April 14, 2021

CD17: bitcoin nodes and self hosting with @futurepaul and @proofofkeags

EPISODE: 0.1.7

BLOCK: 679055

PRICE: 1592 sats per dollar

TOPICS: bitcoin nodes, self hosting

@futurepaul: https://twitter.com/futurepaul

@proofofkeags: https://twitter.com/proofofkeags

streamed live every tuesday:

https://citadeldispatch.com

twitch: https://twitch.tv/citadeldispatch

bitcointv: https://bitcointv.com/video-channels/citadeldispatch/videos

podcast: https://anchor.fm/citadeldispatch

telegram: https://t.me/citadeldispatch

support the show: https://tippin.me/@odell

stream sats to the show: https://www.fountain.fm/

join the chat: http://citadel.chat/

00:00 - Coinbase direct listing and government understanding of digital currencies

01:23 - Bitcoin Tuesday and Citadel Dispatch episode introduction

04:22 - Start9 Labs and self-hosting

05:41 - Explanation of a Bitcoin node

08:59 - Using your own node and trust levels

43:52 - Payment size and channel selection

44:39 - LNURL and lightning node routing

46:09 - KYC nodes and privacy risks

47:58 - Public key exposure and privacy risks

48:40 - Moon Wallet and rotating public keys

50:21 - Different implementations and trade-offs

56:30 - Taproot activation and different approaches

01:02:16 - Governance and the Taproot activation process

01:27:02 - Competition and keeping organizations honest

01:28:02 - The easiest way to run a Bitcoin node

01:31:59 - Approach to trust and transparency

02:09:36 - Discussion about self-hosting and monetizing open-source projects

02:12:20 - Debate on the advantages and disadvantages of using the MIT and GPL licenses

02:23:06 - Conversation about the licensing choices made by the speakers

WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:33:23 PM
Duration: 9165.4
Channels: 1

1
00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:02.820
Out of left field, but we've got Coinbase coming,

2
00:00:03.520 --> 00:00:05.299
with a direct listing. And

3
00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:08.825
I looked back when you were on. It was July of 2019.

4
00:00:09.205 --> 00:00:10.665
We were talking about Libra,

5
00:00:11.045 --> 00:00:13.625
and you didn't like Libra, but you were very positive

6
00:00:14.140 --> 00:00:19.600
about Bitcoin, which subsequently went from 7 or 8,000 to where, new high today at 63,000.

7
00:00:20.300 --> 00:00:21.825
Coinbase now coming public.

8
00:00:22.145 --> 00:00:29.905
When a lot of government types you're you're very rare for someone to be positive about this. And, I don't know if you saw,

9
00:00:30.590 --> 00:00:37.650
secretary Yellen and Fed chair Powell talking about it. Do you think that they have a feeling or a good understanding of of

10
00:00:38.025 --> 00:00:46.045
of digital currencies or Bitcoin at this point? Or they need a little remedial reading, a a little reading of the Bitcoin standard? What what would you suggest?

11
00:00:46.680 --> 00:01:08.270
Well, I think I was right then and I'm right now. I think they tried to ignore it to make it go away. I think Jamie Dimon will tell you that from the beginning he was wrong. This is moving towards the future. They should not ignore it. They should not only learn more about it, but the basis is gonna continue to grow. And this is something that those who regulate, those who are in government, they make policy

12
00:01:08.650 --> 00:01:15.015
better start understanding what it means for the future because other countries are moving forward, especially China.

13
00:01:15.395 --> 00:01:24.299
I do not want America to fall behind. I want the next century to be ours. That's why I wanna look forward not backwards and not keep my head in the sand. Okay.

14
00:02:02.570 --> 00:02:05.310
Oh, shit. Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.

15
00:02:05.610 --> 00:02:08.045
What a fucking day it's been. That

16
00:02:09.305 --> 00:02:12.525
that Bitcoin FOMO hitting us fucking hard, the best drug there is.

17
00:02:12.985 --> 00:02:16.125
Welcome to another episode of Citadel dispatch.

18
00:02:16.630 --> 00:02:18.250
This is episode 17,

19
00:02:18.870 --> 00:02:23.930
the interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.

20
00:02:25.455 --> 00:02:31.955
To those joining from the audio streams, whether that's our 2 podcast feeds, Tales From the Crypt or Citadel Dispatch dedicated feed,

21
00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:35.620
or Sphinx Breeze other podcasting 2 point o apps.

22
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:43.485
That was Joe Kernan or boy Joe Kernan from CNBC Squawk Box, the number one Bitcoin podcaster in the space,

23
00:02:44.185 --> 00:02:47.405
speaking with Republican house leader from California,

24
00:02:48.105 --> 00:02:49.005
Kevin McCarthy,

25
00:02:49.470 --> 00:02:50.209
who basically

26
00:02:50.670 --> 00:02:54.290
is sending out a warning shot on CNBC to other house of representatives,

27
00:02:55.230 --> 00:02:55.550
members,

28
00:02:56.645 --> 00:03:03.625
if you do not support Bitcoin, then you are against America, which is a pretty crazy fucking thing to see on mainstream television.

29
00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:10.890
I want to do a quick shout out to all the freaks who are streaming us sats through podcast 2.0.

30
00:03:11.430 --> 00:03:12.890
You helped make this show

31
00:03:13.325 --> 00:03:22.385
completely ad free and sponsor free. That is pretty fucking cool. It's just really cool to see the fucking little lightning payments come through, and I appreciate that. That is a special connection,

32
00:03:23.010 --> 00:03:23.670
we have,

33
00:03:24.610 --> 00:03:28.550
and another big shout out to the rider dive freaks that join us live every week.

34
00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:32.725
Without you, this show is is basically nothing. So,

35
00:03:33.345 --> 00:03:35.365
appreciate you guys coming in here and

36
00:03:35.665 --> 00:03:38.245
being heavy participants in the live chat,

37
00:03:39.105 --> 00:03:42.230
whether that is on Twitter, Twitch, or YouTube.

38
00:03:43.010 --> 00:03:43.990
Another reminder

39
00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:46.630
that you are able to view the videos

40
00:03:47.090 --> 00:03:51.944
after the fact on Telegram and Keybase. All videos are uploaded there in full.

41
00:03:53.205 --> 00:03:55.065
On the other platforms, you know,

42
00:03:55.924 --> 00:03:59.065
some of the music video material might be removed or muted,

43
00:03:59.510 --> 00:04:01.690
per copyright rules. It is what it is.

44
00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:04.650
With all that said,

45
00:04:05.030 --> 00:04:09.505
I wanna welcome a return guest, a good friend, and the cofounder of The Verge.

46
00:04:10.605 --> 00:04:12.545
Future Paul is joining us today.

47
00:04:13.485 --> 00:04:13.985
And

48
00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:15.380
thank you, Paul.

49
00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:21.460
Sorry for not giving you a good break there to to introduce yourself. How are you doing? You doing alright?

50
00:04:22.115 --> 00:04:26.695
I'm glad you're having me on to talk about my essay, Christianity for Bitcoiners.

51
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:30.740
And,

52
00:04:31.280 --> 00:04:33.460
and we have proof of Kegs here. Keegan,

53
00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:41.215
cofounder of Start9 Labs. I met him at BitblockGoom this year. Cool dude. I built a really cool product that a lot of the freaks seem to love.

54
00:04:41.675 --> 00:04:42.574
Welcome, Keegan.

55
00:04:43.354 --> 00:04:45.055
Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me.

56
00:04:46.410 --> 00:04:51.230
Absolutely. Thank you for joining. It's been a long time coming. Today, we will be talking about Bitcoin nodes,

57
00:04:51.690 --> 00:04:52.510
self hosting,

58
00:04:52.970 --> 00:04:58.495
number go up, and all things Bitcoin related. It's gonna be a fucking fun time. I'm really looking forward to this.

59
00:05:00.955 --> 00:05:02.975
I think a great place to start,

60
00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:06.639
is I kinda like I would I would like Keegan

61
00:05:07.180 --> 00:05:08.479
to start with a

62
00:05:09.900 --> 00:05:10.400
explanation

63
00:05:11.435 --> 00:05:17.134
of what the fuck a Bitcoin note is. I have this poll up to our to the viewers who are coming in through video.

64
00:05:18.395 --> 00:05:20.255
Do you use your own Bitcoin note?

65
00:05:20.760 --> 00:05:23.020
This is very scientific. This was a Twitter poll.

66
00:05:23.640 --> 00:05:24.140
55100

67
00:05:24.520 --> 00:05:25.340
people responded.

68
00:05:26.520 --> 00:05:27.020
35%

69
00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:28.300
said yes.

70
00:05:28.664 --> 00:05:29.164
35

71
00:05:29.465 --> 00:05:30.284
said no.

72
00:05:31.145 --> 00:05:33.324
550 people said what is a node?

73
00:05:34.905 --> 00:05:37.805
And, a 1000 people asked to see the answers.

74
00:05:38.370 --> 00:05:40.629
So, Keegan, what is a Bitcoin note?

75
00:05:41.169 --> 00:05:47.270
Yeah. So for the 500 of you that asked what the fuck a Bitcoin note is, that's how, a, you know

76
00:05:47.655 --> 00:05:49.275
what the ledger even says.

77
00:05:50.455 --> 00:06:17.610
And it is so the the one of the main central properties to Bitcoin is the fact that there is no central authority, but there still is an authoritative state of what the ledger is. That's what tells you how much Bitcoin you have. It tells you, you know, when you've been paid, when you paid other people. And so if you're not looking to an authority to be like, yo, how much is like, how how much does this address have? You have to ask yourself, which is your your Bitcoin node. And the only way to do that is to to basically run the software,

78
00:06:17.990 --> 00:06:35.760
verify every transaction from Genesys, which is one of the few things that Bitcoin does that basically know all even purports to do, because, you know, it running a node has been a staple of Bitcoin culture, thankfully, for, like, the last, you know, you know, pretty much since the the block size wars concluded.

79
00:06:36.460 --> 00:06:46.384
So we can, I guess, talk more about that later? But at the end of the day, the only secure way to know whether or not you've been paid and how much money you have is through running a Bitcoin node. Anything

80
00:06:47.810 --> 00:06:52.389
if you're not using your own, you're using someone else's. And There we go. So you have to trust that person.

81
00:06:53.889 --> 00:06:55.509
Paul, what do you think of that explanation?

82
00:06:56.835 --> 00:07:02.535
Yeah. I I really like that. I it's very helpful, I think, for new people to unders

83
00:07:03.395 --> 00:07:03.895
like

84
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:05.700
like, I almost

85
00:07:06.080 --> 00:07:12.100
like visualizing Bitcoin as, like, an Excel spreadsheet, or it's like a huge shared doc. You know?

86
00:07:12.645 --> 00:07:17.205
And, the like, you you don't ask for that from Google. You just

87
00:07:18.165 --> 00:07:20.825
you you can build your own copy. And

88
00:07:21.220 --> 00:07:22.340
I don't know. It it's,

89
00:07:26.180 --> 00:07:31.134
it's so different than how you normally interact with software that there is a lot to learn

90
00:07:31.595 --> 00:07:37.294
about it, but it is it's so beautiful in that it it it answers every gotcha.

91
00:07:37.860 --> 00:07:47.400
Like, what do you mean? Like, everybody just agrees that this is what Bitcoin is, and then it works, and then it and then it and it does work. And the node is is like a huge aspect of that.

92
00:07:48.665 --> 00:07:57.530
Yeah. The crypt logo from the chat is saying asking strangers for how much money you have. Well, is yeah. Like, when you put it like that, it's completely ridiculous that people don't run their own notes. Right?

93
00:07:59.130 --> 00:07:59.870
Yeah. 100%.

94
00:08:00.170 --> 00:08:10.294
So so so to to just distill this because it's a it's a topic that I've had to discuss a lot, I think Keegan nailed it right at the end there is is the key thing

95
00:08:10.675 --> 00:08:32.145
is if you use the Bitcoin network, you're gonna you're gonna have to use a Bitcoin node to interact with the network. That's either gonna be your own node or it's gonna be someone else's node. If it's someone else's node, then you're trusting their node. If you're trusting their node, you're trusting their node with your privacy, and you're trusting their node with actually verifying everything's going on, you know, whether that's how much Bitcoin you have or whether that's the consensus rules. What is Bitcoin?

96
00:08:33.670 --> 00:08:35.850
So it's absolutely imperative that people

97
00:08:36.550 --> 00:08:40.730
exercise the right to use their own node, not only run their own node, but use their own node.

98
00:08:41.475 --> 00:08:45.654
That's what makes Bitcoin different than so many other systems because you're able to use it,

99
00:08:46.035 --> 00:08:49.975
in this trust minimized way where you don't have to rely on a third party.

100
00:08:50.430 --> 00:08:53.810
In most cases for people, that third party is their node provider.

101
00:08:55.070 --> 00:09:03.715
Can can you guys contextualize this where you would put it in the priority scale? Like, if I'm if I'm trying to get my funds off of Coinbase,

102
00:09:04.095 --> 00:09:04.975
for instance, you know,

103
00:09:05.935 --> 00:09:14.370
I've I've I've heard the the not your keys, not your coins. So I've got, like, a cold card now. I'm ready to move my funds. And then everybody's telling me, well,

104
00:09:14.910 --> 00:09:22.815
you you you know, you're not really a Bitcoin unless you've got your own nodes to, like, verify these transactions when you're moving your funds off of Coinbase.

105
00:09:23.515 --> 00:09:32.250
Like, is it okay that your first time, like, maybe you you use the wallets, like, default, like, whatever it's connecting to, and you just trust this node

106
00:09:32.950 --> 00:09:38.250
for starters. Like like, how imperative is it that you are verifying your own transaction?

107
00:09:38.715 --> 00:09:45.295
Trust is not a death sentence. Right? It really depends on how much of your, you know, financial well-being is tied up in Bitcoin

108
00:09:45.755 --> 00:09:56.149
and how much you can afford for whoever you're trusting to cheat you. Right? So if you're dicking around with a, like, a few dollars worth of Bitcoin, right, and, you know, you're largely

109
00:09:56.595 --> 00:10:01.175
not really interacting with the network yet. Like, yeah, it's totally fine for you to,

110
00:10:02.514 --> 00:10:12.670
have, like, you have other nodes that you're trusting in the in the interim as you sort of get your setup off the ground. But if you're, you know, talking about accepting Bitcoin in order to,

111
00:10:13.115 --> 00:10:14.575
like, sell a very large,

112
00:10:15.275 --> 00:10:25.920
you know, piece of property, whether it's like a house or a car or something like that, or you're trying to get paid for your, you know, time, which is one of the maybe the most scarce asset that each of us have. Right?

113
00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:36.135
Then now all of a sudden, it's it's a lot more important. So it it really comes to do it comes it comes down to how much exposure you have if it goes wrong.

114
00:10:36.460 --> 00:10:39.120
Well, like like everything else on the show. Right?

115
00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:49.985
There's, like, a shit ton of nuance. Like, I don't think it's very productive that, like, the Luke Juniors of the world, like, scare the shit out of users and tell them that they don't know Bitcoin if they don't use their own node,

116
00:10:50.765 --> 00:10:52.945
even though that might be technically true.

117
00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:55.259
In practice,

118
00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:06.115
at least from the verification side, there's been no large scale cases of people getting duped into thinking they own Bitcoin when they don't own Bitcoin. So the best example would be,

119
00:11:06.735 --> 00:11:12.730
Ledger or Trezor. Right? The like, an overwhelming majority of freaks probably use Ledger or Trezor's nodes,

120
00:11:13.110 --> 00:11:16.090
and they don't even realize. They just use, you know, they use Trezor's

121
00:11:16.524 --> 00:11:22.464
wallet software. They use Ledger's wallet software with their hardware wallet, and they're trusting that that node.

122
00:11:23.485 --> 00:11:25.024
Those nodes have never

123
00:11:25.470 --> 00:11:28.850
been known to lie to anybody about which Bitcoin is theirs.

124
00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:32.529
That doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the future, but that's never happened.

125
00:11:33.015 --> 00:11:33.515
Furthermore,

126
00:11:33.895 --> 00:11:35.435
you go and you, like, check

127
00:11:36.375 --> 00:11:37.515
maybe, like, blockstream.infoororoxt.meormempool.

128
00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:42.880
Space, these other,

129
00:11:43.339 --> 00:11:47.440
you know, these blockchain explorers that are running their own nodes, and you verify

130
00:11:48.140 --> 00:11:51.360
that there's actually coins in in your address on those services,

131
00:11:51.884 --> 00:12:08.410
then all of a sudden you're reducing the trust even if you're not using your own note. Right? Like, it's you you Yeah. You would need you would need, like, those 4 services to to collude to fuck you. Right? And in in practical terms, that probably won't happen. But on the privacy side, I feel like the privacy side is way more tangible because it doesn't matter,

132
00:12:10.045 --> 00:12:15.105
like, it's like obvious of course, it matters the verification side, but it it on the privacy side,

133
00:12:16.180 --> 00:12:33.785
you're a 100% trusting them with your privacy. They see every transaction you do. They see all of your balance checks. And if you're not using Tor, they see your IP address. Right? So they can connect all that stuff. So I think for for people on the on the node side to see it as a tangible thing on on privacy is a very

134
00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:42.490
insightful I I I it's like it's an insightful way to to prove why a node is important. Would you agree?

135
00:12:43.215 --> 00:12:46.995
Yeah. I mean, like, nodes for privacy is definitely something that,

136
00:12:47.775 --> 00:13:07.944
it is an improvement than overusing things like ledger and treasures nodes or or whatever. But it's also not a panacea either. Right? If, like, you can spin up a bunch of nodes on something like AWS and try to corner specific nodes that you see. Not that each node identifies itself at all. So it's not like, you know, your node is broadcasting me. Like, you know, I'm proof of Kieck's node.

137
00:13:08.964 --> 00:13:16.540
Please corner me. So but, you know, there there are still pieces of analysis that you can do on nodes if you control

138
00:13:17.080 --> 00:13:19.635
a decent number of the peers,

139
00:13:20.575 --> 00:13:22.274
that are near certain nodes.

140
00:13:22.735 --> 00:13:28.115
So it's it'd probably be even better to to connect to things over Tor if you if you can.

141
00:13:28.699 --> 00:13:32.880
But, you know, this is just you're just getting further and further out on the continuum

142
00:13:33.339 --> 00:13:39.965
of of privacy and and security and sovereignty and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say is, like, the the

143
00:13:40.905 --> 00:13:46.045
the prerequisite to try and start to use Bitcoin privately is to learn how to use your own node.

144
00:13:46.889 --> 00:13:55.389
So if if you have any desire to try and use Bitcoin privately, well, I and I understand that that's not for everyone, but it is probably for most people that listen to the show.

145
00:13:55.735 --> 00:13:58.154
It's gonna start with using your own node. Right?

146
00:13:58.695 --> 00:13:59.755
Yeah. For sure.

147
00:14:00.375 --> 00:14:03.435
But for the average person, to just go back to what Paul said,

148
00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:08.200
are we completely fine with them just moving it to a

149
00:14:09.380 --> 00:14:10.120
to, like,

150
00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:13.480
to the to not using their own node, but self custody,

151
00:14:14.555 --> 00:14:17.695
first as a step, whether that's a mobile wallet or,

152
00:14:19.755 --> 00:14:25.750
Let's say or, like, a hardware wallet. You got $10 on on on Coinbase or Cash App or whatever.

153
00:14:27.649 --> 00:14:29.190
Yeah. 10, at $10

154
00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:34.295
a $10 oh, I mean, it depends on how much $10 is for you because it it's really more about

155
00:14:34.675 --> 00:14:46.110
how much of your own life can get fucked over. It's less about the amount. Right? If 10 grand is gonna fuck you over, you you need to run your own in order to sort of verify that. If it's not, then, like,

156
00:14:46.415 --> 00:15:00.360
I, you know, I I can't tell you what you should or should not do with respect to your own risk profile. But I would say in terms of the ordering of of things, like, I think it's more important that people hold their keys than it is that they run their own node in just in a sort of practical sense.

157
00:15:01.465 --> 00:15:03.005
But you should do both.

158
00:15:03.625 --> 00:15:11.080
That's the really the only way to to be sure that you have what you have. If only there was an easy way to run your node.

159
00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:13.240
If only.

160
00:15:14.180 --> 00:15:16.360
Yeah. I guess that that should segue.

161
00:15:17.785 --> 00:15:31.940
Yeah. Let's let's fucking go. So so you're the cofounder of Start 9 Labs. What's what's the mission? What is Start 9 Labs? Hit us. So Start 9 Labs' purpose is to increase the sell like, the digital self sovereignty of people on the Internet.

162
00:15:32.880 --> 00:15:33.295
The

163
00:15:33.695 --> 00:15:41.394
sort of short pitch is that, like, the Internet has become an its own force of nature. Like, we've had elections that are swayed by,

164
00:15:42.160 --> 00:15:47.620
happenings on the Internet. And so, the Internet is just way more important than it was, like, 20 years ago.

165
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:48.819
And so,

166
00:15:49.405 --> 00:15:53.105
as such, it's more important than ever that people are the

167
00:15:53.485 --> 00:15:55.585
custodians of their own digital lives.

168
00:15:55.965 --> 00:16:05.315
And yet for the last couple of decades, we've been sort of outsourcing more and more and more of that to various large companies who don't have your best interests at heart. They give you

169
00:16:14.030 --> 00:16:23.010
but they all involve running your own server software, which is not unlike running your own Bitcoin node. So we just provide a platform to make that as easy as we possibly can

170
00:16:23.355 --> 00:16:27.855
while still letting the users retain as much control over their,

171
00:16:28.634 --> 00:16:30.095
digital lives as possible.

172
00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:32.110
So

173
00:16:32.490 --> 00:16:38.990
the the product started with a one click install of a Bitcoin node. That's why it's pretty relevant to this discussion,

174
00:16:39.655 --> 00:16:49.530
but quickly extended to things like lightning nodes as well. And then, you know, we've also deployed, like, a a Google Drive equivalent, like a file a a called file browser,

175
00:16:50.550 --> 00:16:56.250
and and various other services that, we deem to be sort of mission critical to a lot of people's lives.

176
00:16:59.084 --> 00:16:59.584
Awesome.

177
00:17:00.365 --> 00:17:04.625
So, I mean, if we're gonna distill it if we're gonna distill it to, like, a marketing pitch,

178
00:17:05.690 --> 00:17:10.910
like, the cloud is someone else's computer and Start Nine's goal is to put that computer in your closet.

179
00:17:11.530 --> 00:17:16.645
Yep. That's exactly right. We we want you to hold we we want you to be in custody

180
00:17:16.945 --> 00:17:20.165
of your digital life all the way down to the middle.

181
00:17:20.590 --> 00:17:24.530
But you can be just a pleb that doesn't know what they're doing.

182
00:17:24.990 --> 00:17:25.490
Yep.

183
00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:31.565
Or we we we try to take you further out. We we try to give you more leverage. Right? Nothing

184
00:17:31.945 --> 00:17:47.160
about this is going to absolve you from having personal responsibility of some kind, but we can give you tremendous amounts of leverage where you only have to know a little bit about what you're doing as opposed to tons and tons of extraneous details that it would take to run this software were it not for the product like the embassy.

185
00:17:48.685 --> 00:17:49.185
Right.

186
00:17:49.885 --> 00:17:52.945
So, I mean, one of the things that I really like about the Embassy

187
00:17:53.725 --> 00:17:58.930
I mean, so so this idea of self hosting is something that we've talked a lot about on the show so far.

188
00:17:59.550 --> 00:18:01.170
It's still a very young show.

189
00:18:01.790 --> 00:18:05.054
It's you know, we only started at the end of 2020,

190
00:18:06.715 --> 00:18:08.815
and we've talked a lot about self hosting

191
00:18:09.115 --> 00:18:14.110
and, you know, running your own shit, whether that's Bitcoin or whether that's whether that's other things.

192
00:18:15.210 --> 00:18:19.550
And it seems like in this world of of censorship and and

193
00:18:20.185 --> 00:18:22.765
top down moderation from these centralized platforms,

194
00:18:23.625 --> 00:18:27.165
there should be, like, a pretty organic push to people basically

195
00:18:27.545 --> 00:18:29.965
moving to self hosted alternatives. Right?

196
00:18:31.610 --> 00:18:35.230
When people get burned, they naturally have this incentive to to move.

