July 7, 2022
CD69: decentralized identifiers (DIDs), "web5," and lightning privacy with tony
EPISODE: 69
BLOCK: 743883
PRICE: 4918 sats per dollar
TOPICS: decentralized identifiers, credentials, tradeoffs, "web5" proposal, lightning privacy work, unannounced channels, probing, the next week of dispatch is loaded
https://citadeldispatch.com/cd69
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06:47 - Decentralized identifiers (DIDs)
10:28 - Benefits and concerns of DIDs
38:07 - Use cases and potential impact of DIDs
43:31 - IPFS and content addressability
44:38 - Challenges of decentralized storage systems
46:10 - Integrity of files on IPFS and the role of the Bitcoin chain
01:19:29 - Unannounced channels and their purpose
01:20:08 - Zero confirmation channels or SCID aliases
01:22:44 - Finding unannounced channels and their significance
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:24:53 PM
Duration: 5621.238
Channels: 1
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Happy Bitcoin Wednesday, freaks.
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It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.
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Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech
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coming from you live from the studio with a repeat guest here. Very excited. But before we get to that, I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show using podcasting 2 point o apps
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and our BTC pay server located at sill dispatch.com.
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Sill dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsored,
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focused purely on actual discussion. That would not be possible without you.
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When it comes to the podcasting 2 point o apps, my two favorites are Fountain Podcasts
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and Breeze Wallet.
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You simply
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load it up with some sats,
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search it'll dispatch, press the subscribe button, choose how many sats you want to stream to the show.
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And then as
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stats per minute, you wanna stream to the show. And then as you listen,
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it will stream stats directly to my note.
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Just a little warning. If you use Fountain Podcast, it is a custodial wallet, so do not load it with
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too much money
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because you have to trust them. Well, actually, you trust lnpay.co,
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which is the custodial pry provider they use.
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The show is also supported using a feature called boosts. Boost
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allow you to well, Boostagrams
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allow you to send a
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onetime payment and include a message with it. As always, I will be reading the top boost from the previous episode,
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to shout out the freaks who continue to support us.
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Since last episode,
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I have changed
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the set split
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on the show. So
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you were already supporting
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dispatch, and you're already supporting open source development through OpenSats.
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But now, also, direct funding will go to the no bullshit Bitcoin audience funded news desk, the raspipe blitz dev fund, the robo sats dev fund, the seed signer dev fund,
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the Zeus lightning wallet dev fund, and podcast index.org.
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So when you support dispatch, you don't only keep this show ad free and sponsor free, but you also directly support other community
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funded Bitcoin projects, which is pretty cool. It's kind of almost like a reverse sponsorship.
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So I'm pretty excited about that. I've been told by the various podcasting 2.0 teams
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that I've had
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I'm pushing the splits
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to their limit. It is the most splits for a podcasting 2.0 podcast.
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And as a result,
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they told me the boost might be slower, but I like pushing the limits. So we will see how it goes. You freaks test out the boost, and we'll reassess next week if I have to remove some projects. But I'd actually like to add some projects, so, hopefully, that's not the case.
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Let's get to reading the top boost.
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We have the highest boost dispatch has ever gotten from athut.
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He says, internal gratitude, Matt.
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Can't tell you the impact you've had.
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Much love to you. Stay humble. If you make it to Vancouver Island, I have a bottle of whiskey with your name on that.
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That also goes to all plebs listening. Shout out to Hut for 210,000
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sats.
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We have our boy, Chad Farrow, who gave 10,000 sats without a message. I think he was testing out if the splits worked, and they did.
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We have CA Danner saying,
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MBK is never boring.
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She's awesome. She's actually got some artwork in Bitcoin Park, that we have up on display and available for sale, which is pretty cool.
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We also have Roughneck Miner coming in at 10,000 sats. Always great signal coming from the dispatch. If you're ever in North Dakota, hit me up. I'd be happy to host you and any others you bring to all the ND Bitcoiners. Let's get a meet up going.
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So those are some of the top boostograms.
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What's pretty cool is if you open fountain podcasts
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or other podcasting 2 point o apps, you can see all the boostograms yourself,
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in their entirety.
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Also, huge shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat, both on Matrix and through Twitter
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and Twitch.
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I know I told you, Freaks,
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that I heard from a lot of you that you wanted a YouTube stream.
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I did attempt
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to upload all the the whole archive of Ciel dispatch and start streaming onto YouTube as well to give you that option,
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but they banned my account saying that it promoted scams, spams,
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and deceptive content.
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So don't hold your breath on that one. I did press that appeal button, but they can go fuck themselves.
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You can obviously watch the show on Twitch, as I said, bitcoin tv.com.
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I'm also posting the archives to Rumble and Telegram,
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and you can listen in any podcasting app. My favorite that's not podcasting 2.0 is antennapod by just searching
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CITIL dispatch
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in that app. If you do not have stats to spare, it does help the show if you press the subscribe button, leave a review. Thank you. I do appreciate it.
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Okay. With all that out of the way, I know it's a little bit slower this time, but we've been having a fun day here at Bitcoin Park,
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so my mind is a little bit all over the place.
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We have good friend, ride or die freak, and repeat guest, Tony here in the studio. How's it going, Tony? Let's fucking go.
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I'm really great. This is
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kind of incredible what you guys have got here. You know, I was in Nashville, I guess, last,
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4 or 5 months ago.
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You guys had a solid operation. I was impressed even back then. And,
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yeah, let me just say this is pretty amazing.
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While Tony is in here, he's also looking at one of the other cofounders of Bitcoin Park, Rod. If you heard
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a door close and chairs moving, that was Rod being extremely loud as we started the podcast. That's also why I was a little bit distracted.
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This room is extremely soundproofed, but it does not account for Rod entering
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while we are starting the recording.
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Hello, Rod.
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Anyway, guys, so what are we gonna talk about today? We're gonna talk about decentralized identifiers, formerly called, often called DIDs. We're gonna talk about this concept of Web 5 that was proposed by Block,
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formerly Square, and we're gonna talk about lightning privacy. Tony was actually on the show
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for dispatch
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21. I think we we spent over 2 hours specifically on Lightning Privacy. So if you haven't listened to that, consider listening to that after this dispatch.
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Tony has the honor of having both episode 21 69.
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Completely coincidence too. I did not plan this. And you have a couple others. There was one, that I just
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shield today that was 57, which was the crowdfunding one, which I thought was really good. Yeah. I met, Sat Sail in Austin for a hackathon,
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like, 2 weeks ago.
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We just randomly stumbled into each other. I was like, hey. You were Tony on Citadel Dispatch. Right? We had never met each other in in person. He's I still haven't met him yet. He was, like, locked in Australia for a while. Apparently, he got out and made it to Austin.
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So it was kinda beautiful to be, like, wow. Okay.
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You know, I I don't get the honor of having, you know, so many podcasts. So, like, every now and then,
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someone will come up to me. It's kinda surreal. They'll be, like, yeah. You're you're Tony. Right? You're you're on Citadel Dispatch Let's fucking go. All the time.
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And it's kind of an honor. It's kinda crazy to see, like, especially on the topic of privacy. You probably get this way more,
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and quite often, but, like, just normal people that care about privacy coming up to you and saying thank you for your work and privacy.
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It's surreal, honestly. It makes it all worth it. Yep.
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Especially since when you publicly talk about privacy, you hurt your own privacy.
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Yeah, exactly.
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It's not easy. It's like the privacy paradox, right? Like, the more you know, you have to lose and the information you leak out, but then you're still doing it anyways. It's like this, paradox inside your head,
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kind of fucks with you a little bit sometimes.
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100%.
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So just to the freaks, I mean, I know we're all still getting used to me deviating
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from the usual dispatch schedule rather than every Tuesday. We are doing,
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whenever I have good guests that are in person in the studio because I like the in person rips.
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We actually have a massive meetup.
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Looks like over 200 people are gonna be here next week,
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including a huge contingent from the Austin side.
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So just you know,
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I don't know if you wanna use Twitch. I don't really wanna tell you to get a Twitch account. It is controlled by Amazon.
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But if you join our matrix channel, which you can go to at citildispatch.com,
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and click the chat button. I will notify people when we go live,
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try and give you some heads up,
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but there's gonna be a lot of fucking rips over the next
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week and a half because so many people are gonna be in town. It's just gonna kinda be nonstop. I'm gonna overload you.
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And then there might be a little bit of a break after that because I'm going to Colorado for the beef initiative to do
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to help ranchers learn how to use Bitcoin and for them to help me become a wannabe rancher.
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So I'm pretty excited about that. I think I will have a mobile recording set up, so there might be some seal dispatches during that. But just, anyway, I just wanna give you a heads up that there's gonna be a bunch of dispatches. Go through them at your leisure in your favorite podcasting app. Join us in the live chat. However you wanna do that, you do that.
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Okay. So with all that said, Tony
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and, also, I imagine Tony is gonna pee on a lot of those too, so get used to his voice.
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Tony, so decentralized identifiers,
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DIDs,
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they get a lot of hype.
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I know you're pretty bullish on them. You wanna you wanna give us your best shill? Why should we care? Yeah.
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You know, I'll I'll say right ahead.
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You know, this this isn't exactly the hill I wanna die on on decentralized identifiers. He's dying on this hill. I'm dying on this hill right now. But,
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honestly, like, I see it more as a means to an end.
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As as far as, like, progressing
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towards a more decentralized web, a real decentralized web, none of that crypto bullshit.
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I don't, like, quite care exactly how we get there and exactly how it looks like. I know there's a lot of different options, a lot of different proposals, some competing, some not.
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But all that said, I do I am pretty bullish on decentralized identifiers, and I think,
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you know, there's some trade offs. But I think all in all,
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there's a Diz get a lot of hate too because they You did get a lot of hate? They get a lot of hate. I thought I was the only one that I'm a I'm a little bit skeptical. No.
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I I see a lot, and the common thing I always hear is the fact that they think the government's gonna have, like, a new world order and, like, dudes are gonna be You see it. Identities and This is the problem. Like, I had a very long, great conversation with Tony the other day, and he's just preempting
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my talking points. But, anyway, continue.
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No. I mean, that's like the number one thing I hear, and it's it's honestly like valid points. But I guess, yeah, I guess we are jumping into some of the weeds there in in Yeah. Give us the basic shit. Why should people care? You should care. What the fucker did? Yeah. So their own your their your own identity.
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No one controls them. No one
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except for you. No one else controls them.
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That'd be pretty bad if you didn't control them. Yeah. You just there's a bunch of IDs out there. You don't even you can't even touch them.
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Only you control them.
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They allow you to
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interact with other decentralized identities as well.
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You can spin up a whole bunch of decentralized entities too, so it's not like your own, like, single,
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digital identity that, like, tracks you and, you know, you have to use 1 did to sign in to every services. So it's, there are some privacy benefits to using decentralized identifiers at its core.
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It's not just like one big surveillance network and one big, you know, ID tracking system.
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But really it's just for being able to coordinate with other other people that have DIDs, be able to chat with them, communication,
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access their services that they may offer.
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And you can have a whole array of self sovereign identity stacks, like, on your own Raspberry Pi. You can have it redundantly also in various clouds too. Like, I mean, you stream to both,
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Bitcoin TV,
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and and and YouTube and and other Not to YouTube. Not to YouTube right now. Yeah. Twitch, Twitter, bitcoin tv.com.
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Exactly. And you do that so in case one goes down or one gets censored, you have backups. Right? Well, the whole that concept can also apply to dits as well.
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So I consider it more of just like, you know, represents a person, but it doesn't,
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you know, that's not the whole picture. You can spin up a whole bunch of identities, and you'll you control them all, and no one no one can take that away from you. So I guess if we're gonna talk about DIDs, which
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I mean, their IDs. So we should start with
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what are what is our current ID process? Right. Right?
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Which is
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we are we literally you go to your local government,
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and you get permission from them, and they give you this document usually in the form of a card.
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And
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you, you know, you have to go through whatever identity procedures they require from you.
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They take a picture of you. They put it on the card, yadayada yada.
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So
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when you have those IDs,
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then you try and interact with digital services.
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And they
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if they require ID verification, they do
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the standard KYC procedure that a lot of Bitcoiners
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have turned a blind eye on but have gotten used to, which is, you know, upload your your passport or your driver's license,
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maybe take a selfie,
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put in your address, your email, your phone number, Social Security number,
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firstborn child's blood type.
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You gotta go through that whole procedure, and then they do their own, like, fraud thing on the side
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to try and prove that that's actually you because there's there is a shit ton of fraud that fakes the KYC system, or they use stolen credentials, or they use bought credentials. People don't realize there's, like, marketplaces where you can just buy ID information for these KYC services or already KYC'd accounts.
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So with with digital IDs, the promise is
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a more open system
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or decentralized identities
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in general. But I I guess, I like calling them digital IDs, but I guess it's not as,
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Yeah. Because digital IDs can mean that Centralized. It's it's centralized. Right? Like, it's the government's database of an ID for you. Right. So at at its core,
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decentralized ID is
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I like to think of it as, like, a public key, private key pair similar to your Bitcoin keys,
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that you and only you control
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that can be cryptographically verified,
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like ownership of a Bitcoin key can without giving up control of it. So it can be instantly proven that you actually have control of this ID.
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And then
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the way I understand the main proposal for it, which is coming out
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of block now, formerly Square, but previously
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at Microsoft during their ion project because
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the lead dev CSU Wildcat went from Microsoft to Block, but I guess there's a bit of a partnership there,
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is so you then you have that base layer
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decentralized
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ID,
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and then different participants
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can sign
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proof from their own ID
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that
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you are who you say you are or
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a different information about you. Right? So they can,
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and that could be Tony signing mine saying, like, Matt's a good dude, or that could be the New York government saying, Matt's a resident of New York,
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or that could be Facebook saying,
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Matt's a Facebook user, and this is an account.
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Or it could be
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any type of service.
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Airbnb could say, you know, Matt has rented this many Airbnbs,
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and he's always been great or whatever.
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And different services can choose
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how much weight they put for those different identifier,
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different
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signatures. Is that would you agree with that? Yeah. And a large part of of what you described too is,
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even a separate system in in and of itself.
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All of the stuff around this person says this thing about another person,
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all of that is along the lines of verifiable credentials.
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That's actually how I got my start in the Bitcoin space back in 2018.
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Joining some of these w three communities
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and
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working at a company where that was our bread and butter just to verify what credential aspect. And it and it really is. It's it's not you don't need deeds
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for verifiable credentials, so that's why it came out first.
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There's been previous,
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you know, ID system, like like Open Badges and and a few others that are you know, could be centralized or not.
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Verifiable credentials in and of itself are not opinionated about
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what kind of ID you use to represent a person. So much of what you kinda had said there is on the verifiable credential side, but they work hand in hand with digital identities because
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exactly or decentralized identities exactly for that reason because you may not actually have any other information about a decentralized identity
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besides, like, some very basic information such as keys.
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There's you can the cool thing is you can list many different keys inside your digital your decentralized identity.
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All it is really is and it's so funny too when I hear people get scared of DIDs and the way it's heading. It's literally just a process for taking an ID. So, like, did colon something colon 12345.
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Taking that and getting a JSON document out of it. And then that JSON document has common properties such as,
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a list of public keys, and it could be any public you know, it can support many different types of public keys too for different crypto. Like, you know, some keys are meant more for signing, some keys are meant for for encryption.
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You can delegate those keys too so you can have you can say this key is, like, my master key. It can do all the things like delegation, authentication, authorization, and I think there's a few other property types for keys and, capabilities.
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Or you can have one key that, like, you keep on your mobile phone and that, you know, that's good for logging in to websites or something. So you have a list of different keys. So it's not just like one key,
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which actually kinda makes things simple. You can, like, scatter keys across all your devices,
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but then you can also have,
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a list of services that you support. And to me, that's the big one. I often get, like, what's the difference between PGP and DIDS? Like, you know, you take a key and it represents an identity.
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And I I think And we've had PGP keys forever. Exactly. And I think there's 2 main
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2 big distinctions to me that really
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changes the game is the fact that you could have a process, like, they call it a did method, but you could have a process for taking an ID, a certain type of ID, DID,
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and turning that into adjacent document, and everyone across the world sees the same picture.
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And, you know, there's this, Bitcoin based,
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that caught eye on as as you kinda said Microsoft had kinda started with
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Daniel started it under Microsoft.
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I think most people from Microsoft working on that project or around that project has have actually left. It was way more than just Daniel too. I think they I think they all scattered after that,
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after Microsoft started getting
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super ESG woke about Bitcoin.
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But, to me, the big distinctions are you could have the Bitcoin global state that we do have,
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through the use of Opera turns.
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And
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me and then another person on the other side of the world could have the latest state for someone's, you know, JSON document that represents
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their keys and services that they support.
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That's the big one. And then the second one is the fact that you can list services inside of your,
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identity too. And with services, I mean things like,
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communication.
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You can have, like, your Dropbox is one of your links so people can go view your public pictures if they wanted to.
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Literally any service, and that's just kinda why I love Dids too. It's, like, not opinionated.
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You can have literally any app and service that you have on the Internet today could fit inside the DIT model because you've listed as a service endpoint.
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And then some of the web 5 stuff that they're working on too is even abstracts that further. So, like, there's so many different applications you can build on top of it just from the fact that you have,
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you can resolve the ID
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from anywhere.
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And and, you know, if you're using Ion, you know, you just need access to public Bitcoin blockchain,
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and then the fact that you have keys and services listed inside of that document. And from there, you can do communication and anything else, and you can do public key, you know, cryptography and encryption and signing,
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just from those,
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3 You can send messages. You can do file transfer.
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The
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so the way I look at Dids,
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I would not say I'm I said earlier, maybe I'm a skeptic. I wouldn't say I'm a skeptic.
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I'm I think someone needs to push back on the hype a little bit
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because,
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and that doesn't mean I'm not bullish on dids. It doesn't mean I don't want dids. I think they are a
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massive improvement on how current identity is handled.
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But the way I look at it is actually similar to the way I look at Bitcoin, which I'm extremely bullish on. Right? Like, I've dedicated my life
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to working in the Bitcoin space, right, and supporting
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Bitcoin projects and and working on education and whatnot,
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which is that it's a tool,
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but, ultimately, it depends on how you use that tool.
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And the way I look at Bitcoin is I do think a large
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majority of people
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will end up using Bitcoin
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in a very compliant,
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permissioned
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way using centralized
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regulated parties.
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And with Dids,
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I see a similar trajectory where I see
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people using DIDS that are signed by Facebook, people using DIDS that are signed by whatever government,
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they are subject to. Right? And
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the concern I have is that with Bitcoin,
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we have
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the the financial surveillance mechanisms
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are already in place
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in all standard digital
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payment methods. Right? You use Venmo. You use PayPal. You use your credit card. You use your bank.
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They're completely surveilled and tracked. They're sold to countless third parties,
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data brokers.
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They're leaked.
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They're shared with governments. Like, financial surveillance Panopticon is already here. So people use Bitcoin in a financially surveilled way,
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you know, it that's a continuation of the status quo, but at least
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a minority of people
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can learn, educate,
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take control themselves, and use Bitcoin in a private way.
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With Dids, my concern is
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that we're speeding up this Panopticon
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digital ID because we're setting up a robust system
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where, you know,
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a government just simply needs to, like,
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bolt into the system, or Facebook simply needs to bolt into the system, and they have it all ready to go.
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What do you think about that concern? Is that like, is that a real concern? Or Oh,
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am I just being contrarian for contrarian sake? It's a concern, but it's also true, and it's also
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already happening.
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Some of the
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it's funny. Some of the biggest funders of a lot of decentralized identity projects and verifiable credential projects
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are actually the DHS themselves.
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Department of Homeland Security. Yep. Their Silicon Valley initiative where they
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kind of throw money at startups, don't take any equity, they just throw money at startups and ask them to solve different problems, and they'll have,
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like, a use case that they're trying to solve. So as early back, I think, as 2019,
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they've been funding some of these projects
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around verifiable credentials and decentralized
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identity. So it's already happening, and they've already,
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I've been in on some of those meetings too. And the the, you know, one of the times that we all kinda ask the question, I'm like, okay, so, you know, we're doing a lot of like DID development and we're trying to create this interoperable system here.
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You know, what what,
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Blockchain or or, you know, application type do you want, to kinda see your,
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some of your use cases. And
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the answer we got back from that was basically, oh,
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the government will run the identities for everyone. Right. They just want the interoperability,
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and they want the ecosystem. They want all the hard work that the government doesn't do.
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And then they want us to build that, and then they're gonna interoperate with it, because everything's already using it. So
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what you bring up is a concern because it is actually literally what's happening.
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Do I think that we shouldn't still do it anyways because
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any good tech, if it's actually good tech, can be used for evil as well.
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But I think you have a point in, like, are we accelerating that,
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too fast?
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But the alternative would be, okay, if we go too slow,
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then they're just gonna roll out a a comp I mean
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So, I mean, like, the perfect example is we literally went through,
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the last 2 years
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was an attempt to attack the movement of individuals around the world Yep.
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In the in the name of COVID response. Right? They had what has essentially amounted to movement licenses,
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in these in these new
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health passports. Right?
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And the way they chose to implement that,
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you know, the most powerful government on Earth, the US government,
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chose to print out paper index cards
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and have you write your name down. And, you know,
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I my understanding is that
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it was a felony to fake them,
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so no one should, you know, go out and break the law.
344
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But
345
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a lot of people fake them. They were very easy to fake. And they were just basically relying on that scare tactic of if you get caught, like, we're gonna throw the book at you and make an example of you.
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If there was a robust protocol
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ready to go for them on DIDS.
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They would a 100% do it. Right? They would a 100% have used the DIDS instead. And in fact, it was actually kind of sickening.
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I was in transition out of the job that I was using verifiable credentials and DIDs for. And actually, I was in progress of working with some of the, DHS people,
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at that time. And whenever some of whenever COVID happened,
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immediately,
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so many people from the w three c community were, like, posted on the mailing list. Oh, here's how we can apply COVID
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vax passes to decentralized identities and verifiable credentials. And, like, overnight,
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I saw, like, startups launch their, like, web page about how they're gonna do tracking to walk into a grocery store,
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using Dids. And they're like, oh, this is this is using this technology. And it made me fucking sick. It made me so sick. I was like, fuck this community.
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I ever I can't believe everyone's going along with it. This is literally surveillance. This is literally what we're trying to stop, and the argument at the time was sort of like well, this we're just letting people choose.
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Right. We're giving people options. We're giving people options. At least they can own some of their data. At least they can hold on to one of their keys. It could be worse. It could be worse.
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But, yeah, it it it they would a 100% use it, and they would try. And if there's already an interoperable system in place, they're gonna use it. But it's like, if we don't build it right now, they're gonna build a very shitty deep digital identity
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version of it. And I don't know. Maybe we can kind of go along,
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you know, quite far before they catch up to some of the innovation and some of the self sovereign stacks that we can build in the meantime. Because I mean, rolling something out at scale, like right now okay. Let's say the did spec, I think it just got recommended,
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last week,
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as a w three c recommendation. I think it finally went through.
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Okay. Let's all start now. Let's see what we can build in a year or 2.
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And I bet you we beat out the government. So it's like, let's see, let's see what cool stuff we can build in the meantime.
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Are they still gonna use it? Yes. But, you know, China doesn't need
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decentralized a decentralized identity spec to be doing
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some digital ID rollout over there. So it's like they're gonna do it regardless.
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At least let's hold hold one of the keys.
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You know, and maybe fight back. I might joke a little bit, but, you know So, I mean, first of all, I have two things there.
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And and freaks, this whole conversation isn't gonna be on dibs.
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The
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first off,
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it's it's unfortunate that that YouTube
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banned the dispatch channel after 5 days for
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supposedly promoting scams. Was that after the Monero one? Because
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because I didn't know
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that we were gonna be talking about vaccine passports, so they would have definitely banned the account,
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once that's this stream went live anyway. Oh, yeah. So, anyway, YouTube can go fuck themselves. But,
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and I'm sorry, freaks, for those freaks that prefer YouTube. It is what it is. I press the appeal button.
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Don't hold your breath. The second thing is, do you see a lot of
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there's definitely some I mean, I've never been in the verifiable
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credential community, but there's definitely a lot of similarities there with what we see in Bitcoin, where you see, like, the people that are like, oh, we need regulatory clarity or, you know, AOPP.
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Like, the address verification method is just an option. It just makes it easier for users. It's opt in. They don't have to do it. Like, we see a lot of that
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in the Bitcoin community as well.
385
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Yeah.
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There's a lot of parallels there between Dids and Bitcoin. Like, it's a tool. It's an open protocol.
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It's how you use it.
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Stakeholders will have different opinions on And honestly, it's it's it's kind of beautiful to see. Right? Because that means it's, I guess a non partisan issue like that both sides can appreciate
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what it could give
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each side. So
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the people that are actually for
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more regulation and enforcement,
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they may like it because now instead of taking a picture of a fake ID and uploading it to some service and having them, like, do a check you know, have another service process whether or not that image was
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authenticate,
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like, authentic or not,
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We get better we could get better in enforcement on the regulation,
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the regulations that do exist, like driver's license and stuff like that. You know? Not, I guess,
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not all and maybe this is the hill I die die on, but, like, maybe not all like you're dying on this side. Regulations.
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Like, I'm not saying we should have zero regulations ever, like, e even under an anarchy system. What regulations do you agree with? I don't know.
400
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Being older than 10 years old at least to to drive a car, I mean, like, there's, you know, maybe some loose level regulations that we have. Maybe better state enforcement
401
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instead of federal enforcement, but, you know, maybe I don't know.
402
00:32:44.265 --> 00:32:46.845
You know, maybe we should If you disagree with Tony's,
403
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opinion with Tony. Maybe we should driver's regulations,
404
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make sure you you leave a note in the boostograms.
405
00:32:53.429 --> 00:32:53.830
Yeah.
406
00:32:54.309 --> 00:32:55.830
But then on the reverse side,
407
00:32:56.309 --> 00:33:11.650
it is a tool for be for people to be able to have a lot like, how many times have you logged into a website and you hated the fact that you had to provide a email at all? Like, you know, I Right. I hate that. It's hard to even get a private email. I mean, Twitter is a perfect example. It's the only social media I use.
408
00:33:13.865 --> 00:33:17.085
Like, Twitter basically requires soft k y c
409
00:33:17.465 --> 00:33:18.205
in that,
410
00:33:18.745 --> 00:33:27.980
first of all, you need an email. It's hard to get an email that's not attached to your identity. And a lot of times, they'll lock your account if you don't have a phone number, and it's hard to get a phone number without identity.
