Jan. 27, 2021
CD6: Lightning, Encryption, and Bitcoin Hardware with openoms and evankaloudis
Join Matt Odell as he sits down with openoms and evankaloudis
EPISODE: 0.0.6
BLOCK: 667811
PRICE: 3117 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Lightning, Encryption, and Bitcoin Hardware
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00:00 - Government investment in cryptocurrency
00:35 - Integration of cryptocurrencies in Miami
01:56 - The impact of mainstreaming Bitcoin
03:55 - The distinction between private and public Lightning Network
07:14 - The potential success of private Lightning Network
09:11 - The confusion surrounding Lightning Network
12:57 - The liquidity issues of Lightning Network
20:45 - The concerns about Coinbase and GBTC custody
35:48 - The removal of the Bitcoin white paper from websites
01:09:01 - The importance of encrypted messaging and the argument against banning it
01:28:49 - Discussion of open hardware and the benefits of GrapheneOS and CalyxOS
01:30:38 - The potential for open hardware and the introduction of the Bigo board
01:33:44 - Introduction to the B cord and its advantages over other chips
01:34:27 - Discussion about the high cost and difficulty of using open power systems
01:35:56 - The practicality and risks of Raspberry Pi nodes on the network
01:36:23 - The importance of air gapping and using a hardware wallet instead of a Raspberry Pi
01:40:12 - The need for hardware that is easy to verify and has strong privacy features
02:19:56 - Measuring profit in stats
02:20:12 - Channel closures and peer selection
02:21:35 - Fees for routing and raising fees
02:58:38 - KYC requirements for Bitcoin withdrawals
02:59:33 - Attacks on Bitcoin
03:00:31 - Appreciation for contributors to the Bitcoin space
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:35 PM
Duration: 11157.524
Channels: 1
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Welcome back to the show. You're putting government money into a very volatile
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cryptocurrency.
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You wanna explain why you're doing that?
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Sure. If I would have done it last year, I would have made 200 plus percent, so I would have looked like a genius.
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But we wanna be one of the most crypto forward, and technological
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cities in the country. So we're looking at, number 1, creating a a regulatory framework,
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that makes us the easiest place
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in the United States to do, business if you're doing it in cryptocurrencies.
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We're looking at laws from, Wyoming, Wisconsin, and New York, a regulatory environment. And we have a tremendous amount of interest in tech right now. So we're looking at a variety of things from being able to make payments in crypto,
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in Bitcoin in particular, being able to pay your taxes, being able to pay fees to the city. And then, yes, we are looking at the possibility of diversifying
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our investment portfolio
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and having and holding a percentage of our, investments in Bitcoin.
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Is this all part of your move to bring
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high-tech companies, big tech companies to Miami?
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I I know you've got good weather. I know you've got low taxes.
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Are you using a Bitcoin investment as a further inducement?
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It is. I I think, you know, the world is watching, and and the world is, always
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seeing all the things that cities do. If you're inviting,
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that's something that, cities are benefit benefiting from like like we are. I want other creative and the innovative class to come here and create high paying jobs for my residents.
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And, certainly, there is a an enormously large
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crypto and Bitcoin community,
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particularly,
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you know, on social media,
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and they are carefully watching as these assets
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become more and more mainstream.
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The more that, organizations like the city of Miami and others,
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mainstream Bitcoin, there's only one direction, that the prices are gonna go because we know that the supply of money is limited. It's only gonna go up.
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Cheers, freaks. It's your boy, Matt Odell, here with a bottle of mezcal
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and my 2 good friends, Open Arms and Evan Kaludis,
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for episode number 6 of Citadel Dispatch.
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I wanna welcome all the freaks that are here with us live,
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for our new Tuesday, Bitcoin Tuesday tradition.
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It's always a pleasure
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chilling with you guys. I know I enjoy it. I hope,
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the freaks joining us today are enjoying themselves, and I hope that OpenOps and Evan Kaloudis are enjoying themselves.
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So
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to the freaks listening in, that was Miami mayor Francis Suarez,
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pumping the corn for us on Fox Business.
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That's still pretty unreal to me.
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That was a little bit less than a week ago, and it already feels like old news.
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To the freaks joining us on the livestream, I have,
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the same price display I had on last week. On the top, we have the evil empire Coinbase Pro, which you can see has a large amount of liquidity.
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And then we have the good guys, Bisc, underneath,
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that's trucking through with their no KYC
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sat stacking.
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So what's up, guys? I
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I'm really excited
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to
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have this conversation. I think there's a lot of important things we can talk about here.
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Primarily, I mean, I wanna do a heavy focus on lightning, but I think we're gonna be all over the place. And I'm I'm pretty I I couldn't couldn't pick a better pair to do this with.
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The freaks might realize that Evan is is our first return guest here on Citadel Dispatch, only 6 episodes in. He was he was on the first episode.
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So, I mean, let's just start. I mean, Evan Evan doesn't need an introduction. He already had one. Thanks for being here, Evan. Yay.
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I'm well, I'm so pumped to be back. You know? It it's great. You know, Bitcoin Tuesday is becoming a great tradition. So,
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yeah, I'm just happy to get into it. Thanks for having me back, Ben.
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Fuck yes.
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Sorry for cutting you off there. I wasn't tripping into it. Time is money.
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And then we have Open Arms here. Open Arms is a fucking legend. He's a friend.
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He's been doing a lot in the Bitcoin hardware space,
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with his work with the Raspberry blitz project and join inbox,
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and he's been very focused on privacy.
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What's up, Open Arms?
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Hey. Hello. Very, very happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
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Being here live, you know, it's a big thing. I do I do a pop. Oops. I don't know how that went to say
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That was a great pop. That sounded great.
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Yeah. This Better than my week at pop.
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So the the thing is that middle of the lockdowns, you know, I managed to get this thing right from the factory in from a Portuguese island in Madeira
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last month end of December. So, you know, pretty,
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proud of that.
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So, you know, happy to share that
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with you guys. Otherwise, who wouldn't know me, I'm from
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20 Bitcoin generation of 2017.
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I've been,
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like, coming head first into
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into lightning basically, and
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then being focusing on on security, which is the privacy.
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I realized privacy is the huge part of security. So basically I I just went down on the angle,
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quite hard learning
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programming.
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I cannot say that it's not in the past. It's I'm I'm learning continuously, trying to publish as many things as I can as I learn them,
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and, make it available for others.
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And,
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yes,
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all the other privacy tools.
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And, yeah, we'd like to, you know, just throw us the questions.
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Yeah.
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Well, cheers.
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I,
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I wanted to start
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with this
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with this idea. Sorry. I got a little bit sidetracked.
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I wanted to start with Lightning.
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And there's been a lot of discussion lately with Lightning,
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with regard to
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private channels versus public channels.
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And I think, like, people are a bit confused here.
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I,
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people are confused on all sides,
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whether that's a a Bitcoiner or, like, a a Bitcoin cheerleader or a Bitcoin denier or, like, a lightning pragmatist.
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I feel like there's very few in the room that kind of
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see what's going on here, see, you know, how this is developing. And I think YouTube guys are are kind of on the front lines there,
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along with me to a degree.
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So
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I mean so
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my my feeling that I think people are missing
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is
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is is that we basically have
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2 different lightning networks
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that are forming, and there's, like it's almost 2 separate theses.
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Like, we we have this private
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channel
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network that is appears to be emerging in the background, that that appears to be emerging, you know, with the strikes of the world
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and and, like, all the major exchanges, Bitfinex, you know, maybe Coinbase eventually in, like, 5 years, who the fuck knows with them, but like Kraken, Bitstamp,
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where they have these massive private channels to basically allow traders to they don't have it yet, but this idea that they have these massive private channels that allow traders to move between their platforms,
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for low fees,
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pretty much instantly.
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Low fee is very quick,
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and they don't actually go through any routing notes or anything. They're completely that's completely
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unaffected by the public
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Lightning Network. The the Lightning Network that is self sovereign Bitcoin user that never interacts with exchanges might might
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deal with,
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It has a completely different trade off balance. It's a completely different product. It's a completely different network, and I almost
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see that as, like, a guarantee. Like, I think
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that technology makes a lot of sense to me. You have, like, these semi trusted relationships between exchanges.
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They're using this trust minimized protocol to balance out their their transfers between themselves. I think that could be successful while the
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broader Lightning Network, the public Lightning Network, the self sovereign Lightning Network that someone like us would connect to to make a p to p payment
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could could fail, and and the private lightning network could be a success.
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I was curious what your thoughts are here.
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I I guess, let's start with Evan.
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Yeah. Sure thing. So
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as you guys know, there's a pretty big distinction between having a public channel and a private channel.
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And, right now, I think the biggest difference is,
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between, you know, finding your routes and,
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you know,
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what the what the goal of that channel exactly is nowadays.
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So as far as it goes, like, when you're running a node, you really need to keep in mind, like, what are you trying to optimize for at the moment.
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So are you trying to,
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you know, make these transactions
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and have them you know, your personal transactions and have them as private as possible, have them only pertaining to the parties,
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you know, that that need to know about it,
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or are you trying to run, like, a bigger operation? Are are you trying to,
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you know,
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profit off of being a man in the middle of sorts
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and routing
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payments from hop a to hop b and making money off the fees. So
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depending on, you know, what what your
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goal is in running that lightning node, you're definitely gonna have a different structure of how your channels are laid out and whether they're public or private.
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You know, furthermore, you gotta be strategic
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in
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who you're opening channels with and,
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you know, who those county who's who those counterparties are and, furthermore, like, you know, the quality of that liquidity. Like,
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you know, not all not every channel is gonna,
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you know, have the same value to you. It's gonna depend a lot about, like, your flows,
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what your kind of usage of the network is. Is it personal use? Or, what are if you're a service, what your users are using.
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There's, like, a whole lot of nuance to that.
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And then furthermore,
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we have
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to take into consideration,
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like, how,
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pathfinding is done.
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Now
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is
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and, like, the present system pretty much, like, your node
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is, like,
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pulling the graph of all the lightning nodes and
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asking each one, like, who they have a connection to and sort of, like, calculating
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itself on the fly.
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And as the protocol develops and matures, there's gonna be, like,
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more advanced methods of doing that pathfinding.
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You're gonna be able to, like, have a third party do that pathfinding for you. You're gonna,
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you know, there's gonna be new methods of making payments, like, rendezvous
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payments where you can make a payment to someone without even knowing,
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to Evan. I love you. I love you, Evan, but I think this is the issue why this conversation
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never it never hits like, I I try and
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the goal with Citadel dispatch is to try and make it more actionable. Right? And,
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I'm excited about all these different things that we're gonna see with lightning, but the key I wanna make here is this distinction.
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Okay. Right? This distinction that
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we've we've heard this argument with Liquid.
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Right? With this argument with Liquid, by Blockstream, the side chain, this federated side chain that the main use case is for traders,
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which is not us. And the 3 of us, it's we're not the use case for liquid. That traders are gonna trade between exchanges,
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to do arbitrage and shit, and time matters and fees matter,
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for those people. They want it to be fucking instant.
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And that's why Liquid has their one minute confirmation times. Mhmm.
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Private
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lightning network usage,
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these massive private channels that are going between exchanges,
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is that use case but better? Am I right or am I wrong?
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I don't know exactly. It's gonna
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I could see a future where
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LN actually
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is the p to p network that we're using personally amongst the plebs,
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And, you know, l n could potentially,
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also be that pipe between the exchanges, but, you know, I think there's also gonna be a battle there between
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liquid. Because, like, let's say, for example, you have, like, an arbitrage trader. Right? And they have enough liquidity on the exchange.
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They might find an arbitrage opportunity, right,
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and end up emptying out, like, the pipe to that you have between those two exchanges,
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like, to to make the the maximum return on their arbitrage. So, like, l n could potentially,
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see some complexities there
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where, you know, the big dogs are, like, emptying out those pipes. It becomes a different ballgame,
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though, when there's multiple routes between the exchanges, though, and that's where things get really complex.
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So to say that things are gonna go definitively one way or another right now
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is really hard to say. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see that play out over the next few years. I mean, look. We're in the business of taking away the nuance and making definitive concise claims,
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because that's what gets engagement. But, also, I think that's what's productive.
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But I mean, I from my perspective, like, I don't think
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that,
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and obviously, none of us have a crystal ball, so we're making predictions. Right? But I I don't think this idea of, like, multiple chat like, multiple routes between exchanges will be a reality. I think, you know, if you're Bitfinex,
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you're just gonna
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have, you know, a a $50,000,000,
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a $100,000,000
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channel,
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with with your, you know, the other large exchanges, and you'll have it direct with them. You won't have any routing nodes in your way.
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You won't have any fees besides just you and that
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other exchange, so you guys can agree to just no
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fees. And you have, like, a semi trusted relationship already.
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So why would you ever end up going through a routing node? That's different than if they offer withdrawals.
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That I think that's a separate product. Like, I see exchanges offering these private lightning for traders before they offer actual lightning withdrawals. I think it's a completely different use case. And then I I see people,
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like our friend Grubles on Twitter talking about the negative of lightning being the liquidity issues.
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I don't
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like, liquid has those same issues. Like, am I wrong open arms? Like, how, like, how like, if I wanna send
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if if an exchange needs to send 20 Bitcoin on liquid to another exchange, like, they need to have 20 Bitcoin in liquid pegged in already.
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Yes. And then I mean, now we are speaking about actionable things. You know, we speak about exchanges, which I'm not very interested in. But in any way,
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the big biggest difference between liquid and lightning that that
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lightning channel,
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by the way it can be based on liquid as well, it is a payment channel. So the
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the traffic is bidirectional
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and
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the
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whereas
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with liquid, you're just showing the things back and forth
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The
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with Bitcoin main base
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they are slightly quicker and
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cheaper.
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So
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and but still, it would be kind of the instead of the end of the day settlement or end of every hour settlement, you you will use liquid instead of instead of, the base.
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I mean Right? But for lightning, you would you would just throw things
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around
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with the speed of lightning. Right? So as as traders move from here to their
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arbitraging that digital opportunities where, you know, they make a set there, another set of sheet there,
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and and that as you say there will be no routing nodes in between
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the exchanges, obviously, and every, like, major nerd
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will have direct
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channels between them where the transaction is free and
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quick and also reliable.
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Whereas
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there are users so so from the point of view of the user, why would I want to why would someone want to use a a private channel?
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Well, it's
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for, basically,
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privacy reasons
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that
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you have
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if you have a private channel only,
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you don't want to be routing, you know, because
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you are exposing yourself to not only privacy risk, but, you know, people for
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people are forwarding HDRCs on you, they fail,
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the channel gets forced closed, you get incurred costs, and there is a risk involved with that.
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Risk of not losing the money from the channel, but
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to lose the price of the on chain on chain settlement which can be high just like nowadays.
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You open a private channel or even better, your exchange, let it be Stripe, for example, the the biggest example,
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opens a private channel to you.
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And what you do,
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you are doing your DCA, you are stacking sets so to say. Okay. So,
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or every week you you you buy you
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know,
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you do. And then
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you also, you know, pay your coffee or or
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or, you know, go for
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a meet up with friends and share the cost of the meal or things like that. So
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but the
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direction of flow of the of the sets is is is two way, but you don't need routing. And then when you have, you know, £2,000
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verse or $2,000
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verse built up on
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that
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channel, so it's always it's almost full.
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And I don't even want to speak in fiat. You have like 2,000,000 built up 2,000,000 sets built up on the channel, so it's almost full because it's it's it's a limited size because it's only us 33,000,000
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which the exchange opened to you, you would just swap it out. Swap it out to cold storage.
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Swap it out with a with a 3rd party provider
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with who is providing you great privacy because there is no on chain
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kind of where that UTSO came from, which then goes into your core storage.
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Or you can, you know, put this through if you can.
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You're breaking up a little bit over there, open ops, just for whatever it's worth.
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I don't know if you can do anything on your side, but we're willing to deal with it because we appreciate you so much. But I just wanted you to know that. I mean, I I think you kind of
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you got lost in the weeds a little bit again on me.
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This is what, you know, this is kind of what I'm saying. Like, I don't
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I wanted to you hit, like, 2 point you hit multiple points there. And and and my point is is that Lightning could be a massive success
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on the private exchange side
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just as private channels,
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and that means absolutely shit all for the average user,
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if they're not a trader.
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And that's fine. It is what it is. It's just a different,
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use case. A completely different separate use case. And so when someone says, like, oh, but there's really these massive private channels,
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which I am guilty of as well. I sent out a tweet. I was like massive private channels between exchanges.
292
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That doesn't mean that it has any effect. It's completely unrelated really to the public lightning network.
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In this respect, those private channels, not all private channels. Some private channels matter, but not not those.
294
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Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I mean,
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there's a complete difference as far as, you know, the the 2
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go, really. I
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mean, we have complete insight into the public channels, and they all get graphed on Graph Explorers like 1ML. And,
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you know, all the private channels are pretty much a black hole until, you know, you get some insight
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into 1 by using it or getting, like, routing hints from someone.
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So it's hard to even,
301
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you know, quantify what's going on there or really get an insight. We can only make educated guess
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as to what that volume looks like.
303
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And then the other thing is I I saw
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open. We appreciate you backing out and coming back in. Hopefully, that helped.
305
00:21:28.925 --> 00:21:34.705
You know, the other the other thing here is, you know, Stefan we have Stefan Lavera in the comments section.
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Appreciate all of you in the comments,
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the live comments. The show wouldn't be the same without you. Saying liquid doesn't have quite the same issues in my opinion.
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We have 6102
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saying that liquid has a different security model. Yeah. Absolutely.
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It does. And
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but to exchanges, I think, you know, some of those issues I think some of the issues are similar.
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I think the liquidity issue is something that,
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liquid proponents,
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you know, aren't
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it's not as effective argument as they think it is, because I do think the liquidity issue is a issue on on
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on liquid,
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you know,
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in these larger situations
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where you're sending large amounts.
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The other thing is,
321
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I mean, with liquid, you have different risk. Right? You have this risk that you're trusting this multisig,
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this federated multisig.
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Those those you know, they're they're running on HSMs, but it's also hot just like with with Lightning. But with Lightning, you know,
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a a Lightning relationship can emerge between Strike and Cash App,
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without any
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conversation with any other party. They can just simply
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use the lightning protocol right now to create a trust minimized payment channel between the 2 of them, not tell anybody about it except traders that wanna switch between the platforms, and they're ready to go. They don't have any third parties that are involved in that process. And I think
328
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that alone, that reduced regulatory risk, that reduced third party risk for these exchanges
329
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makes it a night and day improvement over over using liquid in that situation. And maybe liquid made more sense for these last 3 years, you know, as, like, a stop gap while lightning got ready and got got more prepared.
330
00:23:18.425 --> 00:23:24.110
But, like, we didn't have fees, and and it it they they missed their they missed their opportunity.
331
00:23:28.250 --> 00:23:36.445
Yeah. I mean, that's a huge part of the the equation too. I mean, you're doing on chain transactions to get into liquid to begin with. So in that regard,
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they're
333
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very similar, I would say. 6102 is asking me why do I care about exchange liquidity and inter exchange settlement. That's the point. I don't.
334
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Exactly. And but it's happening,
335
00:23:46.945 --> 00:23:55.045
but it's just unrelated. And just it's something that's happening. What do you mean? People couldn't you it doesn't everything doesn't have to be, like, bullish for, you know, average Bitcoin users.
336
00:23:55.570 --> 00:24:00.870
But I I think it is important in a lot of ways. Like, think about it. Like, the price differences on exchanges.
337
00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:02.390
Right? Like,
338
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the the the swings right there
339
00:24:05.285 --> 00:24:07.945
can create a lot of volatility. Once you're able
340
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to go from one exchange to another, right, and it doesn't take, like, an hour of doing the trade and waiting for blocks to confirm, and it just, like, happens in a couple of minutes, if not seconds,
341
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you know, you're gonna get much more price stability.
342
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So I think to the greater ecosystem,
343
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it is pretty important. I mean, maybe the average user doesn't exactly care about the average exchanges flows, but it's gonna have a positive effect if you can make that jump
344
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as far as arbitrage goes, a quicker process, and I think we'll all benefit.
345
00:24:40.135 --> 00:24:42.235
Yeah. It it contributes to better price stability
346
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between between jurisdictions
347
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and,
348
00:24:45.890 --> 00:24:48.230
yeah, I mean, that that's that's about it, really.
349
00:24:49.090 --> 00:24:51.350
But it only it only really helps
350
00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.670
if if you have, like, a tether or something on the opposite side.
351
00:24:58.024 --> 00:25:02.845
Like, I I feel like, you know, the the the arbitrage the arbitrage
352
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friction
353
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is not, you know, the 10 minute Bitcoin confirmation times,
354
00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:17.405
for transferring Bitcoin between the exchange. I mean, it is to a degree, but the the Fiat transfer is harder. Anyway, we're getting into the nuances here.
355
00:25:18.265 --> 00:25:28.539
I'm not sure if it really matters. What? There are a lot of nuances with the l n. I mean, you know, how deep into the weeds do you wanna get, Matt? I mean, if we can go in, you explain
356
00:25:28.840 --> 00:25:33.305
onion routing, like, we can get really, really nuanced as far as,
357
00:25:33.865 --> 00:25:39.965
you know, liquidity, privacy, all these things go. So Okay. Stefan's coming in hard. It matters, guys.
358
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.820
I'm not saying it doesn't matter. It's it's good to have price you know,
359
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.980
better price discovery across the world is what we want ultimately.
360
00:25:50.685 --> 00:25:54.385
We want the world to be priced in SaaS, and you're not gonna get that without better infrastructure.
361
00:25:55.325 --> 00:25:55.825
Yep.
362
00:25:56.205 --> 00:25:58.625
Will it allow us to to store
363
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.700
less bits going on exchanges overall?
364
00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:05.220
So if it can flow better, then we have you know, less is enough
365
00:26:05.520 --> 00:26:07.220
so people can trade with less,
366
00:26:08.595 --> 00:26:09.735
which is the trend
367
00:26:10.275 --> 00:26:11.175
luckily nowadays.
368
00:26:13.475 --> 00:26:17.669
One of my favorites is is, you know, like, Adam Bak is, like, a fucking
369
00:26:17.970 --> 00:26:19.030
crypto legend
370
00:26:19.490 --> 00:26:19.990
cryptographer
371
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legend,
372
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and, like, he loves arbitrage.
373
00:26:24.185 --> 00:26:34.639
I don't know why. He's, like, he's, like, constantly tweeting about how he's, like, sent you know, he he he used an arbitrage opportunity to make a little spread. I just I don't know. Random.
374
00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:37.919
He's manipulating market, is he?
375
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:39.740
Yeah. I I so so
376
00:26:40.485 --> 00:26:44.265
yeah. Let's jump into that. Yeah. You said okay. So first of all,
377
00:26:47.765 --> 00:26:48.325
we saw
378
00:26:48.909 --> 00:26:54.610
you know, this is a little bit not Bitcoin, but fuck it. We saw the whole GameStop thing, you know,
379
00:26:55.149 --> 00:26:56.289
go crazy today,
380
00:26:57.255 --> 00:26:59.995
with Reddit traders pushing GameStop price up.
381
00:27:00.455 --> 00:27:01.355
In my opinion,
382
00:27:02.375 --> 00:27:04.955
in a true free market, there's no such thing as manipulation.
383
00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:06.720
Agree or disagree?
384
00:27:07.100 --> 00:27:08.480
Start with you, Evan.
385
00:27:12.934 --> 00:27:17.115
I I I agree in one way in one sense of it.
386
00:27:17.975 --> 00:27:18.875
I would say,
387
00:27:19.575 --> 00:27:20.634
generally speaking,
388
00:27:22.870 --> 00:27:24.570
you know, all trades really
389
00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:30.745
happen with some information asymmetry. Right? Like, no having some sort of inside knowledge of what's going on.
390
00:27:31.145 --> 00:27:33.245
Otherwise, you're just gambling, right, or,
391
00:27:33.625 --> 00:27:37.165
you know, just just being a a guess as to where things are gonna go.
392
00:27:38.345 --> 00:27:40.105
What's really interesting about,
393
00:27:41.419 --> 00:27:44.159
this GameStop thing is just, like, how it's coordinated
394
00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:50.000
and how, like, you know, just these average traders on and what is it? Wall Street Bets on Reddit
395
00:27:50.445 --> 00:27:52.225
have coordinated such a big thing
396
00:27:52.684 --> 00:27:53.184
that's,
397
00:27:53.565 --> 00:27:54.705
like, really crushing
398
00:27:55.164 --> 00:27:56.625
so many hedge funds.
399
00:27:57.404 --> 00:28:06.720
Mhmm. It's like it's gonna has so much, like, potential to, like, just wreck this industry. Like, hedge funds can, like, end up getting wrecked
400
00:28:07.195 --> 00:28:09.375
just by some, like, Internet posters.
401
00:28:09.995 --> 00:28:14.655
Like, I I think it's gonna be really interesting to see the repercussions of this thing play out.
402
00:28:15.080 --> 00:28:19.800
It's sort of nuts when you think about it. Well, it's not just that because, I mean, there's an there's a
403
00:28:20.600 --> 00:28:24.300
you know, Robinhood the way Robinhood makes their money is they sell their flows,
404
00:28:25.155 --> 00:28:26.455
to other hedge funds.
405
00:28:27.875 --> 00:28:29.495
So it's not just Redditors,
406
00:28:30.355 --> 00:28:31.255
that are wrecking
407
00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:39.610
opposing short selling hedge funds. It's also the hedge funds that are using your editors flow to to front run them
408
00:28:39.965 --> 00:28:41.665
and blow them up at the same time.
409
00:28:43.725 --> 00:28:50.090
Yeah. But my point is all is fair all is fair and love war and and free markets. Like, the the world that we're going to,
410
00:28:50.789 --> 00:28:54.649
you know, in a proper free market, in a proper place where you can trade,
411
00:28:55.485 --> 00:28:58.945
privately without KYC, globally without friction,
412
00:29:00.284 --> 00:29:05.710
where, you know, the EMH proponents win and every little thing is priced in appropriately.
413
00:29:06.170 --> 00:29:09.150
There's no such thing as insider trading. There's no such thing as manipulation.
414
00:29:09.475 --> 00:29:13.495
It is a profit opportunity that is taken, and it shows itself on the market.
415
00:29:14.115 --> 00:29:21.670
Yeah. This thing is not going away, and it's gonna only increase over time. It's gonna get nuttier, and it's something you're not gonna be able to regulate away.
416
00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:32.775
So, you know, if you block one venue for this to happen on, you know, so some is gonna appear in in another. You know? And as we're seeing, like, these stocks become, like,
417
00:29:33.770 --> 00:29:34.429
you know,
418
00:29:34.730 --> 00:29:35.230
tokenized,
419
00:29:36.330 --> 00:29:42.750
you know, it's it's gonna be really hard to to work around this. So And Open Arms covered this today. He's you know, he mentioned,
420
00:29:43.674 --> 00:29:45.615
on Twitter, you mentioned in in the Netherlands,
421
00:29:46.635 --> 00:29:49.695
the KYC is getting worse particularly for Bitstamp users.
422
00:29:50.395 --> 00:29:59.760
And you said that they should, you you know, people should use BISK and people should use HODL HODL. I mean, Open Arms, like, what do you have to say to the people who would tell you that without KYC,
423
00:30:01.135 --> 00:30:07.235
Bosch Trading is is very easy to do, and insider trading is very easy to do, and market manipulation is very easy to do.
424
00:30:10.350 --> 00:30:10.850
Well
425
00:30:11.549 --> 00:30:14.610
and and it is difficult with k y c, you mean?
426
00:30:15.070 --> 00:30:27.075
I'm saying, you know, k y c is what stops those things from happening, they would say. Am I am I wrong? Like, that's, like, without KYC, if you don't know who the market participants are, like, how do you enforce any of this stuff?
427
00:30:30.340 --> 00:30:34.039
Well, you know, I tried gambling. I I didn't try,
428
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:39.545
trading to be honest. You know? The this I mean, looking at the stock market as as well, it it looks like the end of 2017
429
00:30:39.845 --> 00:30:42.505
in in crypto, you know, in quotes.
430
00:30:45.205 --> 00:30:56.695
You know, that that that's the peak. I mean, KYC, I mean, what do we want to achieve here? I mean, you want to KYC the trailers? I mean, let it be. But to No. For me to see this
431
00:30:57.355 --> 00:31:07.840
no KYC to the freaks open on. Yeah. No. That's what I want you to do. No. Yeah. Absolutely, sir. Bisk liquidity. Like, I'm looking at the numbers right now and and those are rookie numbers. We gotta pump them up.
432
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.720
Yeah. But what I think that
433
00:31:11.855 --> 00:31:18.275
KYC is outright harmful for people who just want to convert one thing to another. Right? There is there is no point
434
00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:20.580
to to buy something.
435
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:27.780
Like I just found out a couple of days ago that if I need to now after Brexit from the UK, I need to send the package to the EU,
436
00:31:29.225 --> 00:31:29.665
it's
437
00:31:30.105 --> 00:31:33.885
they need to know the passport number of the person who actually imports
438
00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:36.845
the the even a gift. Right? What?
439
00:31:37.530 --> 00:31:45.390
Well, I mean this is the same stupidity. Right? If I if I if I send you money and want to take Bitcoin out, why would you need to know why who I am, you know?
440
00:31:46.885 --> 00:31:48.745
What is the purpose of that? There is no
441
00:31:49.125 --> 00:31:53.225
it's not for to stop wash trading, but I'm not going back ever again.
442
00:31:54.485 --> 00:31:54.985
So
443
00:31:56.560 --> 00:32:02.100
absolutely, I mean the way is as listed in that in that tweet there is the
444
00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:03.620
non custodial
445
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.900
k y c
446
00:32:05.265 --> 00:32:19.970
platforms like BISK, which is, you know, the absolute best. You need to you need to go trade there and, you know, even if you if you are trading with friends or, like, friends who you don't trust that much, you can use their system to
447
00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:27.345
to make sure everything goes as planned. And then hold the order is quite the same. I mean, it takes a bit more,
448
00:32:28.365 --> 00:32:29.985
it's it's more centralized
449
00:32:30.765 --> 00:32:31.905
and takes
450
00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:34.050
more to get used
451
00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:37.650
to their system, but it it it's it's a proper escrow system.
452
00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:42.615
It it is quite nice as well. But then, you know, sell things, work for Bitcoin,
453
00:32:43.075 --> 00:32:44.375
earn it, and
454
00:32:44.995 --> 00:32:46.615
obviously mine it. Right?
455
00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:50.280
Then you are paying for electricity, getting bitcoin.
456
00:32:51.620 --> 00:32:56.554
And these are the way for the small people. I mean, I'm not in the world of, you know,
457
00:32:57.654 --> 00:32:58.394
big traders.
458
00:32:59.254 --> 00:33:01.595
I I I leave that to Adam Beck.
459
00:33:03.510 --> 00:33:04.570
Our pro trader.
460
00:33:05.030 --> 00:33:05.530
Yeah.
461
00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:15.275
I, I, you know, I hate saying this, but but, to the freaks out there, consider liking, subscribing, sharing. It goes a long way. We appreciate you.
462
00:33:16.455 --> 00:33:18.235
Don't get used to me saying that because
463
00:33:18.775 --> 00:33:21.595
it had to vomit in my mouth a little bit while I say it.
464
00:33:23.100 --> 00:33:27.520
I look. I I think, you know, I'm I'm a weirdo a little bit because
465
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:32.000
I I guess I'm I'm known for, you know, trying to increase
466
00:33:33.165 --> 00:33:33.665
solid,
467
00:33:34.044 --> 00:33:36.304
you know, dollar cost averaging, conservative,
468
00:33:36.684 --> 00:33:37.825
no k y c,
469
00:33:38.845 --> 00:33:40.065
saving for the future,
470
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.740
you know, long you know, load time preference thinking.
471
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.505
But at the same time, I fucking love gambling, and I I
472
00:33:48.065 --> 00:33:54.520
and I you know, the concept of trading, I love the concept of trading even though I know that I would get wrecked and most people get wrecked,
473
00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:56.300
if they do it,
474
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:57.500
because
475
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.380
and this is why I love the concept of of sat stacking, just in general, just investing,
476
00:34:03.265 --> 00:34:12.710
or saving for your future. It's skin in the game. This idea of skin in the game, like, we live in a world where engagement numbers are easy to to fake,
477
00:34:13.330 --> 00:34:15.270
where, like, every metric is fakable.
478
00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:19.830
It's like a post truth world people say. But at the end of the day,
479
00:34:20.565 --> 00:34:25.464
if if you put your money where your mouth is, and now we have actually good money to do that with SATS,
480
00:34:27.590 --> 00:34:34.090
There's a there's a winner and there's a loser. There's someone that was right and someone that was wrong. We don't have to argue for years and,
481
00:34:34.445 --> 00:34:36.705
you know, endlessly and come to no conclusion.
482
00:34:37.645 --> 00:34:47.890
You know, like, if if you decided to hold ETH at the top of the 2017 bubble instead of Bitcoin, you have way less Sats today. And that is definitive, it is objective,
483
00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:50.645
and there's there's a beauty to it.
484
00:34:53.285 --> 00:34:56.985
Well, there is ETH and there is USD and, you know, British pound and euros.
485
00:34:58.950 --> 00:35:02.490
And my favorite one now is the Chrysler building, which keeps going down in Bitcoin value.
486
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:05.690
So
487
00:35:06.145 --> 00:35:07.445
on another hot topic,
488
00:35:08.225 --> 00:35:14.725
that no one seems to be talking about, I'm gonna switch it again. And by the way, when we leave topics, we'll come back to those topics. I just wanna keep the ball rolling.
489
00:35:15.430 --> 00:35:17.130
Like like to have fun with this,
490
00:35:17.430 --> 00:35:32.865
and keep hitting us with you hit us with questions and stuff in the chat. You know, maybe we don't hit it right away, but we we we will come back to it if we can. So just keep hitting us with stuff in the chat. What? I saw some Zeus questions. We'll circle back to those. Yeah. 100% we'll circle back to Zeus. I love Zeus.
491
00:35:33.589 --> 00:35:38.970
I love that we finally got Tor integrated. Fuck yes. Super excited, but we'll get back to that. Before then,
492
00:35:39.750 --> 00:35:40.810
right now, Coinbase,
493
00:35:41.155 --> 00:35:44.615
the evil empire, they're on the top of the ticker if you're watching the livestream,
494
00:35:45.795 --> 00:35:47.175
trading at about $32,000
495
00:35:47.714 --> 00:35:49.970
right now. Largest exchange in the world,
496
00:35:50.910 --> 00:35:59.165
maybe not by volume because we go back to to fakable metrics and, you know, you can fake those metrics especially if you don't have KYC and you do wash trading,
497
00:35:59.785 --> 00:36:02.045
which is fine by me, you know, all is fair.
498
00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:07.430
Coinbase is the largest exchange in the world by number of Bitcoin they hold. That's an objective measurement.
499
00:36:07.730 --> 00:36:09.990
We know they have about 800,000 Bitcoin.
500
00:36:10.370 --> 00:36:11.990
What isn't talked about
501
00:36:12.515 --> 00:36:15.015
is their custody side, which is way
502
00:36:15.395 --> 00:36:17.735
larger than that. We know that GBTC,
503
00:36:18.515 --> 00:36:20.595
the fake ETF that is traded,
504
00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:22.230
and run by Grayscale,
505
00:36:23.410 --> 00:36:27.670
Digital Currency Group, which is Barry Silbert's company, the parent company of CoinDesk,
506
00:36:28.905 --> 00:36:30.285
has over 650,000
507
00:36:30.745 --> 00:36:34.445
Bitcoin. And guess who they custody it with? They custody it with
508
00:36:34.825 --> 00:36:41.300
Coinbase. And And no one really talks about this. When you when you share those exchange balance charts that are going down,
509
00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:50.275
they don't include that custody number. And I'm guilty of this too. I've I've I've posted that glass note chart saying, look how bullish this is. All the coins are leaving exchanges.
510
00:36:51.934 --> 00:36:55.800
They're leaving exchanges and a lot of them are going into regulated custodians,
511
00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:58.360
the number one being fucking Coinbase.
512
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.480
So,
513
00:37:00.555 --> 00:37:04.095
to the freaks out there that may be concerned about this, you know, we have
514
00:37:04.635 --> 00:37:05.135
over,
515
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.780
we we have over we're like 1 and a half 1000000 Bitcoin
516
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:12.460
at least
517
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:14.619
are being custody by Coinbase.
518
00:37:15.985 --> 00:37:18.005
Why or why not should this be a concern?
519
00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:24.760
We'll start with Evan.
520
00:37:28.020 --> 00:37:28.520
Well,
521
00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:29.960
on one hand,
522
00:37:31.185 --> 00:37:37.685
you know, any centralized party having a lot of share over something is really not good for the genie of a coin. Right?
523
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:42.290
However, we don't have the same concerns that we would have,
524
00:37:42.910 --> 00:37:45.730
with, say, a coin that's based on staking
525
00:37:46.350 --> 00:37:46.850
and
526
00:37:47.785 --> 00:37:58.780
and this shareholder be having, like, such a heavy weight as far as, like, voting on different features or whatnot goes. So on one hand, you'd like to see,
527
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:07.295
them to be custodying less, but our network doesn't have the same issues that some of these new tokens and new schemes,
528
00:38:08.155 --> 00:38:10.655
do as far as the POS stuff goes.
529
00:38:11.275 --> 00:38:13.375
So it's a bit of a mixed bag, obviously,
530
00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:22.490
but, you know, we just gotta keep encouraging people to, you know, take custody whenever possible. And, you know,
531
00:38:22.815 --> 00:38:24.115
the biggest part of this
532
00:38:24.575 --> 00:38:25.235
is education.
533
00:38:25.855 --> 00:38:29.635
Obviously, you know, there's gonna be some people who do want a custodian,
534
00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:37.530
but, like, you know, the the people that are listening to the show obviously are gonna be taking control of their keys. Not your keys. Not your coin, etcetera.
535
00:38:39.695 --> 00:38:44.835
Yeah. Yeah. Not so not your keys, not your coins, and not your nodes, not your rules.
536
00:38:45.295 --> 00:38:47.950
You know, they can fork away. They can
537
00:38:48.270 --> 00:38:48.770
manipulate
538
00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:52.609
the fork as well as as we have seen that happening.
539
00:38:53.790 --> 00:38:54.290
Also,
540
00:38:55.045 --> 00:38:59.385
I mean, there are a couple of properties of Bitcoin. I mean, it depends which one,
541
00:39:00.005 --> 00:39:02.025
people came for. I mean, everyone
542
00:39:02.450 --> 00:39:05.750
likes like number go up. Okay? That happens on Coinbase as
543
00:39:06.130 --> 00:39:09.670
well, except when Bitcoin cash pumps rather instead.
544
00:39:10.210 --> 00:39:10.710
Mhmm.
545
00:39:11.935 --> 00:39:16.515
Mhmm. But the Bitcoin which you hold in an on an exchange is not unconfiscatable,
546
00:39:17.295 --> 00:39:27.950
and it is not censorship resistance. And if you came for that properties, then you have nothing to do with exchanges, and you should just never even touch any cost to your
547
00:39:28.515 --> 00:39:29.575
exchange wallet
548
00:39:30.275 --> 00:39:33.654
or however you call it, or hosted once either.
549
00:39:34.515 --> 00:39:37.095
Yeah. And I think, like, the big problem that
550
00:39:37.620 --> 00:39:43.000
we face, I think it's not even just with Bitcoin, but I think in general, our society is like people
551
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:45.400
really just value convenience
552
00:39:46.115 --> 00:39:48.135
so much more than, like, you know,
553
00:39:48.675 --> 00:39:53.015
sovereignty or privacy. And I I think we all struggle with that. You know, like,
554
00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:57.620
we we're all still carrying a cell phone around on our day to day. Right?
555
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.700
But the thing is with Bitcoin,
556
00:40:00.195 --> 00:40:07.575
the Google there. Yeah. Yeah. The the ease yeah. The the ease of being able to to take control of it
557
00:40:08.035 --> 00:40:09.095
is so low
558
00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:13.770
that you should consider it. You know? And, like, you know, some something
559
00:40:14.470 --> 00:40:14.970
like
560
00:40:15.430 --> 00:40:23.265
like BISK too, right, where you don't have to deal with that KYC. Like, people are still going to the big exchanges because they have the convenience
561
00:40:24.045 --> 00:40:25.905
of their buyers being so so,
562
00:40:26.685 --> 00:40:30.980
so easy, you know, not having to worry about going through all these different payment methods.
563
00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:34.180
But, you know, you're really not gonna regret
564
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:41.154
have these regrets about using these, like, KYC places or keeping your stuff into custody until it's too late,
565
00:40:41.454 --> 00:40:41.954
until
566
00:40:42.255 --> 00:40:47.474
that information is used against you, until you sign into the exchange and they say you can't access
567
00:40:48.080 --> 00:40:52.180
your coins until you go to your bank and they say you can't withdraw your money.
568
00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:55.060
So, you know, it it's hard to
569
00:40:55.915 --> 00:40:56.815
to relay
570
00:40:57.595 --> 00:41:00.335
the the problems and the risk to people
571
00:41:00.955 --> 00:41:06.140
if if they haven't experienced them firsthand. You know? Especially if they're in, like, a western country
572
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.860
that that hasn't undergone stuff like,
573
00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:11.580
you know, like like haircuts to their deposits
574
00:41:12.395 --> 00:41:13.935
or or had issues
575
00:41:14.395 --> 00:41:17.375
where with the laws pertaining to Bitcoin have changed.
576
00:41:17.994 --> 00:41:18.494
So,
577
00:41:19.275 --> 00:41:20.015
you know,
578
00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:23.260
like I said, education is is a huge part of
579
00:41:23.560 --> 00:41:24.359
it. And Yeah. I mean
580
00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:30.595
yeah. Go ahead. To sum it up, I mean, I I think both, I think all of us agree here
581
00:41:30.975 --> 00:41:31.215
that,
582
00:41:32.095 --> 00:41:36.115
if if you have if you have your your Bitcoin with Coinbase or GBTC
583
00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:37.820
or Robinhood,
584
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:43.260
or on any exchange, you know, ours the sponsor of of Tales from the Crypt,
585
00:41:43.640 --> 00:41:44.380
Cash App,
586
00:41:45.415 --> 00:41:47.595
it you don't own Bitcoin. You own an IOU,
587
00:41:48.055 --> 00:41:48.555
and,
588
00:41:49.015 --> 00:41:53.115
you'll learn very quickly in a bad situation that that Bitcoin is not yours.
589
00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:56.369
And you're you're missing out because Bitcoin gives you the ability
590
00:41:56.829 --> 00:41:59.329
to actually hold your own wealth and control your own wealth,
591
00:41:59.950 --> 00:42:07.125
and to maintain your sovereignty, and and you should exert that that opt that option to you. You you should practice that option, and if you don't,
592
00:42:07.665 --> 00:42:11.560
I that's fine. You know, that option is is is open to you, but,
593
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.100
I think you're being a chump if you do that.
594
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:17.580
As as far as Coinbase is concerned,
595
00:42:18.045 --> 00:42:22.225
I don't think it's really that much of a threat for Bitcoin. At the end of the day, does it really matter
596
00:42:23.005 --> 00:42:45.345
if if Barry Silbert is self custodying versus Coinbase? It's probably the same threat model, right, with the US government? Oh, yeah. Talking about the government for sure. I mean, you think It's the same idea. Right? It's like, whatever. Stand up for you if uncle Sam comes knocking? No fucking way. So What's the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen there is, like, they I guess they could market sell those Bitcoin, but they'd be idiots.
597
00:42:46.910 --> 00:42:52.130
Yep. Or I I guess it's a honeypot where you you could have, like, a single hacker could could
598
00:42:52.565 --> 00:42:56.265
fuck them. But I I think at this point, they've learned their lesson. They're professionals.
599
00:42:57.285 --> 00:42:58.025
They probably
600
00:42:58.325 --> 00:43:04.950
they probably have that cold storage down pretty well for everyone except the US government. Right? So, like, the US government could come in.
601
00:43:05.890 --> 00:43:06.390
6102.
602
00:43:06.769 --> 00:43:11.395
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 6102. I mean, they don't even have to 6102 it. Those coins are already 6102.
603
00:43:12.655 --> 00:43:14.115
You you just need socialism.
604
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:22.020
Right. Yeah. Exactly. You could just tax the shit out of those coins if you wanted to, but they're already 6102. They're already basically controlled by government,
605
00:43:23.625 --> 00:43:26.365
officials just via via a corporate partnership.
606
00:43:26.825 --> 00:43:28.605
Yeah. They're they're IOUs.
607
00:43:29.065 --> 00:43:30.830
On a positive note, we have,
608
00:43:31.230 --> 00:43:33.490
Randy McMillan in the chat mentioned
609
00:43:33.870 --> 00:43:34.370
that,
610
00:43:35.470 --> 00:43:38.930
one of our representatives in the US government, Patrick McHenry,
611
00:43:40.525 --> 00:43:45.505
has posted the Bitcoin white paper on his government website,
612
00:43:46.685 --> 00:43:47.585
on mchenry.house.gov
613
00:43:50.970 --> 00:43:54.349
/bitcoin.pdf. I would love to see Craig try to sue him.
614
00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:56.510
Which is pretty unreal,
615
00:43:57.130 --> 00:43:58.109
and I think
616
00:43:58.454 --> 00:44:04.395
kind of is is a good time to bring up this conversation. Right? So so recently, we had fake so Satoshi,
617
00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:05.835
CSW,
618
00:44:07.670 --> 00:44:08.730
long time fraud,
619
00:44:09.589 --> 00:44:12.490
go after our Bitcoin developers, specifically
620
00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:13.690
bitcoin.org,
621
00:44:14.944 --> 00:44:15.525
and bitcoincore.org,
622
00:44:16.385 --> 00:44:18.005
and try and get them to remove,
623
00:44:19.025 --> 00:44:22.005
the Bitcoin white paper. But I believe there's other attacks happening.
624
00:44:23.620 --> 00:44:24.520
You know, bitcoincore.org
625
00:44:25.700 --> 00:44:28.200
quickly removed the white paper from their website.
626
00:44:29.060 --> 00:44:29.560
Bitcoin.org
627
00:44:31.515 --> 00:44:33.055
decided to stay on the line.
628
00:44:33.434 --> 00:44:33.934
And
629
00:44:34.234 --> 00:44:38.734
since then, we've had a Streisand effect where all these people have come in
630
00:44:39.120 --> 00:44:42.820
and posted the Bitcoin white paper on their respective websites,
631
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.475
ultimately, with Patrick McHenry here posting it on the house.gov
632
00:44:47.775 --> 00:44:48.835
website just now.
633
00:44:49.135 --> 00:44:50.115
So so,
634
00:44:50.655 --> 00:44:56.720
we have Hamish in the in the chat saying, please don't feed the trolls. Absolutely. I prefer not to talk about them, but it is,
635
00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.000
you know, they they forced our hand here.
636
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:02.800
How do we feel about this? How do we feel about Bitcoin,
637
00:45:04.245 --> 00:45:04.745
core.org
638
00:45:05.045 --> 00:45:09.545
removing it from the website? How do we feel about the community response? Where do you guys stand on this?
639
00:45:10.700 --> 00:45:12.640
So this is this is a tricky one.
640
00:45:13.420 --> 00:45:16.560
You know, on one hand, it's not great to see
641
00:45:17.180 --> 00:45:20.464
the core devs cave to a like this
642
00:45:20.924 --> 00:45:25.905
after, you know, very little discussion too. I believe the pull request to remove it from the core
643
00:45:26.230 --> 00:45:30.410
website got merged in after, you know, just 3 acts and probably about
644
00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.290
2 hours of discussion and post.