197
00:18:36.090 --> 00:18:38.110
Now what it seems to kind of

198
00:18:38.765 --> 00:18:44.465
push back against that incentive model is basically ease like switching costs, like ease of move,

199
00:18:46.340 --> 00:19:00.655
And and that's, like, 2 fold. That's not only UX, that's also cost. Right? And I think one of the things you guys have done really well, because you're not the only ones, specifically in the Bitcoin space, you're not the only ones who are working on this kind of model, is you really brought it in at a very competitive price point.

200
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.500
Yeah. You wanna talk about, like, the importance of of of that?

201
00:19:05.120 --> 00:19:14.085
Yeah. I mean, well, it just it's a philosophy thing primarily. Like, the price point that we pick we brought it in at I mean, one of the things that my cofounder and brother,

202
00:19:14.785 --> 00:19:15.365
a n,

203
00:19:15.825 --> 00:19:18.805
Twitter handle doctor Bone said is that, like,

204
00:19:19.270 --> 00:19:19.770
if

205
00:19:20.070 --> 00:19:26.970
the technology isn't broadly accessible to people, it will be used as an instrument of, sort of inequality

206
00:19:27.350 --> 00:19:27.850
and,

207
00:19:29.044 --> 00:19:42.559
like, oppression. Right? And so, obviously, there's a certain level at which it becomes unsustainable for us, in which case, this technology does get brought to market at all. But, we're trying to keep it as competitive as humanly possible,

208
00:19:43.980 --> 00:19:47.520
in order to get it into as many hands as we physically can.

209
00:19:48.524 --> 00:19:49.105
I dig

210
00:19:50.085 --> 00:19:50.585
it.

211
00:19:51.565 --> 00:19:53.424
Paul, what what's going on over there?

212
00:19:53.804 --> 00:19:55.965
I'm trying to look at I just I just so,

213
00:19:57.570 --> 00:20:02.389
I don't know if this is a counterpoint, but a as a alternative solution, I recently

214
00:20:03.009 --> 00:20:03.909
bought a pie,

215
00:20:04.210 --> 00:20:07.715
got the case, got the hard drive, plugged them all together

216
00:20:08.175 --> 00:20:09.715
and put Umbrel on it.

217
00:20:10.335 --> 00:20:11.715
And that's been working

218
00:20:12.550 --> 00:20:18.330
really well for me. And I was just trying to figure out how much I spent because, like, it looks it looks like you can get the 8 gigabyte

219
00:20:18.790 --> 00:20:19.930
embassy for,

220
00:20:20.914 --> 00:20:42.155
for 300. Like, how big is the hard drive? Well, the the that's what they did. They've they they run it all off the SSD and pruned. I mean, they run it all off the SD card in pruned mode to get the cost down because the SSD is the most expensive part of of these other nodes. Yeah. The SSD is is is comparatively quite expensive. We currently do run everything off of the SD card for now.

221
00:20:42.855 --> 00:20:51.450
We do have an upgrade in the works. We've talked about this at various points. This shouldn't come as news to anybody who's been following the project. But for anyone who hasn't,

222
00:20:51.910 --> 00:21:01.785
the like, one of the forthcoming releases is going to be, moving some of that data to a more reliable, like, storage medium. Because one of the criticisms we've foreseen

223
00:21:02.405 --> 00:21:06.920
and rightfully so is that, like, the SD cost reliable as, you know, some of the alternatives.

224
00:21:07.620 --> 00:21:13.720
But we have taken already precautions. I know that 6102 is asking in the chat right now how long will the SD survive.

225
00:21:14.485 --> 00:21:16.185
The SD cards that we sell,

226
00:21:16.965 --> 00:21:25.600
are, like, high endurance models. They're designed to take lots and lots of write cycles. And even when they wear out from a right cycle standpoint, you can still read all of the data off of them.

227
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:27.200
So

228
00:21:27.899 --> 00:21:41.700
it's not like, a tremendous problem, but we would like it to be better. We're constantly trying to improve the product, and one of the ways that we are going to be doing that is allowing external drive support in the near future. It isn't just also necessary to for, like, Electrum personal server?

229
00:21:43.120 --> 00:21:50.355
Could you say that again? Don't you need the whole blockchain for for to do Electrum, or am I mistaken on that? Yeah. So so I think for

230
00:21:50.815 --> 00:21:51.875
for EPS,

231
00:21:52.255 --> 00:21:55.395
for Electrum personal server, like, Belcher's project,

232
00:21:57.009 --> 00:21:58.070
you do need

233
00:21:58.370 --> 00:21:59.110
the entire,

234
00:22:00.450 --> 00:22:00.950
chain.

235
00:22:02.289 --> 00:22:13.015
Actually, no. No. You you might not. I I'd have to actually check on that. And, realistically, I don't know if I can do that at at this exact moment. But either way EPS I think for EPS, you need the whole chain, and for Electromax,

236
00:22:13.395 --> 00:22:14.535
you can do pruned.

237
00:22:14.835 --> 00:22:15.495
And I

238
00:22:16.020 --> 00:22:23.640
I don't it's the other way around. Yeah. It looks like I I'm on the Oh, yeah. It is the other way around because Electromax is the server one. It's better for a server.

239
00:22:24.085 --> 00:22:30.825
Yeah. And so so what we do right now also is that there's we have a a secondary service on the embassy called Bitcoin proxy,

240
00:22:31.284 --> 00:22:39.870
which will dynamically fetch blocks. Like, when when it it's asked for a block, it'll dynamically fetch it from up here and then verify it against the headers that you keep.

241
00:22:40.250 --> 00:22:42.030
So for people that don't know

242
00:22:42.330 --> 00:22:50.304
how, like, the the the pruning system works in Bitcoin Core, it's that the block data itself is erased from the disk, but the header,

243
00:22:50.924 --> 00:22:58.450
is kept. And it has to be kept for proof of work reasons, which is how your node is able to know what the most valid, or the with the highest

244
00:22:59.070 --> 00:22:59.570
consensus,

245
00:23:00.590 --> 00:23:01.409
chain is.

246
00:23:01.905 --> 00:23:12.090
And so, all you would need to do is download the block from up here and then check it against the header that you kept and, you know, you would still know that it was valid even though you didn't have it on disk. But you don't have electrum

247
00:23:12.470 --> 00:23:13.929
support anyway right now?

248
00:23:14.230 --> 00:23:16.870
We don't have electrum support at at the moment,

249
00:23:17.509 --> 00:23:18.009
but

250
00:23:18.389 --> 00:23:32.840
we are working towards getting I I think BWT is something that we were looking at for a bit, which is Shesx project, which is also Electron based. And that works for pruned. I know that works for Pruned node. It's on it's on the service road map on the website. The

251
00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:36.679
the I mean, the key thing here is is Keegan said the,

252
00:23:37.085 --> 00:23:41.345
and and I the reason I'm answering this is because this is the first critique I gave them.

253
00:23:42.525 --> 00:23:52.450
But you missed this, Keegan. Is is is it 2 fold with the SD card. Right? You use performant SD cards as performant as possible, and then second of all, you cover your ass with the backups.

254
00:23:52.855 --> 00:23:59.035
And whether that's the seed backups or with lightning, you have static static channel backups to a USB drive. Right?

255
00:23:59.495 --> 00:24:01.230
Yep. Yeah. You can plug in,

256
00:24:02.030 --> 00:24:08.845
any any, like, storage medium into the USB port, and then you'll be able to back up the the entire service data

257
00:24:09.485 --> 00:24:10.544
and restore it,

258
00:24:10.924 --> 00:24:12.145
to another embassy.

259
00:24:12.525 --> 00:24:16.544
It's like the we don't do anything fancy necessarily with, like,

260
00:24:17.130 --> 00:24:24.830
the the data storage, so you wouldn't necessarily have to recover it to a an embassy. But for obvious reasons, we don't support support one click restores

261
00:24:25.195 --> 00:24:28.495
to anything other than the Embassy. Yeah. But lightning, it's risky always.

262
00:24:29.435 --> 00:24:34.450
We do do something special for lightning in the case of both LND and c lightning, which is that,

263
00:24:34.929 --> 00:24:36.070
we don't actually

264
00:24:36.769 --> 00:24:44.445
backup or restore the state that can cause you to get all of your channel funds stolen. It's SCB. Right? A static channel. Just the SCB.

265
00:24:44.825 --> 00:24:48.284
So they'd automatically closes your channels and restores it to your seed.

266
00:24:48.585 --> 00:24:49.085
Correct.

267
00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:52.720
But so so the key here for the freaks is

268
00:24:53.100 --> 00:24:55.520
is trade offs are made to keep the cost down,

269
00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:58.800
and they were mitigated through these techniques.

270
00:24:59.605 --> 00:25:02.825
And an SSD version should be coming relatively

271
00:25:04.085 --> 00:25:08.085
soon, I guess. Right? Yeah. So, soon TM. It's like the it's it's like

272
00:25:09.060 --> 00:25:09.560
They're,

273
00:25:10.740 --> 00:25:17.640
not 2 weeks. I can't not really say it'll be longer than that. But, I do know that it is it more than one of our developers

274
00:25:18.165 --> 00:25:36.174
is working full time on that particular work stream right now as their number one priority, and we try to interrupt them as little as humanly possible. Just to be clear to me, there's not like a Raspberry Pi case that is exactly perfect for making a full note. And if and if there was, it'd probably be a little suspect,

275
00:25:36.715 --> 00:25:52.465
because it'd be it'd be too much too too too much of a good thing to a little hot honeypot. But but yeah. I feel like a RASPy a RASPy case is, like, a perfect arguing topic for Bitcorners. Like, everyone probably has their favorite RASPy case that's perfect for a node though.

276
00:25:52.845 --> 00:26:02.740
No. That's the thing. There it it should in it should include because they're they're coming out with ones now that, like, because you can there's this Raspberry Pi compute card.

277
00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:08.660
Right? So it doesn't have all it's it doesn't have all the IO broken out. It's just pretty much the chip.

278
00:26:09.175 --> 00:26:14.795
And then you can plug it into a board. And so do they have these boards that have their own IO, and they'll, like, put, like,

279
00:26:15.415 --> 00:26:20.590
like, an NVMe drive or something like that. Or or, you know, they they can do, like, PCIe

280
00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:24.350
expansion from, like, you know, this one tiny little

281
00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:26.525
compute card. But I haven't seen one.

282
00:26:36.130 --> 00:26:37.190
8 pi cluster.

283
00:26:37.809 --> 00:26:42.230
Exactly. Maximalist. No. But just you're sidetracking us, Paul. First of all,

284
00:26:43.205 --> 00:26:43.705
Keegan,

285
00:26:45.125 --> 00:26:45.365
the

286
00:26:46.565 --> 00:26:48.725
what were we talking about? We were talking about

287
00:26:50.405 --> 00:26:52.105
fuck. I completely forgot.

288
00:26:53.320 --> 00:26:57.320
Well, I mean, we were talking about various, like, pieces of redundancy and and, like,

289
00:26:58.120 --> 00:26:58.940
sort of safety,

290
00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:01.900
around these sorts of, pie projects.

291
00:27:02.745 --> 00:27:03.245
Right.

292
00:27:04.265 --> 00:27:12.490
I mean, if you don't have something, there's some there's some stuff in the chat that I actually did wanna address. 61 has just a couple of questions that the one, how long will the SD card last?

293
00:27:12.890 --> 00:27:18.270
And the the the ones that we sell, not the ones like, if you did the DIY,

294
00:27:18.809 --> 00:27:19.790
Embassy project,

295
00:27:20.345 --> 00:27:24.745
I can't make any guarantees about the quality of the SD card that you put in your,

296
00:27:25.225 --> 00:27:25.965
your DIY.

297
00:27:26.585 --> 00:27:29.620
But the ones that we sell from HQ

298
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:41.685
will last as long as you're not doing, like, IBD and then nuking your device and then the IBD again in, initial blockchain download. Because as long as you're not doing that, it'll last for, like, you know, at least 4 years. It's

299
00:27:42.485 --> 00:27:46.799
I think that our like, some of our calculations had it at 6. But,

300
00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:48.159
you know, obviously,

301
00:27:48.700 --> 00:28:02.630
the the more activity you put on it, the shorter the lifetime is. But as I said, also, when you when they when they do fail, they fail to write. They don't really fail to read. So you can actually just copy it over to a new one and sort of keep going.

302
00:28:03.970 --> 00:28:05.830
And then the second question that 60102

303
00:28:06.370 --> 00:28:10.235
or thing that he brought up, which I wanna talk about is, using RAID,

304
00:28:10.695 --> 00:28:11.755
which is a redundant,

305
00:28:13.015 --> 00:28:15.034
storage medium such that, like,

306
00:28:15.414 --> 00:28:17.195
individual drives can fail

307
00:28:17.750 --> 00:28:18.950
without having the,

308
00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:23.770
the entire file system on the device fail all at once.

309
00:28:24.950 --> 00:28:32.935
That is something that we are considering very closely. I have been advocating for it for quite some time. It it's work that has not been scheduled,

310
00:28:33.690 --> 00:28:37.230
but, it's very much on our radar and things that I,

311
00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:42.975
I ask for one of our I asked I asked my my brother and cofounder, Aidan,

312
00:28:43.375 --> 00:28:45.294
weekly for that feature. So

313
00:28:46.815 --> 00:28:53.190
I think backup is really interesting. Like, I I had a node a little while ago that was just kind of on a, like,

314
00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:56.250
kinda old desktop PC

315
00:28:56.550 --> 00:29:03.665
that I had sitting around. And I set it all up and I spent all this time, got up and running, and then and it died because it was old bad hardware.

316
00:29:04.925 --> 00:29:11.600
And then it's like, well, I'm now I just gotta do every little step that that I this was like preambul.

317
00:29:12.300 --> 00:29:19.600
I gotta do every little step all again. So I do like this idea. Like, do do you guys know the concept? They talk about this in, like, DevOps,

318
00:29:20.045 --> 00:29:23.265
where your servers should be like cattle, not like pets?

319
00:29:24.525 --> 00:29:34.410
Yep. I have heard that. Like, in cloud computing, you you want the the ideal state is that you could have one tiny little configuration file, and then obviously backups of important

320
00:29:35.030 --> 00:29:38.090
state. But but that you could with a touch of a button,

321
00:29:38.415 --> 00:29:45.395
spin up spin it up on any server in the world. And it's it's, identical, and it works just the same. Instead of one

322
00:29:45.870 --> 00:29:54.050
precious server running somewhere that you're tending to and you're terrified, what if this goes down? Because then I have to get all the way back to my current

323
00:29:54.414 --> 00:29:58.434
scenario that I've achieved over years of tending to this pet server.

324
00:29:59.135 --> 00:30:04.220
Yeah. The so I do I do wanna comment a little bit on that. Like, the the redundancy

325
00:30:04.520 --> 00:30:08.700
that you get from having, like from being able to spin these sorts of things up on demand

326
00:30:09.320 --> 00:30:12.700
is very helpful in most cases, but what it does is it introduces

327
00:30:13.165 --> 00:30:16.465
consistency problems between the data between different,

328
00:30:17.565 --> 00:30:31.585
copies of the server. So for things like your file servers, maybe that's not a huge issue. But if you do that with your lightning nodes, you're probably gonna get your funds stolen. So it's not quite as simple as it might sound in order to get things, to be redundant in that way.

329
00:30:32.524 --> 00:30:44.520
What would be, like, the per like, if you if you are your own bank and you're running lightning and I'm also interested in other services like like Bitwarden you guys have. Yeah. Like, that's something I use, and I pay Bitwarden

330
00:30:45.155 --> 00:30:58.840
because they're holding on to my passwords, and I I really don't want this to happen. To your encrypted passwords. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I don't want I don't wanna screw that up. So I'm trusting them, but I would like to get into a place where I trusted myself to run the box

331
00:30:59.275 --> 00:31:00.655
that holds my passwords.

332
00:31:02.155 --> 00:31:04.975
But, like, what is Yeah. I mean ideal scenario?

333
00:31:05.835 --> 00:31:10.340
I mean, like, we we have a bit word in application on the embassy today,

334
00:31:11.360 --> 00:31:20.405
and, you know, we do with that same backup system that I was describing earlier works just as well for Bitwarden, and it just replicates the state onto a second storage medium,

335
00:31:21.505 --> 00:31:26.950
which could be restored if you ever, like, lose or the the car breaks down and you have to restore it.

336
00:31:29.029 --> 00:31:39.995
So So you just plug it It's it's just data. You know? You just plug a USB drive in, like like, once a week or something, and you kinda back stuff up. And that's not, obviously, not perfect for lightning,

337
00:31:40.615 --> 00:31:41.115
but,

338
00:31:41.975 --> 00:32:08.130
you're you're kinda No. No. I mean, you can just have a USB drive plugged in all the time. Right? And all the backup. But no. But you don't you don't well, you don't there's like there's like a rule for this. You don't want backups in the exact same if if if your server catches on fire because Embassy Yeah. Sold you a shitty case. True. You know? And then that's gonna melt the USB right next to you. Yeah. So the it depends on what your primary risk profiles are. Right? Like, all of the discussion around redundancy

339
00:32:08.510 --> 00:32:08.990
and,

340
00:32:09.695 --> 00:32:13.395
security can only be considered in the presence of, like, an actual threat model.

341
00:32:13.934 --> 00:32:24.010
So if you're, like, principally worried, like, yes. Put plugging a USB stick into the back of your embassy and leaving it there is not gonna save you from a house fire. Not unless the thing is, like, like,

342
00:32:24.355 --> 00:32:30.695
very, very well engineered against heat or whatever, and I don't know of anything that does that. But it will absolutely

343
00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:33.090
save you from, like, a,

344
00:32:33.549 --> 00:32:50.310
like, data corruption on the card. Right? Right. Or or something like that. So it's it's not a panacea to leave it in the back, but it's also not useless either. Alright. So this is Oh, go ahead, man. This is a this is a like, so so when we're talking about, like, creating user friendly,

345
00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:51.670
UX,

346
00:32:51.970 --> 00:33:01.175
right, in in this type of environment, like, we're trying to we're trying to foster self hosting in a user friendly way, a lot of times that results in

347
00:33:01.875 --> 00:33:06.010
you kinda making decisions for your user in terms of what their threat model

348
00:33:06.470 --> 00:33:07.530
is most likely.

349
00:33:08.230 --> 00:33:18.725
Like, how do you circle that square? Right? Like, just like what you just said. Right? Is and for some people, you have USB plugged in is best, or some people, they do it once a week. But, really,

350
00:33:19.105 --> 00:33:26.100
the worst thing UX wise for a new user is almost being expected to make that choice and not even know.

351
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:29.460
Yeah. That's that's a great question.

352
00:33:30.235 --> 00:33:33.855
I'm not sure I have, like, a great answer for you on that particular

353
00:33:34.315 --> 00:33:38.929
on that particular one just yet. We do want to get to a point where,

354
00:33:39.250 --> 00:33:50.715
backups are a little bit more automatic because right now they are manual. It does require user intervention. And we do we do sort of show you when your last backup of each individual service was to try to encourage,

355
00:33:51.095 --> 00:33:54.955
you know, for so that you know, like, if you're exposed or not. But,

356
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:57.540
you know, the only thing that we'll get to,

357
00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:11.555
automatic backups is if we do some sort of cloud service, which we can do, but then that trades off the availability for that trust component. Right? Now don't do, dude, 6102 solve it. Backup buddy.

358
00:34:11.855 --> 00:34:12.355
Okay.

359
00:34:13.089 --> 00:34:13.990
So 6102

360
00:34:14.530 --> 00:34:15.670
spends up an embassy,

361
00:34:15.970 --> 00:34:17.670
gives me an onion URL.

362
00:34:17.970 --> 00:34:22.935
I copy and paste. And that's my backup URL. And I've got like 5 megabytes

363
00:34:23.235 --> 00:34:33.510
or, you know, 5th, you know, like 1 gigabyte of whatever he he's willing to store for me on his embassy. Right? And so I encrypt it locally,

364
00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:35.430
back it up to that URL.

365
00:34:35.810 --> 00:34:41.575
And and we're we're we're IRL friends. Well, not we're not IRL friends. We're, Internet friends,

366
00:34:42.035 --> 00:34:42.535
and

367
00:34:43.235 --> 00:34:48.695
and so we just trust each other. And maybe I have a a few backup buddies in case 6102 lets me down.

368
00:34:49.155 --> 00:34:50.135
Yeah. So

369
00:34:50.490 --> 00:34:55.390
we would like we're actually very excited about the prospect of things like that, including

370
00:34:56.010 --> 00:34:58.510
not just that, but being able to pay

371
00:34:59.075 --> 00:34:59.575
for

372
00:35:00.035 --> 00:35:01.895
that hosting, that backup,

373
00:35:02.835 --> 00:35:05.015
with, you know, lightning micropayments

374
00:35:05.474 --> 00:35:06.214
over time.

375
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:09.380
And as long as you're,

376
00:35:09.839 --> 00:35:13.140
like if it depends on whether you do full replicas or partial replicas.

377
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:17.535
But the same way that we use Merkle trees and Bitcoin, you could use Merkle trees to,

378
00:35:17.994 --> 00:35:18.494
have

379
00:35:18.875 --> 00:35:22.335
very compact proofs that you still actually hold the data.

380
00:35:23.810 --> 00:35:31.214
It's but this I I I need to be responsible here. When I talk about that particular thing, that's that's like, we're not

381
00:35:31.595 --> 00:35:32.494
even seriously

382
00:35:32.954 --> 00:35:40.370
researching that yet. It's more about musing, about things that we'd like to be able to do once we've gotten the stuff out of the way that we need to get done in the interim.

383
00:35:40.910 --> 00:35:42.610
For q q 2?

384
00:35:45.310 --> 00:35:45.810
No.

385
00:35:47.474 --> 00:35:50.214
Like, you know, we still gotta get the external drive support,

386
00:35:50.595 --> 00:35:52.935
done first and stuff like that. And,

387
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:59.060
but, yeah, it's it's definitely stuff that we're very interested in in making happen.

388
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:00.420
I just remembered,

389
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:01.619
what I forgot,

390
00:36:02.345 --> 00:36:05.645
which is important because that was the first time I actually forgot something,

391
00:36:06.185 --> 00:36:08.925
on on Sysl Dispatch and didn't remember,

392
00:36:09.465 --> 00:36:11.725
within, like, 15 seconds of

393
00:36:12.640 --> 00:36:15.140
of just delaying time while I try and remember.

394
00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:18.340
I wanted to tell you, Keegan, that when I made that joke

395
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:21.625
about 2 weeks, it was a joke based on,

396
00:36:22.325 --> 00:36:38.845
like, a big it's a Bitcoin curve? No. No. No. It's a Bitcoin it's before flattening the curve. There was there was Butterfly Labs, one of the early ASIC miners that said 2 weeks, you're gonna get your your miners, and also Mt. Gox was perennially 2 weeks away from adding Litecoin, which they never added.

397
00:36:39.225 --> 00:36:40.445
So it became like

398
00:36:41.225 --> 00:36:46.445
a it became like a Bitcoin meme that, like, every company was was gonna get your dream feature in 2 weeks.

399
00:36:47.150 --> 00:36:55.890
Yeah. So that was a that's definitely a meme, I think, that even transcends Bitcoin. Back before I actually got into Bitcoin, a lot of companies would be like, yeah. We'll we'll

400
00:36:56.205 --> 00:36:57.585
we'll have it in 2 weeks.

401
00:36:58.205 --> 00:37:08.530
I think that's just a more of a joke about, like, scrum and agile processes, which is a popular software development project management style, which everything is quantized into 2 week chunks.

402
00:37:08.990 --> 00:37:12.430
And so they're like, you'll have it at the next release. And it's like

403
00:37:13.265 --> 00:37:18.565
I never put 2 into so you think a lot of time these companies think it's just 1 scrum away?

404
00:37:19.505 --> 00:37:23.850
I don't know if they think that or if they're just trying to appease people. Okay.

405
00:37:25.110 --> 00:37:35.355
You know, we're we like, I I try to be responsible. I because here's the thing. I don't really get to dictate these schedules. I, you know, I work at the the pace that I can, and we get them out as fast as we can.

406
00:37:36.135 --> 00:37:43.520
But I'm not actually aware of all of the moving pieces at any given moment that causes a particular feature to be able to get delivered by a particular date.

407
00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:53.244
All I can tell you with certainty is kind of like what, you know, in the like, people who work at start 9's priorities are right now. That I'm pretty confident in.

