Jan. 19, 2022
CD51: bitcoin companies keeping lists of bitcoiners and our transaction history with @BTCxZelko, @LaserHodl, @Diverter_NoKYC, and @stephanlivera
EPISODE: 51
BLOCK: 719340
PRICE: 2358 sats per dollar
TOPICS: tradeoffs of kyc bitcoin, bitcoin companies keeping lists of bitcoiners and our transaction history, acquiring bitcoin without providing intimate personal information, personal responsibility
@BTCxZelko: https://twitter.com/BTCxZelko
@LaserHodl: https://twitter.com/LaserHodl
@Diverter_NoKYC: https://twitter.com/Diverter_NoKYC
@stephanlivera: https://twitter.com/stephanlivera
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00:00 - Exclusion from traditional systems of wealth creation
00:12 - Growing inflation and its impact on low-income households
00:52 - Setting the stage for a revolution
06:33 - Understanding KYC and its impact on Bitcoin
19:09 - The trade-offs of KYC and non-KYC
25:03 - The importance of forward privacy in Bitcoin transactions
33:40 - The risks and implications of Bitcoin companies keeping lists of Bitcoiners
44:36 - The philosophical and political aspects of KYC in Bitcoin
48:13 - The gun lobby's red line on a national gun registry
49:01 - The defense distributed and the state department's conflict
50:07 - The importance of self-custody in the Bitcoin ecosystem
01:32:09 - The two options in life: quit or overcome obstacles
01:33:10 - The importance of addressing obstacles and finding solutions
01:34:44 - The easy path vs the hard path in Bitcoin adoption
02:16:33 - Building tools for Bitcoin education and adoption
02:17:42 - Appreciation for the guests and their positions
02:19:55 - Importance of being fully permissionless in Bitcoin
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:29:34 PM
Duration: 8975.308
Channels: 1
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Love Bitcoin ever wondered? Well, it's because they know they're excluded from the country's traditional systems of wealth creation.
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America's economy is closed to them. The ladder has been pulled up and they know it.
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Our elderly political class should care about this. They don't care at all.
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Here's 68 year old Paul Krugman explaining on Twitter that growing inflation is not a big deal. Quote, is there any good reason to believe that inflation hits low income households especially hard, end quote? Well, yes, Paul. There are in fact quite a few good reasons to think that. Like, look around, Dumbo,
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but he hasn't and he won't. Keep in mind, this man once won the Nobel Prize for Economics.
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So we're mocking Paul Krugman, but imagine
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what he sounds like to young people. Imagine how this sounds to a 30 year old, someone still living with roommates, someone who's too poor to get married, too poor to have kids, too poor to start an adult life.
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There are many young Americans in that position.
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If you wanted to set the stage for a revolution, this is exactly the kind of way you would talk, and it's exactly the kind of society you would create. It is deeply unwise.
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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks.
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It's your boy O'Dell here for Citadel dispatch 51.
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Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
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To ring in the new year,
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we got some we got 2 big changes that I wanna let you guys know about ahead of time.
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The first one is this will be the last,
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dispatch
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that is available on the TFTC
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podcast feed. So if you're listening to this on the TFTC podcast feed,
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open up your podcast app, search little dispatch, and press subscribe because that's the only way you will be able to get dispatches going forward. I have a very good lineup
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over the next few weeks,
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that I'm very excited,
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to share with you guys. Some very good discussions are gonna happen.
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The second major change is I have moved the audience chat over to Matrix, a distributed self hosted,
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free and open source
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chat solution,
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that is federated, so you can run your own server, you can connect to our server,
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you can use whatever server you want, and you can communicate that way.
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That chat is located at citadel.chat.
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So if you wanna participate in the live audience conversation going forward, you're gonna wanna go to citadel.chat.
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If you're gonna wanna listen to the podcast feeds going forward, you're gonna have to search CITL dispatch
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in your favorite podcast app.
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If you are commenting through YouTube, Twitter, or Twitch,
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I can see your comments still.
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So I will
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highlight
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key comments, but the main chat is gonna be, in in matrix on sidolil.chat.
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Huge shout out to our supporters.
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Dispatch is a 100%
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audience funded.
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You guys make it possible to keep Dispatch ad free without sponsors and purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussions, so cheers to you. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Font Fountain Podcasts
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and Breeze Wallet.
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It acts like a regular podcast app. You search Zillow Dispatch, you load it up with sats, those sats go straight to my node. You can also support the show through my samurai Pay NIM, also Sparo Wallet compatible now.
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That Pay NIM is Odell
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or through,
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just a normal lightning payment. Both of those are available at cildispatch.com.
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As always,
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this show is livestreamed
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through Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube, and now bitcointv.com
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as well. Bitcointv.com,
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we need to I need to acquire and buy
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a GPU so the transcoding is better, so the quality will be slightly worse on bitcoin tv.com, but you don't have to deal with trackers,
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or ads or anything like that. So,
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trade offs trade offs everywhere, but I am working,
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to get that GPU so the quality will be better.
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This is a
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a conversation that I'm very excited to have.
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We got some great guests here. This is still dispatch 51.
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The topic is Bitcoin companies keeping lists of Bitcoiners in our transaction history.
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It's focused on the trade offs of KYC,
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AML regulations,
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and how they interact with Bitcoin.
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We got some return guests, and we got some new guests. I'm gonna start,
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this introduction with our new guests. We have,
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steamed podcast host and good friend, Stefan Lovera. Stefan, why don't you say hi to the freaks?
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Hello, everyone, and thanks for inviting me.
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Stefan is, he made some time zone sacrifices for us, to be here, so everyone should give him extra props. We appreciate you, Stefan.
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We have
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we have, Laser Huddle here.
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First time on dispatch, but he has been on TFTC with Marty in the past. How's it going, Laser?
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Hey, y'all. Big fan of yours, Odell and the dispatch, and so excited to be on. And and a lot of names on here that I followed for a long time. So this is pretty cool, and thanks for having me.
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Cheers.
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Thank you.
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We have return guest, Diverter. How's it going, Diverter?
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What's happening? Yeah. Glad to be here.
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And we have return guest, BTC Zelco. What's up, Zelco?
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What's going on, man?
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Other than that, I'm pretty good other than the fact that it sounds like Divert is over there eating a sandwich, but, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excited to be a fun talk.
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Awesome.
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So it looks like
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in the live chat that everyone's having issues with bitcoin tv.com.
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What What are you gonna do? We're doing it live.
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So where should we start? I was thinking maybe we should start on
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what is KYC,
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what is its impact on Bitcoin,
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and then take it from there. Who wants to who wants to give that a shot?
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Yeah. Sure. I'll take a go. So KYC stands for know your customer. It relates, generally speaking, to having to give
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specific identity
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information
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to a company or to an individual
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in order
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for them to be able to provide you in general
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it normally is a legal obligation
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given the AML, anti money laundering laws. Now, of course,
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we
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might not agree with those laws that we might wish,
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you know, for market regulation as opposed to government
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regulation, but the impact for
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Bitcoin is, obviously, is that
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and this is a question many of us have all spoken about and explored,
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even the risk of potentially
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capturing of Bitcoin, and does this mean that everyone is bagged and tagged as it were?
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Does that create a risk for the individual
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if their information were to be
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stolen or lost? Or potentially in the future, would that create a target on people's backs
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either
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from the government perspective or from a private
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adversary's
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perspective.
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So I think there are different ways to think about it. Generally speaking, it relates to having to
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provide
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information about yourself, such as your passport or your driver's license,
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and that's for an individual. And then, of course, companies can also be required to
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KYC,
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and that might require things like company formation documents and so on.
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Broadly speaking, we're talking about this idea of having to show some identity
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documents.
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Now in other
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requirements around AML and KYC and sanctions and things like this, companies might be required, and this is normal banks, might be required to do various activities, things like transaction monitoring and so on. So I'm sure we're gonna get into a whole bunch of things like that.
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So
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I think
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the those that's, like, the general idea, and, of course, I guess it's it's it's
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theoretically, are you even in a peer to peer interaction, are you still having to provide some KYC or some in identifying information?
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But, of course, the the question is around who are you KYC ing to and, how much information are you having to give? So I think that's probably
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a, just an overall summary for people. Anyone else wanna know? I think that was a I mean, that was a pretty good summary.
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Just to be clear, KYC
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AML stands for know your customer
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anti money laundering.
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Right. And
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and one thing, though,
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KYC is used colloquially,
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you know, amongst the big corners. It's just basically,
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it's taken on this kinda catch all form now to where,
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anything described where you've where you've provided any sort of personal information or maybe it's not completely anonymous,
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then it's referred to as as KYC or it's not non KYC.
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So I think it's important, especially for the purposes of this discussion, the KYC is an actual procedure. Like, there it is an actual technical procedure that you have to do. You you go through. You provide all the information and details
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to a company that stored that information. So we're not talking about, like,
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if you're if you're mining at home and you're not using the VPN, well, that's not non k y c. Of course, it's non KYC. It's it's not anonymous.
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It may not be, quote, unquote, perfectly private, but it's non KYC. So, that that colloquial use of the term kinda muddies the waters I feel like in a lot of the debate.
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Yeah. And it it's probably also useful to just kind of recognize that
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in a way it's an extension of the fiat system. Right? Like, if you go sign up for a bank account,
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you know,
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you are providing
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legal documentation
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as to your your legal identity.
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So one way another way to think about KYC is it it it kinda starts when you get your paycheck. Like, the minute you have money in a checking account in the fiat system,
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that that that monetary energy is
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is be it has to be accounted for. It's tracked and it's tied to your legal identity.
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And so then the question is, as you go into the Bitcoin
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ecosystem, how far does that extend? And, you know,
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most of the exchanges, a large degree of them,
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continue that tradition. Right? They collect all this legal documentation so that the the Bitcoin that you own is tied to that same legal identity,
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so that they can track from when you got paid in your career all the way through to what assets you own.
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Yeah. I'm just gonna
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quickly double down on what Diverter was saying. You know, sometimes you hear people say,
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well, if you buy something from a merchant,
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you know, then you're you technically
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and they collected your shipping information, then that means you KYC'd yourself.
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And that's that's not, like, what this is referring to. We're talking about that long term collected stored data,
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that ties you down to how much Bitcoin you bought, when you bought it, and,
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and then it assumes, right, that you still maintain that amount of Bitcoin. And that's kinda where I think that this whole conversation starts,
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at least in my opinion.
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So, I mean, this is why I thought it was an interesting place to start is, like, the definition of KYC.
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I
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in other aspects of our lives as Bitcoiners, we tend to make a point of not using
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terminology
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that is decided by other
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entities, oftentimes, that are against Bitcoin or against privacy.
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The the big one that happened recently
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was when they said unhosted wallets instead of self custody. When the regulators put that in writing, they said unhosted wallets. And what were they insinuating there? They were insinuating
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that
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that hosted wallets were the default and unhosted wallets were the
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were the rarity. Even though in Bitcoin,
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it has historically been
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a culture dominated by self custody.
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So
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I actually think that the term KYC in general
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and its attachment to this idea of anti money laundering is we're already arguing on a back foot, if you're talking about,
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individual privacy and sovereignty.
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So I intentionally
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named the episode Bitcoin Companies Keeping Lists of Bitcoiners in Our Transaction History
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because I feel like that is very clear what is happening.
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Yeah. Not, you know, not unlike a bank. You you have these corporations that are collecting,
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I you know, indent little databases of identity,
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documents, and they're forced to hold those. So, you know, you're doing financial
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stuff, and and so just like a bank, these exchanges are collecting that stuff.
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Right. But, you know, my problem
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for and I don't first of all, I wanna say this before we get going here because
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it obviously, you know, we're
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I'm the non KYC guy, and we've got the guys on here that are supposed to be the pro KYC guys, but I don't really believe these guys are one, unquote, pro KYC.
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I don't think anyone here is arguing for KYC. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure nobody's arguing for KYC.
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It's just a matter of whether or not it's an acceptable trade off to achieve adoption as far as I can tell. But having said that, I do wanna make this point from a philosophical standpoint. I don't wanna get on the soapbox about it, but I really do believe,
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KYC is
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at its heart antithetical
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to Bitcoin as a whole.
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KYC is
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is in its very nature an exclusionary
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procedure. It it that is it's what it does. It excludes
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certain people that they don't want to be able to transact from transacting or from being able to do whatever financial procedure you wanna do. It by its very nature, it it it's bound
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to exclude.
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Whereas
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Bitcoin, by its very nature, is is supposed to be an an all inclusive or permissionless
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monetary network. I mean, the the pseudonymity of Bitcoin, I mean, yeah, it helps in a privacy aspect, but really truthfully, that's that's from an inclusion standpoint. It's because anybody could be that,
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arrangement of characters on a screen. That could be anybody, anywhere. So Bitcoin,
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I mean, just from a philosophical standpoint, it's supposed to be this permissionless,
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inclusionary
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monetary network. And the fact that that KYC is being ported over from this legacy financial system and just grafted onto Bitcoin, which is supposed to be a completely different sort of financial system. It's just, I I don't see any other way to say it. It's just antithetical to the entire,
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ethos of Bitcoin in my opinion.
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But, again, I don't wanna I don't wanna soapbox these things. I'm not trying to stand on a philosophical point here because that's very easy argument to make. It's easy to sit up here and be the the, you know, you should the fundamentalist type. The, you know, you should never do this because I get that happens all the time in, like, the privacy communities.
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I don't think that's necessary to make this argument.
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So I don't wanna do that this whole time, but I I I wanna at least put that out there because I I I can't stand the fact that we're supposed to be building this brand new permissionless
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inclusionary system. And what do we do but graft on this horrible exclusionary procedure right on top of it, and it just normalized the whole thing.
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So that's that.
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Yeah. I'd I'd wanna agree
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with diverted there and say that, you know, the
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the the financial surveillance is as antithetical to freedom as,
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dragnet surveillance
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that came in after 911. It completely
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side steps,
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fundamental rights. And and so the fact that you have this broad
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financial surveillance everywhere
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in the banking system and in the ramps that lead it, you know, when you acquire Bitcoin is,
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it's a
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it's not good. It's bad. It's a reality that we have to contend with. The best way to contend with it, I suggest, is to
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work within a framework that it exists and and most of the adoption curve as it stands is entering through KYC. So now what? Right? What do we do? And
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and, I mean, to my to my view, the the the problem seems to be is that,
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this fiat era isn't going over going going away tomorrow. Right? So there to to some degree,
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we have, like, years, maybe decades of this fiat era.
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And
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when you
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disappear,
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wealth out of that fiat,
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system,
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it's kind of like a one way if if you try and move it into no KYC
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wealth. And that's been my kind of view is that, like, okay,
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my mental model is that, like, okay,
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if I put all my wealth in Bitcoin and then my family uses it to to pay on a mortgage later. Right? Like,
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that is
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because I'm working with institutionalized
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corporations on the other end, like, that's gonna be tied to my legal identity because I'm still living in the fiat world part of me. But what I could do and and what I think is interesting is I could build a no KYC stash that was destined for the Bitcoin era. Almost like an emergency stash, a no KYC stash. And
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that's where I I I don't think you're gonna get a lot of pushback from me on on, like, the value of, like, home mining. The value of these exchanges that let people
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build, you know, plan and build an OKYC stash. Where I think it gets kinda messy is most of the world, you know, we're at a couple hundred basis points of adoption. Most of the world as as enters Bitcoin,
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they live in the KYC fiat world. And so they can't move all of their wealth into
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no KYC because it they have liabilities. They pay lenders. They pay people that are KYC. And so
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that's a quandary more than anything that we just have to grapple with. And I don't have a good answer for that. And I guess I'm just curious, you know, what y'all thinking on it. You've been y'all been in this space longer than I have.
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How do you
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grapple with that?
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So let me offer a few thoughts here. I think, of course,
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I'm not gonna say bad things about non KYC. I believe
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if you can acquire non KYC, that's great. I I just think it's a different
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trade off balance for a lot of people,
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and that there are people who are newer in their journey who
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you might try to teach them about the values of privacy, but they might not be interested.
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So
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I see it as
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the broader shifts that we're trying to achieve
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is to take away
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the fiat power of money,
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and I believe that there is a broader shift.
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And just as I would and I have argued,
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Gus, and in articles about the cultural consequences of fiat money,
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I believe that when society switches over to Bitcoin,
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some of the we're going to undo some of those fiat cultural consequences,
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and so from my perspective, I see it as as more people shift over to Bitcoin, and of course, some of those will be non k y c and some of that will be k y c, but I think that will drive fundamental shifts in society, and I believe those
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are generally gonna be better shifts for society.
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I I
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think the aspect around what how much can be done about k y c. I think that's probably the more important question because I just I see this like
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we are living in a world where governments have all this power, and there's only so much that private companies and private individuals
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can do about that.
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I think the
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important aspects are that people can still self custody their coins. I think that's really the key point. Of course,
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then from then, they're able to use CoinJoin and other privacy techniques, but I just see it
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fundamentally that, yes, KYC has a risk,
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but for
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many people,
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they they are better off at least holding some
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than holding none. And so even if it is KYC coin,
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I think in practice, if people end up having a little bit in both worlds,
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then so be it. If they have some KYC and some non KYC,
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then so be it.
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Okay. But I I think that, like,
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the biggest piece, and this is
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a lot of where, like, my frustration on this whole topic kinda comes from is that, like, we have all these people that have such, like, large platforms
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and,
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you know, like, yes, like, we do, like, the acknowledgment of, like, hey. Like, no KYC is good. We should have a KYC escape hatch. We just should have you know, like, try to store some of your stuff in no KYC is just in case.
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Right? But the reality is, like, how how are we pushing all these people in this mass I'm doing quotations because I know it's a mass adoption of Bitcoin. Right? If we are pitching them on censorship resistance,
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right, decentralization,
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all of the, like, core foundations of Bitcoin,
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Right? Instead of, like, being like, well, in the future,
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eventually, hopefully, maybe,
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this KYC won't matter.
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You know, if you were onboarding people the right way, they're gonna see KYC as, like, an immediate threat. They wouldn't want if you're onboarding people with that mindset,
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like, you wouldn't want people to
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to like, you would if you're, like, a person that's, like, I don't want to I want this wealth to be out of the eyes and out of the hands of
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regulators,
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right, or the state.
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No KYC is your route. Like, I've pitched that to older people
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and, who have a lot of money, and they were immediately like, oh, I don't like, how do I get no KYC?
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I don't wanna buy it from Coinbase or anywhere else because,
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like, they're gonna have a track on that, and, eventually, I'm gonna have to pay taxes on it. Right? Like, eventually, they're gonna they're gonna cut they're gonna know. Like, they're not stupid
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despite the fact that, like, you know, people think that boomers are dumb. It's not true. Right? Like, they especially, like, the wealthy ones, like, those are the ones that, like, know They know the reality of this stuff. They know the reality of taxes and how the state can actually just,
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like, steal straight from you. Right? So, you know, you pitch it in that way that no KYC is that important.
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And,
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you know, you wanna opt out of the system, like, no KYC is how you opt out of the system. And, like, there are ways. Like, there are plenty of people who live
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on the on you know, they they got on 0,
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and they make it work in the fiat system, in the fiat world, if you will. You know? So, like, I I feel like we make a lot of excuses,
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but then on top of that, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community?
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Right? Like, what are we doing
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to make no KYC,
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like, acquiring it easier? Because the biggest the biggest pushback that I hear about, like, oh, well, like, no KYC is just is just easier, and people don't wanna do it. Right? Well, like, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community to make it
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easier? Like, we have BISK, and that's great. But, like, what what can we be doing better? And that that should be the conversation, not like, oh, well, this is the easiest thing to do at the time, so let's just go that route. Or, like, everyone just do home mining. Home mining isn't isn't something that every single person has the money to put up and do. Like, I I
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obviously support
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home mining. I think more people should do it, but that's not, like, a reality that every single person can do, you know, with their with their income.
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You know? So
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that that's kinda where, I guess, I step off, and I I start to think about how the no KYC, KYC argument goes. Is, like, what are we peddling
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versus what should we be peddling?
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And what's our responsibility as Bitcoiners to, like,
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you know, to inform people on? It
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it might be a good opportunity to get the to to get the kind of the agreement that,
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forward privacy on settlement is
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absolutely vital. I mean, this idea that anytime you settle to a a party that they're not able to introspect
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introspect your financial business.
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So I think, like
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I I I hope that it goes without saying everyone here wants to see forward privacy
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eventually become across most people's Bitcoin stack the default.
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And and when we talk KYC, we mean backwards looking privacy, which is to say, you know, you essentially have an an exchange that has a list of how much Bitcoin you have, and you're gonna have to account for that,
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whenever you sell it. Right? And and and and so,
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you know, I
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like, I I think it's important to say that no no one everyone here is pro privacy.
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You have a Bitcoin wallet. You should be able to settle to parties and and not have your privacy divulged.
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So I I helped my my parents onboard to Bitcoin because they saw
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not not because they thought it was cool, they were gonna make money, but they saw the groceries,
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the price of groceries raising and it started to scare them. They've seen countries go through hyperinflation
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and and, you know, red book and and this and that.
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Their concern is, like, they don't have so much money that they
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can you know, like, 1, they don't wanna go to, like, El Salvador.
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Right? They wanna stay in in the fiat era in their fiat country. Right? So they're in a KYC country in the US,
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and they, like, they have a cabin that they wanna pay on the mortgage on. So they can't have the SATs leave the fiat system because they have expenses in the fiat system. If they have big stack and no KYC
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and they pay Chase
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Bank with those SATs,
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I mean, you see what I'm saying. Right? You kinda you know, your legal
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person now has
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payment of of,
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to Chase Bank and and so you haven't really disappeared
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any money from accountability. And so this is why, like, I actually think of no KYC as a one way road. Like, you are those sats are destined for the Bitcoin only economy.
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And and for me, that's an argument that it's actually at the end of a Bitcoiner's progression. Like, when you get into Bitcoin, like, you might accidentally buy, like, grayscale. You're buying paper Bitcoin and then you get coached and you're like, wow. I need to hold my Bitcoin. I need to hold my keys. And then eventually, people are like, you know, you should have some no KYC stats because where we're going, we're not gonna, you know, you're you're not gonna need
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where where we're going, you're not gonna need KYC. You're not gonna want it. But until we get there, like, you're not gonna take your no KYC stash and and pay Chase with it. You're not gonna, you know yeah. I understand you can get gift cards. Right? And you can or or whatever. There's there's mechanisms by which you can make purchases,
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for goods. But but any real like, what do you do there? I guess, that's my question. Like, what what would you advise to my parents or in you know, as the rest of the world kinda gets on to Bitcoin, how do we solve that?
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Cash
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money orders? Yeah.
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You can sell you you can sell your Bitcoin,
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and you can turn that around and and use it to buy
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things. It's just not gonna be as convenient as having, like, an in app, you know, you can just instantly send, like, strike or whatever. I don't even know if you're sending Bitcoin, but, you know, it just shows up as whatever it is that you need it to show up as.
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But it's more, like, in no way, shape, or form are the no k y c stats that I've acquired,
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stuck until hyper Bitcoinization or whatever. Like, I've regularly spend Bitcoin.
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I pay my bills in Bitcoin. I may not pay it directly in Bitcoin. I do when I can.
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But when I can't, I hop on. I'll find somebody. I'll sell for cash. I'll use I'll get a money order or whatever I need to do. It's just not as
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convenient,
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I suppose,
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in this current,
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you know, I said, Fiat world.
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But my
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the whole idea here, what I can't quite wrap my mind around is
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this this
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adversarial
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mindset,
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of Bitcoin. And not only the adversarial mindset, but the actual coding of Bitcoin and all the
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the trade offs,
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and things that that were made in Bitcoin's development,
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like, what are we what are we doing that for? Why are we making
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these trade offs? Why can't we just,
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accept a little bit more centralization? It would make things a lot easier. The more centralized your thing yeah. It's it makes you can be a lot faster. You can you can do a whole lot of things, even more privacy. You can get, you know, a lot more private. Just whatever you wanna do if you just trade off these other things, but we're not willing to do that with Bitcoin. We make specific trade offs even though it may be, quote, unquote, slower
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or it whatever.
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And, I mean, the only the only thing I could figure when making these trade offs because,
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specifically, we're trying to make Bitcoin so that it does not rely on anyone's good graces to operate,
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that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. That's that's where we're we're going
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if, in my opinion, Bitcoin is at all successful.
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It's very possible that this k y c data doesn't matter at all ever,
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but in my opinion, the only way that happens is if Bitcoin never becomes an actual threat
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to USD hegemony and and the greater powers at large.
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Like, if if nobody if Bitcoin's not actually a good safe,
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you know, a safety hatch or somewhere that people can opt out of this Panopticon that they're very obviously building and moving towards CBDCs and shit like that.
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If Bitcoin isn't that safe haven, it and it just stays as, like, this this speculative
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asset that goes up and down based off of whatever the Fed decides to do, whether they wanna cut rates or rate whatever they wanna do, Bitcoin goes up or down. If it stays like that and it's not
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this real
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actual opt out escape hash for people, then who gives a shit about the KYC data? Why would they care?
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But if we do actually start challenging their power,
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I don't see a world where
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that just happens
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peacefully and easily, and they just hand over this godlike power of money printing
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without there being some sort of,
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like,
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for lack of a better word, attack
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on the people that are taking this power away from them. And so we we prepare with the coding of Bitcoin so that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. I just don't know why we wouldn't, as Bitcoiners, with our own personal individual stashes, do the same thing and try to make sure that our Bitcoin is able to operate in an adversarial environment no matter
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whether or not they declare it's legal or not.
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And even if, you know, people hold their own keys, you know, we're we can say that holding your own keys is even more important than no k y c. Well, okay.
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But what what are you actually implying there? The implication is that because you hold your own keys, they can't just
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do a blanket 6102 order on the exchanges and take everybody's Bitcoin. Fine. Granted.
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But,
399
00:32:31.215 --> 00:32:40.310
I mean, if they do do that, if they do go towards that aspect, not a ban of Bitcoin, but, say, a ban on self custody, You could still Yep. Quote, unquote own Bitcoin,
400
00:32:40.690 --> 00:32:43.830
but it you're gonna have to custody it with an approved exchange.
401
00:32:44.290 --> 00:32:57.890
Well, if you hold your own keys, they can't just take that from you. So what they're gonna have to coerce you into that. So the implication being as long as you hold your own keys, you're able to resist this coercion. I don't see any way around that. That's what that's why would you would do it.
402
00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:07.145
So why are we not preparing fully? I just don't understand why you would prepare in all these other areas and then hand over your entire identity to purchase
403
00:33:07.445 --> 00:33:07.945
Bitcoin.
404
00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:15.520
I mean, I think I think Diverter really hit the nail on the head here, and I I wanna unpack this as one of the main aspects of this conversation in my opinion,
405
00:33:17.935 --> 00:33:21.395
is the fact that Bitcoin companies, all major Bitcoin companies,
406
00:33:22.495 --> 00:33:27.460
are required by law to keep an ever growing list of Bitcoiners and our transaction history,
407
00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:29.539
share that
408
00:33:29.840 --> 00:33:34.980
information, keep it forever. I mean, they say they keep it for 7 years. It might as well be forever.
409
00:33:35.905 --> 00:33:37.685
You should assume that it's forever.
410
00:33:38.225 --> 00:33:42.405
Is is this an attack on Bitcoin? Is this the first attack on Bitcoin?
411
00:33:43.460 --> 00:33:46.120
Are we going to see this evolve? Are we gonna see
412
00:33:47.059 --> 00:33:48.120
regulated exchanges
413
00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:50.360
put other restrictions on Bitcoin?
414
00:33:50.820 --> 00:33:52.040
Are we gonna see
415
00:33:53.435 --> 00:33:54.895
burdensome tax policy
416
00:33:55.595 --> 00:33:57.695
imposed on people who are
417
00:33:58.075 --> 00:33:59.055
using Bitcoin?
418
00:34:01.020 --> 00:34:03.360
Are we gonna see all of this data
419
00:34:05.500 --> 00:34:06.640
basically weaponized
420
00:34:07.020 --> 00:34:08.160
against Bitcoiners?
421
00:34:08.835 --> 00:34:12.775
And what is, you know, the next 5 years of this type of situation?
422
00:34:13.155 --> 00:34:17.575
And do people that are onboarding onto Bitcoin right now understand
423
00:34:17.875 --> 00:34:21.940
these trade offs they're making? Because I'm pretty sure they're they they aren't.
424
00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:26.484
So let me jump in here. I think one of
425
00:34:27.425 --> 00:34:31.205
the ways to think about this is we're going on this
426
00:34:32.224 --> 00:34:33.125
journey of
427
00:34:33.730 --> 00:34:44.095
trying to help people shift their wealth into the Bitcoin system, and some of those people are not as willing to take all the same steps to go fully non KYC for various reasons, that they
428
00:34:44.954 --> 00:34:48.015
may not be able to access the liquidity, they may not
429
00:34:48.315 --> 00:34:56.480
they may struggle with the UX hurdles and not having somebody to hold their hand while they go through this, of course, we can help our family and friends,
430
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:02.075
but there will be people who are coming through who don't have access to a person who's willing to
431
00:35:02.954 --> 00:35:11.535
spend and spend that time with the non KYC aspect of it, and so I think to your point, adults, so answering your question around what does it look like in the future,
432
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:15.200
it's yes. It's quite possible that we see more and more
433
00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:18.240
regulation come down the line from the government or more
434
00:35:18.540 --> 00:35:19.040
encroachment
435
00:35:19.580 --> 00:35:20.640
in terms of
436
00:35:21.865 --> 00:35:22.765
things like,
437
00:35:24.585 --> 00:35:29.360
let's say the FATF Travel Rule. Now, some of this stuff was in place even before Bitcoin, right?
438
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:31.300
So
439
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:34.580
the laws and things that caused
440
00:35:34.880 --> 00:35:38.260
AML laws, so the Bank Secrecy Act in the US,
441
00:35:38.825 --> 00:35:42.125
organizations like the FATF, the Financial Action Task Force,
442
00:35:43.224 --> 00:35:48.125
these are some of the underlying entities driving this KYC pressure, and these entities
443
00:35:49.450 --> 00:35:54.750
all sort of form a club, and they start bullying each other to do more KYC. And they bully countries
444
00:35:55.530 --> 00:36:01.225
to then say, hey. You are on the blacklist unless you implement new AML laws in your country.
445
00:36:01.845 --> 00:36:09.210
Right? So in Europe, there's AML 5 d, and there's all these different, right, AML laws that they're trying to press sort of ram down our throats.
446
00:36:09.510 --> 00:36:18.255
Now we don't want that, and I believe that's something that could be pushed back at the root cause. If we were to start pushing back against the likes of Fadev
447
00:36:18.715 --> 00:36:19.215
and
448
00:36:19.755 --> 00:36:21.615
to have some of the politicians
449
00:36:23.060 --> 00:36:35.305
aware of that because I I I see this as a multi pronged battle. Right? This is there's people on the on the non k y c only side who are just trying to build that non k y c economy,
450
00:36:35.925 --> 00:36:38.500
and I see it like there will be people who
451
00:36:39.140 --> 00:36:40.360
were trying to push back
452
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:50.315
in the in the white market side, in the in the government side, in the political side. They're going to play that political game, and so I've done episodes about some of the ineffectiveness
453
00:36:50.615 --> 00:36:57.859
of AML laws. I did an episode with Ron Paul talking about the problem of AML laws, that it it's really that's the source of the problem,
454
00:36:58.560 --> 00:37:01.780
and that I think, like, while I accept,
455
00:37:02.695 --> 00:37:08.875
yes, there is a risk that Bitcoin companies are having to keep lists of Bitcoiners and transaction history. That's the legal requirement.
456
00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:11.109
I I wish it weren't so,
457
00:37:11.490 --> 00:37:13.829
but I think one of the ways to
458
00:37:15.730 --> 00:37:23.325
help against that in the longer term is to build up the base of Bitcoin people, of the people who hold Bitcoin. Yes. Many of those people coming in will have KYC.
459
00:37:23.705 --> 00:37:44.160
I wish it wasn't that way, but I think this is the reasonable way because in the future, yes, if there's not enough pushback, yes, I think they are gonna do things like wealth taxes. They might even, potentially, we're seeing them raise flags about things like unrealized capital gains taxes. Right now, if that were to occur, if that were to come to pass, then that would be really, really bad for Bitcoin holders.
460
00:37:44.620 --> 00:37:50.695
And I believe at that point, they'd be you would have probably enough Bitcoiners with enough of a political will
461
00:37:52.615 --> 00:37:54.155
back or to start
462
00:37:55.015 --> 00:37:55.515
doing,
463
00:37:56.615 --> 00:37:57.115
but
464
00:37:57.415 --> 00:38:00.990
those are some of the risks that are potentially coming down the line
465
00:38:01.450 --> 00:38:02.670
if the
466
00:38:03.609 --> 00:38:05.710
I guess that political battle isn't fought.
467
00:38:08.385 --> 00:38:12.405
Yeah. Yeah. I think there there's something to that. Wait, Lazer. One second.
468
00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:14.010
Before
469
00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:18.330
Stefan, you see your your boy, Catan, asked you a question? Yeah. Sure.
470
00:38:18.870 --> 00:38:26.895
If we could push back on governments, Bitcoin would never need to exist. We cannot advocate them to stop printing money. Why would they stop collecting personal information?
471
00:38:27.675 --> 00:38:30.655
Yeah. Look. It's a good question, but I think ultimately so
472
00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:39.440
my answer would be that we can push back on certain aspects of it if there's enough of a political will, if there's enough people
473
00:38:39.885 --> 00:38:44.204
who actually would go to a you know, to try and vote for a person who is
474
00:38:45.484 --> 00:38:49.105
who sees the danger with this. Right? And I'll give you an example. Right? So, you know,
475
00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:51.860
as, Odell says, right, our queen, Cynthia,
476
00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:54.820
has spoken about things like the
477
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.565
the unfairness or the injustice of the reporting threshold
478
00:38:59.865 --> 00:39:00.365
being
479
00:39:00.665 --> 00:39:01.485
down at $600.
480
00:39:02.585 --> 00:39:04.525
And then thing, this is just a general
481
00:39:05.065 --> 00:39:06.285
financial services
482
00:39:06.665 --> 00:39:08.580
KYC thing. They
483
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:09.620
are continually
484
00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:18.025
clamping down, and this is not just a Bitcoin thing. It's just it's just an in general thing. So I think this is the other point I see as well that
485
00:39:18.565 --> 00:39:19.305
I think
486
00:39:20.005 --> 00:39:20.905
it's like
487
00:39:22.164 --> 00:39:28.369
I think some of this is sort of shooting the messenger. Right? It's like where it's almost like you're you're you're blaming
488
00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:33.170
Bitcoin companies when they're trying to help. They're the ones actually trying to help people get onboard to Bitcoin.
489
00:39:33.869 --> 00:39:38.204
Other people that, you know, not there there's other people who are not even
490
00:39:38.585 --> 00:39:45.490
involved in the space at all and not trying to help people get into Bitcoin at all. And I also think how fair is it to expect
491
00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:53.330
these small Bitcoin companies, and especially the Bitcoin only ones, much smaller than the likes of the Coinbase's of the world,
492
00:39:53.635 --> 00:39:59.735
that their ability to even push back on their own is is extremely limited. They are this tiny entity
493
00:40:00.195 --> 00:40:09.785
at risk of basically losing if if they lose their license, they lose their ability to compete, and they lose all, you know, ability to actually play you know, it's ticket to play. If you lose
494
00:40:10.984 --> 00:40:11.724
that license,
495
00:40:12.025 --> 00:40:13.244
you're gone. You're out.
496
00:40:13.865 --> 00:40:20.500
I I think these are some of the ways that people are yeah. Any I'll I'll leave it there. I think someone else wanted to come in.
497
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:34.325
So yeah. Yeah. Just just real quick. Like, the, main exchanges have been around forever. Right? Like, I don't think anyone's coming back, and right now we're saying, like, oh, exchanges, exchanges, exchanges. Like, shooting a messenger. Like, they're they're
498
00:40:35.700 --> 00:40:41.480
exchanges are in it to make money, like, otherwise, they would not be able to operate. That's why,
499
00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.360
you know, it's all about appeasing the government.
500
00:40:44.765 --> 00:40:46.305
And that's ultimately where it's, like,
501
00:40:47.165 --> 00:40:48.305
you know, it's
502
00:40:49.245 --> 00:40:49.745
it's
503
00:40:50.685 --> 00:40:53.185
it's weird when, you know, you see
504
00:40:53.569 --> 00:41:08.775
people who are, like you know, and this isn't just, like, directed at at you guys. It's just in general. You see it all the time, a Bitcoiner is just, like, talking out of 2 sides of their mouth. They're like, we wanna end the state, but I'm gonna, like but KYC is the way to do that. And you're like, by utilizing KYC, those KYC exchanges,
505
00:41:09.155 --> 00:41:23.365
right, have to appease and be boot liquors to the state. Right? Like, their whole thing is that they need to do whatever it is that the state tells them to do in order to play the game. Right? So while you could argue that, oh, well, like, they're trying to do something
506
00:41:23.665 --> 00:41:33.830
to get more Bitcoiners on, and, like, being a Bitcoin only exchange is, like, sure, that's a I mean, it's better than being, you know, a casino or whatever. Sure. But, like, at the end of the day, right,
507
00:41:34.770 --> 00:41:35.270
exchanges
508
00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:36.790
are in it to make money.
509
00:41:37.185 --> 00:41:39.445
Like, that that is their financial like,
510
00:41:39.745 --> 00:42:08.590
they are in it financially. Like, that is why that they're there. Right? Because if they weren't, there's plenty of other things that they could be doing to make this better for Bitcoiners, or do the absolute bare minimum as far as reporting goes, or whatever they could do to prove to Bitcoiners that they are they are doing the very bare minimum, because that, to me, is like the ethos of Bitcoin. The the ethos of Bitcoin is about, you know, being outside of the state, to not be, you know, compliant and not be, you know, regulated
511
00:42:08.890 --> 00:42:30.135
or have restrictions on who you can and cannot transact with. That is why we are censorship resistant. The moment that everything is KYC ed and that we continue to say, oh, it's okay, because eventually, we won't be KYC ed or eventually, the state will die. That's not gonna happen. Like, that's not gonna happen to this state. It's a threat. If we're gonna talk about Bitcoin as what it is supposed to be, which is censorship resistant, peer to peer transactions,
512
00:42:30.595 --> 00:42:32.215
you know, the the digital cash,
513
00:42:32.835 --> 00:42:34.295
that that goes away.
514
00:42:34.595 --> 00:42:51.795
That goes away the moment that it actually becomes a threat to the government. So what do you do? You continue to regulate. If you're the government, you just continue to regulate, regulate, continue to list, keep it going, make restrictions harder and harder as you see it become more and more of a threat. Right? You make more and more laws that are based around these people exactly because
515
00:42:52.095 --> 00:43:09.535
if the majority of Bitcoiners are people that are just in it for number go up or whatever, they don't care about KYC. They don't care about that stuff. Right? They care about their their bags getting pumped. Right? So it comes down to to preaching the ethos and getting people to understand, like, what Bitcoin is about,
516
00:43:10.075 --> 00:43:13.375
right, and how to operate in that Bitcoin world.
517
00:43:13.700 --> 00:43:15.800
Right? It's it's not about just,
518
00:43:17.540 --> 00:43:22.359
it's not about just, like, getting as many Bitcoins on as possible. Like, that that to me is,
519
00:43:23.555 --> 00:43:26.214
that should happen on its own. Right? If Bitcoin
520
00:43:27.075 --> 00:43:30.775
the logic being, right, everyone says Bitcoin is the is revolutionary
521
00:43:31.075 --> 00:43:32.135
money. Right?
522
00:43:32.660 --> 00:43:34.200
If it's revolutionary money,
523
00:43:34.660 --> 00:43:36.680
it will it will adopt itself.
524
00:43:37.220 --> 00:43:40.280
Right? The market will speak for itself. We don't need to pedal
525
00:43:40.925 --> 00:43:41.425
the,
526
00:43:42.445 --> 00:43:49.665
the KYC exchanges to saying the only means. And then the the only other point I was gonna add real quick, the whole self custody off of exchanges
527
00:43:50.340 --> 00:44:06.684
is like a is like a privacy like like, the whole reason that, you know, not your keys, not your coins. Like, I started before the KYC debate. Right? Like, that was like a Mt. Gox. Like, he like, they got how many exchanges got hacked since Mt. Gox? People just lost their coins. Like, that was a different,
528
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:08.340
totally different thing.
529
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:12.260
It didn't have to do with, like, forward privacy of
530
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:17.325
whatever. Like, it it it had to do with people losing their their Bitcoin.
531
00:44:18.105 --> 00:44:21.724
So I just, like, I feel like that was just a point that doesn't need to be,
532
00:44:22.220 --> 00:44:29.200
brought up for whatever reason. But yeah. So that that was I just feel like it depends on how we're how you are looking at Bitcoin
533
00:44:30.115 --> 00:44:32.295
but will shape how you see KYC.
534
00:44:32.755 --> 00:44:33.734
That's my opinion.
535
00:44:36.035 --> 00:44:40.210
Well, sure. Of of course, it does. But like weather or no? It it's still about
536
00:44:41.490 --> 00:44:43.750
go ahead. Go ahead. Because I got a lot of requests.
537
00:44:47.454 --> 00:44:47.954
Sorry.
538
00:44:48.494 --> 00:44:49.875
You're not recording me.
539
00:44:50.255 --> 00:44:51.075
Okay. Whether
540
00:44:51.694 --> 00:44:59.060
whether whether or not we convince new Bitcoiners to hold their own keys or not, I think that's absolutely fundamental. I mean,
541
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:03.460
you know, especially going back to what you're saying about the risk of a of a 6102,
542
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.300
a kind of, like, broad,
543
00:45:06.515 --> 00:45:12.935
dictate that that allows the state to either confiscate Bitcoin or or sort of like a paperification
544
00:45:13.635 --> 00:45:15.789
that we saw with gold. So it's trapped in
545
00:45:16.490 --> 00:45:16.990
regulated
546
00:45:17.369 --> 00:45:17.869
custodians.
547
00:45:18.410 --> 00:45:24.865
Like, that's a real risk and and the you know, what you want is enough Bitcoin
548
00:45:25.165 --> 00:45:26.145
held in
549
00:45:26.605 --> 00:45:29.105
cold storage where people are custodying it themselves
550
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:35.780
that the the unit economics of of the the application of the monopoly on force in that way is fundamentally
551
00:45:36.160 --> 00:45:38.820
inverted. Right? If if nobody holds
552
00:45:39.205 --> 00:45:40.905
Bitcoin holds their own keys,
553
00:45:41.365 --> 00:45:42.825
then you haven't inverted
554
00:45:43.205 --> 00:45:44.165
the the,
555
00:45:44.485 --> 00:45:49.180
application of force there. Right? It's it's very easy to coerce a small number of parties.
