CD131: NO PRIVACY? NO FREEDOM. NO FREEDOM? NO WEALTH. WITH JEFFG

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Created: 5/7/2024 11:06:21 PM
Duration: 7707.051
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Key and top issue for our small business owners. According to our latest CNBC SurveyMonkey Small Business Confidence Index, only 1 in 4 now say that inflation has peaked. That's down from nearly a third last quarter. Meanwhile, 3 quarters say they still expect inflation to continue to rise. That's also up from 69%

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last quarter. More than 1 in 3 said their, that inflation rather is their biggest threat to business right now. That is 3 times as many who say consumer demand, labor shortages, supply chain, or interest rates are their top threats to business.

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Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another CIL dispatch,

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the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

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That intro was completely unrelated to the show as always,

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but will make a great time stamp

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in the future.

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People are waking up to the fact

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that their money fucking sucks

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and that inflation

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will probably spread.

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It's pretty crazy watching normies kind of come to that conclusion.

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And

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we live in a unfortunate or fortunate position

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where we kinda kinda observe that from afar and see it unfold.

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But I have a great guest here,

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today,

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mister Jeff Jeff g,

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Nostra contributor, and recently has been focused

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on

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making our DMs better.

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How's it going, Jeff?

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He's going great. Thanks for having me on. It's kind of long time listener, first time caller sort of situation, so it's great.

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Let's fucking go.

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So, Jeff,

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I don't know where we should start.

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I kinda like starting with

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why Noster.

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Like, why do you why do you even care about Noster? Like, time is scarce. Time is probably the only thing more scarce than Bitcoin.

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Why are you so focused on Noster?

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Yeah. So I found Noster,

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you know, kind of shortly after the kind of Jack announcement, giving away a bunch of Bitcoin to fiat JAF.

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And I remember seeing it and kind of

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going, okay. That looks really interesting. Like, look into that a bit later.

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At the time, though, I was actually in the middle of shutting down, kinda more traditional web 2 startup that I had started, you know, a couple years prior

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and, you know, just for having run out of money. And so I was like, okay. We come back to this, but, certainly not right right now.

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So about a month later,

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kinda mid January last year, I started looking into it. And,

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I, you know, I spent the first couple of days kinda just digging through everything, tried to build a real simple little client, you know, got everything set up. And and then, like, I had this little, you know, like, splinter in my mind sort of situation where it was like,

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there's something here that, like, doesn't

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like, sort of making my Spidey sense tingle. And, like, the more I dug into it, the more I was like, no. I must be missing like, this is this is huge. Like, this is gonna be absolutely the entire Internet all over again. And then I was like, no. I must be missing something. Like, that's insane.

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And so I started looking around for people I could, like, you know, call and go, you know, hey. You're another developer. Like, what do you think of this thing?

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And one of the very first people I found was Pablo.

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And so I jumped on the phone with Pablo, and it was supposed to be, like,

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a 20 minute call or something. And an hour and 45 minutes later, you know, having both, like, yelled yelled ourselves hoarse at each other in excitement. We were both, like, okay. So you're seeing the same thing? Okay. We're not crazy? Okay. Well, at least we're the same crazy if nothing else. So at that point, it was like, this is definitely gonna be a huge thing, and no one can see it yet. And so I just happened to be in that transition period where I was starting to go, what am I gonna do next? And it was just like, this is definitely what I'm gonna do next.

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So I just jumped straight in and started building stuff full time.

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Badass. I mean, Pablo is a fucking legend.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. It's funny. We've got, like, a ton of weird,

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coincidence things. You know, he spent a bunch of time in Blacksburg, Virginia, where I went to university, and we both climb. And so there was, like, all these little things where it was, like, wait, what? How? Okay. But you're from Argentina, and I'm from Virginia. And this is so strange.

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Well, that's awesome.

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Yeah. Freaks, I I mean, I see in the live chat that there was a little bit technical difficulties.

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So the title

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that you might see on YouTube,

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is incorrect. We're with Jeff. We are not with Ben Arck of last week,

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but I do appreciate the people

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who joined us last week.

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The Ben Arck episode was good as well. So Did you listen to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't listened to it, definitely go listen to it. It was my first public socialism argument that I've ever had,

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but besides that, I enjoyed it thoroughly. I feel I feel like that is probably the right person to have that first public argument with. It had to be done. Right? It had to be done.

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It had to be done. I appreciate Ben. He's he's a great person,

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and a great contributor.

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So so, Jeff, a lot of your focus has been on

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the actual name of this episode is no privacy, no freedom. I would go further, and I would say no privacy, no freedom, no freedom, no wealth.

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I think people that are focused on

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on just being as wealthy as possible,

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don't realize the connection between,

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first of all, freedom and then the connection

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down the line of privacy in terms of freedom.

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So a lot of your focus on Nostr has been on the privacy side, and I really wanna talk about,

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your new DM spec,

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for Nostr. So right now, the way Nostr DMs work, they are encrypted,

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but they're encrypted with

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your single public key that is known to the world.

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So anyone who has that public key, which is everyone,

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can just, like, sign into a NotSure client, see exactly who you messaged,

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and how often you messaged them. And then the secondary

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issue is if that private key

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ever gets exposed of either participant,

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then the entire message history,

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is also exposed, which is just bad. That's not Really bad. Yeah.

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To the point where

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I noticed you do the same exact thing I do. Whereas as soon as you receive a DM on Noster,

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you just send a signal link. It's like, message me on signal,

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which is a 100% what I do as well. So how are we how are we solving that? And by we, I mean, you. Like, what is the plan here?

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Yeah. We're looking at. I guess before I jump into that, like, I'll jump I'll go back just a little bit to your, like, earlier statement. You know, like, without privacy, you can't have freedom. Without freedom, you know, you can't have wealth.

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That actually was something that stuck with me really early.

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You know, I got my hands on a copy of, like, Rich Dad Poor Dev when I was a kid. And, like, the only takeaway I took away from that was, like, actually, wealth is being able to do whatever you want whenever you wanna do it. And, like, nothing else matters.

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And so I think, like, that that sort of has always been in my head, and and I think it's a huge part of why I'm really into Bitcoin and and then really into Nasr and and, like, why I'm not out trying to start another Web 2 startup and, you know, do things like that. Right? Like, I'd much rather spend my time building this sort of stuff.

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With DMs,

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so, yeah, it's it's kind of always been a known issue. Right? Like, even from the very beginning, it was just like, yes. This is a,

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very naive,

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simple way to encrypt content.

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You know, when fiatjaf wrote the original spec,

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it was never meant to be perfect. It was never

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advertised as being perfect by any stretch.

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You know, and, like, people wrote some, like, funny little bots and things that would just report on, like, who's DM ing who because, like you said, you could see all the metadata about, you know, what those conversations were.

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The NIPO 4 spec as well, which is the original DM spec,

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like, the encryption it uses is, like, a pretty simple, you know, asymmetric key cryptography. Like, it doesn't try to hide how long the message is. It doesn't really do anything fancy

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around, you know, trying to make that encryption super strong. It's literally just like, okay. Just, you know, do one pass on it and then, you know, stick it in the content, and it's good.

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So, you know, knowing that we always had this problem,

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a lot of people have, I mean, 1, talked about this,

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and 2, there was a a group kind of, last autumn that took on, you know, just trying to improve the encryption,

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algorithm that we were using. So

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they built out NIP 44, which is a much stronger,

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like, encryption for the actual message content. But that actually doesn't talk about at all, you know, okay. How do you use that encryption scheme with something else to make DMs more private and actually hide the metadata and make sure that, you know, content can't be seen, like you said, if someone gets a hold of,

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your private key or your, you know, the other person in the conversation's private key.

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So that was kind of a big step forward in the sense that, okay, we've got this much better way to encrypt things. But then again, you know, there weren't really any, strong contenders for how to do, you know, properly private DMs.

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There was one that actually was,

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merged just, like, a couple of weeks ago. Maybe it was last week, in fact, like, NIP

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17, which Vitor from Amethyst put out there. And that actually uses the the newer, stronger encryption

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and uses gift wraps, which, you know, is basically just a way to put an event inside of another event inside of another event so that it hides all that metadata.

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The problem there still is if you lose one of the keys,

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everybody can read, you know, going forward and going backwards, in time, all the messages between 2 people. And people don't realize how bad that is.

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Yeah. I mean It's like like if an individual participant is compromised at any time in the future

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Right. The malicious actor has everything.

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Everything. And if the malicious actor gets that private key without anybody realizing, they can just quietly read everything going forward into the future forever as well. And backwards into the past, however long. Right. Right. You have no idea if that has actually happened to anybody's keys. You know what I mean? Like, there's there's no way to know that for sure. So,

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I think we take it like, we kinda take for granted at this point that we've got, like, most messaging is end to end encrypted.

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And the way that that was mostly handled is because we've had these centralized trusting that, like, yes,

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they're using the, you know, right encryption. And for the most part, they're all using signals encryption algorithm.

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You know, the guys that built the signal, protocol

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ended up, you know, basically selling or licensing that to Facebook and Google and and, like, all the other services started using a variant of that same protocol.

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So that was basically what I you know, I kept hearing, okay, we need to fix DMs. And I kept going, okay, somebody smarter than me is gonna figure this out. Like, this is not you know, this is above my pay grade. Like, I'm not a cryptographer. I'm a, you know, mostly a web developer, client developer. And so I was just like, somebody will solve this. This is, like, soon we'll have a a fix. And it kept not happening. It kept not happening. And I kept listening to the, you know, Bitcoin review podcast and kept listening to NVK, you know, moaning about it and, like, saying we need, you know, double I was just on that.

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Yeah. Well, he probably didn't hopefully mention it this week.

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You did?

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Oh, did he? Okay. Yeah. Well, it's still not list it's still not out there merged yet, so, I suppose you can still moan about it.

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But, yeah, it was, like, one of those things. Like, I was listening to the podcast on a run, you know, whatever 2 weeks ago and was just like, for god's sakes, like, somebody needs to sort this out already.

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And so I got home from the run and was like, I'm gonna look into this. You know, like, how hard is signal? Like, everybody just keeps saying you need a centralized server in order for it to work. Like, there's no way to do it on Nostr, but no one's given me, like, an actual real, you know, run through that makes sense.

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So I just started looking at the signal docs and started peeling it apart and going, okay. How does this work? How does this piece work? You know, where is the actual central server

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really required here? And, like, can we adapt it a bit to make it work on Nostra? And turns out it's actually completely possible and actually not even that hard.

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Syncing devices gets a lot more complicated, but, you know, for a DM spec that actually

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does properly encrypt between 2 parties,

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you know, the double ratchet DM is is absolutely possible. And so that's what the spec that I wrote, you know, a couple of weeks ago was about.

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So you actually decided to be the change you wanted to see in the world? Exactly.

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Someone had to do it finally to get NVK to stop talking about it. So, it turned out it was gonna be me.

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It would have been in fairness, actually, like, it it it, you know, it was one of those things that's, like, pretty above my pay grade. Like, some of the cryptography stuff in there took me a little while to get my head around.

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I had definitely a couple of great conversations with folks like Pablo and and Max Hillebrand about, you know, how the pieces fit together and stuff. And,

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once you kinda crack it in your head and you understand how the thing moves like a machine, then all of a sudden it makes sense. But, if you try to just look at it on the surface, it's, it is quite complicated.

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So, I mean, let's talk about this.

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A big issue you mentioned.

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So so the goal the end goal

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is

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DMs

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that

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no one no one can easily see the meta metadata for. Right? So so they can't easily see how often I'm messaging, who I'm messaging.

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Yep.

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And then also that if my key gets compromised,

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they can see past conversations. Correct?

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Or future conversations.

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So there's, there were kinda 3 main things that I, like, had in mind, and it was basically those three things. It's like, one, all the metadata has to be hidden.

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That was pretty well figured out with gift wraps already, so that part wasn't so difficult. You just had to sort of be aware of where you were, you know, putting data and and make sure that you weren't accidentally leaving something out in the open.

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The forward secrecy

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is very badly named, but, like, forward secrecy is being able to read stuff into the past. So if you, you know, leak a key, if somebody can read all your past messages, that's forward secret compromise.

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Post compromise secrecy is when somebody gets your key, and then they can read messages into the future. Okay. And so That's confusing. What I wanted was basically both of those things to be solved as well as the metadata to be hidden.

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Forward secrecy is actually for the past.

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Yes. Yeah. It's terrible name. It like, the convention is I don't know why it's like that. But yeah.

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Okay.

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So it's supposed to accomplish all of these things.

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Yes. And the way it does it is by basically using one of Nastro's superpowers to me, which is, like, we've got an almost infinite number space

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for public private key pairs. And so it doesn't matter that we can just, like, we could basically use as many key pairs as we want and just throw them away as we please, and we're never gonna run out of key pairs. And so

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the way we do this for,

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you know, this protocol is, you know, with some really fun, clever cryptography called a Diffie Hellman key exchange, which basically

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is a a cool way to say, if we know each other's public keys, we can come up with a shared secret without having to do anything else,

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you know, without having to have a a third number involved or anything.

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So you use kind of a combination of Diffie Hellman

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plus a bunch of ephemeral keys, and you create a machine that has basically 3 separate,

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kind of,

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chains of keys.

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And those 3 sets of keys,

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you know, are that forms the double ratchet. You know, one set of keys is sort of run off of 1 ratchet, or 2 of the chains is 1 run off of 1 ratchet, and the one main chain is on another ratchet that's totally separate. And those ratchets, you know, one is for forward secrecy, and one is for post compromise secrecy.

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Okay.

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So you, like, actually

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were able to try and accomplish this problem because you had so much previous work that you were able to build on top of.

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Yes. There is there is like I will be very quick to, like, point out I did nothing

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new here that is, like, of any supreme difficulty. I just went, okay. How does the signal protocol work?

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How does Nostra work? How do these things how can these things work together in a way that, you know, accomplishes these goals?

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And I think, like, most of the people that had, you know, gone around saying, like, you can't use a signal protocol because it needs a centralized server, had never really looked into it.

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And, you know, it turns out, yes, you've got to tweak a few things, and it gets a little more complicated for sure. But it's it's no, like, new cryptography or anything super difficult there. I mean, it helps that, like, now we have Noster, so you have, like, a

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open permissionless

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interoperable

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comms protocol

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to actually handle the key exchange and stuff like that. Right? Exactly. And, actually, the identity system is one of the main things that signal, you know, their centralized server is there for, is to serve as the sort of source of truth for who's who's who. Right? And so that's another thing that just noster on its own as a network gives us. And so,

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you know, you're like, okay. Don't need a centralized server for that. You know, we know each other's public keys.

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And so from that starting point, you're already set up, ready, you know, to do this Diffie Hellman exchange.

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Great. So, I mean, to me, there's, like, 2 main

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friction points here. I mean, obviously, the first one is

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actual client adoption because

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am I correct in assuming that

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relays don't have to do anything different?

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So it just comes down to clients actually

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adding the new standard.

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Correct? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So relays, this is all just totally standard events. I mean, you wanna use all 3 relays,

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and you wanna make sure that you're using the relays that a user tells you to use, you know, as they're, like, inbox relays. But, I mean, relays don't have to change anything themselves.

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And then the second thing

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is so, I mean, that's not on you. I mean, hopefully, we see client adoption.

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Yeah. And, like, one of the things that I I instead of just writing the spec, I actually spent probably twice the amount of time, you know, on building a little demo app that would try to show people, you know, each step along the way, like, what's happening here,

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so that, you know, there was a bit of code that could show people, okay. This is, like, how this thing gets implemented in in the hopes that, you know, we can get client developers to implement it faster.

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Awesome.

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But one yeah. One of the cool parts about Nasr is that we have many clients.

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They're all run by different people.

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And,

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as a result,

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they will merge things as they see fit, when they see fit, and,

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these types of upgrades will take a little bit of time, I expect. I think right now, like, things happen a little bit quicker

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because there's, like, a dozen

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people.

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It's, like, not that many people. It's more than a dozen. I mean, open sense is a dozen. But yeah. 21 clients. But it's, like, 45 people.

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And

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as a result, it goes a lot quicker. But over time, like, people should assume with Noster,

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that these things will take time to roll out across many different clients.

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And then the second big thing that I

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and, also, like I mean, you say this above your pay grade. Like, I feel like this is way above my pay grade.

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I just want privacy. I I want privacy in communications. I want financial privacy.

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I think

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humans flourish under that environment.

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One of the things

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that seems like a very basic concern with this implementation is

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So, like, if I'm having

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a

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and I think you kinda mentioned this. If I'm having, like, a private chat with you on Domus

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and then I moved to Nostrudal,

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like, what happens with my ephemeral keys? Like, can I actually continue that conversation? Or is that a whole new session or something?

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This is the tricky part. Yeah. This is actually what so I got that spec out last week. You know, I was kind of I kept trying to kind of make the point to people that, like, hey, this is, you know, step 1 of several.

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You know, we we've got a little ways to go before we're gonna be ready to, like, properly implement something that feels like a modern amazing user experience. You know, like it feels when you use signal on your computer and then you pick up your phone and it's all synced up and ready to go. Right.

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The syncing between devices and between clients,

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so the best way to think about this is,

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the combination of a device and a client is a session. Right?

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Right. So, you know, Damas on your phone, no Strudel on your computer, Primal on your phone,

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those are 3 different sessions. Okay.

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And so

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those that's sort of the atomic unit that you have to keep synced here.

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The way that the keys work is that,

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you're not, remember, you're not actually using your Nostra private keys to encrypt anything here.

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The only thing you use those for at the very beginning is this initial Diffie Hellman key exchange

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that gets you a shared secret key. And that shared secret key is sort of the, you know, first input to the ratchet machine.

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You know, you stuff the token in the very top, you turn the ratchet, and then you turn the other ratchet once. Actually, you turn the other ratchet twice, and then you're ready to go.

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Every time you

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introduce a new device client, you know, a new session,

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you need to set that whole thing up again.

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Now that only takes a fraction of a second to set up, you know, as a computer,

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but it does mean that each of those device client combos

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needs to keep track of its own set of keys. And that's where all of the kind of security in this comes from is that you use the keys, you decrypt the messages, you throw the keys away.

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You know, they're sort of zeroed out like you don't want them anymore.

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And in kind of a weird quirk, there's actually potentially a reason that you would want to

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publicly publish those private keys,

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those message keys later on.

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Because once you've decrypted the message, you wanna re encrypt it on the device in a different way.

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Now I don't think we're there because it like, obviously, stuff is gets kept around on relays for a long time in a lot of cases. So we're not there yet, but,

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there is some, like, weird stuff you can do that feels really,

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wrong, but actually increases privacy and deniability over the long term.

250
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But there's a bunch of preconditions. So, anyways, yes. The syncing part is the hardest part by far. And so what's gonna have to happen is that,

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basically, your conversation will get broadcast

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to multiple sessions,

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and each of those sessions will have their own sort of inbox.

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And each of those sessions will handle decrypting that conversation and managing the content of that conversation separately.

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And so,

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you know, there is

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duplication there. There's chance for stuff to get kinda lost or messages to arrive out of order.

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This protocol handles all that stuff just fine. Like, it will handle out of order messages. It'll handle missing messages just fine. But it it that sort of thing does make it very complicated for developers to put together.

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It's a lot of moving parts.

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Well, I mean, I think if we think about it from,

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like, a user perspective,

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like, most users probably will not be using

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separate sessions. And they might be

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so

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am I correct that if

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I'm using, like, Primal on desktop and Primal on phone, there's there's a 2 different sessions? Yes.

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That could that's probably gonna happen all the fucking time.

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Yes. Yeah. There there's gonna be some weirdness here. And, like, it's sort of like when you use session on desktop phone. Right? Like, you don't Right. Get your your past conversation history when you sync up to desktop, you know, the first time. You're just like, okay.