411
00:33:28.485 --> 00:33:28.985
Yeah.
412
00:33:29.765 --> 00:33:36.025
So I I think it does suck as logins. Yeah. Exactly. And then there's another thing. There's there's the,
413
00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:39.330
like, in the broader crypto community,
414
00:33:42.910 --> 00:33:54.155
we have Masaki in the comments saying use burner emails, Kek. Yeah, you can use burner emails. I'm just saying it's getting harder and harder to easily access. I mean, what if you want what if you want a service that you want to use again?
415
00:33:54.490 --> 00:34:06.615
Right. Oh, but the one time use emails, like, a lot of times Twitter will fuck you on that too, because they'll be like, we just sent an email confirmation to unlock your account. I don't have control that email anymore. But what I was gonna say is there's that company,
416
00:34:07.715 --> 00:34:14.770
what the broader crypto space is looking at is, like, there's this company that raised a shit ton of money from Anderson Horowitz and a bunch of other,
417
00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:17.650
prosurveillance
418
00:34:18.110 --> 00:34:18.930
venture capitalists,
419
00:34:19.630 --> 00:34:20.130
and
420
00:34:20.510 --> 00:34:21.010
they
421
00:34:21.714 --> 00:34:26.855
allow they have you sign in with your full financial transaction history. Like, you sign in with your ETH account.
422
00:34:27.155 --> 00:34:29.655
So, like, if you're talking about, like, dystopian shit,
423
00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:35.310
it's not just coming from the government side. Like, the private sector is also proposing even worse shit.
424
00:34:35.850 --> 00:34:37.630
I can't even like, can you imagine,
425
00:34:38.865 --> 00:34:53.155
like, who's in that meeting room that says, like, oh, like, when we sign up for our services, we should expose our full financial transaction history. Yeah. I mean, that that just comes out of the fact that, like, Ethereum has very shitty privacy, and they don't care about their users. And they actually lean into the fact that,
426
00:34:54.035 --> 00:35:06.430
you know, there's bag lists and people that are rich lists, and they hope, they hope for more proof of staking systems and stuff like that. So We had Chips Ahoy in the comments on Twitch saying, I was driving a 10 goddamn commie.
427
00:35:07.849 --> 00:35:12.565
Well, no. If you're 10, that's fine. You know? When I said older, you know, as long as you're 10 or old.
428
00:35:13.825 --> 00:35:16.244
Maybe I just said older older than the 10. I'm sorry.
429
00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:20.920
But it's,
430
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:33.525
I don't know. I mean, at least you can, I forgot what we were saying there, but at least you can kind of, like, log in to websites without, like, using some Twitter login auth or Right? You know, at least the service that you wanna log in again at some point.
431
00:35:34.005 --> 00:35:43.069
So. It sounds like a strictly better system. Right. But you could argue on both sides, but you you do see people on the left want, like, more regulations than they kind of like more regulated
432
00:35:43.575 --> 00:35:52.315
enforcement, and you can do that better with digital signatures and stuff like that. On the other hand, at least I can use a website and have some of my own identity,
433
00:35:53.240 --> 00:36:06.905
that can even live beyond that website into a different one. You know, kinda like Twitter does their off stuff, so you can have your Twitter account log in to it other way. You can do the same thing with decentralized identities too. So it's a way to kinda persist your data.
434
00:36:07.765 --> 00:36:12.160
You can even, like, interrupt your data too amongst different websites. Like, if you have,
435
00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:14.580
your data store on your server
436
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.100
at home, like, on your Raspberry Pi or something up with a list of tweets,
437
00:36:19.244 --> 00:36:29.070
you can go into like, I I love the idea of, like, dumb front ends. Like, front ends in this, like, DID world that just, like, access individual data stores and pulls them down
438
00:36:29.950 --> 00:36:39.164
and creates a beautiful UI from it, and we all compete on creating beautiful UIs and a beautiful user experience. We're all in we're all working with the same data.
439
00:36:39.704 --> 00:36:42.045
It's just about creating a better user experience,
440
00:36:42.904 --> 00:36:47.380
for that data, and that data doesn't list, that data doesn't live on AWS's
441
00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:50.980
servers and and Microsoft's servers and and all those places.
442
00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:55.145
Ideally, they live on your Raspberry Pi. But someone viewing
443
00:36:55.445 --> 00:36:56.505
your Twitter account,
444
00:36:56.805 --> 00:37:02.425
pulling tweets from your Raspberry Pi looks the exact same as me pulling, you know, Jeff Bezos'
445
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:07.819
Twitter account where he keeps his tweets on AWS. So I like the fact that we can have options,
446
00:37:08.680 --> 00:37:10.380
under a kind of DID system.
447
00:37:10.855 --> 00:37:15.035
And, you know, at least, you know, some of the options are very self sovereign friendly.
448
00:37:15.414 --> 00:37:17.835
I mean, when it comes down to it, it's you know,
449
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.660
one could argue that the Internet
450
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:24.980
brought about the greatest surveillance mechanism the world has ever seen.
451
00:37:25.935 --> 00:37:30.435
Bitcoin might bring in, you know, surveillance money for a large amount of people.
452
00:37:30.895 --> 00:37:37.850
Dids might bring in surveillance digital IDs for a a large amount of people. But, ultimately, all three allow
453
00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:41.930
sovereign individuals to take control over their lives, and
454
00:37:42.734 --> 00:37:48.755
it it empowers them. And and I I would say that most people would say that the Internet was a massive net benefit.
455
00:37:49.055 --> 00:38:01.654
I think most Bitcoiners would say that Bitcoin is a massive net benefit, and I think we will see that play out. And it's probably the same exact thing with Dits. Right? Yeah. I think so. I I think I one of the things I like to say is, like, you know, Bitcoin fixed
456
00:38:01.954 --> 00:38:03.335
the money problem. Right?
457
00:38:04.035 --> 00:38:06.775
But we still have an identity problem that we have to fix.
458
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:12.500
Like, we can't live our lives with 0 reputation anywhere and no identities, no trust
459
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:13.540
in anybody.
460
00:38:14.319 --> 00:38:15.540
I think even under
461
00:38:16.035 --> 00:38:25.335
some anarchist local economy system, you're still gonna have trust in your friends and family. If any I mean, deeds are super important in that situation. Yeah. You need to have some kind of easy
462
00:38:25.640 --> 00:38:26.140
interoperable
463
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:34.380
identity system. Right? At least world, at least Yeah, at least in this digital world. Because if you're talking like an anarchist
464
00:38:36.815 --> 00:38:38.115
world filled with citadels,
465
00:38:38.655 --> 00:38:40.275
like, you're talking about, like, local
466
00:38:40.575 --> 00:38:41.075
economies
467
00:38:41.375 --> 00:38:43.954
and all these different independent trade
468
00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.150
agreements and stuff like that. And
469
00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:49.430
you you need some kind of interoperable identity
470
00:38:49.810 --> 00:38:51.430
layer in there as well. Right?
471
00:38:51.775 --> 00:38:56.195
I mean, I think it helps, especially if you wanna interact with, I guess, people from other other citadels.
472
00:38:56.495 --> 00:39:06.320
You're still gonna probably wanna do trade with, you know, the the Austin citadels. Gonna wanna trade with the Nashville citadel. Occasionally, you guys are gonna wanna beef. We're gonna want your what you guys do here, chicken.
473
00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:14.660
We're we're gonna want your chicken. We're you know, we still need We we just launched the Tennessee beef initiative, buddy. We have a lot of beef here as well. Okay. Okay. So We don't need your beef. I'm sorry.
474
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:18.440
But, yes, there will be trade between the 2. Yeah. We need your chicken still.
475
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:22.339
We'll figure out something to give you. You must have a lot of chicken and
476
00:39:22.914 --> 00:39:26.134
Probably. But you guys have hot chicken. Yeah. Well, we can send you spices.
477
00:39:27.555 --> 00:39:32.214
But we're still gonna and especially if we're living a world without, like, the government and, like, smaller,
478
00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:34.040
privatized companies,
479
00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:39.800
you know, we're we're still gonna need a way to contact somebody else, and, hopefully, it's not always through Twitter.
480
00:39:40.375 --> 00:40:06.805
You saw now like the Supreme Court is now wanting social media history to like buy guns and have your second Well, no, the Supreme Court is not a the Supreme Court knocked down the New York law. So New York added a it looks like New York is gonna add a new law that requires social media history Right. I said that. To get a concealed carry permit. Exactly. And then that fucking sucks. We shouldn't need Facebook's permission to fucking get a gun. Well, Facebook's gonna have to sign your did in order to get a gun in there. Still gonna be some of that. You know, the whole
481
00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:15.320
the whole scenario where you go to the DMV open system. You go to the DMV, and they'll you know, under that kind of system where we still get some
482
00:40:15.905 --> 00:40:24.920
verifiable proof from the government, such as our age. You know, there's some basic things that kinda help, but, like, age and and whether you can drive and things like that. But,
483
00:40:26.040 --> 00:40:31.340
you're still gonna go to the DMV. You're in extreme status when it comes to driving. You just keep bringing it up.
484
00:40:31.904 --> 00:40:36.704
Look. I don't wanna there's a lot of idiots on the road already. Like, I've been on the road the last 2 months.
485
00:40:37.184 --> 00:40:42.510
I I don't wanna deal with, 10 year old idiots. I'm sorry, dude. I'm sorry for that guy in the comments. But,
486
00:40:43.530 --> 00:40:46.510
you're still gonna go to the DMV, but hopefully, ideally,
487
00:40:46.970 --> 00:40:48.430
I bring my own did
488
00:40:48.775 --> 00:40:52.635
with my own data and my own keys, and and it could be a Bitcoin based did.
489
00:40:53.095 --> 00:40:56.555
And I bring that to the DMV. And I said, okay. You know, I can drive,
490
00:40:56.920 --> 00:41:09.475
sign a verifiable credential, tell tell the whole world that, you know, and sign it to my DID and say that I can drive. And it doesn't and someone can go someone can walk in with Ethereum data. I don't I don't give a fuck, but they can sign their DID.
491
00:41:09.795 --> 00:41:17.839
You know, their verified credential specifying that their DID can drive. So we're still gonna have some level of proofs and attestations
492
00:41:18.220 --> 00:41:19.040
in this world,
493
00:41:19.819 --> 00:41:21.920
even from the government itself. But, ideally,
494
00:41:22.335 --> 00:41:28.995
it's from an ID that they can't just rip up and throw away. So you said this you said this term Bitcoin based did.
495
00:41:30.015 --> 00:41:30.915
The ion
496
00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:33.650
the ion proposal
497
00:41:34.109 --> 00:41:34.609
and
498
00:41:35.470 --> 00:41:38.770
what what CSU is continuing at at Block
499
00:41:39.145 --> 00:41:45.565
involve Bitcoin? How do they involve Bitcoin for the freaks? Right. So the way it kinda works, it it uses op returns,
500
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.740
but it uses them in a little bit of a different way
501
00:41:49.040 --> 00:41:51.780
where it's not just one ID per op return.
502
00:41:52.319 --> 00:42:01.855
You can do up to 10,000 different ID operations. So it could be, like, updating your ID, updating the keys or services or whatever, or it could be adding a new one or deleting 1.
503
00:42:02.580 --> 00:42:06.280
But, essentially, you can have up to 10,000 in a single Bitcoin transaction.
504
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:08.680
So that's already a huge improvement.
505
00:42:10.055 --> 00:42:14.075
But you basically do a Merkle tree hash and of of all the different
506
00:42:14.535 --> 00:42:15.275
did document,
507
00:42:15.895 --> 00:42:18.795
operations you wanna do, whether it's add or delete or update.
508
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:26.300
You hash them all together. You put that into IPFS documents. So there's a little bit of IPFS play here.
509
00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:28.220
How does IPFS work?
510
00:42:28.825 --> 00:42:39.060
I have no fucking idea. I just I don't think it's kinda works. Sorry. Continue. Yeah. It's it's some distributed hash. I know I know, Is it really robust? Like, it feels like it's not robust at all. It's it's really
511
00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:44.980
slow for most of the time for general users from So IPFS is, like, you can think of it as, like,
512
00:42:45.575 --> 00:42:50.954
a it's supposed to be a distributed Dropbox replacement. And it's content. You can use as cloud storage,
513
00:42:51.335 --> 00:42:53.994
but distribute it. And and it's really cool because,
514
00:42:54.930 --> 00:42:57.750
if all I have is a hash I'm pretty sure it's not robust.
515
00:42:58.130 --> 00:43:04.070
It's it, you know, it's it kinda works. The incentives make no sense to me. Yeah. There's there's there's,
516
00:43:04.424 --> 00:43:08.365
yeah, I can get into that in a second, but I didn't realize that DIDS are completely relying on IPFS.
517
00:43:08.744 --> 00:43:09.244
No.
518
00:43:10.345 --> 00:43:11.164
Ion is.
519
00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:18.500
Okay. So and that's another distinction too. We there's some people that say, like, oh, we don't need And by the way, IPFS stands for interplanetary
520
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:33.490
file system Yeah. Which just immediately reeks of shit coin to me. I mean, you guys were talking about interplanetary stuff last week. Yeah. But we were actually talking about between planets. It wasn't like a tech stack. Well, this could work between planets. Okay. I'm sorry. Okay. So the the cool part about,
521
00:43:34.030 --> 00:43:37.970
IPFS, and I'll I'll continue explaining a little bit more of Ion too. But,
522
00:43:38.545 --> 00:43:41.125
is that it is content addressable. So if I
523
00:43:41.505 --> 00:43:44.405
if I have a hash and it, like, represents an image,
524
00:43:44.785 --> 00:43:48.619
I can get, if anyone on IPFS is hosting that,
525
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.619
you can grab it from anyone, and you know it hasn't been altered.
526
00:43:52.975 --> 00:43:56.915
So the image you pull down from any node on the network that has it,
527
00:43:57.295 --> 00:44:06.599
you get that back. The problem is getting it from nodes that have it. If you're just like a random person and you have an IPFS file and you have it on your laptop or your node,
528
00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:11.295
and you shut it down and and, you know, go, you know, go off along your day,
529
00:44:11.755 --> 00:44:22.640
no one's gonna have access to that. Like, no one. Because you were, like, the only person hosting it. Right. So, like, as there's this whole, like, gossip system, I think, of, like, trying to figure out where the files are hosted.
530
00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:28.795
So it takes a while for a file to actually reflect it. Or you can pay some of these you can pin,
531
00:44:29.195 --> 00:44:36.175
files. You can pay some of these bigger nodes that already have that are already well connected with each other. So there's some sort of, like,
532
00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:38.099
distributed sense to it.
533
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.339
So presumably, you could keep this
534
00:44:40.640 --> 00:44:54.490
this DIV file anywhere. Right. And you'd and it's okay if, like, it can't be accessed at that point time. Right? Because you if you wanted to, I could create a did. But IPFS is, like, the easiest solution right now, at least. Yeah. And it it's at least a solution for,
535
00:44:55.190 --> 00:45:02.650
Ion currently. So they'll write and in theory, you could maybe have one where instead of an IPFS hash, if there is a better
536
00:45:03.025 --> 00:45:03.765
content addressable
537
00:45:04.464 --> 00:45:06.005
solution for hosting files,
538
00:45:06.625 --> 00:45:10.005
you write that off, return in it, but you can have the same kind of ion system,
539
00:45:10.330 --> 00:45:28.280
just not on IPFS, just on, like, I don't know, a better storage system. But the fact is, like, all decentralized storage systems kinda suck. Anyway Right. So, like, it's ION's, like, the best or sorry. IPFS is just the best we kinda got right now. There's another one. I think it's some DAG. It's called some DAG thing, I think, Synonym's doing, but,
540
00:45:28.900 --> 00:45:31.080
there's not, like, fantastic options
541
00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:40.435
for decentralized storage anyways. And then the incentives, yeah, the incentives don't really line up anyways. You can pay someone and trust that they're actually going to
542
00:45:40.735 --> 00:45:49.280
host it for you because they may decide not to or they may decide, you know, they may not be able to handle the load for how much traffic you think that file or something's gonna get.
543
00:45:50.085 --> 00:45:51.464
And that's why, like, Filecoin
544
00:45:51.924 --> 00:45:56.825
got birth, which is just it's just complete shit. Shit coin. A complete shit coin. But,
545
00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:17.050
I I I think it's fine. The incentives, like, if if if I ask, you know, Bitcoin TV to host my content and then they go away, well, all of a sudden their reputation's burned. I'm never gonna even remember again. So I think it's okay that there's some trust. Like, I may pay Bitcoin TV or I may pay someone else to host my IPFS file. There could presumably be providers
546
00:46:17.430 --> 00:46:22.224
that are getting paid probably with Sats. Yeah. And you don't need some, like, cryptographic
547
00:46:22.525 --> 00:46:39.275
atomic proof that they're gonna do it. You just say, well, if they ever stop, I'm never I'm gonna leave their And then in simple speak, where the Bitcoin chain comes in is it basically proves integrity of that file Mhmm. In the most secure ledger the world has ever seen. Right. And especially at that point in time So you're not trusting
548
00:46:40.055 --> 00:46:42.075
the hosting provider of the file
549
00:46:42.535 --> 00:46:47.515
with the integrity of the file because you can confirm it with the hash that's on chain. Exactly.
550
00:46:48.580 --> 00:47:12.600
In a cryptographically verifiable way. Yeah. And then and then if you have those IPFS files, you do have to, I think, like, unwind the Merkle tree. So you do have to, like, pull in individually But presumably, like, software can just handle all of that. Exactly. Software handles all of that, like, the root hash that is put into the opportune. Like, most did users are gonna have no idea what any of this is, is, and that's fine. Yeah. And you don't need to. And in fact, and that's, like I said, just Ion's way of doing it.
551
00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:14.540
There's, like,
552
00:47:14.935 --> 00:47:17.755
a 100 different did methods. Most of them are shit coins,
553
00:47:18.295 --> 00:47:24.319
for a way that they anchor identity to a blockchain, but you don't need a blockchain at all. That's also like a common misconception
554
00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:27.119
is that, oh, why would you spam Bitcoin's blockchain?
555
00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:34.395
Putting this on Bitcoin, you don't like, did suck. They don't, you know, we don't need identity on a blockchain. So okay, cool. You don't,
556
00:47:35.175 --> 00:47:38.234
you can have that integrity aspect super important?
557
00:47:38.560 --> 00:47:46.100
It's important. Okay. There's And they're paying a fee anyway for the transaction, so it's not spam. Yeah. It's not it's not spam. What like,
558
00:47:46.445 --> 00:47:50.465
I mean, fees are not non existent on Bitcoin. What do we care? Right.
559
00:47:51.005 --> 00:47:52.705
And and then our nodes don't,
560
00:47:53.405 --> 00:48:08.615
index op returns anyway. So it kind of it kinda saves a little bit. They don't get indexed in our TX. If fees go up on Bitcoin, then you can further optimize in the future. Right. And then right now, the cap is 10,000 operations per op return too. So you can do a lot of different,
561
00:48:09.015 --> 00:48:09.994
identity updates.
562
00:48:10.375 --> 00:48:13.194
And then maybe, you know, if the if the fees did get outrageous,
563
00:48:13.830 --> 00:48:19.210
I believe that's just like a node imp like an ion implementation. They could probably just raise that if they needed to.
564
00:48:19.750 --> 00:48:21.610
Presumably, there's some limit somewhere.
565
00:48:22.335 --> 00:48:22.994
Yeah. It's
566
00:48:23.295 --> 00:48:38.690
the reason they have that limit is because they don't want because there are IPFS files that each ion node is gonna want to hold on to. They don't have to. Each Ion node can my Ion node can decide to only store documents for my identity.
567
00:48:39.494 --> 00:48:41.994
And that's the cool thing. I can forever store
568
00:48:42.454 --> 00:48:51.259
my identity on IPFS and, like, close my laptop and, like, or maybe, like, print it off or something, or I don't know. But I could, like, close my laptop and, you know,
569
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:55.740
no one would be able if if I was the only eye on the IPFS note that had
570
00:48:56.105 --> 00:48:58.125
some of my document files on IPFS
571
00:48:58.505 --> 00:48:59.005
Right.
572
00:48:59.545 --> 00:49:03.600
If I was the only one and then I shut my laptop and and ran off,
573
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:11.060
no one would be able to resolve my DID or at least get the latest state or whatever whatever documents I was trying to access to resolve my DID.
574
00:49:11.455 --> 00:49:13.875
Those won't exist. So they won't have,
575
00:49:15.455 --> 00:49:17.715
the latest version of my DID, my identity.
576
00:49:20.839 --> 00:49:22.700
But at any point in time, I can come back
577
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.220
with the files, and I go, oh, I didn't know if I shut my laptop,
578
00:49:27.095 --> 00:49:34.315
I wouldn't be able to access my like, other people wouldn't be able to just resolve my identity. So they can, you know, they can pay to have it pinned elsewhere.
579
00:49:35.059 --> 00:49:39.960
They can have they can ask their friends. They can go to the Raspberry Pi and host their IPFS files there.
580
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:41.799
You don't even need to be running
581
00:49:42.255 --> 00:49:46.595
a full Ion node. You just need to have access you just need to know what IPFS files
582
00:49:46.975 --> 00:49:56.220
that are so you can have your identity. I can host yours. You can host mine. Exactly. We could be ID buddies. Right. So as it currently stands, Ion nodes will just
583
00:49:56.600 --> 00:50:00.140
So they're mostly using IPFS as, like, an interoperable standard.
584
00:50:00.495 --> 00:50:03.535
You're not actually relying on the robustness of the system because you could have
585
00:50:04.095 --> 00:50:09.315
Right. And you could have, like, kind of uncle Jim networks Right. And friends and family, like,
586
00:50:09.700 --> 00:50:11.559
group holding each other's ID
587
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:21.484
state. Right. And even if only, like, your local community can resolve your DID, at least, you know, at least that, you know, works. But as it currently stands,
588
00:50:21.785 --> 00:50:22.925
all Ion nodes
589
00:50:23.545 --> 00:50:27.579
do actually save all IPFS files to their storage,
590
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:28.780
that make
591
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:42.664
up Ion identities. Okay. So the problem I said were, like, I create an Ion data and I close my laptop and run away. Now no one can resolve it. That's not a problem right now because because each ion node's keeping a copy. Exactly. But presumably, if we hit, you know,
592
00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:46.450
a 1000000000 people or something, that's gonna be prohibitively expensive.
593
00:50:46.910 --> 00:50:50.130
Right. And I I believe they have done some numbers before,
594
00:50:50.875 --> 00:50:53.855
and they've arrived at, like, some worst case scenarios,
595
00:50:54.395 --> 00:50:56.575
in the orders of magnitude of terabytes.
596
00:50:58.550 --> 00:51:09.964
But some of their models that's like, I think it's unlike I mean, that's not horrible. Right? It's not the worst thing in the world. If it if if you say, like, you know, a few a few terabytes can have, like, millions or 100 of millions of of IDs,
597
00:51:10.425 --> 00:51:11.805
that's not the end of the world.
598
00:51:12.184 --> 00:51:16.330
And then especially in 10 years, who knows how much, like, a terabyte is gonna cost?
599
00:51:17.610 --> 00:51:18.110
So
600
00:51:18.890 --> 00:51:27.745
there there's a 10,000 operation limit because it it at least stops someone I guess it's crazy Millions of data. Like the Bitcoin threat model, though, where, like, if you
601
00:51:28.685 --> 00:51:30.225
the bigger issue is bandwidth
602
00:51:31.140 --> 00:51:31.799
than storage.
603
00:51:32.819 --> 00:51:39.319
Like, it does it become prohibitively expensive to run an ion node so there's only, like, 3 of them, and they're all run by
604
00:51:40.115 --> 00:51:41.335
evil mega corpse.
605
00:51:41.875 --> 00:51:45.095
I think the bandwidth issue would probably have,
606
00:51:46.035 --> 00:51:47.495
IPFS would have
607
00:51:48.130 --> 00:51:49.410
have a lot to that, I think.
608
00:51:49.970 --> 00:51:53.350
I don't know what the stress test on IPFS are, and I don't know how
609
00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:59.875
good being able to retrieve documents on, like, a huge massive scale is actually gonna work. The ion nodes are key to the whole system. Right?
610
00:52:00.175 --> 00:52:07.010
Yeah. And the ion node is basically the ion node would Can anyone run an ion node? Anyone can run an ion node. You point it to your, Bitcoin
611
00:52:07.470 --> 00:52:10.369
instance. Can you run an ION node without storing everyone's
612
00:52:10.750 --> 00:52:11.250
credentials?
613
00:52:12.565 --> 00:52:23.470
I don't think there's a way to turn that off. But, presumably, someone could Right. Create a fork and do that. Right? And you could say, I just want to be able to create Ion identity. The cool thing is you can actually
614
00:52:23.770 --> 00:52:27.230
have someone else publish your Ion updates on behalf of you.
615
00:52:27.930 --> 00:52:40.930
You still sign it with your keys, but then you give the document to someone else and you say, hey. You're about to like, if I'm about to update my Ion identity, and you come to me and say you didn't wanna pay any on chain fees, but you know I'm already gonna pay some on chain fees,
616
00:52:41.230 --> 00:52:44.370
I can just include your update with my blockchain
617
00:52:44.910 --> 00:52:46.290
posting. So we have
618
00:52:47.745 --> 00:52:50.565
a a man from the tribe of Benz,
619
00:52:51.825 --> 00:53:01.109
Ben DeCarmen, saying, I think the gate to running an ion node is doing all the op return transactions. Is there a specific signature that has to be done for the upturn transactions?
620
00:53:01.410 --> 00:53:03.350
Yeah. You have to you do have to parse,
621
00:53:03.730 --> 00:53:17.510
all the upturn transactions. And then I believe on Mainnet, it starts with, like, 1 But what about submitting the opportune transactions? Is that permitted? Is that permissioned? Or No. Can anyone do that? Can do that. So anyone will post a specific opportune,
622
00:53:19.250 --> 00:53:45.395
and all the ion nodes will look at it and judge whether or not that's like an ion one. And if it was an ion operation, then they go fetch the IPFS file, and then they say, okay. This is a valid ion update or not. And if it is, well, let's say it was just something random, then they throw it away. But let's say it wasn't signed correctly, then they they throw that update away. But if everything was Gucci, then they would just take that update and apply it to the did that they already have in their system. So if you want to trustlessly
623
00:53:46.255 --> 00:53:48.275
resolve other people's dids,
624
00:53:48.815 --> 00:53:51.875
you would want to run an ion node that does,
625
00:53:52.470 --> 00:53:54.329
store all the IPFS updates,
626
00:53:55.030 --> 00:53:56.170
from all the other
627
00:53:56.549 --> 00:54:01.289
contributor the all the all the people posting. Because you have to check them anyway, so it's a performance thing.