408
00:37:54.105 --> 00:37:54.605
So,

409
00:37:56.020 --> 00:37:58.680
that's why I kinda made claims of that particular flavor.

410
00:37:59.140 --> 00:37:59.880
Fair enough.

411
00:38:01.140 --> 00:38:06.825
I'm glad I got that off my chest. That was really bothering me for the last about 20 minutes or so, 15 minutes. Too.

412
00:38:08.725 --> 00:38:10.505
So Matt. I mean yes?

413
00:38:10.885 --> 00:38:12.505
Can I ask you a privacy question?

414
00:38:12.805 --> 00:38:13.625
Yeah. Okay.

415
00:38:14.059 --> 00:38:24.205
It says support the show with Ellen URL, and there's a QR code. Right? Yeah. Already I had I didn't even acknowledge it, and 3 freaks already donated through it. Let's say,

416
00:38:25.625 --> 00:38:27.565
me me me or a friend

417
00:38:28.265 --> 00:38:29.325
has strike.

418
00:38:30.025 --> 00:38:30.525
Right.

419
00:38:31.850 --> 00:38:33.950
Does that does that docks you

420
00:38:34.650 --> 00:38:40.510
to pay that QR code with strike? Are you are you No. I don't know if strike I don't think strike supports lnurls,

421
00:38:40.810 --> 00:38:42.195
so I don't think you can.

422
00:38:42.575 --> 00:38:43.075
Uh-huh.

423
00:38:45.295 --> 00:38:51.369
V 4 l r 4 v three n is asking if I can move the QR code to block the Coinbase pro price.

424
00:38:54.150 --> 00:39:00.795
I I I'm I don't know, man. I, like, I I tried to make this work, like, 45 minutes before the show started. So,

425
00:39:01.175 --> 00:39:10.210
it's gonna be a work in progress. I'm gonna try and figure out how to move it around. It's just cool that you could have a static QR code just to the to the freaks that are listening to the audio stream.

426
00:39:11.310 --> 00:39:13.890
We have a static QR code up on the screen,

427
00:39:14.765 --> 00:39:15.744
using lnurl.

428
00:39:16.204 --> 00:39:19.265
Basically, if you scan this with a with a,

429
00:39:19.964 --> 00:39:21.664
compatible lightning wallet,

430
00:39:21.964 --> 00:39:23.505
it connects to the URL

431
00:39:24.020 --> 00:39:28.520
that the QR code is there, and it serves them a unique invoice. So every invoice is different,

432
00:39:30.819 --> 00:39:33.160
and it's it's a way to accept

433
00:39:33.535 --> 00:39:34.035
payments,

434
00:39:34.734 --> 00:39:40.035
in a static way that's more privacy conscious than, let's say, just providing, like, an on chain address.

435
00:39:41.135 --> 00:39:42.035
In this case,

436
00:39:43.310 --> 00:39:47.730
it's, you know, it's not it's not my node. It's it's using fiatjaf's,

437
00:39:48.910 --> 00:39:49.410
LNTX

438
00:39:49.870 --> 00:39:52.655
bot, which is a Telegram bot,

439
00:39:53.115 --> 00:39:57.295
that's a custodial lightning wallet that provides you with lnurl

440
00:39:57.755 --> 00:39:58.255
functionality.

441
00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:02.740
And you can find my static QR code atln10

442
00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:05.140
transactionbot.big

443
00:40:06.475 --> 00:40:06.975
sun.xyz/at

444
00:40:08.075 --> 00:40:12.655
mattodell, which is a fucking mouthful. So instead, the QR code goes on the top right.

445
00:40:13.435 --> 00:40:14.735
Did that answer your question?

446
00:40:15.220 --> 00:40:15.720
Absolutely.

447
00:40:16.340 --> 00:40:21.240
In the meantime, we've had 5 freaks. 5 freaks have donated through that. That's pretty cool.

448
00:40:22.075 --> 00:40:31.135
And I guess some wallets allow them to provide messages. So I I don't know. It was just something that I think is sorely needed, this idea of providing something that's static for donations,

449
00:40:32.060 --> 00:40:38.640
without having, like, a BTC pay server that doesn't and the key here is is maybe my privacy is still kind of

450
00:40:40.355 --> 00:40:47.895
not great on the receiver side, but the sender side privacy is significantly better. Right? So, like, if I if I had, like, a static on chain

451
00:40:48.369 --> 00:40:48.869
QR

452
00:40:49.329 --> 00:40:49.829
code,

453
00:40:51.089 --> 00:40:57.509
that would be way you can you could see all the donations come through sending address it came from. Right? Like, right on chain.

454
00:40:58.505 --> 00:40:59.885
You can't do that with this.

455
00:41:02.025 --> 00:41:03.325
Yeah. I mean, that's because

456
00:41:03.704 --> 00:41:08.290
Lightning in general does not actually propagate every payment to every node in the network.

457
00:41:08.910 --> 00:41:10.130
That's, like, the whole point.

458
00:41:13.045 --> 00:41:16.585
Yeah. I it's weird. Like, when lightning was starting out,

459
00:41:17.045 --> 00:41:22.310
I, like, learned everything about lightning. I was so into lightning. And now I feel like I need, like,

460
00:41:23.190 --> 00:41:25.770
I needed to, like, go back to lightning school.

461
00:41:26.310 --> 00:41:28.970
Like, I forgot everything I learned about it because I, like,

462
00:41:29.270 --> 00:41:31.290
stopped paying attention for, like, a year.

463
00:41:32.045 --> 00:41:38.705
And that's on me. Yeah. Yeah. There's, I mean, there's definitely, like, different levels of understanding lightning. Right? There's the sort of

464
00:41:39.230 --> 00:42:01.480
the the way that you understand it of, like, okay. It's just a series of of bilateral agreements between people. And then there's, like, the okay. Like, what messages actually get passed across the wire? And, like, there's the entire continuum between. And it's it's a very deep hole. Like, I myself actually haven't reached the bottom, and I work in this stuff every day. Right. Like, how how do you do onion routing if you don't

465
00:42:02.420 --> 00:42:06.200
how do you pick a route if you don't know what all the hops are?

466
00:42:07.535 --> 00:42:14.515
I mean, you do know every node in the graph and every channel that exists, but you don't know what the relative balances of each counterparty

467
00:42:14.870 --> 00:42:15.690
on that,

468
00:42:16.070 --> 00:42:18.810
channel are. So if, like, you and I have a channel

469
00:42:19.110 --> 00:42:41.075
and, like, we've opened 1, the whole the whole network unless we've made it a private channel. Like, the whole network knows that you and I have a channel together. But if it's like if I have, like, 1 Bitcoin on my side and you have, like, half a Bitcoin on your side, no one's gonna know that that versus, like, if it was the other way around. Like, you can't tell. The only way that you can tell is you can just try to route a payment

470
00:42:41.795 --> 00:42:42.855
through it, and it'll either succeed or fail.

471
00:42:43.555 --> 00:42:44.055
Right.

472
00:42:46.515 --> 00:42:53.109
Yeah. I got a lot I got a lot of work to do on this. But the the nuance the nuance there is if you have a private channel

473
00:42:53.410 --> 00:43:00.105
that is lower if you you could have a channel let's say me and you are routing nodes and we have, like, 14,000,000

474
00:43:00.405 --> 00:43:06.105
sat private channel, we could have, like, a 1,000,000 sat public channel and we could route through

475
00:43:06.980 --> 00:43:08.120
that private channel,

476
00:43:08.900 --> 00:43:17.525
but people wouldn't know the private channel exists, but the max payment would be 1,000,000 sats. It would be whatever the public channel is showing. But you you could only route through

477
00:43:18.885 --> 00:43:24.819
only you can route through a private channel No. Unless you have a mirroring public channel. So sometimes

478
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:25.619
sometimes

479
00:43:26.000 --> 00:43:35.515
routing nodes will have a public channel that shows less capacity than their private channel really has in the background, and that private channel can dynamically route through that private channel,

480
00:43:36.615 --> 00:43:40.075
if they have a public private situation, which apparently

481
00:43:40.855 --> 00:43:46.380
I'm told some of these large, you know, regulated KYC type nodes have

482
00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:48.380
shadow private channels

483
00:43:48.680 --> 00:43:50.140
amongst their their

484
00:43:51.025 --> 00:43:55.525
publicly broadcast channels. So so The reason you might wanna do that as well is because,

485
00:43:56.065 --> 00:44:00.325
that will gate the the maximum payment size that people will attempt to do.

486
00:44:00.760 --> 00:44:08.700
I don't know as much about how c lightning works, but I recently learned that LND will actually pick the, quote, unquote, optimal channel to forward a payment through,

487
00:44:10.455 --> 00:44:17.195
even if, the one that was requested by the the source was different. So if you have, like, 3 channels between the same two parties,

488
00:44:17.550 --> 00:44:38.340
it'll pick the one that's most likely to work. And so in this case, it might be your really fat private channel even though what was requested was that public one. And if the public one is only 1,000,000 in size and the the private one's 14,000,000 in size, the maximum payment size is gonna be like 1,000,000 and, you know, you're not crushing the entire liquidity of the channel in one shot.

489
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:45.265
So just just to rewind a little bit, and I I'm sorry. I'll let you guys keep back on track. This is helpful for me.

490
00:44:45.744 --> 00:44:46.244
So,

491
00:44:47.025 --> 00:44:48.484
assuming strike supported,

492
00:44:49.505 --> 00:44:50.005
lnurl,

493
00:44:50.704 --> 00:44:53.204
I'd scan this QR code.

494
00:44:53.710 --> 00:44:55.410
My, you know, it was.

495
00:44:56.029 --> 00:45:04.695
Okay. Let's assume I actually have it actual lightning node. My lightning node would make a plan for like, I think I know how to get to this destination.

496
00:45:05.315 --> 00:45:08.615
And then it would ship it off in an onion or whatever.

497
00:45:08.915 --> 00:45:10.535
And then those will get past

498
00:45:11.040 --> 00:45:16.980
hop to hop in the hops in the the plan that I started out with. But along the way,

499
00:45:17.599 --> 00:45:21.645
those actual nodes could make their own decisions of how they actually routed.

500
00:45:22.585 --> 00:45:23.085
Correct.

501
00:45:23.785 --> 00:45:24.285
Nice.

502
00:45:25.065 --> 00:45:25.565
Cool.

503
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:35.815
This is helpful. And but limit limited decision making. Right? It's not like they can totally change their route. But, like, if and and, Anthony from the chat,

504
00:45:36.214 --> 00:45:38.635
correctly points out that c lightning doesn't actually,

505
00:45:39.175 --> 00:45:42.315
allow multiple channels between the same pair of peers at the moment.

506
00:45:43.175 --> 00:45:51.000
So c lightning cannot do the thing that I described earlier. But l and d, if you have, like, 3 channels between the same two peers and one of them was requested

507
00:45:51.385 --> 00:45:55.085
and it won't work, it will actually choose, an alternative one,

508
00:45:55.705 --> 00:46:06.090
between the same peer. So from the the source's perspective, the route from a a node's perspective looks exactly the same even though the actual channel points that are being used might be slightly different.

509
00:46:09.405 --> 00:46:11.005
Cortic in chat asks,

510
00:46:11.805 --> 00:46:20.140
it's just scrolled off the screen, but something like, what are the KYC nodes? And and the idea with the KYC node, correct me if I'm wrong, it's it's the idea that, like,

511
00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:23.259
if I'm paying from Stripe, Stripe is KYC'd.

512
00:46:23.559 --> 00:46:25.819
And so and if I pay Matt,

513
00:46:26.305 --> 00:46:28.244
Strike knows, oh, you just paid

514
00:46:28.545 --> 00:46:29.445
this destination.

515
00:46:29.905 --> 00:46:36.350
So I know where this money went, and I know who it's from. So in some sense, strike is keeping track of

516
00:46:36.730 --> 00:46:48.075
who is get you know, not not that they know the name of the person at the other end. But, you know, it if it's publicly advertised, it might be pretty obvious. And so now there's a record somewhere

517
00:46:48.375 --> 00:46:53.369
that this this node received funds from this specific government person.

518
00:46:53.829 --> 00:46:55.849
Like, a a government named person.

519
00:46:57.829 --> 00:46:58.650
Is that correct?

520
00:46:59.855 --> 00:47:03.075
I'm not quite sure I understand the scenario being laid out here.

521
00:47:04.335 --> 00:47:06.995
Like, the the privacy risk of of spending

522
00:47:07.770 --> 00:47:09.630
from strike to a

523
00:47:10.010 --> 00:47:10.510
a

524
00:47:10.810 --> 00:47:15.230
a random lightning node is that strike is keeping track of that payment.

525
00:47:15.705 --> 00:47:17.405
Right. It's it's it's yes.

526
00:47:17.785 --> 00:47:23.645
It's when when you scan when you scan a lightning invoice, a traditional lightning invoice,

527
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:25.300
it includes

528
00:47:25.680 --> 00:47:26.080
a

529
00:47:26.560 --> 00:47:28.900
your lightning node's public key of the receiver.

530
00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:33.300
Okay? That public key does not change. Supposedly,

531
00:47:34.085 --> 00:47:37.224
there's work being done to rotate that, but right now

532
00:47:37.845 --> 00:47:42.105
that that doesn't change. So that public key can be tied to an individual,

533
00:47:43.099 --> 00:47:44.000
and, specifically,

534
00:47:44.300 --> 00:47:46.960
if the lightning payment has a memo in it,

535
00:47:47.260 --> 00:47:48.240
so I say,

536
00:47:49.099 --> 00:47:51.520
Paul is paying me for my baby shower.

537
00:47:51.980 --> 00:47:53.974
Right? Then strike knows

538
00:47:54.275 --> 00:48:05.000
that Paul is paying his friend to this public key, and that guy just had a baby. Right? Because they know the they know what's in the invoice as well. Now Yep. There's an interesting

539
00:48:05.860 --> 00:48:11.000
there's there's 2 interesting exceptions there. The first is a custodial lightning node,

540
00:48:12.635 --> 00:48:15.135
which is what the case is here with this lnurl

541
00:48:15.435 --> 00:48:16.735
test that we just did,

542
00:48:17.115 --> 00:48:20.175
or if you use BlueWallet or if you use Wallet of Satoshi.

543
00:48:21.080 --> 00:48:29.260
These are 2 major custodial lightning nodes. The other one is Moon, actually, Moon Wallet, which is quickly becoming one of my favorite recommendations

544
00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:30.380
to noobs

545
00:48:31.065 --> 00:48:31.724
on mobile,

546
00:48:32.425 --> 00:48:32.925
automatically

547
00:48:33.385 --> 00:48:34.845
rotates your public key.

548
00:48:35.145 --> 00:48:36.365
So every invoice

549
00:48:36.665 --> 00:48:38.925
through Moon Wallet has a different pub key.

550
00:48:40.020 --> 00:48:40.520
Woah.

551
00:48:41.060 --> 00:48:44.200
Wow. It's pretty cool. I found that out today. Do they, like, fork,

552
00:48:44.580 --> 00:48:45.080
like,

553
00:48:46.235 --> 00:48:57.119
I don't know what to do with this. I have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. They could just be stealing every I I don't I don't think they're stealing people's money, but I have no idea what's happening behind the scenes. I just know that every time, if you go to lightningdecoder.com,

554
00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:06.505
you can't yeah. 61 and 2 just spelled it. It's spelled m u u n. Very cool mobile wallet, multiplatform.

555
00:49:07.525 --> 00:49:08.665
If you go to lightningdecoder.com,

556
00:49:10.485 --> 00:49:14.025
you can put a lightning invoice in, and it will tell you

557
00:49:14.640 --> 00:49:15.140
what

558
00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:17.860
is being shared by that invoice.

559
00:49:19.119 --> 00:49:22.260
And in that invoice, it'll always show a pub key,

560
00:49:22.875 --> 00:49:26.575
and usually that pub key should be fixed. If you're just paying someone's

561
00:49:27.115 --> 00:49:28.975
lnd on their start 9,

562
00:49:29.595 --> 00:49:32.575
you're paying their Umbral node, you're paying their Breeze Wallet,

563
00:49:33.740 --> 00:49:37.920
that public key will always be the same. With Moon, it's different every time.

564
00:49:38.700 --> 00:49:47.295
I think this is something that's really cool. This this is something we'll, like, learn over time. And, obviously, there there could be improvements to lightning as well, or there could be,

565
00:49:47.870 --> 00:50:01.645
l 2 or whatever. I don't know what that is. But but the but there is also there's a lot that we think of is what lightning is. It's just based on how it's implemented. So how c lightning chose to do it, or how l and d chose to do it, or how,

566
00:50:02.205 --> 00:50:05.345
LDK chooses to do it, or or whoever.

567
00:50:06.970 --> 00:50:15.695
It it and then it I think we'll, like, I'm learning more about lightning by, like, trying to differentiate between what the core protocol is and what the implementations

568
00:50:16.475 --> 00:50:17.295
do in practice.

569
00:50:21.870 --> 00:50:23.890
Yeah. Like, the the the different implementations,

570
00:50:24.590 --> 00:50:31.715
the some of the the things that we've already talked about are, like, you know, c lightning doesn't allow multiple channels between the same pair of peers.

571
00:50:32.195 --> 00:50:37.655
But, you know, l and d doesn't allow dual funding of channels, but cLightning does, like, recently,

572
00:50:37.955 --> 00:50:41.000
released experimental support for that. Or, you know, various,

573
00:50:42.740 --> 00:50:44.120
decisions made differently

574
00:50:44.660 --> 00:50:45.240
is actually

575
00:50:45.540 --> 00:50:47.155
quite hard to keep up with.

576
00:50:47.875 --> 00:50:49.815
I'm surprised that anyone can.

577
00:50:50.435 --> 00:50:53.095
I've tried, and I'm very behind.

578
00:50:57.800 --> 00:51:01.180
Some of them don't even define certain things at all, such as, like, LDK.

579
00:51:01.560 --> 00:51:04.780
Right? LDK doesn't actually define a, like, a storage

580
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:05.980
medium.

581
00:51:06.984 --> 00:51:08.845
Yeah. They leave that up to the user.

582
00:51:09.305 --> 00:51:10.605
We're still very early.

583
00:51:11.785 --> 00:51:16.770
Well, on this mail and URL stuff is built on it's almost like a layer 3. Like, it's built on top, and it's

584
00:51:17.730 --> 00:51:24.790
It's not really a standard per se. I mean, I guess, like, in this in this distributed world, this is how standards happen just, like, through peer pressure.

585
00:51:25.295 --> 00:51:25.795
Yeah.

586
00:51:26.095 --> 00:51:32.675
Right? Like, there's if the majority of wallets the majority of wallets fail when they scan that QR code. Right.

587
00:51:33.270 --> 00:51:35.610
Yeah. Let's give Jack shit about that.

588
00:51:36.470 --> 00:51:42.570
I mean, how long did it take to get Batch 32 into various wallets? Like, Coinbase didn't support it until, like, rather recently.

589
00:51:43.065 --> 00:51:47.005
But the cool part about Lightning is we don't have to deal with the consensus bullshit. Right?

590
00:51:48.825 --> 00:52:01.020
Sort of. I mean, Lightning you don't have to deal with l one consensus bullshit. Right. Like, obviously, there's there's a an l like, there's there's a certain amount of consensus in Lightning if it if only on how the messages are formatted. Right?

591
00:52:01.815 --> 00:52:02.315
Right.

592
00:52:03.255 --> 00:52:04.635
Yeah. There was a yeah.

593
00:52:05.175 --> 00:52:09.195
What was it? Like caps caps oh, no. That was back 32 caps addresses.

594
00:52:10.080 --> 00:52:16.500
Yeah. But I think wasn't there caps invoices? Wasn't that a thing for a little bit, whether or not we do caps invoices or lowercase?

595
00:52:18.205 --> 00:52:19.025
Yeah. I don't

596
00:52:19.365 --> 00:52:19.865
remember.

597
00:52:20.205 --> 00:52:24.785
I think we moved to caps. What? You could you could in a similar way to

598
00:52:25.220 --> 00:52:35.145
layer 1, you could fork yourself off of the Lightning Network by being incompatible with it. But in a very different way, you would not be creating a new money.

599
00:52:35.685 --> 00:52:36.745
Correct. Yeah.

600
00:52:37.765 --> 00:52:39.385
You just wouldn't work.

601
00:52:40.245 --> 00:52:47.359
Or or maybe because you had such a good idea, you'd work way better, and everybody would choose your your thing, and and then that's what would happen now.

602
00:52:51.075 --> 00:52:56.375
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a it's a completely different trade off balance, and it's pretty cool because you can have quicker development

603
00:52:56.675 --> 00:52:57.075
on,

604
00:52:57.475 --> 00:52:58.295
layer 2,

605
00:52:58.750 --> 00:53:01.490
which we're seeing. We're watching it happen in real time.

606
00:53:01.870 --> 00:53:09.155
Well and and, like, there's different this whole, like there's this tendency to believe that there's, like, a layer a distinct layer 1, a distinct layer 2, etcetera.

607
00:53:09.535 --> 00:53:13.955
But even within some of these protocols, there's, sort of a a stratification

608
00:53:14.255 --> 00:53:17.395
within layer 1 and within layer 2. And, like, one of the examples,

609
00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:43.240
I think is, like, some person just talked about derivation paths for h HD wallets should be standardized, and there's not enough peer pressure around that. Like, it took a long time to get those derivation paths. Like or BIP 32 even. BIP 32 is, like, sort of adjacent to layer 1, but it isn't technically part of it. Addresses don't even show up in the normal Bitcoin protocol rules. Like, if you try to look for any reference to an address in the actual protocol,

610
00:53:43.695 --> 00:53:47.955
like, you won't find it. You'll just find certain scripts are standard and certain scripts are not.

611
00:53:48.415 --> 00:53:48.915
So,

612
00:53:50.175 --> 00:53:55.750
the the the derivation paths is another is an example of one of those things. It's like adjacent. And so is, like, lnurl.

613
00:53:56.050 --> 00:53:58.150
It's not part of the protocol per se.

614
00:54:00.145 --> 00:54:02.484
Yeah. Like, that's a good way to think about it. Yeah.

615
00:54:07.585 --> 00:54:09.285
Yeah. I it it is

616
00:54:10.070 --> 00:54:13.130
it is definitely a handful for someone who just comes into Bitcoin,

617
00:54:13.910 --> 00:54:15.210
for the first time, but,

618
00:54:17.805 --> 00:54:22.225
you know, I I I I I think at the end of the day, this is what happens when,

619
00:54:23.485 --> 00:54:24.065
you know,

620
00:54:24.685 --> 00:54:27.500
you're you're dealing with a protocol that

621
00:54:28.060 --> 00:54:33.260
for most accounts, from from what most people expect, is is gonna outlive us all. Right? And,

622
00:54:34.620 --> 00:54:36.640
it moves slowly. It is a dinosaur.

623
00:54:37.925 --> 00:54:40.025
And it needs to be. Right? Yeah.

624
00:54:42.005 --> 00:54:49.940
This is I think is a good segue. I don't know if you guys wanna talk about Taproot at all. Oh, yeah. I already I have it on the scratch pad. I saw you were in the meeting today.

625
00:54:50.560 --> 00:54:57.085
Yeah. I was kinda in and out. I was kinda managing some start 9 release stuff and also trying to, like, you know, actually help push that along.

626
00:54:57.625 --> 00:54:58.105
But,

627
00:54:58.585 --> 00:55:06.339
you know, I think I it's it's scrolled off at this point, but I think Anthony was saying, like, only one implementation matters at the out layer 1.

628
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:13.444
We may we might see that change a little bit. And, actually, it might not it might already not be true because BTCD

629
00:55:13.744 --> 00:55:16.325
and Bitcoin Core are 2 different implementations.

630
00:55:17.105 --> 00:55:20.300
And they're I I mean, obviously, Bitcoin Core is,

631
00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:22.700
you know, widely widely used,

632
00:55:23.080 --> 00:55:24.859
but, some of the other implementations

633
00:55:25.160 --> 00:55:26.300
don't have trivial

634
00:55:26.945 --> 00:55:28.165
user accounts either.

635
00:55:29.025 --> 00:55:31.445
And as we get into this sort of this Taproot,

636
00:55:33.505 --> 00:55:35.845
Wait. Who doesn't have trivial user accounts?

637
00:55:36.950 --> 00:55:37.450
BTCD.