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I've got a brand new thread here, and it just kinda starts in the middle. And then 2 days later, you've kinda forgotten that that was ever a problem because they're in sync and you've got history on both sides. But,

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but, yeah, like, you don't get the like, you don't get to sync up past conversation history,

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in a model like this because we don't have a centralized server.

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But you'd still would future be

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future would be the same?

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Yeah. As you go forward, basically.

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So the way this would work is, say, you've got Primal on desktop, Primal on your phone, and I'm using Domus, and I send you a message in the conversation on Domus. Domus knows,

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based on, you know, some mechanism, which is what I'm still working on, but knows based on some mechanism

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that you have these 2 sessions running, and it needs to send an encrypted version

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to both of those sessions. Okay.

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And so it just it basically just takes the exact same message, encrypts it, you know, using the keys that it knows, you know, belong to each of those sessions, and then sends, you know, 2 events instead of 1.

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And your inbox relays pick those up and and know which one is for which.

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Right.

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Okay.

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And the reason I use Primal as the example is just because I I'm aware that they have a desktop and

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and a mobile,

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app.

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It it it is not

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specifically

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focused on primal.

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It was just the easiest example I could think of.

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I see

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Manimi.

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M anime

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is actually probably how you're supposed to pronounce it. Sometimes one client has trouble syncing when another doesn't. This is why people may switch sessions.

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I do think, like, right

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now right now, we're in the glory days of Nasr.

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Like, people,

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will look back,

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and, like, maybe it'll be like a sitcom about, like, the early days of Nastur and, like, everyone will be wearing, like, vibrant clothing and whatnot,

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like we see with the eighties sitcoms now. But I think in the future,

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and and one of the beauties of Noster and will continue to be one of the beauties of Noster, one of the key fundamentals

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is that you can switch clients. Like, I think

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that is a core foundational element. You know, people should shun any kind of

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app

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or client,

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client, but I call it an app,

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that that doesn't give you access to your end, so you can't easily switch.

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But I do think that we are rare and we will continue to be more and more rare. This idea of the user,

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the active user who is

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is using 6 different clients. Right? Like, I'm

310
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I I use all these different clients. Like, we're we're not we're not gonna be when when we onboard a a 1000000000 people to Noster,

311
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the overwhelming majority of them aren't gonna be using a shit ton of different clients. No. So I don't know if this is necessarily a problem that needs to be solved.

312
00:27:13.715 --> 00:27:26.040
But it is a pain point in in this kind of spec. Right? Right. Right. And and look, I and I think I totally agree with you. Like, we are the definition of early adopters here. Like, we're the ones that want to tinker with as many possible things as possible.

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We wanna be switching constantly between clients.

314
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We're actually not even that bothered when, like, something goes totally wrong

315
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and it nukes our relay list. Like, it's just like, oh, well, that was annoying, but whatever. The follow list is a big one for me. Yeah. Follow this is a bit more.

316
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So many times.

317
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, I guess, like yeah. I think it's it's probably fair to say that, you know, the people that come later will not be switching clients quite so much, but, also, they're gonna have they're just gonna expect stuff to work, and they're not gonna understand why there's, like, a weird limitation

318
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or stuff goes a bit slower or, you know, stuff doesn't sync. Whereas, I think we generally, early adopters have this more this mindset of, like, you know, like, you're expecting things to be a little bit rough around the edges.

319
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So I think the syncing thing needs to work,

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at least to the degree that, you know, is easily explainable to folks. So, like, when you sync up to, you know, another client and there's no chat history, it's easy to explain to somebody that, like, hey. The reason is because it's so secure. Like, they're you know, like, we're really not sharing data between these two devices. We just care about privacy.

321
00:28:29.195 --> 00:28:31.295
So Exactly. You can't see the shit.

322
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Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think the other thing is, like I mean, we're getting a little bit away from it in some senses, but, like, I I want Nostra to be an array of things. Right? Like, I don't want to have every single client have to implement DMs.

323
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You know, I don't think that's a really unnecessary thing.

324
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And I think it's totally fine that, like, I really only use signal for messaging with people, and, like, it doesn't have to be my social client as well. Right. And so I I don't think it's weird that we would say, okay. The the client that does DMs in the most incredible way possible and handles all the syncing and all the edge cases

325
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is gonna win in that realm. And then the the social clients might, like, do a little bit of that, but, like, they won't handle they won't handle multi device or something like that. We might have, like, a DM client. Like, that is the client that, like, 95%

326
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of users use for DMs.

327
00:29:21.415 --> 00:29:27.420
Right. But they don't actually use it for their, like, Twitter competitor or their Instagram competitor or whatever.

328
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Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think that would probably be the much better outcome because it also means that,

329
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you know, the the people who are focused on building that app are solving that problem completely.

330
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Like, what we don't want is a bunch of apps that do, like, half of the job for for users. Like, we want the job, like, properly solved.

331
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And especially in a case like this where, you know, this sort of client, you know, with this sort of security requirement or at least proposed security requirement, like, should be capable of, you know, being the messenger in really hostile situations where you've got maybe activists and, you know, authoritarian regimes where this is how they're organizing. And if they get caught, like, they're they they could actually

332
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die. Yeah. And their whole families get thrown in jail and shit like that. Right. Right. Right. Right. So, like Bad shit.

333
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Yeah. You would want the people building that client to be, like, completely deep into that, you know, problem space.

334
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So I'm kinda curious.

335
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.740
Okay. I think this DM spec is fucking awesome, and we need it.

336
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I don't know how long we need to actually talk about it on the show.

337
00:30:32.705 --> 00:30:41.000
I think we've done it. We've definitely got, like I guess the main thing is that, it's still a little ways out. Like, there's you know, people are starting to tinker with implementations.

338
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You know, anybody that's wanting to do some implementation, like, please reach out to me. I'm more than happy to walk through all the, you know, nitty gritty details.

339
00:30:50.315 --> 00:30:52.725
You know, I'm gonna definitely build a bunch of,

340
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kind of the low level stuff into NDK so that it's much easier for client devs to do this without, you know, screwing it up.

341
00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:09.495
But, like, more than happy to talk to folks about it. And, you know, yeah, there's a couple of, like, small pieces that we need to keep working on and and get, you know, kinda pushed further along before it's really ready.

342
00:31:10.830 --> 00:31:12.610
Awesome. Well, thank you for your service.

343
00:31:13.070 --> 00:31:21.555
I would like to see this implemented in as many clients as possible, because right now, I literally just use DMs to respond back, message me on signal

344
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Right.

345
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Which clearly you do as well.

346
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And I think it's important. Like, it is

347
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which is why the original NIP for DMs exists in the first place. It was like, you can't compete with Twitter if you don't have DMs.

348
00:31:36.365 --> 00:31:37.345
Like, there's actually,

349
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like, one of the things I lost when I deleted Twitter was, like, I had this global address book of people I could message.

350
00:31:45.870 --> 00:31:50.610
Yeah. And hopefully, Noster eventually replaces that, but it hasn't yet.

351
00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:53.970
Right. And I just straight up sacrificed it by

352
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burning it and just saying fuck all. And Yeah. We can do this thing.

353
00:32:01.375 --> 00:32:04.675
I I I think there is a strong argument about just burning the bridges

354
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and just forcing yourself to improve,

355
00:32:08.659 --> 00:32:12.519
which is why I personally did it, and everyone can make their own decision.

356
00:32:12.995 --> 00:32:17.475
Yeah. Like, I'm kind of with that. You know, I definitely sympathize with it. There was, like, a a thing that,

357
00:32:18.195 --> 00:32:35.755
the 37 signals guys said years ago where they, like, don't track feature requests for their products. They just, you know, answer the questions. And the questions that just keep coming back are the ones that then become top of mind, and they know without having to track anything or look up anything that, like, okay. This is what, generally, our customers are really asking us for.

358
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There you go.

359
00:32:38.610 --> 00:32:40.870
Okay. So I would like to see this DM spec,

360
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moved along. I think

361
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Nostra DMs are

362
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a major pain point right now.

363
00:32:49.105 --> 00:32:53.285
And it's not even really a pain point to adoption. It's just a pain point of users

364
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that are actively using the protocol, whatever

365
00:32:56.580 --> 00:33:03.160
20,000 of us, 30,000 of us that are using it. Right. Because the new users actually don't realize that they're shitty.

366
00:33:03.755 --> 00:33:10.975
Right. The new users This is a more dangerous myth. Yeah. I mean, it sucks for them. Like, it's really fucked up. And especially if they're,

367
00:33:12.620 --> 00:33:16.480
like, just uploading image links, and they don't even realize the images

368
00:33:16.860 --> 00:33:21.200
are public. That's a whole different ballgame. I mean, your spec doesn't even solve that.

369
00:33:21.534 --> 00:33:22.034
No.

370
00:33:23.135 --> 00:33:28.115
No. No. Your images are somewhere on some server somewhere, and they're not private.

371
00:33:28.639 --> 00:33:31.299
Yeah. Depending on the client. Yeah. That that's totally true.

372
00:33:32.080 --> 00:33:38.684
Yeah. For sure. I mean, one thing I would actually suggest for client developers is, like, NIP 17 was recently merged.

373
00:33:39.144 --> 00:33:41.885
It is a huge step up in privacy,

374
00:33:42.345 --> 00:33:43.565
over NIP 0 4.

375
00:33:43.945 --> 00:33:46.125
It uses the NIP 44 encryption.

376
00:33:46.505 --> 00:33:47.690
It uses gift wraps.

377
00:33:48.490 --> 00:33:51.230
It's really quite trivial to implement,

378
00:33:52.169 --> 00:33:57.149
you know, for client developers. And so, like, I would pretty highly suggest that, like, most that solve?

379
00:33:57.915 --> 00:33:59.695
It solves the metadata leakage,

380
00:34:00.315 --> 00:34:05.695
and gives you, like, stronger encryption of the actual content. So it you know, instead of using,

381
00:34:06.155 --> 00:34:13.620
your private key to encrypt things, it uses a conversation key, which is sort of a variant. You create, like, a new private key that you both share. Right?

382
00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:18.835
Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. And so, you know, again, if that leaks, like, the conversation is,

383
00:34:19.235 --> 00:34:32.859
fully visible to anybody that wants to decrypt it. But at least all of that data is hidden behind this wall of metadata. So it's it's actually hard for people to tell, like, who's talking to who. So who should I go and try to attack for this, you know, conversation key?

384
00:34:35.785 --> 00:34:46.570
So, like, it's definitely not ideal, but it's way better than what we've got. And I think, like, if you went to the point where, you know, okay, if you're gonna wait for, you know, all of the double ratchet stuff to be ready,

385
00:34:47.349 --> 00:34:49.369
oh, you can't hear your no.

386
00:34:50.045 --> 00:34:53.665
I can hear you. Sorry. Harry is Harry is in the studio.

387
00:34:54.445 --> 00:35:10.685
Harry Sudhak. I'm just crashing with my Harry Sudhak is What's up, Harry? What's up, brother? And he was asking me questions, so I was just answering. I just thought we could use a rotating key. Yeah. He's he's asking the questions that you're you're solving. Like, the same way that the same way that signal has time locked

388
00:35:11.065 --> 00:35:18.365
erasure Yeah. That's could all you could also just encrypt This is literally on the same schedule. This is literally what we're having conversation about. I should get that.

389
00:35:18.950 --> 00:35:25.130
Yeah. Yeah. You should. I mean, you should definitely be there. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's alright. Your comments on the, spec.

390
00:35:25.589 --> 00:35:29.244
He says he he's waiting for your comments on the spec, Harry. I'm just pulling requests.

391
00:35:31.065 --> 00:35:36.285
Sorry. This is Bitcoin Park. So we just have, like Exactly. Great Bitcoiners just walk in,

392
00:35:36.825 --> 00:35:38.030
tell me what they want.

393
00:35:38.430 --> 00:35:41.970
Exactly. They just stroll and, like, give you the, give you the answers.

394
00:35:42.270 --> 00:35:46.850
We try and make it happen. So NIP 17, they should implement NIP 17 ASAP.

395
00:35:47.405 --> 00:35:48.865
And then after that,

396
00:35:49.244 --> 00:35:50.625
let's do that.

397
00:35:50.925 --> 00:35:59.839
It's, like, pretty trivial to to, like, conditionally handle different types of DMs as they come in. Right? Like, you can see when a when a message is just encrypted with,

398
00:36:00.380 --> 00:36:02.319
you know, standard NIPO 4 encryption

399
00:36:02.755 --> 00:36:16.160
versus it's okay. This is like a NIP 17 d m. We need to do 2 extra steps before we can actually show this message. And so, you know, like, a thread between 2 parties could literally be going back and forth between, you know, NIP o four conversation, you know, encryption

400
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:17.520
and NIP 17,

401
00:36:18.140 --> 00:36:22.904
depending on what's coming in. But, you know, the clients do have to handle it. So, like, there is a bit of work there.

402
00:36:24.484 --> 00:36:24.984
Right.

403
00:36:25.845 --> 00:36:26.345
Okay.

404
00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:33.460
Awesome. Yeah. We definitely need better DMs.

405
00:36:33.839 --> 00:36:42.465
Like, people who have It's coming. We're improving. We're iterating. It's happening over time. Takes time. It takes time. What what else are you working on in Nostra?

406
00:36:43.565 --> 00:36:44.785
Yeah. So I spend,

407
00:36:45.165 --> 00:36:46.305
a bunch of my time,

408
00:36:47.010 --> 00:36:51.430
like, playing effectively, like, experimenting with weird other stuff clients.

409
00:36:52.050 --> 00:36:55.030
I think the one that, most people know of is Lister.

410
00:36:55.424 --> 00:37:02.005
That was the first thing I started building on Nostr once I, you know, I built, like, Nostr dot how, which was, like, just a basic educational site,

411
00:37:02.560 --> 00:37:09.900
you know, very first because, basically, signing up and, like, figuring out the keys and everything and, like, trying to download brand name. That's a great domain.

412
00:37:10.625 --> 00:37:14.085
Yeah. It is a good domain. Actually, it wasn't my domain. It was even $5,000,000.

413
00:37:15.185 --> 00:37:16.085
Yeah. Nostril.com?

414
00:37:16.865 --> 00:37:17.685
No. Nostril.how?

415
00:37:18.230 --> 00:37:20.090
I mean, maybe maybe, like, 2,000,000?

416
00:37:20.630 --> 00:37:29.285
Maybe 2. I mean, 1 1.2 maybe. Like Oh, yeah. We should be able to get some more. Point 2. There you go. Yeah. Okay. So sorry. I interrupted you. Yeah. You built nostr.how,

417
00:37:30.065 --> 00:37:30.565
lister,

418
00:37:30.865 --> 00:37:31.365
continue.

419
00:37:32.545 --> 00:37:37.520
The next kind of client that I played around with was, ostrich dot work, which was,

420
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:38.420
effectively

421
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.100
it was like the implementation

422
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:47.485
necessary for a spec for classified ads that I wanted. Okay. So NIP 99 is classified ads just in general.

423
00:37:48.105 --> 00:38:00.275
And if you, you know, squint, like, one type of classified ad is a job job posting. Right. So I built a real simple client for people to post jobs. I'm actually in the middle of kind of, tearing that apart and rebuilding it completely.

424
00:38:01.214 --> 00:38:15.765
You know, I've it's like the one client that I, you know, built in a week have put very little kinda maintenance into, and people still like, every time I'm at a conference, people come up and they're like, when are we gonna have, like, some better way to do recruiting and find work and, like, you know, hire freelancers and

425
00:38:17.125 --> 00:38:24.280
yeah. It's a problem looking for an answer, and I'm like, I'm the problem stuck in the middle going, I've I'm doing too many other things as well. Like, I don't have time.

426
00:38:24.680 --> 00:38:28.380
But it's it keeps coming back, and so I think I'm gonna have to work on it more. So

427
00:38:29.240 --> 00:38:35.915
Yeah. I mean, that's something that people really want solved. I mean, I don't think you can ever fully solve it, but monster.com

428
00:38:36.375 --> 00:38:43.340
definitely did not solve it. Yeah. Indeed didn't either. LinkedIn hasn't done a great job. Like, it's Fuck LinkedIn, man. Yeah. Exactly.

429
00:38:43.640 --> 00:38:45.020
Hey, Jeff. Do you have a LinkedIn?

430
00:38:46.120 --> 00:38:51.420
I do still have a LinkedIn. I'm barely looking. I know, man. I know. I know. Do you have any self respect?

431
00:38:51.994 --> 00:38:52.494
Yeah.

432
00:38:53.195 --> 00:38:55.375
I've decided Barely on low on dignity.

433
00:38:55.755 --> 00:39:01.215
Instead of shaming people for Twitter, I've just decided that I'm gonna go for the low hanging fruit.

434
00:39:01.630 --> 00:39:07.090
Yeah. Why? You don't need anything. Know. You know what? You're gonna not delete my LinkedIn after this. You don't need a LinkedIn.

435
00:39:07.550 --> 00:39:11.295
Yeah. I'm gonna delete my LinkedIn after this. It is really important. Use it. It literally sits

436
00:39:11.775 --> 00:39:20.780
there. You can't even, like, privacy lock it down. Like, it's designed to just leak as much information as possible about you. Yes. Yes, it is. It's pretty bad.

437
00:39:21.400 --> 00:39:22.700
I'm going to I'm

438
00:39:23.080 --> 00:39:28.994
going to delete it. I'm going to get rid of it. You have a Twitter account. Has worked. I do still have a Twitter account, but I don't have a TikTok account?

439
00:39:29.775 --> 00:39:33.394
No. Oh, god. No. Jesus. Why? Why I'm too old for that?

440
00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:39.640
I'm like, if you have a Twitter account, you should have a TikTok account. Because TikTok, you get a bigger audience.

441
00:39:40.660 --> 00:39:45.145
Yeah. And, also, the Chinese government's buying on you. Yeah. So what? I mean,

442
00:39:45.525 --> 00:39:52.965
instead of the US government. Right? It's like you Yeah. I don't know. At this point, actually, which is worse. Maybe it's actually the US. So, I mean, that's a hard call. But

443
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:54.740
Yeah. I mean,

444
00:39:55.680 --> 00:39:58.820
it sucks. I love this country. I think America's amazing.

445
00:39:59.600 --> 00:40:02.260
The American government can ruin my life. The CCP,

446
00:40:03.455 --> 00:40:19.049
you know, it's it's a little bit disconnected. Like, I don't know. I do not have a TikTok account. I'm not trying to justify a TikTok account. But I'm saying if you have a Twitter account, you should probably have a TikTok. If if the argument is, like, to reach more people keep it around, then You would reach more people that way.

447
00:40:19.975 --> 00:40:20.475
But,

448
00:40:20.855 --> 00:40:30.530
yeah, let's just get rid of the LinkedIn account, and we can move on from this conversation. Yeah. But that means that means I'm gonna have to build LinkedIn Noster, and I'm not sure I'm really ready to do that. We'll make sure you get a job.

449
00:40:30.910 --> 00:40:32.530
You don't have to worry about that.

450
00:40:33.710 --> 00:40:43.315
Okay. Or I gotta build the tools so that I can find a job. You're part of the you're part of the family now. We'll we'll get you a job. You don't you don't need you don't need to be subservient to your LinkedIn account.

451
00:40:43.615 --> 00:40:50.470
Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. But But fuck It is funny, though, actually. LinkedIn is one of those weird ones because I never really used it at all.

452
00:40:50.870 --> 00:40:59.385
But People use it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, millions and millions and millions of people use it on a daily basis. And, like, every time I go on there, I see people that

453
00:40:59.845 --> 00:41:10.535
you know, I would be like, oh, yeah. This person would not be at all into this, and they're, like, posting these long, you know, threads and, like, giant blog posts and stuff on LinkedIn. And it's just like, what? Okay.