628
00:54:01.955 --> 00:54:07.655
Carmen was saying he meant the fees. Like, it would just it could be prohibitively expensive for people to
629
00:54:08.515 --> 00:54:12.680
run an eye on node that's submitting op returns if fees go up.
630
00:54:13.540 --> 00:54:17.380
Yeah. But that's where you can do up to 10,000 operations in a single
631
00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:32.860
Yeah. Single op return. So that, like, you know, that helps a lot. And you can like like I said, you can have your buddy do it for you. And I was, like, thinking more of I was thinking more of a check, like, if I was running my own Ion node, like, I wouldn't, like, try and
632
00:54:35.375 --> 00:54:40.355
I wouldn't try and submit everyone's updates to chain. It would just be, like, my buddies if
633
00:54:40.655 --> 00:54:45.570
if the main ones weren't doing it or whatever. It'd be more of, like, a check on power rather than
634
00:54:45.970 --> 00:54:54.395
Exactly. Everyone's updates. And you can run an eye on node and, like, not do any updates, and you're just, like, resolving other people's identity, and maybe you don't have one yourself.
635
00:54:55.174 --> 00:55:00.714
But then the cool thing is there's there's also, like, peer to peer based it that, like, don't broadcast to a chain at all.
636
00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:05.390
There's still there's still keys involved, and you basically
637
00:55:05.770 --> 00:55:06.430
you take
638
00:55:06.730 --> 00:55:14.125
the document and you have your own peer to peer based ID that's, like, derived from that document, and then I give it to you through, like, a text file.
639
00:55:14.505 --> 00:55:16.925
Or it's like how PGP is kinda handled anyways,
640
00:55:17.350 --> 00:55:22.490
where you take your you take your blob of p PGP file and you, like, host it somewhere.
641
00:55:22.790 --> 00:55:24.405
You can do the same exact thing
642
00:55:24.805 --> 00:55:29.625
for, peer to peer based DIDs without a blockchain involved at all. So but the cool thing
643
00:55:30.005 --> 00:55:31.385
is that you're still interoperable
644
00:55:32.490 --> 00:55:41.710
with ever everyone else's DIDs no matter which one they choose. If if someone's using an Ion DID and they wanna talk to a person that's using just like a peer to peer DID and they gave them their DID,
645
00:55:42.155 --> 00:55:43.055
You could do that.
646
00:55:43.435 --> 00:55:46.015
And and and you can use the same applications.
647
00:55:46.555 --> 00:55:48.255
You talk to them exactly the same.
648
00:55:48.635 --> 00:55:51.215
It's just the resolving of I have this ID,
649
00:55:51.600 --> 00:55:52.820
and I need a document.
650
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:53.860
How
651
00:55:54.240 --> 00:56:00.180
what's the process for this ID type to get that document? And that's all that matters. That's all DIDs are, really.
652
00:56:01.815 --> 00:56:05.035
So, I mean, let's transition here. We somehow spent
653
00:56:05.494 --> 00:56:12.350
50 minutes on DIDs. Died on that hill, I guess. You're dying on the hill. You're the you're the main Didd guy now. It's you and
654
00:56:12.650 --> 00:56:14.590
it's you and, CSU Wildcat.
655
00:56:19.545 --> 00:56:20.685
Shout out to Dan.
656
00:56:21.065 --> 00:56:22.825
He's CSU Wildcat. Yep.
657
00:56:23.625 --> 00:56:24.025
The
658
00:56:25.080 --> 00:56:28.060
so are you familiar with Block's Web 5 proposal?
659
00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:33.020
A little bit. So, like, where did did for the freaks, where did dids
660
00:56:33.345 --> 00:56:36.885
fall into that vision? What is that overarching vision?
661
00:56:37.505 --> 00:56:42.085
The overarching vision, and I and, of course, they would probably say it better than I,
662
00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:43.529
but it's a
663
00:56:44.549 --> 00:56:45.690
basically a stack
664
00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:47.609
of did adjacent
665
00:56:48.069 --> 00:56:48.569
technology.
666
00:56:49.029 --> 00:56:50.490
So dids are,
667
00:56:50.835 --> 00:56:53.095
I would say, one of the biggest aspects
668
00:56:53.714 --> 00:56:55.414
for their web 5 vision.
669
00:56:56.035 --> 00:57:01.400
The IDs themselves, the identity layer itself. Right. But then I would say that web 5
670
00:57:01.780 --> 00:57:05.720
now is like building this application or developer tooling suite
671
00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:07.800
of tools around
672
00:57:08.415 --> 00:57:09.875
DID. So I believe there's
673
00:57:10.255 --> 00:57:12.915
something they're calling a decentralized web node,
674
00:57:13.295 --> 00:57:18.690
which is basically your they want that to be, like, almost your application stack that you have somewhere.
675
00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:24.770
They want verifiable credential tooling amongst their web 5 stack where they have,
676
00:57:25.214 --> 00:57:35.040
you know, tools and and processes in place and maybe some applications where you can actually, like, share. Yeah. I think Matt's a good guy, and you can have you know, build reputation systems from that or whatever.
677
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.460
And they have, like yeah. I believe
678
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.240
all the stuff around decentralized web node and,
679
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:43.300
some of their tooling and verified potential stuff,
680
00:57:43.945 --> 00:57:47.165
They're building that around. And they have the TBD project
681
00:57:47.465 --> 00:57:51.005
Right. Which is their, like, decentralized exchange protocol.
682
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:56.500
Yeah. And I believe that Which relies on DIDS as well. Relies on DIDS as well. So the whole
683
00:57:57.040 --> 00:57:58.900
basically, the whole basis for
684
00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:06.265
the build out of web 5 is built on the bedrock of Dids. Yep. Which is beautiful to see because, it's been in the works,
685
00:58:07.365 --> 00:58:09.305
I think even well before 2017,
686
00:58:09.765 --> 00:58:10.240
and,
687
00:58:11.200 --> 00:58:17.540
I hope we're finally kinda seeing the vision of that play out. So I actually get some cool applications that
688
00:58:18.015 --> 00:58:19.615
hopefully release soon this year,
689
00:58:20.095 --> 00:58:23.715
using them, and we can kind of play it with them ourselves and see
690
00:58:24.575 --> 00:58:31.790
see if, it's actually real or not. But, like, as it currently stands, I don't think you can do any of that web 5 stuff right now, but there are,
691
00:58:32.570 --> 00:58:34.190
I think they are working on that.
692
00:58:34.755 --> 00:58:39.175
And the most important part of web 5 was that it was an elaborate troll on web 3 devs.
693
00:58:39.555 --> 00:58:44.820
Yep. Because it's 2 it's web 2 plus web 3. It's 2 times better than web 3.
694
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.580
Yep. Oh, no. It's
695
00:58:47.040 --> 00:58:51.220
No. Not. It's just 2 increments better. It's 2 increments better. That's
696
00:58:52.745 --> 00:58:55.485
that's your your daily dose of live math.
697
00:58:56.585 --> 00:58:58.045
Did did better than Marty.
698
00:58:58.585 --> 00:59:01.165
2 2 times 3 is 6.
699
00:59:03.130 --> 00:59:09.150
So, I mean, I assume we're gonna talk more about this topic over the next 2 weeks as more people come into town.
700
00:59:10.165 --> 00:59:13.145
So we'll keep coming back to this topic among other topics.
701
00:59:13.925 --> 00:59:15.305
Let's pivot into
702
00:59:15.685 --> 00:59:18.265
your recent lightning privacy work.
703
00:59:18.950 --> 00:59:19.450
Yeah.
704
00:59:20.710 --> 00:59:21.690
How's that going?
705
00:59:21.990 --> 00:59:23.529
It's good. It's a lot.
706
00:59:24.470 --> 00:59:25.609
A lot of different things.
707
00:59:26.285 --> 00:59:33.805
So I can dive into some of that. I think, I think the one that you're familiar with is some of the probing that I've been doing. Yeah. What's the deal with that? You added,
708
00:59:34.205 --> 00:59:41.230
30 gigs to my fucking storage requirements, my node. Yeah. I know. I apologize for that. I did not even mean to.
709
00:59:42.065 --> 00:59:48.245
I think I had, like, asked you if I could probe you, and you're like, yeah. Sure. No. I said you don't need my permission. Anyone can probe.
710
00:59:48.545 --> 00:59:55.420
Yeah. It's an open system. So I started that. What is probing? Yeah. So probing. On the Lightning Network,
711
00:59:56.140 --> 01:00:00.435
there's this problem where you basically anybody that has a channel
712
01:00:00.975 --> 01:00:05.875
can basically probe anyone else. And probing itself is the act of sending a fake payment,
713
01:00:06.950 --> 01:00:11.369
either to a node or through a node to kind of gauge information about
714
01:00:13.109 --> 01:00:20.625
information that they can drive from whether or not that payment that fake payment made it past that node or if it got kicked back
715
01:00:21.005 --> 01:00:26.540
because of things like maybe there's not enough liquidity. So probing is historically used for balance probing.
716
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:32.974
See how much money you have on lightning. Yeah. And, typically, it's not a malicious thing.
717
01:00:33.835 --> 01:00:49.145
Services will do especially custodians, they have to they almost have to do this because the problem with lightning is you you don't know the fee that you're gonna actually pay until you get, like, that final confirmation screen of, like, okay, this fee is gonna be a 100 sats.
718
01:00:49.845 --> 01:00:58.570
The only reason you know it's gonna be a 100 sats is because the wallet did a pro behind the scenes. Typically, it's like it it shouldn't really show you a fee.
719
01:00:59.110 --> 01:01:17.759
You hit send, and then it does its route finding, it does its path finding, it tries different paths, and it fails, and it eventually goes through. Well, because some laws will they let you pick your you don't know the fee ahead of time, but you're like, my max fee is this. Yeah. So attempt the payment. If it goes over the max fee, then come back to me and be like,
720
01:01:18.140 --> 01:01:22.625
you need to Exactly. Raise your money. Or it'll only try to go down paths that are below a certain fee.
721
01:01:23.025 --> 01:01:28.165
Some of the routing algorithms have gotten smarter too where they understand that the cheapest path
722
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:45.115
may not work very often, so they'll go a little bit above. It's like they don't want the bottom lowest 1% cheapness. They would rather, like, go, like, 5%. Because cheaper fees would normally be mean, like, a worse note operator or something like that. Right. Or yeah.
723
01:01:45.494 --> 01:01:51.730
That's the I mean, I know there's another thing, like, I don't know if anyone's actually doing with this for their path finding, but,
724
01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:56.775
the cheaper fee could be less private because you go through less hops. Exactly.
725
01:01:57.075 --> 01:02:00.055
The cheap yeah. Exactly. The cheapest fee, the less hops,
726
01:02:00.355 --> 01:02:03.255
that could end up being, the least the least private.
727
01:02:03.990 --> 01:02:17.234
Honestly, yeah, if you want more privacy when you're, like, making payments, going through the most amount of hops as possible, not just the most amount of hops, but the hops that aren't the lowest path. Because you can even do like, if I know
728
01:02:18.174 --> 01:02:22.850
where your node is and where it sits, and I know, like, another node and where it sits,
729
01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:25.010
I know I can compute
730
01:02:25.950 --> 01:02:28.130
the lowest path between you and
731
01:02:28.635 --> 01:02:33.615
and and and Rod or you and someone else. I already know what that is. So if you actually take that path,
732
01:02:34.555 --> 01:02:39.090
and their observers in the middle, they can kind of hypothesize of whether or not, okay,
733
01:02:40.190 --> 01:02:42.210
the the payment came from this channel
734
01:02:42.510 --> 01:02:46.369
and I routed it out that channel. Like, how many lowest path algorithms
735
01:02:47.135 --> 01:02:48.035
fit that profile?
736
01:02:48.335 --> 01:03:00.090
So, yeah, there's there's a there's an advantage to kind of sending it down not the lowest path or not the lowest amount of hops. But probing itself is basically they're doing that to find out what payment actually succeeds.
737
01:03:01.030 --> 01:03:06.725
It's funny because it'll succeed in terms of probing means it made it to the destination and then it failed.
738
01:03:07.105 --> 01:03:09.365
But you can see if it made it to that destination.
739
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:13.480
So you try a bunch of fake payments. It makes it to the destination.
740
01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:24.565
You know what it you'll you'll calculate the fee on that, and you say, okay. That's gonna be a 100 sets. And then you go back to the user and say, it's gonna be a 100 sets to make this payment. Do you want to do this? Yes or no?
741
01:03:25.025 --> 01:03:27.444
And at least they have an exact amount for the fee.
742
01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:31.720
And custodians have to have that exact amount. They can't just be
743
01:03:32.020 --> 01:03:35.640
charging everyone at scale, like, willy nilly. They need to actually have
744
01:03:36.325 --> 01:03:37.785
an exact fee to
745
01:03:38.165 --> 01:03:56.635
see. They want the cheapest fees for the user for 1, but they also want to make sure that they can account for their own fees and they can get paid too. So these services are just probing left and right all the time. Yeah. Typically, just in time probing, which is just like right when the payment's about to be made. They send out a probe first. Right. But they can also just be probing constantly. So
746
01:03:57.655 --> 01:03:59.435
I took that probing concept,
747
01:03:59.815 --> 01:04:04.470
and I wrote about it a year ago, and we talked about it on Sedalia dispatch Alright. So 21.
748
01:04:06.610 --> 01:04:10.310
You can probe for the existence of unannounced channels too.
749
01:04:10.805 --> 01:04:20.560
Right. So called private channels. So called private channels. But you don't like the term private channels, so we're calling them unannounced channels. Unannounced channels now. Stop because they're not private. They're not they're not. They're,
750
01:04:20.940 --> 01:04:24.080
I mean, they're a little bit more private in terms of, like, you're not
751
01:04:24.675 --> 01:04:29.015
announcing them to the rest. You're not gossiping about them to the rest of the Lightning Network,
752
01:04:29.955 --> 01:04:30.775
but there's
753
01:04:31.155 --> 01:04:33.440
a variety of ways you can figure out,
754
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:47.565
that a unannounced channel exists as in, like, it could be in your invoice because you need to get paid down your unannounced channel. If you need to use an unannounced channel to receive a payment, you have to give something called a root hint, which puts it in the invoice. Exactly. And you give that invoice
755
01:04:48.025 --> 01:05:02.325
to a user, and that user may pay with strike. And then all of a sudden, now Stripe knows about all of your nodes unannounced channels. Stripe knows a lot of shit. Stripe knows a lot. General. Yeah. It's funny. If you ever And every invoice has your note ID. We've gone over the Exactly. And,
756
01:05:02.645 --> 01:05:10.940
what I like doing is, like, writing in the memo, like, this is for drugs. Right. Just try and get their strike account frozen. Exactly. So if they pay in strike, I'm like, oh,
757
01:05:11.480 --> 01:05:20.925
It's funny because they'll scan it, and then it pops up on the strike app. Oh, you're paying this for drugs. It says it on the memo. At that point, they already know. It's too late at that point. Too late.
758
01:05:21.465 --> 01:05:33.500
Well, that's what I think we talked about previously just getting rid of the memo field, right? Because it's a very user foot gun. Yeah, and there's something called memo hash. And like the story I always give is the story of I was playing poker.
759
01:05:34.295 --> 01:05:35.995
And I put the guy's nim
760
01:05:37.175 --> 01:05:38.075
dash poker,
761
01:05:38.855 --> 01:05:53.795
and then he paid with strikes. So then strike knew his nim and that he was playing poker and could correlate my note ID with the poker game. Exactly. So what's a memo hash? It's a hash of the memo instead. Right. So you put that in there, but there's still a problem of, like, okay, if you
762
01:05:54.255 --> 01:05:56.755
write the same thing, then the same hash
763
01:05:57.375 --> 01:06:09.985
would be, like, for everyone. So if everyone put 4 drugs, then, like, all you would do is hash the word 4 drugs and Right. Everyone You'd have to put some kind of salt there, like Some salt. 4 drugs 69 or something. I I like putting
764
01:06:10.945 --> 01:06:15.925
44 100 milligrams LSD. But then why how is that even helpful for the recipient,
765
01:06:17.025 --> 01:06:38.540
for the sender? Obviously, it's helpful for the recipient. Right. It's The sender can't reverse engineer the hash, so they can't see what the memo payment is. So you have to send the hash out of band, and that's the pro I think that's why it's basically unusable to use the memo hash because So you put the memo hash in band, and then you put the actual context of the memo out of band, and then the sender can verify
766
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:39.980
based on that
767
01:06:40.280 --> 01:07:06.555
Yep. That it was, in fact, the real memo. Yeah. And if you wanna see this over or over or just not having a memo. Exactly. Just don't have a memo. But if you wanna see this in fact Each individual can put their own memo. Like, if I'm paying you in my wallet, I could just put I'm paying Tony. Exactly. And in your wallet, you could be, like, I'm receiving money from Matt, and we don't have to actually exchange that information. No. I would rather peep we get rid of rent memos in lightning, and whenever someone goes to pay, the sender just manually types a description, and it just saves it in their phone.
768
01:07:07.175 --> 01:07:10.555
Which is what we do with labels for on chain transactions already. Exactly.
769
01:07:11.200 --> 01:07:15.780
It's it's not and then but if you wanna see memo hashes be done in practice, Ben Carmen,
770
01:07:16.240 --> 01:07:16.880
he has,
771
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:24.335
his options for me. Coming here next week? Yeah. Awesome. Alright. So I gotta just talk someone on stream, but I think yeah. He'll be on dispatch.
772
01:07:25.035 --> 01:07:25.535
Yeah.
773
01:07:26.075 --> 01:07:33.769
I think he was just on Stephane LeMaire last night. So Great podcast. Episode. Yeah. I don't know what number it is. Sorry, Stephane. Stephane knows. He knows.
774
01:07:34.710 --> 01:07:42.335
But if you wanna see him on the podcast famously, like, out of he he out of nowhere he can name any episode that he's fucking done. He's done 100.
775
01:07:42.875 --> 01:07:43.375
Yeah.
776
01:07:43.915 --> 01:07:45.535
Madman over there. But
777
01:07:46.190 --> 01:07:50.369
Opera TurnBot, made by Ben Carmen, it uses the concept of memo hashes.
778
01:07:51.230 --> 01:07:54.289
So if you wanna see this done in practice, like, you know, pay,
779
01:07:55.325 --> 01:07:56.705
pay a memo from
780
01:07:57.005 --> 01:07:58.285
opportune bots and,
781
01:07:58.765 --> 01:07:59.745
see how that works.
782
01:08:00.045 --> 01:08:02.705
I mean, it's a bad u x in general memo, hashes.
783
01:08:03.150 --> 01:08:09.890
Okay. So we're getting sidetracked. So probing is sending a bunch of fake payments to learn things on the Lightning Network. Right. Whether that's fees,
784
01:08:10.405 --> 01:08:12.745
how much you're holding on the Lightning Network,
785
01:08:13.045 --> 01:08:13.545
or
786
01:08:14.485 --> 01:08:16.105
unannounced channels existing.
787
01:08:16.405 --> 01:08:19.909
Yeah. So that one was a new one. So you sent a shit ton of unannounced
788
01:08:20.630 --> 01:08:22.250
shit ton of fake payments
789
01:08:22.710 --> 01:08:27.210
to my node, to the dispatch node, the same node you guys used to stream stats to.
790
01:08:28.295 --> 01:08:28.795
And
791
01:08:29.255 --> 01:08:30.315
what was the result?
792
01:08:30.775 --> 01:08:53.420
The result was your channel DB size grew 30 gigabytes. Right. So you denial of service attacked me with storage space. Right. I hope freaks didn't have a problem paying Matt during that time. No. Payments are still going Cool. Going great. The note is I specifically didn't jam your channels at least, so I made it a little bit lower. So I would send up to How could you jam my channels? How does that work? Oh, channel jamming.
793
01:08:54.219 --> 01:08:57.360
You just hold you do a lot basically a lot of HODL
794
01:08:57.739 --> 01:09:02.075
invoices Okay. And you just hold, and you exhaust all 483
795
01:09:03.975 --> 01:09:11.489
HTLCs at each of your Per channel? Per channel. And then how how long does that last, that gym? I think you can go for a few days,
796
01:09:13.150 --> 01:09:15.250
and then you would have to do it again,
797
01:09:15.949 --> 01:09:28.449
which is not that hard. You can just keep You're gonna have it automated. Over and over and over again. So So would and so anyone can just take down any lightning node. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And Yos highlighted this about a year or 2 ago, Yos Jager.
798
01:09:28.910 --> 01:09:33.250
And I think he did the trial. He did it with, like, I think, bit refill and,
799
01:09:34.455 --> 01:09:34.955
Amboss
800
01:09:35.495 --> 01:09:36.715
or or just for himself.
801
01:09:37.575 --> 01:09:46.360
And they did that proof of concept on main nets, and he actually went through and jammed the channels between you can you can send a payment that just keeps going around in the circle,
802
01:09:47.140 --> 01:09:55.885
going through the same channels. So you don't have to send multiple. You don't even have to send multiple. Keeps taking spots. So, like, one payment, you can you can jam, like,
803
01:09:56.344 --> 01:10:00.844
you can jam up to 20 h t l c slots. But this is specifically an issue with Huddl invoices?
804
01:10:01.510 --> 01:10:16.985
This is just an I guess it's not I that's just the way I described it. It's not Huddl invoices themselves. It's just like I guess it is. Yeah. I mean, you it doesn't have to be an Huddl invoice per se. But Can you my point is can you disable that on your node? No. So you're you're routing,
805
01:10:17.730 --> 01:10:21.910
and you have no idea how But why hasn't someone done this to, like, Kraken or
806
01:10:22.690 --> 01:10:24.070
Bitfinex or some shit?
807
01:10:24.450 --> 01:10:28.365
Because we don't operate under an adversarial environment. As I always say.
808
01:10:28.905 --> 01:10:34.765
So so so you're you're you agree with me under the belief that that lightning is is kind of just,
809
01:10:36.940 --> 01:10:41.920
it's been operating in this honeymoon phase, basically, where you don't have really active attackers out there.
810
01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:47.125
I I would say so. And it probably won't get more robust until there's really active attacks. Right?
811
01:10:47.505 --> 01:10:48.324
Right. So
812
01:10:48.625 --> 01:10:59.460
part of my hope for some of this proven too so, okay, besides the fact that you went up your d b went up 30 gigabytes Right. I was able to find, I think, 15 or 16 different unannounced channels on your node.
813
01:10:59.965 --> 01:11:05.364
I don't know if you ever went back to confirm if that's how much you had or not. I was kinda pissed off about the extra 30 gigs. I'm just like
814
01:11:06.245 --> 01:11:08.965
Probably couldn't log in to your node because it was locked out.
815
01:11:09.590 --> 01:11:16.889
But I intentionally didn't oh, yeah. That's why I said it. I intentionally didn't jam your channel so you can still operate. I, at most, sent, like, 450
816
01:11:17.269 --> 01:11:18.535
HCLCs at once,
817
01:11:19.095 --> 01:11:20.075
instead of 483.
818
01:11:20.615 --> 01:11:22.795
Really kind of you. Yeah. You're only
819
01:11:23.495 --> 01:11:27.355
you're only, like, 90% jammed my fucking channels. Right.
820
01:11:28.780 --> 01:11:32.800
I I apologize. Guys should see the smile on my face. I I fucking love it.
821
01:11:34.219 --> 01:11:40.225
So I was able to I don't know if that was all of your your your on and out channels or not, but I found some as far back as, like, 2019.
822
01:11:41.645 --> 01:11:46.625
And the nodes are really old node. Yeah. It's a it's I like to the way I learn is I just
823
01:11:48.320 --> 01:11:57.015
I like to push limits, like we said earlier on the show. So I just kind of aped into lightning. Yeah. And I just, you know, I I've learned a lot of expensive lessons since.
824
01:11:57.955 --> 01:12:09.680
And and one of the things learn. That sucks, and I guess going back to on an like, okay. So we said we're gonna this this shows your unannounced channels. What does that actually mean? It means that the UTXO
825
01:12:10.219 --> 01:12:15.585
that is backing that channel, you thought you were making it private by making it a private channel,
826
01:12:16.764 --> 01:12:19.105
and you you didn't announce it to the whole network.
827
01:12:19.500 --> 01:12:20.320
But then,
828
01:12:20.780 --> 01:12:28.665
it gets probed out or it gets leaked in an invoice, and all of a sudden, they can see your UTXO that you You can connect the UTXO to it. Right.
829
01:12:29.225 --> 01:12:29.965
The amount.
830
01:12:30.505 --> 01:12:40.450
Do you know the active balance, like, remote versus local? Like, how much is on each of the notes? If I wanted to go that far and actually do if I did the balance
831
01:12:41.150 --> 01:12:43.890
probing attack after doing the private
832
01:12:44.350 --> 01:13:01.580
channel attack, the unannounced channel probing be a second attack. It would be a second attack, but I could. I could. And what? You just keep increasing the payment amount Yep. To see how much can go through. Yep. And then once I actually With all fake payments. Exactly. So presumably, you just add another attack on top of that. So you first find the private, the unannounced channel,
833
01:13:02.200 --> 01:13:12.125
and then you do the balance probing version of that attack to figure out how much is on each node. Because because the way I like to think of lightning for the freaks is it's like an abacus,
834
01:13:12.905 --> 01:13:27.455
which most people probably don't even know what an abacus is. It's those it's like the things they use as calculators before calculators existed where you have, like, little beads on a string. So you have some Bitcoin on one side of the channel and some Bitcoin on the other. One's controlled by one node. One's controlled by the other node.
835
01:13:27.755 --> 01:13:29.855
And natively, by the gossip protocol,
836
01:13:30.715 --> 01:13:31.465
you can't
837
01:13:33.100 --> 01:13:44.215
you can't see how much balance is on each side. But with this balance probing attack, you could. Yep. And if I wanted to, I could add another attack. So I find your unannounced channel. I see what,
838
01:13:44.675 --> 01:13:49.975
how much is on either side. And then I just go ahead and jam it just to, like, put the cherry on top.