638
00:55:38.950 --> 00:55:40.890
It's trivial. It's still trivial.

639
00:55:41.350 --> 00:55:44.730
Okay. We might have different definitions of the word trivial, but,

640
00:55:45.895 --> 00:55:47.595
it is like the preferred implementation

641
00:55:48.055 --> 00:55:48.455
for,

642
00:55:48.855 --> 00:55:49.355
LND.

643
00:55:49.974 --> 00:55:52.875
Right. Fair. We do we don't use it personally.

644
00:55:54.530 --> 00:55:59.010
Did you say Anthony? Yeah. Anthony says, don't get me started on b to c d.

645
00:56:00.050 --> 00:56:08.135
Yeah. I haven't used it personally, so I don't really have anything good or bad to say about it. I just know that, you know, it it is that preferred implementation for the l and d team,

646
00:56:09.475 --> 00:56:11.735
primarily due to the language homogeneity.

647
00:56:12.520 --> 00:56:14.540
They're written in the same same language.

648
00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:16.200
So

649
00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:25.715
so let's talk about Taproot, because I have I have Ben Decarman and Evan Kaludis coming on next week, and we're gonna do, like, a deep dive into Taproot activation.

650
00:56:26.895 --> 00:56:29.395
But, like, you can front run them right now, so

651
00:56:29.850 --> 00:56:38.670
hit the freeze. Yeah. I mean, though those those guys are definitely gonna be more knowledgeable and sort of involved on this topic than I am. But, basically, what's going on right now is

652
00:56:39.244 --> 00:56:41.184
everybody has decided they want Taproot,

653
00:56:41.805 --> 00:56:44.704
but nobody can agree on exactly how to get it there.

654
00:56:48.100 --> 00:56:50.120
And as a result, we don't have Zaprut.

655
00:56:50.660 --> 00:56:52.600
And so there's a

656
00:56:53.985 --> 00:56:55.605
there's kind of a the main

657
00:56:56.145 --> 00:56:58.005
divergence is really how forcefully

658
00:56:58.465 --> 00:57:01.045
do we wanna come out the gate on getting it activated.

659
00:57:01.670 --> 00:57:03.210
Everybody wants to try something,

660
00:57:03.990 --> 00:57:07.849
and the the safest way to do that by far is to let the miners

661
00:57:08.470 --> 00:57:10.650
try to activate it. But as we saw

662
00:57:11.165 --> 00:57:23.119
with, you know, 2017 and the Segwit and block size wars and stuff, like, the miners can drag their feet and not activate it, and, like, they do need some pressure sometimes. And miners don't control the protocol either.

663
00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:26.640
And so you do you want the users to be able to have a say.

664
00:57:27.180 --> 00:57:27.995
And yet,

665
00:57:28.315 --> 00:57:33.035
you know, some people think that if you come out with a user activated soft fork out the gate,

666
00:57:33.515 --> 00:57:34.895
that that's a very forceful

667
00:57:35.195 --> 00:57:35.670
and,

668
00:57:36.230 --> 00:57:37.369
and or antagonistic

669
00:57:37.670 --> 00:57:39.369
approach towards the mining community.

670
00:57:40.069 --> 00:57:42.490
So that's where we're at right now.

671
00:57:42.790 --> 00:57:47.815
I think, you know, the the the latest developments are on something called speedy trial, which is,

672
00:57:48.515 --> 00:57:53.850
hypothetically designed to fail fast if it fails so that we don't waste a whole bunch of time,

673
00:57:54.230 --> 00:57:57.770
and ultimately not end up with, an activated taproot.

674
00:57:58.070 --> 00:58:00.970
As opposed to Ethereum, which is designed to fail slowly.

675
00:58:03.455 --> 00:58:05.395
I mean, I What? Maybe.

676
00:58:05.775 --> 00:58:08.620
I I thought it failed when the Etsy fork happened, you know?

677
00:58:09.260 --> 00:58:13.920
What's an example of 22 f? You just pronounced it Etsy. That's interesting.

678
00:58:15.340 --> 00:58:20.875
That's incorrect. It's e t c. Right? Okay. Sure. I like Etsy for like,

679
00:58:22.134 --> 00:58:24.634
maybe Okay, Paul. What what was your question? I apologize.

680
00:58:24.980 --> 00:58:34.680
What's what's what would what would be an example of being too agro to minors? Like, the minors are like, woah. This is all moving too fast for me. Like, what would that be be?

681
00:58:35.095 --> 00:58:37.755
Well, okay. So the What's the extreme case of that?

682
00:58:38.055 --> 00:58:45.310
The one of the proposals on the table known as BIP 8 has something that is called forced minor signaling, which means that

683
00:58:45.610 --> 00:59:00.755
even without the presence of actual Taproot transactions that they have to verify the rules for, they have to sort of raise their hand and say, yo, I'm I I promise I'm verifying these rules. And they have to say that in every block irrespective of whether Taproot transactions are in it or not.

684
00:59:01.099 --> 00:59:01.599
And,

685
00:59:02.859 --> 00:59:12.095
and if they don't, then that block is considered invalid, and it would basically cancel their revenue. So in some sense, they're not really doing any wrong because they're not actually After after

686
00:59:13.435 --> 00:59:16.075
it's activated, it would be that. Right? Correct.

687
00:59:16.955 --> 00:59:18.895
During what is called the lock in period.

688
00:59:19.355 --> 00:59:19.830
Right?

689
00:59:20.310 --> 00:59:20.810
So,

690
00:59:21.510 --> 00:59:28.410
yeah, a lot of this is enormously complicated stuff, but the the original proposal, the the BitPay proposal basically said, okay,

691
00:59:28.785 --> 00:59:33.365
That miners will include a special bit in the in the Coinbase transaction

692
00:59:33.905 --> 00:59:39.250
that basically says, hey. We support Taproot. And once a certain threshold of them do so,

693
00:59:39.790 --> 00:59:41.010
then it will,

694
00:59:41.950 --> 00:59:52.685
involve like, it it'll basically say, okay. Like, Taproot's locked in, and now everybody has to signal for it. And if you don't signal for it, then your, blocks are invalid even if there are no Taproot transactions in it.

695
00:59:53.785 --> 00:59:55.945
And then It seems fair. Once it's locked in

696
00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:15.200
Yep. And that's that's right. It's it it is locked in, in which case it's definitely fair that if it's once it activates, if they're approving transactions that are invalid under the Taproot rules, that their block should be rejected and that they lose out on the revenue. I guess But the the question is around like the the minor in a coma?

697
01:00:15.900 --> 01:00:24.744
Yeah. It would break it for the the minor in the coma, which, you know, on one hand, you wanna have you don't wanna be, like, ridiculous with how how quickly and how,

698
01:00:25.224 --> 01:00:33.799
forcefully you push these things through. But at the same time, you can't let one minor dragging their feet, be a reason to to hold up the rest of the network upgrade either.

699
01:00:35.859 --> 01:00:38.680
I know that so so in the chat, v 4 lr4v3n,

700
01:00:40.515 --> 01:00:54.500
is asking, is it possible that the lot consensus will not be achieved? So let me let me talk about what lot is for those of you who who don't know. It's this idea that once we we're gonna let miners try to voluntarily activate this for a period of time.

701
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:56.900
And the the most common

702
01:00:57.305 --> 01:01:03.724
agreed upon time frame for this is, like, 12 months after the deployment happens. But what happens at the end? Because if we don't

703
01:01:04.025 --> 01:01:05.325
we don't have a UASF,

704
01:01:06.110 --> 01:01:11.410
then miners effectively get a veto over the protocol or over over the activation of of,

705
01:01:11.950 --> 01:01:12.450
the

706
01:01:13.585 --> 01:01:20.805
of of Taproot. And the problem with that is that if my if not everybody does mining and it's only you only require, like, an 11%

707
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:25.020
of miners tagging their feet on it in order to sort of veto it indefinitely.

708
01:01:25.560 --> 01:01:31.305
A a a vanishingly small portion of the community can essentially block this upgrade. So we don't necessarily want that.

709
01:01:31.865 --> 01:01:36.605
But on the other hand, the only real way to to avoid that scenario is to sort of

710
01:01:36.984 --> 01:01:45.070
have a a brick wall UASF at the end that says, alright. You know, we don't really care, Miners, what you were doing in the meantime.

711
01:01:45.770 --> 01:01:46.330
We're going to,

712
01:01:47.675 --> 01:01:52.015
we're gonna activate this thing anyway, and you can either lose the revenue or you don't.

713
01:01:52.955 --> 01:01:57.950
And some people view that as unnecessarily forceful. I don't personally happen to agree,

714
01:01:58.650 --> 01:01:59.150
but,

715
01:01:59.930 --> 01:02:14.000
that is the other view. And it's actually, you know, of the long long time contributors to Bitcoin Core, that is actually the majority view is that it is too forceful to start with a lot equals like, with a UASF,

716
01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:19.415
finale, so to speak. It seems like it's you're trying to decide

717
01:02:19.875 --> 01:02:28.320
so much upfront. And, like, the whole point would be that you're trying to push this out to the network so that the, like, the network can signal what it wants.

718
01:02:28.700 --> 01:02:30.480
If you're like deciding everything

719
01:02:31.340 --> 01:02:33.600
all at once, it's just, I don't know.

720
01:02:34.035 --> 01:02:38.535
Seems it seems it seems to place so much on the developers

721
01:02:39.155 --> 01:02:40.615
to be correct

722
01:02:41.160 --> 01:02:41.900
in assessing

723
01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:44.380
what they think everybody wants.

724
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:55.765
That I think you're right. And and that's actually the impetus behind the the speedy trial initiative that's going on right now. So after there was a lot of debate and argument and largely

725
01:02:56.549 --> 01:03:02.250
not coming to consensus on the the lock in on time out parameter, the l o t if you've seen it,

726
01:03:03.325 --> 01:03:05.585
People were like, okay. Let's try

727
01:03:05.885 --> 01:03:23.484
essentially what is a, no lock in at the end. But let's make the period really short so that if it fails, it fails quickly and we don't lose a an entire year worth of time waiting for something that's not gonna happen. And we can just let the miners activate it early if they want. And if they don't, then we can revisit this discussion in 3 months.

728
01:03:24.424 --> 01:03:25.724
So that's kind of the

729
01:03:26.105 --> 01:03:30.390
that that has the most consensus behind it right now. And that's hear,

730
01:03:31.190 --> 01:03:33.049
so so first of all, Keegan,

731
01:03:33.589 --> 01:03:35.210
fucking fantastic explanation.

732
01:03:35.510 --> 01:03:39.450
Yeah. So Thank you. So the freaks, everything he said, I co cosigned a 100%.

733
01:03:40.295 --> 01:03:42.315
Keegan, were you here for 20 seventeen's,

734
01:03:42.775 --> 01:03:43.275
war?

735
01:03:43.895 --> 01:03:44.635
I I

736
01:03:45.655 --> 01:03:53.940
I I owned Bitcoin as early as 15, but I didn't really get into the space until the ICO bubble mid You were in part of the war. 2017.

737
01:03:54.400 --> 01:04:01.994
Correct. I I kinda I I came in right at the end when no two x was the, like, Twitter that that sort of Twitter signaling.

738
01:04:02.695 --> 01:04:03.195
Right.

739
01:04:03.559 --> 01:04:05.900
And right before the s two x,

740
01:04:06.680 --> 01:04:16.355
New York agreement failed, that's when I sort of came in as a a person as a contributor to the space. So so so the discussion doesn't make a 100%

741
01:04:16.655 --> 01:04:17.155
sense

742
01:04:17.455 --> 01:04:20.195
if you didn't experience that. Because what happened,

743
01:04:20.559 --> 01:04:21.619
Paul, is that

744
01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:23.059
is basically

745
01:04:24.000 --> 01:04:33.025
there's a there's a whole faction of Bitcoiners that that lives with PTSD right now. Like, at least they're rich, but they're they're rich people with PTSD,

746
01:04:34.045 --> 01:04:34.445
and,

747
01:04:35.405 --> 01:04:40.730
they they they they think the miners are out to fuck them because they we had Bitmain as the main

748
01:04:41.190 --> 01:04:48.985
the main miner. They were the main ASIC manufacturer, and they were the main miner, and they were the largest pool. So they were they they controlled

749
01:04:49.525 --> 01:04:54.745
probably the most we don't know for sure, but they probably controlled the most hash rate directly themselves.

750
01:04:55.290 --> 01:04:59.150
They definitely had the largest pool, and they were definitely the main manufacturer,

751
01:04:59.690 --> 01:05:02.109
and they fucked with us. Right? So

752
01:05:02.435 --> 01:05:06.615
so what happened? What happened was we had to do, basically, a Mexican standoff

753
01:05:07.475 --> 01:05:08.615
where users

754
01:05:08.915 --> 01:05:09.735
and devs

755
01:05:10.370 --> 01:05:13.190
kind of combined in an alliance to

756
01:05:13.970 --> 01:05:16.230
to run to run the UASF.

757
01:05:16.690 --> 01:05:17.095
Right?

758
01:05:17.575 --> 01:05:22.875
And and and so now you kinda have this PTSD where people have gone a little bit to the extreme,

759
01:05:23.415 --> 01:05:25.595
right, where they just want to

760
01:05:26.330 --> 01:05:29.230
they just wanna jump to the Mexican standoff right away,

761
01:05:29.690 --> 01:05:40.505
when in fact, we can just probably just have, like, a Mexican brunch. And, like, we can just we can, like, make some eggs and see if the miners wanna eat the eggs, and the miners eat the eggs, and there's no need to point guns at each other.

762
01:05:41.990 --> 01:05:44.810
I I hear that. At the same time, the thing that

763
01:05:45.990 --> 01:05:49.450
the thing that bothers I just feel like so much is being placed on the developers.

764
01:05:50.075 --> 01:05:53.615
But the developers are also seem to be the ones that are against giving,

765
01:05:55.035 --> 01:05:57.470
like a flag ability to

766
01:05:57.849 --> 01:05:59.869
when you run the software, you decide.

767
01:06:01.530 --> 01:06:05.630
And I I I just think, like like, you know, if if if it's non controversial,

768
01:06:06.135 --> 01:06:08.555
you know, let people run the software and and

769
01:06:09.095 --> 01:06:28.215
and flag that they're interested in. Because if if if if you get in this habit, and and it seems unlikely that we're gonna get a hap in a habit of easy soft forks, but we're gonna I mean, that's not happening. That's not happening. Of easy easy soft forks. You know, you you can have sort of the like, oh, I just run whatever the developers

770
01:06:28.835 --> 01:06:40.329
put in there. And if it changes consensus, it changes consensus. Right. You know? There's a bigger discussion here that I wanted to bring up with Keegan because I know he's super active in the Taproot discussion as well,

771
01:06:41.645 --> 01:06:46.385
is is that we have more users now. So so when 2017

772
01:06:46.765 --> 01:06:47.265
happened,

773
01:06:47.885 --> 01:06:50.465
we didn't have we didn't have Raspberry Pi Blitz.

774
01:06:51.090 --> 01:06:55.910
We didn't have Nava. We didn't have My Note. We didn't have start 9. We didn't have Umbral.

775
01:06:57.890 --> 01:06:59.350
Where do you see yourself,

776
01:07:01.005 --> 01:07:02.625
Keegan, in terms of

777
01:07:03.405 --> 01:07:04.305
like, how does

778
01:07:04.685 --> 01:07:08.705
I'm a user. I'm using star 9, right, as my Bitcoin node.

779
01:07:09.510 --> 01:07:11.190
How do you provide to that user

780
01:07:11.990 --> 01:07:16.490
like, what what is your goal with that user in terms of these types of situations? Right?

781
01:07:16.790 --> 01:07:21.984
I'm sure you thought about it. Yeah. For sure. I've actually run polls with our customers as well. So, philosophically,

782
01:07:22.285 --> 01:07:35.010
we want our users to be able to choose. Because at the end of the day, that's what everyone's doing anyway. Nothing's stopping you from forking Bitcoin Core right now, putting in Taproot activation code, and running that as your node. Right?

783
01:07:35.684 --> 01:07:43.224
Obviously, if you're the only one doing that, there's you're you're gonna just fork yourself off the network and and create a coin whose only user is you.

784
01:07:43.605 --> 01:07:44.105
But,

785
01:07:45.230 --> 01:07:50.609
at the same time, like, you know, node operatorship is political power in Bitcoin, at least to a degree.

786
01:07:51.390 --> 01:08:04.790
And we don't want to make that decision for our users if we can avoid it. Right? So, ideally, what we would like to do is to make this configurable. I'd like it to be in core itself to be a flag about whether or not, you know,

787
01:08:05.250 --> 01:08:05.910
if there's

788
01:08:06.290 --> 01:08:07.830
no consensus on a particular

789
01:08:08.755 --> 01:08:15.175
variable, what I would like is for court to release it in a configurable way. There are technical limitations to that as I've been told,

790
01:08:16.670 --> 01:08:27.875
as well as it's not like, there are some people who are genuinely worried that letting users just sort of set a flag when running a piece of software that causes them to get onto the wrong side of a chain split, if you will,

791
01:08:28.574 --> 01:08:52.575
that that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. And I I sort of understand that as well. But I think that at the end at the end of the day, if that's not what if we're not gonna allow ourselves to be there, then Bitcoin doesn't actually make a lot of sense anyway. Yeah. Because that's the only way you can govern a system with no central authority is this messy way. That's so beautifully put. Because yeah. If if if Bitcoin isn't the sort of thing where you can accidentally

792
01:08:53.240 --> 01:08:57.900
soft fork yourself out of consensus and now you don't have any money, then what is Bitcoin?

793
01:08:58.520 --> 01:09:00.440
Is Bitcoin a thing that that,

794
01:09:01.025 --> 01:09:06.645
you know, the Bitcoin core gives us to on a little gold platter and we say thank you, Bitcoin core?

795
01:09:07.824 --> 01:09:10.930
Yeah. So, like, you know, but, obviously, like, you know,

796
01:09:11.650 --> 01:09:53.360
chain splits are bad for every user of Bitcoin. Like, that's that's an you know, that is not a controversial statement. So I I understand that for the size of idiot who chain splits himself because he forks it himself. It's especially bad for that guy. And if you Especially bad for that guy. If you win it solo fork Wait. Wait. Paul. If you and, like, 5 of your buddies soft fork Bitcoin, like, yeah, it really sucks for you. I'm so sorry. But it doesn't hurt any of the rest of the Well, let's it's important to make clear here, like, I understand the provocative like, it's fun to be provocative, but it's important to make clear here that if you fork yourself off the network, you're not interacting with anyone else. There's, like, nothing to you're not you have no real threat of lost money,

797
01:09:54.185 --> 01:09:57.325
as long as you're not, like, also sharing your private key with the world.

798
01:09:58.505 --> 01:09:59.005
Like,

799
01:09:59.945 --> 01:10:18.055
the the the threat of lost money is minimal. You you don't even have anyone to interact with. No one's on your fucking network. Well, you need your 5 months. It's it's lost it's lost income. Right? It's like the only thing that you lose is that in that period where you forked yourself off the network and didn't realize it, if you traded something of value that you had beside like, for for

800
01:10:18.435 --> 01:10:37.005
supposed Bitcoin and, you know, you didn't, like But that requires a second partner. It requires someone else on the network with you. Could could we make this, like, a little more tangible? Because I I really have been trying very hard to understand soft forks a little bit better. Let's say me and my 5 idiot buddies start a Bitcoin fork that activates Taproot

801
01:10:37.465 --> 01:10:40.320
right now. And then we start doing Taproot

802
01:10:41.099 --> 01:10:42.059
transaction, like,

803
01:10:43.980 --> 01:10:54.785
Schnorr. We were using Schnorr all the time and we're sending Bitcoin back and forth with with each other using Schnorr. You know, like, what what actually happened there?

804
01:10:55.230 --> 01:10:58.610
So here's the problem. Right? So, well, let's talk about what Taproot naturally

805
01:10:59.390 --> 01:11:05.135
is. Let's well, it's actually I I don't think that's true, Matt. Like Well, on the real Bitcoin, nothing happened.

806
01:11:05.695 --> 01:11:12.594
That's not true. Because here's the or not not anything happened necessarily. When you when you send money to a Taproot output today,

807
01:11:12.940 --> 01:11:21.360
if you if if you were to basically generate something that had Taproot semantics and you sent money to that today, anybody could steal those funds because

808
01:11:21.725 --> 01:11:31.909
the way that undefined behavior works in the Segwit script versioning system works Oh, thank you. Is that the semantics of transactions are anyone can spend unless the block is later rejected.

809
01:11:32.770 --> 01:11:33.750
So it's

810
01:11:34.369 --> 01:11:54.510
right now, there's this sort of gentleman's agreement that nobody uses Segwit versions that don't have defined behavior. And, you know, because you'll get your coins stolen. And just to make that clear, like, the if the man in the coma wakes up, right, and and they were they went into the coma in, like, 2015, and they wake up right and they look at Bitcoin right now, they're like, well, what are all these

811
01:11:54.985 --> 01:11:56.925
transactions that are totally spendable?

812
01:11:57.305 --> 01:12:00.285
Like all these Segwit transactions look spendable to them. Right?

813
01:12:00.665 --> 01:12:01.165
Correct.

814
01:12:02.469 --> 01:12:04.170
But they can't spend them because

815
01:12:05.429 --> 01:12:13.585
So under the soft fork rules, they wouldn't be able to spend them. But under the previous rules, they would. And so as long as the majority hash power is,

816
01:12:14.205 --> 01:12:16.145
enforcing the soft fork, then,

817
01:12:16.685 --> 01:12:18.465
everything will converge. And

818
01:12:18.830 --> 01:12:26.290
the you'll eventually end up on a state where even if you tried to to spend those funds, you wouldn't be able to. So so the man in the coma would wake up

819
01:12:26.670 --> 01:12:28.050
or sink his node,

820
01:12:28.635 --> 01:12:42.800
Look at the blockchain. See all these un like spendable transactions. Like, oh, well, it looks like I could spend that. So he transmit a transaction saying, hey, I own these this money now. But the the the network, which is now on Soft Fork,

821
01:12:44.345 --> 01:12:47.805
the Segwit soft fork would would would reject his transaction?

822
01:12:48.505 --> 01:12:49.005
Correct.

823
01:12:49.625 --> 01:12:50.125
Okay.

824
01:12:51.200 --> 01:12:54.500
So similarly, with the with with Taproot, with the Schnorr,

825
01:12:54.880 --> 01:12:56.500
if if somebody started,

826
01:12:57.760 --> 01:12:59.620
I'll see now I lost track of it.

827
01:13:00.364 --> 01:13:01.585
Well, I have my

828
01:13:02.045 --> 01:13:06.385
my 5 friends who soft forked Bitcoin and they started snore transactions

829
01:13:07.005 --> 01:13:09.425
with the taproot transactions with each other.

830
01:13:10.780 --> 01:13:14.880
So all their, all their spins would look if they transmitted

831
01:13:15.260 --> 01:13:16.160
those, those

832
01:13:17.165 --> 01:13:19.905
to the Bitcoin network that exists right now,

833
01:13:20.285 --> 01:13:22.625
their money would just look spendable to the Bitcoin

834
01:13:22.925 --> 01:13:27.409
network that exists right now. So anybody could claim those funds. Is that correct? Correct. That's right.

835
01:13:28.830 --> 01:13:35.010
The soft fork rules prevent that except for the specific case where you're able to do a taproot witness. Right?

836
01:13:36.575 --> 01:13:45.395
And so so that's only one component of it, though. The other problem and this is actually the the bigger source of contention, I think. And that is what happens in the chain split scenario.

837
01:13:45.775 --> 01:13:46.275
Right?

838
01:13:47.170 --> 01:13:52.950
So let's say that some people are enforcing some of the rule the enforcing these new rules and some people are not.

839
01:13:53.570 --> 01:13:54.070
And

840
01:13:55.755 --> 01:13:57.054
what that means is that

841
01:13:57.435 --> 01:14:03.935
if a miner mines a block where a non Taproot witness is used to spend a Taproot output,

842
01:14:04.869 --> 01:14:05.369
then,

843
01:14:06.309 --> 01:14:11.530
half of the nodes will accept that because in their minds, anyone can spend this and the other half will not.