454
00:41:10.835 --> 00:41:11.335
Bizarre.

455
00:41:11.715 --> 00:41:12.615
It's a community.

456
00:41:13.315 --> 00:41:13.555
I,

457
00:41:14.515 --> 00:41:15.015
Yeah.

458
00:41:15.395 --> 00:41:16.615
I was at a bar,

459
00:41:19.240 --> 00:41:20.460
like, 4 weeks ago

460
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:26.665
with my baby because that's that's what we do now. We That's how you roll. You bring your baby to a bar. Yeah. You bring the

461
00:41:28.185 --> 00:41:29.325
baby. And

462
00:41:30.105 --> 00:41:33.005
it was local. It was in Nashville. We were in the bar,

463
00:41:34.289 --> 00:41:37.509
and I started talking to these 2 guys about Bitcoin.

464
00:41:38.369 --> 00:41:41.750
And my wife is ride or die Bitcoiner.

465
00:41:42.444 --> 00:41:43.825
Super ride or die Bitcoiner.

466
00:41:45.484 --> 00:41:49.345
She, like, eyes them up and down, just immediately rolls her eyes, walks away.

467
00:41:50.590 --> 00:41:55.330
And I talked to them for, like, 30 minutes, 35, 40 minutes, like, trying to

468
00:41:57.390 --> 00:42:06.385
explain to them, like, why Bitcoin is what matters. They were, like, more crypto people. Like, they were, like, more focused on, like, all the shit coins and stuff. Yeah. And then at the end, they said,

469
00:42:06.970 --> 00:42:10.750
like, so my wife is at at this point, is, like, at the far end of the bar

470
00:42:11.210 --> 00:42:44.640
giving me, like, dirty looks. She's got her baby. Taking the baby away from me, making sure the baby doesn't listen to it. She has possession of the baby. And and I'm like, I gotta go. I like, the the time has ended. Our our our time together has ended. And they say to me, they're like, oh, well, like, we would love to continue this conversation. I was like, oh, do you have signal? I was like, I'm ready to give them my signal contact. Yeah. Which they should be grateful for that they have direct access to me. And they're like, oh, no. We don't have signal. Do you have LinkedIn? And I was like, holy shit. She was right.

471
00:42:45.420 --> 00:42:51.565
And, like, and I feel like a lot of people, like, that is their main method of it's insane. It's crazy.

472
00:42:52.025 --> 00:42:53.065
It is kinda nuts.

473
00:42:53.705 --> 00:42:59.290
It is kinda nuts, but, I mean, it is what it is. So Yeah. I guess. But, anyway, delete your LinkedIn.

474
00:43:00.230 --> 00:43:01.130
Yeah. I will.

475
00:43:01.990 --> 00:43:13.690
Okay. So you're building a keep it around. You're building a lot of stuff on master. I'm building a lot of stuff. I mean, the other thing that I I try and and make sure I keep an you know, a reasonable amount of time for is, working on NDK.

476
00:43:13.990 --> 00:43:17.530
You know, Pablo does the vast majority, but I feel like I'm the janitor,

477
00:43:17.830 --> 00:43:26.795
on NDK where I kinda go behind them and clean stuff up and Oh, that's cool. Try and document things and, you know, add stuff, you know, where it makes sense. So what is NDK? Let's talk about NDK.

478
00:43:27.335 --> 00:43:29.415
Yeah. So NDK is Nostra Development Kit.

479
00:43:29.975 --> 00:43:31.000
You know, it was,

480
00:43:32.040 --> 00:43:35.100
like, you know, literally sitting on the plane on the way to,

481
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:37.580
Nostra Rica last year with Pablo.

482
00:43:38.120 --> 00:43:44.234
He's like, yeah. I think I'm gonna I think I'm just gonna start building a library to, like, you know, help people build stuff on Nostrand. I was like, yeah. Definitely.

483
00:43:45.015 --> 00:43:58.825
You know, JavaScript sucks. It's easy to mess it up. There's a lot of, like, low level stuff about handling, you know, relay subscriptions and, like, how do you get events and how do you manage user profile data and, you know, that most developers don't wanna deal with. Right.

484
00:43:59.385 --> 00:44:01.245
And so it started from shit.

485
00:44:01.545 --> 00:44:08.369
Yeah. Exactly. It literally just started from him being like, okay. I've done all this 3 or 4 times for these clients that I've built. Let me just, like, pull chunks out.

486
00:44:08.990 --> 00:44:14.505
And I had started doing the same and kind of chucking bits of my apps into the in the NDK, and then we added some Svelte,

487
00:44:14.825 --> 00:44:20.204
component library stuff so that, you know, you could just, like, drop in a single component, and it would load up an avatar.

488
00:44:21.310 --> 00:44:21.870
So it's,

489
00:44:23.230 --> 00:44:31.025
awesome. I'm like seeing people saying, NDK is is great. It's making their life easier. That's good. That's basically the gist is that, like, it should be,

490
00:44:31.965 --> 00:44:36.785
you know, it's one of many libraries out there that help developers just work at a higher level and work faster.

491
00:44:38.619 --> 00:44:39.119
Awesome.

492
00:44:40.500 --> 00:44:41.000
I

493
00:44:42.380 --> 00:44:44.220
mean, I I think NDK is like

494
00:44:45.945 --> 00:44:52.445
I mean, I think Pablo is completely underrated, but I think I think NDK is incredibly underrated.

495
00:44:53.910 --> 00:44:54.970
And part of the reason

496
00:44:55.350 --> 00:44:56.890
most people don't realize, like,

497
00:44:57.590 --> 00:44:58.570
part of the reason

498
00:44:58.870 --> 00:44:59.770
that OpenSats'

499
00:45:00.070 --> 00:45:01.290
nostril fund exists

500
00:45:02.375 --> 00:45:06.315
is because NDK needed funding. Like, the whole idea that,

501
00:45:07.575 --> 00:45:12.869
this idea of a Nostra development kit. Like, let's let's enable nostril developers

502
00:45:14.770 --> 00:45:19.030
to build what they wanna build with as little friction as possible.

503
00:45:19.945 --> 00:45:24.605
And how do we do that in the most most responsible way? And the original idea was

504
00:45:25.225 --> 00:45:28.605
that there was gonna be, like, an NDK foundation or whatever.

505
00:45:29.010 --> 00:45:39.464
Right. Right. Remember this. Yeah. And I I, like, I came into understanding that this thing was happening, and I was like, we are killing ourselves trying to build open sats.

506
00:45:40.085 --> 00:45:47.520
Like, all this stuff that we've already killed similar to MDK in that regard. Like, we've already done all the kill yourself part.

507
00:45:48.140 --> 00:45:48.640
Yeah.

508
00:45:49.180 --> 00:45:52.275
Why don't why don't we just have a nostril fund at open sats?

509
00:45:52.914 --> 00:45:58.934
Right. And I think that there's not enough appreciation on it. Like, NDK is, like, a 1,000 flowers bloom kind of shit.

510
00:45:59.770 --> 00:46:09.070
Yeah. And and it's, like, definitely by no stretch, it's the only library out there. Like, there's a lot of other libraries out there. You know, like, I have talked at length with Kieran about his, like,

511
00:46:09.455 --> 00:46:09.955
you

512
00:46:10.255 --> 00:46:14.515
know, he's, like, built an entire stack of his own that's, like, sort of similar but different.

513
00:46:14.975 --> 00:46:18.960
I think it's great to have multiple libraries out there that, you know, developers can use to build.

514
00:46:19.520 --> 00:46:20.740
Again, though, like,

515
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.260
having amazing tools is why, you know,

516
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:34.075
like, a protocol can actually flourish. You know, developers come to spaces where it's super easy to build, and they can see the output of their effort very, very quickly.

517
00:46:35.230 --> 00:46:55.850
And so, you know, I I keep threatening this. I've been doing it for months. I should stop saying it out loud, but I kind of do it so that I feel bad about it, and then I will one day go and make more videos. But I made a couple of videos last year, you know, just kinda basics, you know, within DK. I need to go back and, like, go through the whole thing and show people again, like, you know, here's how you do the basics, but also, like, here's all the other shit that it can do now,

518
00:46:56.390 --> 00:46:58.090
because it's a lot. Like, it covers,

519
00:46:58.390 --> 00:47:06.045
you know, like, caching things. It handles relays. It handles a ton of the, you know, much more complicated, you know, remote signing stuff.

520
00:47:06.744 --> 00:47:09.325
It's it's really good. Like, it's a really, really helpful library.

521
00:47:10.859 --> 00:47:11.440
Fuck. Yeah.

522
00:47:13.420 --> 00:47:17.759
So, I mean, you've mentioned Pablo multiple times. Were you part of the Sovereign Engineering crew?

523
00:47:18.744 --> 00:47:25.005
No. So I've got a bunch of kids. Yeah. I was Besides besides LinkedIn, you brought great shame to your family.

524
00:47:25.310 --> 00:47:32.510
So much shame. Yeah. But it's actually really hard to get, like, you know, school age kids away in the middle of the school year for 2 full months. So

525
00:47:33.305 --> 00:47:45.559
That's fair. And a wife that has a job. So it was, like, one of those things where I went back and forth to Pablo for ages and was just like, dude, I just can't make this work. So I went out to Madeira at the end of sovereign engineering, and I was always with him for the last week,

526
00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:50.440
which is probably the best week to be there because, like, they were all pumped and all built for the stuff.

527
00:47:50.895 --> 00:47:52.515
Yeah. Of course I would. Yeah.

528
00:47:53.695 --> 00:48:05.250
Yeah. So what do you think about that? Because I didn't even make it for the last week. So I've I've brought greater shame to my Greater shame. Yeah. Deep, deep shame. You should fall on your sword. Yeah. I I do it every week, basically. Yeah.

529
00:48:06.830 --> 00:48:07.570
It was

530
00:48:07.935 --> 00:48:08.755
really impressive.

531
00:48:09.455 --> 00:48:19.440
It it was like so I kind of landed on a Friday. I came straight into demo day. You know, I knew about half the developers in the room, but, you know, the other half, I'd never met before.

532
00:48:20.140 --> 00:48:21.839
The demos were incredible.

533
00:48:22.700 --> 00:48:23.599
Just the level

534
00:48:23.980 --> 00:48:25.359
that, you know, they

535
00:48:25.775 --> 00:48:32.835
had kind of pushed understanding around just, like, what was possible, what was a good idea, what wasn't a good idea,

536
00:48:33.910 --> 00:48:36.010
with sort of what you could do on Noster,

537
00:48:36.630 --> 00:48:39.450
was really impressive. And, like, you know, in every

538
00:48:40.225 --> 00:48:44.005
group, there's, like, a few ideas that come out of the group that's sort of the standout ideas.

539
00:48:45.425 --> 00:48:49.605
And and I think those things are gonna go on to become really, really impressive,

540
00:48:50.260 --> 00:49:05.275
projects. But, yeah, it was cool. Like, I mean, the concept like, the whole concept of we're gonna go on walks. We're gonna spend a bunch of time together just, like, hashing stuff out, arguing over things. We're gonna build stuff too, but, like, that's almost the secondary concern. Because, like, when we go away to our separate, you know,

541
00:49:06.295 --> 00:49:08.474
little offices and corners and whatever,

542
00:49:08.980 --> 00:49:15.559
then we can actually build the right stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's probably the first accelerator program in human history that has lost money

543
00:49:17.275 --> 00:49:18.655
So far. Which is impressive.

544
00:49:18.955 --> 00:49:33.950
Yeah. So far. Yeah. I I Well, no, but they didn't take any cut on anything. So yeah. No. They've definitely just lost money. That's it. Yeah. They've just incredibly lost money. And usually, I mean, usually they provide money to to the participants. Like the participants also lost money. Like they also had to pay for travel.

545
00:49:34.484 --> 00:49:35.625
But it was probably

546
00:49:36.325 --> 00:49:38.025
as someone who hasn't been there,

547
00:49:39.685 --> 00:49:44.590
but as someone who considers both Gigi and Pablo brothers and is grateful for that fact,

548
00:49:47.770 --> 00:49:48.430
it is

549
00:49:49.210 --> 00:49:51.550
it could be one of the most substantial,

550
00:49:52.984 --> 00:49:53.484
actionable,

551
00:49:54.825 --> 00:49:59.885
real change mechanisms in terms of accelerator programs that has ever existed.

552
00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:04.370
And every single participant of the program, including the operators,

553
00:50:04.990 --> 00:50:07.010
lost money on it, which is insane.

554
00:50:07.325 --> 00:50:08.145
And as

555
00:50:08.525 --> 00:50:11.825
as as someone who prides himself in being a capitalist,

556
00:50:14.980 --> 00:50:16.920
Pretty crazy to witness unfold.

557
00:50:17.300 --> 00:50:18.360
And I I

558
00:50:19.060 --> 00:50:20.120
will bring it up

559
00:50:20.740 --> 00:50:22.980
over and over and over again because

560
00:50:23.995 --> 00:50:27.535
grateful. I'm grateful. And I I it's just crazy that that happened.

561
00:50:28.235 --> 00:50:28.735
Yeah.

562
00:50:29.035 --> 00:50:34.120
I mean, I'm a full capitalist as well, but, like, I think there's certain things like that where you just go

563
00:50:35.240 --> 00:50:45.805
well, 1, it's proof of work. 2, it that is actually low time preference thinking. You know, you're you're just like, I'm gonna get way more from this than, you know, the the money matters at this point.

564
00:50:47.225 --> 00:50:47.725
And,

565
00:50:48.410 --> 00:50:50.250
yeah, like, I think it was

566
00:50:50.730 --> 00:50:57.285
it I would love to see, though. Like, I mean, yes, it was incredible. I think, obviously, having everybody in a place is is amazing.

567
00:50:58.625 --> 00:51:10.980
I would love to see more programs like that. Like, I would love to see people just sort of come together and do this kind of almost like a, okay. How many people can we get in x, you know, island or x, you know, village in the mountains or wherever it is?

568
00:51:11.520 --> 00:51:14.655
Let's all just stay in the same place. I've, like, sussed out the details.

569
00:51:15.515 --> 00:51:23.910
You know, show up, and we're gonna, you know, hack on this sort of vague space of ideas. But you can shortcut your way there. Like, there's no

570
00:51:24.210 --> 00:51:30.555
like money doesn't buy that. I think the whole key is that it's it was just pure ideology. It was, like, pure

571
00:51:31.335 --> 00:51:33.275
people cared. Right? Yep.

572
00:51:34.055 --> 00:51:35.675
I mean, you mentioned your own,

573
00:51:37.490 --> 00:51:39.590
flock of children. But, like,

574
00:51:40.850 --> 00:51:46.615
at the end of the day, like, if you have children, like, you wanna see them live in a better place. Right. And, like, it doesn't matter

575
00:51:47.075 --> 00:51:50.214
what does it cost time wise or what does it cost monetarily.

576
00:51:50.515 --> 00:51:51.974
None of that fucking matters.

577
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:57.020
And and if you solve those problems, though, you might not actually have the thing.

578
00:51:57.320 --> 00:51:59.180
Like, the thing might not actually happen.

579
00:51:59.905 --> 00:52:05.365
Right. So I don't know if we can I don't think we can manufacture it? I think it's just one of those beautiful things that happens.

580
00:52:05.825 --> 00:52:06.545
Yeah. And,

581
00:52:07.770 --> 00:52:10.270
Yeah. As someone who would like to manufacture

582
00:52:10.810 --> 00:52:11.710
better things

583
00:52:12.410 --> 00:52:15.230
Right. I don't think we can. I I think it's unmanufacturable.

584
00:52:16.315 --> 00:52:18.555
Yeah. There are certain things like that. Right? Like,

585
00:52:18.954 --> 00:52:21.454
you know, time and place and people

586
00:52:21.835 --> 00:52:27.350
matter. I I think they matter, like, a lot more, and they're a lot more serendipitous than a lot of people give them credit for.

587
00:52:28.290 --> 00:52:41.980
Like, you know, one of the things that I kind of always, you know, think is, like, sort of, I've been working remotely for more than 15 years. And, like, you know, for a long time, at the beginning, it was, like, super weird. No one works remotely. And then it, you know, over time, it's become more and more normal. But,

588
00:52:42.619 --> 00:52:44.800
I remember the beginning, I was like, no. No.

589
00:52:45.580 --> 00:52:46.400
Yeah. Exactly.

590
00:52:47.740 --> 00:52:48.800
But, like, it's

591
00:52:49.575 --> 00:52:58.315
it's one of those things that I think in the beginning, I was like, no. No. Like, you can do like, you can get just as much benefit being remote as being in the place with the other people. And

592
00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:01.160
certain things, yes.

593
00:53:01.700 --> 00:53:10.765
But, actually, there's this there's this layer that really is the kind of I don't know. It's like the thing you can't describe that we've just been talking about, which is, you know, there is some

594
00:53:11.385 --> 00:53:14.445
magic of when you get the right people in the right place together,

595
00:53:14.770 --> 00:53:22.095
and they're all, you know, similarly minded and they're all pushing against the same topic, they are gonna come out with something that is

596
00:53:22.734 --> 00:53:25.315
exponentially or, like, surprisingly much better,

597
00:53:25.935 --> 00:53:32.080
than any you know, than the same group would have done even if they'd been working on the same problem, but not in the same place.

598
00:53:33.200 --> 00:53:34.720
Damn right. Yeah.

599
00:53:35.200 --> 00:53:40.000
So yeah. I mean, I love living where I live, and I'm, like, out in the middle of nowhere. But at the same time, it's,

600
00:53:40.765 --> 00:53:43.985
I do put a you know? We got a lot of guitars over there.

601
00:53:44.285 --> 00:53:48.065
Yeah. I do have a couple of guitars. They don't get played as much as they should, but I do have some guitars.

602
00:53:48.685 --> 00:53:50.305
It's a lot less than I used to have.

603
00:53:52.030 --> 00:53:54.450
I also live kinda in the middle of nowhere, but

604
00:53:55.390 --> 00:53:58.690
close enough to Nashville that I get to see a bunch of big corners.

605
00:53:59.135 --> 00:54:01.235
Right. Exactly. And, like, you know, you prioritize

606
00:54:01.535 --> 00:54:10.310
that time. Right? Like, you're like, oh, no. This is this is the time that I need to go spend in the place with the people. It's important to see people in person as much as I just wanna,

607
00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:16.230
like, crawl into a hole or not crawl into a hole, but, like,

608
00:54:17.945 --> 00:54:20.365
you know, just not see anybody.

609
00:54:21.545 --> 00:54:23.325
It's important it's important

610
00:54:23.970 --> 00:54:28.630
to be in person with people, shake hands with people, look them in the eyes, argue with them in person,

611
00:54:29.089 --> 00:54:30.150
have a few beers,

612
00:54:30.690 --> 00:54:33.724
like, make the things happen. Like, it Yeah.

613
00:54:34.585 --> 00:54:36.525
Humanity progresses based on

614
00:54:38.185 --> 00:54:39.805
a small group of individuals,

615
00:54:40.400 --> 00:54:43.700
like, who just decide that they wanna make shit happen,

616
00:54:44.080 --> 00:54:45.380
and this thing happens.

617
00:54:45.680 --> 00:54:46.980
Yeah. Like, it's crazy.

618
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:49.300
It's crazy how much, like, we've

619
00:54:50.055 --> 00:55:08.055
removed personal responsibility from this world. Yes. This is this is the thing that kills me more than anything else, especially about living in Europe. Like, it drives me mad. No. I didn't know you were in Europe. But okay. Yeah. I've been we've been in, like, Northern Italy for 14, 15 years. So Madero is kinda close to you, bro.