645
00:45:33.835 --> 00:45:38.095
So on one hand, that wasn't so encouraging to to see.
646
00:45:38.635 --> 00:45:41.934
But on the other hand, you also don't want
647
00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:45.790
these people that are doing important work as far as core goes,
648
00:45:46.410 --> 00:45:57.565
you know, just going to court and and dealing with these idiots. You know, we have more important battles ahead of us. Like, we we need to get Schnorr and Taproot merged in, and I'd really like to see that happen this year.
649
00:45:58.660 --> 00:45:59.160
So,
650
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:02.360
you know, it's it's a bit of a wash
651
00:46:02.740 --> 00:46:03.480
there, but,
652
00:46:05.195 --> 00:46:07.935
you know, it's just very encouraging to see the community
653
00:46:08.475 --> 00:46:11.195
just all step up and, you know, host it.
654
00:46:11.675 --> 00:46:14.095
I think the funniest one was Umbrell
655
00:46:14.569 --> 00:46:19.950
creating an app where you could host a copy of the white paper off your Umbrell note in their app store.
656
00:46:20.250 --> 00:46:21.390
I thought that was great.
657
00:46:21.690 --> 00:46:22.589
So, you know,
658
00:46:23.805 --> 00:46:29.505
this community really thrives when we show our strength in numbers, and that was, like, a really positive and encouraging
659
00:46:30.125 --> 00:46:31.025
thing to see.
660
00:46:32.090 --> 00:46:33.230
So, yeah, I mean,
661
00:46:33.930 --> 00:46:34.430
obviously,
662
00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:39.790
this Greg guy is an absolute fraud, but, you know, we're we're still gonna have to deal
663
00:46:40.345 --> 00:46:51.099
with his actions for a bit longer. But, you know, when we act together like we did and, you know, we saw countless people upload the white paper, you know, we're stronger and we're all better off for it.
664
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:58.555
Yeah. I I I think it's it's absolutely meaningless, you know, what these centralized websites
665
00:46:59.335 --> 00:47:01.755
show. You know, bitcoin core org
666
00:47:02.055 --> 00:47:04.155
is not the Bitcoin core code.
667
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:09.460
It doesn't matter what's on it until it is reliable source of the Bitcoin core binaries.
668
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.665
But even those, we should take from torrents, we should check the signatures, we should check the hashes.
669
00:47:16.245 --> 00:47:16.745
Everyone
670
00:47:17.685 --> 00:47:20.665
who is running a Bitcoin full node has a copy
671
00:47:22.319 --> 00:47:23.059
with himself
672
00:47:23.839 --> 00:47:29.700
there on the on the blockchain. So just run a node, you have the white paper with white paper there.
673
00:47:32.295 --> 00:47:32.954
You know,
674
00:47:33.494 --> 00:47:34.315
I I think
675
00:47:35.015 --> 00:47:35.654
it's just,
676
00:47:36.055 --> 00:47:40.154
it's exactly achieved what what he wanted to do, that he got publicity
677
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.020
and, you know, a bit of fun or something,
678
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:44.380
selling more BSV.
679
00:47:46.600 --> 00:47:48.300
I think it's it is meaningless.
680
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:49.500
What
681
00:47:50.615 --> 00:47:54.234
so I would push back on meaningless. I think it's a perfect teaching moment.
682
00:47:55.494 --> 00:48:00.620
I think I think this is why we're here. Right? This idea that if you have it on a centralized website,
683
00:48:01.160 --> 00:48:05.980
if you have a centralized actor that you can pressure through legal bullshit, through all this other bullshit,
684
00:48:06.600 --> 00:48:08.140
then you'll probably be successful.
685
00:48:09.065 --> 00:48:11.724
The beauty of distributed networks, distributed systems
686
00:48:12.265 --> 00:48:14.045
is that it's not hosted in one place,
687
00:48:14.744 --> 00:48:16.925
that you can't spot it easily. Right?
688
00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:20.280
Yeah. And and the fragile. Exactly. So, you know, from this,
689
00:48:20.580 --> 00:48:26.725
what came to be is is the best which came to be is that, the proposal or the kind of block
690
00:48:27.205 --> 00:48:27.925
entry of,
691
00:48:28.405 --> 00:48:31.545
Vladimir van der van der Laan, the lead Bitcoin,
692
00:48:32.805 --> 00:48:33.305
maintainer,
693
00:48:34.565 --> 00:48:35.705
repository maintainer
694
00:48:36.190 --> 00:48:42.770
that which is pushing for the decentralization of the of the hosting apparatus, you know, putting more emphasis on the torrents.
695
00:48:43.215 --> 00:48:46.675
And, I mean, you know, he was looking into IPFS and things like that, which is just
696
00:48:46.975 --> 00:48:47.695
torrents with the DNS.
697
00:48:49.535 --> 00:48:50.035
And
698
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:53.640
that is actually good. We should do that even without
699
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:54.440
getting,
700
00:48:54.980 --> 00:48:59.080
you know, pressure from these things. And we get this kind of small
701
00:49:00.015 --> 00:49:02.915
pressure from this kind of, clown actor,
702
00:49:03.855 --> 00:49:05.875
and then, you know, we are ready when there
703
00:49:06.255 --> 00:49:07.475
are real threats.
704
00:49:09.070 --> 00:49:10.609
Yeah. Absolutely. Because
705
00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:18.745
this is gonna be like a a fucking walk in the park compared to what we have coming to us in the years to come, I I think, at least from my opinion.
706
00:49:19.125 --> 00:49:24.665
So, you know, if we can't handle this properly, we're gonna be, you know, ill equipped to deal with actual
707
00:49:24.965 --> 00:49:26.505
big state actor threats.
708
00:49:27.109 --> 00:49:41.915
And, you know Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. You brought up Vladimir, and, you know, I just wanna tip my hat to him. You know, he's done such an amazing job as the maintainer of CORE. And, you know, to see his, his blog, to see that he's he's stepping back, you know,
709
00:49:43.789 --> 00:49:44.450
You know,
710
00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:51.730
obviously, I I'm gonna be sad to see him go because he's given us so much, but it's ultimately gonna be for the good of the project to further,
711
00:49:52.705 --> 00:49:54.085
work to decentralize
712
00:49:54.385 --> 00:49:56.965
this thing and make it even more resilient.
713
00:49:57.665 --> 00:49:57.985
So
714
00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:02.570
and on that note, I'd really like to see some of the other,
715
00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:04.430
implementations
716
00:50:04.810 --> 00:50:11.645
of Bitcoin get some more love. Like, let's give Bitcoin Knots some some love because you know? Yeah. And I like to pet a unicorn.
717
00:50:14.345 --> 00:50:16.045
Knots. And and what's the other one?
718
00:50:17.050 --> 00:50:18.350
The BTCD, you'd
719
00:50:18.890 --> 00:50:20.970
go. Yeah. BD is another one.
720
00:50:21.530 --> 00:50:23.869
There there's one other pretty big one. But
721
00:50:24.250 --> 00:50:25.390
regardless, even
722
00:50:26.105 --> 00:50:28.285
besides, like, the maintainers getting targeted,
723
00:50:28.664 --> 00:50:31.565
it it's good to just have more diversity in the ecosystem,
724
00:50:32.184 --> 00:50:38.620
in case, like, a bug comes up and, you know, ends up wiping off, like, a majority of the network. Because, like, think about it because,
725
00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:40.300
like, most Bitcoin
726
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.760
nodes out there are running core, and,
727
00:50:43.705 --> 00:50:49.405
I don't think that's a a good thing. Yeah. But, I mean, I don't think you can get to any kind of sizable.
728
00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:59.940
I I don't I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know if that I think running older older versions of core kind of solves the same same threat model without
729
00:51:00.385 --> 00:51:03.525
without the hopium involved with having, you know, multiple,
730
00:51:04.785 --> 00:51:09.045
you know, well maintained clients. I I think I think a major argument here for
731
00:51:10.180 --> 00:51:14.200
NIMS as developers is huge. You know, like, I have a
732
00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:25.360
Yeah. Ton of respect for Vladimir and and everything he's done, and he's put in his time, and I respect him walking away. And, hopefully, you know, he comes back as a nim, or maybe he's already been contributing as a nim, and we don't even know.
733
00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:29.140
And that gives you some some extra protection there. Right?
734
00:51:35.255 --> 00:51:35.755
SMS.
735
00:51:36.215 --> 00:51:37.435
If I'm not running core,
736
00:51:37.735 --> 00:51:38.715
what do I run?
737
00:51:39.175 --> 00:51:45.310
I can still run core. I I love core and all they've done, but, I've been poking around and messing with a little bit.
738
00:51:46.329 --> 00:51:46.829
So
739
00:51:47.215 --> 00:51:49.715
hope that I'll change it up a little bit with my nodes.
740
00:51:50.255 --> 00:51:52.275
I really would like to see some of these,
741
00:51:52.815 --> 00:51:57.270
prebuilt node solutions, like, like our Nodl or MyNode or Umbrell
742
00:51:57.650 --> 00:51:58.310
or RaspiBlitz,
743
00:51:59.250 --> 00:51:59.750
potentially,
744
00:52:00.130 --> 00:52:03.590
you know, to offer up other options. But, you know, there's also
745
00:52:04.215 --> 00:52:16.180
a cost in many maintaining that. So, you know, like that. Yes. But open up, you're heavy in Raspberry Blitz. What are your thoughts here? Why doesn't Raspberry Blitz not run core? Why does it run core? Horrible question.
746
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:18.500
Well, I mean, core is
747
00:52:18.994 --> 00:52:26.615
the one which everything is tested with. So, you know, we we are we are building so many services on top. You know, we cannot just change pull the rug, you know, under,
748
00:52:27.394 --> 00:52:44.924
that is that, you know, that is an impossible kind of, you know, development task. But what I'm was thinking, for example, to offer more lightning implementations, for example, because now we have like, you know, slightly I mean, sometimes they are diverging and then coming coming together again in terms of what functions are of are being offered.
749
00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:47.810
You know, that would be an interesting thing to do, but,
750
00:52:48.190 --> 00:52:55.234
I I don't think that, you know, it would make sense to to run anything else than core. I mean, what we are looking at is is
751
00:52:55.855 --> 00:53:00.434
when when do we update to the latest, you know, because we need to make sure that everything is is
752
00:53:00.829 --> 00:53:02.690
is working and we are on
753
00:53:03.150 --> 00:53:03.650
20
754
00:53:04.589 --> 00:53:06.770
for now. And then, you know,
755
00:53:07.470 --> 00:53:07.970
does
756
00:53:09.235 --> 00:53:11.095
0 21 come with the new lightning release?
757
00:53:11.795 --> 00:53:12.615
I mean, probably.
758
00:53:12.995 --> 00:53:13.655
We'll see.
759
00:53:15.560 --> 00:53:18.460
Yeah. I think course course course days. I mean, you know, there is
760
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:25.075
I mean, first of all, not it's quite close to core, isn't it? So why would I want
761
00:53:25.935 --> 00:53:29.795
to go to a fork which is which has less kind of eyes on it.
762
00:53:30.895 --> 00:53:34.610
And then, I mean, things people were like my 2 sets has
763
00:53:35.230 --> 00:53:35.730
mentioned,
764
00:53:36.270 --> 00:53:40.290
b coin and, like, etcd and things. I mean, we can do some
765
00:53:40.914 --> 00:53:43.255
kind of, like, neutral filters were were
766
00:53:44.355 --> 00:53:47.634
basically served by both knots and and,
767
00:53:48.035 --> 00:53:48.535
BTCD
768
00:53:49.785 --> 00:53:54.740
as I recall. But now they are in core as well, so, you know, we should just, go on with that.
769
00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:04.964
I, yeah, I I feel to have one stable thing is is the best, but then I mean, I have run multiple nerds. I might look into, you know, having
770
00:54:05.265 --> 00:54:08.960
1 or 2 different, like, you know, I do like what what,
771
00:54:09.359 --> 00:54:12.020
the BitMEX Research Fort Monitor does in this,
772
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:18.395
topic that they are just running multiple versions and multiple implementation and see if there is any any divergence.
773
00:54:19.815 --> 00:54:22.155
But that's not for the, you know,
774
00:54:22.935 --> 00:54:24.315
simple user, I think.
775
00:54:25.910 --> 00:54:26.890
Yeah. I mean,
776
00:54:27.270 --> 00:54:30.810
it's a lot of challenges in doing it and, you know, especially with all these,
777
00:54:32.365 --> 00:54:42.920
you know, these prebuilt node solutions having so many different bits of software, like, not everything is gonna be compatible either. And, you like I said, the cost to maintain is is really big too.
778
00:54:43.540 --> 00:54:45.240
So I don't know. May maybe
779
00:54:45.700 --> 00:54:54.325
it's best for, you know, someone new coming up to build something instead of trying to bootstrap this to an existing implementation. Or
780
00:54:54.805 --> 00:54:55.385
I mean,
781
00:54:56.405 --> 00:55:00.180
I I think I look. I think that this idea of of running
782
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:02.180
old old core nodes
783
00:55:02.720 --> 00:55:19.790
protects you from most of the risks that we're discussing here. Right? These risks that that maybe the with that has, like, other bugs in it. So, like, going back like that has a lot of problems. I I see it. Yeah. But so does I mean, it's not like there's no trade offs to having multiple clients, and we've seen this, you know,
784
00:55:21.290 --> 00:55:24.190
with Ethereum and stuff. What what happens is is
785
00:55:24.795 --> 00:55:28.015
is a big exchange just has to run all the clients,
786
00:55:29.194 --> 00:55:36.650
and they have to run them all at the same time to see what's the issue. And if if there's a disagreement between the clients, there's no clear set,
787
00:55:37.430 --> 00:55:43.049
you know, what what which way do we go from here? Like, what does what does Vitalik say? Which way should we proceed?
788
00:55:47.015 --> 00:55:52.475
But with with with Core, it's very simple. If if there's a if there's a fork in the future,
789
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.339
an accidental fork that has to do with something that was was, you know, pushed in
790
00:55:57.640 --> 00:55:58.140
serostipitously,
791
00:55:58.680 --> 00:56:01.579
like, something that we didn't know got put into a new core release,
792
00:56:02.194 --> 00:56:05.734
we go with the older notes. Like, we follow the older notes. It's a very
793
00:56:06.035 --> 00:56:06.535
straightforward
794
00:56:06.915 --> 00:56:07.415
concept.
795
00:56:08.275 --> 00:56:19.859
And then once if if you add this stuff, it's yeah. Can you guys stop trading? If you add this other stuff in there, it gets it gets all convoluted. It's like, what is the objective truth? I don't know if we solve anything. I think we, like, almost add more issues.
796
00:56:20.255 --> 00:56:28.355
A big thing here is lack of auto updates, which is key in core that they don't allow auto updates because if you have someone able to push an auto update,
797
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:30.740
they could push malicious update.
798
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:40.665
Yeah. With these node packages, that's not the case except for Raspberry Blitz and Ronin Dojo, which make you manually update, which a lot of people think is a negative.
799
00:56:41.045 --> 00:56:45.705
You know, I would say is is a a massive benefit. Like, if you're a Minode user and you're doing,
800
00:56:46.850 --> 00:56:51.430
auto updates, that's fine. Like, I understand it's a convenience thing for you or a normal user,
801
00:56:51.970 --> 00:56:59.145
but but you're not protecting from this direct vector. This this threat model that we're talking about right here, you're just not part of that protection.
802
00:57:00.484 --> 00:57:09.555
Yeah. I I think the update should be off by default, but if the user wants to toggle them on, they should be able to. But it's weird. Right? Because lightning, you wanna auto update or you wanna update quickly.
803
00:57:10.095 --> 00:57:11.075
I don't know. Right?
804
00:57:11.695 --> 00:57:26.645
Only right now because the network is so nascent, and, you know, we're prone to find all these bugs. But, you know, that could easily change down the line, hopefully, as we offspy a little bit more. But, like, things are moving at such like a break net
805
00:57:27.125 --> 00:57:32.905
pace that, you know, if you're updating or if you're not updating, there's, like, a good chance you're gonna, like,
806
00:57:33.525 --> 00:57:35.125
you know, hit hit an issue that,
807
00:57:36.230 --> 00:57:39.690
you know, could lead to lost funds or, you know, incompatibility
808
00:57:40.549 --> 00:57:45.529
as, you know, things are getting ironed out now. So it's probably best for you to keep that updated.
809
00:57:45.895 --> 00:57:48.715
Anthony makes a good point, from bottle pay
810
00:57:49.015 --> 00:57:54.100
that if we allow auto updates, then we might have COVID tracking implemented in core. That
811
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:56.500
is something that we need to be careful about.
812
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:57.300
Wow.
813
00:57:57.680 --> 00:57:58.660
Feel for that.
814
00:57:59.440 --> 00:57:59.940
Hi.
815
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:01.940
Yeah. My my my other worry
816
00:58:02.575 --> 00:58:07.555
about the kind of note packaging and just kind of this kind of approach of everything,
817
00:58:07.855 --> 00:58:10.115
but then we we we start to
818
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:14.900
base too many things on Docker, Microsoft Docker to say that,
819
00:58:15.520 --> 00:58:17.060
which comes with packages
820
00:58:17.795 --> 00:58:20.615
which are not even you cannot even check there.
821
00:58:21.474 --> 00:58:24.295
So the unsigned packages which you just downloading
822
00:58:24.860 --> 00:58:28.320
It's, like, worse than the Google Play Store or the or the Istory
823
00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:37.115
or whatever Apple Store in on on the phone that you are just, you know, updating these apps. And it's it's a concern because, basically, every
824
00:58:38.875 --> 00:58:43.055
like, speak speaking about the kind of, you know, hardware and, you know, what what we are
825
00:58:43.470 --> 00:58:45.810
what we are afraid of when we are running these things.
826
00:58:46.670 --> 00:58:48.050
You know, apart from us,
827
00:58:48.430 --> 00:59:01.830
with the rest of this, you know, everyone is just seem to take the easy route and, you know, just just use Docker. It's so easy. And it's basically it's not anymore it's not just a Bitcoin and lightning node. It's it's a it's a Bitcoin,
828
00:59:02.210 --> 00:59:03.510
lightning and docker node.
829
00:59:04.290 --> 00:59:06.070
Yeah. That that's the problem. I mean,
830
00:59:06.690 --> 00:59:10.710
with docker images, it's possible to make the images a bit viable,
831
00:59:11.465 --> 00:59:21.380
but the nature of the of the software and how it works, it's like most of the stuff that you're gonna pull down aren't gonna be verifiable. You're gonna be like most by and large pulling down binaries.
832
00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:26.500
So, yeah, that that that's another risk in having something like Docker in your stack.
833
00:59:28.005 --> 00:59:28.745
I mean,
834
00:59:29.605 --> 00:59:37.680
the freak should be building from source. I know the freaks aren't building from source, and most of the freaks if you're not building from source, you should at least be verifying your PGP signatures.
835
00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:43.040
Yeah. I know most of the freaks aren't doing that. You're you can there's a guide at usepgp.com,
836
00:59:44.735 --> 00:59:46.095
if you wanna check that out.
837
00:59:46.495 --> 00:59:50.195
Randy McMillan mentioned and and the reason for both of these things,
838
00:59:51.295 --> 00:59:56.900
is because you wanna make sure and and this is what Open Arms and Evan were just talking about. You wanna make sure that
839
00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:00.500
at least, if you can't read code, you wanna make sure that, like, when Evan
840
01:00:01.200 --> 01:00:07.975
builds Zeus and he has a new update for Zeus Mhmm. Which is the lead maintainer for, you wanna make sure that that that
841
01:00:08.355 --> 01:00:09.495
application file,
842
01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:18.720
that installation file doesn't get compromised in between you and Evan. At least you know that, like, I'm trusting Evan and I don't want it to get changed. And that's what
843
01:00:19.325 --> 01:00:21.185
the verification, the PGP verification does.
844
01:00:23.005 --> 01:00:27.425
I another thing that people don't really talk about, and Randy McMillan mentioned this
845
01:00:29.030 --> 01:00:30.170
earlier in the chat,
846
01:00:30.790 --> 01:00:31.930
seed torrent releases,
847
01:00:33.270 --> 01:00:34.650
of each release ASAP.
848
01:00:35.110 --> 01:00:36.250
That already happens,
849
01:00:36.895 --> 01:00:39.635
and people don't really talk about this. A torrent by design
850
01:00:40.495 --> 01:00:43.155
verifies the hash of the file that was uploaded.
851
01:00:43.775 --> 01:00:44.675
So actually,
852
01:00:45.180 --> 01:00:50.080
there's an argument to be made that for that average user who's not gonna verify their PGP signatures,
853
01:00:52.685 --> 01:00:56.145
maybe they should download through torrents. Have you guys given any thought to this?
854
01:00:56.925 --> 01:01:02.970
Oh, yeah. I mean, it's much harder to do, a man in the middle that way. Way. And as part of the protocol, you are verifying,
855
01:01:04.910 --> 01:01:07.049
you know, the hashes of all the bits.
856
01:01:07.509 --> 01:01:12.275
So, yeah, I I would say, generally speaking, there's a better you have better security
857
01:01:13.934 --> 01:01:16.434
security assurances by downloading a torrent,
858
01:01:17.135 --> 01:01:17.635
versus
859
01:01:18.190 --> 01:01:18.690
downloading
860
01:01:19.070 --> 01:01:20.050
a file directly,
861
01:01:20.350 --> 01:01:23.730
at least if you're downloading the torrent from a verifiable source.
862
01:01:24.670 --> 01:01:26.450
So that that's an interesting point.
863
01:01:26.875 --> 01:01:38.070
Yeah. Right? Absolutely. We did I mean, the the rest of it is SD card images, for example, which we, you know, build from source, basically. I mean, we there are some binaries, but even those are verified automatically with BGP.
864
01:01:41.090 --> 01:01:41.910
They are
865
01:01:43.875 --> 01:01:45.174
distributed through torrents
866
01:01:45.474 --> 01:01:51.330
first of all, and then there is a server where you can download from, but it's probably quicker to get the torrents if you are not the first one to download.
867
01:01:52.770 --> 01:01:55.590
And, I mean, all all these things I mean, even if you are,
868
01:01:56.290 --> 01:01:56.870
I mean,
869
01:01:57.730 --> 01:02:04.684
even you could do that with with Zeus just to, you know, put put in a torrent link as well. I mean, you need to figure out how to see it properly
870
01:02:04.984 --> 01:02:08.605
the first time or to how to how to put it in trackers, but then
871
01:02:09.370 --> 01:02:16.270
it is a quite nice way to to download it. And it works on on mobiles as well very nicely. And then as you said,
872
01:02:16.650 --> 01:02:19.265
Matt, it auto checks the the,
873
01:02:19.805 --> 01:02:21.184
hash at least.
874
01:02:21.484 --> 01:02:25.424
So it it's a good step, which is quite difficult to do on the mobile otherwise.
875
01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:32.800
Yeah. I mean, as it stands now, I would just say try to verify the keys that you're pulling from multiple source.
876
01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:38.105
For Zeus, we have one copy hosted on our website, and then we have another copy,
877
01:02:38.964 --> 01:02:43.785
in our GitHub repo. So if you're doing this, try to cross reference. That's good practice.
878
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:47.780
I see a question from Hamish. He asked, is Umbrell
879
01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:49.380
based on Docker?
880
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:50.819
Yes. It is.
881
01:02:51.175 --> 01:02:52.635
It manages all its packages
882
01:02:52.935 --> 01:02:55.355
with Docker, so be mindful of that.
883
01:02:58.215 --> 01:03:00.970
Yeah. L and d just got reproducible Docker
884
01:03:01.350 --> 01:03:01.850
builds,
885
01:03:03.190 --> 01:03:04.490
or they're about
886
01:03:04.790 --> 01:03:06.490
to release that, I believe, with
887
01:03:06.869 --> 01:03:07.369
0.12
888
01:03:07.750 --> 01:03:08.490
or 0.13,
889
01:03:08.869 --> 01:03:09.525
I think.
890
01:03:10.005 --> 01:03:10.505
So,
891
01:03:11.125 --> 01:03:14.265
check that out if you're using Docker in your stack.
892
01:03:14.805 --> 01:03:15.625
Well, 61026102
893
01:03:16.885 --> 01:03:22.079
says you have to find the torrent from somewhere. I mean, I I think, like, the average user can confirm a torrent
894
01:03:22.859 --> 01:03:24.240
link or torrent
895
01:03:25.180 --> 01:03:26.400
magnet URL.
896
01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:32.234
Yeah. Yeah. It's best in the PGP send message. Easier easier than they can do PGP.
897
01:03:32.775 --> 01:03:35.914
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, PGP, you gotta, like, you know,
898
01:03:36.910 --> 01:03:40.670
it's like a harder workflow to just, like, verify stuff, generally speaking, or any
899
01:03:42.510 --> 01:03:44.370
But the idea is to pub publish
900
01:03:45.155 --> 01:03:54.560
a torrent magnet link in a PGP sign message. Right. Correct. And and that's not gonna verify that. We're talking about the user that's not verifying that. Okay. But even
901
01:03:55.180 --> 01:04:00.315
if only, you know, one out of a 100 per 100 people verify that, it's it's already much better.
902
01:04:00.714 --> 01:04:09.375
And it's just, you know, you you would just think why is why is all that code around it? You know, what does that do? So, you know, it just makes makes PGP natural.
903
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.260
And we saw that we saw that with Monero, actually.
904
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:20.285
I know there's some freaks that prefer that I just never discuss altcoins, but sometimes I bring it up when there's a learning experience.
905
01:04:21.225 --> 01:04:23.405
With Monero, a lot of people said that,
906
01:04:24.185 --> 01:04:27.390
a blind shot 256 hash doesn't help you.
907
01:04:27.789 --> 01:04:30.289
You need to have a PGP signed hash.
908
01:04:31.549 --> 01:04:33.010
But it turned out that,
909
01:04:33.390 --> 01:04:33.890
getmonero.org
910
01:04:34.990 --> 01:04:35.809
got compromised.
911
01:04:36.325 --> 01:04:42.025
They changed the file, but the hash was hosted on a different web server and that server wasn't,
912
01:04:43.650 --> 01:04:47.350
that server wasn't compromised. So you didn't actually even need to do a PGP verification.
913
01:04:47.730 --> 01:04:52.710
If you just did a simple shot 256 hash of the file, you saw that it was the wrong
914
01:04:53.025 --> 01:04:54.885
hash, and someone alerted,
915
01:04:55.424 --> 01:05:00.005
the rest of the community within, like, 40 minutes. There was, like, a 1000 malicious downloads or something.
916
01:05:00.550 --> 01:05:06.890
Which I I count as a win. That's a win for open source software. Right? Yeah. Relatively speaking, that's a really quick turnaround, 40 minutes.
917
01:05:07.325 --> 01:05:12.545
So it's good that they have that many eyes on it. You know, that might not happen on a project that gets useless.
918
01:05:14.390 --> 01:05:18.890
Yeah. Where where is the magnet link from? Well, you know, I mean, in case of Twitter, obviously.
919
01:05:19.430 --> 01:05:24.555
Yeah. Yes. I mean, you could do it on Twitter, but you could put an TXT file on,
920
01:05:25.494 --> 01:05:33.890
on GitHub or GitLab or wherever you're hosting your repo. I mean, until it is is a p PGP signed, it is fine. And, you know, not everyone will,
921
01:05:34.750 --> 01:05:36.830
verify but, you know, if I if I
922
01:05:38.030 --> 01:05:38.930
I've came into
923
01:05:40.035 --> 01:05:43.655
this situation couple of times that I was, like, downloading, you know, the first,
924
01:05:44.194 --> 01:05:52.110
release candidate release candidate images from, like, or binaries from LND and then, you know, I found out that well, guys this is, you know, it's not
925
01:05:52.650 --> 01:05:54.910
I found who signed it but this wasn't the one
926
01:05:55.335 --> 01:06:01.335
developer who was, written on the website and then, you know, went to the Slack and said, well, look, this is not working out but,
927
01:06:01.975 --> 01:06:06.790
or your your key has expired and things like that. And, you know, I I knew that at
928
01:06:07.150 --> 01:06:07.650
least
929
01:06:08.010 --> 01:06:08.510
I
930
01:06:08.870 --> 01:06:09.370
checked.
931
01:06:09.730 --> 01:06:11.670
Okay. There's magnet link. Thank you.
932
01:06:14.135 --> 01:06:21.595
I appreciate that. So just to be clear everything there. Yeah. You just take it in in on Windows, the Qbit torrent, q QB,
933
01:06:22.829 --> 01:06:24.130
I think. Yeah. QBIT
934
01:06:24.670 --> 01:06:25.170
torrent
935
01:06:26.349 --> 01:06:27.570
is an open source
936
01:06:31.565 --> 01:06:33.744
torrent client, which you should download
937
01:06:35.005 --> 01:06:35.825
on Windows.
938
01:06:36.204 --> 01:06:39.310
And then, I mean, you have, like, transmission on Linux
939
01:06:39.710 --> 01:06:40.210
and
940
01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:41.970
Mac. Someone else will,
941
01:06:42.750 --> 01:06:47.170
say what to use. And you just paste this link as it is
942
01:06:47.550 --> 01:06:48.370
into the
943
01:06:48.704 --> 01:06:53.845
torrent window, and it's done. That's how you download download things. As you can see, it does
944
01:06:54.464 --> 01:07:00.520
have the info which you need. It just needs this little tech tool. Like, Bitcoiners don't give enough credit to torrents. Like,
945
01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.140
Torrents the torrent technology is in Bitcoin.
946
01:07:05.615 --> 01:07:12.515
Mhmm. But it's it's torrents are badass. Like, do we agree the torrents are badass? Oh, hell yeah. I mean, it's, like, only just because
947
01:07:13.130 --> 01:07:14.589
that, of of BitTorrent
948
01:07:14.890 --> 01:07:24.195
really that, like, these streaming services really had to come to to prominence and get good, you know? Like, I don't think we'd see Spotify as as soon as we saw it if it wasn't for something like BitTorrent
949
01:07:24.735 --> 01:07:26.595
really putting the pressure on the industry.
950
01:07:27.055 --> 01:07:32.830
So, you know, shout out to, to BitTorrent. It's incredible technology, and you should still use it today.
951
01:07:33.450 --> 01:07:38.555
Yeah. And 6102, yes, we should verify. So this magnet link should be
952
01:07:39.755 --> 01:07:41.694
4 times bigger wall of text
953
01:07:42.395 --> 01:07:44.335
within a GPG signature.
954
01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:45.375
And then
955
01:07:46.130 --> 01:07:53.110
the the magnet bit, you should copy paste into your, torrent client. Yeah. That's what that's what that's where we got to. You know?
956
01:07:53.895 --> 01:08:07.330
Yeah. My my takeaway is unless you have a verified source of truth with, like, a a PGP key that you've already verified, like, you know Which has been signed by others. Right? Yeah. That's signed by others or or you know through, you know, some other
957
01:08:08.030 --> 01:08:09.810
medium that it's legit. Right?
958
01:08:10.605 --> 01:08:12.625
Then, you know, don't trust any single
959
01:08:13.085 --> 01:08:18.305
source as a source of truth. You know, that's what this whole Bitcoin thing is all about. Like, no one entity
960
01:08:18.925 --> 01:08:19.665
should be
961
01:08:20.110 --> 01:08:27.090
should be trusted. Like, you should be able you should have split up that trust across multiple parties and verify through multiple different sources,
962
01:08:27.645 --> 01:08:31.905
like sources that, you know, aren't connected to each other. And that's what this thing is all about.
963
01:08:33.165 --> 01:08:39.060
Yeah. I mean, I feel like 61 or 2 stopping our friends if we don't make it clear that everyone should just learn how to use,
964
01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:40.020
GPG
965
01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:42.580
and, verify all of their
966
01:08:42.915 --> 01:08:43.415
signatures
967
01:08:43.715 --> 01:08:47.255
for software they download. And if your developer is not providing
968
01:08:48.035 --> 01:08:49.015
signed downloads,
969
01:08:49.795 --> 01:08:54.370
shame on them. Shame them publicly. Shame them loudly. Don't use the software.
970
01:08:58.165 --> 01:09:00.985
Okay. Next subject. Let's fucking go.
971
01:09:01.764 --> 01:09:02.264
Encryption.
972
01:09:02.965 --> 01:09:05.465
End to end encryption. Reduced knowledge
973
01:09:06.130 --> 01:09:08.230
of what is going on by your users.
974
01:09:08.850 --> 01:09:11.510
We are seeing now signal is hitting,
975
01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:15.750
you know well, really, people should use GPG, but they're not
976
01:09:16.115 --> 01:09:16.855
once again.
977
01:09:18.115 --> 01:09:21.255
The the real game changer is when you provide them easy UX,
978
01:09:22.275 --> 01:09:33.949
with with that same cryptographic guarantees, which is what signal attempts to do. Now is there a trust model there? Yes. Have we discussed the trust model last episode? Yes. So I don't wanna really discuss the trust model that much.
979
01:09:34.285 --> 01:09:39.344
Sure. We are trusting signal. We are trusting the app stores that provide you the package.
980
01:09:39.645 --> 01:09:41.344
I wanna talk about a bigger,
981
01:09:43.210 --> 01:09:45.070
you know, a bigger macro issue
982
01:09:45.370 --> 01:09:48.590
with the idea of encrypted messengers, which is this idea that,
983
01:09:49.125 --> 01:09:52.664
and we we saw an article come out today, I think, in TechCrunch.
984
01:09:53.605 --> 01:09:59.250
New York Times did a a FUD piece on it. Alex Gladstein did the opposite in Time Magazine.
985
01:10:00.590 --> 01:10:01.810
This idea that
986
01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:05.010
a user of signal, that signal can't
987
01:10:05.695 --> 01:10:13.475
police their users, they don't know what their users are doing, they don't know who their users are, so they can't stop criminals from using signal.
988
01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:31.685
And and and we're gonna see this argument pop its head up more and more. We saw it in encryption wars that basically have never ended and continue to this day. The previous attorney general for the United States was was just talking about trying to end around encryption. They they talk about it like they're not trying to ban encryption, but as soon as you try and add backdoors,
989
01:10:32.010 --> 01:10:34.170
try and add this visibility, you're doing it.
990
01:10:36.730 --> 01:10:38.110
You know, where
991
01:10:39.185 --> 01:10:40.885
I I I I think an interesting,
992
01:10:41.265 --> 01:10:42.885
interesting metaphor here
993
01:10:43.345 --> 01:10:43.845
is
994
01:10:45.025 --> 01:10:45.845
is cars.
995
01:10:46.540 --> 01:10:48.880
I I don't know. People might think I'm crazy.
996
01:10:49.580 --> 01:10:50.080
Vehicles.
997
01:10:50.780 --> 01:10:55.625
We are driving these 2 ton vehicles, 1 ton vehicles down the road, and people are
998
01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:11.000
for a crime or not. But we don't tell people that they can't use cars, that they're, like, cars cannot be sold.
999
01:11:11.700 --> 01:11:21.915
We trust them that they're gonna use that car in good faith. And if they don't, then we go at them, you know, through basic police work, good old fashioned police work and and, you know, legal repercussions.
1000
01:11:23.280 --> 01:11:27.460
I don't see a difference there with encryption, but I know that lawmakers do. So so
1001
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:28.580
I'm curious,
1002
01:11:29.495 --> 01:11:34.875
you know, do do you guys think we're gonna see more of this? We're gonna see, like, terrorists use encryption, terrorists use Bitcoin,
1003
01:11:35.895 --> 01:11:36.555
you know,
1004
01:11:37.660 --> 01:11:38.960
what is your best argument
1005
01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:40.160
for why
1006
01:11:40.620 --> 01:11:44.730
something like signals should be protected? Why why people should be able to have
1007
01:11:45.875 --> 01:11:50.695
encrypted end to end speech where where the provider doesn't know what's going on. They have no idea.
1008
01:11:53.370 --> 01:11:58.270
This is just comes down to the need of privacy. I always ask people why they have a a door on their toilets.
1009
01:12:02.545 --> 01:12:03.045
You
1010
01:12:04.385 --> 01:12:04.885
know?
1011
01:12:05.185 --> 01:12:05.685
Yeah.
1012
01:12:06.625 --> 01:12:09.445
Even the guys that are running these spy agencies,
1013
01:12:09.745 --> 01:12:11.605
right, they still have
1014
01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:13.150
lines on their windows.
1015
01:12:13.850 --> 01:12:16.199
Do they do they have anything to hide?
1016
01:12:18.985 --> 01:12:21.165
Right. But I don't think these arguments are very
1017
01:12:21.945 --> 01:12:27.725
you know, like, I don't think I think a regulator is gonna laugh at my car's argue if you know, metaphor. I I think,
1018
01:12:28.770 --> 01:12:35.350
we have Rad Vladdy in the comments saying, what about the shoe companies? I mean, every terrorist probably wore sneakers. I mean, some probably wore boots.
1019
01:12:37.075 --> 01:12:39.335
You can KYC shoes and cars, definitely.
1020
01:12:39.635 --> 01:12:43.735
Right? You're gonna KYC them and try and thought police them ahead of time. It's not practical.
1021
01:12:44.180 --> 01:12:48.120
I don't think that's a effective argument, you know. My my co
1022
01:12:48.500 --> 01:12:56.975
host, Tales from the Crypt, Marty Bent, you know, he he constantly hits me with the, do we live in a free country? Do we do this, or do we do not? Do we do that?
1023
01:12:57.355 --> 01:13:00.415
And and to me, these arguments always come down to that scorpion
1024
01:13:01.389 --> 01:13:02.130
that scorpion,
1025
01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:03.650
frog metaphor.
1026
01:13:04.190 --> 01:13:28.670
Where, like, the frog is bringing the scorpion across the water, the scorpion pros promises him he's not gonna sting him, and the frog's, like, well, if he stings me, then it hurts both of us. And then it stings him anyway. Right? And that's the same idea with encryption. Like, if if we make it hard for honest Americans, honest law abiding citizens, I'm not gonna keep this America focused because open arms isn't America, you know, just an average law abiding citizen can't protect their own privacy.
1027
01:13:29.775 --> 01:13:33.155
We are dooming this country. We we are hurting our own citizens.
1028
01:13:33.935 --> 01:13:41.400
I don't think they care. And I think that's where open source comes in. I think the idea of open source is that if we have like a signal,
1029
01:13:43.060 --> 01:13:44.119
that gets banned,
1030
01:13:44.420 --> 01:13:49.735
like, at least you can still use PGP. Right? At least you can still use some random open source APK.
1031
01:13:52.355 --> 01:13:57.255
Yeah. For sure. So so it really comes down for me, it comes down to 2 parts. It's like, okay.
1032
01:13:57.940 --> 01:13:59.159
Economically, right?
1033
01:13:59.460 --> 01:14:05.080
Like, yeah. Sure. These things like, you know, shoes and cars and planes
1034
01:14:05.780 --> 01:14:07.159
and guns and
1035
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:18.920
encryption can all be used for bad things. But, you know, if you were to somehow be able to wave a magic wand and make them go away, we're all gonna be poor off for it because the economic
1036
01:14:19.700 --> 01:14:20.200
possibilities
1037
01:14:21.060 --> 01:14:28.485
are reduced so much. I mean, think about it. Like, encryption is not just used for our private signal messages or for Bitcoin transactions.
1038
01:14:29.344 --> 01:14:35.820
They're used, when we log into our bank accounts, when we make our transactions with our credit cards on Amazon,
1039
01:14:38.920 --> 01:14:44.594
everywhere when we will sign into our systems for work. Like, if you get rid of encryption, like, these things are, like,
1040
01:14:45.054 --> 01:14:46.594
could hardly function anymore.
1041
01:14:47.135 --> 01:14:48.275
And then furthermore,
1042
01:14:48.815 --> 01:14:50.994
like, my other argument would be like the practicality.
1043
01:14:51.375 --> 01:14:55.060
You can't, and that by and large because of open source
1044
01:14:55.520 --> 01:15:00.660
and because of, you know, the computing revolution and the accessibility that we have with all these processors
1045
01:15:01.425 --> 01:15:04.005
to to whip stuff up, and you use
1046
01:15:04.545 --> 01:15:06.005
math to, you know,
1047
01:15:06.545 --> 01:15:10.645
verify our software downloads or send encrypted messages or use Bitcoin.
1048
01:15:11.170 --> 01:15:22.145
You know? Like, at the end of the day, you're not gonna be able to ban it one way or the other. Right? Like, okay. Maybe the US government puts the clamp down and, you know, you can't use GitHub anymore
1049
01:15:22.765 --> 01:15:27.265
or, you know, they put pressure on the ISPs to start censoring stuff.
1050
01:15:28.410 --> 01:15:30.110
We're gonna route around that shit.
1051
01:15:30.730 --> 01:15:36.750
The Internet was built to route around all of this bullshit, and these centralized hubs that can be censored
1052
01:15:37.095 --> 01:15:38.795
are anomalies in the whole system.
1053
01:15:39.975 --> 01:15:41.035
And, you
1054
01:15:41.655 --> 01:15:48.050
know, you can write whatever piece of bill legislation which with whatever threat of violence or imprisonment behind
1055
01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:58.324
it. But the toothpaste is out of the tube. You can't stop this anymore. So why waste our valuable time, right, which is really the most scarce thing we have
1056
01:15:58.784 --> 01:16:01.685
debating this? It's over. It's over the debate
1057
01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:04.580
Because if someone really wants to use this tech,
1058
01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:06.659
they're gonna be able to now.
1059
01:16:10.655 --> 01:16:16.034
Yeah. A 100% agree. You just, I mean, in the digital world, the problem is
1060
01:16:16.735 --> 01:16:20.350
which is getting more apparent that they can stop you to move physically.
1061
01:16:20.730 --> 01:16:22.830
But, you know, in the
1062
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:24.680
well,
1063
01:16:26.085 --> 01:16:32.985
it it and also it's always a fight. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not over because they're trying always to push back and then,
1064
01:16:33.525 --> 01:16:34.730
you know, you need to
1065
01:16:35.050 --> 01:16:40.350
find new ways to route around like, you know, ISPs are centralized so you need mesh networks or you need satellites
1066
01:16:40.890 --> 01:16:41.390
or,
1067
01:16:42.055 --> 01:16:47.275
you know, your hardware manufacturers manufacturers are compromised. So you need open source hardware. You need to
1068
01:16:47.575 --> 01:16:48.235
be able
1069
01:16:48.855 --> 01:16:52.200
to make your hardware at home at some point. You know? Grow it out of
1070
01:16:53.340 --> 01:16:53.840
mushrooms.
1071
01:16:54.980 --> 01:17:03.155
Yeah. And and I I think if, like, you think it's possible for this monolithic entity in in the form of the state to be able to find a way to clamp down on this stuff,
1072
01:17:03.695 --> 01:17:06.595
then that's, like, an inherently pessimistic view against
1073
01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:08.860
humanity because I think that
1074
01:17:09.400 --> 01:17:09.900
individuals
1075
01:17:10.360 --> 01:17:10.860
and
1076
01:17:11.320 --> 01:17:12.060
their ingenuity
1077
01:17:12.520 --> 01:17:14.620
is is unmatched. You know?
1078
01:17:15.160 --> 01:17:15.660
Whatever
1079
01:17:16.534 --> 01:17:20.235
arbitrary thing something someone dictates from the state, like,
1080
01:17:21.014 --> 01:17:30.470
some new form you're gonna incentivize someone or a group of people to work on something to to work around it, and someone's gonna come up with a new solution
1081
01:17:31.250 --> 01:17:32.950
to route around your arbitrary
1082
01:17:34.615 --> 01:17:35.835
dictate. So,
1083
01:17:37.255 --> 01:17:37.915
you know,
1084
01:17:38.535 --> 01:17:42.555
do so at your own peril. My dog just got fired up by your
1085
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:47.620
by your speech. I,
1086
01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:52.580
yeah. Look. I mean, I 100% agree. I I think the cat's out of the I like the toothpaste
1087
01:17:53.345 --> 01:18:10.775
out of the tube. That just sounds you know, like, cats shouldn't be in bags. So when the cat's out of the bag, like, I'm proud of the cat. Cat back into a bag, but You are walking into the bathroom, and the the toothpaste is outside of the tube. Like, what the fuck's going on? I don't know. Yes. This is it's no good. It seems disturbing to me.
1088
01:18:11.335 --> 01:18:17.860
But, yeah, I I I do think, like, when you talk about tools that empower individuals that that help,
1089
01:18:19.140 --> 01:18:21.240
strengthen individuals and and
1090
01:18:21.700 --> 01:18:22.200
create
1091
01:18:22.580 --> 01:18:23.080
empowerment,
1092
01:18:24.135 --> 01:18:27.675
to argue against them becomes immediately obvious. Like, one side,
1093
01:18:28.855 --> 01:18:31.435
wants free choice, wants people to have the option,
1094
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:40.260
and and the other side is just straight up going for bans. And it's a very weird dichotomy, and I think it becomes very obvious to the average individual,
1095
01:18:41.054 --> 01:18:43.954
when presented those two situations. Like, you can have,
1096
01:18:45.215 --> 01:18:47.474
by all means, someone can argue the efficacy
1097
01:18:47.775 --> 01:18:48.275
of
1098
01:18:48.679 --> 01:18:58.195
of of our lifeboats and whether or not our lifeboats will hold water and and and protect us. But to to tell us that that lifeboat usage should be banned completely,
1099
01:18:59.375 --> 01:19:01.555
from a sinking ship is, like, absolute,
1100
01:19:02.550 --> 01:19:06.010
you know, ridiculousness. And I I think most people see through that.
1101
01:19:06.870 --> 01:19:22.660
I'll tell you one thing. The criminals definitely see through it. The criminals are gonna use all this shit no matter what. So any any kind of restrictions you put in on an individual empowering tools, you're just hurting that that average law abiding person who doesn't wanna doesn't want to ruffle any feathers.
1102
01:19:23.040 --> 01:19:23.540
Yep.
1103
01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:29.615
Yeah. Yes. They say they say in the chat that the rules
1104
01:19:29.935 --> 01:19:35.475
are, like, ban is on does only work on good people. Bad people don't care about this.
1105
01:19:35.775 --> 01:19:37.295
So it is inherently
1106
01:19:39.210 --> 01:19:40.750
doesn't serve its purpose.
1107
01:19:42.650 --> 01:19:43.150
Understand.
1108
01:19:43.690 --> 01:19:45.150
And at this point, like,
1109
01:19:45.770 --> 01:19:48.910
come on. Are you gonna honestly tell me that the the
1110
01:19:49.435 --> 01:19:49.935
malicious
1111
01:19:50.395 --> 01:19:56.960
uses of it outweigh, like, the legitimate uses of numbers? Like, no way. Whether it comes to encrypted messaging
1112
01:19:57.740 --> 01:19:58.240
or,
1113
01:19:59.580 --> 01:20:04.755
Bitcoin, like, that's definitely not the case. We're by and large using it for legal things.
1114
01:20:06.275 --> 01:20:09.815
So we've been discussing open hardware, open software.
1115
01:20:12.040 --> 01:20:15.340
A big pain point that we've seen in our daily lives is
1116
01:20:16.040 --> 01:20:17.820
most people's main computer
1117
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:19.980
is their phone,
1118
01:20:20.325 --> 01:20:25.865
and their phone is usually either operated by a Google operating system or an Apple operating system,
1119
01:20:26.725 --> 01:20:28.425
who they have to trust wholeheartedly,
1120
01:20:30.130 --> 01:20:32.390
with both their privacy and their security.
1121
01:20:33.250 --> 01:20:35.830
There's a ton of closed source blobs in there.