556
00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:51.100
To to me, this
557
00:45:51.560 --> 00:45:56.060
it it reminds me of, like, the the firearms issue in the United States. So,
558
00:45:56.945 --> 00:45:59.925
up until recently, most of the world, most of westerners
559
00:46:00.385 --> 00:46:02.325
who didn't understand why Americans
560
00:46:02.945 --> 00:46:15.705
were are allowed to own guns, you know, They're in this place where, like, they're looking at maybe having to scan their biometrics to see if they're, like, able to purchase groceries. Right? But in the US, we don't have these, you know, we don't
561
00:46:16.725 --> 00:46:18.985
broad ownership of firearms, just the specter
562
00:46:19.365 --> 00:46:21.145
of firearms being broadly
563
00:46:21.609 --> 00:46:24.589
owned across the people really does stay the
564
00:46:24.890 --> 00:46:39.740
the ultimate tyranny of the state. Like that has been proven. And of course, in the US, most firearms are KYC. Right? You, like, you provide your info your legal info so they know who has guns. And and, of course, they've tried KYC persecution,
565
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:47.155
but they only can do it at small scale. It's the the the ownership of guns is too broad in the US to do,
566
00:46:47.695 --> 00:46:48.835
you know, nationwide
567
00:46:49.295 --> 00:46:51.715
political persecution. That wouldn't be politically
568
00:46:52.390 --> 00:46:52.890
viable.
569
00:46:53.190 --> 00:46:56.329
And what's funny is now that there's a culture of guns,
570
00:46:57.029 --> 00:47:03.194
be it that they're KYC, but we have a culture of guns in the US. We have this this no KYC
571
00:47:03.494 --> 00:47:03.994
escape,
572
00:47:04.295 --> 00:47:11.570
escape hatch developing where people are basically, they're manufacturing their own firearms, which is it's super geeky and cool.
573
00:47:12.590 --> 00:47:20.395
Now I don't I wouldn't stop people from getting KYC firearms. I would say get it. The more people that had it, the better. That broad ownership really neuters
574
00:47:20.855 --> 00:47:23.355
the ability to do broad KYC persecution.
575
00:47:23.660 --> 00:47:31.119
But I I would encourage gun people to geek out with, like, 3 d printing and stuff. Right? Like, make that escape hatch really
576
00:47:31.704 --> 00:47:47.840
healthy and irreversible. And that's kinda how I feel about Bitcoin. It's like, I don't wanna stop anyone from getting into Bitcoin. I wanna I wanna I want it to be as broad as possible. I wanna help people hold their keys so it eliminates the the paperification and confiscation risk. It makes it politically enviable.
577
00:47:48.265 --> 00:47:59.619
And at the same time, I want enough adoption that they can't do broad KYC persecution because like Stefan was saying, it's it's not that I want KYC. It's that I'm able to reconcile
578
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:01.460
the reality that
579
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.660
there is broad KYC. The adoption curve is entering
580
00:48:05.085 --> 00:48:05.744
through that.
581
00:48:06.045 --> 00:48:09.105
Now what? And I just look at guns as, like, there's a reasonable
582
00:48:09.885 --> 00:48:10.845
analogy there.
583
00:48:11.484 --> 00:48:12.680
What do you think about that?
584
00:48:13.640 --> 00:48:14.040
Well,
585
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:15.339
I would say
586
00:48:15.640 --> 00:48:16.940
the one absolute
587
00:48:17.240 --> 00:48:18.619
red line that the
588
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.980
gun lobby or whatever has always drawn
589
00:48:22.295 --> 00:48:23.915
is on a national gun registry.
590
00:48:24.295 --> 00:48:29.035
And it's the one line they absolutely will not allow to be crossed. Now the second amendment,
591
00:48:29.550 --> 00:48:34.210
you know, as written, I mean, as far as I could tell, all gun laws are infringements.
592
00:48:35.070 --> 00:48:36.690
So every gun law is unconstitutional
593
00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:38.369
as far as I can tell.
594
00:48:39.415 --> 00:48:44.475
But the one single place that all of all the compromises of of all the Californication
595
00:48:45.095 --> 00:48:50.619
of, you know, gun ownership, and you you restricted this and restrict that, that all these were accepted
596
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:58.775
and compromised and compromised and compromised until we got to the National Gun Registry. And that's a hard red line, and they will not accept it.
597
00:48:59.075 --> 00:49:03.655
And I think there is definitely a lesson in that. There's also a lesson in
598
00:49:04.040 --> 00:49:06.680
the 3 gun printing community and,
599
00:49:07.080 --> 00:49:08.700
the the defense distributed,
600
00:49:09.240 --> 00:49:10.300
the the Cody Wilson,
601
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:12.060
their outfit when
602
00:49:12.744 --> 00:49:15.805
they started posting these files and stuff online, and the state department,
603
00:49:16.345 --> 00:49:17.724
came after them. Now
604
00:49:18.185 --> 00:49:20.925
the state department ended up backing down quietly.
605
00:49:21.660 --> 00:49:23.520
They ended up backing down from from
606
00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:27.760
what they were trying to do. They backed down quietly. They quietly passed,
607
00:49:28.060 --> 00:49:29.120
the the these
608
00:49:29.535 --> 00:49:38.755
this regulation off until, the commerce department, I believe. And what the commerce department did was swiftly turn around and write the laws exactly as how
609
00:49:39.069 --> 00:49:45.490
Defense Distributed was doing their website. They wrote the law around how the okay. The way they're doing, it's legal.
610
00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:48.745
And, as far as I could tell, the only way that
611
00:49:50.085 --> 00:49:54.505
that result ended up that way is not because of political good graces,
612
00:49:55.030 --> 00:49:56.970
It's because they couldn't win,
613
00:49:57.510 --> 00:49:59.930
and they knew that they can't win.
614
00:50:00.310 --> 00:50:02.650
Now the problem with only,
615
00:50:03.485 --> 00:50:06.065
self custody, and self custody is absolutely
616
00:50:06.445 --> 00:50:06.945
paramount.
617
00:50:07.245 --> 00:50:09.425
Don't at all for a second get that twisted,
618
00:50:09.965 --> 00:50:21.359
because even in the Mt. Gox days and all that, yes, sure. It was about keeping exchanges for being hacked, but it's, from day 1, as far as the trade offs of Bitcoin goes, this has always been about surviving an adversarial environment,
619
00:50:21.665 --> 00:50:30.165
period. Point blank. That's what this whole thing is about. Because if it can't survive an adversarial environment, then we're at liberty reserve again or whatever else.
620
00:50:31.410 --> 00:50:34.790
So every trade off has been for that. And so then here we come,
621
00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:48.600
and they can't brute force attack this thing. They can't just do all these things that they want and shut it down like Liberty Liberty Reserve. They can't go get the centralized server. So what can they do? They slowly strangle it by just grafting on this piece of legacy
622
00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:51.480
crap that we know doesn't work.
623
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:55.880
Everyone knows that it doesn't work. It's been proven that it doesn't work, especially
624
00:50:56.325 --> 00:51:02.905
for the people that are most often targeted with it, then your smaller players. The the the rich people, they do what they want.
625
00:51:03.340 --> 00:51:18.605
So they just graph this on so that now this is our attack vector. And the good thing about this attack vector is it doesn't even have to look like one. It's it's it's welcoming. You can do whatever you want with your Bitcoin. All you gotta do is fill out all this information. Now
626
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:24.260
the gun community knows very well registration leads to confiscation. And, yes, as
627
00:51:24.640 --> 00:51:26.740
guns are initially purchased legally,
628
00:51:27.655 --> 00:51:31.835
speaking, of course, there's a background check procedure and all that stuff that happens.
629
00:51:32.455 --> 00:51:37.150
But it's also there there is a the the hard line has been drawn about
630
00:51:37.450 --> 00:51:42.030
tracking transfers of guns. Those those guns can be transferred legally,
631
00:51:42.905 --> 00:51:48.605
and there is no national gun registry that actually says this is what's happened to it. So
632
00:51:49.385 --> 00:51:53.190
what I think is is the problem here is I feel like
633
00:51:54.530 --> 00:51:59.270
I feel like people get way too much credit for being able to resist.
634
00:51:59.635 --> 00:52:00.755
That's what I feel like.
635
00:52:02.434 --> 00:52:07.015
I said I was gonna blast him a couple times on this episode. I might as well go ahead and get started now.
636
00:52:07.569 --> 00:52:12.549
I'm not so sure that I want just everybody holding Bitcoin right now. They're they're welcome to.
637
00:52:13.170 --> 00:52:16.309
I I would've I would've sure. Go ahead. Get you some.
638
00:52:17.045 --> 00:52:19.225
But I'd I'm not interested in
639
00:52:20.005 --> 00:52:21.305
in Bitcoin for grandma.
640
00:52:21.765 --> 00:52:28.799
Grandma better be super based or have a super based son or grandson that that teaches her how to do this stuff because
641
00:52:29.660 --> 00:52:36.555
we don't send grandmas out to fight our fights for us. And we haven't had our fight yet. And it seems like everybody's
642
00:52:36.855 --> 00:52:40.555
playing this game as if we've already won, as if Bitcoin is inevitable.
643
00:52:41.040 --> 00:52:42.500
But what have we really done?
644
00:52:43.520 --> 00:52:47.700
There there are a couple places around the globe where people are escaping their hyperinflation
645
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:49.220
of the currencies, and
646
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.105
believe me, it's tremendous. I'd love to see it.
647
00:52:53.445 --> 00:53:01.460
But we're does that's not the United States. That's not the world reserve currency that's being escaped. That's not people finding an escape route out of
648
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.140
the USD hegemony. That's something entirely different.
649
00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:10.425
And money, the power to print money is something entirely different than than
650
00:53:11.045 --> 00:53:12.585
anything else in the world.
651
00:53:13.125 --> 00:53:28.435
Because as I'm sure we all would agree, the the ability to to print money on a whim essentially funds this whole clown world that we run-in. And so if something actually starts to begin to siphon away that power from them, I don't
652
00:53:28.735 --> 00:53:35.155
for for the life of me, I can't see how that happens. I don't see some sort of, like, flash crash death
653
00:53:35.590 --> 00:53:42.250
of the legacy system. I I just don't see how we get from point a of we're taking all their power
654
00:53:42.665 --> 00:53:47.005
to point c of we're we're in a a hyper Bitcoinization
655
00:53:47.385 --> 00:53:51.085
type world without the big ass fight in point b.
656
00:53:51.640 --> 00:53:55.180
And I feel like the people fighting the no KYC fight
657
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:56.460
are our trench
658
00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:03.695
trench warfare guys. They're we're digging the trenches, and and we're fighting our fight. We're preparing for our fight to come.
659
00:54:04.075 --> 00:54:12.180
And and I sometimes it feels to me like the well, if we just accept the k y c, I feel like you're in no man's land right now. You're in between the trenches.
660
00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:20.525
I I don't understand why all these trade offs are made to survive an adversarial environment all the way down to the point of the individual
661
00:54:21.705 --> 00:54:24.365
being able to resist because I promise you,
662
00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:35.905
if an order was to come down of a self custody ban, just that, not a ban on Bitcoin because I don't think that'll ever happen, But just a ban on p to p transacting or self custody or whatever,
663
00:54:36.285 --> 00:54:37.505
from a legal standpoint.
664
00:54:38.125 --> 00:54:42.980
People that have never KYC before in their life will be turning their coins in.
665
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:49.380
People will will will trip over each other to tell on their neighbor because they complied and their neighbor didn't.
666
00:54:49.785 --> 00:54:54.445
Like, the amount of compliance that we've seen in 2020, 2021, and now into 2022,
667
00:54:54.745 --> 00:55:03.050
I don't see how you have seen this world and how people react and still think that there would be any sort of, like, actual resistance
668
00:55:03.350 --> 00:55:03.850
if
669
00:55:04.310 --> 00:55:14.765
if the actual holders of the Bitcoin are just any old Joe Schmo and not somebody that's actually got into this thing understanding that I might be looking at a deadly fight coming in the future.
670
00:55:15.510 --> 00:55:21.210
And so I I I want to see people get on it, but not at the expense of of,
671
00:55:21.589 --> 00:55:29.760
you know, having to hand over their entire identity to do so. I don't think it's necessary. I really don't. I don't think adoption has failed to, to this point.
672
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:32.580
You know, we've went from 0 to a $1,000,000,000,000
673
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:33.940
asset without
674
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:39.505
having, quote, unquote, mass adoption. I don't understand where the failures are. I I feel like
675
00:55:39.904 --> 00:55:41.924
there's plenty of stuff that we've accomplished
676
00:55:42.545 --> 00:55:48.484
that that now this is their attack vector because we've cordoned off all the other areas of Bitcoin
677
00:55:48.785 --> 00:55:50.359
appropriately as we should,
678
00:55:50.660 --> 00:55:56.920
and that we've left the back door open. And it just it it it irritates me to no end to to
679
00:55:57.315 --> 00:55:58.535
see people that have
680
00:55:59.155 --> 00:56:01.575
likely never felt the weight of the state
681
00:56:02.115 --> 00:56:08.920
crushing down on them because it is a crushing feeling. Everything I need to know about Bitcoin, I learned in prison. And people will tell
682
00:56:09.380 --> 00:56:18.234
and people will comply because they're scared they're scared of losing their their freedom, their families, their money, their everything. They will comply. I promise you.
683
00:56:18.535 --> 00:56:23.915
And I feel like we have an ability now to get people like even the people on this panel
684
00:56:24.510 --> 00:56:26.450
that are willing to dig in,
685
00:56:26.750 --> 00:56:36.244
to absolutely dig their heels in and know this is this is not happening and fight through this fight. But it makes you not only willing, but it makes you able
686
00:56:36.625 --> 00:56:42.640
if you don't give over your whole identity to do so. I know you're willing, but I need you to be able as well.
687
00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:46.960
Like, you know I've I've granted long enough. In in a broader sense,
688
00:56:47.660 --> 00:56:48.480
it's it's
689
00:56:48.795 --> 00:56:56.734
I I think we should give more credence to the weight of political entrenchment. I mean, the political the the politically entrenched,
690
00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:59.760
firearm culture in the US has stayed
691
00:57:00.060 --> 00:57:03.920
the absolute tyranny of this COVID imperialism. Like, it Yeah. I would disagree.
692
00:57:04.380 --> 00:57:31.715
You could be in town to not see it at all. And and so why wouldn't we want Bitcoin to become politically entrenched? You already have senators and governors. You already have grandmas. You know, they're not trying to escape the fate. They're trying to defend themselves from inflation. You have Tucker Carlson talking about it. I don't think sailors are going to be carted off to a black site. Right? Bitcoin's legal property. So I want political entrenchment, broad political entrenchment. I want it to become an election issue,
693
00:57:32.170 --> 00:57:58.160
where the republicans say, we'll take the other side of that. And how How broad does it fit the national issue. Tell me. How broad does it need to be? How broad I mean, we just saw a vaccine mandate just tried to attempt to be shoved down on literally half the entire population. I don't know what politically untenable means these days. As far as I could tell, the only way something is politically untenable is if it's within your own party. Like, there is no line the quote unquote other side will not cross,
694
00:57:59.265 --> 00:58:04.065
to and I don't I don't see how I mean, this is something that I would actually likely,
695
00:58:05.505 --> 00:58:14.180
combine the side. They they would be willing to combine forces because everyone can agree that it's important that the United States has a stranglehold
696
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:23.454
on this, economy and on the US dollar. Like, we can't allow that to go away. Everyone can agree with that. Everybody can get on board with that. We have to be
697
00:58:23.755 --> 00:58:24.200
the
698
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.859
intransigent minority, and we can accomplish
699
00:58:27.640 --> 00:58:45.990
so much just being an intransigent minority. We don't need the whole point of these trade offs is to not need them to be, you know, politically aligned with us. It's great if they are, but I'm not begging for them because we've we've built the stuff to not have to. That's why it's the way it is. I that's what I don't understand.
700
00:58:46.610 --> 00:58:50.070
Yeah. Like, just and just to be clear. Right? Like, you have
701
00:58:50.610 --> 00:58:51.110
firearms,
702
00:58:52.015 --> 00:58:52.515
which
703
00:58:52.815 --> 00:58:57.715
are meant for self protection and everything else, which regulation has been
704
00:58:58.335 --> 00:59:00.675
steadily increasing over time, which
705
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:04.820
that right there in itself for Americans, like, that should be a sign.
706
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:08.420
That should be your warning of how regulation can happen.
707
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:09.540
Right? Like,
708
00:59:09.885 --> 00:59:11.984
they don't need to outright ban guns.
709
00:59:12.444 --> 00:59:21.420
Right? They don't. They can make they can make it so unattainable for you to do it that that you they get to select who basically gets to own guns.
710
00:59:21.720 --> 00:59:27.660
So I guess, for the last 2 years, we're the greatest years in firearm purchases that we've ever seen in you. Agreed.
711
00:59:28.025 --> 00:59:32.605
They're doing the exact opposite thing if if what they wanna do is restrict gun ownership.
712
00:59:33.145 --> 00:59:34.925
Right. But you say that, like,
713
00:59:35.250 --> 00:59:37.990
as of So now do money printing. Now do money printing.
714
00:59:38.690 --> 00:59:43.190
Right? Like But that's not the same thing. Right? Like, owning, like, buying ammunition.
715
00:59:43.845 --> 00:59:51.225
Right? Maintaining your training status. Like like, you can't just, like, go out and just buy guns and then be, like, okay. I'm ready to fight the state. You're not.
716
00:59:51.600 --> 00:59:57.540
You need to train. You need to go shoot. You need to practice, like like, all of those things, and that's why they know. I don't need to ban guns.
717
00:59:58.080 --> 01:00:05.155
Right? I'll make it It's about defending families. It's not about them fighting the state. We're making the nation more expensive. I'm just saying that looking at how
718
01:00:05.455 --> 01:00:06.195
the slow,
719
01:00:06.815 --> 01:00:08.435
the slow and steady regulation
720
01:00:09.150 --> 01:00:30.120
and increasing, like, regulation on firearms is a great example of why we should be worried. So we can say, yeah. Like, increase over 2 years. That's cool. That's because people are afraid, which is good. Right? Inflation should scare people in the Bitcoin. Yes. But, like, you have to think about the regulation on that side, and you're never gonna see. And on a a different note, you're never gonna see the establishment
721
01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:31.480
government,
722
01:00:32.260 --> 01:00:37.195
the current status quo that we have. It doesn't matter who's in who's present. It doesn't matter who's there.
723
01:00:37.495 --> 01:00:37.995
Right?
724
01:00:38.295 --> 01:00:43.835
Like, we're we're not going to see a day where people who come into power in the fiat system
725
01:00:44.369 --> 01:00:47.910
and are willing to just fight for a non fiat system.
726
01:00:48.289 --> 01:00:55.295
Like, they like, that we're beginning to see it. I think we're beginning to see it on the right that you you have politicians taking up Bitcoin,
727
01:00:55.755 --> 01:00:56.815
the Bitcoin banner.
728
01:00:57.595 --> 01:01:01.430
They haven't done anything. It's easy to pander. Like, they they pander,
729
01:01:01.890 --> 01:01:08.390
and that's easy. It's it's like it's like saying, like, oh, we believe like, how many times have we heard them say, like, oh, yeah. We're against censorship
730
01:01:08.865 --> 01:01:10.565
in, in the big tech space.
731
01:01:10.865 --> 01:01:26.570
Nothing happens. Nothing changes. It's a talking point. So, like, until something happens, then then I'll be convinced. Right? I don't wanna Well, I'm not gonna You don't wanna rely on this thing in order for Bitcoin to be successful. That's really what it comes What you are describing with no KYC is is essentially having people
732
01:01:26.915 --> 01:01:28.455
vanish their wealth and live
733
01:01:29.315 --> 01:01:39.030
away from the fiat checks and balances. I think that's a fine story to tell people as build an escape hatch and it's an emergency fund in case the state goes pathological.
734
01:01:39.650 --> 01:01:48.585
That is a broad message. We could tell that to the 100 of millions of Bitcoiners that come online. But but people are they're not trying to defeat the state. They're trying to
735
01:01:48.885 --> 01:02:14.490
preserve their time and and and defend them their families against inflation. That's the same rule with gun violence. They're not trying to join a militia and defeat the state. They're trying to defend their families. So I'm just saying as a matter of a onboarding progression, you wouldn't start with defeat the state. You say, yes, you can defend your family from inflation. You should hold the keys. You should buy firearms. When we all do it, power dynamics change to the state. It doesn't have unlimited
736
01:02:15.350 --> 01:02:23.155
access to our time, to our bodies. Right? And that's the point. I'm just I'm merely speaking to the network effects of political entrenchment.
737
01:02:23.935 --> 01:02:24.595
It worked.
738
01:02:25.190 --> 01:02:25.690
It's
739
01:02:26.230 --> 01:02:27.050
got yeah.
740
01:02:27.590 --> 01:02:30.470
I well, I'm just I I don't think you're wrong that that,
741
01:02:31.750 --> 01:02:35.535
this this message of protecting your family gets inflation is is,
742
01:02:35.835 --> 01:02:41.935
you you know, is more resounding to to more people than it is to, you know, let's destroy the state. It's, I completely
743
01:02:43.520 --> 01:02:50.500
acknowledge that. The here's the problem as far as I could tell with that is because when you get people like a sailor
744
01:02:51.455 --> 01:02:55.935
in this situation and I'm just using him. I don't mean him specifically because
745
01:02:56.415 --> 01:02:58.115
listen. Here here's the thing.
746
01:02:58.490 --> 01:02:58.990
KYC
747
01:03:00.170 --> 01:03:04.030
okay. Fine. There's different aspects of Bitcoin because
748
01:03:04.330 --> 01:03:08.825
many, many, many people in this world do not view Bitcoin as a peer to peer permissionless,
749
01:03:09.845 --> 01:03:15.145
the payments network. What they view it as is quite frankly a speculative asset, something that they can trade,
750
01:03:15.549 --> 01:03:23.089
There's something that they can maybe, you know, just a a a store of value, and there is no real transaction. They're not transacting. They don't care to transact.
751
01:03:23.704 --> 01:03:36.930
All they're trying to protect is their USD purchasing power, and I get that. Those people will likely go through KYC because who gives a shit? Because as you've, I think, correctly noted, they're just trying to protect their families from inflation.
752
01:03:37.390 --> 01:03:44.515
Now, the problem though here is that if you get so many of those that are only protecting against inflation,
753
01:03:44.895 --> 01:03:52.400
so that all we're doing is really just k y c n so we can hold this thing and precept our purchasing power, Nobody's guarding the transaction part of Bitcoin,
754
01:03:52.700 --> 01:03:55.440
the permissionless part of peer to peer transacting.
755
01:03:55.740 --> 01:04:06.715
And my fear is that as much as I do believe Saylor would defend Bitcoin's right to be legal as a store of value, I don't think he would put up one piece one of iota of a fight,
756
01:04:07.370 --> 01:04:09.870
really, truly over its peer to peer,
757
01:04:10.330 --> 01:04:23.315
you know, transaction ability outside of government regulation. I don't think he would at all. Now you might be able to make the argument to him that if you lose that peer to peer transacting ability, that it may affect his number go up situation.
758
01:04:24.015 --> 01:04:24.515
Possible.
759
01:04:25.010 --> 01:04:35.905
But the problem is it if we dig so many people in this, I'm just protecting against inflation, then, I mean, who actually does need to transact with Bitcoin? Who's actually transacting?
760
01:04:36.445 --> 01:04:45.980
As far as I could tell, the only people that would actually need to transact with Bitcoin in a way that is not regulated by the government, well, I mean, they must be criminals or dissidents.
761
01:04:46.359 --> 01:04:48.220
Why else would they want to transact
762
01:04:48.520 --> 01:05:00.815
without being regulated? So I don't fear Does an El Salvador fit in this? Does the El Salvador fit in this thought, though? Like, you you know, you have these Not at all. Jurisdictions coming online that are okay. Tell me about that.
763
01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:04.810
Not at all. It's a it's a government instituted. They've they've
764
01:05:05.670 --> 01:05:11.714
if you get now now this is actually a pretty good example because you've got a this top down Bitcoin adoption
765
01:05:12.095 --> 01:05:21.069
through El Salvador, through the government that they're just dumping onto onto people, whatever it is, $30 worth of Bitcoin, whatever. Now it's legal to to transact with Bitcoin.
766
01:05:21.849 --> 01:05:22.349
But
767
01:05:22.809 --> 01:05:24.829
if we get that audience
768
01:05:25.130 --> 01:05:25.630
there
769
01:05:26.145 --> 01:05:32.645
now to actually understand what Bitcoin is, because as you've, I think, correctly noted, it's hard to deny
770
01:05:32.950 --> 01:05:44.735
that the vast majority of adoption as it happens right now comes through k y c initially. And that's generally because most people don't understand what the hell Bitcoin is when they first buy it. I know I didn't. I thought it was a stock.
771
01:05:45.675 --> 01:05:52.309
I didn't know what I had. But the day that I felt like I kinda understood what Bitcoin was, I immediately
772
01:05:52.609 --> 01:06:00.265
began trying to figure out how I could sever my identity from it. Now if we can get that same exact community in El Salvador
773
01:06:00.725 --> 01:06:01.385
to understand
774
01:06:01.925 --> 01:06:08.890
that this Bitcoin thing really is powerful and it really does give you the power back instead of these oligarchs and,
775
01:06:09.589 --> 01:06:19.815
all these people elites ruling the world, it really does give you individual power back, then I guarantee you they'll be they'll they'll be ready to take that once they've understood this.
776
01:06:20.195 --> 01:06:27.960
It it the no KYC is what allows them to actually have the power and not be acting in a permissioned way. Like, otherwise,
777
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:30.119
I'm just making the transactions
778
01:06:30.420 --> 01:06:33.880
that whoever says to make. And I don't understand how
779
01:06:34.984 --> 01:06:39.005
the problem with, as I see it, with mass adoption, quote, unquote,
780
01:06:39.865 --> 01:06:47.540
quite frankly, is is custody. That's where you run into a problem with mass adoption. That's why I'm not I'm not this mass adoption guy that that,
781
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:52.635
tries to get as many people onboarded as quickly as I can. I don't think that's a good,
782
01:06:52.955 --> 01:06:54.735
good strategy simply because
783
01:06:55.755 --> 01:06:56.415
the masses
784
01:06:56.715 --> 01:07:01.570
and and I'm sorry. I will not have my mind changed on it. The quote, unquote masses
785
01:07:01.950 --> 01:07:10.345
will not ever hold their own keys. You might be able to get an uncle gym type scenario where you hold your keys for your family, but the vast majority
786
01:07:10.645 --> 01:07:17.369
in a mass adoption type scenario, I don't see any other way around it than they would hold their keys with a trusted third party. So
787
01:07:17.910 --> 01:07:18.730
I feel like
788
01:07:19.190 --> 01:07:33.195
we can get to that point, but to get to that point, we need to get through this fight first. Like, there's no I don't see any reason why anyone would put their flag down, politically even, and stand up for the right
789
01:07:33.530 --> 01:07:34.270
to transact
790
01:07:34.890 --> 01:07:41.630
outside of government regulations with Bitcoin in a permissionless I don't understand where that where how that gets here politically.
791
01:07:41.994 --> 01:07:43.134
Now to transact,
792
01:07:43.515 --> 01:07:52.450
sure. But not to do so in a purely peer to peer fashion outside of regulation. I don't understand how anybody tries to make that case to get elected. I don't see it.
793
01:07:56.830 --> 01:07:57.890
Is that the 6102
794
01:07:58.510 --> 01:08:02.205
account from, Twitter, that really iconic account that disappeared
795
01:08:02.585 --> 01:08:03.405
in this chat?
796
01:08:03.705 --> 01:08:11.760
Yeah. It is. Yeah. That's yeah. Yes. I love that account. This is this is his show. This is his show. I created one of the reasons
797
01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:17.545
one of the reasons I created Dispatch was so that he could participate without doxing his voice.
798
01:08:18.405 --> 01:08:20.165
Ever, yeah, ever forget when,
799
01:08:20.805 --> 01:08:26.820
Odell had him on, and I had to do the voice over for him. No. No. Lavera had had 6102
800
01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:29.219
on, and I was 6102's voice.
801
01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:32.820
Yeah. You're right. Right. 6102 made a very good point,
802
01:08:34.065 --> 01:08:39.284
that I feel like hasn't been properly highlighted here, which is that KYC isn't just about the risk of the state.
803
01:08:39.665 --> 01:08:44.300
The company is collecting the info, and and the state are incapable of keeping the information safe.
804
01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:49.420
Once it's recorded at registration, it's inevitable that it will eventually be accessed by criminals,
805
01:08:49.885 --> 01:08:52.865
which is it's an absolutely crucial point here because
806
01:08:53.405 --> 01:08:59.105
the whole the whole excuse that is used for KYC AML regulation and these
807
01:08:59.700 --> 01:09:02.920
rapidly growing list of Bitcoiners in our transaction history
808
01:09:03.220 --> 01:09:05.080
is that it stops criminal activity.
809
01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:08.920
But criminals are just either buying KYC data,
810
01:09:10.405 --> 01:09:12.185
or they're they're stealing it.
811
01:09:12.725 --> 01:09:18.745
They they there's literally there's markets that are enabled by Bitcoin that allow them to to pay
812
01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:21.040
underprivileged people $40,
813
01:09:21.420 --> 01:09:23.040
a $100 worth of Bitcoin
814
01:09:23.420 --> 01:09:30.785
to go KYC on Binance for them so that they can get through those measures. But it's honest citizens that are getting fucked by
815
01:09:31.165 --> 01:09:37.580
it. They don't want an escape hatch. Christine Lagarde, if there's escape hatch, they'll use it. And that you know, it's
816
01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:40.480
folks think that I'm, you know, I'm against these no KYC,
817
01:09:41.900 --> 01:09:46.320
methods. No. I think, you know, it's absolutely fundamental. We have a healthy and irreversible
818
01:09:46.780 --> 01:09:54.225
escape hatch that's growing. I just I I I can't follow the logic of how we get it to the beginning of the bit Bitcoin progression. Like,
819
01:09:54.820 --> 01:09:59.000
the the fundamental constraint that once I have a bunch of no KYC stats, I can't
820
01:09:59.540 --> 01:10:00.020
I can't,
821
01:10:00.420 --> 01:10:12.570
interact with the KYC world anymore. That's a hard thing that's a big pill to swallow for for, you know, for most of the world. Right? But we I don't I I don't understand this point though. I mean, there's like like I said,
822
01:10:13.130 --> 01:10:27.105
hell, the the the samurai wallet guys been living on Bitcoin since, what, 2013, 14? Like, they've got mortgages and car payments and, like, it's not as if the this that assumption would would mean that only Bitcoin could be spent.
823
01:10:27.405 --> 01:10:39.340
But all of your wealth is KYC when you earn it. So if you have, you know, money orders showing up, you know, at at banks to pay for this and that, it you know, that's a that's a very easily interrogatable
824
01:10:39.719 --> 01:10:50.489
paper trail that any investigation would surface your so in the same way, you're gonna have to account where did that wealth came from. We see that you amassed wealth through your career in the KYC world. You held it in dollars.
825
01:10:50.869 --> 01:10:52.650
Okay. Now you're paying for assets.
826
01:10:53.989 --> 01:10:54.389
Where
827
01:10:54.949 --> 01:10:59.435
talk to us about in between. And and so all I'm getting at is, okay, I have a emergency
828
01:10:59.815 --> 01:11:00.315
stash,
829
01:11:00.695 --> 01:11:04.555
so that my family could flee if if if the state becomes pathological.
830
01:11:04.990 --> 01:11:08.530
We could go to, like, an El Salvador. It would be treated as money there.
831
01:11:08.910 --> 01:11:19.925
That would be really awesome and I hope more countries join. But I'm not going to pay my mortgage with those with that emergency stash because I don't want to all of a sudden have my legal name tied
832
01:11:20.330 --> 01:11:20.830
to,
833
01:11:21.290 --> 01:11:23.710
funds coming from this gray area. Right?
834
01:11:24.170 --> 01:11:28.635
That is that's not risk free. That's a different shaped risk. And so
835
01:11:29.675 --> 01:11:32.974
Listen. I'll give you I I I I would even grant you, like,
836
01:11:34.074 --> 01:11:35.215
if we're talking about
837
01:11:35.594 --> 01:11:39.310
some major purchase, like, you're gonna buy a house with cash,
838
01:11:40.490 --> 01:11:53.315
you know, obviously, you're gonna set up some red flags. But when we're talking about, like, paying a mortgage bill or, you know, which is what I see so often talked about or even making, you know, down payments of even even if we're talking, you know, 10,000, $15,000,
839
01:11:54.490 --> 01:11:55.210
like, those
840
01:11:55.690 --> 01:11:58.750
this is not, like, end of the world. You're busted.
841
01:11:59.850 --> 01:12:06.905
There's no point in having no KYC. I mean, sell the Bitcoin and do what you need to do with the fiat. Like, if we're living in both worlds still,
842
01:12:08.165 --> 01:12:15.450
then just do that. And if we're not living in both worlds still, if if this, you know, fiat world ends,
843
01:12:15.830 --> 01:12:30.875
and now, you know, we're we're in this Bitcoin era with only no KYC sets, I mean, I would I would I would just be shocked to find that that, I would still encounter the same exact problems of having to account for funds if we've already transitioned.
844
01:12:31.330 --> 01:12:32.790
So I don't understand really
845
01:12:33.490 --> 01:12:45.605
again, like I said, granted, if you're gonna buy a a a quarter or half a 1000000, a $1,000,000 home, no. You're not exactly gonna go sell your Bitcoin and and then walk up with cash and pay like that. I'll grant you that.
846
01:12:46.465 --> 01:12:52.310
But still, that doesn't mean you would, first of all, have to dox all of your non KYC stash
847
01:12:52.610 --> 01:12:57.830
or secondly, that regular everyday payments and activities can't be done with
848
01:12:58.625 --> 01:13:01.685
no KYC stats. I mean, it's done it's done regularly.
849
01:13:02.545 --> 01:13:11.850
Yeah. It's your it's your payroll one thing while I was thinking about it because that really just hit on me, but this the no KYC has a I mean, I'm sorry. KYC procedure has a very,
850
01:13:12.925 --> 01:13:16.425
strong tie to, like, the vaccine for me because the
851
01:13:17.005 --> 01:13:24.300
they both they both don't at all do what they're supposed to do, but everybody is being forced into doing it. You know what I mean? Well, I mean,
852
01:13:24.760 --> 01:13:29.740
Diverter, that's that's the point. Right? Like, it's it's it's kind of insane, you know.
853
01:13:30.905 --> 01:13:34.364
Most Bitcoiners seem to agree that that vaccine mandates
854
01:13:34.665 --> 01:13:41.370
are absolutely ridiculous that you walk into a bar or a restaurant or something, and that private business is required to take your vaccine
855
01:13:42.310 --> 01:13:44.730
your vaccine information, your medical information,
856
01:13:45.750 --> 01:13:47.770
your your private personal information.
857
01:13:48.150 --> 01:13:53.435
But everyone just turns a blind eye at at Bitcoin companies requiring all this information.
858
01:13:54.295 --> 01:13:55.755
I just don't see how,
859
01:13:56.070 --> 01:14:02.890
like, there there's plenty of companies that don't do that, but the problem is there's no money in creating another biz or,
860
01:14:03.565 --> 01:14:20.100
you know, another huddle holder or whatever, another peer to peer exchange where, you know, you can attempt to be more censorship resistant and offer people an onboarding into Bitcoin without having to do KYC. There's no money there. The money's in the shitcoin casino, and you can't have the shitcoin casino unless you have the KYC.
861
01:14:20.505 --> 01:14:29.965
That just so happens that if you also do those things, then you've got a nice stash of KYC that you can onboard tons of people through a Coinbase or a Kraken or whatever it is.
862
01:14:30.590 --> 01:14:45.665
So, you know, it all comes back. It's not as if, like, you know, this this just naturally progressed and Bitcoiners were searching out for a better regulatory standard. It's no. Like, people wanted to make exchanges so that they could become rich. They did.
863
01:14:46.285 --> 01:14:48.705
We followed because that's what the government.
864
01:14:49.130 --> 01:14:51.950
That's that that is the path of least resistance.
865
01:14:52.330 --> 01:15:13.830
And I feel like it's so obvious to me there's a reason that that's the path of least resistance. We always see them try to coerce and push and nudge people to do whether it's through psyops or regulations or whatever to do what is least damaging to the state. And so quite obviously, the road to KYC exchanges has been left wide open,
866
01:15:14.395 --> 01:15:15.455
with very little,
867
01:15:16.395 --> 01:15:23.820
you know, problems or pressure until they try to do something to step outside of it. And then the United States is all over them regardless of where they're at
868
01:15:24.460 --> 01:15:28.000
in the world. So, you know, I just don't see how it's any different that
869
01:15:28.540 --> 01:15:46.550
we all see of obviously, the KYC doesn't work. Everybody agrees. It's it's it's plain as day. It's pointless then to mandate for everyone to do this KYC. If it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then it's pointless. So what is the point? The same as the vaccine. The point is the compliance.
870
01:15:47.010 --> 01:15:50.790
The cruelty is the point. The point is to be able to make people
871
01:15:51.205 --> 01:15:55.545
be or seek your permission in order to do what you're allowed to do. Otherwise,
872
01:15:55.925 --> 01:16:01.920
if that's not the way that it's done, then you might go off and get yourself some natural immunity, and then we can't control you.
873
01:16:02.460 --> 01:16:03.260
And I just
874
01:16:03.900 --> 01:16:05.280
the the parallels are there.
875
01:16:05.755 --> 01:16:09.055
Yeah. Okay. So let me add a couple of things here. So I think,
876
01:16:09.515 --> 01:16:12.975
again, everyone on this panel is agreeing here that
877
01:16:13.460 --> 01:16:15.560
AML laws are a bad thing for society.
878
01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:27.115
It's it's more just about how do we best deal with that reality. That's that's really what this is about as I see it. I mean, there are obviously trade offs with these things. Right? If you want to acquire non KYC,
879
01:16:27.495 --> 01:16:33.500
you might not be able to acquire as much as you want to. Right? It's probably true even for me
880
01:16:34.120 --> 01:16:43.335
that I might not have as many stats if I hadn't gone through KYC for at least a portion of my stack. Now, of course, I also have non KYC coins,
881
01:16:44.195 --> 01:16:44.695
and
882
01:16:45.315 --> 01:16:45.815
that's
883
01:16:46.275 --> 01:16:54.930
one aspect of it. But I think the other point I just wanted to add in as well is that there was a bit of discussion, and I think Diverter and just in general, this is kind of the
884
01:16:55.405 --> 01:16:59.965
attack of of the idea of, see, mass adoption is not the way. And you know what? Maybe it's it's not
885
01:17:00.685 --> 01:17:03.025
but it's it's worthwhile thinking about this. Consider,
886
01:17:03.340 --> 01:17:07.440
would Bitcoin be at the prices now without the existence of the KYC exchanges?
887
01:17:07.820 --> 01:17:31.915
And now you could also say, look. That's an issue. I would rather have Bitcoin price be lower and have more hardcore people, and fine. That that could be the case. But I think let's point out because as you were saying, you were saying, well, look, Bitcoin is a $1,000,000,000,000 market. Well, what I'm saying is I don't think it would be it it might not be at that level if it weren't for the existence of these companies that, unfortunately, yes, they have comply with the with the government laws of their own
888
01:17:32.375 --> 01:17:50.205
national jurisdiction. But the point, as I said then, is maybe the point really is about trying to focus the adoption towards the quote, unquote, remnant. I think it's it's those people who are actually gonna try to fight this. Right? And so many of those people are Bitcoin people. They are the same kinds of people who are trying, at least, to push back against the hysteria
889
01:17:50.665 --> 01:17:54.364
and the other sort of COVID restriction stuff that's going on.
890
01:17:55.610 --> 01:17:57.710
But the fact that the restrictions
891
01:17:58.170 --> 01:18:17.679
still exist, I mean, is that the fault of the people who are trying to push back? They're at least trying. So I see this as there'll be a lot of people who are who want to get in, and they can't necessarily buy the same size that they would like to if if if they were gonna try to buy or, you know, purchase or acquire that same stack, non KYC,
892
01:18:18.060 --> 01:18:19.360
and they want in. So
893
01:18:20.060 --> 01:18:22.159
what do you what do you prefer to do?
894
01:18:22.525 --> 01:18:23.585
I I I do,
895
01:18:24.605 --> 01:18:25.905
I'll grant you that,
896
01:18:28.285 --> 01:18:30.785
coming into trying to make an extraordinarily
897
01:18:31.085 --> 01:18:31.985
large purchase,
898
01:18:32.500 --> 01:18:33.160
for example,
899
01:18:34.260 --> 01:18:37.780
right off the bat without doing KYC is obviously much,
900
01:18:38.260 --> 01:18:56.170
more difficult than it is to say, you know, get in slower dollar cost average, whatever you wanna call it, in, in a non KYC fashion. I I would then, you know, obviously, I would point to the peer to peer or the OTC type markets. It still could be done. It definitely would not be as easy.
901
01:18:56.725 --> 01:19:06.200
As far as the point of whether or not we would be here without these regulated exchanges, I mean, it's a hard point to argue, I guess, for or against that. I I guess, you know, the world may never know.
902
01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:07.420
Other than
903
01:19:08.040 --> 01:19:08.860
I would say
904
01:19:09.240 --> 01:19:10.680
it's hard for me to find,
905
01:19:11.960 --> 01:19:18.655
a, quote, unquote, black market type good, in the world that it's white market counterpart is less expensive.
906
01:19:20.155 --> 01:19:29.160
So I I don't know whether or not the price would be where it's at now. I I can't say. It may, it may not. But I do agree with you on your point about
907
01:19:30.100 --> 01:19:35.705
focusing adoption, and that's more of what I was trying to talk about earlier. I'm not trying
908
01:19:36.005 --> 01:19:41.305
to necessarily turn anyone away from adopting. It's more of a focus on adopting
909
01:19:41.770 --> 01:19:45.230
in such a way that we are better able
910
01:19:45.610 --> 01:19:46.090
to,
911
01:19:46.969 --> 01:19:51.469
you know, resist and be able to work whether or not they want us to or not.
912
01:19:51.995 --> 01:19:56.095
So I do think that's important, and, you know, this is where I get into what,
913
01:19:56.555 --> 01:19:59.535
Zelco talked about earlier and people with their audience.
