June 7, 2022
CD65: live from the new studio at bitcoin park with @sethforprivacy and @bitvolt7
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BLOCK: 739752
PRICE: 3342 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Bitcoin Park, privacy, freedom, pain points, touching the stove, learning from mistakes, is bitcoin inevitable?, fedimints, listening is not reading
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@sethforprivacy: https://twitter.com/sethforprivacy
seth's podcast: https://optoutpod.com/
@bitvolt7: https://twitter.com/bitvolt7
nico's podcast: https://simplybitcoin.tv/
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00:55 - Human Rights Foundation Freedom Forum in Oslo
01:19 - Bitcoin Park initiative in Nashville
09:51 - Discussion about the Lummis bill
43:41 - The last bastion of freedom in America
44:31 - The importance of Bitcoin in oppressive environments
48:05 - The need for a circular economy in Bitcoin
01:22:47 - Custody trade-offs in Fedimint with Mini Mints
01:26:42 - Potential benefits of Fedimint for average Bitcoin users
01:30:49 - Trust and privacy in the Fedimint system
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 7:56:52 PM
Duration: 6115.448
Channels: 1
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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I know it's been a few weeks since you've last heard a dispatch.
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That is on me,
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but I haven't been on vacation.
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I have been working around the clock
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on the next chapter. Got a lot of big things planned.
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First and foremost, I was in Oslo
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for the Human Rights Foundation Freedom Forum.
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That was an extremely rewarding experience.
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You will hear more about that, in the future. I shot a small documentary series,
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that we hope to have edited and released, at least the first couple of episodes soon.
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So there'll be more details on that.
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In addition to that,
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we have launched something called Bitcoin Park, a very special initiative
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in Nashville.
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It's going to be a mix of a community center and social club. We have all dedicated to Bitcoin. We have an event space.
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Nash Bitcoiners,
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is gonna be held here tomorrow.
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Over 200 Bitcoiners will be there.
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You'll be able to buy burgers with sats.
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There is going to be workshops here. There's a whole co working space.
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We're right near the 2 colleges,
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in Nashville, Belmont, and Vanderbilt.
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So we will be ideally
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doing dev workshops
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with,
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the youth of our nation
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to hopefully bring them into Bitcoin development. We'll be doing self custody workshops,
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all different sorts of events here at Bitcoin Park. And in addition to that,
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we have a brand new Bitcoin TV studio here, which dispatch will be broadcast from going forward.
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I'm hoping to do
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more in person conversations on dispatch than through the Internet. It's always
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just more enjoyable,
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and I think the conversations come out better.
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Starting with today's conversation,
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we have oh, and, also, this is literally
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I've just been setting up the studio today
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all day.
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It's a very minimal viable product in here right now.
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So apologies to our guests who are here, but also apologies to the listeners. That is why this is the 1st dispatch without a bumper.
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You know, some mainstream media clip that we can all laugh at together in 5 years does not exist on this one, and we will not be ending it with a music video.
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On that note, though, I am gonna be doing another rip here for dispatch,
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tomorrow that will also go live. I'm thinking that's going to be
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around 1700
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UTC tomorrow,
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and, hopefully, I will have the setup fully set up for that,
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and you will get the dispatch you know and love.
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So to the rider dive freaks out there,
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I just wanna thank you again for supporting the show and keeping it ad free,
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sponsor free, dedicated purely to actionable discussion.
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I really do appreciate you. I couldn't do it without you.
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Once again, the easiest way to support the show is go to sidledispech.com.
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I have a BTC base server there. You can also use podcasting 2 point o apps, like Breeze and Fountain Podcast to stream sass to the show.
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And if you remember,
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at least the rider dies, remember I said 3 weeks ago
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that if you use the boostogram feature on podcasting 2.0 apps, which is where you put a message
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and choose how many sats you wanna send, that I will read the top ones.
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I know it has been 3 weeks, but
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gotta give credit where credit's due. We have Chad Farrow here.
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He
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contributed 50,000 sats to the cause and says, loves the idea of reading the top boost on each episode.
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I'm curious to see what the freaks have to say. FYI, a boost with the message is a boostogram, but I'm just being picky.
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Thank you, Chad.
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And we have Mary,
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Oscar said, amazing episode. Hoping all the Fountain users can help you realize your goal of staying ad free and a 100% audience funded. He contributed 30,000 sats.
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And then we have Bon who contributed 25,951
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sats, very specific amount of sats.
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And he said, I started an experiment in April, and this is now the 2nd month of doing it, and I like it. I load up fountain with a Netflix subscription amount of sats every month.
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Instead of streaming sats per minute, I now just boost an amount at the end of a show based on length. Shows with ads get 5 seconds per minute, and no ad shows get 20 seconds per minute. At the end of the month, if there's a balance in fountain, I then dump the remaining sats to shows with no ads.
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This boost of 25951
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is an example of that value for value.
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And then,
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vague said for 4,000 sats, stay humble. Vague.
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Thanks, vague. You're always you're always a supporter. But, anyway, if you use a podcasting 2.0 app, you can read everybody's boosts after they send them, which is pretty cool on each episode. So if you wanna support the show, that's a fun way of supporting it.
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If you contribute one of the highest boosts, I will read it
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tomorrow, I guess. So get those in. Maybe you can get a nice cheap one in, you know, if no one else gets it in.
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Okay. So with all that said,
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this is a special rip because it's the first one in the new studio, first with the new chapter.
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I have return guest, Seth, for privacy here. How's it going, Seth? Hey, Matt. Thanks for having me on, man. I'm, really excited that worked out to to jump in, check out the new studio, and chat with you. It was nice. It was just a surprise. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding.
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I figured out figured out he was in town.
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Was it was it last night or this morning? Figured out this morning you were in town. Yeah. I think this morning. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Love to see that happen. And then we have Nico
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bit volt 7 from Simply Bitcoin here. How's it going, Nico? What's up, man? I'm super happy to be here. I just wanna say Matt completely undersold the studio.
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I've never heard better acoustics in my life. There's literally no
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was it reverb? What? Echo, reverb, anything. Yep. There's no echo. It's it's perfect. I love it.
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But, I mean, the irony thank you, Nico. The irony of Nico saying that is I do have him on a
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I have him on a wireless mic. So if he's a little bit lower, worse sound quality than me and Seth,
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don't hold it against him. That is that is my fault. I take personal responsibility for that. And,
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if we didn't completely bankrupt ourselves on Bitcoin Park, we'd invest in some some new mics,
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for the 3rd and 4th guest because I wanna have I think I really like party episodes. I wanna have more party rips in here. Yeah.
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I feel like it's a really good room for party rips. Yeah. You could do a big group in here.
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So what do you guys think of Bitcoin Park? I, like, gave you both the tour.
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I, had no idea where I was pulling up. Uber dropped me off, and it's, yeah, it's pretty mind blowing. I mean, this place is perfectly set up for a lot of stuff that you've been doing and and obviously want to do,
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but it really looks like a a haven for
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Bitcoiners and and just really kinda freedom loving people. So excited to see where the cafe goes, where all the event space Yeah. We have a fucking cafe.
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Yeah.
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Yeah. I'm pretty excited. I'm I'm bummed, Seth, that you won't be here for NASH Bitcoiners. But,
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I know. I may have to see if maybe I can move my flight or something. We'll see. Because it would be pretty sweet to be able to tag along while I'm in town anyways. Yeah. You should consider it. It's a good time. It's gonna be Nico's first time. He's gonna fucking love it.
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It's a special group of people that you have that come here. I might move out here. This place is awesome.
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The the the the this is a complex. I mean, it is that's what it is. You gotta call it for what it is.
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I'm just excited to see how this plays out.
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I think when Bitcoin, we always say, you know, Bitcoin is going to take over and all that. I think this is part of the process, man. I think this is definitely a step up.
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Gonna move into that producer studio right back there. This lay down Yeah. Just give me a closet. I'll be happy. We got a bunch of couches here. Perfect.
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Well, anyway, we'd love to have you. So, I mean, I just like both of you guys, so I
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don't really have any someone asked me what the topic of today's conversation was, and I just don't have a topic.
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We just have a new studio, and it's a Bitcoin Tuesday, and the freaks haven't heard from dispatch in 3 weeks. So
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you guys are both in town. I just kinda made it happen.
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Well, I guess before we get started, I didn't chill the matrix chat. If you're not on the matrix chat, go to dispatch.com
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and, click that dot
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chat button. Even though we haven't
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had a dispatch in 3 weeks, that conversation in that chat has
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been fucking fire as usual. So if you're in that chat,
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not only are you participating in the live chat for the shows,
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but there's also just really great discussion on privacy, freedom, and Bitcoin
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in that chat.
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Yeah. So, I mean, where do you guys wanna start? Do you have something you wanna talk about? Or
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I just wanna do, like, a notable mention,
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because I saw it, and I think it'd be
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interesting to get your guys' opinion.
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The Lummus bill. Right? Oh, that's a fun thing to talk about.
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I didn't get a chance to look into the details. But,
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I don't know. What do you what do you guys think the look, I'm not a fan of government of regulation, but
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I don't know. What what are your guys' opinion on this? I have no I don't know what to think because I haven't looked into it.
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Yeah. I haven't I haven't read the bill. I mean, obviously, like I said, it it just dropped, and she's been kinda teasing it for a few days now.
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Definitely always wary of stuff like that. I mean, I think,
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a way that the state could kind of prevent a lot of Bitcoin's power and a lot of Bitcoin's good use cases is just trying to kind of co opt it and fold it back into a broken system. So I'm I'm very wary of, like, state sponsored pro Bitcoin stuff.
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But that's not to say that good things can't happen through regulation. It's just that regulation,
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especially cryptocurrency focused regulation, is usually
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a tool that gets used against freedom and doesn't promote it.
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But like I said, I I know nothing about this bill specifically, so I'll have to dig in and and see a little bit more of that. I guess it literally got released this morning. Yeah.
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I mean, I tend like, in general, what Seth what Seth said is kind of where I stand. I always say, like, when you see, like, the headline, like, breaking Bitcoin legalized somewhere, what it really means is is just, like, Bitcoin users in that country now have even more overbearing k y c regs. Yeah. It's usually the case.
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In this case, I did read through it briefly.
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First, I will say
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not to be a Debbie Downer, but
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probably zero chance this thing gets passed. But it's still good to see that it was proposed, and it was I'm not a big politics guy, but it was proposed. Lummis did it with Gillibrand, and Gillibrand is a big on the progressive side. So republican woman,
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democrat woman together to the bill. Good to see.
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But the one thing that was in it that was
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I I really liked seeing was
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a de minimis tax exemption. So Bitcoin spends under $200,
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which is a very low amount regardless, but
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at least it was in there. Right? This idea that, you know, you shouldn't be if you're just using this as a currency day to day.
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And And it's not even just the, you know, actually
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paying taxes. I think a lot of people
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support paying taxes if it's
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being spent efficiently or whatnot.
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It's the mental cost of actually, like, every time you you do a,
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you know, $5 transaction or $6 transaction or something,
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that you have to, like, keep track of it and and do that. So that was good to see,
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but,
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I kinda just saw that part, and I was like, oh, well, that's that's awesome. And then I just didn't really read the rest because I was setting up the studio this morning.
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The other thing that was really cool that came out today
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or I maybe even cooler than than that because I don't know if that's the coolest thing,
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is Gladstein and a bunch of activists basically did
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did you see the
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the tech innovators? I'm doing quote, unquote tech innovators that, like, post it they, like, sent a letter to congress. Yeah. And they were like, Bitcoin and cryptocurrency
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is is just bad for people. And
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they were like most blockchain projects have horrible privacy and the ones that do are safe havens for money launderers. Like they just like attacked on both sides, like damned if you do damned if you don't, and they were like, stifle us with heavy regulations.
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Gladstein and, like, 19
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human rights activists from around the world
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basically did the opposite of that letter today to US Congress. And I think it was financial inclusion dot tech is where that letter is. Yeah. Shout out to David Zell of the Bitcoin Policy Institute.
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Absolutely crushing it.
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That I always say this,
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they function as the Bitcoin lobbying arm. That's really what they do, and I think that
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in the next couple of years,
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it's gonna
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it's gonna be very important. Every time I talk to David, I'm like, when are you gonna move to DC?
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And he absolutely hates that question because I think he think he knows it's inevitable.
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He's a Nashville boy. He is a Nashville boy, but you gotta you gotta get into the heart of the swamp, you know, to deal with the creatures.
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So, yeah, shout out to That sounds like a horrible life. It totally
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ends. That's what it is. That's what it is. But, but someone's gotta do it. That's the thing. Maybe, like, Zelle hires someone underneath him to do it. This someone's gotta do it. Someone has to do it. And it can't be coin center. Okay? Because they totally dropped the effing ball, even though Jerry Brito, I know he works hard,
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but I think it's important that
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Bitcoin has its own
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lobbying arm. It's kinda cool that there's a bunch
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like, I'm
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I,
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the whole lobbying politics thing is something that I I think the whole point of Freedom Tech is that you can ignore that shit. Yeah. But it is good to see that there are so many there's there's multiple now Bitcoin only lobbying firms that aren't, like, focused on DeFi and tokens. And I think during the transition,
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they're gonna be very important.
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Because, look, whether we like it or not, I think fiat's gonna be around
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for a good amount of time. Right? So until we get into a Bitcoin standard, I think,
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you know, as much as Bitcoiners hate politics and whatever,
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I'm a strong believer in look. I'd rather have these as many of these people on our side, then
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have some adversarial people. Right. So that's kind of the logic that I have, even though I
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I think politics is a shit coin, and, hopefully, Bitcoin makes it irrelevant.
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Yeah. I mean, it's definitely one of the ways always those interesting pieces because, like, lobbying has obviously a lot of bad
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connotations, and people understand that it it's something that's leveraged for a lot of very, very negative things
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kind of in the political world. So doing it for Bitcoin has always been a weird kind of paradox for me. I I understand the point, and it's one of those things where, like,
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I would never get involved in it, but, like, I have respect for the people who do it and do it well and are actually trying to promote
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things that promote freedom and not just kind of fitting Bitcoin into a broken system. So I think there is a space for that and, like, especially the explanations to people to get them to understand, like, what Bitcoin actually is.
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But I definitely do think we need to be
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be wary that we don't kind of just get slowly boiled in a regulatory
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pot
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where they're able to kinda slowly take control and make it so that, yeah, you can have your Bitcoin, but you can't use it the way you want. Because, ultimately, if we lose that that freedom money, that freedom tech piece of it, we're losing what Bitcoin ultimately brings to us.
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So that's always where, like I think there's a hard line to to ride there, but there's definitely been some some interesting and good work done
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specifically on educating people within the government and educating
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people who are big names at least on what Bitcoin is.
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I,
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I mean, so Gladstein I was just in Oslo,
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and Gladstein,
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He, like, got a bunch of, the activists and some some Bitcoiners and brought them to Norwegian parliament to educate them.
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And I was not invited.
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And I'm pretty sure it's like every Bitcoiner has different strengths or whatever, and he was just like, he's gonna walk into Norwegian parliament and just be like, fuck all of
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you.
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I don't want your regs. I don't want you involved.
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Probably not the per the perfect person to
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be the pro regulatory
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Bitcoin person. I mean, but that's the beauty of this kind of thing. Right? Is that is that Bitcoiners find, you know,
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what they can
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contribute, and and they help everyone has their different skill sets, and they focus on different things.
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And I think it's it's a very optimistic
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approach too. I I think, like, one of the reasons why I trend against
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the regulatory
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lobbying, all of that,
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is because I I guess maybe I'm a little bit less optimistic about the way that a tool like this
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can work in the current system. But I I do like that, like, there's a lot I think there's a lot of optimism in the people who see that that maybe
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Bitcoin can fit in as a tool to to slowly improve the system rather than, like, burning it to the ground because, like, anarchy has a lot of problems.
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So if we can do it in a way that's
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peaceable and slow and yet still get the most out of Bitcoin and and the things that it can bring as a tool, I think there there may be value in that, and it's a very optimistic view. I I just and I I think that, you know, part of the reason that Bitcoiners
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well, let me speak for myself better said.
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I think that we know deep down inside that
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if a politician supports Bitcoin, what they're really doing,
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whether it's directly or indirectly, they're they're really
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sacrificing their power,
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then they're giving it up.
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So I mean, the people that are meant to so called regulate the industry,
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the incentives are not aligned whatsoever.
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That's kind of the way that I see it.
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Obviously, you know, there's some, but I think that a lot of a lot of these
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bureaucrats are
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their parasites, and they feed off the
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the fiat system, so they're not incentivized for that system to go anywhere. And these are the same people that are supposed to regulate.
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Like,
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I don't know. That that's how I feel about it.
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Yeah.
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I think definitely a little bit of pushback there on my end. I mean, I
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I don't know. I don't know that they are trying to give up power as part of that, and I think most of them there are probably some ones that are
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very
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that very much want to bring freedom through politics, which are very, like, good,
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sincere people. They're few and far between in the political world, but there are some there.
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But I think
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Bitcoin can very much be leveraged as a tool to continue their power. It's not something that just, if we do nothing,
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will break down a broken system and bring a perfect world. And I think that's
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one of the traps that I see a lot of Bitcoiners and other people. I mean, I even think people in other projects,
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talking in a way that kind of like, kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable
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thing. And I think that can lead to a lot of dangerous things, like the current
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very KYC friendly,
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crowd that has a lot of big winners, but really just a lot of people in the whole cryptocurrency space, very per regulation.
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Many are pro chain analysis, which is absolutely nuts, but there are many people that are like that. And a lot of that stuff comes from
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politicians who know that they can actually turn Bitcoin into a tool that, if nothing else, does nothing to break down their power,
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and in some ways, could even improve it. And I think, like, the KYC StackSats thing is a an example of that because it
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it feels like
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what, Matt?
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I I just gave stuff to look. I don't know. I just feel like
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Stack Sats is is a bigger meme than KYC Stack No. No. That's why I was trying to be specific. I was trying to be specific because, like, people who are stacking sets in a way that is KYC free and, like, they're using Bisque. They use Or miners. Deco. Yeah. Or miners. Shop owners. All those all those are, like to sellers the right way to approach it. Yeah. Building circular economy, great way to stack sats working for Bitcoin.
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There are are really good ways to do it, but I was trying to be specific in, like that I'm I'm talking bad about the KYC stack sets. Like, you just set up your your dollar cost averaging, and you walk away. Post the screenshots on Twitter.
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Exactly. Of how much you just bought in Cash App every every 3 hours.
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That I think just that kind of thing, people can get pulled into this trap of thinking Bitcoin is inevitable. And even though I sacrifice all of the freedom principles that I care about now, if I do it and have more Bitcoin, that's gonna fix the world, and that's gonna fix my future.
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And I think that's definitely something we should be wary of and and is something where that could be leveraged to be an easy trap for the few people who actually are freedom focused because then, man, I know Matt's talked about this a ton. This is a common topic is how KYC can link to a nice tidy list of Bitcoiners that they can go to. Most are just gonna give in, and and the few that fight, they're gonna now have their their name on a list and all that. So I think just a little pushback on that idea and a lot of what I hear about the kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable
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thing and and sacrificing
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for that Bitcoin is inevitable beam, I think, is is a a dangerous value problem. So one sec. So the first thing is,
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circular economy. The idea of bootstrapping a circular economy is something,
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that I've become very passionate about, and I think there's a lot of momentum there.
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And it's one of the focuses with the Bitcoin Park initiative.
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And, also, this idea of, like, these grassroots Bitcoin communities popping up, like, it's really fucking cool, all these meetups that are just growing around the world, and they're they're happening at a time when everyone was locked down and most people weren't seeing each other. But these Bitcoin communities were growing, and they they all pretty much grew organically. There's not, like, a top down thing that's happening.
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So, ultimately,
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on the KYC conversation, I always
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kinda go back to,
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it seems mostly like it's a pain point of our current position in the adoption cycle because most people will not be buying Bitcoin in the future. They will they will be earning Bitcoin, and most people will not be selling Bitcoin. They'll be spending Bitcoin.
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I actually I forget who said it, but someone said, like, a good
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I don't love the meme.
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I actually love the meme, we're still early, but I don't love the comment, we're still early. But someone made an interesting comment,
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that as long as you're buying Bitcoin and selling Bitcoin, you're still early because 99% of people that interact with Bitcoin for the lifetime of Bitcoin
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will not be buying or selling it. They'll be earning or spending it.
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And I don't think we're late. I think everyone who comes into Bitcoin
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always thinks they're late. Like, I thought I was late when I came in. But I wanna point the question at Nico because
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this is something that I've drunkenly been asking Bitcoiners a lot. All over us, I was asking this. The question is, is Bitcoin inevitable?
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Absolutely. I think that
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the sorry to push back a little bit on stuff. For it. I think that the incentives
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are
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irresistible.
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A good example of that,
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in my opinion, I think this was the 2nd biggest stress test that Bitcoin ever endured.
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And it passed it
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with such flying colors that if you weren't plugged into Twitter
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or you weren't checking the hash rate or you weren't checking the news, if you were just using Bitcoin, you would have you would have had no idea.
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And that is the Chinese Communist Party
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banned Bitcoin mining
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within its borders
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without any central authority or nothing.
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The Hash rate decentralized went all over the world. There's a bit of a concentration in the US. I don't like that way too much in the US.
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No coercion. It was all incentives. And the incentive is so strong,
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that in China,
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it's estimated that between 10 to 20 percent of the hash rate is still located in there. That means that there's Chinese that are risking to lose it all, or the government themselves or corrupt corruption
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that are still mining it. And that's the incentives. That's how strong the incentives are. And I think that
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government money, specifically CBDCs,
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will own they'll have to rely on coercion.
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So
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I, in my in my head, the equation is simple, right? I think incentives are much stronger than coercion.
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And I think that over the long run, that will prevail.
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But that doesn't mean that
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specifically in totalitarian governments
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that don't wanna give up that that power.
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They're gonna try whatever it takes,
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use whatever coercive measures,
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whether that's,
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try to
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make it on the App Store where every single wallet that you use is KYC or some BS because you know they're gonna try that or try to ban selfless app. Store attacks haven't really happened yet. That's definitely gonna
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That's 1,000%.
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I feel like 90% of Bitcoin users, if their Bitcoin wallet gets removed from the app store, they can be like, oh my god. What the hell's going on? It's gone. And what worries me and what keeps me up at night. Right? So, again, so to answer your original question Yes. Right, it's inevitable.
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And to kind of pivot a little bit, if I'm if I may, you could your floor is yours, bro.
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We were talking about this a little bit when we were having those delicious burgers.
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Dude,
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I would scares me
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is people I don't think people are ready for self custody. They're just not Like, I don't think they're ready for that. Like,
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and I see it in people's faces, especially like the older generation. I'm like,
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you just gotta write down those 24 words. You gotta put them on metal. You gotta put it in the safe plan of their life.
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They're they've been so in the matrix for the majority of their lives, the fiat matrix,
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that you just shock them with this, like, better system. My opinion, it's a lot easier and a lot safer
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that
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their brains just can't compute it. And I think the vast majority of the world is like that. Are you telling me that that person, El Salvador, is selling those pupusas
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knows how to properly store their seed?
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Or they use they might be using a mobile wallet that is self custody, but that's a lot of trust and that but they might not be actually backing it up. They're probably not using their own node.
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That's a lot of trust. And when trust is involved, governments could exploit that. Right? You get a government agency's like, okay,
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only government approved
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wallets in the App Store. And then you start exactly where where you started.
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Right? This is the whole FDR thing over again. Right? You give me your gold. And I'll give you this dollar. I promise it's backed by gold. Right? So we're we're right where we started. So I think that
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the the fight for self custody and the educational thing is so important. And I think that that's something that they're definitely going to attack, just how they're attacking proof of work right now.
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I think that the next inevitable step is attacking the right to self custody,
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because it's such a revolutionary
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thing. That was in the Lummis bill.
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Self custody? The right to self custody. That's Polish. The right to self custody, the terminology was digital assets. Hold your own digital assets.
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So she they were definitely on point on that to have that on. I mean, I look. At the end of the day, right, this whole movement is a movement of personal responsibility,
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and most people
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have lived their whole lives
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shirking as much personal responsibility as possible. Like, our society is literally set up in a way
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to have the least amount of personal responsibility
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to to to even, like, little things, right, where
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every I mean, everyone's getting sued for everything, you know, because it's never someone's
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own personal fault
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that something happened. There's always, like, 3 people you can blame that might have big money bags that you can hit them with. Or,
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yeah, just every single aspect of our society lacks personal responsibility, and it's gonna take a while for people to
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to learn to take personal responsibility back.
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And I'm
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this weird pessimist optimist where, like, my optimistic take is always that
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children need to touch the stove, and, like, people learn
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by getting burned. Right? So I expect a lot of fucking pain,
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and but then, ultimately, people learn and get rewired a bit into how they handle it. And, I mean, I was talking to you earlier
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about my conversation with Dario
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of Moon Wallet with 2Us.
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And,
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you know, he's from Argentina, and he just there was, like, all these Argentinians, and a lot of them use stable coins,
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which, you know, everyone has different threat models. Everyone has different things that they're working on. But the most important thing to me when people are using these tools is that they understand the trade offs. And he was he
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he had spent years trying to educate people on the trade offs of using stable coins and centralization
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risk,
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and a lot of them got burned on Terra.
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They were all holding Terra because they thought that was the decentralized stablecoin, quote, unquote, compared to Tether,
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and they all lost all their money overnight. And that did more for education of the risks of centralized,
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you know, centralized
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currencies
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than any kind of education effort that ever came before that. Right. But the unfortunate part is that people got burned.
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To the inevitable point, I kind of fall in between the 2 of you.
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I honestly do believe Bitcoin's inevitable.
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I'm just
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I don't believe freedom money
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is inevitable. I don't believe Bitcoin as freedom money is necessarily inevitable. I think
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Bitcoin is code, and at the end of the day, it's a movement of people and relies on people to actually stand up and fight for their freedom
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and defend their rights,
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and use the tools.
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There's a very real possibility to me
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that, you know, Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency of the world, that the purchasing power is significantly higher than it is today.
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But maybe 5% are actually using it in, like, a freedom sovereign way, and 95% of people are just using it in a completely cucked way.
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And so, I mean, that nuance, I don't think, is ever really captured in the Bitcoin is inevitable conversation.
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Yeah. I mean, I think that's a really good middle ground. I think that's probably even closer to where I fall than I had thought about,
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just that, like, the
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Bitcoin, the chain, Bitcoin, the currency is
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I feel like we're probably at that point where it's not it's not gonna disappear. Like, I don't think Bitcoin's gonna die. I don't think it's gonna
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fail in a catastrophic way, but, yeah, that way of, like, what is its
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success in quotes actually mean in the future, I think, is a very important question. And that's where a lot of the the questions around
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mining centralization,
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around private usage, around lightning, around all of these, around self custody, all of these topics, I think, are vital to decide
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what is this future that has Bitcoin in it, whether that's a Bitcoin standard, hyperbitcoinization,
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or just Bitcoin being another thing that's part of the the current system?
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How how are people who actually do wake up, who do get burned, who do realize the necessity of of personal freedom and financial freedom, specifically?
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What can they actually get out of Bitcoin?
383
00:32:01.610 --> 00:32:24.805
And I think that's where a lot of the a lot of the wake up calls for people need to come in those situations where people get burned. I think, like, the Freedom Convoy was a great example of people getting burned, and I think a lot of Bitcoiners woke up to some of the the issues with Bitcoin privacy and with the approach to using Bitcoin for that specific use case and the things that that go into that, the OPSEC, all of that. But I think more and more scenarios like that are going to happen,
384
00:32:25.265 --> 00:32:31.685
and it's really going to be those are gonna be the deciding moments in how useful will Bitcoin be and how much
385
00:32:32.050 --> 00:32:37.190
change will it bring for those people who do wake up, based on how we respond in those situations.
386
00:32:37.730 --> 00:32:38.130
So I'm
387
00:32:38.770 --> 00:32:44.605
I hope that Bitcoiners stay open to feedback, stay open to the possibility of Bitcoin not succeeding perfectly,
388
00:32:45.304 --> 00:32:52.890
so that we can keep an eye out for the things that we need to focus on, the things that need to be improved, the things that need extra dev time, the things that need,
389
00:32:54.010 --> 00:33:04.595
potentially changes on chain, like, whatever needs to happen to make this the most useful thing. People kinda need to stay open to that. But it'll be it'll be interesting to see what the next kind
390
00:33:05.055 --> 00:33:14.110
of touching the burner moment is because, ultimately, I mean, the the same applies for Bitcoin. It applies for personal privacy. It applies in almost every area where self responsibility is involved.
391
00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:19.445
You something has to make you decide, I actually want to put in the time and effort and be responsible
392
00:33:20.145 --> 00:33:22.485
because I know that what I gain from it is far more important.
393
00:33:22.865 --> 00:33:26.485
And so that's something where I'm curious what the next kinda moment of that is with Bitcoin.