1122
01:20:37.315 --> 01:20:39.495
Yep. What's really cool is
1123
01:20:41.315 --> 01:20:43.415
what's called my eye recently is GrapheneOS,
1124
01:20:43.795 --> 01:20:48.120
which allows you to install a d Google version of Android that's privacy focused
1125
01:20:48.900 --> 01:20:51.320
on, ironically enough, Google hardware,
1126
01:20:51.699 --> 01:20:56.335
which is more open hardware that has secure element in it, so that's why they target
1127
01:20:56.715 --> 01:20:59.935
it, ironically enough. But, ultimately, what we wanna see is open hardware.
1128
01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.340
Before we get to the open hardware
1129
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:05.380
conversation, I just wanted to mention real quickly here
1130
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:12.495
that Graphene has two things that I think are really game changing in terms of open software. I mean, I have a guide on tftc.tv
1131
01:21:13.195 --> 01:21:19.670
on how to install it, and I recommend people do. It's easier and more accessible than they think it is. But my guide is about to be obsolete.
1132
01:21:20.770 --> 01:21:21.590
They have
1133
01:21:22.130 --> 01:21:23.910
a Chromium based version
1134
01:21:24.530 --> 01:21:27.110
of the installer, so you don't need fast boot.
1135
01:21:28.034 --> 01:21:32.855
And you can just do it all from a browser. And, actually, you can do it from another Graphene phone,
1136
01:21:34.330 --> 01:21:42.625
which is a game changer. If you just have a USB c cable, you can install Graphene on a Pixel from another Pixel that has Graphene on it. No computer necessary.
1137
01:21:43.005 --> 01:21:47.105
They also have this verification method where you can verify instead of PGP signatures,
1138
01:21:47.485 --> 01:22:02.824
you can verify with a QR code from another Android phone. It doesn't actually even have to be a Graphene phone. So you can you can have a second source of truth from another Android phone, ideally a Graphene phone, but it doesn't have to be a Graphene phone. Those two things combined, I think, are really cool ideas
1139
01:22:03.205 --> 01:22:05.625
in terms of trying to make open source software,
1140
01:22:06.165 --> 01:22:08.665
specifically, provable and verifiable software,
1141
01:22:10.110 --> 01:22:13.170
more accessible for the average user. So I'd like to see more of that.
1142
01:22:14.750 --> 01:22:16.850
I know both of you guys are are pretty bullish
1143
01:22:17.215 --> 01:22:25.955
Graphene. 6102 is asking us Calyxt OS versus Graphene versus Copperhead. Do you guys have any opinions here? Yeah. I'm running I'm running Calyxt
1144
01:22:26.440 --> 01:22:30.060
as my day to day now. Managed to to switch over,
1145
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:32.139
from actual Google
1146
01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:33.100
and
1147
01:22:34.265 --> 01:22:38.685
Graphene I have as well, but I didn't it didn't manage to stick because
1148
01:22:39.145 --> 01:22:45.630
for to to sometimes literally navigate in the field life, you know, I I I need the I need the Google services,
1149
01:22:46.010 --> 01:22:46.910
which is available
1150
01:22:47.290 --> 01:22:52.110
in Calix OS in the form of an open source alternative, which is called Micro g.
1151
01:22:52.535 --> 01:22:55.035
So you can have your notifications. You can have your,
1152
01:22:55.895 --> 01:23:05.090
all the apps which are which would be dependent on those kind of things. And still the information which is shared to Google, if necessary, it's it's controlled
1153
01:23:05.630 --> 01:23:07.465
and stripped to the absolute minimum,
1154
01:23:08.085 --> 01:23:11.545
and you can stop it and control it from by
1155
01:23:11.925 --> 01:23:12.905
app by app
1156
01:23:13.205 --> 01:23:15.385
and see what is being being shared.
1157
01:23:16.869 --> 01:23:18.250
Also, I mean,
1158
01:23:19.190 --> 01:23:22.250
the main reason for these all these o s is to use
1159
01:23:23.185 --> 01:23:23.685
pixels
1160
01:23:24.065 --> 01:23:26.405
to start with because the boot boot loader
1161
01:23:27.025 --> 01:23:33.219
that's the main phone kind of brand, which does allow allow the bootloader to be relocked.
1162
01:23:33.600 --> 01:23:37.940
Mhmm. Other otherwise, you can install open source Android without Google called,
1163
01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:53.030
now it's called Lineage OS or AOS p Android on basically any Android phone. But you cannot reload the bootloader because those most of the phones don't allow us. There is, like, an exception which is called the the it's in Chinese
1164
01:23:53.570 --> 01:23:54.390
called Xiaomi
1165
01:23:54.770 --> 01:23:59.605
a a 5 m m 2, which is an old phone. It costs, like, less than a 100 USD.
1166
01:24:00.225 --> 01:24:01.285
You can only
1167
01:24:02.065 --> 01:24:13.530
probably I mean, you should you should be able to buy it new as well. That's might be 200, but it's it's, you know, there's a huge used market. So it's it's like, you know, it's very cheap thing to have. And then
1168
01:24:14.205 --> 01:24:19.485
it it is like more tricky to put the Calix OS on it, but, that that's what I was I was,
1169
01:24:19.885 --> 01:24:23.105
playing with and it's it's working great. Right. And also
1170
01:24:23.850 --> 01:24:25.710
Let's unpack for the freaks why,
1171
01:24:26.090 --> 01:24:39.455
we wanna lock the bootloader. Yes. Exactly. So so the main thing is that on even on that, the bootloader can be locked. So if I lose the phone, then someone with a minimal knowledge to be able to attach, like, a micro USB,
1172
01:24:40.155 --> 01:24:41.135
to their laptop,
1173
01:24:41.915 --> 01:24:42.415
cannot
1174
01:24:42.780 --> 01:24:43.280
open
1175
01:24:44.380 --> 01:24:45.680
the inside. So it doesn't,
1176
01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:55.225
it's not not not able to read the contents of the of the of the phone, which is just a minimum security. So what you do when you when, you know, someone
1177
01:24:55.925 --> 01:24:56.425
would,
1178
01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:10.645
well, let's assume not steal, but find a phone, you know, and there is no way to return it to the to the previous owner, but you either take it to the to the police station, which I wouldn't. But you would you you would you would want to use it or sell it then,
1179
01:25:11.344 --> 01:25:13.364
there is no other way just to reset it.
1180
01:25:13.930 --> 01:25:15.870
Except if the bootloader is unlocked
1181
01:25:16.330 --> 01:25:16.830
or
1182
01:25:17.210 --> 01:25:18.350
broken or whatever,
1183
01:25:19.449 --> 01:25:21.665
where it rooted, that's the Android lingo.
1184
01:25:22.065 --> 01:25:24.565
The g r broken is the is the iOS lingo. Right?
1185
01:25:24.865 --> 01:25:27.205
Yeah. So the phone is rooted and the the,
1186
01:25:27.665 --> 01:25:30.165
bootloader is open, then without
1187
01:25:30.580 --> 01:25:33.239
resetting the phone, you can change the the,
1188
01:25:34.340 --> 01:25:36.600
software on it. And with that, you can
1189
01:25:38.715 --> 01:25:45.535
access all the data on it. So anything which is not encrypted then with a different key is open to the
1190
01:25:46.060 --> 01:25:50.320
to the prime guys, whether it be a banking application, your notes, your contacts, or
1191
01:25:50.700 --> 01:25:54.720
whatever. Yeah. For that's called an evil mate attack. So
1192
01:25:55.855 --> 01:25:57.155
you don't valid.
1193
01:25:57.534 --> 01:26:11.390
Or or just a simple steal. If someone has if someone has physical access to your device and your bootloader is not locked, they can run any arbitrary software that code they wanna run. Yeah. So so if if you if
1194
01:26:12.205 --> 01:26:19.025
if they they can end around your PIN or whatever kind of password you have on there. Now if if you actually have it encrypted,
1195
01:26:19.325 --> 01:26:23.710
then they're you're still protected. They have to brute force your encryption password,
1196
01:26:24.330 --> 01:26:34.155
but, presumably, they can brute it easier if your bootloader is not locked. So ideally, in terms of physical security on your phone, you want your bootloader to be locked with both Kallix.
1197
01:26:34.775 --> 01:26:41.159
With all 3 of the of the questions, Kallix, Graphene, and Copperhead, you can lock your bootloader if you use
1198
01:26:41.699 --> 01:26:43.480
Pixel phones. I think,
1199
01:26:43.860 --> 01:26:45.960
what Open Arms is saying is there's a random
1200
01:26:46.805 --> 01:26:48.245
yao Xiaomi phone,
1201
01:26:49.045 --> 01:26:54.585
She only phone. You know, the phone. Yeah. X I a m o. Yeah. I don't know how to pronounce their hardware.
1202
01:26:54.940 --> 01:26:57.520
That that allows you to lock the bootloader, but, of course,
1203
01:26:58.380 --> 01:27:01.680
then you're just exchanging, you know, Chinese backdoored hardware,
1204
01:27:02.220 --> 01:27:06.844
for US backdoored hardware. Because I'm the opposite. What? It's all made in China.
1205
01:27:07.145 --> 01:27:12.445
Alright. Everything's made well, not Samsung makes a lot of their shit in Vietnam. I don't know. Really? Interesting.
1206
01:27:13.065 --> 01:27:13.965
Does that help?
1207
01:27:14.620 --> 01:27:15.120
But,
1208
01:27:15.739 --> 01:27:22.160
yeah. So so Kallax is interesting to me. I think the main thing that's interesting that people don't realize is that eSIMs are allowed.
1209
01:27:23.295 --> 01:27:26.835
Yeah. And and we highlighted a freak run business, silent.link,
1210
01:27:27.295 --> 01:27:34.659
last last week, and I guess we're highlighting it again this week, that allows you to buy an eSIM with be Bitcoin with no KYC.
1211
01:27:34.960 --> 01:27:43.795
It's all out of stock there. Yeah. Which is dope. I I spoke to our boy, Khitan, who did it on Calyx, said it works fantastic. Now he has a British number.
1212
01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:46.280
And,
1213
01:27:46.680 --> 01:27:49.660
yeah. So you can't do that with Graphene. So that's the major benefit.
1214
01:27:50.680 --> 01:28:01.565
Obviously, the second major benefit is is is that you have Google services, but, you know, someone who uses Graphene would say that's a feature, not a bug. So, basically, if you wanna go super hardcore, use Graphene. If you don't,
1215
01:28:02.030 --> 01:28:02.850
use Kallix.
1216
01:28:03.390 --> 01:28:03.890
Copperhead
1217
01:28:04.270 --> 01:28:05.550
was like a fight with,
1218
01:28:06.910 --> 01:28:10.290
with the graph the the founders of Graphene,
1219
01:28:11.205 --> 01:28:11.865
it was
1220
01:28:12.325 --> 01:28:17.145
called Android hardened hardened Android, something to that effect, and they they got into an argument,
1221
01:28:17.765 --> 01:28:23.000
and they split up. So Copperhead is the for profit project, and Graphene is the free open source,
1222
01:28:23.700 --> 01:28:24.200
version.
1223
01:28:24.980 --> 01:28:29.000
So Copperhead, you have to actually buy the phone with Copperhead already on,
1224
01:28:29.505 --> 01:28:32.885
and there's some DRM elements to it. So I Yeah.
1225
01:28:33.185 --> 01:28:40.160
Am am strictly either Graphene or Calix, currently running Graphene. Consider either. They're both major improvements over,
1226
01:28:42.060 --> 01:28:48.594
just running like a stock Android or Apple phone. But, ultimately, what we want to see is open hardware. So let's get to open hardware.
1227
01:28:49.614 --> 01:28:56.250
What's the goal here? What are we looking at? What? Real quick. A freak ask, is there an equivalent for all this for Apple Devices?
1228
01:28:57.989 --> 01:28:58.830
No. Just
1229
01:28:59.270 --> 01:29:01.850
no. Get a pick get a cheap Pixel and install
1230
01:29:02.185 --> 01:29:06.525
install Graphene or Kallax on it. There we go. On on
1231
01:29:07.065 --> 01:29:09.885
on an iPhone, you can't even install an application
1232
01:29:10.185 --> 01:29:11.565
separate from the App Store.
1233
01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:16.020
So when they decided, like, I I would never use Parler,
1234
01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:20.980
but when they decided that Parler wasn't allowed for iPhone users, you couldn't use it anymore.
1235
01:29:21.375 --> 01:29:25.554
At least even if you even if you use, like, completely Google, Android,
1236
01:29:26.175 --> 01:29:27.315
and you're just completely,
1237
01:29:28.735 --> 01:29:45.480
letting Google spy on whatever you want to let them spy on, whatever they wanna spy on, and you're just trusting them a 100%, they let you install Parler APK separate. Right? They let you when we had Bitcoin wallets banned on iPhone, you just couldn't install a Bitcoin wallet. Like, tomorrow, iPhone, Apple could tell you no.
1238
01:29:46.040 --> 01:29:50.300
Oh, here's the thing. Here's the real kicker, Matt. By default, in the iOS settings,
1239
01:29:51.400 --> 01:29:51.900
if
1240
01:29:52.440 --> 01:29:53.980
Apple chooses to
1241
01:29:54.405 --> 01:30:04.179
delete the app from their App Store, it will also delete the app from your phone, which is some real George Orwell 1984 shit. There is a setting to turn that off,
1242
01:30:04.719 --> 01:30:10.579
but by default, it is on. So if you guys are using any apps you think might get banned, I don't know, maybe Telegram,
1243
01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:14.965
they're trying to target that pretty heavily, you might wanna turn that setting off.
1244
01:30:16.545 --> 01:30:21.880
Yeah. What what do you think yeah. That that's the only reason I'm not using fully noted because,
1245
01:30:22.980 --> 01:30:32.875
it only works on iOS. Right? Yeah. I mean, it looks like so nice as far as the features go, but, yeah, not an iOS user. I'm sure other people use it. It sounds great.
1246
01:30:35.575 --> 01:30:39.719
So open hardware. Let's discuss open hardware. Yes. Let's get into it.
1247
01:30:40.199 --> 01:30:46.219
Is this is this me is this me petting unicorns again, or, like, is this something we can see
1248
01:30:46.520 --> 01:30:48.219
in reality anytime soon?
1249
01:30:49.145 --> 01:30:51.325
It depends on your time frame, but
1250
01:30:51.865 --> 01:30:53.085
I think I hope we
1251
01:30:53.385 --> 01:30:59.660
we approach it and then more products come out. Not Nam's just showing us one before the show. Nam, do you wanna talk about that one?
1252
01:31:00.120 --> 01:31:02.140
Yeah. So so this is this has been,
1253
01:31:02.815 --> 01:31:03.315
yeah,
1254
01:31:03.775 --> 01:31:09.315
advertised on on or I've came across it on on Twitter. It's called a bigger board, which is,
1255
01:31:10.014 --> 01:31:11.554
basically, there is so
1256
01:31:12.250 --> 01:31:15.150
we have, like, Intel manufacturing CPUs. We have,
1257
01:31:15.850 --> 01:31:22.785
AMD manufacturing CPUs, and then now ARM is coming up a lot, which is like in older as replies and older phones as well.
1258
01:31:23.165 --> 01:31:25.345
And then there is like a 4th
1259
01:31:27.870 --> 01:31:29.810
reasonably popular CPU architecture
1260
01:31:30.830 --> 01:31:36.610
coming to life. So popular that Bitcoin Core has a build for it.
1261
01:31:37.055 --> 01:31:38.595
And it runs Linux,
1262
01:31:39.695 --> 01:31:44.595
which is the operating system you want to use if you want to have any kind of reliability or verifiability.
1263
01:31:46.900 --> 01:31:50.980
And it is called a big o big o 5 or big o v, I think. It's probably
1264
01:31:51.940 --> 01:31:53.400
yeah. Big o v.
1265
01:31:54.020 --> 01:31:55.480
Big o board dot org
1266
01:31:57.635 --> 01:32:04.454
slashbigov is the is the website. You can register interest. Basically, it's a low cost board, which is, based on this open
1267
01:32:05.200 --> 01:32:10.500
architecture open CPU architecture called RISC 5 or RISC v. I'm not I'm not even sure.
1268
01:32:11.360 --> 01:32:13.780
And it will be in the ballpark of
1269
01:32:14.514 --> 01:32:15.014
100
1270
01:32:15.875 --> 01:32:17.974
USD. It has 4 gigabytes of RAM
1271
01:32:18.835 --> 01:32:19.494
and 2
1272
01:32:19.795 --> 01:32:27.080
2 cores of 1 gigahertz pro processor, which means that you can actually run Linux on it.
1273
01:32:28.020 --> 01:32:29.160
I think it would be,
1274
01:32:29.700 --> 01:32:32.520
like, comparable to, like, a Raspberry Pi 3, probably.
1275
01:32:34.094 --> 01:32:42.035
Certainly, we'd be able to well, not certainly, but but I I strongly hope that it will be able to run at least Bisco and Core. If you're lucky, it
1276
01:32:42.490 --> 01:32:44.750
could take, like, c lightning as well.
1277
01:32:45.050 --> 01:32:49.150
And, you know, looking forward to try it because this is the first accessible price
1278
01:32:49.610 --> 01:32:52.095
board which is based on this kind of
1279
01:32:52.575 --> 01:32:53.075
architecture,
1280
01:32:53.615 --> 01:32:54.435
which is which
1281
01:32:54.895 --> 01:32:57.315
is much more verifiable than than any other
1282
01:32:58.575 --> 01:33:02.310
chip manufacturers or first architecture users.
1283
01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:09.805
Yeah. That's a big thing, I think. But, it will take a couple of months to come
1284
01:33:10.305 --> 01:33:10.805
into
1285
01:33:11.305 --> 01:33:13.245
reality. It will be the 1st batches
1286
01:33:13.625 --> 01:33:17.885
will be coming in April, and then widely available from September.
1287
01:33:19.130 --> 01:33:20.510
Did did we have the link yet?
1288
01:33:21.050 --> 01:33:27.550
Because it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's up. It's up. So, yeah, check it out to register interest. You need to fill out a Google form.
1289
01:33:28.034 --> 01:33:32.215
They are not accepting Bitcoin, but it is proper open source hardware.
1290
01:33:33.074 --> 01:33:34.135
Yeah. Looks sick.
1291
01:33:36.040 --> 01:33:40.060
Nice. And and we got the link about how to prevent apps from being deleted,
1292
01:33:40.600 --> 01:33:46.385
in the chat. I mean, from iPhone and iPad in the chat. I also tweeted it if anyone's interested in that.
1293
01:33:46.764 --> 01:33:50.784
But, yeah, the b cord looks sick. I think I'm gonna put in an order for that.
1294
01:33:51.710 --> 01:33:57.250
You know, it's definitely a step up from the ARM chips that we have on, let's say, the Raspberry
1295
01:33:57.950 --> 01:33:59.890
Pi and, the ROC 64.
1296
01:34:00.865 --> 01:34:08.085
You know, it's just, like, good to have a chip architecture that that's open. It's it's not completely foolproof, you know, that there there's,
1297
01:34:09.820 --> 01:34:14.719
you know, places where, you know, bad stuff could lie, but having the architect
1298
01:34:15.179 --> 01:34:20.955
architecture of the chip itself be open is is incredible. And, you know, we don't really have another equivalent for that,
1299
01:34:21.335 --> 01:34:24.955
other than the open power systems, but those are, like, fully fledged
1300
01:34:25.820 --> 01:34:29.120
computers, and they're very expensive. They're so expensive.
1301
01:34:29.820 --> 01:34:33.840
Yeah. And, you know, it's really hard to get things running on there too.
1302
01:34:34.665 --> 01:34:35.165
And,
1303
01:34:35.704 --> 01:34:39.485
you know, it's just not on a single board computer like this thing is. So this is, like,
1304
01:34:40.105 --> 01:34:49.780
a really encouraging sign, that things are going in the right direction, and hopefully, we see more products like this as time goes on. I mean, so do you guys think like, do you think, like, realistically
1305
01:34:50.160 --> 01:34:53.815
that, like, a Raspberry Pi like, these Raspberry Pi nodes,
1306
01:34:54.355 --> 01:34:56.855
the proliferation of them is a risk to the network?
1307
01:34:57.554 --> 01:34:59.175
Or is this a purely,
1308
01:35:02.460 --> 01:35:05.900
you know, I I I feel like in our threat models, we tend to go a little bit
1309
01:35:06.380 --> 01:35:13.175
and we should. We should be adversarial about it, But is it really a practical issue for most people? Is it a practical issue for Bitcoiners?
1310
01:35:13.795 --> 01:35:19.650
It would be a a bit of a pain if it actually went down, but I don't think it actually risks the the network
1311
01:35:20.190 --> 01:35:24.990
long term. I think it'd be, like, a really bad day for us, but I I think we would,
1312
01:35:25.710 --> 01:35:26.930
ride around that issue.
1313
01:35:27.315 --> 01:35:29.815
So it's, like, you know, calls into question whether
1314
01:35:30.675 --> 01:35:33.635
it'd be even worse trying to coordinate an attack like this. It would,
1315
01:35:34.440 --> 01:35:38.139
know, it would be quite costly to to figure out how to execute it
1316
01:35:38.679 --> 01:35:42.205
and and get it done, and then at what cost, you know, like, points
1317
01:35:43.625 --> 01:35:47.485
the wrong chain for a little bit. You know, it'd have to be, like, part of some
1318
01:35:47.865 --> 01:35:51.325
crazy scheme hitting one entity or but,
1319
01:35:53.100 --> 01:35:58.880
yeah, long term, I don't I don't really think it's that big an issue. It's something to be mindful of and definitely something
1320
01:35:59.985 --> 01:36:03.605
to to consider as as these new products are coming on the market.
1321
01:36:04.545 --> 01:36:13.050
Yeah. I think it's it's rather it's it's not a systemic risk. Like, you know, like, there would be no, like, remote access en masse because all the network chips are compromised.
1322
01:36:14.550 --> 01:36:16.969
But it's an individual risk. So
1323
01:36:17.335 --> 01:36:17.835
don't
1324
01:36:18.295 --> 01:36:19.594
use a Raspberry
1325
01:36:21.014 --> 01:36:34.265
Pi for instead of a hardware wallet. Right? Because it that is not it is not not verifiable and it needs, especially so out of all the single board computers, the Raspberry Pi is
1326
01:36:35.225 --> 01:36:38.925
slightly worse because it needs a a binary blob
1327
01:36:41.305 --> 01:36:42.445
flashed onto
1328
01:36:43.390 --> 01:36:50.210
the SD card or well, it's it's mostly or even the SSD that's boost from that to be able to work, which
1329
01:36:50.935 --> 01:36:54.955
which runs an underlying operating system like the BIOS or UEFI
1330
01:36:55.574 --> 01:36:57.675
UEFI on the Intel machines
1331
01:36:58.870 --> 01:37:00.970
and which can even
1332
01:37:02.150 --> 01:37:06.730
tell or simulate things for the Linux running on top. So
1333
01:37:07.825 --> 01:37:08.325
if
1334
01:37:09.185 --> 01:37:09.685
someone
1335
01:37:10.225 --> 01:37:27.545
highly technically able takes a machine like this to a lab, then they would be definitely able to extract any kind of thing stored on it, run on it, or, you know, it's it's not a secured environment to that extent. Like, you cannot compare it to a cold card, for example. Right? Or,
1336
01:37:28.245 --> 01:37:29.625
even if it's air gapped.
1337
01:37:31.445 --> 01:37:40.960
But Well, that's when we air gap things. Right? When we air gap things, it's like the least you can do. Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So so for example, I'm I'm looking forward to a project of, of,
1338
01:37:41.635 --> 01:37:45.895
well, mine together with with other people, with with the RespBlitz and and with the,
1339
01:37:46.515 --> 01:38:00.409
with a friend of mine who we manufacture these these metal boxes for RespBlitz. But we do do a box for the quote card which is there will be there to house the quote card attached to the Raspberry Pi running a full node
1340
01:38:00.855 --> 01:38:02.395
and you just delegate
1341
01:38:02.775 --> 01:38:03.755
the signing
1342
01:38:04.135 --> 01:38:14.630
and the key storage to the actual quote card in well, not air gap, but in a in a well separated fashion and also running c k bunker, which you might be
1343
01:38:14.930 --> 01:38:16.390
might be aware of,
1344
01:38:18.155 --> 01:38:19.295
which is basically
1345
01:38:20.074 --> 01:38:20.735
the codecard
1346
01:38:21.195 --> 01:38:27.054
make 3 in a HSM mode, in a hardware security module mode, where you can just throw it on,
1347
01:38:27.520 --> 01:38:29.460
throw a PSVT on it and
1348
01:38:29.760 --> 01:38:32.260
give it predefined rules or verify
1349
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:34.740
on the fly by pressing buttons,
1350
01:38:35.680 --> 01:38:36.500
to sign
1351
01:38:37.155 --> 01:38:39.655
the transaction, the pre signed Bitcoin transaction
1352
01:38:40.114 --> 01:38:43.094
on the hardware wallet on the code card,
1353
01:38:43.475 --> 01:38:45.975
instead of having it signed on the
1354
01:38:46.670 --> 01:38:47.410
on the,
1355
01:38:48.190 --> 01:38:53.650
Raspberry Pi Nord itself. So, you know, basically removing that trust issue
1356
01:38:54.030 --> 01:38:56.115
and placing it on the court card
1357
01:38:57.315 --> 01:38:59.235
in terms of, you know, in terms of,
1358
01:38:59.875 --> 01:39:00.855
risking funds
1359
01:39:01.395 --> 01:39:02.055
to that.
1360
01:39:03.770 --> 01:39:04.270
And
1361
01:39:05.530 --> 01:39:08.670
so and there are many softwares which will be,
1362
01:39:09.530 --> 01:39:10.429
able to
1363
01:39:10.835 --> 01:39:16.135
to so there's lots of development which is pointing to this direction that this can be realistically done
1364
01:39:16.835 --> 01:39:18.614
more and more easier, like LND
1365
01:39:19.155 --> 01:39:21.929
and like c lightning working with presigned
1366
01:39:22.310 --> 01:39:28.810
Bitcoin transactions and being able to delegate the signing outside from their hot wallets running.
1367
01:39:29.305 --> 01:39:30.045
And also,
1368
01:39:30.425 --> 01:39:33.405
join markets has a huge support in this.
1369
01:39:33.864 --> 01:39:38.205
I think the next major release will have things like, being able to pass
1370
01:39:39.110 --> 01:39:39.710
a pre,
1371
01:39:40.150 --> 01:39:41.370
constructed PSBT
1372
01:39:41.989 --> 01:39:45.050
to the Python script, which is a joint market, and
1373
01:39:46.105 --> 01:39:54.284
make it sign. And then the other way as well that it can construct the PSVT, which you can then sign externally so your keys won't be stored
1374
01:39:54.820 --> 01:39:56.599
inside the potentially,
1375
01:39:57.860 --> 01:39:59.320
backdoors or compromised
1376
01:40:00.260 --> 01:40:09.115
Raspberry Pi or other kind of Windows machine or whatever. But you can you can take it and you can air gap sign it if you want on a in a quote card, for example.
1377
01:40:11.690 --> 01:40:14.510
Yeah. So Yeah. You just you just need
1378
01:40:16.090 --> 01:40:20.430
to take these things where where where they belong. So you are not running production
1379
01:40:22.165 --> 01:40:22.665
environment
1380
01:40:23.125 --> 01:40:27.625
on a Raspberry Pi, and you are not making it widely available for the Internet either.
1381
01:40:28.570 --> 01:40:32.350
And that's not what that is not what's happening with these home node projects.
1382
01:40:33.530 --> 01:40:43.955
So Ultimate ultimately, right, whether it's open source hardware, whether everyone's whether it's open hardware or open software, like, what we wanna see is we wanna see it be
1383
01:40:45.340 --> 01:40:46.159
easy enough
1384
01:40:46.540 --> 01:40:48.239
to be to to be verified
1385
01:40:48.860 --> 01:40:49.360
Mhmm.
1386
01:40:49.739 --> 01:40:51.520
By advanced users at least.
1387
01:40:52.225 --> 01:40:57.525
You you wanna be in a situation where where it's provable and verifiable, the claims that are made.
1388
01:40:58.305 --> 01:40:59.365
We we have
1389
01:41:00.570 --> 01:41:03.070
a a freak in the comments that's going by some person.
1390
01:41:04.170 --> 01:41:06.330
Could be anyone. No one knows who it is.
1391
01:41:07.050 --> 01:41:11.225
Asking me because I've recommended in the past Michael Basel for privacy,
1392
01:41:11.685 --> 01:41:17.864
and and he says he prefers iPhones. Right? And and and this is where we go back to that same that same trade off balance,
1393
01:41:19.590 --> 01:41:22.090
where, like, iPhones might be a more
1394
01:41:22.710 --> 01:41:24.330
private option for 90%
1395
01:41:24.630 --> 01:41:25.290
of people,
1396
01:41:25.695 --> 01:41:31.555
but it's a custodial private option. You're you're there's custodial privacy. In Bitcoin, we like to talk about,
1397
01:41:32.575 --> 01:41:33.075
custodial
1398
01:41:34.870 --> 01:41:36.010
ownership of coins.
1399
01:41:36.630 --> 01:41:40.409
You also have custodial privacy where you're trusting an entity with your privacy.
1400
01:41:41.985 --> 01:41:51.045
Apple says they care about our privacy. They say they prioritize it. There's no way for us to prove it. There's no way for us to verify it. Even an advanced user can't do that.
1401
01:41:52.050 --> 01:41:54.869
So you you end up in a trusted relationship,
1402
01:41:55.889 --> 01:41:56.869
and that can help
1403
01:41:58.050 --> 01:42:06.585
maybe the average user increase their their situation. I mean, we see it with with ledger hardware wallets, if if you wanna talk about in the Bitcoin space. Mhmm.
1404
01:42:07.525 --> 01:42:22.755
Maybe that's, you know, better for for 90% of people, the overwhelming majority of people. But at the end of the day, if you really want a trust minimized option, you need to be able to prove it and verify it yourself or at least have an advanced user do that. So we wanna see we have software that you can do that with.
1405
01:42:23.535 --> 01:42:29.470
That's what the open source software movement is, and we don't have we don't really have hardware that you can do that with yet.
1406
01:42:30.090 --> 01:42:34.715
So, ideally, what we wanna see is hardware where you're able to do that. Short of that,
1407
01:42:35.275 --> 01:42:37.855
as OpenAM said, we do like to air gap things,
1408
01:42:38.875 --> 01:42:43.775
which is you just don't connect it to the Internet. So we had Randy McMillan in the comments mention routers.
1409
01:42:44.239 --> 01:42:45.860
Routers are a fucking mess.
1410
01:42:46.480 --> 01:42:46.980
Yeah.
1411
01:42:47.760 --> 01:43:04.670
The average user is using a router that is fucking completely closed source and supplied by their monopoly Internet service provider that are assholes. They are like the worst companies that we ever interact with. You know, you got like your fucking gas provider, your electric provider, and your fucking cable company, and they're all fucking horrible.
1412
01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:08.910
And they provide you a router that can see all of your Internet traffic.
1413
01:43:09.645 --> 01:43:11.345
Everything you fucking do on the Internet.
1414
01:43:12.285 --> 01:43:17.585
So I mean, we can talk about, you know, trying to push for more open hardware in that respect. But, ultimately,
1415
01:43:18.010 --> 01:43:24.429
if you're talking about securing funds, securing information, you just keep it offline. You just don't put it online to begin with.
1416
01:43:25.505 --> 01:43:32.565
And that that's what cold storage the concept behind cold storage is all about. You can have, like, the most insecure setup, but if you never put it online,
1417
01:43:33.220 --> 01:43:41.000
at least that the malicious individual needs to come into your your your your home or your office or whatever and and have physical access
1418
01:43:41.435 --> 01:43:46.255
to to compromise you. We do not have that liberty with Lightning. I see someone mentioning it in here.
1419
01:43:46.715 --> 01:43:49.135
Lightning is, by default, is a hot wallet. Right?
1420
01:43:50.280 --> 01:43:51.340
Well, it is
1421
01:43:52.600 --> 01:43:57.340
a scale. Right? So there are, like, 6 different keys in a in an l in the
1422
01:43:59.695 --> 01:44:10.370
wallet, actually. And, I mean, the main two things the 2 main things. I mean, we can differentiate 3 at least very easily. That one key, which is completely different,
1423
01:44:11.070 --> 01:44:11.630
which is
1424
01:44:12.030 --> 01:44:16.985
controls the on chain wallet. You don't need to use that at all. You can fund
1425
01:44:17.525 --> 01:44:18.505
your lightning
1426
01:44:19.045 --> 01:44:23.945
channels from an outs from the outside, and it's very, very, very, very,
1427
01:44:24.560 --> 01:44:30.660
it's not difficult. It's quite easy, actually, but it's very important because you have full coin control and you don't get
1428
01:44:31.040 --> 01:44:35.775
into any any issues with the, you know, chain surveillance and
1429
01:44:36.955 --> 01:44:38.015
tracking the,
1430
01:44:38.555 --> 01:44:41.920
peeling chain, etcetera, which has been mentioned in the privacy article recently.
1431
01:44:43.420 --> 01:44:47.600
So those those are keys which you can already decouple and even air gap.
1432
01:44:48.219 --> 01:44:50.800
There are keys which are required to open and close channels.
1433
01:44:51.165 --> 01:44:53.264
Those are only needed occasionally.
1434
01:44:53.645 --> 01:44:55.585
So I mean if the software would,
1435
01:44:56.364 --> 01:44:58.145
support it and I'm sure it will
1436
01:44:58.800 --> 01:45:01.380
as it being developed, those can be
1437
01:45:02.160 --> 01:45:04.420
taken offline after they have been online.
1438
01:45:05.815 --> 01:45:08.554
But the keys which are actually signing the
1439
01:45:08.855 --> 01:45:15.440
transactions, if you are running a routing note, those needs to be hot because otherwise, you know, you wouldn't wouldn't be able to to go,
1440
01:45:16.060 --> 01:45:20.240
you wouldn't be able to forward payments. But they don't need to be able
1441
01:45:20.700 --> 01:45:25.335
to pay out. So there could be there are different permissions needed to
1442
01:45:26.035 --> 01:45:30.890
reduce your the balance on your note or to forward a payment which which only,
1443
01:45:31.530 --> 01:45:35.550
I mean, worst case, the balance stays the same but usually increases with the fees earned.
1444
01:45:37.905 --> 01:45:44.085
Yeah. That's that's that's too light in what I saw. There there could be, you know, plenty of developments there.
1445
01:45:44.784 --> 01:45:45.844
There will be.
1446
01:45:50.210 --> 01:45:55.350
Yeah. I I know know the Lightning Labs guys are working on some solutions to
1447
01:45:56.275 --> 01:46:10.500
try to try to have some sort of hybrid model wallet and and not have so many phones hot. So we'll see how that plays out. It's gonna be very interesting. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement there. Oh my god. So much fucking nuance. But, anyway, we're making progress. Right?
1448
01:46:11.635 --> 01:46:22.250
Yeah, man. It's it's like, you know, on Bitcoin, everything moves really slow. Right? And, you know, we we try not to break anything. And, lightning is the opposite. Like, things are moving
1449
01:46:22.630 --> 01:46:30.395
at, like, a 1000000 miles an hour. So it's gonna be like that for a while longer until, this thing really starts to slow down and ossify.
1450
01:46:30.935 --> 01:46:34.795
But there's a benefit to that. You know? We could keep stuff on the first layer,
1451
01:46:35.335 --> 01:46:35.995
you know,
1452
01:46:36.455 --> 01:46:37.335
nice and,
1453
01:46:37.975 --> 01:46:39.400
not breaking, which is great.
1454
01:46:40.360 --> 01:46:42.840
So, we have a new section of,
1455
01:46:43.239 --> 01:46:43.900
the show,
1456
01:46:44.920 --> 01:46:46.620
titled questions from 6102.
1457
01:46:48.375 --> 01:46:54.395
And he sends he sends questions ahead of time like he just dropped a question in. We're not gonna get to Watchtower so quickly.
1458
01:46:54.775 --> 01:46:59.850
I didn't think he was gonna be in the comments, so he actually sent these questions ahead of time. So the first question is,
1459
01:47:00.870 --> 01:47:04.090
what do they what do you guys see for the future of joint market?
1460
01:47:04.585 --> 01:47:10.765
Will it slowly grow in popularity as tools improve or remain a more niche tool? We'll start with OpenOps because,
1461
01:47:11.545 --> 01:47:16.380
he's kind of dedicated himself to to making the UX easier for join market.
1462
01:47:17.480 --> 01:47:22.725
Well, yes. Because I love to use it, and it's it's such a versatile tool that, you know, I cannot recommend it enough.
1463
01:47:23.765 --> 01:47:24.665
It it comes,
1464
01:47:25.845 --> 01:47:34.400
you know, it comes with a short a steep but short learning curve. But after you have mastered it, you have you have a wallet which gives you privacy
1465
01:47:34.940 --> 01:47:36.080
and gives you perfect,
1466
01:47:37.420 --> 01:47:40.160
coin control, and you can construct the
1467
01:47:40.815 --> 01:47:43.875
any transactions you like. You can use page join. You can use
1468
01:47:44.255 --> 01:47:45.074
coin joins,
1469
01:47:45.454 --> 01:47:48.594
and you can pay with coin join and
1470
01:47:51.770 --> 01:47:55.710
well, a lot lot lot of other things which are hidden in the in the scripts.
1471
01:47:56.570 --> 01:47:58.590
So the future I mean, the future is
1472
01:47:59.025 --> 01:48:01.525
that it is continued to be developed since
1473
01:48:01.985 --> 01:48:13.890
6 years now, and there is no stop in the development. Like, you know, if you look back how was it 5 years ago, it is absolutely not the same how it how it is now. And also it's just been changed
1474
01:48:14.350 --> 01:48:16.565
to be to default to
1475
01:48:17.505 --> 01:48:20.485
native Segwit addresses. So you have some,
1476
01:48:23.400 --> 01:48:31.500
not only you have some fee savings there, but now it is much easier to use it as the external wallet for
1477
01:48:31.915 --> 01:48:34.095
your lightning node because
1478
01:48:34.555 --> 01:48:40.320
that's that's what is most useful in it. And that's why I'm that's why I'm trying to kind of
1479
01:48:42.079 --> 01:48:59.179
explain or or I will definitely need to write this up in in more detail how how to do it. But you have a selection of different size of coins, different size UTXOs in your joint market wallet, which is which are, like, individually coin joined to a to a different level. And you can
1480
01:48:59.560 --> 01:49:01.420
pick and choose 1 and just open,
1481
01:49:03.239 --> 01:49:04.060
a lightning
1482
01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:05.820
channel from that.
1483
01:49:06.199 --> 01:49:06.699
And
1484
01:49:07.225 --> 01:49:08.445
the drone market developers,
1485
01:49:08.905 --> 01:49:11.165
like especially VoxLink, who is the most,
1486
01:49:11.785 --> 01:49:14.285
kind of active, who is coordinating the project currently,
1487
01:49:15.870 --> 01:49:19.170
is is quite quite interested in the in that direction as well.
1488
01:49:20.750 --> 01:49:21.250
To,
1489
01:49:21.950 --> 01:49:26.965
you know, use the audit use audit tools available to make make PageOn more inter,
1490
01:49:27.825 --> 01:49:29.445
compatible with other implementations
1491
01:49:29.825 --> 01:49:30.485
and also,
1492
01:49:32.100 --> 01:49:37.719
you know, pull enlightening as much as possible. There is also the work with with working with PSBTs,
1493
01:49:38.980 --> 01:49:40.040
which allows
1494
01:49:40.565 --> 01:49:42.425
either external signing of
1495
01:49:43.525 --> 01:49:44.744
transactions which are
1496
01:49:45.125 --> 01:49:47.784
constructed by joint markets or the other way around
1497
01:49:48.400 --> 01:49:52.340
to have joint market signed transactions which are constructed outside.
1498
01:49:53.679 --> 01:49:54.980
And then there is
1499
01:49:55.635 --> 01:50:04.890
in terms of what would really be a game changer is that there is an API in the works as well. I mean, it is it is a lot of work and it's structural changes.
1500
01:50:05.750 --> 01:50:09.690
Right? For and but what would that mean is that you could build,
1501
01:50:12.355 --> 01:50:15.255
other applications on top, which would just
1502
01:50:16.675 --> 01:50:17.415
call into
1503
01:50:17.955 --> 01:50:20.935
the draw market API running on your node
1504
01:50:21.360 --> 01:50:22.100
and you
1505
01:50:23.200 --> 01:50:23.700
could,
1506
01:50:24.920 --> 01:50:39.410
you know, coin join on the fly or use it as in a mobile wallet, etcetera. I mean, that is you know, it it it it takes a lot of time and there is plenty of plenty of things which are which are being done. Will it be niche? I think,
1507
01:50:40.370 --> 01:50:44.150
you know, Vita before Snow White and Taproot getting widely accepted
1508
01:50:44.770 --> 01:50:45.670
and we get
1509
01:50:48.295 --> 01:50:49.595
a huge take up in adoption,
1510
01:50:50.215 --> 01:50:51.035
I don't
1511
01:50:51.495 --> 01:50:51.995
see
1512
01:50:52.535 --> 01:50:53.435
coin joints
1513
01:50:53.950 --> 01:50:54.850
to be
1514
01:50:55.310 --> 01:50:55.810
viable
1515
01:50:56.110 --> 01:51:01.890
and to be available for everyone because it just it will be just getting too expensive.
1516
01:51:02.990 --> 01:51:03.490
So
1517
01:51:03.905 --> 01:51:05.365
it will be always a niche.
1518
01:51:05.745 --> 01:51:07.845
And that's why a lot of,
1519
01:51:08.385 --> 01:51:14.550
so these tech techniques which are hidden and not appearing as, like, huge transactions on the blockchain are very important,
1520
01:51:15.010 --> 01:51:16.150
which can be
1521
01:51:16.770 --> 01:51:18.870
pay joins, can be coin swaps, can be,
1522
01:51:19.810 --> 01:51:24.295
lightning general opens and closes and submarine swaps and things like that are
1523
01:51:25.554 --> 01:51:27.974
much more important because they are also,
1524
01:51:29.795 --> 01:51:34.800
breaking the common owner ownership hero heuristic, which we are again we we are going against,
1525
01:51:35.180 --> 01:51:36.700
but they are not,
1526
01:51:37.260 --> 01:51:37.760
wasting,
1527
01:51:38.540 --> 01:51:39.680
block space basically.
1528
01:51:42.605 --> 01:51:43.105
So,
1529
01:51:43.645 --> 01:51:48.225
yeah, I see joint market being you know staying very versatile and you know
1530
01:51:49.840 --> 01:52:00.315
being a niche as well, but then it is finding its, you know, place and we'll continue to do the thing. Yeah. Evan, you wouldn't be my boy if you didn't have a strong opinion here.
1531
01:52:00.615 --> 01:52:01.595
Hit us with it.
1532
01:52:02.135 --> 01:52:02.955
I think,
1533
01:52:03.790 --> 01:52:09.890
you know, it's it's very great to see the UI become more usable. Like, I real I love what you guys have done with Rash Fi blips.
1534
01:52:10.270 --> 01:52:14.125
But I really don't see we're gonna think we're gonna see a lot of increased usage,
1535
01:52:15.305 --> 01:52:15.805
on
1536
01:52:18.505 --> 01:52:20.045
on the market unless
1537
01:52:20.680 --> 01:52:29.740
there's, like, someone creates some sort of, like, custodial middleman service for this thing where they could eat some of the fees by doing it in bulk
1538
01:52:30.395 --> 01:52:38.735
and, you know, provide, like, some sort of interface where, you know, you could just, like, deposit your coins on there. And and you don't have to go through the complexities of,
1539
01:52:39.550 --> 01:52:43.170
you know, just running your own node and connecting it to join market like that.
1540
01:52:43.790 --> 01:52:50.275
You know, however, you know, hopefully, people are able to iterate on the software that exists today and make, you know, more usable
1541
01:52:50.895 --> 01:52:52.275
user friendly solutions.
1542
01:52:52.975 --> 01:52:56.195
But, you know, it's really an uphill battle. I mean,
1543
01:52:56.790 --> 01:53:05.050
we're quite fortunate to have the solutions that we have right now. This wasn't the same story as it was you've been, like, you know, a couple years ago.
1544
01:53:05.655 --> 01:53:05.975
And,
1545
01:53:06.695 --> 01:53:09.675
you know, as far as CoinJoin go, I'm really excited
1546
01:53:10.215 --> 01:53:18.100
for people to keep cranking out on JoinMarket, for people that keep cranking out on Samurai and Whirlpool, which is, you know, become a really solid solution.
1547
01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:25.575
And I'm really excited to see, what the Wasabi guys do as far as not even not even just their new interface,
1548
01:53:26.115 --> 01:53:28.615
but their new implementation. And Wabi Sabi.
1549
01:53:29.235 --> 01:53:33.360
Wabi savvy. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm really excited for those guys to
1550
01:53:33.820 --> 01:53:37.120
learn from their mistakes and build, like, an even better,
1551
01:53:37.660 --> 01:53:47.675
product. So, you know, should really take solace in the fact that there's a lot of competition right now. And What people don't realize is is people are, like, I'm bearish on
1552
01:53:48.280 --> 01:53:49.260
all this CoinJoin
1553
01:53:49.640 --> 01:53:50.140
competition,
1554
01:53:51.320 --> 01:53:52.760
that that all these different,
1555
01:53:54.280 --> 01:54:01.565
you know, tools are competing with each other, and there's, like, a ton of anger and and, fighting on on social media about it.
1556
01:54:02.025 --> 01:54:07.140
That is super fucking bullish. Like, 2 years ago, we didn't have multiple platforms to fight over.
1557
01:54:07.600 --> 01:54:11.300
It was just joint market. The only thing that existed was joint market.
1558
01:54:11.755 --> 01:54:19.535
Yeah. So so I wanna see more competition here. I like that there's a business model associated with it. I mean, the thing the reason I was super bullish on joint market,
1559
01:54:20.130 --> 01:54:23.270
originally when it first came out, it was first announced,
1560
01:54:24.130 --> 01:54:30.995
in development was was this idea that it provided a financial incentive to provide liquidity. Right? Which is we're all about incentives
1561
01:54:31.615 --> 01:54:34.115
in the Bitcoin land. Like, you wanna have strong incentives
1562
01:54:35.719 --> 01:54:37.260
that that that reward,
1563
01:54:38.600 --> 01:54:41.420
expected behavior, behavior that we wanna see more of.
1564
01:54:43.015 --> 01:54:46.715
Joint Market does that on a more distributed scale, but but both,
1565
01:54:47.255 --> 01:54:52.449
Samurai Whirlpool and Wasabi have shown that there's an incentive for centralized companies,
1566
01:54:53.630 --> 01:54:54.610
just like Signal
1567
01:54:55.070 --> 01:54:56.849
or or WhatsApp or something,
1568
01:54:57.475 --> 01:55:01.335
to provide a privacy focused tool and make money off of it.
1569
01:55:03.315 --> 01:55:08.850
There there there's a demand there, and then they have an incentive to try and provide a superior privacy product.
1570
01:55:09.150 --> 01:55:20.965
I think, ultimately, what we need to see is we need to see it. If it stays niche, if CoinJoin stays niche, if PayJoint stays niche, we have lost. Like, we need to see it in our everyday apps,
1571
01:55:22.060 --> 01:55:23.120
And I don't think
1572
01:55:24.060 --> 01:55:30.235
that's so hard to see. Like, I I think the samurai guys were on top of it to begin with.
1573
01:55:30.715 --> 01:55:38.494
Mhmm. Maybe not on execution, but on concept. Mhmm. This idea that we're not gonna see the changes we wanna see on the protocol layer.
