:53.345
I don't think that that's,
880
01:03:54.445 --> 01:03:59.105
you know, gonna happen off the bat. I think it would take quite a while for that to actually
881
01:03:59.485 --> 01:04:04.160
occur, but it is still a concern that you have to at least think about it, the offset.
882
01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:08.960
If anything, it's a bigger concern for the public nodes. No? Because, I mean, like,
883
01:04:09.545 --> 01:04:12.505
maybe if you're uncle Biming and you're you know, I got
884
01:04:13.464 --> 01:04:21.420
I mean, it'd be the most I mean, to me, it'd be the most bullish thing ever if I had, like, a 100 close friends and family using my note. Like, we're not even close to that, but,
885
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:29.605
I mean, if if I'm running Electris on a Nodle I mean, key to mind, let's get you in here. Like, if I'm running Eletris on,
886
01:04:30.885 --> 01:04:37.460
on a model and I'm using it with I'm using it, and I have, like, 5 or 10 family members, and they're all using it with BIP 47.
887
01:04:38.240 --> 01:04:40.579
Like, we're not even clear close to that,
888
01:04:41.520 --> 01:04:44.339
that overhead being a bottleneck for us. Right?
889
01:04:45.875 --> 01:04:48.215
Well, I I I'm not sure. You know, sometimes
890
01:04:48.675 --> 01:04:49.494
only running,
891
01:04:50.435 --> 01:04:52.055
a pretty heavy
892
01:04:52.810 --> 01:04:53.710
Electrum wallet,
893
01:04:54.570 --> 01:04:56.270
against Electrum server
894
01:04:56.570 --> 01:04:58.670
and running lightning at the same time,
895
01:04:59.450 --> 01:05:03.285
doesn't work when the when the mempool is heavy or stuff like that.
896
01:05:03.585 --> 01:05:06.485
So, yeah, I think I think anything track requiring
897
01:05:07.025 --> 01:05:08.805
constant tracking of transactions
898
01:05:09.185 --> 01:05:09.540
is
899
01:05:10.420 --> 01:05:14.040
is, is becoming a a bigger and bigger issue as time
900
01:05:14.660 --> 01:05:15.160
goes.
901
01:05:16.660 --> 01:05:18.600
There there are some solutions that
902
01:05:19.195 --> 01:05:20.735
seem to do it in a
903
01:05:21.595 --> 01:05:27.135
smoother way, like the MB Explorer library used by BTC pay server.
904
01:05:27.830 --> 01:05:30.550
That's a pretty good tracker. It's actually very lightweight, and,
905
01:05:31.110 --> 01:05:35.050
it it was built from the beginning to track thousands of addresses.
906
01:05:37.395 --> 01:05:37.975
So maybe
907
01:05:38.275 --> 01:05:42.455
the answer is something somewhere in between, like, some mid tracking middleware
908
01:05:43.075 --> 01:05:45.655
that wouldn't be a full electron server, but
909
01:05:46.180 --> 01:05:50.359
but would be interfaced with, with Bitcoin code only for tracking,
910
01:05:51.540 --> 01:05:53.000
transactions. I don't know.
911
01:05:59.335 --> 01:06:10.500
Okay. So, I mean, that's just something that we're just gonna constantly be up against then. Right? Is is that is is trying to reduce that overhead in terms of both server usage, but also, you
912
01:06:11.265 --> 01:06:19.925
know, both on the efficiency side of the of whatever you're running on your server, plus the efficiency side of of whatever is hitting the server. Right? Yep.
913
01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:29.980
To me At the end of the day, you always need to track these these addresses or or transactions or whatever you are looking for. So
914
01:06:31.425 --> 01:06:38.930
the the best thing you can do is to do it in the most efficient way. And, yeah, I I guess, like, from a purely
915
01:06:39.710 --> 01:06:40.770
server overhead,
916
01:06:41.630 --> 01:06:42.530
point of view,
917
01:06:42.830 --> 01:06:48.214
having a BTC pay server for donations is probably lighter than running your own bit 47
918
01:06:48.515 --> 01:06:49.015
server.
919
01:06:50.835 --> 01:06:51.875
Yeah. But, I mean, you wouldn't
920
01:06:53.315 --> 01:06:55.494
so so with Samurais implementation,
921
01:06:56.140 --> 01:06:56.880
they have a,
922
01:07:00.460 --> 01:07:03.840
they have a shorter code. They have so you have your payment code,
923
01:07:04.265 --> 01:07:14.299
and then your payment code is just reliant on your own node, and then they have a shorter code that's like a username lookup, a randomly generated username, which is the pay name.
924
01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:17.180
And they manage that server,
925
01:07:17.640 --> 01:07:20.539
but that's just a lookup for your payment code. Right?
926
01:07:21.055 --> 01:07:22.115
That's right. Yeah.
927
01:07:23.775 --> 01:07:25.135
So so you're really
928
01:07:26.095 --> 01:07:27.635
when you're using BIP 47
929
01:07:27.935 --> 01:07:29.715
with SAMURAI with your own dojo,
930
01:07:30.950 --> 01:07:35.210
you're running your own BIP 47 server. You're running your own payment code server.
931
01:07:37.244 --> 01:07:45.984
As far as I know, Matt, you know, I beyond. I'm not precisely sure how they do it, but they've obviously made made it work so it can be done. And,
932
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:48.540
you know, we all just kind of need to,
933
01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:59.915
understand understand that it's it's not a hill that can't be climbed. You know? It's it's just, we need to kind of try and figure out the ways to do it. I'd be really interested to know how
934
01:08:00.295 --> 01:08:02.555
they are implementing version 3.
935
01:08:03.390 --> 01:08:12.050
Hopefully, I can ask them a little bit more more about that because that's kind of the biggest barrier to me right now is, you know, how do we get past this need to
936
01:08:12.485 --> 01:08:13.385
to not only,
937
01:08:14.165 --> 01:08:26.560
scan for lots of add addresses, but to actually scan within that particular output script and to find a particular key within an up output script. Because as I say, Bitcoin Core, you can't do that today.
938
01:08:27.020 --> 01:08:36.145
Electrum server, you basically create a script hash, which is you basically just hash the output script. So, you know, you can't do that with just part of it.
939
01:08:37.165 --> 01:08:39.425
So, you know, how they're doing that,
940
01:08:40.650 --> 01:08:42.110
I presume it's using
941
01:08:42.810 --> 01:08:45.550
the the sort of compact block filters. But
942
01:08:46.855 --> 01:08:49.115
if those haven't been built into core,
943
01:08:50.135 --> 01:08:53.035
you know, I'm I'm not super familiar with,
944
01:08:53.575 --> 01:08:58.219
how many people have turned compact dot filters on when they install their node.
945
01:08:58.679 --> 01:09:01.420
Is that a default set of setting? I don't think it is.
946
01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:04.620
And if so, this particular enhancement
947
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:09.324
that the author of BIP 47 has put forward, like, is that supported?
948
01:09:10.585 --> 01:09:13.545
Though, that's kind of where I am, I guess, with my
949
01:09:14.350 --> 01:09:17.090
so, you know, I'm sure I'm gonna make it very soon.
950
01:09:17.869 --> 01:09:23.170
I'm curious, Kito. Like, do you have any insight here? My understanding is that Dojo is,
951
01:09:23.724 --> 01:09:24.385
you started
952
01:09:24.925 --> 01:09:25.905
it with Noddle
953
01:09:26.605 --> 01:09:29.344
before they implemented it, but Dojo now,
954
01:09:29.645 --> 01:09:30.864
they they're not using
955
01:09:31.180 --> 01:09:36.640
filters at all. They're not using block filters at all. It's it's Elektris. They're running Elektris if you run Dojo.
956
01:09:37.580 --> 01:09:42.545
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They use, they use Electrolux inside the the Dojo stack. Yeah.
957
01:09:45.005 --> 01:09:55.610
Okay. Yeah. And just to to answer, Craig, yeah, so compact filters are not enabled by default indeed, and they are pretty recent in the mainstream core. They were in not
958
01:09:56.574 --> 01:09:58.655
in, Luke's fork, and,
959
01:09:59.534 --> 01:10:01.155
I think they were
960
01:10:01.614 --> 01:10:05.554
merged finally in, in the mainstream core in 0 21.
961
01:10:06.080 --> 01:10:09.440
They, like, they Luke specifically put it in knots,
962
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:14.020
for Wasabi, and then Wasabi implemented knots as built in package,
963
01:10:14.480 --> 01:10:15.300
for Wasabi,
964
01:10:16.165 --> 01:10:23.880
so that they could get the block actually running notes until until Bitcoin calls 0 21 for for our lightning back ends,
965
01:10:24.440 --> 01:10:28.060
because we are we are running the tree now with our own private servers.
966
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:30.300
That's interesting.
967
01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:31.340
So,
968
01:10:32.515 --> 01:10:34.695
yeah. So, I mean, look, everything has trade offs.
969
01:10:38.115 --> 01:10:38.775
You know,
970
01:10:40.110 --> 01:10:43.650
just to go back, like, one of the things I mentioned is is one of the
971
01:10:44.430 --> 01:10:48.045
the most valuable aspects of Bitcoin to me is this culture at
972
01:10:48.605 --> 01:10:51.425
among core development to be as conservative as possible.
973
01:10:52.045 --> 01:10:55.585
But we don't have that same culture with Lightning, and I I think
974
01:10:56.205 --> 01:10:57.824
that's probably for the better.
975
01:10:59.869 --> 01:11:06.210
It's a it's a a quicker development process, with different trade offs set up, but the result is
976
01:11:06.985 --> 01:11:08.765
that a lot of the negatives
977
01:11:09.145 --> 01:11:12.445
that people have mentioned about these on chain aspects,
978
01:11:13.065 --> 01:11:15.150
a perfect example is, that
979
01:11:15.469 --> 01:11:18.210
that that change during the BIP 47,
980
01:11:18.909 --> 01:11:19.409
notification
981
01:11:19.710 --> 01:11:23.650
process that you say Craig needs to be coin joined, which it should be,
982
01:11:24.765 --> 01:11:29.345
are trade offs that are made every day by every Lightning user. I mean, I I just saw
983
01:11:31.630 --> 01:11:32.530
nifty nay,
984
01:11:33.230 --> 01:11:35.329
c lightning developer with Blockstream,
985
01:11:36.510 --> 01:11:38.929
on the mailing list saying that every UTXO
986
01:11:39.230 --> 01:11:43.255
that you connect to a Lightning node should be coin joined first.
987
01:11:44.035 --> 01:11:46.855
So these are trade offs that they're actively making.
988
01:11:48.270 --> 01:11:55.170
So to me, to have on chain tools that are making similar trade offs isn't the end of the world. There it's better to have those in our tool set.
989
01:11:56.005 --> 01:11:57.145
We have IFH
990
01:11:57.445 --> 01:12:03.865
in, the live chat asking what is the easiest way for someone to accept lightning donations in a static way,
991
01:12:05.610 --> 01:12:10.110
and you basically have 2 options right now. You you either can use lnbits
992
01:12:10.650 --> 01:12:12.030
to create an ln URL,
993
01:12:13.035 --> 01:12:14.175
with your own node,
994
01:12:14.955 --> 01:12:20.335
or you can use ln transaction bot. We had Fiat Jeff on the show
995
01:12:20.635 --> 01:12:21.855
a couple weeks ago,
996
01:12:22.550 --> 01:12:23.849
maybe over a month ago,
997
01:12:24.710 --> 01:12:32.010
who's the maintainer of that. That is custodial. Right? And that's another trade off you're making. You're trusting him with your privacy and your funds. But if you're
998
01:12:44.020 --> 01:12:45.720
rather than focusing on perfect,
999
01:12:46.660 --> 01:12:48.760
when it comes to user focused tools,
1000
01:12:49.805 --> 01:12:59.660
not the protocol. The protocol, I understand that we should be as conservative as possible. But when it comes to actually user tools, it's good to have many different options with different trade offs. I I think,
1001
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:08.665
people will use those, and it's it's super helpful. But ifh, to be clear, that static l n URL is what I have in the bottom left hand corner,
1002
01:13:09.065 --> 01:13:14.445
that QR code. So if you scan that QR code with supporting wallets, unfortunately, not all lightning wallets support it,
1003
01:13:14.985 --> 01:13:23.060
but if you scan that with a supporting wallet, it'll allow you to pay whatever you wanna pay, and you can also include a memo, which is really cool. I have people donate to the show,
1004
01:13:24.015 --> 01:13:26.995
and they give me feedback in their donation. So,
1005
01:13:27.855 --> 01:13:31.650
I I take your feedback more seriously if your donation's higher. I'm
1006
01:13:32.030 --> 01:13:32.110
just
1007
01:13:33.550 --> 01:13:34.050
but,
1008
01:13:34.590 --> 01:13:35.810
yeah. So that's cool.
1009
01:13:36.350 --> 01:13:37.650
Okay. So BIP 47,
1010
01:13:38.495 --> 01:13:44.195
Sparrow's gonna implement it soon. He's just, Craig's just working on the specifics. Right, Craig? Absolutely,
1011
01:13:44.495 --> 01:13:44.995
Matt.
1012
01:13:45.510 --> 01:13:48.490
Awesome. Looking forward to that. So let's jump into Whirlpool
1013
01:13:48.950 --> 01:13:49.450
because,
1014
01:13:49.830 --> 01:13:52.970
you can't implement BIP 47 unless you have,
1015
01:13:53.845 --> 01:13:55.945
some kind of collaborative transaction tools.
1016
01:13:59.445 --> 01:14:04.699
What is what what do you wanna focus on with Whirlpool here? I mean, you put it on the docket to discuss.
1017
01:14:05.400 --> 01:14:10.305
Yeah. So I mean, I you know, I guess, actually, I have, you know, really some questions is,
1018
01:14:10.865 --> 01:14:13.365
do people kind of view it as
1019
01:14:14.145 --> 01:14:16.725
as winning the CoinJoin implementation?
1020
01:14:17.825 --> 01:14:18.400
Is is
1021
01:14:19.120 --> 01:14:26.659
that an idea that makes any sense? Because, you know, one of the things that I really like about it is the fact that you can see the amount of unspent
1022
01:14:27.525 --> 01:14:28.025
capacity.
1023
01:14:28.885 --> 01:14:33.065
Now before the show, I was trying to find the same kind of figure for joint market,
1024
01:14:33.765 --> 01:14:34.665
and for Wasabi,
1025
01:14:35.125 --> 01:14:36.185
and I I couldn't.
1026
01:14:37.230 --> 01:14:42.690
I don't know if they if it's just that my skills weren't enough to figure that thing out.
1027
01:14:43.710 --> 01:14:45.665
But, you know, over 3,000
1028
01:14:46.125 --> 01:14:47.325
Bitcoin in an
1029
01:14:49.325 --> 01:14:51.185
in in in sort of un unspent
1030
01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:54.980
capacity is pretty good.
1031
01:14:56.320 --> 01:15:02.260
And it it just it just kind of seems to me that they have figured out the incentive model,
1032
01:15:03.324 --> 01:15:06.625
behind this in a way that the other implementations
1033
01:15:07.565 --> 01:15:08.465
haven't necessarily,
1034
01:15:09.005 --> 01:15:10.065
you know, done.
1035
01:15:10.764 --> 01:15:12.065
What do you guys think?
1036
01:15:13.030 --> 01:15:14.010
So, I mean,
1037
01:15:14.949 --> 01:15:18.730
obviously, this is a topic that I've been pretty focused on.
1038
01:15:20.485 --> 01:15:24.105
I mean, you you can look up stats for the other CoinJoin implementations.
1039
01:15:26.005 --> 01:15:28.265
If you go to if you go to whirlpoolstats.com,
1040
01:15:30.679 --> 01:15:31.260
it redirects
1041
01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:33.100
to attyperboles,
1042
01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:34.940
tracking website,
1043
01:15:35.400 --> 01:15:37.525
and he tracks Whirlpool volume,
1044
01:15:38.085 --> 01:15:40.585
joint market volume, and Wasabi volume.
1045
01:15:42.885 --> 01:15:49.280
There it's really apples and oranges. You can't really compare Whirlpool on spent capacity to these other volume numbers,
1046
01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:52.560
and the reason is
1047
01:15:53.260 --> 01:15:54.080
is because
1048
01:15:55.375 --> 01:15:57.795
the way Samurais set up their CoinJoin implementation
1049
01:15:58.175 --> 01:16:04.660
is they've set it up so that you have this structured liquidity pool, and that's what this unspent capacity pool is.
1050
01:16:05.140 --> 01:16:10.840
And the cool part about that is it it feels like a tangible goal that we can work towards
1051
01:16:11.620 --> 01:16:13.400
increasing that liquidity pool.
1052
01:16:13.940 --> 01:16:14.440
And
1053
01:16:14.805 --> 01:16:18.665
and the the difference is is is when you when you use something like Whirlpool,
1054
01:16:20.165 --> 01:16:21.305
when you use Whirlpool,
1055
01:16:22.620 --> 01:16:23.120
the
1056
01:16:23.500 --> 01:16:25.680
the way their Sybil mechanism works
1057
01:16:26.140 --> 01:16:33.675
is you pay less fees the more money you send in at a given time, and that's that transaction 0. When you send in the transaction 0,
1058
01:16:34.055 --> 01:16:37.835
your fees are flat based on which pool you decide to join.
1059
01:16:39.430 --> 01:16:40.730
And then those
1060
01:16:41.670 --> 01:16:42.570
those transactions,
1061
01:16:43.030 --> 01:16:48.135
if if, let's say, you're going let's say, you're going into the million sat pool in Whirlpool,
1062
01:16:48.675 --> 01:16:54.855
and you go in with 5,000,000 sats or a little bit over 5,000,000 sats, because you have to pay the Whirlpool fee. So
1063
01:16:55.260 --> 01:16:58.620
you go in with a little bit over than 5,000,000 SaaS, you're gonna have
1064
01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:03.520
7 UTXOs are gonna get created. You're gonna have
1065
01:17:04.155 --> 01:17:04.655
5,000,000,
1066
01:17:05.915 --> 01:17:07.375
you're gonna you're gonna have
1067
01:17:07.995 --> 01:17:11.054
5, 1,000,000 SAT UTXOs going into Whirlpool.
1068
01:17:11.480 --> 01:17:12.860
You're gonna have 1 UTXO
1069
01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:20.380
that is paying your Whirlpool fee to the samurai developers, and then you're gonna have 1 UTXO, which is your change output, which is underneath.
1070
01:17:20.775 --> 01:17:25.195
It's it's it's whatever is left over that couldn't fit into that 1,000,000 sat denomination.
1071
01:17:26.215 --> 01:17:30.900
And then those 5 UTXO's are going into 5 different rounds of CoinJoin.
1072
01:17:31.360 --> 01:17:36.820
They're not in the same round. None of them are allowed to be in the same round, and that's that Sybil mechanism involved.
1073
01:17:37.785 --> 01:17:40.364
Then once you've entered this coin joint pool,
1074
01:17:41.225 --> 01:17:43.645
it sits in there, and as long as you're running,
1075
01:17:44.665 --> 01:17:45.165
Whirlpool,
1076
01:17:46.020 --> 01:17:50.600
which you can run 247 very easily with Noddle or Ronin Dojo or Umbrel,
1077
01:17:53.994 --> 01:18:01.140
they will constantly provide remix. They'll constantly be remixing in that pool to any new users who join that pool,
1078
01:18:01.540 --> 01:18:06.040
And the idea is to try and interconnect all those mixes. Every single round
1079
01:18:06.660 --> 01:18:07.160
has
1080
01:18:07.700 --> 01:18:12.804
can be traced on the blockchain all the way back to the 1st Whirlpool mix that ever happened,
1081
01:18:13.105 --> 01:18:18.409
and they should be able to go forward from that point as long as at least one person,
1082
01:18:19.030 --> 01:18:23.530
one participant out of those 5 UTXOs that are in each round
1083
01:18:23.935 --> 01:18:26.275
goes on to another round. So even if you don't,
1084
01:18:28.015 --> 01:18:34.820
ideally, you should be actively keeping Whirlpool on, but even if you don't, as long as other participants in your round are constantly
1085
01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:38.420
in Whirlpool and constantly providing liquidity,
1086
01:18:40.455 --> 01:18:43.435
the the probability of which UTXO is yours
1087
01:18:43.975 --> 01:18:50.130
grows with the set. Right? Like, you're you're intermixed into the set. And it's this idea of creating this, like, structured liquidity
1088
01:18:50.830 --> 01:18:51.730
pool that is
1089
01:18:53.390 --> 01:19:03.455
provides as much privacy as possible for a new user who just comes in and maybe only does one round. Like, they should really be doing more rounds, but if they just do one round, like, they should have, you know,
1090
01:19:04.715 --> 01:19:15.050
a a lower, like, a a harder chance, a harder probability, a lower probability of guessing which UTX dose is theirs when they come out because it's connected to the previous mixes and the future mixes.
1091
01:19:16.135 --> 01:19:23.515
So it feels like a tangible goal of something we can work towards, and it and and the result there is as more users are entering the system,
1092
01:19:24.409 --> 01:19:25.150
over time,
1093
01:19:26.170 --> 01:19:33.869
your anonymity set shouldn't degrade. This idea of you're one of a 1000 people or one of 2 1000 people or 1 of 4000 people
1094
01:19:35.275 --> 01:19:36.655
in these other implementations,
1095
01:19:37.915 --> 01:19:42.255
specifically Wasabi, your an anonymity set tends to degrade over time. So
1096
01:19:42.580 --> 01:19:47.160
if you do, like, a round and and you're in Wasabi and you do around 70 people,
1097
01:19:48.179 --> 01:20:03.380
and 65 of those people end up sending to a KYC exchange or combining their outputs afterwards and then sending to a KYC exchange or whatever, doxing their their coins in some way, your anonymity set is being ruined over time, and you don't even realize.
1098
01:20:05.120 --> 01:20:12.165
So this idea of the unspent capacity is a very cool metric to me. It's also a metric that can't be easily gained,
1099
01:20:13.665 --> 01:20:14.165
because
1100
01:20:15.105 --> 01:20:17.685
every UTXO in that unspent capacity
1101
01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:24.800
calculation is something that's sitting there in post Whirlpool. You can't then recycle
1102
01:20:25.180 --> 01:20:29.975
you can't recycle it back through and get counted twice. But if you're going at just,
1103
01:20:31.875 --> 01:20:34.455
if you're going at just naive volume numbers,
1104
01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:37.260
you can recycle UTXOs
1105
01:20:37.719 --> 01:20:38.460
and just
1106
01:20:39.320 --> 01:20:42.300
keep sending them back in. And that that will cost you money,
1107
01:20:43.320 --> 01:20:44.620
but if you are
1108
01:20:47.315 --> 01:20:53.095
the the coordinated coin joints like, if if you're the one running the coordinated coin joints, in this case, Wasabi,
1109
01:20:53.530 --> 01:21:00.030
Wasabi doesn't have to pay that coin joint fee. So so I'm not accusing them of doing it, but I'm just saying that you you basically,
1110
01:21:01.195 --> 01:21:03.455
with without that unspent capacity metric,
1111
01:21:03.995 --> 01:21:08.495
if you're looking at just pure wasabi volumes, you're trusting that they're not
1112
01:21:09.290 --> 01:21:11.710
constantly recycling volume through
1113
01:21:12.170 --> 01:21:15.950
their coin joints. Right? Because the unspent capacity is literally
1114
01:21:17.054 --> 01:21:18.835
transactions that are sitting there
1115
01:21:19.855 --> 01:21:20.355
in
1116
01:21:20.895 --> 01:21:24.034
in post Whirlpool UTXO. So so so, yes,
1117
01:21:24.730 --> 01:21:33.150
the samurai devs could be inflating that number with their own UTXOs, but they can only do it once. They can't constantly recycle it to increase
1118
01:21:33.844 --> 01:21:35.304
can increase that number.
1119
01:21:36.005 --> 01:21:47.619
So to me, the unspent capacity is a very tangible number. It's a harder to gain number, and it's something that we've been very focused on at the on on rabbit hole recap. We talk about it every the beginning of every episode.
1120
01:21:49.625 --> 01:21:50.685
On top of that,
1121
01:21:52.505 --> 01:21:55.645
what's cool about Whirlpool is it was made from the get go.
1122
01:21:56.200 --> 01:21:59.180
It was built from the get go to share that
1123
01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:01.500
liquidity pool with other
1124
01:22:03.614 --> 01:22:07.155
wallet developers, and and the reason for that is because
1125
01:22:08.494 --> 01:22:12.510
we don't have many people using CoinJoin period right now. Like, I
1126
01:22:12.889 --> 01:22:14.670
one of the biggest promoters of CoinJoin,
1127
01:22:16.010 --> 01:22:20.590
there's no way for me to tell exactly how many people are using CoinJoin, but across the three implementations,
1128
01:22:22.155 --> 01:22:25.055
I I can safely say that's less than 10,000 people.
1129
01:22:25.595 --> 01:22:27.855
Right? It's not that many people are using CoinJoin,
1130
01:22:28.770 --> 01:22:34.469
and it's further split between those three implementations. Some people are using join market. Some people are using Wasabi.
1131
01:22:35.010 --> 01:22:36.230
Some people are using,
1132
01:22:37.170 --> 01:22:37.670
Whirlpool,
1133
01:22:38.325 --> 01:22:42.985
And so that small anonymity set that we already have of 10,000 people,
1134
01:22:44.005 --> 01:22:45.625
or less than 10,000 people,
1135
01:22:46.270 --> 01:22:52.290
is further split. So the individual privacy you get of any of the individual tools is is reduced.
1136
01:22:53.545 --> 01:22:56.445
So what we wanna see is we want to see CoinJoin
1137
01:22:57.385 --> 01:22:58.764
get added to every wallet,
1138
01:22:59.304 --> 01:23:03.600
and we want to see them sharing liquidity pools would be the ideal. And just to be clear
1139
01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:07.680
to listeners who are watching the livestream, the reason the live chat
1140
01:23:08.140 --> 01:23:18.725
just got erased was because there was some scammer who posted something. So I I deleted the live chat, blocked him, and then re popped it up just to let you know. The so where I'm getting at here is
1141
01:23:19.890 --> 01:23:24.790
they set up Whirlpool in a way that if you integrate it into Sparrow Wallet,
1142
01:23:25.970 --> 01:23:28.710
they will give you a cut of all fees that come in
1143
01:23:29.284 --> 01:23:29.945
through Sparrow,
1144
01:23:31.764 --> 01:23:44.320
so you can monetize your wallet in a ethical way without adding fiat, onramps, or what other elements that Bitcoin wallets or ads that Bitcoin or or tracking that Bitcoin wallets add to try and monetize.
1145
01:23:46.345 --> 01:23:49.325
So you can monetize your wallet while providing your users
1146
01:23:50.585 --> 01:23:51.485
better privacy,
1147
01:23:52.105 --> 01:23:54.525
and the main negative that people have against
1148
01:23:55.490 --> 01:23:57.030
Whirlpool is that
1149
01:23:58.450 --> 01:24:01.270
you can use it without your own node, and in that case,
1150
01:24:02.050 --> 01:24:04.150
samurai knows your XPUBs.
1151
01:24:04.465 --> 01:24:07.925
They don't know your IP address because it defaults to Tor, but they know your XPUBs.
1152
01:24:08.705 --> 01:24:09.844
And if there's a subset
1153
01:24:10.304 --> 01:24:12.005
if there's a majority of people
1154
01:24:12.380 --> 01:24:16.320
that are using it without their own node, then samurai can reverse construct
1155
01:24:17.500 --> 01:24:22.159
and and remove that anonymity set that you think you have that you don't because
1156
01:24:22.495 --> 01:24:23.235
they know
1157
01:24:23.535 --> 01:24:24.435
all the different,
1158
01:24:25.055 --> 01:24:27.155
addresses of the non node users.
1159
01:24:27.614 --> 01:24:28.355
But if
1160
01:24:29.055 --> 01:24:30.675
Sparrow Wallet adds it
1161
01:24:31.079 --> 01:24:36.219
and Blue Wallet adds it, and Ledger adds it, and all these different wallets add it,
1162
01:24:38.495 --> 01:24:47.315
Maybe not all users will use their own node, but because there'll be different nodes that are being used by the light users,
1163
01:24:47.920 --> 01:24:52.559
it splits up that threshold of the amount of people that are using it. So it it makes
1164
01:24:55.015 --> 01:25:01.195
not only does it increase the overall usage and anonymity set of all Whirlpool users, it also removes,
1165
01:25:02.530 --> 01:25:10.150
it mitigates that main concern that a lot of people have that you have these light client users that are are trusting samurai with their
1166
01:25:10.925 --> 01:25:14.385
with their address history. Does does any of this make sense that I've
1167
01:25:15.405 --> 01:25:16.705
been talking for a while?
1168
01:25:19.219 --> 01:25:21.940
Well, that was great, Matt. Thank you. Yeah.
1169
01:25:22.420 --> 01:25:25.239
Certainly got got a lot from the front from that,
1170
01:25:26.485 --> 01:25:28.344
I'm definitely looking at Whirlpool.
1171
01:25:29.605 --> 01:25:30.344
You know,
1172
01:25:30.645 --> 01:25:32.505
it's, I think, becoming
1173
01:25:32.885 --> 01:25:34.665
clear to me at least that
1174
01:25:36.280 --> 01:25:39.660
it's it's, you know, it's certainly the most recommended
1175
01:25:40.120 --> 01:25:41.740
CoinJoin that I'm seeing,
1176
01:25:42.440 --> 01:25:44.565
you know, just kind of out there.
1177
01:25:45.265 --> 01:25:48.325
And I I think there's a lot to be said for,
1178
01:25:48.864 --> 01:25:50.085
you know, the highest
1179
01:25:50.625 --> 01:25:58.100
the highest kind of, you know, the the credit credit credit credibility pool providing them the the the largest anonymity
1180
01:25:58.720 --> 01:25:59.220
sets.
1181
01:25:59.895 --> 01:26:03.434
So that that kind of makes a lot of sense. But as I was saying earlier,
1182
01:26:03.735 --> 01:26:09.195
what I really like about it is the fact that the incentives have been chosen. You know, just for example,
1183
01:26:10.160 --> 01:26:13.460
having a flat fee to enter a pool obviously incentivizes
1184
01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:15.140
you to increase
1185
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:24.665
the amount of Bitcoin that you're gonna mix because, you know, you're always looking at the ratio between the fee that you spend to the amount that you mix. And if the the fee is flat,
1186
01:26:24.965 --> 01:26:31.420
then you obviously say, well, great. I'm just going to, you know, mix as much as I can. So that that those kind of clever
1187
01:26:32.200 --> 01:26:32.700
choices,
1188
01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:36.140
make a lot of sense to me. I think,
1189
01:26:36.655 --> 01:26:41.555
and I I kind of wanna get in into this, as we get further into the chat, but, really,
1190
01:26:42.175 --> 01:26:43.430
privacy only works
1191
01:26:43.910 --> 01:26:46.170
when it has, I think, additional,
1192
01:26:46.630 --> 01:26:48.010
you know, kind of incentives
1193
01:26:48.550 --> 01:26:52.605
or it's built in a clever way so that you feel like you're winning when you do it.
1194
01:26:53.805 --> 01:26:56.065
There's there's some something about that.
1195
01:26:57.165 --> 01:26:59.425
You know, as much as we would like to believe
1196
01:27:00.020 --> 01:27:02.760
that everyone wants to be private for its own sake,
1197
01:27:03.380 --> 01:27:08.520
I think that it only really works when it kind of almost becomes part of a bigger package.
1198
01:27:09.545 --> 01:27:10.425
And I just think
1199
01:27:10.905 --> 01:27:11.405
100%.
1200
01:27:11.945 --> 01:27:12.445
Yep.
1201
01:27:12.825 --> 01:27:13.325
Incentives
1202
01:27:13.705 --> 01:27:16.745
are everything. And and just to be clear on the
1203
01:27:17.640 --> 01:27:19.179
in terms of providing liquidity,
1204
01:27:20.360 --> 01:27:21.179
join market,
1205
01:27:22.040 --> 01:27:25.315
you know, nailed the incentive structure for the makers,
1206
01:27:25.715 --> 01:27:29.015
in in terms of of the people who are providing liquidity,
1207
01:27:30.915 --> 01:27:34.375
because you can actually get paid to run join market 247.
1208
01:27:35.870 --> 01:27:43.010
With with Samurai, you get basically paid in privacy because your your privacy increases the more your liquidity is sitting in there.
1209
01:27:44.405 --> 01:27:45.305
I would argue
1210
01:27:45.685 --> 01:27:50.105
that the incentive on the taker side is almost more important because,
1211
01:27:50.965 --> 01:27:57.070
with join market, what we saw is we we do have a dedicated, you know, sub thousand group of makers
1212
01:27:57.610 --> 01:28:01.550
that are constantly providing liquidity because both idealistic reasons
1213
01:28:02.445 --> 01:28:04.545
and because they can make some money off of it.
1214
01:28:06.125 --> 01:28:10.465
But if we wanna if we wanna get that total coin joined user number,
1215
01:28:11.390 --> 01:28:16.130
you know, above 10,000, if we wanna get it to 50,000 to a 100,000 people,
1216
01:28:16.830 --> 01:28:19.250
you have to make it as accessible as possible
1217
01:28:19.550 --> 01:28:20.050
for
1218
01:28:22.555 --> 01:28:29.695
the average user who's who's not gonna be a maker. He's a guy who comes in as a as a taker and and just wants to, you know,
1219
01:28:30.090 --> 01:28:33.950
pay a little bit of Bitcoin and and get better privacy as a result.
1220
01:28:34.890 --> 01:28:37.770
So the incentives are very important, but also how you
1221
01:28:39.005 --> 01:28:43.965
who those incentives are focused on are are extra important, and I I I think
1222
01:28:45.780 --> 01:28:46.680
yeah. I
1223
01:28:47.140 --> 01:28:51.720
it's it's it's definitely it's definitely a in a very nuanced topic.
1224
01:28:54.804 --> 01:28:57.225
I wouldn't I wouldn't go as far as saying
1225
01:28:58.244 --> 01:28:58.725
that,
1226
01:29:00.244 --> 01:29:04.880
the liquidity pool of of Samurai is is the largest.
1227
01:29:07.020 --> 01:29:09.920
Naive raw numbers would would say that
1228
01:29:12.685 --> 01:29:14.625
wasabi is larger, but like I said,
1229
01:29:15.085 --> 01:29:17.344
the the the liquidity pool
1230
01:29:17.965 --> 01:29:18.705
is not
1231
01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:25.460
is not structured well. It's not a strong foundation that Wasabi is built on top of.
1232
01:29:27.005 --> 01:29:30.784
There's all these different little aspects of the way their implementation works
1233
01:29:31.165 --> 01:29:46.724
that doesn't incentivize remixing. You have to pay a fee constantly if you're if you're remixing. You you you get to choose which rounds you participate in, which makes it cheaper for a civil attacker. A civil attacker pays the same fees that are that a, quote, unquote, good user or
1234
01:29:47.105 --> 01:29:48.645
a benevolent actor pays.
1235
01:29:49.344 --> 01:29:50.965
So it's not as civil resistant.
1236
01:29:51.585 --> 01:29:54.324
And then on top of that, with both of these coordinated
1237
01:29:54.840 --> 01:29:57.580
CoinJoin implementations, you don't have civil resistance,
1238
01:29:59.080 --> 01:30:06.824
from the actual coordinator because the main civil resistance, especially in this today's fee market, which we're looking at mempool dot space right now, which is just
1239
01:30:07.205 --> 01:30:09.625
one sat per byte, you get into the next block.
1240
01:30:10.310 --> 01:30:19.725
The main civil resistance is the actual coin joint fee, which is paid to the coordinator themselves. So in Samurai's case, it's paid to Samurai, and Wasabi's case is paid to
1241
01:30:20.445 --> 01:30:20.765
Wasabi.
1242
01:30:21.325 --> 01:30:27.105
And both of those coordinators could could, you know, flood rounds at minimal cost to themselves,
1243
01:30:27.990 --> 01:30:29.930
except for the minor fees. And if
1244
01:30:30.950 --> 01:30:34.730
if if I'm correct in that the fee market will increase, then
1245
01:30:35.435 --> 01:30:42.655
then that becomes less of an issue because you have the civil resistance of the actual transaction fees. We just haven't gone in there and, you know,
1246
01:30:43.390 --> 01:30:47.010
whatever. I've been eating crow about the people give me shit about
1247
01:30:47.630 --> 01:30:51.655
the 200 k price call, but the big one for me is the mem pool. Like, I mem
1248
01:30:52.114 --> 01:30:57.235
pools. Like, I just I did not expect that we were gonna get 1 sat per byte right now in this
1249
01:30:58.260 --> 01:30:59.000
in 2021,
1250
01:31:02.020 --> 01:31:14.645
especially amid a minor alleged minor crackdown in China where hash rates down a shit ton, and you can just get confirmed to 1 separate byte. But I I I think I think what Samura is building in terms of the Whirlpool implementation
1251
01:31:15.440 --> 01:31:17.380
is just a really, really strong foundation
1252
01:31:18.320 --> 01:31:25.565
that we can work off of, that is really, really good on chain properties when you look at how it looks on chain,
1253
01:31:26.665 --> 01:31:28.605
and the defaults that they have set.
1254
01:31:29.625 --> 01:31:30.445
And I
1255
01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:32.739
I feel good
1256
01:31:33.280 --> 01:31:37.620
trying to increase that liquidity. And I think the next step is we need more wallets
1257
01:31:38.115 --> 01:31:41.255
to basically integrate Whirlpool. And that's what I've been trying to,
1258
01:31:42.275 --> 01:31:43.975
facilitate behind the scenes,
1259
01:31:44.515 --> 01:31:51.340
and I hope that we'll see some more wallets do it specifically. I mean, Sparrow would be absolutely fantastic, you know, one of the best in class
1260
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:56.985
desktop wallets, but I would love to see an iPhone wallet added as well because I I think that's a,
1261
01:31:58.105 --> 01:32:01.485
you know, I mean, there's just a lot of pick corners that use iPhones. So
1262
01:32:01.945 --> 01:32:02.925
for better or worse.
1263
01:32:03.465 --> 01:32:07.610
So so so, Matt, let me ask you this. If I was to play devil's advocate here,
1264
01:32:08.230 --> 01:32:12.010
and let's assume that all these wallets integrate against against it,
1265
01:32:12.390 --> 01:32:13.290
are we not
1266
01:32:22.650 --> 01:32:23.310
server endpoint.
1267
01:32:24.090 --> 01:32:25.390
Does that make any sense?
1268
01:32:26.010 --> 01:32:28.110
So the so there's 2 servers.
1269
01:32:28.890 --> 01:32:30.670
There's the samurai wallet
1270
01:32:31.125 --> 01:32:35.945
tracking server, which is for samurai wallet users that are not using their own node,
1271
01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:43.060
which is, like, what whatever their modified version of Electris is or whatever they're running.
1272
01:32:44.240 --> 01:32:46.660
And then there's a separate Whirlpool server.
1273
01:32:49.245 --> 01:32:49.745
We
1274
01:32:50.605 --> 01:32:53.345
if if we have more wallets using Whirlpool,
1275
01:32:54.360 --> 01:32:59.980
then we are creating a central point of failure on the Whirlpool server in terms of uptime,
1276
01:33:01.640 --> 01:33:03.660
but that Whirlpool server is blinded,
1277
01:33:04.344 --> 01:33:06.685
so the Whirlpool server doesn't have any
1278
01:33:07.465 --> 01:33:10.765
there's no there's no privacy risk with that Whirlpool server.
1279
01:33:12.380 --> 01:33:15.440
Every time you connect to it, you connect to it with a new Tor identity.
1280
01:33:16.380 --> 01:33:19.520
You're not giving it x pubs. You're serving it individual addresses.
1281
01:33:20.965 --> 01:33:21.465
So
1282
01:33:22.405 --> 01:33:25.784
so it doesn't add a centralized risk in terms of privacy.
1283
01:33:26.804 --> 01:33:31.400
It does add a, basically, denial of service risk in terms of
1284
01:33:32.500 --> 01:33:36.760
you're gonna have, you know, one Whirlpool server, maybe a backup Whirlpool server,
1285
01:33:37.775 --> 01:33:40.755
that is coordinating all of these coin join rounds.
1286
01:33:41.614 --> 01:33:42.114
But,
1287
01:33:43.054 --> 01:33:44.034
you know, theoretically,
1288
01:33:44.640 --> 01:33:49.860
in a worst case scenario, let's say we have Sparrow Wallet and 5 other wallets,
1289
01:33:51.200 --> 01:33:55.045
6 other wallets all using the same Whirlpool liquidity pool,
1290
01:33:56.145 --> 01:33:56.645
and,
1291
01:33:57.345 --> 01:33:58.405
you know, AMLD
1292
01:33:59.400 --> 01:34:08.940
10 comes out or whatever. Like, I think we're on 6 right now, and they're, like, super aggressive against CoinJoin, and they go after the samurai team, and they they shut down the Whirlpool servers.
1293
01:34:10.975 --> 01:34:13.715
Someone else can launch their own coordinator
1294
01:34:14.335 --> 01:34:14.835
through,
1295
01:34:15.535 --> 01:34:26.055
Tor, make it an Onion only service, and maybe have some kind of web of trust, you know, ideally a NIM or something that already has a reputation can launch it. But, otherwise, it'll take some time to get new reputation there.
1296
01:34:27.815 --> 01:34:30.635
But but you can run you can run the Whirlpool server
1297
01:34:31.175 --> 01:34:35.035
just completely through onion and not, you know, have it tied to your identity.
1298
01:34:35.659 --> 01:34:42.300
But the the key aspect there is is who's ever running that Whirlpool server is not they're not a privacy risk. They're they're purely a,
1299
01:34:43.625 --> 01:34:44.425
uptime or,
1300
01:34:45.865 --> 01:34:51.565
you know, they they they they purely just need to be there to coordinate, but they're they're blind to what's actually happening.
1301
01:34:52.150 --> 01:34:57.290
Okay. Yeah. No. That that I think makes some some some sense. I think the main thing is, you know, even if,
1302
01:34:57.910 --> 01:35:06.155
the Whirlpool server does somehow get impacted, the fact that, you know, we can start it up as a sort of a third party effort,
1303
01:35:06.615 --> 01:35:12.900
that makes some some sense. I could see how that could could could work should that unfortunate day ever happen.
1304
01:35:14.640 --> 01:35:17.620
Okay. Good. But I think I think that's, like,
1305
01:35:19.025 --> 01:35:24.085
that's, like, the most bullish start model ever for me because, like, that means, like, it's heavily being used,
1306
01:35:25.264 --> 01:35:29.429
and gets taken down in in that situation. Like, if if that situation happens,
1307
01:35:30.050 --> 01:35:33.829
to me, we're sitting in a way more bullish scenario than I expect otherwise,
1308
01:35:35.034 --> 01:35:42.415
because it just does not seem like we have that momentum to get it added to more wallets. But I would like to see it adds more wallets, and I think the number one incentive
1309
01:35:42.750 --> 01:35:44.450
for it to get added to more wallets
1310
01:35:44.990 --> 01:35:51.890
is in privacy, and we're talking about incentives here. Right? It's it's that these these wallet developers and you know this firsthand, Craig.
1311
01:35:52.465 --> 01:35:53.445
Like, if you're running
1312
01:35:53.905 --> 01:35:55.925
a a a free open source wallet,
1313
01:35:57.265 --> 01:35:59.445
it is very hard to monetize. And,
1314
01:36:00.440 --> 01:36:01.020
you know,
1315
01:36:01.320 --> 01:36:06.940
donation where only gets you so far. And if if if these wallet developers have
1316
01:36:07.355 --> 01:36:10.255
a way to monetize their wallet in an ethical way
1317
01:36:10.955 --> 01:36:15.215
that provides them a steady stream of the best money that humans have ever had in Bitcoin,
1318
01:36:17.140 --> 01:36:20.040
without venture capitalists or any kind of VC funding,
1319
01:36:21.300 --> 01:36:22.440
that's gonna create
1320
01:36:24.475 --> 01:36:29.855
a positive feedback loop for any wallet developers that that ultimately decide to integrate it.
1321
01:36:31.570 --> 01:36:33.910
That that aligns them with their users,
1322
01:36:35.010 --> 01:36:38.870
and ideally ends up in, you know, better maintained,
1323
01:36:39.405 --> 01:36:45.105
fully fleshed out wallets because they have, like, the steady source of funding that they can rely on. Right?
1324
01:36:45.565 --> 01:36:48.705
Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. I I think it makes a lot of
1325
01:36:49.140 --> 01:36:52.360
sense sense. And that's the kind of why I wanted to raise it, just just to
1326
01:36:52.660 --> 01:36:53.160
discuss,
1327
01:36:54.180 --> 01:37:00.025
you know because it's it seems right right now that we're sort of starting to emerge from a period
1328
01:37:00.645 --> 01:37:02.185
where a lot of these implementations
1329
01:37:02.565 --> 01:37:05.465
have been sparring off against each other. And,
1330
01:37:06.230 --> 01:37:08.010
you know, as I say, for me,
1331
01:37:08.550 --> 01:37:14.010
just sitting at looking at it from the outside, I can see and measure how Whirlpool is growing,
1332
01:37:14.545 --> 01:37:21.045
which I can't until you send me this link. But even now it's still quite difficult. It's quite a struggle to see how the others are growing.
1333
01:37:22.600 --> 01:37:25.740
And, also, I just really like incentive models
1334
01:37:26.360 --> 01:37:26.860
that,
1335
01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:33.275
kind of work to the benefit of the user who's actually trying to use the product. That that that,
1336
01:37:33.735 --> 01:37:37.915
makes a lot of sense to me, and that that's kind of what translates into
1337
01:37:38.390 --> 01:37:38.890
success,
1338
01:37:39.670 --> 01:37:41.130
in my world at least.
1339
01:37:41.670 --> 01:37:48.765
Yeah. I mean, so, like, so join market, which is I mean, I just think, like, no one really should be using Wasabi right now, to be honest.
1340
01:37:49.325 --> 01:37:55.800
I mean, I there I you can go back people can go back and listen to my episode with no power, but they're working on Wasabi 2 point o,
1341
01:37:56.500 --> 01:38:00.440
which is a complete rewrite and a complete change in implementation, and
1342
01:38:00.820 --> 01:38:04.805
I I'll reserve judgment on that when that gets released. It hasn't been released yet.
1343
01:38:05.285 --> 01:38:08.665
But join market is still very effective software. It's hard to use,
1344
01:38:09.525 --> 01:38:12.745
but they've made very different trade off designs
1345
01:38:13.380 --> 01:38:14.600
and incentive designs,
1346
01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:21.880
and the 2 being is that, first of all, there isn't really a liquidity pool. You're you're basically individually
1347
01:38:22.775 --> 01:38:26.795
going through these makers, and each maker is its own liquidity pool almost.