844
01:14:12.125 --> 01:14:14.545
And if the majority hash power is actually,

845
01:14:15.085 --> 01:14:17.025
following rules that are not,

846
01:14:18.125 --> 01:14:19.185
Taproot compatible,

847
01:14:20.045 --> 01:14:20.545
then

848
01:14:21.199 --> 01:14:26.020
you like, on upgraded nodes can get themselves into this state where they they think

849
01:14:26.480 --> 01:14:29.860
the the the heaviest chain that they can see is the valid one.

850
01:14:30.594 --> 01:14:31.094
And,

851
01:14:31.475 --> 01:14:34.935
they'll that will be one side of the split and then the ones that,

852
01:14:35.395 --> 01:14:40.260
are validating Taproot rules will reject that heaviest chain and will take the second heaviest chain,

853
01:14:41.219 --> 01:14:48.280
as the alternative. And now all of a sudden there's 2 different ledgers that seem from an economic standpoint to have equal validity, and that's really bad.

854
01:14:49.915 --> 01:14:55.534
Because it doesn't matter how much hash rate you you have. If you are following the wrong rules, you're not Bitcoin.

855
01:14:55.915 --> 01:14:56.415
Correct.

856
01:14:56.795 --> 01:14:57.295
But

857
01:14:58.020 --> 01:14:58.840
maybe not.

858
01:15:01.140 --> 01:15:02.440
What are the correct rules?

859
01:15:03.220 --> 01:15:05.614
Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. If I broadcast

860
01:15:05.994 --> 01:15:07.855
a Tappr transaction today,

861
01:15:08.795 --> 01:15:09.934
Tappr is not activated.

862
01:15:11.755 --> 01:15:21.505
All the nodes, 99% of the nodes are gonna reject that transaction. They're not even gonna take the transaction. Right? No. That's not true. Oh oh, standardness. Yeah. There there might be a standardness issue. It

863
01:15:22.685 --> 01:15:26.065
it but if if a Taproot transaction shows up in a block,

864
01:15:27.804 --> 01:15:28.304
then

865
01:15:29.540 --> 01:15:31.720
it will be spendable by anyone.

866
01:15:32.500 --> 01:15:40.585
Now that said, I think that's a lot of stuff. Though, if I did a transaction right now with Taproot? If you mine it yourself or you submit it directly to a miner,

867
01:15:41.205 --> 01:15:52.130
it it could. Right? No problem. Because there's nothing there's nothing invalid about the transaction, and that's what makes this a soft fork. If it was fundamentally invalid by the consensus rules, Taproot would be a hard fork.

868
01:15:52.510 --> 01:15:53.010
Right.

869
01:15:53.875 --> 01:15:56.695
So what is Anthony saying? There's some nonstandardness

870
01:15:57.074 --> 01:16:01.255
too where presegment nodes won't relay those transactions in the first place.

871
01:16:02.350 --> 01:16:04.590
Yeah. That's that's kinda what I was saying, which is that,

872
01:16:05.230 --> 01:16:08.290
nodes that see this transaction and they don't understand it,

873
01:16:08.670 --> 01:16:10.835
they might just not relay it.

874
01:16:11.955 --> 01:16:18.855
It won't technically be invalid as in if they get a block with that transaction in it, they're not gonna reject the block, but they're not gonna relay the transaction.

875
01:16:19.370 --> 01:16:21.230
So it's not getting shared around the mempool?

876
01:16:21.850 --> 01:16:22.350
Correct.

877
01:16:22.890 --> 01:16:23.390
Interesting.

878
01:16:27.530 --> 01:16:28.990
Well, that's very confusing.

879
01:16:29.515 --> 01:16:40.159
It's enormously like, it's it's it's enormously complicated stuff. I think that, like, even the the experts and I don't I don't even consider myself probably, like, in in the most knowledgeable

880
01:16:40.539 --> 01:16:41.520
on this particular

881
01:16:42.139 --> 01:16:45.599
issue. Right? They're like people like Luke Junior and Matt Corleau,

882
01:16:45.980 --> 01:16:49.985
despite being on vehemently opposite sides of this issue, know far more than I do.

883
01:16:51.725 --> 01:16:52.225
But

884
01:16:52.605 --> 01:16:54.705
it's like even even the experts

885
01:16:55.005 --> 01:17:02.000
are still in some sense speculating. Right? This is a a science and an art that is being defined in real time.

886
01:17:02.700 --> 01:17:07.365
I think that the important thing is the important thing is if you fucking hold your keys,

887
01:17:07.745 --> 01:17:13.525
you sell your chairs, you buy Bitcoin, you stack SaaS, you stay humble, you're holding your own keys, you run your own node,

888
01:17:14.150 --> 01:17:14.650
Like,

889
01:17:15.270 --> 01:17:21.690
you can just send out you can just sit it out. You can just sit it out. You don't have to, you know, worry about it. Like, maybe

890
01:17:22.070 --> 01:17:25.835
maybe you're, like, hot you're, like, your your hot funds are

891
01:17:26.295 --> 01:17:28.635
at risk if something radical happens.

892
01:17:29.495 --> 01:17:31.435
Your your lightning funds are whatever.

893
01:17:31.735 --> 01:17:37.830
You're spending shit. But, like, your your cold storage is just whatever. You just you just let it go and

894
01:17:38.930 --> 01:17:46.185
and people might get angry at each other, but in 2 months, 4 months, 6 months, like, they'll work it out. Right? I I I want to,

895
01:17:46.825 --> 01:17:47.325
I'm

896
01:17:47.945 --> 01:17:55.900
hold Bitcoin's designed to pump forever is what some people say. Yes. And and and Some people do say that. For that to be true,

897
01:17:56.520 --> 01:17:57.500
it has to

898
01:17:58.094 --> 01:17:59.074
totally work.

899
01:17:59.454 --> 01:18:02.915
It has to It shouldn't have to totally work. Nothing totally works, Paul.

900
01:18:03.375 --> 01:18:05.315
It can't well, it can't have a fatal flaw.

901
01:18:05.695 --> 01:18:08.990
Right. You don't have to totally work to not have a fatal flaw.

902
01:18:09.850 --> 01:18:14.430
Here's the thing. Even no no matter what the conclusion of this Taproot thing is, right,

903
01:18:15.285 --> 01:18:18.185
even if it results in a a full on chain split,

904
01:18:18.965 --> 01:18:23.545
that let me make something abundantly clear. That will set Bitcoin back in terms of adoption

905
01:18:25.130 --> 01:18:27.390
enormously, but it will not kill Bitcoin.

906
01:18:28.570 --> 01:18:35.035
Bitcoin, the network will still keep pumping out a block every so often. It probably won't be every 10 minutes because hash power will be split, but,

907
01:18:35.895 --> 01:18:40.150
it will eventually get back to 10 minutes. Hash power is not gonna be split for long.

908
01:18:40.469 --> 01:18:41.050
The the

909
01:18:41.350 --> 01:18:42.489
the the incentives

910
01:18:42.870 --> 01:18:44.170
basically ensure that.

911
01:18:44.710 --> 01:18:52.535
Yeah. And I think that the sound Yeah. Almost wanna see that happen because I wanna see Bitcoin be able to snap back to, like,

912
01:18:52.995 --> 01:18:57.430
like, I yeah. I don't actually wanna see it happen. But, like, I want I want to have governance

913
01:18:57.890 --> 01:19:02.470
further fleshed out. Like, governance is not something that Bitcoin necessarily solves.

914
01:19:03.010 --> 01:19:03.590
You know?

915
01:19:03.985 --> 01:19:07.445
Like, everything that's inside of Bitcoin's purview,

916
01:19:08.065 --> 01:19:12.725
Bitcoin solves very well as far as my investigation of it so far.

917
01:19:13.180 --> 01:19:15.440
But Bitcoin is chaos insured.

918
01:19:15.900 --> 01:19:16.960
Like, no one

919
01:19:17.820 --> 01:19:20.935
every other every other state of humanity

920
01:19:21.315 --> 01:19:23.495
has resulted in chaos being

921
01:19:24.035 --> 01:19:25.735
controlled by a few people,

922
01:19:26.195 --> 01:19:30.870
resulting in lack of chaos, and Bitcoin just guarantees that chaos will exist forever.

923
01:19:31.489 --> 01:19:35.670
Yeah. Spend 3 seconds in the Taproot activation discussions, and you'll see that.

924
01:19:36.095 --> 01:19:50.969
No one can take control. Yelling at each other. Well, I I I shouldn't say they're yelling at each other. They're just they're just strongly disagreeing with each other. I don't want anybody to be in charge. I want to to better understand why all the incentives work to perpetuate Bitcoin.

925
01:19:52.305 --> 01:19:55.605
And part of those incentives are how do we do governance.

926
01:19:55.905 --> 01:20:03.750
I don't want anybody in charge that would suck. And I would leave it. I'm I'm gonna go ahead and say that here's here's the way that I predict things are gonna go.

927
01:20:04.290 --> 01:20:17.705
Right? Now either the miners are gonna activate it no problem when a release comes out, and that that that's not gonna be a a thing that doesn't happen. Right? Like, we'll eventually get to a set of parameters we can agree on that doesn't involve a forceful UASF,

928
01:20:18.980 --> 01:20:30.425
to start because that seems like the way that core is going to go. And if miners activate, we're gonna get Taproot. No problem. So that's a happy case. No one's really, like, hyper concerned about that because that's the somewhat obvious

929
01:20:30.885 --> 01:20:46.225
way that this plays out, in the most probable case. But we're also need to we're talking about the edge cases here. And the way that I see this going is that if the the miners don't activate taproot for whatever reason, right, you will eventually see a UASF movement. The UASF

930
01:20:46.525 --> 01:20:48.225
movement will eventually happen.

931
01:20:48.925 --> 01:20:50.945
Too many I have not seen a single person,

932
01:20:51.725 --> 01:21:00.550
argue against having Taproot at all. The only disagreement has been on around how we get it there. And, you know, the the intolerant minority

933
01:21:01.075 --> 01:21:03.255
is going to be the the UASFers,

934
01:21:03.715 --> 01:21:06.535
and they like, whether it's, you know, this year

935
01:21:07.075 --> 01:21:14.600
or, you know, several years from now, it's like it's go it's going to happen. The UASF is eventually going to to sort of boil over.

936
01:21:15.140 --> 01:21:15.640
So

937
01:21:16.260 --> 01:21:20.199
Like, if we if I don't see it going any other way. If Bitcoin is good,

938
01:21:20.585 --> 01:21:24.605
right, and a bad US UASF shows up,

939
01:21:25.065 --> 01:21:31.720
Bitcoin should like, let's say a user activated soft fork shows up that tries to inflate the supply of Bitcoin.

940
01:21:32.340 --> 01:21:37.555
Right? Oh, that wouldn't be a soft fork. That'd be a hard fork. User activated hard fork. So you know what? You know what I mean? Like,

941
01:21:38.595 --> 01:21:39.895
Bitcoin should theoretically

942
01:21:40.195 --> 01:21:43.815
have the right incentives in place to to fend off

943
01:21:44.195 --> 01:21:48.570
a a very bad UASF. Right? Right. If no one runs the rules,

944
01:21:49.350 --> 01:21:50.250
like, it won't,

945
01:21:51.430 --> 01:21:55.290
result in any changes. Right? Even if the code got written.

946
01:21:59.255 --> 01:22:03.835
So, like, if if you inflate the supply like like, Bitcoin social contract is 21,000,000.

947
01:22:04.135 --> 01:22:06.470
Alright? Like, no one's gonna run those rules.

948
01:22:07.170 --> 01:22:11.830
The reason that the Taproot rules have a near certainty of going through is that they're noninvasive.

949
01:22:12.370 --> 01:22:12.870
Right?

950
01:22:13.415 --> 01:22:19.034
The the Taproot outputs, the way that they work is that, look, if you don't wanna use Taproot, you don't have to use Taproot.

951
01:22:19.895 --> 01:22:26.080
If you don't wanna even want if you don't even wanna validate the Taproot rules, which I don't recommend, but, like, you actually can

952
01:22:26.460 --> 01:22:28.720
leave your node pointed at o.21.0,

953
01:22:29.420 --> 01:22:34.014
and it will stay in consensus with the network as long as the majority hash power

954
01:22:34.315 --> 01:22:35.675
is not trying to,

955
01:22:36.155 --> 01:22:39.534
push through transactions that are invalid under the Taproot rules.

956
01:22:41.660 --> 01:22:42.320
But, otherwise,

957
01:22:42.780 --> 01:22:46.720
like, you know, you don't have to interact with the the upgrade at all. It's completely,

958
01:22:47.100 --> 01:22:48.240
opt in, noninvasive.

959
01:22:48.860 --> 01:22:49.420
And the

960
01:22:55.325 --> 01:22:56.465
presence of disagreement.

961
01:22:57.220 --> 01:23:02.920
The key aspect is is that someone can just pretend that Tapper doesn't exist. They can continue using Bitcoin.

962
01:23:03.540 --> 01:23:04.040
Right.

963
01:23:04.495 --> 01:23:17.170
Right? That's the that's the main difference between And so as a as a result, like, there's not really a disincentive to being, like, hey, okay. You guys really want this upgrade. It doesn't affect me in any way, shape, or form. Like

964
01:23:17.470 --> 01:23:18.370
okay. Fine.

965
01:23:18.750 --> 01:23:26.575
Add it. Right? There's there's not a strong disincentive to getting it activated. And so the asymmetry of the argument is going to eventually converge on getting it activated.

966
01:23:27.195 --> 01:23:29.615
That's not true for something that inflates the supply.

967
01:23:30.155 --> 01:23:31.535
To be clear here, Freaks,

968
01:23:32.140 --> 01:23:39.840
the reason this discussion is being had is because if Bitcoin is easy to change, if you're able to just have, like, an auto update to Bitcoin,

969
01:23:42.335 --> 01:23:48.515
that itself is a vulnerability. We can have an auto update that just adds vaccine passports or some shit.

970
01:23:49.239 --> 01:23:55.980
And and 102 says a a user activated soft work where, it it sends you can only send Bitcoin to a burn address.

971
01:23:56.375 --> 01:23:59.195
Right. Exactly. Or or, like, you can only send Bitcoin

972
01:23:59.574 --> 01:24:07.350
to the feds, and then the feds will will send it to where it needs to go. Right? You can just you can easily see situations where

973
01:24:07.730 --> 01:24:12.310
if you have an auto update, it becomes a vulnerability. So everything we talk about here is

974
01:24:13.170 --> 01:24:13.670
about

975
01:24:14.455 --> 01:24:15.675
being able to upgrade

976
01:24:16.055 --> 01:24:18.155
when we need to upgrade, in this case,

977
01:24:19.335 --> 01:24:21.595
or when we would like to upgrade at least,

978
01:24:22.190 --> 01:24:22.690
without

979
01:24:23.150 --> 01:24:27.570
the risk of an upgrade being the vulnerability itself. Right?

980
01:24:30.905 --> 01:24:34.125
And to go back a little bit, Keegan,

981
01:24:36.400 --> 01:24:40.100
where do you see start 9, like, in this world? Like, how does this

982
01:24:41.040 --> 01:24:42.980
right? Like, this is so confusing,

983
01:24:43.435 --> 01:24:48.335
and, like, you have a bunch of users. How do they deal with this, and how do you deal with that with them?

984
01:24:48.875 --> 01:24:55.150
So what I what I want and this is a very tricky discussion because there's, like, there's a certain level of responsibility

985
01:24:55.610 --> 01:25:00.755
we, as the publishers of these things, have to maintain. But what I would like is that should a UASF

986
01:25:01.055 --> 01:25:09.949
client materialize? So so first of all, if if Bitcoin Core does a release that includes Taproot activation code, we're just gonna put that as a package upgrade for the the Bitcoin,

987
01:25:10.650 --> 01:25:12.989
package that we already have on the embassy.

988
01:25:14.090 --> 01:25:14.590
If

989
01:25:15.315 --> 01:25:17.255
a UASF client materializes

990
01:25:17.635 --> 01:25:19.495
that gets a decent amount of support,

991
01:25:20.355 --> 01:25:26.510
we would like to be able to put that on there too. And, it will probably come with a 1,000 warning labels because

992
01:25:27.369 --> 01:25:46.320
what by running that software, you're essentially saying, like, these are the consensus rules I'm choosing to abide by. We'll probably have, like, a very long detailed blog post about what running that means or something like that. But, ultimately, I do not want to bar a UASF client from our package registry. But what about the opposite?

993
01:25:47.925 --> 01:25:51.945
Like, what what is the opposite? The opposite is someone doesn't wanna run it.

994
01:25:52.405 --> 01:26:00.440
They don't have to upgrade it. Right? They just don't update. Right? Let me make something clear about the embassy in general. There are no forced upgrades in the embassy. Right?

995
01:26:01.620 --> 01:26:22.030
The like, it it's a stance that we've taken since the very beginning. It's like if you install a piece of software, that software will not auto update. It might it might inform you that an update exists, right, depending on whether you've opted into the to knowing that or not. But it will not force you to update. And if you if you use a piece of software today, will you it will work the same way tomorrow.

996
01:26:22.415 --> 01:26:33.960
It may not be supported necessarily, but it won't be like it won't we won't just break your software ever. So if a UASF client comes out and you don't wanna run it, don't upgrade, period. End of story.

997
01:26:34.900 --> 01:26:36.440
And do you agree that

998
01:26:37.380 --> 01:26:47.895
it's like me personally, like, I'm not concerned about this risk, period at all. And and the reason the main reason for me is because there's so many competitors. Do you agree that the fact

999
01:26:48.355 --> 01:26:49.415
that there's, like,

1000
01:26:49.800 --> 01:26:54.860
so many options for people to be running their nodes on on on least a Raspberry Pi,

1001
01:26:55.800 --> 01:26:56.620
that it's,

1002
01:26:57.975 --> 01:27:02.074
it it kinda keeps you all in check that, like, you're not gonna get, like, power hungry?

1003
01:27:02.375 --> 01:27:07.900
Yeah. I think I think competition in general keeps a lot of like like, it keeps organizations honest.

1004
01:27:08.840 --> 01:27:10.940
But even if we didn't have competition,

1005
01:27:11.639 --> 01:27:15.505
it's a it's a fundamental ethos thing for us that we do not want

1006
01:27:16.765 --> 01:27:29.400
people to like, we we do not wanna force upgrades on users. It's like it's like a it's a hard stop in any design discussion that happens at start 9. It's that if it takes away user sovereignty over the ability to run their own software,

1007
01:27:29.860 --> 01:27:30.920
then it's a nonstarter.

1008
01:27:31.525 --> 01:27:39.620
We will make all sorts of decisions about whether what things we choose to support indefinitely and what things we choose not to support and, like, dedicate our own resources to.

1009
01:27:40.100 --> 01:27:42.100
But, we will never force

1010
01:27:42.580 --> 01:27:50.715
like, for for for as long as I hold an officer position at this company, like, we're not gonna force upgrade on users. I love it. Right? Really like that that

1011
01:27:51.175 --> 01:27:53.035
way of thinking about it. And and

1012
01:27:53.415 --> 01:27:53.655
I,

1013
01:27:54.375 --> 01:27:58.909
not to plug my own shit, but, like, a while back, I did a a a podcast episode about,

1014
01:27:59.530 --> 01:28:03.469
it's called Better Won't Be Easy, and it's about UX. Basically, me being,

1015
01:28:04.764 --> 01:28:05.804
triggered by,

1016
01:28:06.844 --> 01:28:10.224
a certain podcaster who always complains about Bitcoin UX.

1017
01:28:10.605 --> 01:28:13.890
And and the, the the kind of the thing, Oh, somebody.

1018
01:28:14.670 --> 01:28:17.650
And so the the the idea is that,

1019
01:28:18.670 --> 01:28:20.290
like, what would the easiest

1020
01:28:21.434 --> 01:28:23.215
to run Bitcoin node be?

1021
01:28:23.675 --> 01:28:27.295
Like, you click a button, and now you have a Bitcoin node. Like, congratulations.

1022
01:28:27.755 --> 01:28:28.414
You know?

1023
01:28:29.090 --> 01:28:36.150
That would be the best easiest to use Bitcoin note. You click one button and and now you have a Bitcoin note. But,

1024
01:28:36.485 --> 01:28:41.225
well, what were all the decisions that were made? Like, where is that hosted?

1025
01:28:41.605 --> 01:28:42.425
Who is that?

1026
01:28:43.045 --> 01:28:44.985
Which version of Bitcoin Core,

1027
01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:52.535
you know, is it running, and will it change underneath your feet? You know, if you if if it was so easy that all you had to do

1028
01:28:53.175 --> 01:28:56.955
was press a button, you wouldn't be making the decisions that are relevant

1029
01:28:57.815 --> 01:29:06.610
to running an economic Bitcoin node. I it's kinda similar reasons why people don't really have much care for, like, a nodes running in AWS.

1030
01:29:08.495 --> 01:29:11.315
Or because you you've kinda lost a little bit of sovereignty.

1031
01:29:12.015 --> 01:29:17.715
But you if you lost all the sovereignty, you you wouldn't be any there wouldn't be any point to it. And and

1032
01:29:18.020 --> 01:29:20.360
if Bitcoin nodes were so easy to run

1033
01:29:20.739 --> 01:29:28.125
that you could do it with a button, then anything that they have to do with, like, these UA these these soft forks and

1034
01:29:28.505 --> 01:29:30.844
stuff, well, somebody could just spin up, like, 5,000,000

1035
01:29:31.145 --> 01:29:36.840
nodes, you know, if they had the money to do it. And and that would matter to the network

1036
01:29:37.460 --> 01:29:50.475
if if if if those nodes mattered to the network. But it's obvious that they don't matter to the network, at least as far as I'm under I know because nobody's done that to try to, like, change Bitcoin so that they get, you know,

1037
01:29:50.840 --> 01:29:59.800
like money So so yeah. Let me let me talk a a second about how we approach this in in other ways, at least on the embassy. Is that, like so the big,

1038
01:30:00.495 --> 01:30:04.675
your Bitcoin note as it stands has tons and tons of configuration options,

1039
01:30:05.055 --> 01:30:05.555
like,

1040
01:30:06.095 --> 01:30:08.915
all all sorts of stuff that you could change about it.

1041
01:30:09.280 --> 01:30:10.660
A lot of it can be,

1042
01:30:11.120 --> 01:30:14.500
is is it spans the the gamut from trivial to,

1043
01:30:15.360 --> 01:30:16.820
important, but still technical.

1044
01:30:18.475 --> 01:30:19.855
The what we want

1045
01:30:20.235 --> 01:30:30.740
our our our goal with the MSCN general is to get the software to a point where the this the only decisions you have to make are the ones that sort of have a consequence to you and that we take care of the rest.

1046
01:30:31.200 --> 01:30:32.900
So we have a very,

1047
01:30:33.600 --> 01:30:37.405
sophisticated configuration system that takes the the bitcoin.confile

1048
01:30:38.105 --> 01:30:42.045
that is I always have to look up the syntax for every time I wanna change something.

1049
01:30:42.425 --> 01:30:48.699
And we've turned it into a GUI system where you can just click through all the options and and it will guide you towards,

1050
01:30:50.039 --> 01:31:01.325
structurally correct answers, but it won't make any decisions for you on what values you put in there. So, obviously, you won't be able to put a word where there's a number where a number belongs or vice versa and then cause your node to to not start up.

1051
01:31:01.930 --> 01:31:09.310
What we would like and this is kind of why I advocate at least to core to be able to have make this a flag or a config option in the,

1052
01:31:10.575 --> 01:31:11.075
the

1053
01:31:11.695 --> 01:31:12.595
in the bitcoin.com

1054
01:31:12.975 --> 01:31:21.780
file is that that way a user could just say, you know, hey. I wanna run the UASF rules or, no. I don't want you to run the UASF rules. Start the thing and then be done with it. Right?

1055
01:31:23.360 --> 01:31:27.780
Obviously, that has a lot of consequences for the network at large, but it's no different than

1056
01:31:28.475 --> 01:31:34.495
what it does is it reduces it you from having to know how to fork and write code to being able to do it from your home.

1057
01:31:36.369 --> 01:31:44.150
So, like, we've done a tremendous amount of work to try to bring a lot of that sovereignty and eliminate a lot of the extraneous knowledge or decision making,

1058
01:31:45.105 --> 01:31:52.645
from the product. And I don't know how the other node products compare in that particular way, but I know it's something that we've poured a lot of effort into.

1059
01:31:54.630 --> 01:31:57.690
Well, I'm looking forward to you guys all fighting over this personally.