1574
01:55:39.460 --> 01:55:47.240
We're not gonna see those change. As a privacy focused person, we're just not gonna if you wanna see privacy on the protocol level, it's just not gonna happen.
1575
01:55:48.855 --> 01:55:53.675
We might get certain little, you know, fundamental improvements, stuff like Taproot,
1576
01:55:55.050 --> 01:55:56.670
and and hopefully, ultimately,
1577
01:55:57.850 --> 01:55:59.950
you know, cross input signature aggregation.
1578
01:56:00.330 --> 01:56:02.750
But we wanna see this on the app level,
1579
01:56:03.370 --> 01:56:04.510
and I think
1580
01:56:05.035 --> 01:56:11.135
it's possible. Like, I I think, like, even if you talk about something like BlueWallet, which isn't like a privacy focused mobile wallet,
1581
01:56:11.995 --> 01:56:14.255
they've taken into into
1582
01:56:15.180 --> 01:56:17.760
like, account, like, most best practices.
1583
01:56:19.020 --> 01:56:20.960
And if they wanna keep getting recommended,
1584
01:56:21.820 --> 01:56:28.054
like, they're gonna have to add privacy tools in there. Like, they have PayJoin. I think they have the most recent BIP 78 PayJoin.
1585
01:56:28.355 --> 01:56:29.255
They have Lightning.
1586
01:56:30.170 --> 01:56:33.150
Yeah. And they have Lightning. Right? Lightning is is is arguably
1587
01:56:33.850 --> 01:56:34.350
License.
1588
01:56:35.210 --> 01:56:39.630
Is arguably our end user privacy tool that we're hoping for. But I I think,
1589
01:56:40.635 --> 01:56:43.295
you know, maybe, like, certain things could
1590
01:56:43.755 --> 01:56:45.454
could could be enough for us
1591
01:56:47.230 --> 01:56:50.370
if it wasn't for for insidious k KYC.
1592
01:56:51.230 --> 01:56:58.074
So, like, we're we're, like, we're, like, set up in a worse position because the majority of Bitcoin users are coming in through KYC onramps.
1593
01:56:58.614 --> 01:57:01.434
They're being, like, tagged and bagged as they come in.
1594
01:57:01.974 --> 01:57:05.880
So all of your transactions are with tagged and bagged people. Right?
1595
01:57:06.340 --> 01:57:08.680
You have a bunch of deer meeting up in the forest.
1596
01:57:09.300 --> 01:57:13.320
Those deer probably wouldn't get identified, but they all have trackers on them.
1597
01:57:13.975 --> 01:57:16.635
So, obviously, they're getting they're getting identified. Right?
1598
01:57:17.335 --> 01:57:22.555
So so we have to go above and beyond because of this KYC hellhole that we've kind of
1599
01:57:23.010 --> 01:57:28.630
found ourselves in. I mean, for no fault of our own, it's just what's gonna happen. Like, our whole our whole world is KYC.
1600
01:57:29.410 --> 01:57:44.660
And I think we get past that ultimately through, you know, instead of buying Bitcoin, you earn Bitcoin. Instead of selling Bitcoin, you spend it. But, it it's gonna be a a long process. So, I mean, I this is a great I think this is a great time to transition to Lightning. On Lightning, I think,
1601
01:57:45.040 --> 01:57:48.820
ultimately, the sender gets a a massive privacy improvement.
1602
01:57:49.825 --> 01:57:55.365
I I've talked about on the pod that I'm the asshole that when someone sends me a donation or a tip
1603
01:57:56.900 --> 01:57:58.440
and tells me they did it,
1604
01:57:58.980 --> 01:58:07.695
and they're like, I wanna buy you a bottle of whiskey or something, I do, like, a little minor chain analysis of them, And I tell them I tell them things about their bag,
1605
01:58:08.074 --> 01:58:09.535
just to try and teach them.
1606
01:58:09.915 --> 01:58:17.430
If they pay me with lightning, I can't easily do that. So for a sender, lightning gives you an additional privacy improvement right off the fucking bat.
1607
01:58:18.050 --> 01:58:18.870
For the receiver,
1608
01:58:19.170 --> 01:58:24.205
it's not the case. There's a ton of fucking nuance in trying to receive Bitcoin privately through lightning.
1609
01:58:25.065 --> 01:58:26.125
We have a recent
1610
01:58:26.905 --> 01:58:27.945
paper on,
1611
01:58:28.425 --> 01:58:29.245
this subject
1612
01:58:29.860 --> 01:58:30.840
that came out.
1613
01:58:31.300 --> 01:58:40.744
I put this in the the video if you're watching the livestream. If you're one of the few freaks watching livestream, we appreciate you. An empirical analysis of privacy in the Lightning Network,
1614
01:58:41.125 --> 01:58:41.945
that's arcsiv.org/abs/2003.12470.
1615
01:58:47.270 --> 01:58:48.090
You may have
1616
01:58:48.790 --> 01:58:53.449
seen this paper in the past. They recently updated it, which is why it's being brought up now.
1617
01:58:54.070 --> 01:58:54.890
This was
1618
01:58:55.815 --> 01:59:05.550
a question as a part of 61 zero two question hour. Have you had a chance to read the recent lightning privacy paper? He didn't ask, but I assume what is your opinion on that?
1619
01:59:11.815 --> 01:59:15.034
Can I start? Yeah. Yeah. Hit us with it. Open arms.
1620
01:59:15.494 --> 01:59:15.994
So
1621
01:59:16.534 --> 01:59:18.554
yeah. I just, put
1622
01:59:19.349 --> 01:59:21.050
a link as well about
1623
01:59:23.670 --> 01:59:26.250
slides from a presentation which I've done in HCCP,
1624
01:59:27.190 --> 01:59:27.690
2020,
1625
01:59:28.565 --> 01:59:33.705
which you can download and, you know, have a look. There are a couple of things mentioned there which are part of this
1626
01:59:34.085 --> 01:59:39.179
article and, I mean, also been triggered by the previous version version of this of of this article.
1627
01:59:41.719 --> 01:59:42.520
Also, just,
1628
01:59:43.079 --> 01:59:46.780
one comment before I forget about. So paying with lightning
1629
01:59:47.764 --> 01:59:48.164
quite,
1630
01:59:48.565 --> 01:59:52.824
private and please do it, especially, like, through multiple hops,
1631
01:59:53.525 --> 01:59:59.210
when your peer peer not not seeing your channel balance directly is is absolutely great.
1632
02:00:01.590 --> 02:00:06.410
The because because of the onion routing, so it means that you can only see the neighbors
1633
02:00:07.355 --> 02:00:11.535
one hop or can only see the neighbors and cannot see, you know, 2 hops,
1634
02:00:12.315 --> 02:00:14.575
away either forward or backwards.
1635
02:00:15.595 --> 02:00:16.540
So that's why,
1636
02:00:17.100 --> 02:00:20.640
basically, why a payment would be could be quite private
1637
02:00:21.100 --> 02:00:26.400
unless you are surveying and separating the wall network every 30 seconds which you go into regarding
1638
02:00:27.085 --> 02:00:27.585
paper.
1639
02:00:27.965 --> 02:00:28.465
Receiving
1640
02:00:28.925 --> 02:00:40.650
on lightning, you don't need to. You can receive on chain. You should use a new address every time. You can use a pay name. You can use your BTC pay server. Just receive on chain. And
1641
02:00:41.165 --> 02:00:54.120
when you are running Lightning, you have every all of your spending money on Lightning, you can pay to an on chain address. That is called a submarine swap, and you have multiple ways to do it. The
1642
02:00:54.660 --> 02:00:56.840
l and d Lightning Labs do
1643
02:00:57.315 --> 02:00:58.615
run a loop service.
1644
02:00:58.995 --> 02:01:01.735
It it is integrated in, like, RTL,
1645
02:01:02.515 --> 02:01:06.780
the most, popular kind of node management interface. You have both exchange,
1646
02:01:07.400 --> 02:01:08.139
which is
1647
02:01:09.000 --> 02:01:09.500
sorry?
1648
02:01:10.040 --> 02:01:14.780
Sorry. I was just saying that RTL is so great. I I use it when you keep my node on my desktop.
1649
02:01:15.305 --> 02:01:17.805
Absolutely. Absolutely. And then interface?
1650
02:01:18.265 --> 02:01:20.045
Yeah. There there is there is a similar
1651
02:01:22.105 --> 02:01:24.205
so to loop, there is a similar
1652
02:01:25.580 --> 02:01:27.280
thing which is called botz.exchange.
1653
02:01:27.660 --> 02:01:29.120
It's it's, bots,
1654
02:01:29.580 --> 02:01:33.680
b o l t z dot exchange, which is a sovereign swap service
1655
02:01:34.094 --> 02:01:37.875
which where you can pay a lightning invoice and it sends out,
1656
02:01:39.135 --> 02:01:43.635
an on chain payment for you. Again, there's, like, half a percent fee, but that's a fee
1657
02:01:44.079 --> 02:01:44.579
not
1658
02:01:44.960 --> 02:01:50.500
for not just for the service but you gain tremendous amount of privacy there. So if you
1659
02:01:51.125 --> 02:01:51.625
pay
1660
02:01:52.565 --> 02:01:53.705
your mobile VPN
1661
02:01:54.165 --> 02:01:55.305
and you don't go
1662
02:01:55.845 --> 02:01:56.585
through the,
1663
02:01:57.125 --> 02:02:00.949
you know, third party lightning service, You can go to boss.exchange,
1664
02:02:02.929 --> 02:02:12.125
pay your lightning invoice, and have the final amount sent on chain from their wallet has will have nothing to do with you in terms of on chain
1665
02:02:12.585 --> 02:02:13.085
footprint.
1666
02:02:13.385 --> 02:02:14.425
Right? So
1667
02:02:15.840 --> 02:02:18.100
and if you there you go. My 2 sets,
1668
02:02:18.560 --> 02:02:23.785
the developer of of RTLs is that both is coming to RTLs. Well, great. So, you know, the more the better.
1669
02:02:24.745 --> 02:02:27.865
So I just want to want to say that that you can
1670
02:02:28.425 --> 02:02:32.685
these are interchangeable. It's all Bitcoin. You can receive continue to receive
1671
02:02:33.420 --> 02:02:36.480
payments on chain while you are paying everything on lightning.
1672
02:02:38.860 --> 02:02:41.039
So okay sorry about that it's just
1673
02:02:41.615 --> 02:02:49.395
something which which people do not really see. And all all the mobile address mobile wallets like Breeze, Phoenix,
1674
02:02:49.695 --> 02:02:50.835
even wallets of Satoshi
1675
02:02:52.630 --> 02:02:53.130
do
1676
02:02:54.150 --> 02:03:00.125
support paying to an on chain address straight from the lightning balance, and that is again a submarine swap.
1677
02:03:04.925 --> 02:03:07.185
So that's I mean, that's a long
1678
02:03:07.590 --> 02:03:09.110
thing to please please,
1679
02:03:10.070 --> 02:03:21.555
tell me to stop at some point. Yeah. We are we're I'm muted. I'm muted. So you don't think you don't think that people should receive should should even try receiving privately on lightning right now?
1680
02:03:22.495 --> 02:03:32.370
Well, it's it's it's not very possible at the moment. No. I mean, you can use a custodial wallet. Right? And this goes back to the custodial privacy that we were talking about with the iPhone. Right? Like, I could use
1681
02:03:32.764 --> 02:03:48.500
probably the most private way for me to accept Bitcoin is to use, like, a wallet of Satoshi or something, which is kind of I mean, I'm on lightning. Yeah. Or just another wallet, like, you know, even if you, like, use Phoenix or something which is not actually custodial, but there is some custody of privacy there.
1682
02:03:49.520 --> 02:03:52.685
But and someone asked, is lightning a mixer? Well,
1683
02:03:53.305 --> 02:04:00.030
like, a cost to your lightning node, yes, it is quite the same as a mixer because you throw in money and you take out another one.
1684
02:04:00.989 --> 02:04:06.929
Another kind of sets even on either on chain or or or through lightning. So, I mean, there is
1685
02:04:07.725 --> 02:04:09.585
in terms of the way of working,
1686
02:04:11.565 --> 02:04:13.105
there are some parallels there
1687
02:04:13.405 --> 02:04:17.190
except you call it custodial lightning wallet and not a centralized mixer.
1688
02:04:20.530 --> 02:04:22.870
But, yeah, just just don't go custodial.
1689
02:04:25.205 --> 02:04:32.905
But that's what I'm saying. That's not really a good argument. I mean, I I don't I don't know if on lightning, if don't go custodial is a good argument. Like, if I'm withdrawing,
1690
02:04:35.140 --> 02:04:35.640
from
1691
02:04:36.260 --> 02:04:44.264
from go yeah. Don't go custodial with significant amounts. If you're withdrawing from a custody exchange I mean, look, this is where the like,
1692
02:04:45.125 --> 02:04:51.225
I wish there was no nuance. If if you're withdrawing from a cust custodial exchange let's say we're withdrawing from Bitfinex.
1693
02:04:51.820 --> 02:04:52.320
Mhmm.
1694
02:04:52.780 --> 02:05:03.165
And and and I have a Lightning node that I don't want Bitfinex to know about or the rest of the world. Yeah. And I'm KYC with Bitfinex, then I would draw it to Wallet Satoshi, then I pay from Wallet to Satoshi to my node.
1695
02:05:03.465 --> 02:05:05.805
Wallet to Satoshi might be able to connect the dice,
1696
02:05:06.585 --> 02:05:12.100
but at least Bitfinex can't. But it doesn't have the k b c information of Bitfinex if if Bitfinex has
1697
02:05:12.480 --> 02:05:13.460
you. Right.
1698
02:05:13.920 --> 02:05:19.804
So there's, like, an argument to be made on Lightning. There's an argument to be made for custodial on Bitcoin, probably never
1699
02:05:20.264 --> 02:05:21.085
use custodial.
1700
02:05:21.545 --> 02:05:33.345
But yes. But this would be just low amount, right? Because it it wouldn't worth it and you wouldn't be able to withdraw like you know multimillion set of shoes to lightning. You would withdraw on chain and and pay the, you know, 40
1701
02:05:33.965 --> 02:05:39.745
k, sets withdrawal fee and So open arms open arms. Let me hit you with a actionable example
1702
02:05:40.200 --> 02:05:41.100
that that maybe,
1703
02:05:42.360 --> 02:05:44.060
at least the freaks that
1704
02:05:44.840 --> 02:05:48.940
that are having a good time, having fun staying poor out there, can relate to.
1705
02:05:49.965 --> 02:05:52.304
I was playing poker the other day, and they said, Matt,
1706
02:05:53.164 --> 02:05:54.465
Matt, you can't be,
1707
02:05:55.965 --> 02:06:14.015
you can't be, like, sitting around never being the banker. Like, this is, like, week 10 of poker. You've never been the banker. It's your turn to be the banker. It's like, I don't wanna be the banker. Like, why am I the banker? Like, you guys should just be lucky that I'm playing with you, you know, like, blah blah blah. And they, like, compelled me to be the banker. So I was like, okay. Fuck it. I'll be the banker.
1708
02:06:14.500 --> 02:06:20.840
And then some guys were like, I wanna receive I want I wanna pay in lightning. I wanna pay in fucking Onchain or whatever.
1709
02:06:21.145 --> 02:06:26.125
So I I gave people individual addresses for on chain if they wanted on chain.
1710
02:06:26.505 --> 02:06:30.844
Otherwise, I provided them individual invoices if they wanted to pay on Lightning.
1711
02:06:31.890 --> 02:06:32.390
And
1712
02:06:32.770 --> 02:06:35.510
so one guy I provided a Lightning invoice,
1713
02:06:35.970 --> 02:06:37.590
and the Lightning invoice said,
1714
02:06:37.970 --> 02:06:39.030
this is for 500,000
1715
02:06:39.410 --> 02:06:40.390
sats. Right?
1716
02:06:40.725 --> 02:06:47.385
Which obviously an invoice would say. And then it showed his NIM, and then I put his NIM in the in the in the,
1717
02:06:48.325 --> 02:06:48.825
memo
1718
02:06:50.790 --> 02:06:55.670
For my own so I knew that he was the one who paid it. Right? And then I put,
1719
02:06:56.310 --> 02:06:56.810
poker.
1720
02:06:57.190 --> 02:07:02.155
So I put his nim plus poker in the memo plus the amount, and he paid me with strike.
1721
02:07:02.615 --> 02:07:03.435
So now,
1722
02:07:03.735 --> 02:07:11.670
Jack forever and anyone who any regulator who he works with has this from his KYC name
1723
02:07:12.130 --> 02:07:14.710
has him paying this invoice that says his NIM
1724
02:07:15.170 --> 02:07:15.670
poker
1725
02:07:16.610 --> 02:07:17.510
and the amount.
1726
02:07:17.994 --> 02:07:22.735
Right? And, like, he would have been way better off if I had just given him an invoice from Wallace Satoshi.
1727
02:07:23.994 --> 02:07:33.040
Yeah. I mean, you know, what he did is he did not use lightning node node. I mean, not his. He's he withdrew from an exchange to your invoice.
1728
02:07:34.614 --> 02:07:37.034
That's what I did. Yep. So
1729
02:07:37.894 --> 02:07:43.930
so yes. So he did didn't only docs my point is, I guess, my point is not only did he fuck himself,
1730
02:07:44.710 --> 02:07:45.690
he fucked me.
1731
02:07:46.710 --> 02:07:53.585
Right? Yeah. Because now now Jack has now he's my boy. You know, hopefully, Jack isn't gonna come after me,
1732
02:07:53.965 --> 02:07:57.824
you know. But but he but now this regulated entity
1733
02:07:58.605 --> 02:07:59.105
has
1734
02:08:00.370 --> 02:08:06.950
knows that that that Matt I mean, this is this is my public note, knows that I was playing poker with this specific user
1735
02:08:07.355 --> 02:08:18.440
at this time, and this was the amount we paid. Yeah. Absolutely. As a receiver. And that wasn't my that wasn't my chose choice. I provided the invoice, but I didn't know where he was gonna pay it from. I didn't know he was gonna pay it straight from KYC.
1736
02:08:19.300 --> 02:08:23.460
You you you you made a mistake there because you you any any invoice
1737
02:08:23.925 --> 02:08:26.985
There's no personal responsibility, open arms. I did not make
1738
02:08:28.085 --> 02:08:29.465
You know, in terms of price,
1739
02:08:30.005 --> 02:08:37.950
I mean, you realize that very well and and, you know, that's why I wrote this example. There is, for example, if you're not not having noticed home, there is lightningdecoder.com
1740
02:08:39.370 --> 02:08:43.745
where you can put any landing invoice and it just shows what the content is. It's not
1741
02:08:44.205 --> 02:08:49.985
encrypted. It is just in a format which needs to be decoded and shows you the node ID where you are paying to.
1742
02:08:50.360 --> 02:08:53.020
And that note I mean, there is no good,
1743
02:08:53.640 --> 02:09:02.994
solution at the moment to hide that node ID. That could be if you do kind of fake nodes with through private channels with the, like, kind of, HDLC
1744
02:09:03.534 --> 02:09:04.594
acceptor API.
1745
02:09:04.895 --> 02:09:09.280
These are not built yet being worked on. But what I would have done
1746
02:09:09.720 --> 02:09:10.220
well,
1747
02:09:10.840 --> 02:09:16.765
I'm I'm not saying, you know, I mean, you you obviously, you know, did did did well because you did fulfill the
1748
02:09:18.125 --> 02:09:18.625
the,
1749
02:09:20.125 --> 02:09:25.105
ask of that friend of yours to play in lightning, which is great. You know, it's a great feeling to play with lightning.
1750
02:09:25.405 --> 02:09:45.580
I don't know how to do strike because it's not available in in Europe yet. I haven't used it either, only on the receiving end. I've only been doxed unintentionally by strike. I've never actually used it. Right. So so what you could do is just to take your phone, download the mobile wallet, let it be Breeze or Phoenix. These are non custodial, so you have the keys and you use those as the
1751
02:09:47.080 --> 02:09:49.740
as as instead of having a pile of,
1752
02:09:50.200 --> 02:09:53.645
you know, cash on the table. Right? People just throw the
1753
02:09:54.185 --> 02:10:00.685
the sets in there and then you do what you do with that later on. You can withdraw it on chain or you can you can
1754
02:10:01.430 --> 02:10:05.610
send it over to your lightning nodes later on from that mobile wallet. And
1755
02:10:06.230 --> 02:10:10.105
you use it only for that and, you know, it's gone. There will be no
1756
02:10:12.025 --> 02:10:13.565
no no more thing to worry about.
1757
02:10:13.945 --> 02:10:27.239
My point is is from a privacy perspective on the receiving side for lightning. Right now, there's a lot to be desired. I mean, I I Absolutely agree. I've I've I've talked to you about this in the past on the podcast, and on Twitter and Mastodon, whatever.
1758
02:10:28.545 --> 02:10:30.165
If you scroll through that presentation,
1759
02:10:30.705 --> 02:10:35.830
which we had just, like, linked previously, that is, like, the 3rd slide. Right. And
1760
02:10:36.130 --> 02:10:41.190
and and and stating all this. But but my my point my point is is
1761
02:10:42.985 --> 02:10:43.804
is is
1762
02:10:44.505 --> 02:10:49.885
with lightning as it's currently set up where you you have this fixed public key. Right?
1763
02:10:50.540 --> 02:10:55.760
Mhmm. And this your note is attached to public key. I mean, it is it is set up in a way
1764
02:10:56.780 --> 02:10:59.245
that if you're looking at it from, like, a regular
1765
02:10:59.545 --> 02:11:03.885
regulatory compliant exchange point of view, like, something like a strike or
1766
02:11:04.505 --> 02:11:08.900
a bid for next withdrawals or, like, a bottle pay. Like, you're talking about
1767
02:11:09.380 --> 02:11:15.480
they're getting they're they're gonna have a database of public keys, and they're gonna have them attached to KYC.
1768
02:11:15.965 --> 02:11:18.945
And there's gonna be you know, it it is set up in a way
1769
02:11:19.885 --> 02:11:20.704
that the receiver
1770
02:11:21.565 --> 02:11:23.025
has very poor privacy.
1771
02:11:23.940 --> 02:11:32.040
And I I I'm I've been told in the past when I brought this up, like, rotating pub keys, all this shit's gonna happen. We're not gonna have to deal with this in the future.
1772
02:11:32.420 --> 02:11:32.920
Okay.
1773
02:11:33.605 --> 02:11:34.825
I look forward to it.
1774
02:11:35.205 --> 02:11:37.545
But right now, as it stands, the receiver
1775
02:11:38.005 --> 02:11:44.730
end of story. If you wanna talk about there's all this nuance and stuff the receiver can do. But at the end of the day, the receiver has horrible privacy guarantees.
1776
02:11:46.469 --> 02:11:49.770
Yep. There you go. So so the so so then
1777
02:11:50.155 --> 02:11:51.695
when you receive Bitcoin,
1778
02:11:52.155 --> 02:11:53.695
receive to an on chain address
1779
02:11:54.155 --> 02:12:00.460
and make it clear for everyone that you can actually pay from a lightning wallet to an on chain address.
1780
02:12:02.600 --> 02:12:03.420
And if not,
1781
02:12:03.720 --> 02:12:05.900
then send them to, you know, borist.exchange
1782
02:12:06.520 --> 02:12:08.985
or whatever other there are plenty of other
1783
02:12:09.465 --> 02:12:11.405
services run by, you know, or
1784
02:12:11.705 --> 02:12:12.205
other,
1785
02:12:13.225 --> 02:12:14.605
companies and things.
1786
02:12:16.025 --> 02:12:16.420
Yeah.
1787
02:12:17.060 --> 02:12:25.560
So, Anthony, we have you in the comments. You're saying, since we're talking privacy, my recommendation is to avoid sending mixed coins to your node. Why? Hit us in the comments. No. I would I would only send
1788
02:12:26.085 --> 02:12:27.465
coin CoinJoin coins
1789
02:12:27.925 --> 02:12:37.619
to my node. So Me and Open Arms and Evan are just only we're only sending CoinJoin output store notes. So I'm curious what your angle is there on that.
1790
02:12:39.280 --> 02:12:39.780
Right?
1791
02:12:40.159 --> 02:12:51.195
Like, that that that gave especially if it's a public note. If it's public note I mean, someone else asked in the comments. I don't have their name. Is it possible for an average user to do a profitable lightning note? And, I mean, we have,
1792
02:12:51.915 --> 02:12:52.415
Bosworth,
1793
02:12:53.260 --> 02:12:57.440
Alex Bosworth, who I respect the shit out of, you know, thank you for your service,
1794
02:12:58.540 --> 02:13:00.780
like, bragging about his his,
1795
02:13:01.515 --> 02:13:04.335
revenue that he's bringing in on his routing note. Like, bro,
1796
02:13:04.795 --> 02:13:08.495
you named the reputation score after yourself. It's the boss
1797
02:13:09.380 --> 02:13:16.920
score. Like, of course, you're making money off of it. I think the average user, like, this average sovereign Bitcoin node operator,
1798
02:13:17.985 --> 02:13:25.765
who is running everything through Tor because he doesn't wanna expose his IP address, he's fucked. Like, there's no way that he's gonna ever have a profitable Lightning node. That is fine.
1799
02:13:26.370 --> 02:13:39.755
Like, it's it's it's he's gonna run it for ideological reasons. I run my nodes for ideological reasons. Both of you guys run your nodes, I think, for ideological reasons. Like, am I am I am I misguided here? Oh, no. No. That's what I was trying to allude to at the beginning of the show. Like,
1800
02:13:40.775 --> 02:13:46.130
either you're running like a personal node really or you're running a routing node. And that routing node
1801
02:13:46.430 --> 02:13:52.935
is not gonna have the same, privacy properties that your your private one does use. Right? But you're also
1802
02:13:53.315 --> 02:13:55.015
you know, have this chance of
1803
02:13:55.555 --> 02:14:03.320
making a a profit on that router. The thing is what the misconception here, right, is that people think, okay. I can just put up,
1804
02:14:04.260 --> 02:14:10.364
this capital and create these channels and then sit on my ass for a month and then come back and see a lot of profit.
1805
02:14:11.065 --> 02:14:21.710
And if that's what you think is gonna happen, like, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just not how it works. If you wanna be a routing node and make a decent amount of profit,
1806
02:14:22.810 --> 02:14:39.719
you need to, a, put up a significant amount of capital, and, b, you gotta be managing it daily. And if you really wanna, like, be cutting it c, it has to be on ClearNet on, like, AWS. It's gotta be ClearNet. You can you might wanna you could have the TOR option on your node, but you can't have a TOR only
1807
02:14:40.264 --> 02:14:49.485
node. That affects the routing and the path finding. Right? Can't open arms. You your node was offline for a fucking week while I tried to figure out the v three issues.
1808
02:14:51.020 --> 02:14:52.719
Theoretically, you can, but
1809
02:14:53.100 --> 02:14:59.995
that's the the way the network stands today. It's not practical to So look look at the look at the node, which is called
1810
02:15:00.455 --> 02:15:01.195
Yarls Tor.
1811
02:15:01.495 --> 02:15:04.795
And guess what? Who is managing that? And is it profitable?
1812
02:15:05.895 --> 02:15:13.820
Which node? Which node? Store? Yeah. Yo. It's Tor. So No. No. But it's Tor plus clear net. He has a clear net. Yeah. It has a clear net too.
1813
02:15:14.600 --> 02:15:16.860
So, anyway, the point is No. It doesn't.
1814
02:15:17.545 --> 02:15:19.565
Yeah. It's it's accessible from both.
1815
02:15:21.465 --> 02:15:34.130
Y'all's is both. It's not Tor only. No. There are 2 nodes. There are y'alls, clear net, and there is a y'alls Tor node. The main y'alls node is both clear net and Tor. Look. The one I just linked has 26 Bitcoin capacity.
1816
02:15:35.034 --> 02:15:35.514
Like
1817
02:15:35.914 --> 02:15:37.614
That is not a minor node
1818
02:15:38.954 --> 02:15:42.574
and only has What a tiny node. Yeah. Exactly.
1819
02:15:42.875 --> 02:15:44.335
Only has only an address.
1820
02:15:45.550 --> 02:15:53.330
Let me check. Well, he also has the advantage that he's providing a service there too. Oh, this is his oh, this is his tour only node?
1821
02:15:53.825 --> 02:15:54.325
Yep.
1822
02:15:54.945 --> 02:16:01.045
Gotcha. Okay. But, anyway, we're talking about the guy who's, like he fucking design like, he's, like, a main
1823
02:16:01.639 --> 02:16:09.500
lightning dev. You know? Like, this is ridiculous. Like, no one should be I have people reach out to me. They're like, Bosworth said that he made, like, 5 Bitcoin.
1824
02:16:10.034 --> 02:16:12.135
Like, why, like, can I not make money?
1825
02:16:12.755 --> 02:16:14.054
You know? Like, it's ridiculous.
1826
02:16:14.594 --> 02:16:26.980
Like, I've only lost money. You gotta be very active to be making those numbers, and you've gotta get a lot of capital. You gotta see that buzz on his note. He's got he's got a lot of money behind him. So I've lost so much money on my lightning node.
1827
02:16:27.605 --> 02:16:35.705
But you're not asking. I've lost so much money on my lightning nodes. You've just You've just just If you want to make money and want to help the network really,
1828
02:16:36.511 --> 02:16:44.131
then put the money into join markets and offer it. Let's go and join the You don't make any money on join market either, Braud.
1829
02:16:45.274 --> 02:16:47.455
You can raise the fees from the minimum
1830
02:16:47.915 --> 02:16:48.734
well below
1831
02:16:49.035 --> 02:16:56.609
the default so people will still accept just pressing enter. And you will actually make more money than with the same liquidity
1832
02:16:57.229 --> 02:17:05.475
putting on the writing lightning notes with plenty of work done. You know, this is just fact. And that's what it wants. Neither of the returns neither of the returns
1833
02:17:05.775 --> 02:17:06.675
over overcompensate
1834
02:17:07.215 --> 02:17:09.075
your hot wallet risk that you're taking.
1835
02:17:10.480 --> 02:17:15.780
Well, you need to I mean Well, everyone's got their own risk tolerance, Matt.
1836
02:17:16.400 --> 02:17:18.181
I'm just saying, like, objectively.
1837
02:17:19.440 --> 02:17:19.940
Objectively.
1838
02:17:21.345 --> 02:17:30.301
But this is the answer to the question. Can you make money on your note? You can make minimal amount of money. You can have 2 benefits. With lightning, you can pay instantly.
1839
02:17:30.761 --> 02:17:33.900
Mhmm. And with drone market, you can,
1840
02:17:35.080 --> 02:17:37.101
gain privacy by being a maker.
1841
02:17:38.824 --> 02:17:40.444
And which one you want most
1842
02:17:41.064 --> 02:17:43.404
or more or do you want you you can do both
1843
02:17:44.590 --> 02:17:54.546
and, you know, make a couple of sets. And indeed, in lightning, you because you have the force close risk of, you know, force closing the channel is hugely expensive,
1844
02:17:56.205 --> 02:17:57.585
and indeed you need
1845
02:17:59.070 --> 02:18:01.810
significant size channels like close
1846
02:18:02.110 --> 02:18:04.610
get to see what is what is the
1847
02:18:06.534 --> 02:18:09.755
average in one ml slash statistics, for example,
1848
02:18:10.614 --> 02:18:11.595
it's like 2,800,000.
1849
02:18:12.375 --> 02:18:18.510
So if you go, you know, 10 times lower than that, that you are far below the level where it could be any useful.
1850
02:18:18.890 --> 02:18:23.390
So, yes, you need you need capacity. And if you want to route, you don't,
1851
02:18:23.915 --> 02:18:28.574
you know, 2 peers are not I mean, 1 peer is not enough, 2 is definitely not, but then
1852
02:18:28.954 --> 02:18:30.335
2 is, you know,
1853
02:18:30.851 --> 02:18:35.910
practically can work, but not enough. You can need to have 10, you know, 20, 30, 100 peers.
1854
02:18:36.931 --> 02:18:39.520
So Wait. I don't know about that. Money.
1855
02:18:41.154 --> 02:18:53.840
For to be a routing node? Yes. You would you would need more than, like, 10 peers. Oh, wait. If you need a I mean, if your if your argument is that you need over a 100 peers to be a successful loud routing node, like, you're fucked if you're Tor only.
1856
02:18:55.020 --> 02:18:56.400
Like, what? I I
1857
02:18:56.860 --> 02:19:00.945
I I'm running I'm running one of the largest Tor only routing nodes.
1858
02:19:02.285 --> 02:19:15.895
You know, it's a fucking mess, man. It's, like, it's it's the reliance on tour is fucking horrible. What? Another part of the equation is that all liquidity is not equal. And you did a really generous thing to help bootstrap the Lightning
1859
02:19:16.835 --> 02:19:29.335
Network. It was generous. Parties with the freaks. Right? No. I helped the number go up. You did help the number go up, and and we salute you for that. But but it's not the best solution, not the best strategy
1860
02:19:29.795 --> 02:19:52.716
for making returns as a routing note. That's all I'm saying. No. I definitely fucked it up. You wanna do fewer channels. You could do fewer larger channels is the play if you wanna try and make some money off of this shit. And you want it on a stable hardware, on a good ISP. But look. We got Anthony here. I have a second note. I have a second note that I tried to do it the right way. Okay? And and the second note and and and 6102
1861
02:19:53.650 --> 02:20:04.445
and we have Anthony here. He's on tour only with 10 channels. I only make, like, $1 a month. LOL. Well, first of all, Anthony, you have to measure your profit in stats. So you you've already you're already short Bitcoin.
1862
02:20:06.186 --> 02:20:06.686
I,
1863
02:20:07.625 --> 02:20:09.806
6102 asked me, will channel
1864
02:20:10.180 --> 02:20:13.720
closures cost more than yes. They have so far for me.
1865
02:20:14.100 --> 02:20:23.045
Right? I I my channel closures but this was my same issue, right, that Evan said, is that I just went too big. Like, I had, like, 350 channels on my node
1866
02:20:23.425 --> 02:20:28.130
all out to plebs. Like, probably, like, 60 of the channels were out to, like, shitty Casa notes.
1867
02:20:28.530 --> 02:20:36.710
Matt, I appreciate you. You know? And when the fees went up, they all forced closed on me, and they fucking wrecked me. Yeah. They, like, destroyed me. So
1868
02:20:38.355 --> 02:20:45.735
You need to handpick your peers. Yeah. Yeah. That that's fucked up. Right? We that wasn't what we were sold open, Arms. Like, we were sold
1869
02:20:46.115 --> 02:20:47.655
we were sold trustless.
1870
02:20:48.120 --> 02:21:04.601
I, you know, I understand trust minimized was really what we should have been sold. But still, regardless, like, this idea that I gotta pick my peers, that I have to know who my peers are is, like, a is a new concept. That's a something that was added after the fact. They were, like, oh, like, why you shouldn't just have random peers. You know,
1871
02:21:04.980 --> 02:21:07.800
even if you look at the white paper, Matt, our assumptions
1872
02:21:08.340 --> 02:21:16.585
Satoshi's assumptions weren't a 100% right. Sometimes we gotta learn some hard lessons along the way in this in creating these decentralized technologies.
1873
02:21:17.045 --> 02:21:27.190
The best part of the freaks is we got Suheb in the comments telling us $1 a month is awesome, and then we have Anthony Anthony converted it over to Sats for us. Hey, because
1874
02:21:27.650 --> 02:21:28.230
this thing's
1875
02:21:28.851 --> 02:21:46.561
gonna pump forever like I know it will. That $1 a month you're getting now, that might pay for your kid's college down the line. So And that was the other thing. Okay. So so we have 21ism collective saying what fees do you set for routing? I remember open arms. Do you remember this? When I when I decided to raise my fees slightly
1876
02:21:46.885 --> 02:21:52.505
to, like, 1 hundredth of a percent or something, and you, like, called you, like, shamed me on Twitter.
1877
02:21:53.045 --> 02:21:56.265
Oh, no. What what did you set it to? From 1 to 400?
1878
02:21:56.620 --> 02:21:59.120
It's warriors. Okay. Oh, my god.
1879
02:21:59.900 --> 02:22:06.320
It is a 400 x rays. It was less than 4%. What it was, like, 4 percentiles over percent or something.
1880
02:22:07.085 --> 02:22:09.825
I think it was, yeah, 0.4, wasn't it?
1881
02:22:11.565 --> 02:22:18.181
I could look it up. Yeah. And you're like, oh, when someone raises their fees through the roof, you gotta just cut them off and raise your fees.
1882
02:22:19.601 --> 02:22:22.160
Yeah. I mean, you know, come on. I I do,
1883
02:22:22.801 --> 02:22:24.101
comment Ellen Biggs
1884
02:22:24.415 --> 02:22:27.955
tweets as well and and do he's doing something. You know? Let's talk about him.
1885
02:22:28.575 --> 02:22:30.755
Oh, yeah. Well, he or them. Right.
1886
02:22:31.135 --> 02:22:31.955
Or NSA.
1887
02:22:34.180 --> 02:22:38.600
Is Alan Bigg a trustworthy actor? Is it a proper Bitcoiner?
1888
02:22:39.140 --> 02:22:47.715
I did interact with him a couple of times, and, you know, he is reasonable. He looks like a person who has, like, a a rather explosive personality,
1889
02:22:48.096 --> 02:22:51.075
but, you know, logical and seems to
1890
02:22:52.779 --> 02:22:55.359
want to, you know, do good for the network. I mean,
1891
02:22:55.739 --> 02:22:57.500
I don't know what it is
1892
02:22:58.060 --> 02:23:04.596
really his aim is, and I don't really have channels with him either. Wait. All of his nodes are are located in the same data center in Virginia,
1893
02:23:05.375 --> 02:23:05.875
like,
1894
02:23:06.255 --> 02:23:07.556
half an hour from Langley,
1895
02:23:09.080 --> 02:23:14.220
which is the CIA headquarters for the non Americans or anyone who's not watched, like, my docudrama.
1896
02:23:14.760 --> 02:23:16.620
Tracks a little better than what?
1897
02:23:17.568 --> 02:23:26.655
I yeah. I I almost feel like it's less suspicious that it's located there because why would they do that? But at the same time, maybe they're just playing 4 d chess against us.
1898
02:23:27.420 --> 02:23:30.080
But it's, like, half the network. Ellen Big is, like, half the network.
1899
02:23:30.540 --> 02:23:33.440
Yeah. Still, we should make him, you know, insignificant.
1900
02:23:34.095 --> 02:23:43.210
I love the 6102 saying that I'm Ellen Bigg, but most people think I'm 6102. So maybe 6102 is Ellen Bigg. Okay. Now we're talking 5 d chess.
1901
02:23:46.230 --> 02:23:49.851
Okay. What do we think about Ellen Bigg? Let's riff on this. No one talks about it.
1902
02:23:51.895 --> 02:23:54.555
We gotta get the network to the size where
1903
02:23:55.095 --> 02:23:58.155
he's insignificant, and then we shouldn't care. You know?
1904
02:23:58.490 --> 02:24:01.790
Exactly. And with with private channels, we we might be already there.
1905
02:24:03.450 --> 02:24:08.285
But the public capacity is still Yeah. We don't know. That's a thing. It's a black box, really.
1906
02:24:08.984 --> 02:24:16.240
Well, once again, fuck private capacity. We don't care about that. I'd I I I think it's I think I think that's a bullshit argument.
1907
02:24:17.260 --> 02:24:21.920
I understand the private capacity argument. I just I it's not beneficial.
1908
02:24:22.686 --> 02:24:35.391
No. No. You're right. Even even if we did have all this capacity on the private that we knew of, we we can't, like, take that into consideration. We should just take assume that the capacity there is 1 Bitcoin or something like
1909
02:24:35.830 --> 02:24:36.650
just minuscule
1910
02:24:37.190 --> 02:24:41.095
because we we gotta keep iterating on this thing, and we we gotta find ways,
1911
02:24:42.455 --> 02:24:44.475
so that we're not dependent on just
1912
02:24:44.935 --> 02:24:47.354
that number, that black box value
1913
02:24:47.814 --> 02:24:54.399
cover saving our asses. We we can't be dependent on that. That that's not like the argument the argument that Bosworth makes, like, for the freaks
1914
02:24:54.780 --> 02:24:55.439
is that,
1915
02:24:55.955 --> 02:25:03.415
we we talked earlier about a completely private channel network, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant to the average user.
1916
02:25:03.780 --> 02:25:10.280
There is a private channel usage that is relevant to the average user, which is that if I have
1917
02:25:10.660 --> 02:25:15.435
a channel with Evan, it's public node, let's say, as a as a explanation
1918
02:25:16.055 --> 02:25:20.395
Mhmm. And and that channel has 16,000,000 Sats total possible capacity,
1919
02:25:21.930 --> 02:25:28.189
I could then have private channels that do greater capacity than that, and they will always fulfill any
1920
02:25:28.726 --> 02:25:29.705
up to 16,000,000
1921
02:25:30.165 --> 02:25:30.905
sat request.
1922
02:25:31.766 --> 02:25:33.065
So you can have, like
1923
02:25:33.605 --> 02:25:41.860
as long as you have a channel that's large enough for your minimum payment, you can have a bunch of chat you can have a shadow private channel that's way larger,
1924
02:25:42.800 --> 02:25:47.745
that can fulfill that payment. So you're basically just broadcasting your largest payment capability.
1925
02:25:49.245 --> 02:25:53.905
It can be opened and closed without, you know, being advertised with your node.
1926
02:25:54.510 --> 02:26:03.330
And if you cool. But I just think that's way less used than, like, this, like, random private channel network that's completely unrelated to us.
1927
02:26:05.186 --> 02:26:07.445
Yes. But if you if you're a routing node operator,
1928
02:26:08.145 --> 02:26:12.005
if you want to make make money, for example Who who who are these people?
1929
02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:17.500
If it's it's like We are these people. We are the routing node operators. Yeah. Exactly.
1930
02:26:18.120 --> 02:26:23.815
Exactly. It's actually of us. Yeah. And running We're, like, 3 of the 12. 3 of the 12
1931
02:26:24.436 --> 02:26:27.735
sovereign routing node operators are on this fucking chat right now.
1932
02:26:28.115 --> 02:26:28.615
Continue.
1933
02:26:30.280 --> 02:26:48.390
Yes. Exactly. But what what you want is to for your security, you want to minimize your exposure, your your hot wallet risk and etcetera, or your or, at a surface. So you would want to minimize the advertised public capacity of your node. So you don't want to if you have, like,
1934
02:26:49.330 --> 02:26:57.725
sets flying into one direction and they need more liquidity in that direction, then you don't want to just open another public channel. You want to open another
1935
02:26:58.105 --> 02:27:06.580
private channel so you're not advertising that your capacity is suddenly higher, but you will be able to continue to route. And when that depletes, you will open another,
1936
02:27:08.000 --> 02:27:11.221
private channel to that direction and close the old one because it has depleted.
1937
02:27:11.795 --> 02:27:16.055
And, you know, and you close in a way that the sets are
1938
02:27:16.515 --> 02:27:19.015
on chain ending up in your,
1939
02:27:20.120 --> 02:27:23.740
let's say, your joint market maker wallet. And it just keeps,
1940
02:27:24.360 --> 02:27:25.740
you know, coin joined away.
1941
02:27:26.120 --> 02:27:34.935
Or you can just use your whole storage as well. You don't even need to touch the on chain wallet, and you don't you won't be building up this problem with the,
1942
02:27:35.475 --> 02:27:38.375
you know, peeling chains and whatever merging
1943
02:27:38.900 --> 02:27:42.040
changes from private channels to public ones and things like that.
1944
02:27:46.695 --> 02:27:50.476
So I'm just thinking that to to minimize the advertised
1945
02:27:52.216 --> 02:27:53.115
public capacity
1946
02:27:53.655 --> 02:27:54.830
to is
1947
02:27:55.930 --> 02:27:56.430
essential
1948
02:27:56.890 --> 02:27:57.550
to be
1949
02:27:58.570 --> 02:28:00.830
safe as possible. Right? So,
1950
02:28:02.395 --> 02:28:07.135
you know, these no nodes which are efficient routing nodes might have, you know, multiples
1951
02:28:07.515 --> 02:28:08.654
of shadow capacity,
1952
02:28:09.194 --> 02:28:11.295
but, you know, you and me,
1953
02:28:11.650 --> 02:28:12.311
we'll never
1954
02:28:12.850 --> 02:28:16.630
know. Well, in current in the current state, the the safest
1955
02:28:17.010 --> 02:28:17.510
method
1956
02:28:18.130 --> 02:28:24.145
is is is you don't run a routing node. I mean, you're you're changing your lightning node every 2 months or something.
1957
02:28:24.605 --> 02:28:25.585
You're just constantly
1958
02:28:26.630 --> 02:28:31.370
closing out your node and and moving to a I mean, and on chain fees aren't that high,
1959
02:28:31.830 --> 02:28:32.569
so whatever.
1960
02:28:33.270 --> 02:28:35.370
Close out your node, coin join,
1961
02:28:35.795 --> 02:28:38.135
move to a new node, new pub key.
1962
02:28:39.395 --> 02:28:40.694
Well, if you dox if
1963
02:28:41.074 --> 02:28:42.774
if you have doxed your pub key,
1964
02:28:43.101 --> 02:28:48.320
then that's the case. Yes. Your PubKey is doxed every fucking payment. That's my point.
1965
02:28:50.035 --> 02:29:09.426
But if you're just running routing node, you're not necessarily using it for payments. Oh, so you're never receiving payments from it? Yeah. You might not Do you have your payment node as a separate node that's attached to your routing node as, like, the auxiliary regional If it's a routing node, you are not interested in receiving payments because what you are selling is the incoming liquidity, is is the incoming capacity. So the
1966
02:29:10.285 --> 02:29:18.460
that's what you can do. So someone pays through you. So you so you need to have roughly like 50 50 percent of your overall balance
1967
02:29:20.360 --> 02:29:22.985
to be your overall capacity need to be
1968
02:29:23.785 --> 02:29:24.846
on the distant
1969
02:29:25.945 --> 02:29:34.670
side and on the local side. So you don't want to have you don't want to receive payments because that that would reduce your ability to route payments.
1970
02:29:35.850 --> 02:29:38.270
I just fucking love that he called it the BOS score.
1971
02:29:40.170 --> 02:29:42.350
Hey. Listen. What do you know what it stands for?
1972
02:29:43.515 --> 02:29:46.095
He made up something. It's balance of satoshis,
1973
02:29:46.395 --> 02:29:53.770
but it really stands for Bosworth. Like, who do you think we are? Like, we know we know it stands to your name. It it'd be like if Odell
1974
02:29:54.070 --> 02:29:55.850
like, I just I don't know.
1975
02:29:56.550 --> 02:30:01.130
Of the I I can't think of it on the spot, but if I tried to come up with some fucking bullshit.
1976
02:30:01.944 --> 02:30:06.104
I'll think of it tomorrow. You'll see. Yeah. Someone figure out Odell, but but,
1977
02:30:07.225 --> 02:30:14.729
But BOS score is not is not used for many things. You know? It's just a public score which you can build on. And it's also for loop.
1978
02:30:16.630 --> 02:30:18.985
For loop? How? Yeah. Loop liquidity.
1979
02:30:22.165 --> 02:30:27.510
Mhmm. VAS score isn't as bad as Odell's score for privacy. It's a very good take. I appreciate you guys.
1980
02:30:27.990 --> 02:30:32.410
Yeah. We know we know Suheb. We know he's called balance of Satoshi. I appreciate Suheb being here.
1981
02:30:33.029 --> 02:30:34.810
So Taylor of my boys.
1982
02:30:35.235 --> 02:30:40.136
Loop is a submarine swap service. What what would it do? It's Yeah. The Odell score is horrible for privacy.