1348
01:38:27.415 --> 01:38:29.755
You're not really mixed in with everyone else.
1349
01:38:30.980 --> 01:38:32.680
So you don't have this, like, solid
1350
01:38:33.380 --> 01:38:35.400
liquidity base to work off of.
1351
01:38:37.515 --> 01:38:49.640
You know, the the UX is getting easier to use, especially with we had open arms on the show with join in box, which is integrated with raspiblitz that makes it way easier to use join market. But the number one incentive difference
1352
01:38:50.420 --> 01:38:52.600
is what we just highlighted, which is
1353
01:38:53.994 --> 01:38:58.974
individual wallet developers have no reason to implement join market besides possibly
1354
01:38:59.355 --> 01:39:05.050
incentivize you know, hoping that more users will use theirs their wallet because it has join market built in.
1355
01:39:05.670 --> 01:39:11.850
There's no financial incentive for them to add it, but there's a financial incentive for Whirlpool to be added to these wallets because
1356
01:39:12.205 --> 01:39:14.385
you're literally making a portion of the fees.
1357
01:39:16.205 --> 01:39:22.239
It's you know, between Wasabi and Samurais, the first time really that you saw these open source Bitcoin projects
1358
01:39:23.099 --> 01:39:26.480
that had a steady income from their users
1359
01:39:27.420 --> 01:39:30.239
that also is is not easily,
1360
01:39:30.835 --> 01:39:31.655
you know, forkable.
1361
01:39:32.034 --> 01:39:37.415
You you, like, you can you can fork it and run your own coordinator, but then you're just in a completely different
1362
01:39:38.470 --> 01:39:47.290
liquidity pool. I mean, you don't have that liquidity pool to work off of. So you're incentivized to to really, you know, work together there and and and build that single
1363
01:39:47.935 --> 01:39:50.835
large liquidity pool, which I really think we we need,
1364
01:39:52.575 --> 01:39:58.090
because there's just not that many users seeking privacy. So we need to amplify as much as possible the users that are.
1365
01:39:59.190 --> 01:40:02.969
Yep. For sure. Yet. Not yet. We have to yeah. I mean, look,
1366
01:40:03.305 --> 01:40:04.765
We have we have, you know,
1367
01:40:05.545 --> 01:40:07.005
nearly 3,000 Bitcoin.
1368
01:40:07.385 --> 01:40:10.525
So so just to be clear on these unspent capacity numbers,
1369
01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:14.860
Clark Moody has a higher number than Hyperbole does,
1370
01:40:15.400 --> 01:40:15.900
because,
1371
01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:18.139
Clark Moody counts,
1372
01:40:20.635 --> 01:40:21.695
he he counts,
1373
01:40:23.114 --> 01:40:29.960
Whirlpool transactions that are waiting to go into Whirlpool that haven't gone in yet. So they're just sitting in the transaction 0, but they haven't actually
1374
01:40:30.500 --> 01:40:34.840
gone into Whirlpool yet. By hyperbole, waits till after they go in.
1375
01:40:35.140 --> 01:40:35.460
But,
1376
01:40:36.335 --> 01:40:40.435
so the the range is, I think, hyperbole has it at, like, 24100 Bitcoin,
1377
01:40:41.775 --> 01:40:45.920
and Clark has it at, like, 32100. So that's, like, there's, like, 800 Bitcoin
1378
01:40:46.300 --> 01:40:49.600
getting ready to go into Whirlpool that haven't quite gone in yet.
1379
01:40:51.340 --> 01:40:52.615
So probably the 25100
1380
01:40:52.995 --> 01:40:58.695
number is, like, the more accurate number, but regardless, that's a negligible difference in the big scheme of things.
1381
01:41:00.230 --> 01:41:07.690
I mean, you're talking about someone you're talking about someone like Michael Sailor or whatever who, like, personally, between his company and his own holdings,
1382
01:41:08.395 --> 01:41:09.695
holds over a 150,000
1383
01:41:10.074 --> 01:41:14.415
Bitcoin. Right? And we're talking about 25 100 Bitcoin, 3,000 Bitcoin.
1384
01:41:15.275 --> 01:41:16.014
So we
1385
01:41:16.480 --> 01:41:17.220
so we
1386
01:41:17.920 --> 01:41:21.780
it's a it's a big hill for us to climb, and we need to get those numbers up
1387
01:41:22.240 --> 01:41:25.355
sooner rather than later because it it provides a
1388
01:41:26.855 --> 01:41:30.945
and we talked about this when you first came on about multisig. It provides almost a,
1389
01:41:33.110 --> 01:41:42.825
it's like a warning shot to people who want to attack. So when you talk about multi sig, it was this idea that if everyone if every attacker assumes that you have multi they're not gonna come into your house
1390
01:41:43.605 --> 01:41:52.510
and, break your knees to try and get, your Bitcoin because they'll just assume that it's in sig, and it's gonna be a long arduous process, and they're gonna have to go to multiple locations.
1391
01:41:53.450 --> 01:42:04.005
I think when it comes to state actors, when it comes to authoritarian governments that are trying to attack private Bitcoin users, if they see that number go up, if they see this privacy liquidity pool increase,
1392
01:42:05.344 --> 01:42:06.324
they might be
1393
01:42:07.730 --> 01:42:14.045
motivated to not try and attack the privacy of Bitcoin users because they know that there's a way out for them.
1394
01:42:14.925 --> 01:42:19.745
So I want to get that number up as soon as possible because I think it reduces the likelihood
1395
01:42:20.445 --> 01:42:22.145
of large scale state attack
1396
01:42:23.090 --> 01:42:24.789
on the on the privacy side.
1397
01:42:26.210 --> 01:42:29.270
Yeah. I think that that that thinking makes a lot of
1398
01:42:29.809 --> 01:42:31.825
sense, Matt, for sure. Yeah.
1399
01:42:32.605 --> 01:42:34.625
So right now, by the way, Farik's,
1400
01:42:36.045 --> 01:42:42.180
Kito is is dealing with a fire at his Fiat job. So right now, it's just, the Odell and Craig show,
1401
01:42:42.960 --> 01:42:45.700
but he'll he'll be back when he can be back. And,
1402
01:42:46.240 --> 01:42:49.860
Kito, if you're listening, just chime in when you're when you're talkable again.
1403
01:42:52.865 --> 01:42:55.125
So that was an interesting Whirlpool conversation.
1404
01:42:57.105 --> 01:43:00.480
What are your I have a bunch of things. Like, are are you
1405
01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:03.520
what are your thoughts on adding so so
1406
01:43:04.540 --> 01:43:12.425
so Samura has 2 things. Right? So Samura has Whirlpool, which is this coordinated coin joint. Right? Oh, so that was the other thing that join market
1407
01:43:13.145 --> 01:43:15.405
before I get distracted even more,
1408
01:43:16.140 --> 01:43:20.080
the trade off the join market made was they didn't want
1409
01:43:22.595 --> 01:43:27.175
that issue that I said with the Whirlpool coordinator. Right? Like, the Whirlpool coordinator could get shut down,
1410
01:43:28.195 --> 01:43:31.975
which is not a privacy risk, but it's a denial of service attack. Right?
1411
01:43:33.600 --> 01:43:34.100
So
1412
01:43:36.560 --> 01:43:36.880
the
1413
01:43:37.520 --> 01:43:48.074
as far as the join market devs concerned, and I had the 2 lead ones on, I had Belcher and Waxwing on, that's not a trade off they're willing to make. Right? So they wanted join market to be as censorship resistant as possible,
1414
01:43:48.470 --> 01:43:54.570
and that's why there's no centralized coordinator. Every round is coordinated by the maker themselves,
1415
01:43:55.805 --> 01:43:57.825
the person providing the liquidity.
1416
01:43:58.205 --> 01:44:00.225
No. It's actually coordinated by the taker,
1417
01:44:01.485 --> 01:44:03.665
so the maker doesn't know how it's coordinated.
1418
01:44:05.330 --> 01:44:08.870
So it's coordinated by each individual taker, and the taker will coordinate
1419
01:44:09.490 --> 01:44:09.990
maybe,
1420
01:44:11.250 --> 01:44:15.534
like, a a waterfall of 10 coin joints between 10 different makers.
1421
01:44:16.395 --> 01:44:17.295
And that way,
1422
01:44:18.235 --> 01:44:23.454
the individual makers like, as long as there's 1 or 2 individual makers in there that aren't malicious,
1423
01:44:23.860 --> 01:44:26.920
that they can't track the transaction through the the waterfall.
1424
01:44:28.260 --> 01:44:35.204
And the taker's coordinating also, the taker knows that I'm coordinating it so that the there's no malicious coordinator. I don't have to rely on a coordinator.
1425
01:44:36.465 --> 01:44:39.525
But in the reality of the world right now is
1426
01:44:40.120 --> 01:44:41.660
running a coin join coordinator,
1427
01:44:42.280 --> 01:44:43.100
is completely
1428
01:44:43.480 --> 01:44:43.980
allowed.
1429
01:44:44.680 --> 01:44:46.700
So if we can get away with that,
1430
01:44:47.125 --> 01:44:49.625
if we can get away with having a centralized coordinator
1431
01:44:49.925 --> 01:44:53.705
to make it an easier UX and a and a better liquidity profile,
1432
01:44:54.510 --> 01:45:01.489
then we should absolutely do that. And if we can't in the future, then, sure, by all means, we'll go to a more censorship resistant model,
1433
01:45:02.195 --> 01:45:07.094
where you don't have a centralized coordinator. But, in the meantime, if we can get away with it,
1434
01:45:07.554 --> 01:45:08.695
I think that's absolutely
1435
01:45:10.329 --> 01:45:10.989
a benefit.
1436
01:45:11.369 --> 01:45:16.590
And and this is like a it's a similar trade off, but even less so than you're talking about with, like,
1437
01:45:17.695 --> 01:45:18.435
these larger,
1438
01:45:19.054 --> 01:45:26.114
Electrum servers public Electrum servers that are run, because those public Electrum servers have a privacy risk attached to them. With this, it's all blinded.
1439
01:45:26.900 --> 01:45:29.960
So there's no privacy risk. It's just completely a
1440
01:45:30.980 --> 01:45:32.440
denial of service vector.
1441
01:45:34.055 --> 01:45:39.515
So, yeah, I mean, I so so so Samurai has the coordinated coin joints,
1442
01:45:40.375 --> 01:45:44.030
and then they also have collaborative transactions that are uncoordinated.
1443
01:45:44.570 --> 01:45:45.469
So they have
1444
01:45:46.570 --> 01:45:51.309
they have a fake coin join that they do, which is called Stonewall, which is what
1445
01:45:52.015 --> 01:45:56.355
all their transactions default to on the wallet, and that's just me with my own UTXOs.
1446
01:45:57.535 --> 01:46:10.360
When I do transaction, it looks on chain. It looks like it's a coin join, a 2 person coin join. Then they have Stonewall times 2, which is a actual 2 person coin join without a coordinator involved. It's just between the 2 parties.
1447
01:46:12.244 --> 01:46:15.065
And then they have the pay join, which they call stowaway,
1448
01:46:15.925 --> 01:46:16.905
which is a,
1449
01:46:18.900 --> 01:46:24.280
it it looks like an ordinary payment, but one of the inputs is provided by the receiver of the payment
1450
01:46:24.820 --> 01:46:27.239
to further throw off, chain analysis.
1451
01:46:29.195 --> 01:46:31.775
So they have a mix of these collaborative transactions.
1452
01:46:32.635 --> 01:46:33.295
Do you
1453
01:46:33.994 --> 01:46:37.135
foresee adding any of these non coordinated
1454
01:46:40.490 --> 01:46:44.270
collateral transactions in? I kinda think you have to,
1455
01:46:44.890 --> 01:46:48.235
because, you know, your post post mix, you can't just,
1456
01:46:49.015 --> 01:46:56.315
you know, treat it as you would any you know, it's you you need to think a bit about about that, and I think Semaurei actually advised you
1457
01:46:56.680 --> 01:47:01.580
kind of to keep your coins within your your sort of wallet to take advantage of those different
1458
01:47:02.360 --> 01:47:11.080
techniques that they have. So, yeah, I I mean, I I definitely see it as part of the overall thing. You know, you kind of have to build one feature at a time, but,
1459
01:47:11.960 --> 01:47:19.100
for sure, you know, those kind of you know? And that's that's kind of what I wanted to get onto is just being able to take advantage of
1460
01:47:24.365 --> 01:47:24.865
steganographic
1461
01:47:25.805 --> 01:47:26.305
techniques,
1462
01:47:27.485 --> 01:47:30.250
which is the things that you've just, you know, described.
1463
01:47:30.870 --> 01:47:32.969
I think that that's really important. So,
1464
01:47:34.070 --> 01:47:36.010
Sparrow does currently support,
1465
01:47:36.390 --> 01:47:37.530
the pay to endpoint
1466
01:47:37.985 --> 01:47:38.725
pay join.
1467
01:47:39.745 --> 01:47:44.005
And I I mean, I just think it's really cool. I just also think that it's,
1468
01:47:44.865 --> 01:47:47.285
it's got an incentive model, which doesn't
1469
01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:50.700
necessarily seem to work all that well. So I'm not
1470
01:47:51.080 --> 01:47:52.540
super hopeful that,
1471
01:47:53.160 --> 01:47:59.155
you know, BIP 78, I think is what it is, is gonna get widespread support. I really hope I'm wrong. But,
1472
01:48:00.034 --> 01:48:04.450
you know, I think we need to be building these additional methods in,
1473
01:48:05.410 --> 01:48:06.230
because, otherwise,
1474
01:48:06.690 --> 01:48:09.670
you know, all of that that sort of mixing that you've done
1475
01:48:10.050 --> 01:48:10.790
just becomes,
1476
01:48:11.570 --> 01:48:12.070
easily
1477
01:48:12.450 --> 01:48:15.284
you know, you you can kind of see what's going on unless you,
1478
01:48:17.605 --> 01:48:20.585
spend those post mix outputs in the right way.
1479
01:48:21.420 --> 01:48:22.239
Yeah. I mean,
1480
01:48:23.260 --> 01:48:29.199
so there's, like, an interesting piece of nuance here in terms of Sparrow, because I I imagine the majority of Sparrow users
1481
01:48:29.900 --> 01:48:30.400
are
1482
01:48:31.195 --> 01:48:36.175
keeping their keys cold on hardware wallets, whether that's single sig or multi sig.
1483
01:48:38.770 --> 01:48:39.270
And
1484
01:48:40.130 --> 01:48:41.510
the main trade off
1485
01:48:42.370 --> 01:48:44.710
with these coordinated coin joint protocols
1486
01:48:45.410 --> 01:48:46.150
or just
1487
01:48:48.345 --> 01:48:54.765
yeah. I guess the the main trade off with the 247 coordinated coin join protocol like Whirlpool is that the keys need to be hot,
1488
01:48:55.540 --> 01:48:57.639
if you wanna be participating. Right?
1489
01:48:58.980 --> 01:48:59.480
Obviously,
1490
01:48:59.940 --> 01:49:02.599
if you're gonna be a part of a multiparty transaction,
1491
01:49:04.505 --> 01:49:07.005
those keys need to be available to sign the transaction,
1492
01:49:07.785 --> 01:49:09.165
so they need to be hot.
1493
01:49:10.665 --> 01:49:11.565
With the uncoordinated
1494
01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:13.980
collaborative transactions,
1495
01:49:15.160 --> 01:49:15.980
whether that's
1496
01:49:17.000 --> 01:49:18.700
coin swaps, pay join,
1497
01:49:19.160 --> 01:49:21.260
or these 2 person coin joins,
1498
01:49:22.435 --> 01:49:24.375
or maybe even 3 person coin joins,
1499
01:49:25.315 --> 01:49:31.070
they only need to be hot when you're actually coordinating that when you're actually, you know, doing that transaction. Right?
1500
01:49:32.110 --> 01:49:32.849
So, presumably,
1501
01:49:33.150 --> 01:49:36.849
you can do that from a hardware wallet, from even a multisig setup relatively
1502
01:49:37.469 --> 01:49:38.690
easily if the UX,
1503
01:49:39.230 --> 01:49:40.530
facilitates it properly.
1504
01:49:42.824 --> 01:49:43.965
So, like, it's
1505
01:49:44.985 --> 01:49:48.445
in a in a lot of ways, in terms of UX flow,
1506
01:49:49.380 --> 01:49:50.440
it is probably
1507
01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:55.000
an easier thing to implement. I mean, you just you just talked about page 1p2ep.
1508
01:49:55.915 --> 01:49:59.695
Right? I I assume in Sparrow, the way it's implemented is, like, basically
1509
01:50:00.555 --> 01:50:05.760
well, one side is just always on. Right? It's like you're paying a BTC pay server, so they're already
1510
01:50:06.559 --> 01:50:08.980
hot. And then the side that has, you know,
1511
01:50:09.440 --> 01:50:20.545
hardware wallet set up, whether that's multisig or single sig, is basically deciding at will. I'm gonna do this transaction. So they're able to bring their keys hot just for that, or they're able to sign that transaction
1512
01:50:23.730 --> 01:50:26.070
at the time of of that transaction. Right?
1513
01:50:26.610 --> 01:50:39.645
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, that that that is the way it works. You know, one one kind of idea that I thought would be really cool, and I I this is kind of a long way way off, but, I mean, just imagine if we could use cold card c k bunker
1514
01:50:40.260 --> 01:50:47.800
feature to keep keep the the the sort of the keys cold while we participated in a whirl whirlpool. I mean, that would be,
1515
01:50:48.515 --> 01:50:58.290
you know, I think quite a big win. But, as I say, it's a long long kind of way off, to get to that point. But, you know, these are the kind of ideas that,
1516
01:50:59.310 --> 01:51:22.200
I think would make it much easier. Because, you know, if you're looking at it today and you're kind of looking at your cold storage stash and you're trying to decide, should I bring that out of cold storage, mix it, and then send it back in, you know, there's always the worry of bringing it into a hot wallet. Even if you do it a small part at a time, you know, it's it's it's just a reason. It's kind of a friction point that might make people,
1517
01:51:23.225 --> 01:51:24.045
not do it.
1518
01:51:24.505 --> 01:51:25.005
So,
1519
01:51:25.305 --> 01:51:29.680
you know, if we can remove that friction to some extent, we can we can make it
1520
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:37.140
just easier to make make that call. Yeah. I mean, this goes back to what I was discussing earlier about trade offs.
1521
01:51:38.275 --> 01:51:45.495
And I I mean, if you talk have you talked to, like, the samurai, ride or die? Like, privacy is all that matters. Privacy is your number one priority.
1522
01:51:47.480 --> 01:51:48.300
They would
1523
01:51:49.400 --> 01:51:50.699
advise you to
1524
01:51:51.000 --> 01:51:55.420
keep all your funds hot in Whirlpool constantly until it's time to spend,
1525
01:51:56.344 --> 01:51:58.525
because that'll give you the best privacy guarantees.
1526
01:51:59.224 --> 01:52:03.804
And then if you're talking to someone about security guarantees, they'll say you should keep it in a multisig,
1527
01:52:05.390 --> 01:52:06.370
multi jurisdictional.
1528
01:52:07.070 --> 01:52:14.050
Like, even if you wanna spend it, it's gonna take yourself a couple months and traveling around the world to to spend your funds.
1529
01:52:16.975 --> 01:52:17.475
And
1530
01:52:18.175 --> 01:52:18.995
and the realistic
1531
01:52:20.335 --> 01:52:20.835
scenario
1532
01:52:21.135 --> 01:52:25.190
for a lot of people, the practical scenario in the in the middle ground is
1533
01:52:25.810 --> 01:52:31.750
you keep a a decent amount of funds in Whirlpool that are constantly mixing, and you try and reduce that risk
1534
01:52:32.295 --> 01:52:34.394
by also having a cold storage
1535
01:52:34.855 --> 01:52:35.355
stack.
1536
01:52:37.094 --> 01:52:44.620
And when it comes time to spend, then you'll send from cold storage back into Whirlpool. Let it sit there for a while before you actually come to spend.
1537
01:52:45.239 --> 01:52:48.219
And then what you mentioned was, like, the CK bunker idea,
1538
01:52:49.005 --> 01:53:00.170
where that wouldn't actually be cold, but it'd be, like, cold ish, where you have, like, a plurality of your keys or c k bunker, which is this cold card, basically HSM mode, this hardware signing mode,
1539
01:53:01.110 --> 01:53:05.929
and you have it with a set number of rules. So, like, the rules are set in a way
1540
01:53:07.094 --> 01:53:11.835
that'll authorize a Whirlpool transaction, but it won't authorize draining the wallet,
1541
01:53:13.230 --> 01:53:16.350
which is, like, a very interesting middle ground to me. I think it's a
1542
01:53:17.630 --> 01:53:23.625
it could be very useful to people, and it it it would it would probably unlock more liquidity. People would be more comfortable
1543
01:53:24.085 --> 01:53:26.505
putting more funds in. Now
1544
01:53:27.205 --> 01:53:31.200
the reality of the situation, though, to go even farther back in this conversation,
1545
01:53:32.140 --> 01:53:32.800
is that
1546
01:53:34.220 --> 01:53:35.520
these are once again,
1547
01:53:36.060 --> 01:53:38.480
these are the same trade offs made on Lightning.
1548
01:53:38.805 --> 01:53:41.785
Like, with Lightning, your wallet is completely hot,
1549
01:53:42.165 --> 01:53:49.400
and a lot of times, you're actually even broadcasting your IP address, and and most people I don't know if anyone really using
1550
01:53:50.660 --> 01:53:53.480
a multisig setup with, like, signing policies
1551
01:53:54.075 --> 01:53:56.895
for their lightning wallet. So it's almost always single sig,
1552
01:53:58.955 --> 01:54:06.400
and there's a decent amount of funds there. There's whole businesses built in built on basically having these massive lightning hot wallets.
1553
01:54:08.620 --> 01:54:11.285
So I feel like there's more nuance there and room
1554
01:54:11.685 --> 01:54:13.625
for different trade off balances than
1555
01:54:14.405 --> 01:54:16.345
people give it credit for.
1556
01:54:17.845 --> 01:54:19.465
I don't think having
1557
01:54:19.845 --> 01:54:20.345
a,
1558
01:54:22.190 --> 01:54:26.050
you know, a subset of your funds hot, so you you're using Whirlpool,
1559
01:54:26.510 --> 01:54:30.130
is the biggest risk in the world. It is definitely an additional risk,
1560
01:54:31.335 --> 01:54:34.475
but it's just something that users need to keep in mind, basically.
1561
01:54:35.255 --> 01:54:40.350
Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. I think that all of that's very accurate in the way I would see it. So, you know,
1562
01:54:40.969 --> 01:54:44.590
have your cold storage stash. Make sure it is cold. Don't
1563
01:54:45.055 --> 01:55:07.455
load up your cold storage wallet when you don't need those those funds. You know? By all means, like, do your key key checks. You know? Make sure you can spend from the wallet from time to time to time. That's important to do. But your cold storage wallet, the the whole idea is that it should be be sort of cold. And then you keep a certain amount of funds, which you can then send send through will Whirlpool and spend from there,
1564
01:55:08.235 --> 01:55:09.455
and they're 2 separate
1565
01:55:09.835 --> 01:55:10.335
mounts.
1566
01:55:10.715 --> 01:55:11.775
I think that that's
1567
01:55:12.219 --> 01:55:15.199
the best in class at this moment in time. Yeah.
1568
01:55:18.300 --> 01:55:19.360
Okay. I mean,
1569
01:55:21.055 --> 01:55:23.795
these are my favorite topics, but, damn, they're fucking deep.
1570
01:55:24.574 --> 01:55:25.074
Yep.
1571
01:55:26.415 --> 01:55:32.550
Yeah. I mean, page 1, I think you kinda hit the nail on the head, man. I like, I people like to hand wave, like, page 1 will be,
1572
01:55:33.250 --> 01:55:34.710
you know, this great stenographic
1573
01:55:35.010 --> 01:55:36.950
tool for us. But I I just
1574
01:55:39.395 --> 01:55:42.115
I don't know if, like, the incentives there are just
1575
01:55:42.995 --> 01:55:45.415
Yeah. They don't they they just don't seem to,
1576
01:55:47.130 --> 01:55:56.825
I I don't know. They it it you know, what you have to have is a merchant who wants to take part, and, you know, they have no particular incentive to do that unless they just care about the privacy
1577
01:55:57.525 --> 01:55:58.025
of
1578
01:55:58.965 --> 01:56:03.625
the customers who are paying them, which is not a zero thing, but it's it's it's not
1579
01:56:04.090 --> 01:56:05.390
a financial thing.
1580
01:56:06.330 --> 01:56:10.030
And then, you know, you you kind of have to obviously, as
1581
01:56:10.410 --> 01:56:15.684
the consumer paying the merchant, you have to spend a little bit more in fees because you're including an extra input.
1582
01:56:15.985 --> 01:56:23.739
Right. So, you know, so it's it's just, you know, neither of those two things are are major, and I I I would definitely
1583
01:56:24.120 --> 01:56:25.020
consider it,
1584
01:56:26.520 --> 01:56:29.625
a a net positive to use it if I could. But,
1585
01:56:30.425 --> 01:56:35.805
whether everyone else will see it that that way, it's it's it's harder to see that being the outcome
1586
01:56:36.540 --> 01:56:38.240
or at least becoming the default.
1587
01:56:38.860 --> 01:56:42.240
So It's especially since it's competing with
1588
01:56:42.780 --> 01:56:44.640
it's competing with Lightning transactions.
1589
01:56:45.625 --> 01:56:48.045
And on Lightning, our big issue is
1590
01:56:48.425 --> 01:56:49.485
receiver privacy.
1591
01:56:51.065 --> 01:56:53.565
But if if if you're a diligent
1592
01:56:53.980 --> 01:56:58.000
Bitcoin user and you want sender privacy on on Bitcoin,
1593
01:56:59.579 --> 01:57:09.025
with lightning, you know, you you either spin up a you spin up your own node really quick. Open Arms talks about this a lot. You, like, spin up your own node. You fund it with a a coin join UTXO,
1594
01:57:10.110 --> 01:57:19.330
and you you make payments with that for a couple months, and then you shut it down. And and that's gonna give you a way less fee burden than if you use PayJoin, and that's gonna constantly
1595
01:57:22.335 --> 01:57:23.155
that incentive
1596
01:57:23.695 --> 01:57:26.800
between Lightning and PayJoin will will constantly be there.
1597
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:32.500
If if you I all of these assumptions rely on a high fee environment, though, so
1598
01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:34.340
I'm literally watching
1599
01:57:35.975 --> 01:57:36.955
why we're we're
1600
01:57:37.655 --> 01:57:42.235
watching the mempool dot space, and it's just completely empty right now. So who knows?
1601
01:57:42.670 --> 01:57:52.449
Yeah. That's true. What are your thoughts about Coinswap, Matt? So, I mean, you know, I I I kind of really like the idea. I think it it looks
1602
01:57:52.975 --> 01:57:53.955
super interesting.
1603
01:57:55.135 --> 01:57:58.035
Again, I wore I I sort of wonder about the incentives
1604
01:57:59.600 --> 01:58:02.660
behind it. But the thing that I, you know, I've seen talked about is,
1605
01:58:03.840 --> 01:58:08.020
you know, what is the market like for people who who want to exchange
1606
01:58:08.320 --> 01:58:11.875
their coin history? You know? Is that some something that,
1607
01:58:13.375 --> 01:58:19.290
is attractive to people? Because you don't know what coin history you're gonna gonna get. Right? Yeah. And then what are you gonna do?
1608
01:58:19.670 --> 01:58:22.250
You're gonna chain analysis your fucking
1609
01:58:23.190 --> 01:58:24.570
new coin that you got?
1610
01:58:25.165 --> 01:58:37.639
Yeah. I mean, it's that's the one question that I haven't fully figured out in my own own mind mind yet. I'm just not sure about that one. So I'm trying to check my biases here, so hopefully, you can help me.
1611
01:58:38.179 --> 01:58:38.679
But
1612
01:58:39.059 --> 01:58:39.719
to me,
1613
01:58:40.260 --> 01:58:44.094
when we talk about all these things, when we talk about Lightning, when we talk about PayJoint,
1614
01:58:44.395 --> 01:58:46.015
when we talk about coin swaps,
1615
01:58:46.635 --> 01:58:48.335
when we talk about atomic swaps,
1616
01:58:51.080 --> 01:58:53.260
to me, these are all post mix tools.
1617
01:58:54.920 --> 01:58:58.139
So I think I think you do coin joints first,
1618
01:59:00.585 --> 01:59:01.405
and CoinJoins,
1619
01:59:01.865 --> 01:59:03.485
it's interesting. Right? Because
1620
01:59:04.345 --> 01:59:05.645
the main negative,
1621
01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:12.179
the perceived main negative of CoinJoin, besides the cost, because it is definitely cost you more if you use CoinJoin,
1622
01:59:13.925 --> 01:59:17.225
The main perceived negative is that it's really visible on chain.
1623
01:59:18.485 --> 01:59:21.705
But with when you talk about the negatives of something like Coinswap,
1624
01:59:22.970 --> 01:59:26.190
the the main negative is actually probably the exact opposite.
1625
01:59:28.330 --> 01:59:32.350
Where if I do, like, a Coinswap with you, and let's just say, like, in the most
1626
01:59:34.715 --> 01:59:42.409
yeah. I I don't know. Like, it's connected to a sanctioned address or something. Right? But let's say, like, the most is connected to, like, a known ransomware gang,
1627
01:59:43.429 --> 01:59:45.130
and then I spend that somewhere.
1628
01:59:45.510 --> 01:59:46.170
And then
1629
01:59:46.550 --> 01:59:50.015
on chain, it looks like that was just my UTXO the whole fucking time,
1630
01:59:50.635 --> 01:59:54.415
so then I can get in trouble for that. But with with coin joint
1631
01:59:54.715 --> 01:59:56.575
with these equal output coin joints
1632
01:59:57.270 --> 02:00:02.570
on on chain, it's very obvious you did a coin joint, and that's perceived as a negative. But to me,
1633
02:00:03.350 --> 02:00:04.490
that's kind of
1634
02:00:06.465 --> 02:00:08.085
it's it's it's kind of
1635
02:00:08.465 --> 02:00:09.685
parallel to
1636
02:00:11.025 --> 02:00:11.525
encryption
1637
02:00:12.225 --> 02:00:14.885
with when when I when I send an encrypted message,
1638
02:00:15.740 --> 02:00:17.680
an observer doesn't know what
1639
02:00:18.460 --> 02:00:22.000
if the encryption sound, the observer doesn't know what's in the message.
1640
02:00:22.755 --> 02:00:25.335
Right? But they know that I sent an encrypted message.
1641
02:00:26.594 --> 02:00:28.614
You know, if you if you use a VPN,
1642
02:00:29.074 --> 02:00:32.150
your ISP and your government know that you're encrypting your Internet
1643
02:00:32.710 --> 02:00:41.770
traffic. If they don't collude with the VPN provider who's actually encrypting your traffic, who's your counterparty there, they don't know what your actual traffic is, but they know it's encrypted.
1644
02:00:42.975 --> 02:00:44.995
So to me, CoinJoin are actually
1645
02:00:46.095 --> 02:00:51.235
this this it's brilliant that it's on chain and it's it's visible on chain that that
1646
02:00:51.750 --> 02:00:55.370
it's a privacy seeking collaborative transaction where it breaks
1647
02:00:55.750 --> 02:01:01.050
the history and the the forward the the forward tracking and the and the history of it.
1648
02:01:01.615 --> 02:01:02.595
So to me,
1649
02:01:03.055 --> 02:01:04.435
CoinJoin should be
1650
02:01:05.295 --> 02:01:08.115
the de facto standard in all of these wallets,
1651
02:01:08.670 --> 02:01:17.490
and then all these other tools, whether that's opening up a Lightning channel, doing a pay join, doing a coin swap, are something that happens after this,
1652
02:01:18.335 --> 02:01:19.715
equal output coin join.
1653
02:01:21.615 --> 02:01:33.500
Okay. Sure, Matt. But why would you coin swap after your coin coin joined? What would be the incentive behind that? Because I know Chris Belcher, the author of coins Coinswap says that Coinswap is a replacement for CoinJoin.
1654
02:01:34.280 --> 02:01:34.780
Right.
1655
02:01:35.095 --> 02:01:35.595
So,
1656
02:01:36.135 --> 02:01:37.275
you know, what would be
1657
02:01:37.655 --> 02:01:39.995
would it would it be sort of some way after
1658
02:01:40.375 --> 02:01:47.320
the the CoinJoin has taken place that you would find the need to Coinswap? Or Well, so, like, the Belcher's dream,
1659
02:01:48.500 --> 02:01:50.599
I and I I fucking love Chris.
1660
02:01:51.300 --> 02:01:53.400
Big supporter of his work. I'm I
1661
02:01:54.015 --> 02:02:01.395
I I financially contribute to his work. I advocate for his work. I loved having him on the show. Love having conversations with him.
1662
02:02:02.370 --> 02:02:05.990
The dream for Chris with Coinswaps is that if we have, like,
1663
02:02:07.490 --> 02:02:07.990
40%
1664
02:02:08.425 --> 02:02:11.885
of Bitcoiners using coin swaps without CoinJoin, just coin swaps,
1665
02:02:13.065 --> 02:02:16.684
the chain analysis companies and the governments that they serve,
1666
02:02:17.720 --> 02:02:23.660
and the corporate surveillance companies that they serve will just hand in the towel, and they'll be like, there's no way for us to
1667
02:02:24.360 --> 02:02:24.860
reasonably
1668
02:02:25.320 --> 02:02:25.820
assume
1669
02:02:26.565 --> 02:02:30.825
that this transaction is owned by this person because so many people are using coin swaps.
1670
02:02:31.285 --> 02:02:41.120
Now the problem there is that pain point from 0 to 40% or whatever the threshold you wanna say is the threshold where we have enough Bitcoin transactions that are using coin swaps
1671
02:02:41.585 --> 02:02:44.325
that it completely throws all your assumptions out the window.
1672
02:02:44.865 --> 02:02:47.285
That that bootstrap period,
1673
02:02:48.625 --> 02:02:51.205
is super dangerous to users in my mind,
1674
02:02:51.890 --> 02:02:54.150
because, like we said earlier, you're gonna get,
1675
02:02:54.930 --> 02:03:00.470
you know, you're gonna get other people's coins, and you're not gonna really know what the history is of those coins,
1676
02:03:00.845 --> 02:03:09.425
And we're gonna have naive chain analysis companies and the governments they serve just assuming that it's yours. And even if you end up defending yourself in court or something,
1677
02:03:09.760 --> 02:03:16.820
it's gonna cost a lot of money. It's gonna be a huge fucking headache, and maybe you'll have accounts closed and all this other shit that you have to fucking deal with.
1678
02:03:17.255 --> 02:03:18.074
So that that
1679
02:03:18.454 --> 02:03:19.915
middle ground to me is
1680
02:03:21.175 --> 02:03:24.554
is almost untenable. Like, I we have a hard enough time
1681
02:03:25.540 --> 02:03:28.840
trying to get CoinJoin usage up. If you have that additional
1682
02:03:29.780 --> 02:03:30.840
concern that
1683
02:03:32.179 --> 02:03:35.159
that you don't really know, you know, who you're swapping with
1684
02:03:35.525 --> 02:03:36.825
and that you might face
1685
02:03:37.445 --> 02:03:39.145
punishment based on what you get,
1686
02:03:41.365 --> 02:03:46.199
it it's obviously gonna hinder adoption. Now why would someone use it as a post mix tool?
1687
02:03:46.739 --> 02:03:54.435
The reason someone use it as a post mix tool is because it it will literally it literally breaks the link on chain. Right? So on CoinJoin,
1688
02:03:54.895 --> 02:03:56.995
when they use these equal output Coin Joins,
1689
02:03:57.535 --> 02:03:58.035
you're
1690
02:03:59.375 --> 02:04:02.675
you're muddying the probability waters. Right? Like, the
1691
02:04:03.510 --> 02:04:05.930
tracking Bitcoin's a probability game. So
1692
02:04:06.550 --> 02:04:11.930
every every every time someone tracks Bitcoin, they're they're they're making assumptions
1693
02:04:12.575 --> 02:04:14.115
and they're assigning probability,
1694
02:04:15.215 --> 02:04:23.000
you know, with with these new chain analysis surveillance softwares or whatever. They do it behind the scenes, and they have a pretty UX. Right? But but, basically, what's happening is
1695
02:04:23.540 --> 02:04:27.560
they're assigning probabilities to every transaction to whether or not ownership has changed.
1696
02:04:28.100 --> 02:04:29.080
Right? And
1697
02:04:31.285 --> 02:04:38.805
in particular instances, it's very fucking obvious. Right? Like, if you if you make a transaction and one one output has
1698
02:04:41.360 --> 02:04:50.605
one output is to a wrap SegWit address, a 3 address, and the other output is back to a a native Segwit, a b c one address, and you sent from a b c one address,
1699
02:04:50.985 --> 02:04:53.645
the b c one output is obviously your change.
1700
02:04:54.265 --> 02:04:59.880
You paid you paid a you paid a wrap Segwit address, and your your change is the native SegWit. So that's obvious.
1701
02:05:00.580 --> 02:05:09.455
If you if you pay people like paying in round numbers. So, Craig, if I donate to you and I donate a 1000000 sats and then the change is, like,
1702
02:05:09.915 --> 02:05:10.415
432,000
1703
02:05:11.115 --> 02:05:11.615
sats,
1704
02:05:12.075 --> 02:05:12.575
956
1705
02:05:13.115 --> 02:05:17.920
or something, Like, that is obviously my change, and my donation was the round number.
1706
02:05:19.659 --> 02:05:25.575
So there there's certain heuristics that are, like, pretty obvious probability wise, and then there's ones that are
1707
02:05:26.195 --> 02:05:28.695
that that they're making bigger guesses. And with CoinJoin,
1708
02:05:29.440 --> 02:05:34.900
they're make their their probability gets completely thrown out the window. If you use a a Whirlpool CoinJoin,
1709
02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:41.844
you have 5 UTXs go in, and there's no deterministic links. There's, like, 10,000 different combinations that could be
1710
02:05:42.465 --> 02:05:44.485
that transaction of the way it happened,
1711
02:05:45.185 --> 02:05:54.869
and you could be any of those 5 leaving the pool. And then all of a sudden, if if that if 2 of those people go into another round, then it makes it it makes it even more cloudy of a situation.
1712
02:05:56.395 --> 02:05:59.534
With coin swaps, you literally just break the chain.
1713
02:05:59.835 --> 02:06:00.975
You're not even,
1714
02:06:02.155 --> 02:06:03.695
you're not fucking with the probabilities.
1715
02:06:04.340 --> 02:06:06.360
You're taking someone else's UTXO,
1716
02:06:07.780 --> 02:06:16.085
that is completely not connected to you on chain. So it's it's more similar to, like, one of these custodial mixers where, like, you send them Bitcoin, they send you someone else's Bitcoin.
1717
02:06:17.825 --> 02:06:18.885
So if you need
1718
02:06:19.985 --> 02:06:21.045
the best privacy,
1719
02:06:22.080 --> 02:06:26.020
your your your best solution will would probably be,
1720
02:06:26.400 --> 02:06:27.139
you know,
1721
02:06:27.840 --> 02:06:30.580
equal output coin join, and then go into Coinswaps.
1722
02:06:31.375 --> 02:06:40.675
Now why would the average user use coin swaps? Maybe they wouldn't, and that's fine. But if there's a subset of users, then all of a sudden this whole coin swaps idea
1723
02:06:41.280 --> 02:06:41.780
of
1724
02:06:43.840 --> 02:06:44.820
of, you know,
1725
02:06:45.679 --> 02:06:46.179
steganographic,
1726
02:06:47.120 --> 02:06:51.764
privacy, this idea that it looks like a normal transaction, but it's really a coin swap.
1727
02:06:52.065 --> 02:07:00.440
If there's some people leaving the pool and going into coin swaps, then you have to basically basically operate under the assumption that anyone leaving the pool could be a coin swap.
1728
02:07:00.980 --> 02:07:04.985
So it it it improves the privacy of all participants of
1729
02:07:05.945 --> 02:07:11.405
equal output coin joins if you're in the same liquidity pool if a subset of those users are using coin swaps,
1730
02:07:11.864 --> 02:07:12.525
I think.
1731
02:07:13.190 --> 02:07:22.905
Yeah. That that makes some some sense. So we could actually see how, you know, the way that the coin swap is coordinators is with these message boards or at least that's what's been put forward
1732
02:07:23.364 --> 02:07:25.145
now. So you could maybe even see
1733
02:07:25.605 --> 02:07:33.900
how, you know, somebody could say, listen. I only want a coin swap as with, the output from a coin coin join. I don't wanna coin swap with anything else.
1734
02:07:34.920 --> 02:07:42.885
Well, you only need so so Chris is operating under his joint market model where he doesn't want any centralized server.
1735
02:07:43.665 --> 02:07:51.429
Right? Because because that's obviously less censorship resistant. That server could get shut down. But you could have a blinded centralized Coinswap server
1736
02:07:52.025 --> 02:07:56.045
that only allows post Whirlpool UTXOs to be in the Coinswap.
1737
02:07:56.425 --> 02:07:59.245
Exactly. And and then you don't even have to coordinate amounts,
1738
02:07:59.740 --> 02:08:01.440
because all the amounts are already equal.
1739
02:08:02.140 --> 02:08:09.945
Yeah. Yeah. And and and, you know, then then you you basically don't have to worry about the coin history thing nearly as much. You know? I think I think
1740
02:08:10.645 --> 02:08:11.385
that that world
1741
02:08:11.685 --> 02:08:13.864
could could just make it a bit easier,
1742
02:08:14.165 --> 02:08:15.065
for the Coinswap
1743
02:08:16.965 --> 02:08:17.465
to
1744
02:08:17.910 --> 02:08:18.650
be a
1745
02:08:18.950 --> 02:08:20.090
more attractive option.
1746
02:08:22.790 --> 02:08:23.850
Kito, you're back?
1747
02:08:24.310 --> 02:08:29.844
Yeah. I I'm back. Is isn't that pretty close actually to what Stonewall 2 x is doing?
1748
02:08:30.864 --> 02:08:35.204
So Stonewall 2 x is a is a coin join. It's a 2 person coin join.
1749
02:08:36.490 --> 02:08:36.990
Yeah.
1750
02:08:37.370 --> 02:08:37.870
Right.
1751
02:08:38.250 --> 02:08:49.365
Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a similar concept. Right? Where if the majority of people using just regular Stonewall, which is a one person coin joint that looks like a 2 person coin joint, and then some people are using the 2 person coin joint,
1752
02:08:49.745 --> 02:08:58.159
then you kinda have to operate under the assumption that every time you see one of those, it could be a 2 person coin joined even though the majority of them are probably 1 person coin joins.
1753
02:09:01.915 --> 02:09:07.295
But, yes, it's a it's a similar concept, and and that's why I think it's just good to have all these different post mix tools.
1754
02:09:07.595 --> 02:09:09.695
But I I mean, I also think I'm
1755
02:09:10.280 --> 02:09:13.659
part of the minority that thinks Lightning's a post mix tool,
1756
02:09:13.960 --> 02:09:18.765
unless you get onboarded directly to Lightning, which might be a thing in, you know, a high fee,
1757
02:09:19.325 --> 02:09:20.705
high sustained fee market.
1758
02:09:21.245 --> 02:09:22.065
I don't know.
1759
02:09:22.445 --> 02:09:27.985
Once again, I don't know how when that's gonna happen because I was completely caught off guard by the current one we're in.
1760
02:09:30.040 --> 02:09:39.775
But but if you're coming from unchained, you should always it should be coin joined into lightning every time, period. Back to the that coin swap and inheriting someone else's
1761
02:09:40.075 --> 02:09:40.975
coin history,
1762
02:09:41.595 --> 02:09:42.895
I I think I personally
1763
02:09:43.590 --> 02:09:44.090
prefer
1764
02:09:44.950 --> 02:09:46.490
to go straight from,
1765
02:09:47.190 --> 02:09:48.570
mixing to spending,
1766
02:09:49.670 --> 02:09:51.530
because at least I know that,
1767
02:09:52.885 --> 02:09:56.825
these coins the only history visible history of my coins is the mixing.
1768
02:09:57.845 --> 02:10:10.380
So yeah. Unless the coins what happens with someone who with also some coins straight from the mixer, I probably not use that. Yeah. I mean, what what I'm envisioning here, and it's what the Samura guys have talked about,
1769
02:10:10.865 --> 02:10:11.845
is that all participants
1770
02:10:12.225 --> 02:10:13.925
would be post mixed. Yep.
1771
02:10:16.145 --> 02:10:17.925
So it just it just furthers
1772
02:10:18.700 --> 02:10:21.360
the privacy guarantees that you would get
1773
02:10:22.620 --> 02:10:24.620
rather than if you were just plain,
1774
02:10:27.255 --> 02:10:31.675
if you were just just purely using CoinJoin. Right? Is that really different
1775
02:10:32.215 --> 02:10:33.995
from just one more round?
1776
02:10:38.800 --> 02:10:41.780
I mean, that's all numbers. Right? I I don't know.
1777
02:10:43.835 --> 02:10:44.974
Good good question.
1778
02:10:45.594 --> 02:10:46.094
Yeah.
1779
02:10:46.635 --> 02:10:47.594
That is a good question.
1780
02:10:48.074 --> 02:10:58.560
Yeah. I maybe maybe not. Maybe not if they're the same liquidity pool and you're swapping with your own liquidity pool and except that I think it makes the liquidity pool denser.
1781
02:11:00.055 --> 02:11:06.395
Right? Like, you're just adding another link between 2 rounds within that wider liquidity pool that didn't exist previously.
1782
02:11:08.440 --> 02:11:11.100
And maybe maybe you have time as a constraint.
1783
02:11:11.800 --> 02:11:13.820
Right? We both know that remixing
1784
02:11:14.360 --> 02:11:16.620
and the the way Whirlpool's implemented
1785
02:11:18.105 --> 02:11:19.005
takes a while.
1786
02:11:19.945 --> 02:11:21.485
But if you have a time constraint,
1787
02:11:22.425 --> 02:11:27.980
and let's say you're a mobile user and you just do one Whirlpool round and then you go into a coin swap,
1788
02:11:29.160 --> 02:11:32.140
you're getting probably significantly more privacy,
1789
02:11:32.920 --> 02:11:34.435
than you would otherwise. Right?
1790
02:11:38.915 --> 02:11:39.575
Yeah. Probably.
1791
02:11:40.515 --> 02:11:41.015
Yeah.
1792
02:11:43.520 --> 02:11:46.180
I don't know. We're on the bleeding edge of all this shit.
1793
02:11:46.560 --> 02:11:48.260
No one really wants to talk about it.
1794
02:11:49.120 --> 02:11:53.195
And and so I I I think it's the same situation for atomic swaps.