839
01:13:51.139 --> 01:13:55.880
So first, you discover the unannounced channels, then you figure out how much money everyone has on lightning,
840
01:13:56.340 --> 01:13:58.360
and then you shut down my node. Yeah.
841
01:13:59.255 --> 01:14:00.875
And at no cost to me.
842
01:14:02.535 --> 01:14:05.515
I just have to open up a bunch of channels, and I'm ready to go.
843
01:14:06.750 --> 01:14:14.030
Well, we got a long way to go, I guess. Yeah. Oh, okay. So the positive news. Yeah. Let's hit us with the positive. The positive news. Let's get let's get cheery here.
844
01:14:14.590 --> 01:14:18.035
This is in progress of being fixed. Nice. Yeah.
845
01:14:19.695 --> 01:14:24.195
LDK has added it. I believe there's a PR for LND. I'm not sure about Corelightning
846
01:14:24.575 --> 01:14:27.650
or Eclair, but they're all gonna going to add it.
847
01:14:28.770 --> 01:14:35.225
It's they're calling it like this the 0 comp channel feature. So like that doesn't sound like a great feature to have
848
01:14:36.185 --> 01:14:43.460
for most users. Like, no one's gonna wanna open 0 comp channels, between just, like, normal people, but it's mostly for LSPs.
849
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:52.855
But with that, they had Lightning service providers. Yeah. Lightning service providers. With that, they had to add the feature that you could make up a fake channel
850
01:14:53.395 --> 01:14:55.255
ID for your unannounced channels.
851
01:14:56.034 --> 01:15:10.905
Okay. So because it like, the whole reason this is possible is because the channel ID is derived from the UTXO information. Right. So once you have the channel ID, you can figure out which UTXO opened it. So now there's for unannounced channels, there's not well, you know, once your software supports
852
01:15:11.205 --> 01:15:11.705
it,
853
01:15:13.205 --> 01:15:16.505
you're not gonna have to you don't docks your UTXO
854
01:15:16.885 --> 01:15:17.625
based on,
855
01:15:18.660 --> 01:15:27.160
the channel ID. So you can now again put it in a bunch of invoices, and they won't know what UTXOs are associated with. Still do the balance probing.
856
01:15:28.364 --> 01:15:31.744
Or no? No. Because because you can't probe
857
01:15:32.764 --> 01:15:40.010
the on and out channel at all, because for for 1, you also well, okay. I'll take it back a little bit. If you knew the channel ID,
858
01:15:40.390 --> 01:15:50.035
it would be possible to still probe it, but you would not know what UTXO was derived from it still. You could maybe do a Wait. So you couldn't just do the probing attack that you're already doing?
859
01:15:50.450 --> 01:15:51.190
No. Because,
860
01:15:52.450 --> 01:15:56.230
the way it works look. It's an channel ID is a number, basically.
861
01:15:57.010 --> 01:16:01.715
And it would be too it's too hard to just guess the number because it could be any random number.
862
01:16:03.615 --> 01:16:14.490
I am actually looking at every I scan the blockchain for every unspent p 2 WSA transaction Right. Which is the kind of transaction that an open lightning channel,
863
01:16:14.870 --> 01:16:15.370
is.
864
01:16:16.025 --> 01:16:17.005
There's about
865
01:16:17.625 --> 01:16:18.125
860,000
866
01:16:19.705 --> 01:16:20.205
unspent,
867
01:16:20.905 --> 01:16:21.405
PHWSH
868
01:16:21.945 --> 01:16:28.860
transactions. Okay. And you need it to be unspent because, like, that means it's still in a channel. Right. It's a channel open, but no closed. Exactly.
869
01:16:29.560 --> 01:16:36.455
So that's the set I get to work on. Instead of, like, a number between 1 and, you know, I don't know, 2 to the power of 64,
870
01:16:36.915 --> 01:16:42.250
I'm literally just dealing with, like, a binary amount, like, just a a numerical amount of probes.
871
01:16:42.790 --> 01:16:47.955
So if I wanted to scale this up, like, I think I spent, like, a day or 2 doing a complete
872
01:16:48.655 --> 01:16:49.155
800,000
873
01:16:49.615 --> 01:16:52.435
probes against you because we're we're also going through TOR.
874
01:16:52.735 --> 01:16:54.220
It's also taking a while. Right.
875
01:16:54.620 --> 01:17:02.165
Maybe The shittiness of tours. Maybe maybe my pro starting up is what made tour go shitty. I don't know. Yeah. You'd you'd you'd DDoS the tour network.
876
01:17:02.885 --> 01:17:05.705
That'd be great if that's, like, what I accidentally did.
877
01:17:06.805 --> 01:17:15.840
But no. So we were even going through Tor, and I think it was, like, I was only able to do, like, 5 probes a second, which is still pretty good on tour in the grand scheme of things.
878
01:17:16.619 --> 01:17:17.679
What was that, like,
879
01:17:18.195 --> 01:17:18.855
that young
880
01:17:19.395 --> 01:17:20.375
or whatever that
881
01:17:20.755 --> 01:17:21.875
remember when he, like,
882
01:17:23.395 --> 01:17:28.420
he fucked up the multisig because he, like, called the function or something. He was just, like, fucking around, and then he posted
883
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:29.940
he posted on
884
01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:38.295
the on the forum or something. He's like, I think I killed it or something. So that was Oh, yeah. It, like, shut down the entire smart contract. Yeah. Yeah. They lost a bunch of ETH on that.
885
01:17:39.235 --> 01:17:43.780
Yeah. I It's like that, but you and Tor. Yeah. You and Tor or or me and lightning.
886
01:17:44.340 --> 01:17:51.079
But, like, that's that's that's the thing. Wait. So just to go back here a little bit. So the probing attack as currently stated,
887
01:17:52.415 --> 01:17:53.635
you're able to basically,
888
01:17:55.054 --> 01:18:01.235
with a fake payment, go down those unannounced channels. But I thought you can't like, unannounced channels aren't used for routing.
889
01:18:01.870 --> 01:18:13.755
But they Without route hints. Right. They can't, though. You can't actually use them. If you force your way through. If you force your way through. And the reason that has to be, you can say, oh, well, what if I tell my no not to just route any payment? Well,
890
01:18:14.135 --> 01:18:17.195
the other no doesn't know if it's just paying you.
891
01:18:18.010 --> 01:18:29.445
So it has to give you Right. That payment, and you like, you would want it to get to your node. Right. And then your node decides whether or not it was a payment. If it wasn't a real payment, then it throws it back. So then let's go back forward.
892
01:18:29.745 --> 01:18:30.245
The
893
01:18:32.545 --> 01:18:33.845
so with this change
894
01:18:34.830 --> 01:18:35.330
that's
895
01:18:35.870 --> 01:18:36.930
soon to be implemented,
896
01:18:38.990 --> 01:18:45.635
you couldn't just do that same probe and then do some kind of, like, timing analysis on when that channel was created
897
01:18:46.895 --> 01:18:48.035
with the UTXO
898
01:18:48.815 --> 01:18:49.315
set?
899
01:18:50.015 --> 01:18:50.915
No. Because
900
01:18:51.490 --> 01:18:52.470
since it's not
901
01:18:53.250 --> 01:18:59.750
since the channel ID is no longer derived and and and if we're moving to just random channel ID aliases,
902
01:19:00.305 --> 01:19:03.605
it's too big of a number set to be able to actually
903
01:19:03.985 --> 01:19:32.090
reasonably Right. Guess any a single So would you be Even if I did, even if I got I could maybe figure out that there was a channel between 2 nodes that's unannounced, but I won't know it's I won't know it's UTXO information or it's amount or any anything like that. And you but you could still balance ProBit. Right? Yes. You could still balance ProBit. So you wouldn't know what UTXO is based on, but you know the channel existed and how much Right. Was in there. So in theory, if you leaked out
904
01:19:32.630 --> 01:19:33.850
that channel ID,
905
01:19:35.635 --> 01:19:36.695
through an invoice,
906
01:19:37.155 --> 01:19:39.495
someone with an invoice, one of your invoices
907
01:19:40.275 --> 01:19:43.950
can probe that and also route down it if it wanted to.
908
01:19:44.830 --> 01:19:49.730
The main reason, honestly, to have unannounced channels in this day and age, not for privacy at all.
909
01:19:50.190 --> 01:19:53.010
It's it's mostly just for the fact that
910
01:19:53.445 --> 01:19:57.865
you're signaling to the network. You probably don't want to use this channel
911
01:19:58.245 --> 01:20:00.585
because it's from a mobile node that's gonna
912
01:20:00.940 --> 01:20:14.644
be on the it for routing. Don't use it for I'm telling you not to use it for routing. I'm asking you not to for your own benefit. You can, but, like, you're not gonna get anywhere. So what's the name of this change we're talking about? We're talking about 0 zero confirmation channels? So zero confirmation channels or
913
01:20:15.025 --> 01:20:15.525
SCID
914
01:20:15.905 --> 01:20:16.405
aliases.
915
01:20:16.720 --> 01:20:18.740
They're kind of the they lump together.
916
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:22.820
And but the cool thing is, like, I Would you call them
917
01:20:23.440 --> 01:20:28.614
private channels again after this update, or would you still call them unannounced channels? I would still call
918
01:20:29.074 --> 01:20:30.355
them unannounced channels because
919
01:20:31.315 --> 01:20:31.975
I mean,
920
01:20:32.390 --> 01:20:37.050
I don't know. That's a good question. Because at least you get to hide the UTX information now.
921
01:20:39.405 --> 01:20:41.905
And even if you dox the fact that you have a channel,
922
01:20:42.525 --> 01:20:45.505
you don't dox the UTXO. So I don't know. That's a good question.
923
01:20:45.885 --> 01:20:49.000
Maybe they are gonna be private channels now. You know?
924
01:20:49.960 --> 01:20:55.740
You're still telling it to your node partner, so, you know, they could, like, tell other people, I guess. But
925
01:20:56.165 --> 01:21:00.505
But but your node partner can't tell the UTXO either that was used. No. They know.
926
01:21:01.925 --> 01:21:21.990
Your node partner knows. Yeah. Your node partner knows. Even though the channel ID isn't derived from the UTXO. Correct. Yeah. Because they're both waiting on the fact Alright. They have to know. It's part of the Yeah. It's it's what Part of the trust model. Exactly. If they didn't know They're looking at the collateral as it's Right. Gonna have to be able to do the penalty transaction to take your UTXO if you fuck with them. Yeah.
927
01:21:23.330 --> 01:21:26.230
But the cool thing is, like, besides your node, I probed,
928
01:21:27.490 --> 01:21:28.870
2 other nodes, and
929
01:21:29.205 --> 01:21:31.625
one of them was, the async node.
930
01:21:32.005 --> 01:21:35.865
Okay. 1 of the largest nodes of the network. Yeah. Like, the largest node.
931
01:21:36.405 --> 01:21:41.000
Is it the largest node? I think it The the largest node oh, per channel. Per channel it is.
932
01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:52.515
I was able to find 400 How many gigs did you add to theirs? I don't well, actually, so because they're not running l and d, I don't think I added very many. Oh, because they're running async. Right.
933
01:21:54.210 --> 01:21:59.590
So they were fine, and c lightning is fine, and l and d will be fine soon with some updates.
934
01:22:00.530 --> 01:22:09.990
But I was able to find 4 105 don't even wanna be running l and d, but I I don't wanna close all my channels. I have so many channel I mean, you know better than most how many channels I have on that note. So Yeah. I know the exact number.
935
01:22:11.750 --> 01:22:14.490
Okay. So sorry. You you probed the async node.
936
01:22:15.910 --> 01:22:17.850
And I was able to find with just,
937
01:22:18.455 --> 01:22:20.795
I only sent out 30,000 probes.
938
01:22:21.255 --> 01:22:22.155
And I found
939
01:22:23.175 --> 01:22:26.475
445 on announced channels that they had opened. How many? 445.
940
01:22:27.015 --> 01:22:27.515
Okay.
941
01:22:28.469 --> 01:22:30.409
Totaling over 10 Bitcoin worth.
942
01:22:30.949 --> 01:22:31.830
Wow. Yeah.
943
01:22:32.630 --> 01:22:38.275
And and some of them, you know, went back for a while, but, someone did some visualization
944
01:22:38.655 --> 01:22:45.750
for me on some of my data. So I open sourced all of this data. The all the codes to do to do this is out there. So Where can people find that?
945
01:22:46.150 --> 01:22:50.890
Hidden lightning network dot com. Great domain. Yeah. Which just redirects to a GitHub page.
946
01:22:53.245 --> 01:23:00.385
Go there. All the code is there. There's, like, a data folder to or a results folder to go and find the actual data results for this.
947
01:23:00.690 --> 01:23:02.470
Someone did some visualization
948
01:23:03.570 --> 01:23:07.190
for me, and it actually is kinda cool. He was able to see when
949
01:23:08.425 --> 01:23:09.165
all of the
950
01:23:09.545 --> 01:23:13.485
channels were open and how much were opening. And it's like the start,
951
01:23:14.105 --> 01:23:16.205
you know, the the I think their new,
952
01:23:16.870 --> 01:23:25.994
LSP that they launched, there's a huge uptick in unannounced channels being open because they're an LSP and they're they're mobile app and it makes sense that,
953
01:23:26.454 --> 01:23:35.210
you know, someone like them. I wanna I wanna eventually probe Breeze and But that can't be all of their unannounced channels. Right? No. They must have way more than 400. I only probed
954
01:23:35.670 --> 01:23:36.170
30,000
955
01:23:36.870 --> 01:23:37.530
out of
956
01:23:37.830 --> 01:23:38.330
800.
957
01:23:38.710 --> 01:23:39.755
So I did, like, what?
958
01:23:40.315 --> 01:23:42.094
Out of 800,000. 800,000.
959
01:23:42.395 --> 01:23:43.054
Yeah. Sorry.
960
01:23:43.594 --> 01:23:49.534
I only did, like, like, a few percent. I'm not gonna try and do math right now. Yeah. I'm not. Like, a few percent. I think
961
01:23:49.980 --> 01:23:51.200
that's, like, 5%.
962
01:23:51.740 --> 01:23:52.240
Yeah.
963
01:23:53.180 --> 01:23:54.960
And I I those 30,000,
964
01:23:56.140 --> 01:23:59.155
less than 5%. Because 5% would be 600 k. Yeah.
965
01:23:59.875 --> 01:24:00.934
Math. Math.
966
01:24:02.514 --> 01:24:10.080
Out of that 30,000, I the reason why I got so many just from that is because I just used UTXO so it looked like they could have been lighting channels.
967
01:24:10.460 --> 01:24:11.520
So, like, a very
968
01:24:12.139 --> 01:24:17.545
round number that's, like, a 100,000 or a 1000000 sats. Right. The round number ones are round numbers. Round number
969
01:24:18.165 --> 01:24:21.225
is. People love their round number channels. I know. Myself included.
970
01:24:21.845 --> 01:24:29.699
And and then the fact that it was, like, only 1 of 2 in the change output because, like, you're not doing batch people don't batch channel open.
971
01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:34.775
Right. You can now, but people don't. It's too hard, honestly, to do it.
972
01:24:37.155 --> 01:24:42.800
And yeah. So everyone uses just round numbers, and it's usually the only transactions in that,
973
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:44.000
output.
974
01:24:44.380 --> 01:24:48.639
Just 2. So it was able to I'm like, that's probably a high percent like, 445
975
01:24:48.940 --> 01:24:53.844
channels from that 30 k. It's pretty high. Right? It's pretty high percentage wise. The rest of the,
976
01:24:54.305 --> 01:25:02.790
you know, 800 k probably won't be the same percentage that I find, but I'll probably still find But if it was the same, I guess you could extrapolate. I mean, if we're just gonna multiply by 20
977
01:25:03.809 --> 01:25:05.750
over 8,000 private channels.
978
01:25:06.929 --> 01:25:08.869
Yeah. Could be. But that
979
01:25:09.535 --> 01:25:14.915
it's it's even it's even it would be even more than that. It would be, like, 10,000 channels. Something like that.
980
01:25:15.295 --> 01:25:17.875
Right. And then who knows how many Bitcoin? Maybe
981
01:25:18.340 --> 01:25:20.600
50. I mean, it's an interest Why did you stop?
982
01:25:21.460 --> 01:25:28.114
So I stopped because my l and d note kept fucking up. No. So a little bit about how this project works. I'm I'm using LDK
983
01:25:28.815 --> 01:25:32.355
Okay. Which is really cool. I've been playing around with that for the last few months.
984
01:25:33.054 --> 01:25:39.940
And but because I don't trust The new lightning implementation The new lightning implementation. Championed by the spiral team. Right.
985
01:25:40.500 --> 01:25:44.815
And it's it's gone a long way. Like, a lot of people have been using it now. It's gone a long way.
986
01:25:45.835 --> 01:25:52.480
You still have to do a lot. Like, there's no batteries included. So, like, you have to figure out how to create your LDK project.
987
01:25:53.420 --> 01:26:00.285
And quite honestly, I didn't trust myself to just connect to any node on the network with my LDK node that I hand, like, hand built.
988
01:26:00.925 --> 01:26:03.905
But shout out to Paul Miller. He helped a lot on,
989
01:26:04.605 --> 01:26:07.985
on my Future Paul on Twitter. Future Paul. Go follow him.
990
01:26:09.120 --> 01:26:16.420
Give him engagement. He's a ride or die freak too. Yeah. Love the guy. He'll be here next week. Yeah. He's gonna be on dispatch as well.
991
01:26:16.824 --> 01:26:18.585
He's gonna be on dispatch. Love it.
992
01:26:20.185 --> 01:26:22.284
But I didn't trust my LDK implementation.
993
01:26:22.585 --> 01:26:23.085
So,
994
01:26:23.705 --> 01:26:26.790
I connected it to my LND node at home,
995
01:26:27.730 --> 01:26:32.550
but that started slowing down. That started getting fucked up. After so many payments, I had a hard time
996
01:26:33.010 --> 01:26:35.430
compacting the DB. I had to fork LND,
997
01:26:36.565 --> 01:26:38.105
and as advice against
998
01:26:38.485 --> 01:26:41.945
from from Alex Bosworth, he said, don't I wouldn't do that.
999
01:26:42.700 --> 01:26:47.680
And I'm like, I'm gonna take this PR, and I'm gonna patch it onto my LNDs. Don't do that.
1000
01:26:49.500 --> 01:26:55.034
I did it and it worked. I got my 30 gigabytes compacted down, like, a 128 megs.
1001
01:26:56.614 --> 01:27:27.225
And I'm worried about updating in the future. But it's still not merged, and they're still fixing some of the issues. But so long story short, your LND node failed while you were probing. Right. And it was in the middle of the Austin hackathon. I'm, like, trying to get this data out there to, like, be able to talk about it, and my note keeps fucking up at home. So I'm like, okay. That's it. I'm going. Whatever partial dataset. Partial dataset. It's out there. People can view it. It's actually a kind of a nice warning. I can warn people. Okay. If you actually like, I warned you a year ago with that article. But if you actually still think private channels are private,
1002
01:27:28.565 --> 01:27:31.365
then close your channels now if you don't wanna be probed. So,
1003
01:27:32.280 --> 01:27:37.260
hopefully, sometime this week, I started again. I'm gonna set up a c lightning node. Hopefully, it's more reliable.
1004
01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.620
Yeah. Because in the privacy game in general, every like,
1005
01:27:41.155 --> 01:27:54.990
there's pretty much wide agreement that, like, the worst case scenario for user privacy is when a user thinks they're private but they're not. And the thing that's gonna suck is it's better if they just assume lack of privacy and don't have privacy. Exactly. Then it's the opposite. Hide your UTXO.
1006
01:27:55.370 --> 01:27:56.590
It's like, don't
1007
01:27:57.085 --> 01:28:06.145
do it in a lightning channel. Right. There's other ways to do it. I think I in the article I wrote, you can go back and read some of the suggestions I have if you want privacy on lightning.
1008
01:28:06.860 --> 01:28:07.360
But
1009
01:28:07.739 --> 01:28:10.940
with this short channel ID aliasing stuff that's gonna be fixed,
1010
01:28:11.500 --> 01:28:14.960
you're gonna everyone's gonna have to close their private channels to take advantage of that,
1011
01:28:15.905 --> 01:28:17.045
and open them again.
1012
01:28:17.425 --> 01:28:19.045
Well, that fucking sucks. Yeah.
1013
01:28:19.985 --> 01:28:29.320
Well, these fees are still cheap. Yeah. So people are like, oh, well, why are you probing? This is gonna be fixed. I'm like, it'll be fixed when when I don't find any results anymore, and no one has private channels anymore.
1014
01:28:31.074 --> 01:28:33.335
Okay, freaks. Well, you heard it from Tony.
1015
01:28:33.875 --> 01:28:36.855
Keep all this in mind. Tony, we have a comment,
1016
01:28:37.635 --> 01:28:39.815
from citrinity, ride or die freak.
1017
01:28:41.179 --> 01:28:42.639
Fucking love these dudes. This
1018
01:28:43.340 --> 01:28:44.320
is a real one.
1019
01:28:44.699 --> 01:28:49.965
When you get a chance, would love to hear your thoughts on privacy implications of using CLboss
1020
01:28:50.905 --> 01:28:59.600
automated node manager to open and balance channels with, say, a large single post mix UTXO. Do you have any thoughts on this? I haven't used CL
1021
01:28:59.980 --> 01:29:00.480
BOSS,
1022
01:29:01.020 --> 01:29:01.520
itself.
1023
01:29:02.060 --> 01:29:04.640
Carmen says, by the way, they're adding a migration mechanism.
1024
01:29:05.020 --> 01:29:07.204
So to between l and d
1025
01:29:07.585 --> 01:29:10.965
and others. Thanks for filling the gaps here, Carmen. Appreciate it.
1026
01:29:11.425 --> 01:29:12.244
CL boss,
1027
01:29:13.025 --> 01:29:14.885
I don't know too much about it, but I believe
1028
01:29:15.220 --> 01:29:20.760
it's not using, like, a centralized server or anything. It's only using your nodes metrics to be able to try to
1029
01:29:22.635 --> 01:29:27.775
rebalance your channel. So I don't I don't yeah. There's not really a privacy concern there too much.
1030
01:29:28.635 --> 01:29:35.410
And in fact, actually, I would say, like, rebalancing channels kind of helps your privacy a little bit because you're sending payments out
1031
01:29:35.790 --> 01:29:38.050
down one channel, and they're succeeding.
1032
01:29:38.510 --> 01:29:38.885
But
1033
01:29:39.925 --> 01:29:53.900
those channels don't know it's coming in a different way. It's coming back to you. It's coming back to you. So it's almost like if you were to do It's a pump fake in football. Right. Pump fake or or or, what's what is it? Is it ricochet in in samurai where, like, you just send a bunch of payments amongst yourself?
1034
01:29:54.760 --> 01:30:02.005
You just add hops to your own Ricochet is the one that adds hops. Right. Yeah. So that would be, like, the equivalent. Like, doing rebalancing actually probably
1035
01:30:02.305 --> 01:30:05.685
helps your payment and onset because And in general, using lightning
1036
01:30:07.410 --> 01:30:08.310
privacy wise,
1037
01:30:09.090 --> 01:30:09.590
using,
1038
01:30:10.130 --> 01:30:10.870
a single
1039
01:30:11.810 --> 01:30:14.230
post coin join collaborative transaction, UTXO,
1040
01:30:15.685 --> 01:30:16.825
with 1 or 2
1041
01:30:17.525 --> 01:30:26.260
largest channels and then just getting rid of the node and starting fresh is, like, the best. Right. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we can talk about it a little bit, but,
1042
01:30:26.740 --> 01:30:27.640
me and Paul,
1043
01:30:28.740 --> 01:30:29.720
we worked on
1044
01:30:30.100 --> 01:30:30.600
PLN,
1045
01:30:31.015 --> 01:30:37.515
which is like we're calling it, like, the private lightning wallet. Right. So we've started that, and its only feature right now really
1046
01:30:37.895 --> 01:30:38.395
is
1047
01:30:38.700 --> 01:30:42.080
whenever you open a channel, it's it spins up a new node.
1048
01:30:42.540 --> 01:30:50.655
So every time That's cool. The other channel spins up a new node, You can only send, if you try to if you try to receive, you get a a funny meme pops up,
1049
01:30:51.115 --> 01:30:52.730
because receiving is not private.
1050
01:30:53.210 --> 01:31:02.445
Sending is has pretty good privacy. So it's it's like, ideally, you have one node You're calling it private lightning wallet? Mhmm. PLN. Great name. Yeah.
1051
01:31:02.844 --> 01:31:04.145
It it gets the job done.
1052
01:31:04.925 --> 01:31:08.784
But that's its only purpose is to just spend Bitcoin. Can people use that today?
1053
01:31:09.405 --> 01:31:15.199
It's it we just started we just started at a hackathon, so we really only spent, like, 48 hours on it. So no.
1054
01:31:15.599 --> 01:31:17.539
But we do have a GitHub for it.
1055
01:31:18.755 --> 01:31:19.975
I think it's just bakeshop/pln.
1056
01:31:22.515 --> 01:31:25.415
So when we have Paul in, we'll talk more about that too. Yep.
1057
01:31:28.739 --> 01:31:31.400
So, I mean, we're at an hour and 30 minutes.
1058
01:31:33.699 --> 01:31:37.285
This is a fantastic grip. I always appreciate you joining us.
1059
01:31:37.765 --> 01:31:45.865
I'm sure I'm gonna have you on multiple times over the next week. If you would do so be here. That'd be fucking awesome.
1060
01:31:46.630 --> 01:31:49.369
Before we wrap up, hit us with some final thoughts.
1061
01:31:49.909 --> 01:31:50.809
Final thoughts.
1062
01:31:52.469 --> 01:31:55.770
I don't wanna die on the dead hill, but I think they're cool.
1063
01:31:56.725 --> 01:31:59.065
Lightning privacy is really hard. Join
1064
01:31:59.445 --> 01:31:59.945
matrix.lightninghackers.com.
1065
01:32:02.565 --> 01:32:05.065
Chat about some Lightning privacy stuff if you want.
1066
01:32:06.250 --> 01:32:06.730
And,
1067
01:32:07.210 --> 01:32:10.270
yeah, stay safe out there. Stay safe out there.
1068
01:32:10.650 --> 01:32:12.110
What? Lightning Hackers
1069
01:32:12.565 --> 01:32:16.585
is a matrix group? Mhmm. So yes. And that's on the matrix dot org server?