1060
01:31:59.430 --> 01:32:02.330
Yeah. Me too. We will cover it on Rapital recap.

1061
01:32:03.934 --> 01:32:10.835
I look forward to covering it. I I I think that's what that's what makes Bitcoin Bitcoin. I think it's really cool that we have all these different

1062
01:32:11.215 --> 01:32:11.715
competitors

1063
01:32:14.510 --> 01:32:16.210
offering user friendly solutions.

1064
01:32:16.910 --> 01:32:17.410
And

1065
01:32:17.870 --> 01:32:19.489
and I think they they

1066
01:32:19.955 --> 01:32:23.575
like, if if you wanted to if you a 100% believed in Taproot,

1067
01:32:24.275 --> 01:32:26.295
I would completely support your decision

1068
01:32:26.995 --> 01:32:27.735
to provide,

1069
01:32:28.750 --> 01:32:38.130
like, basically, shove that update down people's throats. I mean, I'd I'd prefer if you didn't auto update, but I'd I'd be completely fine with you offering the update without,

1070
01:32:40.255 --> 01:32:45.475
or, like, with change log notes that are, like, this upgrades Bitcoin and does it better,

1071
01:32:45.860 --> 01:32:49.320
You know? And I I assume other others would be, like

1072
01:32:50.020 --> 01:32:53.080
you know, if it was actually contentious, they would be, like,

1073
01:32:53.675 --> 01:33:26.300
this update is bad for Bitcoin, and that's why we're not doing it. Then they would do the opposite, and that's kind of cool. Right? Yeah. The the the that's the other thing is that in insofar as we do make choices that influence or or sort of constrain the number of choices users have, we will usually try to explain like, we we we try very hard to have full transparency on all the changes that go into any sort of package upgrade. But that's that's an ever growing art form. Right? Because, like, trying to distill all the pieces of code that change in order in into sentences that a user can understand,

1074
01:33:27.265 --> 01:33:31.845
is more art than science. But that that transparency is super important because

1075
01:33:32.225 --> 01:33:33.605
even if you do have the choice

1076
01:33:34.060 --> 01:33:40.239
to upgrade or not, if you don't know what you're getting or if we tell you one thing and you get another, then you're kind of back at square 1. So,

1077
01:33:40.780 --> 01:33:54.940
that's something that's important to us. I have no way to prove that we do that, right, other than, like, we we make we all the the packages are open source code. And if you kinda watch us like a hawk, you can you can see that we're we're doing that. But,

1078
01:33:56.440 --> 01:34:02.405
other than that, it's something that we just we try to do better every day. Gonna start x-raying your own hardware and

1079
01:34:03.185 --> 01:34:05.605
real get real get real cynical.

1080
01:34:06.065 --> 01:34:07.205
About that, like,

1081
01:34:07.660 --> 01:34:13.040
these open source apps, like, you kinda have this idea. You don't call them apps. I think you call them services.

1082
01:34:14.220 --> 01:34:16.240
I think Umbrel calls them apps.

1083
01:34:16.645 --> 01:34:17.145
Like,

1084
01:34:17.925 --> 01:34:27.470
I mean, as far as I mean, on Umbrel, like, I haven't looked deeply in the documentation, but, like, the it's these are basically Docker containers that expect some some they expect

1085
01:34:27.850 --> 01:34:32.990
probably Bitcoin Core to exist, a lot of them. I guess, obviously, Bitwarden doesn't.

1086
01:34:34.010 --> 01:34:34.750
But, like,

1087
01:34:35.315 --> 01:34:46.409
is is there some possibility there for, like, some some standardization or some in some sense, like, you guys could relinquish control over this this thing? Like, is it because it does seem like there's a convergence

1088
01:34:47.030 --> 01:34:55.905
on this idea that I wanna have Raspberry Pis at my home that are running useful services for me, that are developed by other people. And

1089
01:34:56.765 --> 01:35:01.300
while I would I I like that you guys are a company that are trying to make this easy,

1090
01:35:02.480 --> 01:35:04.500
most of the value that you're providing

1091
01:35:04.880 --> 01:35:05.619
is not,

1092
01:35:07.324 --> 01:35:13.344
the the actual software that I'm running is not stuff that you all developed from scratch. You know, you're you're developing

1093
01:35:14.100 --> 01:35:16.760
a a easy to use, easy to maintain,

1094
01:35:18.260 --> 01:35:21.160
hopefully easy to back up with buddy backup system,

1095
01:35:21.615 --> 01:35:22.675
trademark 6102.

1096
01:35:24.575 --> 01:35:26.435
He doesn't believe in trademarks, so

1097
01:35:26.975 --> 01:35:29.140
good luck with that. Yeah. So, like,

1098
01:35:29.700 --> 01:35:36.120
we don't actually have almost any control much to the chagrin of our customer support effort, actually.

1099
01:35:37.460 --> 01:35:37.960
But

1100
01:35:38.304 --> 01:35:38.745
the

1101
01:35:39.185 --> 01:35:47.525
like, yeah, there are certain points where we have influence. Right? Obviously, when you kinda go and download these packages from the, the the marketplace,

1102
01:35:48.120 --> 01:35:57.420
we get to decide what's listed on the marketplace. And, you know, we will do some curation of that. We will eliminate certain choices because we think that they present harm to the users.

1103
01:35:58.795 --> 01:36:04.235
But we actually already have engineered into the operating system a way to switch the,

1104
01:36:04.930 --> 01:36:06.710
the source of package downloads.

1105
01:36:07.410 --> 01:36:09.590
We don't yet expose that in the GUI,

1106
01:36:10.450 --> 01:36:12.150
but that will eventually come.

1107
01:36:12.925 --> 01:36:17.905
Just like on like on Linux, you can add another Like an apps cache. Yeah. Exactly.

1108
01:36:19.324 --> 01:36:20.065
And so

1109
01:36:20.445 --> 01:36:21.645
yeah. We we have

1110
01:36:22.270 --> 01:36:25.250
we're aware of the points of trust that Start9, the company,

1111
01:36:26.030 --> 01:36:51.805
has. And we we try to eliminate them over time. It's a it is a it's a growing process. You should have to own them, bro. Yeah. Just own them. Like, what what is like, people's so so I have this service final message dot I out, which I never show. I like, if you wanna use it, fucking use it. I, like, I don't care. And, like, I came to the same fucking conclusion. It was, like, the main negative of the idea of offering a

1112
01:36:53.540 --> 01:36:54.040
a

1113
01:36:55.220 --> 01:36:56.200
a a a paid

1114
01:36:56.580 --> 01:37:01.160
dead man switch is that you have to trust me to send the fucking dead man switch.

1115
01:37:01.705 --> 01:37:05.645
Yep. And and I could I could I could do the metallic

1116
01:37:06.025 --> 01:37:06.925
mental masturbation

1117
01:37:07.545 --> 01:37:10.205
all over again, like, over and over and over again,

1118
01:37:10.665 --> 01:37:11.165
but,

1119
01:37:12.010 --> 01:37:19.630
like, it's solved by just having another service offer the same thing. Right? And, like, if you just have competition if you have competition,

1120
01:37:20.645 --> 01:37:33.960
like, that trust is minimized and, like, that's what it is. You don't have to, like, create, like, some magical trustless system. You just have to make a system that is that is effective, and you have competition, and the competition provides the the needed

1121
01:37:34.980 --> 01:37:35.960
customized. Right?

1122
01:37:37.155 --> 01:38:01.304
Yeah. Matt, that that that's completely right. But at the same time, that doesn't alleviate us of the responsibility of trying to make things more trust minimized over time. Right. Because I think that's what we're all doing here. And number 2 is we can't control whether or not we have competitors. In fact, we would like to be so good that people don't go for the competitors. You're gonna have competitors. Right? Like, yeah. Obviously, competition is good for the consumer, but, like, we're trying to win.

1123
01:38:02.005 --> 01:38:02.505
So,

1124
01:38:03.120 --> 01:38:07.540
like and and so insofar as that's the case, we're not gonna be trying to, like, improve

1125
01:38:08.000 --> 01:38:12.365
like, we don't wanna, like, shit on our competitors. But We're, like, we're we're focused on delivering the best

1126
01:38:21.680 --> 01:38:37.135
you're right. There is no panacea where it's, like, completely trustless, but it's infinitely easy. Like, you're right that that doesn't Well, that's like shit corners. We can't make it better. The shit corners try and pretend, like, there's a panacea somewhere. Right? But, really, at the end of the day, you kinda just need some competition.

1127
01:38:38.050 --> 01:38:39.750
You just need some redundant services.

1128
01:38:40.130 --> 01:38:42.450
And you've gotta have, like yeah. You gotta have,

1129
01:38:43.170 --> 01:38:47.585
trust for anything that you don't understand, or that you don't have the time to to understand.

1130
01:38:48.525 --> 01:38:54.864
And you you have to have heuristics for how who and how and when you're gonna you're gonna trust. And so,

1131
01:38:55.190 --> 01:38:59.449
you know, almost any company is is offering some sort of trust as a service.

1132
01:39:00.309 --> 01:39:01.610
But, like like,

1133
01:39:02.425 --> 01:39:03.805
aside from, like, the the

1134
01:39:04.265 --> 01:39:09.165
how can people trust Start9? Like, it's it's for me, a lot of it's like

1135
01:39:11.200 --> 01:39:16.980
like, I have lived you know, I I have a history as, like, a, like, a technology journalist.

1136
01:39:17.825 --> 01:39:20.385
And now I'm a software developer, and I'm trying to, like,

1137
01:39:21.345 --> 01:39:23.045
absolve my sense. But,

1138
01:39:24.545 --> 01:39:25.285
but, like,

1139
01:39:25.825 --> 01:39:26.325
like,

1140
01:39:27.560 --> 01:39:28.060
the

1141
01:39:29.720 --> 01:39:36.140
all of almost all the products in my life are preside provided to me by companies that want to have a monopoly

1142
01:39:36.745 --> 01:39:39.005
and want to and and and somehow,

1143
01:39:40.505 --> 01:39:46.525
it it I don't think it has to go hand in hand, but somehow it does go hand in hand where they kinda wanna rule me. You know?

1144
01:39:46.889 --> 01:39:47.389
Like

1145
01:39:47.690 --> 01:39:52.270
like like they they they want to control how I use their product

1146
01:39:52.730 --> 01:40:01.555
either as as because they think it'll make me happier or maybe because they think you'll This isn't an authorized application, Paul. Have you considered right clicking open?

1147
01:40:04.690 --> 01:40:08.150
Yeah. Exactly. And it's so I don't know. It's just so frustrating.

1148
01:40:09.175 --> 01:40:14.954
So, like, I I see something like start 9. And the fact that you guys are trying to make money on this,

1149
01:40:15.655 --> 01:40:26.885
half of me is, like, I'm so glad because this is exactly the thing that I want in my home. I want the thing that runs my Bitcoin node that, that has easy to use backups

1150
01:40:27.345 --> 01:40:30.645
and has bit warden on there. And maybe like, you know,

1151
01:40:31.810 --> 01:40:39.349
a VPN or, or, or pie hole or all sorts of there's so many possibilities for self hosted services. And it's good that a good company

1152
01:40:39.650 --> 01:40:41.429
is trying to make that right.

1153
01:40:42.035 --> 01:40:44.615
But at the same time, I see a company that's trying to make money

1154
01:40:45.155 --> 01:40:48.375
selling things that are kind of in some sense, open source.

1155
01:40:48.810 --> 01:41:10.489
And I think, okay. Well, what are they gonna try to lock down? What are they gonna try to make hard to use? Like, what are they gonna how are they gonna fuck me? That's what I'm not not even in, like I don't think you're gonna try to steal my UTXO's. He's a 100% going to. I think you're trying like, when I see that you're a business, I think you're going to you're trying to ruin my life in some subtle,

1156
01:41:11.030 --> 01:41:11.530
prolonged

1157
01:41:11.989 --> 01:41:13.370
apple style way.

1158
01:41:13.989 --> 01:41:21.485
Right. I mean like, fall in love with your product. It's a long con. In 20 years, you're gonna fuck you with the Apple Watch. Yeah. It'll be like it'll be like Imessage.

1159
01:41:21.790 --> 01:41:25.970
It'll be like Imessage where, like, it starts out like, oh, wow. We got read receipts

1160
01:41:26.510 --> 01:41:38.310
and, like, emoji reactions and, like, we're having a wonderful time and we're growing closer as a family. And now it's like, oh, Imessage means that if one person has Android, they're not

1161
01:41:38.870 --> 01:41:40.490
not they're not your friend anymore.

1162
01:41:40.870 --> 01:41:47.450
You know? That kinda that kinda fuck me. Yeah. The store the walled garden thing is is not necessarily something

1163
01:41:48.415 --> 01:41:49.155
that we

1164
01:41:49.775 --> 01:41:52.595
want to do. Right? Like, my my personal philosophy

1165
01:41:53.135 --> 01:41:54.275
and and, you know,

1166
01:41:54.575 --> 01:41:57.020
this is me speaking as myself and not

1167
01:42:05.385 --> 01:42:16.350
to compete and they're rewarded for competing well, but that the protocols are open and permissionless so that if a customer is dissatisfied with someone's service, that they can easily take it to a competitor. Right?

1168
01:42:17.370 --> 01:42:32.305
And and to to Matt's point, right, the existence of competitors is important there, and the the protocol openness is important. Right? I wouldn't be so angry at the way that their our bank situation was if I could very easily

1169
01:42:32.880 --> 01:42:38.820
just like if if bank if banks were easily being able to be started, like, from 0,

1170
01:42:39.520 --> 01:42:45.355
then we wouldn't have nearly the same, like, crony corruption that we do in the United States today. Right?

1171
01:42:45.895 --> 01:42:50.395
That that barrier to entry and that's intrinsically related to the protocol openness.

1172
01:42:51.820 --> 01:42:59.360
So, yeah. Like, you're you're right to say that there are these sort of, like, odd incentives, but the the the upside is that the incentives

1173
01:42:59.855 --> 01:43:00.675
to compete

1174
01:43:01.054 --> 01:43:02.594
also are what brings,

1175
01:43:03.215 --> 01:43:21.665
investment into the space that actually improve the the products and services that we have. And so there is this fundamental trade off between the totally open source. In fact, it's probably even a good thing that, you know, these like, these nodes need to be able to be run by a person who's just a hobbyist in their basement building it from scratch from themselves. Right?

1176
01:43:24.720 --> 01:43:29.540
So, like, it's good that that exists. It needs to continue to exist because it keeps the rest of us honest.

1177
01:43:30.080 --> 01:43:35.535
But at the same time, right, like, there is there is real value to be created

1178
01:43:36.075 --> 01:43:36.575
by,

1179
01:43:37.435 --> 01:43:40.015
making these these things streamline and and investing

1180
01:43:40.430 --> 01:43:48.945
individuals' time who need to eat and sleep and, you know or, like, they need they need food and shelter and things like that for them to take their time and trade it,

1181
01:43:49.585 --> 01:43:53.364
to be able to invest in these spaces. So, like, it's it's a tough question.

1182
01:43:53.824 --> 01:43:57.310
Yeah. I think streamline is a really good word for it because, like like, 95%

1183
01:43:58.330 --> 01:44:00.030
or or, I don't know, 78%

1184
01:44:00.570 --> 01:44:03.230
of what Apple does is make my life more streamlined.

1185
01:44:03.885 --> 01:44:05.744
And then the other Fuck you.

1186
01:44:06.205 --> 01:44:06.945
Other 22%

1187
01:44:07.405 --> 01:44:08.864
is, like, making my life

1188
01:44:09.645 --> 01:44:10.145
harder

1189
01:44:11.560 --> 01:44:15.260
exactly because they're trying to protect their, like, their moat. You know?

1190
01:44:15.880 --> 01:44:21.635
Yeah. So, like like, they they they have, like, the incentive to do both things. They wanna delight me, but they also

1191
01:44:22.015 --> 01:44:27.875
they don't want me to leave. Like so, like, you guys have, like, like, cups. Right? You guys have your own,

1192
01:44:29.020 --> 01:44:33.280
messaging service. And it always kinda bugs me because, like, it seems like peer to peer messaging

1193
01:44:33.900 --> 01:44:39.585
should be more of a thing. Like, I remember at work, like, the Internet would go out. Back when we had offices,

1194
01:44:40.045 --> 01:44:44.530
Internet would go out and Slack would be down. And so, like, you couldn't, like,

1195
01:44:45.090 --> 01:44:48.789
chat with people who are, like, literally, like, a table away from you.

1196
01:44:49.090 --> 01:44:55.245
You know? And it's so so dumb that we don't have, you know, like, more, like, direct

1197
01:44:55.705 --> 01:45:05.010
message. Anyways, so, like, you guys have cups, but, like, a lot of people are real into, like, like, sphinx right now. Like, like, how do how do those When sphinx? When

1198
01:45:05.550 --> 01:45:06.050
sphinx?

1199
01:45:07.605 --> 01:45:11.465
2 weeks? I public I published it to our beta channel yesterday.

1200
01:45:12.965 --> 01:45:14.905
Oh, that's dumb. So it's imminent.

1201
01:45:15.530 --> 01:45:22.829
Good answer. I am not going to reveal how you get to the beta channel on this cast because I I will get in trouble with a handful of people.

1202
01:45:23.210 --> 01:45:23.685
But

1203
01:45:24.165 --> 01:45:26.105
the point is is that the work has been done,

1204
01:45:26.805 --> 01:45:32.825
and it's, you know, it's it's it's coming imminently. Who in the live chat is gonna tell us how to get to the beta channel?

1205
01:45:33.449 --> 01:45:33.949
Yeah.

1206
01:45:35.290 --> 01:45:36.670
I don't think anyone can.

1207
01:45:37.850 --> 01:45:59.284
Well, actually, that's not true. They they absolutely can. If you if you go and run look. Look. Look. The operating system code, you can figure it out. Alright. I appreciate that. Puzzle. But but here's the thing. If you if you're if you are, like, if you are skilled enough to be able to figure it out, I'm not worried about, you doing it because it it's it's just fine. We do that because, like, things that we don't have the customer support,

1208
01:45:59.685 --> 01:46:06.025
like, ability to do or things aren't refined enough that they're gonna generate a bunch of support load, we don't necessarily wanna publish it to,

1209
01:46:07.170 --> 01:46:15.510
you know, a whole bunch of people who are gonna immediately ask us a ton of questions. But if you are skilled enough to figure out how to point yourself at the beta channel, you're skilled enough to answer your own questions.

1210
01:46:15.875 --> 01:46:20.135
So Sphinx chat is pretty cool. Sphinx chat is a lightning based,

1211
01:46:21.955 --> 01:46:23.575
encrypted messaging services

1212
01:46:24.210 --> 01:46:25.670
that allows you to send,

1213
01:46:26.130 --> 01:46:31.670
lightning payments. It every message is a lightning payment. So it's it's lightning payment native,

1214
01:46:32.445 --> 01:46:39.400
and we have tribes for both Scylla Dispatch and Tales from the Crypt. So if you go to tribes dot sphinx.chat,

1215
01:46:39.940 --> 01:46:42.599
you can find those. If you go to cidl dispatch.com,

1216
01:46:42.900 --> 01:46:50.555
you can also find the join code for our our specific tribe. Just to be clear, like, that's such a stupid idea

1217
01:46:51.015 --> 01:46:52.315
in the long run.

1218
01:46:52.775 --> 01:46:53.275
Like,

1219
01:46:54.135 --> 01:47:01.510
you should use lightning for discover if you know, like, somebody's public key, you can use lightning to, like, find where they are.

1220
01:47:01.810 --> 01:47:09.625
But once you know where they are and, like, have exchanged some messages with them, like, encrypted it or whatever Yeah. I mean, I'm You should just

1221
01:47:10.085 --> 01:47:29.270
you should DM, like, over Right. The Internet still works. Like, you know, the It lightning is a layer. The lightning is a layer on top of of of the Internet. And once you once you find somebody on the Internet, you should just direct message them. So so I think there's some nuance here, Paul. I think that it makes sense,

1222
01:47:31.410 --> 01:47:43.315
that, like, why would I use a private chat through lightning with you? Right? You're my boy. I we message through Keybase or Matrix. Right? Like, we have we already have an existing channel to talk.

1223
01:47:44.255 --> 01:47:50.059
Why am I gonna pay lightning payments for it? For a group chat, it makes more sense because for a group chat,

1224
01:47:51.639 --> 01:47:55.659
you're able to well, with civil dispatch specifically, right,

1225
01:47:56.175 --> 01:48:02.515
is is what am I trying to build over at Siddle dispatch Sphinx chat? Right? I'm trying to build

1226
01:48:03.270 --> 01:48:10.330
a a place where you can have at where you can have actionable Bitcoin discussion. Right? And and and you can

1227
01:48:10.805 --> 01:48:13.545
you can talk about things that are important for Bitcoin.

1228
01:48:14.165 --> 01:48:14.665
And

1229
01:48:15.205 --> 01:48:22.880
because of the way it's set up, I can set it up so it costs you SATs to send a message. So we don't have spam,

1230
01:48:23.340 --> 01:48:27.275
and it costs you SATs to join. So there's a there's a level exclusivity.

1231
01:48:27.655 --> 01:48:28.155
Right?

1232
01:48:28.695 --> 01:48:31.755
So you have, like, this kind of exclusive group

1233
01:48:32.135 --> 01:48:33.034
that is encrypted

1234
01:48:33.830 --> 01:48:42.489
that like, if if you're a spook, you have to pay the sats to be the spook. Right? Like, there there's there's an it's an interesting concept in in for group chats

1235
01:48:42.845 --> 01:48:45.425
or so than for individual chats. Would you agree?

1236
01:48:46.285 --> 01:48:52.750
Wait. And so well, I don't know how their group chat works. It is a very interesting concept, and it has a lot of good benefits.

1237
01:49:00.695 --> 01:49:02.155
As separate routing

1238
01:49:02.534 --> 01:49:10.395
to every single participant in the group chat chat. My understanding is yes. So when a if if there's a 100 people in a group chat, I'm sitting a 100 lightning transactions?

1239
01:49:11.000 --> 01:49:18.860
Yeah. I yes. That's my understanding. It states to the it's to the tribe host as well. Tribe host is then sending the messages out.

1240
01:49:19.795 --> 01:49:21.015
Isn't aren't they?

1241
01:49:22.595 --> 01:49:27.815
That's actually that's a that's a great question. I'm I'm not actually sure That's what I'm saying. That's that's what would be stupid.

1242
01:49:28.780 --> 01:49:31.200
I'm pretty sure that the try post is then

1243
01:49:31.660 --> 01:49:32.800
relaying it out.

1244
01:49:36.140 --> 01:49:40.775
Yeah. I'm I'm not I'm not well versed enough in it to be able to to comment authoritatively.

1245
01:49:41.395 --> 01:49:44.695
I don't think they're lightning they're not lightning they're not lightning

1246
01:49:45.310 --> 01:49:48.690
payments out, but they're relaying the message out

1247
01:49:49.150 --> 01:49:50.369
via the Internet.

1248
01:49:50.989 --> 01:49:51.889
Right. Exactly.

1249
01:49:52.375 --> 01:49:55.995
And so they're they're taking on that cost, so they get the payment.

1250
01:49:58.695 --> 01:49:59.835
Does that make sense?

1251
01:50:01.660 --> 01:50:04.880
You should get Paul on here and have him explain it. I guess Oh, nice.

1252
01:50:07.500 --> 01:50:09.760
But, yeah, I I I couldn't tell you.

1253
01:50:10.555 --> 01:50:14.015
Okay. Well, anyway, it's pretty cool. I think it's cool. It's fun.

1254
01:50:14.955 --> 01:50:18.335
The the the cool the coolest part is the streaming value,

1255
01:50:20.770 --> 01:50:28.310
but that's that's podcast only. I mean, that that it's a very cool concept. I mean, fuck podcast ads. Right? Like, we're all fucking sick of that shit.

1256
01:50:29.125 --> 01:50:35.145
I mean, yeah. I think a lot of us well and and, actually, this kinda ties into what what, Paul was saying earlier is that,

1257
01:50:35.525 --> 01:50:45.170
you know, the the the downside of free products is that they the creators and maintainers of those either have to do maintain it through altruism, which may not scale,

1258
01:50:45.735 --> 01:50:56.210
or they have to get paid for their work. And the nice thing is that if you pay someone to do a thing, you're they're much less likely to to sort of screw you out out the back door. Right?