914
01:20:00.890 --> 01:20:12.485
Because there's a lot to really say here. I mean, listen, in this world, you've got you've got leaders and you've got followers and you've got, you know, fighters and you've got engineers and builders. You've got all these different type of people, and we've got them all in Bitcoin.
915
01:20:12.864 --> 01:20:14.405
We've got them all in this panel.
916
01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:27.295
Matt is obviously a leader. Now now he tells people not to trust him, and he knows people trust him. He knows he's a leader. He's taken on that responsibility because he wants to lead. Now now the difference between,
917
01:20:27.835 --> 01:20:31.920
what I would call a good leader and and a selfish type leader is
918
01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:33.060
Matt
919
01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:34.980
gets his excitement
920
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:39.620
from seeing other people do the things that he's led them towards.
921
01:20:40.145 --> 01:20:40.645
Not
922
01:20:40.945 --> 01:20:58.085
he doesn't get his excitement from being known as the guy that guided him there. He gets his excitement from seeing people actually get there. And that's a key distinction, I think. And that's why when we're talking about your audience, Stefan, like, you talk to a lot of people. You've got, you know,
923
01:20:58.625 --> 01:21:02.324
tons of followers on Twitter. You've got a huge podcast. You've got a very broad,
924
01:21:02.784 --> 01:21:15.150
podcast. You talk about all different kinds of things. So I wouldn't expect you necessarily to be constantly railing about, no k y c and and and, to everybody. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit with your audience.
925
01:21:15.755 --> 01:21:16.255
Zelco,
926
01:21:16.795 --> 01:21:20.415
he doesn't really do Twitter that much. Zelco is what I would call a builder.
927
01:21:20.955 --> 01:21:22.929
Zelco is building the stuff that we
928
01:21:23.809 --> 01:21:25.989
or or the people that are trying to be the leaders,
929
01:21:26.849 --> 01:21:35.835
are trying to lead people towards the bridges that Zelco has built. So he does he doesn't really he doesn't really count in more ways than one. That's true. But
930
01:21:36.534 --> 01:21:37.355
but but,
931
01:21:37.895 --> 01:21:40.074
you know, now this is where I get into
932
01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:41.940
to laser huddle. And,
933
01:21:42.480 --> 01:21:49.460
again, I we've talked before this. We've talked well, I'm sure we'll talk after. And, you know, all this is with the utmost respect.
934
01:21:50.055 --> 01:21:53.195
But when we come to LaserHollow, I feel like
935
01:21:53.815 --> 01:21:58.715
your audience is a sovereign audience. Like, that's who you've got. You've got
936
01:21:59.120 --> 01:22:01.540
you you've come up with your your
937
01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:04.740
great reset takes that people have really taken to.
938
01:22:05.360 --> 01:22:14.820
You've got an audience of willing people that are that are ready to listen to you because they see you want to be a leader. You've stepped up in a leadership role and you want it.
939
01:22:15.699 --> 01:22:20.119
And and that's that's admirable. I wanna see it. But the problem then is
940
01:22:20.420 --> 01:22:23.639
your audience, I feel like they're the sovereign individual.
941
01:22:24.165 --> 01:22:27.225
They're the people that recognize the great reset that sees
942
01:22:27.605 --> 01:22:34.190
all these problems and like you said, protecting their families from inflation and and and and and basically just an air of protection
943
01:22:34.650 --> 01:22:36.510
around them and their loved ones.
944
01:22:36.889 --> 01:22:37.389
So
945
01:22:37.690 --> 01:22:39.255
when your audience is
946
01:22:39.655 --> 01:22:41.675
virtually all this sovereign
947
01:22:41.975 --> 01:22:48.715
remnant type, for lack of a better word, I just don't understand why you wouldn't specifically tailor
948
01:22:49.240 --> 01:22:49.740
a
949
01:22:50.120 --> 01:22:52.460
more resistant path to them. Because
950
01:22:53.160 --> 01:22:57.420
once people get to that point of I recognize the sovereignty,
951
01:22:59.735 --> 01:23:21.365
once you get there, like, it's very easy to get you to, okay. Now let's do all this no KYC stuff. There's no need to go through the k y c procedures. I feel like you've got them right there. And if you could just lead your audience the rest of the way, like, I feel like they're ready to listen. And I've I've I get very discouraged when I see them going more, you know, k y c doesn't matter route,
952
01:23:22.145 --> 01:23:27.010
because I feel like a lot of these people that really are the types we want,
953
01:23:27.389 --> 01:23:31.730
they're gonna listen. They're gonna follow you. And I just feel like you've got responsibility
954
01:23:32.110 --> 01:23:34.050
as I do, and I take it very seriously
955
01:23:34.355 --> 01:23:37.175
that if peep even though I've got a fraction of the listeners
956
01:23:37.475 --> 01:23:39.655
that you are the followers you all do,
957
01:23:40.114 --> 01:23:47.010
but I take it very seriously. There's people listening to me. I may be putting them in a position to where they're gonna have to fight this thing,
958
01:23:47.330 --> 01:23:48.630
you know, down the road.
959
01:23:48.945 --> 01:23:54.165
And so that's what really irks me about the whole thing is I feel like we've got specific
960
01:23:54.465 --> 01:24:02.480
audiences, each of us. And I feel like, you know, for the most part, we try to do our best in in guiding them, and I just wish that
961
01:24:03.100 --> 01:24:06.165
the no k y c part took a bigger
962
01:24:07.025 --> 01:24:24.065
stance in that general message to the audience because I really think people are ready to hear it right now. They know this world is bullshit. They've seen this compliance. They've seen all this junk. They've seen what the state is willing to try to do to you with these vaccine mandates and all this stuff. Like, they're not gonna let up.
963
01:24:24.525 --> 01:24:30.545
And and if we can just handhold them right across the line, it doesn't matter that they came in initially through KYC.
964
01:24:30.845 --> 01:24:32.145
So what? So did I.
965
01:24:32.719 --> 01:24:38.579
Sell that shit or just stop doing KYC today and move on. I that that's that's it.
966
01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:39.940
Yeah. Right.
967
01:24:40.325 --> 01:24:50.480
Let me just jump in and add a few points. Deverter, I think you made some great points there. I think it is about for well, to some extent for all of us up on the panel today,
968
01:24:50.860 --> 01:24:51.600
it's about
969
01:24:52.620 --> 01:24:56.240
trying to put out good, accurate information for people,
970
01:24:57.325 --> 01:25:04.065
And so I just wanna actually respond to a couple of points in the chat. I can't remember exactly who made those points because we scrolled a little past it, but, essentially,
971
01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:10.700
the point one of the commenters is trying to say is companies' holding isn't the same as individuals. And, yes, granted.
972
01:25:11.080 --> 01:25:20.265
But I think it's also the way I'm seeing this, and okay. Fine. Other people have a different view of this. I see this as a battle that must be fought on multiple fronts. I see this as
973
01:25:20.699 --> 01:25:22.719
even though I don't like politics,
974
01:25:23.260 --> 01:25:31.835
you know, what's the saying? You might not be interested in politics, but politics might be interested in you. And so I think that some of the
975
01:25:32.695 --> 01:25:35.675
responsible Bitcoin only companies that are trying to
976
01:25:36.030 --> 01:25:39.570
build an advocacy base and are at least trying to build up,
977
01:25:40.350 --> 01:25:42.770
some kind of advocacy to
978
01:25:43.205 --> 01:25:55.030
lessen the role of the state. And, yes, the role the the companies in the space may not have exactly aligned interest with fully non KYC, but they will at least try to push that Bitcoin is not illegal,
979
01:25:55.490 --> 01:26:08.895
and they will at least try to push that running a Bitcoin node or holding your own keys should not be illegal, and they will at least try to push back against things like capital gains, or unrealized capital gains taxes and things like that. So
980
01:26:09.610 --> 01:26:16.190
from my perspective, I obviously have a varied show. Right? I talk about a lot of different things on my show. I I have spoken
981
01:26:17.055 --> 01:26:24.835
a lot about privacy. I've I was, you know, one of the, for example, samurai wallet and talk about a lot of the coin join aspects. So I'm
982
01:26:25.550 --> 01:26:26.690
saying it, like,
983
01:26:27.470 --> 01:26:28.290
as long as
984
01:26:28.910 --> 01:26:30.770
you try to honestly put out information,
985
01:26:31.070 --> 01:26:40.280
then I think that's the key part. And if you explain to people, and even for me when I'm at a Bitcoin meetups and I'm trying to explain and teach a new coin, I I will still explain to them about
986
01:26:40.840 --> 01:26:45.820
some of the various risks and trade offs of KYC coin as opposed to acquiring non KYC
987
01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:47.500
coin. But
988
01:26:48.205 --> 01:26:51.165
for in in many cases, and I think this is the point that probably has to be
989
01:26:53.485 --> 01:26:55.330
when you speak to people out there
990
01:26:55.650 --> 01:27:03.990
to take that extra step for non k y c coin. So I think that that's the that's where the rubber meets the road. Right? It's easy to
991
01:27:04.965 --> 01:27:05.465
be
992
01:27:05.844 --> 01:27:19.555
ideologically pure in what you say, but when you are talking to people and trying to onboard a lot of people, and I don't mean in the mass adoption sense, I mean in the trying to, you know, adopt the right people, right, the the remnant people, how do you do that?
993
01:27:22.595 --> 01:27:27.095
So, actually, someone in the comments a long time ago said something that was
994
01:27:27.429 --> 01:27:30.170
them it might have been 6 61 or 2, actually, but,
995
01:27:30.949 --> 01:27:37.494
you know, like, his example was meet up with a friend, have them pay for dinner, right, and then you pay them in Bitcoin.
996
01:27:37.875 --> 01:27:40.855
Right? Now there's their first no KYC transaction.
997
01:27:41.635 --> 01:27:42.135
But,
998
01:27:42.755 --> 01:27:44.375
you know, in general, right, like,
999
01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:45.340
it's
1000
01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:48.620
and again, this is coming from my personal experience of
1001
01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:59.850
how how do I frame everything? What am I you know, like, I I get people all the time as I'm sure everyone here does. As soon as someone finds out that, you know, normally finds out that you're into Bitcoin, they're like, oh,
1002
01:28:00.330 --> 01:28:04.830
like, you know, how how do I get into this? Like, I I wanna be rich and whatever. Right?
1003
01:28:05.370 --> 01:28:08.990
You know, how you how that conversation immediately goes from there
1004
01:28:09.555 --> 01:28:13.015
is is crucial. Right? Like, my conversations are about,
1005
01:28:13.635 --> 01:28:17.015
you know, are about privacy, about opting out, or about,
1006
01:28:18.035 --> 01:28:18.775
you know,
1007
01:28:19.320 --> 01:28:28.060
being sovereign. Right? All of these factors that that I find important, right, like censorship resistance, you don't want which is easy to pitch now. Right? Like, we just talked about,
1008
01:28:28.845 --> 01:28:31.025
you know, COVID and everything else. Like, censorship
1009
01:28:31.565 --> 01:28:32.865
is a is a easy sell.
1010
01:28:33.245 --> 01:28:34.065
Right? So,
1011
01:28:34.925 --> 01:28:42.610
when it comes down to it, and we talk about adoption and, you know, where would we be? Because it brings me back to, like, the
1012
01:28:44.350 --> 01:28:45.810
to, like, why Bitcoin
1013
01:28:46.275 --> 01:28:48.775
is great. Like, we all here agree
1014
01:28:49.155 --> 01:28:57.490
that Bitcoin is, you know, is one of the greatest tools that have ever been created that we know. Right? Like, I mean, that's at least like the marketing pitch. But
1015
01:28:58.190 --> 01:29:00.530
for all the reasons that we say that it's important,
1016
01:29:01.230 --> 01:29:09.295
what, like, what is it, and how do we put that out to people? Because if it's just like, hey. Get your hands on Bitcoin just to get there, and then eventually,
1017
01:29:09.915 --> 01:29:11.614
somewhere down the line, hopefully,
1018
01:29:12.130 --> 01:29:29.550
you go down the rabbit hole and you figure it out. Like, that might work, and that that's probably the case for everyone that's on this panel right now. We all probably started KYC, and then we all probably fucking figured it out from there. Right? But we're at a point now where, like, you know, KYC wasn't in, you know, 2015, 2016.
1019
01:29:30.170 --> 01:29:35.470
KYC was there, but, like, you know, it it wasn't the same as it is now, and and it's just getting worse.
1020
01:29:35.865 --> 01:29:36.605
You know? And
1021
01:29:36.905 --> 01:29:38.845
you're I I think it's in
1022
01:29:39.305 --> 01:29:53.050
before I continue, I just wanna say like like, you know, we me and Diverter, we keep saying, like, influencers are saying these things or people are saying this, and it makes us disheartened, and they're kinda talking at 2 sides of their mouth. And it's obviously not just directed at just YouTube.
1023
01:29:54.405 --> 01:29:54.905
It's,
1024
01:29:55.525 --> 01:29:59.625
you know, it's the majority of people on Twitter. Right? It's it's
1025
01:30:00.085 --> 01:30:01.065
all these people
1026
01:30:01.670 --> 01:30:03.530
who are quote, unquote influencers,
1027
01:30:04.390 --> 01:30:06.489
and it's really, really easy.
1028
01:30:06.870 --> 01:30:11.285
Right? It is really easy for someone to come up and tell everyone,
1029
01:30:12.625 --> 01:30:13.685
hey. Like,
1030
01:30:14.065 --> 01:30:15.125
just get into Bitcoin,
1031
01:30:15.505 --> 01:30:34.925
but always have no KYC. Right? That's your way of, like, getting around it. Right? Because then you gotta hit both parties. You're like, look, I support both. And it's not a knock on you guys, but it is just like, that is the easy path. That is the easiest thing that we could do. And, like, for talking about privacy and talking about no KYC, like, I applaud you guys. Right? But, like, the hard path,
1032
01:30:35.305 --> 01:30:36.685
the unpopular path
1033
01:30:37.219 --> 01:30:43.400
is talking about how to actually opt out, how to actually operate in this, like, no KYC
1034
01:30:43.780 --> 01:30:49.895
environment, like, how to actually live in a fiat world without KYC, or how to actually,
1035
01:30:50.275 --> 01:31:00.980
like, onboard people with this. How to actually onboard onboard people or help help fund things that, like, build no KYC avenues? Right? Like, how do we do that? Like, those
1036
01:31:01.440 --> 01:31:09.925
if if we had more effort, and there's no money in it. Like, as Dave Reuter said, there's no money in this. Like, who's gonna pay you? No one no one's gonna pay,
1037
01:31:10.385 --> 01:31:17.090
pay any influencer or anyone with any sort of actual amount of value, right, to come out and do it. That's why Bitcoin has no
1038
01:31:17.550 --> 01:31:24.525
real, like, marketing campaign. Right? Like like, we're not like the other shit coins that, like, have these big marketing campaigns and go out and make make
1039
01:31:25.065 --> 01:31:32.220
all sorts of, you know, ads and and whatnot. Right? Like, you see that from the exchanges. Right? Because they have the money. We don't have that.
1040
01:31:32.600 --> 01:31:38.460
Right? So what do we have? We have all those list of people that diverter said, influencers, builders,
1041
01:31:38.965 --> 01:31:42.745
which by the way, I take a knock at you calling me a builder and not a leader, but that's fine.
1042
01:31:44.485 --> 01:31:50.969
But, you know, like, where what are we doing to get there? Like, we all up here have agreed that, like, no KYC
1043
01:31:51.829 --> 01:31:53.690
is that important. It is important.
1044
01:31:55.405 --> 01:31:58.225
But then then the conversation is stopping at,
1045
01:31:58.685 --> 01:32:00.545
well, it's it's too hard.
1046
01:32:00.925 --> 01:32:03.905
It's too hard to get people to do these things.
1047
01:32:04.300 --> 01:32:06.000
Okay. I see an obstacle.
1048
01:32:06.940 --> 01:32:09.280
So what's what how do you get over the obstacle?
1049
01:32:09.820 --> 01:32:14.045
Right? If there's an obstacle in front of you, you have 2 options. You either quit and turn around
1050
01:32:14.925 --> 01:32:29.329
or you figure out how to get over that obstacle. That's it. Those are the only two ways that you can operate in life. You're not gonna run run straight into an obstacle a 100. You're not gonna run to a brick wall a 100 times and hope that, you know, on the 100th time that the brick wall falls down. It's not how it works. Right?
1051
01:32:29.630 --> 01:32:30.770
So, you know,
1052
01:32:31.309 --> 01:32:33.329
utilizing that KYC and being like, well,
1053
01:32:33.765 --> 01:32:36.985
you know, like, this is like a it's just a temporary thing.
1054
01:32:37.365 --> 01:32:41.385
I I like, that that to me doesn't solve any issues. That to me is is
1055
01:32:42.040 --> 01:32:56.045
it's the easy path. You know? We need to really figure out it it if everyone on here is that adamant about no KYC or that adamant about the risks of the state and that adamant about how great but how great Bitcoin is, you know, for its decentralizations,
1056
01:32:56.345 --> 01:33:04.860
for its, censorship resistance, you know, for anybody to be able to transact with anybody, any route, anywhere around the world. Right? And, you know, in an instant,
1057
01:33:05.800 --> 01:33:08.380
then why are we not building? Why are we not trying to
1058
01:33:08.875 --> 01:33:20.480
increase that onboard process? Like like, I I hear, like, obstacles, but there's nothing that's saying, like, hey. Let let's try to fix it. Like, someone puts out a guide, someone retweets it, and then I go, okay. That's good.
1059
01:33:20.780 --> 01:33:27.440
You know? Like, that's it. No no one's no one's actually trying. And don't get me wrong. Probably part of it is that the people that are
1060
01:33:27.885 --> 01:33:29.425
on as you know,
1061
01:33:29.965 --> 01:33:35.585
they actually are on 0, and they're all in Bitcoin, and they still operate in the Bitcoin in the Fiat world.
1062
01:33:36.060 --> 01:33:47.455
I'm sure that they don't wanna go out and advertise, you know, to everybody what their methods are, because, you know, that would be the next step for the state to, you know, to start censoring that those means,
1063
01:33:48.235 --> 01:33:50.574
to people operate outside of their control.
1064
01:33:51.030 --> 01:33:59.210
Because that's ultimately what it is. The fiat world is what controls us. And if we wanna be outside of control, the goal isn't to, you know, to appease
1065
01:33:59.510 --> 01:34:02.074
the to appease the government, to appease,
1066
01:34:02.534 --> 01:34:09.675
you know, regulators and, you know, exchanges and all other stuff. Like, yeah, sure, they they can have power and that's great. But
1067
01:34:09.980 --> 01:34:12.719
if you're if you work for somewhere that's over complying,
1068
01:34:13.100 --> 01:34:15.040
they're in exchange and they're over complying,
1069
01:34:15.580 --> 01:34:19.199
or they're not building tools that can actually benefit their users,
1070
01:34:19.505 --> 01:34:23.765
you know, like, what good is it? Like, what good are we doing? Because
1071
01:34:24.305 --> 01:34:28.485
we're we're just making excuses. That's what a lot of this ends up coming down to.
1072
01:34:29.300 --> 01:34:32.040
I just wanna point one thing real quick, because I believe,
1073
01:34:32.980 --> 01:34:36.840
to your guys' credit, to the guys' on on here's credit, you
1074
01:34:37.515 --> 01:34:40.495
may have mentioned that, you know, you feel like the easy part is,
1075
01:34:40.875 --> 01:34:41.775
you know, saying,
1076
01:34:42.635 --> 01:34:47.349
I I I kinda support both. I I I I might kinda disagree with that a little bit because
1077
01:34:47.809 --> 01:34:49.269
I recognize fully,
1078
01:34:51.170 --> 01:34:57.415
I feel like the easy the easier road is to take, this sort of, fundamentalist,
1079
01:34:58.275 --> 01:35:16.574
never do KYC no matter what stance. And we see that all the time in the privacy space, especially if anybody's operating in the privacy space, you'll know. I mean, you'll get called, Get get called, you know, a LARP for, you know, hosting your own Bitward and running your own Bitward because it's not fully offline and all that stuff. Like, so the the fundamentalist stances
1080
01:35:16.900 --> 01:35:23.000
to in my opinion, are the easy ones to make. The hard ones to do are the ones where you try to figure out,
1081
01:35:24.125 --> 01:35:24.945
you know, adoption
1082
01:35:25.804 --> 01:35:30.225
in this environment that we're in. So I I I understand that,
1083
01:35:30.925 --> 01:35:34.070
but, you know, again, I go back to this point about audiences,
1084
01:35:34.929 --> 01:35:43.864
and it's why, you know, like I said, I appreciate Stefan. He talks about all this stuff. He's got a very broad audience. Matt constantly rails against KYC. I appreciate what he does.
1085
01:35:44.805 --> 01:35:55.160
You know, but you don't catch me, like, in Raoul Pal's mentions, you know, blabbing to everybody there about, you know, going on no k y c because they don't give a shit. They're they're
1086
01:35:55.615 --> 01:36:02.435
speculative. They're traitors. They don't care. So, you know, it's I feel like just standing in the middle of a square somewhere and shouting
1087
01:36:02.820 --> 01:36:09.400
no KYC at everybody that walks by doesn't get you a whole lot of places. But when you've already got that audience
1088
01:36:09.835 --> 01:36:17.054
that is that is there, that they're ready to be sovereign individuals, they're ready to take that next step, I think it's it's key. It's paramount
1089
01:36:17.434 --> 01:36:18.974
to to give it to them then.
1090
01:36:19.820 --> 01:36:22.239
The adoption curve isn't you know,
1091
01:36:22.699 --> 01:36:27.360
I I don't I don't think the adoption curve is entering through Stefan and and and
1092
01:36:27.864 --> 01:36:32.045
myself. Like, I I think the the signal has spread so broadly.
1093
01:36:32.425 --> 01:36:38.130
You have Tucker Carlson talking to tens of millions of people about inflation. Right? So people are worried about inflation.
1094
01:36:38.910 --> 01:36:51.785
They, you know, it it really you know, I'm not saying it shouldn't be a progression that that that starts with people buying Bitcoin the wrong way. I'm saying it is. And and that's the reality is people, like, buy paper Bitcoin with their bank.
1095
01:36:52.885 --> 01:37:05.045
It's only when they end up with a talk with the Bitcoiner that it goes you know, that that you have time to say, hey. Get some sats and make sure you can stick them in a wallet. I'll show you how. Right? And and and and and so, like,
1096
01:37:05.505 --> 01:37:16.060
I I I guess my fundamental thing is that, like, we have to grapple with that reality that this the adoption curve is getting fatter and fatter, and it is entering through KYC.
1097
01:37:17.320 --> 01:37:20.815
You know, I have a huge audience that I I talk with about,
1098
01:37:21.594 --> 01:37:25.375
the great reset because I've been, you know, laser focused on,
1099
01:37:25.995 --> 01:37:33.520
the ways that they're upgrading the state, the ways that they're upgrading the monetary system starting in 2020. I think this whole decade, we're gonna see that,
1100
01:37:34.219 --> 01:37:42.545
unveil. You know, we're in this info war. It's literally like a World War 3. And so diverter said, you know, why aren't I telling people just to get in the trench?
1101
01:37:43.245 --> 01:37:46.190
Essentially disappear into no KYC. And and, like,
1102
01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:49.890
I actually think the most prudent thing is to think of it as a emergency,
1103
01:37:50.350 --> 01:38:02.350
an escape hatch. Like, make an emergency fund, grow it. And and they also think I the the same time, I'm being kind to the progression because I know when I was new at Bitcoin, it would sound like gibberish if someone said,
1104
01:38:02.670 --> 01:38:09.170
do all these things. Like, you know, it was overwhelming the idea of holding my own keys when I just got into Bitcoin in 2018.
1105
01:38:09.965 --> 01:38:13.505
So I I don't know what to do about that other than other than recognize,
1106
01:38:14.445 --> 01:38:21.400
I do want the adoption. I do want the political entrenchment. I do want number grow up. I do want I do want the broadest adoption
1107
01:38:21.860 --> 01:38:37.320
as possible. And then, like, my my semantic answer, my practical answer to owning Bitcoin wrong ways, people should rebalance because you start you think you have Bitcoin, you bought grayscale, oh, shit. Rebalance to physical sets that you can cuss Laser. Laser. Have
1108
01:38:37.699 --> 01:38:39.159
Laser. So so
1109
01:38:39.699 --> 01:38:43.239
you keep talking about people who buy Grayscale, buy GBTC,
1110
01:38:43.935 --> 01:38:44.915
buy, like, this,
1111
01:38:45.375 --> 01:38:46.995
you know, faux ETF,
1112
01:38:47.535 --> 01:38:51.395
and don't understand the trade offs, and they should, you know, they should stack
1113
01:38:52.120 --> 01:38:54.460
self custody instead, KYC SATS.
1114
01:38:55.000 --> 01:39:00.620
How is that any different than someone who buys KYC SATS and doesn't realize the trade off?
1115
01:39:01.285 --> 01:39:06.105
Like, how how it what what is where is the difference there, and how do how does buying
1116
01:39:06.565 --> 01:39:07.065
Bitcoin
1117
01:39:07.820 --> 01:39:11.440
attached to your personal identity and all your intimate personal information
1118
01:39:11.900 --> 01:39:17.040
protect you from a great reset? Like, we talk we talk about 6102 all the time.
1119
01:39:17.375 --> 01:39:17.875
Yep.
1120
01:39:18.255 --> 01:39:22.034
We're gonna have super burdensome regulation that comes down on Bitcoin
1121
01:39:22.574 --> 01:39:29.980
as part of this great reset. We already have super burdensome regulation on Bitcoin that no one talks about, which is the fact that if you spend Bitcoin,
1122
01:39:30.600 --> 01:39:32.460
you know, the state takes 30%
1123
01:39:32.840 --> 01:39:34.780
of of that of that transaction
1124
01:39:35.405 --> 01:39:42.865
and then takes income tax on top of that from whoever whoever you're paying to. Yeah. So, fundamentally, I think there's 2 strategies
1125
01:39:43.170 --> 01:39:53.284
that are playing out. I'm just watching them. 1 is it Bitcoin is becoming a broad tool for families to defend themselves from inflation, and it's starting to get a republican conservative,
1126
01:39:54.304 --> 01:39:55.045
like, political
1127
01:39:55.425 --> 01:39:59.764
slant where you actually see people on the right taking it up. It might even be
1128
01:40:00.224 --> 01:40:13.845
a election issue with this Hillary versus Trump 2024 thing. So even though that's cringe, I think it's actually good because it screams political entrenchment. So I think that is a strategy and I wanna see broad adoption in that way. At the same time,
1129
01:40:14.225 --> 01:40:16.885
people shouldn't be naive about KYC persecution.
1130
01:40:18.065 --> 01:40:20.770
Re you know, most people end up with KYC
1131
01:40:21.550 --> 01:40:38.500
Bitcoin rebalance. What's your allocation of no KYC Bitcoin? Because the the reality is if they 6102 this stuff, you'll be psyched if you have it in a wallet, but you're still gonna have to answer for it if, you know, they have they understand how much Bitcoin you have. So, you know, I want families positioned for both strategies
1132
01:40:38.880 --> 01:40:42.900
so that they can flex through this decade. Because the idea that
1133
01:40:43.360 --> 01:40:48.625
the KYC has its own trade offs. There's no k y no KYC. They have opposite shaped trade offs.
1134
01:40:48.925 --> 01:40:51.505
So, people need to be realistic about that.
1135
01:40:52.765 --> 01:40:56.330
Sure. But to me, that's, like, exactly the point. Like,
1136
01:40:57.030 --> 01:41:04.835
I because I I agree with you. Like, as as you said, the the adoption curve of the funnel that was going around for a while a while back, the funnel,
1137
01:41:05.535 --> 01:41:07.074
the end is getting much wider.
1138
01:41:08.015 --> 01:41:15.570
Much more people are being introduced to Bitcoin and and beginning to to see the value and being able to store store their hard earned,
1139
01:41:16.130 --> 01:41:21.510
you know, value time value in an asset that's not able to be just deflated on a whim.
1140
01:41:22.335 --> 01:41:23.475
Grant you all that.
1141
01:41:23.775 --> 01:41:33.210
My issue then is that, obviously, that's not who we're speaking to. I'm not speaking to that person. I don't know that person. Tucker Carlson is speaking to that person.
1142
01:41:33.590 --> 01:41:35.449
What I wanna make sure of is
1143
01:41:35.750 --> 01:41:36.810
as because
1144
01:41:37.295 --> 01:41:45.080
the the real true reality is they don't understand what they're holding. They just know that this thing is only gonna be 21,000,000 of it. Now
1145
01:41:45.619 --> 01:41:57.985
to me, that is that that's sending them into a construction site without a hard hat. Like, they don't understand what they're walking into, and I'm not giving them any sort of protection. Now I can't give them any protection when they're listening to Tucker,
1146
01:41:58.445 --> 01:42:08.235
obviously, but what I can do is I can make sure that wherever I am at, wherever I do have an audience, if they show up there, the first thing they're gonna see
1147
01:42:08.554 --> 01:42:27.050
is talk about the the the potential threats and the adversarial style of thinking that has gotten Bitcoin to even be able to survive to this point, because had it not been for taking these exact trade offs and and forming this adversarial mindset that we're going to run a parallel system regardless
1148
01:42:27.415 --> 01:42:33.275
of whether it's politically entrenched or not. It's going to run. That's only possible because we made
1149
01:42:33.735 --> 01:42:35.675
these these trade offs, these specific
1150
01:42:35.980 --> 01:42:37.840
purposeful trade offs to not,
1151
01:42:38.940 --> 01:42:41.599
you know, be at their whims. And I just don't
1152
01:42:41.980 --> 01:42:46.905
I've been I I guess maybe I'm too disillusioned with politics at this point. I I'm not
1153
01:42:47.605 --> 01:42:56.270
I wouldn't necessarily say burn it all down because that's just not probably how things are gonna go. But the the fact of the matter is as far as relying on the political,
1154
01:42:58.090 --> 01:43:00.555
as as, like, a strategy as far as,
1155
01:43:01.195 --> 01:43:02.395
adoption or even,
1156
01:43:02.955 --> 01:43:06.595
legal ramifications. I'd I'd I just don't see it because I've seen
1157
01:43:07.035 --> 01:43:14.430
I think just, like I said, with this vaccine mandate, I mean, it was half the country. It was vehemently opposed to it. So is does that mean we're gonna have to have
1158
01:43:14.890 --> 01:43:22.065
60% of United States Bitcoiners that are holding their own keys before it's politically untenable? I don't even think that's the case
1159
01:43:22.525 --> 01:43:24.780
because this is a unite all sides,
1160
01:43:25.340 --> 01:43:29.039
issue here. The United States is losing their global dominance,
1161
01:43:30.139 --> 01:43:38.645
you know, to this magic Internet money. There's I just don't I don't I can't wrap my head around it. I don't see how it could be possible without there being some sort of
1162
01:43:39.910 --> 01:43:42.490
attempt to drastically neuter
1163
01:43:42.950 --> 01:43:43.850
this permissionless
1164
01:43:44.310 --> 01:43:49.050
network so that they can exercise some sort of control over it. Because otherwise,
1165
01:43:49.655 --> 01:43:51.114
if if, you know,
1166
01:43:51.495 --> 01:43:57.515
whoever Joe Schmo out there sees that Tucker clip and goes out and buys himself some Bitcoin on Coinbase,
1167
01:43:58.790 --> 01:44:06.410
you know, maybe he leaves it there. Maybe he never knows anything. But, again, that's that's not our audience. That's not who we're talking to. That's that that's not our fighters.
1168
01:44:07.195 --> 01:44:11.934
You know, and you can't get mad at the person that's not a fighter. I used to laugh at all the time.
1169
01:44:12.315 --> 01:44:32.865
People that were criminals would get mad when, you know, the little old lady down the street called the cops on them. What the that's that's her job. That's what she does. She's not a fighter. She she's a civilian. And so, you know, these people that are just buying Bitcoin because and they don't really understand it. They just know it can't be inflated away. Fine. That's all good and fine. What I'm hoping for though is that
1170
01:44:33.500 --> 01:44:40.960
if they or anyone around them then begin to actually dig into what this thing is, I want as soon as possible,
1171
01:44:41.315 --> 01:44:45.895
I want them to be able to to come across an aspect and a perspective
1172
01:44:46.275 --> 01:44:52.980
to where they understand that there's an entirely different side to this thing, and it it may just not be our roses and sunshine forever.
1173
01:44:53.280 --> 01:45:02.514
And, I mean, we're already in a war right now. It's already happened as you've pointed out, and you continue to point out with your great reset takes, like, as you're which I appreciate, by the way.
1174
01:45:03.855 --> 01:45:07.954
You know, the the it's happening now. Like, this is this is not just some future,
1175
01:45:08.570 --> 01:45:12.110
problem that we're talking about. Like, today, the war is currently fighting.
1176
01:45:12.489 --> 01:45:26.230
And so I want as soon the in the hive top 100, I want 97 of them to be no k y c advocates. I want this this when whenever anybody is introduced to the wider Bitcoin audience or to the leaders
1177
01:45:26.610 --> 01:45:27.909
of this Bitcoin movement.
1178
01:45:28.369 --> 01:45:37.695
Not that everybody takes their cues from Stefan or you or me or Matt or anybody else, but they eventually come for a community. We've seen it happen.
1179
01:45:38.050 --> 01:45:40.550
I want that community to be one that
1180
01:45:41.250 --> 01:45:45.830
enables them to best protect themselves and their loved ones so that
1181
01:45:46.325 --> 01:45:47.705
no matter what happens,
1182
01:45:48.325 --> 01:46:07.605
they're able to they're they're able, not just willing. I mean, you you can be willing to fight, but you can't fight for shit. You're just gonna get beat up. So if you if you're not if you if you've bought all k y c, and, yeah, you're holding it in your own wallet, but then when they declare it illegal and they know you've bought this, or, you know, self custody illegal and they come for you,
1183
01:46:08.625 --> 01:46:13.125
very, very vanishingly small amount of people are gonna actually resist that.
1184
01:46:13.810 --> 01:46:14.310
Now
1185
01:46:15.090 --> 01:46:15.910
in my opinion,
1186
01:46:16.290 --> 01:46:17.430
the best possible
1187
01:46:17.970 --> 01:46:27.125
chance that we have to have people that actually are able and willing to resist it is to have those that aren't on their, you know, easily accessible
1188
01:46:27.560 --> 01:46:35.465
subpoenaed list or don't even need a subpoena with a third party doctor. They can get all that information from the exchanges. So if we have a nice
1189
01:46:35.945 --> 01:46:40.205
selection of people that aren't subject to this rule,
1190
01:46:41.465 --> 01:46:45.860
those are our fighters. And and I just think we, especially on here,
1191
01:46:46.320 --> 01:46:51.699
maybe with the exception of Stefan and Matt, they've got a little bit larger audiences. But us 3,
1192
01:46:52.595 --> 01:46:58.295
remainders, I feel like like that's that's the only people we're talking to are the people that are ready.
1193
01:46:59.370 --> 01:47:14.315
Yeah. It's it's, you know, the sailor kind of view. It's like you have a broad populace that is going to take their KYC wealth. They don't wanna store it in dollars certainly right now, and maybe they don't wanna start in equity anymore. It's like digital property. They wanna store it in Bitcoin,
1194
01:47:14.750 --> 01:47:21.730
and they're entering through all these different avenues, then they get to us. You're saying we should lean in heavier on
1195
01:47:22.574 --> 01:47:24.034
do you take issue with the angle?
1196
01:47:24.415 --> 01:47:25.715
If if I'm saying, look,
1197
01:47:26.494 --> 01:47:34.510
mine at home, build a no KYC stack, you know, that's destined for the Bitcoin only economy. You know, that's kinda how I think about it.
1198
01:47:34.970 --> 01:47:45.655
That's it's it's like this in between place between where you are and where, like, a sailor where sailors kind of like, look, CBDs, these are coming. Let them have the currency. You just treat this as digital property.
1199
01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:56.495
I I guess I just don't see the purpose in it. I I I don't I don't see the reasoning behind if you know that this other option exists where you don't have provide all your identity and everything
1200
01:47:56.875 --> 01:47:59.295
to in order to acquire this Bitcoin. Now
1201
01:47:59.675 --> 01:48:00.175
sure.
1202
01:48:00.555 --> 01:48:05.100
As you I mean, you're gonna go buy a house. You're still gonna have to account for that wealth.
1203
01:48:05.800 --> 01:48:18.505
You know? Yeah. And you could you could answer for that. Sure. But I just don't under that's it's not as if that can't be done if it's still, if you acquire those through non KYC means. It isn't like you have to have a KYC,
1204
01:48:19.605 --> 01:48:28.150
backlog to shove that. What are you gonna have to pay taxes? I mean, you're still you're claiming it. You're not trying to hide it. I just don't understand why there has to be a separated
1205
01:48:28.905 --> 01:48:30.364
thing. Like, I know
1206
01:48:30.905 --> 01:48:34.205
I use my non KYC Bitcoin regularly. I mean,
1207
01:48:34.585 --> 01:48:38.890
2, 3, 4 times a week, I make purchases with my non KYC sets,
1208
01:48:39.510 --> 01:48:47.930
or I'll might sell, like, hop on to BISK and sell a little bit. Somebody saved me the other day. I needed a little cash, didn't have any hopped on BISK sold and done.
1209
01:48:48.265 --> 01:48:54.345
And, you know, I didn't have a a KYC background for those, and I was able to go pay my bill. So, I mean, I just
1210
01:48:54.665 --> 01:48:59.710
it's completely plausible to live in the world without having to acquire through KYC.
1211
01:49:00.250 --> 01:49:12.030
Once you have wrapped your mind around the fact that this KYC stuff is what it is and that you don't have to do it, you're really only doing it as far as I can tell for the convenience,
1212
01:49:12.489 --> 01:49:15.949
which granted is quite a bit more convenient sometimes,
1213
01:49:17.745 --> 01:49:26.645
you know, or or maybe even the fees because it could cost a little bit more. You know, there there's obviously downsides to go on the non k y c route. But as far as I can tell,
1214
01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:27.739
the potential
1215
01:49:28.520 --> 01:49:29.020
downside
1216
01:49:29.400 --> 01:49:30.139
of not,
1217
01:49:30.599 --> 01:49:34.619
protecting yourself through, you know, staying off of their databases
1218
01:49:35.165 --> 01:49:45.969
is just so much more drastic than than anything else. I just can't. There that's that's like the one compromise. That is the absolute red line for me. Like, KYC
1219
01:49:46.510 --> 01:49:48.449
is a nonstarter for me.
1220
01:49:48.750 --> 01:49:51.010
Point blank period. And, you know,
1221
01:49:51.550 --> 01:49:55.805
that's that's it. We can and should grow the remnant. I agree with you.
1222
01:49:56.185 --> 01:50:08.050
I think there's trillions of KYC wealth that's going to be KYC in Fiat or Bitcoin that comes online. I want it I I'd rather it be stored in Bitcoin. You know, it's it's institutionalized
1223
01:50:08.350 --> 01:50:21.540
wealth. It's small businesses. It's corporations. They don't have an easy way to to to basically go into the Bitcoin only economy yet. Yeah. At the same time, let's grow that remnant. I agree with you. Well, the yeah. They they they can do
1224
01:50:22.159 --> 01:50:31.625
as they see fit. You know, like I said, the the or like, you know, many people have said, like, everybody's gonna get into Bitcoin at the price that they deserve, essentially. You know, these companies and these,
1225
01:50:31.930 --> 01:50:33.390
you know, high net worth individuals,
1226
01:50:34.090 --> 01:51:01.595
they have they have no interest in in fighting against the state. They'll be the 1st to comply. That's not that's again, though, that's that's not our audience. It's not who we're talking to. That's not who Laser Huddl's talking to on Twitter. That's not who Diverter's talking to on Twitter. I'm not talking to corporations. I'm not talking to high net worth individuals. I'm talking to the people in the trenches. That's who's following me. That's who's, you know, reading my articles. That's who's reading my shit takes on Twitter and never liking or retweeting them.
1227
01:51:02.295 --> 01:51:04.395
You know, so, like, I feel like
1228
01:51:04.935 --> 01:51:13.420
I just don't know how I would I can square the circle of me knowing that I'm talking to these sovereign individuals and me believing
1229
01:51:14.015 --> 01:51:16.995
fully in my heart that if this thing that we're in,
1230
01:51:17.455 --> 01:51:20.915
if it is successful in doing the thing that it's built to do,
1231
01:51:21.455 --> 01:51:23.475
I don't know how we get around the fight.
1232
01:51:24.239 --> 01:51:27.860
It could fail, and we don't ever have to fight. But if it's successful,
1233
01:51:28.480 --> 01:51:59.870
I don't know, man. I don't see I don't see how we get around it. There is a strategy to to making Bitcoin more legitimate. I that's I I wish you could appreciate that that legitimizing Bitcoin is a strategy and political entrenchment is a strategy. It's happening in front of us. So we have, like, one horse in that race. We also need the remnant horse, the escape hatch horse. So I wanna play both. I wanna grow, put the right people into both, teach them the trade offs, and and scope the adoption curve the best that we can, recognizing we don't have absolute control over it anyways. I mean, at least,
1234
01:52:00.730 --> 01:52:03.230
hold your damn keys at the you know,
1235
01:52:03.770 --> 01:52:05.085
that's where I'm at with it.
1236
01:52:06.285 --> 01:52:07.505
Okay. So,
1237
01:52:07.965 --> 01:52:09.665
I had some thoughts, and I just,
1238
01:52:10.125 --> 01:52:11.745
we we kinda talked about,
1239
01:52:12.125 --> 01:52:12.785
the fighters
1240
01:52:13.660 --> 01:52:22.560
and people who we want to be in Bitcoin. We can't control who goes into Bitcoin. Right? But, like, who we're talking and and how we're pushing people is the important part, but, like,
1241
01:52:23.085 --> 01:52:26.145
accepting that the KYC exchanges are okay.
1242
01:52:26.765 --> 01:52:28.465
Right? Like, they're okay right now,
1243
01:52:28.925 --> 01:52:44.045
or, like, you know, because it's it's unavoidable, let's just, like, get on board and and try to get people to go, like, an escape hatch or whatever for now. And you're not in again. Isn't what I feel like? I don't want you to feel super triggered. I did the same
1244
01:52:44.425 --> 01:52:57.540
little, like, routine when I was talking when I did the node 1, I was talking to Matt Hill. I felt like he felt very attacked, and, wasn't wasn't the case. Again, this is, like, just speaking to, like, you know, the Twitter Twitterverse as a whole.
1245
01:52:58.355 --> 01:52:58.855
But,
1246
01:52:59.475 --> 01:53:09.530
like, would everyone here be as, you know would you guys be, like, as, like, okay with KYC if we were if they were limiting the people that were able to buy Bitcoin?