394
00:33:27.090 --> 00:33:28.630
The North American mining centralization
395
00:33:29.250 --> 00:33:35.005
coupled with the push against proof of work should be scaring people, I think. I don't know. I would love if they if they,
396
00:33:35.785 --> 00:33:37.725
put mining restrictions in America.
397
00:33:38.025 --> 00:33:51.150
Yes. That would actually probably be kind of bullish because specifically, it'd be the warehouse public companies that got fucked. Mhmm. And then you know what's everyone's gonna do? They're gonna turn up that old s 9, and they're gonna spin it up in their garage. It'll be great.
398
00:33:51.795 --> 00:33:56.135
But I kind of wanted to add to that thing. You're talking about burning
399
00:33:56.675 --> 00:33:57.975
your finger on the stove.
400
00:33:58.675 --> 00:33:59.175
So
401
00:33:59.639 --> 00:34:01.899
what I've noticed, I've picked up a pattern.
402
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.220
And it's a very striking pattern. And
403
00:34:06.815 --> 00:34:07.315
look,
404
00:34:07.934 --> 00:34:15.395
you try to convince someone about Bitcoin and they live in a western country, to use Gladstein's own words, they have financial privilege,
405
00:34:16.490 --> 00:34:18.910
Very hard sell. They're like, to use too much energy,
406
00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:23.470
I have Cash App. I have PayPal, Venmo. I was like, why does that need to exist?
407
00:34:24.475 --> 00:34:27.535
I pitch a Venezuelan or a Latino team. I say,
408
00:34:27.835 --> 00:34:28.335
nongovernment
409
00:34:28.715 --> 00:34:32.495
money that is hard to confiscate that can't be debased. And
410
00:34:33.340 --> 00:34:40.000
in 10 seconds, they say, how do I sign up? Because the difference between the two is that as an American,
411
00:34:41.165 --> 00:34:44.305
specifically in the in the beginning, you see Bitcoin as an investment.
412
00:34:45.165 --> 00:34:46.545
Whereas in the Argentine,
413
00:34:47.085 --> 00:34:48.945
the Venezuelan, the Afghani,
414
00:34:50.290 --> 00:34:50.790
right,
415
00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:53.270
they see it as a necessity.
416
00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:55.190
They don't have another option.
417
00:34:55.570 --> 00:34:59.315
And this is kind of the tragedy of stable coins. Right? And this is why I'm like
418
00:35:00.835 --> 00:35:04.935
hate is a strong word, but I'll use the word, whatever that word is, below hate.
419
00:35:06.115 --> 00:35:08.055
I don't like them because they provide
420
00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:09.119
they
421
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:12.640
they prove they give this sense they give a false refuge.
422
00:35:13.180 --> 00:35:15.040
And and, Matt, you were actually
423
00:35:15.635 --> 00:35:21.095
telling us a story about the Argentines using Luna because they bought into the whole tether fund.
424
00:35:21.715 --> 00:35:25.530
And they got totally wrecked. And here's the thing, stable what?
425
00:35:25.990 --> 00:35:27.530
It's stable on the way down?
426
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:29.290
Is stable 2%
427
00:35:29.670 --> 00:35:35.015
like lose money slowly? Is that stability? Or is in Bitcoin? It's like, fine. Yeah, it's volatile.
428
00:35:36.115 --> 00:35:40.720
But you look at the purchasing power of Bitcoin over 2 or 3 years, that thing's just going up.
429
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:50.705
So the how do we convince more people specifically in countries that actually need it, right? And I would say in the West, they need it too, but they just haven't found that out yet.
430
00:35:52.385 --> 00:35:53.845
How do we convince people
431
00:35:54.385 --> 00:35:56.005
to stay away from these,
432
00:35:56.625 --> 00:35:58.405
these false safe havens
433
00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.620
and actually
434
00:36:00.080 --> 00:36:03.380
use something that will actually give them financial sovereignty.
435
00:36:03.680 --> 00:36:09.635
That that I think is is a very difficult problem to solve. But I think that I think it's a solvable problem.
436
00:36:10.095 --> 00:36:16.994
Because the incentive like, they're incentivized to understand something like that, right? Because in the in the United States, you're not incentivized,
437
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.460
Right? Like you, let's say you get a you have a good job, you have a good salary.
438
00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:23.380
You know, you have your 401k.
439
00:36:24.215 --> 00:36:28.235
Like okay, yeah, I like Bitcoin. It's cool, but you don't really understand the revolutionary
440
00:36:28.615 --> 00:36:29.995
aspect unless like,
441
00:36:30.375 --> 00:36:32.875
you know, you start asking a little bit of questions, right?
442
00:36:33.390 --> 00:36:34.210
But the Venezuelan
443
00:36:34.670 --> 00:36:38.770
the the personnel Salvador selling pupusas is a whole other
444
00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:40.610
whole other debate.
445
00:36:40.994 --> 00:36:43.255
I mean, so there's a couple of things here. First of all,
446
00:36:45.395 --> 00:36:47.895
just a little bit of history lesson for Bitcoiners.
447
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.220
A lot of Bitcoiners think that stablecoins
448
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.260
were
449
00:36:52.560 --> 00:36:54.099
something that was, like, added
450
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.099
post Bitcoin. But, really, if you look at most of the pre
451
00:36:58.425 --> 00:36:59.565
cypherpunk money
452
00:37:00.105 --> 00:37:01.005
before Bitcoin,
453
00:37:01.465 --> 00:37:09.760
they all basically ended up having a trusted third party that was that had some kind of USD in a bank account or some kind of pegged value.
454
00:37:10.779 --> 00:37:15.885
The novel thing about Bitcoin is that you actually have this this bearer token that exists only in the digital realm.
455
00:37:16.445 --> 00:37:19.905
So you're actually able to eliminate that final centralized third party.
456
00:37:20.925 --> 00:37:32.109
So I mean, and just in general, I think that's probably where most people heads go first. Right? Which is okay, I want digital money, and I want it to be the same money that I want already. Right? That's a whole different education
457
00:37:32.410 --> 00:37:34.190
thing that I don't even know
458
00:37:34.645 --> 00:37:40.185
if it necessarily needs to be a top down education or even a grassroots education. Like I think that's just
459
00:37:40.565 --> 00:37:46.940
that's a reframing of what you think about money, which is that that money is is not something that's issued by a state or corporation.
460
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:51.180
It's something that exists on its own in this in this digital realm.
461
00:37:53.235 --> 00:37:55.815
The idea of being able to send payments
462
00:37:57.075 --> 00:37:58.055
around the world
463
00:37:58.640 --> 00:37:59.380
with minimized
464
00:37:59.680 --> 00:38:14.725
trusted third parties and minimize censorship is something that people can grasp really quickly, which is why I think stable coins have been very successful, particularly in parts of the world where their own government currency is fucking horrible. So they're like, okay. I can and they a lot of these people, they can't use, like, PayPal. They can't use,
465
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.540
Western Union or something because they get blocked out.
466
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.100
The other thing is so when I was in
467
00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:25.125
one of the interviews I did for this this documentary series that's coming out is with Roya.
468
00:38:25.665 --> 00:38:29.525
And Roya started she's from Afghanistan. In 2010, she started,
469
00:38:30.819 --> 00:38:34.119
I might butcher their name, but I think it's called Citadel Software Company.
470
00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.520
Way ahead of the curve on the Citadel meme.
471
00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:43.125
I asked her how she was way ahead of the curve, and she started it in a town that had like an old Afghani citadel in it. So
472
00:38:44.464 --> 00:38:46.644
she had a very good reason to use that. But
473
00:38:47.830 --> 00:38:52.970
her big thing was empowering women in Afghanistan. She was a woman in Afghanistan. She wanted to empower women in Afghanistan.
474
00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:55.850
80% of her employees were women in Afghanistan,
475
00:38:56.715 --> 00:39:03.455
and these women aren't weren't allowed to have bank accounts. They needed permission from a man or a family member to have bank accounts.
476
00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:07.540
They were completely excluded from the financial system in their society.
477
00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:19.684
So the sell for Bitcoin, like you said, when you talk to, like, Venezuelans or Argentinians, was a very it wasn't even a sale. They had no other option. They had this need. They they wanted to get paid. They wanted to be able to hold their own value,
478
00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:24.099
So they moved to Bitcoin. So in 2013, she started paying them in Bitcoin.
479
00:39:25.359 --> 00:39:27.619
She did massive education campaigns
480
00:39:28.115 --> 00:39:33.415
throughout the country, but they were all mostly focused on women because the women were excluded from the financial system.
481
00:39:33.955 --> 00:39:36.055
She had a good friend who rose.
482
00:39:37.109 --> 00:39:38.330
He became a very,
483
00:39:38.869 --> 00:39:40.570
powerful politician in Afghanistan.
484
00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:48.405
And they would have these, like, spirited debates on Bitcoin. And he's like, our financial system is the best it's ever been in Afghan history.
485
00:39:48.865 --> 00:39:53.125
There's no need for me to use this thing that's, like, super volatile, blah blah blah.
486
00:39:53.850 --> 00:39:55.310
Taliban come into power,
487
00:39:55.850 --> 00:39:58.910
take over everything. They seize all of his assets,
488
00:39:59.690 --> 00:40:03.615
seize absolutely everything he owns. He he escapes from the country,
489
00:40:04.474 --> 00:40:07.375
like, by foot across the border with just a backpack.
490
00:40:08.474 --> 00:40:20.730
Gets the other side, him and Roya start talking. He's like, I completely see why Bitcoin should exist. Right? And but he so so you have this situation where one of the cool parts about Bitcoin to me is the disadvantaged
491
00:40:21.895 --> 00:40:24.635
see the the power of this technology first. Right?
492
00:40:24.935 --> 00:40:29.595
Because the people that are in power, the people that benefit from the current financial system
493
00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:33.090
have no need to see it. They're gonna get burned at a later date.
494
00:40:33.950 --> 00:40:39.855
But, ultimately, it's inevitable for for people to find the need somewhere to get canceled out of these systems somewhere.
495
00:40:41.215 --> 00:40:41.715
Absolutely.
496
00:40:42.415 --> 00:40:44.835
She's awesome, by the way. Rory is really inspiring.
497
00:40:45.615 --> 00:40:47.555
She sounds she sounds like an OG.
498
00:40:47.855 --> 00:41:02.875
The OG of the OG. Even came up with Citadel because there was natural Citadel. The Citadel software company. How cool is that fucking name? That's great. While I was interviewing, I was like, yeah. I have another show, Citadel Dispatch, but, unfortunately, that's not the one we're recording on right now. It would've been too fucking perfect.
499
00:41:04.454 --> 00:41:05.914
I wanna go back to
500
00:41:06.375 --> 00:41:07.595
the Freedom Convoy,
501
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.780
because I think this was a pivotal thing on the western side of the world Mhmm.
502
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.480
That I thought was gonna be a
503
00:41:16.625 --> 00:41:19.605
like, I thought when people go back and they're like, what are
504
00:41:19.985 --> 00:41:22.165
the biggest events that happened
505
00:41:23.185 --> 00:41:24.245
in Freedom Technology
506
00:41:25.470 --> 00:41:26.370
in general or Bitcoin in general
507
00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:34.290
over the last year, Freedom Convoy would be probably the top thing that someone said. But I think if you ask the majority of people right now,
508
00:41:35.214 --> 00:41:37.474
they might not even remember that it happened.
509
00:41:38.015 --> 00:41:39.714
Just like most people don't
510
00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:41.795
know that the hash rate
511
00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:42.620
migration,
512
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:44.620
but they don't know unless you
513
00:41:45.080 --> 00:41:47.180
have your finger on the pulse. Right.
514
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:50.700
I, you know, I know I have a different opinion
515
00:41:51.835 --> 00:41:52.734
than you, Matt.
516
00:41:53.434 --> 00:41:55.615
But I think it was a very big
517
00:41:56.315 --> 00:42:03.319
middle finger because it was like, there's definitely a middle finger, dude, the state couldn't because state couldn't seize all of it.
518
00:42:03.619 --> 00:42:08.440
Like, they they didn't get their way. The the they only got their way. I think it was, like, on 20%.
519
00:42:09.285 --> 00:42:12.025
Right? And they scared the crap out of a lot of people, but
520
00:42:12.325 --> 00:42:14.265
the vast majority is nonrecovered.
521
00:42:14.565 --> 00:42:18.025
Like, when the hell that never happens. Yeah. But the I mean
522
00:42:18.382 --> 00:42:24.300
so, so, like, with GoFundMe, they, like, pressed a button and and just all the money was taken. Right? So, like, with Bitcoin, you can't do that.
523
00:42:26.055 --> 00:42:29.275
But most of the public organizers of that freedom convoy
524
00:42:29.815 --> 00:42:48.535
are engaged in civil lawsuits right now with the government for 100 of 1,000,000 of dollars. What about So I don't think that story is over yet necessarily. Right? It's not over, but what about all the other unknowns that people the I would say, you know, this is why every time I see Ben, like, I'm like, dude, you're the man. And I was actually really lucky because
525
00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:51.589
I was on the first podcast
526
00:42:52.930 --> 00:42:54.550
that he did when he got back.
527
00:42:54.930 --> 00:42:59.715
When he when he stopped podcasting for a while, he stopped doing his his show. I love the show.
528
00:43:01.235 --> 00:43:04.695
Stopped doing it for a while, man. And he first he came back.
529
00:43:05.155 --> 00:43:09.289
1st show he did. It was me and James Lavish. And dude,
530
00:43:09.589 --> 00:43:10.089
like
531
00:43:11.750 --> 00:43:14.410
you, the look on his face is like he went to war.
532
00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:18.010
But how many people benefited because of his actions?
533
00:43:18.455 --> 00:43:22.555
And if this is really a revolution, like we say, we like, we say it is,
534
00:43:23.895 --> 00:43:26.955
isn't this part of it? Isn't this part of fighting for freedom?
535
00:43:28.160 --> 00:43:33.540
I don't know my and again, like, I'm I understand. And I might be a little bit biased here because
536
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:34.740
I come
537
00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:36.660
from
538
00:43:37.315 --> 00:43:40.055
I come from a country that was destroyed by collectivism,
539
00:43:40.915 --> 00:43:43.015
or Venezuela, and I come to America.
540
00:43:43.955 --> 00:43:46.055
And it's the last bastion of freedom.
541
00:43:47.220 --> 00:43:49.720
And when I see people attacking that,
542
00:43:50.020 --> 00:43:51.480
I react very negatively,
543
00:43:52.100 --> 00:43:54.760
more so than someone that grew up here,
544
00:43:55.075 --> 00:43:57.655
because they don't understand how bad things could get.
545
00:43:58.035 --> 00:43:58.535
So
546
00:43:59.555 --> 00:44:04.820
I really see it from that angle, and I really appreciate all those guys, Jeff Booth, Greg Foss,
547
00:44:05.620 --> 00:44:10.360
BT, Ben. There's a couple others, man. Nobody Caribou.
548
00:44:10.900 --> 00:44:13.000
Yeah. They they they are warriors.
549
00:44:13.615 --> 00:44:18.755
They in this different type of war that we're fighting. It's not a kinetic war. It's a different type of war. I
550
00:44:19.375 --> 00:44:20.835
can't really describe it.
551
00:44:21.289 --> 00:44:21.789
But,
552
00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:28.589
yeah, they're they're they're legends, man. Even if they're even if it's not known to most people, I I think that
553
00:44:28.915 --> 00:44:30.775
history will show otherwise.
554
00:44:31.795 --> 00:44:33.255
What's your take here, Seth?
555
00:44:33.715 --> 00:44:44.080
I mean, I think the I think it's mostly forgotten because it doesn't mean anything to people who are just in Bitcoin for financial gain. Like, the the speculators could care less that the Freedom Convoy happened.
556
00:44:44.845 --> 00:44:48.224
I think there is something to say even if you are just a speculator that if
557
00:44:48.765 --> 00:44:50.065
Bitcoin didn't succeed
558
00:44:50.845 --> 00:44:58.150
in that scenario, and I definitely would not say that Bitcoin succeeded in that scenario or that Bitcoiners did. I'm I'm definitely much more on the
559
00:44:58.610 --> 00:45:10.565
the negative side of that whole thing, but I I think it it should be a it should have been, and I think it was not as much of a wake up call as I expected. But I think it should have been a wake up call to people that Bitcoin in its current state
560
00:45:11.109 --> 00:45:11.769
is not
561
00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:20.089
an amazing tool for freedom in these use cases. And we saw I think a lot of the problems came down to just poor OPSEC and poor decisions,
562
00:45:21.095 --> 00:45:37.310
and that applies no matter what currency or cryptocurrency you're using. Of it wasn't even Bitcoin related. Right? Like, there's the fact that Nikko just rattled out all the names that were involved. Yeah. Everyone who was involved, so they videoed all of the truckers who they gave funds to with their truck info and everything. Like, I mean, all that stuff was
563
00:45:37.885 --> 00:45:42.945
a major mistake if you actually wanted those people to be able to use those funds freely and not get tracked down.
564
00:45:43.245 --> 00:45:52.120
But I think we also saw saw with Bitcoin, like, yes, the some of the funds were not complicated as far as we know. We actually don't know if any of them are free and being used.
565
00:45:52.500 --> 00:46:01.705
We know that soon afterwards, 75% had not been moved from the wallets they've been sent to. All of this is transparent on chain. All of the wallet or wallets are tagged. Every output is blacklisted.
566
00:46:02.059 --> 00:46:08.799
We know that 75% hadn't been moved, so they hadn't been claimed by the people who'd they had been given to. And then we know 20 to 25%
567
00:46:09.425 --> 00:46:13.605
were confiscated because they were sent to KYC exchanges, where the exchanges obviously are
568
00:46:13.905 --> 00:46:34.685
cooperating and and giving over names, IDs, and Like, talk about it talk about an education short fall when you have truckers who are, you know, fighting an oppressive government, and they send it to Coinbase. But the the problem and I think the real problem comes down to what you mentioned earlier about needing to drive circular economies. Because the problem was you give out this Bitcoin to people, which I think is a it's a fascinating idea and
569
00:46:35.065 --> 00:46:38.290
very well meaning. But you give all these Bitcoin to truckers who,
570
00:46:38.910 --> 00:46:45.170
all the politics aside, they needed fuel, they needed food, they needed real life things, and you gave them Bitcoin where there's no circular economy
571
00:46:45.474 --> 00:46:51.095
for the most part. There is some like, maybe they could have used, like, Bitrefill or something. Did you see my tweet at the time, my idea?
572
00:46:51.635 --> 00:46:54.214
That, like, if we normalize protesters raising
573
00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:55.539
Bitcoin donations,
574
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:57.220
we should also normalize
575
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:05.365
Bitcoiners going to protest for no KYC free sets. Yeah. Yeah. If you just show up to a protest with, like, 500 local fiat, you know, and
576
00:47:05.745 --> 00:47:15.430
you just you just find a protester that has a bunch of Bitcoin they need to get rid of? That would have been perfect. I mean, they needed people who could have taken Bitcoin and fill a gas pump, like, pay for the gas pump. Right. There's
577
00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:27.275
that's one of the other problems is, like, if we have no circular economy, in those scenarios, Bitcoin's kind of useless. Because you can store value, but you can't actually spend it and get real life things. We have, like, the stepping stone stuff, like,
578
00:47:27.735 --> 00:47:30.555
the gift cards. Right? Like, so with, like, Yeah.
579
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.220
They might hate me for say well, their lawyers will hate me for saying this. But, like, the Bitcoin company, you can buy Visa cards
580
00:47:38.839 --> 00:47:39.660
via lightning.
581
00:47:41.454 --> 00:47:42.675
Right? So, like, those truckers,
582
00:47:43.375 --> 00:47:52.960
even with blacklisted UTXOs, they could have opened or, like, if if if someone goes there and and gives them cash for their Bitcoin, and they're a Bitcoiner that knows what they're doing, they can then,
583
00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:58.845
you know, spend via lightning to the Bitcoin company. The Bitcoin company doesn't know which UTXO has opened,
584
00:47:59.224 --> 00:48:00.045
that channel,
585
00:48:00.664 --> 00:48:01.404
and then,
586
00:48:03.385 --> 00:48:16.895
have a Visa gift card where they can spend everywhere. Like, is that is that ideal? No. That's not ideal, but That would have been the best case for me. Talking about it all the time because, like, the Monero community loves coin cards. Right? Yeah. No. And it's a stop gap that is useful.
587
00:48:17.994 --> 00:48:38.455
And that's what I that's what I was saying. Like, that's the only thing they really could have done is convert to gift cards and use those. Although, to be honest, then wouldn't the better solution be just giving them cards and not Well, no. That's the problem. It's hard to give them gift cards. Right? It's easy to send Bitcoin around the world. It would be hard for well but people could have donated Bitcoin, and then they just bought gift cards and handed that out to truckers with the donation. Idea. Or, like, take the Bitcoin and just buy
588
00:48:38.915 --> 00:48:54.055
fuel and shit the truckers need and then give the truckers that instead of just handing them Bitcoin and being like, good luck. Yeah. The problem is it's fitting this use case. It's not just the self sovereign HODL thing. It's that we actually need to spend and use it, which is, I think, been less of a focus on Bitcoin
589
00:48:54.355 --> 00:49:01.575
in the Bitcoin community, but I I think there is a good push right now. It feels like it for Circular Economy, for really kind of driving things. And
590
00:49:02.450 --> 00:49:10.645
whatever you think about Lightning, I think that's been one of the good things with Lightning is it's kinda brought back a lot of circular economy topics and a lot of actually spending Bitcoin and
591
00:49:11.205 --> 00:49:20.799
making it a useful tool, trying to drive merchant adoption, all of these things, which is really valuable, and I think a lot of the the crux of the issue. Because even if the UTXOs were known and blacklisted,
592
00:49:21.260 --> 00:49:25.680
if they could actually spin them and then if the merchants knew how to properly handle them,
593
00:49:25.985 --> 00:49:27.365
it could have been okay.
594
00:49:27.985 --> 00:49:34.085
But, obviously, the way that things went down was Because the blacklists are enforced at the regulated on ramps and off ramps.
595
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:35.660
That's where they're enforced.
596
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:37.100
There's no
597
00:49:38.200 --> 00:49:49.974
I mean, I guess some of the gift card providers are probably also enforcing them as well. Yeah. I'm sure pretty much anyone who could have received Bitcoin would have been liable for that, and they would have I mean, they the RCMP was actively monitoring
598
00:49:50.355 --> 00:49:55.420
those UTXOs to see when they moved to track them down. So I mean, if you sent them The Royal Canadian Mounties
599
00:49:55.819 --> 00:50:02.115
Which I think is hilarious. The Mounties were tracking Bitcoin, but They show up to your house with like ARs on horseback.
600
00:50:03.295 --> 00:50:04.495
You know the red suit that they
601
00:50:05.135 --> 00:50:06.275
We're here for your Bitcoin.
602
00:50:11.359 --> 00:50:16.845
Yeah. Look. What I I I disagree with you a little bit, Seth. I would say that
603
00:50:17.325 --> 00:50:26.040
if we look back in history sorry, Matt. I have to lean in. If we look back and It sees me, like, juicing this thought. I was like, okay. Absolutely. And then so I think if we look back in history,
604
00:50:27.220 --> 00:50:27.960
I think,
605
00:50:28.900 --> 00:50:33.400
you know, if we do the separation of money and save, we're right. Right?
606
00:50:33.835 --> 00:50:38.015
I think that the Canada event and the China event banning
607
00:50:38.394 --> 00:50:41.535
Bitcoin mining, the incentives come through, it's still there.
608
00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:46.350
The Canada thing, that's the only thing that the government could just couldn't snap their finger.
609
00:50:46.650 --> 00:50:55.394
And you could tell it put the fear of God in them. Russia to that Russia at a press conference, right, with the Russian sanctions. I mean, Russia got cans like, average Russians
610
00:50:56.595 --> 00:51:05.050
like, you people can disagree on the whole political situation in terms of the Russian government, but, you know, just average Russians got completely canceled from the global financial system. Yep.
611
00:51:05.350 --> 00:51:07.785
Of course. And is that and the thing is, like,
612
00:51:08.345 --> 00:51:11.484
is that worth it? Because the US has done that to Cuba.
613
00:51:11.944 --> 00:51:13.805
And the US did that in Afghanistan.
614
00:51:14.664 --> 00:51:19.360
And it the the example that you brought up earlier with this guy was like, no, the Afghan system
615
00:51:19.660 --> 00:51:20.480
is great.
616
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:22.240
And then he fully understand.
617
00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:24.960
Bitcoin is the only thing I mean,
618
00:51:25.405 --> 00:51:28.545
not Bitcoin. It's Bitcoin and the goddamn stable coins. Okay?
619
00:51:30.445 --> 00:51:30.945
And,
620
00:51:31.484 --> 00:51:34.145
those are the only things that still work. Everything else
621
00:51:34.850 --> 00:51:38.550
doesn't work. So I think that it if you look at it from
622
00:51:38.850 --> 00:51:43.910
a macro perspective, I think it was a very historical moment. I don't think Bitcoin failed.
623
00:51:44.295 --> 00:51:45.195
I think people
624
00:51:45.975 --> 00:51:46.475
using
625
00:51:47.015 --> 00:51:47.755
they didn't
626
00:51:48.215 --> 00:51:51.435
use Bitcoin's tools properly to fully exploit
627
00:51:51.800 --> 00:52:00.695
this to fully go around the system, so to speak. But don't you think it's a failure, at least maybe not a failure on Bitcoin, but it's a failure on Bitcoin
628
00:52:01.075 --> 00:52:02.135
promoters and educators
629
00:52:02.435 --> 00:52:03.095
and builders
630
00:52:03.555 --> 00:52:04.775
if if it requires
631
00:52:05.075 --> 00:52:09.940
it shouldn't require so much education. Like, I have so if you go to dispatch 57
632
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:16.340
in your favorite podcast app, like, I did 2 hour episode following the freedom convoy because I was so
633
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:18.020
broken by it,
634
00:52:18.785 --> 00:52:20.964
on how to raise Bitcoin crowdfunding
635
00:52:21.345 --> 00:52:22.244
in an authoritarian
636
00:52:22.865 --> 00:52:30.410
environment, an environment where you have an oppressive government that's actively trying to attack you and make your life miserable, close your bank accounts, put a gun to your head, seize your keys,
637
00:52:31.030 --> 00:52:33.450
and go after your donors, like people who are donating.
638
00:52:34.185 --> 00:52:38.285
And I think it was a very comprehensive conversation. I think most people could
639
00:52:39.545 --> 00:52:40.045
potentially
640
00:52:40.425 --> 00:52:46.370
we tried to make it as accessible as possible, and I think most people could go and listen to that and definitely be in, you know,
641
00:52:47.070 --> 00:52:51.890
a 100 x better situation than the Freedom Convoy where they reused addresses and
642
00:52:52.434 --> 00:52:55.815
made a lot of rookie mistakes, filmed the people they were donating to.
643
00:52:56.115 --> 00:52:56.615
But
644
00:52:58.355 --> 00:52:59.414
and I know it's
645
00:52:59.980 --> 00:53:01.440
I know it's still early.
646
00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:06.160
So I I I wanna lower my time preference a little bit and not be,
647
00:53:06.914 --> 00:53:09.654
you know, the angry impatient person in the room.
648
00:53:10.434 --> 00:53:14.775
But I've been I've been publicly talking about Bitcoin for 3 years now, so I get more
649
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:17.740
grumpy old man as I go.
650
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:19.900
But,
651
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:21.260
like, it shouldn't
652
00:53:21.640 --> 00:53:24.140
the end case where we're going with Bitcoin,
653
00:53:25.385 --> 00:53:29.645
the ultimate goal should not be that someone has to listen to a 2 hour podcast
654
00:53:30.825 --> 00:53:33.645
before they raise Bitcoin donations in an authoritarian
655
00:53:33.945 --> 00:53:34.445
environment.
656
00:53:34.940 --> 00:53:37.119
Right? Like, that's a failure on
657
00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:44.480
maybe not on Bitcoin, but it's a failure on the the people working on Bitcoin and working around Bitcoin.
658
00:53:44.845 --> 00:53:51.185
I mean, as you said, Bitcoin's code. Like, Bitcoin is the people behind it. So if if Bitcoin failed, it's the people who have been
659
00:53:51.859 --> 00:53:59.320
working on and building Bitcoin and educating all of those things, not maybe missing the point or missing the memo or not focusing on the right things.
660
00:53:59.859 --> 00:54:01.560
It it's not that there's some, like,
661
00:54:01.925 --> 00:54:04.105
sacrosanct thing that has failed, but,
662
00:54:04.805 --> 00:54:06.905
I I think a lot of it comes down to, like,
663
00:54:07.285 --> 00:54:15.480
are are we still early? Like, we're over a decade in this experiment. Yes. It's code, but we've known about the majority of these issues
664
00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:17.240
for a long time.
665
00:54:17.700 --> 00:54:18.200
Chainalysis
666
00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:19.880
has been around since 2014.