620
00:55:08.615 --> 00:55:12.555
Ish. Still, like, 4 hour 4 and a half hour flight. It's closer than Nashville.

621
00:55:13.335 --> 00:55:14.714
Only marginally, though.

622
00:55:15.095 --> 00:55:16.234
Like, not much.

623
00:55:17.930 --> 00:55:21.370
Yep. I mean, it comes down to individuals. Like, that's the crazy part. It's like

624
00:55:21.770 --> 00:55:25.790
like, the one thing I would want to impress on as many people as possible

625
00:55:26.365 --> 00:55:32.785
is that you can change the fucking world. Yes. All progress happens at the margin. Yeah. This whole idea that,

626
00:55:33.405 --> 00:55:35.505
like, you raise kids, you're like, oh, like,

627
00:55:36.350 --> 00:55:40.130
you can do anything you wanna be, like, that is probably bullshit.

628
00:55:41.230 --> 00:55:41.730
But

629
00:55:43.165 --> 00:55:45.585
individuals do change the world. It happens

630
00:55:45.885 --> 00:55:46.385
constantly.

631
00:55:47.245 --> 00:55:48.945
It comes down to single people,

632
00:55:49.405 --> 00:55:53.650
groups of people, 5, 6, 10 people, 15 people. Change the world.

633
00:55:55.950 --> 00:55:59.410
And you just gotta keep pushing forward and, like, make that actually fucking happen.

634
00:56:00.030 --> 00:56:04.535
Right. And pick the right thing to work on. Right? Because, like, wouldn't be And not have a LinkedIn.

635
00:56:05.155 --> 00:56:08.775
And not have a LinkedIn. Yeah. Don't get don't get distracted with LinkedIn or TikTok

636
00:56:09.155 --> 00:56:09.895
or BlueJeans.

637
00:56:11.390 --> 00:56:14.670
I love by by the way, Harry's listening to this episode now.

638
00:56:15.230 --> 00:56:15.869
He's over

639
00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:22.175
Listening. He's around the he's put his headphones in so he can actually hear what we're talking about. Excellent.

640
00:56:23.515 --> 00:56:43.640
Harry's a good example, actually. So, like, I was hanging out with Harry there just, like, a month and a little bit ago and, like, that whole crew, and it was awesome. Like, you know, it's one of those, like, highlights of being able to go to these, you know, Bitcoin events, meet a bunch of people and go, I know your voice from a bunch of podcasts. Now I know you, and we've hung out, and we've, like, done stuff together. So I think Wait. What event did you meet Harry at?

641
00:56:44.020 --> 00:56:47.800
In, at cheat code in the UK. Oh, chi oh, I

642
00:56:48.180 --> 00:56:56.950
I probably should've went to cheat code. Yeah. You probably should have. It was fun. Yeah. Bedford was sick. He's listening. Bedford was sick. The Paris of the UK?

643
00:56:58.070 --> 00:57:00.029
Well, I sent Harry. Harry was my

644
00:57:00.470 --> 00:57:01.609
I was here. Designated

645
00:57:02.470 --> 00:57:06.215
conference goer? Yeah. So my diplomat you we kinda met each other

646
00:57:06.695 --> 00:57:13.435
through Kind of. Yeah. Maybe. Okay. Sure. Well, one day one day we'll meet each other. I honestly, like, there's too many conferences.

647
00:57:14.060 --> 00:57:15.580
There are too many conferences now.

648
00:57:16.460 --> 00:57:20.560
And I like I like I was saying, I actually really love to get this done.

649
00:57:20.994 --> 00:57:34.760
Yeah. I'm, like, a bit of a binary type of person, though. Like, I need to go to the conferences and, like, meet all the people and stay up all night long and, like, not sleep at all. But then I need to come home and work for a month quietly by myself in my attic, and that's it.

650
00:57:35.060 --> 00:57:35.560
Yeah.

651
00:57:35.860 --> 00:57:39.960
No. I mean, I agree. I but I went through that phase already. Like, I did

652
00:57:40.355 --> 00:57:43.234
I did a lot of events. I've done too many, but I don't

653
00:57:46.194 --> 00:57:51.200
yeah. I mean, I I I do not wanna be an influencer. I do not wanna be

654
00:57:54.140 --> 00:57:54.890
a celebrity.

655
00:57:55.395 --> 00:57:57.975
Like, I, like, kind of stumbled into this position,

656
00:57:58.755 --> 00:58:02.855
and I just care about freedom. Like, I just want people to have freedom.

657
00:58:03.475 --> 00:58:05.480
Jeff, I have you here.

658
00:58:06.020 --> 00:58:07.080
You know your shit.

659
00:58:07.540 --> 00:58:08.840
You're involved with Noster.

660
00:58:12.135 --> 00:58:15.275
I've I've put the call out that I will go on

661
00:58:15.895 --> 00:58:18.395
any show that wants to ask me hard questions.

662
00:58:20.950 --> 00:58:24.970
They don't exist, unfortunately, which is why Ciel Dispatch exists.

663
00:58:25.670 --> 00:58:26.569
Live, unedited.

664
00:58:28.390 --> 00:58:30.365
No shows with hard questions? None? I

665
00:58:31.244 --> 00:58:32.145
do you know one?

666
00:58:34.365 --> 00:58:36.545
I haven't thought about that, but let me think.

667
00:58:42.930 --> 00:58:43.430
No.

668
00:58:46.369 --> 00:58:47.510
It's pretty sad.

669
00:58:49.535 --> 00:58:51.295
I mean, I I feel like,

670
00:58:52.095 --> 00:58:56.880
what's the guy in the black suit? I can never remember his name. I haven't listened to his podcast in a long time. Fucking suits.

671
00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:09.275
I don't know who you're talking about. You know who I'm talking about? The kinda AI guy who does, like, the 5 hour podcast with all the same famous people. Yes. Lex Friedman. He doesn't ask hard questions. He has no is is that he had the possibility

672
00:59:09.655 --> 00:59:14.260
of being the person that would ask the hard questions. Not that person. Blew it. He does. Yeah. You do the opportunity.

673
00:59:14.640 --> 00:59:25.845
Yeah. You now just kinda like Because it's easier it's easier to take the sponsor that will pay you the most, and it will say the things. And you make everything edited and super polished,

674
00:59:26.224 --> 00:59:30.565
and you don't you don't do the fucking hard questions. So, Jeff Yeah. Yes.

675
00:59:30.930 --> 00:59:34.230
You're active in the Nostra community. I have respect for you.

676
00:59:34.690 --> 00:59:36.230
Do you have any hard questions,

677
00:59:38.050 --> 00:59:42.855
for me? Like, do you have any hard questions? I think this is I'm gonna make this

678
00:59:43.555 --> 00:59:46.535
a reoccurring segment on dispatch. You're the first.

679
00:59:47.470 --> 00:59:48.050
So sorry

680
00:59:48.350 --> 00:59:50.610
for putting you on the spot. It on me. Okay.

681
00:59:50.910 --> 00:59:53.650
But if if you have hard questions for me, and I'll I'll

682
00:59:54.295 --> 00:59:57.194
I'll actually do you a favor, and I'll prime your questions.

683
00:59:57.655 --> 01:00:06.700
Okay. Open SaaS. Do you have issues with Open SaaS? Primal 1031 is a major investor in primal. We are the largest investor in primal. Yes.

684
01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:09.740
We're the largest investor in mutiny wallet

685
01:00:11.635 --> 01:00:14.055
and and 34 other Bitcoin companies.

686
01:00:14.995 --> 01:00:17.015
Do you have any hard questions for me?

687
01:00:17.875 --> 01:00:18.115
So

688
01:00:18.820 --> 01:00:24.360
and and I'm going to I'm going to talk. I know you're an open session for a moment. Yeah. I know you're an open sass grantee.

689
01:00:24.900 --> 01:00:25.720
Just know.

690
01:00:26.505 --> 01:00:28.845
Yes. I will still approve any grants.

691
01:00:29.865 --> 01:00:31.645
I get the blanket stamp of approval.

692
01:00:32.185 --> 01:00:36.670
No. No. No. No. No. No. Not get a blanket stamp of approval. That's also bad. That's also

693
01:00:37.130 --> 01:00:40.270
bad. But your proof of work has shown that you should get an approval.

694
01:00:40.570 --> 01:00:50.724
So you will still get approval. I just care about approval work. While I think about a hard question, I'm gonna actually just talk about that whole thing because I actually don't think that's a hard question at all. And

695
01:00:51.390 --> 01:00:53.970
The whole thing about OpenSats and 1031

696
01:00:54.430 --> 01:00:55.170
and primal

697
01:00:55.550 --> 01:00:58.610
and, you know, conflicts of interest and things like that. Right?

698
01:01:01.655 --> 01:01:02.555
Like, I think

699
01:01:02.855 --> 01:01:04.395
all of these things are,

700
01:01:05.255 --> 01:01:11.250
nuanced, and I think humans in general, especially in social media are very, very, very bad at nuance.

701
01:01:11.550 --> 01:01:13.090
And they're very bad at understanding

702
01:01:13.390 --> 01:01:14.050
that, like,

703
01:01:15.905 --> 01:01:22.785
you know, situations and people like, the people are the messy bit, and it's not, like, it's most of the time not some sort of,

704
01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:27.960
you know, system that's against them. Right? Like, even when I think about,

705
01:01:28.260 --> 01:01:33.400
you know, Janet Yellen and, you know, Liz Warren and, like, all these,

706
01:01:34.295 --> 01:01:35.915
we'll leave all the words out. But

707
01:01:36.295 --> 01:01:51.910
I I kind of think, no, this is just a really, really bad, gigantic set of incentives that have gone on for so long that they don't even see most of it anymore. And so all of that is just a really complex system that has spit out these really bad

708
01:01:53.795 --> 01:02:10.040
externalities. Now, like, I think the only question here is, like, OpenSats, amazing. Like, OpenSats is one of the most incredible resources that Bitcoin and Noster has. Right? Along with Spiral, along with Brink, along with, you know, other systems that provide, you know, kinda no strings attached developer support.

709
01:02:11.595 --> 01:02:21.440
Like, that's incredibly rare. And I think, like, if anybody looks anywhere else around any other kind of space in the world, you'd be hard pressed to find a more sort of,

710
01:02:23.020 --> 01:02:23.600
like, ideologically

711
01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:24.480
aligned

712
01:02:25.020 --> 01:02:25.840
and incentivized

713
01:02:26.460 --> 01:02:27.840
group of nonprofits

714
01:02:28.395 --> 01:02:33.055
They're, like, do great work and don't take a cut off the top and don't you know, like, they're very

715
01:02:34.234 --> 01:02:38.640
I mean, I think, like, it fucked you for the Janet Yellen comparison.

716
01:02:39.420 --> 01:02:46.505
Well, I didn't say you were Janet Yellen. I mean, you're probably taller than her. So I think Janet Yellen is, I mean, who knows? I'm quite short,

717
01:02:46.885 --> 01:02:48.265
but full disclosure.

718
01:02:49.445 --> 01:03:00.230
But I think Janet Yellen is malicious. But I I that's just my own personal opinion. I I don't think there's any nuance needed there. I think she is like she's got the Cantillionaire,

719
01:03:01.445 --> 01:03:11.660
like Yeah. Antillion effect. Drinking from the spigot. Straight from the spigot. Yeah. And I just I think she's a bad actor. And but, I mean but you could argue that the

720
01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:17.099
incentives enable that Yes. Which is the incentive is that this big exists.

721
01:03:17.559 --> 01:03:20.380
Yeah. I think they became bad actors because of the incentives.

722
01:03:21.015 --> 01:03:28.555
Yeah. Like, very few people go through the world being like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go, you know, totally screw those people over there. Right? Like, I just

723
01:03:29.320 --> 01:03:36.285
if I didn't believe that, I think I would be, like, fully depressed all the time. Right? Like, you kinda have to just kinda go through life and be like, most people are trying their best.

724
01:03:37.085 --> 01:04:02.615
It drives me mad that most people are capable of doing better, but, like, that is kinda what it is. Yeah. Most people are just, like, in their hole, and they just don't realize what's going on for the most part. And they just they are they are they actually think they're doing well. Like Right. And back to the personal responsibility thing, most people don't actually want to take responsibility. They don't want to make the decisions. They don't want to have to make hard choices. And so they would actually just rather be told,

725
01:04:03.069 --> 01:04:10.855
if you do a, b, and c, then, like, you'll be pretty much fine. And as long as that contract mostly works out, like, honestly,

726
01:04:11.155 --> 01:04:11.655
unfortunately,

727
01:04:11.955 --> 01:04:15.255
from, you know, my point of view, like, that's what most people want.

728
01:04:16.515 --> 01:04:18.680
So you have no complaints about Open SENSE?

729
01:04:19.640 --> 01:04:30.925
I mean, my experience has been incredible. Like, one, I, you know, obviously, I'm a grant recipient. So, like, I have a dog in this horse or a race whatever it is, horse in this race.

730
01:04:32.505 --> 01:04:32.745
And

731
01:04:34.265 --> 01:04:39.700
but, like, you know, at no point has OpenSats ever tried to, like, nudge me one way or the other.

732
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:42.319
In fact, it'd probably be better if openSats

733
01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:43.380
Yeah.

734
01:04:43.685 --> 01:04:49.785
Well, I mean, yeah. Exactly. Like, it'd probably be better if OpenSats was a little bit more, like, hands on and pushy about, you know, their opinions.

735
01:04:51.130 --> 01:04:57.790
But, you know, I think you guys have, you know, set it up in a way as best you possibly can to make it uncorruptible.

736
01:04:58.170 --> 01:05:04.655
Like, there's a bunch of people that are board members that aren't resistant paid. Is what I'm Corruption resistant. Yeah. Exactly. Nothing is uncorruptible.

737
01:05:05.195 --> 01:05:07.135
Okay. Okay. Corruption resistant.

738
01:05:08.635 --> 01:05:09.535
You know, I think

739
01:05:10.210 --> 01:05:13.029
everybody's been super transparent about how the whole thing works.

740
01:05:13.730 --> 01:05:20.695
You know, I think, obviously, it's really hard when you get a ton of grant applications to actually sift through them and go, okay. What are our,

741
01:05:22.115 --> 01:05:29.950
like, what are the criteria that we judge these things based on? And I think for the most part, this last year has been you guys trying to figure out, like, what is our actual system here.

742
01:05:30.810 --> 01:05:32.010
So it's been a little bit

743
01:05:33.130 --> 01:05:36.670
Gigi told me that I I act too often.

744
01:05:37.050 --> 01:05:37.710
I like,

745
01:05:38.465 --> 01:05:42.485
so we do act knack. Everything is issue GitHub issue based.

746
01:05:43.025 --> 01:05:44.965
And I'm I'm, like, way too

747
01:05:46.940 --> 01:05:49.500
fluid with giving out the money. Like, I just

748
01:05:50.540 --> 01:05:55.225
Yeah. I just I because I I figure, like, the whole point of Open SaaS is that we're

749
01:05:57.225 --> 01:05:59.885
supposed to review it over time. Right? Yes. So, like, if I accidentally

750
01:06:00.265 --> 01:06:01.885
give someone 50 k

751
01:06:02.665 --> 01:06:03.485
for the year

752
01:06:04.380 --> 01:06:16.645
and and we give out larger larger grants than that. But if if I give out if we give out someone 50 k for the year and they don't actually hold up their end of the bargain and one of the beauty beautiful parts about open source software

753
01:06:17.185 --> 01:06:22.950
is that there's true proof of work. Like, you you see a record of what commits happen and and what happens.

754
01:06:23.650 --> 01:06:32.555
Right. I don't think that's, like, the biggest negative in the world. Like, that's fine. It's like, okay. I'm sorry that that we lost that money. Like, it could've went to a better developer.

755
01:06:32.855 --> 01:06:45.869
That does suck. There's opportunity cost there. Money is scarce. But but on the other hand, like, I mean, I don't know for all the grants, but, like, my understanding is that most of the grants are kind of, paid out over time. Like, it's not like you just throw.

756
01:06:46.335 --> 01:06:55.430
Exactly. And so Isn't that nice? Are not things that are you know, you you lose all the money immediately, and then you wait a year to figure out whether it's actually worth Oh, we'll figure it out in a couple months.

757
01:06:55.829 --> 01:07:00.970
Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, people are messy. Like, it's really hard to figure those things out. And, like, sometimes

758
01:07:01.430 --> 01:07:09.505
you do need to take wild bets on projects that look super bizarre and weird. And, like, you know, that's exactly what this is for in my opinion. And so

759
01:07:09.965 --> 01:07:11.505
to be honest, like, I,

760
01:07:12.340 --> 01:07:14.040
I've got no gripes with OpenSats.

761
01:07:14.340 --> 01:07:17.800
I've got no gripes that, there's board members who are,

762
01:07:18.260 --> 01:07:19.240
also VCs.

763
01:07:20.055 --> 01:07:22.795
You know, I happen to have a lot of friends at VCs. That's you.

764
01:07:23.335 --> 01:07:25.195
You know, I just think VC friends.

765
01:07:25.495 --> 01:07:31.840
I have VC friends. Yeah. I know. Wow. Some of them are actually friends yet. So it's not me. You're not talking about It's not you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean

766
01:07:32.140 --> 01:07:34.880
yeah. But, like, yeah, some of them are busy. Hopefully, Jeff.

767
01:07:35.180 --> 01:07:38.725
Maybe one day. Maybe. May we'll see. We'll see. We gotta meet. You know? We gotta hang out.

768
01:07:39.365 --> 01:07:46.025
You might ask me for, like, you know, my, like, LinkedIn DMs or something. I don't know. I would never ask for that. That'd be ridiculous.

769
01:07:47.640 --> 01:07:49.180
Okay. I think I have a hard question.

770
01:07:49.720 --> 01:08:03.745
Okay. Thank you. I need the hard questions. I'm gonna, like, try to find out what's going on. Bit of a softball hard question, though, because it's, like, one of those, like, what if type of things. But then I'll ask you, like, another hard question that gets better. But I do have this one because I think I'm just kinda curious.

771
01:08:05.080 --> 01:08:06.620
If there was no Bitcoin,

772
01:08:07.640 --> 01:08:10.220
what do you think you'd be doing? I'm so fucked.

773
01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:20.490
I don't know. What do you want my answer to be? I've dedicated my life to this. Literally think about, like, what else is there out there and where might you have ended up?

774
01:08:20.890 --> 01:08:22.270
My my core incentive

775
01:08:22.730 --> 01:08:25.310
is that if Bitcoin fails, I'm fucked.

776
01:08:26.090 --> 01:08:27.230
Like, I have nothing.

777
01:08:29.305 --> 01:08:32.765
Yeah. I just hear Harry just said, hey, Ben. Yes. I have nothing.

778
01:08:33.305 --> 01:08:34.685
Yeah. I don't want anything.

779
01:08:35.385 --> 01:08:35.885
I,

780
01:08:38.470 --> 01:08:39.610
Yeah. I just

781
01:08:41.030 --> 01:08:45.370
I guess it's less it's less about if Bitcoin fails. It's what if Bitcoin never was.

782
01:08:45.985 --> 01:08:47.925
Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin must succeed.

783
01:08:48.225 --> 01:08:50.245
Bitcoin must succeed. I mean, I was

784
01:08:50.785 --> 01:08:52.645
I don't talk about what my previous

785
01:08:53.170 --> 01:08:53.910
my previous,

786
01:08:55.090 --> 01:08:56.870
but it it's relatively

787
01:08:57.250 --> 01:08:57.750
unrelated.

788
01:08:58.770 --> 01:08:59.090
Okay.

789
01:08:59.890 --> 01:09:00.950
And it sucked.