1247
01:53:09.910 --> 01:53:10.890
So, like, if,
1248
01:53:11.270 --> 01:53:14.490
you know, the restrictions got harder and who you could actually
1249
01:53:14.905 --> 01:53:23.085
who was actually allowed to to buy KYC Bitcoin. Are you are we gonna be on a like, are you guys gonna be on board? Or is it gonna be, oh, shit.
1250
01:53:23.510 --> 01:53:27.210
Now we have to change. Right? Like, I feel like right now, it's a convenience
1251
01:53:27.750 --> 01:53:44.550
of, like, well, you know, they're they're allowing people. Like, they're not really restricting much, and it's and it's pretty easy. Right? Like, so I think we're good. Right? But, like, we're we're not thinking down the line or thinking, like, you know, thinking about, like, what what's gonna happen between now
1252
01:53:45.010 --> 01:53:45.410
and this,
1253
01:53:46.050 --> 01:53:46.550
proverbial,
1254
01:53:48.344 --> 01:53:48.844
imaginary,
1255
01:53:49.304 --> 01:53:50.125
hyper Bitcoinization,
1256
01:53:50.905 --> 01:53:52.284
no fiat world,
1257
01:53:52.905 --> 01:53:55.485
right, where where that KYC didn't matter.
1258
01:53:56.610 --> 01:53:58.070
The the reality is that,
1259
01:53:58.690 --> 01:54:10.255
you know, KYC, and and I'll turn this over to you guys, but, like, if KYC, they just started to, you know, the state, whether it's in the US or whether it's UK or wherever, if they just started limiting who could buy.
1260
01:54:10.715 --> 01:54:24.735
Right? They said, oh, you know, or if we start to have a social score or whatever, they're like, oh, well, you're not high enough on the social score, you don't get to buy Bitcoin. You're not That's already happening. We're already destined towards no cash, towards full surveillance, and and
1261
01:54:25.275 --> 01:54:27.215
But that's not gonna be my Bitcoin. Right?
1262
01:54:27.710 --> 01:54:30.610
Yeah. But but, like account completely Bitcoin. Right?
1263
01:54:31.230 --> 01:54:33.810
Well, that's true. But there's a window where we're in this
1264
01:54:34.110 --> 01:54:58.385
analog fiat world, and we're switching to a digital fiat world. And in and in that world, you know, the the method of, like, trying to pay your mortgage with a cash or money order or whatever, trying to buy things, That slowly disintegrates. So there's there's a problem that we have to contend with there, and I don't have a great answer other than to say, like, that's coming and that's real. So, like and that and that's why I'm, like, pointing it out. Right? Like, KYC is acceptable
1265
01:54:58.820 --> 01:55:02.920
to to the masses for now. Like, I I had to be on Twitter last night and just see everyone
1266
01:55:03.380 --> 01:55:05.080
super defensive about KYC,
1267
01:55:05.860 --> 01:55:07.960
which blows my mind that, like,
1268
01:55:08.365 --> 01:55:10.305
being KYC being defensive
1269
01:55:10.685 --> 01:55:12.465
of, like, it's okay to be KYC.
1270
01:55:13.005 --> 01:55:13.505
Like,
1271
01:55:14.045 --> 01:55:24.970
you know, like, oh, well, like, everyone should KYC. Like, how else? How are we gonna think of the grandmas. You know? Like and and it wasn't just you saying. There was a lot of people on Twitter just saying, like, think of grandma. And I'm like, I don't care really, like,
1272
01:55:25.435 --> 01:55:31.295
you know, like Deborah said, like, grandma's not the fighter. Right? Like, it's it's, like, what does it do? Community
1273
01:55:32.315 --> 01:55:41.000
workers. Sent back to work. Their people their retirement's being stolen. So I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna pretend like Bitcoin's illegal in front of them. I wanna legitimize
1274
01:55:41.355 --> 01:55:52.850
Bitcoin to the people that are that that are used to living in this fiat world. I wanna legitimize an even better point, though. Like, you're making an even a better point for my case. Right? Because, like, if the state knows that you just took that money,
1275
01:55:53.230 --> 01:55:58.130
your retirement, and you just put it into Bitcoin because you bought it on exchange because it was easy for grandma,
1276
01:55:59.425 --> 01:55:59.925
then
1277
01:56:00.545 --> 01:56:03.364
the state still knows that she has Bitcoin. The state
1278
01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:10.120
knows that she has the money. So when they wanna come for a while, you know, their their capital gain
1279
01:56:12.575 --> 01:56:25.860
It's the same thing with equities. It's the same thing with any type of property. It's there's still, like, a few well. And and and no KYC is an escape hatch. We can siphon wealth out of the KYC, the fiat era. That's great. How do we fundamentally
1280
01:56:26.160 --> 01:56:29.300
change the adoption curve that is entering through KYC?
1281
01:56:29.600 --> 01:56:33.925
I haven't heard an answer other than Stefan and I should preach no KYC more
1282
01:56:34.305 --> 01:56:43.190
fair. I think it's important. I agreed with you. Right? Like, I'm saying, we're now like, as a bit the Bitcoin community as a whole as a whole,
1283
01:56:43.730 --> 01:56:45.429
other than saying it's good.
1284
01:56:45.969 --> 01:56:46.469
Right?
1285
01:56:47.145 --> 01:56:49.565
And there are people that are advocates for no KYC,
1286
01:56:49.945 --> 01:56:55.645
and they generally be tend to be the, you know, the smaller audience people, like Diverter,
1287
01:56:56.050 --> 01:56:57.910
you know, doesn't have that many followers.
1288
01:56:58.930 --> 01:57:00.630
But, you know, you you
1289
01:57:01.970 --> 01:57:03.030
we are not building
1290
01:57:03.435 --> 01:57:11.295
anything greater, or we're not how how do we expand this? How do we make more money orders on this? How do we increase liquidity?
1291
01:57:11.640 --> 01:57:14.700
You know, like, those are the things that, like, are very important.
1292
01:57:15.320 --> 01:57:15.720
Or
1293
01:57:16.200 --> 01:57:42.645
like, someone just made a good point. How do we build a better peer to peer answer? Like, how do we build how do people build a better Bitcoin community within their own circles, within their own local communities? You know, like, those are the things, and that's why I love, like, I love going to meetups, and I love seeing people, and it's and it's because, like, that's where that is where exchanges happen. That's where people buying stuff should happen. Right? Okay. I mean, so I agree that, I mean, we we we all should be
1294
01:57:44.145 --> 01:57:45.365
trying to build
1295
01:57:45.980 --> 01:57:48.720
those options. And I think, you know, if you look at
1296
01:57:49.500 --> 01:57:51.680
companies out there, and as an example,
1297
01:57:52.060 --> 01:57:53.360
you know, I I
1298
01:57:53.900 --> 01:57:56.864
so if one of my sponsors is Huddl Huddl. Right? So that's an example.
1299
01:57:57.804 --> 01:58:04.380
I'm also investing in other as an investor, I might invest in companies that are doing these kinds of things or helping people,
1300
01:58:04.920 --> 01:58:09.980
use or interact in no KYC or less KYC ways. So as an example,
1301
01:58:11.165 --> 01:58:14.784
you you know, as an investor, you might be as an example, like, Bitrefill
1302
01:58:15.085 --> 01:58:15.905
helps people
1303
01:58:16.364 --> 01:58:16.864
interact
1304
01:58:17.165 --> 01:58:35.305
without having to KYC everything. Right? You might be able to purchase things without KYC. So, you know, and I think, in in the context of community meetups and things like that, Right? As a as a meetup, I was a long time meetup organizer with Bitcoin Sydney, and when I'm in person, I'm teaching people, then I'm also talking
1305
01:58:35.800 --> 01:58:42.460
as part as one of the things I'm educating about is, hey. This is if you are interested in the non k y c option. So I think
1306
01:58:43.720 --> 01:58:45.020
for many of us
1307
01:58:49.685 --> 01:58:55.610
full prong. Right? I'm helping promote various projects that things more privately or use Bitcoin more privately. So
1308
01:58:57.350 --> 01:59:02.810
I I I think from my point of view, I'm just seeing it as there are multiple prongs that I'm trying to teach and push on
1309
01:59:03.175 --> 01:59:13.520
those different directions. So at least that's that's my answer. I mean, it is and and there is no changing this the the the adoption curve or or whatever.
1310
01:59:13.980 --> 01:59:14.780
There is no
1311
01:59:16.059 --> 01:59:19.760
you you haven't heard an answer as to how you stop people from initially doing KYC
1312
01:59:20.344 --> 01:59:21.304
because there isn't one,
1313
01:59:21.945 --> 01:59:29.949
because that's, I that's quite obviously the road that has been laid out before us. That's that's the nudge and the push and the
1314
01:59:30.570 --> 01:59:44.385
elbow over until we've got a nice open road right here. It's very simple. All you gotta do is, you know, take this cute little picture standing next to this piece of paper and wait, you know, 2 or 3 days, and that'll approve you. And then you're allowed to buy Bitcoin.
1315
01:59:44.820 --> 01:59:52.280
You know, just wait for wait to get approved, and then you're, you know, you're in this permissionless system. It's no. Actually, it's not permissionless.
1316
01:59:53.405 --> 01:59:59.265
K y c already is cutting people off. It's not, you know, a matter of in the future, when are we gonna stop people from,
1317
01:59:59.725 --> 02:00:04.130
you know, is KYC gonna get more restrictive and stop people? It already is. You know? Like,
1318
02:00:04.670 --> 02:00:08.275
yes, there's a philosophical point about it being exclusionary and
1319
02:00:08.835 --> 02:00:15.655
Bitcoin being inclusionary, but there's also a very real point that KYC actually does exclude people right now today
1320
02:00:15.970 --> 02:00:21.430
from, you know, partaking in society the way that they normally would. But the
1321
02:00:21.970 --> 02:00:23.030
all that beside,
1322
02:00:23.885 --> 02:00:28.465
this thing we're talking about is is Bitcoin, and it's so different
1323
02:00:28.845 --> 02:00:33.050
than stocks or real estate or anything else like this. Everybody
1324
02:00:33.989 --> 02:00:42.895
recognized that this this asset, this is a paradigm shift. This is not, you know, the same as having a KYC house or it's it's this is different.
1325
02:00:43.355 --> 02:00:47.614
This is the one thing that we can own, truly own.
1326
02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:50.579
And I just don't if there's a way
1327
02:00:51.280 --> 02:01:01.375
that once people are in, whether they come in through KYC or whether they never touch KYC, they first got some at a meetup one place, it it doesn't matter.
1328
02:01:01.915 --> 02:01:08.060
It doesn't matter how they got to this point. It's the point that I am trying to make about our about audiences
1329
02:01:08.600 --> 02:01:15.155
is when we're talking to the people we're talking to at the time we're talking to them, I just don't understand. Like, there's
1330
02:01:15.715 --> 02:01:28.210
we may be talking to them about Bitcoin, how Bitcoin works, how to hold your own keys, how to do all your stuff, But I've seriously doubt that anyone is going over the KYC procedure with them. It's just like it's not even discussed.
1331
02:01:28.565 --> 02:01:39.330
You don't talk about how, you know, you're gonna have to go and do this KYC procedure, and here's the best way to do it. Like, that's not that's not even discussed. We're talking about Bitcoin, how you own Bitcoin, how you transact with Bitcoin.
1332
02:01:39.790 --> 02:01:42.930
The KYC doesn't matter, and that's how it should be.
1333
02:01:43.310 --> 02:01:45.490
So I don't feel like we have to, like,
1334
02:01:46.245 --> 02:01:53.520
sway them away from the KYC option. Like, when you're discussing it with people, there's there is no discussion of KYC. It's only
1335
02:01:53.980 --> 02:02:01.680
later when, you know, if we have pointed them at Coinbase or pointed them at Kraken that, you know, then it pops up and it says, why what is this?
1336
02:02:03.534 --> 02:02:05.395
So where if they come in through Coinbase
1337
02:02:05.775 --> 02:02:08.710
as I did, not understanding what Bitcoin is,
1338
02:02:09.750 --> 02:02:18.170
fine. It doesn't it it that's that's that's I don't see the big issue with that. Obviously, I would love if it all just disappeared today, but that's not reality.
1339
02:02:18.555 --> 02:02:32.880
The reality is most people today are going to come in through pay y c. So knowing that reality, the way I deal with that is not by wishing it goes away. It's by wishing that we have as many people as possible in the communities.
1340
02:02:33.900 --> 02:02:45.205
As soon as these people join those communities, this is one of the first things that they see. That's the best I can do to fight back against it. That's how I deal with with k y c being a reality of our existence.
1341
02:02:50.970 --> 02:02:51.710
Go, Matt.
1342
02:02:58.304 --> 02:02:58.804
So,
1343
02:02:59.824 --> 02:03:01.045
I mean, this has been
1344
02:03:02.670 --> 02:03:05.170
a fucking fantastic conversation so far.
1345
02:03:06.670 --> 02:03:08.210
We're at the 2 hour point.
1346
02:03:10.165 --> 02:03:11.865
First of all, I appreciate you all.
1347
02:03:13.045 --> 02:03:13.285
Big
1348
02:03:14.085 --> 02:03:16.905
civil dispatch has been focused on actual discussion.
1349
02:03:17.400 --> 02:03:19.020
That is the the main,
1350
02:03:20.920 --> 02:03:21.420
reason
1351
02:03:21.960 --> 02:03:25.580
this show exists in the first place and why we come back every Bitcoin Tuesday.
1352
02:03:26.635 --> 02:03:27.534
I'd be curious
1353
02:03:28.074 --> 02:03:29.054
to go over,
1354
02:03:29.755 --> 02:03:30.494
the basics,
1355
02:03:31.114 --> 02:03:31.934
for someone
1356
02:03:32.395 --> 02:03:36.430
who has listened to this conversation for the last 2 hours and is interested
1357
02:03:37.290 --> 02:03:40.510
in not providing their intimate personal information
1358
02:03:40.970 --> 02:03:42.110
to acquire Bitcoin,
1359
02:03:43.145 --> 02:03:44.844
How might they go about that?
1360
02:03:45.145 --> 02:03:49.165
I I figured either Diverter or Zelco can jump in here and
1361
02:03:49.890 --> 02:03:53.910
and go through their their list of advice in that in that regard.
1362
02:03:54.450 --> 02:03:55.350
Sure. There's
1363
02:03:56.290 --> 02:03:58.470
many different ways depending on on
1364
02:03:58.955 --> 02:03:59.695
your situation,
1365
02:04:00.554 --> 02:04:02.895
and and where you reside in the world.
1366
02:04:03.994 --> 02:04:06.415
It's certainly not as easy as,
1367
02:04:07.270 --> 02:04:20.065
finding a KYC exchange, but, you know, I would argue the KYC procedure is, you know, a pretty big inconvenience in itself. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's more inconvenient, but it's certainly easier to find exchanges,
1368
02:04:20.925 --> 02:04:22.545
to buy KYC Bitcoin.
1369
02:04:23.165 --> 02:04:24.525
The problem with,
1370
02:04:24.925 --> 02:04:25.790
a lot of these
1371
02:04:26.590 --> 02:04:28.930
peer to peer type exchanges many times,
1372
02:04:30.510 --> 02:04:31.010
is
1373
02:04:31.710 --> 02:04:33.810
we're purposely stepping outside,
1374
02:04:35.035 --> 02:04:35.935
government regulation.
1375
02:04:36.715 --> 02:04:37.615
That's that's
1376
02:04:38.075 --> 02:04:40.655
the reason that we're doing it. So the
1377
02:04:40.955 --> 02:04:44.095
the it's great, but the bad part about that is,
1378
02:04:44.860 --> 02:04:47.360
it still has to be regulated. It's gotta be regulated
1379
02:04:47.739 --> 02:04:48.239
somehow.
1380
02:04:48.540 --> 02:04:52.639
So we have to regulate that ourselves. So that's where these reputation
1381
02:04:53.285 --> 02:04:55.304
systems, you know, come into play,
1382
02:04:56.245 --> 02:05:04.070
and it's where things like escrow happen. And the reason I mentioned this is because when you go to a site, like, say, you wanted to purchase your 1st Bitcoin
1383
02:05:04.449 --> 02:05:05.989
and you pull up DISC.
1384
02:05:06.690 --> 02:05:07.190
Alright?
1385
02:05:07.650 --> 02:05:13.995
You're not gonna be able to purchase your 1st Bitcoin at DISC. Because on this, you're gonna need a little bit of Bitcoin
1386
02:05:14.375 --> 02:05:16.635
in order to put up for the security deposit
1387
02:05:17.015 --> 02:05:18.475
to then make your trade.
1388
02:05:18.890 --> 02:05:21.949
So this is already out as a first touch.
1389
02:05:23.130 --> 02:05:23.630
But,
1390
02:05:24.170 --> 02:05:33.130
you know, obviously, there's plenty of ways you seed yourself, friends, family, meetups, whatever you wanted to do. You know, I've actually seeded a couple of people on Twitter, believe this or not,
1391
02:05:33.850 --> 02:05:35.870
and I actually gave you my stats back.
1392
02:05:36.570 --> 02:05:37.070
But,
1393
02:05:38.010 --> 02:05:42.030
it's it's it Biscuit is not the easiest thing in the world. It's not the easiest thing to run.
1394
02:05:42.485 --> 02:05:44.505
You have, as Stefan mentioned,
1395
02:05:45.445 --> 02:05:51.385
one of his sponsors, HODO HODL, and I I really like HODL HODL. They are a little bit different in that
1396
02:05:51.960 --> 02:06:00.620
BISK is what you would actually call a true peer to peer exchange. Like, there is no 2 of 3 multisig. It's a 2 of 2. It's just you and your peer.
1397
02:06:01.705 --> 02:06:10.284
In this, they're gonna hold one of the keys in that transaction. So you can actually go through the process of buying Bitcoin, and you don't actually have to have
1398
02:06:12.219 --> 02:06:14.719
Bitcoin necessarily in order to do that there.
1399
02:06:15.180 --> 02:06:15.680
So
1400
02:06:16.700 --> 02:06:17.440
the real
1401
02:06:17.955 --> 02:06:18.455
problem,
1402
02:06:19.395 --> 02:06:23.975
initially, with coming into Bitcoin OKYC, if you're coming fresh with nothing,
1403
02:06:24.995 --> 02:06:38.625
is that you're probably going to need a little bit of Bitcoin to make it easier in order to get there. So that's a real problem. That's why, you know, like I've said, I I don't think that the the vast majority of people will come in through KYC.
1404
02:06:39.724 --> 02:06:44.840
But once you're ready to go to the no KYC route, you've got this, you've got HODL HODL,
1405
02:06:46.020 --> 02:06:46.740
you've got,
1406
02:06:47.380 --> 02:06:47.880
ATMs
1407
02:06:48.340 --> 02:06:49.780
depending on where you're at.
1408
02:06:50.260 --> 02:06:52.280
Some of these ATMs, you can
1409
02:06:52.695 --> 02:06:56.315
accomplish buying Bitcoin up to certain amounts without having to provide
1410
02:06:56.695 --> 02:06:57.515
any identification.
1411
02:06:58.775 --> 02:07:02.739
There's a couple articles. There's some great there's a great, article on bitcoiner.guide,
1412
02:07:03.840 --> 02:07:10.835
bitcoin q and a site that goes over, 10 steps, I believe it is to purchase your first no KYC sats.
1413
02:07:12.655 --> 02:07:17.840
So there's there's many different ways. You can go on a coin ATM radar, search an ATM. You can hit a meetup,
1414
02:07:18.140 --> 02:07:24.320
you know, many different ways. But the main ones are gonna be peer to peer online exchanges like this, huddlehuddle,
1415
02:07:24.780 --> 02:07:33.985
local coin swap. And that's why, you know, again, I'd I'd like to see more of these. I'd like to see them more robust and and become just easier to use. So first of all,
1416
02:07:34.844 --> 02:07:38.090
I mean, that was a good answer. Diverter, I think, was a little bit wordy.
1417
02:07:39.590 --> 02:07:42.410
You don't you don't do this twice a week like I do.
1418
02:07:43.665 --> 02:07:48.485
First of all first of all, if you're a Bitcoiner listening to this and you're onboarding friends and family,
1419
02:07:49.185 --> 02:07:56.230
you know, don't don't send them a link to sign up to a KYC exchange exchange if they're interested in Bitcoin. Like, the first thing you should do is
1420
02:07:57.010 --> 02:07:58.950
have them pay for dinner with their fiat,
1421
02:07:59.410 --> 02:08:05.175
and pay them in Bitcoin. Have them self custody it. Have them actually appreciate Bitcoin for what it truly is.
1422
02:08:06.435 --> 02:08:11.980
On onboard them in a responsible way. If they're your friends or family, like, if there's someone you care about, do that.
1423
02:08:12.520 --> 02:08:14.220
The Bitcoin ATM point,
1424
02:08:14.680 --> 02:08:16.300
that Diverter mentioned there
1425
02:08:16.715 --> 02:08:18.175
is grossly understated.
1426
02:08:18.955 --> 02:08:24.495
At least in most of the United States, there are ATMs that only require a phone number to purchase Bitcoin.
1427
02:08:24.930 --> 02:08:27.190
Now they're gonna charge you a little bit more money.
1428
02:08:29.010 --> 02:08:34.150
You know, you're not giving up your privacy, so instead, you're gonna pay a slight premium on the Bitcoin.
1429
02:08:34.755 --> 02:08:39.175
They will require a phone number most of the time. You can use a service like silent.link,
1430
02:08:41.155 --> 02:08:47.170
to get a burner phone number with coin, or you can go and pay cash at one of those, you know,
1431
02:08:48.110 --> 02:08:48.610
little,
1432
02:08:49.230 --> 02:08:53.225
cell phone stores. Usually, you're you're better off if you're gonna buy a prepaid
1433
02:08:53.845 --> 02:09:00.310
SIM to buy it, at one of those small, like, cell phone specific stores rather than, like, a Best Buy or something like that.
1434
02:09:01.350 --> 02:09:06.330
We have mining. I had diverter on for civil dispatch 31 civil dispatch.com
1435
02:09:07.485 --> 02:09:07.985
/cd31,
1436
02:09:08.765 --> 02:09:11.665
or in your favorite podcast app, just go to episode 31.
1437
02:09:12.205 --> 02:09:14.225
We talk about getting started with home mining.
1438
02:09:14.845 --> 02:09:16.945
You can accept Bitcoin for goods and services.
1439
02:09:17.640 --> 02:09:18.680
You know, we have these
1440
02:09:19.240 --> 02:09:27.020
we have this this this concept, I don't know, that that Bitcorners can figure out cold storage, that normies can figure out cold storage,
1441
02:09:27.705 --> 02:09:30.045
they can figure out how to run a lightning node,
1442
02:09:30.825 --> 02:09:34.585
but they can't figure out how to accept Bitcoin for goods and services. Like, there
1443
02:09:35.200 --> 02:09:41.860
when I lived in New York, there were bodegas that were just basically cash only businesses. Why were they cash only businesses?
1444
02:09:43.585 --> 02:09:51.205
I mean, you could read between the lines there. They fucking figured it out, and they wanted they wanted better money that wasn't being tracked and wasn't being surveilled.
1445
02:09:52.489 --> 02:09:56.030
So there are a bunch of options available to people to acquire Bitcoin
1446
02:09:56.969 --> 02:09:57.469
without
1447
02:09:58.090 --> 02:10:03.525
providing intimate personal information that can be accessed by criminals that can be used against you in the future.
1448
02:10:04.465 --> 02:10:07.205
And I think it's prudent for every Bitcoiner
1449
02:10:07.824 --> 02:10:12.920
to basically, as they're going through this onboarding process, as they're helping friends and family,
1450
02:10:14.420 --> 02:10:16.120
escape this failed system,
1451
02:10:16.580 --> 02:10:20.665
that they do so in a in a responsible way. And and to just say that
1452
02:10:20.985 --> 02:10:23.645
that it's completely lost, that the fight is lost
1453
02:10:24.025 --> 02:10:26.765
is is a loser's ideology because, ultimately,
1454
02:10:27.385 --> 02:10:32.790
it's only gonna get worse from here. I mean, it's been said multiple times over this last 2 hours
1455
02:10:33.330 --> 02:10:34.710
that no KYC
1456
02:10:35.090 --> 02:10:37.830
was a fundamental part of Bitcoin culture
1457
02:10:38.275 --> 02:10:42.775
up until 2017, 2018. It fucking turned. It turned super fucking quick.
1458
02:10:43.555 --> 02:10:54.170
And Bitcoin Twitter, I think, was a large part of that. It was a large part of people being scared to talk about it, and and being scared of being persecuted and prosecuted and fucking
1459
02:10:54.725 --> 02:10:55.945
thrown under the bus,
1460
02:10:56.324 --> 02:10:59.385
which, to be quite honest, I'm scared about all the time.
1461
02:10:59.764 --> 02:11:02.585
But if we're gonna actually sit here and talk about
1462
02:11:03.600 --> 02:11:05.300
this being a worthy fight,
1463
02:11:05.600 --> 02:11:10.739
then let's actually make it a worthy fight, because it only gets worse from here, and the only thing
1464
02:11:11.065 --> 02:11:13.165
standing between it getting absolutely
1465
02:11:13.705 --> 02:11:14.685
worse from here
1466
02:11:15.145 --> 02:11:19.245
is us. Like, there's nobody else standing between that from happening.
1467
02:11:19.560 --> 02:11:23.020
Because if you don't think that there are gonna be more restrictions on regulated
1468
02:11:23.480 --> 02:11:23.980
services
1469
02:11:24.520 --> 02:11:25.260
going forward,
1470
02:11:25.960 --> 02:11:29.020
where the fuck have you been for the last 2 years?
1471
02:11:29.505 --> 02:11:30.645
Everyone just fucking
1472
02:11:30.945 --> 02:11:39.125
rolled over as small businesses got crushed, as privacy got crushed, as freedom of movement got crushed, as freedom of speech got crushed,
1473
02:11:39.610 --> 02:11:44.110
and nobody cares about Bitcoin. The overwhelming majority of people don't care about Bitcoin,
1474
02:11:44.570 --> 02:11:45.630
except for us.
1475
02:11:46.010 --> 02:11:48.830
It comes down to us, and it comes down to personal responsibility.
1476
02:11:49.675 --> 02:11:57.935
I mean, it it like, I mean, divergence is the best. Right? Like, when when you're talking about being a fighter, but it's, like, how willing is the
1477
02:11:58.940 --> 02:12:00.320
the majority of Bitcoiners,
1478
02:12:00.860 --> 02:12:04.000
right, willing to defend their their Bitcoin
1479
02:12:04.460 --> 02:12:14.605
when the state comes knocking on your door? Right? Like, that's really what it comes down to. Like, I am hard pressed to believe that many people are gonna have the state come knock on your door,
1480
02:12:15.710 --> 02:12:28.145
and you just say, oh, like, it was a it was a boating accident. Like, that that whole narrative was obviously a meme, but, like, people actually believed it, you know, and it and it comes down to like that,
1481
02:12:28.925 --> 02:12:35.969
what we say, and especially like those who have a lot of followers, like what you say and how you say it, like, those things matter. You know? Because,
1482
02:12:36.750 --> 02:12:43.170
you know, it's trying to write off your KYC as a, oh, it's boating accident or, oh, it it I lost it.
1483
02:12:43.585 --> 02:12:54.530
Like, I don't have it anymore. Like, if you think that that's that means that you're not accountable for it, like, we're wrong. You know? Like, KYC is forever. It doesn't matter what you what you do after that.
1484
02:12:54.909 --> 02:13:03.085
Like, it doesn't matter at all. 0%. It doesn't matter. Like, you you like, if you the state's coming for you, they're gonna come for you. And
1485
02:13:03.545 --> 02:13:05.085
if your stats are KYC'd,
1486
02:13:06.344 --> 02:13:10.800
you know, like, what are you gonna do? And you have to ask yourself that. I can't answer that for anybody.
1487
02:13:11.260 --> 02:13:13.120
I can only answer that for myself.
1488
02:13:13.900 --> 02:13:14.400
But
1489
02:13:14.940 --> 02:13:22.305
what what are you willing to do? And if you're a a Bitcoiner and you believe in the ethos, you believe in what Bitcoin is about, you believe in,
1490
02:13:23.485 --> 02:13:25.745
you know, what this movement is for,
1491
02:13:26.445 --> 02:13:26.945
then
1492
02:13:27.790 --> 02:13:37.435
you need to be ready to fight. And if you're not ready to fight, then it might not be time for you, and that's okay. You know? Like but if I'm on Twitter and you're fighting me saying that, you know,
1493
02:13:37.975 --> 02:13:40.395
KYC is the is the path to
1494
02:13:40.775 --> 02:13:41.435
to enlightenment,
1495
02:13:42.295 --> 02:13:55.395
like, you're wrong. Like, I'm not like, I and I don't think either I don't think anybody on here has came up and said, KYC is the way. That's not been the argument that anybody had, so don't take that personally. But,
1496
02:13:55.855 --> 02:14:01.074
like, I I see it. I see it online, and it is mind blowing. It's disheartening,
1497
02:14:01.989 --> 02:14:03.050
you know, because,
1498
02:14:03.750 --> 02:14:06.650
you know, maybe this is just strong from, like, the privacy,
1499
02:14:07.270 --> 02:14:09.449
you know, sector of Bitcoin, but, like,
1500
02:14:09.755 --> 02:14:16.815
when you're, like, seeing this stuff and you're we're so focused on, like, trying to make Bitcoin what it what it was,
1501
02:14:17.355 --> 02:14:18.735
trying to maintain that
1502
02:14:19.320 --> 02:14:21.740
ideology of what Bitcoin was all about,
1503
02:14:23.000 --> 02:14:32.815
and then people are online just saying, like, oh, like, just hold just hold until the state dies, and, you know, just say it was a boating accident if they come for you. Like, that is insane.
1504
02:14:33.195 --> 02:14:40.050
And that's why I asked that question earlier. Right? Like, how much regulation on the KYC and how many people need to be shut down
1505
02:14:40.350 --> 02:14:47.815
or not not allowed to buy, you know, like, the how many people try to ask permission to buy Bitcoin on a KYC exchange and get denied until
1506
02:14:48.275 --> 02:14:54.534
until everyone stops and says, oh, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't be pushing KYC anymore. Maybe we should
1507
02:14:55.050 --> 02:14:56.350
be changing our mindset.
1508
02:14:56.890 --> 02:15:01.870
So, you know, like, that that's synonymous, you know, peer to peer transactions.
1509
02:15:02.925 --> 02:15:03.985
Like, that's gone.
1510
02:15:04.445 --> 02:15:10.705
At the end of the day, if we were to to play this all the way out, if KYC is the end, if every set is KYC,
1511
02:15:11.940 --> 02:15:14.760
where where what do we have? Is it Bitcoin?
1512
02:15:16.739 --> 02:15:26.514
You know, there's there's trillions of regulated wealth that's going to be coming into Bitcoin. And and most of the actors behind that wealth, they're not necessarily
1513
02:15:26.815 --> 02:15:32.579
interested in defeating the state. What they wanna do is survive the state, if that makes sense.
1514
02:15:33.119 --> 02:15:33.520
And,
1515
02:15:34.239 --> 02:15:37.139
you know, at the same time, I think there's a growing
1516
02:15:37.955 --> 02:15:38.455
remnant,
1517
02:15:39.155 --> 02:15:48.330
who really want to create the Bitcoin era, and I think we should contribute to that. And and and but, you know, it's it is a progression, and we just have to play it
1518
02:15:48.949 --> 02:15:51.369
to the end that we wanna see.
1519
02:15:54.025 --> 02:15:56.685
Thank you, guys. I mean, I I think this has been
1520
02:15:57.225 --> 02:16:01.030
a a really productive conversation. I appreciate you all for joining us.
1521
02:16:01.590 --> 02:16:03.770
I hope the freaks enjoyed it.
1522
02:16:04.789 --> 02:16:05.929
I know I did.
1523
02:16:06.789 --> 02:16:14.375
I I think, you know, we're hit we're hitting the 2 hour and 15 minute mark. I'm starting to feel for Stefan a little bit because I know his time zone.
1524
02:16:15.075 --> 02:16:19.415
I think we should wrap this baby up. I'm gonna proceed with final thoughts.
1525
02:16:20.290 --> 02:16:22.310
Final thoughts. Stefan, we'll start with you.
1526
02:16:23.250 --> 02:16:39.640
Yeah. Sure. So thanks again. I think the way I'm seeing it, I see this as a battle that has to be fought on multiple fronts. I believe I know I I don't like politics. I wish we could live in a world that was fully free market, but I think part of that is
1527
02:16:40.420 --> 02:16:55.050
growing that base and energizing and doing anything you can to educate and promote and help that remnant base of people, the ones who are gonna fight it and the ones who are gonna try to do something about this, whether that's in the non KYC world or in the KYC world. So
1528
02:16:55.590 --> 02:17:03.369
I see this as trying to build out the tools that's ideally the open source software and hardware, the technology, as well as businesses
1529
02:17:03.725 --> 02:17:04.864
that are helping people,
1530
02:17:06.125 --> 02:17:11.744
you know, enable them in some way in terms of Bitcoin education or stacking SATs or
1531
02:17:12.150 --> 02:17:15.690
whatever it is, whether that's, you know, earning and using your own,
1532
02:17:16.150 --> 02:17:18.891
node to stack your SATS by selling your services.
1533
02:17:19.635 --> 02:17:22.695
I think those are things that we can focus on.
1534
02:17:23.315 --> 02:17:26.215
So, yeah, so I think those are probably the key
1535
02:17:27.020 --> 02:17:31.520
messages I would leave for people out there. And, of course, if people wanna find me, that's stephanlovera.com,
1536
02:17:32.141 --> 02:17:33.761
and you can find me on Twitter at stephanlovera.
1537
02:17:35.096 --> 02:17:35.915
Thanks, Stefan.
1538
02:17:36.855 --> 02:17:38.235
Diverter, final thoughts?
1539
02:17:42.400 --> 02:17:42.900
Yeah.
1540
02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:47.061
Sure. I thought I was sure you were gonna save the best for last.
1541
02:17:48.240 --> 02:17:50.420
Caught me off guard there. Yeah. Absolutely.
1542
02:17:52.515 --> 02:17:59.015
No. But seriously, it's been a it's been a good conversation. I appreciate you all coming on here. Stefan, laser, hold on.
1543
02:18:00.260 --> 02:18:04.120
It's it's it's not easy to come on and have these conversations and especially
1544
02:18:05.060 --> 02:18:08.020
when you have the potential to be on the side that, you know,
1545
02:18:08.655 --> 02:18:12.755
doesn't look so great. So I appreciate you guys coming on here and and articulating
1546
02:18:13.056 --> 02:18:13.715
your positions.
1547
02:18:14.016 --> 02:18:14.915
Stefan, obviously,
1548
02:18:15.855 --> 02:18:19.471
you do great work. Appreciate you having me on the podcast and all the stuff that you do.
1549
02:18:20.011 --> 02:18:21.530
Hope you keep it up. Laser,
1550
02:18:22.330 --> 02:18:28.725
I appreciate your takes as well, man. I hope I could pull you on over the no KYC side and and get you all the way over here.
1551
02:18:29.745 --> 02:18:36.300
But I appreciate the conversation. I just hope everybody takes into account all of the factors whenever they,
1552
02:18:37.000 --> 02:18:41.899
really start getting into Bitcoin and and understanding what it is that they're in here for,
1553
02:18:42.360 --> 02:18:42.860
and
1554
02:18:44.375 --> 02:18:46.635
what that means down the road potentially.
1555
02:18:47.095 --> 02:19:00.840
If this is a speculative asset for you and you don't necessarily care about anything else that that's you're perfectly you know, it's a permissionless network for a reason. Everybody can have their piece of this from corporations on down to anybody.
1556
02:19:02.015 --> 02:19:06.675
But anybody that I talk to that I that I have the ability to speak to about Bitcoin,
1557
02:19:07.615 --> 02:19:09.795
it's gonna be a a a paramount.
1558
02:19:10.690 --> 02:19:17.030
One of the most important things that I discussed with them is that it's important to be able to be fully permissionless
1559
02:19:17.970 --> 02:19:19.430
and not have to,
1560
02:19:20.284 --> 02:19:22.864
register anything that you do with the state
1561
02:19:23.805 --> 02:19:24.944
just so that
1562
02:19:25.404 --> 02:19:27.744
what you own, you truly own
1563
02:19:28.270 --> 02:19:40.115
from now till wherever you decide to part with it. So it's been a great conversation, guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Denver. I truly appreciate your work. I appreciate your voice. It was a pleasure to meet you finally in person,
1564
02:19:40.735 --> 02:19:42.035
a couple months back.
1565
02:19:44.016 --> 02:19:49.510
And I Yep. We'll do that again soon. Fuck yes. I was gonna say I look forward to, doing it again soon.
1566
02:19:50.689 --> 02:19:51.909
Laser, final thoughts.
1567
02:19:55.455 --> 02:19:56.096
Let's see.
1568
02:19:56.495 --> 02:19:59.715
Well, it was great. And it's not hard being on the,
1569
02:20:00.415 --> 02:20:10.185
the descending side. I think, you know, everyone here wants to see default forward privacy. Everyone here wants to see folks building a no KYC stash. Everyone here wants to see,
1570
02:20:10.585 --> 02:20:12.444
KYC and just government,
1571
02:20:13.704 --> 02:20:17.805
you know, white knuckled grip on on financial surveillance,
1572
02:20:18.520 --> 02:20:27.820
be deteriorated so that the individual and families are free. We're talking about how to do that. My view is just that I don't think it's I don't think the state disappears overnight.
1573
02:20:28.235 --> 02:20:28.815
I think,
1574
02:20:29.275 --> 02:20:33.695
you know, we should have a remnant because that's important to game theory and we should grow that.
1575
02:20:34.795 --> 02:20:36.335
And we should have this irreversible,
1576
02:20:36.875 --> 02:20:37.375
unstoppable
1577
02:20:37.700 --> 02:20:41.880
escape hatch, and we should grow that as people move down the, Bitcoin progression.
1578
02:20:42.260 --> 02:20:44.680
But at the same time, like, a lot of the big boy,
1579
02:20:45.535 --> 02:20:46.355
stuff happens,
1580
02:20:47.375 --> 02:20:57.020
in the game theory of mass adoption. And that's why, you know, that's why I think through politics even though I don't love politics. I think through it because I think it's important.
1581
02:20:57.560 --> 02:20:58.700
The the legitimization
1582
02:20:59.240 --> 02:21:01.186
of Bitcoin, I think, is a underappreciated,
1583
02:21:03.425 --> 02:21:03.925
geopolitical,
1584
02:21:05.105 --> 02:21:08.485
strategy for what we're after. So, you know, I
1585
02:21:08.900 --> 02:21:14.040
I I sit in this interesting place where I'm creating a remnant, but I'm speaking to conservative families.
1586
02:21:15.141 --> 02:21:18.155
You know. So I do appreciate the privacy NIMs.
1587
02:21:19.274 --> 02:21:20.015
So thanks.
1588
02:21:21.274 --> 02:21:23.695
Thanks, Lazer. Final thoughts, Zelco.
1589
02:21:25.290 --> 02:21:30.830
Well, first, yeah, thanks for everybody coming on and defending your guys' positions and,
1590
02:21:31.290 --> 02:21:34.346
just kinda talking about it. And, again, I I think it's pretty apparent
1591
02:21:34.726 --> 02:21:35.226
that,
1592
02:21:36.886 --> 02:21:41.465
it's acknowledged that no KYC Bitcoin is greater than, KYC Bitcoin,
1593
02:21:41.766 --> 02:21:42.266
but,
1594
02:21:43.640 --> 02:21:46.300
you know, and and, yeah, everyone does care about forward,
1595
02:21:46.680 --> 02:21:47.500
forward privacy,
1596
02:21:47.960 --> 02:21:51.020
which, of course, you only get with, Sam or Walts, Whirlpool.
1597
02:21:53.274 --> 02:21:56.335
But, you know, that said, I think it was really great discussion,
1598
02:21:56.715 --> 02:21:57.034
and,
1599
02:21:57.675 --> 02:21:58.494
you know, hopefully,
1600
02:22:00.400 --> 02:22:06.180
my goal is really just that people are, like, conscious and, and cognizant of, like, how they're
1601
02:22:06.695 --> 02:22:13.515
how they're onboarding people. You know? Don't sell their souls for the devil nuts, and that's not, like, just for anybody on here, and that's that's not
1602
02:22:14.180 --> 02:22:20.600
an attack on anybody in particular. But, like, just understand that, like, when it comes down to it, push comes to shove,
1603
02:22:21.380 --> 02:22:24.495
you know, the the state's gonna come for come for their money.
1604
02:22:25.435 --> 02:22:25.935
So,
1605
02:22:26.475 --> 02:22:28.734
you know, let's opt out the right way.
1606
02:22:29.114 --> 02:22:32.095
So, yeah, I, I had a great talk, and
1607
02:22:32.510 --> 02:22:35.330
I definitely hope to meet up with all you guys again,
1608
02:22:36.029 --> 02:22:37.729
what, at Miami, probably. And,
1609
02:22:38.910 --> 02:22:42.125
and, yeah, it was a it was a good time. Oh, by the way,
1610
02:22:43.385 --> 02:22:43.545
our,
1611
02:22:44.265 --> 02:22:46.425
our run dojo tantos, we're gonna be
1612
02:22:47.710 --> 02:22:51.410
we just sold out of our 1st batch to the US, but the EU and UK
1613
02:22:51.950 --> 02:22:56.450
will be, will be coming soon. So, stay tuned for announcements for that to get released.
1614
02:22:57.305 --> 02:23:02.125
Super excited, and we got some other fun stuff about to pull out. So I had to give a little shout out to my team for that.
1615
02:23:02.665 --> 02:23:05.005
You couldn't help yourself. I was about to give you
1616
02:23:05.520 --> 02:23:06.020
a.
1617
02:23:08.000 --> 02:23:09.300
Thank thank you, Zelco.
1618
02:23:09.680 --> 02:23:16.505
Zelco is is one of the main guys behind the Ronin Dojo project, and they just released this Tanto node,
1619
02:23:18.005 --> 02:23:22.105
which is it's like a pure block of steel. This thing is fucking awesome.
1620
02:23:23.739 --> 02:23:25.920
Definitely go check that out. What is that? RoninDojo.
1621
02:23:26.300 --> 02:23:26.800
Io?
1622
02:23:29.100 --> 02:23:33.375
Yeah. We're actually about to release a brand new, completely redesigned site, but,
1623
02:23:33.854 --> 02:23:36.354
yeah, you can check it all out at, shop.runendojo.io
1624
02:23:38.300 --> 02:23:40.080
or, yeah, our main site's atrundojo.io.