667
00:54:20.695 --> 00:54:28.795
Like One of the most valuable companies in the space. Which is nuts and should tell you a lot about what you need to know about, some of the issues that face Bitcoin.
668
00:54:29.819 --> 00:54:31.420
And I just I don't know. I I
669
00:54:32.220 --> 00:54:37.200
the we're still early thing, I the the same thing hits me for lightning, that it just feels like it kinda feels
670
00:54:37.660 --> 00:54:38.160
copy
671
00:54:38.605 --> 00:54:45.265
because I don't think we're that early. I know. That's why I, like, smile when I say it a little bit. Yeah. I wish there was video so they could've seen that. But it
672
00:54:45.565 --> 00:54:45.645
just
673
00:54:54.645 --> 00:54:56.425
by projects that shall not be named.
674
00:54:57.205 --> 00:54:59.625
But Lightning hasn't, like so
675
00:55:00.085 --> 00:55:02.585
so one of my frustration I've
676
00:55:04.220 --> 00:55:05.520
I've been very,
677
00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:12.079
publicly frustrated about some of the priorities in lightning development Mhmm. Lightning businesses.
678
00:55:13.464 --> 00:55:16.924
But these systems, you know, they exist, right, without centralized
679
00:55:17.464 --> 00:55:24.100
authority. And, I mean, Lightning less or so. But with Bitcoin, like, one of the key value props is extremely hard to change.
680
00:55:24.640 --> 00:55:26.400
So you need a lot of
681
00:55:29.184 --> 00:55:37.595
and it's hard to measure what that threshold is. It's it's a rough kind of consensus type of situation, but you you need a lot of motivation and momentum among all stakeholders to get any kind of real changes going on.
682
00:55:38.520 --> 00:55:41.339
Holders to get any kind of real changes going on.
683
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.020
Lightning to a lesser extent. But with lightning specifically,
684
00:55:45.835 --> 00:55:48.494
it just has not existed in an adversarial environment.
685
00:55:49.035 --> 00:55:50.015
Like, I had,
686
00:55:51.914 --> 00:55:54.974
I've had this public lightning node up since 2019.
687
00:55:56.220 --> 00:55:59.200
This this is it's a node that's being used for CITIL Dispatch,
688
00:55:59.900 --> 00:56:03.040
podcasting 2.0. So if you stream stats, it goes to that node.
689
00:56:05.095 --> 00:56:07.275
0 on the node. It's called cildispatch.com,
690
00:56:08.135 --> 00:56:10.635
you know, is the alias. Like, you know, it's it's
691
00:56:11.095 --> 00:56:12.315
it's my note. Ironically,
692
00:56:13.849 --> 00:56:21.950
when they were when the shit corners were saying, like, it's gonna be illegal to run a lightning note, I sent out a drunk tweet during, like, consensus 2020,
693
00:56:23.474 --> 00:56:36.500
in New York, because I was, like, drinking with a bunch of big corners. I was like, ah, damn it. Someone stole my note and put it behind Tor, But they're not closing channels. And they're still keeping fees low. And like a bunch of shit corners were like, quote, tweeting me. They're like, see lightning is a failed experiment.
694
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:38.420
I was like, okay, guys, but anyway,
695
00:56:39.175 --> 00:56:42.155
I had a buddy. He texted me the other day, and he was like,
696
00:56:43.255 --> 00:56:47.755
I'm doing some lightning privacy work, and I'm trying to, like, probe for private channels.
697
00:56:48.260 --> 00:56:55.480
And he's like, can I probe your node? And I was like, dude, it's a public node. Like, anyone could probe my node. Like, you don't have to ask permission to do this.
698
00:56:55.924 --> 00:57:11.475
And he was like, yeah. But can I? I was like, yeah. You can. And then he was like the next day, he was like, I hope you're fine with the 30 gigs of extra database entries that are in your note. And I was like, oh, that's why you're asking me. I didn't even realize that, like, any random person It's a lot of failed payments. Can just
699
00:57:11.955 --> 00:57:12.455
fucking
700
00:57:12.915 --> 00:57:16.055
completely fill up your database disk space. Yep.
701
00:57:16.435 --> 00:57:19.495
So, like, little so my my the point of the story is,
702
00:57:21.580 --> 00:57:23.040
the point of the story is
703
00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:27.980
is is lightning hasn't gone to that adversarial environment yet. Like, you you basically
704
00:57:28.300 --> 00:57:30.480
to to expect lightning to be robust
705
00:57:31.795 --> 00:57:32.935
without being attacked
706
00:57:33.235 --> 00:57:46.010
is just was never gonna happen. What what needs to happen is and what will eventually happen with all of these systems is they're gonna get attacked like fucking crazy. And the crazy thing to me is that it hasn't really happened yet. Like, if you look at the broader crypto space
707
00:57:46.785 --> 00:57:55.605
I mean, we're talking about chain surveillance. Like, the whole DeFi thing that's happening on ETH where everyone just reuses the same account number. It's all, like, publicly out in the open.
708
00:57:55.985 --> 00:58:06.310
Like, there and there are you hear about tax where, like, certain things are getting drained or certain but there there there hasn't really been, like, state level attacks, really comprehensive attacks.
709
00:58:06.785 --> 00:58:11.925
And these things are just never gonna get robust until these attacks happen. Now the hope is
710
00:58:12.305 --> 00:58:13.765
that the incentive structures
711
00:58:14.110 --> 00:58:16.930
that that Nico was talking about really kick in
712
00:58:17.870 --> 00:58:30.505
once these systems get attacked, and then the improvements are made. But until that happens, everyone's just, you know, on cloud 9 smelling the roses. Yeah. I mean, Lightning's a whole another ballpark because it's also immensely complex compared to
713
00:58:30.860 --> 00:58:35.760
Bitcoin itself. So that like, that one itself that that will take probably longer than Bitcoin does. So
714
00:58:36.060 --> 00:58:50.770
if we don't have great privacy on Bitcoin But it'd be a lot quicker if everyone's nodes start going down. Right? Yeah. No. For sure. And I think that's why I was hoping that the Freedom Convoy thing would be a little bit more of a wake up call to people for the Bitcoin privacy issues because that that was one of the first
715
00:58:51.230 --> 00:58:54.610
clear, large scale Bitcoin sponsored attacks on Bitcoiners.
716
00:58:55.390 --> 00:58:58.770
And it was a situation where people tried to use Bitcoin against the state.
717
00:58:59.105 --> 00:59:07.125
So I think that was one of the first, like, really good adversarial tests outside of Silk Road and some D and M usage and darknet market usage over the years. But,
718
00:59:08.100 --> 00:59:17.214
that was an interesting piece and kinda why I was watching it and screaming on Twitter about them videotaping all of the truckers. But But it wasn't even a sophisticated state too. It's fucking Canada.
719
00:59:17.835 --> 00:59:18.335
But,
720
00:59:19.035 --> 00:59:23.454
look, I'm I'm gonna keep pushing back on you guys. I think that was a massive win. And,
721
00:59:24.099 --> 00:59:31.800
you know, I mentioned earlier that we are in this, like, new type of warfare. And, look, I'm literally, my mic is on a World War 2 book right now.
722
00:59:32.464 --> 00:59:37.425
Kind of state of the studio. If you look at if look. I need a plug mic, I guess.
723
00:59:37.744 --> 00:59:41.350
So if you look at, you know, war in general, right,
724
00:59:41.830 --> 00:59:43.850
World War 2, they they sent Shermans
725
00:59:44.710 --> 00:59:47.605
to the to the beaches of Normandy, but they sunk. Right?
726
00:59:48.165 --> 00:59:52.585
Back in World War 1 with the advent of the machine gun, they would just send cavalry
727
00:59:52.885 --> 00:59:55.065
into the machine guns, and they realize, okay,
728
00:59:56.430 --> 01:00:10.435
perhaps machine gun and horses doesn't work out very well. Let's do trenches. Right? And then they're like, okay, you know what? We need moving metal boxes, also known as tanks. The point that I'm trying to make is that if you see it from, like, a war standpoint,
729
01:00:11.375 --> 01:00:12.115
we won.
730
01:00:12.974 --> 01:00:14.115
Bitcoin itself
731
01:00:14.734 --> 01:00:15.795
did not fail.
732
01:00:16.250 --> 01:00:16.990
It worked.
733
01:00:17.609 --> 01:00:18.910
What failed was,
734
01:00:19.609 --> 01:00:20.750
okay, perhaps,
735
01:00:22.250 --> 01:00:25.630
we shouldn't send the horses straight into machine gun fire.
736
01:00:26.395 --> 01:00:30.815
Perhaps we should take a different approach. And what I mean by that
737
01:00:31.115 --> 01:00:33.375
is I guarantee you next time,
738
01:00:35.210 --> 01:00:36.750
it will be totally different.
739
01:00:37.130 --> 01:00:38.350
But now we know
740
01:00:39.050 --> 01:00:42.750
as the common, you know, the world knows that
741
01:00:43.325 --> 01:00:45.184
you can raise funds,
742
01:00:46.045 --> 01:00:47.265
circumvent the state
743
01:00:47.805 --> 01:00:49.424
if you really want to,
744
01:00:49.724 --> 01:00:53.810
and you better make sure you do it right. Because if you don't do it right,
745
01:00:54.670 --> 01:00:58.450
the Canadian Mounted Police is gonna show up at your house on horses
746
01:00:58.825 --> 01:01:07.245
in red suits. I mean, they were lucky they were Canadians. Right? Like, I was telling you this story about the Chinese activist who's, you know, her father just wanted
747
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:12.740
basic civil rights. And this is not even a Bitcoin story. She just wanted basic civil rights for the Uyghurs,
748
01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:17.460
and he ended up in jail. They haven't been able to communicate with him. Right? And
749
01:01:17.944 --> 01:01:24.444
and the the cousin get gets sent to jail because she has a photo of him on her phone, and they find it at a checkpoint. Right? So
750
01:01:25.190 --> 01:01:25.690
I
751
01:01:27.109 --> 01:01:29.690
the the the thing about the freedom convoy is
752
01:01:29.990 --> 01:01:32.170
there was some pain, but there wasn't much,
753
01:01:32.994 --> 01:01:35.175
which could be a very valuable learning
754
01:01:35.555 --> 01:01:36.615
experience without
755
01:01:37.234 --> 01:01:39.095
too much actual pain on people.
756
01:01:39.910 --> 01:01:40.809
But maybe it wasn't even
757
01:01:41.109 --> 01:01:46.730
enough pain. So people just feel like, okay. It was fine because, you know, no one's in a gulag right now.
758
01:01:47.895 --> 01:02:17.299
Yeah. That's what it feels like. Because I I don't know. I just I don't know how we can say that Bitcoin succeeded there. Like, yeah, it processed the transactions. It did better than GoFundMe. It it did better, but is that success? Well, I mean Like, better than GoFundMe in a state sponsored attack is a pretty low bar because GoFundMe is obviously gonna go with whatever the state tells them. So, like, yes, it was better in that they were able to collect funds in a censorship resistant way, which is that that was an immensely powerful use case. So that was a good showcase of what can be done.
759
01:02:18.245 --> 01:02:22.025
Obviously, all the ways funds were handled, everything was poor, but
760
01:02:22.645 --> 01:02:31.840
the as far as I know, none of the people who receive funds were able to actually use them to buy anything to fund what they were doing, anything like that, which I would consider as
761
01:02:32.220 --> 01:02:38.115
failure. I mean, yes. It was better, and some funds got into people's hands. But they're a little bit hypocritical there because, like, if
762
01:02:39.215 --> 01:02:40.355
if people did
763
01:02:40.735 --> 01:02:49.250
successfully use those funds and we don't know about it, then that would be a success, and we wouldn't know about it. Right? It would, but we would know about it because you can see what's happening on chain.
764
01:02:49.550 --> 01:02:50.130
The last
765
01:02:50.430 --> 01:03:05.710
report that I've seen on it, nobody had moved. Either people had not moved funds or they had been confiscated. Or they had sent There was no in between. Basically. Yeah. So if it has happened where people have actually used those funds effectively, then, yeah, I would consider that a success. And that's really the bar I'd say is, like, was the purpose
766
01:03:06.089 --> 01:03:06.910
of the fundraiser
767
01:03:07.450 --> 01:03:11.475
met, which is to get them funds that they could use to fund their protest? Well,
768
01:03:11.855 --> 01:03:17.395
again, like, I'm gonna use the war analogy. Right? What what did it prove? It proved that
769
01:03:17.970 --> 01:03:21.910
you could use an alternative monetary network to
770
01:03:22.210 --> 01:03:25.270
raise money. And it actually makes it very difficult
771
01:03:25.970 --> 01:03:27.029
for the state
772
01:03:27.734 --> 01:03:28.955
to see successfully,
773
01:03:29.575 --> 01:03:33.675
especially if you do it right. And I guarantee you that now
774
01:03:34.055 --> 01:03:36.474
that certain Canadians have burnt their fingers,
775
01:03:37.210 --> 01:03:38.190
if that happens
776
01:03:38.570 --> 01:03:42.590
somewhere around the world next time, I guarantee you Bitcoin Twitter will mobilize.
777
01:03:43.290 --> 01:03:44.545
Matt O'Dell will make
778
01:03:44.944 --> 01:03:47.204
will go live on Twitter and be like, guys,
779
01:03:48.224 --> 01:03:50.244
this is exactly what you're gonna do.
780
01:03:50.545 --> 01:03:55.200
Alright? This is Lucille dispatch 57. So we'll we'll, like, Twitter will mobilize
781
01:03:55.819 --> 01:03:57.039
and, you know,
782
01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:05.045
like, the dentists send No. But that's not the case. What happened was really what happened I mean so we've been talking about the actual people raising the money.
783
01:04:07.585 --> 01:04:11.040
Mhmm. Bitcoin Twitter was really disappointing during it. Bitcoin
784
01:04:11.580 --> 01:04:13.680
Twitter, as soon as the pressure turned up,
785
01:04:14.300 --> 01:04:21.385
everyone fucking disappeared. Forces into machine guns. Like, Seth Seth is, I think, a valuable person in the Bitcoin community. I think he might
786
01:04:21.924 --> 01:04:33.640
push back on that a little bit, but I think he's a very valuable person in the Bitcoin community. He was more outspoken than, like, prominent Bitcoin influencers. Right? They they just all were like, oh, shit. Like, this could be the moment we all get called terrorists.
787
01:04:34.045 --> 01:04:42.145
That was And, like, they come for us. Right? Excited. And I mean, you were very vocal. I remember you being very vocal. I was very vocal. There were people that were vocal,
788
01:04:42.605 --> 01:04:43.105
but
789
01:04:43.580 --> 01:04:46.320
the overwhelming majority of people gave me the opinion
790
01:04:47.100 --> 01:04:53.275
that if my back is against the wall, they're all just gonna let me go to the gulag. Because Like, that's what's gonna happen. They don't understand.
791
01:04:53.575 --> 01:05:00.875
They don't get it that there is nowhere else to go. Like, there is nowhere else to go. Like, you there is nowhere to escape. There is no,
792
01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:04.280
like, you stand your ground here,
793
01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:08.840
or you lose it. And what a lot of people, they have this false illusion,
794
01:05:09.285 --> 01:05:12.105
where it's like, you know what? I'm just gonna let this slide.
795
01:05:12.725 --> 01:05:13.225
And,
796
01:05:14.485 --> 01:05:23.050
you know, I'm just gonna I don't want my life to get complicated. I don't wanna get in trouble. Like, I don't wanna do this, whatever. But I think we're at a crossroads in history
797
01:05:23.750 --> 01:05:26.890
where the fiat system in general has grown these bureaucracies
798
01:05:27.270 --> 01:05:32.295
to such a size. I was actually reading Road to I wasn't reading. I was listening to it.
799
01:05:33.235 --> 01:05:34.135
Road to Serfdom.
800
01:05:34.995 --> 01:05:36.535
Are audiobooks of Shaquen?
801
01:05:37.630 --> 01:05:45.090
I like it. I like it, Matt. Not everyone's as hardcore. Well, thank you for clarifying that you were listening. I hate when people say they were reading something and they're just listening. I I buy
802
01:05:45.470 --> 01:05:49.575
I buy the physical books because I like to show them off on my shelf. Be like, I read that one.
803
01:05:50.035 --> 01:05:58.780
I really listened to it. It's kinda the same, but I I I agree. Reading has has more of a Sorry for distracting you. No. It's all good. It's a good comment. It's a good criticism.
804
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.859
I just have too much ADHD, but look, I was reading Road to Serfdom and Listening.
805
01:06:06.265 --> 01:06:12.525
Dude, these these bureaucracies and this collectivism has reached such a size that you could even in the US,
806
01:06:12.905 --> 01:06:17.050
where the the founding fathers, man, the way they designed the country
807
01:06:17.590 --> 01:06:22.010
was great, but you could tell the system is being pushed to
808
01:06:22.765 --> 01:06:23.424
its limits.
809
01:06:23.885 --> 01:06:38.530
Right? And this is not only happening in the US, it's happening in Canada, it's happening in Europe, and you have these giant bureaucracies that are trying to control people, man. So I think it reaches a point where you have to say enough is enough. And I think that
810
01:06:39.684 --> 01:06:42.425
in a way I'm privileged because I come from a country
811
01:06:43.444 --> 01:06:44.825
that I saw
812
01:06:45.684 --> 01:06:46.505
what happened.
813
01:06:46.870 --> 01:06:58.355
What the what collectivism did to the society. Venezuela went from one of the wealthiest countries on in South America to literally a failed state in 20 years.
814
01:06:58.895 --> 01:07:06.570
And these people have this false solution in the United States. It can't happen here. Oh, yes. It can happen here. And the way that it happens here
815
01:07:06.950 --> 01:07:08.810
is if you just shut up and say nothing.
816
01:07:09.190 --> 01:07:09.690
So
817
01:07:10.765 --> 01:07:15.665
that's why I was so vocal about it. And I think that if more people are vocal, and this doesn't mean
818
01:07:16.204 --> 01:07:22.890
like breaking the law or anything like you have to color without inside the lines. But if all you have to do is stand up and say something.
819
01:07:23.430 --> 01:07:26.410
In my opinion, that's enough because if enough people do that,
820
01:07:26.795 --> 01:07:28.895
I think we win. That's my opinion.
821
01:07:34.339 --> 01:07:35.160
Fuck. Yeah.
822
01:07:35.859 --> 01:07:36.359
Yeah.
823
01:07:38.180 --> 01:07:45.565
So it was a little silence. I don't know if I said something wrong. No. I mean, it was powerful. I just didn't know how to respond. So I just said, fuck. Yeah. I
824
01:07:47.405 --> 01:07:49.185
look. Once again, I just
825
01:07:52.200 --> 01:07:54.700
you know, we have the meme. I'm in it for the tech.
826
01:07:57.175 --> 01:08:11.780
For the revolution, baby. Yeah. I mean, I'm in it for the freedom. I would like to get wealthy in the process as well. Like, I'm not gonna pretend like But it's a secondary aspect, dude. Bitcoin is so awesome, man. Well, I mean, you can't ever You don't have to worry about it. You'll never be wealthy without freedom. So it's a prerequisite
827
01:08:12.160 --> 01:08:15.620
for for wealth, because otherwise, it's it's not your wealth.
828
01:08:17.705 --> 01:08:19.805
The the issue is not
829
01:08:22.185 --> 01:08:25.869
I I I pretty much have faith that we will get there eventually.
830
01:08:27.449 --> 01:08:28.429
That, you know,
831
01:08:28.969 --> 01:08:30.349
the concepts are there.
832
01:08:31.715 --> 01:08:39.255
You know, the tech is possible. We're seeing it all unfold in front of our eyes. You know, the cat's out of the bag, the proverbial cat's out of the bag.
833
01:08:41.070 --> 01:08:47.730
Governments can't help themselves, powerful people can't help themselves. They're gonna keep oppressing people, and people will just naturally push back when they find the need.
834
01:08:48.349 --> 01:08:52.815
The fear to me, and the reason I'm so vocal about these topics
835
01:08:53.514 --> 01:08:55.454
is the pain that happens in between.
836
01:08:55.994 --> 01:08:59.900
And I can see how palpable that pain can be and how brutal it
837
01:09:01.100 --> 01:09:01.760
can be. And
838
01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:06.480
there's an opportunity here to lessen that pain
839
01:09:06.860 --> 01:09:13.204
during that transitionary period. So, like, a perfect example I just keep bringing up examples. A perfect example is I talked to Navalny's team,
840
01:09:15.264 --> 01:09:15.744
opposition
841
01:09:16.065 --> 01:09:17.445
main opposition to Putin,
842
01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:21.600
last year at the HRF event, and they've been raising Bitcoin donations
843
01:09:22.060 --> 01:09:23.200
for for a long time.
844
01:09:23.740 --> 01:09:30.785
They use a static reused address. And I was like, I was like, you have me here with you. Like, can I please just walk you through,
845
01:09:31.325 --> 01:09:45.305
like, just improving this? I'm not like, I don't want you you don't need to be full cypher punk. Like, can we just improve the situation a little bit? And she said to me, kind of echoing what you said about the Canadian Freedom Convoy is, they can stop us on GoFundMe. They can stop us on bank transfers.
846
01:09:45.685 --> 01:09:53.850
This Bitcoin keeps coming through. We don't care that Putin knows how much Bitcoin we have. He can't take it from us. We're outside of the country except for Navalny, who's in jail,
847
01:09:54.230 --> 01:10:00.490
but his whole operation is outside the country now, and or at least the public's facing parts of the the operation.
848
01:10:01.235 --> 01:10:01.675
And,
849
01:10:02.115 --> 01:10:26.295
they can spend it at will. And they and and another aspect was they're like, we know Putin has the capabilities of spying on us from all these other things, which is something I talked about with Seth on on his pod, which is the meme the real meme that stops people from seeking out better privacy is not, oh, I have nothing to hide, so why should I care? It's really, I'm so fucked that there's no improvement that could be made. So they gave me that argument, basically. Right?
850
01:10:26.869 --> 01:10:28.409
And that it worked anyway.
851
01:10:30.389 --> 01:10:37.005
About 4 months ago, 5 months ago, it came out that Binance handed over all the KYC information of all the donors
852
01:10:37.625 --> 01:10:40.364
that donated to that reused address. Right?
853
01:10:41.545 --> 01:10:49.320
That's a shit ton of pain that has gone to all anyone who contributed there from inside Russia who has family inside Russia is completely fucked right now.
854
01:10:50.260 --> 01:11:02.349
And so, like, did Bitcoin succeed in that scenario? Like, Navalny has a Bitcoin. Navalny is able to spend the Bitcoin. He wasn't able to do that through any other financial means. But, like, if a bunch of his supporters and their families are all
855
01:11:03.290 --> 01:11:06.429
being subjugated as a result of that usage of Bitcoin,
856
01:11:06.825 --> 01:11:09.325
was that a success? Yes. Because this is war.
857
01:11:10.345 --> 01:11:14.940
You have to take it. But you still won't go into war with no armor on. Right? You don't, like, go to like, you don't
858
01:11:15.420 --> 01:11:17.040
you you should still not, like,
859
01:11:17.739 --> 01:11:35.630
run your cavalry into a machine gun But for your metaphor. But but, Matt, like, we are, like, again, like, we're, like, in this weird place where I wouldn't say weird because it's not weird from our perspective. We we love Bitcoin. We're obsessed with it. We've based our careers around it. So, obviously, we're knowledgeable on how to fully
860
01:11:36.330 --> 01:11:38.750
use the tools that Bitcoin gives us
861
01:11:39.305 --> 01:11:42.205
in order to avoid those situations, but
862
01:11:42.665 --> 01:11:46.285
the world still hasn't found that out yet. And that's what happened
863
01:11:46.665 --> 01:11:58.155
with the Freedom Convoy. That's what happened with the example with Russia that you're giving me. And I'm gonna kind of circle back to what you said earlier on the show about burning your finger on the stove.
864
01:11:58.535 --> 01:12:01.355
And that's why I use the analogy of the war. Sometimes
865
01:12:02.375 --> 01:12:03.515
in war, unfortunately,
866
01:12:04.280 --> 01:12:15.804
whole battalions get slaughtered. And then the next time the commander's like, okay. Maybe I shouldn't send the horses to the machine guns. Maybe we should build a trench instead. If we could reduce the slaughter Yeah. Wouldn't that be ideal?
867
01:12:16.105 --> 01:12:22.490
Yeah. Horses suck. Let's do tanks. You know, tanks are better. But not land them at d day and have them sink. Yeah. No. That would suck.
868
01:12:22.970 --> 01:12:29.630
That that's a terrible idea. I don't know. I hope these analogies are useful. I like it now. I'll piggyback off that analogy. I mean, I think
869
01:12:30.125 --> 01:12:37.665
I think we see a lot of the same problems that have been seen in Warren. I mean, reading through the books that your mic is sitting on, a lot of the problems are
870
01:12:38.080 --> 01:12:40.179
the issues with approaches were known,
871
01:12:40.560 --> 01:13:02.920
and then something bad happens. And the the ways to resolve that or ways to prevent that are forgotten, and it just keeps rehappening over and over again. This is true. And I I think that's a good way to look at what has happened in Bitcoin and that we have known about these problems, like the the Navalny thing. Everyone's known you're not supposed to reuse addresses. It's been, like, a decade that we've known that. The whole Ethereum ecosystem uses addresses.
872
01:13:03.380 --> 01:13:14.094
Well, because they don't have addresses per se. They have an account based model rather than UTXO. So they they have more technical reason to reuse addresses because their system is built to reuse addresses. Horribly.
873
01:13:23.875 --> 01:13:28.695
The problem is, and this comes back to what you're saying earlier too, the incentives are not aligned
874
01:13:29.155 --> 01:13:30.695
with privacy within Bitcoin.
875
01:13:31.200 --> 01:13:36.740
The incentives, like, with the the Navalny thing, they can get the bare minimum. They can get donations that are not easily seized
876
01:13:37.120 --> 01:13:48.115
with just posting a static Bitcoin address. It works. They get them. They don't care. But then you have all of the other problems that come with everyone knows how much Bitcoin you've received. Everyone knows how to easily watch what you do with that Bitcoin.
877
01:13:48.790 --> 01:13:49.270
Dusting,
878
01:13:49.750 --> 01:13:51.449
dusting attacks are very simple.
879
01:13:52.150 --> 01:14:08.809
Binance turning over all the KYC users, because you know if someone sent money to that address, it was to Navalny and his people. It one of my favorite things about that story, by the way, is when I tell people that story, they get outraged, but they're, like, completely cool with Binance handing all that KYC information to the US government.
880
01:14:09.429 --> 01:14:12.710
Yeah. I mean, just like I think many people were totally fine with all the KYC exchanges.
881
01:14:13.190 --> 01:14:18.235
You're you that that that doesn't it's what, sorry to cut you off. No. No. You're good.
882
01:14:19.175 --> 01:14:21.035
Remember what the Kraken CEO
883
01:14:21.415 --> 01:14:28.270
and Brian Brian Armstrong kinda dipped his toes a little bit, but Jesse Powell that's his name. Right? Mhmm. Jesse Powell. Yes.
884
01:14:28.650 --> 01:14:30.305
I get confused because I'm like Jerome
885
01:14:31.185 --> 01:14:32.405
Powell. Coincidence. Okay.
886
01:14:33.185 --> 01:14:35.365
Powell. I know. Right. I'm like, is that the right last name?
887
01:14:36.785 --> 01:14:37.285
So
888
01:14:37.960 --> 01:15:01.610
he said it right. He said it. He's like, Listen, guys, I we can't help you. Because I don't use Kraken if you're doing it. It's like, take take self custody. And then you see the the reaction by the real I'm gonna keep saying it because it's funny. Real Canadian mounted police. Yeah. The mounties. Like, we disguise a problem. You know? And all he said, which is crazy to me, which is crazy. I mean, Brian Armstrong could go fuck himself, but Brian actually did as well to a degree.
889
01:15:02.865 --> 01:15:25.225
He I mean, and they they also did Jesse was, like Yeah. He was probably selling surveillance software to the Mounties while he was saying that tweet. Right? I mean, they also did their own chain analysis to hand over even more names than they than anyone else had for, like, the Russians. The Russians. They went above and beyond, and we're happy to build special tools for that well, which no matter what you think of the political angle, that should show you the danger of k y z. That was an awesome post because
890
01:15:26.085 --> 01:15:30.640
usually these regulated exchanges are their lawyers prevent them from saying things.
891
01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:35.120
But with the Russian thing, they they were really scared that
892
01:15:35.465 --> 01:15:38.285
that their business was gonna get taken down. So they gave,
893
01:15:38.665 --> 01:15:52.500
like, the the Canadian the Coinbase post about the the Russian sanctions, they said, like, everything they do. They went down all the draconian paths of, like, how they control people and surveil people. That was a real I thought that was gonna be another big eye opener, but that's just
894
01:15:53.185 --> 01:16:04.150
memory hold as well. Yeah. It's unfortunate. People forget pretty quickly. And if and I think that circles back to, like, what I've been on today and what I constantly harp on is, like, if things don't lead to changes in
895
01:16:04.770 --> 01:16:13.965
the incentive structure for Bitcoin, and not obviously, like, mining that kind I'm not talking that type incentive structure. But with the use of Bitcoin privately generally being disincentivized,
896
01:16:14.265 --> 01:16:16.525
it's gonna cost you time. It's gonna cost you fees.