790
01:09:01.315 --> 01:09:05.415
It fucking sucked. And I was just a wage slave. You know? I was just,

791
01:09:06.114 --> 01:09:06.614
yeah,

792
01:09:07.315 --> 01:09:11.820
I was just I was just making money and not really saving much of it. And,

793
01:09:13.160 --> 01:09:15.100
I mean, I've been in Bitcoin for

794
01:09:16.120 --> 01:09:17.820
over a decade now. So

795
01:09:19.215 --> 01:09:26.660
so Bitcoin is my life. Like, I just Right. And then Nasr recently has has taken up a larger portion of my life.

796
01:09:27.620 --> 01:09:37.015
But I think it's complimentary to Bitcoin. Like, it's really just a Yeah. I forget which episode we talked about this in, but I think Nasr is, like, the first Bitcoin child project.

797
01:09:37.635 --> 01:09:38.855
Like, it's not directly

798
01:09:39.635 --> 01:09:44.119
anchored in the blockchain or something like the shitcoiners would say. But, like,

799
01:09:44.420 --> 01:09:46.920
noster exists because Bitcoin exists,

800
01:09:47.460 --> 01:09:50.760
and it exists because Bitcoiners needed a communication protocol.

801
01:09:51.139 --> 01:09:53.000
And so noster was made.

802
01:09:53.815 --> 01:09:56.635
So Nasr, to me, is a child project to Bitcoin,

803
01:09:57.014 --> 01:10:05.079
and it's a feature, not a bug. Like, people say, like, oh, like, too much Bitcoin conversation happens or there's too many Bitcoin. Like, it's a feature, not a bug. Like, the reason

804
01:10:05.619 --> 01:10:11.960
we might have a possibility of a chance on a on a free speech protocol is because of

805
01:10:12.445 --> 01:10:18.705
because Bitcoiners exist, because Bitcoiners wanted to see it happen. Yep. Yep. But yeah. I've I've I've

806
01:10:19.060 --> 01:10:24.280
I've essentially you know, I say stay humble, Stack stats. People should stay humble in Stack stats.

807
01:10:26.155 --> 01:10:33.135
But, like, I'm all in. No regrets. Like, that's really my lifestyle. It's been my lifestyle for about 7, 8 years now.

808
01:10:33.490 --> 01:10:35.990
Yeah. And if Bitcoin were to fail,

809
01:10:37.570 --> 01:10:39.910
me and my family would have to do major,

810
01:10:41.815 --> 01:10:42.315
rediscovery

811
01:10:42.775 --> 01:10:48.395
over what we were supposed to do with our lives and also how we're gonna live our lives. Like, I don't really have a

812
01:10:48.900 --> 01:10:51.719
clean answer to that. That's a good question. Yeah.

813
01:10:52.020 --> 01:10:53.080
I have another one.

814
01:10:53.780 --> 01:10:56.340
And also, as we fucked because we just have

815
01:10:57.195 --> 01:11:01.215
Right. All of our funds are just held in multisig bitcoin. Like we have

816
01:11:02.075 --> 01:11:07.610
our treasury strategy is straight up. If you donate fiat, it immediately gets converted to Bitcoin.

817
01:11:08.150 --> 01:11:08.970
There's no,

818
01:11:10.070 --> 01:11:17.995
you know, time to market anything. It's just like we just hold in Bitcoin multi sig. Because the moment where Jack Dorsey's $21,000,000

819
01:11:18.614 --> 01:11:19.995
goes into a bank account

820
01:11:20.535 --> 01:11:24.090
Right. I assume it's lost until it gets to the multisig.

821
01:11:25.429 --> 01:11:31.770
Right? Like, it's like you don't actually have the funds. Well, like, can you imagine that? Can can can someone

822
01:11:32.135 --> 01:11:35.914
can one of the open sats haters out there just imagine $21,000,000

823
01:11:37.574 --> 01:11:39.114
entering into a bank account

824
01:11:39.630 --> 01:11:43.010
and trying to get that to Bitcoin. Like, that's the scariest fucking

825
01:11:43.949 --> 01:11:44.690
1 week,

826
01:11:45.790 --> 01:11:48.210
period where until we get it to the multisig.

827
01:11:48.835 --> 01:11:49.335
Yeah.

828
01:11:49.875 --> 01:11:53.155
Yeah. Look. I mean, coming back to that that conversation, like, I think that the,

829
01:11:54.355 --> 01:11:58.700
you know, for people out there that, wanna hate, like, it's the most,

830
01:11:59.400 --> 01:12:10.825
it's the worst way to actually get anything that you want done done. Right? Like, if you've got a Good hate it. A legitimate gripe, be positive and optimistic and talk to people in good faith and, like, point out why you think it's a problem.

831
01:12:11.525 --> 01:12:16.370
If you are annoyed that you haven't gotten a grant, and you really want one, keep applying.

832
01:12:17.070 --> 01:12:25.405
Like, I didn't get a grant on my first application either. So, you know, just apply again and, you know, make your case, show proof of work, like, do the legwork.

833
01:12:27.164 --> 01:12:30.420
So I I don't know. Like, the the whole thing, I've kinda tried to stay out of it, but, like,

834
01:12:30.900 --> 01:12:33.219
I just find it kinda tiresome because I don't think it,

835
01:12:33.860 --> 01:12:40.945
really is helpful for it's not a good use of anybody's time, basically. I love that I chose, like, one of the most optimistic people for my

836
01:12:41.245 --> 01:12:42.945
hard For your first hard questions?

837
01:12:43.725 --> 01:12:46.225
I Okay. I have a better hard question actually for you.

838
01:12:47.580 --> 01:12:50.560
What is the one thing that you think

839
01:12:52.699 --> 01:12:56.000
it's kind of a 2 part question. I hate 2 part questions, but I'm gonna do it anyways.

840
01:12:56.375 --> 01:12:59.435
Alright. What's the one thing that you think is holding

841
01:12:59.895 --> 01:13:02.235
Bitcoin and Nostra Development back,

842
01:13:04.054 --> 01:13:05.675
like it's slowing it down?

843
01:13:07.210 --> 01:13:07.710
And

844
01:13:08.650 --> 01:13:14.110
is there something that, like you know, is it something that we could learn or take from,

845
01:13:14.505 --> 01:13:17.725
you know, the shit coinery that tends to grow very quickly,

846
01:13:18.185 --> 01:13:19.545
and tends to get a lot of,

847
01:13:20.345 --> 01:13:21.725
a lot of, you know,

848
01:13:22.025 --> 01:13:22.650
I guess,

849
01:13:23.210 --> 01:13:25.070
interest overall in the tech community

850
01:13:25.610 --> 01:13:37.695
or just from, like, tech in general. So, you know, it doesn't have to be shitcoiners, but, like, you know, AI or any of the tech stuff that tends to grow, you know, exponentially faster than most Bitcoin and Nostra stuff. I mean, it's straight up money, man.

851
01:13:38.235 --> 01:13:39.054
Like, that's

852
01:13:40.060 --> 01:13:50.315
that's why I was a masochist and agreed with Ben Price when he reached out. When Ben reached out to me about Open Sats, he was a complete nobody. Bitcoin company didn't exist.

853
01:13:51.014 --> 01:13:54.395
He had a different name. He reached out to me on Keybase because

854
01:13:55.290 --> 01:14:03.630
signals at that point still didn't let you communicate without doxing your phone number. So, like, Keybase was the main way that people could just reach out to me.

855
01:14:04.745 --> 01:14:07.165
And he was like, we need to start open sets.

856
01:14:07.705 --> 01:14:09.005
And I was like, no.

857
01:14:09.625 --> 01:14:11.005
Like, it's anti Bitcoin.

858
01:14:11.970 --> 01:14:13.590
Like, there shouldn't be a middle man.

859
01:14:14.130 --> 01:14:16.630
Like, you should just people should just donate directly.

860
01:14:17.170 --> 01:14:23.865
So then I talked to Dennis Reiman, and we built bitcoin devilish dotcom. And, like, people could donate directly, and no one donated directly.

861
01:14:25.925 --> 01:14:30.025
And then I went back to Ben, and I was like, okay. Fine. I'll do this thing, but please

862
01:14:31.010 --> 01:14:33.989
limit my paperwork. Like, I don't wanna deal with paperwork.

863
01:14:35.570 --> 01:14:44.695
And he's done a good job with that. Like, he dealt with the majority of paperwork, and he deserves mass of credit for that. And he also deserves massive credit for the idea of a 100% pass through organization.

864
01:14:45.395 --> 01:14:45.895
Yeah.

865
01:14:46.275 --> 01:14:50.990
Because I would be lying if I didn't say, like, oh, well, what if we took, like, a humble 3%,

866
01:14:51.930 --> 01:14:52.430
you

867
01:14:52.730 --> 01:14:53.950
know, for our troubles,

868
01:14:54.890 --> 01:14:57.605
which is significant. Like, we have significant troubles.

869
01:14:58.005 --> 01:14:58.505
Yeah.

870
01:14:58.805 --> 01:15:03.385
And that's how this whole idea of the operations fund got born. But, anyway, my point is

871
01:15:05.010 --> 01:15:08.150
is it really does come down to the money and the support.

872
01:15:08.930 --> 01:15:09.430
And

873
01:15:10.370 --> 01:15:12.710
as much as we can say, like,

874
01:15:13.485 --> 01:15:18.224
oh, like, that doesn't matter, like, open source, like, let's do this, let's do that.

875
01:15:18.525 --> 01:15:19.665
Like, all the shitcoiners

876
01:15:20.250 --> 01:15:26.349
have, like, these massive debt funds that are paid by the foundation that takes the prima and that does the fucking thing.

877
01:15:26.969 --> 01:15:30.030
And in Bitcoin, we don't have that liberty. We don't have that,

878
01:15:31.245 --> 01:15:31.745
gratefully

879
01:15:32.205 --> 01:15:34.545
I'm very grateful. We don't have a free mind,

880
01:15:35.405 --> 01:15:36.945
that can fund all that shit.

881
01:15:37.310 --> 01:15:41.330
Right? And and this is where you get all this bullshit. Right? Where it's like Right.

882
01:15:43.150 --> 01:15:54.150
You know, like OpenAI or whatever. Like, oh, we have this dev fund, and and it's, like, super easy. You could build apps on top of our surveillance software, and you can do this and you can do that. It's not it's not just shit coins.

883
01:15:54.630 --> 01:15:55.929
Right. And I think

884
01:15:56.949 --> 01:15:57.850
people underestimate

885
01:15:58.230 --> 01:16:00.250
the fact that Open SaaS is an organization

886
01:16:00.630 --> 01:16:03.530
that it's something like that has never existed before.

887
01:16:03.925 --> 01:16:08.344
And, like, we built it from the ground up to try and be as corruption resistant as possible,

888
01:16:09.045 --> 01:16:13.385
and we built it from the ground up to be a Bitcoin standard organization.

889
01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:15.580
I mean, this whole idea of

890
01:16:16.199 --> 01:16:18.380
of monthly payouts is insane

891
01:16:19.159 --> 01:16:20.139
if you're not

892
01:16:20.520 --> 01:16:22.699
doing Bitcoin batch transactions.

893
01:16:23.805 --> 01:16:24.305
Right.

894
01:16:24.925 --> 01:16:28.465
And and the idea that an individual board member doesn't have access

895
01:16:29.165 --> 01:16:29.985
to the funds

896
01:16:30.739 --> 01:16:31.800
because it's multisig

897
01:16:32.580 --> 01:16:33.320
is fucking

898
01:16:34.099 --> 01:16:34.599
groundbreaking.

899
01:16:35.219 --> 01:16:43.665
And, like, it's simple shit. It and but it's it's super simple. It's not like I'm not pretending like we reinvented the wheel. We just decided to do the hard thing

900
01:16:44.205 --> 01:16:45.745
using simple tech

901
01:16:46.260 --> 01:16:47.000
that existed.

902
01:16:48.020 --> 01:16:48.520
Yep.

903
01:16:49.619 --> 01:16:55.239
And I think it does change the game. I think I think at the end of the day, especially in this regulatory environment,

904
01:16:56.305 --> 01:16:57.445
if you look at it,

905
01:16:58.145 --> 01:16:58.725
I think

906
01:16:59.505 --> 01:17:01.445
people are over indexing

907
01:17:01.825 --> 01:17:01.985
on

908
01:17:05.030 --> 01:17:06.730
I mean, you're Italian, but,

909
01:17:07.989 --> 01:17:19.435
most of our audience is American. They're like, oh, the government's coming after self custody Bitcoin ownership. The US government's coming after self cuss I really don't think that's the case. I think most self custody Bitcoin owners are fine.

910
01:17:21.015 --> 01:17:26.880
I think the bigger concern would be, like, future self custody Bitcoin owners. Like like, try and add friction

911
01:17:27.420 --> 01:17:32.720
to Yeah. Own self custody Bitcoin so you just end up in ETF somehow in coin based custody.

912
01:17:33.315 --> 01:17:37.494
Yeah. Whether it's an ETF or some other product, it's like you're in Coinbase custody.

913
01:17:37.795 --> 01:17:38.295
Right.

914
01:17:39.315 --> 01:17:39.815
But

915
01:17:41.300 --> 01:17:48.199
the bigger issue the bigger issue is that, like, if you're gonna build Freedom Software, if you're gonna build software that enables Freedom,

916
01:17:49.094 --> 01:17:52.635
you have immense liability if you take a profit off of it.

917
01:17:53.415 --> 01:17:57.195
And I think Open Sats kind of, like, bridges that gap.

918
01:17:58.310 --> 01:18:00.010
Yep. OpenSats provides

919
01:18:01.030 --> 01:18:03.050
a way for people to live. I mean,

920
01:18:04.150 --> 01:18:04.630
I get

921
01:18:06.105 --> 01:18:14.365
and one of these things is, like, people don't realize. They're like, oh, it should just only be devs as the board members. They everyone has their complaint about what it should be.

922
01:18:16.090 --> 01:18:22.030
But at the end of the day, it's a it's a high pressure position to be in, and I respect that position. Like, I

923
01:18:22.489 --> 01:18:24.989
I respect the fact that people think

924
01:18:26.025 --> 01:18:27.485
that my integrity matters.

925
01:18:28.185 --> 01:18:31.885
And I I agree my integrity matters. Like, it does matter.

926
01:18:32.510 --> 01:18:37.010
It should matter less because we have 9 board members. That's why we designed it that way.

927
01:18:38.830 --> 01:18:41.570
But my I I I guess my point is

928
01:18:41.965 --> 01:18:42.705
is that

929
01:18:43.965 --> 01:18:44.705
to provide

930
01:18:45.165 --> 01:18:46.705
no strings attached funding

931
01:18:47.485 --> 01:18:48.865
to open source contributors

932
01:18:49.440 --> 01:18:54.340
that might not be able to monetize their open source project because then they get thrown in a gulag

933
01:18:55.679 --> 01:18:57.300
is incredibly important.

934
01:18:57.935 --> 01:18:59.795
And some of these open source contributors

935
01:19:00.175 --> 01:19:01.875
that received grants from OpenSats

936
01:19:02.655 --> 01:19:05.650
have better take home pay than I had this year.

937
01:19:06.210 --> 01:19:07.830
And I'm cool with that,

938
01:19:09.010 --> 01:19:15.110
because, first of all, I care about the mission. 2nd of all, I have a child, and I plan to have more.

939
01:19:15.805 --> 01:19:17.825
And I want them to live in a better world.

940
01:19:18.925 --> 01:19:22.705
And third of all, because that's the only way that it's gonna fucking happen.

941
01:19:23.210 --> 01:19:29.710
Like, there's no way that it doesn't happen that way. That it's either it happens that way or it doesn't fucking happen.

942
01:19:30.175 --> 01:19:34.195
I would love a world where everyone just zaps people directly.

943
01:19:35.615 --> 01:19:36.115
Congratulations.

944
01:19:36.655 --> 01:19:40.750
There's, like, 3 people that zap more than me. No one fucking does it.

945
01:19:42.010 --> 01:19:46.510
Citadel Dispatch has been funded on Zaps since before Zaps existed.

946
01:19:47.835 --> 01:19:55.055
And Lionel Shriver came on the podcast, and she got, like, 3 x more than I ever have gotten ever in Cielo Dispatch history.

947
01:19:55.810 --> 01:19:58.869
And that is fine. But, like, my point is is, like,

948
01:19:59.409 --> 01:20:06.185
I would like there not to be a middleman. I would like there not to be a 9 person board that decides that allocate stuff. I would like,

949
01:20:07.125 --> 01:20:08.025
the best complaint

950
01:20:08.565 --> 01:20:09.865
we haven't really gotten

951
01:20:10.245 --> 01:20:10.745
is

952
01:20:11.285 --> 01:20:12.270
that open source,

953
01:20:12.830 --> 01:20:18.210
Open SaaS contributors and HRF contributors and Brink contributors and Spyro contributors

954
01:20:18.670 --> 01:20:24.114
all have to submit 10.90 nines and essentially KYC with themselves with the US government.

955
01:20:25.535 --> 01:20:27.635
I would prefer if that wasn't the case.

956
01:20:27.935 --> 01:20:30.275
Me too. Prefer they receive donations directly.

957
01:20:32.040 --> 01:20:40.945
We haven't gotten into that point yet. Right. So someone has to do the hard shit, and we're doing the hard shit. Yep. Yep. I'm trying to make it happen. Yep.

958
01:20:41.565 --> 01:20:48.510
I mean, I saw somebody's, made a point about, it's kinda gone in the comments now, but kinda saying, growth at all costs is a bad trade.

959
01:20:48.969 --> 01:20:50.429
And I think, like,

960
01:20:50.969 --> 01:20:51.469
yes,

961
01:20:51.849 --> 01:20:52.349
100%,

962
01:20:52.650 --> 01:20:53.150
but,

963
01:20:54.409 --> 01:20:58.085
I guess, the point of my question was not necessarily how do we do growth at all costs.

964
01:20:59.344 --> 01:21:06.480
I think what we all want is more freedom. And we know that this space has to grow, and we have to get more people

965
01:21:06.780 --> 01:21:18.575
to realize that this is normal and okay and and reasonable. Like, we're never gonna convert the entire world to be as psychopathic as we are. Right? Because, like, as we talked about before, it's a small number of people that that make things change in the world.

966
01:21:19.755 --> 01:21:26.510
But we do have to make this normal to a lot more people so that they don't keep attacking us. Right?

967
01:21:28.445 --> 01:21:40.199
I I am very sympathetic to to your point there. Right? Like, I've worked in a lot of venture funded startups where, you know, the money comes in and it's put to, you know, good or bad use, but it's put to use.

968
01:21:41.380 --> 01:21:58.010
And I think, you know, for better or worse, that's the world we live in. Like, it costs money to make things happen. And so you need to have a way to, you know, exert that force in the world and, you know, and use that as a, you know, kind of multiplier against, you know, the actual effort that you can expend.

969
01:21:58.630 --> 01:22:08.195
What do you think about, since I feel like you're not asking the hard questions, what do you think about Muni with 2 u's saying non NIMs are an attack vector?

970
01:22:13.200 --> 01:22:18.805
Wait. Mutiny with 2 u's. I'm still confused about this part. It's muny. It's m u u n y Asking

971
01:22:19.265 --> 01:22:22.005
he he's not asking. There's it's not a question.

972
01:22:22.385 --> 01:22:27.285
He's just saying non nims are an attack vector. And, obviously, both me and you have our faces

973
01:22:28.050 --> 01:22:30.070
here. Obviously, your name is Jeff.

974
01:22:30.690 --> 01:22:32.550
Yeah. Look. My name is Odell.

975
01:22:33.810 --> 01:22:42.395
I go back and forth here. Like, one, people can do what they want. Like, I'm the last person that is gonna stand up and be like, no. People should not have NIMs.