1625
02:23:41.020 --> 02:23:41.520
But,
1626
02:23:42.220 --> 02:23:52.710
stay tuned for that announcement of the new website. It's gonna be, it's gonna be pretty. And I had the pleasure of meeting, Zelco and his his whole family at Bitblock Boom this year. So,
1627
02:23:54.150 --> 02:23:56.390
that was that was truly a pleasure, and,
1628
02:23:57.430 --> 02:24:00.970
it it was an honor. And I look forward to, kicking with you in Miami
1629
02:24:01.575 --> 02:24:04.314
and Absolutely. Hopefully many years to come.
1630
02:24:04.935 --> 02:24:05.755
So, guys,
1631
02:24:06.854 --> 02:24:10.635
to all the guests, thank you so much for participating in in dispatch.
1632
02:24:11.641 --> 02:24:17.260
I know it's a very unique experience. Huge shout out to the rider to die freaks who joined us in the live chat.
1633
02:24:19.186 --> 02:24:22.485
Reminder to everyone listening to this on the podcast feeds
1634
02:24:22.945 --> 02:24:26.165
that this will be the last show on the TFTC
1635
02:24:26.830 --> 02:24:36.585
podcast feed. So if you want to continue listening on podcast feeds, you're gonna have to open up your podcast app and search Silly Dispatch and subscribe to the dispatch specific feed.
1636
02:24:38.245 --> 02:24:39.465
Also, another reminder
1637
02:24:39.766 --> 02:24:40.266
that,
1638
02:24:40.885 --> 02:24:43.385
the chat has now moved to matrix,
1639
02:24:44.250 --> 02:24:44.989
open source.
1640
02:24:46.170 --> 02:24:46.829
Good news.
1641
02:24:48.729 --> 02:24:50.109
You can find that at citadel.chat,
1642
02:24:50.865 --> 02:24:57.525
and that conversation continues throughout the whole week, not just on Bitcoin Tuesdays. It's a very lively discussion. We have almost
1643
02:24:58.120 --> 02:25:02.300
500 ride or die freaks in there right now, so definitely come check it out.
1644
02:25:02.920 --> 02:25:08.135
And with all that said, I love you all. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for coming. Cheers.
1645
02:25:27.915 --> 02:25:32.655
Run, boy, run. This world is not bad for you. Run, boy, run.
1646
02:25:33.035 --> 02:25:33.270
They're
1647
02:26:00.635 --> 02:26:02.975
by running. Break out from society.
1648
02:28:48.940 --> 02:28:49.921
Love you, freaks.
1649
02:28:50.700 --> 02:28:52.320
We have a wrap up all recap
1650
02:28:52.806 --> 02:28:53.466
on Thursday,
1651
02:28:54.165 --> 02:28:56.745
and, we have another Bitcoin Tuesday,
1652
02:28:57.205 --> 02:28:58.025
next Tuesday,
1653
02:28:58.806 --> 02:29:04.450
with 2 Venezuelan Bitcoiners. This should be a really great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Just remember,
1654
02:29:05.870 --> 02:29:11.410
no one no one else is gonna do shit for you. At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal responsibility,
1655
02:29:12.385 --> 02:29:17.685
and you're gonna have to figure it out yourself. You're gonna have to understand the trade offs. You're gonna have to make your own decisions,
1656
02:29:18.785 --> 02:29:20.165
and it's not gonna be easy.
1657
02:29:20.870 --> 02:29:22.170
There will probably be darkness.
1658
02:29:23.510 --> 02:29:25.930
But if we do it right, we can make that darkness
1659
02:29:27.030 --> 02:29:32.314
as minimal as possible and get through it together. I love you all. Stay humble. Stacksides.
1660
02:29:33.415 --> 02:29:34.395
Thank you, savvy.
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 8:29:34 PM
Duration: 8975.308
Channels: 1
1
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.060
2
00:00:05.520 --> 00:00:09.620
America's economy is closed to them. The ladder has been pulled up and they know it.
3
00:00:10.405 --> 00:00:13.625
Our elderly political class should care about this. They don't care at all.
4
00:00:14.165 --> 00:00:28.875
Here's 68 year old Paul Krugman explaining on Twitter that growing inflation is not a big deal. Quote, is there any good reason to believe that inflation hits low income households especially hard, end quote? Well, yes, Paul. There are in fact quite a few good reasons to think that. Like, look around, Dumbo,
5
00:00:29.495 --> 00:00:34.395
but he hasn't and he won't. Keep in mind, this man once won the Nobel Prize for Economics.
6
00:00:35.700 --> 00:00:37.960
So we're mocking Paul Krugman, but imagine
7
00:00:38.420 --> 00:00:48.745
what he sounds like to young people. Imagine how this sounds to a 30 year old, someone still living with roommates, someone who's too poor to get married, too poor to have kids, too poor to start an adult life.
8
00:00:49.524 --> 00:00:52.024
There are many young Americans in that position.
9
00:00:52.890 --> 00:01:01.550
If you wanted to set the stage for a revolution, this is exactly the kind of way you would talk, and it's exactly the kind of society you would create. It is deeply unwise.
10
00:01:38.545 --> 00:01:40.405
11
00:01:40.705 --> 00:01:43.765
It's your boy O'Dell here for Citadel dispatch 51.
12
00:01:44.549 --> 00:01:50.250
Citadel dispatch is an interactive live show about Bitcoin distributed systems, privacy, and open source software.
13
00:01:51.430 --> 00:01:52.810
To ring in the new year,
14
00:01:53.155 --> 00:01:57.255
we got some we got 2 big changes that I wanna let you guys know about ahead of time.
15
00:01:58.675 --> 00:02:01.395
The first one is this will be the last,
16
00:02:01.875 --> 00:02:02.375
dispatch
17
00:02:02.700 --> 00:02:04.480
that is available on the TFTC
18
00:02:05.020 --> 00:02:09.120
podcast feed. So if you're listening to this on the TFTC podcast feed,
19
00:02:09.660 --> 00:02:18.465
open up your podcast app, search little dispatch, and press subscribe because that's the only way you will be able to get dispatches going forward. I have a very good lineup
20
00:02:18.845 --> 00:02:20.224
over the next few weeks,
21
00:02:21.150 --> 00:02:22.290
that I'm very excited,
22
00:02:22.670 --> 00:02:25.890
to share with you guys. Some very good discussions are gonna happen.
23
00:02:26.670 --> 00:02:33.385
The second major change is I have moved the audience chat over to Matrix, a distributed self hosted,
24
00:02:34.405 --> 00:02:35.625
free and open source
25
00:02:36.260 --> 00:02:37.560
chat solution,
26
00:02:38.500 --> 00:02:42.600
that is federated, so you can run your own server, you can connect to our server,
27
00:02:44.025 --> 00:02:47.725
you can use whatever server you want, and you can communicate that way.
28
00:02:48.105 --> 00:02:49.965
That chat is located at citadel.chat.
29
00:02:50.585 --> 00:02:56.060
So if you wanna participate in the live audience conversation going forward, you're gonna wanna go to citadel.chat.
30
00:02:56.680 --> 00:03:01.075
If you're gonna wanna listen to the podcast feeds going forward, you're gonna have to search CITL dispatch
31
00:03:01.375 --> 00:03:03.155
in your favorite podcast app.
32
00:03:04.655 --> 00:03:08.034
If you are commenting through YouTube, Twitter, or Twitch,
33
00:03:08.890 --> 00:03:10.989
I can see your comments still.
34
00:03:12.010 --> 00:03:12.989
So I will
35
00:03:13.290 --> 00:03:13.790
highlight
36
00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:19.614
key comments, but the main chat is gonna be, in in matrix on sidolil.chat.
37
00:03:21.754 --> 00:03:23.295
Huge shout out to our supporters.
38
00:03:23.834 --> 00:03:25.055
Dispatch is a 100%
39
00:03:25.355 --> 00:03:26.334
audience funded.
40
00:03:27.010 --> 00:03:41.205
You guys make it possible to keep Dispatch ad free without sponsors and purely focused on actionable Bitcoin discussions, so cheers to you. The easiest way to support the show is through podcasting 2 point o apps. My two favorites are Font Fountain Podcasts
41
00:03:42.010 --> 00:03:43.390
and Breeze Wallet.
42
00:03:43.850 --> 00:03:55.765
It acts like a regular podcast app. You search Zillow Dispatch, you load it up with sats, those sats go straight to my node. You can also support the show through my samurai Pay NIM, also Sparo Wallet compatible now.
43
00:03:56.305 --> 00:03:57.605
That Pay NIM is Odell
44
00:03:58.230 --> 00:03:59.050
or through,
45
00:03:59.750 --> 00:04:02.970
just a normal lightning payment. Both of those are available at cildispatch.com.
46
00:04:04.390 --> 00:04:05.130
As always,
47
00:04:05.785 --> 00:04:07.644
this show is livestreamed
48
00:04:08.905 --> 00:04:12.285
through Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube, and now bitcointv.com
49
00:04:13.065 --> 00:04:14.400
as well. Bitcointv.com,
50
00:04:16.940 --> 00:04:19.600
we need to I need to acquire and buy
51
00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:26.395
a GPU so the transcoding is better, so the quality will be slightly worse on bitcoin tv.com, but you don't have to deal with trackers,
52
00:04:28.375 --> 00:04:30.775
or ads or anything like that. So,
53
00:04:31.419 --> 00:04:33.680
trade offs trade offs everywhere, but I am working,
54
00:04:34.460 --> 00:04:37.520
to get that GPU so the quality will be better.
55
00:04:38.380 --> 00:04:39.680
This is a
56
00:04:40.725 --> 00:04:43.545
a conversation that I'm very excited to have.
57
00:04:44.085 --> 00:04:47.225
We got some great guests here. This is still dispatch 51.
58
00:04:47.765 --> 00:04:52.580
The topic is Bitcoin companies keeping lists of Bitcoiners in our transaction history.
59
00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.460
It's focused on the trade offs of KYC,
60
00:04:56.255 --> 00:04:57.155
AML regulations,
61
00:04:57.535 --> 00:04:59.555
and how they interact with Bitcoin.
62
00:05:00.575 --> 00:05:04.035
We got some return guests, and we got some new guests. I'm gonna start,
63
00:05:04.830 --> 00:05:07.810
this introduction with our new guests. We have,
64
00:05:08.590 --> 00:05:13.409
steamed podcast host and good friend, Stefan Lovera. Stefan, why don't you say hi to the freaks?
65
00:05:16.575 --> 00:05:19.395
66
00:05:20.815 --> 00:05:29.139
67
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:31.539
We have
68
00:05:32.425 --> 00:05:34.525
we have, Laser Huddle here.
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First time on dispatch, but he has been on TFTC with Marty in the past. How's it going, Laser?
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Thank you.
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We have return guest, Diverter. How's it going, Diverter?
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Other than that, I'm pretty good other than the fact that it sounds like Divert is over there eating a sandwich, but, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty excited to be a fun talk.
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So it looks like
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in the live chat that everyone's having issues with bitcoin tv.com.
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What What are you gonna do? We're doing it live.
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So where should we start? I was thinking maybe we should start on
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what is KYC,
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what is its impact on Bitcoin,
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and then take it from there. Who wants to who wants to give that a shot?
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specific identity
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information
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to a company or to an individual
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in order
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for them to be able to provide you in general
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it normally is a legal obligation
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given the AML, anti money laundering laws. Now, of course,
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we
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might not agree with those laws that we might wish,
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you know, for market regulation as opposed to government
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regulation, but the impact for
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Bitcoin is, obviously, is that
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and this is a question many of us have all spoken about and explored,
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even the risk of potentially
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capturing of Bitcoin, and does this mean that everyone is bagged and tagged as it were?
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Does that create a risk for the individual
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if their information were to be
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stolen or lost? Or potentially in the future, would that create a target on people's backs
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either
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from the government perspective or from a private
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adversary's
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perspective.
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So I think there are different ways to think about it. Generally speaking, it relates to having to
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provide
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information about yourself, such as your passport or your driver's license,
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and that's for an individual. And then, of course, companies can also be required to
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KYC,
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and that might require things like company formation documents and so on.
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Broadly speaking, we're talking about this idea of having to show some identity
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documents.
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Now in other
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requirements around AML and KYC and sanctions and things like this, companies might be required, and this is normal banks, might be required to do various activities, things like transaction monitoring and so on. So I'm sure we're gonna get into a whole bunch of things like that.
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So
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I think
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the those that's, like, the general idea, and, of course, I guess it's it's it's
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theoretically, are you even in a peer to peer interaction, are you still having to provide some KYC or some in identifying information?
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But, of course, the the question is around who are you KYC ing to and, how much information are you having to give? So I think that's probably
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Just to be clear, KYC
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AML stands for know your customer
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anti money laundering.
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and one thing, though,
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KYC is used colloquially,
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you know, amongst the big corners. It's just basically,
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it's taken on this kinda catch all form now to where,
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anything described where you've where you've provided any sort of personal information or maybe it's not completely anonymous,
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then it's referred to as as KYC or it's not non KYC.
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So I think it's important, especially for the purposes of this discussion, the KYC is an actual procedure. Like, there it is an actual technical procedure that you have to do. You you go through. You provide all the information and details
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to a company that stored that information. So we're not talking about, like,
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if you're if you're mining at home and you're not using the VPN, well, that's not non k y c. Of course, it's non KYC. It's it's not anonymous.
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It may not be, quote, unquote, perfectly private, but it's non KYC. So, that that colloquial use of the term kinda muddies the waters I feel like in a lot of the debate.
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in a way it's an extension of the fiat system. Right? Like, if you go sign up for a bank account,
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you know,
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you are providing
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legal documentation
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as to your your legal identity.
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So one way another way to think about KYC is it it it kinda starts when you get your paycheck. Like, the minute you have money in a checking account in the fiat system,
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that that that monetary energy is
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is be it has to be accounted for. It's tracked and it's tied to your legal identity.
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And so then the question is, as you go into the Bitcoin
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ecosystem, how far does that extend? And, you know,
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most of the exchanges, a large degree of them,
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continue that tradition. Right? They collect all this legal documentation so that the the Bitcoin that you own is tied to that same legal identity,
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so that they can track from when you got paid in your career all the way through to what assets you own.
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quickly double down on what Diverter was saying. You know, sometimes you hear people say,
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well, if you buy something from a merchant,
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you know, then you're you technically
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and they collected your shipping information, then that means you KYC'd yourself.
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And that's that's not, like, what this is referring to. We're talking about that long term collected stored data,
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that ties you down to how much Bitcoin you bought, when you bought it, and,
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and then it assumes, right, that you still maintain that amount of Bitcoin. And that's kinda where I think that this whole conversation starts,
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at least in my opinion.
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I
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in other aspects of our lives as Bitcoiners, we tend to make a point of not using
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terminology
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that is decided by other
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entities, oftentimes, that are against Bitcoin or against privacy.
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The the big one that happened recently
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was when they said unhosted wallets instead of self custody. When the regulators put that in writing, they said unhosted wallets. And what were they insinuating there? They were insinuating
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that
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that hosted wallets were the default and unhosted wallets were the
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were the rarity. Even though in Bitcoin,
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it has historically been
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a culture dominated by self custody.
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So
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I actually think that the term KYC in general
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and its attachment to this idea of anti money laundering is we're already arguing on a back foot, if you're talking about,
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individual privacy and sovereignty.
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So I intentionally
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named the episode Bitcoin Companies Keeping Lists of Bitcoiners in Our Transaction History
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because I feel like that is very clear what is happening.
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I you know, indent little databases of identity,
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documents, and they're forced to hold those. So, you know, you're doing financial
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stuff, and and so just like a bank, these exchanges are collecting that stuff.
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for and I don't first of all, I wanna say this before we get going here because
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it obviously, you know, we're
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I'm the non KYC guy, and we've got the guys on here that are supposed to be the pro KYC guys, but I don't really believe these guys are one, unquote, pro KYC.
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I don't think anyone here is arguing for KYC. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure nobody's arguing for KYC.
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It's just a matter of whether or not it's an acceptable trade off to achieve adoption as far as I can tell. But having said that, I do wanna make this point from a philosophical standpoint. I don't wanna get on the soapbox about it, but I really do believe,
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KYC is
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at its heart antithetical
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to Bitcoin as a whole.
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KYC is
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is in its very nature an exclusionary
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procedure. It it that is it's what it does. It excludes
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certain people that they don't want to be able to transact from transacting or from being able to do whatever financial procedure you wanna do. It by its very nature, it it it's bound
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to exclude.
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Whereas
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Bitcoin, by its very nature, is is supposed to be an an all inclusive or permissionless
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monetary network. I mean, the the pseudonymity of Bitcoin, I mean, yeah, it helps in a privacy aspect, but really truthfully, that's that's from an inclusion standpoint. It's because anybody could be that,
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arrangement of characters on a screen. That could be anybody, anywhere. So Bitcoin,
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I mean, just from a philosophical standpoint, it's supposed to be this permissionless,
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inclusionary
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monetary network. And the fact that that KYC is being ported over from this legacy financial system and just grafted onto Bitcoin, which is supposed to be a completely different sort of financial system. It's just, I I don't see any other way to say it. It's just antithetical to the entire,
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ethos of Bitcoin in my opinion.
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But, again, I don't wanna I don't wanna soapbox these things. I'm not trying to stand on a philosophical point here because that's very easy argument to make. It's easy to sit up here and be the the, you know, you should the fundamentalist type. The, you know, you should never do this because I get that happens all the time in, like, the privacy communities.
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I don't think that's necessary to make this argument.
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So I don't wanna do that this whole time, but I I I wanna at least put that out there because I I I can't stand the fact that we're supposed to be building this brand new permissionless
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inclusionary system. And what do we do but graft on this horrible exclusionary procedure right on top of it, and it just normalized the whole thing.
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So that's that.
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with diverted there and say that, you know, the
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the the financial surveillance is as antithetical to freedom as,
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dragnet surveillance
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that came in after 911. It completely
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side steps,
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fundamental rights. And and so the fact that you have this broad
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financial surveillance everywhere
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in the banking system and in the ramps that lead it, you know, when you acquire Bitcoin is,
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it's a
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it's not good. It's bad. It's a reality that we have to contend with. The best way to contend with it, I suggest, is to
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work within a framework that it exists and and most of the adoption curve as it stands is entering through KYC. So now what? Right? What do we do? And
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and, I mean, to my to my view, the the the problem seems to be is that,
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this fiat era isn't going over going going away tomorrow. Right? So there to to some degree,
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we have, like, years, maybe decades of this fiat era.
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And
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when you
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disappear,
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wealth out of that fiat,
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system,
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it's kind of like a one way if if you try and move it into no KYC
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wealth. And that's been my kind of view is that, like, okay,
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my mental model is that, like, okay,
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if I put all my wealth in Bitcoin and then my family uses it to to pay on a mortgage later. Right? Like,
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that is
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because I'm working with institutionalized
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corporations on the other end, like, that's gonna be tied to my legal identity because I'm still living in the fiat world part of me. But what I could do and and what I think is interesting is I could build a no KYC stash that was destined for the Bitcoin era. Almost like an emergency stash, a no KYC stash. And
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that's where I I I don't think you're gonna get a lot of pushback from me on on, like, the value of, like, home mining. The value of these exchanges that let people
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build, you know, plan and build an OKYC stash. Where I think it gets kinda messy is most of the world, you know, we're at a couple hundred basis points of adoption. Most of the world as as enters Bitcoin,
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they live in the KYC fiat world. And so they can't move all of their wealth into
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no KYC because it they have liabilities. They pay lenders. They pay people that are KYC. And so
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that's a quandary more than anything that we just have to grapple with. And I don't have a good answer for that. And I guess I'm just curious, you know, what y'all thinking on it. You've been y'all been in this space longer than I have.
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How do you
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grapple with that?
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I'm not gonna say bad things about non KYC. I believe
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if you can acquire non KYC, that's great. I I just think it's a different
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trade off balance for a lot of people,
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and that there are people who are newer in their journey who
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you might try to teach them about the values of privacy, but they might not be interested.
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So
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I see it as
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the broader shifts that we're trying to achieve
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is to take away
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the fiat power of money,
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and I believe that there is a broader shift.
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And just as I would and I have argued,
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Gus, and in articles about the cultural consequences of fiat money,
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I believe that when society switches over to Bitcoin,
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some of the we're going to undo some of those fiat cultural consequences,
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and so from my perspective, I see it as as more people shift over to Bitcoin, and of course, some of those will be non k y c and some of that will be k y c, but I think that will drive fundamental shifts in society, and I believe those
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are generally gonna be better shifts for society.
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I I
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think the aspect around what how much can be done about k y c. I think that's probably the more important question because I just I see this like
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we are living in a world where governments have all this power, and there's only so much that private companies and private individuals
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can do about that.
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I think the
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important aspects are that people can still self custody their coins. I think that's really the key point. Of course,
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then from then, they're able to use CoinJoin and other privacy techniques, but I just see it
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fundamentally that, yes, KYC has a risk,
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but for
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many people,
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they they are better off at least holding some
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than holding none. And so even if it is KYC coin,
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I think in practice, if people end up having a little bit in both worlds,
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then so be it. If they have some KYC and some non KYC,
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then so be it.
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the biggest piece, and this is
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a lot of where, like, my frustration on this whole topic kinda comes from is that, like, we have all these people that have such, like, large platforms
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and,
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you know, like, yes, like, we do, like, the acknowledgment of, like, hey. Like, no KYC is good. We should have a KYC escape hatch. We just should have you know, like, try to store some of your stuff in no KYC is just in case.
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Right? But the reality is, like, how how are we pushing all these people in this mass I'm doing quotations because I know it's a mass adoption of Bitcoin. Right? If we are pitching them on censorship resistance,
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right, decentralization,
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all of the, like, core foundations of Bitcoin,
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Right? Instead of, like, being like, well, in the future,
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eventually, hopefully, maybe,
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this KYC won't matter.
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You know, if you were onboarding people the right way, they're gonna see KYC as, like, an immediate threat. They wouldn't want if you're onboarding people with that mindset,
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like, you wouldn't want people to
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to like, you would if you're, like, a person that's, like, I don't want to I want this wealth to be out of the eyes and out of the hands of
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regulators,
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right, or the state.
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No KYC is your route. Like, I've pitched that to older people
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and, who have a lot of money, and they were immediately like, oh, I don't like, how do I get no KYC?
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I don't wanna buy it from Coinbase or anywhere else because,
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like, they're gonna have a track on that, and, eventually, I'm gonna have to pay taxes on it. Right? Like, eventually, they're gonna they're gonna cut they're gonna know. Like, they're not stupid
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despite the fact that, like, you know, people think that boomers are dumb. It's not true. Right? Like, they especially, like, the wealthy ones, like, those are the ones that, like, know They know the reality of this stuff. They know the reality of taxes and how the state can actually just,
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like, steal straight from you. Right? So, you know, you pitch it in that way that no KYC is that important.
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And,
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you know, you wanna opt out of the system, like, no KYC is how you opt out of the system. And, like, there are ways. Like, there are plenty of people who live
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on the on you know, they they got on 0,
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and they make it work in the fiat system, in the fiat world, if you will. You know? So, like, I I feel like we make a lot of excuses,
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but then on top of that, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community?
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Right? Like, what are we doing
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to make no KYC,
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like, acquiring it easier? Because the biggest the biggest pushback that I hear about, like, oh, well, like, no KYC is just is just easier, and people don't wanna do it. Right? Well, like, what are we doing as a Bitcoin community to make it
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easier? Like, we have BISK, and that's great. But, like, what what can we be doing better? And that that should be the conversation, not like, oh, well, this is the easiest thing to do at the time, so let's just go that route. Or, like, everyone just do home mining. Home mining isn't isn't something that every single person has the money to put up and do. Like, I I
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obviously support
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home mining. I think more people should do it, but that's not, like, a reality that every single person can do, you know, with their with their income.
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You know? So
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that that's kinda where, I guess, I step off, and I I start to think about how the no KYC, KYC argument goes. Is, like, what are we peddling
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versus what should we be peddling?
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And what's our responsibility as Bitcoiners to, like,
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you know, to inform people on? It
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forward privacy on settlement is
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absolutely vital. I mean, this idea that anytime you settle to a a party that they're not able to introspect
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introspect your financial business.
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So I think, like
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I I I hope that it goes without saying everyone here wants to see forward privacy
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eventually become across most people's Bitcoin stack the default.
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And and when we talk KYC, we mean backwards looking privacy, which is to say, you know, you essentially have an an exchange that has a list of how much Bitcoin you have, and you're gonna have to account for that,
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whenever you sell it. Right? And and and and so,
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you know, I
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like, I I think it's important to say that no no one everyone here is pro privacy.
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You have a Bitcoin wallet. You should be able to settle to parties and and not have your privacy divulged.
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So I I helped my my parents onboard to Bitcoin because they saw
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not not because they thought it was cool, they were gonna make money, but they saw the groceries,
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the price of groceries raising and it started to scare them. They've seen countries go through hyperinflation
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and and, you know, red book and and this and that.
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Their concern is, like, they don't have so much money that they
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can you know, like, 1, they don't wanna go to, like, El Salvador.
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Right? They wanna stay in in the fiat era in their fiat country. Right? So they're in a KYC country in the US,
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and they, like, they have a cabin that they wanna pay on the mortgage on. So they can't have the SATs leave the fiat system because they have expenses in the fiat system. If they have big stack and no KYC
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and they pay Chase
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Bank with those SATs,
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I mean, you see what I'm saying. Right? You kinda you know, your legal
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person now has
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payment of of,
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to Chase Bank and and so you haven't really disappeared
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any money from accountability. And so this is why, like, I actually think of no KYC as a one way road. Like, you are those sats are destined for the Bitcoin only economy.
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And and for me, that's an argument that it's actually at the end of a Bitcoiner's progression. Like, when you get into Bitcoin, like, you might accidentally buy, like, grayscale. You're buying paper Bitcoin and then you get coached and you're like, wow. I need to hold my Bitcoin. I need to hold my keys. And then eventually, people are like, you know, you should have some no KYC stats because where we're going, we're not gonna, you know, you're you're not gonna need
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where where we're going, you're not gonna need KYC. You're not gonna want it. But until we get there, like, you're not gonna take your no KYC stash and and pay Chase with it. You're not gonna, you know yeah. I understand you can get gift cards. Right? And you can or or whatever. There's there's mechanisms by which you can make purchases,
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for goods. But but any real like, what do you do there? I guess, that's my question. Like, what what would you advise to my parents or in you know, as the rest of the world kinda gets on to Bitcoin, how do we solve that?
348
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349
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money orders? Yeah.
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You can sell you you can sell your Bitcoin,
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and you can turn that around and and use it to buy
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353
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But it's more, like, in no way, shape, or form are the no k y c stats that I've acquired,
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stuck until hyper Bitcoinization or whatever. Like, I've regularly spend Bitcoin.
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I pay my bills in Bitcoin. I may not pay it directly in Bitcoin. I do when I can.
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But when I can't, I hop on. I'll find somebody. I'll sell for cash. I'll use I'll get a money order or whatever I need to do. It's just not as
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convenient,
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I suppose,
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in this current,
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you know, I said, Fiat world.
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But my
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the whole idea here, what I can't quite wrap my mind around is
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this this
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adversarial
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mindset,
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of Bitcoin. And not only the adversarial mindset, but the actual coding of Bitcoin and all the
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the trade offs,
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and things that that were made in Bitcoin's development,
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like, what are we what are we doing that for? Why are we making
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these trade offs? Why can't we just,
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accept a little bit more centralization? It would make things a lot easier. The more centralized your thing yeah. It's it makes you can be a lot faster. You can you can do a whole lot of things, even more privacy. You can get, you know, a lot more private. Just whatever you wanna do if you just trade off these other things, but we're not willing to do that with Bitcoin. We make specific trade offs even though it may be, quote, unquote, slower
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or it whatever.
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And, I mean, the only the only thing I could figure when making these trade offs because,
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specifically, we're trying to make Bitcoin so that it does not rely on anyone's good graces to operate,
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that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. That's that's where we're we're going
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if, in my opinion, Bitcoin is at all successful.
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It's very possible that this k y c data doesn't matter at all ever,
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but in my opinion, the only way that happens is if Bitcoin never becomes an actual threat
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to USD hegemony and and the greater powers at large.
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Like, if if nobody if Bitcoin's not actually a good safe,
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you know, a safety hatch or somewhere that people can opt out of this Panopticon that they're very obviously building and moving towards CBDCs and shit like that.
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If Bitcoin isn't that safe haven, it and it just stays as, like, this this speculative
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asset that goes up and down based off of whatever the Fed decides to do, whether they wanna cut rates or rate whatever they wanna do, Bitcoin goes up or down. If it stays like that and it's not
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this real
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actual opt out escape hash for people, then who gives a shit about the KYC data? Why would they care?
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But if we do actually start challenging their power,
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I don't see a world where
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that just happens
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peacefully and easily, and they just hand over this godlike power of money printing
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without there being some sort of,
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like,
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for lack of a better word, attack
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on the people that are taking this power away from them. And so we we prepare with the coding of Bitcoin so that it is able to operate in an adversarial environment. I just don't know why we wouldn't, as Bitcoiners, with our own personal individual stashes, do the same thing and try to make sure that our Bitcoin is able to operate in an adversarial environment no matter
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whether or not they declare it's legal or not.
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And even if, you know, people hold their own keys, you know, we're we can say that holding your own keys is even more important than no k y c. Well, okay.
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But what what are you actually implying there? The implication is that because you hold your own keys, they can't just
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do a blanket 6102 order on the exchanges and take everybody's Bitcoin. Fine. Granted.
398
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But,
399
00:32:31.215 --> 00:32:40.310
I mean, if they do do that, if they do go towards that aspect, not a ban of Bitcoin, but, say, a ban on self custody, You could still Yep. Quote, unquote own Bitcoin,
400
00:32:40.690 --> 00:32:43.830
but it you're gonna have to custody it with an approved exchange.
401
00:32:44.290 --> 00:32:57.890
Well, if you hold your own keys, they can't just take that from you. So what they're gonna have to coerce you into that. So the implication being as long as you hold your own keys, you're able to resist this coercion. I don't see any way around that. That's what that's why would you would do it.
402
00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:07.145
So why are we not preparing fully? I just don't understand why you would prepare in all these other areas and then hand over your entire identity to purchase
403
00:33:07.445 --> 00:33:07.945
Bitcoin.
404
00:33:08.300 --> 00:33:15.520
405
00:33:17.935 --> 00:33:21.395
is the fact that Bitcoin companies, all major Bitcoin companies,
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00:33:22.495 --> 00:33:27.460
are required by law to keep an ever growing list of Bitcoiners and our transaction history,
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00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:29.539
share that
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information, keep it forever. I mean, they say they keep it for 7 years. It might as well be forever.
409
00:33:35.905 --> 00:33:37.685
You should assume that it's forever.
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Is is this an attack on Bitcoin? Is this the first attack on Bitcoin?
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Are we going to see this evolve? Are we gonna see
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regulated exchanges
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00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:50.360
put other restrictions on Bitcoin?
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00:33:50.820 --> 00:33:52.040
Are we gonna see
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burdensome tax policy
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imposed on people who are
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using Bitcoin?
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Are we gonna see all of this data
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basically weaponized
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against Bitcoiners?
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And what is, you know, the next 5 years of this type of situation?
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And do people that are onboarding onto Bitcoin right now understand
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these trade offs they're making? Because I'm pretty sure they're they they aren't.
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00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:26.484
425
00:34:27.425 --> 00:34:31.205
the ways to think about this is we're going on this
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journey of
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trying to help people shift their wealth into the Bitcoin system, and some of those people are not as willing to take all the same steps to go fully non KYC for various reasons, that they
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may not be able to access the liquidity, they may not
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they may struggle with the UX hurdles and not having somebody to hold their hand while they go through this, of course, we can help our family and friends,
430
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but there will be people who are coming through who don't have access to a person who's willing to
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spend and spend that time with the non KYC aspect of it, and so I think to your point, adults, so answering your question around what does it look like in the future,
432
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it's yes. It's quite possible that we see more and more
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regulation come down the line from the government or more
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encroachment
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in terms of
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things like,
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00:35:24.585 --> 00:35:29.360
let's say the FATF Travel Rule. Now, some of this stuff was in place even before Bitcoin, right?
438
00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:31.300
So
439
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the laws and things that caused
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AML laws, so the Bank Secrecy Act in the US,
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organizations like the FATF, the Financial Action Task Force,
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these are some of the underlying entities driving this KYC pressure, and these entities
443
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all sort of form a club, and they start bullying each other to do more KYC. And they bully countries
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to then say, hey. You are on the blacklist unless you implement new AML laws in your country.
445
00:36:01.845 --> 00:36:09.210
Right? So in Europe, there's AML 5 d, and there's all these different, right, AML laws that they're trying to press sort of ram down our throats.
446
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Now we don't want that, and I believe that's something that could be pushed back at the root cause. If we were to start pushing back against the likes of Fadev
447
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and
448
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to have some of the politicians
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aware of that because I I I see this as a multi pronged battle. Right? This is there's people on the on the non k y c only side who are just trying to build that non k y c economy,
450
00:36:35.925 --> 00:36:38.500
and I see it like there will be people who
451
00:36:39.140 --> 00:36:40.360
were trying to push back
452
00:36:41.060 --> 00:36:50.315
in the in the white market side, in the in the government side, in the political side. They're going to play that political game, and so I've done episodes about some of the ineffectiveness
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of AML laws. I did an episode with Ron Paul talking about the problem of AML laws, that it it's really that's the source of the problem,
454
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and that I think, like, while I accept,
455
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yes, there is a risk that Bitcoin companies are having to keep lists of Bitcoiners and transaction history. That's the legal requirement.
456
00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:11.109
I I wish it weren't so,
457
00:37:11.490 --> 00:37:13.829
but I think one of the ways to
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help against that in the longer term is to build up the base of Bitcoin people, of the people who hold Bitcoin. Yes. Many of those people coming in will have KYC.
459
00:37:23.705 --> 00:37:44.160
I wish it wasn't that way, but I think this is the reasonable way because in the future, yes, if there's not enough pushback, yes, I think they are gonna do things like wealth taxes. They might even, potentially, we're seeing them raise flags about things like unrealized capital gains taxes. Right now, if that were to occur, if that were to come to pass, then that would be really, really bad for Bitcoin holders.
460
00:37:44.620 --> 00:37:50.695
And I believe at that point, they'd be you would have probably enough Bitcoiners with enough of a political will
461
00:37:52.615 --> 00:37:54.155
back or to start
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doing,
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but
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those are some of the risks that are potentially coming down the line
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if the
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I guess that political battle isn't fought.
467
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468
00:38:13.510 --> 00:38:14.010
469
00:38:14.630 --> 00:38:18.330
Stefan, you see your your boy, Catan, asked you a question? Yeah. Sure.
470
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If we could push back on governments, Bitcoin would never need to exist. We cannot advocate them to stop printing money. Why would they stop collecting personal information?
471
00:38:27.675 --> 00:38:30.655
472
00:38:31.275 --> 00:38:39.440
my answer would be that we can push back on certain aspects of it if there's enough of a political will, if there's enough people
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who actually would go to a you know, to try and vote for a person who is
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00:38:45.484 --> 00:38:49.105
who sees the danger with this. Right? And I'll give you an example. Right? So, you know,
475
00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:51.860
as, Odell says, right, our queen, Cynthia,
476
00:38:52.720 --> 00:38:54.820
has spoken about things like the
477
00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.565
the unfairness or the injustice of the reporting threshold
478
00:38:59.865 --> 00:39:00.365
being
479
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down at $600.
480
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And then thing, this is just a general
481
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financial services
482
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KYC thing. They
483
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are continually
484
00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:18.025
clamping down, and this is not just a Bitcoin thing. It's just it's just an in general thing. So I think this is the other point I see as well that
485
00:39:18.565 --> 00:39:19.305
I think
486
00:39:20.005 --> 00:39:20.905
it's like
487
00:39:22.164 --> 00:39:28.369
I think some of this is sort of shooting the messenger. Right? It's like where it's almost like you're you're you're blaming
488
00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:33.170
Bitcoin companies when they're trying to help. They're the ones actually trying to help people get onboard to Bitcoin.
489
00:39:33.869 --> 00:39:38.204
Other people that, you know, not there there's other people who are not even
490
00:39:38.585 --> 00:39:45.490
involved in the space at all and not trying to help people get into Bitcoin at all. And I also think how fair is it to expect
491
00:39:46.110 --> 00:39:53.330
these small Bitcoin companies, and especially the Bitcoin only ones, much smaller than the likes of the Coinbase's of the world,
492
00:39:53.635 --> 00:39:59.735
that their ability to even push back on their own is is extremely limited. They are this tiny entity
493
00:40:00.195 --> 00:40:09.785
at risk of basically losing if if they lose their license, they lose their ability to compete, and they lose all, you know, ability to actually play you know, it's ticket to play. If you lose
494
00:40:10.984 --> 00:40:11.724
that license,
495
00:40:12.025 --> 00:40:13.244
you're gone. You're out.
496
00:40:13.865 --> 00:40:20.500
I I think these are some of the ways that people are yeah. Any I'll I'll leave it there. I think someone else wanted to come in.
497
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:34.325
498
00:40:35.700 --> 00:40:41.480
exchanges are in it to make money, like, otherwise, they would not be able to operate. That's why,
499
00:40:41.860 --> 00:40:44.360
you know, it's all about appeasing the government.
500
00:40:44.765 --> 00:40:46.305
And that's ultimately where it's, like,
501
00:40:47.165 --> 00:40:48.305
you know, it's
502
00:40:49.245 --> 00:40:49.745
it's
503
00:40:50.685 --> 00:40:53.185
it's weird when, you know, you see
504
00:40:53.569 --> 00:41:08.775
people who are, like you know, and this isn't just, like, directed at at you guys. It's just in general. You see it all the time, a Bitcoiner is just, like, talking out of 2 sides of their mouth. They're like, we wanna end the state, but I'm gonna, like but KYC is the way to do that. And you're like, by utilizing KYC, those KYC exchanges,
505
00:41:09.155 --> 00:41:23.365
right, have to appease and be boot liquors to the state. Right? Like, their whole thing is that they need to do whatever it is that the state tells them to do in order to play the game. Right? So while you could argue that, oh, well, like, they're trying to do something
506
00:41:23.665 --> 00:41:33.830
to get more Bitcoiners on, and, like, being a Bitcoin only exchange is, like, sure, that's a I mean, it's better than being, you know, a casino or whatever. Sure. But, like, at the end of the day, right,
507
00:41:34.770 --> 00:41:35.270
exchanges
508
00:41:35.570 --> 00:41:36.790
are in it to make money.
509
00:41:37.185 --> 00:41:39.445
Like, that that is their financial like,
510
00:41:39.745 --> 00:42:08.590
they are in it financially. Like, that is why that they're there. Right? Because if they weren't, there's plenty of other things that they could be doing to make this better for Bitcoiners, or do the absolute bare minimum as far as reporting goes, or whatever they could do to prove to Bitcoiners that they are they are doing the very bare minimum, because that, to me, is like the ethos of Bitcoin. The the ethos of Bitcoin is about, you know, being outside of the state, to not be, you know, compliant and not be, you know, regulated
511
00:42:08.890 --> 00:42:30.135
or have restrictions on who you can and cannot transact with. That is why we are censorship resistant. The moment that everything is KYC ed and that we continue to say, oh, it's okay, because eventually, we won't be KYC ed or eventually, the state will die. That's not gonna happen. Like, that's not gonna happen to this state. It's a threat. If we're gonna talk about Bitcoin as what it is supposed to be, which is censorship resistant, peer to peer transactions,
512
00:42:30.595 --> 00:42:32.215
you know, the the digital cash,
513
00:42:32.835 --> 00:42:34.295
that that goes away.
514
00:42:34.595 --> 00:42:51.795
That goes away the moment that it actually becomes a threat to the government. So what do you do? You continue to regulate. If you're the government, you just continue to regulate, regulate, continue to list, keep it going, make restrictions harder and harder as you see it become more and more of a threat. Right? You make more and more laws that are based around these people exactly because
515
00:42:52.095 --> 00:43:09.535
if the majority of Bitcoiners are people that are just in it for number go up or whatever, they don't care about KYC. They don't care about that stuff. Right? They care about their their bags getting pumped. Right? So it comes down to to preaching the ethos and getting people to understand, like, what Bitcoin is about,
516
00:43:10.075 --> 00:43:13.375
right, and how to operate in that Bitcoin world.
517
00:43:13.700 --> 00:43:15.800
Right? It's it's not about just,
518
00:43:17.540 --> 00:43:22.359
it's not about just, like, getting as many Bitcoins on as possible. Like, that that to me is,
519
00:43:23.555 --> 00:43:26.214
that should happen on its own. Right? If Bitcoin
520
00:43:27.075 --> 00:43:30.775
the logic being, right, everyone says Bitcoin is the is revolutionary
521
00:43:31.075 --> 00:43:32.135
money. Right?
522
00:43:32.660 --> 00:43:34.200
If it's revolutionary money,
523
00:43:34.660 --> 00:43:36.680
it will it will adopt itself.
524
00:43:37.220 --> 00:43:40.280
Right? The market will speak for itself. We don't need to pedal
525
00:43:40.925 --> 00:43:41.425
the,
526
00:43:42.445 --> 00:43:49.665
the KYC exchanges to saying the only means. And then the the only other point I was gonna add real quick, the whole self custody off of exchanges
527
00:43:50.340 --> 00:44:06.684
is like a is like a privacy like like, the whole reason that, you know, not your keys, not your coins. Like, I started before the KYC debate. Right? Like, that was like a Mt. Gox. Like, he like, they got how many exchanges got hacked since Mt. Gox? People just lost their coins. Like, that was a different,
528
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:08.340
totally different thing.
529
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:12.260
It didn't have to do with, like, forward privacy of
530
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:17.325
whatever. Like, it it it had to do with people losing their their Bitcoin.
531
00:44:18.105 --> 00:44:21.724
So I just, like, I feel like that was just a point that doesn't need to be,
532
00:44:22.220 --> 00:44:29.200
brought up for whatever reason. But yeah. So that that was I just feel like it depends on how we're how you are looking at Bitcoin
533
00:44:30.115 --> 00:44:32.295
but will shape how you see KYC.
534
00:44:32.755 --> 00:44:33.734
That's my opinion.
535
00:44:36.035 --> 00:44:40.210
536
00:44:41.490 --> 00:44:43.750
go ahead. Go ahead. Because I got a lot of requests.
537
00:44:47.454 --> 00:44:47.954
538
00:44:48.494 --> 00:44:49.875
You're not recording me.