897
01:16:16.860 --> 01:16:17.520
It's difficult.
898
01:16:18.060 --> 01:16:29.835
That's obviously not to say it's not worth it. It is necessary if you want to use Bitcoin and you want the most freedom you can gain from it. But the incentives are for the opposite. And if we don't use these examples to say,
899
01:16:30.135 --> 01:16:31.035
look at the way
900
01:16:31.495 --> 01:16:41.640
that Bitcoin as a tool was not as successful as it should have been. Maybe we don't say it failed. I don't know we can say it succeeded, but at least was not as successful as it could have or should have been.
901
01:16:42.005 --> 01:16:45.385
We need to figure out how do we leverage that before people forget
902
01:16:45.764 --> 01:17:00.525
into doing the things that we need to do. And I I think, like, obviously, hard fork in Bitcoin, something like that, that's not gonna happen, to be completely honest. But Well, there has to be at least 1 hard fork. Well, yeah, eventually. Maybe we'll do all of the privacy changes in 21 40 or whenever that is.
903
01:17:01.545 --> 01:17:03.885
But in the meantime, we can do things like incentivize
904
01:17:04.425 --> 01:17:17.275
wallets to start in including paying in bit 47 support. We can start to incentivize more wallets to include things like Whirlpool, ways to easily mix funds. We can actually fund the people who are creating tools that are proven to work
905
01:17:17.735 --> 01:17:18.795
for Bitcoin privacy.
906
01:17:19.335 --> 01:17:30.070
We can start to do the other optional things that least will improve the lives of those who wake up in some way. I was talking to the Bitrefill guys. What's the number one wallet that's used to spend Bitcoin at Bitrefill?
907
01:17:33.175 --> 01:17:34.715
Legacy? What? Legacy?
908
01:17:35.175 --> 01:17:37.515
Like, number 1 Bitcoin wallet that's used.
909
01:17:39.530 --> 01:17:43.150
I have no idea. Maybe it's Trust Wallet by Binance. Are you serious?
910
01:17:43.770 --> 01:17:48.365
Reused address. Address type. Complete reused address. They don't even do a new.
911
01:17:49.085 --> 01:17:50.705
I think number 2 is blockchain.info.
912
01:17:51.885 --> 01:17:54.545
By the way, freaks, no one uses these wallets that I'm listing.
913
01:17:55.380 --> 01:17:56.760
So it's like the the shameless.
914
01:17:57.060 --> 01:18:06.175
That's what I want. Oh, and then, oh, maybe I got the order wrong. Maybe it was maybe Exodus was number 1 closed source wallet. I'm sure Exodus is closed. And then
915
01:18:06.795 --> 01:18:24.215
number 2 was trust. And number 3 was blockchain. Info. But anyway, those were the top 3. I'm positive of that. I think I mentioned But did you see the disconnect of Bitcoin Twitter? Like, Bitcoin Twitter would never recommend any of those wallets. Well, that's what I think I mentioned it earlier about the the this is the part that worried to me is that the custodial aspect of Bitcoin
916
01:18:24.675 --> 01:18:27.015
is such a big leap for most people
917
01:18:27.690 --> 01:18:30.190
that they just wanna use the easiest solution,
918
01:18:30.810 --> 01:18:35.310
but they don't understand the trade offs. Like, they have no idea that if you pick
919
01:18:36.855 --> 01:18:39.195
a good Bitcoin wallet, right,
920
01:18:40.295 --> 01:18:43.515
the amount of sovereignty that that would give you versus
921
01:18:44.190 --> 01:18:49.890
these wallets is day and night, and they don't understand that. Because to them, they're just looking at UI, and they're like, this UI
922
01:18:50.510 --> 01:18:55.525
looks better than that one. So to kind of go back to your point, maybe it's a question of making
923
01:18:55.985 --> 01:18:57.045
the more Bitcoin
924
01:18:57.744 --> 01:19:01.710
privacy centric wallets, the UI is better, so that the normies
925
01:19:02.650 --> 01:19:04.270
like that using Better.
926
01:19:04.810 --> 01:19:13.764
Instead of using the horse wallets, they could use the tank wallets. Well, I think, like, look. Everything has trade offs. Right? Everything in life has trade offs. And when you when you wanna talk about someone
927
01:19:14.144 --> 01:19:16.660
being ethical or unethical in the space, I think it's
928
01:19:17.060 --> 01:19:25.400
a a good a good barometer of that is, do they disclose trade offs when Mhmm. They're aware of trade offs? It's one thing if you're ignorant.
929
01:19:26.215 --> 01:19:30.554
That's probably not great if you're trying to educate people and you're ignorant about stuff, but at least,
930
01:19:32.534 --> 01:19:37.320
disclose trade offs when you're aware of trade offs. And I think one of the disconnects in the Bitcoin space,
931
01:19:38.100 --> 01:19:41.320
and it has gotten better, is that you have, like, hardcore wallets
932
01:19:42.265 --> 01:19:46.364
that are very featureful that, you know, the enthusiast crowd use.
933
01:19:47.465 --> 01:19:49.574
And then you have, you know,
934
01:19:50.340 --> 01:19:59.560
super mainstream wallets that are shield to kingdom come and have huge marketing budgets that are horrible wallets, and that's what the majority of people use. Mhmm. And, really,
935
01:20:00.485 --> 01:20:07.945
the thing that would push the needle the most in terms of the most users having a more sovereign experience is a trade off balance in between
936
01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:12.550
that are, you know, maybe not as convenient as the mainstream wallets
937
01:20:13.570 --> 01:20:14.949
and, you know, not as
938
01:20:15.329 --> 01:20:21.785
sovereignty focused as the the hardcore wallets, but a trade off balance in between where they have a decent UX.
939
01:20:22.805 --> 01:20:26.355
They're accessible, but they're also taking the majority of privacy best practices into account by default.
940
01:20:30.930 --> 01:20:33.190
And I'm hoping like, I think we are seeing
941
01:20:33.890 --> 01:20:45.920
more go that way. I mean, that is the samurai approach to a degree. It probably leans a little bit more to the hardcore side. Mhmm. But if you look at the shit that samurai gets, it's mostly based on the trade off they made to try and make it more accessible,
942
01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:50.179
which is that you can use it without your own node on a mobile phone. Yeah.
943
01:20:51.280 --> 01:20:52.900
So that was a that was
944
01:20:53.335 --> 01:21:02.315
a noticeable decision that they made, though. Right? Which was, like, how many more people can actually use this tool if they can just boot it on their mobile phone and have no idea what a fucking note is?
945
01:21:04.040 --> 01:21:06.780
They get skewered on Bitcoin Twitter for that. Right?
946
01:21:07.160 --> 01:21:11.500
And they also, you know, attack people all the time. Can get very aggressive.
947
01:21:12.355 --> 01:21:17.495
But, they're mostly skewered for that technical choice that they made. Yep.
948
01:21:19.235 --> 01:21:21.480
Yeah. I think I mean, I think a middle ground is
949
01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:27.480
would be nice, but it's difficult because a lot of the things you need to do for privacy on Bitcoin are just not
950
01:21:28.895 --> 01:21:31.795
they're not simple, and a lot of them need interaction.
951
01:21:32.095 --> 01:21:36.755
So it's very difficult to find a middle ground that is privacy reserving beyond just the simple,
952
01:21:37.610 --> 01:21:38.990
like, not reusing addresses,
953
01:21:39.690 --> 01:21:45.070
making sure that your change outputs match the script type of the address you're sending to,
954
01:21:45.530 --> 01:21:48.375
these simple things that can break some of the common heuristics.
955
01:21:49.235 --> 01:21:56.910
Implementing those things is definitely a necessity, but it's hard to get a very simple UX that also preserves privacy on chain and Bitcoin.
956
01:21:57.530 --> 01:21:59.150
Why does it have to be on chain?
957
01:22:01.130 --> 01:22:03.870
Because Lightning's not really ready yet? I mean,
958
01:22:04.554 --> 01:22:15.380
in theory, something off chain could be the solution. I mean, maybe you're trying to shield Fediment. I'm not sure. Oh, you read my mind, Seth. How did you know if Seth brought it up, not me?
959
01:22:15.760 --> 01:22:20.180
Matt was just writing FEDIMENT and huge buttons behind him on the whiteboard. Got a whiteboard.
960
01:22:21.895 --> 01:22:41.815
No. I I think Federman could be that trade off balance that I was base I I was setting up Federman. Yeah. The the hard part is you give up custody. So it's a very You don't give up it's not a single custodian. No. But you give up custody. You're just saying I wanna give up custody to a It's a multi party. It's like a multi party customer. Yeah. Right? So it's better than, like,
961
01:22:42.434 --> 01:22:48.350
using Binance Wallet, and they can like, Wallet of Satoshi or something, which is a fully custodial Lightning Wallet. And I I
962
01:22:48.969 --> 01:22:55.150
yeah. I don't know. It's it's hard for me to walk down that path because I feel like one of the things that is nonnegotiable for me is custody.
963
01:22:55.685 --> 01:22:56.185
But
964
01:22:57.204 --> 01:22:57.704
the
965
01:22:58.244 --> 01:23:17.355
trade off that you would get in something like Fediment with Mini Mints is you could use people that you have some reason to trust, whether that's Bitcoin Twitter plebs or someone you know by name. Community members or something. A community member maybe in your local town. Maybe it's people in a meetup that you go to that you work together. Like, there are some interesting ways that you could have
966
01:23:17.895 --> 01:23:24.875
yes. You give up custody. You no longer self custody, but the people who have custody are at least not a nameless corporation that's benefiting off of you.
967
01:23:25.560 --> 01:23:33.020
So, I mean, like, Obi, who's one of the leads at Federman Mhmm. That's what he believes is gonna happen. He believes there's gonna be a bunch of
968
01:23:33.594 --> 01:23:40.415
small community Fedimint wallets that are all interoperable with each other because they support lightning and on chain.
969
01:23:42.700 --> 01:23:43.440
But within
970
01:23:43.980 --> 01:23:56.864
but they all are providing privacy to each other, and they're all handling that. See, the thing is, so custody is a nonstarter for you. Right? But what Nico was saying earlier is, like, one of the main trade offs is people taking custody. So
971
01:23:57.885 --> 01:24:09.200
to me, it's almost a feature, not a bug of that, like they like people could still use the hardcore wallet they wanted to, and they can go the full sovereign route. You know, they can learn how to use coin join, they can learn how to do collaborative
972
01:24:09.745 --> 01:24:25.070
transactions, use lightning with a full node, and get rid of their lightning node after they use a little bit and refresh and go through all the fucking different trade offs. The cool part about Bitcoin is that it is this protocol and this open monetary network that people can choose how they wanna use it. Now
973
01:24:25.530 --> 01:24:26.030
Fedimans
974
01:24:26.410 --> 01:24:27.469
could kind of
975
01:24:28.135 --> 01:24:32.155
be that nice stepping ground for people that are not comfortable with custody because
976
01:24:32.935 --> 01:24:36.395
instead of trusting regulated exchange, you're trusting, you know,
977
01:24:36.980 --> 01:24:45.455
15 community members and, like, a plurality of them need to steal your money or doss you. And, basically, you're you're relying on them for uptime as well,
978
01:24:45.935 --> 01:24:49.635
not just stealing your money, like you need them to make sure the system is running.
979
01:24:51.055 --> 01:24:56.490
So your funds can basically be effectively frozen because you just can't spend them because they they're not online.
980
01:24:58.150 --> 01:25:02.250
But and the result is you get very strong privacy guarantees.
981
01:25:03.030 --> 01:25:04.970
And then you get lower fees,
982
01:25:05.545 --> 01:25:07.085
and better user experience
983
01:25:08.825 --> 01:25:13.805
and potentially easier onboarding than than definitely easier onboarding than self custody.
984
01:25:15.159 --> 01:25:16.540
So it could be,
985
01:25:18.840 --> 01:25:21.420
you know, it it it could be a massive improvement
986
01:25:21.935 --> 01:25:25.635
for the average person using Bitcoin. And if you think about it from,
987
01:25:26.335 --> 01:25:28.195
the Canadian trucker point of view,
988
01:25:30.030 --> 01:25:32.930
Canadian truckers are using a Federman wallet.
989
01:25:33.470 --> 01:25:34.930
And now here's the key.
990
01:25:36.565 --> 01:25:42.025
I think the biggest pain point of I mean, the privacy stuff really was very frustrating.
991
01:25:42.405 --> 01:25:45.385
The biggest pain point of the Canadian truckers to me was that
992
01:25:46.320 --> 01:26:09.780
Bitcoin enables us to be in a situation where you don't have to have a centralized fundraiser. Like, you like, GoFundMe relies on you to have your GoFundMe captain of a freedom convoy that raises all the money and then deploys it. Mhmm. But with Bitcoin, really, the ideal situation should have been that all those truckers were choosing because a lot of them were streaming anyway. They were on Instagram Live and Twitter Live, and they were streaming their faces. While they were doing that, they should have been able to say,
993
01:26:10.235 --> 01:26:15.934
and you can send me money to my wallet here. Now, with a Fedimint that opens up that possibility.
994
01:26:16.635 --> 01:26:18.335
And the question is, okay,
995
01:26:19.510 --> 01:26:22.490
is, you know, is that as state resistant as something like,
996
01:26:23.430 --> 01:26:32.574
you know, Bitcoin as a protocol? No, of course not. But it might be state resistant enough if everyone if anyone anywhere in the world, including NIMs, can
997
01:26:33.035 --> 01:26:35.055
launch these federated mints,
998
01:26:36.030 --> 01:26:37.010
then maybe it's
999
01:26:37.390 --> 01:26:40.610
decentralized enough. Maybe it's censorship resistant enough.
1000
01:26:42.190 --> 01:26:50.645
That's yet to be seen. There's no working product out yet. You know, I don't really like talking about things in theory, but it is they seem very close,
1001
01:26:51.025 --> 01:27:01.114
and they have a good team working on it. So I'm I'm pretty excited about it. But that's the kind of my point is that's the kind of project that I wanna see more of that kind of stuff where it's it's practical
1002
01:27:01.655 --> 01:27:03.675
benefits for average users
1003
01:27:05.014 --> 01:27:13.730
that aren't don't rely on any protocol changes or anything. It's like, okay, these are the tools we have available for us now. People are gonna use the worst tools if you don't provide better tools.
1004
01:27:14.270 --> 01:27:14.770
And,
1005
01:27:15.230 --> 01:27:17.810
you know, it can improve things today.
1006
01:27:18.175 --> 01:27:22.275
Is it gonna be perfect? No. But it can improve things today. So I I personally think
1007
01:27:23.375 --> 01:27:27.715
I personally hope that a year from now, the conversation becomes very different,
1008
01:27:28.870 --> 01:27:29.690
just because
1009
01:27:30.790 --> 01:27:39.515
the Fedimin project exists, and the Fedimin wallets will be out in the wild. Yeah. My my, I think, optimistic view for that is that it turns into an onboarding tool,
1010
01:27:40.215 --> 01:27:52.790
a tool for spending. Even if you can self custody and you can do all these things, it it will probably be a lot easier to use something like pediment where you use it as, like, a checking account. Like, you don't put your life savings in there because you are giving up custody, and you should not do that lightly.
1011
01:27:53.365 --> 01:27:53.865
But
1012
01:27:54.405 --> 01:28:11.449
if, obviously, all these things come to fruition, you can use it as a checking account. You you peg in or whatever it would be called to to get in to Fedimint, and then you use those funds to spend, and you just top up when you need to. But, also, obviously, the onboarding tool where you bring people in, and then you teach them about self custody, and it can be a better on ramp
1013
01:28:12.455 --> 01:28:19.995
with people who you trust. And I think a lot of it may have a lot of similarities in kind of how the the privacy tool ecosystem works, where a lot of companies
1014
01:28:20.590 --> 01:28:22.290
bootstrap or exist in
1015
01:28:22.910 --> 01:28:27.570
good jurisdictions that are friendly towards privacy, that have good data laws, that won't be oppressive.
1016
01:28:27.875 --> 01:28:32.935
And we may have to say something similar with something like Fedimint because, I mean, the a big concern for me is still
1017
01:28:33.635 --> 01:28:38.070
there are now less people in control of more funds, and so there's easier pressure points for governments.
1018
01:28:38.449 --> 01:28:39.489
The other thing, though,
1019
01:28:41.170 --> 01:28:43.590
I've just been obsessed with FedRAMP. And I've, like,
1020
01:28:44.515 --> 01:28:46.855
I mean, I had the fortune of of
1021
01:28:47.475 --> 01:28:49.075
I was in I was in,
1022
01:28:50.515 --> 01:28:56.050
rural Norway, like, all the way above, like, in the Arctic Circle with Obi for 3 days, and
1023
01:28:56.590 --> 01:29:06.764
I I just wouldn't let him not talk about it because that's all I could talk about. But one of the interesting trade offs that they chose to make is that the federation doesn't choose who the lightning providers are. So anyone it's actually
1024
01:29:07.144 --> 01:29:08.284
technically a permissionless
1025
01:29:09.240 --> 01:29:10.780
way of of being LSPs.
1026
01:29:11.400 --> 01:29:14.220
So, like, you could imagine, like, a Fedimint wallet where,
1027
01:29:14.600 --> 01:29:20.165
okay, you have 13 of 15 or 10 of 10 of 14 or something in the federation,
1028
01:29:20.705 --> 01:29:23.925
but then you have 4 different Lightning providers for that whole wallet.
1029
01:29:24.625 --> 01:29:25.685
And, basically,
1030
01:29:26.540 --> 01:29:32.000
the Lightning provider, the person running that node and collecting the fees and running it as a Lightning service provider,
1031
01:29:33.340 --> 01:29:41.875
they're they're trusting the federation to a degree because they're choosing to accept the mint tokens. Mhmm. Right? They're accepting the IOU shit coin.
1032
01:29:42.200 --> 01:29:45.740
Yeah. That is running in there that is technically pegged to Bitcoin.
1033
01:29:46.280 --> 01:29:47.260
But the
1034
01:29:47.720 --> 01:29:48.220
the
1035
01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:49.500
participants
1036
01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:51.100
in the actual Fediment
1037
01:29:51.695 --> 01:29:53.395
aren't trusting the Lightning node.
1038
01:29:54.335 --> 01:30:00.755
And that was an active decision they made because that is a clear pressure point, right, which is you get all these funds in a Fediment wallet
1039
01:30:01.060 --> 01:30:02.600
who's running the Lightning node.
1040
01:30:03.699 --> 01:30:10.360
So it doesn't have to be a federation member? No. You don't even they don't even necessarily have to know who's running the Lightning node. Interesting.
1041
01:30:10.739 --> 01:30:13.224
It just has to be someone who's willing to take
1042
01:30:14.724 --> 01:30:28.460
trust that they can take the tokens and convert them back to Bitcoin eventually. But then that Lightning service provider would have to have their own Bitcoin to match the liquidity Correct. That the Fed amount that Mini Mint, I guess, would actually need. Yep. So you'd need people with a lot of Bitcoin,
1043
01:30:29.034 --> 01:30:44.000
but that's very interesting. I I just assumed it would be the Bitcoin that was custody that would be used in the Lightning node, but I guess not if the Lightning service provider can be something The Lightning my understanding is the Lightning service provider can do redemption transactions on chain for the mint tokens to Bitcoin. Mhmm.
1044
01:30:44.315 --> 01:30:48.335
But, yes, they need they need original liquidity when they first come in and start providing.
1045
01:30:48.635 --> 01:30:52.495
Fascinating. Let let's talk a little bit about the unintended consequences
1046
01:30:52.850 --> 01:30:53.590
of this.
1047
01:30:55.570 --> 01:30:57.830
Wouldn't you say this would still be normalizing
1048
01:30:58.210 --> 01:31:05.864
something that isn't self custody? Yeah. But, I mean, also, like, hardcore Bitcoiners, like, go to El Salvador and pay with Walla de Satoshi, so I'm, like, kind of done with that conversation.
1049
01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:17.340
Like, you can let you can let the perfect be the enemy of good, at least for, like, short term stuff. Look. At the end of the day, the trade offs need to be made clear.
1050
01:31:17.865 --> 01:31:25.805
Right? Just like Seth said, like, you're giving up custody. You are there. This is a trust minimized system. It's not a trustless system. Right?
1051
01:31:26.850 --> 01:31:30.550
But it's very practical. It's it's it's a cool practical tool.
1052
01:31:30.930 --> 01:31:48.490
I like the practical shit that like you can use sooner rather than later that actually bring tangible benefits to people. How how could it fail? Like, how could you because I'm I'm really not I'll be honest. I'm really not familiar with this solution. How what I mean, no one really is. What are the downgrades? Like, I'm sorry. What are the what are the trade offs? Like,
1053
01:31:49.750 --> 01:32:04.750
what if those 15 people aren't available? Yeah. I mean, that's a major trade off. Then all this Just like if all of Satoshi back end go down goes down or Oh, yeah. Or like Well, at lnd hub I think, like, liquid is probably a good example there. Like, liquid's gone down in the past. How many of those 15 people do you need?
1054
01:32:05.105 --> 01:32:11.525
Well, so, like, it doesn't have I just keep using the term 15. Like, OB thinks, like, small communities will be, like, a 3 or 5
1055
01:32:12.280 --> 01:32:18.540
or something like that. Multi sig. It's essentially a multi sig. The way you can conceptualize it is that it's a multi sig custody.
1056
01:32:19.320 --> 01:32:20.380
Those 5 people
1057
01:32:20.795 --> 01:32:23.055
always online, always willing to sign.
1058
01:32:23.435 --> 01:32:46.435
Is that type of the model? The the threshold needs to be online or whatever. So the threshold that can steal is the same threshold that can Is there, like, a verification process? Like, is it That that's part of the beauty of it is anyone can start a mini mint. So it it What? Sorry. I think Mini Mint is, like, the concept of this the actual that's the software's name itself and what the idea of the
1059
01:32:46.790 --> 01:32:48.409
smaller federation is.
1060
01:32:48.710 --> 01:33:05.455
So, like, you and I and Matt could just start at 2 of 3. I don't know if you wanna do a 2 of 3, but we could start at 2 of 3 Minu Mint, and we could have our own. And no one needs to know that it's even us if we didn't want to, but we probably wanted to want people to know it's us so they trust us. I think you'll have, like, big public ones,
1061
01:33:05.950 --> 01:33:16.875
and then you'll have smaller ones that are run by NIMS or community members and stuff like that, and they're all interoperable with each other. But what what's the point of big public ones? Isn't that doesn't that
1062
01:33:17.255 --> 01:33:27.430
end you right where you started? It it's it's certainly No. Because you have privacy from the custodian. So so, I mean, a good example here, it just doesn't work that well as an example because of,
1063
01:33:28.050 --> 01:33:34.625
just most people aren't aware that how it even works. But, like, the Bitcoin Beach wallet, Galloy's wallet Mhmm.
1064
01:33:35.804 --> 01:33:36.304
Is
1065
01:33:36.684 --> 01:33:39.744
most funds are held on chain. That's a community multisig,
1066
01:33:40.210 --> 01:33:42.630
and then they have a lightning node that they run.
1067
01:33:43.090 --> 01:33:46.070
And so the whole is a custodial wallet, but it's
1068
01:33:46.690 --> 01:33:48.790
trust minimized to a degree because
1069
01:33:49.295 --> 01:33:53.635
the majority of funds are held in a multisig, so not a single entity can go and take the funds.
1070
01:33:53.935 --> 01:33:54.435
Now
1071
01:33:55.375 --> 01:34:00.739
the result is a wallet that was extremely easy to use for, you know, tech illiterate Salvadorans.
1072
01:34:02.400 --> 01:34:19.190
And it's been very successful in least terms of adoption. No one's gotten rug pulled yet. Obviously, they could get rug pulled at any time. But the big thing missing there is privacy. Like, the those custodians see every transaction and every balance you make, every balance you have and every transaction you make. With this setup,
1073
01:34:20.210 --> 01:34:25.190
you have privacy from the custodians, and that's more important than just trusting the custodians. I mean, the custodians
1074
01:34:25.895 --> 01:34:32.475
are obviously an easy pain point that, you know, a government can come in and be like, okay. Give us the roles of everyone's transactions.
1075
01:34:33.680 --> 01:35:00.975
But they couldn't even one of the beautiful things about using Show Me and Ecash as, like, the core of the system is they couldn't turn over any transactional details about you. And they can't know even you make a Lightning transaction or receive, they can't know who, within the users of the Mini Mint, that's actually destined to or from. So that is one of the great things is, like, if the government's knocking, yes, the government could confiscate funds. So that is a problem, and that's what people should be aware of. But I can't give over
1076
01:35:01.675 --> 01:35:14.385
the information about what you've done, who's transaction with who, that kind of thing. So that is the part could be even more important sometimes than the funds, depending on people's start models. Yeah. Especially if you're using it as, like, a checking account where it's like, yeah. I lost $500,
1077
01:35:14.844 --> 01:35:19.585
but they'd know nothing about the transactions I made. They don't know that I donated to Navalny or whatever,
1078
01:35:20.045 --> 01:35:21.264
which is a very important
1079
01:35:21.969 --> 01:35:22.630
piece of
1080
01:35:23.650 --> 01:35:24.150
it.
1081
01:35:25.170 --> 01:35:26.550
Yeah. So it's
1082
01:35:27.170 --> 01:35:37.565
it's not a tank. It's not a horse. It's like an armored car. I love your analogies. It's an armored car, bro. Make sure you go listen to simply Bitcoin if you if you like if you love Niko's analogies.
1083
01:35:39.190 --> 01:35:50.495
What do you what do you think is an armored car? Why is it an armored car? Because it's, you know, like, look You trust driver? No. No. But, like, think about the machine gun thing. Right? The armored car could only take so many bullets. Right?
1084
01:35:50.875 --> 01:35:54.175
And, you know, the windows are gonna get, you know, kind of
1085
01:35:55.675 --> 01:36:05.210
messed up a little bit. The horse is gonna die, and the tank's not gonna care. So it's an in between. That's why I think it's an armored car. I would say maybe it's like
1086
01:36:06.465 --> 01:36:09.045
like a Toyota Camry with tinted windows.
1087
01:36:10.704 --> 01:36:11.764
Like so so
1088
01:36:12.065 --> 01:36:15.890
let me explain my analogy. Obviously, I'm not the analogy guy here.
1089
01:36:18.210 --> 01:36:21.030
We've talked about it a lot in Bitcoin for a long time,
1090
01:36:21.810 --> 01:36:23.270
which is that
1091
01:36:24.875 --> 01:36:30.415
we're never gonna really have accessible privacy if it costs more and is more difficult,
1092
01:36:31.435 --> 01:36:37.510
to use Bitcoin privately than not. Because it's just incentives. Yeah. Everything in this space is incentives, and it's
1093
01:36:37.810 --> 01:36:42.070
and if you look at most of the brokings in our current society, it's broken incentives.
1094
01:36:43.905 --> 01:36:44.405
So
1095
01:36:45.344 --> 01:36:49.685
with this, you know, if you were just a dumbass user and you were just sending,
1096
01:36:50.440 --> 01:36:52.460
you know, all your funds on chain,
1097
01:36:54.360 --> 01:36:55.659
in the cheapest consolidated
1098
01:36:55.960 --> 01:37:10.320
transaction possible, like this most compact on chain transaction that's horrible for your privacy. Like, every time fees go up on chain, you see, like, all influencer accounts are like, oh, combine all of your UTXOs because fuck privacy. You just wanna have, you know, you wanna have cheaper fees.
1099
01:37:11.980 --> 01:37:25.435
You compare someone doing that, the most naive worst Bitcoin transaction from privacy point of view. You compare them doing it on Federman. They they have a cheaper transaction. They have a faster transaction. They have a more user friendly transaction with no confirmations or anything,
1100
01:37:26.050 --> 01:37:28.230
and they have more private transaction.
1101
01:37:28.770 --> 01:37:30.550
So it actually hits the incentives,
1102
01:37:31.650 --> 01:37:34.550
at least from the user point of view, extremely well.
1103
01:37:35.125 --> 01:37:36.824
And I'm you know, once again,
1104
01:37:37.605 --> 01:37:40.185
jury's out on on how effective
1105
01:37:40.885 --> 01:37:44.580
how, you know, how much these claims will be true and when this stuff
1106
01:37:52.715 --> 01:38:05.040
important enough project that I'm trying to get them out extra developer help. So I by talking about it, it gets them more support there. And I you know, that's why I'm talking about it. But I'm also talking about it because I think it's a good,
1107
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:14.425
role model of a type of project where they're they're thinking out of the box, and they're using the tools we have today, and they're not expecting some kind of protocol change in Bitcoin that we're never gonna fucking have.