1983
02:30:42.250 --> 02:30:45.450
Don't don't don't judge yourself. Loop loop bases your,
1984
02:30:47.290 --> 02:30:52.155
bases your, like, whether or not someone goes with you based off your boss score.
1985
02:30:52.636 --> 02:30:53.136
Pool.
1986
02:30:54.315 --> 02:30:55.615
What? Pool,
1987
02:30:56.155 --> 02:30:56.976
not loop.
1988
02:30:58.155 --> 02:30:59.615
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Pool.
1989
02:31:00.131 --> 02:31:01.830
Easy to mix up. Apologies.
1990
02:31:02.290 --> 02:31:09.005
I apologize, guys. We're we're 2 and a half hours in here. I mean, there yes. There there is there is a there is a respect, but for example, the autopilot
1991
02:31:09.385 --> 02:31:10.525
or Yeah. The autopilot.
1992
02:31:11.145 --> 02:31:18.990
Routing is not based on that. There is LND has another scoring system, which is open source, obviously, which is, like, you know, based on betweenness and,
1993
02:31:20.010 --> 02:31:20.830
and fees,
1994
02:31:21.930 --> 02:31:22.430
to,
1995
02:31:22.970 --> 02:31:28.556
you know, how to construct the payment routes and things. And, I mean, you know, yes. I I mean, I do agree
1996
02:31:29.176 --> 02:31:32.795
I mean, I would prefer to have, like, an open source scoring system as well, but also
1997
02:31:33.990 --> 02:31:38.410
the argument is if it would be fully open source, then it would be easily gameable.
1998
02:31:38.950 --> 02:31:47.645
So, I mean, you know, pool is a gameable But that's why Bitcoin exists. Right? Like, this is a ridiculous bullshit argument. Right? But pool is a centralized service, and you don't need to use it.
1999
02:31:48.105 --> 02:31:51.005
So Right. I mean, but the idea is What's the problem? Right. Yeah.
2000
02:31:52.010 --> 02:31:52.750
I mean
2001
02:31:54.729 --> 02:32:00.670
I mean, if if if we were just gonna stand with this idea that, like, you cannot create a game a nongamable,
2002
02:32:02.125 --> 02:32:02.625
verifiable
2003
02:32:03.006 --> 02:32:04.705
network, then we wouldn't have Bitcoin.
2004
02:32:06.686 --> 02:32:07.186
Right?
2005
02:32:07.886 --> 02:32:08.785
Yeah. Yeah.
2006
02:32:09.280 --> 02:32:11.940
Well, yeah. I mean, it's Oh, he figured it out. 6102
2007
02:32:12.400 --> 02:32:16.420
figured it out. Odell, one dude's expensive lightning lessons.
2008
02:32:17.636 --> 02:32:20.295
Duke's is pretty good too. What was Duke's?
2009
02:32:20.755 --> 02:32:22.775
Obviously, don't explain low levels.
2010
02:32:25.561 --> 02:32:27.580
Yo, Freaks, I love you guys.
2011
02:32:27.881 --> 02:32:45.721
I appreciate you guys. I love interacting with you live. I mean, I just just for the Freaks that are here live and and to the podcasters that are here, just I just wanna let you know we have, like, 70 freaks here. We have, like, 80 freaks here paying attention. We're, like, in a small close knit, like, little fuck around group,
2012
02:32:46.500 --> 02:32:50.601
just watching the price of Bitcoin on our our favorite exchange and then also Coinbase,
2013
02:32:52.155 --> 02:33:03.550
and, we're just having fun with it. So I I appreciate you guys Man. Along with this. Look. I mean, I know the price is bumping right now, but that spread is really tiny right now. That's, like, what, less than a percent?
2014
02:33:04.010 --> 02:33:05.630
No. Yeah. I mean I mean,
2015
02:33:06.010 --> 02:33:22.570
I I'm if if the freaks aren't gonna pump this shit to 50 k on bisque, like, are they really freaks? Like, last week, that's what we had. So, I mean, I I just wonder, like, with the lack of liquidity there, like, if you're if you're if you're not pumping that price, are you really a freak? Yeah. Freaks think about it. It's economically,
2016
02:33:23.910 --> 02:33:28.570
like, smart for you guys to be purchasing on this. If the this price spread
2017
02:33:29.025 --> 02:33:33.686
is, as percentage is smaller percent than what it would cost to CoinJoin,
2018
02:33:34.785 --> 02:33:59.430
then, you know, buying on DISC is a great option. Let's put those talk about numbers up, freaks. Come on. Non KYC sats. Let's do it. So Anthony mentioned what I was talking about, which is is is on pool in lightning pool. If you're if you're not top of the boss list, if you're not top of of the balance of Satoshi's list, you cannot you cannot sell your liquidity in the pool. You have to be a verified seller.
2019
02:34:00.930 --> 02:34:05.030
And he named that after himself and then pretended it was balance of Satoshis. Right?
2020
02:34:08.615 --> 02:34:12.155
I mean, it it's it's it's not Alex making the pool,
2021
02:34:12.775 --> 02:34:13.275
code
2022
02:34:13.851 --> 02:34:23.855
pretty much, you know. So it is just something they used to put the nodes into 2 tiers. That is tier 0 and tier 1. And to have some kind of guarantee to,
2023
02:34:25.676 --> 02:34:32.051
be able to have a useful channel, by default, you are buying channels from tier 1, which is
2024
02:34:32.511 --> 02:34:40.851
the, you know, all the nodes who have ever made to the top 300 of the roughly of the boss score, but it's it's not really,
2025
02:34:41.615 --> 02:34:42.755
so they can arbitrarily
2026
02:34:43.135 --> 02:34:50.835
put a node to tier 1 if they want because that's a database which should manage by lighting labs and and their and their pool server.
2027
02:34:53.440 --> 02:34:56.580
So, I mean, that that that's how it is used, but it is not very
2028
02:34:56.960 --> 02:35:00.820
significant. And and there is a comment. Again, Anthony says that none of his
2029
02:35:02.755 --> 02:35:10.695
is is Tor only notes didn't make it to to the BOS score. Well, I don't even know how to run a a node on Clearnet. All my notes are on
2030
02:35:12.250 --> 02:35:16.351
on tour only, and they have all made it to the bus score
2031
02:35:16.891 --> 02:35:18.351
bus list just
2032
02:35:18.766 --> 02:35:19.985
for, you know
2033
02:35:20.525 --> 02:35:22.785
maybe I'm on the same Telegram channel as,
2034
02:35:23.245 --> 02:35:27.506
as Alex is. Right? Right. He's calling you out. You're on the wait list.
2035
02:35:28.640 --> 02:35:32.820
Exactly. But he doesn't know my notes, though. He's he's calling you out. Yeah.
2036
02:35:34.240 --> 02:35:36.900
Well, I appreciate Anthony. He works for Bottlepay.
2037
02:35:37.465 --> 02:35:40.364
No. No. I agree. I mean, you know, it's a it's a good point,
2038
02:35:41.305 --> 02:35:44.730
but I don't think it's a big issue, and I hope that they will get rid of it,
2039
02:35:46.011 --> 02:35:47.950
even to be used in pool
2040
02:35:48.330 --> 02:35:52.910
or or just, you know, someone should make up a better scoring system.
2041
02:35:53.745 --> 02:35:57.665
The Odell. Come on. Let's get it out tomorrow. Yeah. We gotta get the Odell. The,
2042
02:35:59.345 --> 02:36:05.370
Listen. We're gonna watch it, and then I'm gonna game the fuck out of it. What was what was my favorite acronym of it?
2043
02:36:05.909 --> 02:36:09.930
I can't even I the scrolling on this shit fucking sucks.
2044
02:36:10.815 --> 02:36:12.275
It doesn't work, does it?
2045
02:36:14.095 --> 02:36:16.675
Yeah. I don't know. It was good. Everyone heard it.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:35 PM
Duration: 11157.524
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:04.420
2
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cryptocurrency.
3
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You wanna explain why you're doing that?
4
00:00:09.125 --> 00:00:14.025
5
00:00:14.565 --> 00:00:18.185
But we wanna be one of the most crypto forward, and technological
6
00:00:18.600 --> 00:00:22.940
cities in the country. So we're looking at, number 1, creating a a regulatory framework,
7
00:00:23.400 --> 00:00:25.420
that makes us the easiest place
8
00:00:25.875 --> 00:00:29.575
in the United States to do, business if you're doing it in cryptocurrencies.
9
00:00:30.355 --> 00:00:41.640
We're looking at laws from, Wyoming, Wisconsin, and New York, a regulatory environment. And we have a tremendous amount of interest in tech right now. So we're looking at a variety of things from being able to make payments in crypto,
10
00:00:42.100 --> 00:00:49.254
in Bitcoin in particular, being able to pay your taxes, being able to pay fees to the city. And then, yes, we are looking at the possibility of diversifying
11
00:00:49.555 --> 00:00:50.855
our investment portfolio
12
00:00:51.450 --> 00:00:55.070
and having and holding a percentage of our, investments in Bitcoin.
13
00:00:56.410 --> 00:00:59.790
14
00:01:00.235 --> 00:01:03.055
high-tech companies, big tech companies to Miami?
15
00:01:03.594 --> 00:01:07.295
I I know you've got good weather. I know you've got low taxes.
16
00:01:07.720 --> 00:01:11.260
Are you using a Bitcoin investment as a further inducement?
17
00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:17.685
18
00:01:18.064 --> 00:01:20.244
seeing all the things that cities do. If you're inviting,
19
00:01:20.704 --> 00:01:30.220
that's something that, cities are benefit benefiting from like like we are. I want other creative and the innovative class to come here and create high paying jobs for my residents.
20
00:01:30.600 --> 00:01:33.100
And, certainly, there is a an enormously large
21
00:01:33.615 --> 00:01:35.234
crypto and Bitcoin community,
22
00:01:35.615 --> 00:01:36.115
particularly,
23
00:01:36.734 --> 00:01:38.354
you know, on social media,
24
00:01:38.655 --> 00:01:41.875
and they are carefully watching as these assets
25
00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:43.939
become more and more mainstream.
26
00:01:44.399 --> 00:01:47.860
The more that, organizations like the city of Miami and others,
27
00:01:48.399 --> 00:01:55.595
mainstream Bitcoin, there's only one direction, that the prices are gonna go because we know that the supply of money is limited. It's only gonna go up.
28
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29
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and my 2 good friends, Open Arms and Evan Kaludis,
30
00:02:44.355 --> 00:02:47.335
for episode number 6 of Citadel Dispatch.
31
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I wanna welcome all the freaks that are here with us live,
32
00:02:52.519 --> 00:02:55.420
for our new Tuesday, Bitcoin Tuesday tradition.
33
00:02:56.040 --> 00:02:57.180
It's always a pleasure
34
00:02:58.345 --> 00:03:01.325
chilling with you guys. I know I enjoy it. I hope,
35
00:03:01.625 --> 00:03:08.010
the freaks joining us today are enjoying themselves, and I hope that OpenOps and Evan Kaloudis are enjoying themselves.
36
00:03:08.870 --> 00:03:09.370
So
37
00:03:09.989 --> 00:03:13.689
to the freaks listening in, that was Miami mayor Francis Suarez,
38
00:03:14.355 --> 00:03:16.775
pumping the corn for us on Fox Business.
39
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That's still pretty unreal to me.
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That was a little bit less than a week ago, and it already feels like old news.
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To the freaks joining us on the livestream, I have,
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the same price display I had on last week. On the top, we have the evil empire Coinbase Pro, which you can see has a large amount of liquidity.
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And then we have the good guys, Bisc, underneath,
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that's trucking through with their no KYC
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sat stacking.
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So what's up, guys? I
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I'm really excited
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to
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have this conversation. I think there's a lot of important things we can talk about here.
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Primarily, I mean, I wanna do a heavy focus on lightning, but I think we're gonna be all over the place. And I'm I'm pretty I I couldn't couldn't pick a better pair to do this with.
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The freaks might realize that Evan is is our first return guest here on Citadel Dispatch, only 6 episodes in. He was he was on the first episode.
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So, I mean, let's just start. I mean, Evan Evan doesn't need an introduction. He already had one. Thanks for being here, Evan. Yay.
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yeah, I'm just happy to get into it. Thanks for having me back, Ben.
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Sorry for cutting you off there. I wasn't tripping into it. Time is money.
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And then we have Open Arms here. Open Arms is a fucking legend. He's a friend.
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He's been doing a lot in the Bitcoin hardware space,
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with his work with the Raspberry blitz project and join inbox,
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and he's been very focused on privacy.
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What's up, Open Arms?
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Being here live, you know, it's a big thing. I do I do a pop. Oops. I don't know how that went to say
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Yeah. This Better than my week at pop.
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last month end of December. So, you know, pretty,
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proud of that.
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So, you know, happy to share that
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with you guys. Otherwise, who wouldn't know me, I'm from
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20 Bitcoin generation of 2017.
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I've been,
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like, coming head first into
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into lightning basically, and
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then being focusing on on security, which is the privacy.
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I realized privacy is the huge part of security. So basically I I just went down on the angle,
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quite hard learning
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programming.
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I cannot say that it's not in the past. It's I'm I'm learning continuously, trying to publish as many things as I can as I learn them,
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and, make it available for others.
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And,
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yes,
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all the other privacy tools.
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And, yeah, we'd like to, you know, just throw us the questions.
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Well, cheers.
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I,
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I wanted to start
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with this
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with this idea. Sorry. I got a little bit sidetracked.
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I wanted to start with Lightning.
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And there's been a lot of discussion lately with Lightning,
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with regard to
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private channels versus public channels.
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And I think, like, people are a bit confused here.
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I,
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people are confused on all sides,
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whether that's a a Bitcoiner or, like, a a Bitcoin cheerleader or a Bitcoin denier or, like, a lightning pragmatist.
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I feel like there's very few in the room that kind of
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see what's going on here, see, you know, how this is developing. And I think YouTube guys are are kind of on the front lines there,
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along with me to a degree.
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So
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I mean so
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my my feeling that I think people are missing
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is
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is is that we basically have
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2 different lightning networks
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that are forming, and there's, like it's almost 2 separate theses.
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Like, we we have this private
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channel
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network that is appears to be emerging in the background, that that appears to be emerging, you know, with the strikes of the world
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and and, like, all the major exchanges, Bitfinex, you know, maybe Coinbase eventually in, like, 5 years, who the fuck knows with them, but like Kraken, Bitstamp,
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where they have these massive private channels to basically allow traders to they don't have it yet, but this idea that they have these massive private channels that allow traders to move between their platforms,
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for low fees,
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pretty much instantly.
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Low fee is very quick,
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and they don't actually go through any routing notes or anything. They're completely that's completely
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unaffected by the public
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Lightning Network. The the Lightning Network that is self sovereign Bitcoin user that never interacts with exchanges might might
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deal with,
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It has a completely different trade off balance. It's a completely different product. It's a completely different network, and I almost
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see that as, like, a guarantee. Like, I think
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that technology makes a lot of sense to me. You have, like, these semi trusted relationships between exchanges.
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They're using this trust minimized protocol to balance out their their transfers between themselves. I think that could be successful while the
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broader Lightning Network, the public Lightning Network, the self sovereign Lightning Network that someone like us would connect to to make a p to p payment
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could could fail, and and the private lightning network could be a success.
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I was curious what your thoughts are here.
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I I guess, let's start with Evan.
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as you guys know, there's a pretty big distinction between having a public channel and a private channel.
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And, right now, I think the biggest difference is,
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between, you know, finding your routes and,
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you know,
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what the what the goal of that channel exactly is nowadays.
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So as far as it goes, like, when you're running a node, you really need to keep in mind, like, what are you trying to optimize for at the moment.
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So are you trying to,
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you know, make these transactions
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and have them you know, your personal transactions and have them as private as possible, have them only pertaining to the parties,
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you know, that that need to know about it,
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or are you trying to run, like, a bigger operation? Are are you trying to,
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you know,
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profit off of being a man in the middle of sorts
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and routing
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payments from hop a to hop b and making money off the fees. So
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depending on, you know, what what your
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goal is in running that lightning node, you're definitely gonna have a different structure of how your channels are laid out and whether they're public or private.
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You know, furthermore, you gotta be strategic
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in
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who you're opening channels with and,
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you know, who those county who's who those counterparties are and, furthermore, like, you know, the quality of that liquidity. Like,
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you know, not all not every channel is gonna,
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you know, have the same value to you. It's gonna depend a lot about, like, your flows,
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what your kind of usage of the network is. Is it personal use? Or, what are if you're a service, what your users are using.
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There's, like, a whole lot of nuance to that.
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And then furthermore,
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we have
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to take into consideration,
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like, how,
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pathfinding is done.
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Now
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is
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and, like, the present system pretty much, like, your node
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is, like,
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pulling the graph of all the lightning nodes and
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asking each one, like, who they have a connection to and sort of, like, calculating
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itself on the fly.
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And as the protocol develops and matures, there's gonna be, like,
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more advanced methods of doing that pathfinding.
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You're gonna be able to, like, have a third party do that pathfinding for you. You're gonna,
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you know, there's gonna be new methods of making payments, like, rendezvous
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payments where you can make a payment to someone without even knowing,
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never it never hits like, I I try and
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the goal with Citadel dispatch is to try and make it more actionable. Right? And,
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I'm excited about all these different things that we're gonna see with lightning, but the key I wanna make here is this distinction.
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Okay. Right? This distinction that
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we've we've heard this argument with Liquid.
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Right? With this argument with Liquid, by Blockstream, the side chain, this federated side chain that the main use case is for traders,
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which is not us. And the 3 of us, it's we're not the use case for liquid. That traders are gonna trade between exchanges,
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to do arbitrage and shit, and time matters and fees matter,
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for those people. They want it to be fucking instant.
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And that's why Liquid has their one minute confirmation times. Mhmm.
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Private
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lightning network usage,
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these massive private channels that are going between exchanges,
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is that use case but better? Am I right or am I wrong?
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I could see a future where
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LN actually
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is the p to p network that we're using personally amongst the plebs,
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And, you know, l n could potentially,
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also be that pipe between the exchanges, but, you know, I think there's also gonna be a battle there between
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liquid. Because, like, let's say, for example, you have, like, an arbitrage trader. Right? And they have enough liquidity on the exchange.
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They might find an arbitrage opportunity, right,
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and end up emptying out, like, the pipe to that you have between those two exchanges,
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like, to to make the the maximum return on their arbitrage. So, like, l n could potentially,
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see some complexities there
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where, you know, the big dogs are, like, emptying out those pipes. It becomes a different ballgame,
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though, when there's multiple routes between the exchanges, though, and that's where things get really complex.
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So to say that things are gonna go definitively one way or another right now
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is really hard to say. Yeah. And I think we're gonna see that play out over the next few years. I mean, look. We're in the business of taking away the nuance and making definitive concise claims,
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But I mean, I from my perspective, like, I don't think
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that,
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and obviously, none of us have a crystal ball, so we're making predictions. Right? But I I don't think this idea of, like, multiple chat like, multiple routes between exchanges will be a reality. I think, you know, if you're Bitfinex,
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you're just gonna
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have, you know, a a $50,000,000,
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a $100,000,000
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channel,
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with with your, you know, the other large exchanges, and you'll have it direct with them. You won't have any routing nodes in your way.
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You won't have any fees besides just you and that
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other exchange, so you guys can agree to just no
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fees. And you have, like, a semi trusted relationship already.
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So why would you ever end up going through a routing node? That's different than if they offer withdrawals.
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That I think that's a separate product. Like, I see exchanges offering these private lightning for traders before they offer actual lightning withdrawals. I think it's a completely different use case. And then I I see people,
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like our friend Grubles on Twitter talking about the negative of lightning being the liquidity issues.
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I don't
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like, liquid has those same issues. Like, am I wrong open arms? Like, how, like, how like, if I wanna send
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if if an exchange needs to send 20 Bitcoin on liquid to another exchange, like, they need to have 20 Bitcoin in liquid pegged in already.
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the big biggest difference between liquid and lightning that that
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lightning channel,
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by the way it can be based on liquid as well, it is a payment channel. So the
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the traffic is bidirectional
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and
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the
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whereas
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with liquid, you're just showing the things back and forth
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The
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with Bitcoin main base
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they are slightly quicker and
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cheaper.
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So
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and but still, it would be kind of the instead of the end of the day settlement or end of every hour settlement, you you will use liquid instead of instead of, the base.
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I mean Right? But for lightning, you would you would just throw things
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around
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with the speed of lightning. Right? So as as traders move from here to their
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arbitraging that digital opportunities where, you know, they make a set there, another set of sheet there,
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and and that as you say there will be no routing nodes in between
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the exchanges, obviously, and every, like, major nerd
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will have direct
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channels between them where the transaction is free and
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quick and also reliable.
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Whereas
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there are users so so from the point of view of the user, why would I want to why would someone want to use a a private channel?
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Well, it's
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for, basically,
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privacy reasons
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that
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you have
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if you have a private channel only,
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you don't want to be routing, you know, because
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you are exposing yourself to not only privacy risk, but, you know, people for
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people are forwarding HDRCs on you, they fail,
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the channel gets forced closed, you get incurred costs, and there is a risk involved with that.
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Risk of not losing the money from the channel, but
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to lose the price of the on chain on chain settlement which can be high just like nowadays.
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You open a private channel or even better, your exchange, let it be Stripe, for example, the the biggest example,
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opens a private channel to you.
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And what you do,
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you are doing your DCA, you are stacking sets so to say. Okay. So,
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or every week you you you buy you
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know,
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you do. And then
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you also, you know, pay your coffee or or
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or, you know, go for
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a meet up with friends and share the cost of the meal or things like that. So
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but the
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direction of flow of the of the sets is is is two way, but you don't need routing. And then when you have, you know, £2,000
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verse or $2,000
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verse built up on
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that
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channel, so it's always it's almost full.
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And I don't even want to speak in fiat. You have like 2,000,000 built up 2,000,000 sets built up on the channel, so it's almost full because it's it's it's a limited size because it's only us 33,000,000
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which the exchange opened to you, you would just swap it out. Swap it out to cold storage.
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Swap it out with a with a 3rd party provider
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with who is providing you great privacy because there is no on chain
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kind of where that UTSO came from, which then goes into your core storage.
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Or you can, you know, put this through if you can.
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I don't know if you can do anything on your side, but we're willing to deal with it because we appreciate you so much. But I just wanted you to know that. I mean, I I think you kind of
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you got lost in the weeds a little bit again on me.
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This is what, you know, this is kind of what I'm saying. Like, I don't
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I wanted to you hit, like, 2 point you hit multiple points there. And and and my point is is that Lightning could be a massive success
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on the private exchange side
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just as private channels,
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and that means absolutely shit all for the average user,
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if they're not a trader.
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And that's fine. It is what it is. It's just a different,
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use case. A completely different separate use case. And so when someone says, like, oh, but there's really these massive private channels,
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which I am guilty of as well. I sent out a tweet. I was like massive private channels between exchanges.
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That doesn't mean that it has any effect. It's completely unrelated really to the public lightning network.
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In this respect, those private channels, not all private channels. Some private channels matter, but not not those.
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295
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there's a complete difference as far as, you know, the the 2
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go, really. I
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mean, we have complete insight into the public channels, and they all get graphed on Graph Explorers like 1ML. And,
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you know, all the private channels are pretty much a black hole until, you know, you get some insight
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into 1 by using it or getting, like, routing hints from someone.
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So it's hard to even,
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you know, quantify what's going on there or really get an insight. We can only make educated guess
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as to what that volume looks like.
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304
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open. We appreciate you backing out and coming back in. Hopefully, that helped.
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00:21:28.925 --> 00:21:34.705
You know, the other the other thing here is, you know, Stefan we have Stefan Lavera in the comments section.
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Appreciate all of you in the comments,
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the live comments. The show wouldn't be the same without you. Saying liquid doesn't have quite the same issues in my opinion.
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We have 6102
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00:21:44.950 --> 00:21:47.995
saying that liquid has a different security model. Yeah. Absolutely.
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It does. And
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00:21:50.375 --> 00:21:55.195
but to exchanges, I think, you know, some of those issues I think some of the issues are similar.
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00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.840
I think the liquidity issue is something that,
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liquid proponents,
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00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:02.500
you know, aren't
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00:22:03.105 --> 00:22:09.445
it's not as effective argument as they think it is, because I do think the liquidity issue is a issue on on
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on liquid,
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you know,
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in these larger situations
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where you're sending large amounts.
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The other thing is,
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00:22:19.030 --> 00:22:24.115
I mean, with liquid, you have different risk. Right? You have this risk that you're trusting this multisig,
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00:22:24.735 --> 00:22:26.035
this federated multisig.
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00:22:26.975 --> 00:22:33.940
Those those you know, they're they're running on HSMs, but it's also hot just like with with Lightning. But with Lightning, you know,
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a a Lightning relationship can emerge between Strike and Cash App,
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without any
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conversation with any other party. They can just simply
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use the lightning protocol right now to create a trust minimized payment channel between the 2 of them, not tell anybody about it except traders that wanna switch between the platforms, and they're ready to go. They don't have any third parties that are involved in that process. And I think
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that alone, that reduced regulatory risk, that reduced third party risk for these exchanges
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makes it a night and day improvement over over using liquid in that situation. And maybe liquid made more sense for these last 3 years, you know, as, like, a stop gap while lightning got ready and got got more prepared.
330
00:23:18.425 --> 00:23:24.110
But, like, we didn't have fees, and and it it they they missed their they missed their opportunity.
331
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332
00:23:36.905 --> 00:23:37.405
they're
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334
00:23:44.860 --> 00:23:46.640
Exactly. And but it's happening,
335
00:23:46.945 --> 00:23:55.045
but it's just unrelated. And just it's something that's happening. What do you mean? People couldn't you it doesn't everything doesn't have to be, like, bullish for, you know, average Bitcoin users.
336
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337
00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:02.390
Right? Like,
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the the the swings right there
339
00:24:05.285 --> 00:24:07.945
can create a lot of volatility. Once you're able
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to go from one exchange to another, right, and it doesn't take, like, an hour of doing the trade and waiting for blocks to confirm, and it just, like, happens in a couple of minutes, if not seconds,
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00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.980
you know, you're gonna get much more price stability.
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So I think to the greater ecosystem,
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00:24:23.105 --> 00:24:32.680
it is pretty important. I mean, maybe the average user doesn't exactly care about the average exchanges flows, but it's gonna have a positive effect if you can make that jump
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as far as arbitrage goes, a quicker process, and I think we'll all benefit.
345
00:24:40.135 --> 00:24:42.235
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between between jurisdictions
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and,
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00:24:45.890 --> 00:24:48.230
yeah, I mean, that that's that's about it, really.
349
00:24:49.090 --> 00:24:51.350
350
00:24:52.130 --> 00:24:55.670
if if you have, like, a tether or something on the opposite side.
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00:24:58.024 --> 00:25:02.845
Like, I I feel like, you know, the the the arbitrage the arbitrage
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friction
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00:25:05.650 --> 00:25:09.110
is not, you know, the 10 minute Bitcoin confirmation times,
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00:25:09.490 --> 00:25:17.405
for transferring Bitcoin between the exchange. I mean, it is to a degree, but the the Fiat transfer is harder. Anyway, we're getting into the nuances here.
355
00:25:18.265 --> 00:25:28.539
356
00:25:28.840 --> 00:25:33.305
onion routing, like, we can get really, really nuanced as far as,
357
00:25:33.865 --> 00:25:39.965
you know, liquidity, privacy, all these things go. So Okay. Stefan's coming in hard. It matters, guys.
358
00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:44.820
359
00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.980
better price discovery across the world is what we want ultimately.
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00:25:50.685 --> 00:25:54.385
We want the world to be priced in SaaS, and you're not gonna get that without better infrastructure.
361
00:25:55.325 --> 00:25:55.825
Yep.
362
00:25:56.205 --> 00:25:58.625
363
00:25:59.440 --> 00:26:01.700
less bits going on exchanges overall?
364
00:26:02.080 --> 00:26:05.220
So if it can flow better, then we have you know, less is enough
365
00:26:05.520 --> 00:26:07.220
so people can trade with less,
366
00:26:08.595 --> 00:26:09.735
which is the trend
367
00:26:10.275 --> 00:26:11.175
luckily nowadays.
368
00:26:13.475 --> 00:26:17.669
369
00:26:17.970 --> 00:26:19.030
crypto legend
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cryptographer
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00:26:20.290 --> 00:26:20.790
legend,
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and, like, he loves arbitrage.
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00:26:24.185 --> 00:26:34.639
I don't know why. He's, like, he's, like, constantly tweeting about how he's, like, sent you know, he he he used an arbitrage opportunity to make a little spread. I just I don't know. Random.
374
00:26:35.980 --> 00:26:37.919
375
00:26:38.220 --> 00:26:39.740
376
00:26:40.485 --> 00:26:44.265
yeah. Let's jump into that. Yeah. You said okay. So first of all,
377
00:26:47.765 --> 00:26:48.325
we saw
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00:26:48.909 --> 00:26:54.610
you know, this is a little bit not Bitcoin, but fuck it. We saw the whole GameStop thing, you know,
379
00:26:55.149 --> 00:26:56.289
go crazy today,
380
00:26:57.255 --> 00:26:59.995
with Reddit traders pushing GameStop price up.
381
00:27:00.455 --> 00:27:01.355
In my opinion,
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00:27:02.375 --> 00:27:04.955
in a true free market, there's no such thing as manipulation.
383
00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:06.720
Agree or disagree?
384
00:27:07.100 --> 00:27:08.480
Start with you, Evan.
385
00:27:12.934 --> 00:27:17.115
386
00:27:17.975 --> 00:27:18.875
I would say,
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generally speaking,
388
00:27:22.870 --> 00:27:24.570
you know, all trades really
389
00:27:25.190 --> 00:27:30.745
happen with some information asymmetry. Right? Like, no having some sort of inside knowledge of what's going on.
390
00:27:31.145 --> 00:27:33.245
Otherwise, you're just gambling, right, or,
391
00:27:33.625 --> 00:27:37.165
you know, just just being a a guess as to where things are gonna go.
392
00:27:38.345 --> 00:27:40.105
What's really interesting about,
393
00:27:41.419 --> 00:27:44.159
this GameStop thing is just, like, how it's coordinated
394
00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:50.000
and how, like, you know, just these average traders on and what is it? Wall Street Bets on Reddit
395
00:27:50.445 --> 00:27:52.225
have coordinated such a big thing
396
00:27:52.684 --> 00:27:53.184
that's,
397
00:27:53.565 --> 00:27:54.705
like, really crushing
398
00:27:55.164 --> 00:27:56.625
so many hedge funds.
399
00:27:57.404 --> 00:28:06.720
Mhmm. It's like it's gonna has so much, like, potential to, like, just wreck this industry. Like, hedge funds can, like, end up getting wrecked
400
00:28:07.195 --> 00:28:09.375
just by some, like, Internet posters.
401
00:28:09.995 --> 00:28:14.655
Like, I I think it's gonna be really interesting to see the repercussions of this thing play out.
402
00:28:15.080 --> 00:28:19.800
403
00:28:20.600 --> 00:28:24.300
you know, Robinhood the way Robinhood makes their money is they sell their flows,
404
00:28:25.155 --> 00:28:26.455
to other hedge funds.
405
00:28:27.875 --> 00:28:29.495
So it's not just Redditors,
406
00:28:30.355 --> 00:28:31.255
that are wrecking
407
00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:39.610
opposing short selling hedge funds. It's also the hedge funds that are using your editors flow to to front run them
408
00:28:39.965 --> 00:28:41.665
and blow them up at the same time.
409
00:28:43.725 --> 00:28:50.090
Yeah. But my point is all is fair all is fair and love war and and free markets. Like, the the world that we're going to,
410
00:28:50.789 --> 00:28:54.649
you know, in a proper free market, in a proper place where you can trade,
411
00:28:55.485 --> 00:28:58.945
privately without KYC, globally without friction,
412
00:29:00.284 --> 00:29:05.710
where, you know, the EMH proponents win and every little thing is priced in appropriately.
413
00:29:06.170 --> 00:29:09.150
There's no such thing as insider trading. There's no such thing as manipulation.
414
00:29:09.475 --> 00:29:13.495
It is a profit opportunity that is taken, and it shows itself on the market.
415
00:29:14.115 --> 00:29:21.670
416
00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:32.775
So, you know, if you block one venue for this to happen on, you know, so some is gonna appear in in another. You know? And as we're seeing, like, these stocks become, like,
417
00:29:33.770 --> 00:29:34.429
you know,
418
00:29:34.730 --> 00:29:35.230
tokenized,
419
00:29:36.330 --> 00:29:42.750
you know, it's it's gonna be really hard to to work around this. So And Open Arms covered this today. He's you know, he mentioned,
420
00:29:43.674 --> 00:29:45.615
421
00:29:46.635 --> 00:29:49.695
the KYC is getting worse particularly for Bitstamp users.
422
00:29:50.395 --> 00:29:59.760
And you said that they should, you you know, people should use BISK and people should use HODL HODL. I mean, Open Arms, like, what do you have to say to the people who would tell you that without KYC,
423
00:30:01.135 --> 00:30:07.235
Bosch Trading is is very easy to do, and insider trading is very easy to do, and market manipulation is very easy to do.
424
00:30:10.350 --> 00:30:10.850
425
00:30:11.549 --> 00:30:14.610
and and it is difficult with k y c, you mean?
426
00:30:15.070 --> 00:30:27.075
427
00:30:30.340 --> 00:30:34.039
428
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:39.545
trading to be honest. You know? The this I mean, looking at the stock market as as well, it it looks like the end of 2017
429
00:30:39.845 --> 00:30:42.505
in in crypto, you know, in quotes.
430
00:30:45.205 --> 00:30:56.695
You know, that that that's the peak. I mean, KYC, I mean, what do we want to achieve here? I mean, you want to KYC the trailers? I mean, let it be. But to No. For me to see this
431
00:30:57.355 --> 00:31:07.840
432
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.720
433
00:31:11.855 --> 00:31:18.275
KYC is outright harmful for people who just want to convert one thing to another. Right? There is there is no point
434
00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:20.580
to to buy something.
435
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:27.780
Like I just found out a couple of days ago that if I need to now after Brexit from the UK, I need to send the package to the EU,
436
00:31:29.225 --> 00:31:29.665
it's
437
00:31:30.105 --> 00:31:33.885
they need to know the passport number of the person who actually imports
438
00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:36.845
the the even a gift. Right? What?
439
00:31:37.530 --> 00:31:45.390
Well, I mean this is the same stupidity. Right? If I if I if I send you money and want to take Bitcoin out, why would you need to know why who I am, you know?
440
00:31:46.885 --> 00:31:48.745
What is the purpose of that? There is no
441
00:31:49.125 --> 00:31:53.225
it's not for to stop wash trading, but I'm not going back ever again.
442
00:31:54.485 --> 00:31:54.985
So
443
00:31:56.560 --> 00:32:02.100
absolutely, I mean the way is as listed in that in that tweet there is the
444
00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:03.620
non custodial
445
00:32:03.920 --> 00:32:04.900
k y c
446
00:32:05.265 --> 00:32:19.970
platforms like BISK, which is, you know, the absolute best. You need to you need to go trade there and, you know, even if you if you are trading with friends or, like, friends who you don't trust that much, you can use their system to
447
00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:27.345
to make sure everything goes as planned. And then hold the order is quite the same. I mean, it takes a bit more,
448
00:32:28.365 --> 00:32:29.985
it's it's more centralized
449
00:32:30.765 --> 00:32:31.905
and takes
450
00:32:32.910 --> 00:32:34.050
more to get used
451
00:32:34.510 --> 00:32:37.650
to their system, but it it it's it's a proper escrow system.
452
00:32:37.950 --> 00:32:42.615
It it is quite nice as well. But then, you know, sell things, work for Bitcoin,
453
00:32:43.075 --> 00:32:44.375
earn it, and
454
00:32:44.995 --> 00:32:46.615
obviously mine it. Right?
455
00:32:47.380 --> 00:32:50.280
Then you are paying for electricity, getting bitcoin.
456
00:32:51.620 --> 00:32:56.554
And these are the way for the small people. I mean, I'm not in the world of, you know,
457
00:32:57.654 --> 00:32:58.394
big traders.
458
00:32:59.254 --> 00:33:01.595
I I I leave that to Adam Beck.
459
00:33:03.510 --> 00:33:04.570
460
00:33:05.030 --> 00:33:05.530
Yeah.
461
00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:15.275
I, I, you know, I hate saying this, but but, to the freaks out there, consider liking, subscribing, sharing. It goes a long way. We appreciate you.
462
00:33:16.455 --> 00:33:18.235
Don't get used to me saying that because
463
00:33:18.775 --> 00:33:21.595
it had to vomit in my mouth a little bit while I say it.
464
00:33:23.100 --> 00:33:27.520
I look. I I think, you know, I'm I'm a weirdo a little bit because
465
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:32.000
I I guess I'm I'm known for, you know, trying to increase
466
00:33:33.165 --> 00:33:33.665
solid,
467
00:33:34.044 --> 00:33:36.304
you know, dollar cost averaging, conservative,
468
00:33:36.684 --> 00:33:37.825
no k y c,
469
00:33:38.845 --> 00:33:40.065
saving for the future,
470
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.740
you know, long you know, load time preference thinking.
471
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.505
But at the same time, I fucking love gambling, and I I
472
00:33:48.065 --> 00:33:54.520
and I you know, the concept of trading, I love the concept of trading even though I know that I would get wrecked and most people get wrecked,
473
00:33:55.320 --> 00:33:56.300
if they do it,
474
00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:57.500
because
475
00:33:57.880 --> 00:34:02.380
and this is why I love the concept of of sat stacking, just in general, just investing,
476
00:34:03.265 --> 00:34:12.710
or saving for your future. It's skin in the game. This idea of skin in the game, like, we live in a world where engagement numbers are easy to to fake,
477
00:34:13.330 --> 00:34:15.270
where, like, every metric is fakable.
478
00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:19.830
It's like a post truth world people say. But at the end of the day,
479
00:34:20.565 --> 00:34:25.464
if if you put your money where your mouth is, and now we have actually good money to do that with SATS,
480
00:34:27.590 --> 00:34:34.090
There's a there's a winner and there's a loser. There's someone that was right and someone that was wrong. We don't have to argue for years and,
481
00:34:34.445 --> 00:34:36.705
you know, endlessly and come to no conclusion.
482
00:34:37.645 --> 00:34:47.890
You know, like, if if you decided to hold ETH at the top of the 2017 bubble instead of Bitcoin, you have way less Sats today. And that is definitive, it is objective,
483
00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:50.645
and there's there's a beauty to it.
484
00:34:53.285 --> 00:34:56.985
485
00:34:58.950 --> 00:35:02.490
486
00:35:05.190 --> 00:35:05.690
So
487
00:35:06.145 --> 00:35:07.445
on another hot topic,
488
00:35:08.225 --> 00:35:14.725
that no one seems to be talking about, I'm gonna switch it again. And by the way, when we leave topics, we'll come back to those topics. I just wanna keep the ball rolling.
489
00:35:15.430 --> 00:35:17.130
Like like to have fun with this,
490
00:35:17.430 --> 00:35:32.865
and keep hitting us with you hit us with questions and stuff in the chat. You know, maybe we don't hit it right away, but we we we will come back to it if we can. So just keep hitting us with stuff in the chat. What? I saw some Zeus questions. We'll circle back to those. Yeah. 100% we'll circle back to Zeus. I love Zeus.
491
00:35:33.589 --> 00:35:38.970
I love that we finally got Tor integrated. Fuck yes. Super excited, but we'll get back to that. Before then,
492
00:35:39.750 --> 00:35:40.810
right now, Coinbase,
493
00:35:41.155 --> 00:35:44.615
the evil empire, they're on the top of the ticker if you're watching the livestream,
494
00:35:45.795 --> 00:35:47.175
trading at about $32,000
495
00:35:47.714 --> 00:35:49.970
right now. Largest exchange in the world,
496
00:35:50.910 --> 00:35:59.165
maybe not by volume because we go back to to fakable metrics and, you know, you can fake those metrics especially if you don't have KYC and you do wash trading,
497
00:35:59.785 --> 00:36:02.045
which is fine by me, you know, all is fair.
498
00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:07.430
Coinbase is the largest exchange in the world by number of Bitcoin they hold. That's an objective measurement.
499
00:36:07.730 --> 00:36:09.990
We know they have about 800,000 Bitcoin.
500
00:36:10.370 --> 00:36:11.990
What isn't talked about
501
00:36:12.515 --> 00:36:15.015
is their custody side, which is way
502
00:36:15.395 --> 00:36:17.735
larger than that. We know that GBTC,
503
00:36:18.515 --> 00:36:20.595
the fake ETF that is traded,
504
00:36:21.090 --> 00:36:22.230
and run by Grayscale,
505
00:36:23.410 --> 00:36:27.670
Digital Currency Group, which is Barry Silbert's company, the parent company of CoinDesk,
506
00:36:28.905 --> 00:36:30.285
has over 650,000
507
00:36:30.745 --> 00:36:34.445
Bitcoin. And guess who they custody it with? They custody it with
508
00:36:34.825 --> 00:36:41.300
Coinbase. And And no one really talks about this. When you when you share those exchange balance charts that are going down,
509
00:36:42.240 --> 00:36:50.275
they don't include that custody number. And I'm guilty of this too. I've I've I've posted that glass note chart saying, look how bullish this is. All the coins are leaving exchanges.
510
00:36:51.934 --> 00:36:55.800
They're leaving exchanges and a lot of them are going into regulated custodians,
511
00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:58.360
the number one being fucking Coinbase.
512
00:36:58.980 --> 00:36:59.480
So,
513
00:37:00.555 --> 00:37:04.095
to the freaks out there that may be concerned about this, you know, we have
514
00:37:04.635 --> 00:37:05.135
over,
515
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:10.780
we we have over we're like 1 and a half 1000000 Bitcoin
516
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:12.460
at least
517
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:14.619
are being custody by Coinbase.
518
00:37:15.985 --> 00:37:18.005
Why or why not should this be a concern?
519
00:37:23.619 --> 00:37:24.760
We'll start with Evan.
520
00:37:28.020 --> 00:37:28.520
521
00:37:28.900 --> 00:37:29.960
on one hand,
522
00:37:31.185 --> 00:37:37.685
you know, any centralized party having a lot of share over something is really not good for the genie of a coin. Right?
523
00:37:38.750 --> 00:37:42.290
However, we don't have the same concerns that we would have,
524
00:37:42.910 --> 00:37:45.730
with, say, a coin that's based on staking
525
00:37:46.350 --> 00:37:46.850
and
526
00:37:47.785 --> 00:37:58.780
and this shareholder be having, like, such a heavy weight as far as, like, voting on different features or whatnot goes. So on one hand, you'd like to see,
527
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:07.295
them to be custodying less, but our network doesn't have the same issues that some of these new tokens and new schemes,
528
00:38:08.155 --> 00:38:10.655
do as far as the POS stuff goes.
529
00:38:11.275 --> 00:38:13.375
So it's a bit of a mixed bag, obviously,
530
00:38:15.750 --> 00:38:22.490
but, you know, we just gotta keep encouraging people to, you know, take custody whenever possible. And, you know,
531
00:38:22.815 --> 00:38:24.115
the biggest part of this
532
00:38:24.575 --> 00:38:25.235
is education.
533
00:38:25.855 --> 00:38:29.635
Obviously, you know, there's gonna be some people who do want a custodian,
534
00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:37.530
but, like, you know, the the people that are listening to the show obviously are gonna be taking control of their keys. Not your keys. Not your coin, etcetera.
535
00:38:39.695 --> 00:38:44.835
536
00:38:45.295 --> 00:38:47.950
You know, they can fork away. They can
537
00:38:48.270 --> 00:38:48.770
manipulate
538
00:38:49.150 --> 00:38:52.609
the fork as well as as we have seen that happening.
539
00:38:53.790 --> 00:38:54.290
Also,
540
00:38:55.045 --> 00:38:59.385
I mean, there are a couple of properties of Bitcoin. I mean, it depends which one,
541
00:39:00.005 --> 00:39:02.025
people came for. I mean, everyone
542
00:39:02.450 --> 00:39:05.750
likes like number go up. Okay? That happens on Coinbase as
543
00:39:06.130 --> 00:39:09.670
well, except when Bitcoin cash pumps rather instead.
544
00:39:10.210 --> 00:39:10.710
Mhmm.
545
00:39:11.935 --> 00:39:16.515
Mhmm. But the Bitcoin which you hold in an on an exchange is not unconfiscatable,
546
00:39:17.295 --> 00:39:27.950
and it is not censorship resistance. And if you came for that properties, then you have nothing to do with exchanges, and you should just never even touch any cost to your
547
00:39:28.515 --> 00:39:29.575
exchange wallet
548
00:39:30.275 --> 00:39:33.654
or however you call it, or hosted once either.
549
00:39:34.515 --> 00:39:37.095
550
00:39:37.620 --> 00:39:43.000
we face, I think it's not even just with Bitcoin, but I think in general, our society is like people
551
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:45.400
really just value convenience
552
00:39:46.115 --> 00:39:48.135
so much more than, like, you know,
553
00:39:48.675 --> 00:39:53.015
sovereignty or privacy. And I I think we all struggle with that. You know, like,
554
00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:57.620
we we're all still carrying a cell phone around on our day to day. Right?
555
00:39:58.000 --> 00:39:59.700
But the thing is with Bitcoin,
556
00:40:00.195 --> 00:40:07.575
the Google there. Yeah. Yeah. The the ease yeah. The the ease of being able to to take control of it
557
00:40:08.035 --> 00:40:09.095
is so low
558
00:40:09.590 --> 00:40:13.770
that you should consider it. You know? And, like, you know, some something
559
00:40:14.470 --> 00:40:14.970
like
560
00:40:15.430 --> 00:40:23.265
like BISK too, right, where you don't have to deal with that KYC. Like, people are still going to the big exchanges because they have the convenience
561
00:40:24.045 --> 00:40:25.905
of their buyers being so so,
562
00:40:26.685 --> 00:40:30.980
so easy, you know, not having to worry about going through all these different payment methods.
563
00:40:31.520 --> 00:40:34.180
But, you know, you're really not gonna regret
564
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:41.154
have these regrets about using these, like, KYC places or keeping your stuff into custody until it's too late,
565
00:40:41.454 --> 00:40:41.954
until
566
00:40:42.255 --> 00:40:47.474
that information is used against you, until you sign into the exchange and they say you can't access
567
00:40:48.080 --> 00:40:52.180
your coins until you go to your bank and they say you can't withdraw your money.
568
00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:55.060
So, you know, it it's hard to
569
00:40:55.915 --> 00:40:56.815
to relay
570
00:40:57.595 --> 00:41:00.335
the the problems and the risk to people
571
00:41:00.955 --> 00:41:06.140
if if they haven't experienced them firsthand. You know? Especially if they're in, like, a western country
572
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:08.860
that that hasn't undergone stuff like,
573
00:41:09.160 --> 00:41:11.580
you know, like like haircuts to their deposits
574
00:41:12.395 --> 00:41:13.935
or or had issues
575
00:41:14.395 --> 00:41:17.375
where with the laws pertaining to Bitcoin have changed.