539
00:44:50.255 --> 00:44:51.075
Okay. Whether
540
00:44:51.694 --> 00:44:59.060
whether whether or not we convince new Bitcoiners to hold their own keys or not, I think that's absolutely fundamental. I mean,
541
00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:03.460
you know, especially going back to what you're saying about the risk of a of a 6102,
542
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.300
a kind of, like, broad,
543
00:45:06.515 --> 00:45:12.935
dictate that that allows the state to either confiscate Bitcoin or or sort of like a paperification
544
00:45:13.635 --> 00:45:15.789
that we saw with gold. So it's trapped in
545
00:45:16.490 --> 00:45:16.990
regulated
546
00:45:17.369 --> 00:45:17.869
custodians.
547
00:45:18.410 --> 00:45:24.865
Like, that's a real risk and and the you know, what you want is enough Bitcoin
548
00:45:25.165 --> 00:45:26.145
held in
549
00:45:26.605 --> 00:45:29.105
cold storage where people are custodying it themselves
550
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:35.780
that the the unit economics of of the the application of the monopoly on force in that way is fundamentally
551
00:45:36.160 --> 00:45:38.820
inverted. Right? If if nobody holds
552
00:45:39.205 --> 00:45:40.905
Bitcoin holds their own keys,
553
00:45:41.365 --> 00:45:42.825
then you haven't inverted
554
00:45:43.205 --> 00:45:44.165
the the,
555
00:45:44.485 --> 00:45:49.180
application of force there. Right? It's it's very easy to coerce a small number of parties.
556
00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:51.100
To to me, this
557
00:45:51.560 --> 00:45:56.060
it it reminds me of, like, the the firearms issue in the United States. So,
558
00:45:56.945 --> 00:45:59.925
up until recently, most of the world, most of westerners
559
00:46:00.385 --> 00:46:02.325
who didn't understand why Americans
560
00:46:02.945 --> 00:46:15.705
were are allowed to own guns, you know, They're in this place where, like, they're looking at maybe having to scan their biometrics to see if they're, like, able to purchase groceries. Right? But in the US, we don't have these, you know, we don't
561
00:46:16.725 --> 00:46:18.985
broad ownership of firearms, just the specter
562
00:46:19.365 --> 00:46:21.145
of firearms being broadly
563
00:46:21.609 --> 00:46:24.589
owned across the people really does stay the
564
00:46:24.890 --> 00:46:39.740
the ultimate tyranny of the state. Like that has been proven. And of course, in the US, most firearms are KYC. Right? You, like, you provide your info your legal info so they know who has guns. And and, of course, they've tried KYC persecution,
565
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:47.155
but they only can do it at small scale. It's the the the ownership of guns is too broad in the US to do,
566
00:46:47.695 --> 00:46:48.835
you know, nationwide
567
00:46:49.295 --> 00:46:51.715
political persecution. That wouldn't be politically
568
00:46:52.390 --> 00:46:52.890
viable.
569
00:46:53.190 --> 00:46:56.329
And what's funny is now that there's a culture of guns,
570
00:46:57.029 --> 00:47:03.194
be it that they're KYC, but we have a culture of guns in the US. We have this this no KYC
571
00:47:03.494 --> 00:47:03.994
escape,
572
00:47:04.295 --> 00:47:11.570
escape hatch developing where people are basically, they're manufacturing their own firearms, which is it's super geeky and cool.
573
00:47:12.590 --> 00:47:20.395
Now I don't I wouldn't stop people from getting KYC firearms. I would say get it. The more people that had it, the better. That broad ownership really neuters
574
00:47:20.855 --> 00:47:23.355
the ability to do broad KYC persecution.
575
00:47:23.660 --> 00:47:31.119
But I I would encourage gun people to geek out with, like, 3 d printing and stuff. Right? Like, make that escape hatch really
576
00:47:31.704 --> 00:47:47.840
healthy and irreversible. And that's kinda how I feel about Bitcoin. It's like, I don't wanna stop anyone from getting into Bitcoin. I wanna I wanna I want it to be as broad as possible. I wanna help people hold their keys so it eliminates the the paperification and confiscation risk. It makes it politically enviable.
577
00:47:48.265 --> 00:47:59.619
And at the same time, I want enough adoption that they can't do broad KYC persecution because like Stefan was saying, it's it's not that I want KYC. It's that I'm able to reconcile
578
00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:01.460
the reality that
579
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.660
there is broad KYC. The adoption curve is entering
580
00:48:05.085 --> 00:48:05.744
through that.
581
00:48:06.045 --> 00:48:09.105
Now what? And I just look at guns as, like, there's a reasonable
582
00:48:09.885 --> 00:48:10.845
analogy there.
583
00:48:11.484 --> 00:48:12.680
What do you think about that?
584
00:48:13.640 --> 00:48:14.040
585
00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:15.339
I would say
586
00:48:15.640 --> 00:48:16.940
the one absolute
587
00:48:17.240 --> 00:48:18.619
red line that the
588
00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:21.980
gun lobby or whatever has always drawn
589
00:48:22.295 --> 00:48:23.915
is on a national gun registry.
590
00:48:24.295 --> 00:48:29.035
And it's the one line they absolutely will not allow to be crossed. Now the second amendment,
591
00:48:29.550 --> 00:48:34.210
you know, as written, I mean, as far as I could tell, all gun laws are infringements.
592
00:48:35.070 --> 00:48:36.690
So every gun law is unconstitutional
593
00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:38.369
as far as I can tell.
594
00:48:39.415 --> 00:48:44.475
But the one single place that all of all the compromises of of all the Californication
595
00:48:45.095 --> 00:48:50.619
of, you know, gun ownership, and you you restricted this and restrict that, that all these were accepted
596
00:48:50.920 --> 00:48:58.775
and compromised and compromised and compromised until we got to the National Gun Registry. And that's a hard red line, and they will not accept it.
597
00:48:59.075 --> 00:49:03.655
And I think there is definitely a lesson in that. There's also a lesson in
598
00:49:04.040 --> 00:49:06.680
the 3 gun printing community and,
599
00:49:07.080 --> 00:49:08.700
the the defense distributed,
600
00:49:09.240 --> 00:49:10.300
the the Cody Wilson,
601
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:12.060
their outfit when
602
00:49:12.744 --> 00:49:15.805
they started posting these files and stuff online, and the state department,
603
00:49:16.345 --> 00:49:17.724
came after them. Now
604
00:49:18.185 --> 00:49:20.925
the state department ended up backing down quietly.
605
00:49:21.660 --> 00:49:23.520
They ended up backing down from from
606
00:49:23.820 --> 00:49:27.760
what they were trying to do. They backed down quietly. They quietly passed,
607
00:49:28.060 --> 00:49:29.120
the the these
608
00:49:29.535 --> 00:49:38.755
this regulation off until, the commerce department, I believe. And what the commerce department did was swiftly turn around and write the laws exactly as how
609
00:49:39.069 --> 00:49:45.490
Defense Distributed was doing their website. They wrote the law around how the okay. The way they're doing, it's legal.
610
00:49:45.869 --> 00:49:48.745
And, as far as I could tell, the only way that
611
00:49:50.085 --> 00:49:54.505
that result ended up that way is not because of political good graces,
612
00:49:55.030 --> 00:49:56.970
It's because they couldn't win,
613
00:49:57.510 --> 00:49:59.930
and they knew that they can't win.
614
00:50:00.310 --> 00:50:02.650
Now the problem with only,
615
00:50:03.485 --> 00:50:06.065
self custody, and self custody is absolutely
616
00:50:06.445 --> 00:50:06.945
paramount.
617
00:50:07.245 --> 00:50:09.425
Don't at all for a second get that twisted,
618
00:50:09.965 --> 00:50:21.359
because even in the Mt. Gox days and all that, yes, sure. It was about keeping exchanges for being hacked, but it's, from day 1, as far as the trade offs of Bitcoin goes, this has always been about surviving an adversarial environment,
619
00:50:21.665 --> 00:50:30.165
period. Point blank. That's what this whole thing is about. Because if it can't survive an adversarial environment, then we're at liberty reserve again or whatever else.
620
00:50:31.410 --> 00:50:34.790
So every trade off has been for that. And so then here we come,
621
00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:48.600
and they can't brute force attack this thing. They can't just do all these things that they want and shut it down like Liberty Liberty Reserve. They can't go get the centralized server. So what can they do? They slowly strangle it by just grafting on this piece of legacy
622
00:50:48.980 --> 00:50:51.480
crap that we know doesn't work.
623
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:55.880
Everyone knows that it doesn't work. It's been proven that it doesn't work, especially
624
00:50:56.325 --> 00:51:02.905
for the people that are most often targeted with it, then your smaller players. The the the rich people, they do what they want.
625
00:51:03.340 --> 00:51:18.605
So they just graph this on so that now this is our attack vector. And the good thing about this attack vector is it doesn't even have to look like one. It's it's it's welcoming. You can do whatever you want with your Bitcoin. All you gotta do is fill out all this information. Now
626
00:51:19.440 --> 00:51:24.260
the gun community knows very well registration leads to confiscation. And, yes, as
627
00:51:24.640 --> 00:51:26.740
guns are initially purchased legally,
628
00:51:27.655 --> 00:51:31.835
speaking, of course, there's a background check procedure and all that stuff that happens.
629
00:51:32.455 --> 00:51:37.150
But it's also there there is a the the hard line has been drawn about
630
00:51:37.450 --> 00:51:42.030
tracking transfers of guns. Those those guns can be transferred legally,
631
00:51:42.905 --> 00:51:48.605
and there is no national gun registry that actually says this is what's happened to it. So
632
00:51:49.385 --> 00:51:53.190
what I think is is the problem here is I feel like
633
00:51:54.530 --> 00:51:59.270
I feel like people get way too much credit for being able to resist.
634
00:51:59.635 --> 00:52:00.755
That's what I feel like.
635
00:52:02.434 --> 00:52:07.015
I said I was gonna blast him a couple times on this episode. I might as well go ahead and get started now.
636
00:52:07.569 --> 00:52:12.549
I'm not so sure that I want just everybody holding Bitcoin right now. They're they're welcome to.
637
00:52:13.170 --> 00:52:16.309
I I would've I would've sure. Go ahead. Get you some.
638
00:52:17.045 --> 00:52:19.225
But I'd I'm not interested in
639
00:52:20.005 --> 00:52:21.305
in Bitcoin for grandma.
640
00:52:21.765 --> 00:52:28.799
Grandma better be super based or have a super based son or grandson that that teaches her how to do this stuff because
641
00:52:29.660 --> 00:52:36.555
we don't send grandmas out to fight our fights for us. And we haven't had our fight yet. And it seems like everybody's
642
00:52:36.855 --> 00:52:40.555
playing this game as if we've already won, as if Bitcoin is inevitable.
643
00:52:41.040 --> 00:52:42.500
But what have we really done?
644
00:52:43.520 --> 00:52:47.700
There there are a couple places around the globe where people are escaping their hyperinflation
645
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:49.220
of the currencies, and
646
00:52:49.760 --> 00:52:52.105
believe me, it's tremendous. I'd love to see it.
647
00:52:53.445 --> 00:53:01.460
But we're does that's not the United States. That's not the world reserve currency that's being escaped. That's not people finding an escape route out of
648
00:53:01.920 --> 00:53:05.140
the USD hegemony. That's something entirely different.
649
00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:10.425
And money, the power to print money is something entirely different than than
650
00:53:11.045 --> 00:53:12.585
anything else in the world.
651
00:53:13.125 --> 00:53:28.435
Because as I'm sure we all would agree, the the ability to to print money on a whim essentially funds this whole clown world that we run-in. And so if something actually starts to begin to siphon away that power from them, I don't
652
00:53:28.735 --> 00:53:35.155
for for the life of me, I can't see how that happens. I don't see some sort of, like, flash crash death
653
00:53:35.590 --> 00:53:42.250
of the legacy system. I I just don't see how we get from point a of we're taking all their power
654
00:53:42.665 --> 00:53:47.005
to point c of we're we're in a a hyper Bitcoinization
655
00:53:47.385 --> 00:53:51.085
type world without the big ass fight in point b.
656
00:53:51.640 --> 00:53:55.180
And I feel like the people fighting the no KYC fight
657
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:56.460
are our trench
658
00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:03.695
trench warfare guys. They're we're digging the trenches, and and we're fighting our fight. We're preparing for our fight to come.
659
00:54:04.075 --> 00:54:12.180
And and I sometimes it feels to me like the well, if we just accept the k y c, I feel like you're in no man's land right now. You're in between the trenches.
660
00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:20.525
I I don't understand why all these trade offs are made to survive an adversarial environment all the way down to the point of the individual
661
00:54:21.705 --> 00:54:24.365
being able to resist because I promise you,
662
00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:35.905
if an order was to come down of a self custody ban, just that, not a ban on Bitcoin because I don't think that'll ever happen, But just a ban on p to p transacting or self custody or whatever,
663
00:54:36.285 --> 00:54:37.505
from a legal standpoint.
664
00:54:38.125 --> 00:54:42.980
People that have never KYC before in their life will be turning their coins in.
665
00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:49.380
People will will will trip over each other to tell on their neighbor because they complied and their neighbor didn't.
666
00:54:49.785 --> 00:54:54.445
Like, the amount of compliance that we've seen in 2020, 2021, and now into 2022,
667
00:54:54.745 --> 00:55:03.050
I don't see how you have seen this world and how people react and still think that there would be any sort of, like, actual resistance
668
00:55:03.350 --> 00:55:03.850
if
669
00:55:04.310 --> 00:55:14.765
if the actual holders of the Bitcoin are just any old Joe Schmo and not somebody that's actually got into this thing understanding that I might be looking at a deadly fight coming in the future.
670
00:55:15.510 --> 00:55:21.210
And so I I I want to see people get on it, but not at the expense of of,
671
00:55:21.589 --> 00:55:29.760
you know, having to hand over their entire identity to do so. I don't think it's necessary. I really don't. I don't think adoption has failed to, to this point.
672
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:32.580
You know, we've went from 0 to a $1,000,000,000,000
673
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:33.940
asset without
674
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:39.505
having, quote, unquote, mass adoption. I don't understand where the failures are. I I feel like
675
00:55:39.904 --> 00:55:41.924
there's plenty of stuff that we've accomplished
676
00:55:42.545 --> 00:55:48.484
that that now this is their attack vector because we've cordoned off all the other areas of Bitcoin
677
00:55:48.785 --> 00:55:50.359
appropriately as we should,
678
00:55:50.660 --> 00:55:56.920
and that we've left the back door open. And it just it it it irritates me to no end to to
679
00:55:57.315 --> 00:55:58.535
see people that have
680
00:55:59.155 --> 00:56:01.575
likely never felt the weight of the state
681
00:56:02.115 --> 00:56:08.920
crushing down on them because it is a crushing feeling. Everything I need to know about Bitcoin, I learned in prison. And people will tell
682
00:56:09.380 --> 00:56:18.234
and people will comply because they're scared they're scared of losing their their freedom, their families, their money, their everything. They will comply. I promise you.
683
00:56:18.535 --> 00:56:23.915
And I feel like we have an ability now to get people like even the people on this panel
684
00:56:24.510 --> 00:56:26.450
that are willing to dig in,
685
00:56:26.750 --> 00:56:36.244
to absolutely dig their heels in and know this is this is not happening and fight through this fight. But it makes you not only willing, but it makes you able
686
00:56:36.625 --> 00:56:42.640
if you don't give over your whole identity to do so. I know you're willing, but I need you to be able as well.
687
00:56:43.420 --> 00:56:46.960
688
00:56:47.660 --> 00:56:48.480
it's it's
689
00:56:48.795 --> 00:56:56.734
I I think we should give more credence to the weight of political entrenchment. I mean, the political the the politically entrenched,
690
00:56:57.500 --> 00:56:59.760
firearm culture in the US has stayed
691
00:57:00.060 --> 00:57:03.920
the absolute tyranny of this COVID imperialism. Like, it Yeah. I would disagree.
692
00:57:04.380 --> 00:57:31.715
You could be in town to not see it at all. And and so why wouldn't we want Bitcoin to become politically entrenched? You already have senators and governors. You already have grandmas. You know, they're not trying to escape the fate. They're trying to defend themselves from inflation. You have Tucker Carlson talking about it. I don't think sailors are going to be carted off to a black site. Right? Bitcoin's legal property. So I want political entrenchment, broad political entrenchment. I want it to become an election issue,
693
00:57:32.170 --> 00:57:58.160
694
00:57:59.265 --> 00:58:04.065
to and I don't I don't see how I mean, this is something that I would actually likely,
695
00:58:05.505 --> 00:58:14.180
combine the side. They they would be willing to combine forces because everyone can agree that it's important that the United States has a stranglehold
696
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:23.454
on this, economy and on the US dollar. Like, we can't allow that to go away. Everyone can agree with that. Everybody can get on board with that. We have to be
697
00:58:23.755 --> 00:58:24.200
the
698
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:26.859
intransigent minority, and we can accomplish
699
00:58:27.640 --> 00:58:45.990
so much just being an intransigent minority. We don't need the whole point of these trade offs is to not need them to be, you know, politically aligned with us. It's great if they are, but I'm not begging for them because we've we've built the stuff to not have to. That's why it's the way it is. I that's what I don't understand.
700
00:58:46.610 --> 00:58:50.070
701
00:58:50.610 --> 00:58:51.110
firearms,
702
00:58:52.015 --> 00:58:52.515
which
703
00:58:52.815 --> 00:58:57.715
are meant for self protection and everything else, which regulation has been
704
00:58:58.335 --> 00:59:00.675
steadily increasing over time, which
705
00:59:01.280 --> 00:59:04.820
that right there in itself for Americans, like, that should be a sign.
706
00:59:05.280 --> 00:59:08.420
That should be your warning of how regulation can happen.
707
00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:09.540
Right? Like,
708
00:59:09.885 --> 00:59:11.984
they don't need to outright ban guns.
709
00:59:12.444 --> 00:59:21.420
Right? They don't. They can make they can make it so unattainable for you to do it that that you they get to select who basically gets to own guns.
710
00:59:21.720 --> 00:59:27.660
711
00:59:28.025 --> 00:59:32.605
They're doing the exact opposite thing if if what they wanna do is restrict gun ownership.
712
00:59:33.145 --> 00:59:34.925
713
00:59:35.250 --> 00:59:37.990
714
00:59:38.690 --> 00:59:43.190
715
00:59:43.845 --> 00:59:51.225
Right? Maintaining your training status. Like like, you can't just, like, go out and just buy guns and then be, like, okay. I'm ready to fight the state. You're not.
716
00:59:51.600 --> 00:59:57.540
You need to train. You need to go shoot. You need to practice, like like, all of those things, and that's why they know. I don't need to ban guns.
717
00:59:58.080 --> 01:00:05.155
Right? I'll make it It's about defending families. It's not about them fighting the state. We're making the nation more expensive. I'm just saying that looking at how
718
01:00:05.455 --> 01:00:06.195
the slow,
719
01:00:06.815 --> 01:00:08.435
the slow and steady regulation
720
01:00:09.150 --> 01:00:30.120
and increasing, like, regulation on firearms is a great example of why we should be worried. So we can say, yeah. Like, increase over 2 years. That's cool. That's because people are afraid, which is good. Right? Inflation should scare people in the Bitcoin. Yes. But, like, you have to think about the regulation on that side, and you're never gonna see. And on a a different note, you're never gonna see the establishment
721
01:00:30.980 --> 01:00:31.480
government,
722
01:00:32.260 --> 01:00:37.195
the current status quo that we have. It doesn't matter who's in who's present. It doesn't matter who's there.
723
01:00:37.495 --> 01:00:37.995
Right?
724
01:00:38.295 --> 01:00:43.835
Like, we're we're not going to see a day where people who come into power in the fiat system
725
01:00:44.369 --> 01:00:47.910
and are willing to just fight for a non fiat system.
726
01:00:48.289 --> 01:00:55.295
727
01:00:55.755 --> 01:00:56.815
the Bitcoin banner.
728
01:00:57.595 --> 01:01:01.430
729
01:01:01.890 --> 01:01:08.390
and that's easy. It's it's like it's like saying, like, oh, we believe like, how many times have we heard them say, like, oh, yeah. We're against censorship
730
01:01:08.865 --> 01:01:10.565
in, in the big tech space.
731
01:01:10.865 --> 01:01:26.570
Nothing happens. Nothing changes. It's a talking point. So, like, until something happens, then then I'll be convinced. Right? I don't wanna Well, I'm not gonna You don't wanna rely on this thing in order for Bitcoin to be successful. That's really what it comes What you are describing with no KYC is is essentially having people
732
01:01:26.915 --> 01:01:28.455
733
01:01:29.315 --> 01:01:39.030
away from the fiat checks and balances. I think that's a fine story to tell people as build an escape hatch and it's an emergency fund in case the state goes pathological.
734
01:01:39.650 --> 01:01:48.585
That is a broad message. We could tell that to the 100 of millions of Bitcoiners that come online. But but people are they're not trying to defeat the state. They're trying to
735
01:01:48.885 --> 01:02:14.490
preserve their time and and and defend them their families against inflation. That's the same rule with gun violence. They're not trying to join a militia and defeat the state. They're trying to defend their families. So I'm just saying as a matter of a onboarding progression, you wouldn't start with defeat the state. You say, yes, you can defend your family from inflation. You should hold the keys. You should buy firearms. When we all do it, power dynamics change to the state. It doesn't have unlimited
736
01:02:15.350 --> 01:02:23.155
access to our time, to our bodies. Right? And that's the point. I'm just I'm merely speaking to the network effects of political entrenchment.
737
01:02:23.935 --> 01:02:24.595
It worked.
738
01:02:25.190 --> 01:02:25.690
It's
739
01:02:26.230 --> 01:02:27.050
got yeah.
740
01:02:27.590 --> 01:02:30.470
741
01:02:31.750 --> 01:02:35.535
this this message of protecting your family gets inflation is is,
742
01:02:35.835 --> 01:02:41.935
you you know, is more resounding to to more people than it is to, you know, let's destroy the state. It's, I completely
743
01:02:43.520 --> 01:02:50.500
acknowledge that. The here's the problem as far as I could tell with that is because when you get people like a sailor
744
01:02:51.455 --> 01:02:55.935
in this situation and I'm just using him. I don't mean him specifically because
745
01:02:56.415 --> 01:02:58.115
listen. Here here's the thing.
746
01:02:58.490 --> 01:02:58.990
KYC
747
01:03:00.170 --> 01:03:04.030
okay. Fine. There's different aspects of Bitcoin because
748
01:03:04.330 --> 01:03:08.825
many, many, many people in this world do not view Bitcoin as a peer to peer permissionless,
749
01:03:09.845 --> 01:03:15.145
the payments network. What they view it as is quite frankly a speculative asset, something that they can trade,
750
01:03:15.549 --> 01:03:23.089
There's something that they can maybe, you know, just a a a store of value, and there is no real transaction. They're not transacting. They don't care to transact.
751
01:03:23.704 --> 01:03:36.930
All they're trying to protect is their USD purchasing power, and I get that. Those people will likely go through KYC because who gives a shit? Because as you've, I think, correctly noted, they're just trying to protect their families from inflation.
752
01:03:37.390 --> 01:03:44.515
Now, the problem though here is that if you get so many of those that are only protecting against inflation,
753
01:03:44.895 --> 01:03:52.400
so that all we're doing is really just k y c n so we can hold this thing and precept our purchasing power, Nobody's guarding the transaction part of Bitcoin,
754
01:03:52.700 --> 01:03:55.440
the permissionless part of peer to peer transacting.
755
01:03:55.740 --> 01:04:06.715
And my fear is that as much as I do believe Saylor would defend Bitcoin's right to be legal as a store of value, I don't think he would put up one piece one of iota of a fight,
756
01:04:07.370 --> 01:04:09.870
really, truly over its peer to peer,
757
01:04:10.330 --> 01:04:23.315
you know, transaction ability outside of government regulation. I don't think he would at all. Now you might be able to make the argument to him that if you lose that peer to peer transacting ability, that it may affect his number go up situation.
758
01:04:24.015 --> 01:04:24.515
Possible.
759
01:04:25.010 --> 01:04:35.905
But the problem is it if we dig so many people in this, I'm just protecting against inflation, then, I mean, who actually does need to transact with Bitcoin? Who's actually transacting?
760
01:04:36.445 --> 01:04:45.980
As far as I could tell, the only people that would actually need to transact with Bitcoin in a way that is not regulated by the government, well, I mean, they must be criminals or dissidents.
761
01:04:46.359 --> 01:04:48.220
Why else would they want to transact
762
01:04:48.520 --> 01:05:00.815
763
01:05:01.190 --> 01:05:04.810
764
01:05:05.670 --> 01:05:11.714
if you get now now this is actually a pretty good example because you've got a this top down Bitcoin adoption
765
01:05:12.095 --> 01:05:21.069
through El Salvador, through the government that they're just dumping onto onto people, whatever it is, $30 worth of Bitcoin, whatever. Now it's legal to to transact with Bitcoin.
766
01:05:21.849 --> 01:05:22.349
But
767
01:05:22.809 --> 01:05:24.829
if we get that audience
768
01:05:25.130 --> 01:05:25.630
there
769
01:05:26.145 --> 01:05:32.645
now to actually understand what Bitcoin is, because as you've, I think, correctly noted, it's hard to deny
770
01:05:32.950 --> 01:05:44.735
that the vast majority of adoption as it happens right now comes through k y c initially. And that's generally because most people don't understand what the hell Bitcoin is when they first buy it. I know I didn't. I thought it was a stock.
771
01:05:45.675 --> 01:05:52.309
I didn't know what I had. But the day that I felt like I kinda understood what Bitcoin was, I immediately
772
01:05:52.609 --> 01:06:00.265
began trying to figure out how I could sever my identity from it. Now if we can get that same exact community in El Salvador
773
01:06:00.725 --> 01:06:01.385
to understand
774
01:06:01.925 --> 01:06:08.890
that this Bitcoin thing really is powerful and it really does give you the power back instead of these oligarchs and,
775
01:06:09.589 --> 01:06:19.815
all these people elites ruling the world, it really does give you individual power back, then I guarantee you they'll be they'll they'll be ready to take that once they've understood this.
776
01:06:20.195 --> 01:06:27.960
It it the no KYC is what allows them to actually have the power and not be acting in a permissioned way. Like, otherwise,
777
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:30.119
I'm just making the transactions
778
01:06:30.420 --> 01:06:33.880
that whoever says to make. And I don't understand how
779
01:06:34.984 --> 01:06:39.005
the problem with, as I see it, with mass adoption, quote, unquote,
780
01:06:39.865 --> 01:06:47.540
quite frankly, is is custody. That's where you run into a problem with mass adoption. That's why I'm not I'm not this mass adoption guy that that,
781
01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:52.635
tries to get as many people onboarded as quickly as I can. I don't think that's a good,
782
01:06:52.955 --> 01:06:54.735
good strategy simply because
783
01:06:55.755 --> 01:06:56.415
the masses
784
01:06:56.715 --> 01:07:01.570
and and I'm sorry. I will not have my mind changed on it. The quote, unquote masses
785
01:07:01.950 --> 01:07:10.345
will not ever hold their own keys. You might be able to get an uncle gym type scenario where you hold your keys for your family, but the vast majority
786
01:07:10.645 --> 01:07:17.369
in a mass adoption type scenario, I don't see any other way around it than they would hold their keys with a trusted third party. So
787
01:07:17.910 --> 01:07:18.730
I feel like
788
01:07:19.190 --> 01:07:33.195
we can get to that point, but to get to that point, we need to get through this fight first. Like, there's no I don't see any reason why anyone would put their flag down, politically even, and stand up for the right
789
01:07:33.530 --> 01:07:34.270
to transact
790
01:07:34.890 --> 01:07:41.630
outside of government regulations with Bitcoin in a permissionless I don't understand where that where how that gets here politically.
791
01:07:41.994 --> 01:07:43.134
Now to transact,
792
01:07:43.515 --> 01:07:52.450
sure. But not to do so in a purely peer to peer fashion outside of regulation. I don't understand how anybody tries to make that case to get elected. I don't see it.
793
01:07:56.830 --> 01:07:57.890
794
01:07:58.510 --> 01:08:02.205
account from, Twitter, that really iconic account that disappeared
795
01:08:02.585 --> 01:08:03.405
in this chat?
796
01:08:03.705 --> 01:08:11.760
797
01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:17.545
one of the reasons I created Dispatch was so that he could participate without doxing his voice.
798
01:08:18.405 --> 01:08:20.165
799
01:08:20.805 --> 01:08:26.820
Odell had him on, and I had to do the voice over for him. No. No. Lavera had had 6102
800
01:08:27.199 --> 01:08:29.219
801
01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:32.820
Yeah. You're right. Right. 6102 made a very good point,
802
01:08:34.065 --> 01:08:39.284
that I feel like hasn't been properly highlighted here, which is that KYC isn't just about the risk of the state.
803
01:08:39.665 --> 01:08:44.300
The company is collecting the info, and and the state are incapable of keeping the information safe.
804
01:08:44.760 --> 01:08:49.420
Once it's recorded at registration, it's inevitable that it will eventually be accessed by criminals,
805
01:08:49.885 --> 01:08:52.865
which is it's an absolutely crucial point here because
806
01:08:53.405 --> 01:08:59.105
the whole the whole excuse that is used for KYC AML regulation and these
807
01:08:59.700 --> 01:09:02.920
rapidly growing list of Bitcoiners in our transaction history
808
01:09:03.220 --> 01:09:05.080
is that it stops criminal activity.
809
01:09:05.460 --> 01:09:08.920
But criminals are just either buying KYC data,
810
01:09:10.405 --> 01:09:12.185
or they're they're stealing it.
811
01:09:12.725 --> 01:09:18.745
They they there's literally there's markets that are enabled by Bitcoin that allow them to to pay
812
01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:21.040
underprivileged people $40,
813
01:09:21.420 --> 01:09:23.040
a $100 worth of Bitcoin
814
01:09:23.420 --> 01:09:30.785
to go KYC on Binance for them so that they can get through those measures. But it's honest citizens that are getting fucked by
815
01:09:31.165 --> 01:09:37.580
816
01:09:38.060 --> 01:09:40.480
folks think that I'm, you know, I'm against these no KYC,
817
01:09:41.900 --> 01:09:46.320
methods. No. I think, you know, it's absolutely fundamental. We have a healthy and irreversible
818
01:09:46.780 --> 01:09:54.225
escape hatch that's growing. I just I I I can't follow the logic of how we get it to the beginning of the bit Bitcoin progression. Like,
819
01:09:54.820 --> 01:09:59.000
the the fundamental constraint that once I have a bunch of no KYC stats, I can't
820
01:09:59.540 --> 01:10:00.020
I can't,
821
01:10:00.420 --> 01:10:12.570
interact with the KYC world anymore. That's a hard thing that's a big pill to swallow for for, you know, for most of the world. Right? But we I don't I I don't understand this point though. I mean, there's like like I said,
822
01:10:13.130 --> 01:10:27.105
823
01:10:27.405 --> 01:10:39.340
824
01:10:39.719 --> 01:10:50.489
paper trail that any investigation would surface your so in the same way, you're gonna have to account where did that wealth came from. We see that you amassed wealth through your career in the KYC world. You held it in dollars.
825
01:10:50.869 --> 01:10:52.650
Okay. Now you're paying for assets.
826
01:10:53.989 --> 01:10:54.389
Where
827
01:10:54.949 --> 01:10:59.435
talk to us about in between. And and so all I'm getting at is, okay, I have a emergency
828
01:10:59.815 --> 01:11:00.315
stash,
829
01:11:00.695 --> 01:11:04.555
so that my family could flee if if if the state becomes pathological.
830
01:11:04.990 --> 01:11:08.530
We could go to, like, an El Salvador. It would be treated as money there.
831
01:11:08.910 --> 01:11:19.925
That would be really awesome and I hope more countries join. But I'm not going to pay my mortgage with those with that emergency stash because I don't want to all of a sudden have my legal name tied
832
01:11:20.330 --> 01:11:20.830
to,
833
01:11:21.290 --> 01:11:23.710
funds coming from this gray area. Right?
834
01:11:24.170 --> 01:11:28.635
That is that's not risk free. That's a different shaped risk. And so
835
01:11:29.675 --> 01:11:32.974
836
01:11:34.074 --> 01:11:35.215
if we're talking about
837
01:11:35.594 --> 01:11:39.310
some major purchase, like, you're gonna buy a house with cash,
838
01:11:40.490 --> 01:11:53.315
you know, obviously, you're gonna set up some red flags. But when we're talking about, like, paying a mortgage bill or, you know, which is what I see so often talked about or even making, you know, down payments of even even if we're talking, you know, 10,000, $15,000,
839
01:11:54.490 --> 01:11:55.210
like, those
840
01:11:55.690 --> 01:11:58.750
this is not, like, end of the world. You're busted.
841
01:11:59.850 --> 01:12:06.905
There's no point in having no KYC. I mean, sell the Bitcoin and do what you need to do with the fiat. Like, if we're living in both worlds still,
842
01:12:08.165 --> 01:12:15.450
then just do that. And if we're not living in both worlds still, if if this, you know, fiat world ends,
843
01:12:15.830 --> 01:12:30.875
and now, you know, we're we're in this Bitcoin era with only no KYC sets, I mean, I would I would I would just be shocked to find that that, I would still encounter the same exact problems of having to account for funds if we've already transitioned.
844
01:12:31.330 --> 01:12:32.790
So I don't understand really
845
01:12:33.490 --> 01:12:45.605
again, like I said, granted, if you're gonna buy a a a quarter or half a 1000000, a $1,000,000 home, no. You're not exactly gonna go sell your Bitcoin and and then walk up with cash and pay like that. I'll grant you that.
846
01:12:46.465 --> 01:12:52.310
But still, that doesn't mean you would, first of all, have to dox all of your non KYC stash
847
01:12:52.610 --> 01:12:57.830
or secondly, that regular everyday payments and activities can't be done with
848
01:12:58.625 --> 01:13:01.685
no KYC stats. I mean, it's done it's done regularly.
849
01:13:02.545 --> 01:13:11.850
Yeah. It's your it's your payroll one thing while I was thinking about it because that really just hit on me, but this the no KYC has a I mean, I'm sorry. KYC procedure has a very,
850
01:13:12.925 --> 01:13:16.425
strong tie to, like, the vaccine for me because the
851
01:13:17.005 --> 01:13:24.300
they both they both don't at all do what they're supposed to do, but everybody is being forced into doing it. You know what I mean? Well, I mean,
852
01:13:24.760 --> 01:13:29.740
853
01:13:30.905 --> 01:13:34.364
Most Bitcoiners seem to agree that that vaccine mandates
854
01:13:34.665 --> 01:13:41.370
are absolutely ridiculous that you walk into a bar or a restaurant or something, and that private business is required to take your vaccine
855
01:13:42.310 --> 01:13:44.730
your vaccine information, your medical information,
856
01:13:45.750 --> 01:13:47.770
your your private personal information.
857
01:13:48.150 --> 01:13:53.435
But everyone just turns a blind eye at at Bitcoin companies requiring all this information.
858
01:13:54.295 --> 01:13:55.755
859
01:13:56.070 --> 01:14:02.890
like, there there's plenty of companies that don't do that, but the problem is there's no money in creating another biz or,
860
01:14:03.565 --> 01:14:20.100
you know, another huddle holder or whatever, another peer to peer exchange where, you know, you can attempt to be more censorship resistant and offer people an onboarding into Bitcoin without having to do KYC. There's no money there. The money's in the shitcoin casino, and you can't have the shitcoin casino unless you have the KYC.
861
01:14:20.505 --> 01:14:29.965
That just so happens that if you also do those things, then you've got a nice stash of KYC that you can onboard tons of people through a Coinbase or a Kraken or whatever it is.
862
01:14:30.590 --> 01:14:45.665
So, you know, it all comes back. It's not as if, like, you know, this this just naturally progressed and Bitcoiners were searching out for a better regulatory standard. It's no. Like, people wanted to make exchanges so that they could become rich. They did.
863
01:14:46.285 --> 01:14:48.705
We followed because that's what the government.
864
01:14:49.130 --> 01:14:51.950
That's that that is the path of least resistance.
865
01:14:52.330 --> 01:15:13.830
And I feel like it's so obvious to me there's a reason that that's the path of least resistance. We always see them try to coerce and push and nudge people to do whether it's through psyops or regulations or whatever to do what is least damaging to the state. And so quite obviously, the road to KYC exchanges has been left wide open,
866
01:15:14.395 --> 01:15:15.455
with very little,
867
01:15:16.395 --> 01:15:23.820
you know, problems or pressure until they try to do something to step outside of it. And then the United States is all over them regardless of where they're at
868
01:15:24.460 --> 01:15:28.000
in the world. So, you know, I just don't see how it's any different that
869
01:15:28.540 --> 01:15:46.550
we all see of obviously, the KYC doesn't work. Everybody agrees. It's it's it's plain as day. It's pointless then to mandate for everyone to do this KYC. If it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, then it's pointless. So what is the point? The same as the vaccine. The point is the compliance.
870
01:15:47.010 --> 01:15:50.790
The cruelty is the point. The point is to be able to make people
871
01:15:51.205 --> 01:15:55.545
be or seek your permission in order to do what you're allowed to do. Otherwise,
872
01:15:55.925 --> 01:16:01.920
if that's not the way that it's done, then you might go off and get yourself some natural immunity, and then we can't control you.
873
01:16:02.460 --> 01:16:03.260
And I just
874
01:16:03.900 --> 01:16:05.280
the the parallels are there.
875
01:16:05.755 --> 01:16:09.055
876
01:16:09.515 --> 01:16:12.975
again, everyone on this panel is agreeing here that
877
01:16:13.460 --> 01:16:15.560
AML laws are a bad thing for society.
878
01:16:16.340 --> 01:16:27.115
It's it's more just about how do we best deal with that reality. That's that's really what this is about as I see it. I mean, there are obviously trade offs with these things. Right? If you want to acquire non KYC,
879
01:16:27.495 --> 01:16:33.500
you might not be able to acquire as much as you want to. Right? It's probably true even for me
880
01:16:34.120 --> 01:16:43.335
that I might not have as many stats if I hadn't gone through KYC for at least a portion of my stack. Now, of course, I also have non KYC coins,
881
01:16:44.195 --> 01:16:44.695
and
882
01:16:45.315 --> 01:16:45.815
that's
883
01:16:46.275 --> 01:16:54.930
one aspect of it. But I think the other point I just wanted to add in as well is that there was a bit of discussion, and I think Diverter and just in general, this is kind of the
884
01:16:55.405 --> 01:16:59.965
attack of of the idea of, see, mass adoption is not the way. And you know what? Maybe it's it's not
885
01:17:00.685 --> 01:17:03.025
but it's it's worthwhile thinking about this. Consider,
886
01:17:03.340 --> 01:17:07.440
would Bitcoin be at the prices now without the existence of the KYC exchanges?
887
01:17:07.820 --> 01:17:31.915
And now you could also say, look. That's an issue. I would rather have Bitcoin price be lower and have more hardcore people, and fine. That that could be the case. But I think let's point out because as you were saying, you were saying, well, look, Bitcoin is a $1,000,000,000,000 market. Well, what I'm saying is I don't think it would be it it might not be at that level if it weren't for the existence of these companies that, unfortunately, yes, they have comply with the with the government laws of their own
888
01:17:32.375 --> 01:17:50.205
national jurisdiction. But the point, as I said then, is maybe the point really is about trying to focus the adoption towards the quote, unquote, remnant. I think it's it's those people who are actually gonna try to fight this. Right? And so many of those people are Bitcoin people. They are the same kinds of people who are trying, at least, to push back against the hysteria
889
01:17:50.665 --> 01:17:54.364
and the other sort of COVID restriction stuff that's going on.
890
01:17:55.610 --> 01:17:57.710
But the fact that the restrictions
891
01:17:58.170 --> 01:18:17.679
still exist, I mean, is that the fault of the people who are trying to push back? They're at least trying. So I see this as there'll be a lot of people who are who want to get in, and they can't necessarily buy the same size that they would like to if if if they were gonna try to buy or, you know, purchase or acquire that same stack, non KYC,
892
01:18:18.060 --> 01:18:19.360
and they want in. So
893
01:18:20.060 --> 01:18:22.159
what do you what do you prefer to do?
894
01:18:22.525 --> 01:18:23.585
895
01:18:24.605 --> 01:18:25.905
I'll grant you that,
896
01:18:28.285 --> 01:18:30.785
coming into trying to make an extraordinarily
897
01:18:31.085 --> 01:18:31.985
large purchase,
898
01:18:32.500 --> 01:18:33.160
for example,
899
01:18:34.260 --> 01:18:37.780
right off the bat without doing KYC is obviously much,
900
01:18:38.260 --> 01:18:56.170
more difficult than it is to say, you know, get in slower dollar cost average, whatever you wanna call it, in, in a non KYC fashion. I I would then, you know, obviously, I would point to the peer to peer or the OTC type markets. It still could be done. It definitely would not be as easy.
901
01:18:56.725 --> 01:19:06.200
As far as the point of whether or not we would be here without these regulated exchanges, I mean, it's a hard point to argue, I guess, for or against that. I I guess, you know, the world may never know.
902
01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:07.420
Other than
903
01:19:08.040 --> 01:19:08.860
I would say
904
01:19:09.240 --> 01:19:10.680
it's hard for me to find,
905
01:19:11.960 --> 01:19:18.655
a, quote, unquote, black market type good, in the world that it's white market counterpart is less expensive.
906
01:19:20.155 --> 01:19:29.160
So I I don't know whether or not the price would be where it's at now. I I can't say. It may, it may not. But I do agree with you on your point about
907
01:19:30.100 --> 01:19:35.705
focusing adoption, and that's more of what I was trying to talk about earlier. I'm not trying
908
01:19:36.005 --> 01:19:41.305
to necessarily turn anyone away from adopting. It's more of a focus on adopting
909
01:19:41.770 --> 01:19:45.230
in such a way that we are better able
910
01:19:45.610 --> 01:19:46.090
to,
911
01:19:46.969 --> 01:19:51.469
you know, resist and be able to work whether or not they want us to or not.
912
01:19:51.995 --> 01:19:56.095
So I do think that's important, and, you know, this is where I get into what,
913
01:19:56.555 --> 01:19:59.535
Zelco talked about earlier and people with their audience.
914
01:20:00.890 --> 01:20:12.485
Because there's a lot to really say here. I mean, listen, in this world, you've got you've got leaders and you've got followers and you've got, you know, fighters and you've got engineers and builders. You've got all these different type of people, and we've got them all in Bitcoin.
915
01:20:12.864 --> 01:20:14.405
We've got them all in this panel.