1108
01:38:16.085 --> 01:38:20.585
I understand the the tinted window. Right? Toyota Camry with tinted windows. Accessible privacy.
1109
01:38:25.320 --> 01:38:26.380
Now Anyway, guys,
1110
01:38:27.320 --> 01:38:32.045
we're at the hour and 40 minute mark. Seth has another interview he's gotta do after this.
1111
01:38:33.864 --> 01:38:41.389
I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and we didn't really know where we're gonna go with it, but I think, Kinda like the no topic chat. Yeah. It was fun.
1112
01:38:43.770 --> 01:38:45.849
I appreciate you guys joining us. I,
1113
01:38:47.275 --> 01:38:53.055
there'll never be a 1st rep in this in this studio again, so you guys are officially the 1st rep in this studio.
1114
01:38:53.835 --> 01:38:57.450
The honor is mine. I'd like to wrap up the show with final thoughts.
1115
01:38:58.470 --> 01:38:59.610
Seth, final thoughts.
1116
01:39:01.110 --> 01:39:04.170
Oh, hard to sum up all the different things we touched on today.
1117
01:39:04.790 --> 01:39:10.795
I think final thought would just be try to try to leverage these adversarial events that Bitcoin's gonna wade into
1118
01:39:11.335 --> 01:39:11.835
as
1119
01:39:12.670 --> 01:39:16.690
fire for you to to work on how you handle Bitcoin, how you approach privacy.
1120
01:39:17.470 --> 01:39:22.824
And then also try to use it to push your favorite wallet, your favorite tool within Bitcoin, your favorite merchant, whoever,
1121
01:39:23.284 --> 01:39:24.985
to think more deeply about
1122
01:39:25.364 --> 01:39:31.699
maximizing the freedom that Bitcoin can bring. And with the way Bitcoin is today, that means going through some hoops to use it properly.
1123
01:39:32.400 --> 01:39:52.090
But, hopefully, with things maybe like Fedimint or other tools, we'll be able to improve that over the long run and give people different sets of trade offs. Like I said, always gonna be trade offs, but different sets of trade offs. So, yeah, don't don't let these events become just kinda memory hold and loss, but use them as incentive for you and incentive for others to to improve and grow and and take on more responsibility.
1124
01:39:52.535 --> 01:39:54.635
Thanks, Seth. Nico, final thoughts?
1125
01:39:56.455 --> 01:39:59.950
Yeah. First of all, super honored to be here, man. Thanks for the invite.
1126
01:40:00.510 --> 01:40:01.890
It's been a long time coming.
1127
01:40:02.270 --> 01:40:13.975
Appreciate it, brother. Awesome studio. I I see the potential. I see it. We were supposed to record simply Bitcoin, what, yesterday? We were. So instead, we did dispatch in person. We'll do simply at the end of the month. That's a great surprise, man.
1128
01:40:14.675 --> 01:40:18.710
So here are my final thoughts. I'm I'm a little bit more militant and stuff.
1129
01:40:20.530 --> 01:40:23.590
That's highly militant. We we have a chance, for freedom.
1130
01:40:24.130 --> 01:40:25.110
Right? And
1131
01:40:26.215 --> 01:40:29.915
it's gonna be casualties. It's it's going to get a whole lot harder.
1132
01:40:30.775 --> 01:40:35.435
So you have to really ask yourself, what are you in this for? Are you in this for just the wealth?
1133
01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:42.860
Are you in this for freeing mankind? Do you want your children to be free? And these are all questions that you have to ask yourself.
1134
01:40:43.445 --> 01:40:45.145
What are you really in this for?
1135
01:40:46.245 --> 01:40:53.550
And I think that if enough people take self custody, if enough people are in this for the freedom, I think we have a really good shot at winning this.
1136
01:40:54.810 --> 01:40:58.270
Just gotta bunker down and, to steal your line.
1137
01:40:58.975 --> 01:41:00.275
Stay humble, Stack Sats.
1138
01:41:00.735 --> 01:41:01.955
Let's fucking go.
1139
01:41:02.735 --> 01:41:07.395
I wanna thank our guests. I wanna thank all the freaks who tuned in and listened live.
1140
01:41:08.110 --> 01:41:11.730
Huge thanks to all the freaks who continue to support the show and keep it ad free.
1141
01:41:12.030 --> 01:41:13.730
Reminder, you can support at cildispatch.com
1142
01:41:14.350 --> 01:41:16.930
or in your favorite podcasting 2.0 app.
1143
01:41:17.655 --> 01:41:27.090
If you don't have stats to spare, consider telling your friends and family to type Zillow Dispatch in their favorite podcast app and press the subscribe button. It does help. I will see you freaks tomorrow
1144
01:41:27.630 --> 01:41:28.130
since
1145
01:41:28.990 --> 01:41:35.250
I left you hanging for 3 weeks. I'm gonna do a back to back dispatches. And tomorrow in the same studio, we're gonna be recording
1146
01:41:36.255 --> 01:41:37.475
with Texas Slim,
1147
01:41:38.175 --> 01:41:40.355
who I guess is Tennessee Slim this week,
1148
01:41:41.135 --> 01:41:41.955
and Carlino
1149
01:41:42.820 --> 01:41:54.453
from IBEX, and Michael Atwood from Oshi. It's gonna be a great conversation on bootstrapping a circular economy. I'm really excited for it. I hope you guys are excited for it. To quote Nico, stay humble, Stack Sats. Cheers.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 7:56:52 PM
Duration: 6115.448
Channels: 1
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2
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I know it's been a few weeks since you've last heard a dispatch.
3
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That is on me,
4
00:00:46.405 --> 00:00:48.185
but I haven't been on vacation.
5
00:00:48.565 --> 00:00:50.425
I have been working around the clock
6
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on the next chapter. Got a lot of big things planned.
7
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First and foremost, I was in Oslo
8
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for the Human Rights Foundation Freedom Forum.
9
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That was an extremely rewarding experience.
10
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You will hear more about that, in the future. I shot a small documentary series,
11
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that we hope to have edited and released, at least the first couple of episodes soon.
12
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So there'll be more details on that.
13
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In addition to that,
14
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we have launched something called Bitcoin Park, a very special initiative
15
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in Nashville.
16
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It's going to be a mix of a community center and social club. We have all dedicated to Bitcoin. We have an event space.
17
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Nash Bitcoiners,
18
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is gonna be held here tomorrow.
19
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Over 200 Bitcoiners will be there.
20
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You'll be able to buy burgers with sats.
21
00:01:49.450 --> 00:01:53.950
There is going to be workshops here. There's a whole co working space.
22
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We're right near the 2 colleges,
23
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in Nashville, Belmont, and Vanderbilt.
24
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So we will be ideally
25
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doing dev workshops
26
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with,
27
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the youth of our nation
28
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to hopefully bring them into Bitcoin development. We'll be doing self custody workshops,
29
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all different sorts of events here at Bitcoin Park. And in addition to that,
30
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we have a brand new Bitcoin TV studio here, which dispatch will be broadcast from going forward.
31
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I'm hoping to do
32
00:02:25.920 --> 00:02:30.340
more in person conversations on dispatch than through the Internet. It's always
33
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just more enjoyable,
34
00:02:32.625 --> 00:02:34.805
and I think the conversations come out better.
35
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Starting with today's conversation,
36
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we have oh, and, also, this is literally
37
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I've just been setting up the studio today
38
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all day.
39
00:02:46.665 --> 00:02:49.405
It's a very minimal viable product in here right now.
40
00:02:49.945 --> 00:02:58.120
So apologies to our guests who are here, but also apologies to the listeners. That is why this is the 1st dispatch without a bumper.
41
00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:06.745
You know, some mainstream media clip that we can all laugh at together in 5 years does not exist on this one, and we will not be ending it with a music video.
42
00:03:07.605 --> 00:03:11.945
On that note, though, I am gonna be doing another rip here for dispatch,
43
00:03:13.370 --> 00:03:18.190
tomorrow that will also go live. I'm thinking that's going to be
44
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around 1700
45
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UTC tomorrow,
46
00:03:22.245 --> 00:03:25.625
and, hopefully, I will have the setup fully set up for that,
47
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and you will get the dispatch you know and love.
48
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So to the rider dive freaks out there,
49
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I just wanna thank you again for supporting the show and keeping it ad free,
50
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sponsor free, dedicated purely to actionable discussion.
51
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I really do appreciate you. I couldn't do it without you.
52
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Once again, the easiest way to support the show is go to sidledispech.com.
53
00:03:48.200 --> 00:03:55.099
I have a BTC base server there. You can also use podcasting 2 point o apps, like Breeze and Fountain Podcast to stream sass to the show.
54
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And if you remember,
55
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at least the rider dies, remember I said 3 weeks ago
56
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that if you use the boostogram feature on podcasting 2.0 apps, which is where you put a message
57
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and choose how many sats you wanna send, that I will read the top ones.
58
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I know it has been 3 weeks, but
59
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gotta give credit where credit's due. We have Chad Farrow here.
60
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He
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contributed 50,000 sats to the cause and says, loves the idea of reading the top boost on each episode.
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I'm curious to see what the freaks have to say. FYI, a boost with the message is a boostogram, but I'm just being picky.
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Thank you, Chad.
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And we have Mary,
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Oscar said, amazing episode. Hoping all the Fountain users can help you realize your goal of staying ad free and a 100% audience funded. He contributed 30,000 sats.
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And then we have Bon who contributed 25,951
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sats, very specific amount of sats.
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And he said, I started an experiment in April, and this is now the 2nd month of doing it, and I like it. I load up fountain with a Netflix subscription amount of sats every month.
69
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Instead of streaming sats per minute, I now just boost an amount at the end of a show based on length. Shows with ads get 5 seconds per minute, and no ad shows get 20 seconds per minute. At the end of the month, if there's a balance in fountain, I then dump the remaining sats to shows with no ads.
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This boost of 25951
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is an example of that value for value.
72
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And then,
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vague said for 4,000 sats, stay humble. Vague.
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Thanks, vague. You're always you're always a supporter. But, anyway, if you use a podcasting 2.0 app, you can read everybody's boosts after they send them, which is pretty cool on each episode. So if you wanna support the show, that's a fun way of supporting it.
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If you contribute one of the highest boosts, I will read it
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tomorrow, I guess. So get those in. Maybe you can get a nice cheap one in, you know, if no one else gets it in.
77
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Okay. So with all that said,
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this is a special rip because it's the first one in the new studio, first with the new chapter.
79
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80
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81
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Was it was it last night or this morning? Figured out this morning you were in town. Yeah. I think this morning. Fuck. Yeah. Yeah. Love to see that happen. And then we have Nico
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83
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I've never heard better acoustics in my life. There's literally no
84
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was it reverb? What? Echo, reverb, anything. Yep. There's no echo. It's it's perfect. I love it.
85
00:06:45.845 --> 00:06:49.925
86
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I have him on a wireless mic. So if he's a little bit lower, worse sound quality than me and Seth,
87
00:06:56.500 --> 00:07:01.015
don't hold it against him. That is that is my fault. I take personal responsibility for that. And,
88
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if we didn't completely bankrupt ourselves on Bitcoin Park, we'd invest in some some new mics,
89
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for the 3rd and 4th guest because I wanna have I think I really like party episodes. I wanna have more party rips in here. Yeah.
90
00:07:16.385 --> 00:07:20.405
I feel like it's a really good room for party rips. Yeah. You could do a big group in here.
91
00:07:21.665 --> 00:07:25.285
So what do you guys think of Bitcoin Park? I, like, gave you both the tour.
92
00:07:26.370 --> 00:07:35.945
93
00:07:36.725 --> 00:07:39.305
but it really looks like a a haven for
94
00:07:39.765 --> 00:07:47.090
Bitcoiners and and just really kinda freedom loving people. So excited to see where the cafe goes, where all the event space Yeah. We have a fucking cafe.
95
00:07:47.470 --> 00:07:47.970
96
00:07:49.630 --> 00:07:53.514
Yeah. I'm pretty excited. I'm I'm bummed, Seth, that you won't be here for NASH Bitcoiners. But,
97
00:07:54.315 --> 00:08:05.090
98
00:08:05.870 --> 00:08:10.805
99
00:08:11.985 --> 00:08:17.365
100
00:08:18.780 --> 00:08:21.040
I'm just excited to see how this plays out.
101
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I think when Bitcoin, we always say, you know, Bitcoin is going to take over and all that. I think this is part of the process, man. I think this is definitely a step up.
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00:08:32.045 --> 00:08:39.110
103
00:08:40.050 --> 00:08:45.805
104
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don't really have any someone asked me what the topic of today's conversation was, and I just don't have a topic.
105
00:08:54.010 --> 00:09:00.190
We just have a new studio, and it's a Bitcoin Tuesday, and the freaks haven't heard from dispatch in 3 weeks. So
106
00:09:00.925 --> 00:09:03.985
you guys are both in town. I just kinda made it happen.
107
00:09:05.645 --> 00:09:11.210
Well, I guess before we get started, I didn't chill the matrix chat. If you're not on the matrix chat, go to dispatch.com
108
00:09:12.790 --> 00:09:14.490
and, click that dot
109
00:09:14.870 --> 00:09:16.730
chat button. Even though we haven't
110
00:09:17.144 --> 00:09:20.605
had a dispatch in 3 weeks, that conversation in that chat has
111
00:09:20.985 --> 00:09:23.885
been fucking fire as usual. So if you're in that chat,
112
00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.140
not only are you participating in the live chat for the shows,
113
00:09:27.760 --> 00:09:31.700
but there's also just really great discussion on privacy, freedom, and Bitcoin
114
00:09:33.075 --> 00:09:34.055
in that chat.
115
00:09:37.235 --> 00:09:41.175
Yeah. So, I mean, where do you guys wanna start? Do you have something you wanna talk about? Or
116
00:09:42.560 --> 00:09:44.660
117
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because I saw it, and I think it'd be
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interesting to get your guys' opinion.
119
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120
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121
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I don't know. What do you what do you guys think the look, I'm not a fan of government of regulation, but
122
00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:07.930
I don't know. What what are your guys' opinion on this? I have no I don't know what to think because I haven't looked into it.
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00:10:09.025 --> 00:10:15.125
124
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Definitely always wary of stuff like that. I mean, I think,
125
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a way that the state could kind of prevent a lot of Bitcoin's power and a lot of Bitcoin's good use cases is just trying to kind of co opt it and fold it back into a broken system. So I'm I'm very wary of, like, state sponsored pro Bitcoin stuff.
126
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But that's not to say that good things can't happen through regulation. It's just that regulation,
127
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especially cryptocurrency focused regulation, is usually
128
00:10:42.235 --> 00:10:45.615
a tool that gets used against freedom and doesn't promote it.
129
00:10:45.915 --> 00:10:54.000
But like I said, I I know nothing about this bill specifically, so I'll have to dig in and and see a little bit more of that. I guess it literally got released this morning. Yeah.
130
00:10:54.860 --> 00:11:13.890
131
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In this case, I did read through it briefly.
132
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First, I will say
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not to be a Debbie Downer, but
134
00:11:23.704 --> 00:11:36.795
probably zero chance this thing gets passed. But it's still good to see that it was proposed, and it was I'm not a big politics guy, but it was proposed. Lummis did it with Gillibrand, and Gillibrand is a big on the progressive side. So republican woman,
135
00:11:37.815 --> 00:11:41.035
democrat woman together to the bill. Good to see.
136
00:11:41.894 --> 00:11:43.975
But the one thing that was in it that was
137
00:11:44.810 --> 00:11:46.589
I I really liked seeing was
138
00:11:47.050 --> 00:11:51.069
a de minimis tax exemption. So Bitcoin spends under $200,
139
00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:53.949
which is a very low amount regardless, but
140
00:11:54.495 --> 00:12:00.515
at least it was in there. Right? This idea that, you know, you shouldn't be if you're just using this as a currency day to day.
141
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And And it's not even just the, you know, actually
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paying taxes. I think a lot of people
143
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support paying taxes if it's
144
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being spent efficiently or whatnot.
145
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It's the mental cost of actually, like, every time you you do a,
146
00:12:19.040 --> 00:12:22.340
you know, $5 transaction or $6 transaction or something,
147
00:12:22.880 --> 00:12:26.580
that you have to, like, keep track of it and and do that. So that was good to see,
148
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but,
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I kinda just saw that part, and I was like, oh, well, that's that's awesome. And then I just didn't really read the rest because I was setting up the studio this morning.
150
00:12:36.970 --> 00:12:39.709
The other thing that was really cool that came out today
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or I maybe even cooler than than that because I don't know if that's the coolest thing,
152
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is Gladstein and a bunch of activists basically did
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did you see the
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the tech innovators? I'm doing quote, unquote tech innovators that, like, post it they, like, sent a letter to congress. Yeah. And they were like, Bitcoin and cryptocurrency
155
00:13:02.209 --> 00:13:04.629
is is just bad for people. And
156
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they were like most blockchain projects have horrible privacy and the ones that do are safe havens for money launderers. Like they just like attacked on both sides, like damned if you do damned if you don't, and they were like, stifle us with heavy regulations.
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Gladstein and, like, 19
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human rights activists from around the world
159
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basically did the opposite of that letter today to US Congress. And I think it was financial inclusion dot tech is where that letter is. Yeah. Shout out to David Zell of the Bitcoin Policy Institute.
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161
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That I always say this,
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they function as the Bitcoin lobbying arm. That's really what they do, and I think that
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in the next couple of years,
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it's gonna
165
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it's gonna be very important. Every time I talk to David, I'm like, when are you gonna move to DC?
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And he absolutely hates that question because I think he think he knows it's inevitable.
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He's a Nashville boy. He is a Nashville boy, but you gotta you gotta get into the heart of the swamp, you know, to deal with the creatures.
168
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So, yeah, shout out to That sounds like a horrible life. It totally
169
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ends. That's what it is. That's what it is. But, but someone's gotta do it. That's the thing. Maybe, like, Zelle hires someone underneath him to do it. This someone's gotta do it. Someone has to do it. And it can't be coin center. Okay? Because they totally dropped the effing ball, even though Jerry Brito, I know he works hard,
170
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but I think it's important that
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Bitcoin has its own
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173
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like, I'm
174
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I,
175
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the whole lobbying politics thing is something that I I think the whole point of Freedom Tech is that you can ignore that shit. Yeah. But it is good to see that there are so many there's there's multiple now Bitcoin only lobbying firms that aren't, like, focused on DeFi and tokens. And I think during the transition,
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177
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Because, look, whether we like it or not, I think fiat's gonna be around
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for a good amount of time. Right? So until we get into a Bitcoin standard, I think,
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you know, as much as Bitcoiners hate politics and whatever,
180
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I'm a strong believer in look. I'd rather have these as many of these people on our side, then
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have some adversarial people. Right. So that's kind of the logic that I have, even though I
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I think politics is a shit coin, and, hopefully, Bitcoin makes it irrelevant.
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connotations, and people understand that it it's something that's leveraged for a lot of very, very negative things
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kind of in the political world. So doing it for Bitcoin has always been a weird kind of paradox for me. I I understand the point, and it's one of those things where, like,
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I would never get involved in it, but, like, I have respect for the people who do it and do it well and are actually trying to promote
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things that promote freedom and not just kind of fitting Bitcoin into a broken system. So I think there is a space for that and, like, especially the explanations to people to get them to understand, like, what Bitcoin actually is.
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But I definitely do think we need to be
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be wary that we don't kind of just get slowly boiled in a regulatory
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pot
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where they're able to kinda slowly take control and make it so that, yeah, you can have your Bitcoin, but you can't use it the way you want. Because, ultimately, if we lose that that freedom money, that freedom tech piece of it, we're losing what Bitcoin ultimately brings to us.
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So that's always where, like I think there's a hard line to to ride there, but there's definitely been some some interesting and good work done
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specifically on educating people within the government and educating
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people who are big names at least on what Bitcoin is.
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I mean, so Gladstein I was just in Oslo,
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and Gladstein,
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He, like, got a bunch of, the activists and some some Bitcoiners and brought them to Norwegian parliament to educate them.
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And I was not invited.
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And I'm pretty sure it's like every Bitcoiner has different strengths or whatever, and he was just like, he's gonna walk into Norwegian parliament and just be like, fuck all of
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you.
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I don't want your regs. I don't want you involved.
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be the pro regulatory
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what they can
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contribute, and and they help everyone has their different skill sets, and they focus on different things.
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approach too. I I think, like, one of the reasons why I trend against
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the regulatory
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lobbying, all of that,
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is because I I guess maybe I'm a little bit less optimistic about the way that a tool like this
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can work in the current system. But I I do like that, like, there's a lot I think there's a lot of optimism in the people who see that that maybe
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Bitcoin can fit in as a tool to to slowly improve the system rather than, like, burning it to the ground because, like, anarchy has a lot of problems.
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So if we can do it in a way that's
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peaceable and slow and yet still get the most out of Bitcoin and and the things that it can bring as a tool, I think there there may be value in that, and it's a very optimistic view. I I just and I I think that, you know, part of the reason that Bitcoiners
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I think that we know deep down inside that
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if a politician supports Bitcoin, what they're really doing,
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whether it's directly or indirectly, they're they're really
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sacrificing their power,
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then they're giving it up.
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So I mean, the people that are meant to so called regulate the industry,
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the incentives are not aligned whatsoever.
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That's kind of the way that I see it.
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Obviously, you know, there's some, but I think that a lot of a lot of these
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bureaucrats are
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their parasites, and they feed off the
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the fiat system, so they're not incentivized for that system to go anywhere. And these are the same people that are supposed to regulate.
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Like,
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I don't know. That that's how I feel about it.
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I think definitely a little bit of pushback there on my end. I mean, I
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I don't know. I don't know that they are trying to give up power as part of that, and I think most of them there are probably some ones that are
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very
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that very much want to bring freedom through politics, which are very, like, good,
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sincere people. They're few and far between in the political world, but there are some there.
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But I think
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Bitcoin can very much be leveraged as a tool to continue their power. It's not something that just, if we do nothing,
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will break down a broken system and bring a perfect world. And I think that's
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one of the traps that I see a lot of Bitcoiners and other people. I mean, I even think people in other projects,
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talking in a way that kind of like, kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable
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thing. And I think that can lead to a lot of dangerous things, like the current
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very KYC friendly,
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crowd that has a lot of big winners, but really just a lot of people in the whole cryptocurrency space, very per regulation.
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Many are pro chain analysis, which is absolutely nuts, but there are many people that are like that. And a lot of that stuff comes from
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politicians who know that they can actually turn Bitcoin into a tool that, if nothing else, does nothing to break down their power,
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and in some ways, could even improve it. And I think, like, the KYC StackSats thing is a an example of that because it
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it feels like
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what, Matt?
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There are are really good ways to do it, but I was trying to be specific in, like that I'm I'm talking bad about the KYC stack sets. Like, you just set up your your dollar cost averaging, and you walk away. Post the screenshots on Twitter.
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Exactly. Of how much you just bought in Cash App every every 3 hours.
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That I think just that kind of thing, people can get pulled into this trap of thinking Bitcoin is inevitable. And even though I sacrifice all of the freedom principles that I care about now, if I do it and have more Bitcoin, that's gonna fix the world, and that's gonna fix my future.
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And I think that's definitely something we should be wary of and and is something where that could be leveraged to be an easy trap for the few people who actually are freedom focused because then, man, I know Matt's talked about this a ton. This is a common topic is how KYC can link to a nice tidy list of Bitcoiners that they can go to. Most are just gonna give in, and and the few that fight, they're gonna now have their their name on a list and all that. So I think just a little pushback on that idea and a lot of what I hear about the kind of the Bitcoin is inevitable
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thing and and sacrificing
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for that Bitcoin is inevitable beam, I think, is is a a dangerous value problem. So one sec. So the first thing is,
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that I've become very passionate about, and I think there's a lot of momentum there.
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And it's one of the focuses with the Bitcoin Park initiative.
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And, also, this idea of, like, these grassroots Bitcoin communities popping up, like, it's really fucking cool, all these meetups that are just growing around the world, and they're they're happening at a time when everyone was locked down and most people weren't seeing each other. But these Bitcoin communities were growing, and they they all pretty much grew organically. There's not, like, a top down thing that's happening.
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So, ultimately,
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on the KYC conversation, I always
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kinda go back to,
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it seems mostly like it's a pain point of our current position in the adoption cycle because most people will not be buying Bitcoin in the future. They will they will be earning Bitcoin, and most people will not be selling Bitcoin. They'll be spending Bitcoin.
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I actually I forget who said it, but someone said, like, a good
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I don't love the meme.
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I actually love the meme, we're still early, but I don't love the comment, we're still early. But someone made an interesting comment,
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that as long as you're buying Bitcoin and selling Bitcoin, you're still early because 99% of people that interact with Bitcoin for the lifetime of Bitcoin
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will not be buying or selling it. They'll be earning or spending it.
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And I don't think we're late. I think everyone who comes into Bitcoin
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always thinks they're late. Like, I thought I was late when I came in. But I wanna point the question at Nico because
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this is something that I've drunkenly been asking Bitcoiners a lot. All over us, I was asking this. The question is, is Bitcoin inevitable?
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the sorry to push back a little bit on stuff. For it. I think that the incentives
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are
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irresistible.
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A good example of that,
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in my opinion, I think this was the 2nd biggest stress test that Bitcoin ever endured.
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And it passed it
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with such flying colors that if you weren't plugged into Twitter
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or you weren't checking the hash rate or you weren't checking the news, if you were just using Bitcoin, you would have you would have had no idea.
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And that is the Chinese Communist Party
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banned Bitcoin mining
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within its borders
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without any central authority or nothing.
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The Hash rate decentralized went all over the world. There's a bit of a concentration in the US. I don't like that way too much in the US.
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No coercion. It was all incentives. And the incentive is so strong,
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that in China,
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it's estimated that between 10 to 20 percent of the hash rate is still located in there. That means that there's Chinese that are risking to lose it all, or the government themselves or corrupt corruption
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that are still mining it. And that's the incentives. That's how strong the incentives are. And I think that
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government money, specifically CBDCs,
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will own they'll have to rely on coercion.
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So
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I, in my in my head, the equation is simple, right? I think incentives are much stronger than coercion.
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And I think that over the long run, that will prevail.
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But that doesn't mean that
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specifically in totalitarian governments
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that don't wanna give up that that power.
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They're gonna try whatever it takes,
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use whatever coercive measures,
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whether that's,
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try to
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make it on the App Store where every single wallet that you use is KYC or some BS because you know they're gonna try that or try to ban selfless app. Store attacks haven't really happened yet. That's definitely gonna
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I feel like 90% of Bitcoin users, if their Bitcoin wallet gets removed from the app store, they can be like, oh my god. What the hell's going on? It's gone. And what worries me and what keeps me up at night. Right? So, again, so to answer your original question Yes. Right, it's inevitable.
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We were talking about this a little bit when we were having those delicious burgers.
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Dude,
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I would scares me
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is people I don't think people are ready for self custody. They're just not Like, I don't think they're ready for that. Like,
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and I see it in people's faces, especially like the older generation. I'm like,
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you just gotta write down those 24 words. You gotta put them on metal. You gotta put it in the safe plan of their life.
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They're they've been so in the matrix for the majority of their lives, the fiat matrix,
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that you just shock them with this, like, better system. My opinion, it's a lot easier and a lot safer
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that
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their brains just can't compute it. And I think the vast majority of the world is like that. Are you telling me that that person, El Salvador, is selling those pupusas
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knows how to properly store their seed?
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only government approved
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wallets in the App Store. And then you start exactly where where you started.
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Right? This is the whole FDR thing over again. Right? You give me your gold. And I'll give you this dollar. I promise it's backed by gold. Right? So we're we're right where we started. So I think that
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the the fight for self custody and the educational thing is so important. And I think that that's something that they're definitely going to attack, just how they're attacking proof of work right now.
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I think that the next inevitable step is attacking the right to self custody,
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because it's such a revolutionary
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Self custody? The right to self custody. That's Polish. The right to self custody, the terminology was digital assets. Hold your own digital assets.
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So she they were definitely on point on that to have that on. I mean, I look. At the end of the day, right, this whole movement is a movement of personal responsibility,
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and most people
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have lived their whole lives
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shirking as much personal responsibility as possible. Like, our society is literally set up in a way
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to have the least amount of personal responsibility
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to to to even, like, little things, right, where
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every I mean, everyone's getting sued for everything, you know, because it's never someone's
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own personal fault
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that something happened. There's always, like, 3 people you can blame that might have big money bags that you can hit them with. Or,
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yeah, just every single aspect of our society lacks personal responsibility, and it's gonna take a while for people to
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to learn to take personal responsibility back.
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And I'm
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this weird pessimist optimist where, like, my optimistic take is always that
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children need to touch the stove, and, like, people learn
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by getting burned. Right? So I expect a lot of fucking pain,
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and but then, ultimately, people learn and get rewired a bit into how they handle it. And, I mean, I was talking to you earlier
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about my conversation with Dario
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of Moon Wallet with 2Us.