1070
01:32:17.605 --> 01:32:20.850
No. I'm running it myself. So it's just matrix dot
1071
01:32:21.330 --> 01:32:21.830
lightninghackers.com.
1072
01:32:23.490 --> 01:32:25.510
Okay. To to join it. Okay.
1073
01:32:25.970 --> 01:32:29.670
But that right. I think you can find it if you search the general,
1074
01:32:30.055 --> 01:32:35.195
because I'm on a different instance. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how that works. But it's hosted on lightning hackers.com, not matrix.orgserver.
1075
01:32:36.295 --> 01:32:38.160
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome.
1076
01:32:38.780 --> 01:32:40.400
Okay. I will join that as well.
1077
01:32:41.100 --> 01:32:44.080
Shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat.
1078
01:32:44.700 --> 01:32:46.400
Real quick, BTC Waterpants
1079
01:32:46.885 --> 01:32:54.105
said on Twitch, I like CL boss. I wouldn't have channels without it because I'm not fucking managing them. Great comment. Nice.
1080
01:32:55.330 --> 01:32:56.790
I appreciate all you freaks.
1081
01:32:57.650 --> 01:32:58.150
Remember,
1082
01:32:58.690 --> 01:33:00.070
the easiest way you can support
1083
01:33:00.770 --> 01:33:03.510
dispatch is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
1084
01:33:03.995 --> 01:33:08.735
Specifically, I fucking love the boostograms and being able to send messages so I can read them.
1085
01:33:09.275 --> 01:33:10.975
But if you have no stats to spare,
1086
01:33:11.340 --> 01:33:13.920
subscribing on your favorite platform, whether that's bitcointv.com,
1087
01:33:14.860 --> 01:33:19.040
Twitter, Twitch, or your favorite podcast app by simply searching CIL dispatch.
1088
01:33:19.695 --> 01:33:22.995
Like I said, I did put the appeal into YouTube. Don't hold your breath.
1089
01:33:24.255 --> 01:33:24.835
But, ideally,
1090
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:25.795
it
1091
01:33:26.415 --> 01:33:32.170
will get overturned, so you can get notifications on YouTube. But right now, you can get notifications
1092
01:33:34.070 --> 01:33:34.809
on Twitch.
1093
01:33:35.892 --> 01:33:39.753
With all that said, I love you all. Stay on bone stack sets.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:24:53 PM
Duration: 5621.238
Channels: 1
1
00:00:33.080 --> 00:00:35.260
2
00:00:35.720 --> 00:00:39.405
It's your boy Odell here for another Citadel dispatch.
3
00:00:41.545 --> 00:00:46.045
Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech
4
00:00:46.510 --> 00:00:57.045
coming from you live from the studio with a repeat guest here. Very excited. But before we get to that, I wanna thank all the freaks who continue to support the show using podcasting 2 point o apps
5
00:00:57.665 --> 00:01:01.045
and our BTC pay server located at sill dispatch.com.
6
00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:06.840
Sill dispatch is a 100% audience funded without ads or sponsored,
7
00:01:07.540 --> 00:01:12.115
focused purely on actual discussion. That would not be possible without you.
8
00:01:13.215 --> 00:01:17.475
When it comes to the podcasting 2 point o apps, my two favorites are Fountain Podcasts
9
00:01:18.890 --> 00:01:19.950
and Breeze Wallet.
10
00:01:21.690 --> 00:01:22.430
You simply
11
00:01:23.130 --> 00:01:24.670
load it up with some sats,
12
00:01:25.725 --> 00:01:30.865
search it'll dispatch, press the subscribe button, choose how many sats you want to stream to the show.
13
00:01:31.245 --> 00:01:32.305
And then as
14
00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:35.939
stats per minute, you wanna stream to the show. And then as you listen,
15
00:01:36.479 --> 00:01:38.820
it will stream stats directly to my note.
16
00:01:40.240 --> 00:01:46.005
Just a little warning. If you use Fountain Podcast, it is a custodial wallet, so do not load it with
17
00:01:46.625 --> 00:01:47.445
too much money
18
00:01:48.850 --> 00:01:51.670
because you have to trust them. Well, actually, you trust lnpay.co,
19
00:01:52.049 --> 00:01:54.390
which is the custodial pry provider they use.
20
00:01:55.865 --> 00:01:59.805
The show is also supported using a feature called boosts. Boost
21
00:02:00.345 --> 00:02:01.885
allow you to well, Boostagrams
22
00:02:02.185 --> 00:02:03.725
allow you to send a
23
00:02:04.190 --> 00:02:10.930
onetime payment and include a message with it. As always, I will be reading the top boost from the previous episode,
24
00:02:11.945 --> 00:02:14.445
to shout out the freaks who continue to support us.
25
00:02:16.025 --> 00:02:17.325
Since last episode,
26
00:02:17.945 --> 00:02:18.845
I have changed
27
00:02:19.225 --> 00:02:20.445
the set split
28
00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:23.480
on the show. So
29
00:02:24.420 --> 00:02:25.640
you were already supporting
30
00:02:26.500 --> 00:02:30.465
dispatch, and you're already supporting open source development through OpenSats.
31
00:02:31.485 --> 00:02:42.459
But now, also, direct funding will go to the no bullshit Bitcoin audience funded news desk, the raspipe blitz dev fund, the robo sats dev fund, the seed signer dev fund,
32
00:02:42.760 --> 00:02:46.140
the Zeus lightning wallet dev fund, and podcast index.org.
33
00:02:47.385 --> 00:02:54.445
So when you support dispatch, you don't only keep this show ad free and sponsor free, but you also directly support other community
34
00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:59.860
funded Bitcoin projects, which is pretty cool. It's kind of almost like a reverse sponsorship.
35
00:03:01.120 --> 00:03:05.995
So I'm pretty excited about that. I've been told by the various podcasting 2.0 teams
36
00:03:06.455 --> 00:03:07.595
that I've had
37
00:03:08.055 --> 00:03:09.674
I'm pushing the splits
38
00:03:10.140 --> 00:03:14.400
to their limit. It is the most splits for a podcasting 2.0 podcast.
39
00:03:15.660 --> 00:03:16.800
And as a result,
40
00:03:17.635 --> 00:03:30.620
they told me the boost might be slower, but I like pushing the limits. So we will see how it goes. You freaks test out the boost, and we'll reassess next week if I have to remove some projects. But I'd actually like to add some projects, so, hopefully, that's not the case.
41
00:03:31.720 --> 00:03:33.739
Let's get to reading the top boost.
42
00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.705
We have the highest boost dispatch has ever gotten from athut.
43
00:03:38.325 --> 00:03:40.345
He says, internal gratitude, Matt.
44
00:03:40.645 --> 00:03:42.665
Can't tell you the impact you've had.
45
00:03:43.180 --> 00:03:48.720
Much love to you. Stay humble. If you make it to Vancouver Island, I have a bottle of whiskey with your name on that.
46
00:03:49.180 --> 00:03:53.394
That also goes to all plebs listening. Shout out to Hut for 210,000
47
00:03:53.935 --> 00:03:54.435
sats.
48
00:03:54.894 --> 00:04:02.275
We have our boy, Chad Farrow, who gave 10,000 sats without a message. I think he was testing out if the splits worked, and they did.
49
00:04:03.010 --> 00:04:05.269
We have CA Danner saying,
50
00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:07.989
MBK is never boring.
51
00:04:08.530 --> 00:04:16.155
She's awesome. She's actually got some artwork in Bitcoin Park, that we have up on display and available for sale, which is pretty cool.
52
00:04:16.615 --> 00:04:28.590
We also have Roughneck Miner coming in at 10,000 sats. Always great signal coming from the dispatch. If you're ever in North Dakota, hit me up. I'd be happy to host you and any others you bring to all the ND Bitcoiners. Let's get a meet up going.
53
00:04:29.035 --> 00:04:30.575
So those are some of the top boostograms.
54
00:04:31.115 --> 00:04:33.695
What's pretty cool is if you open fountain podcasts
55
00:04:34.155 --> 00:04:37.935
or other podcasting 2 point o apps, you can see all the boostograms yourself,
56
00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:39.780
in their entirety.
57
00:04:40.479 --> 00:04:45.939
Also, huge shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat, both on Matrix and through Twitter
58
00:04:46.479 --> 00:04:47.060
and Twitch.
59
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I know I told you, Freaks,
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that I heard from a lot of you that you wanted a YouTube stream.
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I did attempt
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to upload all the the whole archive of Ciel dispatch and start streaming onto YouTube as well to give you that option,
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but they banned my account saying that it promoted scams, spams,
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and deceptive content.
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So don't hold your breath on that one. I did press that appeal button, but they can go fuck themselves.
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You can obviously watch the show on Twitch, as I said, bitcoin tv.com.
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I'm also posting the archives to Rumble and Telegram,
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and you can listen in any podcasting app. My favorite that's not podcasting 2.0 is antennapod by just searching
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CITIL dispatch
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in that app. If you do not have stats to spare, it does help the show if you press the subscribe button, leave a review. Thank you. I do appreciate it.
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Okay. With all that out of the way, I know it's a little bit slower this time, but we've been having a fun day here at Bitcoin Park,
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so my mind is a little bit all over the place.
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We have good friend, ride or die freak, and repeat guest, Tony here in the studio. How's it going, Tony? Let's fucking go.
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kind of incredible what you guys have got here. You know, I was in Nashville, I guess, last,
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4 or 5 months ago.
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You guys had a solid operation. I was impressed even back then. And,
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yeah, let me just say this is pretty amazing.
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a door close and chairs moving, that was Rod being extremely loud as we started the podcast. That's also why I was a little bit distracted.
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This room is extremely soundproofed, but it does not account for Rod entering
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while we are starting the recording.
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formerly Square, and we're gonna talk about lightning privacy. Tony was actually on the show
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for dispatch
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21. I think we we spent over 2 hours specifically on Lightning Privacy. So if you haven't listened to that, consider listening to that after this dispatch.
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Tony has the honor of having both episode 21 69.
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Completely coincidence too. I did not plan this. And you have a couple others. There was one, that I just
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shield today that was 57, which was the crowdfunding one, which I thought was really good. Yeah. I met, Sat Sail in Austin for a hackathon,
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We just randomly stumbled into each other. I was like, hey. You were Tony on Citadel Dispatch. Right? We had never met each other in in person. He's I still haven't met him yet. He was, like, locked in Australia for a while. Apparently, he got out and made it to Austin.
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So it was kinda beautiful to be, like, wow. Okay.
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You know, I I don't get the honor of having, you know, so many podcasts. So, like, every now and then,
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someone will come up to me. It's kinda surreal. They'll be, like, yeah. You're you're Tony. Right? You're you're on Citadel Dispatch Let's fucking go. All the time.
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And it's kind of an honor. It's kinda crazy to see, like, especially on the topic of privacy. You probably get this way more,
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and quite often, but, like, just normal people that care about privacy coming up to you and saying thank you for your work and privacy.
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Especially since when you publicly talk about privacy, you hurt your own privacy.
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It's not easy. It's like the privacy paradox, right? Like, the more you know, you have to lose and the information you leak out, but then you're still doing it anyways. It's like this, paradox inside your head,
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kind of fucks with you a little bit sometimes.
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So just to the freaks, I mean, I know we're all still getting used to me deviating
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from the usual dispatch schedule rather than every Tuesday. We are doing,
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whenever I have good guests that are in person in the studio because I like the in person rips.
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We actually have a massive meetup.
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Looks like over 200 people are gonna be here next week,
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including a huge contingent from the Austin side.
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So just you know,
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I don't know if you wanna use Twitch. I don't really wanna tell you to get a Twitch account. It is controlled by Amazon.
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But if you join our matrix channel, which you can go to at citildispatch.com,
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and click the chat button. I will notify people when we go live,
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try and give you some heads up,
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but there's gonna be a lot of fucking rips over the next
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week and a half because so many people are gonna be in town. It's just gonna kinda be nonstop. I'm gonna overload you.
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And then there might be a little bit of a break after that because I'm going to Colorado for the beef initiative to do
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to help ranchers learn how to use Bitcoin and for them to help me become a wannabe rancher.
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So I'm pretty excited about that. I think I will have a mobile recording set up, so there might be some seal dispatches during that. But just, anyway, I just wanna give you a heads up that there's gonna be a bunch of dispatches. Go through them at your leisure in your favorite podcasting app. Join us in the live chat. However you wanna do that, you do that.
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Okay. So with all that said, Tony
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and, also, I imagine Tony is gonna pee on a lot of those too, so get used to his voice.
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Tony, so decentralized identifiers,
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DIDs,
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they get a lot of hype.
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I know you're pretty bullish on them. You wanna you wanna give us your best shill? Why should we care? Yeah.
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You know, this this isn't exactly the hill I wanna die on on decentralized identifiers. He's dying on this hill. I'm dying on this hill right now. But,
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honestly, like, I see it more as a means to an end.
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As as far as, like, progressing
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towards a more decentralized web, a real decentralized web, none of that crypto bullshit.
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I don't, like, quite care exactly how we get there and exactly how it looks like. I know there's a lot of different options, a lot of different proposals, some competing, some not.
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But all that said, I do I am pretty bullish on decentralized identifiers, and I think,
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you know, there's some trade offs. But I think all in all,
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No one controls them. No one
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except for you. No one else controls them.
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That'd be pretty bad if you didn't control them. Yeah. You just there's a bunch of IDs out there. You don't even you can't even touch them.
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Only you control them.
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They allow you to
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interact with other decentralized identities as well.
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You can spin up a whole bunch of decentralized entities too, so it's not like your own, like, single,
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digital identity that, like, tracks you and, you know, you have to use 1 did to sign in to every services. So it's, there are some privacy benefits to using decentralized identifiers at its core.
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It's not just like one big surveillance network and one big, you know, ID tracking system.
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But really it's just for being able to coordinate with other other people that have DIDs, be able to chat with them, communication,
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access their services that they may offer.
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And you can have a whole array of self sovereign identity stacks, like, on your own Raspberry Pi. You can have it redundantly also in various clouds too. Like, I mean, you stream to both,
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Bitcoin TV,
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and and and YouTube and and other Not to YouTube. Not to YouTube right now. Yeah. Twitch, Twitter, bitcoin tv.com.
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Exactly. And you do that so in case one goes down or one gets censored, you have backups. Right? Well, the whole that concept can also apply to dits as well.
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So I consider it more of just like, you know, represents a person, but it doesn't,
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you know, that's not the whole picture. You can spin up a whole bunch of identities, and you'll you control them all, and no one no one can take that away from you. So I guess if we're gonna talk about DIDs, which
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what are what is our current ID process? Right. Right?
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Which is
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we are we literally you go to your local government,
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and you get permission from them, and they give you this document usually in the form of a card.
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And
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you, you know, you have to go through whatever identity procedures they require from you.
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They take a picture of you. They put it on the card, yadayada yada.
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So
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when you have those IDs,
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then you try and interact with digital services.
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And they
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if they require ID verification, they do
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the standard KYC procedure that a lot of Bitcoiners
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have turned a blind eye on but have gotten used to, which is, you know, upload your your passport or your driver's license,
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maybe take a selfie,
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put in your address, your email, your phone number, Social Security number,
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firstborn child's blood type.
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You gotta go through that whole procedure, and then they do their own, like, fraud thing on the side
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to try and prove that that's actually you because there's there is a shit ton of fraud that fakes the KYC system, or they use stolen credentials, or they use bought credentials. People don't realize there's, like, marketplaces where you can just buy ID information for these KYC services or already KYC'd accounts.
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So with with digital IDs, the promise is
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a more open system
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or decentralized identities
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in general. But I I guess, I like calling them digital IDs, but I guess it's not as,
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I like to think of it as, like, a public key, private key pair similar to your Bitcoin keys,
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that you and only you control
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that can be cryptographically verified,
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like ownership of a Bitcoin key can without giving up control of it. So it can be instantly proven that you actually have control of this ID.
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And then
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the way I understand the main proposal for it, which is coming out
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of block now, formerly Square, but previously
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at Microsoft during their ion project because
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the lead dev CSU Wildcat went from Microsoft to Block, but I guess there's a bit of a partnership there,
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is so you then you have that base layer
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decentralized
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ID,
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and then different participants
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can sign
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proof from their own ID
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that
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you are who you say you are or
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a different information about you. Right? So they can,
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and that could be Tony signing mine saying, like, Matt's a good dude, or that could be the New York government saying, Matt's a resident of New York,
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or that could be Facebook saying,
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Matt's a Facebook user, and this is an account.
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Or it could be
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any type of service.
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Airbnb could say, you know, Matt has rented this many Airbnbs,
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and he's always been great or whatever.
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And different services can choose
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how much weight they put for those different identifier,
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different
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even a separate system in in and of itself.
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All of the stuff around this person says this thing about another person,
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all of that is along the lines of verifiable credentials.
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That's actually how I got my start in the Bitcoin space back in 2018.
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Joining some of these w three communities
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and
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working at a company where that was our bread and butter just to verify what credential aspect. And it and it really is. It's it's not you don't need deeds
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for verifiable credentials, so that's why it came out first.
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There's been previous,
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you know, ID system, like like Open Badges and and a few others that are you know, could be centralized or not.
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Verifiable credentials in and of itself are not opinionated about
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what kind of ID you use to represent a person. So much of what you kinda had said there is on the verifiable credential side, but they work hand in hand with digital identities because
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exactly or decentralized identities exactly for that reason because you may not actually have any other information about a decentralized identity
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besides, like, some very basic information such as keys.
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There's you can the cool thing is you can list many different keys inside your digital your decentralized identity.
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All it is really is and it's so funny too when I hear people get scared of DIDs and the way it's heading. It's literally just a process for taking an ID. So, like, did colon something colon 12345.
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Taking that and getting a JSON document out of it. And then that JSON document has common properties such as,
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a list of public keys, and it could be any public you know, it can support many different types of public keys too for different crypto. Like, you know, some keys are meant more for signing, some keys are meant for for encryption.
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You can delegate those keys too so you can have you can say this key is, like, my master key. It can do all the things like delegation, authentication, authorization, and I think there's a few other property types for keys and, capabilities.
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Or you can have one key that, like, you keep on your mobile phone and that, you know, that's good for logging in to websites or something. So you have a list of different keys. So it's not just like one key,
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which actually kinda makes things simple. You can, like, scatter keys across all your devices,
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but then you can also have,
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a list of services that you support. And to me, that's the big one. I often get, like, what's the difference between PGP and DIDS? Like, you know, you take a key and it represents an identity.
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And I I think And we've had PGP keys forever. Exactly. And I think there's 2 main
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2 big distinctions to me that really
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changes the game is the fact that you could have a process, like, they call it a did method, but you could have a process for taking an ID, a certain type of ID, DID,
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and turning that into adjacent document, and everyone across the world sees the same picture.
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And, you know, there's this, Bitcoin based,
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that caught eye on as as you kinda said Microsoft had kinda started with
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Daniel started it under Microsoft.
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I think most people from Microsoft working on that project or around that project has have actually left. It was way more than just Daniel too. I think they I think they all scattered after that,
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after Microsoft started getting
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super ESG woke about Bitcoin.
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But, to me, the big distinctions are you could have the Bitcoin global state that we do have,
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through the use of Opera turns.
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And
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me and then another person on the other side of the world could have the latest state for someone's, you know, JSON document that represents
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their keys and services that they support.
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That's the big one. And then the second one is the fact that you can list services inside of your,
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identity too. And with services, I mean things like,
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communication.
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You can have, like, your Dropbox is one of your links so people can go view your public pictures if they wanted to.
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Literally any service, and that's just kinda why I love Dids too. It's, like, not opinionated.
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You can have literally any app and service that you have on the Internet today could fit inside the DIT model because you've listed as a service endpoint.
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And then some of the web 5 stuff that they're working on too is even abstracts that further. So, like, there's so many different applications you can build on top of it just from the fact that you have,
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you can resolve the ID
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from anywhere.
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And and, you know, if you're using Ion, you know, you just need access to public Bitcoin blockchain,
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and then the fact that you have keys and services listed inside of that document. And from there, you can do communication and anything else, and you can do public key, you know, cryptography and encryption and signing,
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just from those,
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The
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so the way I look at Dids,
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I would not say I'm I said earlier, maybe I'm a skeptic. I wouldn't say I'm a skeptic.
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I'm I think someone needs to push back on the hype a little bit
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because,
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and that doesn't mean I'm not bullish on dids. It doesn't mean I don't want dids. I think they are a
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massive improvement on how current identity is handled.
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But the way I look at it is actually similar to the way I look at Bitcoin, which I'm extremely bullish on. Right? Like, I've dedicated my life
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to working in the Bitcoin space, right, and supporting
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Bitcoin projects and and working on education and whatnot,
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which is that it's a tool,
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but, ultimately, it depends on how you use that tool.
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And the way I look at Bitcoin is I do think a large
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majority of people
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will end up using Bitcoin
276
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in a very compliant,
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permissioned
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way using centralized
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regulated parties.
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And with Dids,
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I see a similar trajectory where I see
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people using DIDS that are signed by Facebook, people using DIDS that are signed by whatever government,
283
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they are subject to. Right? And
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the concern I have is that with Bitcoin,
285
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we have
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the the financial surveillance mechanisms
287
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are already in place
288
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in all standard digital
289
00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:49.159
payment methods. Right? You use Venmo. You use PayPal. You use your credit card. You use your bank.
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They're completely surveilled and tracked. They're sold to countless third parties,
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data brokers.
292
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They're leaked.
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00:23:57.790 --> 00:24:05.410
They're shared with governments. Like, financial surveillance Panopticon is already here. So people use Bitcoin in a financially surveilled way,
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you know, it that's a continuation of the status quo, but at least
295
00:24:11.395 --> 00:24:12.934
a minority of people
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can learn, educate,
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take control themselves, and use Bitcoin in a private way.
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00:24:18.620 --> 00:24:20.559
With Dids, my concern is
299
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that we're speeding up this Panopticon
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digital ID because we're setting up a robust system
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where, you know,
302
00:24:29.185 --> 00:24:31.525
a government just simply needs to, like,
303
00:24:31.860 --> 00:24:36.920
bolt into the system, or Facebook simply needs to bolt into the system, and they have it all ready to go.
304
00:24:38.875 --> 00:24:43.295
What do you think about that concern? Is that like, is that a real concern? Or Oh,
305
00:24:44.075 --> 00:24:49.779
306
00:24:50.159 --> 00:24:50.980
already happening.
307
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:54.100
Some of the
308
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:00.635
it's funny. Some of the biggest funders of a lot of decentralized identity projects and verifiable credential projects
309
00:25:00.935 --> 00:25:02.635
are actually the DHS themselves.
310
00:25:03.495 --> 00:25:07.790
Department of Homeland Security. Yep. Their Silicon Valley initiative where they
311
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kind of throw money at startups, don't take any equity, they just throw money at startups and ask them to solve different problems, and they'll have,
312
00:25:16.095 --> 00:25:20.595
like, a use case that they're trying to solve. So as early back, I think, as 2019,
313
00:25:21.535 --> 00:25:23.315
they've been funding some of these projects
314
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around verifiable credentials and decentralized
315
00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.260
identity. So it's already happening, and they've already,
316
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:42.135
I've been in on some of those meetings too. And the the, you know, one of the times that we all kinda ask the question, I'm like, okay, so, you know, we're doing a lot of like DID development and we're trying to create this interoperable system here.
317
00:25:42.860 --> 00:25:44.080
You know, what what,
318
00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:49.680
Blockchain or or, you know, application type do you want, to kinda see your,
319
00:25:50.540 --> 00:25:52.240
some of your use cases. And
320
00:25:53.075 --> 00:25:56.375
the answer we got back from that was basically, oh,
321
00:25:57.315 --> 00:26:02.710
the government will run the identities for everyone. Right. They just want the interoperability,
322
00:26:03.169 --> 00:26:07.750
and they want the ecosystem. They want all the hard work that the government doesn't do.
323
00:26:09.115 --> 00:26:14.655
And then they want us to build that, and then they're gonna interoperate with it, because everything's already using it. So
324
00:26:15.435 --> 00:26:19.410
what you bring up is a concern because it is actually literally what's happening.
325
00:26:20.510 --> 00:26:25.010
Do I think that we shouldn't still do it anyways because
326
00:26:25.705 --> 00:26:30.205
any good tech, if it's actually good tech, can be used for evil as well.
327
00:26:31.705 --> 00:26:35.970
But I think you have a point in, like, are we accelerating that,
328
00:26:36.430 --> 00:26:37.250
too fast?
329
00:26:38.030 --> 00:26:41.410
But the alternative would be, okay, if we go too slow,
330
00:26:41.825 --> 00:26:44.725
then they're just gonna roll out a a comp I mean
331
00:26:45.184 --> 00:26:48.405
332
00:26:50.300 --> 00:26:51.680
the last 2 years
333
00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:57.520
was an attempt to attack the movement of individuals around the world Yep.
334
00:26:58.325 --> 00:27:03.865
In the in the name of COVID response. Right? They had what has essentially amounted to movement licenses,
335
00:27:05.284 --> 00:27:07.225
in these in these new
336
00:27:07.570 --> 00:27:09.030
health passports. Right?
337
00:27:10.450 --> 00:27:12.710
And the way they chose to implement that,
338
00:27:13.970 --> 00:27:17.785
you know, the most powerful government on Earth, the US government,
339
00:27:18.325 --> 00:27:20.825
chose to print out paper index cards
340
00:27:21.365 --> 00:27:24.505
and have you write your name down. And, you know,
341
00:27:24.850 --> 00:27:26.630
I my understanding is that
342
00:27:27.010 --> 00:27:28.870
it was a felony to fake them,
343
00:27:29.570 --> 00:27:32.150
so no one should, you know, go out and break the law.
344
00:27:32.690 --> 00:27:33.190
But
345
00:27:34.045 --> 00:27:43.610
a lot of people fake them. They were very easy to fake. And they were just basically relying on that scare tactic of if you get caught, like, we're gonna throw the book at you and make an example of you.
346
00:27:45.830 --> 00:27:48.090
If there was a robust protocol
347
00:27:48.550 --> 00:27:50.330
ready to go for them on DIDS.