576
00:41:17.994 --> 00:41:18.494
So,
577
00:41:19.275 --> 00:41:20.015
you know,
578
00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:23.260
like I said, education is is a huge part of
579
00:41:23.560 --> 00:41:24.359
580
00:41:26.040 --> 00:41:30.595
yeah. Go ahead. To sum it up, I mean, I I think both, I think all of us agree here
581
00:41:30.975 --> 00:41:31.215
that,
582
00:41:32.095 --> 00:41:36.115
if if you have if you have your your Bitcoin with Coinbase or GBTC
583
00:41:37.080 --> 00:41:37.820
or Robinhood,
584
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:43.260
or on any exchange, you know, ours the sponsor of of Tales from the Crypt,
585
00:41:43.640 --> 00:41:44.380
Cash App,
586
00:41:45.415 --> 00:41:47.595
it you don't own Bitcoin. You own an IOU,
587
00:41:48.055 --> 00:41:48.555
and,
588
00:41:49.015 --> 00:41:53.115
you'll learn very quickly in a bad situation that that Bitcoin is not yours.
589
00:41:53.630 --> 00:41:56.369
And you're you're missing out because Bitcoin gives you the ability
590
00:41:56.829 --> 00:41:59.329
to actually hold your own wealth and control your own wealth,
591
00:41:59.950 --> 00:42:07.125
and to maintain your sovereignty, and and you should exert that that opt that option to you. You you should practice that option, and if you don't,
592
00:42:07.665 --> 00:42:11.560
I that's fine. You know, that option is is is open to you, but,
593
00:42:13.000 --> 00:42:15.100
I think you're being a chump if you do that.
594
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:17.580
As as far as Coinbase is concerned,
595
00:42:18.045 --> 00:42:22.225
I don't think it's really that much of a threat for Bitcoin. At the end of the day, does it really matter
596
00:42:23.005 --> 00:42:45.345
if if Barry Silbert is self custodying versus Coinbase? It's probably the same threat model, right, with the US government? Oh, yeah. Talking about the government for sure. I mean, you think It's the same idea. Right? It's like, whatever. Stand up for you if uncle Sam comes knocking? No fucking way. So What's the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen there is, like, they I guess they could market sell those Bitcoin, but they'd be idiots.
597
00:42:46.910 --> 00:42:52.130
Yep. Or I I guess it's a honeypot where you you could have, like, a single hacker could could
598
00:42:52.565 --> 00:42:56.265
fuck them. But I I think at this point, they've learned their lesson. They're professionals.
599
00:42:57.285 --> 00:42:58.025
They probably
600
00:42:58.325 --> 00:43:04.950
they probably have that cold storage down pretty well for everyone except the US government. Right? So, like, the US government could come in.
601
00:43:05.890 --> 00:43:06.390
602
00:43:06.769 --> 00:43:11.395
603
00:43:12.655 --> 00:43:14.115
604
00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:22.020
605
00:43:23.625 --> 00:43:26.365
officials just via via a corporate partnership.
606
00:43:26.825 --> 00:43:28.605
607
00:43:29.065 --> 00:43:30.830
608
00:43:31.230 --> 00:43:33.490
Randy McMillan in the chat mentioned
609
00:43:33.870 --> 00:43:34.370
that,
610
00:43:35.470 --> 00:43:38.930
one of our representatives in the US government, Patrick McHenry,
611
00:43:40.525 --> 00:43:45.505
has posted the Bitcoin white paper on his government website,
612
00:43:46.685 --> 00:43:47.585
on mchenry.house.gov
613
00:43:50.970 --> 00:43:54.349
614
00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:56.510
615
00:43:57.130 --> 00:43:58.109
and I think
616
00:43:58.454 --> 00:44:04.395
kind of is is a good time to bring up this conversation. Right? So so recently, we had fake so Satoshi,
617
00:44:05.335 --> 00:44:05.835
CSW,
618
00:44:07.670 --> 00:44:08.730
long time fraud,
619
00:44:09.589 --> 00:44:12.490
go after our Bitcoin developers, specifically
620
00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:13.690
bitcoin.org,
621
00:44:14.944 --> 00:44:15.525
and bitcoincore.org,
622
00:44:16.385 --> 00:44:18.005
and try and get them to remove,
623
00:44:19.025 --> 00:44:22.005
the Bitcoin white paper. But I believe there's other attacks happening.
624
00:44:23.620 --> 00:44:24.520
You know, bitcoincore.org
625
00:44:25.700 --> 00:44:28.200
quickly removed the white paper from their website.
626
00:44:29.060 --> 00:44:29.560
Bitcoin.org
627
00:44:31.515 --> 00:44:33.055
decided to stay on the line.
628
00:44:33.434 --> 00:44:33.934
And
629
00:44:34.234 --> 00:44:38.734
since then, we've had a Streisand effect where all these people have come in
630
00:44:39.120 --> 00:44:42.820
and posted the Bitcoin white paper on their respective websites,
631
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:47.475
ultimately, with Patrick McHenry here posting it on the house.gov
632
00:44:47.775 --> 00:44:48.835
website just now.
633
00:44:49.135 --> 00:44:50.115
So so,
634
00:44:50.655 --> 00:44:56.720
we have Hamish in the in the chat saying, please don't feed the trolls. Absolutely. I prefer not to talk about them, but it is,
635
00:44:57.900 --> 00:45:00.000
you know, they they forced our hand here.
636
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:02.800
How do we feel about this? How do we feel about Bitcoin,
637
00:45:04.245 --> 00:45:04.745
core.org
638
00:45:05.045 --> 00:45:09.545
removing it from the website? How do we feel about the community response? Where do you guys stand on this?
639
00:45:10.700 --> 00:45:12.640
640
00:45:13.420 --> 00:45:16.560
You know, on one hand, it's not great to see
641
00:45:17.180 --> 00:45:20.464
the core devs cave to a like this
642
00:45:20.924 --> 00:45:25.905
after, you know, very little discussion too. I believe the pull request to remove it from the core
643
00:45:26.230 --> 00:45:30.410
website got merged in after, you know, just 3 acts and probably about
644
00:45:30.869 --> 00:45:33.290
2 hours of discussion and post.
645
00:45:33.835 --> 00:45:38.095
So on one hand, that wasn't so encouraging to to see.
646
00:45:38.635 --> 00:45:41.934
But on the other hand, you also don't want
647
00:45:42.650 --> 00:45:45.790
these people that are doing important work as far as core goes,
648
00:45:46.410 --> 00:45:57.565
you know, just going to court and and dealing with these idiots. You know, we have more important battles ahead of us. Like, we we need to get Schnorr and Taproot merged in, and I'd really like to see that happen this year.
649
00:45:58.660 --> 00:45:59.160
So,
650
00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:02.360
you know, it's it's a bit of a wash
651
00:46:02.740 --> 00:46:03.480
there, but,
652
00:46:05.195 --> 00:46:07.935
you know, it's just very encouraging to see the community
653
00:46:08.475 --> 00:46:11.195
just all step up and, you know, host it.
654
00:46:11.675 --> 00:46:14.095
I think the funniest one was Umbrell
655
00:46:14.569 --> 00:46:19.950
creating an app where you could host a copy of the white paper off your Umbrell note in their app store.
656
00:46:20.250 --> 00:46:21.390
I thought that was great.
657
00:46:21.690 --> 00:46:22.589
So, you know,
658
00:46:23.805 --> 00:46:29.505
this community really thrives when we show our strength in numbers, and that was, like, a really positive and encouraging
659
00:46:30.125 --> 00:46:31.025
thing to see.
660
00:46:32.090 --> 00:46:33.230
So, yeah, I mean,
661
00:46:33.930 --> 00:46:34.430
obviously,
662
00:46:34.730 --> 00:46:39.790
this Greg guy is an absolute fraud, but, you know, we're we're still gonna have to deal
663
00:46:40.345 --> 00:46:51.099
with his actions for a bit longer. But, you know, when we act together like we did and, you know, we saw countless people upload the white paper, you know, we're stronger and we're all better off for it.
664
00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:58.555
665
00:46:59.335 --> 00:47:01.755
show. You know, bitcoin core org
666
00:47:02.055 --> 00:47:04.155
is not the Bitcoin core code.
667
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:09.460
It doesn't matter what's on it until it is reliable source of the Bitcoin core binaries.
668
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.665
But even those, we should take from torrents, we should check the signatures, we should check the hashes.
669
00:47:16.245 --> 00:47:16.745
Everyone
670
00:47:17.685 --> 00:47:20.665
who is running a Bitcoin full node has a copy
671
00:47:22.319 --> 00:47:23.059
with himself
672
00:47:23.839 --> 00:47:29.700
there on the on the blockchain. So just run a node, you have the white paper with white paper there.
673
00:47:32.295 --> 00:47:32.954
You know,
674
00:47:33.494 --> 00:47:34.315
I I think
675
00:47:35.015 --> 00:47:35.654
it's just,
676
00:47:36.055 --> 00:47:40.154
it's exactly achieved what what he wanted to do, that he got publicity
677
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:43.020
and, you know, a bit of fun or something,
678
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:44.380
selling more BSV.
679
00:47:46.600 --> 00:47:48.300
I think it's it is meaningless.
680
00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:49.500
681
00:47:50.615 --> 00:47:54.234
so I would push back on meaningless. I think it's a perfect teaching moment.
682
00:47:55.494 --> 00:48:00.620
I think I think this is why we're here. Right? This idea that if you have it on a centralized website,
683
00:48:01.160 --> 00:48:05.980
if you have a centralized actor that you can pressure through legal bullshit, through all this other bullshit,
684
00:48:06.600 --> 00:48:08.140
then you'll probably be successful.
685
00:48:09.065 --> 00:48:11.724
The beauty of distributed networks, distributed systems
686
00:48:12.265 --> 00:48:14.045
is that it's not hosted in one place,
687
00:48:14.744 --> 00:48:16.925
that you can't spot it easily. Right?
688
00:48:17.300 --> 00:48:20.280
689
00:48:20.580 --> 00:48:26.725
what came to be is is the best which came to be is that, the proposal or the kind of block
690
00:48:27.205 --> 00:48:27.925
entry of,
691
00:48:28.405 --> 00:48:31.545
Vladimir van der van der Laan, the lead Bitcoin,
692
00:48:32.805 --> 00:48:33.305
maintainer,
693
00:48:34.565 --> 00:48:35.705
repository maintainer
694
00:48:36.190 --> 00:48:42.770
that which is pushing for the decentralization of the of the hosting apparatus, you know, putting more emphasis on the torrents.
695
00:48:43.215 --> 00:48:46.675
And, I mean, you know, he was looking into IPFS and things like that, which is just
696
00:48:46.975 --> 00:48:47.695
torrents with the DNS.
697
00:48:49.535 --> 00:48:50.035
And
698
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:53.640
that is actually good. We should do that even without
699
00:48:53.940 --> 00:48:54.440
getting,
700
00:48:54.980 --> 00:48:59.080
you know, pressure from these things. And we get this kind of small
701
00:49:00.015 --> 00:49:02.915
pressure from this kind of, clown actor,
702
00:49:03.855 --> 00:49:05.875
and then, you know, we are ready when there
703
00:49:06.255 --> 00:49:07.475
are real threats.
704
00:49:09.070 --> 00:49:10.609
705
00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:18.745
this is gonna be like a a fucking walk in the park compared to what we have coming to us in the years to come, I I think, at least from my opinion.
706
00:49:19.125 --> 00:49:24.665
So, you know, if we can't handle this properly, we're gonna be, you know, ill equipped to deal with actual
707
00:49:24.965 --> 00:49:26.505
big state actor threats.
708
00:49:27.109 --> 00:49:41.915
And, you know Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. You brought up Vladimir, and, you know, I just wanna tip my hat to him. You know, he's done such an amazing job as the maintainer of CORE. And, you know, to see his, his blog, to see that he's he's stepping back, you know,
709
00:49:43.789 --> 00:49:44.450
You know,
710
00:49:44.750 --> 00:49:51.730
obviously, I I'm gonna be sad to see him go because he's given us so much, but it's ultimately gonna be for the good of the project to further,
711
00:49:52.705 --> 00:49:54.085
work to decentralize
712
00:49:54.385 --> 00:49:56.965
this thing and make it even more resilient.
713
00:49:57.665 --> 00:49:57.985
So
714
00:49:59.610 --> 00:50:02.570
and on that note, I'd really like to see some of the other,
715
00:50:03.930 --> 00:50:04.430
implementations
716
00:50:04.810 --> 00:50:11.645
of Bitcoin get some more love. Like, let's give Bitcoin Knots some some love because you know? Yeah. And I like to pet a unicorn.
717
00:50:14.345 --> 00:50:16.045
Knots. And and what's the other one?
718
00:50:17.050 --> 00:50:18.350
719
00:50:18.890 --> 00:50:20.970
720
00:50:21.530 --> 00:50:23.869
There there's one other pretty big one. But
721
00:50:24.250 --> 00:50:25.390
regardless, even
722
00:50:26.105 --> 00:50:28.285
besides, like, the maintainers getting targeted,
723
00:50:28.664 --> 00:50:31.565
it it's good to just have more diversity in the ecosystem,
724
00:50:32.184 --> 00:50:38.620
in case, like, a bug comes up and, you know, ends up wiping off, like, a majority of the network. Because, like, think about it because,
725
00:50:38.920 --> 00:50:40.300
like, most Bitcoin
726
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:42.760
nodes out there are running core, and,
727
00:50:43.705 --> 00:50:49.405
728
00:50:51.200 --> 00:50:59.940
I I don't I don't I don't know. I don't I don't know if that I think running older older versions of core kind of solves the same same threat model without
729
00:51:00.385 --> 00:51:03.525
without the hopium involved with having, you know, multiple,
730
00:51:04.785 --> 00:51:09.045
you know, well maintained clients. I I think I think a major argument here for
731
00:51:10.180 --> 00:51:14.200
NIMS as developers is huge. You know, like, I have a
732
00:51:14.980 --> 00:51:25.360
Yeah. Ton of respect for Vladimir and and everything he's done, and he's put in his time, and I respect him walking away. And, hopefully, you know, he comes back as a nim, or maybe he's already been contributing as a nim, and we don't even know.
733
00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:29.140
And that gives you some some extra protection there. Right?
734
00:51:35.255 --> 00:51:35.755
735
00:51:36.215 --> 00:51:37.435
If I'm not running core,
736
00:51:37.735 --> 00:51:38.715
what do I run?
737
00:51:39.175 --> 00:51:45.310
I can still run core. I I love core and all they've done, but, I've been poking around and messing with a little bit.
738
00:51:46.329 --> 00:51:46.829
So
739
00:51:47.215 --> 00:51:49.715
hope that I'll change it up a little bit with my nodes.
740
00:51:50.255 --> 00:51:52.275
I really would like to see some of these,
741
00:51:52.815 --> 00:51:57.270
prebuilt node solutions, like, like our Nodl or MyNode or Umbrell
742
00:51:57.650 --> 00:51:58.310
or RaspiBlitz,
743
00:51:59.250 --> 00:51:59.750
potentially,
744
00:52:00.130 --> 00:52:03.590
you know, to offer up other options. But, you know, there's also
745
00:52:04.215 --> 00:52:16.180
746
00:52:16.800 --> 00:52:18.500
747
00:52:18.994 --> 00:52:26.615
the one which everything is tested with. So, you know, we we are we are building so many services on top. You know, we cannot just change pull the rug, you know, under,
748
00:52:27.394 --> 00:52:44.924
that is that, you know, that is an impossible kind of, you know, development task. But what I'm was thinking, for example, to offer more lightning implementations, for example, because now we have like, you know, slightly I mean, sometimes they are diverging and then coming coming together again in terms of what functions are of are being offered.
749
00:52:45.550 --> 00:52:47.810
You know, that would be an interesting thing to do, but,
750
00:52:48.190 --> 00:52:55.234
I I don't think that, you know, it would make sense to to run anything else than core. I mean, what we are looking at is is
751
00:52:55.855 --> 00:53:00.434
when when do we update to the latest, you know, because we need to make sure that everything is is
752
00:53:00.829 --> 00:53:02.690
is working and we are on
753
00:53:03.150 --> 00:53:03.650
20
754
00:53:04.589 --> 00:53:06.770
for now. And then, you know,
755
00:53:07.470 --> 00:53:07.970
does
756
00:53:09.235 --> 00:53:11.095
0 21 come with the new lightning release?
757
00:53:11.795 --> 00:53:12.615
I mean, probably.
758
00:53:12.995 --> 00:53:13.655
We'll see.
759
00:53:15.560 --> 00:53:18.460
Yeah. I think course course course days. I mean, you know, there is
760
00:53:19.880 --> 00:53:25.075
I mean, first of all, not it's quite close to core, isn't it? So why would I want
761
00:53:25.935 --> 00:53:29.795
to go to a fork which is which has less kind of eyes on it.
762
00:53:30.895 --> 00:53:34.610
And then, I mean, things people were like my 2 sets has
763
00:53:35.230 --> 00:53:35.730
mentioned,
764
00:53:36.270 --> 00:53:40.290
b coin and, like, etcd and things. I mean, we can do some
765
00:53:40.914 --> 00:53:43.255
kind of, like, neutral filters were were
766
00:53:44.355 --> 00:53:47.634
basically served by both knots and and,
767
00:53:48.035 --> 00:53:48.535
BTCD
768
00:53:49.785 --> 00:53:54.740
as I recall. But now they are in core as well, so, you know, we should just, go on with that.
769
00:53:55.280 --> 00:54:04.964
I, yeah, I I feel to have one stable thing is is the best, but then I mean, I have run multiple nerds. I might look into, you know, having
770
00:54:05.265 --> 00:54:08.960
1 or 2 different, like, you know, I do like what what,
771
00:54:09.359 --> 00:54:12.020
the BitMEX Research Fort Monitor does in this,
772
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:18.395
topic that they are just running multiple versions and multiple implementation and see if there is any any divergence.
773
00:54:19.815 --> 00:54:22.155
But that's not for the, you know,
774
00:54:22.935 --> 00:54:24.315
simple user, I think.
775
00:54:25.910 --> 00:54:26.890
776
00:54:27.270 --> 00:54:30.810
it's a lot of challenges in doing it and, you know, especially with all these,
777
00:54:32.365 --> 00:54:42.920
you know, these prebuilt node solutions having so many different bits of software, like, not everything is gonna be compatible either. And, you like I said, the cost to maintain is is really big too.
778
00:54:43.540 --> 00:54:45.240
So I don't know. May maybe
779
00:54:45.700 --> 00:54:54.325
it's best for, you know, someone new coming up to build something instead of trying to bootstrap this to an existing implementation. Or
780
00:54:54.805 --> 00:54:55.385
781
00:54:56.405 --> 00:55:00.180
I I think I look. I think that this idea of of running
782
00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:02.180
old old core nodes
783
00:55:02.720 --> 00:55:19.790
protects you from most of the risks that we're discussing here. Right? These risks that that maybe the with that has, like, other bugs in it. So, like, going back like that has a lot of problems. I I see it. Yeah. But so does I mean, it's not like there's no trade offs to having multiple clients, and we've seen this, you know,
784
00:55:21.290 --> 00:55:24.190
with Ethereum and stuff. What what happens is is
785
00:55:24.795 --> 00:55:28.015
is a big exchange just has to run all the clients,
786
00:55:29.194 --> 00:55:36.650
and they have to run them all at the same time to see what's the issue. And if if there's a disagreement between the clients, there's no clear set,
787
00:55:37.430 --> 00:55:43.049
you know, what what which way do we go from here? Like, what does what does Vitalik say? Which way should we proceed?
788
00:55:47.015 --> 00:55:52.475
But with with with Core, it's very simple. If if there's a if there's a fork in the future,
789
00:55:53.079 --> 00:55:57.339
an accidental fork that has to do with something that was was, you know, pushed in
790
00:55:57.640 --> 00:55:58.140
serostipitously,
791
00:55:58.680 --> 00:56:01.579
like, something that we didn't know got put into a new core release,
792
00:56:02.194 --> 00:56:05.734
we go with the older notes. Like, we follow the older notes. It's a very
793
00:56:06.035 --> 00:56:06.535
straightforward
794
00:56:06.915 --> 00:56:07.415
concept.
795
00:56:08.275 --> 00:56:19.859
And then once if if you add this stuff, it's yeah. Can you guys stop trading? If you add this other stuff in there, it gets it gets all convoluted. It's like, what is the objective truth? I don't know if we solve anything. I think we, like, almost add more issues.
796
00:56:20.255 --> 00:56:28.355
A big thing here is lack of auto updates, which is key in core that they don't allow auto updates because if you have someone able to push an auto update,
797
00:56:28.880 --> 00:56:30.740
they could push malicious update.
798
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:40.665
Yeah. With these node packages, that's not the case except for Raspberry Blitz and Ronin Dojo, which make you manually update, which a lot of people think is a negative.
799
00:56:41.045 --> 00:56:45.705
You know, I would say is is a a massive benefit. Like, if you're a Minode user and you're doing,
800
00:56:46.850 --> 00:56:51.430
auto updates, that's fine. Like, I understand it's a convenience thing for you or a normal user,
801
00:56:51.970 --> 00:56:59.145
but but you're not protecting from this direct vector. This this threat model that we're talking about right here, you're just not part of that protection.
802
00:57:00.484 --> 00:57:09.555
803
00:57:10.095 --> 00:57:11.075
804
00:57:11.695 --> 00:57:26.645
805
00:57:27.125 --> 00:57:32.905
pace that, you know, if you're updating or if you're not updating, there's, like, a good chance you're gonna, like,
806
00:57:33.525 --> 00:57:35.125
you know, hit hit an issue that,
807
00:57:36.230 --> 00:57:39.690
you know, could lead to lost funds or, you know, incompatibility
808
00:57:40.549 --> 00:57:45.529
as, you know, things are getting ironed out now. So it's probably best for you to keep that updated.
809
00:57:45.895 --> 00:57:48.715
810
00:57:49.015 --> 00:57:54.100
that if we allow auto updates, then we might have COVID tracking implemented in core. That
811
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:56.500
is something that we need to be careful about.
812
00:57:56.800 --> 00:57:57.300
Wow.
813
00:57:57.680 --> 00:57:58.660
Feel for that.
814
00:57:59.440 --> 00:57:59.940
Hi.
815
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:01.940
816
00:58:02.575 --> 00:58:07.555
about the kind of note packaging and just kind of this kind of approach of everything,
817
00:58:07.855 --> 00:58:10.115
but then we we we start to
818
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:14.900
base too many things on Docker, Microsoft Docker to say that,
819
00:58:15.520 --> 00:58:17.060
which comes with packages
820
00:58:17.795 --> 00:58:20.615
which are not even you cannot even check there.
821
00:58:21.474 --> 00:58:24.295
So the unsigned packages which you just downloading
822
00:58:24.860 --> 00:58:28.320
It's, like, worse than the Google Play Store or the or the Istory
823
00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:37.115
or whatever Apple Store in on on the phone that you are just, you know, updating these apps. And it's it's a concern because, basically, every
824
00:58:38.875 --> 00:58:43.055
like, speak speaking about the kind of, you know, hardware and, you know, what what we are
825
00:58:43.470 --> 00:58:45.810
what we are afraid of when we are running these things.
826
00:58:46.670 --> 00:58:48.050
You know, apart from us,
827
00:58:48.430 --> 00:59:01.830
with the rest of this, you know, everyone is just seem to take the easy route and, you know, just just use Docker. It's so easy. And it's basically it's not anymore it's not just a Bitcoin and lightning node. It's it's a it's a Bitcoin,
828
00:59:02.210 --> 00:59:03.510
lightning and docker node.
829
00:59:04.290 --> 00:59:06.070
830
00:59:06.690 --> 00:59:10.710
with docker images, it's possible to make the images a bit viable,
831
00:59:11.465 --> 00:59:21.380
but the nature of the of the software and how it works, it's like most of the stuff that you're gonna pull down aren't gonna be verifiable. You're gonna be like most by and large pulling down binaries.
832
00:59:22.080 --> 00:59:26.500
So, yeah, that that that's another risk in having something like Docker in your stack.
833
00:59:28.005 --> 00:59:28.745
834
00:59:29.605 --> 00:59:37.680
the freak should be building from source. I know the freaks aren't building from source, and most of the freaks if you're not building from source, you should at least be verifying your PGP signatures.
835
00:59:38.380 --> 00:59:43.040
Yeah. I know most of the freaks aren't doing that. You're you can there's a guide at usepgp.com,
836
00:59:44.735 --> 00:59:46.095
if you wanna check that out.
837
00:59:46.495 --> 00:59:50.195
Randy McMillan mentioned and and the reason for both of these things,
838
00:59:51.295 --> 00:59:56.900
is because you wanna make sure and and this is what Open Arms and Evan were just talking about. You wanna make sure that
839
00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:00.500
at least, if you can't read code, you wanna make sure that, like, when Evan
840
01:00:01.200 --> 01:00:07.975
builds Zeus and he has a new update for Zeus Mhmm. Which is the lead maintainer for, you wanna make sure that that that
841
01:00:08.355 --> 01:00:09.495
application file,
842
01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:18.720
that installation file doesn't get compromised in between you and Evan. At least you know that, like, I'm trusting Evan and I don't want it to get changed. And that's what
843
01:00:19.325 --> 01:00:21.185
the verification, the PGP verification does.
844
01:00:23.005 --> 01:00:27.425
I another thing that people don't really talk about, and Randy McMillan mentioned this
845
01:00:29.030 --> 01:00:30.170
earlier in the chat,
846
01:00:30.790 --> 01:00:31.930
seed torrent releases,
847
01:00:33.270 --> 01:00:34.650
of each release ASAP.
848
01:00:35.110 --> 01:00:36.250
That already happens,
849
01:00:36.895 --> 01:00:39.635
and people don't really talk about this. A torrent by design
850
01:00:40.495 --> 01:00:43.155
verifies the hash of the file that was uploaded.
851
01:00:43.775 --> 01:00:44.675
So actually,
852
01:00:45.180 --> 01:00:50.080
there's an argument to be made that for that average user who's not gonna verify their PGP signatures,
853
01:00:52.685 --> 01:00:56.145
maybe they should download through torrents. Have you guys given any thought to this?
854
01:00:56.925 --> 01:01:02.970
855
01:01:04.910 --> 01:01:07.049
you know, the hashes of all the bits.
856
01:01:07.509 --> 01:01:12.275
So, yeah, I I would say, generally speaking, there's a better you have better security
857
01:01:13.934 --> 01:01:16.434
security assurances by downloading a torrent,
858
01:01:17.135 --> 01:01:17.635
versus
859
01:01:18.190 --> 01:01:18.690
downloading
860
01:01:19.070 --> 01:01:20.050
a file directly,
861
01:01:20.350 --> 01:01:23.730
at least if you're downloading the torrent from a verifiable source.
862
01:01:24.670 --> 01:01:26.450
So that that's an interesting point.
863
01:01:26.875 --> 01:01:38.070
864
01:01:41.090 --> 01:01:41.910
They are
865
01:01:43.875 --> 01:01:45.174
distributed through torrents
866
01:01:45.474 --> 01:01:51.330
first of all, and then there is a server where you can download from, but it's probably quicker to get the torrents if you are not the first one to download.
867
01:01:52.770 --> 01:01:55.590
And, I mean, all all these things I mean, even if you are,
868
01:01:56.290 --> 01:01:56.870
I mean,
869
01:01:57.730 --> 01:02:04.684
even you could do that with with Zeus just to, you know, put put in a torrent link as well. I mean, you need to figure out how to see it properly
870
01:02:04.984 --> 01:02:08.605
the first time or to how to how to put it in trackers, but then
871
01:02:09.370 --> 01:02:16.270
it is a quite nice way to to download it. And it works on on mobiles as well very nicely. And then as you said,
872
01:02:16.650 --> 01:02:19.265
Matt, it auto checks the the,
873
01:02:19.805 --> 01:02:21.184
hash at least.
874
01:02:21.484 --> 01:02:25.424
So it it's a good step, which is quite difficult to do on the mobile otherwise.
875
01:02:26.940 --> 01:02:32.800
876
01:02:33.500 --> 01:02:38.105
For Zeus, we have one copy hosted on our website, and then we have another copy,
877
01:02:38.964 --> 01:02:43.785
in our GitHub repo. So if you're doing this, try to cross reference. That's good practice.
878
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:47.780
I see a question from Hamish. He asked, is Umbrell
879
01:02:48.240 --> 01:02:49.380
based on Docker?
880
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:50.819
Yes. It is.
881
01:02:51.175 --> 01:02:52.635
It manages all its packages
882
01:02:52.935 --> 01:02:55.355
with Docker, so be mindful of that.
883
01:02:58.215 --> 01:03:00.970
Yeah. L and d just got reproducible Docker
884
01:03:01.350 --> 01:03:01.850
builds,
885
01:03:03.190 --> 01:03:04.490
or they're about
886
01:03:04.790 --> 01:03:06.490
to release that, I believe, with
887
01:03:06.869 --> 01:03:07.369
0.12
888
01:03:07.750 --> 01:03:08.490
or 0.13,
889
01:03:08.869 --> 01:03:09.525
I think.
890
01:03:10.005 --> 01:03:10.505
So,
891
01:03:11.125 --> 01:03:14.265
check that out if you're using Docker in your stack.
892
01:03:14.805 --> 01:03:15.625
893
01:03:16.885 --> 01:03:22.079
says you have to find the torrent from somewhere. I mean, I I think, like, the average user can confirm a torrent
894
01:03:22.859 --> 01:03:24.240
link or torrent
895
01:03:25.180 --> 01:03:26.400
magnet URL.
896
01:03:28.380 --> 01:03:32.234
897
01:03:32.775 --> 01:03:35.914
898
01:03:36.910 --> 01:03:40.670
it's like a harder workflow to just, like, verify stuff, generally speaking, or any
899
01:03:42.510 --> 01:03:44.370
900
01:03:45.155 --> 01:03:54.560
901
01:03:55.180 --> 01:04:00.315
902
01:04:00.714 --> 01:04:09.375
And it's just, you know, you you would just think why is why is all that code around it? You know, what does that do? So, you know, it just makes makes PGP natural.
903
01:04:10.440 --> 01:04:13.260
904
01:04:14.760 --> 01:04:20.285
I know there's some freaks that prefer that I just never discuss altcoins, but sometimes I bring it up when there's a learning experience.
905
01:04:21.225 --> 01:04:23.405
With Monero, a lot of people said that,
906
01:04:24.185 --> 01:04:27.390
a blind shot 256 hash doesn't help you.
907
01:04:27.789 --> 01:04:30.289
You need to have a PGP signed hash.
908
01:04:31.549 --> 01:04:33.010
But it turned out that,
909
01:04:33.390 --> 01:04:33.890
getmonero.org
910
01:04:34.990 --> 01:04:35.809
got compromised.
911
01:04:36.325 --> 01:04:42.025
They changed the file, but the hash was hosted on a different web server and that server wasn't,
912
01:04:43.650 --> 01:04:47.350
that server wasn't compromised. So you didn't actually even need to do a PGP verification.
913
01:04:47.730 --> 01:04:52.710
If you just did a simple shot 256 hash of the file, you saw that it was the wrong
914
01:04:53.025 --> 01:04:54.885
hash, and someone alerted,
915
01:04:55.424 --> 01:05:00.005
the rest of the community within, like, 40 minutes. There was, like, a 1000 malicious downloads or something.
916
01:05:00.550 --> 01:05:06.890
Which I I count as a win. That's a win for open source software. Right? Yeah. Relatively speaking, that's a really quick turnaround, 40 minutes.
917
01:05:07.325 --> 01:05:12.545
918
01:05:14.390 --> 01:05:18.890
919
01:05:19.430 --> 01:05:24.555
Yeah. Yes. I mean, you could do it on Twitter, but you could put an TXT file on,
920
01:05:25.494 --> 01:05:33.890
on GitHub or GitLab or wherever you're hosting your repo. I mean, until it is is a p PGP signed, it is fine. And, you know, not everyone will,
921
01:05:34.750 --> 01:05:36.830
verify but, you know, if I if I
922
01:05:38.030 --> 01:05:38.930
I've came into
923
01:05:40.035 --> 01:05:43.655
this situation couple of times that I was, like, downloading, you know, the first,
924
01:05:44.194 --> 01:05:52.110
release candidate release candidate images from, like, or binaries from LND and then, you know, I found out that well, guys this is, you know, it's not
925
01:05:52.650 --> 01:05:54.910
I found who signed it but this wasn't the one
926
01:05:55.335 --> 01:06:01.335
developer who was, written on the website and then, you know, went to the Slack and said, well, look, this is not working out but,
927
01:06:01.975 --> 01:06:06.790
or your your key has expired and things like that. And, you know, I I knew that at
928
01:06:07.150 --> 01:06:07.650
least
929
01:06:08.010 --> 01:06:08.510
I
930
01:06:08.870 --> 01:06:09.370
checked.
931
01:06:09.730 --> 01:06:11.670
Okay. There's magnet link. Thank you.
932
01:06:14.135 --> 01:06:21.595
I appreciate that. So just to be clear everything there. Yeah. You just take it in in on Windows, the Qbit torrent, q QB,
933
01:06:22.829 --> 01:06:24.130
I think. Yeah. QBIT
934
01:06:24.670 --> 01:06:25.170
torrent
935
01:06:26.349 --> 01:06:27.570
is an open source
936
01:06:31.565 --> 01:06:33.744
torrent client, which you should download
937
01:06:35.005 --> 01:06:35.825
on Windows.
938
01:06:36.204 --> 01:06:39.310
And then, I mean, you have, like, transmission on Linux
939
01:06:39.710 --> 01:06:40.210
and
940
01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:41.970
Mac. Someone else will,
941
01:06:42.750 --> 01:06:47.170
say what to use. And you just paste this link as it is
942
01:06:47.550 --> 01:06:48.370
into the
943
01:06:48.704 --> 01:06:53.845
torrent window, and it's done. That's how you download download things. As you can see, it does
944
01:06:54.464 --> 01:07:00.520
945
01:07:01.480 --> 01:07:04.140
946
01:07:05.615 --> 01:07:12.515
947
01:07:13.130 --> 01:07:14.589
948
01:07:14.890 --> 01:07:24.195
really that, like, these streaming services really had to come to to prominence and get good, you know? Like, I don't think we'd see Spotify as as soon as we saw it if it wasn't for something like BitTorrent
949
01:07:24.735 --> 01:07:26.595
really putting the pressure on the industry.
950
01:07:27.055 --> 01:07:32.830
So, you know, shout out to, to BitTorrent. It's incredible technology, and you should still use it today.
951
01:07:33.450 --> 01:07:38.555
952
01:07:39.755 --> 01:07:41.694
4 times bigger wall of text
953
01:07:42.395 --> 01:07:44.335
within a GPG signature.
954
01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:45.375
And then
955
01:07:46.130 --> 01:07:53.110
the the magnet bit, you should copy paste into your, torrent client. Yeah. That's what that's what that's where we got to. You know?
956
01:07:53.895 --> 01:08:07.330
957
01:08:08.030 --> 01:08:09.810
medium that it's legit. Right?
958
01:08:10.605 --> 01:08:12.625
Then, you know, don't trust any single
959
01:08:13.085 --> 01:08:18.305
source as a source of truth. You know, that's what this whole Bitcoin thing is all about. Like, no one entity
960
01:08:18.925 --> 01:08:19.665
should be
961
01:08:20.110 --> 01:08:27.090
should be trusted. Like, you should be able you should have split up that trust across multiple parties and verify through multiple different sources,
962
01:08:27.645 --> 01:08:31.905
like sources that, you know, aren't connected to each other. And that's what this thing is all about.
963
01:08:33.165 --> 01:08:39.060
964
01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:40.020
GPG
965
01:08:40.640 --> 01:08:42.580
and, verify all of their
966
01:08:42.915 --> 01:08:43.415
signatures
967
01:08:43.715 --> 01:08:47.255
for software they download. And if your developer is not providing
968
01:08:48.035 --> 01:08:49.015
signed downloads,
969
01:08:49.795 --> 01:08:54.370
shame on them. Shame them publicly. Shame them loudly. Don't use the software.
970
01:08:58.165 --> 01:09:00.985
Okay. Next subject. Let's fucking go.
971
01:09:01.764 --> 01:09:02.264
Encryption.
972
01:09:02.965 --> 01:09:05.465
End to end encryption. Reduced knowledge
973
01:09:06.130 --> 01:09:08.230
of what is going on by your users.
974
01:09:08.850 --> 01:09:11.510
We are seeing now signal is hitting,
975
01:09:11.890 --> 01:09:15.750
you know well, really, people should use GPG, but they're not
976
01:09:16.115 --> 01:09:16.855
once again.
977
01:09:18.115 --> 01:09:21.255
The the real game changer is when you provide them easy UX,
978
01:09:22.275 --> 01:09:33.949
with with that same cryptographic guarantees, which is what signal attempts to do. Now is there a trust model there? Yes. Have we discussed the trust model last episode? Yes. So I don't wanna really discuss the trust model that much.
979
01:09:34.285 --> 01:09:39.344
Sure. We are trusting signal. We are trusting the app stores that provide you the package.
980
01:09:39.645 --> 01:09:41.344
I wanna talk about a bigger,
981
01:09:43.210 --> 01:09:45.070
you know, a bigger macro issue
982
01:09:45.370 --> 01:09:48.590
with the idea of encrypted messengers, which is this idea that,
983
01:09:49.125 --> 01:09:52.664
and we we saw an article come out today, I think, in TechCrunch.
984
01:09:53.605 --> 01:09:59.250
New York Times did a a FUD piece on it. Alex Gladstein did the opposite in Time Magazine.
985
01:10:00.590 --> 01:10:01.810
This idea that
986
01:10:02.670 --> 01:10:05.010
a user of signal, that signal can't
987
01:10:05.695 --> 01:10:13.475
police their users, they don't know what their users are doing, they don't know who their users are, so they can't stop criminals from using signal.
988
01:10:14.120 --> 01:10:31.685
And and and we're gonna see this argument pop its head up more and more. We saw it in encryption wars that basically have never ended and continue to this day. The previous attorney general for the United States was was just talking about trying to end around encryption. They they talk about it like they're not trying to ban encryption, but as soon as you try and add backdoors,
989
01:10:32.010 --> 01:10:34.170
try and add this visibility, you're doing it.
990
01:10:36.730 --> 01:10:38.110
You know, where
991
01:10:39.185 --> 01:10:40.885
I I I I think an interesting,
992
01:10:41.265 --> 01:10:42.885
interesting metaphor here
993
01:10:43.345 --> 01:10:43.845
is
994
01:10:45.025 --> 01:10:45.845
is cars.
995
01:10:46.540 --> 01:10:48.880
I I don't know. People might think I'm crazy.
996
01:10:49.580 --> 01:10:50.080
Vehicles.
997
01:10:50.780 --> 01:10:55.625
We are driving these 2 ton vehicles, 1 ton vehicles down the road, and people are
998
01:11:05.220 --> 01:11:11.000
for a crime or not. But we don't tell people that they can't use cars, that they're, like, cars cannot be sold.
999
01:11:11.700 --> 01:11:21.915
We trust them that they're gonna use that car in good faith. And if they don't, then we go at them, you know, through basic police work, good old fashioned police work and and, you know, legal repercussions.
1000
01:11:23.280 --> 01:11:27.460
I don't see a difference there with encryption, but I know that lawmakers do. So so
1001
01:11:27.920 --> 01:11:28.580
I'm curious,
1002
01:11:29.495 --> 01:11:34.875
you know, do do you guys think we're gonna see more of this? We're gonna see, like, terrorists use encryption, terrorists use Bitcoin,
1003
01:11:35.895 --> 01:11:36.555
you know,
1004
01:11:37.660 --> 01:11:38.960
what is your best argument
1005
01:11:39.420 --> 01:11:40.160
for why
1006
01:11:40.620 --> 01:11:44.730
something like signals should be protected? Why why people should be able to have
1007
01:11:45.875 --> 01:11:50.695
encrypted end to end speech where where the provider doesn't know what's going on. They have no idea.
1008
01:11:53.370 --> 01:11:58.270
1009
01:12:02.545 --> 01:12:03.045
You
1010
01:12:04.385 --> 01:12:04.885
know?
1011
01:12:05.185 --> 01:12:05.685
1012
01:12:06.625 --> 01:12:09.445
Even the guys that are running these spy agencies,
1013
01:12:09.745 --> 01:12:11.605
right, they still have
1014
01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:13.150
lines on their windows.
1015
01:12:13.850 --> 01:12:16.199
Do they do they have anything to hide?
1016
01:12:18.985 --> 01:12:21.165
1017
01:12:21.945 --> 01:12:27.725
you know, like, I don't think I think a regulator is gonna laugh at my car's argue if you know, metaphor. I I think,
1018
01:12:28.770 --> 01:12:35.350
we have Rad Vladdy in the comments saying, what about the shoe companies? I mean, every terrorist probably wore sneakers. I mean, some probably wore boots.
1019
01:12:37.075 --> 01:12:39.335
1020
01:12:39.635 --> 01:12:43.735
1021
01:12:44.180 --> 01:12:48.120
I don't think that's a effective argument, you know. My my co
1022
01:12:48.500 --> 01:12:56.975
host, Tales from the Crypt, Marty Bent, you know, he he constantly hits me with the, do we live in a free country? Do we do this, or do we do not? Do we do that?
1023
01:12:57.355 --> 01:13:00.415
And and to me, these arguments always come down to that scorpion
1024
01:13:01.389 --> 01:13:02.130
that scorpion,
1025
01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:03.650
frog metaphor.
1026
01:13:04.190 --> 01:13:28.670
Where, like, the frog is bringing the scorpion across the water, the scorpion pros promises him he's not gonna sting him, and the frog's, like, well, if he stings me, then it hurts both of us. And then it stings him anyway. Right? And that's the same idea with encryption. Like, if if we make it hard for honest Americans, honest law abiding citizens, I'm not gonna keep this America focused because open arms isn't America, you know, just an average law abiding citizen can't protect their own privacy.
1027
01:13:29.775 --> 01:13:33.155
We are dooming this country. We we are hurting our own citizens.
1028
01:13:33.935 --> 01:13:41.400
I don't think they care. And I think that's where open source comes in. I think the idea of open source is that if we have like a signal,
1029
01:13:43.060 --> 01:13:44.119
that gets banned,
1030
01:13:44.420 --> 01:13:49.735
like, at least you can still use PGP. Right? At least you can still use some random open source APK.
1031
01:13:52.355 --> 01:13:57.255
1032
01:13:57.940 --> 01:13:59.159
Economically, right?
1033
01:13:59.460 --> 01:14:05.080
Like, yeah. Sure. These things like, you know, shoes and cars and planes
1034
01:14:05.780 --> 01:14:07.159
and guns and
1035
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:18.920
encryption can all be used for bad things. But, you know, if you were to somehow be able to wave a magic wand and make them go away, we're all gonna be poor off for it because the economic
1036
01:14:19.700 --> 01:14:20.200
possibilities
1037
01:14:21.060 --> 01:14:28.485
are reduced so much. I mean, think about it. Like, encryption is not just used for our private signal messages or for Bitcoin transactions.
1038
01:14:29.344 --> 01:14:35.820
They're used, when we log into our bank accounts, when we make our transactions with our credit cards on Amazon,
1039
01:14:38.920 --> 01:14:44.594
everywhere when we will sign into our systems for work. Like, if you get rid of encryption, like, these things are, like,
1040
01:14:45.054 --> 01:14:46.594
could hardly function anymore.
1041
01:14:47.135 --> 01:14:48.275
And then furthermore,
1042
01:14:48.815 --> 01:14:50.994
like, my other argument would be like the practicality.
1043
01:14:51.375 --> 01:14:55.060
You can't, and that by and large because of open source
1044
01:14:55.520 --> 01:15:00.660
and because of, you know, the computing revolution and the accessibility that we have with all these processors
1045
01:15:01.425 --> 01:15:04.005
to to whip stuff up, and you use
1046
01:15:04.545 --> 01:15:06.005
math to, you know,
1047
01:15:06.545 --> 01:15:10.645
verify our software downloads or send encrypted messages or use Bitcoin.
1048
01:15:11.170 --> 01:15:22.145
You know? Like, at the end of the day, you're not gonna be able to ban it one way or the other. Right? Like, okay. Maybe the US government puts the clamp down and, you know, you can't use GitHub anymore
1049
01:15:22.765 --> 01:15:27.265
or, you know, they put pressure on the ISPs to start censoring stuff.
1050
01:15:28.410 --> 01:15:30.110
We're gonna route around that shit.
1051
01:15:30.730 --> 01:15:36.750
The Internet was built to route around all of this bullshit, and these centralized hubs that can be censored
1052
01:15:37.095 --> 01:15:38.795
are anomalies in the whole system.
1053
01:15:39.975 --> 01:15:41.035
And, you
1054
01:15:41.655 --> 01:15:48.050
know, you can write whatever piece of bill legislation which with whatever threat of violence or imprisonment behind
1055
01:15:49.390 --> 01:15:58.324
it. But the toothpaste is out of the tube. You can't stop this anymore. So why waste our valuable time, right, which is really the most scarce thing we have
1056
01:15:58.784 --> 01:16:01.685
debating this? It's over. It's over the debate
1057
01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:04.580
Because if someone really wants to use this tech,
1058
01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:06.659
they're gonna be able to now.
1059
01:16:10.655 --> 01:16:16.034
1060
01:16:16.735 --> 01:16:20.350
which is getting more apparent that they can stop you to move physically.
1061
01:16:20.730 --> 01:16:22.830
But, you know, in the
1062
01:16:24.180 --> 01:16:24.680
well,
1063
01:16:26.085 --> 01:16:32.985
it it and also it's always a fight. I mean, you know, it's it's it's not over because they're trying always to push back and then,
1064
01:16:33.525 --> 01:16:34.730
you know, you need to
1065
01:16:35.050 --> 01:16:40.350
find new ways to route around like, you know, ISPs are centralized so you need mesh networks or you need satellites
1066
01:16:40.890 --> 01:16:41.390
or,
1067
01:16:42.055 --> 01:16:47.275
you know, your hardware manufacturers manufacturers are compromised. So you need open source hardware. You need to
1068
01:16:47.575 --> 01:16:48.235
be able
1069
01:16:48.855 --> 01:16:52.200
to make your hardware at home at some point. You know? Grow it out of
1070
01:16:53.340 --> 01:16:53.840
1071
01:16:54.980 --> 01:17:03.155
Yeah. And and I I think if, like, you think it's possible for this monolithic entity in in the form of the state to be able to find a way to clamp down on this stuff,
1072
01:17:03.695 --> 01:17:06.595
then that's, like, an inherently pessimistic view against
1073
01:17:06.920 --> 01:17:08.860
humanity because I think that
1074
01:17:09.400 --> 01:17:09.900
individuals
1075
01:17:10.360 --> 01:17:10.860
and
1076
01:17:11.320 --> 01:17:12.060
their ingenuity
1077
01:17:12.520 --> 01:17:14.620
is is unmatched. You know?
1078
01:17:15.160 --> 01:17:15.660
Whatever
1079
01:17:16.534 --> 01:17:20.235
arbitrary thing something someone dictates from the state, like,
1080
01:17:21.014 --> 01:17:30.470
some new form you're gonna incentivize someone or a group of people to work on something to to work around it, and someone's gonna come up with a new solution
1081
01:17:31.250 --> 01:17:32.950
to route around your arbitrary
1082
01:17:34.615 --> 01:17:35.835
dictate. So,
1083
01:17:37.255 --> 01:17:37.915
you know,
1084
01:17:38.535 --> 01:17:42.555
1085
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:47.620
by your speech. I,
1086
01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:52.580
yeah. Look. I mean, I 100% agree. I I think the cat's out of the I like the toothpaste
1087
01:17:53.345 --> 01:18:10.775
out of the tube. That just sounds you know, like, cats shouldn't be in bags. So when the cat's out of the bag, like, I'm proud of the cat. Cat back into a bag, but You are walking into the bathroom, and the the toothpaste is outside of the tube. Like, what the fuck's going on? I don't know. Yes. This is it's no good. It seems disturbing to me.