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And,
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you know, he's from Argentina, and he just there was, like, all these Argentinians, and a lot of them use stable coins,
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which, you know, everyone has different threat models. Everyone has different things that they're working on. But the most important thing to me when people are using these tools is that they understand the trade offs. And he was he
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he had spent years trying to educate people on the trade offs of using stable coins and centralization
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risk,
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and a lot of them got burned on Terra.
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They were all holding Terra because they thought that was the decentralized stablecoin, quote, unquote, compared to Tether,
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and they all lost all their money overnight. And that did more for education of the risks of centralized,
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you know, centralized
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currencies
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than any kind of education effort that ever came before that. Right. But the unfortunate part is that people got burned.
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To the inevitable point, I kind of fall in between the 2 of you.
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I honestly do believe Bitcoin's inevitable.
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I'm just
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I don't believe freedom money
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is inevitable. I don't believe Bitcoin as freedom money is necessarily inevitable. I think
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Bitcoin is code, and at the end of the day, it's a movement of people and relies on people to actually stand up and fight for their freedom
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and defend their rights,
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and use the tools.
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There's a very real possibility to me
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that, you know, Bitcoin becomes a global reserve currency of the world, that the purchasing power is significantly higher than it is today.
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But maybe 5% are actually using it in, like, a freedom sovereign way, and 95% of people are just using it in a completely cucked way.
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And so, I mean, that nuance, I don't think, is ever really captured in the Bitcoin is inevitable conversation.
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just that, like, the
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Bitcoin, the chain, Bitcoin, the currency is
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I feel like we're probably at that point where it's not it's not gonna disappear. Like, I don't think Bitcoin's gonna die. I don't think it's gonna
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fail in a catastrophic way, but, yeah, that way of, like, what is its
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success in quotes actually mean in the future, I think, is a very important question. And that's where a lot of the the questions around
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mining centralization,
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around private usage, around lightning, around all of these, around self custody, all of these topics, I think, are vital to decide
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what is this future that has Bitcoin in it, whether that's a Bitcoin standard, hyperbitcoinization,
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or just Bitcoin being another thing that's part of the the current system?
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How how are people who actually do wake up, who do get burned, who do realize the necessity of of personal freedom and financial freedom, specifically?
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What can they actually get out of Bitcoin?
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And I think that's where a lot of the a lot of the wake up calls for people need to come in those situations where people get burned. I think, like, the Freedom Convoy was a great example of people getting burned, and I think a lot of Bitcoiners woke up to some of the the issues with Bitcoin privacy and with the approach to using Bitcoin for that specific use case and the things that that go into that, the OPSEC, all of that. But I think more and more scenarios like that are going to happen,
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and it's really going to be those are gonna be the deciding moments in how useful will Bitcoin be and how much
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change will it bring for those people who do wake up, based on how we respond in those situations.
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So I'm
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I hope that Bitcoiners stay open to feedback, stay open to the possibility of Bitcoin not succeeding perfectly,
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so that we can keep an eye out for the things that we need to focus on, the things that need to be improved, the things that need extra dev time, the things that need,
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potentially changes on chain, like, whatever needs to happen to make this the most useful thing. People kinda need to stay open to that. But it'll be it'll be interesting to see what the next kind
390
00:33:05.055 --> 00:33:14.110
of touching the burner moment is because, ultimately, I mean, the the same applies for Bitcoin. It applies for personal privacy. It applies in almost every area where self responsibility is involved.
391
00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:19.445
You something has to make you decide, I actually want to put in the time and effort and be responsible
392
00:33:20.145 --> 00:33:22.485
because I know that what I gain from it is far more important.
393
00:33:22.865 --> 00:33:26.485
And so that's something where I'm curious what the next kinda moment of that is with Bitcoin.
394
00:33:27.090 --> 00:33:28.630
The North American mining centralization
395
00:33:29.250 --> 00:33:35.005
coupled with the push against proof of work should be scaring people, I think. I don't know. I would love if they if they,
396
00:33:35.785 --> 00:33:37.725
397
00:33:38.025 --> 00:33:51.150
398
00:33:51.795 --> 00:33:56.135
But I kind of wanted to add to that thing. You're talking about burning
399
00:33:56.675 --> 00:33:57.975
your finger on the stove.
400
00:33:58.675 --> 00:33:59.175
So
401
00:33:59.639 --> 00:34:01.899
what I've noticed, I've picked up a pattern.
402
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.220
And it's a very striking pattern. And
403
00:34:06.815 --> 00:34:07.315
look,
404
00:34:07.934 --> 00:34:15.395
you try to convince someone about Bitcoin and they live in a western country, to use Gladstein's own words, they have financial privilege,
405
00:34:16.490 --> 00:34:18.910
Very hard sell. They're like, to use too much energy,
406
00:34:19.210 --> 00:34:23.470
I have Cash App. I have PayPal, Venmo. I was like, why does that need to exist?
407
00:34:24.475 --> 00:34:27.535
I pitch a Venezuelan or a Latino team. I say,
408
00:34:27.835 --> 00:34:28.335
nongovernment
409
00:34:28.715 --> 00:34:32.495
money that is hard to confiscate that can't be debased. And
410
00:34:33.340 --> 00:34:40.000
in 10 seconds, they say, how do I sign up? Because the difference between the two is that as an American,
411
00:34:41.165 --> 00:34:44.305
specifically in the in the beginning, you see Bitcoin as an investment.
412
00:34:45.165 --> 00:34:46.545
Whereas in the Argentine,
413
00:34:47.085 --> 00:34:48.945
the Venezuelan, the Afghani,
414
00:34:50.290 --> 00:34:50.790
right,
415
00:34:51.170 --> 00:34:53.270
they see it as a necessity.
416
00:34:53.570 --> 00:34:55.190
They don't have another option.
417
00:34:55.570 --> 00:34:59.315
And this is kind of the tragedy of stable coins. Right? And this is why I'm like
418
00:35:00.835 --> 00:35:04.935
hate is a strong word, but I'll use the word, whatever that word is, below hate.
419
00:35:06.115 --> 00:35:08.055
I don't like them because they provide
420
00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:09.119
they
421
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:12.640
they prove they give this sense they give a false refuge.
422
00:35:13.180 --> 00:35:15.040
And and, Matt, you were actually
423
00:35:15.635 --> 00:35:21.095
telling us a story about the Argentines using Luna because they bought into the whole tether fund.
424
00:35:21.715 --> 00:35:25.530
And they got totally wrecked. And here's the thing, stable what?
425
00:35:25.990 --> 00:35:27.530
It's stable on the way down?
426
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:29.290
Is stable 2%
427
00:35:29.670 --> 00:35:35.015
like lose money slowly? Is that stability? Or is in Bitcoin? It's like, fine. Yeah, it's volatile.
428
00:35:36.115 --> 00:35:40.720
But you look at the purchasing power of Bitcoin over 2 or 3 years, that thing's just going up.
429
00:35:41.520 --> 00:35:50.705
So the how do we convince more people specifically in countries that actually need it, right? And I would say in the West, they need it too, but they just haven't found that out yet.
430
00:35:52.385 --> 00:35:53.845
How do we convince people
431
00:35:54.385 --> 00:35:56.005
to stay away from these,
432
00:35:56.625 --> 00:35:58.405
these false safe havens
433
00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.620
and actually
434
00:36:00.080 --> 00:36:03.380
use something that will actually give them financial sovereignty.
435
00:36:03.680 --> 00:36:09.635
That that I think is is a very difficult problem to solve. But I think that I think it's a solvable problem.
436
00:36:10.095 --> 00:36:16.994
Because the incentive like, they're incentivized to understand something like that, right? Because in the in the United States, you're not incentivized,
437
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:21.460
Right? Like you, let's say you get a you have a good job, you have a good salary.
438
00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:23.380
You know, you have your 401k.
439
00:36:24.215 --> 00:36:28.235
Like okay, yeah, I like Bitcoin. It's cool, but you don't really understand the revolutionary
440
00:36:28.615 --> 00:36:29.995
aspect unless like,
441
00:36:30.375 --> 00:36:32.875
you know, you start asking a little bit of questions, right?
442
00:36:33.390 --> 00:36:34.210
But the Venezuelan
443
00:36:34.670 --> 00:36:38.770
the the personnel Salvador selling pupusas is a whole other
444
00:36:39.710 --> 00:36:40.610
whole other debate.
445
00:36:40.994 --> 00:36:43.255
446
00:36:45.395 --> 00:36:47.895
just a little bit of history lesson for Bitcoiners.
447
00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:51.220
A lot of Bitcoiners think that stablecoins
448
00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:52.260
were
449
00:36:52.560 --> 00:36:54.099
something that was, like, added
450
00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.099
post Bitcoin. But, really, if you look at most of the pre
451
00:36:58.425 --> 00:36:59.565
cypherpunk money
452
00:37:00.105 --> 00:37:01.005
before Bitcoin,
453
00:37:01.465 --> 00:37:09.760
they all basically ended up having a trusted third party that was that had some kind of USD in a bank account or some kind of pegged value.
454
00:37:10.779 --> 00:37:15.885
The novel thing about Bitcoin is that you actually have this this bearer token that exists only in the digital realm.
455
00:37:16.445 --> 00:37:19.905
So you're actually able to eliminate that final centralized third party.
456
00:37:20.925 --> 00:37:32.109
So I mean, and just in general, I think that's probably where most people heads go first. Right? Which is okay, I want digital money, and I want it to be the same money that I want already. Right? That's a whole different education
457
00:37:32.410 --> 00:37:34.190
thing that I don't even know
458
00:37:34.645 --> 00:37:40.185
if it necessarily needs to be a top down education or even a grassroots education. Like I think that's just
459
00:37:40.565 --> 00:37:46.940
that's a reframing of what you think about money, which is that that money is is not something that's issued by a state or corporation.
460
00:37:47.640 --> 00:37:51.180
It's something that exists on its own in this in this digital realm.
461
00:37:53.235 --> 00:37:55.815
The idea of being able to send payments
462
00:37:57.075 --> 00:37:58.055
around the world
463
00:37:58.640 --> 00:37:59.380
with minimized
464
00:37:59.680 --> 00:38:14.725
trusted third parties and minimize censorship is something that people can grasp really quickly, which is why I think stable coins have been very successful, particularly in parts of the world where their own government currency is fucking horrible. So they're like, okay. I can and they a lot of these people, they can't use, like, PayPal. They can't use,
465
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:17.540
Western Union or something because they get blocked out.
466
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:20.100
The other thing is so when I was in
467
00:38:20.720 --> 00:38:25.125
one of the interviews I did for this this documentary series that's coming out is with Roya.
468
00:38:25.665 --> 00:38:29.525
And Roya started she's from Afghanistan. In 2010, she started,
469
00:38:30.819 --> 00:38:34.119
I might butcher their name, but I think it's called Citadel Software Company.
470
00:38:34.500 --> 00:38:36.520
Way ahead of the curve on the Citadel meme.
471
00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:43.125
I asked her how she was way ahead of the curve, and she started it in a town that had like an old Afghani citadel in it. So
472
00:38:44.464 --> 00:38:46.644
she had a very good reason to use that. But
473
00:38:47.830 --> 00:38:52.970
her big thing was empowering women in Afghanistan. She was a woman in Afghanistan. She wanted to empower women in Afghanistan.
474
00:38:53.510 --> 00:38:55.850
80% of her employees were women in Afghanistan,
475
00:38:56.715 --> 00:39:03.455
and these women aren't weren't allowed to have bank accounts. They needed permission from a man or a family member to have bank accounts.
476
00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:07.540
They were completely excluded from the financial system in their society.
477
00:39:08.080 --> 00:39:19.684
So the sell for Bitcoin, like you said, when you talk to, like, Venezuelans or Argentinians, was a very it wasn't even a sale. They had no other option. They had this need. They they wanted to get paid. They wanted to be able to hold their own value,
478
00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:24.099
So they moved to Bitcoin. So in 2013, she started paying them in Bitcoin.
479
00:39:25.359 --> 00:39:27.619
She did massive education campaigns
480
00:39:28.115 --> 00:39:33.415
throughout the country, but they were all mostly focused on women because the women were excluded from the financial system.
481
00:39:33.955 --> 00:39:36.055
She had a good friend who rose.
482
00:39:37.109 --> 00:39:38.330
He became a very,
483
00:39:38.869 --> 00:39:40.570
powerful politician in Afghanistan.
484
00:39:41.590 --> 00:39:48.405
And they would have these, like, spirited debates on Bitcoin. And he's like, our financial system is the best it's ever been in Afghan history.
485
00:39:48.865 --> 00:39:53.125
There's no need for me to use this thing that's, like, super volatile, blah blah blah.
486
00:39:53.850 --> 00:39:55.310
Taliban come into power,
487
00:39:55.850 --> 00:39:58.910
take over everything. They seize all of his assets,
488
00:39:59.690 --> 00:40:03.615
seize absolutely everything he owns. He he escapes from the country,
489
00:40:04.474 --> 00:40:07.375
like, by foot across the border with just a backpack.
490
00:40:08.474 --> 00:40:20.730
Gets the other side, him and Roya start talking. He's like, I completely see why Bitcoin should exist. Right? And but he so so you have this situation where one of the cool parts about Bitcoin to me is the disadvantaged
491
00:40:21.895 --> 00:40:24.635
see the the power of this technology first. Right?
492
00:40:24.935 --> 00:40:29.595
Because the people that are in power, the people that benefit from the current financial system
493
00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:33.090
have no need to see it. They're gonna get burned at a later date.
494
00:40:33.950 --> 00:40:39.855
But, ultimately, it's inevitable for for people to find the need somewhere to get canceled out of these systems somewhere.
495
00:40:41.215 --> 00:40:41.715
Absolutely.
496
00:40:42.415 --> 00:40:44.835
She's awesome, by the way. Rory is really inspiring.
497
00:40:45.615 --> 00:40:47.555
498
00:40:47.855 --> 00:41:02.875
499
00:41:04.454 --> 00:41:05.914
I wanna go back to
500
00:41:06.375 --> 00:41:07.595
the Freedom Convoy,
501
00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.780
because I think this was a pivotal thing on the western side of the world Mhmm.
502
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.480
That I thought was gonna be a
503
00:41:16.625 --> 00:41:19.605
like, I thought when people go back and they're like, what are
504
00:41:19.985 --> 00:41:22.165
the biggest events that happened
505
00:41:23.185 --> 00:41:24.245
in Freedom Technology
506
00:41:25.470 --> 00:41:26.370
in general or Bitcoin in general
507
00:41:27.550 --> 00:41:34.290
over the last year, Freedom Convoy would be probably the top thing that someone said. But I think if you ask the majority of people right now,
508
00:41:35.214 --> 00:41:37.474
they might not even remember that it happened.
509
00:41:38.015 --> 00:41:39.714
510
00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:41.795
know that the hash rate
511
00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:42.620
migration,
512
00:41:42.920 --> 00:41:44.620
but they don't know unless you
513
00:41:45.080 --> 00:41:47.180
have your finger on the pulse. Right.
514
00:41:47.960 --> 00:41:50.700
I, you know, I know I have a different opinion
515
00:41:51.835 --> 00:41:52.734
than you, Matt.
516
00:41:53.434 --> 00:41:55.615
But I think it was a very big
517
00:41:56.315 --> 00:42:03.319
middle finger because it was like, there's definitely a middle finger, dude, the state couldn't because state couldn't seize all of it.
518
00:42:03.619 --> 00:42:08.440
Like, they they didn't get their way. The the they only got their way. I think it was, like, on 20%.
519
00:42:09.285 --> 00:42:12.025
Right? And they scared the crap out of a lot of people, but
520
00:42:12.325 --> 00:42:14.265
the vast majority is nonrecovered.
521
00:42:14.565 --> 00:42:18.025
Like, when the hell that never happens. Yeah. But the I mean
522
00:42:18.382 --> 00:42:24.300
523
00:42:26.055 --> 00:42:29.275
But most of the public organizers of that freedom convoy
524
00:42:29.815 --> 00:42:48.535
525
00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:51.589
I was on the first podcast
526
00:42:52.930 --> 00:42:54.550
that he did when he got back.
527
00:42:54.930 --> 00:42:59.715
When he when he stopped podcasting for a while, he stopped doing his his show. I love the show.
528
00:43:01.235 --> 00:43:04.695
Stopped doing it for a while, man. And he first he came back.
529
00:43:05.155 --> 00:43:09.289
1st show he did. It was me and James Lavish. And dude,
530
00:43:09.589 --> 00:43:10.089
like
531
00:43:11.750 --> 00:43:14.410
you, the look on his face is like he went to war.
532
00:43:14.869 --> 00:43:18.010
But how many people benefited because of his actions?
533
00:43:18.455 --> 00:43:22.555
And if this is really a revolution, like we say, we like, we say it is,
534
00:43:23.895 --> 00:43:26.955
isn't this part of it? Isn't this part of fighting for freedom?
535
00:43:28.160 --> 00:43:33.540
I don't know my and again, like, I'm I understand. And I might be a little bit biased here because
536
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:34.740
I come
537
00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:36.660
from
538
00:43:37.315 --> 00:43:40.055
I come from a country that was destroyed by collectivism,
539
00:43:40.915 --> 00:43:43.015
or Venezuela, and I come to America.
540
00:43:43.955 --> 00:43:46.055
And it's the last bastion of freedom.
541
00:43:47.220 --> 00:43:49.720
And when I see people attacking that,
542
00:43:50.020 --> 00:43:51.480
I react very negatively,
543
00:43:52.100 --> 00:43:54.760
more so than someone that grew up here,
544
00:43:55.075 --> 00:43:57.655
because they don't understand how bad things could get.
545
00:43:58.035 --> 00:43:58.535
So
546
00:43:59.555 --> 00:44:04.820
I really see it from that angle, and I really appreciate all those guys, Jeff Booth, Greg Foss,
547
00:44:05.620 --> 00:44:10.360
BT, Ben. There's a couple others, man. Nobody Caribou.
548
00:44:10.900 --> 00:44:13.000
Yeah. They they they are warriors.
549
00:44:13.615 --> 00:44:18.755
They in this different type of war that we're fighting. It's not a kinetic war. It's a different type of war. I
550
00:44:19.375 --> 00:44:20.835
can't really describe it.
551
00:44:21.289 --> 00:44:21.789
But,
552
00:44:22.329 --> 00:44:28.589
yeah, they're they're they're legends, man. Even if they're even if it's not known to most people, I I think that
553
00:44:28.915 --> 00:44:30.775
history will show otherwise.
554
00:44:31.795 --> 00:44:33.255
555
00:44:33.715 --> 00:44:44.080
556
00:44:44.845 --> 00:44:48.224
I think there is something to say even if you are just a speculator that if
557
00:44:48.765 --> 00:44:50.065
Bitcoin didn't succeed
558
00:44:50.845 --> 00:44:58.150
in that scenario, and I definitely would not say that Bitcoin succeeded in that scenario or that Bitcoiners did. I'm I'm definitely much more on the
559
00:44:58.610 --> 00:45:10.565
the negative side of that whole thing, but I I think it it should be a it should have been, and I think it was not as much of a wake up call as I expected. But I think it should have been a wake up call to people that Bitcoin in its current state
560
00:45:11.109 --> 00:45:11.769
is not
561
00:45:12.630 --> 00:45:20.089
an amazing tool for freedom in these use cases. And we saw I think a lot of the problems came down to just poor OPSEC and poor decisions,
562
00:45:21.095 --> 00:45:37.310
and that applies no matter what currency or cryptocurrency you're using. Of it wasn't even Bitcoin related. Right? Like, there's the fact that Nikko just rattled out all the names that were involved. Yeah. Everyone who was involved, so they videoed all of the truckers who they gave funds to with their truck info and everything. Like, I mean, all that stuff was
563
00:45:37.885 --> 00:45:42.945
a major mistake if you actually wanted those people to be able to use those funds freely and not get tracked down.
564
00:45:43.245 --> 00:45:52.120
But I think we also saw saw with Bitcoin, like, yes, the some of the funds were not complicated as far as we know. We actually don't know if any of them are free and being used.
565
00:45:52.500 --> 00:46:01.705
We know that soon afterwards, 75% had not been moved from the wallets they've been sent to. All of this is transparent on chain. All of the wallet or wallets are tagged. Every output is blacklisted.
566
00:46:02.059 --> 00:46:08.799
We know that 75% hadn't been moved, so they hadn't been claimed by the people who'd they had been given to. And then we know 20 to 25%
567
00:46:09.425 --> 00:46:13.605
were confiscated because they were sent to KYC exchanges, where the exchanges obviously are
568
00:46:13.905 --> 00:46:34.685
cooperating and and giving over names, IDs, and Like, talk about it talk about an education short fall when you have truckers who are, you know, fighting an oppressive government, and they send it to Coinbase. But the the problem and I think the real problem comes down to what you mentioned earlier about needing to drive circular economies. Because the problem was you give out this Bitcoin to people, which I think is a it's a fascinating idea and
569
00:46:35.065 --> 00:46:38.290
very well meaning. But you give all these Bitcoin to truckers who,
570
00:46:38.910 --> 00:46:45.170
all the politics aside, they needed fuel, they needed food, they needed real life things, and you gave them Bitcoin where there's no circular economy
571
00:46:45.474 --> 00:46:51.095
for the most part. There is some like, maybe they could have used, like, Bitrefill or something. Did you see my tweet at the time, my idea?
572
00:46:51.635 --> 00:46:54.214
573
00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:55.539
Bitcoin donations,
574
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:57.220
we should also normalize
575
00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:05.365
Bitcoiners going to protest for no KYC free sets. Yeah. Yeah. If you just show up to a protest with, like, 500 local fiat, you know, and
576
00:47:05.745 --> 00:47:15.430
577
00:47:16.150 --> 00:47:27.275
that's one of the other problems is, like, if we have no circular economy, in those scenarios, Bitcoin's kind of useless. Because you can store value, but you can't actually spend it and get real life things. We have, like, the stepping stone stuff, like,
578
00:47:27.735 --> 00:47:30.555
579
00:47:31.000 --> 00:47:38.220
They might hate me for say well, their lawyers will hate me for saying this. But, like, the Bitcoin company, you can buy Visa cards
580
00:47:38.839 --> 00:47:39.660
via lightning.
581
00:47:41.454 --> 00:47:42.675
Right? So, like, those truckers,
582
00:47:43.375 --> 00:47:52.960
even with blacklisted UTXOs, they could have opened or, like, if if if someone goes there and and gives them cash for their Bitcoin, and they're a Bitcoiner that knows what they're doing, they can then,
583
00:47:53.260 --> 00:47:58.845
you know, spend via lightning to the Bitcoin company. The Bitcoin company doesn't know which UTXO has opened,
584
00:47:59.224 --> 00:48:00.045
that channel,
585
00:48:00.664 --> 00:48:01.404
and then,
586
00:48:03.385 --> 00:48:16.895
have a Visa gift card where they can spend everywhere. Like, is that is that ideal? No. That's not ideal, but That would have been the best case for me. Talking about it all the time because, like, the Monero community loves coin cards. Right? Yeah. No. And it's a stop gap that is useful.
587
00:48:17.994 --> 00:48:38.455
588
00:48:38.915 --> 00:48:54.055
fuel and shit the truckers need and then give the truckers that instead of just handing them Bitcoin and being like, good luck. Yeah. The problem is it's fitting this use case. It's not just the self sovereign HODL thing. It's that we actually need to spend and use it, which is, I think, been less of a focus on Bitcoin
589
00:48:54.355 --> 00:49:01.575
in the Bitcoin community, but I I think there is a good push right now. It feels like it for Circular Economy, for really kind of driving things. And
590
00:49:02.450 --> 00:49:10.645
whatever you think about Lightning, I think that's been one of the good things with Lightning is it's kinda brought back a lot of circular economy topics and a lot of actually spending Bitcoin and
591
00:49:11.205 --> 00:49:20.799
making it a useful tool, trying to drive merchant adoption, all of these things, which is really valuable, and I think a lot of the the crux of the issue. Because even if the UTXOs were known and blacklisted,
592
00:49:21.260 --> 00:49:25.680
if they could actually spin them and then if the merchants knew how to properly handle them,
593
00:49:25.985 --> 00:49:27.365
it could have been okay.
594
00:49:27.985 --> 00:49:34.085
595
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:35.660
That's where they're enforced.
596
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:37.100
There's no
597
00:49:38.200 --> 00:49:49.974
598
00:49:50.355 --> 00:49:55.420
those UTXOs to see when they moved to track them down. So I mean, if you sent them The Royal Canadian Mounties
599
00:49:55.819 --> 00:50:02.115
600
00:50:03.295 --> 00:50:04.495
You know the red suit that they
601
00:50:05.135 --> 00:50:06.275
602
00:50:11.359 --> 00:50:16.845
603
00:50:17.325 --> 00:50:26.040
if we look back in history sorry, Matt. I have to lean in. If we look back and It sees me, like, juicing this thought. I was like, okay. Absolutely. And then so I think if we look back in history,
604
00:50:27.220 --> 00:50:27.960
I think,
605
00:50:28.900 --> 00:50:33.400
you know, if we do the separation of money and save, we're right. Right?
606
00:50:33.835 --> 00:50:38.015
I think that the Canada event and the China event banning
607
00:50:38.394 --> 00:50:41.535
Bitcoin mining, the incentives come through, it's still there.
608
00:50:42.090 --> 00:50:46.350
The Canada thing, that's the only thing that the government could just couldn't snap their finger.
609
00:50:46.650 --> 00:50:55.394
And you could tell it put the fear of God in them. Russia to that Russia at a press conference, right, with the Russian sanctions. I mean, Russia got cans like, average Russians
610
00:50:56.595 --> 00:51:05.050
611
00:51:05.350 --> 00:51:07.785
612
00:51:08.345 --> 00:51:11.484
is that worth it? Because the US has done that to Cuba.
613
00:51:11.944 --> 00:51:13.805
And the US did that in Afghanistan.
614
00:51:14.664 --> 00:51:19.360
And it the the example that you brought up earlier with this guy was like, no, the Afghan system
615
00:51:19.660 --> 00:51:20.480
is great.
616
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:22.240
And then he fully understand.
617
00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:24.960
Bitcoin is the only thing I mean,
618
00:51:25.405 --> 00:51:28.545
not Bitcoin. It's Bitcoin and the goddamn stable coins. Okay?
619
00:51:30.445 --> 00:51:30.945
And,
620
00:51:31.484 --> 00:51:34.145
those are the only things that still work. Everything else
621
00:51:34.850 --> 00:51:38.550
doesn't work. So I think that it if you look at it from
622
00:51:38.850 --> 00:51:43.910
a macro perspective, I think it was a very historical moment. I don't think Bitcoin failed.
623
00:51:44.295 --> 00:51:45.195
I think people
624
00:51:45.975 --> 00:51:46.475
using
625
00:51:47.015 --> 00:51:47.755
they didn't
626
00:51:48.215 --> 00:51:51.435
use Bitcoin's tools properly to fully exploit
627
00:51:51.800 --> 00:52:00.695
628
00:52:01.075 --> 00:52:02.135
promoters and educators
629
00:52:02.435 --> 00:52:03.095
and builders
630
00:52:03.555 --> 00:52:04.775
if if it requires
631
00:52:05.075 --> 00:52:09.940
it shouldn't require so much education. Like, I have so if you go to dispatch 57
632
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:16.340
in your favorite podcast app, like, I did 2 hour episode following the freedom convoy because I was so
633
00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:18.020
broken by it,
634
00:52:18.785 --> 00:52:20.964
on how to raise Bitcoin crowdfunding
635
00:52:21.345 --> 00:52:22.244
in an authoritarian
636
00:52:22.865 --> 00:52:30.410
environment, an environment where you have an oppressive government that's actively trying to attack you and make your life miserable, close your bank accounts, put a gun to your head, seize your keys,
637
00:52:31.030 --> 00:52:33.450
and go after your donors, like people who are donating.
638
00:52:34.185 --> 00:52:38.285
And I think it was a very comprehensive conversation. I think most people could
639
00:52:39.545 --> 00:52:40.045
potentially
640
00:52:40.425 --> 00:52:46.370
we tried to make it as accessible as possible, and I think most people could go and listen to that and definitely be in, you know,
641
00:52:47.070 --> 00:52:51.890
a 100 x better situation than the Freedom Convoy where they reused addresses and
642
00:52:52.434 --> 00:52:55.815
made a lot of rookie mistakes, filmed the people they were donating to.
643
00:52:56.115 --> 00:52:56.615
But
644
00:52:58.355 --> 00:52:59.414
and I know it's
645
00:52:59.980 --> 00:53:01.440
I know it's still early.
646
00:53:02.300 --> 00:53:06.160
So I I I wanna lower my time preference a little bit and not be,
647
00:53:06.914 --> 00:53:09.654
you know, the angry impatient person in the room.
648
00:53:10.434 --> 00:53:14.775
But I've been I've been publicly talking about Bitcoin for 3 years now, so I get more
649
00:53:15.880 --> 00:53:17.740
grumpy old man as I go.