916
01:20:16.100 --> 01:20:27.295
Matt is obviously a leader. Now now he tells people not to trust him, and he knows people trust him. He knows he's a leader. He's taken on that responsibility because he wants to lead. Now now the difference between,
917
01:20:27.835 --> 01:20:31.920
what I would call a good leader and and a selfish type leader is
918
01:20:32.560 --> 01:20:33.060
Matt
919
01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:34.980
gets his excitement
920
01:20:35.760 --> 01:20:39.620
from seeing other people do the things that he's led them towards.
921
01:20:40.145 --> 01:20:40.645
Not
922
01:20:40.945 --> 01:20:58.085
he doesn't get his excitement from being known as the guy that guided him there. He gets his excitement from seeing people actually get there. And that's a key distinction, I think. And that's why when we're talking about your audience, Stefan, like, you talk to a lot of people. You've got, you know,
923
01:20:58.625 --> 01:21:02.324
tons of followers on Twitter. You've got a huge podcast. You've got a very broad,
924
01:21:02.784 --> 01:21:15.150
podcast. You talk about all different kinds of things. So I wouldn't expect you necessarily to be constantly railing about, no k y c and and and, to everybody. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't fit with your audience.
925
01:21:15.755 --> 01:21:16.255
Zelco,
926
01:21:16.795 --> 01:21:20.415
he doesn't really do Twitter that much. Zelco is what I would call a builder.
927
01:21:20.955 --> 01:21:22.929
Zelco is building the stuff that we
928
01:21:23.809 --> 01:21:25.989
or or the people that are trying to be the leaders,
929
01:21:26.849 --> 01:21:35.835
are trying to lead people towards the bridges that Zelco has built. So he does he doesn't really he doesn't really count in more ways than one. That's true. But
930
01:21:36.534 --> 01:21:37.355
but but,
931
01:21:37.895 --> 01:21:40.074
you know, now this is where I get into
932
01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:41.940
to laser huddle. And,
933
01:21:42.480 --> 01:21:49.460
again, I we've talked before this. We've talked well, I'm sure we'll talk after. And, you know, all this is with the utmost respect.
934
01:21:50.055 --> 01:21:53.195
But when we come to LaserHollow, I feel like
935
01:21:53.815 --> 01:21:58.715
your audience is a sovereign audience. Like, that's who you've got. You've got
936
01:21:59.120 --> 01:22:01.540
you you've come up with your your
937
01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:04.740
great reset takes that people have really taken to.
938
01:22:05.360 --> 01:22:14.820
You've got an audience of willing people that are that are ready to listen to you because they see you want to be a leader. You've stepped up in a leadership role and you want it.
939
01:22:15.699 --> 01:22:20.119
And and that's that's admirable. I wanna see it. But the problem then is
940
01:22:20.420 --> 01:22:23.639
your audience, I feel like they're the sovereign individual.
941
01:22:24.165 --> 01:22:27.225
They're the people that recognize the great reset that sees
942
01:22:27.605 --> 01:22:34.190
all these problems and like you said, protecting their families from inflation and and and and and basically just an air of protection
943
01:22:34.650 --> 01:22:36.510
around them and their loved ones.
944
01:22:36.889 --> 01:22:37.389
So
945
01:22:37.690 --> 01:22:39.255
when your audience is
946
01:22:39.655 --> 01:22:41.675
virtually all this sovereign
947
01:22:41.975 --> 01:22:48.715
remnant type, for lack of a better word, I just don't understand why you wouldn't specifically tailor
948
01:22:49.240 --> 01:22:49.740
a
949
01:22:50.120 --> 01:22:52.460
more resistant path to them. Because
950
01:22:53.160 --> 01:22:57.420
once people get to that point of I recognize the sovereignty,
951
01:22:59.735 --> 01:23:21.365
once you get there, like, it's very easy to get you to, okay. Now let's do all this no KYC stuff. There's no need to go through the k y c procedures. I feel like you've got them right there. And if you could just lead your audience the rest of the way, like, I feel like they're ready to listen. And I've I've I get very discouraged when I see them going more, you know, k y c doesn't matter route,
952
01:23:22.145 --> 01:23:27.010
because I feel like a lot of these people that really are the types we want,
953
01:23:27.389 --> 01:23:31.730
they're gonna listen. They're gonna follow you. And I just feel like you've got responsibility
954
01:23:32.110 --> 01:23:34.050
as I do, and I take it very seriously
955
01:23:34.355 --> 01:23:37.175
that if peep even though I've got a fraction of the listeners
956
01:23:37.475 --> 01:23:39.655
that you are the followers you all do,
957
01:23:40.114 --> 01:23:47.010
but I take it very seriously. There's people listening to me. I may be putting them in a position to where they're gonna have to fight this thing,
958
01:23:47.330 --> 01:23:48.630
you know, down the road.
959
01:23:48.945 --> 01:23:54.165
And so that's what really irks me about the whole thing is I feel like we've got specific
960
01:23:54.465 --> 01:24:02.480
audiences, each of us. And I feel like, you know, for the most part, we try to do our best in in guiding them, and I just wish that
961
01:24:03.100 --> 01:24:06.165
the no k y c part took a bigger
962
01:24:07.025 --> 01:24:24.065
stance in that general message to the audience because I really think people are ready to hear it right now. They know this world is bullshit. They've seen this compliance. They've seen all this junk. They've seen what the state is willing to try to do to you with these vaccine mandates and all this stuff. Like, they're not gonna let up.
963
01:24:24.525 --> 01:24:30.545
And and if we can just handhold them right across the line, it doesn't matter that they came in initially through KYC.
964
01:24:30.845 --> 01:24:32.145
So what? So did I.
965
01:24:32.719 --> 01:24:38.579
Sell that shit or just stop doing KYC today and move on. I that that's that's it.
966
01:24:38.960 --> 01:24:39.940
967
01:24:40.325 --> 01:24:50.480
Let me just jump in and add a few points. Deverter, I think you made some great points there. I think it is about for well, to some extent for all of us up on the panel today,
968
01:24:50.860 --> 01:24:51.600
it's about
969
01:24:52.620 --> 01:24:56.240
trying to put out good, accurate information for people,
970
01:24:57.325 --> 01:25:04.065
And so I just wanna actually respond to a couple of points in the chat. I can't remember exactly who made those points because we scrolled a little past it, but, essentially,
971
01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:10.700
the point one of the commenters is trying to say is companies' holding isn't the same as individuals. And, yes, granted.
972
01:25:11.080 --> 01:25:20.265
But I think it's also the way I'm seeing this, and okay. Fine. Other people have a different view of this. I see this as a battle that must be fought on multiple fronts. I see this as
973
01:25:20.699 --> 01:25:22.719
even though I don't like politics,
974
01:25:23.260 --> 01:25:31.835
you know, what's the saying? You might not be interested in politics, but politics might be interested in you. And so I think that some of the
975
01:25:32.695 --> 01:25:35.675
responsible Bitcoin only companies that are trying to
976
01:25:36.030 --> 01:25:39.570
build an advocacy base and are at least trying to build up,
977
01:25:40.350 --> 01:25:42.770
some kind of advocacy to
978
01:25:43.205 --> 01:25:55.030
lessen the role of the state. And, yes, the role the the companies in the space may not have exactly aligned interest with fully non KYC, but they will at least try to push that Bitcoin is not illegal,
979
01:25:55.490 --> 01:26:08.895
and they will at least try to push that running a Bitcoin node or holding your own keys should not be illegal, and they will at least try to push back against things like capital gains, or unrealized capital gains taxes and things like that. So
980
01:26:09.610 --> 01:26:16.190
from my perspective, I obviously have a varied show. Right? I talk about a lot of different things on my show. I I have spoken
981
01:26:17.055 --> 01:26:24.835
a lot about privacy. I've I was, you know, one of the, for example, samurai wallet and talk about a lot of the coin join aspects. So I'm
982
01:26:25.550 --> 01:26:26.690
saying it, like,
983
01:26:27.470 --> 01:26:28.290
as long as
984
01:26:28.910 --> 01:26:30.770
you try to honestly put out information,
985
01:26:31.070 --> 01:26:40.280
then I think that's the key part. And if you explain to people, and even for me when I'm at a Bitcoin meetups and I'm trying to explain and teach a new coin, I I will still explain to them about
986
01:26:40.840 --> 01:26:45.820
some of the various risks and trade offs of KYC coin as opposed to acquiring non KYC
987
01:26:46.520 --> 01:26:47.500
coin. But
988
01:26:48.205 --> 01:26:51.165
for in in many cases, and I think this is the point that probably has to be
989
01:26:53.485 --> 01:26:55.330
when you speak to people out there
990
01:26:55.650 --> 01:27:03.990
to take that extra step for non k y c coin. So I think that that's the that's where the rubber meets the road. Right? It's easy to
991
01:27:04.965 --> 01:27:05.465
be
992
01:27:05.844 --> 01:27:19.555
ideologically pure in what you say, but when you are talking to people and trying to onboard a lot of people, and I don't mean in the mass adoption sense, I mean in the trying to, you know, adopt the right people, right, the the remnant people, how do you do that?
993
01:27:22.595 --> 01:27:27.095
994
01:27:27.429 --> 01:27:30.170
them it might have been 6 61 or 2, actually, but,
995
01:27:30.949 --> 01:27:37.494
you know, like, his example was meet up with a friend, have them pay for dinner, right, and then you pay them in Bitcoin.
996
01:27:37.875 --> 01:27:40.855
Right? Now there's their first no KYC transaction.
997
01:27:41.635 --> 01:27:42.135
But,
998
01:27:42.755 --> 01:27:44.375
you know, in general, right, like,
999
01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:45.340
it's
1000
01:27:45.640 --> 01:27:48.620
and again, this is coming from my personal experience of
1001
01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:59.850
how how do I frame everything? What am I you know, like, I I get people all the time as I'm sure everyone here does. As soon as someone finds out that, you know, normally finds out that you're into Bitcoin, they're like, oh,
1002
01:28:00.330 --> 01:28:04.830
like, you know, how how do I get into this? Like, I I wanna be rich and whatever. Right?
1003
01:28:05.370 --> 01:28:08.990
You know, how you how that conversation immediately goes from there
1004
01:28:09.555 --> 01:28:13.015
is is crucial. Right? Like, my conversations are about,
1005
01:28:13.635 --> 01:28:17.015
you know, are about privacy, about opting out, or about,
1006
01:28:18.035 --> 01:28:18.775
you know,
1007
01:28:19.320 --> 01:28:28.060
being sovereign. Right? All of these factors that that I find important, right, like censorship resistance, you don't want which is easy to pitch now. Right? Like, we just talked about,
1008
01:28:28.845 --> 01:28:31.025
you know, COVID and everything else. Like, censorship
1009
01:28:31.565 --> 01:28:32.865
is a is a easy sell.
1010
01:28:33.245 --> 01:28:34.065
Right? So,
1011
01:28:34.925 --> 01:28:42.610
when it comes down to it, and we talk about adoption and, you know, where would we be? Because it brings me back to, like, the
1012
01:28:44.350 --> 01:28:45.810
to, like, why Bitcoin
1013
01:28:46.275 --> 01:28:48.775
is great. Like, we all here agree
1014
01:28:49.155 --> 01:28:57.490
that Bitcoin is, you know, is one of the greatest tools that have ever been created that we know. Right? Like, I mean, that's at least like the marketing pitch. But
1015
01:28:58.190 --> 01:29:00.530
for all the reasons that we say that it's important,
1016
01:29:01.230 --> 01:29:09.295
what, like, what is it, and how do we put that out to people? Because if it's just like, hey. Get your hands on Bitcoin just to get there, and then eventually,
1017
01:29:09.915 --> 01:29:11.614
somewhere down the line, hopefully,
1018
01:29:12.130 --> 01:29:29.550
you go down the rabbit hole and you figure it out. Like, that might work, and that that's probably the case for everyone that's on this panel right now. We all probably started KYC, and then we all probably fucking figured it out from there. Right? But we're at a point now where, like, you know, KYC wasn't in, you know, 2015, 2016.
1019
01:29:30.170 --> 01:29:35.470
KYC was there, but, like, you know, it it wasn't the same as it is now, and and it's just getting worse.
1020
01:29:35.865 --> 01:29:36.605
You know? And
1021
01:29:36.905 --> 01:29:38.845
you're I I think it's in
1022
01:29:39.305 --> 01:29:53.050
before I continue, I just wanna say like like, you know, we me and Diverter, we keep saying, like, influencers are saying these things or people are saying this, and it makes us disheartened, and they're kinda talking at 2 sides of their mouth. And it's obviously not just directed at just YouTube.
1023
01:29:54.405 --> 01:29:54.905
It's,
1024
01:29:55.525 --> 01:29:59.625
you know, it's the majority of people on Twitter. Right? It's it's
1025
01:30:00.085 --> 01:30:01.065
all these people
1026
01:30:01.670 --> 01:30:03.530
who are quote, unquote influencers,
1027
01:30:04.390 --> 01:30:06.489
and it's really, really easy.
1028
01:30:06.870 --> 01:30:11.285
Right? It is really easy for someone to come up and tell everyone,
1029
01:30:12.625 --> 01:30:13.685
hey. Like,
1030
01:30:14.065 --> 01:30:15.125
just get into Bitcoin,
1031
01:30:15.505 --> 01:30:34.925
but always have no KYC. Right? That's your way of, like, getting around it. Right? Because then you gotta hit both parties. You're like, look, I support both. And it's not a knock on you guys, but it is just like, that is the easy path. That is the easiest thing that we could do. And, like, for talking about privacy and talking about no KYC, like, I applaud you guys. Right? But, like, the hard path,
1032
01:30:35.305 --> 01:30:36.685
the unpopular path
1033
01:30:37.219 --> 01:30:43.400
is talking about how to actually opt out, how to actually operate in this, like, no KYC
1034
01:30:43.780 --> 01:30:49.895
environment, like, how to actually live in a fiat world without KYC, or how to actually,
1035
01:30:50.275 --> 01:31:00.980
like, onboard people with this. How to actually onboard onboard people or help help fund things that, like, build no KYC avenues? Right? Like, how do we do that? Like, those
1036
01:31:01.440 --> 01:31:09.925
if if we had more effort, and there's no money in it. Like, as Dave Reuter said, there's no money in this. Like, who's gonna pay you? No one no one's gonna pay,
1037
01:31:10.385 --> 01:31:17.090
pay any influencer or anyone with any sort of actual amount of value, right, to come out and do it. That's why Bitcoin has no
1038
01:31:17.550 --> 01:31:24.525
real, like, marketing campaign. Right? Like like, we're not like the other shit coins that, like, have these big marketing campaigns and go out and make make
1039
01:31:25.065 --> 01:31:32.220
all sorts of, you know, ads and and whatnot. Right? Like, you see that from the exchanges. Right? Because they have the money. We don't have that.
1040
01:31:32.600 --> 01:31:38.460
Right? So what do we have? We have all those list of people that diverter said, influencers, builders,
1041
01:31:38.965 --> 01:31:42.745
which by the way, I take a knock at you calling me a builder and not a leader, but that's fine.
1042
01:31:44.485 --> 01:31:50.969
But, you know, like, where what are we doing to get there? Like, we all up here have agreed that, like, no KYC
1043
01:31:51.829 --> 01:31:53.690
is that important. It is important.
1044
01:31:55.405 --> 01:31:58.225
But then then the conversation is stopping at,
1045
01:31:58.685 --> 01:32:00.545
well, it's it's too hard.
1046
01:32:00.925 --> 01:32:03.905
It's too hard to get people to do these things.
1047
01:32:04.300 --> 01:32:06.000
Okay. I see an obstacle.
1048
01:32:06.940 --> 01:32:09.280
So what's what how do you get over the obstacle?
1049
01:32:09.820 --> 01:32:14.045
Right? If there's an obstacle in front of you, you have 2 options. You either quit and turn around
1050
01:32:14.925 --> 01:32:29.329
or you figure out how to get over that obstacle. That's it. Those are the only two ways that you can operate in life. You're not gonna run run straight into an obstacle a 100. You're not gonna run to a brick wall a 100 times and hope that, you know, on the 100th time that the brick wall falls down. It's not how it works. Right?
1051
01:32:29.630 --> 01:32:30.770
So, you know,
1052
01:32:31.309 --> 01:32:33.329
utilizing that KYC and being like, well,
1053
01:32:33.765 --> 01:32:36.985
you know, like, this is like a it's just a temporary thing.
1054
01:32:37.365 --> 01:32:41.385
I I like, that that to me doesn't solve any issues. That to me is is
1055
01:32:42.040 --> 01:32:56.045
it's the easy path. You know? We need to really figure out it it if everyone on here is that adamant about no KYC or that adamant about the risks of the state and that adamant about how great but how great Bitcoin is, you know, for its decentralizations,
1056
01:32:56.345 --> 01:33:04.860
for its, censorship resistance, you know, for anybody to be able to transact with anybody, any route, anywhere around the world. Right? And, you know, in an instant,
1057
01:33:05.800 --> 01:33:08.380
then why are we not building? Why are we not trying to
1058
01:33:08.875 --> 01:33:20.480
increase that onboard process? Like like, I I hear, like, obstacles, but there's nothing that's saying, like, hey. Let let's try to fix it. Like, someone puts out a guide, someone retweets it, and then I go, okay. That's good.
1059
01:33:20.780 --> 01:33:27.440
You know? Like, that's it. No no one's no one's actually trying. And don't get me wrong. Probably part of it is that the people that are
1060
01:33:27.885 --> 01:33:29.425
on as you know,
1061
01:33:29.965 --> 01:33:35.585
they actually are on 0, and they're all in Bitcoin, and they still operate in the Bitcoin in the Fiat world.
1062
01:33:36.060 --> 01:33:47.455
I'm sure that they don't wanna go out and advertise, you know, to everybody what their methods are, because, you know, that would be the next step for the state to, you know, to start censoring that those means,
1063
01:33:48.235 --> 01:33:50.574
to people operate outside of their control.
1064
01:33:51.030 --> 01:33:59.210
Because that's ultimately what it is. The fiat world is what controls us. And if we wanna be outside of control, the goal isn't to, you know, to appease
1065
01:33:59.510 --> 01:34:02.074
the to appease the government, to appease,
1066
01:34:02.534 --> 01:34:09.675
you know, regulators and, you know, exchanges and all other stuff. Like, yeah, sure, they they can have power and that's great. But
1067
01:34:09.980 --> 01:34:12.719
if you're if you work for somewhere that's over complying,
1068
01:34:13.100 --> 01:34:15.040
they're in exchange and they're over complying,
1069
01:34:15.580 --> 01:34:19.199
or they're not building tools that can actually benefit their users,
1070
01:34:19.505 --> 01:34:23.765
you know, like, what good is it? Like, what good are we doing? Because
1071
01:34:24.305 --> 01:34:28.485
we're we're just making excuses. That's what a lot of this ends up coming down to.
1072
01:34:29.300 --> 01:34:32.040
1073
01:34:32.980 --> 01:34:36.840
to your guys' credit, to the guys' on on here's credit, you
1074
01:34:37.515 --> 01:34:40.495
may have mentioned that, you know, you feel like the easy part is,
1075
01:34:40.875 --> 01:34:41.775
you know, saying,
1076
01:34:42.635 --> 01:34:47.349
I I I kinda support both. I I I I might kinda disagree with that a little bit because
1077
01:34:47.809 --> 01:34:49.269
I recognize fully,
1078
01:34:51.170 --> 01:34:57.415
I feel like the easy the easier road is to take, this sort of, fundamentalist,
1079
01:34:58.275 --> 01:35:16.574
never do KYC no matter what stance. And we see that all the time in the privacy space, especially if anybody's operating in the privacy space, you'll know. I mean, you'll get called, Get get called, you know, a LARP for, you know, hosting your own Bitward and running your own Bitward because it's not fully offline and all that stuff. Like, so the the fundamentalist stances
1080
01:35:16.900 --> 01:35:23.000
to in my opinion, are the easy ones to make. The hard ones to do are the ones where you try to figure out,
1081
01:35:24.125 --> 01:35:24.945
you know, adoption
1082
01:35:25.804 --> 01:35:30.225
in this environment that we're in. So I I I understand that,
1083
01:35:30.925 --> 01:35:34.070
but, you know, again, I go back to this point about audiences,
1084
01:35:34.929 --> 01:35:43.864
and it's why, you know, like I said, I appreciate Stefan. He talks about all this stuff. He's got a very broad audience. Matt constantly rails against KYC. I appreciate what he does.
1085
01:35:44.805 --> 01:35:55.160
You know, but you don't catch me, like, in Raoul Pal's mentions, you know, blabbing to everybody there about, you know, going on no k y c because they don't give a shit. They're they're
1086
01:35:55.615 --> 01:36:02.435
speculative. They're traitors. They don't care. So, you know, it's I feel like just standing in the middle of a square somewhere and shouting
1087
01:36:02.820 --> 01:36:09.400
no KYC at everybody that walks by doesn't get you a whole lot of places. But when you've already got that audience
1088
01:36:09.835 --> 01:36:17.054
that is that is there, that they're ready to be sovereign individuals, they're ready to take that next step, I think it's it's key. It's paramount
1089
01:36:17.434 --> 01:36:18.974
to to give it to them then.
1090
01:36:19.820 --> 01:36:22.239
1091
01:36:22.699 --> 01:36:27.360
I I don't I don't think the adoption curve is entering through Stefan and and and
1092
01:36:27.864 --> 01:36:32.045
myself. Like, I I think the the signal has spread so broadly.
1093
01:36:32.425 --> 01:36:38.130
You have Tucker Carlson talking to tens of millions of people about inflation. Right? So people are worried about inflation.
1094
01:36:38.910 --> 01:36:51.785
They, you know, it it really you know, I'm not saying it shouldn't be a progression that that that starts with people buying Bitcoin the wrong way. I'm saying it is. And and that's the reality is people, like, buy paper Bitcoin with their bank.
1095
01:36:52.885 --> 01:37:05.045
It's only when they end up with a talk with the Bitcoiner that it goes you know, that that you have time to say, hey. Get some sats and make sure you can stick them in a wallet. I'll show you how. Right? And and and and and so, like,
1096
01:37:05.505 --> 01:37:16.060
I I I guess my fundamental thing is that, like, we have to grapple with that reality that this the adoption curve is getting fatter and fatter, and it is entering through KYC.
1097
01:37:17.320 --> 01:37:20.815
You know, I have a huge audience that I I talk with about,
1098
01:37:21.594 --> 01:37:25.375
the great reset because I've been, you know, laser focused on,
1099
01:37:25.995 --> 01:37:33.520
the ways that they're upgrading the state, the ways that they're upgrading the monetary system starting in 2020. I think this whole decade, we're gonna see that,
1100
01:37:34.219 --> 01:37:42.545
unveil. You know, we're in this info war. It's literally like a World War 3. And so diverter said, you know, why aren't I telling people just to get in the trench?
1101
01:37:43.245 --> 01:37:46.190
Essentially disappear into no KYC. And and, like,
1102
01:37:46.590 --> 01:37:49.890
I actually think the most prudent thing is to think of it as a emergency,
1103
01:37:50.350 --> 01:38:02.350
an escape hatch. Like, make an emergency fund, grow it. And and they also think I the the same time, I'm being kind to the progression because I know when I was new at Bitcoin, it would sound like gibberish if someone said,
1104
01:38:02.670 --> 01:38:09.170
do all these things. Like, you know, it was overwhelming the idea of holding my own keys when I just got into Bitcoin in 2018.
1105
01:38:09.965 --> 01:38:13.505
So I I don't know what to do about that other than other than recognize,
1106
01:38:14.445 --> 01:38:21.400
I do want the adoption. I do want the political entrenchment. I do want number grow up. I do want I do want the broadest adoption
1107
01:38:21.860 --> 01:38:37.320
as possible. And then, like, my my semantic answer, my practical answer to owning Bitcoin wrong ways, people should rebalance because you start you think you have Bitcoin, you bought grayscale, oh, shit. Rebalance to physical sets that you can cuss Laser. Laser. Have
1108
01:38:37.699 --> 01:38:39.159
1109
01:38:39.699 --> 01:38:43.239
you keep talking about people who buy Grayscale, buy GBTC,
1110
01:38:43.935 --> 01:38:44.915
buy, like, this,
1111
01:38:45.375 --> 01:38:46.995
you know, faux ETF,
1112
01:38:47.535 --> 01:38:51.395
and don't understand the trade offs, and they should, you know, they should stack
1113
01:38:52.120 --> 01:38:54.460
self custody instead, KYC SATS.
1114
01:38:55.000 --> 01:39:00.620
How is that any different than someone who buys KYC SATS and doesn't realize the trade off?
1115
01:39:01.285 --> 01:39:06.105
Like, how how it what what is where is the difference there, and how do how does buying
1116
01:39:06.565 --> 01:39:07.065
Bitcoin
1117
01:39:07.820 --> 01:39:11.440
attached to your personal identity and all your intimate personal information
1118
01:39:11.900 --> 01:39:17.040
protect you from a great reset? Like, we talk we talk about 6102 all the time.
1119
01:39:17.375 --> 01:39:17.875
Yep.
1120
01:39:18.255 --> 01:39:22.034
We're gonna have super burdensome regulation that comes down on Bitcoin
1121
01:39:22.574 --> 01:39:29.980
as part of this great reset. We already have super burdensome regulation on Bitcoin that no one talks about, which is the fact that if you spend Bitcoin,
1122
01:39:30.600 --> 01:39:32.460
you know, the state takes 30%
1123
01:39:32.840 --> 01:39:34.780
of of that of that transaction
1124
01:39:35.405 --> 01:39:42.865
and then takes income tax on top of that from whoever whoever you're paying to. Yeah. So, fundamentally, I think there's 2 strategies
1125
01:39:43.170 --> 01:39:53.284
1126
01:39:54.304 --> 01:39:55.045
like, political
1127
01:39:55.425 --> 01:39:59.764
slant where you actually see people on the right taking it up. It might even be
1128
01:40:00.224 --> 01:40:13.845
a election issue with this Hillary versus Trump 2024 thing. So even though that's cringe, I think it's actually good because it screams political entrenchment. So I think that is a strategy and I wanna see broad adoption in that way. At the same time,
1129
01:40:14.225 --> 01:40:16.885
people shouldn't be naive about KYC persecution.
1130
01:40:18.065 --> 01:40:20.770
Re you know, most people end up with KYC
1131
01:40:21.550 --> 01:40:38.500
Bitcoin rebalance. What's your allocation of no KYC Bitcoin? Because the the reality is if they 6102 this stuff, you'll be psyched if you have it in a wallet, but you're still gonna have to answer for it if, you know, they have they understand how much Bitcoin you have. So, you know, I want families positioned for both strategies
1132
01:40:38.880 --> 01:40:42.900
so that they can flex through this decade. Because the idea that
1133
01:40:43.360 --> 01:40:48.625
the KYC has its own trade offs. There's no k y no KYC. They have opposite shaped trade offs.
1134
01:40:48.925 --> 01:40:51.505
So, people need to be realistic about that.
1135
01:40:52.765 --> 01:40:56.330
1136
01:40:57.030 --> 01:41:04.835
I because I I agree with you. Like, as as you said, the the adoption curve of the funnel that was going around for a while a while back, the funnel,
1137
01:41:05.535 --> 01:41:07.074
the end is getting much wider.
1138
01:41:08.015 --> 01:41:15.570
Much more people are being introduced to Bitcoin and and beginning to to see the value and being able to store store their hard earned,
1139
01:41:16.130 --> 01:41:21.510
you know, value time value in an asset that's not able to be just deflated on a whim.
1140
01:41:22.335 --> 01:41:23.475
Grant you all that.
1141
01:41:23.775 --> 01:41:33.210
My issue then is that, obviously, that's not who we're speaking to. I'm not speaking to that person. I don't know that person. Tucker Carlson is speaking to that person.
1142
01:41:33.590 --> 01:41:35.449
What I wanna make sure of is
1143
01:41:35.750 --> 01:41:36.810
as because
1144
01:41:37.295 --> 01:41:45.080
the the real true reality is they don't understand what they're holding. They just know that this thing is only gonna be 21,000,000 of it. Now
1145
01:41:45.619 --> 01:41:57.985
to me, that is that that's sending them into a construction site without a hard hat. Like, they don't understand what they're walking into, and I'm not giving them any sort of protection. Now I can't give them any protection when they're listening to Tucker,
1146
01:41:58.445 --> 01:42:08.235
obviously, but what I can do is I can make sure that wherever I am at, wherever I do have an audience, if they show up there, the first thing they're gonna see
1147
01:42:08.554 --> 01:42:27.050
is talk about the the the potential threats and the adversarial style of thinking that has gotten Bitcoin to even be able to survive to this point, because had it not been for taking these exact trade offs and and forming this adversarial mindset that we're going to run a parallel system regardless
1148
01:42:27.415 --> 01:42:33.275
of whether it's politically entrenched or not. It's going to run. That's only possible because we made
1149
01:42:33.735 --> 01:42:35.675
these these trade offs, these specific
1150
01:42:35.980 --> 01:42:37.840
purposeful trade offs to not,
1151
01:42:38.940 --> 01:42:41.599
you know, be at their whims. And I just don't
1152
01:42:41.980 --> 01:42:46.905
I've been I I guess maybe I'm too disillusioned with politics at this point. I I'm not
1153
01:42:47.605 --> 01:42:56.270
I wouldn't necessarily say burn it all down because that's just not probably how things are gonna go. But the the fact of the matter is as far as relying on the political,
1154
01:42:58.090 --> 01:43:00.555
as as, like, a strategy as far as,
1155
01:43:01.195 --> 01:43:02.395
adoption or even,
1156
01:43:02.955 --> 01:43:06.595
legal ramifications. I'd I'd I just don't see it because I've seen
1157
01:43:07.035 --> 01:43:14.430
I think just, like I said, with this vaccine mandate, I mean, it was half the country. It was vehemently opposed to it. So is does that mean we're gonna have to have
1158
01:43:14.890 --> 01:43:22.065
60% of United States Bitcoiners that are holding their own keys before it's politically untenable? I don't even think that's the case
1159
01:43:22.525 --> 01:43:24.780
because this is a unite all sides,
1160
01:43:25.340 --> 01:43:29.039
issue here. The United States is losing their global dominance,
1161
01:43:30.139 --> 01:43:38.645
you know, to this magic Internet money. There's I just don't I don't I can't wrap my head around it. I don't see how it could be possible without there being some sort of
1162
01:43:39.910 --> 01:43:42.490
attempt to drastically neuter
1163
01:43:42.950 --> 01:43:43.850
this permissionless
1164
01:43:44.310 --> 01:43:49.050
network so that they can exercise some sort of control over it. Because otherwise,
1165
01:43:49.655 --> 01:43:51.114
if if, you know,
1166
01:43:51.495 --> 01:43:57.515
whoever Joe Schmo out there sees that Tucker clip and goes out and buys himself some Bitcoin on Coinbase,
1167
01:43:58.790 --> 01:44:06.410
you know, maybe he leaves it there. Maybe he never knows anything. But, again, that's that's not our audience. That's not who we're talking to. That's that that's not our fighters.
1168
01:44:07.195 --> 01:44:11.934
You know, and you can't get mad at the person that's not a fighter. I used to laugh at all the time.
1169
01:44:12.315 --> 01:44:32.865
People that were criminals would get mad when, you know, the little old lady down the street called the cops on them. What the that's that's her job. That's what she does. She's not a fighter. She she's a civilian. And so, you know, these people that are just buying Bitcoin because and they don't really understand it. They just know it can't be inflated away. Fine. That's all good and fine. What I'm hoping for though is that
1170
01:44:33.500 --> 01:44:40.960
if they or anyone around them then begin to actually dig into what this thing is, I want as soon as possible,
1171
01:44:41.315 --> 01:44:45.895
I want them to be able to to come across an aspect and a perspective
1172
01:44:46.275 --> 01:44:52.980
to where they understand that there's an entirely different side to this thing, and it it may just not be our roses and sunshine forever.
1173
01:44:53.280 --> 01:45:02.514
And, I mean, we're already in a war right now. It's already happened as you've pointed out, and you continue to point out with your great reset takes, like, as you're which I appreciate, by the way.
1174
01:45:03.855 --> 01:45:07.954
You know, the the it's happening now. Like, this is this is not just some future,
1175
01:45:08.570 --> 01:45:12.110
problem that we're talking about. Like, today, the war is currently fighting.
1176
01:45:12.489 --> 01:45:26.230
And so I want as soon the in the hive top 100, I want 97 of them to be no k y c advocates. I want this this when whenever anybody is introduced to the wider Bitcoin audience or to the leaders
1177
01:45:26.610 --> 01:45:27.909
of this Bitcoin movement.
1178
01:45:28.369 --> 01:45:37.695
Not that everybody takes their cues from Stefan or you or me or Matt or anybody else, but they eventually come for a community. We've seen it happen.
1179
01:45:38.050 --> 01:45:40.550
I want that community to be one that
1180
01:45:41.250 --> 01:45:45.830
enables them to best protect themselves and their loved ones so that
1181
01:45:46.325 --> 01:45:47.705
no matter what happens,
1182
01:45:48.325 --> 01:46:07.605
they're able to they're they're able, not just willing. I mean, you you can be willing to fight, but you can't fight for shit. You're just gonna get beat up. So if you if you're not if you if you've bought all k y c, and, yeah, you're holding it in your own wallet, but then when they declare it illegal and they know you've bought this, or, you know, self custody illegal and they come for you,
1183
01:46:08.625 --> 01:46:13.125
very, very vanishingly small amount of people are gonna actually resist that.
1184
01:46:13.810 --> 01:46:14.310
Now
1185
01:46:15.090 --> 01:46:15.910
in my opinion,
1186
01:46:16.290 --> 01:46:17.430
the best possible
1187
01:46:17.970 --> 01:46:27.125
chance that we have to have people that actually are able and willing to resist it is to have those that aren't on their, you know, easily accessible
1188
01:46:27.560 --> 01:46:35.465
subpoenaed list or don't even need a subpoena with a third party doctor. They can get all that information from the exchanges. So if we have a nice
1189
01:46:35.945 --> 01:46:40.205
selection of people that aren't subject to this rule,
1190
01:46:41.465 --> 01:46:45.860
those are our fighters. And and I just think we, especially on here,
1191
01:46:46.320 --> 01:46:51.699
maybe with the exception of Stefan and Matt, they've got a little bit larger audiences. But us 3,
1192
01:46:52.595 --> 01:46:58.295
remainders, I feel like like that's that's the only people we're talking to are the people that are ready.
1193
01:46:59.370 --> 01:47:14.315
1194
01:47:14.750 --> 01:47:21.730
and they're entering through all these different avenues, then they get to us. You're saying we should lean in heavier on
1195
01:47:22.574 --> 01:47:24.034
do you take issue with the angle?
1196
01:47:24.415 --> 01:47:25.715
If if I'm saying, look,
1197
01:47:26.494 --> 01:47:34.510
mine at home, build a no KYC stack, you know, that's destined for the Bitcoin only economy. You know, that's kinda how I think about it.
1198
01:47:34.970 --> 01:47:45.655
That's it's it's like this in between place between where you are and where, like, a sailor where sailors kind of like, look, CBDs, these are coming. Let them have the currency. You just treat this as digital property.
1199
01:47:46.140 --> 01:47:56.495
1200
01:47:56.875 --> 01:47:59.295
to in order to acquire this Bitcoin. Now
1201
01:47:59.675 --> 01:48:00.175
sure.
1202
01:48:00.555 --> 01:48:05.100
As you I mean, you're gonna go buy a house. You're still gonna have to account for that wealth.
1203
01:48:05.800 --> 01:48:18.505
You know? Yeah. And you could you could answer for that. Sure. But I just don't under that's it's not as if that can't be done if it's still, if you acquire those through non KYC means. It isn't like you have to have a KYC,
1204
01:48:19.605 --> 01:48:28.150
backlog to shove that. What are you gonna have to pay taxes? I mean, you're still you're claiming it. You're not trying to hide it. I just don't understand why there has to be a separated
1205
01:48:28.905 --> 01:48:30.364
thing. Like, I know
1206
01:48:30.905 --> 01:48:34.205
I use my non KYC Bitcoin regularly. I mean,
1207
01:48:34.585 --> 01:48:38.890
2, 3, 4 times a week, I make purchases with my non KYC sets,
1208
01:48:39.510 --> 01:48:47.930
or I'll might sell, like, hop on to BISK and sell a little bit. Somebody saved me the other day. I needed a little cash, didn't have any hopped on BISK sold and done.
1209
01:48:48.265 --> 01:48:54.345
And, you know, I didn't have a a KYC background for those, and I was able to go pay my bill. So, I mean, I just
1210
01:48:54.665 --> 01:48:59.710
it's completely plausible to live in the world without having to acquire through KYC.
1211
01:49:00.250 --> 01:49:12.030
Once you have wrapped your mind around the fact that this KYC stuff is what it is and that you don't have to do it, you're really only doing it as far as I can tell for the convenience,
1212
01:49:12.489 --> 01:49:15.949
which granted is quite a bit more convenient sometimes,
1213
01:49:17.745 --> 01:49:26.645
you know, or or maybe even the fees because it could cost a little bit more. You know, there there's obviously downsides to go on the non k y c route. But as far as I can tell,
1214
01:49:27.000 --> 01:49:27.739
the potential
1215
01:49:28.520 --> 01:49:29.020
downside
1216
01:49:29.400 --> 01:49:30.139
of not,
1217
01:49:30.599 --> 01:49:34.619
protecting yourself through, you know, staying off of their databases
1218
01:49:35.165 --> 01:49:45.969
is just so much more drastic than than anything else. I just can't. There that's that's like the one compromise. That is the absolute red line for me. Like, KYC
1219
01:49:46.510 --> 01:49:48.449
is a nonstarter for me.
1220
01:49:48.750 --> 01:49:51.010
Point blank period. And, you know,
1221
01:49:51.550 --> 01:49:55.805
1222
01:49:56.185 --> 01:50:08.050
I think there's trillions of KYC wealth that's going to be KYC in Fiat or Bitcoin that comes online. I want it I I'd rather it be stored in Bitcoin. You know, it's it's institutionalized
1223
01:50:08.350 --> 01:50:21.540
wealth. It's small businesses. It's corporations. They don't have an easy way to to to basically go into the Bitcoin only economy yet. Yeah. At the same time, let's grow that remnant. I agree with you. Well, the yeah. They they they can do
1224
01:50:22.159 --> 01:50:31.625
1225
01:50:31.930 --> 01:50:33.390
you know, high net worth individuals,
1226
01:50:34.090 --> 01:51:01.595
they have they have no interest in in fighting against the state. They'll be the 1st to comply. That's not that's again, though, that's that's not our audience. It's not who we're talking to. That's not who Laser Huddl's talking to on Twitter. That's not who Diverter's talking to on Twitter. I'm not talking to corporations. I'm not talking to high net worth individuals. I'm talking to the people in the trenches. That's who's following me. That's who's, you know, reading my articles. That's who's reading my shit takes on Twitter and never liking or retweeting them.
1227
01:51:02.295 --> 01:51:04.395
You know, so, like, I feel like
1228
01:51:04.935 --> 01:51:13.420
I just don't know how I would I can square the circle of me knowing that I'm talking to these sovereign individuals and me believing
1229
01:51:14.015 --> 01:51:16.995
fully in my heart that if this thing that we're in,
1230
01:51:17.455 --> 01:51:20.915
if it is successful in doing the thing that it's built to do,
1231
01:51:21.455 --> 01:51:23.475
I don't know how we get around the fight.
1232
01:51:24.239 --> 01:51:27.860
It could fail, and we don't ever have to fight. But if it's successful,
1233
01:51:28.480 --> 01:51:59.870
1234
01:52:00.730 --> 01:52:03.230
hold your damn keys at the you know,
1235
01:52:03.770 --> 01:52:05.085
that's where I'm at with it.
1236
01:52:06.285 --> 01:52:07.505
1237
01:52:07.965 --> 01:52:09.665
I had some thoughts, and I just,
1238
01:52:10.125 --> 01:52:11.745
we we kinda talked about,
1239
01:52:12.125 --> 01:52:12.785
the fighters
1240
01:52:13.660 --> 01:52:22.560
and people who we want to be in Bitcoin. We can't control who goes into Bitcoin. Right? But, like, who we're talking and and how we're pushing people is the important part, but, like,
1241
01:52:23.085 --> 01:52:26.145
accepting that the KYC exchanges are okay.
1242
01:52:26.765 --> 01:52:28.465
Right? Like, they're okay right now,
1243
01:52:28.925 --> 01:52:44.045
or, like, you know, because it's it's unavoidable, let's just, like, get on board and and try to get people to go, like, an escape hatch or whatever for now. And you're not in again. Isn't what I feel like? I don't want you to feel super triggered. I did the same
1244
01:52:44.425 --> 01:52:57.540
little, like, routine when I was talking when I did the node 1, I was talking to Matt Hill. I felt like he felt very attacked, and, wasn't wasn't the case. Again, this is, like, just speaking to, like, you know, the Twitter Twitterverse as a whole.
1245
01:52:58.355 --> 01:52:58.855
But,
1246
01:52:59.475 --> 01:53:09.530
like, would everyone here be as, you know would you guys be, like, as, like, okay with KYC if we were if they were limiting the people that were able to buy Bitcoin?
1247
01:53:09.910 --> 01:53:10.890
So, like, if,
1248
01:53:11.270 --> 01:53:14.490
you know, the restrictions got harder and who you could actually
1249
01:53:14.905 --> 01:53:23.085
who was actually allowed to to buy KYC Bitcoin. Are you are we gonna be on a like, are you guys gonna be on board? Or is it gonna be, oh, shit.
1250
01:53:23.510 --> 01:53:27.210
Now we have to change. Right? Like, I feel like right now, it's a convenience
1251
01:53:27.750 --> 01:53:44.550
of, like, well, you know, they're they're allowing people. Like, they're not really restricting much, and it's and it's pretty easy. Right? Like, so I think we're good. Right? But, like, we're we're not thinking down the line or thinking, like, you know, thinking about, like, what what's gonna happen between now
1252
01:53:45.010 --> 01:53:45.410
and this,
1253
01:53:46.050 --> 01:53:46.550
proverbial,
1254
01:53:48.344 --> 01:53:48.844
imaginary,
1255
01:53:49.304 --> 01:53:50.125
hyper Bitcoinization,
1256
01:53:50.905 --> 01:53:52.284
no fiat world,
1257
01:53:52.905 --> 01:53:55.485
right, where where that KYC didn't matter.
1258
01:53:56.610 --> 01:53:58.070
The the reality is that,
1259
01:53:58.690 --> 01:54:10.255
you know, KYC, and and I'll turn this over to you guys, but, like, if KYC, they just started to, you know, the state, whether it's in the US or whether it's UK or wherever, if they just started limiting who could buy.