348
00:27:51.575 --> 00:27:57.195
349
00:27:59.050 --> 00:28:08.195
I was in transition out of the job that I was using verifiable credentials and DIDs for. And actually, I was in progress of working with some of the, DHS people,
350
00:28:08.755 --> 00:28:12.615
at that time. And whenever some of whenever COVID happened,
351
00:28:14.195 --> 00:28:14.695
immediately,
352
00:28:15.910 --> 00:28:22.650
so many people from the w three c community were, like, posted on the mailing list. Oh, here's how we can apply COVID
353
00:28:23.270 --> 00:28:27.515
vax passes to decentralized identities and verifiable credentials. And, like, overnight,
354
00:28:27.815 --> 00:28:34.370
I saw, like, startups launch their, like, web page about how they're gonna do tracking to walk into a grocery store,
355
00:28:34.830 --> 00:28:41.465
using Dids. And they're like, oh, this is this is using this technology. And it made me fucking sick. It made me so sick. I was like, fuck this community.
356
00:28:42.325 --> 00:28:51.340
I ever I can't believe everyone's going along with it. This is literally surveillance. This is literally what we're trying to stop, and the argument at the time was sort of like well, this we're just letting people choose.
357
00:28:51.960 --> 00:29:02.355
Right. We're giving people options. We're giving people options. At least they can own some of their data. At least they can hold on to one of their keys. It could be worse. It could be worse.
358
00:29:04.090 --> 00:29:15.865
But, yeah, it it it they would a 100% use it, and they would try. And if there's already an interoperable system in place, they're gonna use it. But it's like, if we don't build it right now, they're gonna build a very shitty deep digital identity
359
00:29:16.805 --> 00:29:20.345
version of it. And I don't know. Maybe we can kind of go along,
360
00:29:21.179 --> 00:29:33.585
you know, quite far before they catch up to some of the innovation and some of the self sovereign stacks that we can build in the meantime. Because I mean, rolling something out at scale, like right now okay. Let's say the did spec, I think it just got recommended,
361
00:29:34.125 --> 00:29:34.865
last week,
362
00:29:35.325 --> 00:29:38.225
as a w three c recommendation. I think it finally went through.
363
00:29:39.899 --> 00:29:43.980
Okay. Let's all start now. Let's see what we can build in a year or 2.
364
00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:51.115
And I bet you we beat out the government. So it's like, let's see, let's see what cool stuff we can build in the meantime.
365
00:29:52.215 --> 00:29:55.820
Are they still gonna use it? Yes. But, you know, China doesn't need
366
00:29:56.220 --> 00:29:59.440
decentralized a decentralized identity spec to be doing
367
00:29:59.740 --> 00:30:03.759
some digital ID rollout over there. So it's like they're gonna do it regardless.
368
00:30:05.485 --> 00:30:07.825
At least let's hold hold one of the keys.
369
00:30:09.645 --> 00:30:15.330
You know, and maybe fight back. I might joke a little bit, but, you know So, I mean, first of all, I have two things there.
370
00:30:16.270 --> 00:30:19.410
371
00:30:19.790 --> 00:30:20.190
The
372
00:30:21.795 --> 00:30:22.535
first off,
373
00:30:23.395 --> 00:30:26.215
it's it's unfortunate that that YouTube
374
00:30:27.315 --> 00:30:30.455
banned the dispatch channel after 5 days for
375
00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:34.669
supposedly promoting scams. Was that after the Monero one? Because
376
00:30:35.610 --> 00:30:37.070
because I didn't know
377
00:30:38.304 --> 00:30:42.565
that we were gonna be talking about vaccine passports, so they would have definitely banned the account,
378
00:30:43.024 --> 00:30:48.700
once that's this stream went live anyway. Oh, yeah. So, anyway, YouTube can go fuck themselves. But,
379
00:30:50.120 --> 00:30:55.100
and I'm sorry, freaks, for those freaks that prefer YouTube. It is what it is. I press the appeal button.
380
00:30:55.865 --> 00:30:59.485
Don't hold your breath. The second thing is, do you see a lot of
381
00:31:00.265 --> 00:31:03.405
there's definitely some I mean, I've never been in the verifiable
382
00:31:03.860 --> 00:31:12.595
credential community, but there's definitely a lot of similarities there with what we see in Bitcoin, where you see, like, the people that are like, oh, we need regulatory clarity or, you know, AOPP.
383
00:31:12.895 --> 00:31:20.355
Like, the address verification method is just an option. It just makes it easier for users. It's opt in. They don't have to do it. Like, we see a lot of that
384
00:31:21.010 --> 00:31:22.950
in the Bitcoin community as well.
385
00:31:23.890 --> 00:31:24.289
386
00:31:24.770 --> 00:31:29.350
387
00:31:30.415 --> 00:31:31.715
It's how you use it.
388
00:31:32.335 --> 00:31:42.520
389
00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:44.360
what it could give
390
00:31:44.740 --> 00:31:45.880
each side. So
391
00:31:46.664 --> 00:31:48.684
the people that are actually for
392
00:31:49.304 --> 00:31:50.684
more regulation and enforcement,
393
00:31:51.784 --> 00:32:02.040
they may like it because now instead of taking a picture of a fake ID and uploading it to some service and having them, like, do a check you know, have another service process whether or not that image was
394
00:32:02.420 --> 00:32:02.920
authenticate,
395
00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:04.715
like, authentic or not,
396
00:32:05.195 --> 00:32:08.975
We get better we could get better in enforcement on the regulation,
397
00:32:09.355 --> 00:32:14.660
the regulations that do exist, like driver's license and stuff like that. You know? Not, I guess,
398
00:32:15.360 --> 00:32:21.060
not all and maybe this is the hill I die die on, but, like, maybe not all like you're dying on this side. Regulations.
399
00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:29.345
Like, I'm not saying we should have zero regulations ever, like, e even under an anarchy system. What regulations do you agree with? I don't know.
400
00:32:29.725 --> 00:32:38.549
Being older than 10 years old at least to to drive a car, I mean, like, there's, you know, maybe some loose level regulations that we have. Maybe better state enforcement
401
00:32:39.225 --> 00:32:42.205
instead of federal enforcement, but, you know, maybe I don't know.
402
00:32:44.265 --> 00:32:46.845
403
00:32:47.350 --> 00:32:50.010
404
00:32:50.470 --> 00:32:52.970
405
00:32:53.429 --> 00:32:53.830
406
00:32:54.309 --> 00:32:55.830
But then on the reverse side,
407
00:32:56.309 --> 00:33:11.650
it is a tool for be for people to be able to have a lot like, how many times have you logged into a website and you hated the fact that you had to provide a email at all? Like, you know, I Right. I hate that. It's hard to even get a private email. I mean, Twitter is a perfect example. It's the only social media I use.
408
00:33:13.865 --> 00:33:17.085
409
00:33:17.465 --> 00:33:18.205
in that,
410
00:33:18.745 --> 00:33:27.980
first of all, you need an email. It's hard to get an email that's not attached to your identity. And a lot of times, they'll lock your account if you don't have a phone number, and it's hard to get a phone number without identity.
411
00:33:28.485 --> 00:33:28.985
Yeah.
412
00:33:29.765 --> 00:33:36.025
So I I think it does suck as logins. Yeah. Exactly. And then there's another thing. There's there's the,
413
00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:39.330
like, in the broader crypto community,
414
00:33:42.910 --> 00:33:54.155
we have Masaki in the comments saying use burner emails, Kek. Yeah, you can use burner emails. I'm just saying it's getting harder and harder to easily access. I mean, what if you want what if you want a service that you want to use again?
415
00:33:54.490 --> 00:34:06.615
Right. Oh, but the one time use emails, like, a lot of times Twitter will fuck you on that too, because they'll be like, we just sent an email confirmation to unlock your account. I don't have control that email anymore. But what I was gonna say is there's that company,
416
00:34:07.715 --> 00:34:14.770
what the broader crypto space is looking at is, like, there's this company that raised a shit ton of money from Anderson Horowitz and a bunch of other,
417
00:34:17.150 --> 00:34:17.650
prosurveillance
418
00:34:18.110 --> 00:34:18.930
venture capitalists,
419
00:34:19.630 --> 00:34:20.130
and
420
00:34:20.510 --> 00:34:21.010
they
421
00:34:21.714 --> 00:34:26.855
allow they have you sign in with your full financial transaction history. Like, you sign in with your ETH account.
422
00:34:27.155 --> 00:34:29.655
So, like, if you're talking about, like, dystopian shit,
423
00:34:30.570 --> 00:34:35.310
it's not just coming from the government side. Like, the private sector is also proposing even worse shit.
424
00:34:35.850 --> 00:34:37.630
I can't even like, can you imagine,
425
00:34:38.865 --> 00:34:53.155
426
00:34:54.035 --> 00:35:06.430
you know, there's bag lists and people that are rich lists, and they hope, they hope for more proof of staking systems and stuff like that. So We had Chips Ahoy in the comments on Twitch saying, I was driving a 10 goddamn commie.
427
00:35:07.849 --> 00:35:12.565
Well, no. If you're 10, that's fine. You know? When I said older, you know, as long as you're 10 or old.
428
00:35:13.825 --> 00:35:16.244
Maybe I just said older older than the 10. I'm sorry.
429
00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:20.920
But it's,
430
00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:33.525
I don't know. I mean, at least you can, I forgot what we were saying there, but at least you can kind of, like, log in to websites without, like, using some Twitter login auth or Right? You know, at least the service that you wanna log in again at some point.
431
00:35:34.005 --> 00:35:43.069
So. It sounds like a strictly better system. Right. But you could argue on both sides, but you you do see people on the left want, like, more regulations than they kind of like more regulated
432
00:35:43.575 --> 00:35:52.315
enforcement, and you can do that better with digital signatures and stuff like that. On the other hand, at least I can use a website and have some of my own identity,
433
00:35:53.240 --> 00:36:06.905
that can even live beyond that website into a different one. You know, kinda like Twitter does their off stuff, so you can have your Twitter account log in to it other way. You can do the same thing with decentralized identities too. So it's a way to kinda persist your data.
434
00:36:07.765 --> 00:36:12.160
You can even, like, interrupt your data too amongst different websites. Like, if you have,
435
00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:14.580
your data store on your server
436
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:18.100
at home, like, on your Raspberry Pi or something up with a list of tweets,
437
00:36:19.244 --> 00:36:29.070
you can go into like, I I love the idea of, like, dumb front ends. Like, front ends in this, like, DID world that just, like, access individual data stores and pulls them down
438
00:36:29.950 --> 00:36:39.164
and creates a beautiful UI from it, and we all compete on creating beautiful UIs and a beautiful user experience. We're all in we're all working with the same data.
439
00:36:39.704 --> 00:36:42.045
It's just about creating a better user experience,
440
00:36:42.904 --> 00:36:47.380
for that data, and that data doesn't list, that data doesn't live on AWS's
441
00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:50.980
servers and and Microsoft's servers and and all those places.
442
00:36:51.520 --> 00:36:55.145
Ideally, they live on your Raspberry Pi. But someone viewing
443
00:36:55.445 --> 00:36:56.505
your Twitter account,
444
00:36:56.805 --> 00:37:02.425
pulling tweets from your Raspberry Pi looks the exact same as me pulling, you know, Jeff Bezos'
445
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:07.819
Twitter account where he keeps his tweets on AWS. So I like the fact that we can have options,
446
00:37:08.680 --> 00:37:10.380
under a kind of DID system.
447
00:37:10.855 --> 00:37:15.035
And, you know, at least, you know, some of the options are very self sovereign friendly.
448
00:37:15.414 --> 00:37:17.835
449
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:20.660
one could argue that the Internet
450
00:37:21.040 --> 00:37:24.980
brought about the greatest surveillance mechanism the world has ever seen.
451
00:37:25.935 --> 00:37:30.435
Bitcoin might bring in, you know, surveillance money for a large amount of people.
452
00:37:30.895 --> 00:37:37.850
Dids might bring in surveillance digital IDs for a a large amount of people. But, ultimately, all three allow
453
00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:41.930
sovereign individuals to take control over their lives, and
454
00:37:42.734 --> 00:37:48.755
it it empowers them. And and I I would say that most people would say that the Internet was a massive net benefit.
455
00:37:49.055 --> 00:38:01.654
I think most Bitcoiners would say that Bitcoin is a massive net benefit, and I think we will see that play out. And it's probably the same exact thing with Dits. Right? Yeah. I think so. I I think I one of the things I like to say is, like, you know, Bitcoin fixed
456
00:38:01.954 --> 00:38:03.335
457
00:38:04.035 --> 00:38:06.775
But we still have an identity problem that we have to fix.
458
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:12.500
Like, we can't live our lives with 0 reputation anywhere and no identities, no trust
459
00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:13.540
in anybody.
460
00:38:14.319 --> 00:38:15.540
I think even under
461
00:38:16.035 --> 00:38:25.335
462
00:38:25.640 --> 00:38:26.140
interoperable
463
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:34.380
identity system. Right? At least world, at least Yeah, at least in this digital world. Because if you're talking like an anarchist
464
00:38:36.815 --> 00:38:38.115
world filled with citadels,
465
00:38:38.655 --> 00:38:40.275
like, you're talking about, like, local
466
00:38:40.575 --> 00:38:41.075
economies
467
00:38:41.375 --> 00:38:43.954
and all these different independent trade
468
00:38:44.530 --> 00:38:46.150
agreements and stuff like that. And
469
00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:49.430
you you need some kind of interoperable identity
470
00:38:49.810 --> 00:38:51.430
layer in there as well. Right?
471
00:38:51.775 --> 00:38:56.195
472
00:38:56.495 --> 00:39:06.320
You're still gonna probably wanna do trade with, you know, the the Austin citadels. Gonna wanna trade with the Nashville citadel. Occasionally, you guys are gonna wanna beef. We're gonna want your what you guys do here, chicken.
473
00:39:06.940 --> 00:39:14.660
474
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:18.440
But, yes, there will be trade between the 2. Yeah. We need your chicken still.
475
00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:22.339
We'll figure out something to give you. You must have a lot of chicken and
476
00:39:22.914 --> 00:39:26.134
Probably. But you guys have hot chicken. Yeah. Well, we can send you spices.
477
00:39:27.555 --> 00:39:32.214
478
00:39:32.980 --> 00:39:34.040
privatized companies,
479
00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:39.800
you know, we're we're still gonna need a way to contact somebody else, and, hopefully, it's not always through Twitter.
480
00:39:40.375 --> 00:40:06.805
481
00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:15.320
482
00:40:15.905 --> 00:40:24.920
verifiable proof from the government, such as our age. You know, there's some basic things that kinda help, but, like, age and and whether you can drive and things like that. But,
483
00:40:26.040 --> 00:40:31.340
484
00:40:31.904 --> 00:40:36.704
485
00:40:37.184 --> 00:40:42.510
I I don't wanna deal with, 10 year old idiots. I'm sorry, dude. I'm sorry for that guy in the comments. But,
486
00:40:43.530 --> 00:40:46.510
you're still gonna go to the DMV, but hopefully, ideally,
487
00:40:46.970 --> 00:40:48.430
I bring my own did
488
00:40:48.775 --> 00:40:52.635
with my own data and my own keys, and and it could be a Bitcoin based did.
489
00:40:53.095 --> 00:40:56.555
And I bring that to the DMV. And I said, okay. You know, I can drive,
490
00:40:56.920 --> 00:41:09.475
sign a verifiable credential, tell tell the whole world that, you know, and sign it to my DID and say that I can drive. And it doesn't and someone can go someone can walk in with Ethereum data. I don't I don't give a fuck, but they can sign their DID.
491
00:41:09.795 --> 00:41:17.839
You know, their verified credential specifying that their DID can drive. So we're still gonna have some level of proofs and attestations
492
00:41:18.220 --> 00:41:19.040
in this world,
493
00:41:19.819 --> 00:41:21.920
even from the government itself. But, ideally,
494
00:41:22.335 --> 00:41:28.995
it's from an ID that they can't just rip up and throw away. So you said this you said this term Bitcoin based did.
495
00:41:30.015 --> 00:41:30.915
496
00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:33.650
the ion proposal
497
00:41:34.109 --> 00:41:34.609
and
498
00:41:35.470 --> 00:41:38.770
what what CSU is continuing at at Block
499
00:41:39.145 --> 00:41:45.565
500
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.740
but it uses them in a little bit of a different way
501
00:41:49.040 --> 00:41:51.780
where it's not just one ID per op return.
502
00:41:52.319 --> 00:42:01.855
You can do up to 10,000 different ID operations. So it could be, like, updating your ID, updating the keys or services or whatever, or it could be adding a new one or deleting 1.
503
00:42:02.580 --> 00:42:06.280
But, essentially, you can have up to 10,000 in a single Bitcoin transaction.
504
00:42:06.900 --> 00:42:08.680
So that's already a huge improvement.
505
00:42:10.055 --> 00:42:14.075
But you basically do a Merkle tree hash and of of all the different
506
00:42:14.535 --> 00:42:15.275
did document,
507
00:42:15.895 --> 00:42:18.795
operations you wanna do, whether it's add or delete or update.
508
00:42:19.880 --> 00:42:26.300
You hash them all together. You put that into IPFS documents. So there's a little bit of IPFS play here.
509
00:42:26.680 --> 00:42:28.220
510
00:42:28.825 --> 00:42:39.060
I have no fucking idea. I just I don't think it's kinda works. Sorry. Continue. Yeah. It's it's some distributed hash. I know I know, Is it really robust? Like, it feels like it's not robust at all. It's it's really
511
00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:44.980
slow for most of the time for general users from So IPFS is, like, you can think of it as, like,
512
00:42:45.575 --> 00:42:50.954
a it's supposed to be a distributed Dropbox replacement. And it's content. You can use as cloud storage,
513
00:42:51.335 --> 00:42:53.994
514
00:42:54.930 --> 00:42:57.750
if all I have is a hash I'm pretty sure it's not robust.
515
00:42:58.130 --> 00:43:04.070
It's it, you know, it's it kinda works. The incentives make no sense to me. Yeah. There's there's there's,
516
00:43:04.424 --> 00:43:08.365
517
00:43:08.744 --> 00:43:09.244
518
00:43:10.345 --> 00:43:11.164
Ion is.
519
00:43:11.680 --> 00:43:18.500
Okay. So and that's another distinction too. We there's some people that say, like, oh, we don't need And by the way, IPFS stands for interplanetary
520
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:33.490
521
00:43:34.030 --> 00:43:37.970
522
00:43:38.545 --> 00:43:41.125
is that it is content addressable. So if I
523
00:43:41.505 --> 00:43:44.405
if I have a hash and it, like, represents an image,
524
00:43:44.785 --> 00:43:48.619
I can get, if anyone on IPFS is hosting that,
525
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.619
you can grab it from anyone, and you know it hasn't been altered.
526
00:43:52.975 --> 00:43:56.915
So the image you pull down from any node on the network that has it,
527
00:43:57.295 --> 00:44:06.599
you get that back. The problem is getting it from nodes that have it. If you're just like a random person and you have an IPFS file and you have it on your laptop or your node,
528
00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:11.295
and you shut it down and and, you know, go, you know, go off along your day,
529
00:44:11.755 --> 00:44:22.640
no one's gonna have access to that. Like, no one. Because you were, like, the only person hosting it. Right. So, like, as there's this whole, like, gossip system, I think, of, like, trying to figure out where the files are hosted.
530
00:44:23.260 --> 00:44:28.795
So it takes a while for a file to actually reflect it. Or you can pay some of these you can pin,
531
00:44:29.195 --> 00:44:36.175
files. You can pay some of these bigger nodes that already have that are already well connected with each other. So there's some sort of, like,
532
00:44:36.640 --> 00:44:38.099
distributed sense to it.
533
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.339
So presumably, you could keep this
534
00:44:40.640 --> 00:44:54.490
this DIV file anywhere. Right. And you'd and it's okay if, like, it can't be accessed at that point time. Right? Because you if you wanted to, I could create a did. But IPFS is, like, the easiest solution right now, at least. Yeah. And it it's at least a solution for,
535
00:44:55.190 --> 00:45:02.650
Ion currently. So they'll write and in theory, you could maybe have one where instead of an IPFS hash, if there is a better
536
00:45:03.025 --> 00:45:03.765
content addressable
537
00:45:04.464 --> 00:45:06.005
solution for hosting files,
538
00:45:06.625 --> 00:45:10.005
you write that off, return in it, but you can have the same kind of ion system,
539
00:45:10.330 --> 00:45:28.280
just not on IPFS, just on, like, I don't know, a better storage system. But the fact is, like, all decentralized storage systems kinda suck. Anyway Right. So, like, it's ION's, like, the best or sorry. IPFS is just the best we kinda got right now. There's another one. I think it's some DAG. It's called some DAG thing, I think, Synonym's doing, but,
540
00:45:28.900 --> 00:45:31.080
there's not, like, fantastic options
541
00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:40.435
for decentralized storage anyways. And then the incentives, yeah, the incentives don't really line up anyways. You can pay someone and trust that they're actually going to
542
00:45:40.735 --> 00:45:49.280
host it for you because they may decide not to or they may decide, you know, they may not be able to handle the load for how much traffic you think that file or something's gonna get.
543
00:45:50.085 --> 00:45:51.464
And that's why, like, Filecoin
544
00:45:51.924 --> 00:45:56.825
got birth, which is just it's just complete shit. Shit coin. A complete shit coin. But,
545
00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:17.050
I I I think it's fine. The incentives, like, if if if I ask, you know, Bitcoin TV to host my content and then they go away, well, all of a sudden their reputation's burned. I'm never gonna even remember again. So I think it's okay that there's some trust. Like, I may pay Bitcoin TV or I may pay someone else to host my IPFS file. There could presumably be providers
546
00:46:17.430 --> 00:46:22.224
that are getting paid probably with Sats. Yeah. And you don't need some, like, cryptographic
547
00:46:22.525 --> 00:46:39.275
atomic proof that they're gonna do it. You just say, well, if they ever stop, I'm never I'm gonna leave their And then in simple speak, where the Bitcoin chain comes in is it basically proves integrity of that file Mhmm. In the most secure ledger the world has ever seen. Right. And especially at that point in time So you're not trusting
548
00:46:40.055 --> 00:46:42.075
549
00:46:42.535 --> 00:46:47.515
with the integrity of the file because you can confirm it with the hash that's on chain. Exactly.
550
00:46:48.580 --> 00:47:12.600
551
00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:14.540
There's, like,
552
00:47:14.935 --> 00:47:17.755
a 100 different did methods. Most of them are shit coins,
553
00:47:18.295 --> 00:47:24.319
for a way that they anchor identity to a blockchain, but you don't need a blockchain at all. That's also like a common misconception
554
00:47:24.619 --> 00:47:27.119
is that, oh, why would you spam Bitcoin's blockchain?
555
00:47:27.740 --> 00:47:34.395
Putting this on Bitcoin, you don't like, did suck. They don't, you know, we don't need identity on a blockchain. So okay, cool. You don't,
556
00:47:35.175 --> 00:47:38.234
557
00:47:38.560 --> 00:47:46.100
It's important. Okay. There's And they're paying a fee anyway for the transaction, so it's not spam. Yeah. It's not it's not spam. What like,
558
00:47:46.445 --> 00:47:50.465
I mean, fees are not non existent on Bitcoin. What do we care? Right.
559
00:47:51.005 --> 00:47:52.705
560
00:47:53.405 --> 00:48:08.615
index op returns anyway. So it kind of it kinda saves a little bit. They don't get indexed in our TX. If fees go up on Bitcoin, then you can further optimize in the future. Right. And then right now, the cap is 10,000 operations per op return too. So you can do a lot of different,
561
00:48:09.015 --> 00:48:09.994
identity updates.
562
00:48:10.375 --> 00:48:13.194
And then maybe, you know, if the if the fees did get outrageous,
563
00:48:13.830 --> 00:48:19.210
I believe that's just like a node imp like an ion implementation. They could probably just raise that if they needed to.
564
00:48:19.750 --> 00:48:21.610
Presumably, there's some limit somewhere.
565
00:48:22.335 --> 00:48:22.994
Yeah. It's
566
00:48:23.295 --> 00:48:38.690
the reason they have that limit is because they don't want because there are IPFS files that each ion node is gonna want to hold on to. They don't have to. Each Ion node can my Ion node can decide to only store documents for my identity.
567
00:48:39.494 --> 00:48:41.994
And that's the cool thing. I can forever store
568
00:48:42.454 --> 00:48:51.259
my identity on IPFS and, like, close my laptop and, like, or maybe, like, print it off or something, or I don't know. But I could, like, close my laptop and, you know,
569
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:55.740
no one would be able if if I was the only eye on the IPFS note that had
570
00:48:56.105 --> 00:48:58.125
some of my document files on IPFS
571
00:48:58.505 --> 00:48:59.005
572
00:48:59.545 --> 00:49:03.600
573
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:11.060
no one would be able to resolve my DID or at least get the latest state or whatever whatever documents I was trying to access to resolve my DID.
574
00:49:11.455 --> 00:49:13.875
Those won't exist. So they won't have,
575
00:49:15.455 --> 00:49:17.715
the latest version of my DID, my identity.
576
00:49:20.839 --> 00:49:22.700
But at any point in time, I can come back
577
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.220
with the files, and I go, oh, I didn't know if I shut my laptop,
578
00:49:27.095 --> 00:49:34.315
I wouldn't be able to access my like, other people wouldn't be able to just resolve my identity. So they can, you know, they can pay to have it pinned elsewhere.
579
00:49:35.059 --> 00:49:39.960
They can have they can ask their friends. They can go to the Raspberry Pi and host their IPFS files there.
580
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:41.799
You don't even need to be running
581
00:49:42.255 --> 00:49:46.595
a full Ion node. You just need to have access you just need to know what IPFS files
582
00:49:46.975 --> 00:49:56.220
that are so you can have your identity. I can host yours. You can host mine. Exactly. We could be ID buddies. Right. So as it currently stands, Ion nodes will just
583
00:49:56.600 --> 00:50:00.140
584
00:50:00.495 --> 00:50:03.535
You're not actually relying on the robustness of the system because you could have
585
00:50:04.095 --> 00:50:09.315
Right. And you could have, like, kind of uncle Jim networks Right. And friends and family, like,
586
00:50:09.700 --> 00:50:11.559
group holding each other's ID
587
00:50:12.420 --> 00:50:21.484
588
00:50:21.785 --> 00:50:22.925
all Ion nodes
589
00:50:23.545 --> 00:50:27.579
do actually save all IPFS files to their storage,
590
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:28.780
that make
591
00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:42.664
up Ion identities. Okay. So the problem I said were, like, I create an Ion data and I close my laptop and run away. Now no one can resolve it. That's not a problem right now because because each ion node's keeping a copy. Exactly. But presumably, if we hit, you know,
592
00:50:43.070 --> 00:50:46.450
593
00:50:46.910 --> 00:50:50.130
594
00:50:50.875 --> 00:50:53.855
and they've arrived at, like, some worst case scenarios,
595
00:50:54.395 --> 00:50:56.575
in the orders of magnitude of terabytes.