1795
02:11:54.455 --> 02:11:58.155
Right? So coin swaps are atomic swaps that happen on Bitcoin only,
1796
02:11:58.690 --> 02:12:01.430
and then atomic swaps is more generally
1797
02:12:02.130 --> 02:12:05.590
alluded to as going into an alt chain and then switching back.
1798
02:12:06.210 --> 02:12:06.710
Yeah.
1799
02:12:07.764 --> 02:12:14.105
The most common one being cited is is Monero because it has confidential transactions already built in
1800
02:12:15.760 --> 02:12:16.820
and ring signatures.
1801
02:12:18.160 --> 02:12:21.460
So, basically, every Monero transaction is a coin join.
1802
02:12:22.880 --> 02:12:25.220
And it's the same thing, because you hear the Monero
1803
02:12:26.775 --> 02:12:32.155
stands, they they'll they'll say that they don't wanna swap with a Bitcoin user because they don't want that Bitcoin history.
1804
02:12:33.790 --> 02:12:34.290
Interesting.
1805
02:12:34.750 --> 02:12:37.970
So making it a post mix tool solves that, and
1806
02:12:40.165 --> 02:12:45.305
and this is one of the the interesting back and forths I have with the Monero group is that,
1807
02:12:45.685 --> 02:13:00.535
you know, they say that coin join is not something that should be worked on. Like, you should just switch to Monero, but at the same time, in the same breath, they'll say they won't swap they won't trade their Monero for Bitcoin because the majority of Bitcoin that's being traded for Monero has bad history attached to it.
1808
02:13:01.235 --> 02:13:01.955
Okay. So,
1809
02:13:02.515 --> 02:13:06.935
anything that you swap with Monero should automatically be coin joined. It should all be post mix.
1810
02:13:11.220 --> 02:13:11.720
Yeah.
1811
02:13:12.420 --> 02:13:13.960
I literally think that
1812
02:13:14.805 --> 02:13:24.505
we should make as many transactions as possible coin join. Literally, everything we talk about should be a post mix tool, basically, after coin join. Like, the the default on chain should be
1813
02:13:25.610 --> 02:13:32.989
coin join. Even if it's even if it's a fake coin join like a stone wall, and it just looks like a coin join, it should at least be a decoy coin join.
1814
02:13:33.395 --> 02:13:41.655
Now the the major issue there is block space and fees. Right? Because if you're faking a coin join every transaction, you're gonna pay significantly more in fees.
1815
02:13:51.415 --> 02:13:54.614
But I, you know, I think privacy is worth it. I I don't know. I,
1816
02:13:55.495 --> 02:13:58.075
it it's it's definitely not an easy solution.
1817
02:13:58.989 --> 02:14:00.849
There's no there's no easy solution.
1818
02:14:04.429 --> 02:14:11.795
No. There's nothing. Yeah. I mean, people can use wallets that don't do that. I just think that we should be pushing at least the
1819
02:14:12.175 --> 02:14:20.690
the free open source wallets that the community really the hardcore community likes should should all have, you know, some kind of collaborative transaction tools built in automatically.
1820
02:14:23.150 --> 02:14:33.805
Yeah. And I think, you know, the the sort of challenge here is to build them in an easy to use use way. You know, that's not to say that the tools built today are super hard hard to use, but
1821
02:14:34.580 --> 02:14:40.760
I like to believe that things can always be easier and make more more sense, and the sort of UI can help help with that. So,
1822
02:14:41.140 --> 02:14:42.520
yeah, I think that that's
1823
02:14:42.905 --> 02:14:45.005
definitely something that we can work on.
1824
02:14:45.385 --> 02:14:47.645
You know, now that we've got the kind of basic,
1825
02:14:48.745 --> 02:14:55.090
we we're sort of starting to figure out what works and what doesn't, not only from an implementation, but also from an incentive
1826
02:14:55.469 --> 02:15:03.034
point of view, I think we can start tweak the sort of UI, which is which always comes later on. You know? You kind of you have to,
1827
02:15:04.054 --> 02:15:06.074
just get the thing to work first, and then
1828
02:15:06.430 --> 02:15:11.090
you can kind of iterate over the UI and kind of make it easy for people to use. Because,
1829
02:15:11.470 --> 02:15:17.775
you know, I mean, I I've I've sort of been through Will Whirlpool, and it's it's great, but it's it certainly wasn't obvious
1830
02:15:18.235 --> 02:15:24.635
to me at all times exactly what was going going on. I kind of had to read and go back back to the docs and stuff. So,
1831
02:15:25.580 --> 02:15:27.440
I'm sure that I'm not alone in that.
1832
02:15:28.140 --> 02:15:33.040
And, you know, that's what good UX does is it kind of just makes it makes it easier.
1833
02:15:33.625 --> 02:15:35.085
You kind of you feel
1834
02:15:35.625 --> 02:15:37.885
secure and in control as you're doing it.
1835
02:15:38.665 --> 02:15:40.685
To be clear here, I don't pretend
1836
02:15:41.810 --> 02:15:42.310
to
1837
02:15:42.850 --> 02:15:44.630
know all the answers. Right?
1838
02:15:48.050 --> 02:15:51.394
I just I just I think the status quo right now
1839
02:15:51.855 --> 02:15:53.474
is so poor for privacy
1840
02:15:53.934 --> 02:15:55.954
that these discussions need to be had.
1841
02:15:57.510 --> 02:16:01.449
These discussions need to be had, and we need to push the ecosystem forward because,
1842
02:16:02.310 --> 02:16:11.725
if we stay at the status quo, the end result is 99% of Bitcoin users' full financial transaction history is being tracked constantly relatively easily.
1843
02:16:13.450 --> 02:16:15.230
And the discussion, it just isn't
1844
02:16:15.690 --> 02:16:24.844
happening really. And I I I the one of the reasons I started dispatch in the first place was because I think these topics need, you know, open discussion on a constant basis.
1845
02:16:28.745 --> 02:16:52.580
Yeah. And I, you know, that's right. But I I think as I'm saying saying, it's it's sort of you know, if you look at how far we've come with multisync, you know, I mean, just a few years years years ago, it was really hard. I mean, like, almost to the point where you would have to write your own code in order to get a multisig wallet up. Like, there there was almost no other way to do it. And, you know, if you wanted to use hard hardware wallets as well, you know,
1846
02:16:53.600 --> 02:16:55.220
you were basically you know,
1847
02:16:56.535 --> 02:17:04.315
It was just gonna gonna be super, super, super hard. So now it's it's just a few years down down the line, and it's become much easier.
1848
02:17:05.590 --> 02:17:08.409
So it's really about trying to get the incentive
1849
02:17:08.790 --> 02:17:11.050
right and then get the sort of UX right,
1850
02:17:11.510 --> 02:17:13.529
in order to make these these things
1851
02:17:14.795 --> 02:17:19.775
become part of people's lives. So it's just become some something that you do because
1852
02:17:20.556 --> 02:17:24.311
you you realize that it's the best idea. And,
1853
02:17:25.011 --> 02:17:27.190
if you don't do it, you're likely to
1854
02:17:27.570 --> 02:17:31.045
worry about it, or it's gonna become the sort of mental load that I was
1855
02:17:31.685 --> 02:17:35.064
talk talking about earlier. You know, you're kind of thinking, oh, well,
1856
02:17:35.525 --> 02:17:42.920
I haven't done that right. So now people are gonna know about my transactions. They may gonna gonna know how much I'm being paid. They're gonna know where I spend.
1857
02:17:43.300 --> 02:17:49.455
You know, all of these things that we think about that other people are not think thinking about, that I think
1858
02:17:49.835 --> 02:17:52.016
needs to become, you know, clearer. And,
1859
02:17:53.355 --> 02:17:55.210
I I just have a belief that good
1860
02:17:55.930 --> 02:18:00.670
good soft soft software can help make it obvious. You know, if you can, for example,
1861
02:18:01.290 --> 02:18:03.150
you know, show somebody in a UI
1862
02:18:03.530 --> 02:18:04.030
how
1863
02:18:04.516 --> 02:18:05.575
the different UTXOs,
1864
02:18:06.436 --> 02:18:25.825
or difference of TXOs as they are spent are connected to each other. You can kinda kind of say, well, did you know that Joe Blogs, who you paid the other day, knows how much you earn because your the salary went straight up to him, and the change then came back. It was a round amount as you were saying saying that. So those kind of things
1865
02:18:26.285 --> 02:18:29.186
people don't think think about, but it's mainly just because they're hidden.
1866
02:18:29.930 --> 02:18:30.670
And as
1867
02:18:31.050 --> 02:18:35.630
Bitcoin itself and, you know, the way that it works becomes more
1868
02:18:36.090 --> 02:18:36.750
well understood,
1869
02:18:37.665 --> 02:18:44.405
So, you know, the soft software can can evolve and just show you what's going going on. And that's kind of
1870
02:18:45.970 --> 02:18:47.430
the the ethos behind
1871
02:18:47.970 --> 02:18:50.310
showing as much detail as I do in
1872
02:18:50.689 --> 02:18:55.614
the wallet that I build. It's just, you know, I think it's important because if you don't know the stuff,
1873
02:18:56.234 --> 02:18:56.895
then, ultimately,
1874
02:18:57.354 --> 02:19:00.255
it's gonna hurt hurt you. You you need to understand
1875
02:19:00.740 --> 02:19:12.136
how the protocol works to some degree. Otherwise, you're always going to be you know, there's always gonna be people who unders who understand that kind of use that knowledge against against against you, at least can.
1876
02:19:12.835 --> 02:19:17.395
Yeah. Sovereignty and personal responsibility is always gonna be more difficult no matter what,
1877
02:19:18.391 --> 02:19:20.570
because it requires some responsibility of the user.
1878
02:19:21.190 --> 02:19:22.730
So I I don't expect
1879
02:19:23.351 --> 02:19:26.730
that we will have a 100% penetration with these types of things,
1880
02:19:28.215 --> 02:19:35.435
but I want it to get to a point where someone who realizes the need is able to access them and use them effectively
1881
02:19:36.181 --> 02:19:40.360
without too much effort. I I think a perfect example right now
1882
02:19:41.061 --> 02:19:41.880
is this,
1883
02:19:42.181 --> 02:19:44.601
you know, this El Salvador legal tender law.
1884
02:19:44.995 --> 02:19:49.095
Is, like, if we have people right now, you know, buying sandwiches and stuff,
1885
02:19:51.315 --> 02:20:05.796
we we don't want the person they pay for the sandwich to know how much money they have or how much money they're making, and we don't want their government to know either. And we don't want the 1,000,000 different corporations that all want to leverage that information for ads and monetization,
1886
02:20:06.976 --> 02:20:09.775
to have that information either. And it's it's a very
1887
02:20:10.450 --> 02:20:13.110
this is not a, you know, an abstract
1888
02:20:13.570 --> 02:20:15.750
goal. This is this is a very
1889
02:20:17.090 --> 02:20:17.590
realistic,
1890
02:20:18.426 --> 02:20:22.846
pragmatic thing that if we have people spending Bitcoin on a day to day basis
1891
02:20:23.386 --> 02:20:24.285
using Bitcoin,
1892
02:20:27.140 --> 02:20:31.800
the default should be relatively reasonable in terms of privacy, and they shouldn't they shouldn't
1893
02:20:32.180 --> 02:20:35.399
have to go above and beyond to try and protect themselves.
1894
02:20:37.615 --> 02:20:46.330
You know, 1 we're talking about incentives a lot here. And, I mean, one of the things that that we're really up against is this insidious KYC that's just spreading
1895
02:20:46.870 --> 02:20:50.490
and regulatory compliance and air quotes that's spreading through the industry.
1896
02:20:54.056 --> 02:20:58.395
And no one really wants to talk up against it because it's how they pay their rent.
1897
02:20:58.775 --> 02:21:01.675
You know? It's it's how it's these companies,
1898
02:21:02.311 --> 02:21:05.051
these regulated companies have the most money.
1899
02:21:05.670 --> 02:21:07.370
They're the most profitable businesses,
1900
02:21:09.190 --> 02:21:09.690
and,
1901
02:21:10.065 --> 02:21:11.766
you know, a lot of
1902
02:21:12.546 --> 02:21:18.806
influential Bitcoin people, you know, make make a lot of money off the backs of those companies and their regulatory compliance.
1903
02:21:19.400 --> 02:21:25.740
And the fact that we have these large KYC databases being built up on on whose transaction is which
1904
02:21:27.596 --> 02:21:30.976
pushes back against basically everything we're fighting for.
1905
02:21:32.235 --> 02:21:33.056
And it's
1906
02:21:34.290 --> 02:21:41.670
it's a very dark incentive that people don't really discuss. I I had Belcher and and Waxwing on on the show,
1907
02:21:43.875 --> 02:21:45.735
And I said to them, you know, it's
1908
02:21:46.195 --> 02:21:53.016
it's you know, when we're designing these incentives when you're designing these incentives about people using transactions more privately,
1909
02:21:53.460 --> 02:21:58.840
we're up against the BlockFi's of the world. You know? Michael Saylor posted a tweet that had,
1910
02:22:00.945 --> 02:22:03.686
like, 2,000 retweets or something like that,
1911
02:22:04.705 --> 02:22:05.425
and it was,
1912
02:22:06.305 --> 02:22:09.445
the ideal mobile wallet is a KYC wallet
1913
02:22:10.480 --> 02:22:12.820
that automatically gives you a loan
1914
02:22:13.600 --> 02:22:14.820
in US dollars
1915
02:22:15.200 --> 02:22:16.180
based on
1916
02:22:17.825 --> 02:22:19.765
on on your Bitcoin as collateral,
1917
02:22:22.145 --> 02:22:26.965
and then you spend that instead of of spending Bitcoin directly. Right? And and
1918
02:22:27.480 --> 02:22:27.980
when
1919
02:22:28.440 --> 02:22:30.700
when these incentive models are being designed,
1920
02:22:31.400 --> 02:22:37.455
a user is gonna consider that as an option over whatever the private alternative is. Right? Like, they're going to,
1921
02:22:39.774 --> 02:22:43.075
consider that interest payment that they could get if they
1922
02:22:43.511 --> 02:22:48.330
loaned out their Bitcoin with some centralized regulatory compliant non privacy focused service,
1923
02:22:49.030 --> 02:22:51.525
versus using, private transactions. Right?
1924
02:22:52.006 --> 02:23:02.230
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as I say, that is my biggest cons concern because if that happens too much, then it won't follow too far behind that they'll decide to,
1925
02:23:02.610 --> 02:23:07.115
in air quotes, print their own Bitcoin in the back background. You know? And just
1926
02:23:07.596 --> 02:23:09.215
because, you know you know,
1927
02:23:09.596 --> 02:23:16.320
unless we sort of can withdraw it and they can be left high and high and dry by basically saying that they have,
1928
02:23:17.520 --> 02:23:19.540
you know, more than they actually do,
1929
02:23:19.920 --> 02:23:27.636
then we really don't have too many weapons against against that. So for me, that is a huge risk and, you know, something that,
1930
02:23:28.735 --> 02:23:30.516
I don't think is talked about enough.
1931
02:23:32.096 --> 02:23:35.075
Kito, what's up over there? I haven't heard from you in a minute.
1932
02:23:36.460 --> 02:23:37.200
Not much
1933
02:23:37.660 --> 02:23:38.880
listening to you guys.
1934
02:23:39.979 --> 02:23:41.760
Yeah. I I I guess,
1935
02:23:44.595 --> 02:23:47.095
I I I lost my my stream of fault.
1936
02:23:49.635 --> 02:23:57.641
So I'm curious, before we wrap this up, I'm curious on your your guys' opinions on the fact that mempools are just completely empty right now.
1937
02:23:59.460 --> 02:24:01.881
Is it like, am am I right to be,
1938
02:24:02.855 --> 02:24:03.355
you
1939
02:24:03.815 --> 02:24:07.195
know I I could give you know, maybe maybe
1940
02:24:08.296 --> 02:24:14.250
I will admit that I was, you know, a little bit too excited about the price increase. I always am.
1941
02:24:15.830 --> 02:24:21.675
You know, between me and the freaks, like, the reason I say stay humble all the time is because I'm never humble in bull markets.
1942
02:24:22.535 --> 02:24:27.410
So I'm just constantly trying to remind myself, and I might as well remind the freaks at the same time.
1943
02:24:28.851 --> 02:24:35.190
So maybe I got I definitely got a little bit too far ahead of myself, especially when I was in all caps saying 200 k by conference day.
1944
02:24:36.555 --> 02:24:41.915
You know, that kind of half started as a joke because you just get so much engagement whenever you say it.
1945
02:24:42.395 --> 02:24:44.975
But I kept saying it. So, anyway, I deserve
1946
02:24:45.330 --> 02:24:46.790
to fucking eat crow on that.
1947
02:24:47.410 --> 02:24:47.910
But
1948
02:24:48.450 --> 02:24:50.390
mempools being completely empty
1949
02:24:51.410 --> 02:24:52.230
has completely
1950
02:24:52.610 --> 02:24:55.265
thrown me for a loop. Like, this is not,
1951
02:24:58.365 --> 02:25:10.079
like, I was way fucking wrong about this. I could give 2 shits about the price. I'm a long term investor in Bitcoin. You know? I I I practice what I preach. You know? I don't sell Bitcoin. I fucking
1952
02:25:10.686 --> 02:25:17.105
stay humble, Stack Sats, in that regard. I just constantly I'm just accumulating as much Bitcoin as I can fucking get.
1953
02:25:17.885 --> 02:25:24.449
So when the price goes down, it's, to me, it's it's truly stacker's paradise. It's just more time to accumulate.
1954
02:25:24.909 --> 02:25:30.050
I've I've con I'm just fiat mining. I'm making my fiat salary, and I'm just putting into Bitcoin.
1955
02:25:33.295 --> 02:25:36.354
The the mempool being completely clear right now,
1956
02:25:37.215 --> 02:25:39.795
amid a 50% hash rate reduction,
1957
02:25:42.400 --> 02:25:42.900
is
1958
02:25:45.760 --> 02:25:46.820
just seems
1959
02:25:47.200 --> 02:25:47.700
fucking
1960
02:25:48.535 --> 02:25:50.075
like a bad sign. Am
1961
02:25:51.255 --> 02:25:51.915
I wrong?
1962
02:25:53.335 --> 02:25:59.340
So my point of view, Matt, is is that the mempool is completely driven by price, you know,
1963
02:26:00.120 --> 02:26:01.500
you know, up and down.
1964
02:26:02.120 --> 02:26:07.101
You know, I think if, you know, as you were saying, you know, the number of people in
1965
02:26:07.436 --> 02:26:10.575
coin joins and the like is not really material
1966
02:26:10.955 --> 02:26:12.976
to drive mempool usage.
1967
02:26:13.915 --> 02:26:22.220
In fact, most of the stuff that we talk talk about is not really material to drive. You know, if if if we look at the number of blockchain.comwallets,
1968
02:26:23.080 --> 02:26:24.620
we shouldn't be too surprised
1969
02:26:25.075 --> 02:26:25.575
that
1970
02:26:26.275 --> 02:26:29.975
when the price is not going up or down, when it's kind of just hanging around the same,
1971
02:26:30.595 --> 02:26:33.335
then the mempool just stays empty because,
1972
02:26:34.170 --> 02:26:38.670
people are you know, they've they've kind of those who are gonna sell have obviously sold.
1973
02:26:39.051 --> 02:26:44.415
Those, who were waiting on the sidelines to buy have obviously still still on the side the sidelines.
1974
02:26:45.835 --> 02:26:50.734
And the majority of Bitcoin's usage is driven by people trying to,
1975
02:26:52.040 --> 02:26:52.620
you know,
1976
02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:53.500
basically,
1977
02:26:55.400 --> 02:26:57.580
make or or not lose,
1978
02:26:57.960 --> 02:26:59.580
whatever they have put
1979
02:27:00.484 --> 02:27:02.825
sort of, into it. So, you know,
1980
02:27:03.604 --> 02:27:16.560
it won't stay this way forever, and and the mempool usage will go up again. And maybe it'll clear share again, and perhaps it won't. You know? At some point, it weren't. Right? At some point, the number of users who just kinda use that?
1981
02:27:16.976 --> 02:27:20.275
Yeah. Because, you know, at some point, the number of users who will
1982
02:27:20.815 --> 02:27:22.995
just be using it, like you and I do,
1983
02:27:24.096 --> 02:27:34.990
will get to a point where the block size is just too small. Right? That that day will come. It's obviously not here here today. We obviously don't have the usage in the world today
1984
02:27:35.395 --> 02:27:36.535
for that to be true.
1985
02:27:37.315 --> 02:27:42.695
For now, it's still a slow price driven, you know, thing. And and we shouldn't be too surprised about
1986
02:27:43.190 --> 02:27:47.851
the 50% drop in hash rate because if mempool's pretty much empty,
1987
02:27:48.230 --> 02:27:53.165
it's you know, even if the, you know, the the hash hash rate drops, it's not gonna suddenly
1988
02:27:53.945 --> 02:28:02.141
change that all that much. I mean, you know, we we lose a few minutes perhaps, but it's not really a major effect. So Well, my point is my point is
1989
02:28:03.240 --> 02:28:05.900
in in difficulty adjustment periods where
1990
02:28:06.601 --> 02:28:17.155
hash is it where it's trending down, like, right now, where we're projecting a negative difficulty adjustment after the previous one, which was also significant the biggest negative we've ever had,
1991
02:28:17.615 --> 02:28:28.030
usually, fee pressure is higher in those situations. Right? Because Boston is coming in slower. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think if the mempool was full when this happened, if if we were sitting with the serious
1992
02:28:28.476 --> 02:28:32.895
backlog when this have have happened, I think we would absolutely be feeling the pressure today.
1993
02:28:33.596 --> 02:28:38.100
I think we'd be paying high high fees. But just the fact that it is empty,
1994
02:28:38.560 --> 02:28:42.420
you know, and the price hasn't moved moved much, I think,
1995
02:28:42.960 --> 02:28:46.580
there's no particular reason why it would suddenly fill that I can think of.
1996
02:28:47.426 --> 02:28:51.125
So, Keith, what are your thoughts here? Thank you, Craig. Those are very insightful.
1997
02:28:51.745 --> 02:28:58.620
I think the the manpower pressure is a conspiracy against me. It's always full when I need it to be. I need it to be full. So
1998
02:28:59.979 --> 02:29:05.439
And 4 months ago, I had fucking fee FOMO. I was like, I'm never gonna be able to pay 23 sats per byte again.
1999
02:29:08.635 --> 02:29:12.476
Yeah. No. You know, it's it's pretty weird that it's so empty now, and,
2000
02:29:13.035 --> 02:29:14.255
maybe it's a vacation
2001
02:29:14.635 --> 02:29:15.855
effect. I don't know.
2002
02:29:16.600 --> 02:29:25.100
So so you wanna hear my the bear Bear O'Dell is coming out at 2 hours and 30 minutes into the show because only the rider dies made it this far.
2003
02:29:29.074 --> 02:29:30.935
To me, it's a sign
2004
02:29:32.034 --> 02:29:33.494
well, first of all,
2005
02:29:33.955 --> 02:29:34.455
clearly,
2006
02:29:36.029 --> 02:29:40.449
you know, not enough of the freaks are using CoinJoin. Like, CoinJoin should be a,
2007
02:29:41.229 --> 02:29:45.255
you know, buyer of last resort of of block space. It should just be a constant
2008
02:29:46.115 --> 02:29:47.335
fee pressure thing.
2009
02:29:48.115 --> 02:29:53.175
We we should have so many people using CoinJoin that there's just always a reserve demand
2010
02:29:53.620 --> 02:29:54.520
for block space.
2011
02:29:55.700 --> 02:29:57.720
So that's unfortunate to see.
2012
02:29:58.420 --> 02:30:00.280
And then the second thing is I think
2013
02:30:01.860 --> 02:30:02.680
I think it's,
2014
02:30:03.226 --> 02:30:11.005
you know, there's there's still a shit ton of traders, Craig, that are that are trading these these price movements even when we're in sideways zone.
2015
02:30:12.000 --> 02:30:14.260
So I don't think the traders have left us.
2016
02:30:14.960 --> 02:30:17.220
To me, it's more of a sign
2017
02:30:17.760 --> 02:30:18.260
that
2018
02:30:20.675 --> 02:30:22.854
that that people are using these custodial
2019
02:30:23.954 --> 02:30:30.740
they're using these custodial regulated services rather than actually holding their own keys and using Bitcoin. I mean,
2020
02:30:31.280 --> 02:30:32.180
even if
2021
02:30:32.960 --> 02:30:33.780
you are
2022
02:30:35.040 --> 02:30:35.860
the least
2023
02:30:36.226 --> 02:30:41.766
consumer of Block space as a sovereign Bitcoin user, you're still should be making,
2024
02:30:42.145 --> 02:30:46.830
you know, a withdrawal a week from whatever your regulated custodian is.
2025
02:30:48.330 --> 02:30:54.404
I'm not even saying you put it into CoinJoin, which you should, but, you know, if if you're just making a a transaction
2026
02:30:54.785 --> 02:30:55.285
to
2027
02:30:55.825 --> 02:30:58.484
your cold storage and you're stacking to cold storage,
2028
02:30:59.470 --> 02:31:02.130
you should at least be making 1 transaction a week,
2029
02:31:04.510 --> 02:31:11.735
or or one transaction every 2 weeks. How many people are doing that right now? Like, are there are there more than 5,000 of us?
2030
02:31:12.755 --> 02:31:15.976
Okay. But, Matt, if if people are using custodial wallets
2031
02:31:16.460 --> 02:31:19.439
when they buy and sell, then why did the mempool,
2032
02:31:20.939 --> 02:31:25.120
go up so much when the price was going up? Because, you know,
2033
02:31:25.515 --> 02:31:28.255
in theory, they wouldn't be making on chain, you know,
2034
02:31:31.835 --> 02:31:37.290
transactions at that time if it was all just being done with sort of money behind the scenes?
2035
02:31:38.550 --> 02:31:39.050
So,
2036
02:31:39.990 --> 02:31:43.450
I mean, there's there's 2 theories that I'm working with.
2037
02:31:45.245 --> 02:31:46.545
The first is,
2038
02:31:47.806 --> 02:31:51.426
you know, leverage Bitcoin trading on bucket shops,
2039
02:31:54.431 --> 02:31:57.490
where where you have and we even saw, you know, before,
2040
02:31:58.671 --> 02:31:59.171
BitMex
2041
02:31:59.711 --> 02:32:04.675
cleaned up shop and started adding KYC and and truly blocking Americans.
2042
02:32:05.295 --> 02:32:10.595
Like, we saw hedge funds that were acquiring Bitcoin whether through OTC or some other method,
2043
02:32:11.580 --> 02:32:13.601
and then they were sending it to
2044
02:32:14.460 --> 02:32:18.160
BitMex or or where whatever bucket shop they wanted to use
2045
02:32:19.745 --> 02:32:25.845
to do leverage Bitcoin trading, and they didn't really trust that much funds on there, so they were constantly moving back and forth.
2046
02:32:26.705 --> 02:32:31.870
And then the other thing is is Shitcoin trading. Like, the Shitcoin market has just completely gotten
2047
02:32:32.330 --> 02:32:32.830
destroyed,
2048
02:32:33.690 --> 02:32:35.470
because I guess my thought is
2049
02:32:37.725 --> 02:32:38.784
is, unfortunately,
2050
02:32:40.205 --> 02:32:42.864
if if you're a regulated,
2051
02:32:44.649 --> 02:32:50.670
you know, semi wealthy person in America or one of these developed countries, your main incentive
2052
02:32:51.395 --> 02:32:54.936
to to leave your regulated custodial exchange
2053
02:32:55.636 --> 02:32:57.395
is to go send it to,
2054
02:32:57.875 --> 02:33:01.096
Shitcoin bucket shop and try and buy some shitcoins.
2055
02:33:04.500 --> 02:33:09.080
Well, do do we actually see the same decrease in transactions on other chains?
2056
02:33:11.755 --> 02:33:19.135
I I don't know. I don't follow any of that shit. I I assume there's only, like, one other chain, which is Ethereum, that has any kind of transaction pressure.
2057
02:33:19.670 --> 02:33:28.410
But they just always have, like, shenanigans happening over there, so even who even knows? Like, right now, fees are up because there's some, Uniswap clone that's spamming the chain supposedly.
2058
02:33:32.976 --> 02:33:34.115
Yeah. That that,
2059
02:33:34.575 --> 02:33:36.835
your theory might might be right, mate.
2060
02:33:39.100 --> 02:33:39.840
The beauty
2061
02:33:40.699 --> 02:33:42.800
of Bitcoin is that we just don't know.
2062
02:33:43.899 --> 02:33:44.300
It's
2063
02:33:45.235 --> 02:33:54.615
My worry, Craig my worry, Craig, is that mempools being this like, it's not even just, like, kind of empty. Like, it's literally 1 separate byte just gets you into the next
2064
02:33:56.030 --> 02:34:00.770
gets you into the next block. It's not even, like, kind of empty. It's it's fucking barren,
2065
02:34:01.471 --> 02:34:04.050
and and and my concern is
2066
02:34:05.114 --> 02:34:08.574
that it shows that we're way earlier than we thought we were,
2067
02:34:09.194 --> 02:34:13.135
even I thought we were. And I think I thought we were were earlier than most people think,
2068
02:34:15.060 --> 02:34:16.200
which is fine
2069
02:34:17.779 --> 02:34:22.200
in the grand scheme of things, except that it means we're more vulnerable.
2070
02:34:23.135 --> 02:34:26.755
There's less sovereign Bitcoin holders than people think there are.
2071
02:34:27.295 --> 02:34:28.515
I agree 100%
2072
02:34:28.975 --> 02:34:30.035
with that. 100%.
2073
02:34:31.280 --> 02:34:36.420
That is, as I said, that is my biggest concern. I think if we actually knew how many
2074
02:34:36.880 --> 02:34:37.380
noncustodial
2075
02:34:38.645 --> 02:34:47.386
Bitcoin holders there were, we would be shocked at that figure as being as low as it was. I I I yeah. We have a long way to go.
2076
02:34:47.721 --> 02:34:54.221
And the mempool being this mempools being this fucking empty is is, to me, is, like, tangible proof of that.
2077
02:34:55.405 --> 02:34:59.984
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, look. You know, I'm I'm quite sure that if you got every
2078
02:35:00.285 --> 02:35:04.511
wallet dev in a room and asked them if they had, you know, 100 of thousands
2079
02:35:05.370 --> 02:35:13.985
of users, they're just saying say no. You know, it's not it really isn't the the sort of sort of case. I mean, the fact that we still can't outdo
2080
02:35:14.926 --> 02:35:15.426
shittyblockchain.com,
2081
02:35:17.005 --> 02:35:17.985
I mean, really,
2082
02:35:18.365 --> 02:35:21.105
it just shows we have a long way to way to go.
2083
02:35:22.489 --> 02:35:24.750
And, you know, that's that's kind of okay.
2084
02:35:25.290 --> 02:35:28.350
I'm not too concerned if you look at the growth of the Internet.
2085
02:35:29.369 --> 02:35:30.350
It did take
2086
02:35:30.835 --> 02:35:36.135
decades. You know, it feels like it happened very, very fast, but, I mean, it did take quite a bit of time.
2087
02:35:37.715 --> 02:35:40.295
It gets to a certain point where
2088
02:35:40.740 --> 02:35:45.960
it becomes a need to know rather than a sort of a nice nice to know,
2089
02:35:46.980 --> 02:35:50.005
skill set. We're not there today. We're definitely not.
2090
02:35:51.365 --> 02:35:59.385
So when that happens, I I can't say, but, hopefully, you know, in the next 2 to 3 years. And then I think we'll see a bit of a step change
2091
02:35:59.830 --> 02:36:01.290
As we kind of saw
2092
02:36:01.910 --> 02:36:04.330
around the year, you know, 2,001
2093
02:36:04.870 --> 02:36:06.170
to 2,005
2094
02:36:06.550 --> 02:36:11.364
or 6, you know, we really saw a big change in the number of people who understood
2095
02:36:11.665 --> 02:36:18.710
how to email, how to browse browse the web, how to kind of, you know, just get their shit done online. And
2096
02:36:19.409 --> 02:36:23.350
Bitcoin is definitely pre that. It's not in that space yet.
2097
02:36:23.766 --> 02:36:24.266
So,
2098
02:36:24.886 --> 02:36:33.510
you know, we need to go through, you know, the sort of bill cycle that we're in now and maybe one one more in order to get to that sort of point.
2099
02:36:34.310 --> 02:36:35.689
So, yeah, we're early.
2100
02:36:39.270 --> 02:36:40.729
Tito, am I being too bearish?
2101
02:36:45.205 --> 02:36:45.865
Just enough.
2102
02:36:46.645 --> 02:36:51.290
Yeah. I I agree 100% with with that. We I I think we are, like,
2103
02:36:51.930 --> 02:36:53.870
late seventies, early eighties,
2104
02:36:54.410 --> 02:36:55.870
in computing now.
2105
02:36:58.170 --> 02:36:59.710
Still still the the
2106
02:37:00.055 --> 02:37:02.234
period where people are building cases
2107
02:37:03.175 --> 02:37:04.635
out of wood in a garage.
2108
02:37:07.255 --> 02:37:08.470
And Keter would know.
2109
02:37:09.029 --> 02:37:11.689
And, yeah, we we we are definitely
2110
02:37:12.310 --> 02:37:12.810
overestimating
2111
02:37:13.189 --> 02:37:14.330
some numbers. Like,
2112
02:37:15.350 --> 02:37:16.475
even things like
2113
02:37:17.034 --> 02:37:17.614
how many,
2114
02:37:18.875 --> 02:37:21.055
toll nodes are around on the Internet.
2115
02:37:21.675 --> 02:37:23.055
Actually, I I learned
2116
02:37:23.835 --> 02:37:26.590
the real number quite recently, and it's scaring
2117
02:37:27.050 --> 02:37:28.350
me. What's the real number?
2118
02:37:29.050 --> 02:37:30.029
Less than 10,000.
2119
02:37:30.810 --> 02:37:33.310
Yeah. I would say less than okay. So less than 10,000
2120
02:37:34.306 --> 02:37:35.365
sovereign Bitcoin
2121
02:37:35.905 --> 02:37:37.125
node users. Right?
2122
02:37:38.065 --> 02:37:39.285
Well, no. It's,
2123
02:37:39.745 --> 02:37:42.325
it doesn't include the the user
2124
02:37:43.550 --> 02:37:44.850
troubles. It just,
2125
02:37:45.310 --> 02:37:47.409
counts the relays and exit nodes.
2126
02:37:47.869 --> 02:37:49.489
But, still, it's it's crazy
2127
02:37:49.949 --> 02:37:51.409
it's crazy small, actually.
2128
02:37:51.885 --> 02:37:52.385
And,
2129
02:37:52.845 --> 02:37:58.864
maybe the numbers we see for Bitcoin nodes and for Lightning nodes are actually accurate, and there isn't that many hiding.
2130
02:38:00.931 --> 02:38:04.210
So so first of all, we have winsome hacks in,
2131
02:38:05.330 --> 02:38:06.210
a good good,
2132
02:38:06.745 --> 02:38:16.445
good username in, on Twitch coming into the live chat saying that I've flipped bearish. I've not flipped bearish. I am more bullish than 99% of people on this fucking planet.
2133
02:38:16.971 --> 02:38:24.351
Okay? But it's important to be realistic in terms of sovereign Bitcoin users, and that's that's different than price, by the way.
2134
02:38:25.450 --> 02:38:28.975
I think it's it's detached from price to a degree
2135
02:38:29.354 --> 02:38:32.335
because we do have a lot of people who buy Bitcoin,
2136
02:38:32.795 --> 02:38:35.710
and they do increase the price as long as there's not rehypothecation,
2137
02:38:36.250 --> 02:38:39.630
which was we're early still on. I don't think there is really.
2138
02:38:40.490 --> 02:38:45.675
So when Michael Sailor, for instance, goes, and I know he's a very controversial figure, goes and buys a bunch of Bitcoin
2139
02:38:46.056 --> 02:38:49.755
and then sends it from his custodial broker to his custodial wallet,
2140
02:38:50.455 --> 02:38:52.715
that does increase buy pressure.
2141
02:38:53.061 --> 02:38:54.920
So I think most people are underestimating
2142
02:38:55.221 --> 02:38:56.040
price still.
2143
02:38:58.020 --> 02:39:04.555
And I I I I stand by the fact that I think people will be extremely surprised to the upside in terms in terms of price.
2144
02:39:05.835 --> 02:39:07.135
I think people are
2145
02:39:07.515 --> 02:39:11.455
greatly overestimating the number of sovereign Bitcoin users. So
2146
02:39:11.760 --> 02:39:15.699
let's let's just go for through some estimates. I'm just curious before we
2147
02:39:16.159 --> 02:39:17.140
wrap this up.
2148
02:39:19.604 --> 02:39:21.785
So how many how many people
2149
02:39:22.245 --> 02:39:27.545
got look. Once again, there's no way for us to easily calculate these numbers,
2150
02:39:28.329 --> 02:39:34.029
which is why proof of work is so important. Like, the reason we have distributed proof of work is because you have this verifiable,
2151
02:39:35.770 --> 02:39:39.055
real work that anyone can verify and know it exists.
2152
02:39:40.875 --> 02:39:46.495
But when it comes to user numbers and everything and and node numbers, there's no way to prove one node, one user.
2153
02:39:47.660 --> 02:39:49.360
And there's no way to definitively
2154
02:39:49.740 --> 02:39:50.240
prove
2155
02:39:50.700 --> 02:39:53.200
how many individual users are out there.
2156
02:39:55.605 --> 02:40:02.025
Maybe it's a little bit easier because people have such horrible privacy right now, but you're still making a guess. You're making educated guess. And, ideally,
2157
02:40:02.721 --> 02:40:11.695
where I want us to be in 5 years is I I don't want Glassnode to have a business model. Like, I want them to look at the chain and just have no fucking idea what the fuck is going on.
2158
02:40:13.615 --> 02:40:15.315
But where we stand right now,
2159
02:40:16.016 --> 02:40:21.075
how many how many individuals around the world do we think are holding their own keys?
2160
02:40:24.880 --> 02:40:26.020
We'll start with Craig.
2161
02:40:27.520 --> 02:40:29.939
I was hoping you were not gonna start with me.
2162
02:40:33.445 --> 02:40:33.945
Sure.
2163
02:40:35.445 --> 02:40:37.705
Probably less than a 100,000 maths.
2164
02:40:39.880 --> 02:40:48.859
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll cosign that. What do you do you think, Keeda, do you think that's you're you under on less than a 1000000? My my number was 100 about 100,000.
2165
02:40:49.985 --> 02:40:55.685
Okay. So so all these numbers when people say, like, there's, like, 30,000,000 Bitcoin users or whatever,
2166
02:40:57.800 --> 02:40:59.420
They're just completely off base.
2167
02:41:01.880 --> 02:41:02.380
Yeah.
2168
02:41:02.760 --> 02:41:08.975
Or maybe they're they're they're including, like, Robinhood users or whatever, like, self full custodial people. Right?
2169
02:41:09.436 --> 02:41:25.926
But I mean, Matt, who owned a personal computer in the mid eighties? I mean Okay. That's that's fine. That's I'm not saying that this means Bitcoin's dead. I just want some, you know, realism here in the discussion. Right? No. No. Sure. I I agree. But, you know, I I think an important,
2170
02:41:26.306 --> 02:41:34.110
you know, kind of point on the plus side is that, you know, if if if you were around at that time and you were sort of part of that
2171
02:41:36.410 --> 02:41:36.910
kind
2172
02:41:37.610 --> 02:41:38.270
of journey,
2173
02:41:39.210 --> 02:41:40.091
of being into
2174
02:41:40.765 --> 02:41:43.585
you know, whether you owned a Commodore 64 or,
2175
02:41:44.045 --> 02:41:50.181
some some some Sinclair or you know, that that kind of world was the most
2176
02:41:50.960 --> 02:41:53.940
creative time in computing that I've ever known.
2177
02:41:54.400 --> 02:41:56.341
It was really amazing, and
2178
02:41:56.881 --> 02:41:59.301
it's it's just fucking cool to be
2179
02:41:59.984 --> 02:42:04.325
to be, you know, part of this at that time. You know? I I have no doubt
2180
02:42:04.785 --> 02:42:05.285
that
2181
02:42:05.665 --> 02:42:09.431
Bitcoin is gonna go the same route of just, you know, becoming
2182
02:42:10.610 --> 02:42:11.110
a
2183
02:42:12.290 --> 02:42:14.230
default and de facto part of our lives,
2184
02:42:14.610 --> 02:42:29.939
that being able to build on it and make changes to it as we are doing. Because believe me, in, you know, 10 to 20 years' time, you're gonna be tinkering on the very edges. You're not gonna be working on on the kind of core stuff as we are today.
2185
02:42:31.280 --> 02:42:33.060
You know, that's a great
2186
02:42:33.975 --> 02:42:37.675
time to just be in it. No. Look. A 100% correct. Look. Yeah.
2187
02:42:38.055 --> 02:42:42.715
Look. All of us all of us here, whether it's the 3 of us, me, you, and Kito,
2188
02:42:43.070 --> 02:42:50.450
or whether it's the rider die freaks that are in the live chat, or whether it's the rider die freaks that are listening to this as soon as it gets uploaded and you're streaming stats,
2189
02:42:50.805 --> 02:43:04.109
Like, we're all in. We're all in, and, you know, there's no place I'd rather be. I have no regrets whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one of the luckiest men in the world. You know. I'm super grateful to be here. It's fucking awesome. That being said,
2190
02:43:04.810 --> 02:43:08.235
I share this podium with less than a 100 k people that are holding their own keys.
2191
02:43:09.995 --> 02:43:11.855
So okay. So we have that for keys.
2192
02:43:13.115 --> 02:43:16.016
How many how many users are using their own node?
2193
02:43:17.115 --> 02:43:17.615
Individuals.
2194
02:43:20.700 --> 02:43:23.520
I go first. Yeah. You go first this time.
2195
02:43:25.020 --> 02:43:26.640
I would say between
2196
02:43:27.806 --> 02:43:28.945
25 k.
2197
02:43:30.445 --> 02:43:31.105
Oof. Okay.
2198
02:43:31.645 --> 02:43:35.025
Yeah. I think that's a part of your part about right. Yeah.
2199
02:43:35.591 --> 02:43:38.011
Yeah. Okay. So I I agree as well.
2200
02:43:39.190 --> 02:43:44.011
I I like that we have consensus here. Yeah. I I was gonna say 5 k. I was gonna say less than 5 k.
2201
02:43:46.045 --> 02:43:51.745
Okay. So we have that for using nodes using their own node. So we have a 100000 people holding their own keys,
2202
02:43:52.210 --> 02:43:56.229
then we have about 5,000 people less than 5,000 people
2203
02:43:56.770 --> 02:43:57.989
using their own node.
2204
02:43:59.865 --> 02:44:03.805
How many are holding their own keys, using their own node, and using Lightning?
2205
02:44:08.960 --> 02:44:10.420
Probably about the same.
2206
02:44:12.320 --> 02:44:13.301
Yeah. Well,
2207
02:44:13.605 --> 02:44:16.266
perhaps half of that, you know, I would guess.
2208
02:44:17.205 --> 02:44:20.266
Yeah. I think there's a decent amount of people that are using their own node.
2209
02:44:20.860 --> 02:44:22.320
I mean, look, even we had
2210
02:44:23.580 --> 02:44:29.965
we had that, like, OG who fucking lost a 1,000 Bitcoin in the Electrum phishing scam, and he wasn't using his own node.
2211
02:44:30.604 --> 02:44:32.945
Guy had a 1,000 Bitcoin and it was in a hot wallet
2212
02:44:33.484 --> 02:44:34.145
on Electrum.
2213
02:44:34.845 --> 02:44:35.345
Yeah.
2214
02:44:37.250 --> 02:44:43.029
Okay. So, I mean, yeah, I would say I would say less than 5 I would say significantly less than 5,000. I would say, like, 25100,
2215
02:44:43.410 --> 02:44:48.455
3000 people are using their own node in Lightning. Now Lightning does have the benefit that there's probably
2216
02:44:49.075 --> 02:44:56.319
a substantial amount of retail using Lightning without their own node, whether they're using, like, a Moon Wallet and with 2 u's,
2217
02:44:57.659 --> 02:45:04.085
or if they're using a a a completely custodial option like a BlueWallet or a Wallet of Satoshi, there's probably or like Strike.
2218
02:45:04.545 --> 02:45:08.085
There's probably a significant amount that are using lightning without their own node.
2219
02:45:08.980 --> 02:45:13.000
But even that is probably less than 15 k or 20 k. Right?
2220
02:45:18.234 --> 02:45:20.095
I'm gonna take your silence as agreement.
2221
02:45:20.555 --> 02:45:21.055
Yeah.
2222
02:45:22.395 --> 02:45:25.630
Okay. So we have a 100,000 less than a 100,000
2223
02:45:26.649 --> 02:45:28.029
are holding their own keys.
2224
02:45:28.330 --> 02:45:30.989
We have less than 5,000 are using their own node.
2225
02:45:32.085 --> 02:45:32.745
We have,
2226
02:45:33.765 --> 02:45:36.505
less than 3,000 using their own node and lightning.
2227
02:45:38.870 --> 02:45:40.729
How many do we think are using CoinJoin?
2228
02:45:44.070 --> 02:45:44.570
42.
2229
02:45:45.670 --> 02:45:46.170
42?
2230
02:45:50.306 --> 02:45:52.165
Less than 2,000. Right?
2231
02:45:54.065 --> 02:45:54.565
Yeah.
2232
02:45:54.945 --> 02:45:55.686
For sure.
2233
02:45:57.040 --> 02:46:01.940
Right. So so the listenership of this show is a little bit over 20,000.
2234
02:46:03.655 --> 02:46:04.155
So
2235
02:46:04.694 --> 02:46:05.194
so,
2236
02:46:07.415 --> 02:46:20.020
you know, dispatch is, you know, 6 months old, but we've we've basically inherited the majority of of Tales from the clip listeners. But let's say rabbit hole recaps have been going on for 3 years. We got over 20,000 listeners per episode,
2237
02:46:21.814 --> 02:46:23.675
and I have not shut up about CoinJoin.
2238
02:46:24.375 --> 02:46:26.875
And we have 10% of them are using CoinJoin
2239
02:46:28.490 --> 02:46:30.750
or less than 10% of them are using coin join.
2240
02:46:32.011 --> 02:46:40.655
It's still pretty pretty hard, Matt. I mean, it's it's it's not the easiest thing. Right? You have to have you you don't have to run your own node to to use CoinJoin.
2241
02:46:43.596 --> 02:46:44.096
Right.