1259
01:50:57.389 --> 01:50:57.889
Like,

1260
01:50:58.590 --> 01:51:05.235
in the case like, the the the most egregious violations of people's privacy and sovereignty come from, like, companies like Google

1261
01:51:05.535 --> 01:51:09.715
who you're not paying a dime to use any of their products. Right?

1262
01:51:10.495 --> 01:51:29.599
Right. Apple is an interesting case because by and large, they actually don't screw you over. Right? They do try to create this walled garden that keeps you in, but a lot of times they're not, like, strip mining your data and stuff like that. At least not not anywhere remotely at the scale that, like, Google and Facebook are, which are no notably free services.

1263
01:51:30.219 --> 01:51:30.719
So

1264
01:51:31.420 --> 01:51:32.719
the, you know,

1265
01:51:33.099 --> 01:51:42.060
the the goal that we have, like, at start 9 generally is to is to try to get paid when we do provide value and then, you know, not get paid when we're not.

1266
01:51:42.620 --> 01:51:45.120
And that try that that keeps us honest. Right?

1267
01:51:45.740 --> 01:51:51.235
And I think that that's a good model for a lot of these things, whether it's podcasting and you're streaming SaaS for for,

1268
01:51:51.715 --> 01:51:53.655
you know, seconds of audio feeds

1269
01:51:54.114 --> 01:52:00.455
or or whatever. Because then you're not you don't have podcasters who are selling out to various companies who have misaligned incentives.

1270
01:52:01.010 --> 01:52:03.430
Like, a lot of people just wanna pay for good stuff.

1271
01:52:05.570 --> 01:52:21.890
Ty and Chad, I I couldn't read it for a while because it was behind Matt's stupid QR code. It's not stupid, bro. It's the future. Are you you wanna talk about stupid QR codes? Are you happy? Are you happy now? I can't read it. Something about nudes behind the paywall and sphinx chat.

1272
01:52:22.270 --> 01:52:24.850
Thanks, Ty. I'm sorry that Matt hates you.

1273
01:52:28.945 --> 01:52:34.020
Ty's the boss. He's talking about nudes. Wonderful person. Yeah. So, I mean, I think Sphinx chat,

1274
01:52:34.420 --> 01:52:41.960
I love Sphinx chat. I think Sphinx chat is the the the key value prop of it is going to be OnlyFans. It's gonna be only sats. Yeah.

1275
01:52:42.535 --> 01:52:46.955
Yeah. I I think it is is a fantastic messaging service,

1276
01:52:47.575 --> 01:52:49.355
to do permissionless payments

1277
01:52:49.895 --> 01:52:50.635
for nudes.

1278
01:52:50.940 --> 01:53:14.790
100%. And porn kills everything. Like, look look, at the end of the day, porn made every single major technological advancement we've ever had. That's that's overblown. You can go no. No. It's not overblown. You can go back to 1918 when they, like, had the first phone call. It was like a sexy chat, and you and you know it. You know it's true. The first phone call was a sexy chat. Well, like, the third one was. You know it was.

1279
01:53:15.275 --> 01:53:22.815
Not the first one. The first one was, like, a public test. The first one. The first one's always a public test, but the one that made it matter, like, 17th

1280
01:53:23.275 --> 01:53:23.775
call

1281
01:53:24.139 --> 01:53:28.159
was the sexy chat. Right. The first one for money. The first one for money.

1282
01:53:29.579 --> 01:53:38.265
It's always it's it's always sex Excel. It's in it's interesting because, like, even with developer you know, like, there's some there's some efforts to, like, support,

1283
01:53:39.300 --> 01:53:41.720
like, developers, like like, for,

1284
01:53:42.340 --> 01:53:43.300
Pierre has

1285
01:53:43.940 --> 01:53:47.240
what is it? It's like for, actual for a pull request?

1286
01:53:47.655 --> 01:53:51.515
Is it for an issue? Like, can you sponsor an issue or something?

1287
01:53:52.215 --> 01:53:55.595
No. Bitcoin axe. Bitcoin axe.com. Very hard to pay developers.

1288
01:53:56.210 --> 01:53:58.710
And I say this as a developer. You have bitcoindev list.com?

1289
01:53:59.570 --> 01:54:00.630
Because, like, you

1290
01:54:01.570 --> 01:54:05.110
you if you're if you're a developer and you think you can do something,

1291
01:54:06.364 --> 01:54:13.344
you may be right or you may be wrong. And so so when someone asks you, hey, could you do this? And then you quote them a price.

1292
01:54:13.820 --> 01:54:22.480
Like, the thing might be the hardest thing in the world or the easiest thing in the world. And and unless you've done the exact same thing before, you you're not even sure

1293
01:54:23.025 --> 01:54:45.465
upfront. So, like, it is very hard to pay for development work. So, I don't know. I it makes sense that there's all these scammy startups that are trying to ruin my life. Well, I mean, this has nothing to do with development work. Like, no one's gonna use Sphinx to pay for development work, but they're gonna use it for to pay for, like, porn esque things. No. We were just I was just bringing it back to, like we were talking about how we're monetizing

1294
01:54:45.940 --> 01:54:47.560
start We have we have Hamish

1295
01:54:48.020 --> 01:54:51.400
Umbral. We have Hamish in the comments, Hamish McEwen.

1296
01:54:52.340 --> 01:55:00.405
And he's talking about a VHS one because it had porn. BBS was porn. Internet was made for porn. It's always freedom of expression.

1297
01:55:02.225 --> 01:55:05.930
And then Ty also wanted everyone to know that I'm a porno historian.

1298
01:55:10.630 --> 01:55:15.955
So that's that's true. It's true. Right? What? The porn connection to technological

1299
01:55:16.415 --> 01:55:28.670
advancements was, like, kinda overblown, but, like, I I'm not here coming with facts. So, like, I'm losing I'm losing. Look. The the killer in this case, Bitcoin is going to be to pay your VR fucking prostitute.

1300
01:55:30.295 --> 01:55:43.900
It's just Yeah. We haven't hit that yet. Like, that's what it's gonna be. You're not gonna pay them in Libra. You're not gonna pay them in USD coin or whatever the fucking regulated coin is because you're not gonna wanna fucking do that. That doesn't make any sense. You're gonna need digital cash.

1301
01:55:44.360 --> 01:55:47.980
You're gonna need real money. I miss Libra so much.

1302
01:55:48.515 --> 01:55:54.215
That was some of the best times that I ever had in my life. Was, like, reading the Libra white paper

1303
01:55:54.515 --> 01:55:56.135
and, like, watching Libra

1304
01:55:56.719 --> 01:55:58.260
explain Libra to congress.

1305
01:55:59.280 --> 01:56:16.989
That was that was so much fun, and they need to I just want Libra back. Dude, I just wanna say that I loved having you on a mainstream technology podcast. It was, like, really special that we had you for a little bit there. You're a you're a you're a Joe Kernan insider. You know, it's huge. You. I tried my best.

1306
01:56:19.210 --> 01:56:20.590
I mean, I I

1307
01:56:21.130 --> 01:56:21.869
I think

1308
01:56:22.250 --> 01:56:29.135
our time is running out. So I want to hit some big points with you, Keegan, before we end this.

1309
01:56:30.795 --> 01:56:31.695
First of all,

1310
01:56:32.500 --> 01:56:41.159
what are your thoughts on Bitcoin being designed to pump forever? Do you do you think it's designed to pump forever, or you're just trying to have fun staying poor?

1311
01:56:42.665 --> 01:56:44.365
So I'm I'm, like,

1312
01:56:44.745 --> 01:56:45.245
famously

1313
01:56:45.625 --> 01:56:50.925
the bearable. Like, so so full disclosure, I I work in Bitcoin daily through Start9.

1314
01:56:51.660 --> 01:57:02.864
I like, my even just among the people who work at Start 9, my focus is particularly on Bitcoin. The vast majority of my net worth is in Bitcoin, and yet I always seem to be the bearish one one in any given room.

1315
01:57:03.885 --> 01:57:12.020
So I I do think that it is designed to pump forever. I think that the rate at which it will pump forever is actually going to I mean, it has to decline,

1316
01:57:13.679 --> 01:57:15.620
and it will converge something

1317
01:57:16.320 --> 01:57:20.595
along the lines to to to something like what economic growth is.

1318
01:57:22.575 --> 01:57:27.235
But I also had this interesting exchange this morning on Twitter with Hector,

1319
01:57:28.949 --> 01:57:29.449
who,

1320
01:57:30.230 --> 01:57:31.610
plotted this very,

1321
01:57:31.910 --> 01:57:34.410
interesting graph of the GDP

1322
01:57:35.350 --> 01:57:37.210
versus the m two money supply.

1323
01:57:39.165 --> 01:57:39.565
And,

1324
01:57:40.605 --> 01:57:45.025
what it showed was that the m two money supply was expanding at a much faster rate than GDP.

1325
01:57:45.640 --> 01:57:47.420
And I came to the the interesting

1326
01:57:47.960 --> 01:57:51.500
realization that it's possible that as economies get more complex

1327
01:57:52.120 --> 01:57:56.985
and the trade cycles elongate because that's why we have money is to be able to trade, you know,

1328
01:57:57.605 --> 01:58:06.020
various goods and services between each other without having to come up with a a barter. And so as economies get more complex, people specialize more goods and services,

1329
01:58:06.400 --> 01:58:07.460
the need for money,

1330
01:58:07.840 --> 01:58:15.145
the need for liquidity in general goes up. And if it goes up in a nonlinear way, it actually might pump a lot more than I originally expected,

1331
01:58:15.845 --> 01:58:24.219
which is because, you know, if the the economy gets super complex, then that means that you need you know, if the the economy is twice as complex for whatever,

1332
01:58:24.540 --> 01:58:25.760
metric you wanna use

1333
01:58:26.139 --> 01:58:44.090
and that requires 4 times as much liquidity, well, of course, that might in the fiat world, that'll involve an expansion of the m two money supply. But in a Bitcoin world, we can't expand the money supply. So the only thing that can happen is that the money itself will be more and more valuable in in response to that needed liquidity.

1334
01:58:44.630 --> 01:58:45.130
So

1335
01:58:45.825 --> 01:58:57.290
I don't know where I actually stand on that, but that was a very that was an epiphany I had this morning that I haven't totally digested yet. So short answer is, yes. It's designed to pump forever. The jury's out on by how much.

1336
01:58:59.670 --> 01:59:00.330
I mean,

1337
01:59:01.725 --> 01:59:10.480
I think even in, like answer I've heard on this this stupid show so far. No. Oh, it was stupid show. You fucking listen to every fucking episode. That's stupid.

1338
01:59:11.420 --> 01:59:12.159
I I,

1339
01:59:13.020 --> 01:59:14.159
thank you for joining,

1340
01:59:14.460 --> 01:59:16.000
guys, on this stupid show.

1341
01:59:16.380 --> 01:59:16.699
I I

1342
01:59:19.145 --> 01:59:20.204
2 hours in.

1343
01:59:20.585 --> 01:59:22.025
I I just want to

1344
01:59:22.824 --> 01:59:26.364
in a post fiat world, Bitcoin still pumps forever.

1345
01:59:27.260 --> 01:59:36.325
Yeah. Relative to goods and services, but by how much? But, like, the purchasing power the purchasing power is gonna increase forever. Yes. But not like a 200

1346
01:59:36.805 --> 01:59:40.185
I I like this distinction. It's not it's not gonna do 200%.

1347
01:59:40.645 --> 01:59:44.905
No. No. Definitely not. Don't. No one thinks that. Does anyone think that?

1348
01:59:45.510 --> 01:59:46.510
But but

1349
01:59:46.949 --> 01:59:48.810
and I haven't heard that. No.

1350
01:59:49.190 --> 01:59:51.130
But it's it's gonna pump differently.

1351
01:59:51.670 --> 01:59:56.804
But It'll pump it'll pump decently, like, you'll still you'll you'll have purchasing power increases.

1352
01:59:57.425 --> 01:59:59.125
If we're gonna talk like a proper,

1353
01:59:59.745 --> 02:00:01.685
you know, glasses on economist,

1354
02:00:02.400 --> 02:00:03.520
economist, like

1355
02:00:04.160 --> 02:00:05.620
Economics. You're talking Economics.

1356
02:00:06.160 --> 02:00:27.300
You're talking you're talking just like increased purchasing power. Like every every year, you're just like your houses get cheaper. No no joke. That was one of, like, the biggest things, like, for me to, like when I went from someone who's, like, interested in Bitcoin and just live listening to rabbit hole recap and just like, oh, what what is this thing? You know? To, like, oh, I'm a Bitcoiner.

1357
02:00:27.680 --> 02:00:29.455
Was that that realization, like,

1358
02:00:30.575 --> 02:00:31.235
at minimum,

1359
02:00:31.775 --> 02:00:32.595
it's GDP

1360
02:00:33.135 --> 02:00:34.355
percent forever.

1361
02:00:35.055 --> 02:00:37.075
Right? Yeah. It Yeah.

1362
02:00:38.710 --> 02:00:52.015
It's store it's it's where we With variations. It's where we it's where we store our wealth. So however much wealth we create in a year, it's it's at least goes up that much. I don't totally understand what you're saying with these complex financial

1363
02:00:52.795 --> 02:01:01.360
things. It's not complex, bro. Right. Right. What I what I meant by that is that, like, in a in a primordial economy where, like, you have fish,

1364
02:01:01.820 --> 02:01:07.155
clothing and, I don't know, like, spears or something like that, The need for liquidity

1365
02:01:07.535 --> 02:01:13.635
is much lower than in a an economy where you could buy, like, a 1000 or 10000 different things.

1366
02:01:14.030 --> 02:01:17.490
So as the economy improves and people specialize more,

1367
02:01:17.950 --> 02:01:24.815
that there will and there are more different things to buy, the need for liquidity goes up. But if the actual units of money that you have remains finite

1368
02:01:25.275 --> 02:01:31.375
and the liquidity needs go up, then money becomes a more attractive asset to hold, which causes it to pump even more.

1369
02:01:31.720 --> 02:01:41.020
So that was the realization that I had this morning. So, like, in a simple economy, I go to the convenience store. There's only one Twinkie. So I I only need so much liquidity.

1370
02:01:41.525 --> 02:01:46.905
But in a more complex economy, there's like the the the convenience store could like 3 d print me

1371
02:01:47.364 --> 02:01:52.530
10,000 Twinkies on demand. So I need the liquidity to be able to handle that kind of

1372
02:01:53.390 --> 02:01:53.890
Right.

1373
02:01:54.590 --> 02:01:58.370
It it yeah. And it has to do more with, like, how

1374
02:01:58.865 --> 02:02:06.965
how many different people have to be able to trade with each other until if you like, such that if you remove the money, all their needs would be satisfied.

1375
02:02:07.680 --> 02:02:08.660
And that is,

1376
02:02:09.680 --> 02:02:24.465
like, that explodes very quickly. I like that way of thinking of it because, like, the other way to go is, like, well, when do we introduce debt into this equation? And and I that just gets, like debt has has done so much horrible stuff to, like, my generation

1377
02:02:25.250 --> 02:02:33.670
and the previous generation. Like, I all I almost don't wanna think about it right now. You know? I wanna stay so far away from it because I just want, like, real

1378
02:02:34.155 --> 02:02:37.135
settlement, a real money, real value for,

1379
02:02:37.515 --> 02:02:38.895
you know, for work.

1380
02:02:40.795 --> 02:02:48.199
Well, so the thing about debt is that debt debt, when used for bad things, is bad sort of axiomatically, I guess. Right? But,

1381
02:02:49.540 --> 02:02:56.465
having society in debt is actually very, very bad, and that's what we're noticing and we have been living through for the last decade

1382
02:02:56.845 --> 02:02:58.385
or, I guess, longer than that.

1383
02:02:59.750 --> 02:03:06.650
But, you know, having debt at all is not necessarily a bad thing. It helps finance a lot of projects that are basically

1384
02:03:07.485 --> 02:03:15.185
that that they're they are net productive to society. They're net productive to the parties involved, but the order of events are not such that they can actually happen.

1385
02:03:15.500 --> 02:03:18.960
So I think we'll still continue to have debt. But the nice thing about Bitcoin's

1386
02:03:20.460 --> 02:03:27.435
finite and pump forever quality is that it sets a minimum interest rate floor. Pump forever. You have to you you have to beat,

1387
02:03:28.295 --> 02:03:34.235
the what are the average investment, so to speak, in order for something to to work out. Because think about this. Right?

1388
02:03:34.600 --> 02:03:39.500
If nobody's lending any money and lending is, like, the only way that that projects are gonna get financed,

1389
02:03:41.000 --> 02:03:50.875
then eventually GDP effectively goes to 0. Like, no net new productivity happens. And if that's the case, then you need point 001% interest, and then you're you're profitable.

1390
02:03:51.290 --> 02:03:58.190
But if the economy is going at, like, 2% a year, right, in terms of the amount of output that it's generating, then you have to beat 2%.

1391
02:04:00.995 --> 02:04:17.260
My favorite part about this show is is is I just had a bunch of smart people talk about Bitcoin being designed to pump forever as Bitcoin's design pumping forever. Like, it's just going up. Like, it's just every episode just the price is higher, which is gonna be hilarious looking back. Like, people are gonna be

1392
02:04:18.095 --> 02:04:20.915
we're gonna be at sad stem parity, and people are gonna be, like,

1393
02:04:21.215 --> 02:04:24.675
I don't fucking care what Keegan said about Bitcoin pumping forever.

1394
02:04:25.320 --> 02:04:27.180
He was talking about it at point

1395
02:04:27.480 --> 02:04:27.980
6.

1396
02:04:28.680 --> 02:04:29.800
Yeah, dude. I'm just like I

1397
02:04:30.520 --> 02:04:45.370
Come come back to me when when debt is a has a free market price. When there's interest rates are are decided on the free market, come back to me, and let's let's figure out how how good debt is for us then. Like, when it when it's 20 20%,

1398
02:04:46.230 --> 02:04:48.010
you know, for for a house

1399
02:04:48.389 --> 02:04:48.889
loan,

1400
02:04:49.429 --> 02:05:00.560
people aren't gonna be such a big fan anymore. And I I think that's gonna be real good real good for us. I just don't know why you brought premiums. Clear, I agree. Right? I just think that the the the financial instrument of debt is too useful to uninvent.

1401
02:05:01.179 --> 02:05:04.800
But the fact that it's been abused for decades on end,

1402
02:05:05.420 --> 02:05:08.800
or actually probably the entirety of human history, most likely

1403
02:05:09.225 --> 02:05:13.245
Or I guess it's really since the invention of fiat money. So post 1971.

1404
02:05:14.745 --> 02:05:17.965
If that's when things get just absolutely out of control. Right? Like,

1405
02:05:18.930 --> 02:05:26.630
I'm not gonna sit here and try to say that what we're doing at at the US Federal Reserve is, like, good. It's I unambiguously

1406
02:05:26.930 --> 02:05:27.910
think it's terrible.

1407
02:05:28.445 --> 02:05:31.565
But I don't think that even in a sound money system that,

1408
02:05:31.965 --> 02:05:38.660
Bitcoin promises, do we have no debt? I think that it will still exist. No. There's a 100% could still be debt.

1409
02:05:39.360 --> 02:05:42.260
I mean, look. I'm a like, Paul, I'll still lend you money.

1410
02:05:43.574 --> 02:05:46.795
I thought you're the guy that, like, turns people away when they want water.

1411
02:05:47.255 --> 02:06:04.385
No. What the fuck, bro? You don't think I'm gonna fucking provide you and your family water? You've explained this to Marty a number of times. Like, I'm worried about all these people that they're gonna want water post post Yeah. But Paul, Paul, you and you you and yours are gonna get water. Like, I'm not gonna turn you guys away.

1412
02:06:04.685 --> 02:06:12.520
Oh, I'm like the the cantillon. The You're in the inside. You're in the inside. You came on you came on dispatch. You were a cohost on dispatch. Batch. Oh, good.

1413
02:06:13.139 --> 02:06:27.605
Yeah. Yeah. Any any any of the guests on dispatch, any of the ride or dive freaks in the chat, like, they'll get preferential water treatment. But everyone else, you know, it's gonna be on a 1st come, 1st serve basis. It is what it is. It's like, I can't manufacture water. Yeah. Exactly. We can do it.

1414
02:06:28.385 --> 02:06:28.885
Keegan,

1415
02:06:29.570 --> 02:06:32.469
we have we have, like, we have about 20 minutes left.

1416
02:06:34.369 --> 02:06:37.750
It would be who of me to ignore this topic.

1417
02:06:38.615 --> 02:06:39.835
It is probably

1418
02:06:40.135 --> 02:06:40.875
one of

1419
02:06:41.175 --> 02:06:43.195
the most fun topics in Bitcoin.

1420
02:06:44.935 --> 02:06:48.300
Your so called open source license does not allow

1421
02:06:49.240 --> 02:06:49.740
commercialization

1422
02:06:50.200 --> 02:06:51.100
of that license.

1423
02:06:51.720 --> 02:06:52.200
Mhmm.

1424
02:06:53.375 --> 02:06:54.755
You wanna defend yourself

1425
02:06:55.215 --> 02:06:59.955
and why that is important that you have commercial protection on that license

1426
02:07:00.335 --> 02:07:02.275
and why that still is open source

1427
02:07:02.740 --> 02:07:06.520
by your razor? So we've gone back and forth on this,

1428
02:07:06.980 --> 02:07:10.440
plenty of times. So I I will say that it's not

1429
02:07:10.965 --> 02:07:12.085
it's not something that we are,

1430
02:07:13.685 --> 02:07:14.185
unambiguously

1431
02:07:15.045 --> 02:07:22.310
sort of, gonna or it's not necessarily a hill we're gonna die on, but the what fed into some of the decision making is that

1432
02:07:22.770 --> 02:07:24.390
in a world where

1433
02:07:24.930 --> 02:07:25.750
we're selling,

1434
02:07:27.735 --> 02:07:48.335
here's the thing. This what what we're selling what we're we're helping provide is trustware. It's like a a piece of software that you have to be able trust. And in order to trust it, you need to be able to know what you're running. So we we want we definitely the entire company is in agreement that we want the the source code to be out there so that people can audit it.

1435
02:07:48.875 --> 02:07:54.735
The question is around whether we want to sort of finance our competitors with our own hard efforts,

1436
02:07:56.060 --> 02:07:56.960
to be able

1437
02:07:57.420 --> 02:08:00.960
to, sort of essentially copy our business and and and move on.

1438
02:08:01.580 --> 02:08:02.080
So

1439
02:08:02.435 --> 02:08:08.054
that's that's the essential tension. And the way that we came down on it was like, look, we're we're a young company.

1440
02:08:08.435 --> 02:08:10.695
A lot of us are really like, we're we're working

1441
02:08:11.110 --> 02:08:12.490
full time without pay.

1442
02:08:12.950 --> 02:08:21.425
And what we don't want is to get, you know, 2 years down the road and someone to just, like, with larger financing be able to come in, copy everything, and and just,

1443
02:08:22.145 --> 02:08:32.739
basically steal our work for the last, couple of years. Right. But, you know, obviously, that presents different issues with, you know, people being able to to, you know, fork it and and,

1444
02:08:33.440 --> 02:08:36.980
you know, like, modify it, use it for personal use, etcetera.

1445
02:08:37.360 --> 02:08:42.164
So what we tried to do is strike a balance between allowing users

1446
02:08:42.625 --> 02:08:45.284
like, anybody who wants to to build it from source,

1447
02:08:45.744 --> 02:08:52.800
use it, for free, they can do so. At least that's the way we intended it to write. And if there are any, like, expert legal,

1448
02:08:53.820 --> 02:09:07.870
folks who, like, look at our license and are like, oh, that license doesn't say you could do that. We'd love to hear from you because we're we're software developers first. And, yes, we do have some legal counsel. But, like, if the the license doesn't reflect the intent, it's not like we're gonna stay married to the license.

1449
02:09:08.570 --> 02:09:16.595
But the intent is if you're gonna build from source and use it for yourself, you should be able to do that free of charge. No problem. You should be able to, like, you know,

1450
02:09:17.430 --> 02:09:24.010
if you wanna be make modifications for personal use, that should be, for you. Like like, you should be able to do that without intervention.