596
00:50:58.550 --> 00:51:09.964
But some of their models that's like, I think it's unlike I mean, that's not horrible. Right? It's not the worst thing in the world. If it if if you say, like, you know, a few a few terabytes can have, like, millions or 100 of millions of of IDs,
597
00:51:10.425 --> 00:51:11.805
that's not the end of the world.
598
00:51:12.184 --> 00:51:16.330
And then especially in 10 years, who knows how much, like, a terabyte is gonna cost?
599
00:51:17.610 --> 00:51:18.110
So
600
00:51:18.890 --> 00:51:27.745
there there's a 10,000 operation limit because it it at least stops someone I guess it's crazy Millions of data. Like the Bitcoin threat model, though, where, like, if you
601
00:51:28.685 --> 00:51:30.225
602
00:51:31.140 --> 00:51:31.799
than storage.
603
00:51:32.819 --> 00:51:39.319
Like, it does it become prohibitively expensive to run an ion node so there's only, like, 3 of them, and they're all run by
604
00:51:40.115 --> 00:51:41.335
evil mega corpse.
605
00:51:41.875 --> 00:51:45.095
I think the bandwidth issue would probably have,
606
00:51:46.035 --> 00:51:47.495
IPFS would have
607
00:51:48.130 --> 00:51:49.410
608
00:51:49.970 --> 00:51:53.350
I don't know what the stress test on IPFS are, and I don't know how
609
00:51:53.650 --> 00:51:59.875
good being able to retrieve documents on, like, a huge massive scale is actually gonna work. The ion nodes are key to the whole system. Right?
610
00:52:00.175 --> 00:52:07.010
Yeah. And the ion node is basically the ion node would Can anyone run an ion node? Anyone can run an ion node. You point it to your, Bitcoin
611
00:52:07.470 --> 00:52:10.369
612
00:52:10.750 --> 00:52:11.250
credentials?
613
00:52:12.565 --> 00:52:23.470
614
00:52:23.770 --> 00:52:27.230
have someone else publish your Ion updates on behalf of you.
615
00:52:27.930 --> 00:52:40.930
You still sign it with your keys, but then you give the document to someone else and you say, hey. You're about to like, if I'm about to update my Ion identity, and you come to me and say you didn't wanna pay any on chain fees, but you know I'm already gonna pay some on chain fees,
616
00:52:41.230 --> 00:52:44.370
I can just include your update with my blockchain
617
00:52:44.910 --> 00:52:46.290
618
00:52:47.745 --> 00:52:50.565
a a man from the tribe of Benz,
619
00:52:51.825 --> 00:53:01.109
Ben DeCarmen, saying, I think the gate to running an ion node is doing all the op return transactions. Is there a specific signature that has to be done for the upturn transactions?
620
00:53:01.410 --> 00:53:03.350
621
00:53:03.730 --> 00:53:17.510
all the upturn transactions. And then I believe on Mainnet, it starts with, like, 1 But what about submitting the opportune transactions? Is that permitted? Is that permissioned? Or No. Can anyone do that? Can do that. So anyone will post a specific opportune,
622
00:53:19.250 --> 00:53:45.395
and all the ion nodes will look at it and judge whether or not that's like an ion one. And if it was an ion operation, then they go fetch the IPFS file, and then they say, okay. This is a valid ion update or not. And if it is, well, let's say it was just something random, then they throw it away. But let's say it wasn't signed correctly, then they they throw that update away. But if everything was Gucci, then they would just take that update and apply it to the did that they already have in their system. So if you want to trustlessly
623
00:53:46.255 --> 00:53:48.275
resolve other people's dids,
624
00:53:48.815 --> 00:53:51.875
you would want to run an ion node that does,
625
00:53:52.470 --> 00:53:54.329
store all the IPFS updates,
626
00:53:55.030 --> 00:53:56.170
from all the other
627
00:53:56.549 --> 00:54:01.289
628
00:54:01.955 --> 00:54:07.655
Carmen was saying he meant the fees. Like, it would just it could be prohibitively expensive for people to
629
00:54:08.515 --> 00:54:12.680
run an eye on node that's submitting op returns if fees go up.
630
00:54:13.540 --> 00:54:17.380
631
00:54:17.780 --> 00:54:32.860
Yeah. Single op return. So that, like, you know, that helps a lot. And you can like like I said, you can have your buddy do it for you. And I was, like, thinking more of I was thinking more of a check, like, if I was running my own Ion node, like, I wouldn't, like, try and
632
00:54:35.375 --> 00:54:40.355
633
00:54:40.655 --> 00:54:45.570
if the main ones weren't doing it or whatever. It'd be more of, like, a check on power rather than
634
00:54:45.970 --> 00:54:54.395
635
00:54:55.174 --> 00:55:00.714
But then the cool thing is there's there's also, like, peer to peer based it that, like, don't broadcast to a chain at all.
636
00:55:02.250 --> 00:55:05.390
There's still there's still keys involved, and you basically
637
00:55:05.770 --> 00:55:06.430
you take
638
00:55:06.730 --> 00:55:14.125
the document and you have your own peer to peer based ID that's, like, derived from that document, and then I give it to you through, like, a text file.
639
00:55:14.505 --> 00:55:16.925
Or it's like how PGP is kinda handled anyways,
640
00:55:17.350 --> 00:55:22.490
where you take your you take your blob of p PGP file and you, like, host it somewhere.
641
00:55:22.790 --> 00:55:24.405
You can do the same exact thing
642
00:55:24.805 --> 00:55:29.625
for, peer to peer based DIDs without a blockchain involved at all. So but the cool thing
643
00:55:30.005 --> 00:55:31.385
is that you're still interoperable
644
00:55:32.490 --> 00:55:41.710
with ever everyone else's DIDs no matter which one they choose. If if someone's using an Ion DID and they wanna talk to a person that's using just like a peer to peer DID and they gave them their DID,
645
00:55:42.155 --> 00:55:43.055
You could do that.
646
00:55:43.435 --> 00:55:46.015
And and and you can use the same applications.
647
00:55:46.555 --> 00:55:48.255
You talk to them exactly the same.
648
00:55:48.635 --> 00:55:51.215
It's just the resolving of I have this ID,
649
00:55:51.600 --> 00:55:52.820
and I need a document.
650
00:55:53.360 --> 00:55:53.860
How
651
00:55:54.240 --> 00:56:00.180
what's the process for this ID type to get that document? And that's all that matters. That's all DIDs are, really.
652
00:56:01.815 --> 00:56:05.035
653
00:56:05.494 --> 00:56:12.350
50 minutes on DIDs. Died on that hill, I guess. You're dying on the hill. You're the you're the main Didd guy now. It's you and
654
00:56:12.650 --> 00:56:14.590
it's you and, CSU Wildcat.
655
00:56:19.545 --> 00:56:20.685
Shout out to Dan.
656
00:56:21.065 --> 00:56:22.825
He's CSU Wildcat. Yep.
657
00:56:23.625 --> 00:56:24.025
The
658
00:56:25.080 --> 00:56:28.060
so are you familiar with Block's Web 5 proposal?
659
00:56:28.680 --> 00:56:33.020
A little bit. So, like, where did did for the freaks, where did dids
660
00:56:33.345 --> 00:56:36.885
fall into that vision? What is that overarching vision?
661
00:56:37.505 --> 00:56:42.085
662
00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:43.529
but it's a
663
00:56:44.549 --> 00:56:45.690
basically a stack
664
00:56:46.470 --> 00:56:47.609
of did adjacent
665
00:56:48.069 --> 00:56:48.569
technology.
666
00:56:49.029 --> 00:56:50.490
So dids are,
667
00:56:50.835 --> 00:56:53.095
I would say, one of the biggest aspects
668
00:56:53.714 --> 00:56:55.414
for their web 5 vision.
669
00:56:56.035 --> 00:57:01.400
The IDs themselves, the identity layer itself. Right. But then I would say that web 5
670
00:57:01.780 --> 00:57:05.720
now is like building this application or developer tooling suite
671
00:57:06.420 --> 00:57:07.800
of tools around
672
00:57:08.415 --> 00:57:09.875
DID. So I believe there's
673
00:57:10.255 --> 00:57:12.915
something they're calling a decentralized web node,
674
00:57:13.295 --> 00:57:18.690
which is basically your they want that to be, like, almost your application stack that you have somewhere.
675
00:57:20.030 --> 00:57:24.770
They want verifiable credential tooling amongst their web 5 stack where they have,
676
00:57:25.214 --> 00:57:35.040
you know, tools and and processes in place and maybe some applications where you can actually, like, share. Yeah. I think Matt's a good guy, and you can have you know, build reputation systems from that or whatever.
677
00:57:35.920 --> 00:57:37.460
And they have, like yeah. I believe
678
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.240
all the stuff around decentralized web node and,
679
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:43.300
some of their tooling and verified potential stuff,
680
00:57:43.945 --> 00:57:47.165
681
00:57:47.465 --> 00:57:51.005
Right. Which is their, like, decentralized exchange protocol.
682
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:56.500
683
00:57:57.040 --> 00:57:58.900
684
00:57:59.200 --> 00:58:06.265
the build out of web 5 is built on the bedrock of Dids. Yep. Which is beautiful to see because, it's been in the works,
685
00:58:07.365 --> 00:58:09.305
686
00:58:09.765 --> 00:58:10.240
and,
687
00:58:11.200 --> 00:58:17.540
I hope we're finally kinda seeing the vision of that play out. So I actually get some cool applications that
688
00:58:18.015 --> 00:58:19.615
hopefully release soon this year,
689
00:58:20.095 --> 00:58:23.715
using them, and we can kind of play it with them ourselves and see
690
00:58:24.575 --> 00:58:31.790
see if, it's actually real or not. But, like, as it currently stands, I don't think you can do any of that web 5 stuff right now, but there are,
691
00:58:32.570 --> 00:58:34.190
I think they are working on that.
692
00:58:34.755 --> 00:58:39.175
693
00:58:39.555 --> 00:58:44.820
Yep. Because it's 2 it's web 2 plus web 3. It's 2 times better than web 3.
694
00:58:45.440 --> 00:58:46.580
Yep. Oh, no. It's
695
00:58:47.040 --> 00:58:51.220
696
00:58:52.745 --> 00:58:55.485
697
00:58:56.585 --> 00:58:58.045
Did did better than Marty.
698
00:58:58.585 --> 00:59:01.165
2 2 times 3 is 6.
699
00:59:03.130 --> 00:59:09.150
So, I mean, I assume we're gonna talk more about this topic over the next 2 weeks as more people come into town.
700
00:59:10.165 --> 00:59:13.145
So we'll keep coming back to this topic among other topics.
701
00:59:13.925 --> 00:59:15.305
Let's pivot into
702
00:59:15.685 --> 00:59:18.265
your recent lightning privacy work.
703
00:59:18.950 --> 00:59:19.450
Yeah.
704
00:59:20.710 --> 00:59:21.690
How's that going?
705
00:59:21.990 --> 00:59:23.529
706
00:59:24.470 --> 00:59:25.609
A lot of different things.
707
00:59:26.285 --> 00:59:33.805
So I can dive into some of that. I think, I think the one that you're familiar with is some of the probing that I've been doing. Yeah. What's the deal with that? You added,
708
00:59:34.205 --> 00:59:41.230
30 gigs to my fucking storage requirements, my node. Yeah. I know. I apologize for that. I did not even mean to.
709
00:59:42.065 --> 00:59:48.245
I think I had, like, asked you if I could probe you, and you're like, yeah. Sure. No. I said you don't need my permission. Anyone can probe.
710
00:59:48.545 --> 00:59:55.420
Yeah. It's an open system. So I started that. What is probing? Yeah. So probing. On the Lightning Network,
711
00:59:56.140 --> 01:00:00.435
there's this problem where you basically anybody that has a channel
712
01:00:00.975 --> 01:00:05.875
can basically probe anyone else. And probing itself is the act of sending a fake payment,
713
01:00:06.950 --> 01:00:11.369
either to a node or through a node to kind of gauge information about
714
01:00:13.109 --> 01:00:20.625
information that they can drive from whether or not that payment that fake payment made it past that node or if it got kicked back
715
01:00:21.005 --> 01:00:26.540
because of things like maybe there's not enough liquidity. So probing is historically used for balance probing.
716
01:00:27.960 --> 01:00:32.974
See how much money you have on lightning. Yeah. And, typically, it's not a malicious thing.
717
01:00:33.835 --> 01:00:49.145
Services will do especially custodians, they have to they almost have to do this because the problem with lightning is you you don't know the fee that you're gonna actually pay until you get, like, that final confirmation screen of, like, okay, this fee is gonna be a 100 sats.
718
01:00:49.845 --> 01:00:58.570
The only reason you know it's gonna be a 100 sats is because the wallet did a pro behind the scenes. Typically, it's like it it shouldn't really show you a fee.
719
01:00:59.110 --> 01:01:17.759
720
01:01:18.140 --> 01:01:22.625
721
01:01:23.025 --> 01:01:28.165
Some of the routing algorithms have gotten smarter too where they understand that the cheapest path
722
01:01:29.920 --> 01:01:45.115
may not work very often, so they'll go a little bit above. It's like they don't want the bottom lowest 1% cheapness. They would rather, like, go, like, 5%. Because cheaper fees would normally be mean, like, a worse note operator or something like that. Right. Or yeah.
723
01:01:45.494 --> 01:01:51.730
724
01:01:52.750 --> 01:01:56.775
the cheaper fee could be less private because you go through less hops. Exactly.
725
01:01:57.075 --> 01:02:00.055
726
01:02:00.355 --> 01:02:03.255
that could end up being, the least the least private.
727
01:02:03.990 --> 01:02:17.234
Honestly, yeah, if you want more privacy when you're, like, making payments, going through the most amount of hops as possible, not just the most amount of hops, but the hops that aren't the lowest path. Because you can even do like, if I know
728
01:02:18.174 --> 01:02:22.850
where your node is and where it sits, and I know, like, another node and where it sits,
729
01:02:23.150 --> 01:02:25.010
I know I can compute
730
01:02:25.950 --> 01:02:28.130
the lowest path between you and
731
01:02:28.635 --> 01:02:33.615
and and and Rod or you and someone else. I already know what that is. So if you actually take that path,
732
01:02:34.555 --> 01:02:39.090
and their observers in the middle, they can kind of hypothesize of whether or not, okay,
733
01:02:40.190 --> 01:02:42.210
the the payment came from this channel
734
01:02:42.510 --> 01:02:46.369
and I routed it out that channel. Like, how many lowest path algorithms
735
01:02:47.135 --> 01:02:48.035
fit that profile?
736
01:02:48.335 --> 01:03:00.090
So, yeah, there's there's a there's an advantage to kind of sending it down not the lowest path or not the lowest amount of hops. But probing itself is basically they're doing that to find out what payment actually succeeds.
737
01:03:01.030 --> 01:03:06.725
It's funny because it'll succeed in terms of probing means it made it to the destination and then it failed.
738
01:03:07.105 --> 01:03:09.365
But you can see if it made it to that destination.
739
01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:13.480
So you try a bunch of fake payments. It makes it to the destination.
740
01:03:14.260 --> 01:03:24.565
You know what it you'll you'll calculate the fee on that, and you say, okay. That's gonna be a 100 sets. And then you go back to the user and say, it's gonna be a 100 sets to make this payment. Do you want to do this? Yes or no?
741
01:03:25.025 --> 01:03:27.444
And at least they have an exact amount for the fee.
742
01:03:28.340 --> 01:03:31.720
And custodians have to have that exact amount. They can't just be
743
01:03:32.020 --> 01:03:35.640
charging everyone at scale, like, willy nilly. They need to actually have
744
01:03:36.325 --> 01:03:37.785
an exact fee to
745
01:03:38.165 --> 01:03:56.635
see. They want the cheapest fees for the user for 1, but they also want to make sure that they can account for their own fees and they can get paid too. So these services are just probing left and right all the time. Yeah. Typically, just in time probing, which is just like right when the payment's about to be made. They send out a probe first. Right. But they can also just be probing constantly. So
746
01:03:57.655 --> 01:03:59.435
I took that probing concept,
747
01:03:59.815 --> 01:04:04.470
and I wrote about it a year ago, and we talked about it on Sedalia dispatch Alright. So 21.
748
01:04:06.610 --> 01:04:10.310
You can probe for the existence of unannounced channels too.
749
01:04:10.805 --> 01:04:20.560
750
01:04:20.940 --> 01:04:24.080
751
01:04:24.675 --> 01:04:29.015
announcing them to the rest. You're not gossiping about them to the rest of the Lightning Network,
752
01:04:29.955 --> 01:04:30.775
but there's
753
01:04:31.155 --> 01:04:33.440
a variety of ways you can figure out,
754
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:47.565
that a unannounced channel exists as in, like, it could be in your invoice because you need to get paid down your unannounced channel. If you need to use an unannounced channel to receive a payment, you have to give something called a root hint, which puts it in the invoice. Exactly. And you give that invoice
755
01:04:48.025 --> 01:05:02.325
to a user, and that user may pay with strike. And then all of a sudden, now Stripe knows about all of your nodes unannounced channels. Stripe knows a lot of shit. Stripe knows a lot. General. Yeah. It's funny. If you ever And every invoice has your note ID. We've gone over the Exactly. And,
756
01:05:02.645 --> 01:05:10.940
what I like doing is, like, writing in the memo, like, this is for drugs. Right. Just try and get their strike account frozen. Exactly. So if they pay in strike, I'm like, oh,
757
01:05:11.480 --> 01:05:20.925
It's funny because they'll scan it, and then it pops up on the strike app. Oh, you're paying this for drugs. It says it on the memo. At that point, they already know. It's too late at that point. Too late.
758
01:05:21.465 --> 01:05:33.500
759
01:05:34.295 --> 01:05:35.995
And I put the guy's nim
760
01:05:37.175 --> 01:05:38.075
dash poker,
761
01:05:38.855 --> 01:05:53.795
and then he paid with strikes. So then strike knew his nim and that he was playing poker and could correlate my note ID with the poker game. Exactly. So what's a memo hash? It's a hash of the memo instead. Right. So you put that in there, but there's still a problem of, like, okay, if you
762
01:05:54.255 --> 01:05:56.755
763
01:05:57.375 --> 01:06:09.985
would be, like, for everyone. So if everyone put 4 drugs, then, like, all you would do is hash the word 4 drugs and Right. Everyone You'd have to put some kind of salt there, like Some salt. 4 drugs 69 or something. I I like putting
764
01:06:10.945 --> 01:06:15.925
765
01:06:17.025 --> 01:06:38.540
for the sender? Obviously, it's helpful for the recipient. Right. It's The sender can't reverse engineer the hash, so they can't see what the memo payment is. So you have to send the hash out of band, and that's the pro I think that's why it's basically unusable to use the memo hash because So you put the memo hash in band, and then you put the actual context of the memo out of band, and then the sender can verify
766
01:06:38.840 --> 01:06:39.980
based on that
767
01:06:40.280 --> 01:07:06.555
Yep. That it was, in fact, the real memo. Yeah. And if you wanna see this over or over or just not having a memo. Exactly. Just don't have a memo. But if you wanna see this in fact Each individual can put their own memo. Like, if I'm paying you in my wallet, I could just put I'm paying Tony. Exactly. And in your wallet, you could be, like, I'm receiving money from Matt, and we don't have to actually exchange that information. No. I would rather peep we get rid of rent memos in lightning, and whenever someone goes to pay, the sender just manually types a description, and it just saves it in their phone.
768
01:07:07.175 --> 01:07:10.555
Which is what we do with labels for on chain transactions already. Exactly.
769
01:07:11.200 --> 01:07:15.780
770
01:07:16.240 --> 01:07:16.880
he has,
771
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:24.335
his options for me. Coming here next week? Yeah. Awesome. Alright. So I gotta just talk someone on stream, but I think yeah. He'll be on dispatch.
772
01:07:25.035 --> 01:07:25.535
Yeah.
773
01:07:26.075 --> 01:07:33.769
I think he was just on Stephane LeMaire last night. So Great podcast. Episode. Yeah. I don't know what number it is. Sorry, Stephane. Stephane knows. He knows.
774
01:07:34.710 --> 01:07:42.335
775
01:07:42.875 --> 01:07:43.375
776
01:07:43.915 --> 01:07:45.535
Madman over there. But
777
01:07:46.190 --> 01:07:50.369
Opera TurnBot, made by Ben Carmen, it uses the concept of memo hashes.
778
01:07:51.230 --> 01:07:54.289
So if you wanna see this done in practice, like, you know, pay,
779
01:07:55.325 --> 01:07:56.705
pay a memo from
780
01:07:57.005 --> 01:07:58.285
opportune bots and,
781
01:07:58.765 --> 01:07:59.745
see how that works.
782
01:08:00.045 --> 01:08:02.705
I mean, it's a bad u x in general memo, hashes.
783
01:08:03.150 --> 01:08:09.890
784
01:08:10.405 --> 01:08:12.745
how much you're holding on the Lightning Network,
785
01:08:13.045 --> 01:08:13.545
or
786
01:08:14.485 --> 01:08:16.105
unannounced channels existing.
787
01:08:16.405 --> 01:08:19.909
Yeah. So that one was a new one. So you sent a shit ton of unannounced
788
01:08:20.630 --> 01:08:22.250
shit ton of fake payments
789
01:08:22.710 --> 01:08:27.210
to my node, to the dispatch node, the same node you guys used to stream stats to.
790
01:08:28.295 --> 01:08:28.795
And
791
01:08:29.255 --> 01:08:30.315
what was the result?
792
01:08:30.775 --> 01:08:53.420
793
01:08:54.219 --> 01:08:57.360
You just hold you do a lot basically a lot of HODL
794
01:08:57.739 --> 01:09:02.075
invoices Okay. And you just hold, and you exhaust all 483
795
01:09:03.975 --> 01:09:11.489
HTLCs at each of your Per channel? Per channel. And then how how long does that last, that gym? I think you can go for a few days,
796
01:09:13.150 --> 01:09:15.250
and then you would have to do it again,
797
01:09:15.949 --> 01:09:28.449
which is not that hard. You can just keep You're gonna have it automated. Over and over and over again. So So would and so anyone can just take down any lightning node. Is that what you're saying? Yeah. And Yos highlighted this about a year or 2 ago, Yos Jager.
798
01:09:28.910 --> 01:09:33.250
And I think he did the trial. He did it with, like, I think, bit refill and,
799
01:09:34.455 --> 01:09:34.955
Amboss
800
01:09:35.495 --> 01:09:36.715
or or just for himself.
801
01:09:37.575 --> 01:09:46.360
And they did that proof of concept on main nets, and he actually went through and jammed the channels between you can you can send a payment that just keeps going around in the circle,
802
01:09:47.140 --> 01:09:55.885
going through the same channels. So you don't have to send multiple. You don't even have to send multiple. Keeps taking spots. So, like, one payment, you can you can jam, like,
803
01:09:56.344 --> 01:10:00.844
you can jam up to 20 h t l c slots. But this is specifically an issue with Huddl invoices?
804
01:10:01.510 --> 01:10:16.985
This is just an I guess it's not I that's just the way I described it. It's not Huddl invoices themselves. It's just like I guess it is. Yeah. I mean, you it doesn't have to be an Huddl invoice per se. But Can you my point is can you disable that on your node? No. So you're you're routing,
805
01:10:17.730 --> 01:10:21.910
806
01:10:22.690 --> 01:10:24.070
Bitfinex or some shit?
807
01:10:24.450 --> 01:10:28.365
808
01:10:28.905 --> 01:10:34.765
809
01:10:36.940 --> 01:10:41.920
it's been operating in this honeymoon phase, basically, where you don't have really active attackers out there.
810
01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:47.125
I I would say so. And it probably won't get more robust until there's really active attacks. Right?
811
01:10:47.505 --> 01:10:48.324
812
01:10:48.625 --> 01:10:59.460
part of my hope for some of this proven too so, okay, besides the fact that you went up your d b went up 30 gigabytes Right. I was able to find, I think, 15 or 16 different unannounced channels on your node.
813
01:10:59.965 --> 01:11:05.364
I don't know if you ever went back to confirm if that's how much you had or not. I was kinda pissed off about the extra 30 gigs. I'm just like
814
01:11:06.245 --> 01:11:08.965
Probably couldn't log in to your node because it was locked out.
815
01:11:09.590 --> 01:11:16.889
But I intentionally didn't oh, yeah. That's why I said it. I intentionally didn't jam your channel so you can still operate. I, at most, sent, like, 450
816
01:11:17.269 --> 01:11:18.535
HCLCs at once,
817
01:11:19.095 --> 01:11:20.075
instead of 483.
818
01:11:20.615 --> 01:11:22.795
819
01:11:23.495 --> 01:11:27.355
you're only, like, 90% jammed my fucking channels. Right.
820
01:11:28.780 --> 01:11:32.800
I I apologize. Guys should see the smile on my face. I I fucking love it.
821
01:11:34.219 --> 01:11:40.225
822
01:11:41.645 --> 01:11:46.625
823
01:11:48.320 --> 01:11:57.015
I like to push limits, like we said earlier on the show. So I just kind of aped into lightning. Yeah. And I just, you know, I I've learned a lot of expensive lessons since.
824
01:11:57.955 --> 01:12:09.680
825
01:12:10.219 --> 01:12:15.585
that is backing that channel, you thought you were making it private by making it a private channel,
826
01:12:16.764 --> 01:12:19.105
and you you didn't announce it to the whole network.
827
01:12:19.500 --> 01:12:20.320
But then,
828
01:12:20.780 --> 01:12:28.665
it gets probed out or it gets leaked in an invoice, and all of a sudden, they can see your UTXO that you You can connect the UTXO to it. Right.
829
01:12:29.225 --> 01:12:29.965
The amount.
830
01:12:30.505 --> 01:12:40.450
831
01:12:41.150 --> 01:12:43.890
832
01:12:44.350 --> 01:13:01.580
833
01:13:02.200 --> 01:13:12.125
and then you do the balance probing version of that attack to figure out how much is on each node. Because because the way I like to think of lightning for the freaks is it's like an abacus,
834
01:13:12.905 --> 01:13:27.455
which most people probably don't even know what an abacus is. It's those it's like the things they use as calculators before calculators existed where you have, like, little beads on a string. So you have some Bitcoin on one side of the channel and some Bitcoin on the other. One's controlled by one node. One's controlled by the other node.