976
01:22:44.400 --> 01:22:49.760
I have NIMs. But there you go. But, like, I think the main point is that,

977
01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:52.980
we have to operate from where we are now,

978
01:22:53.770 --> 01:22:58.364
and we're gonna need probably both things. Right? We're gonna need people that,

979
01:22:59.304 --> 01:23:03.804
are able to do things that are well outside what's, you know, technically legal,

980
01:23:04.400 --> 01:23:14.375
And they can do that because they've got great OPSEC and good NIMs. And we also need people that are doxed and can have the conversations in public and be a little bit, you know, more,

981
01:23:15.315 --> 01:23:20.455
I mean, for lack of a better word, a little bit closer to the normal Overton window of what people expect.

982
01:23:21.600 --> 01:23:24.340
I think we need both of those things. And so I don't think that,

983
01:23:24.880 --> 01:23:31.205
it's really a question of, like, we must be all on one side or, you know, it's not worthwhile at all.

984
01:23:32.085 --> 01:23:41.060
And this is, like, when people level, you know, all the the hate at primal for KYC ing Oh, yeah. Let's talk about that. That's just dumb. Give me the hard questions.

985
01:23:41.440 --> 01:23:47.940
That's not even a hard question. Like, these are like, in my mind, that's just a simple trade off of, like, hey. We wanna operate in a space

986
01:23:48.344 --> 01:23:51.405
where we're in the fully regulated thing that people are

987
01:23:51.705 --> 01:24:01.150
normal like, normies expect. They are not weirded out by this, and we wanna make it super, super, super easy. And the only way to do that right now is to do that in a KYC light way.

988
01:24:01.450 --> 01:24:01.950
And,

989
01:24:02.490 --> 01:24:24.425
yes, it's not the client you wanna use if you wanna be, like, you know, a full OPSEC, you know, ninja with your mask up. Like, just pick your tools. Like, I don't know. It's just it just seems like, you know, people missing the point again where it's like, okay. We have different tools for different things. Like, you don't need to, like, turn everything in your toolbox into a hammer. You're the worst person to ask for hard questions, I guess. But,

990
01:24:25.145 --> 01:24:37.970
I I think I just look at Nuance, and I'm like, there's a lot like, there are no solutions. There's only trade offs. And so, like, you can pick the trade offs you want, but, like, you're never gonna get something that's just perfect. I'm I'm glad I started a hard question hour with you, though. I think it's

991
01:24:38.655 --> 01:24:41.235
I I rolled the softball to you on the ground.

992
01:24:42.575 --> 01:24:43.075
I,

993
01:24:43.455 --> 01:24:46.115
one thing I would say about the nims versus

994
01:24:48.490 --> 01:24:50.270
completely exposed individuals.

995
01:24:50.570 --> 01:24:55.230
Because I I mean, I that's how I would describe myself, completely exposed,

996
01:24:57.755 --> 01:24:58.975
which is not great.

997
01:24:59.675 --> 01:25:02.175
It's not an ideal situation to be in.

998
01:25:03.755 --> 01:25:05.455
I'm not asking for people's

999
01:25:07.360 --> 01:25:07.860
sympathy.

1000
01:25:08.880 --> 01:25:10.660
I'm asking for their understanding,

1001
01:25:11.360 --> 01:25:11.860
maybe.

1002
01:25:12.400 --> 01:25:17.704
Or if you if you're just fucking retarded and you don't wanna have that, then then fine. That's whatever.

1003
01:25:18.165 --> 01:25:18.905
But, like,

1004
01:25:19.364 --> 01:25:21.065
just know where I'm coming from.

1005
01:25:21.450 --> 01:25:26.989
I feel personally completely fucking exposed, and a lot of that was my own fucking choices.

1006
01:25:27.530 --> 01:25:29.150
Okay. That's where we stand.

1007
01:25:29.645 --> 01:25:31.905
If you are one of those people,

1008
01:25:33.885 --> 01:25:35.264
it is imperative

1009
01:25:35.965 --> 01:25:37.585
that you support the nymphs.

1010
01:25:38.270 --> 01:25:39.330
That you actually,

1011
01:25:41.630 --> 01:25:44.370
elevate them, that you give them more,

1012
01:25:45.365 --> 01:25:46.425
a larger audience.

1013
01:25:46.965 --> 01:25:48.505
Because at the end of the day,

1014
01:25:49.685 --> 01:25:50.185
humans

1015
01:25:50.885 --> 01:25:51.385
appreciate

1016
01:25:51.765 --> 01:25:52.745
seeing a person,

1017
01:25:53.045 --> 01:25:54.505
understanding a person,

1018
01:25:55.350 --> 01:25:57.850
feeling the person. They they they want

1019
01:25:58.230 --> 01:26:00.250
they want an individual they can,

1020
01:26:00.710 --> 01:26:01.210
recognize

1021
01:26:01.750 --> 01:26:05.275
and and and feel like they are are friends with.

1022
01:26:05.655 --> 01:26:08.715
And as a result, the people that are exposed

1023
01:26:09.735 --> 01:26:10.954
have a greater

1024
01:26:12.100 --> 01:26:14.360
a a greater influence in terms of,

1025
01:26:16.420 --> 01:26:18.120
elevating those that aren't.

1026
01:26:18.500 --> 01:26:20.040
And I think it's incredibly

1027
01:26:20.820 --> 01:26:21.320
empowering,

1028
01:26:22.725 --> 01:26:24.345
when you have those people

1029
01:26:25.445 --> 01:26:25.945
help

1030
01:26:26.965 --> 01:26:34.250
the nims. Right? And help out the nims. And and this is one of the reasons why, like, someone like a Jordan Peterson was so disappointing to me,

1031
01:26:34.710 --> 01:26:37.930
because you had, like, this guy who has this massive audience.

1032
01:26:38.550 --> 01:26:39.050
And

1033
01:26:39.675 --> 01:26:46.555
not only did he decide not to elevate the nims, he decided to pariah the nims and, like, make them out to be this horrible

1034
01:26:47.275 --> 01:26:55.565
and it's like, if you're not going to elevate them, then just shut the fuck up. Like, don't do this. Don't do that. The far extreme of the other side.

1035
01:26:56.364 --> 01:27:05.930
Did you did you see the TED talk there recently with Scott Galloway where he, like, ripped into TED and basically all the boomers for, like, ruining their you know, the children's future, basically.

1036
01:27:06.310 --> 01:27:08.310
No. Not. It was really good.

1037
01:27:09.030 --> 01:27:29.740
You know, it's like I don't know. Whatever. 11 minute TED talk. And it's, like, great until the last, like, 30 seconds when he's like, here are some concrete things we can do. And it was like, you know, only, you know, real identities on the Internet. And I was like, oh, I'm lost. Like, you've lost me completely. Like, you had great ideas. You are totally speaking. You you are a Bitcoiner. You just don't know it yet, and you screwed up.

1038
01:27:30.555 --> 01:27:46.739
Because I totally agree with you. Like, I think, again, it's really important that we also, as people that are out there, normalize the fact that it's fine for people to hide their identity. It's not nefarious. It's not something that is dangerous. Be the norm. It really should be. Like, people should default

1039
01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:47.940
to nims.

1040
01:27:48.655 --> 01:27:50.915
And then if they want to be

1041
01:27:52.815 --> 01:27:53.315
exposed,

1042
01:27:54.415 --> 01:27:56.835
then they choose to be exposed in the future.

1043
01:27:57.510 --> 01:28:02.490
It shouldn't be it it shouldn't be the opposite. And it's one of the reasons why the way I built dispatch

1044
01:28:03.670 --> 01:28:07.865
is that we're audio first. Right? It's like most of the time, we don't have

1045
01:28:08.965 --> 01:28:11.705
video enabled with it. Mhmm. It's because

1046
01:28:12.325 --> 01:28:14.905
even if you are a person that cares about

1047
01:28:15.230 --> 01:28:16.450
protecting your face,

1048
01:28:17.150 --> 01:28:24.435
on most podcasts, like, you're the ostracized person. It's like, oh, it's a random guest that just decided to do it.

1049
01:28:24.835 --> 01:28:26.215
The norm should be

1050
01:28:27.795 --> 01:28:29.735
not that. The norm should be

1051
01:28:30.915 --> 01:28:36.820
not exposing yourself. And and especially as we move to this more digital first era,

1052
01:28:38.080 --> 01:28:40.020
it becomes even more important.

1053
01:28:40.715 --> 01:28:43.054
And we we've we've actually done the opposite

1054
01:28:43.435 --> 01:28:44.574
for the most part,

1055
01:28:45.034 --> 01:28:46.815
and it's been incredibly disappointing.

1056
01:28:47.500 --> 01:28:52.000
Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. Yeah. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back is just because

1057
01:28:52.780 --> 01:28:56.000
if I think someone can do it better than me, I'm just gonna let them do it.

1058
01:28:56.355 --> 01:28:57.495
But no one does,

1059
01:28:57.955 --> 01:28:58.695
and it

1060
01:28:58.995 --> 01:28:59.735
it's sad.

1061
01:29:00.195 --> 01:29:02.855
It's sad. I challenge everyone out there.

1062
01:29:03.290 --> 01:29:08.430
Build a better open sats. Build a better 1031. Build a better silhouette. Build a better civil dispatch. Build a better rabbit hole recap.

1063
01:29:08.890 --> 01:29:13.675
I will listen to your rabbit hole recap. I will listen to your civil dispatch. I'll invest in your 1031,

1064
01:29:14.375 --> 01:29:16.235
and I'll donate to your open sats.

1065
01:29:17.495 --> 01:29:19.355
But no one's fucking done it.

1066
01:29:19.735 --> 01:29:21.915
And it's frustrating and exhausting,

1067
01:29:23.620 --> 01:29:28.440
and I'd rather them do it. Jeff, we need to talk about primal k y c.

1068
01:29:28.900 --> 01:29:32.935
Okay. Let's do it. I know you don't want to. I know you think No. I don't mind. Mind.

1069
01:29:33.315 --> 01:29:34.054
I don't mind.

1070
01:29:34.995 --> 01:29:36.455
I I don't like it.

1071
01:29:37.074 --> 01:29:37.574
Okay.

1072
01:29:38.250 --> 01:29:39.310
I don't like it either.

1073
01:29:39.690 --> 01:29:41.230
I don't like it either. But, like,

1074
01:29:42.410 --> 01:29:46.830
I don't like it. It's a trade off. And it's definitely a trade off.

1075
01:29:49.355 --> 01:29:50.094
I think,

1076
01:29:50.635 --> 01:29:52.415
first of all, what people don't realize

1077
01:29:53.034 --> 01:29:55.375
and I mean, it should be immediately obvious

1078
01:29:56.155 --> 01:29:56.655
is,

1079
01:30:00.100 --> 01:30:00.920
as investors

1080
01:30:01.300 --> 01:30:02.760
at, with 1031,

1081
01:30:03.140 --> 01:30:03.640
like,

1082
01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:05.160
first of all,

1083
01:30:07.075 --> 01:30:10.055
I'm grateful that I have amazing partners at 10:31.

1084
01:30:10.595 --> 01:30:14.615
Grant, Jonathan, Marty, amazing. And then we have John Arnold

1085
01:30:14.990 --> 01:30:15.730
who does,

1086
01:30:16.750 --> 01:30:17.250
everything.

1087
01:30:17.790 --> 01:30:20.290
He does so much for us, and he's a

1088
01:30:20.670 --> 01:30:22.930
he's a a junior member of 1031.

1089
01:30:26.405 --> 01:30:26.905
I

1090
01:30:28.565 --> 01:30:30.105
am probably the most

1091
01:30:30.965 --> 01:30:33.945
active with our founders out of all of us.

1092
01:30:35.550 --> 01:30:36.369
And still,

1093
01:30:37.550 --> 01:30:39.730
like, I don't tell founders what to do.

1094
01:30:40.190 --> 01:30:45.475
Like, we we don't we don't we don't dictate how they operate their businesses.

1095
01:30:45.855 --> 01:30:47.875
One of the key value props of 1031

1096
01:30:48.255 --> 01:30:48.995
is that

1097
01:30:50.200 --> 01:30:59.420
is that we're not just, like, suits entering the room and just decide how you run your business. Like, if you need our help, we are here for you. If you don't want our help,

1098
01:31:00.115 --> 01:31:01.335
we will fuck off.

1099
01:31:01.795 --> 01:31:02.295
And

1100
01:31:02.675 --> 01:31:05.095
and then we'll do everything in the middle.

1101
01:31:05.635 --> 01:31:12.130
Everything in the middle, like, you you need our help but want us to fuck off in different situations. We'll fucking do that. Right.

1102
01:31:13.630 --> 01:31:19.685
And I love Milan. I think Milan cares about Nasser. I think he cares about freedom. I think he cares about Bitcoin,

1103
01:31:21.344 --> 01:31:23.045
Milan being the founder of primal.

1104
01:31:25.910 --> 01:31:30.170
I don't think Milan wants to attach k y c to m pups.

1105
01:31:30.630 --> 01:31:34.855
I don't think I don't think Milan has, like, this massive evil agenda.

1106
01:31:35.495 --> 01:31:39.915
I think he wants more people to use Bitcoin, and I think he wants more people to use Nasr.

1107
01:31:40.614 --> 01:31:44.680
And he finds himself in this regulatory environment where if you're a

1108
01:31:45.740 --> 01:31:46.240
founder,

1109
01:31:47.300 --> 01:31:50.120
you're just, like, stuck with all this liability.

1110
01:31:50.875 --> 01:31:57.135
Yes. And he also wants ease of UX, and lightning fucking sucks if it's not custodial.

1111
01:31:57.435 --> 01:31:58.574
It's tough. Yep.

1112
01:31:59.250 --> 01:32:01.670
So we end up in this weird fucking situation,

1113
01:32:02.850 --> 01:32:03.989
where he's doing

1114
01:32:05.730 --> 01:32:08.855
KYC. And he's doing KYC, but it's it's like KYC.

1115
01:32:09.335 --> 01:32:13.435
I mean, it's doing email verification. It's still KYC. Yeah. But it's still KYC.

1116
01:32:13.895 --> 01:32:15.870
Is it it's attaching it to m pups,

1117
01:32:18.350 --> 01:32:29.295
and that fucking sucks. Like, I I don't pretend that doesn't. Like, if if you think, like I woke up this morning. I was like, that fucking sucks. Like, that was my first thought this morning. Yeah. Like, I woke up next to my beautiful wife.

1118
01:32:29.835 --> 01:32:33.215
Like, I had my 2 dogs my 3 dogs You are the meme.

1119
01:32:34.730 --> 01:32:40.510
You know? Yeah. She's like, what is he thinking about? I was just like Exactly. Primal KYC. Primal KYC.

1120
01:32:41.210 --> 01:32:43.335
That's what I woke up thinking about. Yeah.

1121
01:32:44.295 --> 01:32:50.635
Yep. Again, I this is lit like, you just literally spelled out the trade offs. And and, like, that's

1122
01:32:51.130 --> 01:32:56.830
being a founder is the hardest job in the world because, 1, you're doing something that's never been done before or or at least you should be.

1123
01:32:57.530 --> 01:32:58.350
And 2,

1124
01:32:59.355 --> 01:33:13.585
you know, the buck stops with you, and you are left with a bunch of really hard choices that that are basically suck. And, you know, I have worked in a bunch of startups. I ran my own startup. I advise founders. And, like, I've had a bunch of conversations the last week where it was literally like,

1125
01:33:14.145 --> 01:33:24.490
okay. You know, after the samurai situation, like, what are you guys thinking? And Yeah. Almost all those conversations are basically the same. It's like, here are 2 really shitty, horrible decisions

1126
01:33:24.950 --> 01:33:39.910
or paths that we can take. They both suck. They're both horrible. We don't wanna do either. We just wanna be left the fuck alone so we can build this really cool thing we wanna build. But we have to make a choice one way or the other so we don't go to jail. Yeah. You don't wanna have, like, regulatory

1127
01:33:40.290 --> 01:33:41.670
action by SWAT team.

1128
01:33:42.210 --> 01:33:54.000
Right. Exactly. Like, we don't want our door kicked in. We don't We wanna keep building this thing in some version. Like, maybe it's not quite the version we had in mind, but, like, we wanna build some version of it, and we wanna be able to help rather than sit in jail.

1129
01:33:54.960 --> 01:33:55.700
And so,

1130
01:33:56.160 --> 01:34:05.615
like, for all the people out there that yell about, oh, like, you know, just tell them to go fuck off and, like, do whatever you want. Like, it doesn't technically work like that. Like, yes. Some things,

1131
01:34:06.155 --> 01:34:09.410
you know, you have to be very, very careful about where you apply that sort of force.

1132
01:34:10.290 --> 01:34:16.710
And if you want a system that's going to be for normal people to use and you want it to be super easy and really approachable

1133
01:34:17.410 --> 01:34:42.085
and easily easy to understand, like, Like, you're gonna have to swallow some of those bitter pills. Like, it's just a fact. And so I don't like, again, like, I kind of I don't look at that and go, oh, like, million has failed us. Like, you know, Pranula is, you know, such a bad tool. I just go, it's a certain type of tool for a certain type of user. And if you're the type of user that that you really hate POIC, there's plenty of other tools over here for you. Like, you know and that's the beauty of Nostra is we have the choice.

1134
01:34:43.025 --> 01:34:45.445
Yeah. The beauty of Nostra is you can literally leave

1135
01:34:45.745 --> 01:34:52.570
and Exactly. Choose a different tool. And I will still see your notes, and I could still Exactly. Engage with your notes. And, like

1136
01:34:53.670 --> 01:34:55.130
yeah. And and

1137
01:34:55.670 --> 01:34:56.570
and the negative

1138
01:34:57.545 --> 01:35:01.724
the negative is and this is one of the reasons why I've been so focused on OpenSats,

1139
01:35:02.744 --> 01:35:06.045
is the negative is is there aren't really tools

1140
01:35:06.560 --> 01:35:08.020
that work as well.

1141
01:35:08.639 --> 01:35:10.179
You know? I I had,

1142
01:35:12.800 --> 01:35:14.739
like, a full dev team,

1143
01:35:16.485 --> 01:35:16.985
like,

1144
01:35:17.765 --> 01:35:18.265
NostredevIlluminati

1145
01:35:21.685 --> 01:35:22.185
dispatch,

1146
01:35:22.739 --> 01:35:24.600
with Fiat Jeff and Pablo.

1147
01:35:25.300 --> 01:35:25.800
Mhmm.

1148
01:35:27.380 --> 01:35:28.440
And I was like

1149
01:35:28.980 --> 01:35:31.780
and Huddl bot. I was like Yeah. We

1150
01:35:32.485 --> 01:35:42.560
I was like, I think primal is the best place for someone to start. Like, okay. Do you guys have a response to that? And they're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem. It's the best place to start start. Yeah.

1151
01:35:42.940 --> 01:35:46.240
It's like we just don't like, it works. It works really well.

1152
01:35:46.940 --> 01:35:57.844
Turns out it's really hard to build software that's beautiful and easy to use. Like, it's really, really fucking hard. It's a difficult problem to solve. Yeah. You know? So, like, again, I mean, I think,

1153
01:35:58.760 --> 01:36:03.420
again, you're taking trade offs. Right? Like and this is the reason, like, most people don't use,

1154
01:36:03.880 --> 01:36:53.685
you know, Lightning in a noncustodial way. Most people don't, you know, wanna have to figure out, like, how do Bitcoin transactions work. You know? Like, they they only do these things when they really, really need to. And that's why you see most of the adoption on a lot of this stuff from places that don't have a functioning, you know, finance system. Because if you've grown up with, you know, PayPal is even a pile of crap, but, like, it still functions. It's still bad. Yeah. It's terrible. But, like, you know, if you grew up with Venmo and PayPal and and, like, Revolut, and you're like, oh, yeah. I just make instant transactions between my bank accounts, and it's fine. It's no big deal. Like, you don't see the need. And so it's the same, you know, in in this sort of situation. It's like, if you're expecting to have a consumer grade experience with this new social media thing that people are trying to get you to use, and then you try to use it, and it's, like, 20 minutes of pain and suffering, and you still have no idea what the fuck is going on. Like, you're never gonna look at it again.