2242
02:46:44.760 --> 02:46:47.879
But I think the majority of people that are using CoinJoin
2243
02:46:48.359 --> 02:46:53.579
oh, except for maybe Wasabi. The, the overwhelming majority of Wasabi users are
2244
02:46:54.375 --> 02:46:56.556
are light users or SPV users.
2245
02:47:00.056 --> 02:47:03.195
Yeah. That and and some more users as well. I think
2246
02:47:03.641 --> 02:47:05.340
way more some more users
2247
02:47:05.721 --> 02:47:08.700
using their servers than running their own node.
2248
02:47:10.815 --> 02:47:11.555
That's interesting.
2249
02:47:12.655 --> 02:47:16.115
I guess I guess from from pure user numbers, yes,
2250
02:47:17.455 --> 02:47:22.790
rather than volume of Bitcoin. I would say volume of Bitcoin, the majority are probably using their own node.
2251
02:47:23.970 --> 02:47:32.734
Because if you're gonna have any kind of substantial amount of Bitcoin in there, I I my guess is is the majority of coinjoin volume across the base
2252
02:47:33.595 --> 02:47:34.734
across all implementations
2253
02:47:35.835 --> 02:47:36.574
is, like,
2254
02:47:37.570 --> 02:47:39.190
you know, a 1000 hardos
2255
02:47:39.730 --> 02:47:42.950
that that that have the majority of of the volume,
2256
02:47:43.971 --> 02:47:46.070
like, when you measured in Bitcoin terms.
2257
02:47:46.465 --> 02:47:47.765
Would you agree on that?
2258
02:47:49.824 --> 02:47:52.404
Sounds about about right. Yeah. Yeah.
2259
02:47:54.189 --> 02:48:02.200
So I guess my point is not to, like, completely deflate the room. My point was, you know, that, you know, we have a we have a long road ahead of us, and,
2260
02:48:03.335 --> 02:48:10.555
anyone who thinks, like, the fight is over is completely off base. Like, this is this is the start of a of a long war.
2261
02:48:12.780 --> 02:48:20.641
Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess you could see it see it as a as a as a war. I just see it see it as a curve. Right? Every single time there's a price in in
2262
02:48:20.976 --> 02:48:26.355
increase, the number of users go up. Some of those users, obviously, quite a small number,
2263
02:48:27.056 --> 02:48:27.875
on a percentage
2264
02:48:28.230 --> 02:48:32.010
base base basis just inflates every one of those figures. Right?
2265
02:48:32.710 --> 02:48:37.050
And so it will go go on. But what I'm sort of hoping is that,
2266
02:48:37.436 --> 02:48:42.255
as I say, once people realize that actually your privacy is is in some ways worse
2267
02:48:42.795 --> 02:48:43.855
when you receive
2268
02:48:44.510 --> 02:48:49.729
your sal sal salary to salary in Bitcoin, and then you go and spend that UTXO.
2269
02:48:51.069 --> 02:48:53.985
They'll start to kind of realize that these tools
2270
02:48:54.466 --> 02:49:11.370
are much more important than what they had thought, or they probably wouldn't have even thought thought of thought of them. So, you know, I think it's it's also a question of just getting that education out out there, which you're doing that. You know, it it just takes takes time. You know, the world does not change fast.
2271
02:49:12.245 --> 02:49:15.625
So we're 2 hours and 50 minutes in.
2272
02:49:17.205 --> 02:49:18.024
This is where
2273
02:49:18.645 --> 02:49:20.425
the real Bear Adele comes out.
2274
02:49:21.870 --> 02:49:22.370
So
2275
02:49:23.390 --> 02:49:26.689
once again, not by price. This is just on individual freedoms.
2276
02:49:27.790 --> 02:49:30.875
And I think the Bitcoin network can survive even if individuals
2277
02:49:32.055 --> 02:49:33.274
are completely fucked.
2278
02:49:33.814 --> 02:49:35.994
The majority of individuals are completely fucked.
2279
02:49:36.295 --> 02:49:36.614
But,
2280
02:49:37.960 --> 02:49:40.061
what I expect to happen is
2281
02:49:40.681 --> 02:49:56.729
is yeah. So the best thing we have going for us, I agree, Craig, is that as adoption increases and the circular economy increases, people are going to spend Bitcoin more often because they're gonna be earning Bitcoin. And if if we're right and their fiat is completely worthless, especially in,
2282
02:49:57.590 --> 02:50:02.245
you know, weaker economies, But I I think even in America and the and the EU,
2283
02:50:03.266 --> 02:50:10.960
we're gonna see those currencies become worse and worse store values as as the years go by. It seems to be amplifying really quickly.
2284
02:50:11.820 --> 02:50:15.601
People are going to be paid in Bitcoin, and they're gonna wanna hold Bitcoin.
2285
02:50:16.645 --> 02:50:19.625
This is part of our thesis. Most of our thesis, I think,
2286
02:50:20.245 --> 02:50:24.665
is that we expect Bitcoin to be the money that people wanna hold and people wanna spend.
2287
02:50:25.270 --> 02:50:31.930
Or or the people that the money that people wanna hold and because they were holding it and the majority of their wealth is in it and they're earning it, they wanna spend it. Right?
2288
02:50:34.355 --> 02:50:41.096
And when they come time to spend it, and they realize that they're losing all this privacy that that, you know, they go and buy
2289
02:50:41.870 --> 02:50:47.810
buy a sandwich or a car or some shit, and the person they pay knows, you know, how much they make,
2290
02:50:48.110 --> 02:50:50.850
or their boss knows what they bought this weekend,
2291
02:50:51.785 --> 02:50:57.165
they're going to go and try and seek out better privacy. Right? Like, that's the best argument, I think.
2292
02:50:57.625 --> 02:51:04.570
The the the the number one incentive we have going for us is that as users get burned, they will seek out better alternatives,
2293
02:51:05.351 --> 02:51:06.650
to improve their situation.
2294
02:51:07.105 --> 02:51:10.245
Now my concern, at least in the short to medium term,
2295
02:51:10.705 --> 02:51:14.885
is what's gonna happen is users are gonna realize that because they're not idiots,
2296
02:51:15.950 --> 02:51:17.410
and they're gonna go to,
2297
02:51:18.351 --> 02:51:23.490
like, custodial privacy solutions. So the perfect example I have of that is
2298
02:51:23.975 --> 02:51:25.595
I've had people pay me.
2299
02:51:26.534 --> 02:51:30.555
Some people are, you know, relatively well known in the Bitcoin space,
2300
02:51:32.520 --> 02:51:37.180
and they know where my tilt is in terms of Bitcoin, and they know I'm going to
2301
02:51:38.200 --> 02:51:40.625
look at their transaction when they send it to me.
2302
02:51:41.025 --> 02:51:44.725
And so what they do is they send from Stripe or from Cash App
2303
02:51:45.425 --> 02:51:54.680
because I can't tell anything about their transaction from it. I know they sent it from Cash App. It's very obvious. There's 98 inputs coming to, like, all different types of addresses.
2304
02:51:56.340 --> 02:52:01.275
Obviously, they didn't construct a transaction with 98 fucking inputs going to different directions.
2305
02:52:02.295 --> 02:52:06.235
Or, like, it's, like, 6 inputs with, like, 98 outputs is what I meant to say.
2306
02:52:07.801 --> 02:52:16.141
But it gives them privacy from everyone except Cash App or whoever Cash App is giving that information to or if it leaks or whatnot. Right?
2307
02:52:17.015 --> 02:52:20.875
So I think we're gonna be up against we're gonna be competing with, like, these
2308
02:52:22.215 --> 02:52:25.274
there's gonna be a lot of people that say, like, that's good enough privacy.
2309
02:52:25.770 --> 02:52:28.351
It's like, do you just get the privacy from, like, a regulated
2310
02:52:29.610 --> 02:52:32.030
company that gives you the custodial privacy?
2311
02:52:35.345 --> 02:52:46.069
Yeah. You know, a few years years ago, I really thought that the privacy battle was just lost, you know, just completely lost. But I you know, you are seeing people care about it more these days.
2312
02:52:46.850 --> 02:52:54.385
You know, I don't know what the future future holds, but I I'd I'd like to think that that trend becomes more, that people start to chem chem or,
2313
02:52:55.005 --> 02:52:58.385
maybe that is overly optimistic. I'm willing to accept
2314
02:52:58.780 --> 02:53:01.200
that it might might might be, but, you know,
2315
02:53:01.660 --> 02:53:03.200
it's very hard to take
2316
02:53:03.660 --> 02:53:17.939
what we currently perceive to be how much people care and then put that forward into the fit pitch picture and then say, well, how much they care today will continue to be how much they they care, you know. We we just don't know. They might actually care less,
2317
02:53:18.720 --> 02:53:19.220
but
2318
02:53:19.840 --> 02:53:22.659
it probably won't stay the same, you know. Right.
2319
02:53:23.235 --> 02:53:24.535
So Yeah.
2320
02:53:24.915 --> 02:53:30.936
Yeah. So, you know, I I think that, you know, there there is some some hope that the trend at least has been
2321
02:53:31.315 --> 02:53:32.375
away from,
2322
02:53:32.860 --> 02:53:37.200
you know, just give all of my private information to large
2323
02:53:37.580 --> 02:53:44.485
company x, and it'll be fine. You know? I I I think that there's been a trend away from that. It's for sure,
2324
02:53:44.865 --> 02:53:45.445
it's not
2325
02:53:46.065 --> 02:53:47.686
changed the world yet, but,
2326
02:53:48.699 --> 02:53:50.640
it does give me some some hope,
2327
02:53:51.260 --> 02:53:54.399
that in future, people may care care more.
2328
02:53:56.335 --> 02:53:59.155
No. I I guess, Snowden helped a lot with that.
2329
02:53:59.615 --> 02:54:04.755
Every no one remembers it. There's only, like, 10 of us. But if you wanna do the numbers again, there's, like,
2330
02:54:05.520 --> 02:54:07.460
there's, like, 2,000 people that remember.
2331
02:54:08.160 --> 02:54:11.381
I I think I think the the bullish case is that
2332
02:54:14.266 --> 02:54:18.686
is that I think people will go to the custodial privacy options, and then they're gonna get censored
2333
02:54:19.306 --> 02:54:22.605
because that's what always happens. Right? You're just gonna have
2334
02:54:24.740 --> 02:54:35.195
you're just gonna have, like, the PayPal effect or whatever. Like like, people are gonna have their accounts closed. They're gonna have their money taken. They're gonna have transactions blocked. They're gonna have information leaked about them. There's gonna be massive hacks,
2335
02:54:35.655 --> 02:54:39.115
more and more hacks where where user information is taken and leaked,
2336
02:54:40.060 --> 02:54:44.560
and people will learn that they have to take their sovereignty back. But I think there's gonna be a middle ground period,
2337
02:54:45.980 --> 02:54:49.455
where users acknowledge that they have privacy concerns, but instead
2338
02:54:50.075 --> 02:54:58.950
of seeking the sovereign option, which is always gonna be more difficult, they're gonna go for that centralized custodial option, and we're just gonna have to get through that, like, turbulent period.
2339
02:54:59.570 --> 02:55:05.830
Yeah. I think that that's that's right, Matt. Because, you know, just to take an example from where I live, currently,
2340
02:55:06.475 --> 02:55:12.574
you know, South Africa has this stupid law, which is decades old, which basically says you can't export,
2341
02:55:13.114 --> 02:55:18.670
any of our local currency overseas. You know, they see that as sort of it's it's, I guess,
2342
02:55:19.130 --> 02:55:22.670
not dissimilar to the way China kind of views things.
2343
02:55:23.865 --> 02:55:29.405
So what the Reserve Bank here is trying to do is to say, well, you can't if you buy,
2344
02:55:30.105 --> 02:55:38.229
Bitcoin on a local exchange here. You can't send it to an international exchange and sell it sell it there because that obviously
2345
02:55:38.610 --> 02:56:04.064
goes against this law. Now, obviously, we know that you can withdraw it to your wallet here. You can send it through CoinJoin, and there's not really much that anyone can tell after that that that point. So there's a real incentive there to, you know, to take your money into your own hands versus keeping it in some kind of an online place where all of these rules are are sort of, you know, there. And I think that those rules are gonna get worse, you know, as
2346
02:56:04.444 --> 02:56:06.705
the value of Fiat drops over time,
2347
02:56:07.230 --> 02:56:13.330
so governments will try whatever adding whatever regulations they can to try and protect it and
2348
02:56:13.710 --> 02:56:15.811
trying to protect the flight of capital
2349
02:56:16.245 --> 02:56:19.465
as they perceive it dropping against some other place
2350
02:56:20.005 --> 02:56:24.905
is one of the key things that they'll they'll they'll do. And and the obvious out is to take
2351
02:56:25.320 --> 02:56:26.860
custody of your own funds.
2352
02:56:27.240 --> 02:56:27.900
So, hopefully,
2353
02:56:29.000 --> 02:56:38.024
they do do that because I think that that's going to be a way that people start to realize the value of taking, you know, taking it into your own hands.
2354
02:56:42.900 --> 02:56:44.979
Yeah. No. I agree. I just think it's gonna be,
2355
02:56:46.020 --> 02:56:53.176
it's just gonna be longer than most people realize, but I think that, both you and Kito agree with me on that. I'm just reiterating it. Yeah.
2356
02:56:54.915 --> 02:57:00.880
Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I know I said we're gonna keep it under 2 hours privately, but, here we are.
2357
02:57:01.899 --> 02:57:11.665
I appreciate you guys' time. I appreciate all the work you've put into your respective projects and what you've helped. You know, you've helped so many sovereign Bitcoiners. I I'm super grateful for both of you guys.
2358
02:57:12.605 --> 02:57:13.985
And all of our 10 users.
2359
02:57:14.490 --> 02:57:15.311
Yeah. All of
2360
02:57:15.930 --> 02:57:18.430
our all all of your 500 users.
2361
02:57:20.090 --> 02:57:20.490
I,
2362
02:57:21.210 --> 02:57:26.245
I think this is a really insightful conversation. I think the freaks really appreciate it. I hope I hope they did.
2363
02:57:28.386 --> 02:57:31.766
Do you guys have any final thoughts before we wrap this baby up?
2364
02:57:37.340 --> 02:57:49.975
No, Matt. It's been it's been great to chat. I I hope you kind of figured out halfway along that part of this was me asking you things and getting the information out of your brain, which has been great. So thank you.
2365
02:57:51.610 --> 02:57:57.710
Yeah. Thanks, Matt. As usual, it was very interesting. And and thanks, Craig. It was it was very nice talking with you.
2366
02:57:58.090 --> 02:57:59.150
Yeah. You too.
2367
02:57:59.645 --> 02:58:07.105
I appreciate you both. I appreciate all the ride or dies who joined us instead of, Euro 2020 today in the live chat.
2368
02:58:07.710 --> 02:58:12.290
I appreciate all the freaks who continue to support the show through the podcasting 2 point o apps.
2369
02:58:12.989 --> 02:58:14.369
A reminder that is
2370
02:58:14.745 --> 02:58:16.125
new podcast apps.com.
2371
02:58:16.585 --> 02:58:22.285
My favorite is Breeze. You just open it up. You search Siddle Dispatch, and you could stream stats directly to the show.
2372
02:58:22.920 --> 02:58:24.780
You can also donate via sidledispatch.com.
2373
02:58:26.841 --> 02:58:29.820
We also have 2 new items on the merch store,
2374
02:58:30.186 --> 02:58:31.085
citadel dispatch.com/stack,
2375
02:58:32.266 --> 02:58:40.561
brought to you by Ride or Die Freaks that are setting those up for us. We have BTC Pins is providing a SIDL dispatch magnet.
2376
02:58:41.341 --> 02:58:46.160
30% of that goes to me, 30% goes to him, and 30% goes to Open Sats
2377
02:58:48.115 --> 02:58:55.095
for supporting Bitcoin development. And then we have, a rider die free, Quinn Solo, who is doing sale dispatch flasks.
2378
02:58:55.881 --> 02:59:02.221
Same deal. A third goes to me, a third goes to him, and a third goes to open source development via OpenSats.
2379
02:59:02.955 --> 02:59:07.455
We still have the hats available. A lot of you freaks have reached out for the hats. I appreciate all the support
2380
02:59:07.915 --> 02:59:10.655
there. Once again, the reminder is that still dispatch.com/stack.
2381
02:59:13.880 --> 02:59:16.140
I'm really excited. I don't have
2382
02:59:16.680 --> 02:59:23.854
next week's guests lined up yet, but the week after that, July 20th, is gonna be Diverter and e Econo Alchemist,
2383
02:59:24.635 --> 02:59:26.814
are gonna both be rejoining the show,
2384
02:59:27.320 --> 02:59:34.140
for a special home mining episode. I think all the freaks should be trying to seek out, ASICs right now. I think it's, they're very cheap,
2385
02:59:34.976 --> 02:59:38.595
and it's a really good way to stack KYC free while supporting the network.
2386
02:59:39.775 --> 02:59:41.235
So stay tuned for that.
2387
02:59:41.920 --> 02:59:47.620
And I appreciate you all. I thank you so much, Kito, and thank you so much, Craig. I look forward to having you guys on the show again soon.
2388
02:59:49.256 --> 02:59:50.716
Awesome. Thanks, Matt.
2389
02:59:51.096 --> 02:59:51.995
Thanks, Matt.
2390
02:59:58.750 --> 03:00:01.330
Reluctantly crouched at the starting line,
2391
03:00:01.790 --> 03:00:12.240
engines pumping and thumping in time. The green light flashes, the flags go up, churning and burning. They yearn for the cup. They definitely maneuver and muscle for rank.
2392
03:00:12.721 --> 03:00:42.056
Fuel burning fast on an empty tank. Reckless and wild, they pour through the turns. Their prowess is potent and secretly stern. Stern. As they speed through the finish, the flags go down. The fans get up and they get out of town. The arena is empty, except for one man still driving and striving as fast as he can. The sun has gone down and the moon has come up. And long ago, somebody left with the cup. But he's driving and striving, and hugging the turns, and thinking of someone for whom he still burns.
2393
03:00:43.315 --> 03:00:44.775
He's going the distance.
2394
03:00:45.715 --> 03:00:46.540
He's going
2395
03:01:15.445 --> 03:01:20.585
No trophy, no flowers, no flashbulbs, no line. He's haunted by something he cannot define.
2396
03:01:21.000 --> 03:01:44.945
Bowel shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse. Assail him, impale him with monster truck force. In his mind, he's still driving, still making the grade. She's hoping in time that her memories will fade because he's racing and pacing and hardening the course. He's fighting and fighting and riding on his horse. The sun has gone down and the moon has come up. And long ago, somebody left with the cup, but he's striving and driving and hugging the turns and thanking
2397
03:03:02.510 --> 03:03:11.380
Love you, freaks. Use your own node. Use coin join. Open some lightning channels. Stay on both stack sets. I'll see you on Thursday for a rapid recap. Cheers.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:11:06 PM
Duration: 10994.024
Channels: 1
1
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2
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of equity strategists and portfolio managers, 44%
3
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say it will be below
4
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30,000
5
00:00:09.675 --> 00:00:13.135
and just about flat for the year. Others are more optimistic. 25%
6
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seeing it nearly $40,000,
7
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and an equal amount predicting $50,000.
8
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Now Bitcoin reached a high of nearly $65,000
9
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back in April. And right now, you can take a look at Bitcoin. It's trading under $33,000
10
00:00:28.234 --> 00:00:29.134
at about $32981.
11
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What do you think, Bec? Are you if you were part of that survey, what would you what would you predict? Oh, I have no idea. I mean, it's pretty volatile. Could go any direction.
12
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13
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I don't know. I
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I wouldn't bet on this. How about you?
15
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16
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I will, and maybe I'll be a cynic here. I will take the under, but if you said 10 years from now, I would take the over. Okay. Then I'll take the over just to play the other side.
17
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What's Joe say?
18
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19
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It's your boy, Matt Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch. This is episode 29.
20
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Special shout out to our ride or die freaks joining us in the live chat considering
21
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Euro 2020 is going on right now, Spain versus Italy.
22
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So I appreciate you guys choosing us over,
23
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that match.
24
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If you
25
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if if if you feel the need to go watch that, you can always watch our archives after the fact, but dispatch.com.
26
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They're hosted on bitcoin tv.com.
27
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Full downloads, no ads.
28
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You can even torrent if you want, via bitcoin tv.com, which is pretty fucking cool.
29
00:02:27.034 --> 00:02:29.215
If you're joining us on the audio feed,
30
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that was CNBC
31
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speculating on price because they have a survey of of,
32
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I guess, a bunch of rich people who think Bitcoin's going to be under 30 k at the end of the year.
33
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That formally marks bear hunting season for us.
34
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It's,
35
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it's just pretty interesting watching how quick
36
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people switch,
37
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from bullish to bearish in these cycles.
38
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It's
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it doesn't matter how many times you've been in the space, how long you've been in the space. It it catches you off guard every single time.
40
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So it will be cool to watch
41
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them get caught with their pants down.
42
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What else do I have for us? Today,
43
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we will be focusing on privacy and security best practices.
44
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I have 2 return guests here. I have Kito Miner of Noddle
45
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and Craig Raw of Sparrow Wallet.
46
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I think together, the 3 of us should have a very insightful conversation here about,
47
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you know, probably the most important thing for Bitcoiners today, which is is is getting your privacy and security in order,
48
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before the price goes up,
49
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and you end up securing a lot more money than you are currently holding.
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This is Citadel Dispatch, the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems privacy and open source software. As I said earlier,
51
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this is dispatch number 29.
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We've been coming to you live for over 6 months now.
53
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And as I said earlier, all of those archives are available at seal dispatch.com.
54
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I want to thank all the freaks who continue to support the show and help keep it ad free, commercial free with no sponsors.
55
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That is how I want to continue.
56
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I am here with you guys, ride or die. Let's fucking make it happen. So I do appreciate all the freaks supporting the show.
57
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You can do that through citadel dispatch.com.
58
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You can also do that through our lnurl link on the QR code on the bottom left if you're watching the video stream.
59
00:04:32.010 --> 00:04:37.285
And my favorite way of having you guys support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps,
60
00:04:37.585 --> 00:04:43.740
which you can look up on new podcast apps dot com, which allows you to stream Satch directly to dispatch.
61
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Every every day, after we record live and I post it up to our RSS feed,
62
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I watch the stats stream in from listeners around the world who are using the podcasting 2 point o apps, my favorite one being Breeze.
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We also have a Sphinx tribe, which allows you to not only stream stats, but also we it's a private chat that runs through the lightning network, and you can donate in the in that tribe as well.
64
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So all links for that is also at sail dispatch.com.
65
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Once again, thank you guys for supporting the show. You are what makes dispatch unique and special.
66
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So with all that said,
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I want to welcome Keto Miner onto the show again. Keto, what's up? How's it going? Hello, Preaks.
68
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69
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I love all of our conversations, and,
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I'm excited to have you guys both as as return guests. I I think
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the more your presence is on dispatch, the better for all for the whole audience and all of us including including myself.
73
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I think this discussion will be kinda wide ranging. We do have a decent amount of freaks joining us live here with the live chat, so I expect them to be throwing questions at us as,
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we continue,
75
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this conversation.
76
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I don't know really where we should start at first.
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You know, I I think I think maybe,
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we should maybe let's just start with a little check-in with Sparrow, Craig, because I feel like when you first came on dispatch,
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I don't even know what episode that was. I guess I should have looked that up ahead of time. But I feel like Sparrow,
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has come a long way since then.
81
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I don't know, Matt. For for me, it's it's, you know, I I don't really,
83
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think too much about how much it's growing. You know? It's it's not like there's an incentive model there where I get paid more
84
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the more people that you sort
85
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of use it, really.
86
00:06:50.565 --> 00:06:53.865
So for me, it's it's just a case of of trying to
87
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add the features that make sense and squash any bugs that,
88
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might come as fast as I can.
89
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But I'm I'm pretty proud of it. I think it's
90
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it's starting to,
91
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become seen as a decent option, I hope.
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So,
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yeah, I'm,
94
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I kinda just like,
95
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the fact that the vision that I had is now
96
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kind of a real thing in the world. And,
97
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yeah, it certainly gets me up every day, and,
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proud to be part of the whole sort of Bitcoin ethos that we're in.
99
00:07:31.030 --> 00:07:35.890
100
00:07:36.390 --> 00:07:44.360
you don't you don't really get paid the more users that are using Sparrow, which is true. But, one thing I did think of while you're just speaking there,
101
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is you did re you did add a donation page, I believe, since last time you were on dispatch.
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So, yeah, you can go to sparrowwallet.com/
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donate.
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And I'm very grateful for sure of any, you know
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you
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know, donations
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that I get.
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But, you know, it's it's not about that for me. You know, I I didn't, you know, begin this whole thing looking for that. For me, it's really just about trying to be trying to provide,
110
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a decent option mainly for people
111
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to realize the store of value that Bitcoin holds. Right? That's the number one use case. It's kind of like the the sort of email
112
00:08:27.895 --> 00:08:38.810
use case that the Internet had in the sort of early days that really brought it to the fore, and that's the number one use use case. I just kinda wanted to nail that and do it in a way that I thought was
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best.
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So
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that's kinda what drives me. Yeah.
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117
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we could talk about the trade offs here a little bit.
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You almost kind of I felt like you added it begrudgingly, was that you added
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integrated Bitcoin wallet tracker so that you can just run Bitcoin Core on the same machine as Sparrow,
120
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for easier setup without an Electrum personal server. Right?
121
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122
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my sort of drawbacks,
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00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:38.135
to doing it that way, but I think it's a valid approach. And, you know, as I as I I think I have, like, a pinned sort of tweet, which which says, you know, the ideas that I had at the start are not the ideas that I have now. You know, I kind of had this idea that it has to be the best way or, you know, don't even do it. And what I've realized is that you actually need to kind of take people on this journey
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where many people, I mean, are not gonna in fact, most people are not gonna start off with their own node and running
125
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servers behind the node, and it's just way too much. But, you know,
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job number 1 is to get people to get their coins off in exchange.
127
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So, you know, if you can just get people to download a noncustodial wallet, and even if they're using a public server, you know, you've done, like, 70, 80% of the job. You know? For me, that's critical. And then
128
00:10:08.545 --> 00:10:17.449
moving to a Bitcoin core wallet. Yeah. Sure. You know, Bitcoin core, the wallet does store all of the addresses in plain text. Not ideal for cold storage.
129
00:10:17.750 --> 00:10:23.930
But, you know, again, now you're at least private. And then moving to the Electrum server,
130
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that's just really getting to the stage where even if your server gets, you know, taken out of your hands or hacked or whatever,
131
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no one can tell what's going on. You know? So long so long as as your wallet is encrypted, you're good. So, yeah, I mean, I I did add that, and I sort of now see it as part of the journey.
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So that's
133
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that's kind of,
134
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that kind of happened in
135
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retrospect,
136
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but I think it's good it's there.
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138
00:10:58.030 --> 00:11:01.330
a lot of us that are obsessed with Bitcoin, we tend to get into the weeds,
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you know, especially on Bitcoin Twitter and on this show. I mean, this show is a, you know, a more technical focused show,
140
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for more dedicated Bitcoiners,
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and maybe them helping their friends and family is kind of like the target market that I've
142
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looked at for the the freaks and the audience here.
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And I feel like, you know, sometimes I just
144
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I'm sitting there, like, having a beer, and I'm just like, we get so far into the weeds, and 95%
145
00:11:30.270 --> 00:11:31.490
of people are just
146
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buying Bitcoin on Robinhood, and they can't even withdraw it if they wanted to.
147
00:11:38.705 --> 00:11:46.400
148
00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:48.080
we're gonna get rehypothecated
149
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Bitcoin. Right? That's gonna happen. I mean, if if the risk is
150
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minimal there'll always be some risk, but if the risk is minimal,
151
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then people are gonna do it, and they might get away, away, away with it. And that's that's the big worry to to to me. Right? That's what we have to avoid.
152
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So, you know,
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making wallets that are easy to use, that's kind of what that's the the sort of ethos here. Right? That's that's what I'm trying trying to do anyway.
154
00:12:14.565 --> 00:12:16.105
155
00:12:17.730 --> 00:12:23.670
trying to get users to slowly improve themselves rather than expecting the world for them instantly. Right?
156
00:12:24.450 --> 00:12:26.135
157
00:12:26.855 --> 00:12:33.595
I think I was listening to rabbit hole re recap, and Mark Mody made made the point, like, just make a small improvement
158
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every day, and I think that that makes a huge amount of sense. Right? So just getting people to download
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a wallet to get their coins off the exchange,
160
00:12:42.095 --> 00:12:49.885
great idea. You know, that's that's what I just try and try and do. And if they're using a surf server, which reveals the x x XPub,
161
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You know, I don't worry too much about that because I know that further down down the line, once they're more, you know,
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familiar with what's going on,
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Hopefully, the soft software has taken them on a
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journey to to kind of get to the point where they're thinking, oh, maybe I should go off and buy myself a model. You know?
165
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That's that's kind of what I think we need need to do. It it can't just be landed on them on day 1.
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167
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I guess, battling your own demons with over at at Nautl.
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I mean, Noddle was originally
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I guess when Noddle hit the market,
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there really wasn't
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many
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of these dedicated node projects, and I I feel like Nodl kind of aim to be
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a more user friendly option, a a plug and play. You just buy this device, and it just works.
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Casa
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just launched,
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and,
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the only order on the market was, I don't I'm not sure I recall the name correctly, seed box or something. The the one which was, like,
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an Intel NOC with just Bitcoin installed
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on it, basically. And,
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and the company was supposed initially to make the the summary partnership, but they closed shop just before they they did.
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Yeah. And when I when I first started doing a full node, it was basically just to
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to run Bitcoin Core and go
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through Andrea's book and all the all the comments,
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because I didn't want to do it on my old computer.
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Back then, the blockchain was probably 60 or 70 gigs,
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and and you could run that on a RASP 0.
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I had
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one of the original Nodl's.
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Did you
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you never really decided
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to go
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full grandma mode. Do you wanna, like, talk about why that decision was or, like, how you've had to deal with support requests and the different levels of tech levels of your users? I mean, I I think,
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you know, if if
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most of our audience here listens to pretty much every dispatch, I assume.
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At least that's what the download listen numbers look like.
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And we had, we recently had this
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this node round table,
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with
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the majority the overwhelming majority of dedicated node projects
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on for that show.
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And one thing that becomes very clear
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if you start looking at those different projects is they all kind of try and target different demographics.
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And on one side, you have, like, the Ronin Dojos and the Raspberry Pi Blitz. That's definitely a more advanced user set.
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You know, they,
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Raspberry Pi Blitz still doesn't have a GUI.
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They have, like, a command line style GUI.
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Ronin Dojo just recently added, you know, a a more sexy GUI, but it's definitely a more advanced user product.
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And then you have, like, the my nodes and the umbrells and the start nines that are trying to hold your hand as much as possible and be pretty
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and as user friendly as possible.
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And I feel like Nautle kind of sits in the middle somewhere.
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And
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at the same time, we are working on the advanced
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user mode in which you can just,
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use the UI to edit the configuration files and do whatever you want in them.
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But, yeah, we we just recently started working with, UX person to to to work on the onboarding process and,
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and have something much more user friendly, like, for the first contact.
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And, during this this setup process, you will be able, like, to choose if you want to run-in the user friendly mode or in the advanced mode.
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Yeah. But but yeah. Today, we are definitely, like, really in the middle. And,
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my my goal was not necessarily to be, like, very user friendly, but to,
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to follow some best practices, like,
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the probably the first lines of code I wrote was the installation script for Bitcoin Core, which verifies the signatures,
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and
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and gives you a precise error, like,
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you failed to download, failed to verify signatures.
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Something weird with PGP happened and so on. So that was, like, the first bricks. And,
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yeah. And we we are trying to do that as much as possible for everything.
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I've I'm trying to
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put a connection here between what you guys have been doing at Nautle and what Craig has been working on with Sparrow.
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I feel like you guys
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both
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are kind of hitting that balance in the middle between
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trying to be user friendly and pretty,
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while also not trying to sugarcoat the important stuff,
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which I feel like is not
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a typical
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it's it's not it's not a typical result of what you would see in closed source, you know, Silicon Valley software,
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which is just constantly trying to be, like, the super polished UX and just hide everything from the user and hide all the trade offs from the user.
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So a lot of
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experienced
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dev teams, I feel like, try and go that Silicon Valley approach,
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but maybe
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what we really wanna see in Bitcoin land in terms of increasing that sovereign Bitcoiner base, that base that uses their own node, makes every spend a coin join, avoids KYC,
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helps their friends and family, tries to broaden the circular economy.
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Trying to increase that base
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is is not an easy process.
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It takes a lot of education, which is what I've been focused on is on the education side.
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But I feel like tools like both of yours, where it kind of bridges the gap, where it allows
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it doesn't it doesn't sugarcoat shit, but it's it's still very clean software. Do you know what I mean? Like, the the I feel like is was this an active,
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goal by you guys, or did you just stumble into that result? Because that's what I'm witnessing.
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You know, if you look at what the kind of
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Silicon Valley, VC world is trying to do, they're trying to take responsibility
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away
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from the user,
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make them into
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consumers
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of those those goods, right, which
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is, for me, like, very different from what we're trying to do here in
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Bitcoin, where we're trying to give people
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responsibility
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over their own money. Right? The the kind of value that they earn in their life.
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And for for me, that's that requires a very different mindset.
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So, you know, I look back at a at a career which has been spent mostly, you know, kind of building
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products in that
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VC kind of world, and
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I really feel it's quite different from what I'm doing now.
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So, you know, whether,
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you know, I can't say that I had a conscious sort of thought to go and build it this this way, but it certainly
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Sparrow is, you know, the design that I kind of wanted to build was to, you know, give somebody who really
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took that responsibility
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seriously and sort of wanted to
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take ownership
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of their life, of their money, not kind of put it into the hands of others who can do whatever they want want with it, and give them the tools,
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to be able to really know what's going on, to not not hide anything,
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but still make it easy enough to use so they don't have to go down to the command line or, you know,
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use UIs that are just very obtuse.
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So, yeah, I mean, I I think it's it's absolutely a different thing that we're trying to build build here.
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we, as you said, we are talking to people who want to take back the the ownership and the control over their money. And,
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they should realize that it's
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not easy,
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that there are risks, and,
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and they have to to do choices in educated ways.
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And, yeah, hiding too much stuff can just lead to mistakes and, and overconfidence.
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which is why I'm a
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big advocate for both of your, projects.
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So, I mean, with all that said, I mean, first of all, you know,
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classic,
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disclaimer.
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I don't want
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our audience to get overwhelmed when it comes to privacy and security.
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It is a it is a constant step improvement. You should just constantly be seeking to improve yourself. The number one thing is to realize
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how much information you're really leaking out there. And,
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the reality is
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is that we are leaking tons and tons of information on a daily basis,
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not just in Bitcoin land, but also in Bitcoin land.
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In Bitcoin, it's extra dangerous
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because real money is on the line,
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and the Bitcoin blockchain is presumably forever if we are correct.
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This chain will last
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longer than any of us will last,
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and it will have a record of all the transactions there. So mistakes you make today
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can be used against you in the future, and we should assume they will be used against you in the future.
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And if you mix that with
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the growing surveillance state both on
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the government side and the corporate surveillance side, and the mix together of those two entities, those two
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forces of surveillance
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together,
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you combine that with Bitcoin information, and all of a sudden,
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our financial transactions are an open book. So it's really important that Bitcoiners today start realizing how important this is and start taking steps to improve their processes.
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So with all that said, I mean, let's just dump jump into the weeds. I mean, I I have a list here of of things that that Craig mentioned that I would love to talk about.
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And then, you know, there's a bunch of different things we can talk about. But, before we get started,
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we had
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this we had this recent scare with Specter Wallet, another,
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another
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project that aims to interface with your node and use it with hardware wallets.
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So similar target market as Sparrow.
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What's really cool about the 2 of them is you can you can use them interchangeably,
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because they operate on the same standards. So if you're, for instance, running a nodal and you have it connected
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relatively painlessly.
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It also lets you,
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verify what each is showing you if you're running 2 separate machines, 1 with Sparrow
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plus,
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a node, whether that's Bitcoin Core or Electrum Server,
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and one with Spectre plus a node.
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So with Spectre, very popular project.
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My main go to guide in terms of getting started with self sovereign storage is using a cold card plus Spectre.
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Their Windows binary, they had a scare with. So during the build process of building that Windows install file, that Windows application file,
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the dotexe,
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they were afraid that they did it on an infected machine, and it carried a Trojan.
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So we've talked about on the show in the past
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about how
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users should verify PGP signatures to make sure that, for instance, Craig actually built the Sparrow binary that you're installing.
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But in this case, if the Spectre vulnerability was true, which it turned out to be a false alarm, it wasn't,
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verifying the PGP signatures alone wouldn't have done anything for you. It wouldn't have protected you because,
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the the Spectre developer actually did
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build that that binary,
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and signed it with his actual PGP key.
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It just had a a they they just thought that maybe a Trojan had slipped into that build process, so it wouldn't have protected you from the on the PGP side.
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So I'm curious, you know, both of you guys shipped software. I I guess we'll start with Craig.
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How do you feel like, did this
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wake you up at all to your build processes? Is this is this something that you're actively considering before it happened?
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How do you view, like, your relationship with your users in turn I mean, obviously, they could build from source,
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but the overwhelming majority of users are probably not building from source and probably will never build from source. So how do you view that as
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a when you threat model that out for you and your users?
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spec Spectra guys handled it very, very well. You know, they were fully upfront with it and kind of pulled, you know,
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pulled that particular
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binary down until they found that it was the
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actually, sort of a false positive from some antivirus, I think.
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You know,
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I think what you need to do is is to really just make sure that the build environment that you're using is is sort of clean. You know? I think that that's
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really clear. And and, you know, that's some something which, you know, I think I'm doing pretty well, but I can always be better.
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So just making sure that,
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you know, the the kind of machines that that final binary is built on just have absolutely zero,
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chance of well, as as little chance as you can get of some kind of infection trying to creep in. You know, I think from a,
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in the particular world
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of Java that I work in,
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it's gonna be pretty hard because the Java builds,
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are
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just
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extremely,
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I I don't know how how to say it, but they're just very,
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sort of,
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bay bay basically put 2 together get get get get get that in a way that it's really hard for anything alien to be able to come in there.
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That's not to say that it couldn't happen, and I'm certainly trying to dream up ways in which it could.
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But I think, you know,
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largely, it's just really about trying to make sure that the build process that you have
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is good. The second point is really trying to make sure that whatever dependencies
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you are,
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you sort of need to bring in in order to do the work that you're doing,
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that you have a very clear idea of what they are. So, you know, when
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I build you know, look at something that I'm I need it need need to add some kind of a a
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new
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software,
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you know, loop to add
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to be able to get a new
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feature in, what I do is I see, well, what else is that thing trying to bring in? And if it's too much, then I just won't use it.
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And it's really just about it's not only about trying to get the size of the binary down, but it's also just about trying to make sure that you understand that when that binary is built,
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you know what size it should be. And you can look through it and just kind of eyeball it and say, okay. Yes. This makes sense. All of those files are correct.
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So those kind of things is also things that you can do.
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You
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know? Yeah. I I think,
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ultimately,
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you know, the more people that look look at it, the more people that build,
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ultimately getting deterministic
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builds is a great step step forward as well.
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We're all trying to work towards that, but companies like Apple make it very hard.
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So, yeah, those those, I guess, are my my sort of headline thoughts, Matt.
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yeah. I I guess there's well, first of all, Kito, you have anything to add there?
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when when I've seen this alert,
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my first thought were like,
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it's pretty unlikely it's not a false positive, actually,
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because the two ways it could have happened is all the build machine itself being infected. And if you check the signature of this,
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of what matched,
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in this antivirus, which I remember correctly, it's around somewhere. So you usually notice,
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that on your computer.
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And second possibility
406
00:30:33.070 --> 00:30:34.050
would be someone
407
00:30:34.590 --> 00:30:35.490
else uploading,
408
00:30:36.910 --> 00:30:37.890
malicious binary
409
00:30:38.270 --> 00:30:39.330
to the repository
410
00:30:39.630 --> 00:30:40.130
with
411
00:30:40.565 --> 00:30:42.985
correct signature, which is even less likely.
412
00:30:44.405 --> 00:30:50.900
And it's not like we don't have a history of open source projects, especially crypto and privacy related that trigger,
413
00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:51.940
antiviruses.
414
00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:52.820
So
415
00:30:53.360 --> 00:30:53.860
yeah.
416
00:30:54.960 --> 00:30:55.620
Of course,
417
00:30:56.545 --> 00:30:59.445
from outside, it was impossible to to judge 100%,
418
00:30:59.905 --> 00:31:01.045
but it was pretty,
419
00:31:02.785 --> 00:31:08.320
the probability was pretty high that it was a false positive for especially coming from 1 or 2 antiviruses
420
00:31:08.620 --> 00:31:10.480
out of 20 different ones.
421
00:31:11.500 --> 00:31:12.000
422
00:31:13.815 --> 00:31:14.715
so Greg mentioned,
423
00:31:15.655 --> 00:31:19.515
424
00:31:20.750 --> 00:31:23.409
we so we have not that we don't don't deliver
425
00:31:24.590 --> 00:31:30.135
almost any binaries. It's all interpreted code, so you can read the code that is actually executed anyway.
426
00:31:30.995 --> 00:31:31.815
But if
427
00:31:32.275 --> 00:31:34.455
we were to deliver any binaries,
428
00:31:35.955 --> 00:31:36.455
deterministic
429
00:31:36.835 --> 00:31:42.030
builds are definitely the way to go because you can, like in your build chain, you could have
430
00:31:42.490 --> 00:31:43.150
2 totally
431
00:31:43.770 --> 00:31:46.030
separate environments, 2 different computers,
432
00:31:47.315 --> 00:31:50.695
building the binary and compare it at the end. If it matches,
433
00:31:51.875 --> 00:31:57.000
then you can assume your computers are fine and the binary is fine. If one of them is different,
434
00:31:57.940 --> 00:32:01.640
you can assume that one of these 2 computers are doing something strange.
435
00:32:03.575 --> 00:32:07.115
Also, like, try to avoid using any
436
00:32:07.735 --> 00:32:12.794
stuff pulled from external repositories, not only dependencies. But for example, if you're using,
437
00:32:14.120 --> 00:32:15.500
like, a a base OS,
438
00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:18.620
docker image in your build,
439
00:32:19.399 --> 00:32:22.154
this image can very well be very,
440
00:32:23.255 --> 00:32:24.315
can be compromised.
441
00:32:26.774 --> 00:32:30.680
I don't recall exactly, but I think there were some occurrences when
442
00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:31.660
some
443
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:39.420
some, images on the Docker Hub, like official images, were were compromised with something already that that's already happened.
444
00:32:40.415 --> 00:32:43.535
So, yeah, like, really control your your strip
445
00:32:44.335 --> 00:32:46.755
your build environment to the bare minimum.
446
00:32:48.740 --> 00:32:54.600
For example, when I'm building even for tests, like BTCPay server on my local development machine,
447
00:32:55.140 --> 00:33:00.745
I run the build itself in a virtual machine, which is, like, the base OS with nothing in it,
448
00:33:01.525 --> 00:33:05.625
on the on the dot net and the source code, and and I build it there.
449
00:33:08.410 --> 00:33:16.105
Yeah. Like, it had just have full control. And and as Craig said, like, on Windows and Mac, obviously, it's more complicated than on on Linux.
450
00:33:18.005 --> 00:33:20.664
I mean, most people if you want to have signed binaries.
451
00:33:21.365 --> 00:33:22.745
452
00:33:23.419 --> 00:33:26.399
at least playing around with the cheap Linux machine.
453
00:33:27.019 --> 00:33:30.399
You know, get a cheap Dell or ThinkPad or something install.
454
00:33:31.155 --> 00:33:33.575
I like Pop!OS as a as a learner,
455
00:33:34.115 --> 00:33:35.015
Linux distro,
456
00:33:35.795 --> 00:33:38.935
and we start trying to get comfortable with it. You know, maybe
457
00:33:39.650 --> 00:33:43.510
with the ideal goal long term to make that your dedicated Bitcoin machine.
458
00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:47.350
I think we're doing it again, and we're gonna do it many times
459
00:33:48.105 --> 00:33:55.085
in this, discussion where we jump into the weeds very hard, and I want to be able to pull us back every time we do that
460
00:33:56.779 --> 00:34:00.080
to go to to to talk about something that's actionable
461
00:34:00.620 --> 00:34:02.720
for the average user to protect themselves.
462
00:34:04.755 --> 00:34:07.894
You know, the multisig approach that both Spectre and,
463
00:34:08.675 --> 00:34:10.535
Sparrow have focused on
464
00:34:11.075 --> 00:34:13.734
do seem to mitigate this concern a bit.
465
00:34:15.310 --> 00:34:15.810
Obviously,
466
00:34:16.190 --> 00:34:17.490
if there was a Trojan,
467
00:34:18.670 --> 00:34:20.930
you would still have a privacy risk,
468
00:34:21.395 --> 00:34:32.360
which Craig talks about a lot of times, specifically with the the default setup that a lot of people use on Spectre, which I'm guilty of recommending as well, where you run core directly on the same machine, so you do have,
469
00:34:34.200 --> 00:34:35.980
all your all your transaction
470
00:34:36.375 --> 00:34:41.355
information is on that machine, so you do have a privacy risk there. But if you're using multisig,
471
00:34:42.695 --> 00:34:45.355
with hardware wallets, the different hardware wallets,
472
00:34:46.050 --> 00:34:47.030
and you're verifying
473
00:34:48.130 --> 00:34:48.630
the
474
00:34:49.090 --> 00:34:52.710
transaction information on on your actual devices
475
00:34:53.410 --> 00:34:54.710
before you sign them,
476
00:34:55.654 --> 00:34:57.515
it would mitigate this risk. Right?
477
00:35:00.214 --> 00:35:06.569
478
00:35:08.069 --> 00:35:15.425
Maybe Craig can can help me on that, but I I think some of them just don't show anything meaningful when you do not play sig.
479
00:35:16.365 --> 00:35:18.065
480
00:35:18.530 --> 00:35:23.830
getting there, and I think they're getting there pretty fast. I've just had a a sort of a new batch of the
481
00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:25.590
the sort of newer ones
482
00:35:25.994 --> 00:35:28.415
arrive at my my desk, and and definitely
483
00:35:28.955 --> 00:35:31.215
is becoming a must have. So
484
00:35:31.835 --> 00:35:34.815
those that don't do do it well, I think, will need to,
485
00:35:35.275 --> 00:35:37.100
up their game pretty fast,
486
00:35:37.500 --> 00:35:39.120
in order to stay
487
00:35:39.580 --> 00:35:40.320
in the game.