650
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:19.900
But,
651
00:53:20.360 --> 00:53:21.260
like, it shouldn't
652
00:53:21.640 --> 00:53:24.140
the end case where we're going with Bitcoin,
653
00:53:25.385 --> 00:53:29.645
the ultimate goal should not be that someone has to listen to a 2 hour podcast
654
00:53:30.825 --> 00:53:33.645
before they raise Bitcoin donations in an authoritarian
655
00:53:33.945 --> 00:53:34.445
environment.
656
00:53:34.940 --> 00:53:37.119
Right? Like, that's a failure on
657
00:53:38.780 --> 00:53:44.480
maybe not on Bitcoin, but it's a failure on the the people working on Bitcoin and working around Bitcoin.
658
00:53:44.845 --> 00:53:51.185
659
00:53:51.859 --> 00:53:59.320
working on and building Bitcoin and educating all of those things, not maybe missing the point or missing the memo or not focusing on the right things.
660
00:53:59.859 --> 00:54:01.560
It it's not that there's some, like,
661
00:54:01.925 --> 00:54:04.105
sacrosanct thing that has failed, but,
662
00:54:04.805 --> 00:54:06.905
I I think a lot of it comes down to, like,
663
00:54:07.285 --> 00:54:15.480
are are we still early? Like, we're over a decade in this experiment. Yes. It's code, but we've known about the majority of these issues
664
00:54:15.940 --> 00:54:17.240
for a long time.
665
00:54:17.700 --> 00:54:18.200
Chainalysis
666
00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:19.880
has been around since 2014.
667
00:54:20.695 --> 00:54:28.795
Like One of the most valuable companies in the space. Which is nuts and should tell you a lot about what you need to know about, some of the issues that face Bitcoin.
668
00:54:29.819 --> 00:54:31.420
And I just I don't know. I I
669
00:54:32.220 --> 00:54:37.200
the we're still early thing, I the the same thing hits me for lightning, that it just feels like it kinda feels
670
00:54:37.660 --> 00:54:38.160
copy
671
00:54:38.605 --> 00:54:45.265
because I don't think we're that early. I know. That's why I, like, smile when I say it a little bit. Yeah. I wish there was video so they could've seen that. But it
672
00:54:45.565 --> 00:54:45.645
just
673
00:54:54.645 --> 00:54:56.425
by projects that shall not be named.
674
00:54:57.205 --> 00:54:59.625
675
00:55:00.085 --> 00:55:02.585
so one of my frustration I've
676
00:55:04.220 --> 00:55:05.520
I've been very,
677
00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:12.079
publicly frustrated about some of the priorities in lightning development Mhmm. Lightning businesses.
678
00:55:13.464 --> 00:55:16.924
But these systems, you know, they exist, right, without centralized
679
00:55:17.464 --> 00:55:24.100
authority. And, I mean, Lightning less or so. But with Bitcoin, like, one of the key value props is extremely hard to change.
680
00:55:24.640 --> 00:55:26.400
So you need a lot of
681
00:55:29.184 --> 00:55:37.595
and it's hard to measure what that threshold is. It's it's a rough kind of consensus type of situation, but you you need a lot of motivation and momentum among all stakeholders to get any kind of real changes going on.
682
00:55:38.520 --> 00:55:41.339
Holders to get any kind of real changes going on.
683
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.020
Lightning to a lesser extent. But with lightning specifically,
684
00:55:45.835 --> 00:55:48.494
it just has not existed in an adversarial environment.
685
00:55:49.035 --> 00:55:50.015
Like, I had,
686
00:55:51.914 --> 00:55:54.974
I've had this public lightning node up since 2019.
687
00:55:56.220 --> 00:55:59.200
This this is it's a node that's being used for CITIL Dispatch,
688
00:55:59.900 --> 00:56:03.040
podcasting 2.0. So if you stream stats, it goes to that node.
689
00:56:05.095 --> 00:56:07.275
0 on the node. It's called cildispatch.com,
690
00:56:08.135 --> 00:56:10.635
you know, is the alias. Like, you know, it's it's
691
00:56:11.095 --> 00:56:12.315
it's my note. Ironically,
692
00:56:13.849 --> 00:56:21.950
when they were when the shit corners were saying, like, it's gonna be illegal to run a lightning note, I sent out a drunk tweet during, like, consensus 2020,
693
00:56:23.474 --> 00:56:36.500
in New York, because I was, like, drinking with a bunch of big corners. I was like, ah, damn it. Someone stole my note and put it behind Tor, But they're not closing channels. And they're still keeping fees low. And like a bunch of shit corners were like, quote, tweeting me. They're like, see lightning is a failed experiment.
694
00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:38.420
I was like, okay, guys, but anyway,
695
00:56:39.175 --> 00:56:42.155
I had a buddy. He texted me the other day, and he was like,
696
00:56:43.255 --> 00:56:47.755
I'm doing some lightning privacy work, and I'm trying to, like, probe for private channels.
697
00:56:48.260 --> 00:56:55.480
And he's like, can I probe your node? And I was like, dude, it's a public node. Like, anyone could probe my node. Like, you don't have to ask permission to do this.
698
00:56:55.924 --> 00:57:11.475
And he was like, yeah. But can I? I was like, yeah. You can. And then he was like the next day, he was like, I hope you're fine with the 30 gigs of extra database entries that are in your note. And I was like, oh, that's why you're asking me. I didn't even realize that, like, any random person It's a lot of failed payments. Can just
699
00:57:11.955 --> 00:57:12.455
fucking
700
00:57:12.915 --> 00:57:16.055
completely fill up your database disk space. Yep.
701
00:57:16.435 --> 00:57:19.495
So, like, little so my my the point of the story is,
702
00:57:21.580 --> 00:57:23.040
the point of the story is
703
00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:27.980
is is lightning hasn't gone to that adversarial environment yet. Like, you you basically
704
00:57:28.300 --> 00:57:30.480
to to expect lightning to be robust
705
00:57:31.795 --> 00:57:32.935
without being attacked
706
00:57:33.235 --> 00:57:46.010
is just was never gonna happen. What what needs to happen is and what will eventually happen with all of these systems is they're gonna get attacked like fucking crazy. And the crazy thing to me is that it hasn't really happened yet. Like, if you look at the broader crypto space
707
00:57:46.785 --> 00:57:55.605
I mean, we're talking about chain surveillance. Like, the whole DeFi thing that's happening on ETH where everyone just reuses the same account number. It's all, like, publicly out in the open.
708
00:57:55.985 --> 00:58:06.310
Like, there and there are you hear about tax where, like, certain things are getting drained or certain but there there there hasn't really been, like, state level attacks, really comprehensive attacks.
709
00:58:06.785 --> 00:58:11.925
And these things are just never gonna get robust until these attacks happen. Now the hope is
710
00:58:12.305 --> 00:58:13.765
that the incentive structures
711
00:58:14.110 --> 00:58:16.930
that that Nico was talking about really kick in
712
00:58:17.870 --> 00:58:30.505
once these systems get attacked, and then the improvements are made. But until that happens, everyone's just, you know, on cloud 9 smelling the roses. Yeah. I mean, Lightning's a whole another ballpark because it's also immensely complex compared to
713
00:58:30.860 --> 00:58:35.760
714
00:58:36.060 --> 00:58:50.770
if we don't have great privacy on Bitcoin But it'd be a lot quicker if everyone's nodes start going down. Right? Yeah. No. For sure. And I think that's why I was hoping that the Freedom Convoy thing would be a little bit more of a wake up call to people for the Bitcoin privacy issues because that that was one of the first
715
00:58:51.230 --> 00:58:54.610
clear, large scale Bitcoin sponsored attacks on Bitcoiners.
716
00:58:55.390 --> 00:58:58.770
And it was a situation where people tried to use Bitcoin against the state.
717
00:58:59.105 --> 00:59:07.125
So I think that was one of the first, like, really good adversarial tests outside of Silk Road and some D and M usage and darknet market usage over the years. But,
718
00:59:08.100 --> 00:59:17.214
that was an interesting piece and kinda why I was watching it and screaming on Twitter about them videotaping all of the truckers. But But it wasn't even a sophisticated state too. It's fucking Canada.
719
00:59:17.835 --> 00:59:18.335
720
00:59:19.035 --> 00:59:23.454
look, I'm I'm gonna keep pushing back on you guys. I think that was a massive win. And,
721
00:59:24.099 --> 00:59:31.800
you know, I mentioned earlier that we are in this, like, new type of warfare. And, look, I'm literally, my mic is on a World War 2 book right now.
722
00:59:32.464 --> 00:59:37.425
Kind of state of the studio. If you look at if look. I need a plug mic, I guess.
723
00:59:37.744 --> 00:59:41.350
So if you look at, you know, war in general, right,
724
00:59:41.830 --> 00:59:43.850
World War 2, they they sent Shermans
725
00:59:44.710 --> 00:59:47.605
to the to the beaches of Normandy, but they sunk. Right?
726
00:59:48.165 --> 00:59:52.585
Back in World War 1 with the advent of the machine gun, they would just send cavalry
727
00:59:52.885 --> 00:59:55.065
into the machine guns, and they realize, okay,
728
00:59:56.430 --> 01:00:10.435
perhaps machine gun and horses doesn't work out very well. Let's do trenches. Right? And then they're like, okay, you know what? We need moving metal boxes, also known as tanks. The point that I'm trying to make is that if you see it from, like, a war standpoint,
729
01:00:11.375 --> 01:00:12.115
we won.
730
01:00:12.974 --> 01:00:14.115
Bitcoin itself
731
01:00:14.734 --> 01:00:15.795
did not fail.
732
01:00:16.250 --> 01:00:16.990
It worked.
733
01:00:17.609 --> 01:00:18.910
What failed was,
734
01:00:19.609 --> 01:00:20.750
okay, perhaps,
735
01:00:22.250 --> 01:00:25.630
we shouldn't send the horses straight into machine gun fire.
736
01:00:26.395 --> 01:00:30.815
Perhaps we should take a different approach. And what I mean by that
737
01:00:31.115 --> 01:00:33.375
is I guarantee you next time,
738
01:00:35.210 --> 01:00:36.750
it will be totally different.
739
01:00:37.130 --> 01:00:38.350
But now we know
740
01:00:39.050 --> 01:00:42.750
as the common, you know, the world knows that
741
01:00:43.325 --> 01:00:45.184
you can raise funds,
742
01:00:46.045 --> 01:00:47.265
circumvent the state
743
01:00:47.805 --> 01:00:49.424
if you really want to,
744
01:00:49.724 --> 01:00:53.810
745
01:00:54.670 --> 01:00:58.450
746
01:00:58.825 --> 01:01:07.245
747
01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:12.740
basic civil rights. And this is not even a Bitcoin story. She just wanted basic civil rights for the Uyghurs,
748
01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:17.460
and he ended up in jail. They haven't been able to communicate with him. Right? And
749
01:01:17.944 --> 01:01:24.444
and the the cousin get gets sent to jail because she has a photo of him on her phone, and they find it at a checkpoint. Right? So
750
01:01:25.190 --> 01:01:25.690
I
751
01:01:27.109 --> 01:01:29.690
the the the thing about the freedom convoy is
752
01:01:29.990 --> 01:01:32.170
there was some pain, but there wasn't much,
753
01:01:32.994 --> 01:01:35.175
which could be a very valuable learning
754
01:01:35.555 --> 01:01:36.615
experience without
755
01:01:37.234 --> 01:01:39.095
too much actual pain on people.
756
01:01:39.910 --> 01:01:40.809
But maybe it wasn't even
757
01:01:41.109 --> 01:01:46.730
enough pain. So people just feel like, okay. It was fine because, you know, no one's in a gulag right now.
758
01:01:47.895 --> 01:02:17.299
759
01:02:18.245 --> 01:02:22.025
Obviously, all the ways funds were handled, everything was poor, but
760
01:02:22.645 --> 01:02:31.840
the as far as I know, none of the people who receive funds were able to actually use them to buy anything to fund what they were doing, anything like that, which I would consider as
761
01:02:32.220 --> 01:02:38.115
failure. I mean, yes. It was better, and some funds got into people's hands. But they're a little bit hypocritical there because, like, if
762
01:02:39.215 --> 01:02:40.355
763
01:02:40.735 --> 01:02:49.250
successfully use those funds and we don't know about it, then that would be a success, and we wouldn't know about it. Right? It would, but we would know about it because you can see what's happening on chain.
764
01:02:49.550 --> 01:02:50.130
765
01:02:50.430 --> 01:03:05.710
report that I've seen on it, nobody had moved. Either people had not moved funds or they had been confiscated. Or they had sent There was no in between. Basically. Yeah. So if it has happened where people have actually used those funds effectively, then, yeah, I would consider that a success. And that's really the bar I'd say is, like, was the purpose
766
01:03:06.089 --> 01:03:06.910
of the fundraiser
767
01:03:07.450 --> 01:03:11.475
met, which is to get them funds that they could use to fund their protest? Well,
768
01:03:11.855 --> 01:03:17.395
769
01:03:17.970 --> 01:03:21.910
you could use an alternative monetary network to
770
01:03:22.210 --> 01:03:25.270
raise money. And it actually makes it very difficult
771
01:03:25.970 --> 01:03:27.029
for the state
772
01:03:27.734 --> 01:03:28.955
to see successfully,
773
01:03:29.575 --> 01:03:33.675
especially if you do it right. And I guarantee you that now
774
01:03:34.055 --> 01:03:36.474
that certain Canadians have burnt their fingers,
775
01:03:37.210 --> 01:03:38.190
if that happens
776
01:03:38.570 --> 01:03:42.590
somewhere around the world next time, I guarantee you Bitcoin Twitter will mobilize.
777
01:03:43.290 --> 01:03:44.545
Matt O'Dell will make
778
01:03:44.944 --> 01:03:47.204
will go live on Twitter and be like, guys,
779
01:03:48.224 --> 01:03:50.244
this is exactly what you're gonna do.
780
01:03:50.545 --> 01:03:55.200
Alright? This is Lucille dispatch 57. So we'll we'll, like, Twitter will mobilize
781
01:03:55.819 --> 01:03:57.039
and, you know,
782
01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:05.045
783
01:04:07.585 --> 01:04:11.040
Mhmm. Bitcoin Twitter was really disappointing during it. Bitcoin
784
01:04:11.580 --> 01:04:13.680
Twitter, as soon as the pressure turned up,
785
01:04:14.300 --> 01:04:21.385
everyone fucking disappeared. Forces into machine guns. Like, Seth Seth is, I think, a valuable person in the Bitcoin community. I think he might
786
01:04:21.924 --> 01:04:33.640
push back on that a little bit, but I think he's a very valuable person in the Bitcoin community. He was more outspoken than, like, prominent Bitcoin influencers. Right? They they just all were like, oh, shit. Like, this could be the moment we all get called terrorists.
787
01:04:34.045 --> 01:04:42.145
That was And, like, they come for us. Right? Excited. And I mean, you were very vocal. I remember you being very vocal. I was very vocal. There were people that were vocal,
788
01:04:42.605 --> 01:04:43.105
but
789
01:04:43.580 --> 01:04:46.320
the overwhelming majority of people gave me the opinion
790
01:04:47.100 --> 01:04:53.275
that if my back is against the wall, they're all just gonna let me go to the gulag. Because Like, that's what's gonna happen. They don't understand.
791
01:04:53.575 --> 01:05:00.875
792
01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:04.280
like, you stand your ground here,
793
01:05:04.740 --> 01:05:08.840
or you lose it. And what a lot of people, they have this false illusion,
794
01:05:09.285 --> 01:05:12.105
where it's like, you know what? I'm just gonna let this slide.
795
01:05:12.725 --> 01:05:13.225
And,
796
01:05:14.485 --> 01:05:23.050
you know, I'm just gonna I don't want my life to get complicated. I don't wanna get in trouble. Like, I don't wanna do this, whatever. But I think we're at a crossroads in history
797
01:05:23.750 --> 01:05:26.890
where the fiat system in general has grown these bureaucracies
798
01:05:27.270 --> 01:05:32.295
to such a size. I was actually reading Road to I wasn't reading. I was listening to it.
799
01:05:33.235 --> 01:05:34.135
800
01:05:34.995 --> 01:05:36.535
Are audiobooks of Shaquen?
801
01:05:37.630 --> 01:05:45.090
I like it. I like it, Matt. Not everyone's as hardcore. Well, thank you for clarifying that you were listening. I hate when people say they were reading something and they're just listening. I I buy
802
01:05:45.470 --> 01:05:49.575
803
01:05:50.035 --> 01:05:58.780
I really listened to it. It's kinda the same, but I I I agree. Reading has has more of a Sorry for distracting you. No. It's all good. It's a good comment. It's a good criticism.
804
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:04.859
I just have too much ADHD, but look, I was reading Road to Serfdom and Listening.
805
01:06:06.265 --> 01:06:12.525
Dude, these these bureaucracies and this collectivism has reached such a size that you could even in the US,
806
01:06:12.905 --> 01:06:17.050
where the the founding fathers, man, the way they designed the country
807
01:06:17.590 --> 01:06:22.010
was great, but you could tell the system is being pushed to
808
01:06:22.765 --> 01:06:23.424
its limits.
809
01:06:23.885 --> 01:06:38.530
Right? And this is not only happening in the US, it's happening in Canada, it's happening in Europe, and you have these giant bureaucracies that are trying to control people, man. So I think it reaches a point where you have to say enough is enough. And I think that
810
01:06:39.684 --> 01:06:42.425
in a way I'm privileged because I come from a country
811
01:06:43.444 --> 01:06:44.825
that I saw
812
01:06:45.684 --> 01:06:46.505
what happened.
813
01:06:46.870 --> 01:06:58.355
What the what collectivism did to the society. Venezuela went from one of the wealthiest countries on in South America to literally a failed state in 20 years.
814
01:06:58.895 --> 01:07:06.570
And these people have this false solution in the United States. It can't happen here. Oh, yes. It can happen here. And the way that it happens here
815
01:07:06.950 --> 01:07:08.810
is if you just shut up and say nothing.
816
01:07:09.190 --> 01:07:09.690
So
817
01:07:10.765 --> 01:07:15.665
that's why I was so vocal about it. And I think that if more people are vocal, and this doesn't mean
818
01:07:16.204 --> 01:07:22.890
like breaking the law or anything like you have to color without inside the lines. But if all you have to do is stand up and say something.
819
01:07:23.430 --> 01:07:26.410
In my opinion, that's enough because if enough people do that,
820
01:07:26.795 --> 01:07:28.895
I think we win. That's my opinion.
821
01:07:34.339 --> 01:07:35.160
822
01:07:35.859 --> 01:07:36.359
823
01:07:38.180 --> 01:07:45.565
824
01:07:47.405 --> 01:07:49.185
look. Once again, I just
825
01:07:52.200 --> 01:07:54.700
you know, we have the meme. I'm in it for the tech.
826
01:07:57.175 --> 01:08:11.780
For the revolution, baby. Yeah. I mean, I'm in it for the freedom. I would like to get wealthy in the process as well. Like, I'm not gonna pretend like But it's a secondary aspect, dude. Bitcoin is so awesome, man. Well, I mean, you can't ever You don't have to worry about it. You'll never be wealthy without freedom. So it's a prerequisite
827
01:08:12.160 --> 01:08:15.620
for for wealth, because otherwise, it's it's not your wealth.
828
01:08:17.705 --> 01:08:19.805
The the issue is not
829
01:08:22.185 --> 01:08:25.869
I I I pretty much have faith that we will get there eventually.
830
01:08:27.449 --> 01:08:28.429
That, you know,
831
01:08:28.969 --> 01:08:30.349
the concepts are there.
832
01:08:31.715 --> 01:08:39.255
You know, the tech is possible. We're seeing it all unfold in front of our eyes. You know, the cat's out of the bag, the proverbial cat's out of the bag.
833
01:08:41.070 --> 01:08:47.730
Governments can't help themselves, powerful people can't help themselves. They're gonna keep oppressing people, and people will just naturally push back when they find the need.
834
01:08:48.349 --> 01:08:52.815
The fear to me, and the reason I'm so vocal about these topics
835
01:08:53.514 --> 01:08:55.454
is the pain that happens in between.
836
01:08:55.994 --> 01:08:59.900
And I can see how palpable that pain can be and how brutal it
837
01:09:01.100 --> 01:09:01.760
can be. And
838
01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:06.480
there's an opportunity here to lessen that pain
839
01:09:06.860 --> 01:09:13.204
during that transitionary period. So, like, a perfect example I just keep bringing up examples. A perfect example is I talked to Navalny's team,
840
01:09:15.264 --> 01:09:15.744
opposition
841
01:09:16.065 --> 01:09:17.445
main opposition to Putin,
842
01:09:18.380 --> 01:09:21.600
last year at the HRF event, and they've been raising Bitcoin donations
843
01:09:22.060 --> 01:09:23.200
for for a long time.
844
01:09:23.740 --> 01:09:30.785
They use a static reused address. And I was like, I was like, you have me here with you. Like, can I please just walk you through,
845
01:09:31.325 --> 01:09:45.305
like, just improving this? I'm not like, I don't want you you don't need to be full cypher punk. Like, can we just improve the situation a little bit? And she said to me, kind of echoing what you said about the Canadian Freedom Convoy is, they can stop us on GoFundMe. They can stop us on bank transfers.
846
01:09:45.685 --> 01:09:53.850
This Bitcoin keeps coming through. We don't care that Putin knows how much Bitcoin we have. He can't take it from us. We're outside of the country except for Navalny, who's in jail,
847
01:09:54.230 --> 01:10:00.490
but his whole operation is outside the country now, and or at least the public's facing parts of the the operation.
848
01:10:01.235 --> 01:10:01.675
And,
849
01:10:02.115 --> 01:10:26.295
they can spend it at will. And they and and another aspect was they're like, we know Putin has the capabilities of spying on us from all these other things, which is something I talked about with Seth on on his pod, which is the meme the real meme that stops people from seeking out better privacy is not, oh, I have nothing to hide, so why should I care? It's really, I'm so fucked that there's no improvement that could be made. So they gave me that argument, basically. Right?
850
01:10:26.869 --> 01:10:28.409
And that it worked anyway.
851
01:10:30.389 --> 01:10:37.005
About 4 months ago, 5 months ago, it came out that Binance handed over all the KYC information of all the donors
852
01:10:37.625 --> 01:10:40.364
that donated to that reused address. Right?
853
01:10:41.545 --> 01:10:49.320
That's a shit ton of pain that has gone to all anyone who contributed there from inside Russia who has family inside Russia is completely fucked right now.
854
01:10:50.260 --> 01:11:02.349
And so, like, did Bitcoin succeed in that scenario? Like, Navalny has a Bitcoin. Navalny is able to spend the Bitcoin. He wasn't able to do that through any other financial means. But, like, if a bunch of his supporters and their families are all
855
01:11:03.290 --> 01:11:06.429
being subjugated as a result of that usage of Bitcoin,
856
01:11:06.825 --> 01:11:09.325
857
01:11:10.345 --> 01:11:14.940
858
01:11:15.420 --> 01:11:17.040
you you should still not, like,
859
01:11:17.739 --> 01:11:35.630
860
01:11:36.330 --> 01:11:38.750
use the tools that Bitcoin gives us
861
01:11:39.305 --> 01:11:42.205
in order to avoid those situations, but
862
01:11:42.665 --> 01:11:46.285
the world still hasn't found that out yet. And that's what happened
863
01:11:46.665 --> 01:11:58.155
with the Freedom Convoy. That's what happened with the example with Russia that you're giving me. And I'm gonna kind of circle back to what you said earlier on the show about burning your finger on the stove.
864
01:11:58.535 --> 01:12:01.355
And that's why I use the analogy of the war. Sometimes
865
01:12:02.375 --> 01:12:03.515
in war, unfortunately,
866
01:12:04.280 --> 01:12:15.804
whole battalions get slaughtered. And then the next time the commander's like, okay. Maybe I shouldn't send the horses to the machine guns. Maybe we should build a trench instead. If we could reduce the slaughter Yeah. Wouldn't that be ideal?
867
01:12:16.105 --> 01:12:22.490
Yeah. Horses suck. Let's do tanks. You know, tanks are better. But not land them at d day and have them sink. Yeah. No. That would suck.
868
01:12:22.970 --> 01:12:29.630
That that's a terrible idea. I don't know. I hope these analogies are useful. I like it now. I'll piggyback off that analogy. I mean, I think
869
01:12:30.125 --> 01:12:37.665
870
01:12:38.080 --> 01:12:40.179
the issues with approaches were known,
871
01:12:40.560 --> 01:13:02.920
and then something bad happens. And the the ways to resolve that or ways to prevent that are forgotten, and it just keeps rehappening over and over again. This is true. And I I think that's a good way to look at what has happened in Bitcoin and that we have known about these problems, like the the Navalny thing. Everyone's known you're not supposed to reuse addresses. It's been, like, a decade that we've known that. The whole Ethereum ecosystem uses addresses.
872
01:13:03.380 --> 01:13:14.094
Well, because they don't have addresses per se. They have an account based model rather than UTXO. So they they have more technical reason to reuse addresses because their system is built to reuse addresses. Horribly.
873
01:13:23.875 --> 01:13:28.695
The problem is, and this comes back to what you're saying earlier too, the incentives are not aligned
874
01:13:29.155 --> 01:13:30.695
with privacy within Bitcoin.
875
01:13:31.200 --> 01:13:36.740
The incentives, like, with the the Navalny thing, they can get the bare minimum. They can get donations that are not easily seized
876
01:13:37.120 --> 01:13:48.115
with just posting a static Bitcoin address. It works. They get them. They don't care. But then you have all of the other problems that come with everyone knows how much Bitcoin you've received. Everyone knows how to easily watch what you do with that Bitcoin.
877
01:13:48.790 --> 01:13:49.270
Dusting,
878
01:13:49.750 --> 01:13:51.449
dusting attacks are very simple.
879
01:13:52.150 --> 01:14:08.809
880
01:14:09.429 --> 01:14:12.710
881
01:14:13.190 --> 01:14:18.235
882
01:14:19.175 --> 01:14:21.035
Remember what the Kraken CEO
883
01:14:21.415 --> 01:14:28.270
and Brian Brian Armstrong kinda dipped his toes a little bit, but Jesse Powell that's his name. Right? Mhmm. Jesse Powell. Yes.
884
01:14:28.650 --> 01:14:30.305
I get confused because I'm like Jerome
885
01:14:31.185 --> 01:14:32.405
Powell. Coincidence. Okay.
886
01:14:33.185 --> 01:14:35.365
887
01:14:36.785 --> 01:14:37.285
888
01:14:37.960 --> 01:15:01.610
he said it right. He said it. He's like, Listen, guys, I we can't help you. Because I don't use Kraken if you're doing it. It's like, take take self custody. And then you see the the reaction by the real I'm gonna keep saying it because it's funny. Real Canadian mounted police. Yeah. The mounties. Like, we disguise a problem. You know? And all he said, which is crazy to me, which is crazy. I mean, Brian Armstrong could go fuck himself, but Brian actually did as well to a degree.
889
01:15:02.865 --> 01:15:25.225
890
01:15:26.085 --> 01:15:30.640
891
01:15:31.260 --> 01:15:35.120
But with the Russian thing, they they were really scared that
892
01:15:35.465 --> 01:15:38.285
that their business was gonna get taken down. So they gave,
893
01:15:38.665 --> 01:15:52.500
like, the the Canadian the Coinbase post about the the Russian sanctions, they said, like, everything they do. They went down all the draconian paths of, like, how they control people and surveil people. That was a real I thought that was gonna be another big eye opener, but that's just
894
01:15:53.185 --> 01:16:04.150
895
01:16:04.770 --> 01:16:13.965
the incentive structure for Bitcoin, and not obviously, like, mining that kind I'm not talking that type incentive structure. But with the use of Bitcoin privately generally being disincentivized,
896
01:16:14.265 --> 01:16:16.525
it's gonna cost you time. It's gonna cost you fees.
897
01:16:16.860 --> 01:16:17.520
It's difficult.
898
01:16:18.060 --> 01:16:29.835
That's obviously not to say it's not worth it. It is necessary if you want to use Bitcoin and you want the most freedom you can gain from it. But the incentives are for the opposite. And if we don't use these examples to say,
899
01:16:30.135 --> 01:16:31.035
look at the way
900
01:16:31.495 --> 01:16:41.640
that Bitcoin as a tool was not as successful as it should have been. Maybe we don't say it failed. I don't know we can say it succeeded, but at least was not as successful as it could have or should have been.
901
01:16:42.005 --> 01:16:45.385
We need to figure out how do we leverage that before people forget
902
01:16:45.764 --> 01:17:00.525
into doing the things that we need to do. And I I think, like, obviously, hard fork in Bitcoin, something like that, that's not gonna happen, to be completely honest. But Well, there has to be at least 1 hard fork. Well, yeah, eventually. Maybe we'll do all of the privacy changes in 21 40 or whenever that is.