1088
01:18:11.335 --> 01:18:17.860
But, yeah, I I I do think, like, when you talk about tools that empower individuals that that help,
1089
01:18:19.140 --> 01:18:21.240
strengthen individuals and and
1090
01:18:21.700 --> 01:18:22.200
create
1091
01:18:22.580 --> 01:18:23.080
empowerment,
1092
01:18:24.135 --> 01:18:27.675
to argue against them becomes immediately obvious. Like, one side,
1093
01:18:28.855 --> 01:18:31.435
wants free choice, wants people to have the option,
1094
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:40.260
and and the other side is just straight up going for bans. And it's a very weird dichotomy, and I think it becomes very obvious to the average individual,
1095
01:18:41.054 --> 01:18:43.954
when presented those two situations. Like, you can have,
1096
01:18:45.215 --> 01:18:47.474
by all means, someone can argue the efficacy
1097
01:18:47.775 --> 01:18:48.275
of
1098
01:18:48.679 --> 01:18:58.195
of of our lifeboats and whether or not our lifeboats will hold water and and and protect us. But to to tell us that that lifeboat usage should be banned completely,
1099
01:18:59.375 --> 01:19:01.555
from a sinking ship is, like, absolute,
1100
01:19:02.550 --> 01:19:06.010
you know, ridiculousness. And I I think most people see through that.
1101
01:19:06.870 --> 01:19:22.660
I'll tell you one thing. The criminals definitely see through it. The criminals are gonna use all this shit no matter what. So any any kind of restrictions you put in on an individual empowering tools, you're just hurting that that average law abiding person who doesn't wanna doesn't want to ruffle any feathers.
1102
01:19:23.040 --> 01:19:23.540
Yep.
1103
01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:29.615
1104
01:19:29.935 --> 01:19:35.475
are, like, ban is on does only work on good people. Bad people don't care about this.
1105
01:19:35.775 --> 01:19:37.295
So it is inherently
1106
01:19:39.210 --> 01:19:40.750
doesn't serve its purpose.
1107
01:19:42.650 --> 01:19:43.150
1108
01:19:43.690 --> 01:19:45.150
And at this point, like,
1109
01:19:45.770 --> 01:19:48.910
come on. Are you gonna honestly tell me that the the
1110
01:19:49.435 --> 01:19:49.935
malicious
1111
01:19:50.395 --> 01:19:56.960
uses of it outweigh, like, the legitimate uses of numbers? Like, no way. Whether it comes to encrypted messaging
1112
01:19:57.740 --> 01:19:58.240
or,
1113
01:19:59.580 --> 01:20:04.755
Bitcoin, like, that's definitely not the case. We're by and large using it for legal things.
1114
01:20:06.275 --> 01:20:09.815
1115
01:20:12.040 --> 01:20:15.340
A big pain point that we've seen in our daily lives is
1116
01:20:16.040 --> 01:20:17.820
most people's main computer
1117
01:20:18.520 --> 01:20:19.980
is their phone,
1118
01:20:20.325 --> 01:20:25.865
and their phone is usually either operated by a Google operating system or an Apple operating system,
1119
01:20:26.725 --> 01:20:28.425
who they have to trust wholeheartedly,
1120
01:20:30.130 --> 01:20:32.390
with both their privacy and their security.
1121
01:20:33.250 --> 01:20:35.830
There's a ton of closed source blobs in there.
1122
01:20:37.315 --> 01:20:39.495
Yep. What's really cool is
1123
01:20:41.315 --> 01:20:43.415
what's called my eye recently is GrapheneOS,
1124
01:20:43.795 --> 01:20:48.120
which allows you to install a d Google version of Android that's privacy focused
1125
01:20:48.900 --> 01:20:51.320
on, ironically enough, Google hardware,
1126
01:20:51.699 --> 01:20:56.335
which is more open hardware that has secure element in it, so that's why they target
1127
01:20:56.715 --> 01:20:59.935
it, ironically enough. But, ultimately, what we wanna see is open hardware.
1128
01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:02.340
Before we get to the open hardware
1129
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:05.380
conversation, I just wanted to mention real quickly here
1130
01:21:05.920 --> 01:21:12.495
that Graphene has two things that I think are really game changing in terms of open software. I mean, I have a guide on tftc.tv
1131
01:21:13.195 --> 01:21:19.670
on how to install it, and I recommend people do. It's easier and more accessible than they think it is. But my guide is about to be obsolete.
1132
01:21:20.770 --> 01:21:21.590
They have
1133
01:21:22.130 --> 01:21:23.910
a Chromium based version
1134
01:21:24.530 --> 01:21:27.110
of the installer, so you don't need fast boot.
1135
01:21:28.034 --> 01:21:32.855
And you can just do it all from a browser. And, actually, you can do it from another Graphene phone,
1136
01:21:34.330 --> 01:21:42.625
which is a game changer. If you just have a USB c cable, you can install Graphene on a Pixel from another Pixel that has Graphene on it. No computer necessary.
1137
01:21:43.005 --> 01:21:47.105
They also have this verification method where you can verify instead of PGP signatures,
1138
01:21:47.485 --> 01:22:02.824
you can verify with a QR code from another Android phone. It doesn't actually even have to be a Graphene phone. So you can you can have a second source of truth from another Android phone, ideally a Graphene phone, but it doesn't have to be a Graphene phone. Those two things combined, I think, are really cool ideas
1139
01:22:03.205 --> 01:22:05.625
in terms of trying to make open source software,
1140
01:22:06.165 --> 01:22:08.665
specifically, provable and verifiable software,
1141
01:22:10.110 --> 01:22:13.170
more accessible for the average user. So I'd like to see more of that.
1142
01:22:14.750 --> 01:22:16.850
I know both of you guys are are pretty bullish
1143
01:22:17.215 --> 01:22:25.955
Graphene. 6102 is asking us Calyxt OS versus Graphene versus Copperhead. Do you guys have any opinions here? Yeah. I'm running I'm running Calyxt
1144
01:22:26.440 --> 01:22:30.060
1145
01:22:30.760 --> 01:22:32.139
from actual Google
1146
01:22:32.600 --> 01:22:33.100
and
1147
01:22:34.265 --> 01:22:38.685
Graphene I have as well, but I didn't it didn't manage to stick because
1148
01:22:39.145 --> 01:22:45.630
for to to sometimes literally navigate in the field life, you know, I I I need the I need the Google services,
1149
01:22:46.010 --> 01:22:46.910
which is available
1150
01:22:47.290 --> 01:22:52.110
in Calix OS in the form of an open source alternative, which is called Micro g.
1151
01:22:52.535 --> 01:22:55.035
So you can have your notifications. You can have your,
1152
01:22:55.895 --> 01:23:05.090
all the apps which are which would be dependent on those kind of things. And still the information which is shared to Google, if necessary, it's it's controlled
1153
01:23:05.630 --> 01:23:07.465
and stripped to the absolute minimum,
1154
01:23:08.085 --> 01:23:11.545
and you can stop it and control it from by
1155
01:23:11.925 --> 01:23:12.905
app by app
1156
01:23:13.205 --> 01:23:15.385
and see what is being being shared.
1157
01:23:16.869 --> 01:23:18.250
Also, I mean,
1158
01:23:19.190 --> 01:23:22.250
the main reason for these all these o s is to use
1159
01:23:23.185 --> 01:23:23.685
pixels
1160
01:23:24.065 --> 01:23:26.405
to start with because the boot boot loader
1161
01:23:27.025 --> 01:23:33.219
that's the main phone kind of brand, which does allow allow the bootloader to be relocked.
1162
01:23:33.600 --> 01:23:37.940
Mhmm. Other otherwise, you can install open source Android without Google called,
1163
01:23:38.800 --> 01:23:53.030
now it's called Lineage OS or AOS p Android on basically any Android phone. But you cannot reload the bootloader because those most of the phones don't allow us. There is, like, an exception which is called the the it's in Chinese
1164
01:23:53.570 --> 01:23:54.390
called Xiaomi
1165
01:23:54.770 --> 01:23:59.605
a a 5 m m 2, which is an old phone. It costs, like, less than a 100 USD.
1166
01:24:00.225 --> 01:24:01.285
You can only
1167
01:24:02.065 --> 01:24:13.530
probably I mean, you should you should be able to buy it new as well. That's might be 200, but it's it's, you know, there's a huge used market. So it's it's like, you know, it's very cheap thing to have. And then
1168
01:24:14.205 --> 01:24:19.485
it it is like more tricky to put the Calix OS on it, but, that that's what I was I was,
1169
01:24:19.885 --> 01:24:23.105
playing with and it's it's working great. Right. And also
1170
01:24:23.850 --> 01:24:25.710
1171
01:24:26.090 --> 01:24:39.455
1172
01:24:40.155 --> 01:24:41.135
to their laptop,
1173
01:24:41.915 --> 01:24:42.415
cannot
1174
01:24:42.780 --> 01:24:43.280
open
1175
01:24:44.380 --> 01:24:45.680
the inside. So it doesn't,
1176
01:24:46.140 --> 01:24:55.225
it's not not not able to read the contents of the of the of the phone, which is just a minimum security. So what you do when you when, you know, someone
1177
01:24:55.925 --> 01:24:56.425
would,
1178
01:24:57.800 --> 01:25:10.645
well, let's assume not steal, but find a phone, you know, and there is no way to return it to the to the previous owner, but you either take it to the to the police station, which I wouldn't. But you would you you would you would want to use it or sell it then,
1179
01:25:11.344 --> 01:25:13.364
there is no other way just to reset it.
1180
01:25:13.930 --> 01:25:15.870
Except if the bootloader is unlocked
1181
01:25:16.330 --> 01:25:16.830
or
1182
01:25:17.210 --> 01:25:18.350
broken or whatever,
1183
01:25:19.449 --> 01:25:21.665
where it rooted, that's the Android lingo.
1184
01:25:22.065 --> 01:25:24.565
The g r broken is the is the iOS lingo. Right?
1185
01:25:24.865 --> 01:25:27.205
Yeah. So the phone is rooted and the the,
1186
01:25:27.665 --> 01:25:30.165
bootloader is open, then without
1187
01:25:30.580 --> 01:25:33.239
resetting the phone, you can change the the,
1188
01:25:34.340 --> 01:25:36.600
software on it. And with that, you can
1189
01:25:38.715 --> 01:25:45.535
access all the data on it. So anything which is not encrypted then with a different key is open to the
1190
01:25:46.060 --> 01:25:50.320
to the prime guys, whether it be a banking application, your notes, your contacts, or
1191
01:25:50.700 --> 01:25:54.720
1192
01:25:55.855 --> 01:25:57.155
1193
01:25:57.534 --> 01:26:11.390
1194
01:26:12.205 --> 01:26:19.025
if they they can end around your PIN or whatever kind of password you have on there. Now if if you actually have it encrypted,
1195
01:26:19.325 --> 01:26:23.710
then they're you're still protected. They have to brute force your encryption password,
1196
01:26:24.330 --> 01:26:34.155
but, presumably, they can brute it easier if your bootloader is not locked. So ideally, in terms of physical security on your phone, you want your bootloader to be locked with both Kallix.
1197
01:26:34.775 --> 01:26:41.159
With all 3 of the of the questions, Kallix, Graphene, and Copperhead, you can lock your bootloader if you use
1198
01:26:41.699 --> 01:26:43.480
Pixel phones. I think,
1199
01:26:43.860 --> 01:26:45.960
what Open Arms is saying is there's a random
1200
01:26:46.805 --> 01:26:48.245
yao Xiaomi phone,
1201
01:26:49.045 --> 01:26:54.585
She only phone. You know, the phone. Yeah. X I a m o. Yeah. I don't know how to pronounce their hardware.
1202
01:26:54.940 --> 01:26:57.520
That that allows you to lock the bootloader, but, of course,
1203
01:26:58.380 --> 01:27:01.680
then you're just exchanging, you know, Chinese backdoored hardware,
1204
01:27:02.220 --> 01:27:06.844
for US backdoored hardware. Because I'm the opposite. What? It's all made in China.
1205
01:27:07.145 --> 01:27:12.445
Alright. Everything's made well, not Samsung makes a lot of their shit in Vietnam. I don't know. Really? Interesting.
1206
01:27:13.065 --> 01:27:13.965
Does that help?
1207
01:27:14.620 --> 01:27:15.120
But,
1208
01:27:15.739 --> 01:27:22.160
yeah. So so Kallax is interesting to me. I think the main thing that's interesting that people don't realize is that eSIMs are allowed.
1209
01:27:23.295 --> 01:27:26.835
Yeah. And and we highlighted a freak run business, silent.link,
1210
01:27:27.295 --> 01:27:34.659
last last week, and I guess we're highlighting it again this week, that allows you to buy an eSIM with be Bitcoin with no KYC.
1211
01:27:34.960 --> 01:27:43.795
It's all out of stock there. Yeah. Which is dope. I I spoke to our boy, Khitan, who did it on Calyx, said it works fantastic. Now he has a British number.
1212
01:27:45.800 --> 01:27:46.280
And,
1213
01:27:46.680 --> 01:27:49.660
yeah. So you can't do that with Graphene. So that's the major benefit.
1214
01:27:50.680 --> 01:28:01.565
Obviously, the second major benefit is is is that you have Google services, but, you know, someone who uses Graphene would say that's a feature, not a bug. So, basically, if you wanna go super hardcore, use Graphene. If you don't,
1215
01:28:02.030 --> 01:28:02.850
use Kallix.
1216
01:28:03.390 --> 01:28:03.890
Copperhead
1217
01:28:04.270 --> 01:28:05.550
was like a fight with,
1218
01:28:06.910 --> 01:28:10.290
with the graph the the founders of Graphene,
1219
01:28:11.205 --> 01:28:11.865
it was
1220
01:28:12.325 --> 01:28:17.145
called Android hardened hardened Android, something to that effect, and they they got into an argument,
1221
01:28:17.765 --> 01:28:23.000
and they split up. So Copperhead is the for profit project, and Graphene is the free open source,
1222
01:28:23.700 --> 01:28:24.200
version.
1223
01:28:24.980 --> 01:28:29.000
So Copperhead, you have to actually buy the phone with Copperhead already on,
1224
01:28:29.505 --> 01:28:32.885
and there's some DRM elements to it. So I Yeah.
1225
01:28:33.185 --> 01:28:40.160
Am am strictly either Graphene or Calix, currently running Graphene. Consider either. They're both major improvements over,
1226
01:28:42.060 --> 01:28:48.594
just running like a stock Android or Apple phone. But, ultimately, what we want to see is open hardware. So let's get to open hardware.
1227
01:28:49.614 --> 01:28:56.250
1228
01:28:57.989 --> 01:28:58.830
1229
01:28:59.270 --> 01:29:01.850
no. Get a pick get a cheap Pixel and install
1230
01:29:02.185 --> 01:29:06.525
install Graphene or Kallax on it. There we go. On on
1231
01:29:07.065 --> 01:29:09.885
on an iPhone, you can't even install an application
1232
01:29:10.185 --> 01:29:11.565
separate from the App Store.
1233
01:29:12.800 --> 01:29:16.020
So when they decided, like, I I would never use Parler,
1234
01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:20.980
but when they decided that Parler wasn't allowed for iPhone users, you couldn't use it anymore.
1235
01:29:21.375 --> 01:29:25.554
At least even if you even if you use, like, completely Google, Android,
1236
01:29:26.175 --> 01:29:27.315
and you're just completely,
1237
01:29:28.735 --> 01:29:45.480
letting Google spy on whatever you want to let them spy on, whatever they wanna spy on, and you're just trusting them a 100%, they let you install Parler APK separate. Right? They let you when we had Bitcoin wallets banned on iPhone, you just couldn't install a Bitcoin wallet. Like, tomorrow, iPhone, Apple could tell you no.
1238
01:29:46.040 --> 01:29:50.300
1239
01:29:51.400 --> 01:29:51.900
if
1240
01:29:52.440 --> 01:29:53.980
Apple chooses to
1241
01:29:54.405 --> 01:30:04.179
delete the app from their App Store, it will also delete the app from your phone, which is some real George Orwell 1984 shit. There is a setting to turn that off,
1242
01:30:04.719 --> 01:30:10.579
but by default, it is on. So if you guys are using any apps you think might get banned, I don't know, maybe Telegram,
1243
01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:14.965
they're trying to target that pretty heavily, you might wanna turn that setting off.
1244
01:30:16.545 --> 01:30:21.880
1245
01:30:22.980 --> 01:30:32.875
1246
01:30:35.575 --> 01:30:39.719
1247
01:30:40.199 --> 01:30:46.219
Is this is this me is this me petting unicorns again, or, like, is this something we can see
1248
01:30:46.520 --> 01:30:48.219
in reality anytime soon?
1249
01:30:49.145 --> 01:30:51.325
1250
01:30:51.865 --> 01:30:53.085
I think I hope we
1251
01:30:53.385 --> 01:30:59.660
we approach it and then more products come out. Not Nam's just showing us one before the show. Nam, do you wanna talk about that one?
1252
01:31:00.120 --> 01:31:02.140
1253
01:31:02.815 --> 01:31:03.315
yeah,
1254
01:31:03.775 --> 01:31:09.315
advertised on on or I've came across it on on Twitter. It's called a bigger board, which is,
1255
01:31:10.014 --> 01:31:11.554
basically, there is so
1256
01:31:12.250 --> 01:31:15.150
we have, like, Intel manufacturing CPUs. We have,
1257
01:31:15.850 --> 01:31:22.785
AMD manufacturing CPUs, and then now ARM is coming up a lot, which is like in older as replies and older phones as well.
1258
01:31:23.165 --> 01:31:25.345
And then there is like a 4th
1259
01:31:27.870 --> 01:31:29.810
reasonably popular CPU architecture
1260
01:31:30.830 --> 01:31:36.610
coming to life. So popular that Bitcoin Core has a build for it.
1261
01:31:37.055 --> 01:31:38.595
And it runs Linux,
1262
01:31:39.695 --> 01:31:44.595
which is the operating system you want to use if you want to have any kind of reliability or verifiability.
1263
01:31:46.900 --> 01:31:50.980
And it is called a big o big o 5 or big o v, I think. It's probably
1264
01:31:51.940 --> 01:31:53.400
yeah. Big o v.
1265
01:31:54.020 --> 01:31:55.480
Big o board dot org
1266
01:31:57.635 --> 01:32:04.454
slashbigov is the is the website. You can register interest. Basically, it's a low cost board, which is, based on this open
1267
01:32:05.200 --> 01:32:10.500
architecture open CPU architecture called RISC 5 or RISC v. I'm not I'm not even sure.
1268
01:32:11.360 --> 01:32:13.780
And it will be in the ballpark of
1269
01:32:14.514 --> 01:32:15.014
100
1270
01:32:15.875 --> 01:32:17.974
USD. It has 4 gigabytes of RAM
1271
01:32:18.835 --> 01:32:19.494
and 2
1272
01:32:19.795 --> 01:32:27.080
2 cores of 1 gigahertz pro processor, which means that you can actually run Linux on it.
1273
01:32:28.020 --> 01:32:29.160
I think it would be,
1274
01:32:29.700 --> 01:32:32.520
like, comparable to, like, a Raspberry Pi 3, probably.
1275
01:32:34.094 --> 01:32:42.035
Certainly, we'd be able to well, not certainly, but but I I strongly hope that it will be able to run at least Bisco and Core. If you're lucky, it
1276
01:32:42.490 --> 01:32:44.750
could take, like, c lightning as well.
1277
01:32:45.050 --> 01:32:49.150
And, you know, looking forward to try it because this is the first accessible price
1278
01:32:49.610 --> 01:32:52.095
board which is based on this kind of
1279
01:32:52.575 --> 01:32:53.075
architecture,
1280
01:32:53.615 --> 01:32:54.435
which is which
1281
01:32:54.895 --> 01:32:57.315
is much more verifiable than than any other
1282
01:32:58.575 --> 01:33:02.310
chip manufacturers or first architecture users.
1283
01:33:04.770 --> 01:33:09.805
Yeah. That's a big thing, I think. But, it will take a couple of months to come
1284
01:33:10.305 --> 01:33:10.805
into
1285
01:33:11.305 --> 01:33:13.245
reality. It will be the 1st batches
1286
01:33:13.625 --> 01:33:17.885
will be coming in April, and then widely available from September.
1287
01:33:19.130 --> 01:33:20.510
Did did we have the link yet?
1288
01:33:21.050 --> 01:33:27.550
Because it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's up. It's up. So, yeah, check it out to register interest. You need to fill out a Google form.
1289
01:33:28.034 --> 01:33:32.215
They are not accepting Bitcoin, but it is proper open source hardware.
1290
01:33:33.074 --> 01:33:34.135
1291
01:33:36.040 --> 01:33:40.060
Nice. And and we got the link about how to prevent apps from being deleted,
1292
01:33:40.600 --> 01:33:46.385
in the chat. I mean, from iPhone and iPad in the chat. I also tweeted it if anyone's interested in that.
1293
01:33:46.764 --> 01:33:50.784
But, yeah, the b cord looks sick. I think I'm gonna put in an order for that.
1294
01:33:51.710 --> 01:33:57.250
You know, it's definitely a step up from the ARM chips that we have on, let's say, the Raspberry
1295
01:33:57.950 --> 01:33:59.890
Pi and, the ROC 64.
1296
01:34:00.865 --> 01:34:08.085
You know, it's just, like, good to have a chip architecture that that's open. It's it's not completely foolproof, you know, that there there's,
1297
01:34:09.820 --> 01:34:14.719
you know, places where, you know, bad stuff could lie, but having the architect
1298
01:34:15.179 --> 01:34:20.955
architecture of the chip itself be open is is incredible. And, you know, we don't really have another equivalent for that,
1299
01:34:21.335 --> 01:34:24.955
other than the open power systems, but those are, like, fully fledged
1300
01:34:25.820 --> 01:34:29.120
computers, and they're very expensive. They're so expensive.
1301
01:34:29.820 --> 01:34:33.840
Yeah. And, you know, it's really hard to get things running on there too.
1302
01:34:34.665 --> 01:34:35.165
And,
1303
01:34:35.704 --> 01:34:39.485
you know, it's just not on a single board computer like this thing is. So this is, like,
1304
01:34:40.105 --> 01:34:49.780
a really encouraging sign, that things are going in the right direction, and hopefully, we see more products like this as time goes on. I mean, so do you guys think like, do you think, like, realistically
1305
01:34:50.160 --> 01:34:53.815
1306
01:34:54.355 --> 01:34:56.855
the proliferation of them is a risk to the network?
1307
01:34:57.554 --> 01:34:59.175
Or is this a purely,
1308
01:35:02.460 --> 01:35:05.900
you know, I I I feel like in our threat models, we tend to go a little bit
1309
01:35:06.380 --> 01:35:13.175
and we should. We should be adversarial about it, But is it really a practical issue for most people? Is it a practical issue for Bitcoiners?
1310
01:35:13.795 --> 01:35:19.650
1311
01:35:20.190 --> 01:35:24.990
long term. I think it'd be, like, a really bad day for us, but I I think we would,
1312
01:35:25.710 --> 01:35:26.930
ride around that issue.
1313
01:35:27.315 --> 01:35:29.815
So it's, like, you know, calls into question whether
1314
01:35:30.675 --> 01:35:33.635
it'd be even worse trying to coordinate an attack like this. It would,
1315
01:35:34.440 --> 01:35:38.139
know, it would be quite costly to to figure out how to execute it
1316
01:35:38.679 --> 01:35:42.205
and and get it done, and then at what cost, you know, like, points
1317
01:35:43.625 --> 01:35:47.485
the wrong chain for a little bit. You know, it'd have to be, like, part of some
1318
01:35:47.865 --> 01:35:51.325
crazy scheme hitting one entity or but,
1319
01:35:53.100 --> 01:35:58.880
yeah, long term, I don't I don't really think it's that big an issue. It's something to be mindful of and definitely something
1320
01:35:59.985 --> 01:36:03.605
to to consider as as these new products are coming on the market.
1321
01:36:04.545 --> 01:36:13.050
1322
01:36:14.550 --> 01:36:16.969
But it's an individual risk. So
1323
01:36:17.335 --> 01:36:17.835
don't
1324
01:36:18.295 --> 01:36:19.594
use a Raspberry
1325
01:36:21.014 --> 01:36:34.265
Pi for instead of a hardware wallet. Right? Because it that is not it is not not verifiable and it needs, especially so out of all the single board computers, the Raspberry Pi is
1326
01:36:35.225 --> 01:36:38.925
slightly worse because it needs a a binary blob
1327
01:36:41.305 --> 01:36:42.445
flashed onto
1328
01:36:43.390 --> 01:36:50.210
the SD card or well, it's it's mostly or even the SSD that's boost from that to be able to work, which
1329
01:36:50.935 --> 01:36:54.955
which runs an underlying operating system like the BIOS or UEFI
1330
01:36:55.574 --> 01:36:57.675
UEFI on the Intel machines
1331
01:36:58.870 --> 01:37:00.970
and which can even
1332
01:37:02.150 --> 01:37:06.730
tell or simulate things for the Linux running on top. So
1333
01:37:07.825 --> 01:37:08.325
if
1334
01:37:09.185 --> 01:37:09.685
someone
1335
01:37:10.225 --> 01:37:27.545
highly technically able takes a machine like this to a lab, then they would be definitely able to extract any kind of thing stored on it, run on it, or, you know, it's it's not a secured environment to that extent. Like, you cannot compare it to a cold card, for example. Right? Or,
1336
01:37:28.245 --> 01:37:29.625
even if it's air gapped.
1337
01:37:31.445 --> 01:37:40.960
1338
01:37:41.635 --> 01:37:45.895
1339
01:37:46.515 --> 01:38:00.409
with a friend of mine who we manufacture these these metal boxes for RespBlitz. But we do do a box for the quote card which is there will be there to house the quote card attached to the Raspberry Pi running a full node
1340
01:38:00.855 --> 01:38:02.395
and you just delegate
1341
01:38:02.775 --> 01:38:03.755
the signing
1342
01:38:04.135 --> 01:38:14.630
and the key storage to the actual quote card in well, not air gap, but in a in a well separated fashion and also running c k bunker, which you might be
1343
01:38:14.930 --> 01:38:16.390
might be aware of,
1344
01:38:18.155 --> 01:38:19.295
which is basically
1345
01:38:20.074 --> 01:38:20.735
the codecard
1346
01:38:21.195 --> 01:38:27.054
make 3 in a HSM mode, in a hardware security module mode, where you can just throw it on,
1347
01:38:27.520 --> 01:38:29.460
throw a PSVT on it and
1348
01:38:29.760 --> 01:38:32.260
give it predefined rules or verify
1349
01:38:32.640 --> 01:38:34.740
on the fly by pressing buttons,
1350
01:38:35.680 --> 01:38:36.500
to sign
1351
01:38:37.155 --> 01:38:39.655
the transaction, the pre signed Bitcoin transaction
1352
01:38:40.114 --> 01:38:43.094
on the hardware wallet on the code card,
1353
01:38:43.475 --> 01:38:45.975
instead of having it signed on the
1354
01:38:46.670 --> 01:38:47.410
on the,
1355
01:38:48.190 --> 01:38:53.650
Raspberry Pi Nord itself. So, you know, basically removing that trust issue
1356
01:38:54.030 --> 01:38:56.115
and placing it on the court card
1357
01:38:57.315 --> 01:38:59.235
in terms of, you know, in terms of,
1358
01:38:59.875 --> 01:39:00.855
risking funds
1359
01:39:01.395 --> 01:39:02.055
to that.
1360
01:39:03.770 --> 01:39:04.270
And
1361
01:39:05.530 --> 01:39:08.670
so and there are many softwares which will be,
1362
01:39:09.530 --> 01:39:10.429
able to
1363
01:39:10.835 --> 01:39:16.135
to so there's lots of development which is pointing to this direction that this can be realistically done
1364
01:39:16.835 --> 01:39:18.614
more and more easier, like LND
1365
01:39:19.155 --> 01:39:21.929
and like c lightning working with presigned
1366
01:39:22.310 --> 01:39:28.810
Bitcoin transactions and being able to delegate the signing outside from their hot wallets running.
1367
01:39:29.305 --> 01:39:30.045
And also,
1368
01:39:30.425 --> 01:39:33.405
join markets has a huge support in this.
1369
01:39:33.864 --> 01:39:38.205
I think the next major release will have things like, being able to pass
1370
01:39:39.110 --> 01:39:39.710
a pre,
1371
01:39:40.150 --> 01:39:41.370
constructed PSBT
1372
01:39:41.989 --> 01:39:45.050
to the Python script, which is a joint market, and
1373
01:39:46.105 --> 01:39:54.284
make it sign. And then the other way as well that it can construct the PSVT, which you can then sign externally so your keys won't be stored
1374
01:39:54.820 --> 01:39:56.599
inside the potentially,
1375
01:39:57.860 --> 01:39:59.320
backdoors or compromised
1376
01:40:00.260 --> 01:40:09.115
Raspberry Pi or other kind of Windows machine or whatever. But you can you can take it and you can air gap sign it if you want on a in a quote card, for example.
1377
01:40:11.690 --> 01:40:14.510
Yeah. So Yeah. You just you just need
1378
01:40:16.090 --> 01:40:20.430
to take these things where where where they belong. So you are not running production
1379
01:40:22.165 --> 01:40:22.665
environment
1380
01:40:23.125 --> 01:40:27.625
on a Raspberry Pi, and you are not making it widely available for the Internet either.
1381
01:40:28.570 --> 01:40:32.350
And that's not what that is not what's happening with these home node projects.
1382
01:40:33.530 --> 01:40:43.955
1383
01:40:45.340 --> 01:40:46.159
easy enough
1384
01:40:46.540 --> 01:40:48.239
to be to to be verified
1385
01:40:48.860 --> 01:40:49.360
Mhmm.
1386
01:40:49.739 --> 01:40:51.520
By advanced users at least.
1387
01:40:52.225 --> 01:40:57.525
You you wanna be in a situation where where it's provable and verifiable, the claims that are made.
1388
01:40:58.305 --> 01:40:59.365
We we have
1389
01:41:00.570 --> 01:41:03.070
a a freak in the comments that's going by some person.
1390
01:41:04.170 --> 01:41:06.330
Could be anyone. No one knows who it is.
1391
01:41:07.050 --> 01:41:11.225
Asking me because I've recommended in the past Michael Basel for privacy,
1392
01:41:11.685 --> 01:41:17.864
and and he says he prefers iPhones. Right? And and and this is where we go back to that same that same trade off balance,
1393
01:41:19.590 --> 01:41:22.090
where, like, iPhones might be a more
1394
01:41:22.710 --> 01:41:24.330
private option for 90%
1395
01:41:24.630 --> 01:41:25.290
of people,
1396
01:41:25.695 --> 01:41:31.555
but it's a custodial private option. You're you're there's custodial privacy. In Bitcoin, we like to talk about,
1397
01:41:32.575 --> 01:41:33.075
custodial
1398
01:41:34.870 --> 01:41:36.010
ownership of coins.
1399
01:41:36.630 --> 01:41:40.409
You also have custodial privacy where you're trusting an entity with your privacy.
1400
01:41:41.985 --> 01:41:51.045
Apple says they care about our privacy. They say they prioritize it. There's no way for us to prove it. There's no way for us to verify it. Even an advanced user can't do that.
1401
01:41:52.050 --> 01:41:54.869
So you you end up in a trusted relationship,
1402
01:41:55.889 --> 01:41:56.869
and that can help
1403
01:41:58.050 --> 01:42:06.585
maybe the average user increase their their situation. I mean, we see it with with ledger hardware wallets, if if you wanna talk about in the Bitcoin space. Mhmm.
1404
01:42:07.525 --> 01:42:22.755
Maybe that's, you know, better for for 90% of people, the overwhelming majority of people. But at the end of the day, if you really want a trust minimized option, you need to be able to prove it and verify it yourself or at least have an advanced user do that. So we wanna see we have software that you can do that with.
1405
01:42:23.535 --> 01:42:29.470
That's what the open source software movement is, and we don't have we don't really have hardware that you can do that with yet.
1406
01:42:30.090 --> 01:42:34.715
So, ideally, what we wanna see is hardware where you're able to do that. Short of that,
1407
01:42:35.275 --> 01:42:37.855
as OpenAM said, we do like to air gap things,
1408
01:42:38.875 --> 01:42:43.775
which is you just don't connect it to the Internet. So we had Randy McMillan in the comments mention routers.
1409
01:42:44.239 --> 01:42:45.860
Routers are a fucking mess.
1410
01:42:46.480 --> 01:42:46.980
1411
01:42:47.760 --> 01:43:04.670
1412
01:43:05.130 --> 01:43:08.910
And they provide you a router that can see all of your Internet traffic.
1413
01:43:09.645 --> 01:43:11.345
Everything you fucking do on the Internet.
1414
01:43:12.285 --> 01:43:17.585
So I mean, we can talk about, you know, trying to push for more open hardware in that respect. But, ultimately,
1415
01:43:18.010 --> 01:43:24.429
if you're talking about securing funds, securing information, you just keep it offline. You just don't put it online to begin with.
1416
01:43:25.505 --> 01:43:32.565
And that that's what cold storage the concept behind cold storage is all about. You can have, like, the most insecure setup, but if you never put it online,
1417
01:43:33.220 --> 01:43:41.000
at least that the malicious individual needs to come into your your your your home or your office or whatever and and have physical access
1418
01:43:41.435 --> 01:43:46.255
to to compromise you. We do not have that liberty with Lightning. I see someone mentioning it in here.
1419
01:43:46.715 --> 01:43:49.135
Lightning is, by default, is a hot wallet. Right?
1420
01:43:50.280 --> 01:43:51.340
1421
01:43:52.600 --> 01:43:57.340
a scale. Right? So there are, like, 6 different keys in a in an l in the
1422
01:43:59.695 --> 01:44:10.370
wallet, actually. And, I mean, the main two things the 2 main things. I mean, we can differentiate 3 at least very easily. That one key, which is completely different,
1423
01:44:11.070 --> 01:44:11.630
which is
1424
01:44:12.030 --> 01:44:16.985
controls the on chain wallet. You don't need to use that at all. You can fund
1425
01:44:17.525 --> 01:44:18.505
your lightning
1426
01:44:19.045 --> 01:44:23.945
channels from an outs from the outside, and it's very, very, very, very,
1427
01:44:24.560 --> 01:44:30.660
it's not difficult. It's quite easy, actually, but it's very important because you have full coin control and you don't get
1428
01:44:31.040 --> 01:44:35.775
into any any issues with the, you know, chain surveillance and
1429
01:44:36.955 --> 01:44:38.015
tracking the,
1430
01:44:38.555 --> 01:44:41.920
peeling chain, etcetera, which has been mentioned in the privacy article recently.
1431
01:44:43.420 --> 01:44:47.600
So those those are keys which you can already decouple and even air gap.
1432
01:44:48.219 --> 01:44:50.800
There are keys which are required to open and close channels.
1433
01:44:51.165 --> 01:44:53.264
Those are only needed occasionally.
1434
01:44:53.645 --> 01:44:55.585
So I mean if the software would,
1435
01:44:56.364 --> 01:44:58.145
support it and I'm sure it will
1436
01:44:58.800 --> 01:45:01.380
as it being developed, those can be
1437
01:45:02.160 --> 01:45:04.420
taken offline after they have been online.
1438
01:45:05.815 --> 01:45:08.554
But the keys which are actually signing the
1439
01:45:08.855 --> 01:45:15.440
transactions, if you are running a routing note, those needs to be hot because otherwise, you know, you wouldn't wouldn't be able to to go,
1440
01:45:16.060 --> 01:45:20.240
you wouldn't be able to forward payments. But they don't need to be able
1441
01:45:20.700 --> 01:45:25.335
to pay out. So there could be there are different permissions needed to
1442
01:45:26.035 --> 01:45:30.890
reduce your the balance on your note or to forward a payment which which only,
1443
01:45:31.530 --> 01:45:35.550
I mean, worst case, the balance stays the same but usually increases with the fees earned.
1444
01:45:37.905 --> 01:45:44.085
Yeah. That's that's that's too light in what I saw. There there could be, you know, plenty of developments there.
1445
01:45:44.784 --> 01:45:45.844
There will be.
1446
01:45:50.210 --> 01:45:55.350
1447
01:45:56.275 --> 01:46:10.500
try to try to have some sort of hybrid model wallet and and not have so many phones hot. So we'll see how that plays out. It's gonna be very interesting. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement there. Oh my god. So much fucking nuance. But, anyway, we're making progress. Right?
1448
01:46:11.635 --> 01:46:22.250
Yeah, man. It's it's like, you know, on Bitcoin, everything moves really slow. Right? And, you know, we we try not to break anything. And, lightning is the opposite. Like, things are moving
1449
01:46:22.630 --> 01:46:30.395
at, like, a 1000000 miles an hour. So it's gonna be like that for a while longer until, this thing really starts to slow down and ossify.
1450
01:46:30.935 --> 01:46:34.795
But there's a benefit to that. You know? We could keep stuff on the first layer,
1451
01:46:35.335 --> 01:46:35.995
you know,
1452
01:46:36.455 --> 01:46:37.335
nice and,
1453
01:46:37.975 --> 01:46:39.400
not breaking, which is great.
1454
01:46:40.360 --> 01:46:42.840
1455
01:46:43.239 --> 01:46:43.900
the show,
1456
01:46:44.920 --> 01:46:46.620
titled questions from 6102.
1457
01:46:48.375 --> 01:46:54.395
And he sends he sends questions ahead of time like he just dropped a question in. We're not gonna get to Watchtower so quickly.
1458
01:46:54.775 --> 01:46:59.850
I didn't think he was gonna be in the comments, so he actually sent these questions ahead of time. So the first question is,
1459
01:47:00.870 --> 01:47:04.090
what do they what do you guys see for the future of joint market?
1460
01:47:04.585 --> 01:47:10.765
Will it slowly grow in popularity as tools improve or remain a more niche tool? We'll start with OpenOps because,
1461
01:47:11.545 --> 01:47:16.380
he's kind of dedicated himself to to making the UX easier for join market.
1462
01:47:17.480 --> 01:47:22.725
1463
01:47:23.765 --> 01:47:24.665
It it comes,
1464
01:47:25.845 --> 01:47:34.400
you know, it comes with a short a steep but short learning curve. But after you have mastered it, you have you have a wallet which gives you privacy
1465
01:47:34.940 --> 01:47:36.080
and gives you perfect,
1466
01:47:37.420 --> 01:47:40.160
coin control, and you can construct the
1467
01:47:40.815 --> 01:47:43.875
any transactions you like. You can use page join. You can use
1468
01:47:44.255 --> 01:47:45.074
coin joins,
1469
01:47:45.454 --> 01:47:48.594
and you can pay with coin join and
1470
01:47:51.770 --> 01:47:55.710
well, a lot lot lot of other things which are hidden in the in the scripts.
1471
01:47:56.570 --> 01:47:58.590
So the future I mean, the future is
1472
01:47:59.025 --> 01:48:01.525
that it is continued to be developed since
1473
01:48:01.985 --> 01:48:13.890
6 years now, and there is no stop in the development. Like, you know, if you look back how was it 5 years ago, it is absolutely not the same how it how it is now. And also it's just been changed
1474
01:48:14.350 --> 01:48:16.565
to be to default to
1475
01:48:17.505 --> 01:48:20.485
native Segwit addresses. So you have some,
1476
01:48:23.400 --> 01:48:31.500
not only you have some fee savings there, but now it is much easier to use it as the external wallet for
1477
01:48:31.915 --> 01:48:34.095
your lightning node because
1478
01:48:34.555 --> 01:48:40.320
that's that's what is most useful in it. And that's why I'm that's why I'm trying to kind of
1479
01:48:42.079 --> 01:48:59.179
explain or or I will definitely need to write this up in in more detail how how to do it. But you have a selection of different size of coins, different size UTXOs in your joint market wallet, which is which are, like, individually coin joined to a to a different level. And you can
1480
01:48:59.560 --> 01:49:01.420
pick and choose 1 and just open,
1481
01:49:03.239 --> 01:49:04.060
a lightning
1482
01:49:04.760 --> 01:49:05.820
channel from that.
1483
01:49:06.199 --> 01:49:06.699
And
1484
01:49:07.225 --> 01:49:08.445
the drone market developers,
1485
01:49:08.905 --> 01:49:11.165
like especially VoxLink, who is the most,
1486
01:49:11.785 --> 01:49:14.285
kind of active, who is coordinating the project currently,
1487
01:49:15.870 --> 01:49:19.170
is is quite quite interested in the in that direction as well.
1488
01:49:20.750 --> 01:49:21.250
To,
1489
01:49:21.950 --> 01:49:26.965
you know, use the audit use audit tools available to make make PageOn more inter,
1490
01:49:27.825 --> 01:49:29.445
compatible with other implementations
1491
01:49:29.825 --> 01:49:30.485
and also,
1492
01:49:32.100 --> 01:49:37.719
you know, pull enlightening as much as possible. There is also the work with with working with PSBTs,
1493
01:49:38.980 --> 01:49:40.040
which allows
1494
01:49:40.565 --> 01:49:42.425
either external signing of
1495
01:49:43.525 --> 01:49:44.744
transactions which are
1496
01:49:45.125 --> 01:49:47.784
constructed by joint markets or the other way around
1497
01:49:48.400 --> 01:49:52.340
to have joint market signed transactions which are constructed outside.
1498
01:49:53.679 --> 01:49:54.980
And then there is
1499
01:49:55.635 --> 01:50:04.890
in terms of what would really be a game changer is that there is an API in the works as well. I mean, it is it is a lot of work and it's structural changes.
1500
01:50:05.750 --> 01:50:09.690
Right? For and but what would that mean is that you could build,
1501
01:50:12.355 --> 01:50:15.255
other applications on top, which would just
1502
01:50:16.675 --> 01:50:17.415
call into
1503
01:50:17.955 --> 01:50:20.935
the draw market API running on your node
1504
01:50:21.360 --> 01:50:22.100
and you
1505
01:50:23.200 --> 01:50:23.700
could,
1506
01:50:24.920 --> 01:50:39.410
you know, coin join on the fly or use it as in a mobile wallet, etcetera. I mean, that is you know, it it it it takes a lot of time and there is plenty of plenty of things which are which are being done. Will it be niche? I think,
1507
01:50:40.370 --> 01:50:44.150
you know, Vita before Snow White and Taproot getting widely accepted
1508
01:50:44.770 --> 01:50:45.670
and we get
1509
01:50:48.295 --> 01:50:49.595
a huge take up in adoption,
1510
01:50:50.215 --> 01:50:51.035
I don't
1511
01:50:51.495 --> 01:50:51.995
see
1512
01:50:52.535 --> 01:50:53.435
coin joints
1513
01:50:53.950 --> 01:50:54.850
to be
1514
01:50:55.310 --> 01:50:55.810
viable
1515
01:50:56.110 --> 01:51:01.890
and to be available for everyone because it just it will be just getting too expensive.
1516
01:51:02.990 --> 01:51:03.490
So
1517
01:51:03.905 --> 01:51:05.365
it will be always a niche.
1518
01:51:05.745 --> 01:51:07.845
And that's why a lot of,
1519
01:51:08.385 --> 01:51:14.550
so these tech techniques which are hidden and not appearing as, like, huge transactions on the blockchain are very important,
1520
01:51:15.010 --> 01:51:16.150
which can be
1521
01:51:16.770 --> 01:51:18.870
pay joins, can be coin swaps, can be,
1522
01:51:19.810 --> 01:51:24.295
lightning general opens and closes and submarine swaps and things like that are
1523
01:51:25.554 --> 01:51:27.974
much more important because they are also,
1524
01:51:29.795 --> 01:51:34.800
breaking the common owner ownership hero heuristic, which we are again we we are going against,
1525
01:51:35.180 --> 01:51:36.700
but they are not,
1526
01:51:37.260 --> 01:51:37.760
wasting,
1527
01:51:38.540 --> 01:51:39.680
block space basically.
1528
01:51:42.605 --> 01:51:43.105
So,
1529
01:51:43.645 --> 01:51:48.225
yeah, I see joint market being you know staying very versatile and you know
1530
01:51:49.840 --> 01:52:00.315
being a niche as well, but then it is finding its, you know, place and we'll continue to do the thing. Yeah. Evan, you wouldn't be my boy if you didn't have a strong opinion here.
1531
01:52:00.615 --> 01:52:01.595
1532
01:52:02.135 --> 01:52:02.955
1533
01:52:03.790 --> 01:52:09.890
you know, it's it's very great to see the UI become more usable. Like, I real I love what you guys have done with Rash Fi blips.
1534
01:52:10.270 --> 01:52:14.125
But I really don't see we're gonna think we're gonna see a lot of increased usage,
1535
01:52:15.305 --> 01:52:15.805
on
1536
01:52:18.505 --> 01:52:20.045
on the market unless
1537
01:52:20.680 --> 01:52:29.740
there's, like, someone creates some sort of, like, custodial middleman service for this thing where they could eat some of the fees by doing it in bulk
1538
01:52:30.395 --> 01:52:38.735
and, you know, provide, like, some sort of interface where, you know, you could just, like, deposit your coins on there. And and you don't have to go through the complexities of,
1539
01:52:39.550 --> 01:52:43.170
you know, just running your own node and connecting it to join market like that.
1540
01:52:43.790 --> 01:52:50.275
You know, however, you know, hopefully, people are able to iterate on the software that exists today and make, you know, more usable
1541
01:52:50.895 --> 01:52:52.275
user friendly solutions.
1542
01:52:52.975 --> 01:52:56.195
But, you know, it's really an uphill battle. I mean,
1543
01:52:56.790 --> 01:53:05.050
we're quite fortunate to have the solutions that we have right now. This wasn't the same story as it was you've been, like, you know, a couple years ago.
1544
01:53:05.655 --> 01:53:05.975
And,
1545
01:53:06.695 --> 01:53:09.675
you know, as far as CoinJoin go, I'm really excited
1546
01:53:10.215 --> 01:53:18.100
for people to keep cranking out on JoinMarket, for people that keep cranking out on Samurai and Whirlpool, which is, you know, become a really solid solution.
1547
01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:25.575
And I'm really excited to see, what the Wasabi guys do as far as not even not even just their new interface,
1548
01:53:26.115 --> 01:53:28.615
but their new implementation. And Wabi Sabi.
1549
01:53:29.235 --> 01:53:33.360
Wabi savvy. Exactly. Yeah. So I'm really excited for those guys to
1550
01:53:33.820 --> 01:53:37.120
learn from their mistakes and build, like, an even better,
1551
01:53:37.660 --> 01:53:47.675
1552
01:53:48.280 --> 01:53:49.260
all this CoinJoin
1553
01:53:49.640 --> 01:53:50.140
competition,
1554
01:53:51.320 --> 01:53:52.760
that that all these different,
1555
01:53:54.280 --> 01:54:01.565
you know, tools are competing with each other, and there's, like, a ton of anger and and, fighting on on social media about it.
1556
01:54:02.025 --> 01:54:07.140
That is super fucking bullish. Like, 2 years ago, we didn't have multiple platforms to fight over.
1557
01:54:07.600 --> 01:54:11.300
It was just joint market. The only thing that existed was joint market.
1558
01:54:11.755 --> 01:54:19.535
Yeah. So so I wanna see more competition here. I like that there's a business model associated with it. I mean, the thing the reason I was super bullish on joint market,
1559
01:54:20.130 --> 01:54:23.270
originally when it first came out, it was first announced,
1560
01:54:24.130 --> 01:54:30.995
in development was was this idea that it provided a financial incentive to provide liquidity. Right? Which is we're all about incentives
1561
01:54:31.615 --> 01:54:34.115
in the Bitcoin land. Like, you wanna have strong incentives
1562
01:54:35.719 --> 01:54:37.260
that that that reward,
1563
01:54:38.600 --> 01:54:41.420
expected behavior, behavior that we wanna see more of.