488
00:35:41.500 --> 00:35:44.400
489
00:35:45.495 --> 00:35:46.955
as a broader community
490
00:35:47.255 --> 00:35:50.715
is is reduce single points of failure. Right? So even if,
491
00:35:51.655 --> 00:35:53.515
Spectre or Sparrow is compromised,
492
00:35:54.790 --> 00:35:57.050
you would you would basically need
493
00:35:57.750 --> 00:36:01.450
a combination of that and a plurality of your hardware devices
494
00:36:02.310 --> 00:36:03.450
and user error
495
00:36:04.155 --> 00:36:07.375
in order to lose funds in that kind of situation. Right?
496
00:36:07.675 --> 00:36:10.095
497
00:36:11.180 --> 00:36:16.880
So, yeah, that that's that's the sort of that's the sort of goal, that we all try to work, you know,
498
00:36:17.740 --> 00:36:18.240
towards,
499
00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:20.720
and we don't have to get there on
500
00:36:21.325 --> 00:36:22.704
day 1 as we say,
501
00:36:23.085 --> 00:36:23.585
but
502
00:36:23.885 --> 00:36:24.865
so long as
503
00:36:25.244 --> 00:36:30.410
people are kind of learning all the time about the different factors that go into that,
504
00:36:30.869 --> 00:36:40.915
it's definitely something that can can be done. I mean, I'm I like to say that if you if you are using single sig with a gold card, you basically understand
505
00:36:41.295 --> 00:36:42.435
70, you know,
506
00:36:42.950 --> 00:36:46.410
percent of what you need to to know to move to a multisync.
507
00:36:47.349 --> 00:36:53.135
It's not that much hot harder. And I'm not trying to push people there. I think that people need
508
00:36:53.515 --> 00:36:59.290
to kind of get there in their own own time, but, it's often made out to be like this giant leap
509
00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:06.750
beyond a single sig set of setup. And I I don't think it really is anymore. It was for sure, but it's not so much anymore.
510
00:37:08.234 --> 00:37:10.015
It can definitely be reached.
511
00:37:11.835 --> 00:37:14.815
512
00:37:16.420 --> 00:37:23.720
then going and securing all those individual backups. Right? It's just more things mentally that you're you're you're dealing with,
513
00:37:25.065 --> 00:37:29.325
But at the same time, that's kind of a a feature, not a bug. Right? I mean, if,
514
00:37:30.425 --> 00:37:32.845
if any of those individual backups get compromised,
515
00:37:33.190 --> 00:37:37.370
it's better, obviously, than if you have a single sig backup get compromised.
516
00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:49.305
517
00:37:50.589 --> 00:37:52.289
and you are concerned,
518
00:37:52.990 --> 00:38:00.805
and you're kind of keeping you up a little bit at night, you know, you whenever you think about it, you're like, I got a bit of a worry there. Price has gone
519
00:38:01.185 --> 00:38:12.859
up. Then you're really carrying that kind of mental load, and multisync just takes that away. Right? Now you're thinking to yourself, there's like zero chance. You know? I've got these backups. They're in different locations.
520
00:38:13.505 --> 00:38:32.235
You know? I've the you know, somebody could come here right now and demand it all, and I can just say, sorry. You know? It it can't happen. You know? So for me, it's it's really about trying to balance the mental load, and and you'll know when you are carrying that that sort of load and when you need to seek out the peace of mind that multisig can bring.
521
00:38:33.255 --> 00:38:36.395
522
00:38:37.570 --> 00:38:39.650
the fact that I have both of you on is,
523
00:38:40.210 --> 00:38:41.430
fantastic because,
524
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:43.910
I mean, if
525
00:38:44.365 --> 00:38:48.305
if if you're a new user and you buy a Nodl and you plug it in,
526
00:38:48.765 --> 00:38:52.385
and you update it, and then you connect it to, ideally, a dedicated
527
00:38:52.845 --> 00:38:53.345
laptop
528
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:55.099
or desktop
529
00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:58.140
with Sparrow Wallet running,
530
00:38:58.599 --> 00:38:59.579
that's a relatively
531
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:03.019
easy accessible setup process, and all of a sudden,
532
00:39:03.825 --> 00:39:05.285
you have a more secure,
533
00:39:07.984 --> 00:39:10.964
a more secure way of using Bitcoin than the 99%
534
00:39:11.265 --> 00:39:15.520
of people out there. And and the fact that that exists, that capability exists,
535
00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:18.559
in a relatively accessible way
536
00:39:19.275 --> 00:39:24.734
is absolutely understated. I I think people don't realize how far we've come. You know, 2 years ago,
537
00:39:25.835 --> 00:39:28.840
that kind of setup would have been way, way, way less accessible
538
00:39:33.560 --> 00:39:35.000
So I have a bunch of
539
00:39:36.040 --> 00:39:40.025
I have, like, 6 different people who privately messaged me telling me,
540
00:39:41.065 --> 00:39:41.785
that I shouldn't,
541
00:39:42.185 --> 00:39:42.685
schedule
542
00:39:43.705 --> 00:39:45.725
SIL dispatches during Euro 2020.
543
00:39:46.290 --> 00:39:47.570
As far as I'm concerned, freaks,
544
00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:52.790
Euro 2020 using Bitcoin Tuesdays to to do games,
545
00:39:53.385 --> 00:39:54.905
is a state attack. So,
546
00:39:55.305 --> 00:39:57.005
that tournament will be over soon.
547
00:39:57.305 --> 00:39:58.365
Uh-huh. Like I said,
548
00:39:59.145 --> 00:40:03.690
the archives are always available. You you are missed if you're not in the live chat right now.
549
00:40:04.470 --> 00:40:06.490
The live chat is what makes this great.
550
00:40:07.109 --> 00:40:07.430
But,
551
00:40:08.069 --> 00:40:10.065
there's really nothing we could do about that, and I'm
552
00:40:12.065 --> 00:40:13.125
just glad that we're still having these great conversations about Bitcoin.
553
00:40:15.025 --> 00:40:15.265
The
554
00:40:16.305 --> 00:40:21.240
so let's let's jump into this. So so so we have BIP 47 on the list to discuss.
555
00:40:22.100 --> 00:40:22.840
BIP 47,
556
00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:26.840
is this reusable payment code,
557
00:40:27.540 --> 00:40:28.200
that allows
558
00:40:29.245 --> 00:40:29.745
individuals
559
00:40:30.285 --> 00:40:31.025
to accept,
560
00:40:31.485 --> 00:40:33.505
the main the main use case to me,
561
00:40:34.365 --> 00:40:37.025
and the samurai guys will disagree with me, is
562
00:40:37.405 --> 00:40:37.905
for,
563
00:40:40.140 --> 00:40:52.505
easily accepting donations. And I had Gladstein, Alex Gladstein from, chief strategy officer of HRF last week, and it's a lot of it's it's work that I've been doing with him on the sidelines in terms of getting activists
564
00:40:52.805 --> 00:40:55.305
to be able to easily accept Bitcoin without running,
565
00:40:56.510 --> 00:41:02.450
you know, without running, quite frankly, without running BTC pay server on some, you know, server somewhere,
566
00:41:03.390 --> 00:41:11.845
which a lot of times requires KYC, has overhead costs, has its own privacy concerns that you have to deal with in terms of trying to obtain a server
567
00:41:12.145 --> 00:41:14.165
without KYC ing yourself. I know,
568
00:41:14.580 --> 00:41:17.720
Keter miner has a side project that allows you to do that,
569
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:19.240
using Bitcoin,
570
00:41:19.620 --> 00:41:23.800
but that's not really my point here. The cool thing about bit 47 is that you have this,
571
00:41:25.505 --> 00:41:31.925
you just have this text string that you can post in a Twitter bio or something like that, and people can donate to you
572
00:41:33.009 --> 00:41:34.869
without reusing the same address.
573
00:41:35.329 --> 00:41:37.029
Now, unfortunately, the biggest
574
00:41:37.410 --> 00:41:43.295
trade off that we have to deal with with BIP 47 right now is is the only ones who have implemented it.
575
00:41:43.835 --> 00:41:45.295
And if you don't have wide
576
00:41:45.915 --> 00:41:47.454
wallet support, specifically,
577
00:41:48.315 --> 00:41:49.375
is only Android.
578
00:41:50.140 --> 00:41:59.360
As far as I'm concerned, people should if they're an iPhone user, they can should consider switching from iPhone. But if they don't wanna switch from iPhone, they should buy a cheap Pixel and use it as their dedicated Samuari device.
579
00:41:59.865 --> 00:42:00.925
But as
580
00:42:01.385 --> 00:42:04.525
a project at Civil Dispatch that's trying to
581
00:42:05.945 --> 00:42:08.685
really adopt the ethos of free open source software,
582
00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:10.950
and not have advertisements,
583
00:42:11.410 --> 00:42:13.910
we're heavily donation based, and
584
00:42:14.370 --> 00:42:18.870
we're constantly seeking out alternatives to how we can accept donations.
585
00:42:19.555 --> 00:42:21.895
And one of the issues to me with BIP 47
586
00:42:22.195 --> 00:42:25.015
is that if I post this payment code,
587
00:42:25.395 --> 00:42:28.275
there's only one wallet where people can donate from. And I I'm
588
00:42:29.040 --> 00:42:34.100
so instead, I've opted for lnurl. I've adopted, you know, these podcasting 2 point o apps,
589
00:42:35.040 --> 00:42:39.235
but they have similar issues. You know? There's not all lightning wallet support it.
590
00:42:39.855 --> 00:42:47.079
So what we really wanna see is we wanna see broad adoption of all these standards, but let's. We're focusing on bit 47 here, which is on chain,
591
00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:48.680
allows you to do,
592
00:42:49.460 --> 00:42:50.839
you know, many donations,
593
00:42:51.300 --> 00:42:52.280
many payments
594
00:42:52.825 --> 00:42:56.445
to a known text string without reusing addresses.
595
00:42:58.345 --> 00:43:00.765
I know, Craig, you've been pretty
596
00:43:01.609 --> 00:43:03.869
decently outspoken about considering
597
00:43:04.970 --> 00:43:06.190
integrating it into
598
00:43:06.490 --> 00:43:12.345
Sparrow Wallet. I'm curious on what your thoughts are there around it and and whether or not you think it's a good fit for Sparrow.
599
00:43:13.365 --> 00:43:18.030
600
00:43:18.910 --> 00:43:20.350
what I actually wanted to do,
601
00:43:20.750 --> 00:43:21.810
here was just,
602
00:43:23.150 --> 00:43:24.530
help the freaks understand,
603
00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:29.345
you know, why I think we're only seeing it in one wallet to date. Right?
604
00:43:29.984 --> 00:43:33.365
You know, because there's been a lot of kind of rumors
605
00:43:34.625 --> 00:43:38.470
and ideas going on around, you know, why have so few wallets,
606
00:43:39.330 --> 00:43:40.790
built this thing thing in.
607
00:43:41.090 --> 00:43:49.595
So, you know, here's the perspective of a dev who's been trying to do it, trying to look look into it. And I've just kind of wanted to without,
608
00:43:50.295 --> 00:43:50.954
you know,
609
00:43:51.330 --> 00:43:57.830
without trying to say it's good or bad or anything, actually, just trying to try to say, like, here's the challenges that are,
610
00:43:58.610 --> 00:44:02.885
incurred when you try and and build against this particular spec.
611
00:44:03.984 --> 00:44:08.540
In order to do this, I'm gonna have to dive into a few technical details, but hopefully,
612
00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:14.060
it will be not too bad, and I won't go too deep into it. Let's go deep. I'm down.
613
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:15.260
614
00:44:16.015 --> 00:44:18.035
615
00:44:18.414 --> 00:44:22.835
you've got what are now four versions of this particular spec.
616
00:44:23.730 --> 00:44:27.430
We're gonna go through the different versions because I think it's useful,
617
00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:30.790
and I think it's valid. You you kind of have to understand
618
00:44:31.164 --> 00:44:35.105
where this thing has come come from in order to understand where it's going.
619
00:44:35.644 --> 00:44:36.704
So version 1,
620
00:44:37.085 --> 00:44:39.105
which was released back in 2015,
621
00:44:39.484 --> 00:44:40.865
so it's been around a while.
622
00:44:41.470 --> 00:44:44.770
So we we have these as Matt described, we have these payment codes.
623
00:44:45.390 --> 00:44:45.890
Everyone
624
00:44:46.270 --> 00:44:48.369
who has a BIP 47
625
00:44:48.910 --> 00:44:51.325
capable wallet can get a payment
626
00:44:51.865 --> 00:44:55.645
code. And with that payment code, somebody who wants to pay you
627
00:44:56.265 --> 00:45:13.915
can send a special transaction with a certain kind of output called an op return up output. And if they do that, then basically what happens is that there's this private wallet, which is your wallet as the owner of the BIFF 47 wallet. It's like your own kind of a new wallet that you would create.
628
00:45:14.775 --> 00:45:15.835
But it's only
629
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:23.980
visible, or at least the addresses are only visible to the person who's trying to pay you, to the person who created this output, which is called a notification
630
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:24.940
output.
631
00:45:25.455 --> 00:45:27.555
Right? So that's what that's basically how
632
00:45:28.415 --> 00:45:29.875
the 47 works.
633
00:45:30.735 --> 00:45:31.235
Now,
634
00:45:32.175 --> 00:45:35.960
the first thing to be aware of is that when you create this output,
635
00:45:37.220 --> 00:45:48.165
that that sets this whole thing thing up, you are probably going to have some change from from it because this particular output has no real value attached to it. It's just kind of got a very minimal
636
00:45:48.465 --> 00:45:51.765
amount to it. So that change amount that gets sent back
637
00:45:52.839 --> 00:45:57.580
has a certain privacy risk attached to it. Okay? So if if you are now,
638
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:04.675
using that change output and you use it to pay someone else, they can then look back at that change output,
639
00:46:05.055 --> 00:46:08.900
link it back to the payment code that you sent this
640
00:46:09.299 --> 00:46:17.945
notification output to, and then they can tell that you want to create that link. So there is a bit of privacy leakage there. And what the spec advisers
641
00:46:18.245 --> 00:46:35.035
or suggests at least is that that change output should be coin joined. Now that imply I mean, they they don't say it must must be, but you can see that's why they would advise it. Now that implies that a wallet needs to have access to a coin joint, you know,
642
00:46:36.135 --> 00:46:36.795
kind of,
643
00:46:40.855 --> 00:46:41.335
sort of
644
00:46:42.180 --> 00:46:49.320
piece of collaborative transaction tool Yeah. The the wallet. That's it. That's it. So, you know, so that's one thing that, you know,
645
00:46:49.855 --> 00:46:57.170
write kind of off off the bat. As as you begin, you kind of realize, okay. Well, that's something that we'll have to think about how we're gonna build.
646
00:46:57.730 --> 00:47:00.790
Now once this link has been created,
647
00:47:01.890 --> 00:47:03.270
what happens is
648
00:47:03.650 --> 00:47:04.150
that
649
00:47:04.505 --> 00:47:06.685
the that you, as the receiver
650
00:47:06.985 --> 00:47:07.885
of the payments,
651
00:47:08.345 --> 00:47:16.510
basically have this new wallet. And this new wallet, you have to then have a set of addresses, which which you create up to the gap limit, which is usually, you know, sort
652
00:47:17.210 --> 00:47:17.790
of 20.
653
00:47:18.330 --> 00:47:20.349
And that allows you to receive,
654
00:47:20.924 --> 00:47:23.585
you know, the then the the the
655
00:47:24.765 --> 00:47:28.385
payee, the person who's trying to send you the donation,
656
00:47:28.924 --> 00:47:29.984
can then create
657
00:47:30.339 --> 00:47:37.400
an address, which you will then receive the man money for. And nobody else in the world will be able to know that they then
658
00:47:37.785 --> 00:47:39.405
sent, you know, that,
659
00:47:40.665 --> 00:47:41.645
sort of Bitcoin
660
00:47:42.665 --> 00:47:43.965
transaction to you.
661
00:47:44.505 --> 00:47:45.005
Now,
662
00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:52.140
every time that you receive a new notification output that someone creates this link, you get a new
663
00:47:52.745 --> 00:47:55.645
wallet with a new set of addresses attached to it.
664
00:47:56.345 --> 00:47:56.845
Now
665
00:47:57.465 --> 00:48:07.170
there's some interesting things to think think about when you're trying to build against against this. Right? So so all HD wallets, all kind of BIP 32 wallets,
666
00:48:07.549 --> 00:48:16.984
you currently have to support 2 lists of addresses. You have to support the receive addresses and the change add addresses. Right? And these are lists that grow in length over time.
667
00:48:17.285 --> 00:48:23.400
So adding one of these BIP 47 wallets, whenever you create this link is basically a new list.
668
00:48:24.020 --> 00:48:24.520
And
669
00:48:24.900 --> 00:48:30.984
this has this kind of list of addresses that have all the UTXOs that hang off off them is
670
00:48:32.005 --> 00:48:32.744
the major,
671
00:48:34.484 --> 00:48:36.585
kind of data store and
672
00:48:37.340 --> 00:48:43.440
server kind of load that you have to place on any wallet. So it's it's quite a big thing that you're now taking
673
00:48:43.820 --> 00:48:52.795
a number which is bound in a 2, and you're making it into a longer kind of list. Right? So that's some something that a wallet dev needs to think about.
674
00:48:55.040 --> 00:49:00.579
For example, right now, if you are using the current Eletris build and you open,
675
00:49:01.075 --> 00:49:03.655
you know, 3 or 4 decent sized wallets,
676
00:49:04.035 --> 00:49:05.815
it's gonna really start to battle.
677
00:49:06.355 --> 00:49:09.895
Now the new version, which is coming out, is gonna make that better, but it's still
678
00:49:10.210 --> 00:49:11.830
something to think about because
679
00:49:12.210 --> 00:49:16.470
what makes it struggle is the number of subscribed addresses that you have.
680
00:49:16.770 --> 00:49:22.355
Every subscribed address, whenever there's a new transaction that comes in on the mem mem mempool,
681
00:49:22.655 --> 00:49:28.940
it needs to be matched against that particular wallet. And you're trying to see, well, does this apply to my wallet or not?
682
00:49:29.339 --> 00:49:31.760
And the more of those addresses that you add
683
00:49:32.060 --> 00:49:37.200
is the more load that that server has to bear. So it is something that you need to think think about.
684
00:49:37.515 --> 00:49:41.535
And you also, as the owner of the BIP 47 wallet, have no
685
00:49:41.835 --> 00:49:45.454
control, obviously, over the number of times somebody opens
686
00:49:45.835 --> 00:49:59.155
687
00:49:59.775 --> 00:50:02.195
like, an attacker can just come in and
688
00:50:02.910 --> 00:50:05.170
create a bunch of different relationships. Right?
689
00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:15.065
690
00:50:15.445 --> 00:50:21.500
when trying to build against against against against it. But, you know, the the last thing I want is that somebody fires up,
691
00:50:21.880 --> 00:50:22.620
you know,
692
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:27.915
Sparrow wallet, and the thing just doesn't doesn't work. Right? That's that's,
693
00:50:28.315 --> 00:50:31.935
not a situation which I can have. So I I do need to consider,
694
00:50:32.315 --> 00:50:34.655
as I build this, how do I deal with that?
695
00:50:36.040 --> 00:50:43.020
Then getting back to the fact we're still on version 1 here, we're still looking at the old legacy paid to pubkey hash outputs,
696
00:50:43.395 --> 00:50:47.975
which means that if you are using a nice native Seg Segwit wallet,
697
00:50:48.355 --> 00:50:59.980
you will have to receive on these old style addresses. That means that your Sparo wallet now has to either understand different script types, or you just need to actually, when you set up your wallet, have an old
698
00:51:01.215 --> 00:51:04.915
script script script type and incur the higher fees that comes with that.
699
00:51:05.295 --> 00:51:08.435
So those are a few thoughts around version version 1.
700
00:51:09.880 --> 00:51:18.540
Now version 2, we can skip past because it uses bloom full full filters, which we don't really have in Bitcoin anymore, so,
701
00:51:19.145 --> 00:51:21.244
we can move on to version 3.
702
00:51:21.625 --> 00:51:24.525
The nice thing about version 3 is that it takes away this,
703
00:51:25.145 --> 00:51:29.450
this kind of op return output, which was a big part of why
704
00:51:29.830 --> 00:51:31.050
I think people didn't,
705
00:51:31.510 --> 00:51:47.640
go for bit 47 at the start. And what it replaces it with is a bare multisig 1 of 3 output. And what that means is that you have basically a transaction output that you can slide into any other transaction that you have. So you don't have to create a specific,
706
00:51:48.020 --> 00:51:49.400
you know, kind of very
707
00:51:49.700 --> 00:51:50.760
easy to identify,
708
00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:51.955
you know,
709
00:51:52.435 --> 00:51:56.615
link, you know, instead, you can just add it to any other
710
00:51:56.915 --> 00:51:57.655
kind of
711
00:52:00.290 --> 00:52:00.790
Bitcoin
712
00:52:02.450 --> 00:52:03.350
transact act action
713
00:52:03.810 --> 00:52:04.790
that you're making,
714
00:52:05.090 --> 00:52:06.150
and it can appear
715
00:52:06.615 --> 00:52:12.235
fairly I mean, these outputs are not common, but at least it's not something completely unique.
716
00:52:14.340 --> 00:52:21.960
However, there is an issue with this. Right? And I didn't actually realize this until I kind of read the spec about 3 three times.
717
00:52:22.405 --> 00:52:25.865
But one of the issues here is that you actually need to listen
718
00:52:26.325 --> 00:52:33.520
for a key within the output script. You can't kind of listen to the output script as a whole. You have to listen to just a part of it.
719
00:52:34.460 --> 00:52:42.635
Now server product protocols are just not generally designed for this. So Bitcoin Core can't do this today. Electrum Servers can't do this today.
720
00:52:43.095 --> 00:52:44.875
What the author, Justice,
721
00:52:46.215 --> 00:52:46.715
has
722
00:52:47.290 --> 00:52:47.730
basically,
723
00:52:48.170 --> 00:52:51.710
you know, his kind of approach to this is to use BIP
724
00:52:52.090 --> 00:52:54.350
157, which is the BIP for complex
725
00:52:54.675 --> 00:52:57.255
block filter filters, the successor to bloom.
726
00:52:57.795 --> 00:52:59.255
And he's basically
727
00:52:59.715 --> 00:53:01.655
created a enhanced
728
00:53:02.560 --> 00:53:03.220
blue an
729
00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:04.580
enhanced filter,
730
00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:07.380
which allows you to then look inside
731
00:53:08.080 --> 00:53:14.895
the script. So it's almost like saying, here's the middle part of the address, and we we just wanna match on
732
00:53:15.275 --> 00:53:20.880
characters, you know, 10 to 20. Right? We don't want to care about the other ones on either side.
733
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:21.839
And,
734
00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:25.859
that's quite a challenge. Now as far as I know, and I might be wrong,
735
00:53:28.145 --> 00:53:32.725
this particular filter has not been added to Bitcoin Core. So if you wanted
736
00:53:33.185 --> 00:53:33.845
to go and
737
00:53:34.465 --> 00:53:35.365
do this today,
738
00:53:35.665 --> 00:53:37.045
I'm not sure that you could.
739
00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:41.099
Again, this is, you know, just me trying to figure it out. So,
740
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:45.339
this is one of the issues trying to
741
00:53:45.855 --> 00:53:47.795
overcome with version 3.
742
00:53:48.575 --> 00:53:52.595
Assuming that we can do this with version 3, you then have
743
00:53:53.520 --> 00:54:03.195
these lists of addresses, which you then need to listen for again. But in version 3, you need to listen to 3 different script script types. You need to listen to pay to pubkey.
744
00:54:03.735 --> 00:54:11.550
You need to listen to pay you need to listen to the the kind of native seg seg segwit version that we all hopefully use today,
745
00:54:12.010 --> 00:54:18.734
and you need to listen to pay to pub pubkey hash, which is the old version 1. So you now have not only
746
00:54:19.035 --> 00:54:21.295
an unbounded list of these,
747
00:54:22.234 --> 00:54:23.214
lists of
748
00:54:23.595 --> 00:54:24.815
of of sort of
749
00:54:26.600 --> 00:54:34.780
addresses that you need to listen to, but you multiply that by 3 as well. So that does increase the load. Now I was a bit concerned about this, so
750
00:54:35.205 --> 00:54:36.745
Justice and I had a chat,
751
00:54:37.125 --> 00:54:42.185
and it resulted in version 4 of this spec of the bit 40 47
752
00:54:42.740 --> 00:54:46.360
spec, which is now has a different different name, but it's the same thing.
753
00:54:46.740 --> 00:54:47.960
And that is basically
754
00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:50.840
where one only has to listen to a native
755
00:54:51.185 --> 00:54:51.425
Seg
756
00:54:52.145 --> 00:54:55.365
Segwit list. So now we're just down to, basically, the kind of 1
757
00:54:55.825 --> 00:55:02.790
the the kind of unbounded list, but there's only 1 script script type rather than 3. And that's kind of where I am,
758
00:55:03.890 --> 00:55:11.695
trying to figure this entire thing thing out. I hope, you know, I kind of hope that that's help helpful for people to understand that these things are not
759
00:55:12.155 --> 00:55:12.655
necessarily
760
00:55:13.115 --> 00:55:16.335
easy to do. It's been one of the more challenging
761
00:55:16.715 --> 00:55:23.250
areas that I've been trying to work work on to try and figure it out. So, yeah, I hope that made some sense.
762
00:55:25.224 --> 00:55:26.505
763
00:55:28.585 --> 00:55:33.325
I appreciate you going through your thought process in terms of integrating it with Sparrow.
764
00:55:34.279 --> 00:55:35.019
I mean,
765
00:55:35.720 --> 00:55:36.779
from my understanding,
766
00:55:38.279 --> 00:55:39.900
a group of core developers,
767
00:55:41.160 --> 00:55:42.984
in the BIP 47vone
768
00:55:47.684 --> 00:55:50.265
said that they they don't think it should be implemented,
769
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:59.059
and that the main two arguments that I've heard or my understanding of them, my basic understanding of them is is the the first main argument is
770
00:55:59.565 --> 00:56:00.545
is that that notification
771
00:56:01.005 --> 00:56:03.905
transaction is an inefficient use of block space.
772
00:56:05.405 --> 00:56:09.490
We are streaming mempool pool dot space right now, a live view of mempool,
773
00:56:10.510 --> 00:56:11.570
of of mempools,
774
00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:17.494
at least their specific mempool, but I know my mempool also matches what they're showing right now.
775
00:56:18.675 --> 00:56:19.655
And, you know,
776
00:56:20.035 --> 00:56:21.895
we're sitting at Bitcoin at
777
00:56:22.250 --> 00:56:22.990
over $30,000.
778
00:56:24.650 --> 00:56:27.550
Adoption is supposedly higher than it's ever been, and,
779
00:56:28.410 --> 00:56:33.695
mempools are completely empty right now. So I don't think that block space is a very good argument
780
00:56:34.315 --> 00:56:36.175
against using it. And if anything,
781
00:56:38.234 --> 00:56:46.980
if bit 47 helps create a a fee market, then in the future, you know, you can have more efficient versions of it. And then the second thing was,
782
00:56:49.565 --> 00:56:51.825
you could have a I think they called it
783
00:56:52.125 --> 00:56:55.105
mystery shopper attack where someone sends,
784
00:56:56.290 --> 00:56:57.270
Bitcoin UTXOs
785
00:56:57.890 --> 00:56:58.630
to your,
786
00:57:00.369 --> 00:57:01.190
payment code
787
00:57:01.490 --> 00:57:03.510
and then tries to track those payments,
788
00:57:03.924 --> 00:57:14.060
which to me is just inherently an issue with accepting any Bitcoin payments publicly. I mean, if I on BTC pay server, that's the number one way that you would try and deanonymize
789
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:17.100
someone's BTC pay server if we're gonna go from
790
00:57:17.560 --> 00:57:21.740
a a framing of an activist or something in an authoritarian country,
791
00:57:23.215 --> 00:57:26.755
accepting Bitcoin donations through a public BTC pay server,
792
00:57:27.455 --> 00:57:29.555
I would expect their government to send
793
00:57:30.200 --> 00:57:31.259
Bitcoin donations,
794
00:57:31.960 --> 00:57:39.819
fake Bitcoin well, real Bitcoin, but but, you know, Bitcoin donations into that into that BTC pay server and then try and track
795
00:57:40.315 --> 00:57:42.095
you spending those and maybe
796
00:57:42.635 --> 00:57:46.015
watch for a user making mistake in terms of
797
00:57:48.029 --> 00:57:58.665
combining UTXOs after the fact and using the common in input ownership heuristic to to tell that if if if there's 2 inputs, 3 inputs in a transaction, they're probably all owned by the same person,
798
00:57:59.204 --> 00:58:02.665
which kinda goes hand in hand with what you said earlier, which is almost like,
799
00:58:05.260 --> 00:58:10.720
if you wanna implement this in a safe way, you need to have a full suite of tools. You need to have
800
00:58:11.505 --> 00:58:20.725
coin control with labeling where people can actually choose which UTXOs they spend and and keep track of them, and then collaborative transaction tools, whether that's
801
00:58:21.200 --> 00:58:23.779
uncoordinated 2 person coin joins, pay joins,
802
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:26.420
or
803
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.099
or or or coordinated coin joins, something like Whirlpool.
804
00:58:31.285 --> 00:58:33.065
So you you kinda need to have
805
00:58:33.445 --> 00:58:35.704
all the different basis, but even if you don't,
806
00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:45.350
do we agree that that, you know, receiving payments through a BIP 47 payment code is strictly better than
807
00:58:45.665 --> 00:58:51.205
than the status quo, which is probably just posting an address and reusing that address over and over again.
808
00:58:53.000 --> 00:58:55.260
809
00:58:55.880 --> 00:59:06.694
no doubt. Yeah. Look. I mean, I've I've seen, you know, people, you know, quote what the, you know, some people said way way back back when. I I I don't think it's really all that material.
810
00:59:07.795 --> 00:59:09.414
I I would hope that
811
00:59:10.050 --> 00:59:20.665
wallet devs today are not depending on the opinions of you know, that were said many years ago and are have probably been somewhat, you know, miss
812
00:59:21.045 --> 00:59:21.545
misquoted
813
00:59:21.845 --> 00:59:22.345
anyway.
814
00:59:23.045 --> 00:59:25.930
I think we should all just think for ourselves. And,
815
00:59:27.030 --> 00:59:30.329
I guess, my point of view is is just coming from,
816
00:59:30.630 --> 00:59:33.990
you know, let's actually try and build this thing and see what's
817
00:59:34.674 --> 00:59:38.454
you know, how how close we can get to actually doing doing so.
818
00:59:40.434 --> 00:59:40.934
So,
819
00:59:41.315 --> 00:59:53.405
yeah, I I I I I just kinda feel that Bitcoin Core gets quite a lot of flack for it, but it's really immaterial. It's you know, we should all just look at the spec, and if you wanna build it, build it.
820
00:59:53.865 --> 00:59:55.085
821
00:59:55.385 --> 00:59:59.885
822
01:00:01.770 --> 01:00:03.390
but there but there's definitely
823
01:00:03.770 --> 01:00:06.270
there's there's definitely validity in an argument
824
01:00:07.425 --> 01:00:10.645
that there is a small group of developers,
825
01:00:12.465 --> 01:00:25.805
that most people follow that other developers follow in terms of of what they should be prioritizing and what they should be working on. And and we we do as Bitcoiners fall into victim of of group think in that regard, like,
826
01:00:26.984 --> 01:00:29.085
almost level of appeal to authority.
827
01:00:29.785 --> 01:00:30.285
And
828
01:00:30.744 --> 01:00:38.800
and for better or worse, like, I think one of the most valuable aspects of Bitcoin is the culture around core development in terms of being ultraconservative.
829
01:00:39.980 --> 01:00:40.480
But,
830
01:00:41.660 --> 01:00:48.515
when we're looking at, you know I I I went on a a bit of a tirade on Twitter today. Like, when you're when you're looking at the reality
831
01:00:48.815 --> 01:00:49.315
of
832
01:00:49.775 --> 01:00:50.355
of Bitcoin
833
01:00:50.734 --> 01:00:51.474
right now,
834
01:00:52.619 --> 01:00:57.440
the overwhelming majority of people are using it in the least private way possible,
835
01:00:58.700 --> 01:01:07.745
which is custodial exchanges. And then the few that are actually removing themselves from custodial exchanges are constantly reusing addresses. They're not using their own node.
836
01:01:08.480 --> 01:01:11.140
So there's a lot of low hanging fruit that can be improved
837
01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:12.660
just by
838
01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:18.245
offering, you know, better, more user friendly tools to to users. Right? You
839
01:01:18.705 --> 01:01:19.205
know,
840
01:01:19.505 --> 01:01:25.285
my tirade specifically today was, like, the glass node charts that show, like, a they call it accumulation addresses,
841
01:01:25.780 --> 01:01:35.845
which are addresses that are constantly receiving Bitcoin and they're they're stacking. Right? And they the I've had people tag me and they're like, oh, Matt. Like, this is a chart showing everyone stacking sats.
842
01:01:36.145 --> 01:01:42.245
And it's like, no. This is a chart of people that don't listen to the show for the last 3 years and are still reusing addresses.
843
01:01:43.080 --> 01:01:43.580
And
844
01:01:43.960 --> 01:01:46.620
and to me, it's a bearish chart when we see,
845
01:01:47.080 --> 01:01:47.740
you know,
846
01:01:48.280 --> 01:01:50.860
600,000 addresses all reusing constantly.
847
01:01:54.585 --> 01:02:04.750
I'm curious what, I I wanna get to Quito, but before I get to Quito, Craig, like, how does Taproot addresses native Taproot addresses fall into your thought process here with BIP 47?
848
01:02:05.690 --> 01:02:08.655
849
01:02:10.735 --> 01:02:14.435
for you, but I'm I'm hoping that, the signature algorithms
850
01:02:14.975 --> 01:02:16.755
in there will make it easier
851
01:02:17.350 --> 01:02:18.890
to get this,
852
01:02:19.510 --> 01:02:21.690
this kind of key exchange done.
853
01:02:22.870 --> 01:02:29.105
And I I'm not deep enough into Taproot yet to be sure that that is the case, so I don't wanna say that it is.
854
01:02:29.405 --> 01:02:29.905
But,
855
01:02:30.445 --> 01:02:32.610
I believe that there might be some scope,
856
01:02:33.010 --> 01:02:38.070
in terms of the way the signing is done and the way the sig signatures
857
01:02:38.450 --> 01:02:41.350
are tweaked that, we might be able to
858
01:02:41.845 --> 01:02:42.345
get
859
01:02:42.805 --> 01:02:44.665
some some kind of easier
860
01:02:45.525 --> 01:02:47.385
and more hidden kind of
861
01:02:47.685 --> 01:02:54.760
methods there to be able able to do it. But, yeah, it's it's kind of one of those things that I still need to get my head more into.
862
01:02:55.540 --> 01:02:58.359
863
01:02:59.005 --> 01:03:04.545
just another set of addresses that you're gonna have to track. Right? That the wallet's gonna have to track, and the node's gonna have to track.
864
01:03:05.005 --> 01:03:07.744
865
01:03:08.205 --> 01:03:08.650
7 works?
866
01:03:09.770 --> 01:03:11.789
You know, I I think that the servers
867
01:03:12.089 --> 01:03:14.750
that we run are getting more powerful with time,
868
01:03:15.450 --> 01:03:20.405
and I'm sure Kito will have some ideas on this. He has to deal with this stuff all the time.
869
01:03:21.105 --> 01:03:22.244
But, you know,
870
01:03:24.305 --> 01:03:24.805
yeah,
871
01:03:25.480 --> 01:03:30.220
I I I guess we just kind of have to find a way to do it that,
872
01:03:31.160 --> 01:03:31.660
doesn't
873
01:03:32.200 --> 01:03:34.780
put too much load, for example, on the
874
01:03:35.285 --> 01:03:40.265
public service service service service that are being being run. We don't want those to fall
875
01:03:40.645 --> 01:03:42.665
over. We don't want people to
876
01:03:42.970 --> 01:03:44.349
kind of just have this,
877
01:03:45.289 --> 01:03:45.789
unbounded
878
01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:51.745
kind of list that just grows and grows, and eventually, their kind of home node will fall over.
879
01:03:52.045 --> 01:03:53.345
I don't think that that's,
880
01:03:54.445 --> 01:03:59.105
you know, gonna happen off the bat. I think it would take quite a while for that to actually
881
01:03:59.485 --> 01:04:04.160
occur, but it is still a concern that you have to at least think about it, the offset.
882
01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:08.960
883
01:04:09.545 --> 01:04:12.505
maybe if you're uncle Biming and you're you know, I got
884
01:04:13.464 --> 01:04:21.420
I mean, it'd be the most I mean, to me, it'd be the most bullish thing ever if I had, like, a 100 close friends and family using my note. Like, we're not even close to that, but,
885
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:29.605
I mean, if if I'm running Electris on a Nodle I mean, key to mind, let's get you in here. Like, if I'm running Eletris on,
886
01:04:30.885 --> 01:04:37.460
on a model and I'm using it with I'm using it, and I have, like, 5 or 10 family members, and they're all using it with BIP 47.
887
01:04:38.240 --> 01:04:40.579
Like, we're not even clear close to that,
888
01:04:41.520 --> 01:04:44.339
that overhead being a bottleneck for us. Right?
889
01:04:45.875 --> 01:04:48.215
890
01:04:48.675 --> 01:04:49.494
only running,
891
01:04:50.435 --> 01:04:52.055
a pretty heavy
892
01:04:52.810 --> 01:04:53.710
Electrum wallet,
893
01:04:54.570 --> 01:04:56.270
against Electrum server
894
01:04:56.570 --> 01:04:58.670
and running lightning at the same time,
895
01:04:59.450 --> 01:05:03.285
doesn't work when the when the mempool is heavy or stuff like that.
896
01:05:03.585 --> 01:05:06.485
So, yeah, I think I think anything track requiring
897
01:05:07.025 --> 01:05:08.805
constant tracking of transactions
898
01:05:09.185 --> 01:05:09.540
is
899
01:05:10.420 --> 01:05:14.040
is, is becoming a a bigger and bigger issue as time
900
01:05:14.660 --> 01:05:15.160
goes.
901
01:05:16.660 --> 01:05:18.600
There there are some solutions that
902
01:05:19.195 --> 01:05:20.735
seem to do it in a
903
01:05:21.595 --> 01:05:27.135
smoother way, like the MB Explorer library used by BTC pay server.
904
01:05:27.830 --> 01:05:30.550
That's a pretty good tracker. It's actually very lightweight, and,
905
01:05:31.110 --> 01:05:35.050
it it was built from the beginning to track thousands of addresses.
906
01:05:37.395 --> 01:05:37.975
So maybe
907
01:05:38.275 --> 01:05:42.455
the answer is something somewhere in between, like, some mid tracking middleware
908
01:05:43.075 --> 01:05:45.655
that wouldn't be a full electron server, but
909
01:05:46.180 --> 01:05:50.359
but would be interfaced with, with Bitcoin code only for tracking,
910
01:05:51.540 --> 01:05:53.000
transactions. I don't know.
911
01:05:59.335 --> 01:06:10.500
912
01:06:11.265 --> 01:06:19.925
know, both on the efficiency side of the of whatever you're running on your server, plus the efficiency side of of whatever is hitting the server. Right? Yep.
913
01:06:21.880 --> 01:06:29.980
914
01:06:31.425 --> 01:06:38.930
the the best thing you can do is to do it in the most efficient way. And, yeah, I I guess, like, from a purely
915
01:06:39.710 --> 01:06:40.770
server overhead,
916
01:06:41.630 --> 01:06:42.530
point of view,
917
01:06:42.830 --> 01:06:48.214
having a BTC pay server for donations is probably lighter than running your own bit 47
918
01:06:48.515 --> 01:06:49.015
server.
919
01:06:50.835 --> 01:06:51.875
920
01:06:53.315 --> 01:06:55.494
so so with Samurais implementation,
921
01:06:56.140 --> 01:06:56.880
they have a,
922
01:07:00.460 --> 01:07:03.840
they have a shorter code. They have so you have your payment code,
923
01:07:04.265 --> 01:07:14.299
and then your payment code is just reliant on your own node, and then they have a shorter code that's like a username lookup, a randomly generated username, which is the pay name.
924
01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:17.180
And they manage that server,
925
01:07:17.640 --> 01:07:20.539
but that's just a lookup for your payment code. Right?
926
01:07:21.055 --> 01:07:22.115
927
01:07:23.775 --> 01:07:25.135
928
01:07:26.095 --> 01:07:27.635
when you're using BIP 47
929
01:07:27.935 --> 01:07:29.715
with SAMURAI with your own dojo,
930
01:07:30.950 --> 01:07:35.210
you're running your own BIP 47 server. You're running your own payment code server.
931
01:07:37.244 --> 01:07:45.984
932
01:07:46.760 --> 01:07:48.540
you know, we all just kind of need to,
933
01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:59.915
understand understand that it's it's not a hill that can't be climbed. You know? It's it's just, we need to kind of try and figure out the ways to do it. I'd be really interested to know how
934
01:08:00.295 --> 01:08:02.555
they are implementing version 3.
935
01:08:03.390 --> 01:08:12.050
Hopefully, I can ask them a little bit more more about that because that's kind of the biggest barrier to me right now is, you know, how do we get past this need to
936
01:08:12.485 --> 01:08:13.385
to not only,
937
01:08:14.165 --> 01:08:26.560
scan for lots of add addresses, but to actually scan within that particular output script and to find a particular key within an up output script. Because as I say, Bitcoin Core, you can't do that today.
938
01:08:27.020 --> 01:08:36.145
Electrum server, you basically create a script hash, which is you basically just hash the output script. So, you know, you can't do that with just part of it.
939
01:08:37.165 --> 01:08:39.425
So, you know, how they're doing that,
940
01:08:40.650 --> 01:08:42.110
I presume it's using
941
01:08:42.810 --> 01:08:45.550
the the sort of compact block filters. But
942
01:08:46.855 --> 01:08:49.115
if those haven't been built into core,
943
01:08:50.135 --> 01:08:53.035
you know, I'm I'm not super familiar with,
944
01:08:53.575 --> 01:08:58.219
how many people have turned compact dot filters on when they install their node.
945
01:08:58.679 --> 01:09:01.420
Is that a default set of setting? I don't think it is.
946
01:09:01.880 --> 01:09:04.620
And if so, this particular enhancement
947
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:09.324
that the author of BIP 47 has put forward, like, is that supported?
948
01:09:10.585 --> 01:09:13.545
Though, that's kind of where I am, I guess, with my
949
01:09:14.350 --> 01:09:17.090
so, you know, I'm sure I'm gonna make it very soon.
950
01:09:17.869 --> 01:09:23.170
951
01:09:23.724 --> 01:09:24.385
you started
952
01:09:24.925 --> 01:09:25.905
it with Noddle
953
01:09:26.605 --> 01:09:29.344
before they implemented it, but Dojo now,
954
01:09:29.645 --> 01:09:30.864
they they're not using
955
01:09:31.180 --> 01:09:36.640
filters at all. They're not using block filters at all. It's it's Elektris. They're running Elektris if you run Dojo.
956
01:09:37.580 --> 01:09:42.545
957
01:09:45.005 --> 01:09:55.610
Okay. Yeah. And just to to answer, Craig, yeah, so compact filters are not enabled by default indeed, and they are pretty recent in the mainstream core. They were in not
958
01:09:56.574 --> 01:09:58.655
in, Luke's fork, and,
959
01:09:59.534 --> 01:10:01.155
I think they were
960
01:10:01.614 --> 01:10:05.554
merged finally in, in the mainstream core in 0 21.
961
01:10:06.080 --> 01:10:09.440
962
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:14.020
for Wasabi, and then Wasabi implemented knots as built in package,
963
01:10:14.480 --> 01:10:15.300
for Wasabi,
964
01:10:16.165 --> 01:10:23.880
965
01:10:24.440 --> 01:10:28.060
because we are we are running the tree now with our own private servers.
966
01:10:29.560 --> 01:10:30.300
967
01:10:30.840 --> 01:10:31.340
So,
968
01:10:32.515 --> 01:10:34.695
yeah. So, I mean, look, everything has trade offs.
969
01:10:38.115 --> 01:10:38.775
You know,
970
01:10:40.110 --> 01:10:43.650
just to go back, like, one of the things I mentioned is is one of the
971
01:10:44.430 --> 01:10:48.045
the most valuable aspects of Bitcoin to me is this culture at
972
01:10:48.605 --> 01:10:51.425
among core development to be as conservative as possible.
973
01:10:52.045 --> 01:10:55.585
But we don't have that same culture with Lightning, and I I think
974
01:10:56.205 --> 01:10:57.824
that's probably for the better.
975
01:10:59.869 --> 01:11:06.210
It's a it's a a quicker development process, with different trade offs set up, but the result is
976
01:11:06.985 --> 01:11:08.765
that a lot of the negatives
977
01:11:09.145 --> 01:11:12.445
that people have mentioned about these on chain aspects,
978
01:11:13.065 --> 01:11:15.150
a perfect example is, that
979
01:11:15.469 --> 01:11:18.210
that that change during the BIP 47,
980
01:11:18.909 --> 01:11:19.409
notification
981
01:11:19.710 --> 01:11:23.650
process that you say Craig needs to be coin joined, which it should be,
982
01:11:24.765 --> 01:11:29.345
are trade offs that are made every day by every Lightning user. I mean, I I just saw
983
01:11:31.630 --> 01:11:32.530
nifty nay,
984
01:11:33.230 --> 01:11:35.329
c lightning developer with Blockstream,
985
01:11:36.510 --> 01:11:38.929
on the mailing list saying that every UTXO
986
01:11:39.230 --> 01:11:43.255
that you connect to a Lightning node should be coin joined first.
987
01:11:44.035 --> 01:11:46.855
So these are trade offs that they're actively making.
988
01:11:48.270 --> 01:11:55.170
So to me, to have on chain tools that are making similar trade offs isn't the end of the world. There it's better to have those in our tool set.