1155
01:36:54.370 --> 01:37:03.190
Or maybe it'll you know, if it's super successful, you'll bump into it years later, and you'll be like, oh, yeah. I tried this way back in the day and, like, couldn't figure anything out. Now it looks a little bit better.

1156
01:37:04.185 --> 01:37:05.224
What do you think about

1157
01:37:09.385 --> 01:37:12.764
and this is something I've wrestled with in Bitcoin land for a while,

1158
01:37:13.860 --> 01:37:17.079
but now in Nostriland as well, specifically with primal.

1159
01:37:17.619 --> 01:37:19.079
This idea of

1160
01:37:20.075 --> 01:37:21.295
mainstream adoption

1161
01:37:21.995 --> 01:37:22.495
versus

1162
01:37:22.875 --> 01:37:25.535
fuck you, only the writer dies matter,

1163
01:37:25.995 --> 01:37:28.335
which I kind of did adopt because

1164
01:37:29.350 --> 01:37:33.530
I just deleted my Twitter. Exactly. And Oscar's only ride or dies.

1165
01:37:34.469 --> 01:37:35.610
But Yeah.

1166
01:37:36.284 --> 01:37:41.505
Should Nastr only focus on the ride or dies, or should we be focused on trying to get

1167
01:37:42.125 --> 01:37:46.350
new users? Because, I mean, I think that solves it. If you agree that

1168
01:37:47.770 --> 01:37:49.390
only the right or dies matter,

1169
01:37:50.010 --> 01:37:52.430
then we don't even need primal as a client,

1170
01:37:53.415 --> 01:37:56.235
because, like, clearly, primal is trying to solve the

1171
01:37:57.175 --> 01:38:00.220
TikTok user or the LinkedIn user like you,

1172
01:38:00.940 --> 01:38:03.280
or or the or the Twitter user.

1173
01:38:04.220 --> 01:38:06.400
They're trying to solve that problem where

1174
01:38:06.860 --> 01:38:09.985
like, Milan's trying to solve that problem where, like, you're comparing it

1175
01:38:10.525 --> 01:38:13.425
to traditional social networks and bring it in.

1176
01:38:15.085 --> 01:38:16.465
I I see Pablo.

1177
01:38:16.890 --> 01:38:17.630
Yeah. Pablo,

1178
01:38:18.090 --> 01:38:25.790
you should just Fight me a good fight over here. Pablo, by the way, you're welcome to join every single civil dispatch. It doesn't matter what we're talking about. We can be talking about, like, whales.

1179
01:38:26.495 --> 01:38:35.955
You know, I I won't have a dispatch about whales, but if we hypothetically had a dispatch about whales and I only had whale experts on, you're still welcome to join.

1180
01:38:36.460 --> 01:38:39.520
But he's saying a false dichotomy, massive false dichotomy.

1181
01:38:40.140 --> 01:38:46.825
Of course, don't have to choose. I mean, it is a false dichotomy, but at the same time, I get the angle of the question, which is,

1182
01:38:48.005 --> 01:38:48.505
like,

1183
01:38:49.205 --> 01:38:54.585
is our job to try to convince the entire world that we're right and that they should come over and join us?

1184
01:38:55.030 --> 01:38:55.530
Or

1185
01:38:55.990 --> 01:39:05.475
should we just be like, nah. We're cool. We got our own thing, and we can just move on with our you know, we'll just be over here doing our thing. And I think the unfortunate fact is that,

1186
01:39:07.475 --> 01:39:10.860
they're not gonna leave us alone. Like, they're not gonna let us do what we wanna do.

1187
01:39:11.340 --> 01:39:20.800
If I thought that was the case, I would definitely be in the 2nd camp, and I'd be like, no. We're all moving to wherever it is, Madera or Costa Rica, and we're all just gonna chill together, and they're literally gonna leave us the fuck alone.

1188
01:39:21.885 --> 01:39:24.625
I would pick up and move the family immediately. But,

1189
01:39:24.925 --> 01:39:33.019
like, it's just not the world we live in. And so I think more and more, we are like, we've benefited from flying under the radar for many years here,

1190
01:39:34.039 --> 01:39:38.460
and I think that's given us enough time to build something that's effectively unstoppable, hopefully.

1191
01:39:39.245 --> 01:39:48.040
But we're in a situation now where we're gonna have to interface with a large chunk of the world if we wanna continue to, you know, be able to do the things we wanna do. And

1192
01:39:48.840 --> 01:40:02.315
to some degree, that is going to require us to, if not get everybody on board, at least get them to recognize that, like, you know, this is a reasonable thing to do and a reasonable thing to want to work on, and, you know, there's no reason to stop it.

1193
01:40:03.070 --> 01:40:08.130
And so it's not that we have to convince everybody to join and, you know, get everybody to quit TikTok and Twitter,

1194
01:40:09.390 --> 01:40:17.025
but it is, like, really, really important that we, like, know that the game we're playing and, like, know that it's not just what we wanna do that matters.

1195
01:40:17.804 --> 01:40:18.470
You know,

1196
01:40:20.230 --> 01:40:22.170
like, they can make things very, very uncomfortable.

1197
01:40:22.950 --> 01:40:28.614
They can't ban it. They can't totally stop it. They'll never be able to, but they can definitely make things uncomfortable.

1198
01:40:29.635 --> 01:40:30.775
Jeff, who is they?

1199
01:40:32.355 --> 01:40:42.790
Yeah. All of them. The people that mostly the US government. Let's be honest. Okay. Mostly the US government, the European government, and all of the international agencies that, are in their pockets.

1200
01:40:44.369 --> 01:40:45.110
I agree.

1201
01:40:48.115 --> 01:40:48.615
Like,

1202
01:40:49.315 --> 01:40:55.575
you know, they they are they benefit from all of this. Right? Like, they benefit from all the hegemony. They benefit from all of everything.

1203
01:40:56.120 --> 01:40:57.500
Are they still talking about whales?

1204
01:40:58.520 --> 01:41:00.140
Yeah. The live chat is,

1205
01:41:00.920 --> 01:41:02.460
we will now have

1206
01:41:03.000 --> 01:41:06.505
a civil dispatch folks on whales, and I think Pablo is joining for

1207
01:41:06.885 --> 01:41:20.440
it. Excellent. Walester. I mean, honestly We've got a new client. Walester is on the way. Like, if you don't care about whales, do you even care? Like, what like, I think whales like, if you talk about, like, foundational elements of society, I think whales are, like, the base

1208
01:41:21.435 --> 01:41:26.495
of all society was built on top of whale law. I mean, they are big. Yeah.

1209
01:41:27.710 --> 01:41:30.610
They are large. They are large they are large creatures.

1210
01:41:33.230 --> 01:41:37.765
I mean, the live chat is is what makes this show special. So shout out to the freaks

1211
01:41:38.304 --> 01:41:40.245
who Jonas in the live chat. By the way,

1212
01:41:41.025 --> 01:41:44.085
I think we're nearly about to wrap up, but

1213
01:41:44.510 --> 01:41:49.090
if you're watching this through Twitter or YouTube, the real live chat is at sale dispatch.com/streampoweredbyzapstream,

1214
01:41:53.185 --> 01:41:56.085
which requires a nostril account, but you can create one

1215
01:41:56.465 --> 01:41:57.285
in the browser.

1216
01:41:57.825 --> 01:42:00.325
So you don't even have to know what nostril is.

1217
01:42:01.025 --> 01:42:03.320
And it just it just fucking works.

1218
01:42:03.860 --> 01:42:05.719
Back to those disposable in pubs.

1219
01:42:06.340 --> 01:42:09.780
Yeah. Disposable in pubs. I think I think there's a weird

1220
01:42:10.955 --> 01:42:13.695
oh, oh, so I have a hard question for you, Jeff.

1221
01:42:13.995 --> 01:42:17.935
Okay. Since, honestly, like, you really failed on the hard look.

1222
01:42:18.460 --> 01:42:36.594
You sprung it on me. Okay? Yeah. You sprung it on me. I don't actually know you that well either, so it's, like, not even how am I gonna get a hard question? We have friends of friends. You know? We do have friends of friends. We're friends. Should've known better. Yeah. We're basically friend like, way closer than Kevin Bacon system or whatever. 6 Very very much though. We're one degree.

1223
01:42:37.050 --> 01:42:47.795
We're one degree friends. One degree from multiple angles. You're totally correct. Right? Like, you were seeing me, like, we're basically best friends. Will come with a very, very hard question for you. We're basically best friends.

1224
01:42:49.795 --> 01:42:51.895
I have a hard question for you. So Carnage

1225
01:42:52.195 --> 01:42:54.455
had a great post, shout out, Carnage,

1226
01:42:56.820 --> 01:42:57.880
about Noster.

1227
01:43:00.900 --> 01:43:02.440
How will people react

1228
01:43:02.775 --> 01:43:06.475
when the big mega corp start monetizing your data?

1229
01:43:09.335 --> 01:43:12.155
I think it's inevitable. Like, I think,

1230
01:43:13.720 --> 01:43:17.500
and it's weird that I'm asking you the hard question. I'm answering it, but I'm gonna answer it.

1231
01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:20.540
I think it's inevitable. Like, I think

1232
01:43:20.975 --> 01:43:24.835
the most monetizable dataset in the world is going to be

1233
01:43:25.855 --> 01:43:28.514
Nostopro's. It's gonna be signed Nostopro's

1234
01:43:28.895 --> 01:43:30.275
in the age of AI,

1235
01:43:31.020 --> 01:43:32.080
Like, cryptographically

1236
01:43:32.700 --> 01:43:33.200
verifiable

1237
01:43:35.820 --> 01:43:47.505
proofs of of of what you think are gonna be the most monetizable things in the world. And it's broadcast to the world and you have easy access to it. It's not closed behind walled gardens of x or LinkedIn or

1238
01:43:47.870 --> 01:43:51.489
Reddit. Every single centralized platform except for TikTok

1239
01:43:51.870 --> 01:44:00.985
right now is closing their doors and making sure that people don't have access to it. And TikTok has the additional benefit that the CCP is trying to boost adoption.

1240
01:44:01.525 --> 01:44:02.025
Right.

1241
01:44:03.525 --> 01:44:05.110
How do you think about that? Like,

1242
01:44:06.150 --> 01:44:08.010
what what is your opinion on

1243
01:44:09.030 --> 01:44:09.770
Mega Corp's

1244
01:44:10.310 --> 01:44:10.810
monetizing

1245
01:44:12.869 --> 01:44:13.929
Noster data?

1246
01:44:15.145 --> 01:44:22.605
Well, mega corps are gonna mega corp. Like, they're definitely gonna do it 100%. Like, it's not even gonna that's not even a question on my mind. They probably I mean,

1247
01:44:23.170 --> 01:44:33.215
we're still small, so that would be the only reason I would say they probably haven't gotten there yet. It's just because they're like, oh, there's this thing we should try to mess with, you know, tomorrow or next week or whatever, But no one's gotten there yet. But,

1248
01:44:34.155 --> 01:44:39.455
I mean, it's gonna happen. And and I think, like, that's a good reason for everybody on Noster now to be,

1249
01:44:39.995 --> 01:44:40.575
you know,

1250
01:44:41.920 --> 01:44:45.860
thinking a little bit about, you know, what is it that they're putting out there in the world,

1251
01:44:46.880 --> 01:44:48.435
and and how are they doing it?

1252
01:44:49.235 --> 01:44:59.989
You know, back to our earlier thing, like, you know, you only have privacy if you keep privacy, and you don't just immediately, you know, live completely in in the, you know, public sphere. So

1253
01:45:00.610 --> 01:45:05.510
I guess it doesn't really necessarily bother me. I guess the only thing that really bothers me about it is that, like,

1254
01:45:07.025 --> 01:45:17.210
you know, those large platforms and those mega corps are mega corps because they are tollbooths. You know, all the like, the whole of web 2 was literally built on this idea that, you know, we're gonna aggregate audiences,

1255
01:45:17.590 --> 01:45:24.650
then we're gonna build a choke point, and we're gonna just monetize like crazy on that choke point. And we're the only ones that are you know, have that availability.

1256
01:45:26.995 --> 01:45:34.215
And I feel like this is another one of those situations where we're providing them with tons and tons of data that they can then aggregate,

1257
01:45:34.590 --> 01:45:40.450
And then they're gonna build a, tollboob stop. They're gonna build a checkpoint. They're gonna build a choke point again to say, okay.

1258
01:45:40.990 --> 01:45:46.185
You know, you advertisers, you wanna be able to advertise to these people. Well, we figured out how to get to them.

1259
01:45:46.565 --> 01:46:06.060
We've built these special bots that operate on Nostra and, you know, x, y, and z. I guess the one thing that I I have hope on that whole situation there is is that we still have total control to build whatever we want on Nostr. And so it's not like Google where you wanna get the benefit, you're gonna have to look at the ads, or Facebook where they're just gonna mix it in, you know, to all the stuff with your friends.

1260
01:46:07.100 --> 01:46:15.440
You have total freedom to switch to whatever client you want. You have total freedom to use whatever tool you want. Your identity and your data can go wherever you would like it to go.

1261
01:46:16.575 --> 01:46:22.835
But that data, if you leave it public, is definitely gonna be used in the public sphere as publicly open data.

1262
01:46:24.369 --> 01:46:25.750
Yeah. Damn right. Like,

1263
01:46:26.610 --> 01:46:29.670
that's the argument. A 100 percent the argument. The argument is,

1264
01:46:30.130 --> 01:46:35.435
is you're going to monetize me regardless. So I'm just going to allow anyone to monetize me.

1265
01:46:36.055 --> 01:46:38.795
And well, and also. You have all the data.

1266
01:46:39.095 --> 01:46:39.995
Yeah. It's cryptographically

1267
01:46:40.535 --> 01:46:42.315
signed monetize at will.

1268
01:46:42.800 --> 01:46:43.300
Yes.

1269
01:46:43.840 --> 01:46:51.485
Monetize at will. But also, like, I don't have to also look at whatever you're doing. I don't have to suffer, you know, using your shitty products with all of your ads

1270
01:46:52.605 --> 01:46:57.824
because, you know, you've taken this data. And I think, honestly, like, that probably sort of breaks the tollbooth

1271
01:46:58.125 --> 01:47:01.025
model because if they don't have you captured there,

1272
01:47:01.570 --> 01:47:05.350
then them having information about, you know, you through your posts

1273
01:47:05.730 --> 01:47:10.345
doesn't really make it easy for them to, you know, make a case to their,

1274
01:47:11.125 --> 01:47:24.059
to their customers that, like, hey. You you wanna advertise with us because, you know, we can advertise to these people. No. You actually can't. Like, they can just just as easily leave and never see your posts. Yeah. Like, some random schmuck in Thailand can have the same exact data.

1275
01:47:24.705 --> 01:47:26.245
Exactly. Yeah. Right. Exactly. You're

1276
01:47:27.345 --> 01:47:28.325
missing the point.

1277
01:47:28.865 --> 01:47:29.605
The point

1278
01:47:29.905 --> 01:47:30.645
oh, come on.

1279
01:47:31.265 --> 01:47:38.860
Harry's getting Good. I like this. Why why is Harry getting involved? You're missing the point. So the Okay. The other component is that it's not just about

1280
01:47:39.465 --> 01:47:47.085
the social graph user map data. It's the combination of the social graph user map data with the algorithm in order to reserve

1281
01:47:47.465 --> 01:47:48.285
the same

1282
01:47:49.000 --> 01:47:52.620
user base back to itself. Right? You you have to human centipede

1283
01:47:53.400 --> 01:47:57.900
the social platform in order to monetize the data properly because,

1284
01:47:58.345 --> 01:48:03.325
really, it's not just the ass where the data comes out. You gotta give it back to the mouth

1285
01:48:03.785 --> 01:48:05.725
where you actually monetize it again.

1286
01:48:07.510 --> 01:48:31.200
Yes. But the only way to monetize that data is if you, as a user, are forced to go through their platform for one reason or another. Right? Like, you've got I mean, in in Google's case, like, you wanna use Google search, you wanna use Google Maps, you wanna use Gmail, you're gonna see their ads. You wanna use you wanna see what your grandma is saying, you're gonna go to Facebook. You wanna like, you know what I mean? Like, the only reason they've got the captive audience to show that stuff back to and force feed us is because

1287
01:48:31.580 --> 01:48:32.400
we're stuck.

1288
01:48:32.780 --> 01:48:36.495
Exactly. It Yeah. And so I think that's the piece that Nostra breaks apart.

1289
01:48:36.875 --> 01:48:41.455
To totally totally agree. But I think, like, the the critical piece is, like, the the,

1290
01:48:42.610 --> 01:48:49.190
the product is fused into the monetization mechanism. It's not just the user data that informs the monetization.

1291
01:48:49.865 --> 01:48:51.805
It's the it's the it's the decoupling.

1292
01:48:52.585 --> 01:48:53.645
Right. Right.

1293
01:48:54.265 --> 01:48:58.850
I think we're saying the same thing. I agree with you. Okay. Excellent. I'm glad we had this talk.

1294
01:49:00.210 --> 01:49:00.710
Sorry.

1295
01:49:01.570 --> 01:49:02.630
No. That was great.

1296
01:49:02.930 --> 01:49:03.750
Love it.

1297
01:49:04.290 --> 01:49:11.405
Let the record show that I I flipped my ear cup and then rested against his ear so that he could hear your response.

1298
01:49:12.185 --> 01:49:13.005
Very good.

1299
01:49:13.500 --> 01:49:18.160
I have one more question for you, Jeff, and then we'll wrap it, and we'll ask you for your final thoughts.

1300
01:49:19.500 --> 01:49:21.120
Pablo said in the comments,

1301
01:49:22.255 --> 01:49:28.114
you're not asking the hard questions. You didn't ask him about Fetti. Do you know what that means? Do you wanna ask me?

1302
01:49:30.760 --> 01:49:32.540
Tell me about what you think about Fetty.

1303
01:49:33.720 --> 01:49:39.340
What I I mean, that's Oh, okay. Let I don't see. This isn't really hard okay. Maybe this is a hard question for you.

1304
01:49:41.225 --> 01:49:43.385
Tell me what you think about ECASH. Is it,

1305
01:49:44.265 --> 01:49:46.205
both Fedi and Cashew? Are they

1306
01:49:47.225 --> 01:49:50.780
useful things that people should be spending time on, or do you think they're distractions?

1307
01:49:51.320 --> 01:49:53.020
I think they're incredibly useful.

1308
01:49:54.360 --> 01:50:08.510
Okay. I don't know a problem with that one. You have nothing else? Do you not like do you not like FETI for some reason? No. I mean, I'm we're first of all, 1031 is investors in FETI. In regards to issuing money and So So I thought it had something to do with that.

1309
01:50:10.090 --> 01:50:14.830
Well, I mean Are you gonna, you know, you're gonna wait for Pablo to tell you what you saw?

1310
01:50:15.775 --> 01:50:23.155
Oh, like, them just being fucked in the sense. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I get it. What do you think is gonna happen to Fetti? Like, do you think they're gonna be able to find a way around this Okay.

1311
01:50:23.659 --> 01:50:25.679
Current situation? I'm not gonna speculate

1312
01:50:26.139 --> 01:50:27.760
about portfolio companies,

1313
01:50:28.300 --> 01:50:30.639
how they handle this regulatory environment

1314
01:50:31.260 --> 01:50:32.080
on air.