1564
01:54:43.015 --> 01:54:46.715
Joint Market does that on a more distributed scale, but but both,
1565
01:54:47.255 --> 01:54:52.449
Samurai Whirlpool and Wasabi have shown that there's an incentive for centralized companies,
1566
01:54:53.630 --> 01:54:54.610
just like Signal
1567
01:54:55.070 --> 01:54:56.849
or or WhatsApp or something,
1568
01:54:57.475 --> 01:55:01.335
to provide a privacy focused tool and make money off of it.
1569
01:55:03.315 --> 01:55:08.850
There there there's a demand there, and then they have an incentive to try and provide a superior privacy product.
1570
01:55:09.150 --> 01:55:20.965
I think, ultimately, what we need to see is we need to see it. If it stays niche, if CoinJoin stays niche, if PayJoint stays niche, we have lost. Like, we need to see it in our everyday apps,
1571
01:55:22.060 --> 01:55:23.120
And I don't think
1572
01:55:24.060 --> 01:55:30.235
that's so hard to see. Like, I I think the samurai guys were on top of it to begin with.
1573
01:55:30.715 --> 01:55:38.494
Mhmm. Maybe not on execution, but on concept. Mhmm. This idea that we're not gonna see the changes we wanna see on the protocol layer.
1574
01:55:39.460 --> 01:55:47.240
We're not gonna see those change. As a privacy focused person, we're just not gonna if you wanna see privacy on the protocol level, it's just not gonna happen.
1575
01:55:48.855 --> 01:55:53.675
We might get certain little, you know, fundamental improvements, stuff like Taproot,
1576
01:55:55.050 --> 01:55:56.670
and and hopefully, ultimately,
1577
01:55:57.850 --> 01:55:59.950
you know, cross input signature aggregation.
1578
01:56:00.330 --> 01:56:02.750
But we wanna see this on the app level,
1579
01:56:03.370 --> 01:56:04.510
and I think
1580
01:56:05.035 --> 01:56:11.135
it's possible. Like, I I think, like, even if you talk about something like BlueWallet, which isn't like a privacy focused mobile wallet,
1581
01:56:11.995 --> 01:56:14.255
they've taken into into
1582
01:56:15.180 --> 01:56:17.760
like, account, like, most best practices.
1583
01:56:19.020 --> 01:56:20.960
And if they wanna keep getting recommended,
1584
01:56:21.820 --> 01:56:28.054
like, they're gonna have to add privacy tools in there. Like, they have PayJoin. I think they have the most recent BIP 78 PayJoin.
1585
01:56:28.355 --> 01:56:29.255
1586
01:56:30.170 --> 01:56:33.150
1587
01:56:33.850 --> 01:56:34.350
License.
1588
01:56:35.210 --> 01:56:39.630
Is arguably our end user privacy tool that we're hoping for. But I I think,
1589
01:56:40.635 --> 01:56:43.295
you know, maybe, like, certain things could
1590
01:56:43.755 --> 01:56:45.454
could could be enough for us
1591
01:56:47.230 --> 01:56:50.370
if it wasn't for for insidious k KYC.
1592
01:56:51.230 --> 01:56:58.074
So, like, we're we're, like, we're, like, set up in a worse position because the majority of Bitcoin users are coming in through KYC onramps.
1593
01:56:58.614 --> 01:57:01.434
They're being, like, tagged and bagged as they come in.
1594
01:57:01.974 --> 01:57:05.880
So all of your transactions are with tagged and bagged people. Right?
1595
01:57:06.340 --> 01:57:08.680
You have a bunch of deer meeting up in the forest.
1596
01:57:09.300 --> 01:57:13.320
Those deer probably wouldn't get identified, but they all have trackers on them.
1597
01:57:13.975 --> 01:57:16.635
So, obviously, they're getting they're getting identified. Right?
1598
01:57:17.335 --> 01:57:22.555
So so we have to go above and beyond because of this KYC hellhole that we've kind of
1599
01:57:23.010 --> 01:57:28.630
found ourselves in. I mean, for no fault of our own, it's just what's gonna happen. Like, our whole our whole world is KYC.
1600
01:57:29.410 --> 01:57:44.660
And I think we get past that ultimately through, you know, instead of buying Bitcoin, you earn Bitcoin. Instead of selling Bitcoin, you spend it. But, it it's gonna be a a long process. So, I mean, I this is a great I think this is a great time to transition to Lightning. On Lightning, I think,
1601
01:57:45.040 --> 01:57:48.820
ultimately, the sender gets a a massive privacy improvement.
1602
01:57:49.825 --> 01:57:55.365
I I've talked about on the pod that I'm the asshole that when someone sends me a donation or a tip
1603
01:57:56.900 --> 01:57:58.440
and tells me they did it,
1604
01:57:58.980 --> 01:58:07.695
and they're like, I wanna buy you a bottle of whiskey or something, I do, like, a little minor chain analysis of them, And I tell them I tell them things about their bag,
1605
01:58:08.074 --> 01:58:09.535
just to try and teach them.
1606
01:58:09.915 --> 01:58:17.430
If they pay me with lightning, I can't easily do that. So for a sender, lightning gives you an additional privacy improvement right off the fucking bat.
1607
01:58:18.050 --> 01:58:18.870
For the receiver,
1608
01:58:19.170 --> 01:58:24.205
it's not the case. There's a ton of fucking nuance in trying to receive Bitcoin privately through lightning.
1609
01:58:25.065 --> 01:58:26.125
We have a recent
1610
01:58:26.905 --> 01:58:27.945
paper on,
1611
01:58:28.425 --> 01:58:29.245
this subject
1612
01:58:29.860 --> 01:58:30.840
that came out.
1613
01:58:31.300 --> 01:58:40.744
I put this in the the video if you're watching the livestream. If you're one of the few freaks watching livestream, we appreciate you. An empirical analysis of privacy in the Lightning Network,
1614
01:58:41.125 --> 01:58:41.945
that's arcsiv.org/abs/2003.12470.
1615
01:58:47.270 --> 01:58:48.090
You may have
1616
01:58:48.790 --> 01:58:53.449
seen this paper in the past. They recently updated it, which is why it's being brought up now.
1617
01:58:54.070 --> 01:58:54.890
This was
1618
01:58:55.815 --> 01:59:05.550
a question as a part of 61 zero two question hour. Have you had a chance to read the recent lightning privacy paper? He didn't ask, but I assume what is your opinion on that?
1619
01:59:11.815 --> 01:59:15.034
Can I start? Yeah. Yeah. Hit us with it. Open arms.
1620
01:59:15.494 --> 01:59:15.994
1621
01:59:16.534 --> 01:59:18.554
yeah. I just, put
1622
01:59:19.349 --> 01:59:21.050
a link as well about
1623
01:59:23.670 --> 01:59:26.250
slides from a presentation which I've done in HCCP,
1624
01:59:27.190 --> 01:59:27.690
2020,
1625
01:59:28.565 --> 01:59:33.705
which you can download and, you know, have a look. There are a couple of things mentioned there which are part of this
1626
01:59:34.085 --> 01:59:39.179
article and, I mean, also been triggered by the previous version version of this of of this article.
1627
01:59:41.719 --> 01:59:42.520
Also, just,
1628
01:59:43.079 --> 01:59:46.780
one comment before I forget about. So paying with lightning
1629
01:59:47.764 --> 01:59:48.164
quite,
1630
01:59:48.565 --> 01:59:52.824
private and please do it, especially, like, through multiple hops,
1631
01:59:53.525 --> 01:59:59.210
when your peer peer not not seeing your channel balance directly is is absolutely great.
1632
02:00:01.590 --> 02:00:06.410
The because because of the onion routing, so it means that you can only see the neighbors
1633
02:00:07.355 --> 02:00:11.535
one hop or can only see the neighbors and cannot see, you know, 2 hops,
1634
02:00:12.315 --> 02:00:14.575
away either forward or backwards.
1635
02:00:15.595 --> 02:00:16.540
So that's why,
1636
02:00:17.100 --> 02:00:20.640
basically, why a payment would be could be quite private
1637
02:00:21.100 --> 02:00:26.400
unless you are surveying and separating the wall network every 30 seconds which you go into regarding
1638
02:00:27.085 --> 02:00:27.585
paper.
1639
02:00:27.965 --> 02:00:28.465
Receiving
1640
02:00:28.925 --> 02:00:40.650
on lightning, you don't need to. You can receive on chain. You should use a new address every time. You can use a pay name. You can use your BTC pay server. Just receive on chain. And
1641
02:00:41.165 --> 02:00:54.120
when you are running Lightning, you have every all of your spending money on Lightning, you can pay to an on chain address. That is called a submarine swap, and you have multiple ways to do it. The
1642
02:00:54.660 --> 02:00:56.840
l and d Lightning Labs do
1643
02:00:57.315 --> 02:00:58.615
run a loop service.
1644
02:00:58.995 --> 02:01:01.735
It it is integrated in, like, RTL,
1645
02:01:02.515 --> 02:01:06.780
the most, popular kind of node management interface. You have both exchange,
1646
02:01:07.400 --> 02:01:08.139
which is
1647
02:01:09.000 --> 02:01:09.500
sorry?
1648
02:01:10.040 --> 02:01:14.780
1649
02:01:15.305 --> 02:01:17.805
1650
02:01:18.265 --> 02:01:20.045
Yeah. There there is there is a similar
1651
02:01:22.105 --> 02:01:24.205
so to loop, there is a similar
1652
02:01:25.580 --> 02:01:27.280
thing which is called botz.exchange.
1653
02:01:27.660 --> 02:01:29.120
It's it's, bots,
1654
02:01:29.580 --> 02:01:33.680
b o l t z dot exchange, which is a sovereign swap service
1655
02:01:34.094 --> 02:01:37.875
which where you can pay a lightning invoice and it sends out,
1656
02:01:39.135 --> 02:01:43.635
an on chain payment for you. Again, there's, like, half a percent fee, but that's a fee
1657
02:01:44.079 --> 02:01:44.579
not
1658
02:01:44.960 --> 02:01:50.500
for not just for the service but you gain tremendous amount of privacy there. So if you
1659
02:01:51.125 --> 02:01:51.625
pay
1660
02:01:52.565 --> 02:01:53.705
your mobile VPN
1661
02:01:54.165 --> 02:01:55.305
and you don't go
1662
02:01:55.845 --> 02:01:56.585
through the,
1663
02:01:57.125 --> 02:02:00.949
you know, third party lightning service, You can go to boss.exchange,
1664
02:02:02.929 --> 02:02:12.125
pay your lightning invoice, and have the final amount sent on chain from their wallet has will have nothing to do with you in terms of on chain
1665
02:02:12.585 --> 02:02:13.085
footprint.
1666
02:02:13.385 --> 02:02:14.425
Right? So
1667
02:02:15.840 --> 02:02:18.100
and if you there you go. My 2 sets,
1668
02:02:18.560 --> 02:02:23.785
the developer of of RTLs is that both is coming to RTLs. Well, great. So, you know, the more the better.
1669
02:02:24.745 --> 02:02:27.865
So I just want to want to say that that you can
1670
02:02:28.425 --> 02:02:32.685
these are interchangeable. It's all Bitcoin. You can receive continue to receive
1671
02:02:33.420 --> 02:02:36.480
payments on chain while you are paying everything on lightning.
1672
02:02:38.860 --> 02:02:41.039
So okay sorry about that it's just
1673
02:02:41.615 --> 02:02:49.395
something which which people do not really see. And all all the mobile address mobile wallets like Breeze, Phoenix,
1674
02:02:49.695 --> 02:02:50.835
even wallets of Satoshi
1675
02:02:52.630 --> 02:02:53.130
do
1676
02:02:54.150 --> 02:03:00.125
support paying to an on chain address straight from the lightning balance, and that is again a submarine swap.
1677
02:03:04.925 --> 02:03:07.185
So that's I mean, that's a long
1678
02:03:07.590 --> 02:03:09.110
thing to please please,
1679
02:03:10.070 --> 02:03:21.555
1680
02:03:22.495 --> 02:03:32.370
Well, it's it's it's not very possible at the moment. No. I mean, you can use a custodial wallet. Right? And this goes back to the custodial privacy that we were talking about with the iPhone. Right? Like, I could use
1681
02:03:32.764 --> 02:03:48.500
1682
02:03:49.520 --> 02:03:52.685
But and someone asked, is lightning a mixer? Well,
1683
02:03:53.305 --> 02:04:00.030
like, a cost to your lightning node, yes, it is quite the same as a mixer because you throw in money and you take out another one.
1684
02:04:00.989 --> 02:04:06.929
Another kind of sets even on either on chain or or or through lightning. So, I mean, there is
1685
02:04:07.725 --> 02:04:09.585
in terms of the way of working,
1686
02:04:11.565 --> 02:04:13.105
there are some parallels there
1687
02:04:13.405 --> 02:04:17.190
except you call it custodial lightning wallet and not a centralized mixer.
1688
02:04:20.530 --> 02:04:22.870
But, yeah, just just don't go custodial.
1689
02:04:25.205 --> 02:04:32.905
1690
02:04:35.140 --> 02:04:35.640
from
1691
02:04:36.260 --> 02:04:44.264
from go yeah. Don't go custodial with significant amounts. If you're withdrawing from a custody exchange I mean, look, this is where the like,
1692
02:04:45.125 --> 02:04:51.225
I wish there was no nuance. If if you're withdrawing from a cust custodial exchange let's say we're withdrawing from Bitfinex.
1693
02:04:51.820 --> 02:04:52.320
Mhmm.
1694
02:04:52.780 --> 02:05:03.165
And and and I have a Lightning node that I don't want Bitfinex to know about or the rest of the world. Yeah. And I'm KYC with Bitfinex, then I would draw it to Wallet Satoshi, then I pay from Wallet to Satoshi to my node.
1695
02:05:03.465 --> 02:05:05.805
Wallet to Satoshi might be able to connect the dice,
1696
02:05:06.585 --> 02:05:12.100
1697
02:05:12.480 --> 02:05:13.460
1698
02:05:13.920 --> 02:05:19.804
So there's, like, an argument to be made on Lightning. There's an argument to be made for custodial on Bitcoin, probably never
1699
02:05:20.264 --> 02:05:21.085
use custodial.
1700
02:05:21.545 --> 02:05:33.345
1701
02:05:33.965 --> 02:05:39.745
1702
02:05:40.200 --> 02:05:41.100
that that maybe,
1703
02:05:42.360 --> 02:05:44.060
at least the freaks that
1704
02:05:44.840 --> 02:05:48.940
that are having a good time, having fun staying poor out there, can relate to.
1705
02:05:49.965 --> 02:05:52.304
I was playing poker the other day, and they said, Matt,
1706
02:05:53.164 --> 02:05:54.465
Matt, you can't be,
1707
02:05:55.965 --> 02:06:14.015
you can't be, like, sitting around never being the banker. Like, this is, like, week 10 of poker. You've never been the banker. It's your turn to be the banker. It's like, I don't wanna be the banker. Like, why am I the banker? Like, you guys should just be lucky that I'm playing with you, you know, like, blah blah blah. And they, like, compelled me to be the banker. So I was like, okay. Fuck it. I'll be the banker.
1708
02:06:14.500 --> 02:06:20.840
And then some guys were like, I wanna receive I want I wanna pay in lightning. I wanna pay in fucking Onchain or whatever.
1709
02:06:21.145 --> 02:06:26.125
So I I gave people individual addresses for on chain if they wanted on chain.
1710
02:06:26.505 --> 02:06:30.844
Otherwise, I provided them individual invoices if they wanted to pay on Lightning.
1711
02:06:31.890 --> 02:06:32.390
And
1712
02:06:32.770 --> 02:06:35.510
so one guy I provided a Lightning invoice,
1713
02:06:35.970 --> 02:06:37.590
and the Lightning invoice said,
1714
02:06:37.970 --> 02:06:39.030
this is for 500,000
1715
02:06:39.410 --> 02:06:40.390
sats. Right?
1716
02:06:40.725 --> 02:06:47.385
Which obviously an invoice would say. And then it showed his NIM, and then I put his NIM in the in the in the,
1717
02:06:48.325 --> 02:06:48.825
memo
1718
02:06:50.790 --> 02:06:55.670
For my own so I knew that he was the one who paid it. Right? And then I put,
1719
02:06:56.310 --> 02:06:56.810
poker.
1720
02:06:57.190 --> 02:07:02.155
So I put his nim plus poker in the memo plus the amount, and he paid me with strike.
1721
02:07:02.615 --> 02:07:03.435
So now,
1722
02:07:03.735 --> 02:07:11.670
Jack forever and anyone who any regulator who he works with has this from his KYC name
1723
02:07:12.130 --> 02:07:14.710
has him paying this invoice that says his NIM
1724
02:07:15.170 --> 02:07:15.670
poker
1725
02:07:16.610 --> 02:07:17.510
and the amount.
1726
02:07:17.994 --> 02:07:22.735
Right? And, like, he would have been way better off if I had just given him an invoice from Wallace Satoshi.
1727
02:07:23.994 --> 02:07:33.040
1728
02:07:34.614 --> 02:07:37.034
That's what I did. Yep. So
1729
02:07:37.894 --> 02:07:43.930
1730
02:07:44.710 --> 02:07:45.690
he fucked me.
1731
02:07:46.710 --> 02:07:53.585
Right? Yeah. Because now now Jack has now he's my boy. You know, hopefully, Jack isn't gonna come after me,
1732
02:07:53.965 --> 02:07:57.824
you know. But but he but now this regulated entity
1733
02:07:58.605 --> 02:07:59.105
has
1734
02:08:00.370 --> 02:08:06.950
knows that that that Matt I mean, this is this is my public note, knows that I was playing poker with this specific user
1735
02:08:07.355 --> 02:08:18.440
at this time, and this was the amount we paid. Yeah. Absolutely. As a receiver. And that wasn't my that wasn't my chose choice. I provided the invoice, but I didn't know where he was gonna pay it from. I didn't know he was gonna pay it straight from KYC.
1736
02:08:19.300 --> 02:08:23.460
1737
02:08:23.925 --> 02:08:26.985
1738
02:08:28.085 --> 02:08:29.465
1739
02:08:30.005 --> 02:08:37.950
I mean, you realize that very well and and, you know, that's why I wrote this example. There is, for example, if you're not not having noticed home, there is lightningdecoder.com
1740
02:08:39.370 --> 02:08:43.745
where you can put any landing invoice and it just shows what the content is. It's not
1741
02:08:44.205 --> 02:08:49.985
encrypted. It is just in a format which needs to be decoded and shows you the node ID where you are paying to.
1742
02:08:50.360 --> 02:08:53.020
And that note I mean, there is no good,
1743
02:08:53.640 --> 02:09:02.994
solution at the moment to hide that node ID. That could be if you do kind of fake nodes with through private channels with the, like, kind of, HDLC
1744
02:09:03.534 --> 02:09:04.594
acceptor API.
1745
02:09:04.895 --> 02:09:09.280
These are not built yet being worked on. But what I would have done
1746
02:09:09.720 --> 02:09:10.220
well,
1747
02:09:10.840 --> 02:09:16.765
I'm I'm not saying, you know, I mean, you you obviously, you know, did did did well because you did fulfill the
1748
02:09:18.125 --> 02:09:18.625
the,
1749
02:09:20.125 --> 02:09:25.105
ask of that friend of yours to play in lightning, which is great. You know, it's a great feeling to play with lightning.
1750
02:09:25.405 --> 02:09:45.580
I don't know how to do strike because it's not available in in Europe yet. I haven't used it either, only on the receiving end. I've only been doxed unintentionally by strike. I've never actually used it. Right. So so what you could do is just to take your phone, download the mobile wallet, let it be Breeze or Phoenix. These are non custodial, so you have the keys and you use those as the
1751
02:09:47.080 --> 02:09:49.740
as as instead of having a pile of,
1752
02:09:50.200 --> 02:09:53.645
you know, cash on the table. Right? People just throw the
1753
02:09:54.185 --> 02:10:00.685
the sets in there and then you do what you do with that later on. You can withdraw it on chain or you can you can
1754
02:10:01.430 --> 02:10:05.610
send it over to your lightning nodes later on from that mobile wallet. And
1755
02:10:06.230 --> 02:10:10.105
you use it only for that and, you know, it's gone. There will be no
1756
02:10:12.025 --> 02:10:13.565
no no more thing to worry about.
1757
02:10:13.945 --> 02:10:27.239
1758
02:10:28.545 --> 02:10:30.165
1759
02:10:30.705 --> 02:10:35.830
which we had just, like, linked previously, that is, like, the 3rd slide. Right. And
1760
02:10:36.130 --> 02:10:41.190
1761
02:10:42.985 --> 02:10:43.804
is is
1762
02:10:44.505 --> 02:10:49.885
with lightning as it's currently set up where you you have this fixed public key. Right?
1763
02:10:50.540 --> 02:10:55.760
Mhmm. And this your note is attached to public key. I mean, it is it is set up in a way
1764
02:10:56.780 --> 02:10:59.245
that if you're looking at it from, like, a regular
1765
02:10:59.545 --> 02:11:03.885
regulatory compliant exchange point of view, like, something like a strike or
1766
02:11:04.505 --> 02:11:08.900
a bid for next withdrawals or, like, a bottle pay. Like, you're talking about
1767
02:11:09.380 --> 02:11:15.480
they're getting they're they're gonna have a database of public keys, and they're gonna have them attached to KYC.
1768
02:11:15.965 --> 02:11:18.945
And there's gonna be you know, it it is set up in a way
1769
02:11:19.885 --> 02:11:20.704
that the receiver
1770
02:11:21.565 --> 02:11:23.025
has very poor privacy.
1771
02:11:23.940 --> 02:11:32.040
And I I I'm I've been told in the past when I brought this up, like, rotating pub keys, all this shit's gonna happen. We're not gonna have to deal with this in the future.
1772
02:11:32.420 --> 02:11:32.920
Okay.
1773
02:11:33.605 --> 02:11:34.825
I look forward to it.
1774
02:11:35.205 --> 02:11:37.545
But right now, as it stands, the receiver
1775
02:11:38.005 --> 02:11:44.730
end of story. If you wanna talk about there's all this nuance and stuff the receiver can do. But at the end of the day, the receiver has horrible privacy guarantees.
1776
02:11:46.469 --> 02:11:49.770
1777
02:11:50.155 --> 02:11:51.695
when you receive Bitcoin,
1778
02:11:52.155 --> 02:11:53.695
receive to an on chain address
1779
02:11:54.155 --> 02:12:00.460
and make it clear for everyone that you can actually pay from a lightning wallet to an on chain address.
1780
02:12:02.600 --> 02:12:03.420
And if not,
1781
02:12:03.720 --> 02:12:05.900
then send them to, you know, borist.exchange
1782
02:12:06.520 --> 02:12:08.985
or whatever other there are plenty of other
1783
02:12:09.465 --> 02:12:11.405
services run by, you know, or
1784
02:12:11.705 --> 02:12:12.205
other,
1785
02:12:13.225 --> 02:12:14.605
companies and things.
1786
02:12:16.025 --> 02:12:16.420
1787
02:12:17.060 --> 02:12:25.560
So, Anthony, we have you in the comments. You're saying, since we're talking privacy, my recommendation is to avoid sending mixed coins to your node. Why? Hit us in the comments. No. I would I would only send
1788
02:12:26.085 --> 02:12:27.465
1789
02:12:27.925 --> 02:12:37.619
1790
02:12:39.280 --> 02:12:39.780
Right?
1791
02:12:40.159 --> 02:12:51.195
Like, that that that gave especially if it's a public note. If it's public note I mean, someone else asked in the comments. I don't have their name. Is it possible for an average user to do a profitable lightning note? And, I mean, we have,
1792
02:12:51.915 --> 02:12:52.415
Bosworth,
1793
02:12:53.260 --> 02:12:57.440
Alex Bosworth, who I respect the shit out of, you know, thank you for your service,
1794
02:12:58.540 --> 02:13:00.780
like, bragging about his his,
1795
02:13:01.515 --> 02:13:04.335
revenue that he's bringing in on his routing note. Like, bro,
1796
02:13:04.795 --> 02:13:08.495
you named the reputation score after yourself. It's the boss
1797
02:13:09.380 --> 02:13:16.920
score. Like, of course, you're making money off of it. I think the average user, like, this average sovereign Bitcoin node operator,
1798
02:13:17.985 --> 02:13:25.765
who is running everything through Tor because he doesn't wanna expose his IP address, he's fucked. Like, there's no way that he's gonna ever have a profitable Lightning node. That is fine.
1799
02:13:26.370 --> 02:13:39.755
Like, it's it's it's he's gonna run it for ideological reasons. I run my nodes for ideological reasons. Both of you guys run your nodes, I think, for ideological reasons. Like, am I am I am I misguided here? Oh, no. No. That's what I was trying to allude to at the beginning of the show. Like,
1800
02:13:40.775 --> 02:13:46.130
1801
02:13:46.430 --> 02:13:52.935
is not gonna have the same, privacy properties that your your private one does use. Right? But you're also
1802
02:13:53.315 --> 02:13:55.015
you know, have this chance of
1803
02:13:55.555 --> 02:14:03.320
making a a profit on that router. The thing is what the misconception here, right, is that people think, okay. I can just put up,
1804
02:14:04.260 --> 02:14:10.364
this capital and create these channels and then sit on my ass for a month and then come back and see a lot of profit.
1805
02:14:11.065 --> 02:14:21.710
And if that's what you think is gonna happen, like, sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's just not how it works. If you wanna be a routing node and make a decent amount of profit,
1806
02:14:22.810 --> 02:14:39.719
you need to, a, put up a significant amount of capital, and, b, you gotta be managing it daily. And if you really wanna, like, be cutting it c, it has to be on ClearNet on, like, AWS. It's gotta be ClearNet. You can you might wanna you could have the TOR option on your node, but you can't have a TOR only
1807
02:14:40.264 --> 02:14:49.485
1808
02:14:51.020 --> 02:14:52.719
1809
02:14:53.100 --> 02:14:59.995
1810
02:15:00.455 --> 02:15:01.195
Yarls Tor.
1811
02:15:01.495 --> 02:15:04.795
And guess what? Who is managing that? And is it profitable?
1812
02:15:05.895 --> 02:15:13.820
1813
02:15:14.600 --> 02:15:16.860
1814
02:15:17.545 --> 02:15:19.565
1815
02:15:21.465 --> 02:15:34.130
1816
02:15:35.034 --> 02:15:35.514
1817
02:15:35.914 --> 02:15:37.614
1818
02:15:38.954 --> 02:15:42.574
and only has What a tiny node. Yeah. Exactly.
1819
02:15:42.875 --> 02:15:44.335
Only has only an address.
1820
02:15:45.550 --> 02:15:53.330
1821
02:15:53.825 --> 02:15:54.325
1822
02:15:54.945 --> 02:16:01.045
1823
02:16:01.639 --> 02:16:09.500
lightning dev. You know? Like, this is ridiculous. Like, no one should be I have people reach out to me. They're like, Bosworth said that he made, like, 5 Bitcoin.
1824
02:16:10.034 --> 02:16:12.135
Like, why, like, can I not make money?
1825
02:16:12.755 --> 02:16:14.054
You know? Like, it's ridiculous.
1826
02:16:14.594 --> 02:16:26.980
1827
02:16:27.605 --> 02:16:35.705
1828
02:16:36.511 --> 02:16:44.131
1829
02:16:45.274 --> 02:16:47.455
You can raise the fees from the minimum
1830
02:16:47.915 --> 02:16:48.734
well below
1831
02:16:49.035 --> 02:16:56.609
the default so people will still accept just pressing enter. And you will actually make more money than with the same liquidity
1832
02:16:57.229 --> 02:17:05.475
putting on the writing lightning notes with plenty of work done. You know, this is just fact. And that's what it wants. Neither of the returns neither of the returns
1833
02:17:05.775 --> 02:17:06.675
1834
02:17:07.215 --> 02:17:09.075
your hot wallet risk that you're taking.
1835
02:17:10.480 --> 02:17:15.780
1836
02:17:16.400 --> 02:17:18.181
1837
02:17:19.440 --> 02:17:19.940
1838
02:17:21.345 --> 02:17:30.301
But this is the answer to the question. Can you make money on your note? You can make minimal amount of money. You can have 2 benefits. With lightning, you can pay instantly.
1839
02:17:30.761 --> 02:17:33.900
Mhmm. And with drone market, you can,
1840
02:17:35.080 --> 02:17:37.101
gain privacy by being a maker.
1841
02:17:38.824 --> 02:17:40.444
And which one you want most
1842
02:17:41.064 --> 02:17:43.404
or more or do you want you you can do both
1843
02:17:44.590 --> 02:17:54.546
and, you know, make a couple of sets. And indeed, in lightning, you because you have the force close risk of, you know, force closing the channel is hugely expensive,
1844
02:17:56.205 --> 02:17:57.585
and indeed you need
1845
02:17:59.070 --> 02:18:01.810
significant size channels like close
1846
02:18:02.110 --> 02:18:04.610
get to see what is what is the
1847
02:18:06.534 --> 02:18:09.755
average in one ml slash statistics, for example,
1848
02:18:10.614 --> 02:18:11.595
it's like 2,800,000.
1849
02:18:12.375 --> 02:18:18.510
So if you go, you know, 10 times lower than that, that you are far below the level where it could be any useful.
1850
02:18:18.890 --> 02:18:23.390
So, yes, you need you need capacity. And if you want to route, you don't,
1851
02:18:23.915 --> 02:18:28.574
you know, 2 peers are not I mean, 1 peer is not enough, 2 is definitely not, but then
1852
02:18:28.954 --> 02:18:30.335
2 is, you know,
1853
02:18:30.851 --> 02:18:35.910
practically can work, but not enough. You can need to have 10, you know, 20, 30, 100 peers.
1854
02:18:36.931 --> 02:18:39.520
So Wait. I don't know about that. Money.
1855
02:18:41.154 --> 02:18:53.840
1856
02:18:55.020 --> 02:18:56.400
Like, what? I I
1857
02:18:56.860 --> 02:19:00.945
I I'm running I'm running one of the largest Tor only routing nodes.
1858
02:19:02.285 --> 02:19:15.895
1859
02:19:16.835 --> 02:19:29.335
Network. It was generous. Parties with the freaks. Right? No. I helped the number go up. You did help the number go up, and and we salute you for that. But but it's not the best solution, not the best strategy
1860
02:19:29.795 --> 02:19:52.716
1861
02:19:53.650 --> 02:20:04.445
and we have Anthony here. He's on tour only with 10 channels. I only make, like, $1 a month. LOL. Well, first of all, Anthony, you have to measure your profit in stats. So you you've already you're already short Bitcoin.
1862
02:20:06.186 --> 02:20:06.686
I,
1863
02:20:07.625 --> 02:20:09.806
6102 asked me, will channel
1864
02:20:10.180 --> 02:20:13.720
closures cost more than yes. They have so far for me.
1865
02:20:14.100 --> 02:20:23.045
Right? I I my channel closures but this was my same issue, right, that Evan said, is that I just went too big. Like, I had, like, 350 channels on my node
1866
02:20:23.425 --> 02:20:28.130
all out to plebs. Like, probably, like, 60 of the channels were out to, like, shitty Casa notes.
1867
02:20:28.530 --> 02:20:36.710
Matt, I appreciate you. You know? And when the fees went up, they all forced closed on me, and they fucking wrecked me. Yeah. They, like, destroyed me. So
1868
02:20:38.355 --> 02:20:45.735
You need to handpick your peers. Yeah. Yeah. That that's fucked up. Right? We that wasn't what we were sold open, Arms. Like, we were sold
1869
02:20:46.115 --> 02:20:47.655
we were sold trustless.
1870
02:20:48.120 --> 02:21:04.601
I, you know, I understand trust minimized was really what we should have been sold. But still, regardless, like, this idea that I gotta pick my peers, that I have to know who my peers are is, like, a is a new concept. That's a something that was added after the fact. They were, like, oh, like, why you shouldn't just have random peers. You know,
1871
02:21:04.980 --> 02:21:07.800
1872
02:21:08.340 --> 02:21:16.585
Satoshi's assumptions weren't a 100% right. Sometimes we gotta learn some hard lessons along the way in this in creating these decentralized technologies.
1873
02:21:17.045 --> 02:21:27.190
1874
02:21:27.650 --> 02:21:28.230
1875
02:21:28.851 --> 02:21:46.561
1876
02:21:46.885 --> 02:21:52.505
to, like, 1 hundredth of a percent or something, and you, like, called you, like, shamed me on Twitter.
1877
02:21:53.045 --> 02:21:56.265
1878
02:21:56.620 --> 02:21:59.120
1879
02:21:59.900 --> 02:22:06.320
1880
02:22:07.085 --> 02:22:09.825
1881
02:22:11.565 --> 02:22:18.181
1882
02:22:19.601 --> 02:22:22.160
1883
02:22:22.801 --> 02:22:24.101
comment Ellen Biggs
1884
02:22:24.415 --> 02:22:27.955
tweets as well and and do he's doing something. You know? Let's talk about him.
1885
02:22:28.575 --> 02:22:30.755
Oh, yeah. Well, he or them. Right.
1886
02:22:31.135 --> 02:22:31.955
1887
02:22:34.180 --> 02:22:38.600
Is Alan Bigg a trustworthy actor? Is it a proper Bitcoiner?
1888
02:22:39.140 --> 02:22:47.715
1889
02:22:48.096 --> 02:22:51.075
but, you know, logical and seems to
1890
02:22:52.779 --> 02:22:55.359
want to, you know, do good for the network. I mean,
1891
02:22:55.739 --> 02:22:57.500
I don't know what it is
1892
02:22:58.060 --> 02:23:04.596
1893
02:23:05.375 --> 02:23:05.875
like,
1894
02:23:06.255 --> 02:23:07.556
half an hour from Langley,
1895
02:23:09.080 --> 02:23:14.220
which is the CIA headquarters for the non Americans or anyone who's not watched, like, my docudrama.
1896
02:23:14.760 --> 02:23:16.620
1897
02:23:17.568 --> 02:23:26.655
1898
02:23:27.420 --> 02:23:30.080
But it's, like, half the network. Ellen Big is, like, half the network.
1899
02:23:30.540 --> 02:23:33.440
1900
02:23:34.095 --> 02:23:43.210
1901
02:23:46.230 --> 02:23:49.851
Okay. What do we think about Ellen Bigg? Let's riff on this. No one talks about it.
1902
02:23:51.895 --> 02:23:54.555
1903
02:23:55.095 --> 02:23:58.155
he's insignificant, and then we shouldn't care. You know?
1904
02:23:58.490 --> 02:24:01.790
1905
02:24:03.450 --> 02:24:08.285
1906
02:24:08.984 --> 02:24:16.240
1907
02:24:17.260 --> 02:24:21.920
I understand the private capacity argument. I just I it's not beneficial.
1908
02:24:22.686 --> 02:24:35.391
1909
02:24:35.830 --> 02:24:36.650
just minuscule
1910
02:24:37.190 --> 02:24:41.095
because we we gotta keep iterating on this thing, and we we gotta find ways,
1911
02:24:42.455 --> 02:24:44.475
so that we're not dependent on just
1912
02:24:44.935 --> 02:24:47.354
that number, that black box value
1913
02:24:47.814 --> 02:24:54.399
cover saving our asses. We we can't be dependent on that. That that's not like the argument the argument that Bosworth makes, like, for the freaks
1914
02:24:54.780 --> 02:24:55.439
1915
02:24:55.955 --> 02:25:03.415
we we talked earlier about a completely private channel network, which is, as far as I'm concerned, is irrelevant to the average user.
1916
02:25:03.780 --> 02:25:10.280
There is a private channel usage that is relevant to the average user, which is that if I have
1917
02:25:10.660 --> 02:25:15.435
a channel with Evan, it's public node, let's say, as a as a explanation
1918
02:25:16.055 --> 02:25:20.395
Mhmm. And and that channel has 16,000,000 Sats total possible capacity,
1919
02:25:21.930 --> 02:25:28.189
I could then have private channels that do greater capacity than that, and they will always fulfill any
1920
02:25:28.726 --> 02:25:29.705
up to 16,000,000
1921
02:25:30.165 --> 02:25:30.905
sat request.
1922
02:25:31.766 --> 02:25:33.065
So you can have, like
1923
02:25:33.605 --> 02:25:41.860
as long as you have a channel that's large enough for your minimum payment, you can have a bunch of chat you can have a shadow private channel that's way larger,
1924
02:25:42.800 --> 02:25:47.745
that can fulfill that payment. So you're basically just broadcasting your largest payment capability.
1925
02:25:49.245 --> 02:25:53.905
1926
02:25:54.510 --> 02:26:03.330
1927
02:26:05.186 --> 02:26:07.445
1928
02:26:08.145 --> 02:26:12.005
if you want to make make money, for example Who who who are these people?
1929
02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:17.500
1930
02:26:18.120 --> 02:26:23.815
Exactly. It's actually of us. Yeah. And running We're, like, 3 of the 12. 3 of the 12
1931
02:26:24.436 --> 02:26:27.735
sovereign routing node operators are on this fucking chat right now.
1932
02:26:28.115 --> 02:26:28.615
Continue.
1933
02:26:30.280 --> 02:26:48.390
1934
02:26:49.330 --> 02:26:57.725
sets flying into one direction and they need more liquidity in that direction, then you don't want to just open another public channel. You want to open another
1935
02:26:58.105 --> 02:27:06.580
private channel so you're not advertising that your capacity is suddenly higher, but you will be able to continue to route. And when that depletes, you will open another,
1936
02:27:08.000 --> 02:27:11.221
private channel to that direction and close the old one because it has depleted.
1937
02:27:11.795 --> 02:27:16.055
And, you know, and you close in a way that the sets are
1938
02:27:16.515 --> 02:27:19.015
on chain ending up in your,
1939
02:27:20.120 --> 02:27:23.740
let's say, your joint market maker wallet. And it just keeps,
1940
02:27:24.360 --> 02:27:25.740
you know, coin joined away.
1941
02:27:26.120 --> 02:27:34.935
Or you can just use your whole storage as well. You don't even need to touch the on chain wallet, and you don't you won't be building up this problem with the,
1942
02:27:35.475 --> 02:27:38.375
you know, peeling chains and whatever merging
1943
02:27:38.900 --> 02:27:42.040
changes from private channels to public ones and things like that.
1944
02:27:46.695 --> 02:27:50.476
So I'm just thinking that to to minimize the advertised
1945
02:27:52.216 --> 02:27:53.115
public capacity
1946
02:27:53.655 --> 02:27:54.830
to is
1947
02:27:55.930 --> 02:27:56.430
essential
1948
02:27:56.890 --> 02:27:57.550
to be
1949
02:27:58.570 --> 02:28:00.830
safe as possible. Right? So,
1950
02:28:02.395 --> 02:28:07.135
you know, these no nodes which are efficient routing nodes might have, you know, multiples
1951
02:28:07.515 --> 02:28:08.654
of shadow capacity,
1952
02:28:09.194 --> 02:28:11.295
but, you know, you and me,
1953
02:28:11.650 --> 02:28:12.311
we'll never
1954
02:28:12.850 --> 02:28:16.630
1955
02:28:17.010 --> 02:28:17.510
method
1956
02:28:18.130 --> 02:28:24.145
is is is you don't run a routing node. I mean, you're you're changing your lightning node every 2 months or something.
1957
02:28:24.605 --> 02:28:25.585
You're just constantly
1958
02:28:26.630 --> 02:28:31.370
closing out your node and and moving to a I mean, and on chain fees aren't that high,
1959
02:28:31.830 --> 02:28:32.569
so whatever.
1960
02:28:33.270 --> 02:28:35.370
Close out your node, coin join,
1961
02:28:35.795 --> 02:28:38.135
move to a new node, new pub key.
1962
02:28:39.395 --> 02:28:40.694
1963
02:28:41.074 --> 02:28:42.774
if you have doxed your pub key,
1964
02:28:43.101 --> 02:28:48.320
1965
02:28:50.035 --> 02:29:09.426
1966
02:29:10.285 --> 02:29:18.460
that's what you can do. So someone pays through you. So you so you need to have roughly like 50 50 percent of your overall balance
1967
02:29:20.360 --> 02:29:22.985
to be your overall capacity need to be
1968
02:29:23.785 --> 02:29:24.846
on the distant
1969
02:29:25.945 --> 02:29:34.670
side and on the local side. So you don't want to have you don't want to receive payments because that that would reduce your ability to route payments.
1970
02:29:35.850 --> 02:29:38.270
1971
02:29:40.170 --> 02:29:42.350
Hey. Listen. What do you know what it stands for?
1972
02:29:43.515 --> 02:29:46.095
He made up something. It's balance of satoshis,
1973
02:29:46.395 --> 02:29:53.770
but it really stands for Bosworth. Like, who do you think we are? Like, we know we know it stands to your name. It it'd be like if Odell
1974
02:29:54.070 --> 02:29:55.850
like, I just I don't know.
1975
02:29:56.550 --> 02:30:01.130
Of the I I can't think of it on the spot, but if I tried to come up with some fucking bullshit.
1976
02:30:01.944 --> 02:30:06.104
1977
02:30:07.225 --> 02:30:14.729
1978
02:30:16.630 --> 02:30:18.985
1979
02:30:22.165 --> 02:30:27.510
Mhmm. VAS score isn't as bad as Odell's score for privacy. It's a very good take. I appreciate you guys.
1980
02:30:27.990 --> 02:30:32.410
Yeah. We know we know Suheb. We know he's called balance of Satoshi. I appreciate Suheb being here.
1981
02:30:33.029 --> 02:30:34.810
So Taylor of my boys.
1982
02:30:35.235 --> 02:30:40.136
1983
02:30:42.250 --> 02:30:45.450
1984
02:30:47.290 --> 02:30:52.155
bases your, like, whether or not someone goes with you based off your boss score.
1985
02:30:52.636 --> 02:30:53.136
Pool.
1986
02:30:54.315 --> 02:30:55.615
What? Pool,
1987
02:30:56.155 --> 02:30:56.976
1988
02:30:58.155 --> 02:30:59.615
1989
02:31:00.131 --> 02:31:01.830
1990
02:31:02.290 --> 02:31:09.005
1991
02:31:09.385 --> 02:31:10.525
1992
02:31:11.145 --> 02:31:18.990
1993
02:31:20.010 --> 02:31:20.830
and fees,
1994
02:31:21.930 --> 02:31:22.430
to,
1995
02:31:22.970 --> 02:31:28.556
you know, how to construct the payment routes and things. And, I mean, you know, yes. I I mean, I do agree
1996
02:31:29.176 --> 02:31:32.795
I mean, I would prefer to have, like, an open source scoring system as well, but also
1997
02:31:33.990 --> 02:31:38.410
the argument is if it would be fully open source, then it would be easily gameable.
1998
02:31:38.950 --> 02:31:47.645
So, I mean, you know, pool is a gameable But that's why Bitcoin exists. Right? Like, this is a ridiculous bullshit argument. Right? But pool is a centralized service, and you don't need to use it.
1999
02:31:48.105 --> 02:31:51.005
2000
02:31:52.010 --> 02:31:52.750
I mean
2001
02:31:54.729 --> 02:32:00.670
I mean, if if if we were just gonna stand with this idea that, like, you cannot create a game a nongamable,
2002
02:32:02.125 --> 02:32:02.625
verifiable
2003
02:32:03.006 --> 02:32:04.705
network, then we wouldn't have Bitcoin.
2004
02:32:06.686 --> 02:32:07.186
Right?
2005
02:32:07.886 --> 02:32:08.785
Yeah. Yeah.
2006
02:32:09.280 --> 02:32:11.940
Well, yeah. I mean, it's Oh, he figured it out. 6102
2007
02:32:12.400 --> 02:32:16.420
figured it out. Odell, one dude's expensive lightning lessons.
2008
02:32:17.636 --> 02:32:20.295
2009
02:32:20.755 --> 02:32:22.775
2010
02:32:25.561 --> 02:32:27.580
Yo, Freaks, I love you guys.
2011
02:32:27.881 --> 02:32:45.721
I appreciate you guys. I love interacting with you live. I mean, I just just for the Freaks that are here live and and to the podcasters that are here, just I just wanna let you know we have, like, 70 freaks here. We have, like, 80 freaks here paying attention. We're, like, in a small close knit, like, little fuck around group,
2012
02:32:46.500 --> 02:32:50.601
just watching the price of Bitcoin on our our favorite exchange and then also Coinbase,
2013
02:32:52.155 --> 02:33:03.550
2014
02:33:04.010 --> 02:33:05.630
2015
02:33:06.010 --> 02:33:22.570
I I'm if if the freaks aren't gonna pump this shit to 50 k on bisque, like, are they really freaks? Like, last week, that's what we had. So, I mean, I I just wonder, like, with the lack of liquidity there, like, if you're if you're if you're not pumping that price, are you really a freak? Yeah. Freaks think about it. It's economically,
2016
02:33:23.910 --> 02:33:28.570
2017
02:33:29.025 --> 02:33:33.686
is, as percentage is smaller percent than what it would cost to CoinJoin,
2018
02:33:34.785 --> 02:33:59.430
2019
02:34:00.930 --> 02:34:05.030
And he named that after himself and then pretended it was balance of Satoshis. Right?
2020
02:34:08.615 --> 02:34:12.155
2021
02:34:12.775 --> 02:34:13.275
code
2022
02:34:13.851 --> 02:34:23.855
pretty much, you know. So it is just something they used to put the nodes into 2 tiers. That is tier 0 and tier 1. And to have some kind of guarantee to,
2023
02:34:25.676 --> 02:34:32.051
be able to have a useful channel, by default, you are buying channels from tier 1, which is
2024
02:34:32.511 --> 02:34:40.851
the, you know, all the nodes who have ever made to the top 300 of the roughly of the boss score, but it's it's not really,
2025
02:34:41.615 --> 02:34:42.755
so they can arbitrarily
2026
02:34:43.135 --> 02:34:50.835
put a node to tier 1 if they want because that's a database which should manage by lighting labs and and their and their pool server.
2027
02:34:53.440 --> 02:34:56.580
So, I mean, that that that's how it is used, but it is not very
2028
02:34:56.960 --> 02:35:00.820
significant. And and there is a comment. Again, Anthony says that none of his
2029
02:35:02.755 --> 02:35:10.695
is is Tor only notes didn't make it to to the BOS score. Well, I don't even know how to run a a node on Clearnet. All my notes are on
2030
02:35:12.250 --> 02:35:16.351
on tour only, and they have all made it to the bus score
2031
02:35:16.891 --> 02:35:18.351
bus list just
2032
02:35:18.766 --> 02:35:19.985
for, you know
2033
02:35:20.525 --> 02:35:22.785
maybe I'm on the same Telegram channel as,
2034
02:35:23.245 --> 02:35:27.506
2035
02:35:28.640 --> 02:35:32.820
2036
02:35:34.240 --> 02:35:36.900
2037
02:35:37.465 --> 02:35:40.364
2038
02:35:41.305 --> 02:35:44.730
but I don't think it's a big issue, and I hope that they will get rid of it,
2039
02:35:46.011 --> 02:35:47.950
even to be used in pool
2040
02:35:48.330 --> 02:35:52.910
or or just, you know, someone should make up a better scoring system.
2041
02:35:53.745 --> 02:35:57.665
2042
02:35:59.345 --> 02:36:05.370
Listen. We're gonna watch it, and then I'm gonna game the fuck out of it. What was what was my favorite acronym of it?
2043
02:36:05.909 --> 02:36:09.930
2044
02:36:10.815 --> 02:36:12.275
2045
02:36:14.095 --> 02:36:16.675