989
01:11:56.005 --> 01:11:57.145
We have IFH
990
01:11:57.445 --> 01:12:03.865
in, the live chat asking what is the easiest way for someone to accept lightning donations in a static way,
991
01:12:05.610 --> 01:12:10.110
and you basically have 2 options right now. You you either can use lnbits
992
01:12:10.650 --> 01:12:12.030
to create an ln URL,
993
01:12:13.035 --> 01:12:14.175
with your own node,
994
01:12:14.955 --> 01:12:20.335
or you can use ln transaction bot. We had Fiat Jeff on the show
995
01:12:20.635 --> 01:12:21.855
a couple weeks ago,
996
01:12:22.550 --> 01:12:23.849
maybe over a month ago,
997
01:12:24.710 --> 01:12:32.010
who's the maintainer of that. That is custodial. Right? And that's another trade off you're making. You're trusting him with your privacy and your funds. But if you're
998
01:12:44.020 --> 01:12:45.720
rather than focusing on perfect,
999
01:12:46.660 --> 01:12:48.760
when it comes to user focused tools,
1000
01:12:49.805 --> 01:12:59.660
not the protocol. The protocol, I understand that we should be as conservative as possible. But when it comes to actually user tools, it's good to have many different options with different trade offs. I I think,
1001
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:08.665
people will use those, and it's it's super helpful. But ifh, to be clear, that static l n URL is what I have in the bottom left hand corner,
1002
01:13:09.065 --> 01:13:14.445
that QR code. So if you scan that QR code with supporting wallets, unfortunately, not all lightning wallets support it,
1003
01:13:14.985 --> 01:13:23.060
but if you scan that with a supporting wallet, it'll allow you to pay whatever you wanna pay, and you can also include a memo, which is really cool. I have people donate to the show,
1004
01:13:24.015 --> 01:13:26.995
and they give me feedback in their donation. So,
1005
01:13:27.855 --> 01:13:31.650
I I take your feedback more seriously if your donation's higher. I'm
1006
01:13:32.030 --> 01:13:32.110
just
1007
01:13:33.550 --> 01:13:34.050
but,
1008
01:13:34.590 --> 01:13:35.810
yeah. So that's cool.
1009
01:13:36.350 --> 01:13:37.650
Okay. So BIP 47,
1010
01:13:38.495 --> 01:13:44.195
Sparrow's gonna implement it soon. He's just, Craig's just working on the specifics. Right, Craig? Absolutely,
1011
01:13:44.495 --> 01:13:44.995
1012
01:13:45.510 --> 01:13:48.490
1013
01:13:48.950 --> 01:13:49.450
because,
1014
01:13:49.830 --> 01:13:52.970
you can't implement BIP 47 unless you have,
1015
01:13:53.845 --> 01:13:55.945
some kind of collaborative transaction tools.
1016
01:13:59.445 --> 01:14:04.699
What is what what do you wanna focus on with Whirlpool here? I mean, you put it on the docket to discuss.
1017
01:14:05.400 --> 01:14:10.305
1018
01:14:10.865 --> 01:14:13.365
do people kind of view it as
1019
01:14:14.145 --> 01:14:16.725
as winning the CoinJoin implementation?
1020
01:14:17.825 --> 01:14:18.400
Is is
1021
01:14:19.120 --> 01:14:26.659
that an idea that makes any sense? Because, you know, one of the things that I really like about it is the fact that you can see the amount of unspent
1022
01:14:27.525 --> 01:14:28.025
capacity.
1023
01:14:28.885 --> 01:14:33.065
Now before the show, I was trying to find the same kind of figure for joint market,
1024
01:14:33.765 --> 01:14:34.665
and for Wasabi,
1025
01:14:35.125 --> 01:14:36.185
and I I couldn't.
1026
01:14:37.230 --> 01:14:42.690
I don't know if they if it's just that my skills weren't enough to figure that thing out.
1027
01:14:43.710 --> 01:14:45.665
But, you know, over 3,000
1028
01:14:46.125 --> 01:14:47.325
Bitcoin in an
1029
01:14:49.325 --> 01:14:51.185
in in in sort of un unspent
1030
01:14:53.520 --> 01:14:54.980
capacity is pretty good.
1031
01:14:56.320 --> 01:15:02.260
And it it just it just kind of seems to me that they have figured out the incentive model,
1032
01:15:03.324 --> 01:15:06.625
behind this in a way that the other implementations
1033
01:15:07.565 --> 01:15:08.465
haven't necessarily,
1034
01:15:09.005 --> 01:15:10.065
you know, done.
1035
01:15:10.764 --> 01:15:12.065
What do you guys think?
1036
01:15:13.030 --> 01:15:14.010
1037
01:15:14.949 --> 01:15:18.730
obviously, this is a topic that I've been pretty focused on.
1038
01:15:20.485 --> 01:15:24.105
I mean, you you can look up stats for the other CoinJoin implementations.
1039
01:15:26.005 --> 01:15:28.265
If you go to if you go to whirlpoolstats.com,
1040
01:15:30.679 --> 01:15:31.260
it redirects
1041
01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:33.100
to attyperboles,
1042
01:15:33.960 --> 01:15:34.940
tracking website,
1043
01:15:35.400 --> 01:15:37.525
and he tracks Whirlpool volume,
1044
01:15:38.085 --> 01:15:40.585
joint market volume, and Wasabi volume.
1045
01:15:42.885 --> 01:15:49.280
There it's really apples and oranges. You can't really compare Whirlpool on spent capacity to these other volume numbers,
1046
01:15:51.180 --> 01:15:52.560
and the reason is
1047
01:15:53.260 --> 01:15:54.080
is because
1048
01:15:55.375 --> 01:15:57.795
the way Samurais set up their CoinJoin implementation
1049
01:15:58.175 --> 01:16:04.660
is they've set it up so that you have this structured liquidity pool, and that's what this unspent capacity pool is.
1050
01:16:05.140 --> 01:16:10.840
And the cool part about that is it it feels like a tangible goal that we can work towards
1051
01:16:11.620 --> 01:16:13.400
increasing that liquidity pool.
1052
01:16:13.940 --> 01:16:14.440
And
1053
01:16:14.805 --> 01:16:18.665
and the the difference is is is when you when you use something like Whirlpool,
1054
01:16:20.165 --> 01:16:21.305
when you use Whirlpool,
1055
01:16:22.620 --> 01:16:23.120
the
1056
01:16:23.500 --> 01:16:25.680
the way their Sybil mechanism works
1057
01:16:26.140 --> 01:16:33.675
is you pay less fees the more money you send in at a given time, and that's that transaction 0. When you send in the transaction 0,
1058
01:16:34.055 --> 01:16:37.835
your fees are flat based on which pool you decide to join.
1059
01:16:39.430 --> 01:16:40.730
And then those
1060
01:16:41.670 --> 01:16:42.570
those transactions,
1061
01:16:43.030 --> 01:16:48.135
if if, let's say, you're going let's say, you're going into the million sat pool in Whirlpool,
1062
01:16:48.675 --> 01:16:54.855
and you go in with 5,000,000 sats or a little bit over 5,000,000 sats, because you have to pay the Whirlpool fee. So
1063
01:16:55.260 --> 01:16:58.620
you go in with a little bit over than 5,000,000 SaaS, you're gonna have
1064
01:17:00.060 --> 01:17:03.520
7 UTXOs are gonna get created. You're gonna have
1065
01:17:04.155 --> 01:17:04.655
5,000,000,
1066
01:17:05.915 --> 01:17:07.375
you're gonna you're gonna have
1067
01:17:07.995 --> 01:17:11.054
5, 1,000,000 SAT UTXOs going into Whirlpool.
1068
01:17:11.480 --> 01:17:12.860
You're gonna have 1 UTXO
1069
01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:20.380
that is paying your Whirlpool fee to the samurai developers, and then you're gonna have 1 UTXO, which is your change output, which is underneath.
1070
01:17:20.775 --> 01:17:25.195
It's it's it's whatever is left over that couldn't fit into that 1,000,000 sat denomination.
1071
01:17:26.215 --> 01:17:30.900
And then those 5 UTXO's are going into 5 different rounds of CoinJoin.
1072
01:17:31.360 --> 01:17:36.820
They're not in the same round. None of them are allowed to be in the same round, and that's that Sybil mechanism involved.
1073
01:17:37.785 --> 01:17:40.364
Then once you've entered this coin joint pool,
1074
01:17:41.225 --> 01:17:43.645
it sits in there, and as long as you're running,
1075
01:17:44.665 --> 01:17:45.165
Whirlpool,
1076
01:17:46.020 --> 01:17:50.600
which you can run 247 very easily with Noddle or Ronin Dojo or Umbrel,
1077
01:17:53.994 --> 01:18:01.140
they will constantly provide remix. They'll constantly be remixing in that pool to any new users who join that pool,
1078
01:18:01.540 --> 01:18:06.040
And the idea is to try and interconnect all those mixes. Every single round
1079
01:18:06.660 --> 01:18:07.160
has
1080
01:18:07.700 --> 01:18:12.804
can be traced on the blockchain all the way back to the 1st Whirlpool mix that ever happened,
1081
01:18:13.105 --> 01:18:18.409
and they should be able to go forward from that point as long as at least one person,
1082
01:18:19.030 --> 01:18:23.530
one participant out of those 5 UTXOs that are in each round
1083
01:18:23.935 --> 01:18:26.275
goes on to another round. So even if you don't,
1084
01:18:28.015 --> 01:18:34.820
ideally, you should be actively keeping Whirlpool on, but even if you don't, as long as other participants in your round are constantly
1085
01:18:36.000 --> 01:18:38.420
in Whirlpool and constantly providing liquidity,
1086
01:18:40.455 --> 01:18:43.435
the the probability of which UTXO is yours
1087
01:18:43.975 --> 01:18:50.130
grows with the set. Right? Like, you're you're intermixed into the set. And it's this idea of creating this, like, structured liquidity
1088
01:18:50.830 --> 01:18:51.730
pool that is
1089
01:18:53.390 --> 01:19:03.455
provides as much privacy as possible for a new user who just comes in and maybe only does one round. Like, they should really be doing more rounds, but if they just do one round, like, they should have, you know,
1090
01:19:04.715 --> 01:19:15.050
a a lower, like, a a harder chance, a harder probability, a lower probability of guessing which UTX dose is theirs when they come out because it's connected to the previous mixes and the future mixes.
1091
01:19:16.135 --> 01:19:23.515
So it feels like a tangible goal of something we can work towards, and it and and the result there is as more users are entering the system,
1092
01:19:24.409 --> 01:19:25.150
over time,
1093
01:19:26.170 --> 01:19:33.869
your anonymity set shouldn't degrade. This idea of you're one of a 1000 people or one of 2 1000 people or 1 of 4000 people
1094
01:19:35.275 --> 01:19:36.655
in these other implementations,
1095
01:19:37.915 --> 01:19:42.255
specifically Wasabi, your an anonymity set tends to degrade over time. So
1096
01:19:42.580 --> 01:19:47.160
if you do, like, a round and and you're in Wasabi and you do around 70 people,
1097
01:19:48.179 --> 01:20:03.380
and 65 of those people end up sending to a KYC exchange or combining their outputs afterwards and then sending to a KYC exchange or whatever, doxing their their coins in some way, your anonymity set is being ruined over time, and you don't even realize.
1098
01:20:05.120 --> 01:20:12.165
So this idea of the unspent capacity is a very cool metric to me. It's also a metric that can't be easily gained,
1099
01:20:13.665 --> 01:20:14.165
because
1100
01:20:15.105 --> 01:20:17.685
every UTXO in that unspent capacity
1101
01:20:20.300 --> 01:20:24.800
calculation is something that's sitting there in post Whirlpool. You can't then recycle
1102
01:20:25.180 --> 01:20:29.975
you can't recycle it back through and get counted twice. But if you're going at just,
1103
01:20:31.875 --> 01:20:34.455
if you're going at just naive volume numbers,
1104
01:20:35.560 --> 01:20:37.260
you can recycle UTXOs
1105
01:20:37.719 --> 01:20:38.460
and just
1106
01:20:39.320 --> 01:20:42.300
keep sending them back in. And that that will cost you money,
1107
01:20:43.320 --> 01:20:44.620
but if you are
1108
01:20:47.315 --> 01:20:53.095
the the coordinated coin joints like, if if you're the one running the coordinated coin joints, in this case, Wasabi,
1109
01:20:53.530 --> 01:21:00.030
Wasabi doesn't have to pay that coin joint fee. So so I'm not accusing them of doing it, but I'm just saying that you you basically,
1110
01:21:01.195 --> 01:21:03.455
with without that unspent capacity metric,
1111
01:21:03.995 --> 01:21:08.495
if you're looking at just pure wasabi volumes, you're trusting that they're not
1112
01:21:09.290 --> 01:21:11.710
constantly recycling volume through
1113
01:21:12.170 --> 01:21:15.950
their coin joints. Right? Because the unspent capacity is literally
1114
01:21:17.054 --> 01:21:18.835
transactions that are sitting there
1115
01:21:19.855 --> 01:21:20.355
in
1116
01:21:20.895 --> 01:21:24.034
in post Whirlpool UTXO. So so so, yes,
1117
01:21:24.730 --> 01:21:33.150
the samurai devs could be inflating that number with their own UTXOs, but they can only do it once. They can't constantly recycle it to increase
1118
01:21:33.844 --> 01:21:35.304
can increase that number.
1119
01:21:36.005 --> 01:21:47.619
So to me, the unspent capacity is a very tangible number. It's a harder to gain number, and it's something that we've been very focused on at the on on rabbit hole recap. We talk about it every the beginning of every episode.
1120
01:21:49.625 --> 01:21:50.685
On top of that,
1121
01:21:52.505 --> 01:21:55.645
what's cool about Whirlpool is it was made from the get go.
1122
01:21:56.200 --> 01:21:59.180
It was built from the get go to share that
1123
01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:01.500
liquidity pool with other
1124
01:22:03.614 --> 01:22:07.155
wallet developers, and and the reason for that is because
1125
01:22:08.494 --> 01:22:12.510
we don't have many people using CoinJoin period right now. Like, I
1126
01:22:12.889 --> 01:22:14.670
one of the biggest promoters of CoinJoin,
1127
01:22:16.010 --> 01:22:20.590
there's no way for me to tell exactly how many people are using CoinJoin, but across the three implementations,
1128
01:22:22.155 --> 01:22:25.055
I I can safely say that's less than 10,000 people.
1129
01:22:25.595 --> 01:22:27.855
Right? It's not that many people are using CoinJoin,
1130
01:22:28.770 --> 01:22:34.469
and it's further split between those three implementations. Some people are using join market. Some people are using Wasabi.
1131
01:22:35.010 --> 01:22:36.230
Some people are using,
1132
01:22:37.170 --> 01:22:37.670
Whirlpool,
1133
01:22:38.325 --> 01:22:42.985
And so that small anonymity set that we already have of 10,000 people,
1134
01:22:44.005 --> 01:22:45.625
or less than 10,000 people,
1135
01:22:46.270 --> 01:22:52.290
is further split. So the individual privacy you get of any of the individual tools is is reduced.
1136
01:22:53.545 --> 01:22:56.445
So what we wanna see is we want to see CoinJoin
1137
01:22:57.385 --> 01:22:58.764
get added to every wallet,
1138
01:22:59.304 --> 01:23:03.600
and we want to see them sharing liquidity pools would be the ideal. And just to be clear
1139
01:23:04.300 --> 01:23:07.680
to listeners who are watching the livestream, the reason the live chat
1140
01:23:08.140 --> 01:23:18.725
just got erased was because there was some scammer who posted something. So I I deleted the live chat, blocked him, and then re popped it up just to let you know. The so where I'm getting at here is
1141
01:23:19.890 --> 01:23:24.790
they set up Whirlpool in a way that if you integrate it into Sparrow Wallet,
1142
01:23:25.970 --> 01:23:28.710
they will give you a cut of all fees that come in
1143
01:23:29.284 --> 01:23:29.945
through Sparrow,
1144
01:23:31.764 --> 01:23:44.320
so you can monetize your wallet in a ethical way without adding fiat, onramps, or what other elements that Bitcoin wallets or ads that Bitcoin or or tracking that Bitcoin wallets add to try and monetize.
1145
01:23:46.345 --> 01:23:49.325
So you can monetize your wallet while providing your users
1146
01:23:50.585 --> 01:23:51.485
better privacy,
1147
01:23:52.105 --> 01:23:54.525
and the main negative that people have against
1148
01:23:55.490 --> 01:23:57.030
Whirlpool is that
1149
01:23:58.450 --> 01:24:01.270
you can use it without your own node, and in that case,
1150
01:24:02.050 --> 01:24:04.150
samurai knows your XPUBs.
1151
01:24:04.465 --> 01:24:07.925
They don't know your IP address because it defaults to Tor, but they know your XPUBs.
1152
01:24:08.705 --> 01:24:09.844
And if there's a subset
1153
01:24:10.304 --> 01:24:12.005
if there's a majority of people
1154
01:24:12.380 --> 01:24:16.320
that are using it without their own node, then samurai can reverse construct
1155
01:24:17.500 --> 01:24:22.159
and and remove that anonymity set that you think you have that you don't because
1156
01:24:22.495 --> 01:24:23.235
they know
1157
01:24:23.535 --> 01:24:24.435
all the different,
1158
01:24:25.055 --> 01:24:27.155
addresses of the non node users.
1159
01:24:27.614 --> 01:24:28.355
But if
1160
01:24:29.055 --> 01:24:30.675
Sparrow Wallet adds it
1161
01:24:31.079 --> 01:24:36.219
and Blue Wallet adds it, and Ledger adds it, and all these different wallets add it,
1162
01:24:38.495 --> 01:24:47.315
Maybe not all users will use their own node, but because there'll be different nodes that are being used by the light users,
1163
01:24:47.920 --> 01:24:52.559
it splits up that threshold of the amount of people that are using it. So it it makes
1164
01:24:55.015 --> 01:25:01.195
not only does it increase the overall usage and anonymity set of all Whirlpool users, it also removes,
1165
01:25:02.530 --> 01:25:10.150
it mitigates that main concern that a lot of people have that you have these light client users that are are trusting samurai with their
1166
01:25:10.925 --> 01:25:14.385
with their address history. Does does any of this make sense that I've
1167
01:25:15.405 --> 01:25:16.705
been talking for a while?
1168
01:25:19.219 --> 01:25:21.940
1169
01:25:22.420 --> 01:25:25.239
Certainly got got a lot from the front from that,
1170
01:25:26.485 --> 01:25:28.344
I'm definitely looking at Whirlpool.
1171
01:25:29.605 --> 01:25:30.344
You know,
1172
01:25:30.645 --> 01:25:32.505
it's, I think, becoming
1173
01:25:32.885 --> 01:25:34.665
clear to me at least that
1174
01:25:36.280 --> 01:25:39.660
it's it's, you know, it's certainly the most recommended
1175
01:25:40.120 --> 01:25:41.740
CoinJoin that I'm seeing,
1176
01:25:42.440 --> 01:25:44.565
you know, just kind of out there.
1177
01:25:45.265 --> 01:25:48.325
And I I think there's a lot to be said for,
1178
01:25:48.864 --> 01:25:50.085
you know, the highest
1179
01:25:50.625 --> 01:25:58.100
the highest kind of, you know, the the credit credit credit credibility pool providing them the the the largest anonymity
1180
01:25:58.720 --> 01:25:59.220
sets.
1181
01:25:59.895 --> 01:26:03.434
So that that kind of makes a lot of sense. But as I was saying earlier,
1182
01:26:03.735 --> 01:26:09.195
what I really like about it is the fact that the incentives have been chosen. You know, just for example,
1183
01:26:10.160 --> 01:26:13.460
having a flat fee to enter a pool obviously incentivizes
1184
01:26:13.840 --> 01:26:15.140
you to increase
1185
01:26:15.600 --> 01:26:24.665
the amount of Bitcoin that you're gonna mix because, you know, you're always looking at the ratio between the fee that you spend to the amount that you mix. And if the the fee is flat,
1186
01:26:24.965 --> 01:26:31.420
then you obviously say, well, great. I'm just going to, you know, mix as much as I can. So that that those kind of clever
1187
01:26:32.200 --> 01:26:32.700
choices,
1188
01:26:33.800 --> 01:26:36.140
make a lot of sense to me. I think,
1189
01:26:36.655 --> 01:26:41.555
and I I kind of wanna get in into this, as we get further into the chat, but, really,
1190
01:26:42.175 --> 01:26:43.430
privacy only works
1191
01:26:43.910 --> 01:26:46.170
when it has, I think, additional,
1192
01:26:46.630 --> 01:26:48.010
you know, kind of incentives
1193
01:26:48.550 --> 01:26:52.605
or it's built in a clever way so that you feel like you're winning when you do it.
1194
01:26:53.805 --> 01:26:56.065
There's there's some something about that.
1195
01:26:57.165 --> 01:26:59.425
You know, as much as we would like to believe
1196
01:27:00.020 --> 01:27:02.760
that everyone wants to be private for its own sake,
1197
01:27:03.380 --> 01:27:08.520
I think that it only really works when it kind of almost becomes part of a bigger package.
1198
01:27:09.545 --> 01:27:10.425
And I just think
1199
01:27:10.905 --> 01:27:11.405
100%.
1200
01:27:11.945 --> 01:27:12.445
Yep.
1201
01:27:12.825 --> 01:27:13.325
1202
01:27:13.705 --> 01:27:16.745
are everything. And and just to be clear on the
1203
01:27:17.640 --> 01:27:19.179
in terms of providing liquidity,
1204
01:27:20.360 --> 01:27:21.179
join market,
1205
01:27:22.040 --> 01:27:25.315
you know, nailed the incentive structure for the makers,
1206
01:27:25.715 --> 01:27:29.015
in in terms of of the people who are providing liquidity,
1207
01:27:30.915 --> 01:27:34.375
because you can actually get paid to run join market 247.
1208
01:27:35.870 --> 01:27:43.010
With with Samurai, you get basically paid in privacy because your your privacy increases the more your liquidity is sitting in there.
1209
01:27:44.405 --> 01:27:45.305
I would argue
1210
01:27:45.685 --> 01:27:50.105
that the incentive on the taker side is almost more important because,
1211
01:27:50.965 --> 01:27:57.070
with join market, what we saw is we we do have a dedicated, you know, sub thousand group of makers
1212
01:27:57.610 --> 01:28:01.550
that are constantly providing liquidity because both idealistic reasons
1213
01:28:02.445 --> 01:28:04.545
and because they can make some money off of it.
1214
01:28:06.125 --> 01:28:10.465
But if we wanna if we wanna get that total coin joined user number,
1215
01:28:11.390 --> 01:28:16.130
you know, above 10,000, if we wanna get it to 50,000 to a 100,000 people,
1216
01:28:16.830 --> 01:28:19.250
you have to make it as accessible as possible
1217
01:28:19.550 --> 01:28:20.050
for
1218
01:28:22.555 --> 01:28:29.695
the average user who's who's not gonna be a maker. He's a guy who comes in as a as a taker and and just wants to, you know,
1219
01:28:30.090 --> 01:28:33.950
pay a little bit of Bitcoin and and get better privacy as a result.
1220
01:28:34.890 --> 01:28:37.770
So the incentives are very important, but also how you
1221
01:28:39.005 --> 01:28:43.965
who those incentives are focused on are are extra important, and I I I think
1222
01:28:45.780 --> 01:28:46.680
yeah. I
1223
01:28:47.140 --> 01:28:51.720
it's it's it's definitely it's definitely a in a very nuanced topic.
1224
01:28:54.804 --> 01:28:57.225
I wouldn't I wouldn't go as far as saying
1225
01:28:58.244 --> 01:28:58.725
that,
1226
01:29:00.244 --> 01:29:04.880
the liquidity pool of of Samurai is is the largest.
1227
01:29:07.020 --> 01:29:09.920
Naive raw numbers would would say that
1228
01:29:12.685 --> 01:29:14.625
wasabi is larger, but like I said,
1229
01:29:15.085 --> 01:29:17.344
the the the liquidity pool
1230
01:29:17.965 --> 01:29:18.705
is not
1231
01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:25.460
is not structured well. It's not a strong foundation that Wasabi is built on top of.
1232
01:29:27.005 --> 01:29:30.784
There's all these different little aspects of the way their implementation works
1233
01:29:31.165 --> 01:29:46.724
that doesn't incentivize remixing. You have to pay a fee constantly if you're if you're remixing. You you you get to choose which rounds you participate in, which makes it cheaper for a civil attacker. A civil attacker pays the same fees that are that a, quote, unquote, good user or
1234
01:29:47.105 --> 01:29:48.645
a benevolent actor pays.
1235
01:29:49.344 --> 01:29:50.965
So it's not as civil resistant.
1236
01:29:51.585 --> 01:29:54.324
And then on top of that, with both of these coordinated
1237
01:29:54.840 --> 01:29:57.580
CoinJoin implementations, you don't have civil resistance,
1238
01:29:59.080 --> 01:30:06.824
from the actual coordinator because the main civil resistance, especially in this today's fee market, which we're looking at mempool dot space right now, which is just
1239
01:30:07.205 --> 01:30:09.625
one sat per byte, you get into the next block.
1240
01:30:10.310 --> 01:30:19.725
The main civil resistance is the actual coin joint fee, which is paid to the coordinator themselves. So in Samurai's case, it's paid to Samurai, and Wasabi's case is paid to
1241
01:30:20.445 --> 01:30:20.765
Wasabi.
1242
01:30:21.325 --> 01:30:27.105
And both of those coordinators could could, you know, flood rounds at minimal cost to themselves,
1243
01:30:27.990 --> 01:30:29.930
except for the minor fees. And if
1244
01:30:30.950 --> 01:30:34.730
if if I'm correct in that the fee market will increase, then
1245
01:30:35.435 --> 01:30:42.655
then that becomes less of an issue because you have the civil resistance of the actual transaction fees. We just haven't gone in there and, you know,
1246
01:30:43.390 --> 01:30:47.010
whatever. I've been eating crow about the people give me shit about
1247
01:30:47.630 --> 01:30:51.655
the 200 k price call, but the big one for me is the mem pool. Like, I mem
1248
01:30:52.114 --> 01:30:57.235
pools. Like, I just I did not expect that we were gonna get 1 sat per byte right now in this
1249
01:30:58.260 --> 01:30:59.000
in 2021,
1250
01:31:02.020 --> 01:31:14.645
especially amid a minor alleged minor crackdown in China where hash rates down a shit ton, and you can just get confirmed to 1 separate byte. But I I I think I think what Samura is building in terms of the Whirlpool implementation
1251
01:31:15.440 --> 01:31:17.380
is just a really, really strong foundation
1252
01:31:18.320 --> 01:31:25.565
that we can work off of, that is really, really good on chain properties when you look at how it looks on chain,
1253
01:31:26.665 --> 01:31:28.605
and the defaults that they have set.
1254
01:31:29.625 --> 01:31:30.445
And I
1255
01:31:31.520 --> 01:31:32.739
I feel good
1256
01:31:33.280 --> 01:31:37.620
trying to increase that liquidity. And I think the next step is we need more wallets
1257
01:31:38.115 --> 01:31:41.255
to basically integrate Whirlpool. And that's what I've been trying to,
1258
01:31:42.275 --> 01:31:43.975
facilitate behind the scenes,
1259
01:31:44.515 --> 01:31:51.340
and I hope that we'll see some more wallets do it specifically. I mean, Sparrow would be absolutely fantastic, you know, one of the best in class
1260
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:56.985
desktop wallets, but I would love to see an iPhone wallet added as well because I I think that's a,
1261
01:31:58.105 --> 01:32:01.485
you know, I mean, there's just a lot of pick corners that use iPhones. So
1262
01:32:01.945 --> 01:32:02.925
for better or worse.
1263
01:32:03.465 --> 01:32:07.610
1264
01:32:08.230 --> 01:32:12.010
and let's assume that all these wallets integrate against against it,
1265
01:32:12.390 --> 01:32:13.290
are we not
1266
01:32:22.650 --> 01:32:23.310
server endpoint.
1267
01:32:24.090 --> 01:32:25.390
Does that make any sense?
1268
01:32:26.010 --> 01:32:28.110
1269
01:32:28.890 --> 01:32:30.670
There's the samurai wallet
1270
01:32:31.125 --> 01:32:35.945
tracking server, which is for samurai wallet users that are not using their own node,
1271
01:32:38.560 --> 01:32:43.060
which is, like, what whatever their modified version of Electris is or whatever they're running.
1272
01:32:44.240 --> 01:32:46.660
And then there's a separate Whirlpool server.
1273
01:32:49.245 --> 01:32:49.745
We
1274
01:32:50.605 --> 01:32:53.345
if if we have more wallets using Whirlpool,
1275
01:32:54.360 --> 01:32:59.980
then we are creating a central point of failure on the Whirlpool server in terms of uptime,
1276
01:33:01.640 --> 01:33:03.660
but that Whirlpool server is blinded,
1277
01:33:04.344 --> 01:33:06.685
so the Whirlpool server doesn't have any
1278
01:33:07.465 --> 01:33:10.765
there's no there's no privacy risk with that Whirlpool server.
1279
01:33:12.380 --> 01:33:15.440
Every time you connect to it, you connect to it with a new Tor identity.
1280
01:33:16.380 --> 01:33:19.520
You're not giving it x pubs. You're serving it individual addresses.
1281
01:33:20.965 --> 01:33:21.465
So
1282
01:33:22.405 --> 01:33:25.784
so it doesn't add a centralized risk in terms of privacy.
1283
01:33:26.804 --> 01:33:31.400
It does add a, basically, denial of service risk in terms of
1284
01:33:32.500 --> 01:33:36.760
you're gonna have, you know, one Whirlpool server, maybe a backup Whirlpool server,
1285
01:33:37.775 --> 01:33:40.755
that is coordinating all of these coin join rounds.
1286
01:33:41.614 --> 01:33:42.114
But,
1287
01:33:43.054 --> 01:33:44.034
you know, theoretically,
1288
01:33:44.640 --> 01:33:49.860
in a worst case scenario, let's say we have Sparrow Wallet and 5 other wallets,
1289
01:33:51.200 --> 01:33:55.045
6 other wallets all using the same Whirlpool liquidity pool,
1290
01:33:56.145 --> 01:33:56.645
and,
1291
01:33:57.345 --> 01:33:58.405
you know, AMLD
1292
01:33:59.400 --> 01:34:08.940
10 comes out or whatever. Like, I think we're on 6 right now, and they're, like, super aggressive against CoinJoin, and they go after the samurai team, and they they shut down the Whirlpool servers.
1293
01:34:10.975 --> 01:34:13.715
Someone else can launch their own coordinator
1294
01:34:14.335 --> 01:34:14.835
through,
1295
01:34:15.535 --> 01:34:26.055
Tor, make it an Onion only service, and maybe have some kind of web of trust, you know, ideally a NIM or something that already has a reputation can launch it. But, otherwise, it'll take some time to get new reputation there.
1296
01:34:27.815 --> 01:34:30.635
But but you can run you can run the Whirlpool server
1297
01:34:31.175 --> 01:34:35.035
just completely through onion and not, you know, have it tied to your identity.
1298
01:34:35.659 --> 01:34:42.300
But the the key aspect there is is who's ever running that Whirlpool server is not they're not a privacy risk. They're they're purely a,
1299
01:34:43.625 --> 01:34:44.425
uptime or,
1300
01:34:45.865 --> 01:34:51.565
you know, they they they they purely just need to be there to coordinate, but they're they're blind to what's actually happening.
1301
01:34:52.150 --> 01:34:57.290
1302
01:34:57.910 --> 01:35:06.155
the Whirlpool server does somehow get impacted, the fact that, you know, we can start it up as a sort of a third party effort,
1303
01:35:06.615 --> 01:35:12.900
that makes some some sense. I could see how that could could could work should that unfortunate day ever happen.
1304
01:35:14.640 --> 01:35:17.620
1305
01:35:19.025 --> 01:35:24.085
that's, like, the most bullish start model ever for me because, like, that means, like, it's heavily being used,
1306
01:35:25.264 --> 01:35:29.429
and gets taken down in in that situation. Like, if if that situation happens,
1307
01:35:30.050 --> 01:35:33.829
to me, we're sitting in a way more bullish scenario than I expect otherwise,
1308
01:35:35.034 --> 01:35:42.415
because it just does not seem like we have that momentum to get it added to more wallets. But I would like to see it adds more wallets, and I think the number one incentive
1309
01:35:42.750 --> 01:35:44.450
for it to get added to more wallets
1310
01:35:44.990 --> 01:35:51.890
is in privacy, and we're talking about incentives here. Right? It's it's that these these wallet developers and you know this firsthand, Craig.
1311
01:35:52.465 --> 01:35:53.445
Like, if you're running
1312
01:35:53.905 --> 01:35:55.925
a a a free open source wallet,
1313
01:35:57.265 --> 01:35:59.445
it is very hard to monetize. And,
1314
01:36:00.440 --> 01:36:01.020
you know,
1315
01:36:01.320 --> 01:36:06.940
donation where only gets you so far. And if if if these wallet developers have
1316
01:36:07.355 --> 01:36:10.255
a way to monetize their wallet in an ethical way
1317
01:36:10.955 --> 01:36:15.215
that provides them a steady stream of the best money that humans have ever had in Bitcoin,
1318
01:36:17.140 --> 01:36:20.040
without venture capitalists or any kind of VC funding,
1319
01:36:21.300 --> 01:36:22.440
that's gonna create
1320
01:36:24.475 --> 01:36:29.855
a positive feedback loop for any wallet developers that that ultimately decide to integrate it.
1321
01:36:31.570 --> 01:36:33.910
That that aligns them with their users,
1322
01:36:35.010 --> 01:36:38.870
and ideally ends up in, you know, better maintained,
1323
01:36:39.405 --> 01:36:45.105
fully fleshed out wallets because they have, like, the steady source of funding that they can rely on. Right?
1324
01:36:45.565 --> 01:36:48.705
1325
01:36:49.140 --> 01:36:52.360
sense sense. And that's the kind of why I wanted to raise it, just just to
1326
01:36:52.660 --> 01:36:53.160
discuss,
1327
01:36:54.180 --> 01:37:00.025
you know because it's it seems right right now that we're sort of starting to emerge from a period
1328
01:37:00.645 --> 01:37:02.185
where a lot of these implementations
1329
01:37:02.565 --> 01:37:05.465
have been sparring off against each other. And,
1330
01:37:06.230 --> 01:37:08.010
you know, as I say, for me,
1331
01:37:08.550 --> 01:37:14.010
just sitting at looking at it from the outside, I can see and measure how Whirlpool is growing,
1332
01:37:14.545 --> 01:37:21.045
which I can't until you send me this link. But even now it's still quite difficult. It's quite a struggle to see how the others are growing.
1333
01:37:22.600 --> 01:37:25.740
And, also, I just really like incentive models
1334
01:37:26.360 --> 01:37:26.860
that,
1335
01:37:27.640 --> 01:37:33.275
kind of work to the benefit of the user who's actually trying to use the product. That that that,
1336
01:37:33.735 --> 01:37:37.915
makes a lot of sense to me, and that that's kind of what translates into
1337
01:37:38.390 --> 01:37:38.890
success,
1338
01:37:39.670 --> 01:37:41.130
in my world at least.
1339
01:37:41.670 --> 01:37:48.765
1340
01:37:49.325 --> 01:37:55.800
I mean, I there I you can go back people can go back and listen to my episode with no power, but they're working on Wasabi 2 point o,
1341
01:37:56.500 --> 01:38:00.440
which is a complete rewrite and a complete change in implementation, and
1342
01:38:00.820 --> 01:38:04.805
I I'll reserve judgment on that when that gets released. It hasn't been released yet.
1343
01:38:05.285 --> 01:38:08.665
But join market is still very effective software. It's hard to use,
1344
01:38:09.525 --> 01:38:12.745
but they've made very different trade off designs
1345
01:38:13.380 --> 01:38:14.600
and incentive designs,
1346
01:38:16.260 --> 01:38:21.880
and the 2 being is that, first of all, there isn't really a liquidity pool. You're you're basically individually
1347
01:38:22.775 --> 01:38:26.795
going through these makers, and each maker is its own liquidity pool almost.
1348
01:38:27.415 --> 01:38:29.755
You're not really mixed in with everyone else.
1349
01:38:30.980 --> 01:38:32.680
So you don't have this, like, solid
1350
01:38:33.380 --> 01:38:35.400
liquidity base to work off of.
1351
01:38:37.515 --> 01:38:49.640
You know, the the UX is getting easier to use, especially with we had open arms on the show with join in box, which is integrated with raspiblitz that makes it way easier to use join market. But the number one incentive difference
1352
01:38:50.420 --> 01:38:52.600
is what we just highlighted, which is
1353
01:38:53.994 --> 01:38:58.974
individual wallet developers have no reason to implement join market besides possibly
1354
01:38:59.355 --> 01:39:05.050
incentivize you know, hoping that more users will use theirs their wallet because it has join market built in.
1355
01:39:05.670 --> 01:39:11.850
There's no financial incentive for them to add it, but there's a financial incentive for Whirlpool to be added to these wallets because
1356
01:39:12.205 --> 01:39:14.385
you're literally making a portion of the fees.
1357
01:39:16.205 --> 01:39:22.239
It's you know, between Wasabi and Samurais, the first time really that you saw these open source Bitcoin projects
1358
01:39:23.099 --> 01:39:26.480
that had a steady income from their users
1359
01:39:27.420 --> 01:39:30.239
that also is is not easily,
1360
01:39:30.835 --> 01:39:31.655
you know, forkable.
1361
01:39:32.034 --> 01:39:37.415
You you, like, you can you can fork it and run your own coordinator, but then you're just in a completely different
1362
01:39:38.470 --> 01:39:47.290
liquidity pool. I mean, you don't have that liquidity pool to work off of. So you're incentivized to to really, you know, work together there and and and build that single
1363
01:39:47.935 --> 01:39:50.835
large liquidity pool, which I really think we we need,
1364
01:39:52.575 --> 01:39:58.090
because there's just not that many users seeking privacy. So we need to amplify as much as possible the users that are.
1365
01:39:59.190 --> 01:40:02.969
1366
01:40:03.305 --> 01:40:04.765
1367
01:40:05.545 --> 01:40:07.005
nearly 3,000 Bitcoin.
1368
01:40:07.385 --> 01:40:10.525
So so just to be clear on these unspent capacity numbers,
1369
01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:14.860
Clark Moody has a higher number than Hyperbole does,
1370
01:40:15.400 --> 01:40:15.900
because,
1371
01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:18.139
Clark Moody counts,
1372
01:40:20.635 --> 01:40:21.695
he he counts,
1373
01:40:23.114 --> 01:40:29.960
Whirlpool transactions that are waiting to go into Whirlpool that haven't gone in yet. So they're just sitting in the transaction 0, but they haven't actually
1374
01:40:30.500 --> 01:40:34.840
gone into Whirlpool yet. By hyperbole, waits till after they go in.
1375
01:40:35.140 --> 01:40:35.460
But,
1376
01:40:36.335 --> 01:40:40.435
so the the range is, I think, hyperbole has it at, like, 24100 Bitcoin,
1377
01:40:41.775 --> 01:40:45.920
and Clark has it at, like, 32100. So that's, like, there's, like, 800 Bitcoin
1378
01:40:46.300 --> 01:40:49.600
getting ready to go into Whirlpool that haven't quite gone in yet.
1379
01:40:51.340 --> 01:40:52.615
So probably the 25100
1380
01:40:52.995 --> 01:40:58.695
number is, like, the more accurate number, but regardless, that's a negligible difference in the big scheme of things.
1381
01:41:00.230 --> 01:41:07.690
I mean, you're talking about someone you're talking about someone like Michael Sailor or whatever who, like, personally, between his company and his own holdings,
1382
01:41:08.395 --> 01:41:09.695
holds over a 150,000
1383
01:41:10.074 --> 01:41:14.415
Bitcoin. Right? And we're talking about 25 100 Bitcoin, 3,000 Bitcoin.
1384
01:41:15.275 --> 01:41:16.014
So we
1385
01:41:16.480 --> 01:41:17.220
so we
1386
01:41:17.920 --> 01:41:21.780
it's a it's a big hill for us to climb, and we need to get those numbers up
1387
01:41:22.240 --> 01:41:25.355
sooner rather than later because it it provides a
1388
01:41:26.855 --> 01:41:30.945
and we talked about this when you first came on about multisig. It provides almost a,
1389
01:41:33.110 --> 01:41:42.825
it's like a warning shot to people who want to attack. So when you talk about multi sig, it was this idea that if everyone if every attacker assumes that you have multi they're not gonna come into your house
1390
01:41:43.605 --> 01:41:52.510
and, break your knees to try and get, your Bitcoin because they'll just assume that it's in sig, and it's gonna be a long arduous process, and they're gonna have to go to multiple locations.
1391
01:41:53.450 --> 01:42:04.005
I think when it comes to state actors, when it comes to authoritarian governments that are trying to attack private Bitcoin users, if they see that number go up, if they see this privacy liquidity pool increase,
1392
01:42:05.344 --> 01:42:06.324
they might be
1393
01:42:07.730 --> 01:42:14.045
motivated to not try and attack the privacy of Bitcoin users because they know that there's a way out for them.
1394
01:42:14.925 --> 01:42:19.745
So I want to get that number up as soon as possible because I think it reduces the likelihood
1395
01:42:20.445 --> 01:42:22.145
of large scale state attack
1396
01:42:23.090 --> 01:42:24.789
on the on the privacy side.
1397
01:42:26.210 --> 01:42:29.270
1398
01:42:29.809 --> 01:42:31.825
sense, Matt, for sure. Yeah.
1399
01:42:32.605 --> 01:42:34.625
1400
01:42:36.045 --> 01:42:42.180
Kito is is dealing with a fire at his Fiat job. So right now, it's just, the Odell and Craig show,
1401
01:42:42.960 --> 01:42:45.700
but he'll he'll be back when he can be back. And,
1402
01:42:46.240 --> 01:42:49.860
Kito, if you're listening, just chime in when you're when you're talkable again.
1403
01:42:52.865 --> 01:42:55.125
So that was an interesting Whirlpool conversation.
1404
01:42:57.105 --> 01:43:00.480
What are your I have a bunch of things. Like, are are you
1405
01:43:01.100 --> 01:43:03.520
what are your thoughts on adding so so
1406
01:43:04.540 --> 01:43:12.425
so Samura has 2 things. Right? So Samura has Whirlpool, which is this coordinated coin joint. Right? Oh, so that was the other thing that join market
1407
01:43:13.145 --> 01:43:15.405
before I get distracted even more,
1408
01:43:16.140 --> 01:43:20.080
the trade off the join market made was they didn't want
1409
01:43:22.595 --> 01:43:27.175
that issue that I said with the Whirlpool coordinator. Right? Like, the Whirlpool coordinator could get shut down,
1410
01:43:28.195 --> 01:43:31.975
which is not a privacy risk, but it's a denial of service attack. Right?
1411
01:43:33.600 --> 01:43:34.100
So
1412
01:43:36.560 --> 01:43:36.880
the
1413
01:43:37.520 --> 01:43:48.074
as far as the join market devs concerned, and I had the 2 lead ones on, I had Belcher and Waxwing on, that's not a trade off they're willing to make. Right? So they wanted join market to be as censorship resistant as possible,
1414
01:43:48.470 --> 01:43:54.570
and that's why there's no centralized coordinator. Every round is coordinated by the maker themselves,
1415
01:43:55.805 --> 01:43:57.825
the person providing the liquidity.
1416
01:43:58.205 --> 01:44:00.225
No. It's actually coordinated by the taker,
1417
01:44:01.485 --> 01:44:03.665
so the maker doesn't know how it's coordinated.
1418
01:44:05.330 --> 01:44:08.870
So it's coordinated by each individual taker, and the taker will coordinate
1419
01:44:09.490 --> 01:44:09.990
maybe,
1420
01:44:11.250 --> 01:44:15.534
like, a a waterfall of 10 coin joints between 10 different makers.
1421
01:44:16.395 --> 01:44:17.295
And that way,
1422
01:44:18.235 --> 01:44:23.454
the individual makers like, as long as there's 1 or 2 individual makers in there that aren't malicious,
1423
01:44:23.860 --> 01:44:26.920
that they can't track the transaction through the the waterfall.
1424
01:44:28.260 --> 01:44:35.204
And the taker's coordinating also, the taker knows that I'm coordinating it so that the there's no malicious coordinator. I don't have to rely on a coordinator.
1425
01:44:36.465 --> 01:44:39.525
But in the reality of the world right now is
1426
01:44:40.120 --> 01:44:41.660
running a coin join coordinator,
1427
01:44:42.280 --> 01:44:43.100
is completely
1428
01:44:43.480 --> 01:44:43.980
allowed.
1429
01:44:44.680 --> 01:44:46.700
So if we can get away with that,
1430
01:44:47.125 --> 01:44:49.625
if we can get away with having a centralized coordinator
1431
01:44:49.925 --> 01:44:53.705
to make it an easier UX and a and a better liquidity profile,
1432
01:44:54.510 --> 01:45:01.489
then we should absolutely do that. And if we can't in the future, then, sure, by all means, we'll go to a more censorship resistant model,
1433
01:45:02.195 --> 01:45:07.094
where you don't have a centralized coordinator. But, in the meantime, if we can get away with it,
1434
01:45:07.554 --> 01:45:08.695
I think that's absolutely
1435
01:45:10.329 --> 01:45:10.989
a benefit.
1436
01:45:11.369 --> 01:45:16.590
And and this is like a it's a similar trade off, but even less so than you're talking about with, like,
1437
01:45:17.695 --> 01:45:18.435
these larger,
1438
01:45:19.054 --> 01:45:26.114
Electrum servers public Electrum servers that are run, because those public Electrum servers have a privacy risk attached to them. With this, it's all blinded.
1439
01:45:26.900 --> 01:45:29.960
So there's no privacy risk. It's just completely a
1440
01:45:30.980 --> 01:45:32.440
denial of service vector.
1441
01:45:34.055 --> 01:45:39.515
So, yeah, I mean, I so so so Samurai has the coordinated coin joints,
1442
01:45:40.375 --> 01:45:44.030
and then they also have collaborative transactions that are uncoordinated.
1443
01:45:44.570 --> 01:45:45.469
So they have
1444
01:45:46.570 --> 01:45:51.309
they have a fake coin join that they do, which is called Stonewall, which is what
1445
01:45:52.015 --> 01:45:56.355
all their transactions default to on the wallet, and that's just me with my own UTXOs.
1446
01:45:57.535 --> 01:46:10.360
When I do transaction, it looks on chain. It looks like it's a coin join, a 2 person coin join. Then they have Stonewall times 2, which is a actual 2 person coin join without a coordinator involved. It's just between the 2 parties.
1447
01:46:12.244 --> 01:46:15.065
And then they have the pay join, which they call stowaway,
1448
01:46:15.925 --> 01:46:16.905
which is a,
1449
01:46:18.900 --> 01:46:24.280
it it looks like an ordinary payment, but one of the inputs is provided by the receiver of the payment
1450
01:46:24.820 --> 01:46:27.239
to further throw off, chain analysis.
1451
01:46:29.195 --> 01:46:31.775
So they have a mix of these collaborative transactions.