1315
01:50:33.415 --> 01:50:34.795
That would be dumb.

1316
01:50:35.415 --> 01:50:39.835
That would be a stupid thing to do. Yes. I will say

1317
01:50:41.600 --> 01:50:42.580
that I think

1318
01:50:43.600 --> 01:50:45.940
Charming e cash is good for the world.

1319
01:50:47.040 --> 01:50:51.775
I think Bitcoin powered Charming e cash is a powerful force for good

1320
01:50:52.475 --> 01:50:53.295
in the world.

1321
01:50:53.755 --> 01:50:54.415
I agree.

1322
01:50:55.035 --> 01:50:58.335
And I will say that from the very early days

1323
01:50:58.640 --> 01:51:00.660
before FETI existed as a company,

1324
01:51:01.040 --> 01:51:03.220
before immunity existed as a company,

1325
01:51:03.760 --> 01:51:05.940
I thought that was the case. I think

1326
01:51:06.594 --> 01:51:08.614
our civil dispatch with Eric Sirion,

1327
01:51:10.435 --> 01:51:14.135
and I say our as in me, my civil dispatch

1328
01:51:14.810 --> 01:51:15.710
with Eric Syrian

1329
01:51:16.330 --> 01:51:17.230
was a

1330
01:51:17.610 --> 01:51:20.670
pivotal point in terms of the e cash development.

1331
01:51:21.690 --> 01:51:23.470
And I think

1332
01:51:24.105 --> 01:51:30.925
it's fucking awesome. Like, it's just great. And I think it's really cool how you can, like, link shit to end pubs,

1333
01:51:31.389 --> 01:51:39.965
and you can do, like, native shit. There's, like, a bunch of like, I think the closest thing to, like, native Nostril payments is e cash. Yes. Yep.

1334
01:51:40.425 --> 01:51:43.324
The problem is obviously, like, who is the custodians?

1335
01:51:43.784 --> 01:51:48.770
Like, who is, like, handling that shit? I think that's where FEDAMET is really interesting.

1336
01:51:49.309 --> 01:51:53.329
Mhmm. I will say 1031 is given no strings attached grants

1337
01:51:53.789 --> 01:51:55.650
to both FEDAMET and Cali

1338
01:51:57.965 --> 01:51:59.825
for Fedimant and Cashew,

1339
01:52:01.245 --> 01:52:08.130
where they were in investments. Like, we just took a portion of management fees, and and and we gave grants towards them because

1340
01:52:08.910 --> 01:52:10.610
we think it's better for all of us.

1341
01:52:10.910 --> 01:52:14.290
And, like, it it's not it's not just altruism

1342
01:52:14.670 --> 01:52:15.170
reason.

1343
01:52:15.745 --> 01:52:21.125
We we we think it benefits the whole ecosystem. We think it benefits our, quote, unquote, investments.

1344
01:52:21.985 --> 01:52:24.005
And so when I say to Saylor,

1345
01:52:24.520 --> 01:52:26.780
like, why aren't you supporting open source contributors?

1346
01:52:27.080 --> 01:52:28.219
I can also say,

1347
01:52:29.239 --> 01:52:31.020
I do for my pocket.

1348
01:52:31.645 --> 01:52:35.185
Right? Like, I actually practice what I preach. I'm not just,

1349
01:52:36.284 --> 01:52:41.264
you know, just some random ass fucking board member that makes no money that's just, like, preaching,

1350
01:52:41.630 --> 01:52:44.850
quote, unquote communism or whatever he wants to pretend it is.

1351
01:52:47.550 --> 01:52:51.555
So that's that's where we are right now. But I would say that, like, e cash

1352
01:52:53.215 --> 01:52:53.955
is massive.

1353
01:52:54.335 --> 01:52:56.915
Like, anyone who's sleeping on e cash is

1354
01:52:58.950 --> 01:53:07.290
they're missing out. They're missing out. Like, the development that Cali is doing, the development that the Federman open source contributors are doing is is fucking massive.

1355
01:53:07.844 --> 01:53:11.705
The the aspect of of, like, creating the federated e cache

1356
01:53:12.085 --> 01:53:14.105
is actually really fucking complicated.

1357
01:53:14.780 --> 01:53:21.280
Yes. People don't I don't think people realize how complicated it is, which is one of the reasons why Casio has been able to develop

1358
01:53:21.660 --> 01:53:22.400
so quickly.

1359
01:53:23.615 --> 01:53:26.595
Yep. But it's awesome because we do need it right now.

1360
01:53:27.055 --> 01:53:29.955
But I I think I think, really, the future is

1361
01:53:32.840 --> 01:53:35.900
Federated ECASH. I think the I think the future is

1362
01:53:36.520 --> 01:53:37.020
multisig,

1363
01:53:39.105 --> 01:53:41.205
you know, sovereign banks, essentially,

1364
01:53:42.385 --> 01:53:46.885
that that cannot see what their account holders are doing.

1365
01:53:47.290 --> 01:54:01.614
And that is that is what Federman is in, like that's, like, suit lingo for what Federman is. It's like Well, but it's also exactly what Cashew is. Right? Like, I mean, just add a multisig, and it's I mean, it's not as quite the same as the federation, but it's, you know, it is similar.

1366
01:54:02.474 --> 01:54:05.054
And they are banks. And, like, that's the thing. It's,

1367
01:54:05.860 --> 01:54:06.180
this is

1368
01:54:07.380 --> 01:54:15.625
I think the scariest thing right now is that, yes, I agree with all those statements that it's fucking amazing and it's the future and all that, and I think it's also the most at risk

1369
01:54:15.925 --> 01:54:19.145
part of the ecosystem at the moment. And also, like,

1370
01:54:20.085 --> 01:54:22.825
God bless the people that run them because

1371
01:54:24.140 --> 01:54:26.540
it takes it's like even if you are

1372
01:54:27.340 --> 01:54:32.685
if if you're everyone always focuses on, like, the bad actors. Right? They're like,

1373
01:54:33.465 --> 01:54:38.605
oh, like, if you're a bad actor, you can just rug, a cashew man. Well, what about the good actors?

1374
01:54:39.310 --> 01:54:42.370
Like, the good actors have massive mental burden,

1375
01:54:42.750 --> 01:54:43.250
massive

1376
01:54:43.630 --> 01:54:44.610
economic burden.

1377
01:54:45.070 --> 01:54:47.810
Like, there's a real burden on these people.

1378
01:54:49.135 --> 01:54:52.675
If it's a single sig, if it's a cashew fucking mint,

1379
01:54:53.535 --> 01:54:54.515
fucking substantial.

1380
01:54:54.895 --> 01:54:56.035
Like, significant.

1381
01:54:56.910 --> 01:55:05.410
If it's a sediment, still. It's still substantial. But it's it's a little bit less so because maybe it's a 3 or 5, maybe it's a 2 or 3, whatever it is.

1382
01:55:06.415 --> 01:55:16.020
It's substantial. And, like, people just assume, like, other people will operate that for them. And I would say to you, be the change you wanna see in the world. Like, it's fucking ridiculous.

1383
01:55:17.120 --> 01:55:19.060
Yep. But I do think

1384
01:55:20.400 --> 01:55:25.595
that's probably where we're heading. You don't have to it doesn't require protocol changes, which is key.

1385
01:55:26.295 --> 01:55:30.155
Yep. I've been in Bitcoin long enough where I just don't assume protocol changes.

1386
01:55:31.020 --> 01:55:37.555
People think, like, oh, like, oh, oh, that's the guy that supports open source contributors. Like, he just, like, believes in soft forks left and right.

1387
01:55:38.115 --> 01:55:41.735
He's like, no. No. I don't. I know there's a lot of work

1388
01:55:42.195 --> 01:55:46.295
that doesn't involve soft forks. I actually do not support soft forks.

1389
01:55:46.810 --> 01:55:50.430
For most situations, I think we should be slow and steady about it.

1390
01:55:52.730 --> 01:56:07.750
But yeah. There's a whole lot we can do without a soft fork with with e cash. So Yeah. Man but but it's a shit ton of liability for the people that run that shit. So, like, just have in several directions. Like, it's not just the liability of, like, don't mess it up and lose people's money. It's, like, a bunch of other liability that,

1391
01:56:09.350 --> 01:56:11.210
we're seeing the sharp end of recently.

1392
01:56:11.750 --> 01:56:12.250
Exactly.

1393
01:56:13.105 --> 01:56:13.605
Exactly.

1394
01:56:14.145 --> 01:56:14.545
Yeah.

1395
01:56:15.665 --> 01:56:21.330
But I I think Fedimint are are particularly cool because you have this, like, multisig element to it.

1396
01:56:21.810 --> 01:56:26.150
Right? Like, it's not just a single person. And it shouldn't be it it really

1397
01:56:26.530 --> 01:56:29.430
like, if we can avoid it, it shouldn't be a single person.

1398
01:56:30.085 --> 01:56:31.945
And I I don't think Cali

1399
01:56:32.325 --> 01:56:37.625
necessarily disagrees with that. No. I think he just realizes that it's way easier to develop

1400
01:56:38.485 --> 01:56:41.190
if you just exclude that variable.

1401
01:56:41.890 --> 01:56:42.210
Yes.

1402
01:56:42.770 --> 01:56:48.550
And he just push it he just pushes forward. And I respect the fact that he pushes forward. And I would say, like,

1403
01:56:50.025 --> 01:56:51.645
all it takes is, like

1404
01:56:52.025 --> 01:56:52.905
we could have

1405
01:56:54.585 --> 01:56:56.605
we could fund a 1,000 developers

1406
01:56:56.920 --> 01:57:00.860
through open sets. We I mean, maybe maybe that's bearish.

1407
01:57:01.239 --> 01:57:04.380
Maybe we fund 10,000 developers through open sets.

1408
01:57:04.745 --> 01:57:08.685
But all it takes is, like, 5 or 6 people. Like, it's 5 or 6

1409
01:57:09.545 --> 01:57:10.685
of those people

1410
01:57:11.705 --> 01:57:13.645
that actually, like, get shit done

1411
01:57:13.980 --> 01:57:15.920
and, like, push through changes

1412
01:57:16.700 --> 01:57:22.480
that matter to the world. And if and if those 5 or 6 people get funded and supported and

1413
01:57:23.204 --> 01:57:24.585
and and have backing,

1414
01:57:25.125 --> 01:57:29.304
then then our grandchildren live in a way, way, way better world

1415
01:57:29.764 --> 01:57:33.370
than we currently live in today. And and that's why I'm focused sides.

1416
01:57:34.550 --> 01:57:35.770
Yeah. Yep.

1417
01:57:36.550 --> 01:57:37.610
Makes total sense.

1418
01:57:38.230 --> 01:57:45.215
Damn right, Jeff. You you're horrible at asking hard questions. I know. I'll work hard. You've been a great guest. You've been a great guest.

1419
01:57:45.675 --> 01:57:48.015
Jeff, do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

1420
01:57:49.480 --> 01:57:52.599
I'm really interested to hear the whale episode with Pablo.

1421
01:57:53.000 --> 01:58:00.955
I mean, he has told me in private, maybe I shouldn't dox this, but he's told me he knows quite a few whale calls. So make sure to ask him about that when he gets on, you know, gets on the call.

1422
01:58:03.015 --> 01:58:04.795
No. Really, like, actual final thoughts.

1423
01:58:05.175 --> 01:58:06.900
Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any new contributors

1424
01:58:07.440 --> 01:58:12.179
or something to all the amazing open source projects you're working on? Like, what do you mean? Yes, absolutely.

1425
01:58:12.880 --> 01:58:21.454
Like one, I've been a horrible absentee landlord on Nastr. Howe. I think that is, like we talked about before, you know, great. It gets a lot of traffic.

1426
01:58:22.610 --> 01:58:28.665
It is totally meant to help, you know, new people to Nostra just, you know, do it easier and better.

1427
01:58:29.225 --> 01:58:39.880
I wanna have it in a ton of languages. I think it's in, like, 8 or 9 languages already, but I'd love more, and I would also just love more content there. So you're nontechnical and you're looking for a place to help, like, please, that's a great place.

1428
01:58:41.220 --> 01:58:46.405
I think and as well, like, you know, anybody that is wanting to get into it with the on the DM stuff,

1429
01:58:47.025 --> 01:58:55.210
I'm, like, actively looking for people to come and poke holes in this. Because, again, like I said, I hope this is used in really high stakes environments eventually,

1430
01:58:55.750 --> 01:59:08.405
and I want it to be super, super secure and, you know, be something that we can set one time and be like, alright. We we figured this out. We're done with this section. We can move on to the next thing. We don't have to think about DMs anymore, at least for a while.

1431
01:59:11.010 --> 01:59:12.949
Well, Jeff, thank you for joining us.

1432
01:59:17.945 --> 01:59:24.400
You're welcome. Say something? Well, I was about to say something, and I looked over, and I was like, nustr.how is in rust? No. It's not written in rust.

1433
01:59:25.840 --> 01:59:32.580
I wanna I just wanted to thank the freaks for joining us in the live chat. As always Yeah. All the links are still dispatch.com.

1434
01:59:34.075 --> 01:59:37.455
But but the live chat freaks are the ones who make the show run.

1435
01:59:37.995 --> 01:59:40.255
You guys are the hosts alongside me.

1436
01:59:41.409 --> 01:59:46.150
And if you listen to any civil dispatch, you'd realize that is truly the case,

1437
01:59:46.849 --> 01:59:49.750
because I read every single post you post,

1438
01:59:50.215 --> 01:59:52.315
and I don't moderate any of this shit.

1439
01:59:52.935 --> 01:59:54.075
So thank you.

1440
01:59:55.495 --> 01:59:59.595
I also wanted to obviously thank the freaks who support the show with sats,

1441
02:00:00.110 --> 02:00:00.850
with Bitcoin.

1442
02:00:02.510 --> 02:00:04.290
We don't have any sponsors.

1443
02:00:04.670 --> 02:00:05.170
So

1444
02:00:06.030 --> 02:00:07.810
unlike other Bitcoin shows,

1445
02:00:08.265 --> 02:00:09.725
I don't just, like, randomly

1446
02:00:10.185 --> 02:00:15.885
support what whoever pays me the most money. I, like, ride or die with them till the end,

1447
02:00:17.680 --> 02:00:19.300
to to who I agree with,

1448
02:00:19.680 --> 02:00:25.895
to who I think is is is the best product. And I might be fucking wrong, but at least I fucking

1449
02:00:26.275 --> 02:00:30.375
go with the with the guys that I think are providing a solid product.

1450
02:00:31.475 --> 02:00:44.885
Not on Dispatch, but on our HR, we do have sponsors. But I I I try and focus on the good sponsors. But the point is dispatch has no sponsors. Thank you for supporting us with Bitcoin. We have natgas immersion with a 100 k sats,

1451
02:00:46.385 --> 02:00:47.764
and we have at gunnerson.

1452
02:00:49.560 --> 02:01:01.225
Our Gunson what is it? It's it's coming around. It's coming around. Let's wait. Let's wait for it to come around. Where is it coming? We have Natgas Oh, spinning around at the bottom. Immersion. Yeah. With a 100 k sats, and we have at Gunson

1453
02:01:01.685 --> 02:01:02.665
with a 121,000

1454
02:01:03.605 --> 02:01:06.100
sats. Thank you, Freaks, for supporting us.

1455
02:01:07.220 --> 02:01:08.680
But I know sats are scarce.

1456
02:01:09.540 --> 02:01:11.320
If you can't support us that way,

1457
02:01:12.020 --> 02:01:13.480
share with friends and family.

1458
02:01:14.305 --> 02:01:20.085
We're on every podcast app. We're on YouTube until we get banned. We're on Twitter until we get banned.

1459
02:01:21.265 --> 02:01:25.670
I should probably just get rid of the Twitter, and, like, no one really engages with it.

1460
02:01:26.530 --> 02:01:34.605
But I deleted my personal Twitter account. I felt like it was enough. But, maybe, I'll delete that Twitter account. But we're on YouTube. You just search YouTube.

1461
02:01:34.985 --> 02:01:36.525
Keep in mind, YouTube,

1462
02:01:38.185 --> 02:01:39.885
does hit me with copyright violations

1463
02:01:41.239 --> 02:01:41.980
very often.

1464
02:01:42.679 --> 02:01:44.460
So you will not get the video,

1465
02:01:45.000 --> 02:01:47.020
the music video that's about to play.

1466
02:01:47.639 --> 02:01:49.500
Jeff, thank you for joining.

1467
02:01:50.045 --> 02:01:55.905
Thank you so much. It's been great fun. Did you enjoy it? Was it fun? I did. I did. I can't wait for your next round. That's awesome.

1468
02:01:56.525 --> 02:02:03.110
We're gonna be talking about tomorrow at 1790 UTC. We're gonna be talking about Bitcoin design with the Bitcoin Design Foundation.

1469
02:02:03.810 --> 02:02:06.230
They're trying to get their legs off their

1470
02:02:07.425 --> 02:02:11.045
they're they're they're trying to make shit happen over there in in Bitcoin design,

1471
02:02:12.385 --> 02:02:22.020
which is hard. It's hard enough in open source development. It's even harder in design. No one no one really gives a shit about design. We're gonna make it sexy. We're gonna make it exciting. We're gonna have a fun conversation.

1472
02:02:22.560 --> 02:02:24.660
Join us tomorrow at 1700 UTC.

1473
02:02:25.040 --> 02:02:27.915
And then I have Matt from start 9,

1474
02:02:28.615 --> 02:02:32.315
start OS. We're gonna be talking about start OS, cell phone, sting, all that stuff

1475
02:02:32.855 --> 02:02:33.595
at 1700

1476
02:02:33.975 --> 02:02:34.475
UTC

1477
02:02:35.255 --> 02:02:36.155
next Friday.

1478
02:02:36.880 --> 02:02:39.619
And I'm gonna be traveling, visiting my grandma,

1479
02:02:40.560 --> 02:02:42.020
my son's great grandmother,

1480
02:02:42.880 --> 02:02:44.820
and we're gonna have a fun time. Jeff.

1481
02:02:45.325 --> 02:02:51.505
Amazing. Thank you. I appreciate you. You're welcome, man. Thank you for all you do. Keep pushing. Appreciate you. Peace.

1482
02:02:52.125 --> 02:02:52.785
See you.

1483
02:03:29.389 --> 02:03:31.090
Ten soldiers and Nixon

1484
02:03:31.469 --> 02:03:31.969
current,

1485
02:03:32.670 --> 02:03:32.985
we're

1486
02:07:50.005 --> 02:07:50.985
Love you, freaks.

1487
02:07:51.925 --> 02:07:54.665
That was Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.

1488
02:07:55.040 --> 02:07:55.780
At Wembley

1489
02:07:56.480 --> 02:07:57.219
in London

1490
02:07:57.600 --> 02:07:58.100
1974.

1491
02:07:59.679 --> 02:08:00.420
Pretty crazy.

1492
02:08:02.320 --> 02:08:02.820
Well,

1493
02:08:03.365 --> 02:08:05.225
time capsule into the past.

1494
02:08:06.645 --> 02:08:09.385
I'll see you freaks tomorrow. 1700 UTC.

1495
02:08:12.250 --> 02:08:15.070
For you American freaks, that's 1 PM EST,

1496
02:08:16.650 --> 02:08:17.389
noon CST.

1497
02:08:18.570 --> 02:08:19.869
It'll be a fun time.

1498
02:08:20.215 --> 02:08:22.715
Jeff is fucking awesome. I hope you enjoyed it,

1499
02:08:23.495 --> 02:08:23.975
and,

1500
02:08:24.535 --> 02:08:26.635
keep pushing forward. Stay on for success.