1451
02:09:24.705 --> 02:09:40.040
We the only thing that we're trying to avoid is various other people just being like, yo. Oh, Start 9 is selling a bunch of devices with this operating system. Let's let's let's just steal it, put it on our own devices You don't want me. And sell right? You don't want me and Paul to just start start 10

1452
02:09:40.340 --> 02:09:41.880
or whatever. Yeah. Or 10. Exactly.

1453
02:09:42.485 --> 02:09:49.304
Right. And and that's 10 letters of It's the future of self hosting. There there's a really good example of this with with GrapheneOS,

1454
02:09:49.605 --> 02:09:50.310
and what is it?

1455
02:09:51.270 --> 02:09:51.770
Copperhead?

1456
02:09:52.310 --> 02:09:55.850
But no. That's not a good example, but it it kind of is an example.

1457
02:09:56.310 --> 02:10:10.900
Well, I'm I I I'm I'm playing the devil So you wanna talk about that? I'm saying the devil being the person who would try to use the government to enforce intellectual property. That was a that was an anger between parties. A better example is the is

1458
02:10:11.600 --> 02:10:12.100
is,

1459
02:10:13.680 --> 02:10:18.100
the fight that's going because that was just they were they were business partners

1460
02:10:18.415 --> 02:10:42.495
And Right. But I but I'm but I'm just agreed. Right? You have this you have this scenario where there's a free and open source project, and someone else is trying to sell it and trying to monetize it, And they're kind of being an asshole to the people who made it free and open source to the point where you'd think, oh, man, I regret making this free and open source. You know? Right. But, like, I I I and I I said this to MBK as well. It's like

1461
02:10:43.195 --> 02:10:45.995
He's the best example. He's the best so his

1462
02:10:46.470 --> 02:10:50.489
because it happened to him. Right? He had a non he had a non partner

1463
02:10:50.950 --> 02:10:59.554
completely fork his work, take investment based off of it, take preorders based off of it, and he commercialized his work, right, Foundation Devices.

1464
02:11:00.735 --> 02:11:04.460
We we still don't have a hardware wallet from them yet. They have not shipped anything.

1465
02:11:04.760 --> 02:11:07.980
And they took they they took investment, and they took preorders

1466
02:11:08.280 --> 02:11:08.780
off

1467
02:11:09.480 --> 02:11:15.165
of off of off of the work that him and Peter did over at CoinKite. But it it was open source. It was GPL.

1468
02:11:15.545 --> 02:11:17.465
Right? So so I'm just saying put

1469
02:11:18.070 --> 02:11:22.250
don't use GPO. Use MIT, and then add something No. No. Fuck MIT.

1470
02:11:22.790 --> 02:11:25.050
Add something that to MIT that says,

1471
02:11:25.695 --> 02:11:31.075
if I copy this, and I sell it, and I pretend like this was my identity. I disagree with MIT. So MIT

1472
02:11:31.535 --> 02:11:34.020
MIT says that anyone can use

1473
02:11:34.340 --> 02:11:36.760
your source whatever the fuck they wanna do.

1474
02:11:37.140 --> 02:11:42.835
Okay? GPL says anyone can use your source, but if they use your source, it has to be open source. So

1475
02:11:43.315 --> 02:11:46.455
what Star 9 does what's Oh, we're working on that. Yeah.

1476
02:11:46.835 --> 02:11:58.599
What Star 9 does and what other organizations do is is they have a separate one that is that is you can do whatever the fuck you wanna do with it, but if you wanna sell the software, then you have to get it licensed.

1477
02:11:59.380 --> 02:12:01.320
Those are the, like, the three levels.

1478
02:12:01.645 --> 02:12:05.185
So it's like soft software open source. Joe Biden.

1479
02:12:05.565 --> 02:12:10.449
It's like software plus the executive branch of the US The problem the problem with MIT

1480
02:12:11.070 --> 02:12:12.690
is you could have

1481
02:12:13.230 --> 02:12:19.705
a private corporation come in and hoove up all of your fucking things, all of your fucking code

1482
02:12:20.085 --> 02:12:37.844
But they can't steal it. And they can sell it. They can sell it. But but they can sell it as closed source. MIT, they can sell it as closed source. Go for it. They're the asshole. No. No. No. But but with GPL, they're forced with GPL, they're forced to at least keep it open. And Who forces So if you're gonna if you're gonna do them.

1483
02:12:38.145 --> 02:12:38.965
The I mean

1484
02:12:39.905 --> 02:12:40.565
The government.

1485
02:12:41.025 --> 02:13:02.680
So you're just, like, you're just saying, hey, but I'm saying if you live in a government world, you might as well go GPL instead of MIT. You don't wanna go MIT because MIT, you just allow MIT, you're just allowing them to just take your fucking software and just create AWS. AWS is all fucking MIT software that they just kept closed, and they just didn't open up. I'm a software developer. I avoid GPL

1486
02:13:03.060 --> 02:13:08.565
like the plague. Because GPL is designed to be it's designed to be a virus. It's designed to ruin

1487
02:13:09.025 --> 02:13:13.525
or not to ruin. It's designed to turn everything it touches into GPL.

1488
02:13:14.065 --> 02:13:16.245
And that's the beauty of it. It's gorgeous.

1489
02:13:16.940 --> 02:13:33.505
No. It's it's disgusting. It's trying to use government power to force people to gain this money. Way worse. I don't want fucking BlueWallet to be MIT and then just have, like, the fucking cash app just, like, releases blue wallet closed source and just takes their fucking code. Who cares? Then they're the asshole.

1490
02:13:33.940 --> 02:13:46.545
If someone copies something, and they're obviously not contributing It should still be fucking open source at that point, and that's what GPL does. If if you live in a world that has fucking law and shit. GPL's for communist,

1491
02:13:47.885 --> 02:13:49.265
and my fee's for anarchists.

1492
02:13:53.380 --> 02:13:55.160
Are you calling me Matt? Matt?

1493
02:13:56.340 --> 02:14:00.440
Are you calling me? I'm I'm trying not to interrupt. You guys both talk.

1494
02:14:00.925 --> 02:14:07.905
V 4LR was upset with me that I interrupted you guys. So you guys just you guys let let us know what you think about the open source licenses.

1495
02:14:09.360 --> 02:14:12.420
I I I will say this, is that we GPL

1496
02:14:13.120 --> 02:14:18.135
is the only other model that I think that we would try to consider. Right? And, you

1497
02:14:19.474 --> 02:14:20.295
know, that

1498
02:14:20.835 --> 02:14:25.474
I I I actually can't say anything definitively about where we're gonna be going with this,

1499
02:14:26.835 --> 02:14:59.025
but I will say that things like the MIT are pretty much off the table, at least for now. The unlicensed 61 dot 2 talked about is off the table for now. And, you know, that just has to do with the fact that, like, we're you're you're we're committing all of our effort to to do this on a daily basis, and that has to get financed somehow. Look. If someone has a better idea for how to finance this, like, this work, because we like, this value creation indefinitely, like, I I'm I'm not gonna sit here and say that this is the only way we're ever gonna make this work.

1500
02:14:59.565 --> 02:15:05.830
It's just we haven't figured out a better way, and we would like to be able to keep doing this. We think it's valuable. We think other people think it's valuable.

1501
02:15:06.370 --> 02:15:06.850
And,

1502
02:15:07.330 --> 02:15:22.230
you know, that's that's kinda where we're at right now. I I totally feel that. And and and like I I was saying early on, I guess that tension between, I'm so glad that there's a company that I can give money to that is trying to make the thing that I want. You know? How exciting is that?

1503
02:15:23.170 --> 02:15:26.690
But from the software side, I see a license that's not,

1504
02:15:28.505 --> 02:15:38.204
that's not MIT. And it's it's it's it's not useful to me as, like, from a development perspective. I'm glad it's I I I look at you. You have you have source viewable.

1505
02:15:38.650 --> 02:15:39.250
You know? I

1506
02:15:39.690 --> 02:15:53.695
I'm glad that myself and other people can inspect what you're trying to ship and and make sure that you're not, like, stealing funds with it. You know? But it's not something that's interesting to me as part of the the

1507
02:15:54.075 --> 02:16:00.270
the canon of open source software. You know? Which is what is very important is it's something that I feel like we're slowly building

1508
02:16:00.570 --> 02:16:04.890
software that allows that really empowers us. It makes us private. It makes us,

1509
02:16:05.655 --> 02:16:06.555
able to communicate.

1510
02:16:07.335 --> 02:16:10.135
It makes us able to transact, you know, with money.

1511
02:16:11.895 --> 02:16:23.190
But, the the this is not that. You know? This is a product that you're selling that then you're also showing us the code that you Yes. Ship to people. And I'm glad for that.

1512
02:16:23.985 --> 02:16:27.205
But but it's not it's doesn't feel like open source to me.

1513
02:16:28.065 --> 02:16:37.290
Yeah. It's it's like it's open source code in the sense that, like, you can see the code. It's not open source code as in, like, it's, like, oh, like, owned by

1514
02:16:37.910 --> 02:16:39.290
everyone, so to speak.

1515
02:16:39.750 --> 02:16:40.250
Yeah.

1516
02:16:43.575 --> 02:16:45.035
But it's 2 things. Right?

1517
02:16:45.415 --> 02:16:52.040
And, like, I think feel like it's important that we don't conflate the 2 things. Like, it's very important that people are able to view the source.

1518
02:16:52.660 --> 02:17:05.926
And and for the average person, the ability to manipulate the source and do whatever the fuck they wanna do with it is important. And for most people, the fucking license doesn't matter in that effect because no one's gonna enforce,

1519
02:17:06.870 --> 02:17:10.569
you know, Paul or John or some random schmuck, like,

1520
02:17:11.189 --> 02:17:13.130
changing the code for his own

1521
02:17:13.485 --> 02:17:28.529
whatever he wants to do. And and and not only that, but, like, our license in theory shouldn't even, like, bar you from manipulating the code and using it however you want with the exception of if you try to then turn around commercialize it. But then you have something different, which is this idea of the code surviving

1522
02:17:28.830 --> 02:17:31.250
virally. Right? And that idea

1523
02:17:31.950 --> 02:17:33.010
revolves around

1524
02:17:34.245 --> 02:17:48.890
a permissive license so that a user doesn't have to worry about it. Like, for a a perfect example I don't know if it's a perfect example. It's actually probably not a perfect example, is that every episode of Citadel dispatch ends with copyrighted content

1525
02:17:49.430 --> 02:17:51.770
that gets taken down from a bunch of different,

1526
02:17:53.345 --> 02:18:00.165
service providers. Right? And and the reasoning is because of the licensing. Right? So the licensing doesn't allow that

1527
02:18:00.721 --> 02:18:06.500
information to be free. And and you have the same effect with software, so you don't have,

1528
02:18:08.386 --> 02:18:14.726
you don't have the hive mind working on things if if it's only source viewable and it's not proper open source. Right?

1529
02:18:15.240 --> 02:18:17.000
Something Anthony points out,

1530
02:18:17.560 --> 02:18:31.604
in chat. Umbrel has a very similar license. It's like Creative Commons. Right. No And that has not been controversial at all. It sucks. And and I I've been so bad. Something with something with, like, a really good license is, Nick's Bitcoin.

1531
02:18:32.020 --> 02:18:35.880
And I and I really like it, conceptually. It's got MIT license.

1532
02:18:36.580 --> 02:18:38.280
And I and I like the idea

1533
02:18:39.755 --> 02:18:44.175
of of NICS in general. But I've tried to run NICS, and I completely failed.

1534
02:18:44.795 --> 02:18:50.420
NICS is a very expert piece of technology. I'm not, yeah, I'm not smart enough. Go is very easy to run.

1535
02:18:52.800 --> 02:18:57.435
So so I I see how how hypocritical I am with this.

1536
02:18:58.295 --> 02:19:03.630
No. So MIT is wrong, though, still. I'm still against MIT. I think MIT is just

1537
02:19:03.931 --> 02:19:06.270
MIT is us lowering our shields.

1538
02:19:07.450 --> 02:19:08.990
MIT is us

1539
02:19:09.365 --> 02:19:09.865
being,

1540
02:19:10.325 --> 02:19:28.755
like, oh, we're about to line up for war, but war doesn't matter. It's fine. We're all in this together. We're humans. So and GPL is like, hey. Let's line up for a war, and I hope No. GPO is like my team. Is like, if you're gonna take this, I will be angry at you unless you line up next to me.

1541
02:19:29.135 --> 02:19:36.181
That's what I'm saying. MIT plus, you're an asshole if you commercialize this against my will. That's that's the license that I'm promoting.

1542
02:19:36.641 --> 02:19:40.740
But that's exactly what Matt is saying though with the lower That's what GPL is.

1543
02:19:41.280 --> 02:19:43.381
No. GPL involves the government.

1544
02:19:44.006 --> 02:19:54.770
No. No. We have to figure out all all licenses involve the government. Who's enforcing whatever the fuck you want them to enforce? We have to figure out intellectual property if there is such a thing,

1545
02:19:55.150 --> 02:20:07.365
sans government, if we're gonna if we're gonna have this bright, beautiful future that we're all planning on. The cool part about GPL is that gives us water. The cool part about GPL is it forces corporations

1546
02:20:07.745 --> 02:20:09.605
to fucking keep it open source,

1547
02:20:10.690 --> 02:20:17.330
and and MIT doesn't. So you can just have with MIT, it's so loose of a license that you could just have

1548
02:20:17.945 --> 02:20:22.445
and this is what happened with AWS. AWS just Who forces? The license doesn't AWS

1549
02:20:22.985 --> 02:20:41.735
Who forces them to do it? Who forces them? Oh, we ended up in a situation where AWS, like, runs a shit ton of the Internet, and they're doing it on open source software that is closed source on their side because they took MIT software. And they're a public company, so they have people that they have to respond to. They can't just, like, hide it.

1550
02:20:42.381 --> 02:20:49.841
You know? They they're they're aware of it. They're well aware of it. I we have Thai in here. There's no IP. I understand. Okay?

1551
02:20:50.335 --> 02:20:57.235
Like, if if we wanna be NCAPs, I understand. Okay? But Amazon's not being NCAP. They're using the MIT license

1552
02:20:57.740 --> 02:21:06.560
in a cap world. If if In a non Ancap world, and they're they're they're using it to their advantage. If Ancap doesn't work while people are being

1553
02:21:09.025 --> 02:21:11.125
no no am. I don't know what

1554
02:21:12.306 --> 02:21:18.740
while status exist, if ANCAP cap doesn't work while status still exist, then ANCAP doesn't work.

1555
02:21:20.801 --> 02:21:22.181
I'm not I'm not defending

1556
02:21:22.641 --> 02:21:24.101
ANCAP. I'm just saying

1557
02:21:25.345 --> 02:21:32.645
that in an NCAP world, licenses don't matter. It's it's the licenses are all coming down to government enforcement, period.

1558
02:21:33.910 --> 02:21:34.410
And

1559
02:21:35.350 --> 02:21:48.600
the the the It's embedded in the concept of a license at all. Amazon is admitting to Amazon admits that they took all of this open source software. They just took it and was m I MIT. Wait. Wait. Daddy Warbits, you're leaving. Don't leave yet.

1560
02:21:50.520 --> 02:21:52.460
Daddy Warbits has 2 tickets,

1561
02:21:53.640 --> 02:21:55.420
for Bitcoin 2021

1562
02:21:56.226 --> 02:21:59.926
that he wants to either auction off or raffle off

1563
02:22:00.306 --> 02:22:02.085
on the next civil dispatch

1564
02:22:02.546 --> 02:22:12.170
because we did not communicate together about how we're gonna fucking do that. So tune in next week for that. Thank you, daddy Warbits. We appreciate you.

1565
02:22:12.949 --> 02:22:13.449
Cheers.

1566
02:22:18.665 --> 02:22:27.270
All these other conversations, I appreciate this is this is a great conversation. I think this is very good. I I appreciate both of you, jumping in here. I appreciate 6102

1567
02:22:27.650 --> 02:22:29.750
saying that IP is the biggest fraud.

1568
02:22:30.415 --> 02:22:31.315
Doesn't work.

1569
02:22:31.855 --> 02:22:32.355
And

1570
02:22:33.056 --> 02:22:36.836
NCAP doesn't work does work. NCAP does work. Look at torrents.

1571
02:22:38.870 --> 02:22:41.610
That's interesting. Don't solve who makes the movies.

1572
02:22:42.950 --> 02:22:43.450
Exactly.

1573
02:22:44.555 --> 02:22:52.095
So I I've tried to be very sympathetic in a to what what you you guys are doing, what the way MVK is doing, what Umbral is doing.

1574
02:22:52.659 --> 02:22:56.279
But I personally am going to try to trend in the direction

1575
02:22:56.979 --> 02:22:57.460
of,

1576
02:22:57.939 --> 02:22:59.060
of software that I can,

1577
02:23:00.465 --> 02:23:07.045
that I feel comfortable with the the that it's part of the canon of software, and it's not someone's product. You know?

1578
02:23:08.561 --> 02:23:09.780
I mean, yeah. Like,

1579
02:23:10.160 --> 02:23:17.140
yeah, that is that is certainly your prerogative and choice. Right? Like I said, the we made the we made choices that we did because

1580
02:23:17.635 --> 02:23:19.015
that was what we saw,

1581
02:23:19.715 --> 02:23:24.854
being able to allow us to continue to do work and to to help create value for the ecosystem.

1582
02:23:25.650 --> 02:23:30.070
And the the the day we find a better way to create a sustainable,

1583
02:23:31.010 --> 02:23:32.785
arrangement where people can get

1584
02:23:33.186 --> 02:23:36.726
can can create value and then get paid for it, then, like, we'll we'll do that.

1585
02:23:38.465 --> 02:24:04.100
And so I I don't I I'm neither going to apologize for the decisions we've made and nor and nor am I going to die on the hill saying that we're going to do this in perpetuity and everybody can go fuck themselves for telling us not to do it. Like, I'm I'm like, to me, this is a it's it's like it's like a work in progress. And, like, I'd like to, you know, I'd like to understand, you know, better models or or whatever. So I think I can get one of these and just run Bitwarden

1586
02:24:04.640 --> 02:24:05.165
and Mastodon.

1587
02:24:05.885 --> 02:24:29.995
I already got Umbrel synced, so I don't even need to I think I think if you really care about open source, like, you should just fight about this till you die. Like, I think that's just like the we we should just, like, we should just constantly argue about this and just fluctuate our opinions. Like, our opinion should change dramatically from until, like, 30 years from now, but we should just argue it the whole fucking time. And I think that's, the important part with open source.

1588
02:24:31.149 --> 02:24:31.649
Yep.

1589
02:24:32.830 --> 02:24:38.770
But I I I do I I a 100% like, I'll I will defend you guys. I will defend your license,

1590
02:24:40.115 --> 02:24:41.575
until the end of the show.

1591
02:24:42.115 --> 02:24:46.695
Not the end of this show, like, this episode, like, to the end of of until I leave.

1592
02:24:48.010 --> 02:24:56.670
Well, we appreciate that. Back and forth because I I I I I completely understand the concept. It makes sense to me. It's capitalism at its finest.

1593
02:24:57.295 --> 02:25:01.135
Yeah. And and the the thing is, like, we we don't expect everyone to agree, but,

1594
02:25:01.774 --> 02:25:04.740
we're also not like, it's not a position that I think

1595
02:25:05.141 --> 02:25:11.561
all needs a ton of defending. Right? It's like, I think it's a it's a reasonable position even if you don't agree with it.

1596
02:25:12.101 --> 02:25:16.145
My optimism Well, I mean, if you don't think it needs defending, then I won't defend it. What

1597
02:25:16.686 --> 02:25:32.774
My my hope is that in the long run, like, it it it isn't a trade off. Like, my my dream would be that you guys would move to MIT and that you, like, your profits would improve. And I can't prove that that would actually happen, but that would be awesome for me. The

1598
02:25:33.234 --> 02:25:40.215
the the secret, Paul Paul, the secret is as long as the source is viewable, none of this fucking matters unless you're trying to fucking

1599
02:25:40.851 --> 02:25:47.910
be Tim Tim Apple on this. Like, you're just trying to make money off of them. If you're not trying to make money off of them, they can't enforce any of this shit,

1600
02:25:48.475 --> 02:25:53.695
And that's the beauty of source viewable. Like, you should just be able to see the source. As long as you can see the source,

1601
02:25:54.315 --> 02:25:58.620
I'm done. What if I'm what if I'm just come what if I'm just building something interesting

1602
02:25:59.000 --> 02:26:11.676
Build it as a NIM, bro. Then I wanna copy and paste some of their Build it as a NIM, and if they try and shut you down if they try and shut you down, it'll be the best advertisement ever for what you're building. Like, that's the case. Like, it doesn't fucking matter.

1603
02:26:12.775 --> 02:26:13.275
Keegan,

1604
02:26:13.710 --> 02:26:19.490
it's been a fucking pleasure. Thank you for joining us. It's been a long time coming. It's been a lot of fun,

1605
02:26:20.430 --> 02:26:22.030
times to, like, really flu. So

1606
02:26:22.755 --> 02:26:24.755
Yeah. It was it was great to meet you.

1607
02:26:25.234 --> 02:26:30.295
It was great to have you back on the show, but it was great to meet you in Big Block Boom.

1608
02:26:31.100 --> 02:26:34.400
Do you have any any final thoughts for,

1609
02:26:37.180 --> 02:26:39.095
Zito, she's upset with me in the comments.

1610
02:26:39.814 --> 02:26:42.875
Do you have any final thoughts for the freaks before we end this?

1611
02:26:43.415 --> 02:26:49.920
Just keep building, man. Right? Build whatever you can. Like, it doesn't none of this happens without everyone. So

1612
02:26:51.979 --> 02:26:54.080
that's all I have to say. A 100%.

1613
02:26:54.635 --> 02:26:55.135
Zytoshi,

1614
02:26:55.515 --> 02:26:59.055
I agree with you. If someone's gonna, like, fuck around with me for

1615
02:26:59.835 --> 02:27:03.935
manipulating things, then they can go fuck themselves. I a 100% agree on that.

1616
02:27:05.750 --> 02:27:06.730
Future Paul,

1617
02:27:07.750 --> 02:27:17.564
what's up? But final thoughts before we end this. Everybody should read my, piece called Christianity for Bitcoiners, where I try to shill you on Christianity

1618
02:27:18.265 --> 02:27:19.805
from a Bitcoiner perspective.

1619
02:27:20.265 --> 02:27:23.005
Basically call everybody shitcoiners for believing

1620
02:27:23.420 --> 02:27:25.120
in more than one God.

1621
02:27:26.060 --> 02:27:28.319
I love it. So just check that out.

1622
02:27:29.020 --> 02:27:40.650
I'm looking forward to seeing Paul this weekend. We're gonna have a fantastic barbecue together. It's gonna be a good time. It's gonna be all open source licensed. All open source. Like, people can just compete with us,

1623
02:27:41.450 --> 02:27:42.910
not not commercially,

1624
02:27:44.091 --> 02:27:50.110
and it'll it'll be a fun time. I I appreciate all you freaks for joining us. This was fucking awesome.

1625
02:27:51.274 --> 02:27:55.135
Consider using your own Bitcoin node. Check out star 9labs.com.

1626
02:27:56.955 --> 02:27:58.575
If you haven't heard about The Verge,

1627
02:27:59.350 --> 02:28:00.070
it's a great,

1628
02:28:00.950 --> 02:28:01.450
publication.

1629
02:28:02.470 --> 02:28:04.090
Go follow both of these guys,

1630
02:28:04.630 --> 02:28:07.050
and, I love you all. Thank you for joining.

1631
02:28:07.915 --> 02:28:08.415
Peace.

1632
02:32:16.490 --> 02:32:21.070
Cheers, freaks. You're the fucking best. Thank you for staying till the end,

1633
02:32:21.825 --> 02:32:27.445
and, I love you all. We'll see you for rabbit hole recap on Thursday, and we'll see you for another fucking great,

1634
02:32:28.305 --> 02:32:31.840
Seal Dispatch rip on Tuesday. That's gonna be Ben Decarment

1635
02:32:32.220 --> 02:32:35.680
and Evan Kaludes. It's gonna be fucking dope. We're gonna talk about Taproot.

1636
02:32:36.300 --> 02:32:38.399
I'll fucking grill them on all the bullshit,

1637
02:32:39.155 --> 02:32:42.295
and it'll be a good time. Love you all. Have a good time. Peace.

CD17: bitcoin nodes and self hosting with @futurepaul and @proofofkeags

Listen On

Featured Episodes

Recent Episodes