1452
01:46:32.635 --> 01:46:33.295
Do you
1453
01:46:33.994 --> 01:46:37.135
foresee adding any of these non coordinated
1454
01:46:40.490 --> 01:46:44.270
1455
01:46:44.890 --> 01:46:48.235
because, you know, your post post mix, you can't just,
1456
01:46:49.015 --> 01:46:56.315
you know, treat it as you would any you know, it's you you need to think a bit about about that, and I think Semaurei actually advised you
1457
01:46:56.680 --> 01:47:01.580
kind of to keep your coins within your your sort of wallet to take advantage of those different
1458
01:47:02.360 --> 01:47:11.080
techniques that they have. So, yeah, I I mean, I I definitely see it as part of the overall thing. You know, you kind of have to build one feature at a time, but,
1459
01:47:11.960 --> 01:47:19.100
for sure, you know, those kind of you know? And that's that's kind of what I wanted to get onto is just being able to take advantage of
1460
01:47:24.365 --> 01:47:24.865
steganographic
1461
01:47:25.805 --> 01:47:26.305
techniques,
1462
01:47:27.485 --> 01:47:30.250
which is the things that you've just, you know, described.
1463
01:47:30.870 --> 01:47:32.969
I think that that's really important. So,
1464
01:47:34.070 --> 01:47:36.010
Sparrow does currently support,
1465
01:47:36.390 --> 01:47:37.530
the pay to endpoint
1466
01:47:37.985 --> 01:47:38.725
pay join.
1467
01:47:39.745 --> 01:47:44.005
And I I mean, I just think it's really cool. I just also think that it's,
1468
01:47:44.865 --> 01:47:47.285
it's got an incentive model, which doesn't
1469
01:47:47.880 --> 01:47:50.700
necessarily seem to work all that well. So I'm not
1470
01:47:51.080 --> 01:47:52.540
super hopeful that,
1471
01:47:53.160 --> 01:47:59.155
you know, BIP 78, I think is what it is, is gonna get widespread support. I really hope I'm wrong. But,
1472
01:48:00.034 --> 01:48:04.450
you know, I think we need to be building these additional methods in,
1473
01:48:05.410 --> 01:48:06.230
because, otherwise,
1474
01:48:06.690 --> 01:48:09.670
you know, all of that that sort of mixing that you've done
1475
01:48:10.050 --> 01:48:10.790
just becomes,
1476
01:48:11.570 --> 01:48:12.070
easily
1477
01:48:12.450 --> 01:48:15.284
you know, you you can kind of see what's going on unless you,
1478
01:48:17.605 --> 01:48:20.585
spend those post mix outputs in the right way.
1479
01:48:21.420 --> 01:48:22.239
1480
01:48:23.260 --> 01:48:29.199
so there's, like, an interesting piece of nuance here in terms of Sparrow, because I I imagine the majority of Sparrow users
1481
01:48:29.900 --> 01:48:30.400
are
1482
01:48:31.195 --> 01:48:36.175
keeping their keys cold on hardware wallets, whether that's single sig or multi sig.
1483
01:48:38.770 --> 01:48:39.270
And
1484
01:48:40.130 --> 01:48:41.510
the main trade off
1485
01:48:42.370 --> 01:48:44.710
with these coordinated coin joint protocols
1486
01:48:45.410 --> 01:48:46.150
or just
1487
01:48:48.345 --> 01:48:54.765
yeah. I guess the the main trade off with the 247 coordinated coin join protocol like Whirlpool is that the keys need to be hot,
1488
01:48:55.540 --> 01:48:57.639
if you wanna be participating. Right?
1489
01:48:58.980 --> 01:48:59.480
Obviously,
1490
01:48:59.940 --> 01:49:02.599
if you're gonna be a part of a multiparty transaction,
1491
01:49:04.505 --> 01:49:07.005
those keys need to be available to sign the transaction,
1492
01:49:07.785 --> 01:49:09.165
so they need to be hot.
1493
01:49:10.665 --> 01:49:11.565
With the uncoordinated
1494
01:49:13.000 --> 01:49:13.980
collaborative transactions,
1495
01:49:15.160 --> 01:49:15.980
whether that's
1496
01:49:17.000 --> 01:49:18.700
coin swaps, pay join,
1497
01:49:19.160 --> 01:49:21.260
or these 2 person coin joins,
1498
01:49:22.435 --> 01:49:24.375
or maybe even 3 person coin joins,
1499
01:49:25.315 --> 01:49:31.070
they only need to be hot when you're actually coordinating that when you're actually, you know, doing that transaction. Right?
1500
01:49:32.110 --> 01:49:32.849
So, presumably,
1501
01:49:33.150 --> 01:49:36.849
you can do that from a hardware wallet, from even a multisig setup relatively
1502
01:49:37.469 --> 01:49:38.690
easily if the UX,
1503
01:49:39.230 --> 01:49:40.530
facilitates it properly.
1504
01:49:42.824 --> 01:49:43.965
So, like, it's
1505
01:49:44.985 --> 01:49:48.445
in a in a lot of ways, in terms of UX flow,
1506
01:49:49.380 --> 01:49:50.440
it is probably
1507
01:49:51.060 --> 01:49:55.000
an easier thing to implement. I mean, you just you just talked about page 1p2ep.
1508
01:49:55.915 --> 01:49:59.695
Right? I I assume in Sparrow, the way it's implemented is, like, basically
1509
01:50:00.555 --> 01:50:05.760
well, one side is just always on. Right? It's like you're paying a BTC pay server, so they're already
1510
01:50:06.559 --> 01:50:08.980
hot. And then the side that has, you know,
1511
01:50:09.440 --> 01:50:20.545
hardware wallet set up, whether that's multisig or single sig, is basically deciding at will. I'm gonna do this transaction. So they're able to bring their keys hot just for that, or they're able to sign that transaction
1512
01:50:23.730 --> 01:50:26.070
at the time of of that transaction. Right?
1513
01:50:26.610 --> 01:50:39.645
1514
01:50:40.260 --> 01:50:47.800
feature to keep keep the the the sort of the keys cold while we participated in a whirl whirlpool. I mean, that would be,
1515
01:50:48.515 --> 01:50:58.290
you know, I think quite a big win. But, as I say, it's a long long kind of way off, to get to that point. But, you know, these are the kind of ideas that,
1516
01:50:59.310 --> 01:51:22.200
I think would make it much easier. Because, you know, if you're looking at it today and you're kind of looking at your cold storage stash and you're trying to decide, should I bring that out of cold storage, mix it, and then send it back in, you know, there's always the worry of bringing it into a hot wallet. Even if you do it a small part at a time, you know, it's it's it's just a reason. It's kind of a friction point that might make people,
1517
01:51:23.225 --> 01:51:24.045
not do it.
1518
01:51:24.505 --> 01:51:25.005
So,
1519
01:51:25.305 --> 01:51:29.680
you know, if we can remove that friction to some extent, we can we can make it
1520
01:51:30.720 --> 01:51:37.140
1521
01:51:38.275 --> 01:51:45.495
And I I mean, if you talk have you talked to, like, the samurai, ride or die? Like, privacy is all that matters. Privacy is your number one priority.
1522
01:51:47.480 --> 01:51:48.300
They would
1523
01:51:49.400 --> 01:51:50.699
advise you to
1524
01:51:51.000 --> 01:51:55.420
keep all your funds hot in Whirlpool constantly until it's time to spend,
1525
01:51:56.344 --> 01:51:58.525
because that'll give you the best privacy guarantees.
1526
01:51:59.224 --> 01:52:03.804
And then if you're talking to someone about security guarantees, they'll say you should keep it in a multisig,
1527
01:52:05.390 --> 01:52:06.370
multi jurisdictional.
1528
01:52:07.070 --> 01:52:14.050
Like, even if you wanna spend it, it's gonna take yourself a couple months and traveling around the world to to spend your funds.
1529
01:52:16.975 --> 01:52:17.475
And
1530
01:52:18.175 --> 01:52:18.995
and the realistic
1531
01:52:20.335 --> 01:52:20.835
scenario
1532
01:52:21.135 --> 01:52:25.190
for a lot of people, the practical scenario in the in the middle ground is
1533
01:52:25.810 --> 01:52:31.750
you keep a a decent amount of funds in Whirlpool that are constantly mixing, and you try and reduce that risk
1534
01:52:32.295 --> 01:52:34.394
by also having a cold storage
1535
01:52:34.855 --> 01:52:35.355
stack.
1536
01:52:37.094 --> 01:52:44.620
And when it comes time to spend, then you'll send from cold storage back into Whirlpool. Let it sit there for a while before you actually come to spend.
1537
01:52:45.239 --> 01:52:48.219
And then what you mentioned was, like, the CK bunker idea,
1538
01:52:49.005 --> 01:53:00.170
where that wouldn't actually be cold, but it'd be, like, cold ish, where you have, like, a plurality of your keys or c k bunker, which is this cold card, basically HSM mode, this hardware signing mode,
1539
01:53:01.110 --> 01:53:05.929
and you have it with a set number of rules. So, like, the rules are set in a way
1540
01:53:07.094 --> 01:53:11.835
that'll authorize a Whirlpool transaction, but it won't authorize draining the wallet,
1541
01:53:13.230 --> 01:53:16.350
which is, like, a very interesting middle ground to me. I think it's a
1542
01:53:17.630 --> 01:53:23.625
it could be very useful to people, and it it it would it would probably unlock more liquidity. People would be more comfortable
1543
01:53:24.085 --> 01:53:26.505
putting more funds in. Now
1544
01:53:27.205 --> 01:53:31.200
the reality of the situation, though, to go even farther back in this conversation,
1545
01:53:32.140 --> 01:53:32.800
is that
1546
01:53:34.220 --> 01:53:35.520
these are once again,
1547
01:53:36.060 --> 01:53:38.480
these are the same trade offs made on Lightning.
1548
01:53:38.805 --> 01:53:41.785
Like, with Lightning, your wallet is completely hot,
1549
01:53:42.165 --> 01:53:49.400
and a lot of times, you're actually even broadcasting your IP address, and and most people I don't know if anyone really using
1550
01:53:50.660 --> 01:53:53.480
a multisig setup with, like, signing policies
1551
01:53:54.075 --> 01:53:56.895
for their lightning wallet. So it's almost always single sig,
1552
01:53:58.955 --> 01:54:06.400
and there's a decent amount of funds there. There's whole businesses built in built on basically having these massive lightning hot wallets.
1553
01:54:08.620 --> 01:54:11.285
So I feel like there's more nuance there and room
1554
01:54:11.685 --> 01:54:13.625
for different trade off balances than
1555
01:54:14.405 --> 01:54:16.345
people give it credit for.
1556
01:54:17.845 --> 01:54:19.465
I don't think having
1557
01:54:19.845 --> 01:54:20.345
a,
1558
01:54:22.190 --> 01:54:26.050
you know, a subset of your funds hot, so you you're using Whirlpool,
1559
01:54:26.510 --> 01:54:30.130
is the biggest risk in the world. It is definitely an additional risk,
1560
01:54:31.335 --> 01:54:34.475
but it's just something that users need to keep in mind, basically.
1561
01:54:35.255 --> 01:54:40.350
1562
01:54:40.969 --> 01:54:44.590
have your cold storage stash. Make sure it is cold. Don't
1563
01:54:45.055 --> 01:55:07.455
load up your cold storage wallet when you don't need those those funds. You know? By all means, like, do your key key checks. You know? Make sure you can spend from the wallet from time to time to time. That's important to do. But your cold storage wallet, the the whole idea is that it should be be sort of cold. And then you keep a certain amount of funds, which you can then send send through will Whirlpool and spend from there,
1564
01:55:08.235 --> 01:55:09.455
and they're 2 separate
1565
01:55:09.835 --> 01:55:10.335
mounts.
1566
01:55:10.715 --> 01:55:11.775
I think that that's
1567
01:55:12.219 --> 01:55:15.199
the best in class at this moment in time. Yeah.
1568
01:55:18.300 --> 01:55:19.360
1569
01:55:21.055 --> 01:55:23.795
these are my favorite topics, but, damn, they're fucking deep.
1570
01:55:24.574 --> 01:55:25.074
Yep.
1571
01:55:26.415 --> 01:55:32.550
Yeah. I mean, page 1, I think you kinda hit the nail on the head, man. I like, I people like to hand wave, like, page 1 will be,
1572
01:55:33.250 --> 01:55:34.710
you know, this great stenographic
1573
01:55:35.010 --> 01:55:36.950
tool for us. But I I just
1574
01:55:39.395 --> 01:55:42.115
I don't know if, like, the incentives there are just
1575
01:55:42.995 --> 01:55:45.415
1576
01:55:47.130 --> 01:55:56.825
I I don't know. They it it you know, what you have to have is a merchant who wants to take part, and, you know, they have no particular incentive to do that unless they just care about the privacy
1577
01:55:57.525 --> 01:55:58.025
of
1578
01:55:58.965 --> 01:56:03.625
the customers who are paying them, which is not a zero thing, but it's it's it's not
1579
01:56:04.090 --> 01:56:05.390
a financial thing.
1580
01:56:06.330 --> 01:56:10.030
And then, you know, you you kind of have to obviously, as
1581
01:56:10.410 --> 01:56:15.684
the consumer paying the merchant, you have to spend a little bit more in fees because you're including an extra input.
1582
01:56:15.985 --> 01:56:23.739
Right. So, you know, so it's it's just, you know, neither of those two things are are major, and I I I would definitely
1583
01:56:24.120 --> 01:56:25.020
consider it,
1584
01:56:26.520 --> 01:56:29.625
a a net positive to use it if I could. But,
1585
01:56:30.425 --> 01:56:35.805
whether everyone else will see it that that way, it's it's it's harder to see that being the outcome
1586
01:56:36.540 --> 01:56:38.240
or at least becoming the default.
1587
01:56:38.860 --> 01:56:42.240
1588
01:56:42.780 --> 01:56:44.640
it's competing with Lightning transactions.
1589
01:56:45.625 --> 01:56:48.045
And on Lightning, our big issue is
1590
01:56:48.425 --> 01:56:49.485
receiver privacy.
1591
01:56:51.065 --> 01:56:53.565
But if if if you're a diligent
1592
01:56:53.980 --> 01:56:58.000
Bitcoin user and you want sender privacy on on Bitcoin,
1593
01:56:59.579 --> 01:57:09.025
with lightning, you know, you you either spin up a you spin up your own node really quick. Open Arms talks about this a lot. You, like, spin up your own node. You fund it with a a coin join UTXO,
1594
01:57:10.110 --> 01:57:19.330
and you you make payments with that for a couple months, and then you shut it down. And and that's gonna give you a way less fee burden than if you use PayJoin, and that's gonna constantly
1595
01:57:22.335 --> 01:57:23.155
that incentive
1596
01:57:23.695 --> 01:57:26.800
between Lightning and PayJoin will will constantly be there.
1597
01:57:27.520 --> 01:57:32.500
If if you I all of these assumptions rely on a high fee environment, though, so
1598
01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:34.340
I'm literally watching
1599
01:57:35.975 --> 01:57:36.955
why we're we're
1600
01:57:37.655 --> 01:57:42.235
watching the mempool dot space, and it's just completely empty right now. So who knows?
1601
01:57:42.670 --> 01:57:52.449
1602
01:57:52.975 --> 01:57:53.955
super interesting.
1603
01:57:55.135 --> 01:57:58.035
Again, I wore I I sort of wonder about the incentives
1604
01:57:59.600 --> 01:58:02.660
behind it. But the thing that I, you know, I've seen talked about is,
1605
01:58:03.840 --> 01:58:08.020
you know, what is the market like for people who who want to exchange
1606
01:58:08.320 --> 01:58:11.875
their coin history? You know? Is that some something that,
1607
01:58:13.375 --> 01:58:19.290
is attractive to people? Because you don't know what coin history you're gonna gonna get. Right? Yeah. And then what are you gonna do?
1608
01:58:19.670 --> 01:58:22.250
1609
01:58:23.190 --> 01:58:24.570
new coin that you got?
1610
01:58:25.165 --> 01:58:37.639
1611
01:58:38.179 --> 01:58:38.679
1612
01:58:39.059 --> 01:58:39.719
to me,
1613
01:58:40.260 --> 01:58:44.094
when we talk about all these things, when we talk about Lightning, when we talk about PayJoint,
1614
01:58:44.395 --> 01:58:46.015
when we talk about coin swaps,
1615
01:58:46.635 --> 01:58:48.335
when we talk about atomic swaps,
1616
01:58:51.080 --> 01:58:53.260
to me, these are all post mix tools.
1617
01:58:54.920 --> 01:58:58.139
So I think I think you do coin joints first,
1618
01:59:00.585 --> 01:59:01.405
and CoinJoins,
1619
01:59:01.865 --> 01:59:03.485
it's interesting. Right? Because
1620
01:59:04.345 --> 01:59:05.645
the main negative,
1621
01:59:06.000 --> 01:59:12.179
the perceived main negative of CoinJoin, besides the cost, because it is definitely cost you more if you use CoinJoin,
1622
01:59:13.925 --> 01:59:17.225
The main perceived negative is that it's really visible on chain.
1623
01:59:18.485 --> 01:59:21.705
But with when you talk about the negatives of something like Coinswap,
1624
01:59:22.970 --> 01:59:26.190
the the main negative is actually probably the exact opposite.
1625
01:59:28.330 --> 01:59:32.350
Where if I do, like, a Coinswap with you, and let's just say, like, in the most
1626
01:59:34.715 --> 01:59:42.409
yeah. I I don't know. Like, it's connected to a sanctioned address or something. Right? But let's say, like, the most is connected to, like, a known ransomware gang,
1627
01:59:43.429 --> 01:59:45.130
and then I spend that somewhere.
1628
01:59:45.510 --> 01:59:46.170
And then
1629
01:59:46.550 --> 01:59:50.015
on chain, it looks like that was just my UTXO the whole fucking time,
1630
01:59:50.635 --> 01:59:54.415
so then I can get in trouble for that. But with with coin joint
1631
01:59:54.715 --> 01:59:56.575
with these equal output coin joints
1632
01:59:57.270 --> 02:00:02.570
on on chain, it's very obvious you did a coin joint, and that's perceived as a negative. But to me,
1633
02:00:03.350 --> 02:00:04.490
that's kind of
1634
02:00:06.465 --> 02:00:08.085
it's it's it's kind of
1635
02:00:08.465 --> 02:00:09.685
parallel to
1636
02:00:11.025 --> 02:00:11.525
encryption
1637
02:00:12.225 --> 02:00:14.885
with when when I when I send an encrypted message,
1638
02:00:15.740 --> 02:00:17.680
an observer doesn't know what
1639
02:00:18.460 --> 02:00:22.000
if the encryption sound, the observer doesn't know what's in the message.
1640
02:00:22.755 --> 02:00:25.335
Right? But they know that I sent an encrypted message.
1641
02:00:26.594 --> 02:00:28.614
You know, if you if you use a VPN,
1642
02:00:29.074 --> 02:00:32.150
your ISP and your government know that you're encrypting your Internet
1643
02:00:32.710 --> 02:00:41.770
traffic. If they don't collude with the VPN provider who's actually encrypting your traffic, who's your counterparty there, they don't know what your actual traffic is, but they know it's encrypted.
1644
02:00:42.975 --> 02:00:44.995
So to me, CoinJoin are actually
1645
02:00:46.095 --> 02:00:51.235
this this it's brilliant that it's on chain and it's it's visible on chain that that
1646
02:00:51.750 --> 02:00:55.370
it's a privacy seeking collaborative transaction where it breaks
1647
02:00:55.750 --> 02:01:01.050
the history and the the forward the the forward tracking and the and the history of it.
1648
02:01:01.615 --> 02:01:02.595
So to me,
1649
02:01:03.055 --> 02:01:04.435
CoinJoin should be
1650
02:01:05.295 --> 02:01:08.115
the de facto standard in all of these wallets,
1651
02:01:08.670 --> 02:01:17.490
and then all these other tools, whether that's opening up a Lightning channel, doing a pay join, doing a coin swap, are something that happens after this,
1652
02:01:18.335 --> 02:01:19.715
equal output coin join.
1653
02:01:21.615 --> 02:01:33.500
1654
02:01:34.280 --> 02:01:34.780
1655
02:01:35.095 --> 02:01:35.595
1656
02:01:36.135 --> 02:01:37.275
you know, what would be
1657
02:01:37.655 --> 02:01:39.995
would it would it be sort of some way after
1658
02:01:40.375 --> 02:01:47.320
the the CoinJoin has taken place that you would find the need to Coinswap? Or Well, so, like, the Belcher's dream,
1659
02:01:48.500 --> 02:01:50.599
1660
02:01:51.300 --> 02:01:53.400
Big supporter of his work. I'm I
1661
02:01:54.015 --> 02:02:01.395
I I financially contribute to his work. I advocate for his work. I loved having him on the show. Love having conversations with him.
1662
02:02:02.370 --> 02:02:05.990
The dream for Chris with Coinswaps is that if we have, like,
1663
02:02:07.490 --> 02:02:07.990
40%
1664
02:02:08.425 --> 02:02:11.885
of Bitcoiners using coin swaps without CoinJoin, just coin swaps,
1665
02:02:13.065 --> 02:02:16.684
the chain analysis companies and the governments that they serve,
1666
02:02:17.720 --> 02:02:23.660
and the corporate surveillance companies that they serve will just hand in the towel, and they'll be like, there's no way for us to
1667
02:02:24.360 --> 02:02:24.860
reasonably
1668
02:02:25.320 --> 02:02:25.820
assume
1669
02:02:26.565 --> 02:02:30.825
that this transaction is owned by this person because so many people are using coin swaps.
1670
02:02:31.285 --> 02:02:41.120
Now the problem there is that pain point from 0 to 40% or whatever the threshold you wanna say is the threshold where we have enough Bitcoin transactions that are using coin swaps
1671
02:02:41.585 --> 02:02:44.325
that it completely throws all your assumptions out the window.
1672
02:02:44.865 --> 02:02:47.285
That that bootstrap period,
1673
02:02:48.625 --> 02:02:51.205
is super dangerous to users in my mind,
1674
02:02:51.890 --> 02:02:54.150
because, like we said earlier, you're gonna get,
1675
02:02:54.930 --> 02:03:00.470
you know, you're gonna get other people's coins, and you're not gonna really know what the history is of those coins,
1676
02:03:00.845 --> 02:03:09.425
And we're gonna have naive chain analysis companies and the governments they serve just assuming that it's yours. And even if you end up defending yourself in court or something,
1677
02:03:09.760 --> 02:03:16.820
it's gonna cost a lot of money. It's gonna be a huge fucking headache, and maybe you'll have accounts closed and all this other shit that you have to fucking deal with.
1678
02:03:17.255 --> 02:03:18.074
So that that
1679
02:03:18.454 --> 02:03:19.915
middle ground to me is
1680
02:03:21.175 --> 02:03:24.554
is almost untenable. Like, I we have a hard enough time
1681
02:03:25.540 --> 02:03:28.840
trying to get CoinJoin usage up. If you have that additional
1682
02:03:29.780 --> 02:03:30.840
concern that
1683
02:03:32.179 --> 02:03:35.159
that you don't really know, you know, who you're swapping with
1684
02:03:35.525 --> 02:03:36.825
and that you might face
1685
02:03:37.445 --> 02:03:39.145
punishment based on what you get,
1686
02:03:41.365 --> 02:03:46.199
it it's obviously gonna hinder adoption. Now why would someone use it as a post mix tool?
1687
02:03:46.739 --> 02:03:54.435
The reason someone use it as a post mix tool is because it it will literally it literally breaks the link on chain. Right? So on CoinJoin,
1688
02:03:54.895 --> 02:03:56.995
when they use these equal output Coin Joins,
1689
02:03:57.535 --> 02:03:58.035
you're
1690
02:03:59.375 --> 02:04:02.675
you're muddying the probability waters. Right? Like, the
1691
02:04:03.510 --> 02:04:05.930
tracking Bitcoin's a probability game. So
1692
02:04:06.550 --> 02:04:11.930
every every every time someone tracks Bitcoin, they're they're they're making assumptions
1693
02:04:12.575 --> 02:04:14.115
and they're assigning probability,
1694
02:04:15.215 --> 02:04:23.000
you know, with with these new chain analysis surveillance softwares or whatever. They do it behind the scenes, and they have a pretty UX. Right? But but, basically, what's happening is
1695
02:04:23.540 --> 02:04:27.560
they're assigning probabilities to every transaction to whether or not ownership has changed.
1696
02:04:28.100 --> 02:04:29.080
Right? And
1697
02:04:31.285 --> 02:04:38.805
in particular instances, it's very fucking obvious. Right? Like, if you if you make a transaction and one one output has
1698
02:04:41.360 --> 02:04:50.605
one output is to a wrap SegWit address, a 3 address, and the other output is back to a a native Segwit, a b c one address, and you sent from a b c one address,
1699
02:04:50.985 --> 02:04:53.645
the b c one output is obviously your change.
1700
02:04:54.265 --> 02:04:59.880
You paid you paid a you paid a wrap Segwit address, and your your change is the native SegWit. So that's obvious.
1701
02:05:00.580 --> 02:05:09.455
If you if you pay people like paying in round numbers. So, Craig, if I donate to you and I donate a 1000000 sats and then the change is, like,
1702
02:05:09.915 --> 02:05:10.415
432,000
1703
02:05:11.115 --> 02:05:11.615
sats,
1704
02:05:12.075 --> 02:05:12.575
956
1705
02:05:13.115 --> 02:05:17.920
or something, Like, that is obviously my change, and my donation was the round number.
1706
02:05:19.659 --> 02:05:25.575
So there there's certain heuristics that are, like, pretty obvious probability wise, and then there's ones that are
1707
02:05:26.195 --> 02:05:28.695
that that they're making bigger guesses. And with CoinJoin,
1708
02:05:29.440 --> 02:05:34.900
they're make their their probability gets completely thrown out the window. If you use a a Whirlpool CoinJoin,
1709
02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:41.844
you have 5 UTXs go in, and there's no deterministic links. There's, like, 10,000 different combinations that could be
1710
02:05:42.465 --> 02:05:44.485
that transaction of the way it happened,
1711
02:05:45.185 --> 02:05:54.869
and you could be any of those 5 leaving the pool. And then all of a sudden, if if that if 2 of those people go into another round, then it makes it it makes it even more cloudy of a situation.
1712
02:05:56.395 --> 02:05:59.534
With coin swaps, you literally just break the chain.
1713
02:05:59.835 --> 02:06:00.975
You're not even,
1714
02:06:02.155 --> 02:06:03.695
you're not fucking with the probabilities.
1715
02:06:04.340 --> 02:06:06.360
You're taking someone else's UTXO,
1716
02:06:07.780 --> 02:06:16.085
that is completely not connected to you on chain. So it's it's more similar to, like, one of these custodial mixers where, like, you send them Bitcoin, they send you someone else's Bitcoin.
1717
02:06:17.825 --> 02:06:18.885
So if you need
1718
02:06:19.985 --> 02:06:21.045
the best privacy,
1719
02:06:22.080 --> 02:06:26.020
your your your best solution will would probably be,
1720
02:06:26.400 --> 02:06:27.139
you know,
1721
02:06:27.840 --> 02:06:30.580
equal output coin join, and then go into Coinswaps.
1722
02:06:31.375 --> 02:06:40.675
Now why would the average user use coin swaps? Maybe they wouldn't, and that's fine. But if there's a subset of users, then all of a sudden this whole coin swaps idea
1723
02:06:41.280 --> 02:06:41.780
of
1724
02:06:43.840 --> 02:06:44.820
of, you know,
1725
02:06:45.679 --> 02:06:46.179
steganographic,
1726
02:06:47.120 --> 02:06:51.764
privacy, this idea that it looks like a normal transaction, but it's really a coin swap.
1727
02:06:52.065 --> 02:07:00.440
If there's some people leaving the pool and going into coin swaps, then you have to basically basically operate under the assumption that anyone leaving the pool could be a coin swap.
1728
02:07:00.980 --> 02:07:04.985
So it it it improves the privacy of all participants of
1729
02:07:05.945 --> 02:07:11.405
equal output coin joins if you're in the same liquidity pool if a subset of those users are using coin swaps,
1730
02:07:11.864 --> 02:07:12.525
I think.
1731
02:07:13.190 --> 02:07:22.905
1732
02:07:23.364 --> 02:07:25.145
now. So you could maybe even see
1733
02:07:25.605 --> 02:07:33.900
how, you know, somebody could say, listen. I only want a coin swap as with, the output from a coin coin join. I don't wanna coin swap with anything else.
1734
02:07:34.920 --> 02:07:42.885
1735
02:07:43.665 --> 02:07:51.429
Right? Because because that's obviously less censorship resistant. That server could get shut down. But you could have a blinded centralized Coinswap server
1736
02:07:52.025 --> 02:07:56.045
that only allows post Whirlpool UTXOs to be in the Coinswap.
1737
02:07:56.425 --> 02:07:59.245
Exactly. And and then you don't even have to coordinate amounts,
1738
02:07:59.740 --> 02:08:01.440
because all the amounts are already equal.
1739
02:08:02.140 --> 02:08:09.945
1740
02:08:10.645 --> 02:08:11.385
that that world
1741
02:08:11.685 --> 02:08:13.864
could could just make it a bit easier,
1742
02:08:14.165 --> 02:08:15.065
for the Coinswap
1743
02:08:16.965 --> 02:08:17.465
to
1744
02:08:17.910 --> 02:08:18.650
be a
1745
02:08:18.950 --> 02:08:20.090
more attractive option.
1746
02:08:22.790 --> 02:08:23.850
1747
02:08:24.310 --> 02:08:29.844
1748
02:08:30.864 --> 02:08:35.204
1749
02:08:36.490 --> 02:08:36.990
Yeah.
1750
02:08:37.370 --> 02:08:37.870
Right.
1751
02:08:38.250 --> 02:08:49.365
Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's a similar concept. Right? Where if the majority of people using just regular Stonewall, which is a one person coin joint that looks like a 2 person coin joint, and then some people are using the 2 person coin joint,
1752
02:08:49.745 --> 02:08:58.159
then you kinda have to operate under the assumption that every time you see one of those, it could be a 2 person coin joined even though the majority of them are probably 1 person coin joins.
1753
02:09:01.915 --> 02:09:07.295
But, yes, it's a it's a similar concept, and and that's why I think it's just good to have all these different post mix tools.
1754
02:09:07.595 --> 02:09:09.695
But I I mean, I also think I'm
1755
02:09:10.280 --> 02:09:13.659
part of the minority that thinks Lightning's a post mix tool,
1756
02:09:13.960 --> 02:09:18.765
unless you get onboarded directly to Lightning, which might be a thing in, you know, a high fee,
1757
02:09:19.325 --> 02:09:20.705
high sustained fee market.
1758
02:09:21.245 --> 02:09:22.065
I don't know.
1759
02:09:22.445 --> 02:09:27.985
Once again, I don't know how when that's gonna happen because I was completely caught off guard by the current one we're in.
1760
02:09:30.040 --> 02:09:39.775
But but if you're coming from unchained, you should always it should be coin joined into lightning every time, period. Back to the that coin swap and inheriting someone else's
1761
02:09:40.075 --> 02:09:40.975
1762
02:09:41.595 --> 02:09:42.895
I I think I personally
1763
02:09:43.590 --> 02:09:44.090
prefer
1764
02:09:44.950 --> 02:09:46.490
to go straight from,
1765
02:09:47.190 --> 02:09:48.570
mixing to spending,
1766
02:09:49.670 --> 02:09:51.530
because at least I know that,
1767
02:09:52.885 --> 02:09:56.825
these coins the only history visible history of my coins is the mixing.
1768
02:09:57.845 --> 02:10:10.380
So yeah. Unless the coins what happens with someone who with also some coins straight from the mixer, I probably not use that. Yeah. I mean, what what I'm envisioning here, and it's what the Samura guys have talked about,
1769
02:10:10.865 --> 02:10:11.845
1770
02:10:12.225 --> 02:10:13.925
would be post mixed. Yep.
1771
02:10:16.145 --> 02:10:17.925
So it just it just furthers
1772
02:10:18.700 --> 02:10:21.360
the privacy guarantees that you would get
1773
02:10:22.620 --> 02:10:24.620
rather than if you were just plain,
1774
02:10:27.255 --> 02:10:31.675
if you were just just purely using CoinJoin. Right? Is that really different
1775
02:10:32.215 --> 02:10:33.995
1776
02:10:38.800 --> 02:10:41.780
1777
02:10:43.835 --> 02:10:44.974
1778
02:10:45.594 --> 02:10:46.094
1779
02:10:46.635 --> 02:10:47.594
That is a good question.
1780
02:10:48.074 --> 02:10:58.560
Yeah. I maybe maybe not. Maybe not if they're the same liquidity pool and you're swapping with your own liquidity pool and except that I think it makes the liquidity pool denser.
1781
02:11:00.055 --> 02:11:06.395
Right? Like, you're just adding another link between 2 rounds within that wider liquidity pool that didn't exist previously.
1782
02:11:08.440 --> 02:11:11.100
And maybe maybe you have time as a constraint.
1783
02:11:11.800 --> 02:11:13.820
Right? We both know that remixing
1784
02:11:14.360 --> 02:11:16.620
and the the way Whirlpool's implemented
1785
02:11:18.105 --> 02:11:19.005
takes a while.
1786
02:11:19.945 --> 02:11:21.485
But if you have a time constraint,
1787
02:11:22.425 --> 02:11:27.980
and let's say you're a mobile user and you just do one Whirlpool round and then you go into a coin swap,
1788
02:11:29.160 --> 02:11:32.140
you're getting probably significantly more privacy,
1789
02:11:32.920 --> 02:11:34.435
than you would otherwise. Right?
1790
02:11:38.915 --> 02:11:39.575
1791
02:11:40.515 --> 02:11:41.015
1792
02:11:43.520 --> 02:11:46.180
I don't know. We're on the bleeding edge of all this shit.
1793
02:11:46.560 --> 02:11:48.260
No one really wants to talk about it.
1794
02:11:49.120 --> 02:11:53.195
And and so I I I think it's the same situation for atomic swaps.
1795
02:11:54.455 --> 02:11:58.155
Right? So coin swaps are atomic swaps that happen on Bitcoin only,
1796
02:11:58.690 --> 02:12:01.430
and then atomic swaps is more generally
1797
02:12:02.130 --> 02:12:05.590
alluded to as going into an alt chain and then switching back.
1798
02:12:06.210 --> 02:12:06.710
Yeah.
1799
02:12:07.764 --> 02:12:14.105
The most common one being cited is is Monero because it has confidential transactions already built in
1800
02:12:15.760 --> 02:12:16.820
and ring signatures.
1801
02:12:18.160 --> 02:12:21.460
So, basically, every Monero transaction is a coin join.
1802
02:12:22.880 --> 02:12:25.220
And it's the same thing, because you hear the Monero
1803
02:12:26.775 --> 02:12:32.155
stands, they they'll they'll say that they don't wanna swap with a Bitcoin user because they don't want that Bitcoin history.
1804
02:12:33.790 --> 02:12:34.290
1805
02:12:34.750 --> 02:12:37.970
1806
02:12:40.165 --> 02:12:45.305
and this is one of the the interesting back and forths I have with the Monero group is that,
1807
02:12:45.685 --> 02:13:00.535
you know, they say that coin join is not something that should be worked on. Like, you should just switch to Monero, but at the same time, in the same breath, they'll say they won't swap they won't trade their Monero for Bitcoin because the majority of Bitcoin that's being traded for Monero has bad history attached to it.
1808
02:13:01.235 --> 02:13:01.955
Okay. So,
1809
02:13:02.515 --> 02:13:06.935
anything that you swap with Monero should automatically be coin joined. It should all be post mix.
1810
02:13:11.220 --> 02:13:11.720
1811
02:13:12.420 --> 02:13:13.960
1812
02:13:14.805 --> 02:13:24.505
we should make as many transactions as possible coin join. Literally, everything we talk about should be a post mix tool, basically, after coin join. Like, the the default on chain should be
1813
02:13:25.610 --> 02:13:32.989
coin join. Even if it's even if it's a fake coin join like a stone wall, and it just looks like a coin join, it should at least be a decoy coin join.
1814
02:13:33.395 --> 02:13:41.655
Now the the major issue there is block space and fees. Right? Because if you're faking a coin join every transaction, you're gonna pay significantly more in fees.
1815
02:13:51.415 --> 02:13:54.614
But I, you know, I think privacy is worth it. I I don't know. I,
1816
02:13:55.495 --> 02:13:58.075
it it's it's definitely not an easy solution.
1817
02:13:58.989 --> 02:14:00.849
There's no there's no easy solution.
1818
02:14:04.429 --> 02:14:11.795
No. There's nothing. Yeah. I mean, people can use wallets that don't do that. I just think that we should be pushing at least the
1819
02:14:12.175 --> 02:14:20.690
the free open source wallets that the community really the hardcore community likes should should all have, you know, some kind of collaborative transaction tools built in automatically.
1820
02:14:23.150 --> 02:14:33.805
1821
02:14:34.580 --> 02:14:40.760
I like to believe that things can always be easier and make more more sense, and the sort of UI can help help with that. So,
1822
02:14:41.140 --> 02:14:42.520
yeah, I think that that's
1823
02:14:42.905 --> 02:14:45.005
definitely something that we can work on.
1824
02:14:45.385 --> 02:14:47.645
You know, now that we've got the kind of basic,
1825
02:14:48.745 --> 02:14:55.090
we we're sort of starting to figure out what works and what doesn't, not only from an implementation, but also from an incentive
1826
02:14:55.469 --> 02:15:03.034
point of view, I think we can start tweak the sort of UI, which is which always comes later on. You know? You kind of you have to,
1827
02:15:04.054 --> 02:15:06.074
just get the thing to work first, and then
1828
02:15:06.430 --> 02:15:11.090
you can kind of iterate over the UI and kind of make it easy for people to use. Because,
1829
02:15:11.470 --> 02:15:17.775
you know, I mean, I I've I've sort of been through Will Whirlpool, and it's it's great, but it's it certainly wasn't obvious
1830
02:15:18.235 --> 02:15:24.635
to me at all times exactly what was going going on. I kind of had to read and go back back to the docs and stuff. So,
1831
02:15:25.580 --> 02:15:27.440
I'm sure that I'm not alone in that.
1832
02:15:28.140 --> 02:15:33.040
And, you know, that's what good UX does is it kind of just makes it makes it easier.
1833
02:15:33.625 --> 02:15:35.085
You kind of you feel
1834
02:15:35.625 --> 02:15:37.885
secure and in control as you're doing it.
1835
02:15:38.665 --> 02:15:40.685
1836
02:15:41.810 --> 02:15:42.310
to
1837
02:15:42.850 --> 02:15:44.630
know all the answers. Right?
1838
02:15:48.050 --> 02:15:51.394
I just I just I think the status quo right now
1839
02:15:51.855 --> 02:15:53.474
is so poor for privacy
1840
02:15:53.934 --> 02:15:55.954
that these discussions need to be had.
1841
02:15:57.510 --> 02:16:01.449
These discussions need to be had, and we need to push the ecosystem forward because,
1842
02:16:02.310 --> 02:16:11.725
if we stay at the status quo, the end result is 99% of Bitcoin users' full financial transaction history is being tracked constantly relatively easily.
1843
02:16:13.450 --> 02:16:15.230
And the discussion, it just isn't
1844
02:16:15.690 --> 02:16:24.844
happening really. And I I I the one of the reasons I started dispatch in the first place was because I think these topics need, you know, open discussion on a constant basis.
1845
02:16:28.745 --> 02:16:52.580
1846
02:16:53.600 --> 02:16:55.220
you were basically you know,
1847
02:16:56.535 --> 02:17:04.315
It was just gonna gonna be super, super, super hard. So now it's it's just a few years down down the line, and it's become much easier.
1848
02:17:05.590 --> 02:17:08.409
So it's really about trying to get the incentive
1849
02:17:08.790 --> 02:17:11.050
right and then get the sort of UX right,
1850
02:17:11.510 --> 02:17:13.529
in order to make these these things
1851
02:17:14.795 --> 02:17:19.775
become part of people's lives. So it's just become some something that you do because
1852
02:17:20.556 --> 02:17:24.311
you you realize that it's the best idea. And,
1853
02:17:25.011 --> 02:17:27.190
if you don't do it, you're likely to
1854
02:17:27.570 --> 02:17:31.045
worry about it, or it's gonna become the sort of mental load that I was
1855
02:17:31.685 --> 02:17:35.064
talk talking about earlier. You know, you're kind of thinking, oh, well,
1856
02:17:35.525 --> 02:17:42.920
I haven't done that right. So now people are gonna know about my transactions. They may gonna gonna know how much I'm being paid. They're gonna know where I spend.
1857
02:17:43.300 --> 02:17:49.455
You know, all of these things that we think about that other people are not think thinking about, that I think
1858
02:17:49.835 --> 02:17:52.016
needs to become, you know, clearer. And,
1859
02:17:53.355 --> 02:17:55.210
I I just have a belief that good
1860
02:17:55.930 --> 02:18:00.670
good soft soft software can help make it obvious. You know, if you can, for example,
1861
02:18:01.290 --> 02:18:03.150
you know, show somebody in a UI
1862
02:18:03.530 --> 02:18:04.030
how
1863
02:18:04.516 --> 02:18:05.575
the different UTXOs,
1864
02:18:06.436 --> 02:18:25.825
or difference of TXOs as they are spent are connected to each other. You can kinda kind of say, well, did you know that Joe Blogs, who you paid the other day, knows how much you earn because your the salary went straight up to him, and the change then came back. It was a round amount as you were saying saying that. So those kind of things
1865
02:18:26.285 --> 02:18:29.186
people don't think think about, but it's mainly just because they're hidden.
1866
02:18:29.930 --> 02:18:30.670
And as
1867
02:18:31.050 --> 02:18:35.630
Bitcoin itself and, you know, the way that it works becomes more
1868
02:18:36.090 --> 02:18:36.750
well understood,
1869
02:18:37.665 --> 02:18:44.405
So, you know, the soft software can can evolve and just show you what's going going on. And that's kind of
1870
02:18:45.970 --> 02:18:47.430
the the ethos behind
1871
02:18:47.970 --> 02:18:50.310
showing as much detail as I do in
1872
02:18:50.689 --> 02:18:55.614
the wallet that I build. It's just, you know, I think it's important because if you don't know the stuff,
1873
02:18:56.234 --> 02:18:56.895
then, ultimately,
1874
02:18:57.354 --> 02:19:00.255
it's gonna hurt hurt you. You you need to understand
1875
02:19:00.740 --> 02:19:12.136
how the protocol works to some degree. Otherwise, you're always going to be you know, there's always gonna be people who unders who understand that kind of use that knowledge against against against you, at least can.
1876
02:19:12.835 --> 02:19:17.395
1877
02:19:18.391 --> 02:19:20.570
because it requires some responsibility of the user.
1878
02:19:21.190 --> 02:19:22.730
So I I don't expect
1879
02:19:23.351 --> 02:19:26.730
that we will have a 100% penetration with these types of things,
1880
02:19:28.215 --> 02:19:35.435
but I want it to get to a point where someone who realizes the need is able to access them and use them effectively
1881
02:19:36.181 --> 02:19:40.360
without too much effort. I I think a perfect example right now
1882
02:19:41.061 --> 02:19:41.880
is this,
1883
02:19:42.181 --> 02:19:44.601
you know, this El Salvador legal tender law.
1884
02:19:44.995 --> 02:19:49.095
Is, like, if we have people right now, you know, buying sandwiches and stuff,
1885
02:19:51.315 --> 02:20:05.796
we we don't want the person they pay for the sandwich to know how much money they have or how much money they're making, and we don't want their government to know either. And we don't want the 1,000,000 different corporations that all want to leverage that information for ads and monetization,
1886
02:20:06.976 --> 02:20:09.775
to have that information either. And it's it's a very
1887
02:20:10.450 --> 02:20:13.110
this is not a, you know, an abstract
1888
02:20:13.570 --> 02:20:15.750
goal. This is this is a very
1889
02:20:17.090 --> 02:20:17.590
realistic,
1890
02:20:18.426 --> 02:20:22.846
pragmatic thing that if we have people spending Bitcoin on a day to day basis
1891
02:20:23.386 --> 02:20:24.285
using Bitcoin,
1892
02:20:27.140 --> 02:20:31.800
the default should be relatively reasonable in terms of privacy, and they shouldn't they shouldn't
1893
02:20:32.180 --> 02:20:35.399
have to go above and beyond to try and protect themselves.
1894
02:20:37.615 --> 02:20:46.330
You know, 1 we're talking about incentives a lot here. And, I mean, one of the things that that we're really up against is this insidious KYC that's just spreading
1895
02:20:46.870 --> 02:20:50.490
and regulatory compliance and air quotes that's spreading through the industry.
1896
02:20:54.056 --> 02:20:58.395
And no one really wants to talk up against it because it's how they pay their rent.
1897
02:20:58.775 --> 02:21:01.675
You know? It's it's how it's these companies,
1898
02:21:02.311 --> 02:21:05.051
these regulated companies have the most money.
1899
02:21:05.670 --> 02:21:07.370
They're the most profitable businesses,
1900
02:21:09.190 --> 02:21:09.690
and,
1901
02:21:10.065 --> 02:21:11.766
you know, a lot of
1902
02:21:12.546 --> 02:21:18.806
influential Bitcoin people, you know, make make a lot of money off the backs of those companies and their regulatory compliance.
1903
02:21:19.400 --> 02:21:25.740
And the fact that we have these large KYC databases being built up on on whose transaction is which
1904
02:21:27.596 --> 02:21:30.976
pushes back against basically everything we're fighting for.
1905
02:21:32.235 --> 02:21:33.056
And it's
1906
02:21:34.290 --> 02:21:41.670
it's a very dark incentive that people don't really discuss. I I had Belcher and and Waxwing on on the show,
1907
02:21:43.875 --> 02:21:45.735
And I said to them, you know, it's
1908
02:21:46.195 --> 02:21:53.016
it's you know, when we're designing these incentives when you're designing these incentives about people using transactions more privately,
1909
02:21:53.460 --> 02:21:58.840
we're up against the BlockFi's of the world. You know? Michael Saylor posted a tweet that had,
1910
02:22:00.945 --> 02:22:03.686
like, 2,000 retweets or something like that,
1911
02:22:04.705 --> 02:22:05.425
and it was,
1912
02:22:06.305 --> 02:22:09.445
the ideal mobile wallet is a KYC wallet
1913
02:22:10.480 --> 02:22:12.820
that automatically gives you a loan
1914
02:22:13.600 --> 02:22:14.820
in US dollars
1915
02:22:15.200 --> 02:22:16.180
based on
1916
02:22:17.825 --> 02:22:19.765
on on your Bitcoin as collateral,
1917
02:22:22.145 --> 02:22:26.965
and then you spend that instead of of spending Bitcoin directly. Right? And and
1918
02:22:27.480 --> 02:22:27.980
when
1919
02:22:28.440 --> 02:22:30.700
when these incentive models are being designed,
1920
02:22:31.400 --> 02:22:37.455
a user is gonna consider that as an option over whatever the private alternative is. Right? Like, they're going to,
1921
02:22:39.774 --> 02:22:43.075
consider that interest payment that they could get if they
1922
02:22:43.511 --> 02:22:48.330
loaned out their Bitcoin with some centralized regulatory compliant non privacy focused service,
1923
02:22:49.030 --> 02:22:51.525
versus using, private transactions. Right?