1260
01:54:10.715 --> 01:54:24.735
Right? They said, oh, you know, or if we start to have a social score or whatever, they're like, oh, well, you're not high enough on the social score, you don't get to buy Bitcoin. You're not That's already happening. We're already destined towards no cash, towards full surveillance, and and
1261
01:54:25.275 --> 01:54:27.215
But that's not gonna be my Bitcoin. Right?
1262
01:54:27.710 --> 01:54:30.610
Yeah. But but, like account completely Bitcoin. Right?
1263
01:54:31.230 --> 01:54:33.810
1264
01:54:34.110 --> 01:54:58.385
analog fiat world, and we're switching to a digital fiat world. And in and in that world, you know, the the method of, like, trying to pay your mortgage with a cash or money order or whatever, trying to buy things, That slowly disintegrates. So there's there's a problem that we have to contend with there, and I don't have a great answer other than to say, like, that's coming and that's real. So, like and that and that's why I'm, like, pointing it out. Right? Like, KYC is acceptable
1265
01:54:58.820 --> 01:55:02.920
1266
01:55:03.380 --> 01:55:05.080
super defensive about KYC,
1267
01:55:05.860 --> 01:55:07.960
which blows my mind that, like,
1268
01:55:08.365 --> 01:55:10.305
being KYC being defensive
1269
01:55:10.685 --> 01:55:12.465
of, like, it's okay to be KYC.
1270
01:55:13.005 --> 01:55:13.505
Like,
1271
01:55:14.045 --> 01:55:24.970
you know, like, oh, well, like, everyone should KYC. Like, how else? How are we gonna think of the grandmas. You know? Like and and it wasn't just you saying. There was a lot of people on Twitter just saying, like, think of grandma. And I'm like, I don't care really, like,
1272
01:55:25.435 --> 01:55:31.295
you know, like Deborah said, like, grandma's not the fighter. Right? Like, it's it's, like, what does it do? Community
1273
01:55:32.315 --> 01:55:41.000
1274
01:55:41.355 --> 01:55:52.850
1275
01:55:53.230 --> 01:55:58.130
your retirement, and you just put it into Bitcoin because you bought it on exchange because it was easy for grandma,
1276
01:55:59.425 --> 01:55:59.925
then
1277
01:56:00.545 --> 01:56:03.364
the state still knows that she has Bitcoin. The state
1278
01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:10.120
knows that she has the money. So when they wanna come for a while, you know, their their capital gain
1279
01:56:12.575 --> 01:56:25.860
1280
01:56:26.160 --> 01:56:29.300
change the adoption curve that is entering through KYC?
1281
01:56:29.600 --> 01:56:33.925
I haven't heard an answer other than Stefan and I should preach no KYC more
1282
01:56:34.305 --> 01:56:43.190
1283
01:56:43.730 --> 01:56:45.429
other than saying it's good.
1284
01:56:45.969 --> 01:56:46.469
Right?
1285
01:56:47.145 --> 01:56:49.565
And there are people that are advocates for no KYC,
1286
01:56:49.945 --> 01:56:55.645
and they generally be tend to be the, you know, the smaller audience people, like Diverter,
1287
01:56:56.050 --> 01:56:57.910
you know, doesn't have that many followers.
1288
01:56:58.930 --> 01:57:00.630
But, you know, you you
1289
01:57:01.970 --> 01:57:03.030
we are not building
1290
01:57:03.435 --> 01:57:11.295
anything greater, or we're not how how do we expand this? How do we make more money orders on this? How do we increase liquidity?
1291
01:57:11.640 --> 01:57:14.700
You know, like, those are the things that, like, are very important.
1292
01:57:15.320 --> 01:57:15.720
Or
1293
01:57:16.200 --> 01:57:42.645
like, someone just made a good point. How do we build a better peer to peer answer? Like, how do we build how do people build a better Bitcoin community within their own circles, within their own local communities? You know, like, those are the things, and that's why I love, like, I love going to meetups, and I love seeing people, and it's and it's because, like, that's where that is where exchanges happen. That's where people buying stuff should happen. Right? Okay. I mean, so I agree that, I mean, we we we all should be
1294
01:57:44.145 --> 01:57:45.365
1295
01:57:45.980 --> 01:57:48.720
those options. And I think, you know, if you look at
1296
01:57:49.500 --> 01:57:51.680
companies out there, and as an example,
1297
01:57:52.060 --> 01:57:53.360
you know, I I
1298
01:57:53.900 --> 01:57:56.864
so if one of my sponsors is Huddl Huddl. Right? So that's an example.
1299
01:57:57.804 --> 01:58:04.380
I'm also investing in other as an investor, I might invest in companies that are doing these kinds of things or helping people,
1300
01:58:04.920 --> 01:58:09.980
use or interact in no KYC or less KYC ways. So as an example,
1301
01:58:11.165 --> 01:58:14.784
you you know, as an investor, you might be as an example, like, Bitrefill
1302
01:58:15.085 --> 01:58:15.905
helps people
1303
01:58:16.364 --> 01:58:16.864
interact
1304
01:58:17.165 --> 01:58:35.305
without having to KYC everything. Right? You might be able to purchase things without KYC. So, you know, and I think, in in the context of community meetups and things like that, Right? As a as a meetup, I was a long time meetup organizer with Bitcoin Sydney, and when I'm in person, I'm teaching people, then I'm also talking
1305
01:58:35.800 --> 01:58:42.460
as part as one of the things I'm educating about is, hey. This is if you are interested in the non k y c option. So I think
1306
01:58:43.720 --> 01:58:45.020
for many of us
1307
01:58:49.685 --> 01:58:55.610
full prong. Right? I'm helping promote various projects that things more privately or use Bitcoin more privately. So
1308
01:58:57.350 --> 01:59:02.810
I I I think from my point of view, I'm just seeing it as there are multiple prongs that I'm trying to teach and push on
1309
01:59:03.175 --> 01:59:13.520
1310
01:59:13.980 --> 01:59:14.780
There is no
1311
01:59:16.059 --> 01:59:19.760
you you haven't heard an answer as to how you stop people from initially doing KYC
1312
01:59:20.344 --> 01:59:21.304
because there isn't one,
1313
01:59:21.945 --> 01:59:29.949
because that's, I that's quite obviously the road that has been laid out before us. That's that's the nudge and the push and the
1314
01:59:30.570 --> 01:59:44.385
elbow over until we've got a nice open road right here. It's very simple. All you gotta do is, you know, take this cute little picture standing next to this piece of paper and wait, you know, 2 or 3 days, and that'll approve you. And then you're allowed to buy Bitcoin.
1315
01:59:44.820 --> 01:59:52.280
You know, just wait for wait to get approved, and then you're, you know, you're in this permissionless system. It's no. Actually, it's not permissionless.
1316
01:59:53.405 --> 01:59:59.265
K y c already is cutting people off. It's not, you know, a matter of in the future, when are we gonna stop people from,
1317
01:59:59.725 --> 02:00:04.130
you know, is KYC gonna get more restrictive and stop people? It already is. You know? Like,
1318
02:00:04.670 --> 02:00:08.275
yes, there's a philosophical point about it being exclusionary and
1319
02:00:08.835 --> 02:00:15.655
Bitcoin being inclusionary, but there's also a very real point that KYC actually does exclude people right now today
1320
02:00:15.970 --> 02:00:21.430
from, you know, partaking in society the way that they normally would. But the
1321
02:00:21.970 --> 02:00:23.030
all that beside,
1322
02:00:23.885 --> 02:00:28.465
this thing we're talking about is is Bitcoin, and it's so different
1323
02:00:28.845 --> 02:00:33.050
than stocks or real estate or anything else like this. Everybody
1324
02:00:33.989 --> 02:00:42.895
recognized that this this asset, this is a paradigm shift. This is not, you know, the same as having a KYC house or it's it's this is different.
1325
02:00:43.355 --> 02:00:47.614
This is the one thing that we can own, truly own.
1326
02:00:48.000 --> 02:00:50.579
And I just don't if there's a way
1327
02:00:51.280 --> 02:01:01.375
that once people are in, whether they come in through KYC or whether they never touch KYC, they first got some at a meetup one place, it it doesn't matter.
1328
02:01:01.915 --> 02:01:08.060
It doesn't matter how they got to this point. It's the point that I am trying to make about our about audiences
1329
02:01:08.600 --> 02:01:15.155
is when we're talking to the people we're talking to at the time we're talking to them, I just don't understand. Like, there's
1330
02:01:15.715 --> 02:01:28.210
we may be talking to them about Bitcoin, how Bitcoin works, how to hold your own keys, how to do all your stuff, But I've seriously doubt that anyone is going over the KYC procedure with them. It's just like it's not even discussed.
1331
02:01:28.565 --> 02:01:39.330
You don't talk about how, you know, you're gonna have to go and do this KYC procedure, and here's the best way to do it. Like, that's not that's not even discussed. We're talking about Bitcoin, how you own Bitcoin, how you transact with Bitcoin.
1332
02:01:39.790 --> 02:01:42.930
The KYC doesn't matter, and that's how it should be.
1333
02:01:43.310 --> 02:01:45.490
So I don't feel like we have to, like,
1334
02:01:46.245 --> 02:01:53.520
sway them away from the KYC option. Like, when you're discussing it with people, there's there is no discussion of KYC. It's only
1335
02:01:53.980 --> 02:02:01.680
later when, you know, if we have pointed them at Coinbase or pointed them at Kraken that, you know, then it pops up and it says, why what is this?
1336
02:02:03.534 --> 02:02:05.395
So where if they come in through Coinbase
1337
02:02:05.775 --> 02:02:08.710
as I did, not understanding what Bitcoin is,
1338
02:02:09.750 --> 02:02:18.170
fine. It doesn't it it that's that's that's I don't see the big issue with that. Obviously, I would love if it all just disappeared today, but that's not reality.
1339
02:02:18.555 --> 02:02:32.880
The reality is most people today are going to come in through pay y c. So knowing that reality, the way I deal with that is not by wishing it goes away. It's by wishing that we have as many people as possible in the communities.
1340
02:02:33.900 --> 02:02:45.205
As soon as these people join those communities, this is one of the first things that they see. That's the best I can do to fight back against it. That's how I deal with with k y c being a reality of our existence.
1341
02:02:50.970 --> 02:02:51.710
1342
02:02:58.304 --> 02:02:58.804
1343
02:02:59.824 --> 02:03:01.045
I mean, this has been
1344
02:03:02.670 --> 02:03:05.170
a fucking fantastic conversation so far.
1345
02:03:06.670 --> 02:03:08.210
We're at the 2 hour point.
1346
02:03:10.165 --> 02:03:11.865
First of all, I appreciate you all.
1347
02:03:13.045 --> 02:03:13.285
Big
1348
02:03:14.085 --> 02:03:16.905
civil dispatch has been focused on actual discussion.
1349
02:03:17.400 --> 02:03:19.020
That is the the main,
1350
02:03:20.920 --> 02:03:21.420
reason
1351
02:03:21.960 --> 02:03:25.580
this show exists in the first place and why we come back every Bitcoin Tuesday.
1352
02:03:26.635 --> 02:03:27.534
I'd be curious
1353
02:03:28.074 --> 02:03:29.054
to go over,
1354
02:03:29.755 --> 02:03:30.494
the basics,
1355
02:03:31.114 --> 02:03:31.934
for someone
1356
02:03:32.395 --> 02:03:36.430
who has listened to this conversation for the last 2 hours and is interested
1357
02:03:37.290 --> 02:03:40.510
in not providing their intimate personal information
1358
02:03:40.970 --> 02:03:42.110
to acquire Bitcoin,
1359
02:03:43.145 --> 02:03:44.844
How might they go about that?
1360
02:03:45.145 --> 02:03:49.165
I I figured either Diverter or Zelco can jump in here and
1361
02:03:49.890 --> 02:03:53.910
and go through their their list of advice in that in that regard.
1362
02:03:54.450 --> 02:03:55.350
1363
02:03:56.290 --> 02:03:58.470
many different ways depending on on
1364
02:03:58.955 --> 02:03:59.695
your situation,
1365
02:04:00.554 --> 02:04:02.895
and and where you reside in the world.
1366
02:04:03.994 --> 02:04:06.415
It's certainly not as easy as,
1367
02:04:07.270 --> 02:04:20.065
finding a KYC exchange, but, you know, I would argue the KYC procedure is, you know, a pretty big inconvenience in itself. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's more inconvenient, but it's certainly easier to find exchanges,
1368
02:04:20.925 --> 02:04:22.545
to buy KYC Bitcoin.
1369
02:04:23.165 --> 02:04:24.525
The problem with,
1370
02:04:24.925 --> 02:04:25.790
a lot of these
1371
02:04:26.590 --> 02:04:28.930
peer to peer type exchanges many times,
1372
02:04:30.510 --> 02:04:31.010
is
1373
02:04:31.710 --> 02:04:33.810
we're purposely stepping outside,
1374
02:04:35.035 --> 02:04:35.935
government regulation.
1375
02:04:36.715 --> 02:04:37.615
That's that's
1376
02:04:38.075 --> 02:04:40.655
the reason that we're doing it. So the
1377
02:04:40.955 --> 02:04:44.095
the it's great, but the bad part about that is,
1378
02:04:44.860 --> 02:04:47.360
it still has to be regulated. It's gotta be regulated
1379
02:04:47.739 --> 02:04:48.239
somehow.
1380
02:04:48.540 --> 02:04:52.639
So we have to regulate that ourselves. So that's where these reputation
1381
02:04:53.285 --> 02:04:55.304
systems, you know, come into play,
1382
02:04:56.245 --> 02:05:04.070
and it's where things like escrow happen. And the reason I mentioned this is because when you go to a site, like, say, you wanted to purchase your 1st Bitcoin
1383
02:05:04.449 --> 02:05:05.989
and you pull up DISC.
1384
02:05:06.690 --> 02:05:07.190
Alright?
1385
02:05:07.650 --> 02:05:13.995
You're not gonna be able to purchase your 1st Bitcoin at DISC. Because on this, you're gonna need a little bit of Bitcoin
1386
02:05:14.375 --> 02:05:16.635
in order to put up for the security deposit
1387
02:05:17.015 --> 02:05:18.475
to then make your trade.
1388
02:05:18.890 --> 02:05:21.949
So this is already out as a first touch.
1389
02:05:23.130 --> 02:05:23.630
But,
1390
02:05:24.170 --> 02:05:33.130
you know, obviously, there's plenty of ways you seed yourself, friends, family, meetups, whatever you wanted to do. You know, I've actually seeded a couple of people on Twitter, believe this or not,
1391
02:05:33.850 --> 02:05:35.870
and I actually gave you my stats back.
1392
02:05:36.570 --> 02:05:37.070
But,
1393
02:05:38.010 --> 02:05:42.030
it's it's it Biscuit is not the easiest thing in the world. It's not the easiest thing to run.
1394
02:05:42.485 --> 02:05:44.505
You have, as Stefan mentioned,
1395
02:05:45.445 --> 02:05:51.385
one of his sponsors, HODO HODL, and I I really like HODL HODL. They are a little bit different in that
1396
02:05:51.960 --> 02:06:00.620
BISK is what you would actually call a true peer to peer exchange. Like, there is no 2 of 3 multisig. It's a 2 of 2. It's just you and your peer.
1397
02:06:01.705 --> 02:06:10.284
In this, they're gonna hold one of the keys in that transaction. So you can actually go through the process of buying Bitcoin, and you don't actually have to have
1398
02:06:12.219 --> 02:06:14.719
Bitcoin necessarily in order to do that there.
1399
02:06:15.180 --> 02:06:15.680
So
1400
02:06:16.700 --> 02:06:17.440
the real
1401
02:06:17.955 --> 02:06:18.455
problem,
1402
02:06:19.395 --> 02:06:23.975
initially, with coming into Bitcoin OKYC, if you're coming fresh with nothing,
1403
02:06:24.995 --> 02:06:38.625
is that you're probably going to need a little bit of Bitcoin to make it easier in order to get there. So that's a real problem. That's why, you know, like I've said, I I don't think that the the vast majority of people will come in through KYC.
1404
02:06:39.724 --> 02:06:44.840
But once you're ready to go to the no KYC route, you've got this, you've got HODL HODL,
1405
02:06:46.020 --> 02:06:46.740
you've got,
1406
02:06:47.380 --> 02:06:47.880
ATMs
1407
02:06:48.340 --> 02:06:49.780
depending on where you're at.
1408
02:06:50.260 --> 02:06:52.280
Some of these ATMs, you can
1409
02:06:52.695 --> 02:06:56.315
accomplish buying Bitcoin up to certain amounts without having to provide
1410
02:06:56.695 --> 02:06:57.515
any identification.
1411
02:06:58.775 --> 02:07:02.739
There's a couple articles. There's some great there's a great, article on bitcoiner.guide,
1412
02:07:03.840 --> 02:07:10.835
bitcoin q and a site that goes over, 10 steps, I believe it is to purchase your first no KYC sats.
1413
02:07:12.655 --> 02:07:17.840
So there's there's many different ways. You can go on a coin ATM radar, search an ATM. You can hit a meetup,
1414
02:07:18.140 --> 02:07:24.320
you know, many different ways. But the main ones are gonna be peer to peer online exchanges like this, huddlehuddle,
1415
02:07:24.780 --> 02:07:33.985
local coin swap. And that's why, you know, again, I'd I'd like to see more of these. I'd like to see them more robust and and become just easier to use. So first of all,
1416
02:07:34.844 --> 02:07:38.090
1417
02:07:39.590 --> 02:07:42.410
You don't you don't do this twice a week like I do.
1418
02:07:43.665 --> 02:07:48.485
First of all first of all, if you're a Bitcoiner listening to this and you're onboarding friends and family,
1419
02:07:49.185 --> 02:07:56.230
you know, don't don't send them a link to sign up to a KYC exchange exchange if they're interested in Bitcoin. Like, the first thing you should do is
1420
02:07:57.010 --> 02:07:58.950
have them pay for dinner with their fiat,
1421
02:07:59.410 --> 02:08:05.175
and pay them in Bitcoin. Have them self custody it. Have them actually appreciate Bitcoin for what it truly is.
1422
02:08:06.435 --> 02:08:11.980
On onboard them in a responsible way. If they're your friends or family, like, if there's someone you care about, do that.
1423
02:08:12.520 --> 02:08:14.220
The Bitcoin ATM point,
1424
02:08:14.680 --> 02:08:16.300
that Diverter mentioned there
1425
02:08:16.715 --> 02:08:18.175
is grossly understated.
1426
02:08:18.955 --> 02:08:24.495
At least in most of the United States, there are ATMs that only require a phone number to purchase Bitcoin.
1427
02:08:24.930 --> 02:08:27.190
Now they're gonna charge you a little bit more money.
1428
02:08:29.010 --> 02:08:34.150
You know, you're not giving up your privacy, so instead, you're gonna pay a slight premium on the Bitcoin.
1429
02:08:34.755 --> 02:08:39.175
They will require a phone number most of the time. You can use a service like silent.link,
1430
02:08:41.155 --> 02:08:47.170
to get a burner phone number with coin, or you can go and pay cash at one of those, you know,
1431
02:08:48.110 --> 02:08:48.610
little,
1432
02:08:49.230 --> 02:08:53.225
cell phone stores. Usually, you're you're better off if you're gonna buy a prepaid
1433
02:08:53.845 --> 02:09:00.310
SIM to buy it, at one of those small, like, cell phone specific stores rather than, like, a Best Buy or something like that.
1434
02:09:01.350 --> 02:09:06.330
We have mining. I had diverter on for civil dispatch 31 civil dispatch.com
1435
02:09:07.485 --> 02:09:07.985
/cd31,
1436
02:09:08.765 --> 02:09:11.665
or in your favorite podcast app, just go to episode 31.
1437
02:09:12.205 --> 02:09:14.225
We talk about getting started with home mining.
1438
02:09:14.845 --> 02:09:16.945
You can accept Bitcoin for goods and services.
1439
02:09:17.640 --> 02:09:18.680
You know, we have these
1440
02:09:19.240 --> 02:09:27.020
we have this this this concept, I don't know, that that Bitcorners can figure out cold storage, that normies can figure out cold storage,
1441
02:09:27.705 --> 02:09:30.045
they can figure out how to run a lightning node,
1442
02:09:30.825 --> 02:09:34.585
but they can't figure out how to accept Bitcoin for goods and services. Like, there
1443
02:09:35.200 --> 02:09:41.860
when I lived in New York, there were bodegas that were just basically cash only businesses. Why were they cash only businesses?
1444
02:09:43.585 --> 02:09:51.205
I mean, you could read between the lines there. They fucking figured it out, and they wanted they wanted better money that wasn't being tracked and wasn't being surveilled.
1445
02:09:52.489 --> 02:09:56.030
So there are a bunch of options available to people to acquire Bitcoin
1446
02:09:56.969 --> 02:09:57.469
without
1447
02:09:58.090 --> 02:10:03.525
providing intimate personal information that can be accessed by criminals that can be used against you in the future.
1448
02:10:04.465 --> 02:10:07.205
And I think it's prudent for every Bitcoiner
1449
02:10:07.824 --> 02:10:12.920
to basically, as they're going through this onboarding process, as they're helping friends and family,
1450
02:10:14.420 --> 02:10:16.120
escape this failed system,
1451
02:10:16.580 --> 02:10:20.665
that they do so in a in a responsible way. And and to just say that
1452
02:10:20.985 --> 02:10:23.645
that it's completely lost, that the fight is lost
1453
02:10:24.025 --> 02:10:26.765
is is a loser's ideology because, ultimately,
1454
02:10:27.385 --> 02:10:32.790
it's only gonna get worse from here. I mean, it's been said multiple times over this last 2 hours
1455
02:10:33.330 --> 02:10:34.710
that no KYC
1456
02:10:35.090 --> 02:10:37.830
was a fundamental part of Bitcoin culture
1457
02:10:38.275 --> 02:10:42.775
up until 2017, 2018. It fucking turned. It turned super fucking quick.
1458
02:10:43.555 --> 02:10:54.170
And Bitcoin Twitter, I think, was a large part of that. It was a large part of people being scared to talk about it, and and being scared of being persecuted and prosecuted and fucking
1459
02:10:54.725 --> 02:10:55.945
thrown under the bus,
1460
02:10:56.324 --> 02:10:59.385
which, to be quite honest, I'm scared about all the time.
1461
02:10:59.764 --> 02:11:02.585
But if we're gonna actually sit here and talk about
1462
02:11:03.600 --> 02:11:05.300
this being a worthy fight,
1463
02:11:05.600 --> 02:11:10.739
then let's actually make it a worthy fight, because it only gets worse from here, and the only thing
1464
02:11:11.065 --> 02:11:13.165
standing between it getting absolutely
1465
02:11:13.705 --> 02:11:14.685
worse from here
1466
02:11:15.145 --> 02:11:19.245
is us. Like, there's nobody else standing between that from happening.
1467
02:11:19.560 --> 02:11:23.020
Because if you don't think that there are gonna be more restrictions on regulated
1468
02:11:23.480 --> 02:11:23.980
services
1469
02:11:24.520 --> 02:11:25.260
going forward,
1470
02:11:25.960 --> 02:11:29.020
where the fuck have you been for the last 2 years?
1471
02:11:29.505 --> 02:11:30.645
Everyone just fucking
1472
02:11:30.945 --> 02:11:39.125
rolled over as small businesses got crushed, as privacy got crushed, as freedom of movement got crushed, as freedom of speech got crushed,
1473
02:11:39.610 --> 02:11:44.110
and nobody cares about Bitcoin. The overwhelming majority of people don't care about Bitcoin,
1474
02:11:44.570 --> 02:11:45.630
except for us.
1475
02:11:46.010 --> 02:11:48.830
It comes down to us, and it comes down to personal responsibility.
1476
02:11:49.675 --> 02:11:57.935
1477
02:11:58.940 --> 02:12:00.320
the majority of Bitcoiners,
1478
02:12:00.860 --> 02:12:04.000
right, willing to defend their their Bitcoin
1479
02:12:04.460 --> 02:12:14.605
when the state comes knocking on your door? Right? Like, that's really what it comes down to. Like, I am hard pressed to believe that many people are gonna have the state come knock on your door,
1480
02:12:15.710 --> 02:12:28.145
and you just say, oh, like, it was a it was a boating accident. Like, that that whole narrative was obviously a meme, but, like, people actually believed it, you know, and it and it comes down to like that,
1481
02:12:28.925 --> 02:12:35.969
what we say, and especially like those who have a lot of followers, like what you say and how you say it, like, those things matter. You know? Because,
1482
02:12:36.750 --> 02:12:43.170
you know, it's trying to write off your KYC as a, oh, it's boating accident or, oh, it it I lost it.
1483
02:12:43.585 --> 02:12:54.530
Like, I don't have it anymore. Like, if you think that that's that means that you're not accountable for it, like, we're wrong. You know? Like, KYC is forever. It doesn't matter what you what you do after that.
1484
02:12:54.909 --> 02:13:03.085
Like, it doesn't matter at all. 0%. It doesn't matter. Like, you you like, if you the state's coming for you, they're gonna come for you. And
1485
02:13:03.545 --> 02:13:05.085
if your stats are KYC'd,
1486
02:13:06.344 --> 02:13:10.800
you know, like, what are you gonna do? And you have to ask yourself that. I can't answer that for anybody.
1487
02:13:11.260 --> 02:13:13.120
I can only answer that for myself.
1488
02:13:13.900 --> 02:13:14.400
But
1489
02:13:14.940 --> 02:13:22.305
what what are you willing to do? And if you're a a Bitcoiner and you believe in the ethos, you believe in what Bitcoin is about, you believe in,
1490
02:13:23.485 --> 02:13:25.745
you know, what this movement is for,
1491
02:13:26.445 --> 02:13:26.945
then
1492
02:13:27.790 --> 02:13:37.435
you need to be ready to fight. And if you're not ready to fight, then it might not be time for you, and that's okay. You know? Like but if I'm on Twitter and you're fighting me saying that, you know,
1493
02:13:37.975 --> 02:13:40.395
KYC is the is the path to
1494
02:13:40.775 --> 02:13:41.435
to enlightenment,
1495
02:13:42.295 --> 02:13:55.395
like, you're wrong. Like, I'm not like, I and I don't think either I don't think anybody on here has came up and said, KYC is the way. That's not been the argument that anybody had, so don't take that personally. But,
1496
02:13:55.855 --> 02:14:01.074
like, I I see it. I see it online, and it is mind blowing. It's disheartening,
1497
02:14:01.989 --> 02:14:03.050
you know, because,
1498
02:14:03.750 --> 02:14:06.650
you know, maybe this is just strong from, like, the privacy,
1499
02:14:07.270 --> 02:14:09.449
you know, sector of Bitcoin, but, like,
1500
02:14:09.755 --> 02:14:16.815
when you're, like, seeing this stuff and you're we're so focused on, like, trying to make Bitcoin what it what it was,
1501
02:14:17.355 --> 02:14:18.735
trying to maintain that
1502
02:14:19.320 --> 02:14:21.740
ideology of what Bitcoin was all about,
1503
02:14:23.000 --> 02:14:32.815
and then people are online just saying, like, oh, like, just hold just hold until the state dies, and, you know, just say it was a boating accident if they come for you. Like, that is insane.
1504
02:14:33.195 --> 02:14:40.050
And that's why I asked that question earlier. Right? Like, how much regulation on the KYC and how many people need to be shut down
1505
02:14:40.350 --> 02:14:47.815
or not not allowed to buy, you know, like, the how many people try to ask permission to buy Bitcoin on a KYC exchange and get denied until
1506
02:14:48.275 --> 02:14:54.534
until everyone stops and says, oh, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't be pushing KYC anymore. Maybe we should
1507
02:14:55.050 --> 02:14:56.350
be changing our mindset.
1508
02:14:56.890 --> 02:15:01.870
So, you know, like, that that's synonymous, you know, peer to peer transactions.
1509
02:15:02.925 --> 02:15:03.985
Like, that's gone.
1510
02:15:04.445 --> 02:15:10.705
At the end of the day, if we were to to play this all the way out, if KYC is the end, if every set is KYC,
1511
02:15:11.940 --> 02:15:14.760
where where what do we have? Is it Bitcoin?
1512
02:15:16.739 --> 02:15:26.514
1513
02:15:26.815 --> 02:15:32.579
interested in defeating the state. What they wanna do is survive the state, if that makes sense.
1514
02:15:33.119 --> 02:15:33.520
And,
1515
02:15:34.239 --> 02:15:37.139
you know, at the same time, I think there's a growing
1516
02:15:37.955 --> 02:15:38.455
remnant,
1517
02:15:39.155 --> 02:15:48.330
who really want to create the Bitcoin era, and I think we should contribute to that. And and and but, you know, it's it is a progression, and we just have to play it
1518
02:15:48.949 --> 02:15:51.369
to the end that we wanna see.
1519
02:15:54.025 --> 02:15:56.685
1520
02:15:57.225 --> 02:16:01.030
a a really productive conversation. I appreciate you all for joining us.
1521
02:16:01.590 --> 02:16:03.770
I hope the freaks enjoyed it.
1522
02:16:04.789 --> 02:16:05.929
I know I did.
1523
02:16:06.789 --> 02:16:14.375
I I think, you know, we're hit we're hitting the 2 hour and 15 minute mark. I'm starting to feel for Stefan a little bit because I know his time zone.
1524
02:16:15.075 --> 02:16:19.415
I think we should wrap this baby up. I'm gonna proceed with final thoughts.
1525
02:16:20.290 --> 02:16:22.310
Final thoughts. Stefan, we'll start with you.
1526
02:16:23.250 --> 02:16:39.640
1527
02:16:40.420 --> 02:16:55.050
growing that base and energizing and doing anything you can to educate and promote and help that remnant base of people, the ones who are gonna fight it and the ones who are gonna try to do something about this, whether that's in the non KYC world or in the KYC world. So
1528
02:16:55.590 --> 02:17:03.369
I see this as trying to build out the tools that's ideally the open source software and hardware, the technology, as well as businesses
1529
02:17:03.725 --> 02:17:04.864
that are helping people,
1530
02:17:06.125 --> 02:17:11.744
you know, enable them in some way in terms of Bitcoin education or stacking SATs or
1531
02:17:12.150 --> 02:17:15.690
whatever it is, whether that's, you know, earning and using your own,
1532
02:17:16.150 --> 02:17:18.891
node to stack your SATS by selling your services.
1533
02:17:19.635 --> 02:17:22.695
I think those are things that we can focus on.
1534
02:17:23.315 --> 02:17:26.215
So, yeah, so I think those are probably the key
1535
02:17:27.020 --> 02:17:31.520
messages I would leave for people out there. And, of course, if people wanna find me, that's stephanlovera.com,
1536
02:17:32.141 --> 02:17:33.761
and you can find me on Twitter at stephanlovera.
1537
02:17:35.096 --> 02:17:35.915
1538
02:17:36.855 --> 02:17:38.235
Diverter, final thoughts?
1539
02:17:42.400 --> 02:17:42.900
1540
02:17:43.760 --> 02:17:47.061
Sure. I thought I was sure you were gonna save the best for last.
1541
02:17:48.240 --> 02:17:50.420
Caught me off guard there. Yeah. Absolutely.
1542
02:17:52.515 --> 02:17:59.015
No. But seriously, it's been a it's been a good conversation. I appreciate you all coming on here. Stefan, laser, hold on.
1543
02:18:00.260 --> 02:18:04.120
It's it's it's not easy to come on and have these conversations and especially
1544
02:18:05.060 --> 02:18:08.020
when you have the potential to be on the side that, you know,
1545
02:18:08.655 --> 02:18:12.755
doesn't look so great. So I appreciate you guys coming on here and and articulating
1546
02:18:13.056 --> 02:18:13.715
your positions.
1547
02:18:14.016 --> 02:18:14.915
Stefan, obviously,
1548
02:18:15.855 --> 02:18:19.471
you do great work. Appreciate you having me on the podcast and all the stuff that you do.
1549
02:18:20.011 --> 02:18:21.530
Hope you keep it up. Laser,
1550
02:18:22.330 --> 02:18:28.725
I appreciate your takes as well, man. I hope I could pull you on over the no KYC side and and get you all the way over here.
1551
02:18:29.745 --> 02:18:36.300
But I appreciate the conversation. I just hope everybody takes into account all of the factors whenever they,
1552
02:18:37.000 --> 02:18:41.899
really start getting into Bitcoin and and understanding what it is that they're in here for,
1553
02:18:42.360 --> 02:18:42.860
and
1554
02:18:44.375 --> 02:18:46.635
what that means down the road potentially.
1555
02:18:47.095 --> 02:19:00.840
If this is a speculative asset for you and you don't necessarily care about anything else that that's you're perfectly you know, it's a permissionless network for a reason. Everybody can have their piece of this from corporations on down to anybody.
1556
02:19:02.015 --> 02:19:06.675
But anybody that I talk to that I that I have the ability to speak to about Bitcoin,
1557
02:19:07.615 --> 02:19:09.795
it's gonna be a a a paramount.
1558
02:19:10.690 --> 02:19:17.030
One of the most important things that I discussed with them is that it's important to be able to be fully permissionless
1559
02:19:17.970 --> 02:19:19.430
and not have to,
1560
02:19:20.284 --> 02:19:22.864
register anything that you do with the state
1561
02:19:23.805 --> 02:19:24.944
just so that
1562
02:19:25.404 --> 02:19:27.744
what you own, you truly own
1563
02:19:28.270 --> 02:19:40.115
1564
02:19:40.735 --> 02:19:42.035
a couple months back.
1565
02:19:44.016 --> 02:19:49.510
And I Yep. We'll do that again soon. Fuck yes. I was gonna say I look forward to, doing it again soon.
1566
02:19:50.689 --> 02:19:51.909
Laser, final thoughts.
1567
02:19:55.455 --> 02:19:56.096
1568
02:19:56.495 --> 02:19:59.715
Well, it was great. And it's not hard being on the,
1569
02:20:00.415 --> 02:20:10.185
the descending side. I think, you know, everyone here wants to see default forward privacy. Everyone here wants to see folks building a no KYC stash. Everyone here wants to see,
1570
02:20:10.585 --> 02:20:12.444
KYC and just government,
1571
02:20:13.704 --> 02:20:17.805
you know, white knuckled grip on on financial surveillance,
1572
02:20:18.520 --> 02:20:27.820
be deteriorated so that the individual and families are free. We're talking about how to do that. My view is just that I don't think it's I don't think the state disappears overnight.
1573
02:20:28.235 --> 02:20:28.815
I think,
1574
02:20:29.275 --> 02:20:33.695
you know, we should have a remnant because that's important to game theory and we should grow that.
1575
02:20:34.795 --> 02:20:36.335
And we should have this irreversible,
1576
02:20:36.875 --> 02:20:37.375
unstoppable
1577
02:20:37.700 --> 02:20:41.880
escape hatch, and we should grow that as people move down the, Bitcoin progression.
1578
02:20:42.260 --> 02:20:44.680
But at the same time, like, a lot of the big boy,
1579
02:20:45.535 --> 02:20:46.355
stuff happens,
1580
02:20:47.375 --> 02:20:57.020
in the game theory of mass adoption. And that's why, you know, that's why I think through politics even though I don't love politics. I think through it because I think it's important.
1581
02:20:57.560 --> 02:20:58.700
The the legitimization
1582
02:20:59.240 --> 02:21:01.186
of Bitcoin, I think, is a underappreciated,
1583
02:21:03.425 --> 02:21:03.925
geopolitical,
1584
02:21:05.105 --> 02:21:08.485
strategy for what we're after. So, you know, I
1585
02:21:08.900 --> 02:21:14.040
I I sit in this interesting place where I'm creating a remnant, but I'm speaking to conservative families.
1586
02:21:15.141 --> 02:21:18.155
You know. So I do appreciate the privacy NIMs.
1587
02:21:19.274 --> 02:21:20.015
So thanks.
1588
02:21:21.274 --> 02:21:23.695
1589
02:21:25.290 --> 02:21:30.830
1590
02:21:31.290 --> 02:21:34.346
just kinda talking about it. And, again, I I think it's pretty apparent
1591
02:21:34.726 --> 02:21:35.226
that,
1592
02:21:36.886 --> 02:21:41.465
it's acknowledged that no KYC Bitcoin is greater than, KYC Bitcoin,
1593
02:21:41.766 --> 02:21:42.266
but,
1594
02:21:43.640 --> 02:21:46.300
you know, and and, yeah, everyone does care about forward,
1595
02:21:46.680 --> 02:21:47.500
forward privacy,
1596
02:21:47.960 --> 02:21:51.020
which, of course, you only get with, Sam or Walts, Whirlpool.
1597
02:21:53.274 --> 02:21:56.335
But, you know, that said, I think it was really great discussion,
1598
02:21:56.715 --> 02:21:57.034
and,
1599
02:21:57.675 --> 02:21:58.494
you know, hopefully,
1600
02:22:00.400 --> 02:22:06.180
my goal is really just that people are, like, conscious and, and cognizant of, like, how they're
1601
02:22:06.695 --> 02:22:13.515
how they're onboarding people. You know? Don't sell their souls for the devil nuts, and that's not, like, just for anybody on here, and that's that's not
1602
02:22:14.180 --> 02:22:20.600
an attack on anybody in particular. But, like, just understand that, like, when it comes down to it, push comes to shove,
1603
02:22:21.380 --> 02:22:24.495
you know, the the state's gonna come for come for their money.
1604
02:22:25.435 --> 02:22:25.935
So,
1605
02:22:26.475 --> 02:22:28.734
you know, let's opt out the right way.
1606
02:22:29.114 --> 02:22:32.095
So, yeah, I, I had a great talk, and
1607
02:22:32.510 --> 02:22:35.330
I definitely hope to meet up with all you guys again,
1608
02:22:36.029 --> 02:22:37.729
what, at Miami, probably. And,
1609
02:22:38.910 --> 02:22:42.125
and, yeah, it was a it was a good time. Oh, by the way,
1610
02:22:43.385 --> 02:22:43.545
our,
1611
02:22:44.265 --> 02:22:46.425
our run dojo tantos, we're gonna be
1612
02:22:47.710 --> 02:22:51.410
we just sold out of our 1st batch to the US, but the EU and UK
1613
02:22:51.950 --> 02:22:56.450
will be, will be coming soon. So, stay tuned for announcements for that to get released.
1614
02:22:57.305 --> 02:23:02.125
Super excited, and we got some other fun stuff about to pull out. So I had to give a little shout out to my team for that.
1615
02:23:02.665 --> 02:23:05.005
1616
02:23:05.520 --> 02:23:06.020
a.
1617
02:23:08.000 --> 02:23:09.300
Thank thank you, Zelco.
1618
02:23:09.680 --> 02:23:16.505
Zelco is is one of the main guys behind the Ronin Dojo project, and they just released this Tanto node,
1619
02:23:18.005 --> 02:23:22.105
which is it's like a pure block of steel. This thing is fucking awesome.
1620
02:23:23.739 --> 02:23:25.920
Definitely go check that out. What is that? RoninDojo.
1621
02:23:26.300 --> 02:23:26.800
Io?
1622
02:23:29.100 --> 02:23:33.375
1623
02:23:33.854 --> 02:23:36.354
yeah, you can check it all out at, shop.runendojo.io
1624
02:23:38.300 --> 02:23:40.080
or, yeah, our main site's atrundojo.io.
1625
02:23:41.020 --> 02:23:41.520
But,
1626
02:23:42.220 --> 02:23:52.710
1627
02:23:54.150 --> 02:23:56.390
that was that was truly a pleasure, and,
1628
02:23:57.430 --> 02:24:00.970
it it was an honor. And I look forward to, kicking with you in Miami
1629
02:24:01.575 --> 02:24:04.314
and Absolutely. Hopefully many years to come.
1630
02:24:04.935 --> 02:24:05.755
So, guys,
1631
02:24:06.854 --> 02:24:10.635
to all the guests, thank you so much for participating in in dispatch.
1632
02:24:11.641 --> 02:24:17.260
I know it's a very unique experience. Huge shout out to the rider to die freaks who joined us in the live chat.
1633
02:24:19.186 --> 02:24:22.485
Reminder to everyone listening to this on the podcast feeds
1634
02:24:22.945 --> 02:24:26.165
that this will be the last show on the TFTC
1635
02:24:26.830 --> 02:24:36.585
podcast feed. So if you want to continue listening on podcast feeds, you're gonna have to open up your podcast app and search Silly Dispatch and subscribe to the dispatch specific feed.
1636
02:24:38.245 --> 02:24:39.465
Also, another reminder
1637
02:24:39.766 --> 02:24:40.266
that,
1638
02:24:40.885 --> 02:24:43.385
the chat has now moved to matrix,
1639
02:24:44.250 --> 02:24:44.989
open source.
1640
02:24:46.170 --> 02:24:46.829
Good news.
1641
02:24:48.729 --> 02:24:50.109
You can find that at citadel.chat,
1642
02:24:50.865 --> 02:24:57.525
and that conversation continues throughout the whole week, not just on Bitcoin Tuesdays. It's a very lively discussion. We have almost
1643
02:24:58.120 --> 02:25:02.300
500 ride or die freaks in there right now, so definitely come check it out.
1644
02:25:02.920 --> 02:25:08.135
And with all that said, I love you all. Appreciate you guys. Thanks for coming. Cheers.
1645
02:25:27.915 --> 02:25:32.655
Run, boy, run. This world is not bad for you. Run, boy, run.
1646
02:25:33.035 --> 02:25:33.270
They're
1647
02:26:00.635 --> 02:26:02.975
by running. Break out from society.
1648
02:28:48.940 --> 02:28:49.921
Love you, freaks.
1649
02:28:50.700 --> 02:28:52.320
We have a wrap up all recap
1650
02:28:52.806 --> 02:28:53.466
on Thursday,
1651
02:28:54.165 --> 02:28:56.745
and, we have another Bitcoin Tuesday,
1652
02:28:57.205 --> 02:28:58.025
next Tuesday,
1653
02:28:58.806 --> 02:29:04.450
with 2 Venezuelan Bitcoiners. This should be a really great conversation. I'm looking forward to it. Just remember,
1654
02:29:05.870 --> 02:29:11.410
no one no one else is gonna do shit for you. At the end of the day, it all comes down to personal responsibility,
1655
02:29:12.385 --> 02:29:17.685
and you're gonna have to figure it out yourself. You're gonna have to understand the trade offs. You're gonna have to make your own decisions,
1656
02:29:18.785 --> 02:29:20.165
and it's not gonna be easy.
1657
02:29:20.870 --> 02:29:22.170
There will probably be darkness.
1658
02:29:23.510 --> 02:29:25.930
But if we do it right, we can make that darkness
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as minimal as possible and get through it together. I love you all. Stay humble. Stacksides.
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