835
01:13:27.755 --> 01:13:29.855
And natively, by the gossip protocol,
836
01:13:30.715 --> 01:13:31.465
you can't
837
01:13:33.100 --> 01:13:44.215
838
01:13:44.675 --> 01:13:49.975
how much is on either side. And then I just go ahead and jam it just to, like, put the cherry on top.
839
01:13:51.139 --> 01:13:55.880
840
01:13:56.340 --> 01:13:58.360
and then you shut down my node. Yeah.
841
01:13:59.255 --> 01:14:00.875
842
01:14:02.535 --> 01:14:05.515
I just have to open up a bunch of channels, and I'm ready to go.
843
01:14:06.750 --> 01:14:14.030
844
01:14:14.590 --> 01:14:18.035
845
01:14:19.695 --> 01:14:24.195
LDK has added it. I believe there's a PR for LND. I'm not sure about Corelightning
846
01:14:24.575 --> 01:14:27.650
or Eclair, but they're all gonna going to add it.
847
01:14:28.770 --> 01:14:35.225
It's they're calling it like this the 0 comp channel feature. So like that doesn't sound like a great feature to have
848
01:14:36.185 --> 01:14:43.460
for most users. Like, no one's gonna wanna open 0 comp channels, between just, like, normal people, but it's mostly for LSPs.
849
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:52.855
But with that, they had Lightning service providers. Yeah. Lightning service providers. With that, they had to add the feature that you could make up a fake channel
850
01:14:53.395 --> 01:14:55.255
ID for your unannounced channels.
851
01:14:56.034 --> 01:15:10.905
Okay. So because it like, the whole reason this is possible is because the channel ID is derived from the UTXO information. Right. So once you have the channel ID, you can figure out which UTXO opened it. So now there's for unannounced channels, there's not well, you know, once your software supports
852
01:15:11.205 --> 01:15:11.705
it,
853
01:15:13.205 --> 01:15:16.505
you're not gonna have to you don't docks your UTXO
854
01:15:16.885 --> 01:15:17.625
based on,
855
01:15:18.660 --> 01:15:27.160
the channel ID. So you can now again put it in a bunch of invoices, and they won't know what UTXOs are associated with. Still do the balance probing.
856
01:15:28.364 --> 01:15:31.744
Or no? No. Because because you can't probe
857
01:15:32.764 --> 01:15:40.010
the on and out channel at all, because for for 1, you also well, okay. I'll take it back a little bit. If you knew the channel ID,
858
01:15:40.390 --> 01:15:50.035
it would be possible to still probe it, but you would not know what UTXO was derived from it still. You could maybe do a Wait. So you couldn't just do the probing attack that you're already doing?
859
01:15:50.450 --> 01:15:51.190
No. Because,
860
01:15:52.450 --> 01:15:56.230
the way it works look. It's an channel ID is a number, basically.
861
01:15:57.010 --> 01:16:01.715
And it would be too it's too hard to just guess the number because it could be any random number.
862
01:16:03.615 --> 01:16:14.490
I am actually looking at every I scan the blockchain for every unspent p 2 WSA transaction Right. Which is the kind of transaction that an open lightning channel,
863
01:16:14.870 --> 01:16:15.370
is.
864
01:16:16.025 --> 01:16:17.005
There's about
865
01:16:17.625 --> 01:16:18.125
860,000
866
01:16:19.705 --> 01:16:20.205
unspent,
867
01:16:20.905 --> 01:16:21.405
PHWSH
868
01:16:21.945 --> 01:16:28.860
transactions. Okay. And you need it to be unspent because, like, that means it's still in a channel. Right. It's a channel open, but no closed. Exactly.
869
01:16:29.560 --> 01:16:36.455
So that's the set I get to work on. Instead of, like, a number between 1 and, you know, I don't know, 2 to the power of 64,
870
01:16:36.915 --> 01:16:42.250
I'm literally just dealing with, like, a binary amount, like, just a a numerical amount of probes.
871
01:16:42.790 --> 01:16:47.955
So if I wanted to scale this up, like, I think I spent, like, a day or 2 doing a complete
872
01:16:48.655 --> 01:16:49.155
800,000
873
01:16:49.615 --> 01:16:52.435
probes against you because we're we're also going through TOR.
874
01:16:52.735 --> 01:16:54.220
It's also taking a while. Right.
875
01:16:54.620 --> 01:17:02.165
Maybe The shittiness of tours. Maybe maybe my pro starting up is what made tour go shitty. I don't know. Yeah. You'd you'd you'd DDoS the tour network.
876
01:17:02.885 --> 01:17:05.705
That'd be great if that's, like, what I accidentally did.
877
01:17:06.805 --> 01:17:15.840
But no. So we were even going through Tor, and I think it was, like, I was only able to do, like, 5 probes a second, which is still pretty good on tour in the grand scheme of things.
878
01:17:16.619 --> 01:17:17.679
What was that, like,
879
01:17:18.195 --> 01:17:18.855
880
01:17:19.395 --> 01:17:20.375
or whatever that
881
01:17:20.755 --> 01:17:21.875
remember when he, like,
882
01:17:23.395 --> 01:17:28.420
he fucked up the multisig because he, like, called the function or something. He was just, like, fucking around, and then he posted
883
01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:29.940
he posted on
884
01:17:30.560 --> 01:17:38.295
the on the forum or something. He's like, I think I killed it or something. So that was Oh, yeah. It, like, shut down the entire smart contract. Yeah. Yeah. They lost a bunch of ETH on that.
885
01:17:39.235 --> 01:17:43.780
886
01:17:44.340 --> 01:17:51.079
887
01:17:52.415 --> 01:17:53.635
you're able to basically,
888
01:17:55.054 --> 01:18:01.235
with a fake payment, go down those unannounced channels. But I thought you can't like, unannounced channels aren't used for routing.
889
01:18:01.870 --> 01:18:13.755
890
01:18:14.135 --> 01:18:17.195
the other no doesn't know if it's just paying you.
891
01:18:18.010 --> 01:18:29.445
So it has to give you Right. That payment, and you like, you would want it to get to your node. Right. And then your node decides whether or not it was a payment. If it wasn't a real payment, then it throws it back. So then let's go back forward.
892
01:18:29.745 --> 01:18:30.245
893
01:18:32.545 --> 01:18:33.845
so with this change
894
01:18:34.830 --> 01:18:35.330
that's
895
01:18:35.870 --> 01:18:36.930
soon to be implemented,
896
01:18:38.990 --> 01:18:45.635
you couldn't just do that same probe and then do some kind of, like, timing analysis on when that channel was created
897
01:18:46.895 --> 01:18:48.035
with the UTXO
898
01:18:48.815 --> 01:18:49.315
set?
899
01:18:50.015 --> 01:18:50.915
900
01:18:51.490 --> 01:18:52.470
since it's not
901
01:18:53.250 --> 01:18:59.750
since the channel ID is no longer derived and and and if we're moving to just random channel ID aliases,
902
01:19:00.305 --> 01:19:03.605
it's too big of a number set to be able to actually
903
01:19:03.985 --> 01:19:32.090
reasonably Right. Guess any a single So would you be Even if I did, even if I got I could maybe figure out that there was a channel between 2 nodes that's unannounced, but I won't know it's I won't know it's UTXO information or it's amount or any anything like that. And you but you could still balance ProBit. Right? Yes. You could still balance ProBit. So you wouldn't know what UTXO is based on, but you know the channel existed and how much Right. Was in there. So in theory, if you leaked out
904
01:19:32.630 --> 01:19:33.850
that channel ID,
905
01:19:35.635 --> 01:19:36.695
through an invoice,
906
01:19:37.155 --> 01:19:39.495
someone with an invoice, one of your invoices
907
01:19:40.275 --> 01:19:43.950
can probe that and also route down it if it wanted to.
908
01:19:44.830 --> 01:19:49.730
The main reason, honestly, to have unannounced channels in this day and age, not for privacy at all.
909
01:19:50.190 --> 01:19:53.010
It's it's mostly just for the fact that
910
01:19:53.445 --> 01:19:57.865
you're signaling to the network. You probably don't want to use this channel
911
01:19:58.245 --> 01:20:00.585
because it's from a mobile node that's gonna
912
01:20:00.940 --> 01:20:14.644
be on the it for routing. Don't use it for I'm telling you not to use it for routing. I'm asking you not to for your own benefit. You can, but, like, you're not gonna get anywhere. So what's the name of this change we're talking about? We're talking about 0 zero confirmation channels? So zero confirmation channels or
913
01:20:15.025 --> 01:20:15.525
SCID
914
01:20:15.905 --> 01:20:16.405
aliases.
915
01:20:16.720 --> 01:20:18.740
They're kind of the they lump together.
916
01:20:19.840 --> 01:20:22.820
And but the cool thing is, like, I Would you call them
917
01:20:23.440 --> 01:20:28.614
918
01:20:29.074 --> 01:20:30.355
919
01:20:31.315 --> 01:20:31.975
I mean,
920
01:20:32.390 --> 01:20:37.050
I don't know. That's a good question. Because at least you get to hide the UTX information now.
921
01:20:39.405 --> 01:20:41.905
And even if you dox the fact that you have a channel,
922
01:20:42.525 --> 01:20:45.505
you don't dox the UTXO. So I don't know. That's a good question.
923
01:20:45.885 --> 01:20:49.000
Maybe they are gonna be private channels now. You know?
924
01:20:49.960 --> 01:20:55.740
You're still telling it to your node partner, so, you know, they could, like, tell other people, I guess. But
925
01:20:56.165 --> 01:21:00.505
926
01:21:01.925 --> 01:21:21.990
Your node partner knows. Yeah. Your node partner knows. Even though the channel ID isn't derived from the UTXO. Correct. Yeah. Because they're both waiting on the fact Alright. They have to know. It's part of the Yeah. It's it's what Part of the trust model. Exactly. If they didn't know They're looking at the collateral as it's Right. Gonna have to be able to do the penalty transaction to take your UTXO if you fuck with them. Yeah.
927
01:21:23.330 --> 01:21:26.230
928
01:21:27.490 --> 01:21:28.870
2 other nodes, and
929
01:21:29.205 --> 01:21:31.625
one of them was, the async node.
930
01:21:32.005 --> 01:21:35.865
931
01:21:36.405 --> 01:21:41.000
932
01:21:42.520 --> 01:21:52.515
I was able to find 400 How many gigs did you add to theirs? I don't well, actually, so because they're not running l and d, I don't think I added very many. Oh, because they're running async. Right.
933
01:21:54.210 --> 01:21:59.590
So they were fine, and c lightning is fine, and l and d will be fine soon with some updates.
934
01:22:00.530 --> 01:22:09.990
935
01:22:11.750 --> 01:22:14.490
Okay. So sorry. You you probed the async node.
936
01:22:15.910 --> 01:22:17.850
937
01:22:18.455 --> 01:22:20.795
I only sent out 30,000 probes.
938
01:22:21.255 --> 01:22:22.155
And I found
939
01:22:23.175 --> 01:22:26.475
445 on announced channels that they had opened. How many? 445.
940
01:22:27.015 --> 01:22:27.515
Okay.
941
01:22:28.469 --> 01:22:30.409
Totaling over 10 Bitcoin worth.
942
01:22:30.949 --> 01:22:31.830
943
01:22:32.630 --> 01:22:38.275
944
01:22:38.655 --> 01:22:45.750
for me on some of my data. So I open sourced all of this data. The all the codes to do to do this is out there. So Where can people find that?
945
01:22:46.150 --> 01:22:50.890
Hidden lightning network dot com. Great domain. Yeah. Which just redirects to a GitHub page.
946
01:22:53.245 --> 01:23:00.385
Go there. All the code is there. There's, like, a data folder to or a results folder to go and find the actual data results for this.
947
01:23:00.690 --> 01:23:02.470
Someone did some visualization
948
01:23:03.570 --> 01:23:07.190
for me, and it actually is kinda cool. He was able to see when
949
01:23:08.425 --> 01:23:09.165
all of the
950
01:23:09.545 --> 01:23:13.485
channels were open and how much were opening. And it's like the start,
951
01:23:14.105 --> 01:23:16.205
you know, the the I think their new,
952
01:23:16.870 --> 01:23:25.994
LSP that they launched, there's a huge uptick in unannounced channels being open because they're an LSP and they're they're mobile app and it makes sense that,
953
01:23:26.454 --> 01:23:35.210
954
01:23:35.670 --> 01:23:36.170
955
01:23:36.870 --> 01:23:37.530
out of
956
01:23:37.830 --> 01:23:38.330
800.
957
01:23:38.710 --> 01:23:39.755
So I did, like, what?
958
01:23:40.315 --> 01:23:42.094
Out of 800,000. 800,000.
959
01:23:42.395 --> 01:23:43.054
Yeah. Sorry.
960
01:23:43.594 --> 01:23:49.534
I only did, like, like, a few percent. I'm not gonna try and do math right now. Yeah. I'm not. Like, a few percent. I think
961
01:23:49.980 --> 01:23:51.200
that's, like, 5%.
962
01:23:51.740 --> 01:23:52.240
Yeah.
963
01:23:53.180 --> 01:23:54.960
And I I those 30,000,
964
01:23:56.140 --> 01:23:59.155
965
01:23:59.875 --> 01:24:00.934
966
01:24:02.514 --> 01:24:10.080
Out of that 30,000, I the reason why I got so many just from that is because I just used UTXO so it looked like they could have been lighting channels.
967
01:24:10.460 --> 01:24:11.520
So, like, a very
968
01:24:12.139 --> 01:24:17.545
round number that's, like, a 100,000 or a 1000000 sats. Right. The round number ones are round numbers. Round number
969
01:24:18.165 --> 01:24:21.225
970
01:24:21.845 --> 01:24:29.699
971
01:24:30.000 --> 01:24:34.775
Right. You can now, but people don't. It's too hard, honestly, to do it.
972
01:24:37.155 --> 01:24:42.800
And yeah. So everyone uses just round numbers, and it's usually the only transactions in that,
973
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:44.000
output.
974
01:24:44.380 --> 01:24:48.639
Just 2. So it was able to I'm like, that's probably a high percent like, 445
975
01:24:48.940 --> 01:24:53.844
channels from that 30 k. It's pretty high. Right? It's pretty high percentage wise. The rest of the,
976
01:24:54.305 --> 01:25:02.790
977
01:25:03.809 --> 01:25:05.750
over 8,000 private channels.
978
01:25:06.929 --> 01:25:08.869
Yeah. Could be. But that
979
01:25:09.535 --> 01:25:14.915
it's it's even it's even it would be even more than that. It would be, like, 10,000 channels. Something like that.
980
01:25:15.295 --> 01:25:17.875
981
01:25:18.340 --> 01:25:20.600
50. I mean, it's an interest Why did you stop?
982
01:25:21.460 --> 01:25:28.114
So I stopped because my l and d note kept fucking up. No. So a little bit about how this project works. I'm I'm using LDK
983
01:25:28.815 --> 01:25:32.355
Okay. Which is really cool. I've been playing around with that for the last few months.
984
01:25:33.054 --> 01:25:39.940
985
01:25:40.500 --> 01:25:44.815
986
01:25:45.835 --> 01:25:52.480
You still have to do a lot. Like, there's no batteries included. So, like, you have to figure out how to create your LDK project.
987
01:25:53.420 --> 01:26:00.285
And quite honestly, I didn't trust myself to just connect to any node on the network with my LDK node that I hand, like, hand built.
988
01:26:00.925 --> 01:26:03.905
But shout out to Paul Miller. He helped a lot on,
989
01:26:04.605 --> 01:26:07.985
on my Future Paul on Twitter. Future Paul. Go follow him.
990
01:26:09.120 --> 01:26:16.420
991
01:26:16.824 --> 01:26:18.585
He's gonna be on dispatch. Love it.
992
01:26:20.185 --> 01:26:22.284
993
01:26:22.585 --> 01:26:23.085
So,
994
01:26:23.705 --> 01:26:26.790
I connected it to my LND node at home,
995
01:26:27.730 --> 01:26:32.550
but that started slowing down. That started getting fucked up. After so many payments, I had a hard time
996
01:26:33.010 --> 01:26:35.430
compacting the DB. I had to fork LND,
997
01:26:36.565 --> 01:26:38.105
and as advice against
998
01:26:38.485 --> 01:26:41.945
from from Alex Bosworth, he said, don't I wouldn't do that.
999
01:26:42.700 --> 01:26:47.680
And I'm like, I'm gonna take this PR, and I'm gonna patch it onto my LNDs. Don't do that.
1000
01:26:49.500 --> 01:26:55.034
I did it and it worked. I got my 30 gigabytes compacted down, like, a 128 megs.
1001
01:26:56.614 --> 01:27:27.225
And I'm worried about updating in the future. But it's still not merged, and they're still fixing some of the issues. But so long story short, your LND node failed while you were probing. Right. And it was in the middle of the Austin hackathon. I'm, like, trying to get this data out there to, like, be able to talk about it, and my note keeps fucking up at home. So I'm like, okay. That's it. I'm going. Whatever partial dataset. Partial dataset. It's out there. People can view it. It's actually a kind of a nice warning. I can warn people. Okay. If you actually like, I warned you a year ago with that article. But if you actually still think private channels are private,
1002
01:27:28.565 --> 01:27:31.365
then close your channels now if you don't wanna be probed. So,
1003
01:27:32.280 --> 01:27:37.260
hopefully, sometime this week, I started again. I'm gonna set up a c lightning node. Hopefully, it's more reliable.
1004
01:27:37.560 --> 01:27:40.620
1005
01:27:41.155 --> 01:27:54.990
there's pretty much wide agreement that, like, the worst case scenario for user privacy is when a user thinks they're private but they're not. And the thing that's gonna suck is it's better if they just assume lack of privacy and don't have privacy. Exactly. Then it's the opposite. Hide your UTXO.
1006
01:27:55.370 --> 01:27:56.590
1007
01:27:57.085 --> 01:28:06.145
do it in a lightning channel. Right. There's other ways to do it. I think I in the article I wrote, you can go back and read some of the suggestions I have if you want privacy on lightning.
1008
01:28:06.860 --> 01:28:07.360
But
1009
01:28:07.739 --> 01:28:10.940
with this short channel ID aliasing stuff that's gonna be fixed,
1010
01:28:11.500 --> 01:28:14.960
you're gonna everyone's gonna have to close their private channels to take advantage of that,
1011
01:28:15.905 --> 01:28:17.045
and open them again.
1012
01:28:17.425 --> 01:28:19.045
Well, that fucking sucks. Yeah.
1013
01:28:19.985 --> 01:28:29.320
Well, these fees are still cheap. Yeah. So people are like, oh, well, why are you probing? This is gonna be fixed. I'm like, it'll be fixed when when I don't find any results anymore, and no one has private channels anymore.
1014
01:28:31.074 --> 01:28:33.335
1015
01:28:33.875 --> 01:28:36.855
Keep all this in mind. Tony, we have a comment,
1016
01:28:37.635 --> 01:28:39.815
from citrinity, ride or die freak.
1017
01:28:41.179 --> 01:28:42.639
Fucking love these dudes. This
1018
01:28:43.340 --> 01:28:44.320
is a real one.
1019
01:28:44.699 --> 01:28:49.965
When you get a chance, would love to hear your thoughts on privacy implications of using CLboss
1020
01:28:50.905 --> 01:28:59.600
automated node manager to open and balance channels with, say, a large single post mix UTXO. Do you have any thoughts on this? I haven't used CL
1021
01:28:59.980 --> 01:29:00.480
1022
01:29:01.020 --> 01:29:01.520
itself.
1023
01:29:02.060 --> 01:29:04.640
1024
01:29:05.020 --> 01:29:07.204
1025
01:29:07.585 --> 01:29:10.965
1026
01:29:11.425 --> 01:29:12.244
1027
01:29:13.025 --> 01:29:14.885
I don't know too much about it, but I believe
1028
01:29:15.220 --> 01:29:20.760
it's not using, like, a centralized server or anything. It's only using your nodes metrics to be able to try to
1029
01:29:22.635 --> 01:29:27.775
rebalance your channel. So I don't I don't yeah. There's not really a privacy concern there too much.
1030
01:29:28.635 --> 01:29:35.410
And in fact, actually, I would say, like, rebalancing channels kind of helps your privacy a little bit because you're sending payments out
1031
01:29:35.790 --> 01:29:38.050
down one channel, and they're succeeding.
1032
01:29:38.510 --> 01:29:38.885
But
1033
01:29:39.925 --> 01:29:53.900
those channels don't know it's coming in a different way. It's coming back to you. It's coming back to you. So it's almost like if you were to do It's a pump fake in football. Right. Pump fake or or or, what's what is it? Is it ricochet in in samurai where, like, you just send a bunch of payments amongst yourself?
1034
01:29:54.760 --> 01:30:02.005
You just add hops to your own Ricochet is the one that adds hops. Right. Yeah. So that would be, like, the equivalent. Like, doing rebalancing actually probably
1035
01:30:02.305 --> 01:30:05.685
helps your payment and onset because And in general, using lightning
1036
01:30:07.410 --> 01:30:08.310
1037
01:30:09.090 --> 01:30:09.590
using,
1038
01:30:10.130 --> 01:30:10.870
a single
1039
01:30:11.810 --> 01:30:14.230
post coin join collaborative transaction, UTXO,
1040
01:30:15.685 --> 01:30:16.825
with 1 or 2
1041
01:30:17.525 --> 01:30:26.260
largest channels and then just getting rid of the node and starting fresh is, like, the best. Right. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we can talk about it a little bit, but,
1042
01:30:26.740 --> 01:30:27.640
1043
01:30:28.740 --> 01:30:29.720
we worked on
1044
01:30:30.100 --> 01:30:30.600
PLN,
1045
01:30:31.015 --> 01:30:37.515
which is like we're calling it, like, the private lightning wallet. Right. So we've started that, and its only feature right now really
1046
01:30:37.895 --> 01:30:38.395
is
1047
01:30:38.700 --> 01:30:42.080
whenever you open a channel, it's it spins up a new node.
1048
01:30:42.540 --> 01:30:50.655
So every time That's cool. The other channel spins up a new node, You can only send, if you try to if you try to receive, you get a a funny meme pops up,
1049
01:30:51.115 --> 01:30:52.730
because receiving is not private.
1050
01:30:53.210 --> 01:31:02.445
Sending is has pretty good privacy. So it's it's like, ideally, you have one node You're calling it private lightning wallet? Mhmm. PLN. Great name. Yeah.
1051
01:31:02.844 --> 01:31:04.145
It it gets the job done.
1052
01:31:04.925 --> 01:31:08.784
But that's its only purpose is to just spend Bitcoin. Can people use that today?
1053
01:31:09.405 --> 01:31:15.199
It's it we just started we just started at a hackathon, so we really only spent, like, 48 hours on it. So no.
1054
01:31:15.599 --> 01:31:17.539
But we do have a GitHub for it.
1055
01:31:18.755 --> 01:31:19.975
I think it's just bakeshop/pln.
1056
01:31:22.515 --> 01:31:25.415
1057
01:31:28.739 --> 01:31:31.400
So, I mean, we're at an hour and 30 minutes.
1058
01:31:33.699 --> 01:31:37.285
This is a fantastic grip. I always appreciate you joining us.
1059
01:31:37.765 --> 01:31:45.865
I'm sure I'm gonna have you on multiple times over the next week. If you would do so be here. That'd be fucking awesome.
1060
01:31:46.630 --> 01:31:49.369
Before we wrap up, hit us with some final thoughts.
1061
01:31:49.909 --> 01:31:50.809
1062
01:31:52.469 --> 01:31:55.770
I don't wanna die on the dead hill, but I think they're cool.
1063
01:31:56.725 --> 01:31:59.065
Lightning privacy is really hard. Join
1064
01:31:59.445 --> 01:31:59.945
matrix.lightninghackers.com.
1065
01:32:02.565 --> 01:32:05.065
Chat about some Lightning privacy stuff if you want.
1066
01:32:06.250 --> 01:32:06.730
And,
1067
01:32:07.210 --> 01:32:10.270
yeah, stay safe out there. Stay safe out there.
1068
01:32:10.650 --> 01:32:12.110
1069
01:32:12.565 --> 01:32:16.585
is a matrix group? Mhmm. So yes. And that's on the matrix dot org server?
1070
01:32:17.605 --> 01:32:20.850
1071
01:32:21.330 --> 01:32:21.830
lightninghackers.com.
1072
01:32:23.490 --> 01:32:25.510
Okay. To to join it. Okay.
1073
01:32:25.970 --> 01:32:29.670
But that right. I think you can find it if you search the general,
1074
01:32:30.055 --> 01:32:35.195
1075
01:32:36.295 --> 01:32:38.160
1076
01:32:38.780 --> 01:32:40.400
1077
01:32:41.100 --> 01:32:44.080
Shout out to all the freaks who joined us in the live chat.
1078
01:32:44.700 --> 01:32:46.400
Real quick, BTC Waterpants
1079
01:32:46.885 --> 01:32:54.105
said on Twitch, I like CL boss. I wouldn't have channels without it because I'm not fucking managing them. Great comment. Nice.
1080
01:32:55.330 --> 01:32:56.790
I appreciate all you freaks.
1081
01:32:57.650 --> 01:32:58.150
Remember,
1082
01:32:58.690 --> 01:33:00.070
the easiest way you can support
1083
01:33:00.770 --> 01:33:03.510
dispatch is through podcasting 2 point o apps.
1084
01:33:03.995 --> 01:33:08.735
Specifically, I fucking love the boostograms and being able to send messages so I can read them.
1085
01:33:09.275 --> 01:33:10.975
But if you have no stats to spare,
1086
01:33:11.340 --> 01:33:13.920
subscribing on your favorite platform, whether that's bitcointv.com,
1087
01:33:14.860 --> 01:33:19.040
Twitter, Twitch, or your favorite podcast app by simply searching CIL dispatch.
1088
01:33:19.695 --> 01:33:22.995
Like I said, I did put the appeal into YouTube. Don't hold your breath.
1089
01:33:24.255 --> 01:33:24.835
But, ideally,
1090
01:33:25.295 --> 01:33:25.795
it
1091
01:33:26.415 --> 01:33:32.170
will get overturned, so you can get notifications on YouTube. But right now, you can get notifications
1092
01:33:34.070 --> 01:33:34.809
on Twitch.
1093
01:33:35.892 --> 01:33:39.753
With all that said, I love you all. Stay on bone stack sets.