1924
02:22:52.006 --> 02:23:02.230
1925
02:23:02.610 --> 02:23:07.115
in air quotes, print their own Bitcoin in the back background. You know? And just
1926
02:23:07.596 --> 02:23:09.215
because, you know you know,
1927
02:23:09.596 --> 02:23:16.320
unless we sort of can withdraw it and they can be left high and high and dry by basically saying that they have,
1928
02:23:17.520 --> 02:23:19.540
you know, more than they actually do,
1929
02:23:19.920 --> 02:23:27.636
then we really don't have too many weapons against against that. So for me, that is a huge risk and, you know, something that,
1930
02:23:28.735 --> 02:23:30.516
I don't think is talked about enough.
1931
02:23:32.096 --> 02:23:35.075
1932
02:23:36.460 --> 02:23:37.200
1933
02:23:37.660 --> 02:23:38.880
listening to you guys.
1934
02:23:39.979 --> 02:23:41.760
Yeah. I I I guess,
1935
02:23:44.595 --> 02:23:47.095
I I I lost my my stream of fault.
1936
02:23:49.635 --> 02:23:57.641
1937
02:23:59.460 --> 02:24:01.881
Is it like, am am I right to be,
1938
02:24:02.855 --> 02:24:03.355
you
1939
02:24:03.815 --> 02:24:07.195
know I I could give you know, maybe maybe
1940
02:24:08.296 --> 02:24:14.250
I will admit that I was, you know, a little bit too excited about the price increase. I always am.
1941
02:24:15.830 --> 02:24:21.675
You know, between me and the freaks, like, the reason I say stay humble all the time is because I'm never humble in bull markets.
1942
02:24:22.535 --> 02:24:27.410
So I'm just constantly trying to remind myself, and I might as well remind the freaks at the same time.
1943
02:24:28.851 --> 02:24:35.190
So maybe I got I definitely got a little bit too far ahead of myself, especially when I was in all caps saying 200 k by conference day.
1944
02:24:36.555 --> 02:24:41.915
You know, that kind of half started as a joke because you just get so much engagement whenever you say it.
1945
02:24:42.395 --> 02:24:44.975
But I kept saying it. So, anyway, I deserve
1946
02:24:45.330 --> 02:24:46.790
to fucking eat crow on that.
1947
02:24:47.410 --> 02:24:47.910
But
1948
02:24:48.450 --> 02:24:50.390
mempools being completely empty
1949
02:24:51.410 --> 02:24:52.230
has completely
1950
02:24:52.610 --> 02:24:55.265
thrown me for a loop. Like, this is not,
1951
02:24:58.365 --> 02:25:10.079
like, I was way fucking wrong about this. I could give 2 shits about the price. I'm a long term investor in Bitcoin. You know? I I I practice what I preach. You know? I don't sell Bitcoin. I fucking
1952
02:25:10.686 --> 02:25:17.105
stay humble, Stack Sats, in that regard. I just constantly I'm just accumulating as much Bitcoin as I can fucking get.
1953
02:25:17.885 --> 02:25:24.449
So when the price goes down, it's, to me, it's it's truly stacker's paradise. It's just more time to accumulate.
1954
02:25:24.909 --> 02:25:30.050
I've I've con I'm just fiat mining. I'm making my fiat salary, and I'm just putting into Bitcoin.
1955
02:25:33.295 --> 02:25:36.354
The the mempool being completely clear right now,
1956
02:25:37.215 --> 02:25:39.795
amid a 50% hash rate reduction,
1957
02:25:42.400 --> 02:25:42.900
is
1958
02:25:45.760 --> 02:25:46.820
just seems
1959
02:25:47.200 --> 02:25:47.700
fucking
1960
02:25:48.535 --> 02:25:50.075
like a bad sign. Am
1961
02:25:51.255 --> 02:25:51.915
I wrong?
1962
02:25:53.335 --> 02:25:59.340
1963
02:26:00.120 --> 02:26:01.500
you know, up and down.
1964
02:26:02.120 --> 02:26:07.101
You know, I think if, you know, as you were saying, you know, the number of people in
1965
02:26:07.436 --> 02:26:10.575
coin joins and the like is not really material
1966
02:26:10.955 --> 02:26:12.976
to drive mempool usage.
1967
02:26:13.915 --> 02:26:22.220
In fact, most of the stuff that we talk talk about is not really material to drive. You know, if if if we look at the number of blockchain.comwallets,
1968
02:26:23.080 --> 02:26:24.620
we shouldn't be too surprised
1969
02:26:25.075 --> 02:26:25.575
that
1970
02:26:26.275 --> 02:26:29.975
when the price is not going up or down, when it's kind of just hanging around the same,
1971
02:26:30.595 --> 02:26:33.335
then the mempool just stays empty because,
1972
02:26:34.170 --> 02:26:38.670
people are you know, they've they've kind of those who are gonna sell have obviously sold.
1973
02:26:39.051 --> 02:26:44.415
Those, who were waiting on the sidelines to buy have obviously still still on the side the sidelines.
1974
02:26:45.835 --> 02:26:50.734
And the majority of Bitcoin's usage is driven by people trying to,
1975
02:26:52.040 --> 02:26:52.620
you know,
1976
02:26:53.000 --> 02:26:53.500
basically,
1977
02:26:55.400 --> 02:26:57.580
make or or not lose,
1978
02:26:57.960 --> 02:26:59.580
whatever they have put
1979
02:27:00.484 --> 02:27:02.825
sort of, into it. So, you know,
1980
02:27:03.604 --> 02:27:16.560
it won't stay this way forever, and and the mempool usage will go up again. And maybe it'll clear share again, and perhaps it won't. You know? At some point, it weren't. Right? At some point, the number of users who just kinda use that?
1981
02:27:16.976 --> 02:27:20.275
Yeah. Because, you know, at some point, the number of users who will
1982
02:27:20.815 --> 02:27:22.995
just be using it, like you and I do,
1983
02:27:24.096 --> 02:27:34.990
will get to a point where the block size is just too small. Right? That that day will come. It's obviously not here here today. We obviously don't have the usage in the world today
1984
02:27:35.395 --> 02:27:36.535
for that to be true.
1985
02:27:37.315 --> 02:27:42.695
For now, it's still a slow price driven, you know, thing. And and we shouldn't be too surprised about
1986
02:27:43.190 --> 02:27:47.851
the 50% drop in hash rate because if mempool's pretty much empty,
1987
02:27:48.230 --> 02:27:53.165
it's you know, even if the, you know, the the hash hash rate drops, it's not gonna suddenly
1988
02:27:53.945 --> 02:28:02.141
change that all that much. I mean, you know, we we lose a few minutes perhaps, but it's not really a major effect. So Well, my point is my point is
1989
02:28:03.240 --> 02:28:05.900
1990
02:28:06.601 --> 02:28:17.155
hash is it where it's trending down, like, right now, where we're projecting a negative difficulty adjustment after the previous one, which was also significant the biggest negative we've ever had,
1991
02:28:17.615 --> 02:28:28.030
1992
02:28:28.476 --> 02:28:32.895
backlog when this have have happened, I think we would absolutely be feeling the pressure today.
1993
02:28:33.596 --> 02:28:38.100
I think we'd be paying high high fees. But just the fact that it is empty,
1994
02:28:38.560 --> 02:28:42.420
you know, and the price hasn't moved moved much, I think,
1995
02:28:42.960 --> 02:28:46.580
there's no particular reason why it would suddenly fill that I can think of.
1996
02:28:47.426 --> 02:28:51.125
1997
02:28:51.745 --> 02:28:58.620
1998
02:28:59.979 --> 02:29:05.439
1999
02:29:08.635 --> 02:29:12.476
2000
02:29:13.035 --> 02:29:14.255
maybe it's a vacation
2001
02:29:14.635 --> 02:29:15.855
effect. I don't know.
2002
02:29:16.600 --> 02:29:25.100
2003
02:29:29.074 --> 02:29:30.935
To me, it's a sign
2004
02:29:32.034 --> 02:29:33.494
well, first of all,
2005
02:29:33.955 --> 02:29:34.455
clearly,
2006
02:29:36.029 --> 02:29:40.449
you know, not enough of the freaks are using CoinJoin. Like, CoinJoin should be a,
2007
02:29:41.229 --> 02:29:45.255
you know, buyer of last resort of of block space. It should just be a constant
2008
02:29:46.115 --> 02:29:47.335
fee pressure thing.
2009
02:29:48.115 --> 02:29:53.175
We we should have so many people using CoinJoin that there's just always a reserve demand
2010
02:29:53.620 --> 02:29:54.520
for block space.
2011
02:29:55.700 --> 02:29:57.720
So that's unfortunate to see.
2012
02:29:58.420 --> 02:30:00.280
And then the second thing is I think
2013
02:30:01.860 --> 02:30:02.680
I think it's,
2014
02:30:03.226 --> 02:30:11.005
you know, there's there's still a shit ton of traders, Craig, that are that are trading these these price movements even when we're in sideways zone.
2015
02:30:12.000 --> 02:30:14.260
So I don't think the traders have left us.
2016
02:30:14.960 --> 02:30:17.220
To me, it's more of a sign
2017
02:30:17.760 --> 02:30:18.260
that
2018
02:30:20.675 --> 02:30:22.854
that that people are using these custodial
2019
02:30:23.954 --> 02:30:30.740
they're using these custodial regulated services rather than actually holding their own keys and using Bitcoin. I mean,
2020
02:30:31.280 --> 02:30:32.180
even if
2021
02:30:32.960 --> 02:30:33.780
you are
2022
02:30:35.040 --> 02:30:35.860
the least
2023
02:30:36.226 --> 02:30:41.766
consumer of Block space as a sovereign Bitcoin user, you're still should be making,
2024
02:30:42.145 --> 02:30:46.830
you know, a withdrawal a week from whatever your regulated custodian is.
2025
02:30:48.330 --> 02:30:54.404
I'm not even saying you put it into CoinJoin, which you should, but, you know, if if you're just making a a transaction
2026
02:30:54.785 --> 02:30:55.285
to
2027
02:30:55.825 --> 02:30:58.484
your cold storage and you're stacking to cold storage,
2028
02:30:59.470 --> 02:31:02.130
you should at least be making 1 transaction a week,
2029
02:31:04.510 --> 02:31:11.735
or or one transaction every 2 weeks. How many people are doing that right now? Like, are there are there more than 5,000 of us?
2030
02:31:12.755 --> 02:31:15.976
2031
02:31:16.460 --> 02:31:19.439
when they buy and sell, then why did the mempool,
2032
02:31:20.939 --> 02:31:25.120
go up so much when the price was going up? Because, you know,
2033
02:31:25.515 --> 02:31:28.255
in theory, they wouldn't be making on chain, you know,
2034
02:31:31.835 --> 02:31:37.290
transactions at that time if it was all just being done with sort of money behind the scenes?
2035
02:31:38.550 --> 02:31:39.050
2036
02:31:39.990 --> 02:31:43.450
I mean, there's there's 2 theories that I'm working with.
2037
02:31:45.245 --> 02:31:46.545
The first is,
2038
02:31:47.806 --> 02:31:51.426
you know, leverage Bitcoin trading on bucket shops,
2039
02:31:54.431 --> 02:31:57.490
where where you have and we even saw, you know, before,
2040
02:31:58.671 --> 02:31:59.171
BitMex
2041
02:31:59.711 --> 02:32:04.675
cleaned up shop and started adding KYC and and truly blocking Americans.
2042
02:32:05.295 --> 02:32:10.595
Like, we saw hedge funds that were acquiring Bitcoin whether through OTC or some other method,
2043
02:32:11.580 --> 02:32:13.601
and then they were sending it to
2044
02:32:14.460 --> 02:32:18.160
BitMex or or where whatever bucket shop they wanted to use
2045
02:32:19.745 --> 02:32:25.845
to do leverage Bitcoin trading, and they didn't really trust that much funds on there, so they were constantly moving back and forth.
2046
02:32:26.705 --> 02:32:31.870
And then the other thing is is Shitcoin trading. Like, the Shitcoin market has just completely gotten
2047
02:32:32.330 --> 02:32:32.830
destroyed,
2048
02:32:33.690 --> 02:32:35.470
because I guess my thought is
2049
02:32:37.725 --> 02:32:38.784
is, unfortunately,
2050
02:32:40.205 --> 02:32:42.864
if if you're a regulated,
2051
02:32:44.649 --> 02:32:50.670
you know, semi wealthy person in America or one of these developed countries, your main incentive
2052
02:32:51.395 --> 02:32:54.936
to to leave your regulated custodial exchange
2053
02:32:55.636 --> 02:32:57.395
is to go send it to,
2054
02:32:57.875 --> 02:33:01.096
Shitcoin bucket shop and try and buy some shitcoins.
2055
02:33:04.500 --> 02:33:09.080
2056
02:33:11.755 --> 02:33:19.135
2057
02:33:19.670 --> 02:33:28.410
But they just always have, like, shenanigans happening over there, so even who even knows? Like, right now, fees are up because there's some, Uniswap clone that's spamming the chain supposedly.
2058
02:33:32.976 --> 02:33:34.115
2059
02:33:34.575 --> 02:33:36.835
your theory might might be right, mate.
2060
02:33:39.100 --> 02:33:39.840
The beauty
2061
02:33:40.699 --> 02:33:42.800
of Bitcoin is that we just don't know.
2062
02:33:43.899 --> 02:33:44.300
It's
2063
02:33:45.235 --> 02:33:54.615
2064
02:33:56.030 --> 02:34:00.770
gets you into the next block. It's not even, like, kind of empty. It's it's fucking barren,
2065
02:34:01.471 --> 02:34:04.050
and and and my concern is
2066
02:34:05.114 --> 02:34:08.574
that it shows that we're way earlier than we thought we were,
2067
02:34:09.194 --> 02:34:13.135
even I thought we were. And I think I thought we were were earlier than most people think,
2068
02:34:15.060 --> 02:34:16.200
which is fine
2069
02:34:17.779 --> 02:34:22.200
in the grand scheme of things, except that it means we're more vulnerable.
2070
02:34:23.135 --> 02:34:26.755
There's less sovereign Bitcoin holders than people think there are.
2071
02:34:27.295 --> 02:34:28.515
2072
02:34:28.975 --> 02:34:30.035
with that. 100%.
2073
02:34:31.280 --> 02:34:36.420
That is, as I said, that is my biggest concern. I think if we actually knew how many
2074
02:34:36.880 --> 02:34:37.380
noncustodial
2075
02:34:38.645 --> 02:34:47.386
Bitcoin holders there were, we would be shocked at that figure as being as low as it was. I I I yeah. We have a long way to go.
2076
02:34:47.721 --> 02:34:54.221
2077
02:34:55.405 --> 02:34:59.984
2078
02:35:00.285 --> 02:35:04.511
wallet dev in a room and asked them if they had, you know, 100 of thousands
2079
02:35:05.370 --> 02:35:13.985
of users, they're just saying say no. You know, it's not it really isn't the the sort of sort of case. I mean, the fact that we still can't outdo
2080
02:35:14.926 --> 02:35:15.426
shittyblockchain.com,
2081
02:35:17.005 --> 02:35:17.985
I mean, really,
2082
02:35:18.365 --> 02:35:21.105
it just shows we have a long way to way to go.
2083
02:35:22.489 --> 02:35:24.750
And, you know, that's that's kind of okay.
2084
02:35:25.290 --> 02:35:28.350
I'm not too concerned if you look at the growth of the Internet.
2085
02:35:29.369 --> 02:35:30.350
It did take
2086
02:35:30.835 --> 02:35:36.135
decades. You know, it feels like it happened very, very fast, but, I mean, it did take quite a bit of time.
2087
02:35:37.715 --> 02:35:40.295
It gets to a certain point where
2088
02:35:40.740 --> 02:35:45.960
it becomes a need to know rather than a sort of a nice nice to know,
2089
02:35:46.980 --> 02:35:50.005
skill set. We're not there today. We're definitely not.
2090
02:35:51.365 --> 02:35:59.385
So when that happens, I I can't say, but, hopefully, you know, in the next 2 to 3 years. And then I think we'll see a bit of a step change
2091
02:35:59.830 --> 02:36:01.290
As we kind of saw
2092
02:36:01.910 --> 02:36:04.330
around the year, you know, 2,001
2093
02:36:04.870 --> 02:36:06.170
to 2,005
2094
02:36:06.550 --> 02:36:11.364
or 6, you know, we really saw a big change in the number of people who understood
2095
02:36:11.665 --> 02:36:18.710
how to email, how to browse browse the web, how to kind of, you know, just get their shit done online. And
2096
02:36:19.409 --> 02:36:23.350
Bitcoin is definitely pre that. It's not in that space yet.
2097
02:36:23.766 --> 02:36:24.266
So,
2098
02:36:24.886 --> 02:36:33.510
you know, we need to go through, you know, the sort of bill cycle that we're in now and maybe one one more in order to get to that sort of point.
2099
02:36:34.310 --> 02:36:35.689
So, yeah, we're early.
2100
02:36:39.270 --> 02:36:40.729
2101
02:36:45.205 --> 02:36:45.865
2102
02:36:46.645 --> 02:36:51.290
Yeah. I I agree 100% with with that. We I I think we are, like,
2103
02:36:51.930 --> 02:36:53.870
late seventies, early eighties,
2104
02:36:54.410 --> 02:36:55.870
in computing now.
2105
02:36:58.170 --> 02:36:59.710
Still still the the
2106
02:37:00.055 --> 02:37:02.234
period where people are building cases
2107
02:37:03.175 --> 02:37:04.635
out of wood in a garage.
2108
02:37:07.255 --> 02:37:08.470
2109
02:37:09.029 --> 02:37:11.689
2110
02:37:12.310 --> 02:37:12.810
overestimating
2111
02:37:13.189 --> 02:37:14.330
some numbers. Like,
2112
02:37:15.350 --> 02:37:16.475
even things like
2113
02:37:17.034 --> 02:37:17.614
how many,
2114
02:37:18.875 --> 02:37:21.055
toll nodes are around on the Internet.
2115
02:37:21.675 --> 02:37:23.055
Actually, I I learned
2116
02:37:23.835 --> 02:37:26.590
the real number quite recently, and it's scaring
2117
02:37:27.050 --> 02:37:28.350
2118
02:37:29.050 --> 02:37:30.029
2119
02:37:30.810 --> 02:37:33.310
2120
02:37:34.306 --> 02:37:35.365
sovereign Bitcoin
2121
02:37:35.905 --> 02:37:37.125
node users. Right?
2122
02:37:38.065 --> 02:37:39.285
2123
02:37:39.745 --> 02:37:42.325
it doesn't include the the user
2124
02:37:43.550 --> 02:37:44.850
troubles. It just,
2125
02:37:45.310 --> 02:37:47.409
counts the relays and exit nodes.
2126
02:37:47.869 --> 02:37:49.489
But, still, it's it's crazy
2127
02:37:49.949 --> 02:37:51.409
it's crazy small, actually.
2128
02:37:51.885 --> 02:37:52.385
And,
2129
02:37:52.845 --> 02:37:58.864
maybe the numbers we see for Bitcoin nodes and for Lightning nodes are actually accurate, and there isn't that many hiding.
2130
02:38:00.931 --> 02:38:04.210
2131
02:38:05.330 --> 02:38:06.210
a good good,
2132
02:38:06.745 --> 02:38:16.445
good username in, on Twitch coming into the live chat saying that I've flipped bearish. I've not flipped bearish. I am more bullish than 99% of people on this fucking planet.
2133
02:38:16.971 --> 02:38:24.351
Okay? But it's important to be realistic in terms of sovereign Bitcoin users, and that's that's different than price, by the way.
2134
02:38:25.450 --> 02:38:28.975
I think it's it's detached from price to a degree
2135
02:38:29.354 --> 02:38:32.335
because we do have a lot of people who buy Bitcoin,
2136
02:38:32.795 --> 02:38:35.710
and they do increase the price as long as there's not rehypothecation,
2137
02:38:36.250 --> 02:38:39.630
which was we're early still on. I don't think there is really.
2138
02:38:40.490 --> 02:38:45.675
So when Michael Sailor, for instance, goes, and I know he's a very controversial figure, goes and buys a bunch of Bitcoin
2139
02:38:46.056 --> 02:38:49.755
and then sends it from his custodial broker to his custodial wallet,
2140
02:38:50.455 --> 02:38:52.715
that does increase buy pressure.
2141
02:38:53.061 --> 02:38:54.920
So I think most people are underestimating
2142
02:38:55.221 --> 02:38:56.040
price still.
2143
02:38:58.020 --> 02:39:04.555
And I I I I stand by the fact that I think people will be extremely surprised to the upside in terms in terms of price.
2144
02:39:05.835 --> 02:39:07.135
I think people are
2145
02:39:07.515 --> 02:39:11.455
greatly overestimating the number of sovereign Bitcoin users. So
2146
02:39:11.760 --> 02:39:15.699
let's let's just go for through some estimates. I'm just curious before we
2147
02:39:16.159 --> 02:39:17.140
wrap this up.
2148
02:39:19.604 --> 02:39:21.785
So how many how many people
2149
02:39:22.245 --> 02:39:27.545
got look. Once again, there's no way for us to easily calculate these numbers,
2150
02:39:28.329 --> 02:39:34.029
which is why proof of work is so important. Like, the reason we have distributed proof of work is because you have this verifiable,
2151
02:39:35.770 --> 02:39:39.055
real work that anyone can verify and know it exists.
2152
02:39:40.875 --> 02:39:46.495
But when it comes to user numbers and everything and and node numbers, there's no way to prove one node, one user.
2153
02:39:47.660 --> 02:39:49.360
And there's no way to definitively
2154
02:39:49.740 --> 02:39:50.240
prove
2155
02:39:50.700 --> 02:39:53.200
how many individual users are out there.
2156
02:39:55.605 --> 02:40:02.025
Maybe it's a little bit easier because people have such horrible privacy right now, but you're still making a guess. You're making educated guess. And, ideally,
2157
02:40:02.721 --> 02:40:11.695
where I want us to be in 5 years is I I don't want Glassnode to have a business model. Like, I want them to look at the chain and just have no fucking idea what the fuck is going on.
2158
02:40:13.615 --> 02:40:15.315
But where we stand right now,
2159
02:40:16.016 --> 02:40:21.075
how many how many individuals around the world do we think are holding their own keys?
2160
02:40:24.880 --> 02:40:26.020
We'll start with Craig.
2161
02:40:27.520 --> 02:40:29.939
2162
02:40:33.445 --> 02:40:33.945
Sure.
2163
02:40:35.445 --> 02:40:37.705
Probably less than a 100,000 maths.
2164
02:40:39.880 --> 02:40:48.859
2165
02:40:49.985 --> 02:40:55.685
Okay. So so all these numbers when people say, like, there's, like, 30,000,000 Bitcoin users or whatever,
2166
02:40:57.800 --> 02:40:59.420
They're just completely off base.
2167
02:41:01.880 --> 02:41:02.380
2168
02:41:02.760 --> 02:41:08.975
2169
02:41:09.436 --> 02:41:25.926
2170
02:41:26.306 --> 02:41:34.110
you know, kind of point on the plus side is that, you know, if if if you were around at that time and you were sort of part of that
2171
02:41:36.410 --> 02:41:36.910
kind
2172
02:41:37.610 --> 02:41:38.270
of journey,
2173
02:41:39.210 --> 02:41:40.091
of being into
2174
02:41:40.765 --> 02:41:43.585
you know, whether you owned a Commodore 64 or,
2175
02:41:44.045 --> 02:41:50.181
some some some Sinclair or you know, that that kind of world was the most
2176
02:41:50.960 --> 02:41:53.940
creative time in computing that I've ever known.
2177
02:41:54.400 --> 02:41:56.341
It was really amazing, and
2178
02:41:56.881 --> 02:41:59.301
it's it's just fucking cool to be
2179
02:41:59.984 --> 02:42:04.325
to be, you know, part of this at that time. You know? I I have no doubt
2180
02:42:04.785 --> 02:42:05.285
that
2181
02:42:05.665 --> 02:42:09.431
Bitcoin is gonna go the same route of just, you know, becoming
2182
02:42:10.610 --> 02:42:11.110
a
2183
02:42:12.290 --> 02:42:14.230
default and de facto part of our lives,
2184
02:42:14.610 --> 02:42:29.939
that being able to build on it and make changes to it as we are doing. Because believe me, in, you know, 10 to 20 years' time, you're gonna be tinkering on the very edges. You're not gonna be working on on the kind of core stuff as we are today.
2185
02:42:31.280 --> 02:42:33.060
You know, that's a great
2186
02:42:33.975 --> 02:42:37.675
time to just be in it. No. Look. A 100% correct. Look. Yeah.
2187
02:42:38.055 --> 02:42:42.715
2188
02:42:43.070 --> 02:42:50.450
or whether it's the rider die freaks that are in the live chat, or whether it's the rider die freaks that are listening to this as soon as it gets uploaded and you're streaming stats,
2189
02:42:50.805 --> 02:43:04.109
Like, we're all in. We're all in, and, you know, there's no place I'd rather be. I have no regrets whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one of the luckiest men in the world. You know. I'm super grateful to be here. It's fucking awesome. That being said,
2190
02:43:04.810 --> 02:43:08.235
I share this podium with less than a 100 k people that are holding their own keys.
2191
02:43:09.995 --> 02:43:11.855
So okay. So we have that for keys.
2192
02:43:13.115 --> 02:43:16.016
How many how many users are using their own node?
2193
02:43:17.115 --> 02:43:17.615
Individuals.
2194
02:43:20.700 --> 02:43:23.520
I go first. Yeah. You go first this time.
2195
02:43:25.020 --> 02:43:26.640
2196
02:43:27.806 --> 02:43:28.945
25 k.
2197
02:43:30.445 --> 02:43:31.105
2198
02:43:31.645 --> 02:43:35.025
2199
02:43:35.591 --> 02:43:38.011
2200
02:43:39.190 --> 02:43:44.011
I I like that we have consensus here. Yeah. I I was gonna say 5 k. I was gonna say less than 5 k.
2201
02:43:46.045 --> 02:43:51.745
Okay. So we have that for using nodes using their own node. So we have a 100000 people holding their own keys,
2202
02:43:52.210 --> 02:43:56.229
then we have about 5,000 people less than 5,000 people
2203
02:43:56.770 --> 02:43:57.989
using their own node.
2204
02:43:59.865 --> 02:44:03.805
How many are holding their own keys, using their own node, and using Lightning?
2205
02:44:08.960 --> 02:44:10.420
2206
02:44:12.320 --> 02:44:13.301
2207
02:44:13.605 --> 02:44:16.266
perhaps half of that, you know, I would guess.
2208
02:44:17.205 --> 02:44:20.266
2209
02:44:20.860 --> 02:44:22.320
I mean, look, even we had
2210
02:44:23.580 --> 02:44:29.965
we had that, like, OG who fucking lost a 1,000 Bitcoin in the Electrum phishing scam, and he wasn't using his own node.
2211
02:44:30.604 --> 02:44:32.945
Guy had a 1,000 Bitcoin and it was in a hot wallet
2212
02:44:33.484 --> 02:44:34.145
on Electrum.
2213
02:44:34.845 --> 02:44:35.345
2214
02:44:37.250 --> 02:44:43.029
2215
02:44:43.410 --> 02:44:48.455
3000 people are using their own node in Lightning. Now Lightning does have the benefit that there's probably
2216
02:44:49.075 --> 02:44:56.319
a substantial amount of retail using Lightning without their own node, whether they're using, like, a Moon Wallet and with 2 u's,
2217
02:44:57.659 --> 02:45:04.085
or if they're using a a a completely custodial option like a BlueWallet or a Wallet of Satoshi, there's probably or like Strike.
2218
02:45:04.545 --> 02:45:08.085
There's probably a significant amount that are using lightning without their own node.
2219
02:45:08.980 --> 02:45:13.000
But even that is probably less than 15 k or 20 k. Right?
2220
02:45:18.234 --> 02:45:20.095
I'm gonna take your silence as agreement.
2221
02:45:20.555 --> 02:45:21.055
2222
02:45:22.395 --> 02:45:25.630
2223
02:45:26.649 --> 02:45:28.029
are holding their own keys.
2224
02:45:28.330 --> 02:45:30.989
We have less than 5,000 are using their own node.
2225
02:45:32.085 --> 02:45:32.745
We have,
2226
02:45:33.765 --> 02:45:36.505
less than 3,000 using their own node and lightning.
2227
02:45:38.870 --> 02:45:40.729
How many do we think are using CoinJoin?
2228
02:45:44.070 --> 02:45:44.570
42.
2229
02:45:45.670 --> 02:45:46.170
42?
2230
02:45:50.306 --> 02:45:52.165
Less than 2,000. Right?
2231
02:45:54.065 --> 02:45:54.565
2232
02:45:54.945 --> 02:45:55.686
For sure.
2233
02:45:57.040 --> 02:46:01.940
2234
02:46:03.655 --> 02:46:04.155
So
2235
02:46:04.694 --> 02:46:05.194
so,
2236
02:46:07.415 --> 02:46:20.020
you know, dispatch is, you know, 6 months old, but we've we've basically inherited the majority of of Tales from the clip listeners. But let's say rabbit hole recaps have been going on for 3 years. We got over 20,000 listeners per episode,
2237
02:46:21.814 --> 02:46:23.675
and I have not shut up about CoinJoin.
2238
02:46:24.375 --> 02:46:26.875
And we have 10% of them are using CoinJoin
2239
02:46:28.490 --> 02:46:30.750
or less than 10% of them are using coin join.
2240
02:46:32.011 --> 02:46:40.655
2241
02:46:43.596 --> 02:46:44.096
2242
02:46:44.760 --> 02:46:47.879
But I think the majority of people that are using CoinJoin
2243
02:46:48.359 --> 02:46:53.579
oh, except for maybe Wasabi. The, the overwhelming majority of Wasabi users are
2244
02:46:54.375 --> 02:46:56.556
are light users or SPV users.
2245
02:47:00.056 --> 02:47:03.195
2246
02:47:03.641 --> 02:47:05.340
way more some more users
2247
02:47:05.721 --> 02:47:08.700
using their servers than running their own node.
2248
02:47:10.815 --> 02:47:11.555
2249
02:47:12.655 --> 02:47:16.115
I guess I guess from from pure user numbers, yes,
2250
02:47:17.455 --> 02:47:22.790
rather than volume of Bitcoin. I would say volume of Bitcoin, the majority are probably using their own node.
2251
02:47:23.970 --> 02:47:32.734
Because if you're gonna have any kind of substantial amount of Bitcoin in there, I I my guess is is the majority of coinjoin volume across the base
2252
02:47:33.595 --> 02:47:34.734
across all implementations
2253
02:47:35.835 --> 02:47:36.574
is, like,
2254
02:47:37.570 --> 02:47:39.190
you know, a 1000 hardos
2255
02:47:39.730 --> 02:47:42.950
that that that have the majority of of the volume,
2256
02:47:43.971 --> 02:47:46.070
like, when you measured in Bitcoin terms.
2257
02:47:46.465 --> 02:47:47.765
Would you agree on that?
2258
02:47:49.824 --> 02:47:52.404
2259
02:47:54.189 --> 02:48:02.200
2260
02:48:03.335 --> 02:48:10.555
anyone who thinks, like, the fight is over is completely off base. Like, this is this is the start of a of a long war.
2261
02:48:12.780 --> 02:48:20.641
2262
02:48:20.976 --> 02:48:26.355
increase, the number of users go up. Some of those users, obviously, quite a small number,
2263
02:48:27.056 --> 02:48:27.875
on a percentage
2264
02:48:28.230 --> 02:48:32.010
base base basis just inflates every one of those figures. Right?
2265
02:48:32.710 --> 02:48:37.050
And so it will go go on. But what I'm sort of hoping is that,
2266
02:48:37.436 --> 02:48:42.255
as I say, once people realize that actually your privacy is is in some ways worse
2267
02:48:42.795 --> 02:48:43.855
when you receive
2268
02:48:44.510 --> 02:48:49.729
your sal sal salary to salary in Bitcoin, and then you go and spend that UTXO.
2269
02:48:51.069 --> 02:48:53.985
They'll start to kind of realize that these tools
2270
02:48:54.466 --> 02:49:11.370
are much more important than what they had thought, or they probably wouldn't have even thought thought of thought of them. So, you know, I think it's it's also a question of just getting that education out out there, which you're doing that. You know, it it just takes takes time. You know, the world does not change fast.
2271
02:49:12.245 --> 02:49:15.625
2272
02:49:17.205 --> 02:49:18.024
This is where
2273
02:49:18.645 --> 02:49:20.425
the real Bear Adele comes out.
2274
02:49:21.870 --> 02:49:22.370
So
2275
02:49:23.390 --> 02:49:26.689
once again, not by price. This is just on individual freedoms.
2276
02:49:27.790 --> 02:49:30.875
And I think the Bitcoin network can survive even if individuals
2277
02:49:32.055 --> 02:49:33.274
are completely fucked.
2278
02:49:33.814 --> 02:49:35.994
The majority of individuals are completely fucked.
2279
02:49:36.295 --> 02:49:36.614
But,
2280
02:49:37.960 --> 02:49:40.061
what I expect to happen is
2281
02:49:40.681 --> 02:49:56.729
is yeah. So the best thing we have going for us, I agree, Craig, is that as adoption increases and the circular economy increases, people are going to spend Bitcoin more often because they're gonna be earning Bitcoin. And if if we're right and their fiat is completely worthless, especially in,
2282
02:49:57.590 --> 02:50:02.245
you know, weaker economies, But I I think even in America and the and the EU,
2283
02:50:03.266 --> 02:50:10.960
we're gonna see those currencies become worse and worse store values as as the years go by. It seems to be amplifying really quickly.
2284
02:50:11.820 --> 02:50:15.601
People are going to be paid in Bitcoin, and they're gonna wanna hold Bitcoin.
2285
02:50:16.645 --> 02:50:19.625
This is part of our thesis. Most of our thesis, I think,
2286
02:50:20.245 --> 02:50:24.665
is that we expect Bitcoin to be the money that people wanna hold and people wanna spend.
2287
02:50:25.270 --> 02:50:31.930
Or or the people that the money that people wanna hold and because they were holding it and the majority of their wealth is in it and they're earning it, they wanna spend it. Right?
2288
02:50:34.355 --> 02:50:41.096
And when they come time to spend it, and they realize that they're losing all this privacy that that, you know, they go and buy
2289
02:50:41.870 --> 02:50:47.810
buy a sandwich or a car or some shit, and the person they pay knows, you know, how much they make,
2290
02:50:48.110 --> 02:50:50.850
or their boss knows what they bought this weekend,
2291
02:50:51.785 --> 02:50:57.165
they're going to go and try and seek out better privacy. Right? Like, that's the best argument, I think.
2292
02:50:57.625 --> 02:51:04.570
The the the the number one incentive we have going for us is that as users get burned, they will seek out better alternatives,
2293
02:51:05.351 --> 02:51:06.650
to improve their situation.
2294
02:51:07.105 --> 02:51:10.245
Now my concern, at least in the short to medium term,
2295
02:51:10.705 --> 02:51:14.885
is what's gonna happen is users are gonna realize that because they're not idiots,
2296
02:51:15.950 --> 02:51:17.410
and they're gonna go to,
2297
02:51:18.351 --> 02:51:23.490
like, custodial privacy solutions. So the perfect example I have of that is
2298
02:51:23.975 --> 02:51:25.595
I've had people pay me.
2299
02:51:26.534 --> 02:51:30.555
Some people are, you know, relatively well known in the Bitcoin space,
2300
02:51:32.520 --> 02:51:37.180
and they know where my tilt is in terms of Bitcoin, and they know I'm going to
2301
02:51:38.200 --> 02:51:40.625
look at their transaction when they send it to me.
2302
02:51:41.025 --> 02:51:44.725
And so what they do is they send from Stripe or from Cash App
2303
02:51:45.425 --> 02:51:54.680
because I can't tell anything about their transaction from it. I know they sent it from Cash App. It's very obvious. There's 98 inputs coming to, like, all different types of addresses.
2304
02:51:56.340 --> 02:52:01.275
Obviously, they didn't construct a transaction with 98 fucking inputs going to different directions.
2305
02:52:02.295 --> 02:52:06.235
Or, like, it's, like, 6 inputs with, like, 98 outputs is what I meant to say.
2306
02:52:07.801 --> 02:52:16.141
But it gives them privacy from everyone except Cash App or whoever Cash App is giving that information to or if it leaks or whatnot. Right?
2307
02:52:17.015 --> 02:52:20.875
So I think we're gonna be up against we're gonna be competing with, like, these
2308
02:52:22.215 --> 02:52:25.274
there's gonna be a lot of people that say, like, that's good enough privacy.
2309
02:52:25.770 --> 02:52:28.351
It's like, do you just get the privacy from, like, a regulated
2310
02:52:29.610 --> 02:52:32.030
company that gives you the custodial privacy?
2311
02:52:35.345 --> 02:52:46.069
2312
02:52:46.850 --> 02:52:54.385
You know, I don't know what the future future holds, but I I'd I'd like to think that that trend becomes more, that people start to chem chem or,
2313
02:52:55.005 --> 02:52:58.385
maybe that is overly optimistic. I'm willing to accept
2314
02:52:58.780 --> 02:53:01.200
that it might might might be, but, you know,
2315
02:53:01.660 --> 02:53:03.200
it's very hard to take
2316
02:53:03.660 --> 02:53:17.939
what we currently perceive to be how much people care and then put that forward into the fit pitch picture and then say, well, how much they care today will continue to be how much they they care, you know. We we just don't know. They might actually care less,
2317
02:53:18.720 --> 02:53:19.220
but
2318
02:53:19.840 --> 02:53:22.659
it probably won't stay the same, you know. Right.
2319
02:53:23.235 --> 02:53:24.535
So Yeah.
2320
02:53:24.915 --> 02:53:30.936
Yeah. So, you know, I I think that, you know, there there is some some hope that the trend at least has been
2321
02:53:31.315 --> 02:53:32.375
away from,
2322
02:53:32.860 --> 02:53:37.200
you know, just give all of my private information to large
2323
02:53:37.580 --> 02:53:44.485
company x, and it'll be fine. You know? I I I think that there's been a trend away from that. It's for sure,
2324
02:53:44.865 --> 02:53:45.445
it's not
2325
02:53:46.065 --> 02:53:47.686
changed the world yet, but,
2326
02:53:48.699 --> 02:53:50.640
it does give me some some hope,
2327
02:53:51.260 --> 02:53:54.399
that in future, people may care care more.
2328
02:53:56.335 --> 02:53:59.155
2329
02:53:59.615 --> 02:54:04.755
2330
02:54:05.520 --> 02:54:07.460
there's, like, 2,000 people that remember.
2331
02:54:08.160 --> 02:54:11.381
I I think I think the the bullish case is that
2332
02:54:14.266 --> 02:54:18.686
is that I think people will go to the custodial privacy options, and then they're gonna get censored
2333
02:54:19.306 --> 02:54:22.605
because that's what always happens. Right? You're just gonna have
2334
02:54:24.740 --> 02:54:35.195
you're just gonna have, like, the PayPal effect or whatever. Like like, people are gonna have their accounts closed. They're gonna have their money taken. They're gonna have transactions blocked. They're gonna have information leaked about them. There's gonna be massive hacks,
2335
02:54:35.655 --> 02:54:39.115
more and more hacks where where user information is taken and leaked,
2336
02:54:40.060 --> 02:54:44.560
and people will learn that they have to take their sovereignty back. But I think there's gonna be a middle ground period,
2337
02:54:45.980 --> 02:54:49.455
where users acknowledge that they have privacy concerns, but instead
2338
02:54:50.075 --> 02:54:58.950
of seeking the sovereign option, which is always gonna be more difficult, they're gonna go for that centralized custodial option, and we're just gonna have to get through that, like, turbulent period.
2339
02:54:59.570 --> 02:55:05.830
2340
02:55:06.475 --> 02:55:12.574
you know, South Africa has this stupid law, which is decades old, which basically says you can't export,
2341
02:55:13.114 --> 02:55:18.670
any of our local currency overseas. You know, they see that as sort of it's it's, I guess,
2342
02:55:19.130 --> 02:55:22.670
not dissimilar to the way China kind of views things.
2343
02:55:23.865 --> 02:55:29.405
So what the Reserve Bank here is trying to do is to say, well, you can't if you buy,
2344
02:55:30.105 --> 02:55:38.229
Bitcoin on a local exchange here. You can't send it to an international exchange and sell it sell it there because that obviously
2345
02:55:38.610 --> 02:56:04.064
goes against this law. Now, obviously, we know that you can withdraw it to your wallet here. You can send it through CoinJoin, and there's not really much that anyone can tell after that that that point. So there's a real incentive there to, you know, to take your money into your own hands versus keeping it in some kind of an online place where all of these rules are are sort of, you know, there. And I think that those rules are gonna get worse, you know, as
2346
02:56:04.444 --> 02:56:06.705
the value of Fiat drops over time,
2347
02:56:07.230 --> 02:56:13.330
so governments will try whatever adding whatever regulations they can to try and protect it and
2348
02:56:13.710 --> 02:56:15.811
trying to protect the flight of capital
2349
02:56:16.245 --> 02:56:19.465
as they perceive it dropping against some other place
2350
02:56:20.005 --> 02:56:24.905
is one of the key things that they'll they'll they'll do. And and the obvious out is to take
2351
02:56:25.320 --> 02:56:26.860
custody of your own funds.
2352
02:56:27.240 --> 02:56:27.900
So, hopefully,
2353
02:56:29.000 --> 02:56:38.024
they do do that because I think that that's going to be a way that people start to realize the value of taking, you know, taking it into your own hands.
2354
02:56:42.900 --> 02:56:44.979
2355
02:56:46.020 --> 02:56:53.176
it's just gonna be longer than most people realize, but I think that, both you and Kito agree with me on that. I'm just reiterating it. Yeah.
2356
02:56:54.915 --> 02:57:00.880
Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation. I know I said we're gonna keep it under 2 hours privately, but, here we are.
2357
02:57:01.899 --> 02:57:11.665
I appreciate you guys' time. I appreciate all the work you've put into your respective projects and what you've helped. You know, you've helped so many sovereign Bitcoiners. I I'm super grateful for both of you guys.
2358
02:57:12.605 --> 02:57:13.985
2359
02:57:14.490 --> 02:57:15.311
2360
02:57:15.930 --> 02:57:18.430
our all all of your 500 users.
2361
02:57:20.090 --> 02:57:20.490
I,
2362
02:57:21.210 --> 02:57:26.245
I think this is a really insightful conversation. I think the freaks really appreciate it. I hope I hope they did.
2363
02:57:28.386 --> 02:57:31.766
Do you guys have any final thoughts before we wrap this baby up?
2364
02:57:37.340 --> 02:57:49.975
2365
02:57:51.610 --> 02:57:57.710
2366
02:57:58.090 --> 02:57:59.150
2367
02:57:59.645 --> 02:58:07.105
2368
02:58:07.710 --> 02:58:12.290
I appreciate all the freaks who continue to support the show through the podcasting 2 point o apps.
2369
02:58:12.989 --> 02:58:14.369
A reminder that is
2370
02:58:14.745 --> 02:58:16.125
new podcast apps.com.
2371
02:58:16.585 --> 02:58:22.285
My favorite is Breeze. You just open it up. You search Siddle Dispatch, and you could stream stats directly to the show.
2372
02:58:22.920 --> 02:58:24.780
You can also donate via sidledispatch.com.
2373
02:58:26.841 --> 02:58:29.820
We also have 2 new items on the merch store,
2374
02:58:30.186 --> 02:58:31.085
citadel dispatch.com/stack,
2375
02:58:32.266 --> 02:58:40.561
brought to you by Ride or Die Freaks that are setting those up for us. We have BTC Pins is providing a SIDL dispatch magnet.
2376
02:58:41.341 --> 02:58:46.160
30% of that goes to me, 30% goes to him, and 30% goes to Open Sats
2377
02:58:48.115 --> 02:58:55.095
for supporting Bitcoin development. And then we have, a rider die free, Quinn Solo, who is doing sale dispatch flasks.
2378
02:58:55.881 --> 02:59:02.221
Same deal. A third goes to me, a third goes to him, and a third goes to open source development via OpenSats.
2379
02:59:02.955 --> 02:59:07.455
We still have the hats available. A lot of you freaks have reached out for the hats. I appreciate all the support
2380
02:59:07.915 --> 02:59:10.655
there. Once again, the reminder is that still dispatch.com/stack.
2381
02:59:13.880 --> 02:59:16.140
I'm really excited. I don't have
2382
02:59:16.680 --> 02:59:23.854
next week's guests lined up yet, but the week after that, July 20th, is gonna be Diverter and e Econo Alchemist,
2383
02:59:24.635 --> 02:59:26.814
are gonna both be rejoining the show,
2384
02:59:27.320 --> 02:59:34.140
for a special home mining episode. I think all the freaks should be trying to seek out, ASICs right now. I think it's, they're very cheap,
2385
02:59:34.976 --> 02:59:38.595
and it's a really good way to stack KYC free while supporting the network.
2386
02:59:39.775 --> 02:59:41.235
So stay tuned for that.
2387
02:59:41.920 --> 02:59:47.620
And I appreciate you all. I thank you so much, Kito, and thank you so much, Craig. I look forward to having you guys on the show again soon.
2388
02:59:49.256 --> 02:59:50.716
2389
02:59:51.096 --> 02:59:51.995
2390
02:59:58.750 --> 03:00:01.330
2391
03:00:01.790 --> 03:00:12.240
engines pumping and thumping in time. The green light flashes, the flags go up, churning and burning. They yearn for the cup. They definitely maneuver and muscle for rank.
2392
03:00:12.721 --> 03:00:42.056
Fuel burning fast on an empty tank. Reckless and wild, they pour through the turns. Their prowess is potent and secretly stern. Stern. As they speed through the finish, the flags go down. The fans get up and they get out of town. The arena is empty, except for one man still driving and striving as fast as he can. The sun has gone down and the moon has come up. And long ago, somebody left with the cup. But he's driving and striving, and hugging the turns, and thinking of someone for whom he still burns.
2393
03:00:43.315 --> 03:00:44.775
He's going the distance.
2394
03:00:45.715 --> 03:00:46.540
He's going
2395
03:01:15.445 --> 03:01:20.585
No trophy, no flowers, no flashbulbs, no line. He's haunted by something he cannot define.
2396
03:01:21.000 --> 03:01:44.945
Bowel shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse. Assail him, impale him with monster truck force. In his mind, he's still driving, still making the grade. She's hoping in time that her memories will fade because he's racing and pacing and hardening the course. He's fighting and fighting and riding on his horse. The sun has gone down and the moon has come up. And long ago, somebody left with the cup, but he's striving and driving and hugging the turns and thanking
2397
03:03:02.510 --> 03:03:11.380