903
01:17:01.545 --> 01:17:03.885
But in the meantime, we can do things like incentivize
904
01:17:04.425 --> 01:17:17.275
wallets to start in including paying in bit 47 support. We can start to incentivize more wallets to include things like Whirlpool, ways to easily mix funds. We can actually fund the people who are creating tools that are proven to work
905
01:17:17.735 --> 01:17:18.795
for Bitcoin privacy.
906
01:17:19.335 --> 01:17:30.070
We can start to do the other optional things that least will improve the lives of those who wake up in some way. I was talking to the Bitrefill guys. What's the number one wallet that's used to spend Bitcoin at Bitrefill?
907
01:17:33.175 --> 01:17:34.715
908
01:17:35.175 --> 01:17:37.515
Like, number 1 Bitcoin wallet that's used.
909
01:17:39.530 --> 01:17:43.150
I have no idea. Maybe it's Trust Wallet by Binance. Are you serious?
910
01:17:43.770 --> 01:17:48.365
Reused address. Address type. Complete reused address. They don't even do a new.
911
01:17:49.085 --> 01:17:50.705
I think number 2 is blockchain.info.
912
01:17:51.885 --> 01:17:54.545
By the way, freaks, no one uses these wallets that I'm listing.
913
01:17:55.380 --> 01:17:56.760
914
01:17:57.060 --> 01:18:06.175
915
01:18:06.795 --> 01:18:24.215
number 2 was trust. And number 3 was blockchain. Info. But anyway, those were the top 3. I'm positive of that. I think I mentioned But did you see the disconnect of Bitcoin Twitter? Like, Bitcoin Twitter would never recommend any of those wallets. Well, that's what I think I mentioned it earlier about the the this is the part that worried to me is that the custodial aspect of Bitcoin
916
01:18:24.675 --> 01:18:27.015
917
01:18:27.690 --> 01:18:30.190
that they just wanna use the easiest solution,
918
01:18:30.810 --> 01:18:35.310
but they don't understand the trade offs. Like, they have no idea that if you pick
919
01:18:36.855 --> 01:18:39.195
a good Bitcoin wallet, right,
920
01:18:40.295 --> 01:18:43.515
the amount of sovereignty that that would give you versus
921
01:18:44.190 --> 01:18:49.890
these wallets is day and night, and they don't understand that. Because to them, they're just looking at UI, and they're like, this UI
922
01:18:50.510 --> 01:18:55.525
looks better than that one. So to kind of go back to your point, maybe it's a question of making
923
01:18:55.985 --> 01:18:57.045
the more Bitcoin
924
01:18:57.744 --> 01:19:01.710
privacy centric wallets, the UI is better, so that the normies
925
01:19:02.650 --> 01:19:04.270
like that using Better.
926
01:19:04.810 --> 01:19:13.764
927
01:19:14.144 --> 01:19:16.660
being ethical or unethical in the space, I think it's
928
01:19:17.060 --> 01:19:25.400
a a good a good barometer of that is, do they disclose trade offs when Mhmm. They're aware of trade offs? It's one thing if you're ignorant.
929
01:19:26.215 --> 01:19:30.554
That's probably not great if you're trying to educate people and you're ignorant about stuff, but at least,
930
01:19:32.534 --> 01:19:37.320
disclose trade offs when you're aware of trade offs. And I think one of the disconnects in the Bitcoin space,
931
01:19:38.100 --> 01:19:41.320
and it has gotten better, is that you have, like, hardcore wallets
932
01:19:42.265 --> 01:19:46.364
that are very featureful that, you know, the enthusiast crowd use.
933
01:19:47.465 --> 01:19:49.574
And then you have, you know,
934
01:19:50.340 --> 01:19:59.560
super mainstream wallets that are shield to kingdom come and have huge marketing budgets that are horrible wallets, and that's what the majority of people use. Mhmm. And, really,
935
01:20:00.485 --> 01:20:07.945
the thing that would push the needle the most in terms of the most users having a more sovereign experience is a trade off balance in between
936
01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:12.550
that are, you know, maybe not as convenient as the mainstream wallets
937
01:20:13.570 --> 01:20:14.949
and, you know, not as
938
01:20:15.329 --> 01:20:21.785
sovereignty focused as the the hardcore wallets, but a trade off balance in between where they have a decent UX.
939
01:20:22.805 --> 01:20:26.355
They're accessible, but they're also taking the majority of privacy best practices into account by default.
940
01:20:30.930 --> 01:20:33.190
And I'm hoping like, I think we are seeing
941
01:20:33.890 --> 01:20:45.920
more go that way. I mean, that is the samurai approach to a degree. It probably leans a little bit more to the hardcore side. Mhmm. But if you look at the shit that samurai gets, it's mostly based on the trade off they made to try and make it more accessible,
942
01:20:46.640 --> 01:20:50.179
which is that you can use it without your own node on a mobile phone. Yeah.
943
01:20:51.280 --> 01:20:52.900
So that was a that was
944
01:20:53.335 --> 01:21:02.315
a noticeable decision that they made, though. Right? Which was, like, how many more people can actually use this tool if they can just boot it on their mobile phone and have no idea what a fucking note is?
945
01:21:04.040 --> 01:21:06.780
They get skewered on Bitcoin Twitter for that. Right?
946
01:21:07.160 --> 01:21:11.500
And they also, you know, attack people all the time. Can get very aggressive.
947
01:21:12.355 --> 01:21:17.495
But, they're mostly skewered for that technical choice that they made. Yep.
948
01:21:19.235 --> 01:21:21.480
949
01:21:22.680 --> 01:21:27.480
would be nice, but it's difficult because a lot of the things you need to do for privacy on Bitcoin are just not
950
01:21:28.895 --> 01:21:31.795
they're not simple, and a lot of them need interaction.
951
01:21:32.095 --> 01:21:36.755
So it's very difficult to find a middle ground that is privacy reserving beyond just the simple,
952
01:21:37.610 --> 01:21:38.990
like, not reusing addresses,
953
01:21:39.690 --> 01:21:45.070
making sure that your change outputs match the script type of the address you're sending to,
954
01:21:45.530 --> 01:21:48.375
these simple things that can break some of the common heuristics.
955
01:21:49.235 --> 01:21:56.910
Implementing those things is definitely a necessity, but it's hard to get a very simple UX that also preserves privacy on chain and Bitcoin.
956
01:21:57.530 --> 01:21:59.150
957
01:22:01.130 --> 01:22:03.870
958
01:22:04.554 --> 01:22:15.380
in theory, something off chain could be the solution. I mean, maybe you're trying to shield Fediment. I'm not sure. Oh, you read my mind, Seth. How did you know if Seth brought it up, not me?
959
01:22:15.760 --> 01:22:20.180
Matt was just writing FEDIMENT and huge buttons behind him on the whiteboard. Got a whiteboard.
960
01:22:21.895 --> 01:22:41.815
No. I I think Federman could be that trade off balance that I was base I I was setting up Federman. Yeah. The the hard part is you give up custody. So it's a very You don't give up it's not a single custodian. No. But you give up custody. You're just saying I wanna give up custody to a It's a multi party. It's like a multi party customer. Yeah. Right? So it's better than, like,
961
01:22:42.434 --> 01:22:48.350
962
01:22:48.969 --> 01:22:55.150
963
01:22:55.685 --> 01:22:56.185
But
964
01:22:57.204 --> 01:22:57.704
the
965
01:22:58.244 --> 01:23:17.355
trade off that you would get in something like Fediment with Mini Mints is you could use people that you have some reason to trust, whether that's Bitcoin Twitter plebs or someone you know by name. Community members or something. A community member maybe in your local town. Maybe it's people in a meetup that you go to that you work together. Like, there are some interesting ways that you could have
966
01:23:17.895 --> 01:23:24.875
yes. You give up custody. You no longer self custody, but the people who have custody are at least not a nameless corporation that's benefiting off of you.
967
01:23:25.560 --> 01:23:33.020
968
01:23:33.594 --> 01:23:40.415
small community Fedimint wallets that are all interoperable with each other because they support lightning and on chain.
969
01:23:42.700 --> 01:23:43.440
But within
970
01:23:43.980 --> 01:23:56.864
but they all are providing privacy to each other, and they're all handling that. See, the thing is, so custody is a nonstarter for you. Right? But what Nico was saying earlier is, like, one of the main trade offs is people taking custody. So
971
01:23:57.885 --> 01:24:09.200
to me, it's almost a feature, not a bug of that, like they like people could still use the hardcore wallet they wanted to, and they can go the full sovereign route. You know, they can learn how to use coin join, they can learn how to do collaborative
972
01:24:09.745 --> 01:24:25.070
transactions, use lightning with a full node, and get rid of their lightning node after they use a little bit and refresh and go through all the fucking different trade offs. The cool part about Bitcoin is that it is this protocol and this open monetary network that people can choose how they wanna use it. Now
973
01:24:25.530 --> 01:24:26.030
Fedimans
974
01:24:26.410 --> 01:24:27.469
could kind of
975
01:24:28.135 --> 01:24:32.155
be that nice stepping ground for people that are not comfortable with custody because
976
01:24:32.935 --> 01:24:36.395
instead of trusting regulated exchange, you're trusting, you know,
977
01:24:36.980 --> 01:24:45.455
15 community members and, like, a plurality of them need to steal your money or doss you. And, basically, you're you're relying on them for uptime as well,
978
01:24:45.935 --> 01:24:49.635
not just stealing your money, like you need them to make sure the system is running.
979
01:24:51.055 --> 01:24:56.490
So your funds can basically be effectively frozen because you just can't spend them because they they're not online.
980
01:24:58.150 --> 01:25:02.250
But and the result is you get very strong privacy guarantees.
981
01:25:03.030 --> 01:25:04.970
And then you get lower fees,
982
01:25:05.545 --> 01:25:07.085
and better user experience
983
01:25:08.825 --> 01:25:13.805
and potentially easier onboarding than than definitely easier onboarding than self custody.
984
01:25:15.159 --> 01:25:16.540
So it could be,
985
01:25:18.840 --> 01:25:21.420
you know, it it it could be a massive improvement
986
01:25:21.935 --> 01:25:25.635
for the average person using Bitcoin. And if you think about it from,
987
01:25:26.335 --> 01:25:28.195
the Canadian trucker point of view,
988
01:25:30.030 --> 01:25:32.930
Canadian truckers are using a Federman wallet.
989
01:25:33.470 --> 01:25:34.930
And now here's the key.
990
01:25:36.565 --> 01:25:42.025
I think the biggest pain point of I mean, the privacy stuff really was very frustrating.
991
01:25:42.405 --> 01:25:45.385
The biggest pain point of the Canadian truckers to me was that
992
01:25:46.320 --> 01:26:09.780
Bitcoin enables us to be in a situation where you don't have to have a centralized fundraiser. Like, you like, GoFundMe relies on you to have your GoFundMe captain of a freedom convoy that raises all the money and then deploys it. Mhmm. But with Bitcoin, really, the ideal situation should have been that all those truckers were choosing because a lot of them were streaming anyway. They were on Instagram Live and Twitter Live, and they were streaming their faces. While they were doing that, they should have been able to say,
993
01:26:10.235 --> 01:26:15.934
and you can send me money to my wallet here. Now, with a Fedimint that opens up that possibility.
994
01:26:16.635 --> 01:26:18.335
And the question is, okay,
995
01:26:19.510 --> 01:26:22.490
is, you know, is that as state resistant as something like,
996
01:26:23.430 --> 01:26:32.574
you know, Bitcoin as a protocol? No, of course not. But it might be state resistant enough if everyone if anyone anywhere in the world, including NIMs, can
997
01:26:33.035 --> 01:26:35.055
launch these federated mints,
998
01:26:36.030 --> 01:26:37.010
then maybe it's
999
01:26:37.390 --> 01:26:40.610
decentralized enough. Maybe it's censorship resistant enough.
1000
01:26:42.190 --> 01:26:50.645
That's yet to be seen. There's no working product out yet. You know, I don't really like talking about things in theory, but it is they seem very close,
1001
01:26:51.025 --> 01:27:01.114
and they have a good team working on it. So I'm I'm pretty excited about it. But that's the kind of my point is that's the kind of project that I wanna see more of that kind of stuff where it's it's practical
1002
01:27:01.655 --> 01:27:03.675
benefits for average users
1003
01:27:05.014 --> 01:27:13.730
that aren't don't rely on any protocol changes or anything. It's like, okay, these are the tools we have available for us now. People are gonna use the worst tools if you don't provide better tools.
1004
01:27:14.270 --> 01:27:14.770
And,
1005
01:27:15.230 --> 01:27:17.810
you know, it can improve things today.
1006
01:27:18.175 --> 01:27:22.275
Is it gonna be perfect? No. But it can improve things today. So I I personally think
1007
01:27:23.375 --> 01:27:27.715
I personally hope that a year from now, the conversation becomes very different,
1008
01:27:28.870 --> 01:27:29.690
just because
1009
01:27:30.790 --> 01:27:39.515
1010
01:27:40.215 --> 01:27:52.790
a tool for spending. Even if you can self custody and you can do all these things, it it will probably be a lot easier to use something like pediment where you use it as, like, a checking account. Like, you don't put your life savings in there because you are giving up custody, and you should not do that lightly.
1011
01:27:53.365 --> 01:27:53.865
But
1012
01:27:54.405 --> 01:28:11.449
if, obviously, all these things come to fruition, you can use it as a checking account. You you peg in or whatever it would be called to to get in to Fedimint, and then you use those funds to spend, and you just top up when you need to. But, also, obviously, the onboarding tool where you bring people in, and then you teach them about self custody, and it can be a better on ramp
1013
01:28:12.455 --> 01:28:19.995
with people who you trust. And I think a lot of it may have a lot of similarities in kind of how the the privacy tool ecosystem works, where a lot of companies
1014
01:28:20.590 --> 01:28:22.290
bootstrap or exist in
1015
01:28:22.910 --> 01:28:27.570
good jurisdictions that are friendly towards privacy, that have good data laws, that won't be oppressive.
1016
01:28:27.875 --> 01:28:32.935
And we may have to say something similar with something like Fedimint because, I mean, the a big concern for me is still
1017
01:28:33.635 --> 01:28:38.070
there are now less people in control of more funds, and so there's easier pressure points for governments.
1018
01:28:38.449 --> 01:28:39.489
1019
01:28:41.170 --> 01:28:43.590
I've just been obsessed with FedRAMP. And I've, like,
1020
01:28:44.515 --> 01:28:46.855
I mean, I had the fortune of of
1021
01:28:47.475 --> 01:28:49.075
I was in I was in,
1022
01:28:50.515 --> 01:28:56.050
rural Norway, like, all the way above, like, in the Arctic Circle with Obi for 3 days, and
1023
01:28:56.590 --> 01:29:06.764
I I just wouldn't let him not talk about it because that's all I could talk about. But one of the interesting trade offs that they chose to make is that the federation doesn't choose who the lightning providers are. So anyone it's actually
1024
01:29:07.144 --> 01:29:08.284
technically a permissionless
1025
01:29:09.240 --> 01:29:10.780
way of of being LSPs.
1026
01:29:11.400 --> 01:29:14.220
So, like, you could imagine, like, a Fedimint wallet where,
1027
01:29:14.600 --> 01:29:20.165
okay, you have 13 of 15 or 10 of 10 of 14 or something in the federation,
1028
01:29:20.705 --> 01:29:23.925
but then you have 4 different Lightning providers for that whole wallet.
1029
01:29:24.625 --> 01:29:25.685
And, basically,
1030
01:29:26.540 --> 01:29:32.000
the Lightning provider, the person running that node and collecting the fees and running it as a Lightning service provider,
1031
01:29:33.340 --> 01:29:41.875
they're they're trusting the federation to a degree because they're choosing to accept the mint tokens. Mhmm. Right? They're accepting the IOU shit coin.
1032
01:29:42.200 --> 01:29:45.740
Yeah. That is running in there that is technically pegged to Bitcoin.
1033
01:29:46.280 --> 01:29:47.260
But the
1034
01:29:47.720 --> 01:29:48.220
the
1035
01:29:49.000 --> 01:29:49.500
participants
1036
01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:51.100
in the actual Fediment
1037
01:29:51.695 --> 01:29:53.395
aren't trusting the Lightning node.
1038
01:29:54.335 --> 01:30:00.755
And that was an active decision they made because that is a clear pressure point, right, which is you get all these funds in a Fediment wallet
1039
01:30:01.060 --> 01:30:02.600
who's running the Lightning node.
1040
01:30:03.699 --> 01:30:10.360
So it doesn't have to be a federation member? No. You don't even they don't even necessarily have to know who's running the Lightning node. Interesting.
1041
01:30:10.739 --> 01:30:13.224
It just has to be someone who's willing to take
1042
01:30:14.724 --> 01:30:28.460
1043
01:30:29.034 --> 01:30:44.000
but that's very interesting. I I just assumed it would be the Bitcoin that was custody that would be used in the Lightning node, but I guess not if the Lightning service provider can be something The Lightning my understanding is the Lightning service provider can do redemption transactions on chain for the mint tokens to Bitcoin. Mhmm.
1044
01:30:44.315 --> 01:30:48.335
1045
01:30:48.635 --> 01:30:52.495
1046
01:30:52.850 --> 01:30:53.590
of this.
1047
01:30:55.570 --> 01:30:57.830
Wouldn't you say this would still be normalizing
1048
01:30:58.210 --> 01:31:05.864
1049
01:31:09.880 --> 01:31:17.340
Like, you can let you can let the perfect be the enemy of good, at least for, like, short term stuff. Look. At the end of the day, the trade offs need to be made clear.
1050
01:31:17.865 --> 01:31:25.805
Right? Just like Seth said, like, you're giving up custody. You are there. This is a trust minimized system. It's not a trustless system. Right?
1051
01:31:26.850 --> 01:31:30.550
But it's very practical. It's it's it's a cool practical tool.
1052
01:31:30.930 --> 01:31:48.490
1053
01:31:49.750 --> 01:32:04.750
1054
01:32:05.105 --> 01:32:11.525
Well, so, like, it doesn't have I just keep using the term 15. Like, OB thinks, like, small communities will be, like, a 3 or 5
1055
01:32:12.280 --> 01:32:18.540
or something like that. Multi sig. It's essentially a multi sig. The way you can conceptualize it is that it's a multi sig custody.
1056
01:32:19.320 --> 01:32:20.380
1057
01:32:20.795 --> 01:32:23.055
always online, always willing to sign.
1058
01:32:23.435 --> 01:32:46.435
1059
01:32:46.790 --> 01:32:48.409
smaller federation is.
1060
01:32:48.710 --> 01:33:05.455
So, like, you and I and Matt could just start at 2 of 3. I don't know if you wanna do a 2 of 3, but we could start at 2 of 3 Minu Mint, and we could have our own. And no one needs to know that it's even us if we didn't want to, but we probably wanted to want people to know it's us so they trust us. I think you'll have, like, big public ones,
1061
01:33:05.950 --> 01:33:16.875
1062
01:33:17.255 --> 01:33:27.430
end you right where you started? It it's it's certainly No. Because you have privacy from the custodian. So so, I mean, a good example here, it just doesn't work that well as an example because of,
1063
01:33:28.050 --> 01:33:34.625
just most people aren't aware that how it even works. But, like, the Bitcoin Beach wallet, Galloy's wallet Mhmm.
1064
01:33:35.804 --> 01:33:36.304
Is
1065
01:33:36.684 --> 01:33:39.744
most funds are held on chain. That's a community multisig,
1066
01:33:40.210 --> 01:33:42.630
and then they have a lightning node that they run.
1067
01:33:43.090 --> 01:33:46.070
And so the whole is a custodial wallet, but it's
1068
01:33:46.690 --> 01:33:48.790
trust minimized to a degree because
1069
01:33:49.295 --> 01:33:53.635
the majority of funds are held in a multisig, so not a single entity can go and take the funds.
1070
01:33:53.935 --> 01:33:54.435
Now
1071
01:33:55.375 --> 01:34:00.739
the result is a wallet that was extremely easy to use for, you know, tech illiterate Salvadorans.
1072
01:34:02.400 --> 01:34:19.190
And it's been very successful in least terms of adoption. No one's gotten rug pulled yet. Obviously, they could get rug pulled at any time. But the big thing missing there is privacy. Like, the those custodians see every transaction and every balance you make, every balance you have and every transaction you make. With this setup,
1073
01:34:20.210 --> 01:34:25.190
you have privacy from the custodians, and that's more important than just trusting the custodians. I mean, the custodians
1074
01:34:25.895 --> 01:34:32.475
are obviously an easy pain point that, you know, a government can come in and be like, okay. Give us the roles of everyone's transactions.
1075
01:34:33.680 --> 01:35:00.975
1076
01:35:01.675 --> 01:35:14.385
the information about what you've done, who's transaction with who, that kind of thing. So that is the part could be even more important sometimes than the funds, depending on people's start models. Yeah. Especially if you're using it as, like, a checking account where it's like, yeah. I lost $500,
1077
01:35:14.844 --> 01:35:19.585
but they'd know nothing about the transactions I made. They don't know that I donated to Navalny or whatever,
1078
01:35:20.045 --> 01:35:21.264
which is a very important
1079
01:35:21.969 --> 01:35:22.630
piece of
1080
01:35:23.650 --> 01:35:24.150
it.
1081
01:35:25.170 --> 01:35:26.550
1082
01:35:27.170 --> 01:35:37.565
1083
01:35:39.190 --> 01:35:50.495
1084
01:35:50.875 --> 01:35:54.175
And, you know, the windows are gonna get, you know, kind of
1085
01:35:55.675 --> 01:36:05.210
messed up a little bit. The horse is gonna die, and the tank's not gonna care. So it's an in between. That's why I think it's an armored car. I would say maybe it's like
1086
01:36:06.465 --> 01:36:09.045
1087
01:36:10.704 --> 01:36:11.764
Like so so
1088
01:36:12.065 --> 01:36:15.890
let me explain my analogy. Obviously, I'm not the analogy guy here.
1089
01:36:18.210 --> 01:36:21.030
We've talked about it a lot in Bitcoin for a long time,
1090
01:36:21.810 --> 01:36:23.270
which is that
1091
01:36:24.875 --> 01:36:30.415
we're never gonna really have accessible privacy if it costs more and is more difficult,
1092
01:36:31.435 --> 01:36:37.510
to use Bitcoin privately than not. Because it's just incentives. Yeah. Everything in this space is incentives, and it's
1093
01:36:37.810 --> 01:36:42.070
and if you look at most of the brokings in our current society, it's broken incentives.
1094
01:36:43.905 --> 01:36:44.405
So
1095
01:36:45.344 --> 01:36:49.685
with this, you know, if you were just a dumbass user and you were just sending,
1096
01:36:50.440 --> 01:36:52.460
you know, all your funds on chain,
1097
01:36:54.360 --> 01:36:55.659
in the cheapest consolidated
1098
01:36:55.960 --> 01:37:10.320
transaction possible, like this most compact on chain transaction that's horrible for your privacy. Like, every time fees go up on chain, you see, like, all influencer accounts are like, oh, combine all of your UTXOs because fuck privacy. You just wanna have, you know, you wanna have cheaper fees.
1099
01:37:11.980 --> 01:37:25.435
You compare someone doing that, the most naive worst Bitcoin transaction from privacy point of view. You compare them doing it on Federman. They they have a cheaper transaction. They have a faster transaction. They have a more user friendly transaction with no confirmations or anything,
1100
01:37:26.050 --> 01:37:28.230
and they have more private transaction.
1101
01:37:28.770 --> 01:37:30.550
So it actually hits the incentives,
1102
01:37:31.650 --> 01:37:34.550
at least from the user point of view, extremely well.
1103
01:37:35.125 --> 01:37:36.824
And I'm you know, once again,
1104
01:37:37.605 --> 01:37:40.185
jury's out on on how effective
1105
01:37:40.885 --> 01:37:44.580
how, you know, how much these claims will be true and when this stuff
1106
01:37:52.715 --> 01:38:05.040
important enough project that I'm trying to get them out extra developer help. So I by talking about it, it gets them more support there. And I you know, that's why I'm talking about it. But I'm also talking about it because I think it's a good,
1107
01:38:05.840 --> 01:38:14.425
role model of a type of project where they're they're thinking out of the box, and they're using the tools we have today, and they're not expecting some kind of protocol change in Bitcoin that we're never gonna fucking have.
1108
01:38:16.085 --> 01:38:20.585
I understand the the tinted window. Right? Toyota Camry with tinted windows. Accessible privacy.
1109
01:38:25.320 --> 01:38:26.380
Now Anyway, guys,
1110
01:38:27.320 --> 01:38:32.045
we're at the hour and 40 minute mark. Seth has another interview he's gotta do after this.
1111
01:38:33.864 --> 01:38:41.389
I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, and we didn't really know where we're gonna go with it, but I think, Kinda like the no topic chat. Yeah. It was fun.
1112
01:38:43.770 --> 01:38:45.849
I appreciate you guys joining us. I,
1113
01:38:47.275 --> 01:38:53.055
there'll never be a 1st rep in this in this studio again, so you guys are officially the 1st rep in this studio.
1114
01:38:53.835 --> 01:38:57.450
The honor is mine. I'd like to wrap up the show with final thoughts.
1115
01:38:58.470 --> 01:38:59.610
Seth, final thoughts.
1116
01:39:01.110 --> 01:39:04.170
1117
01:39:04.790 --> 01:39:10.795
I think final thought would just be try to try to leverage these adversarial events that Bitcoin's gonna wade into
1118
01:39:11.335 --> 01:39:11.835
as
1119
01:39:12.670 --> 01:39:16.690
fire for you to to work on how you handle Bitcoin, how you approach privacy.
1120
01:39:17.470 --> 01:39:22.824
And then also try to use it to push your favorite wallet, your favorite tool within Bitcoin, your favorite merchant, whoever,
1121
01:39:23.284 --> 01:39:24.985
to think more deeply about
1122
01:39:25.364 --> 01:39:31.699
maximizing the freedom that Bitcoin can bring. And with the way Bitcoin is today, that means going through some hoops to use it properly.
1123
01:39:32.400 --> 01:39:52.090
But, hopefully, with things maybe like Fedimint or other tools, we'll be able to improve that over the long run and give people different sets of trade offs. Like I said, always gonna be trade offs, but different sets of trade offs. So, yeah, don't don't let these events become just kinda memory hold and loss, but use them as incentive for you and incentive for others to to improve and grow and and take on more responsibility.
1124
01:39:52.535 --> 01:39:54.635
1125
01:39:56.455 --> 01:39:59.950
1126
01:40:00.510 --> 01:40:01.890
It's been a long time coming.
1127
01:40:02.270 --> 01:40:13.975
1128
01:40:14.675 --> 01:40:18.710
1129
01:40:20.530 --> 01:40:23.590
That's highly militant. We we have a chance, for freedom.
1130
01:40:24.130 --> 01:40:25.110
Right? And
1131
01:40:26.215 --> 01:40:29.915
it's gonna be casualties. It's it's going to get a whole lot harder.
1132
01:40:30.775 --> 01:40:35.435
So you have to really ask yourself, what are you in this for? Are you in this for just the wealth?
1133
01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:42.860
Are you in this for freeing mankind? Do you want your children to be free? And these are all questions that you have to ask yourself.
1134
01:40:43.445 --> 01:40:45.145
What are you really in this for?
1135
01:40:46.245 --> 01:40:53.550
And I think that if enough people take self custody, if enough people are in this for the freedom, I think we have a really good shot at winning this.
1136
01:40:54.810 --> 01:40:58.270
Just gotta bunker down and, to steal your line.
1137
01:40:58.975 --> 01:41:00.275
Stay humble, Stack Sats.
1138
01:41:00.735 --> 01:41:01.955
1139
01:41:02.735 --> 01:41:07.395
I wanna thank our guests. I wanna thank all the freaks who tuned in and listened live.
1140
01:41:08.110 --> 01:41:11.730
Huge thanks to all the freaks who continue to support the show and keep it ad free.
1141
01:41:12.030 --> 01:41:13.730
Reminder, you can support at cildispatch.com
1142
01:41:14.350 --> 01:41:16.930
or in your favorite podcasting 2.0 app.
1143
01:41:17.655 --> 01:41:27.090
If you don't have stats to spare, consider telling your friends and family to type Zillow Dispatch in their favorite podcast app and press the subscribe button. It does help. I will see you freaks tomorrow
1144
01:41:27.630 --> 01:41:28.130
since
1145
01:41:28.990 --> 01:41:35.250
I left you hanging for 3 weeks. I'm gonna do a back to back dispatches. And tomorrow in the same studio, we're gonna be recording
1146
01:41:36.255 --> 01:41:37.475
with Texas Slim,
1147
01:41:38.175 --> 01:41:40.355
who I guess is Tennessee Slim this week,
1148
01:41:41.135 --> 01:41:41.955
and Carlino
1149
01:41:42.820 --> 01:41:54.453
from IBEX, and Michael Atwood from Oshi. It's gonna be a great conversation on bootstrapping a circular economy. I'm really excited for it. I hope you guys are excited for it. To quote Nico, stay humble, Stack Sats. Cheers.