CD130: LNBITS, BITCOIN, AND NOSTR WITH BEN ARC

Transcript

WEBVTT

NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 5/1/2024 9:24:43 PM
Duration: 8637.056
Channels: 1

1
00:00:04.319 --> 00:00:05.220
Store potentially.

2
00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:06.420
So realistically,

3
00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:16.755
the bar for the Fed making a move either way is pretty high, and and the bar for the Fed to hike here is pretty high as opposed to them staying put. But since they executed

4
00:00:17.369 --> 00:00:28.045
sort of transitory 2.0 late last year when they returned to this wishful thinking that inflation is moving down towards their target. I think they're now realizing that in reality,

5
00:00:28.505 --> 00:00:34.364
the r star for this economy, sort of that neutral rate that is neither overly stimulative nor deflationary

6
00:00:34.825 --> 00:00:36.030
is actually higher

7
00:00:36.410 --> 00:00:43.470
than something with a 2 handle on it, and possibly has a 3 handle on it. And so I think they're kind of moving towards that realization. But, ironically,

8
00:00:43.930 --> 00:01:04.975
for them to be able to cut, they need to be adamant about Right. Not cutting. And that's just not something they seem to be able to Are you surprised there's not more volatility in the market given that we're now at a point it used to be that we were on we were all either on one path or the other. We thought they were either gonna raise rates at at a certain point, and then there was another point where we thought they were gonna be cutting rates. Now,

9
00:01:05.915 --> 00:01:17.430
like you just said, we don't even know. Well, they don't even know. That's the reality of it. Right? They were so adamant about the fact that they were gonna cut. We were looking at the data and saying, look, they've just taken all fixed income returns from 2024 and pulled them into 2023,

10
00:01:17.965 --> 00:01:26.385
and that inflation is gonna be stickier. And that's what we're seeing, but but this entire sort of journey has shown us that they don't really know what they're going to do. And in terms of volatility,

11
00:01:27.100 --> 00:01:50.970
the equity market, I think, have tried to look past that somewhat. These rate expectations, although they're certainly, to some extent, baked into valuations. But I think they're looking past that and looking into earnings, which are continuing to be the bond market has set plenty of volatility. Right? We're seeing significant moves. Although, I would point out that the volatility we're seeing in the bond market is very much on par with the vol levels we saw pre 2,000. Absolutely.

12
00:02:23.625 --> 00:02:24.525
Happy Bitcoin

13
00:02:24.825 --> 00:02:25.325
Wednesday,

14
00:02:25.625 --> 00:02:26.125
freaks.

15
00:02:26.825 --> 00:02:27.725
It's your host,

16
00:02:28.505 --> 00:02:30.765
Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch,

17
00:02:31.290 --> 00:02:32.030
the interactive

18
00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:36.670
live show focused on actual Bitcoin and Freedom Tech

19
00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:37.870
discussion.

20
00:02:39.885 --> 00:02:41.345
I hope you guys have enjoyed,

21
00:02:41.885 --> 00:02:48.145
this monster week of dispatches. We had a great dispatch on Monday with Carlos. We had a great dispatch yesterday with Kieran.

22
00:02:48.830 --> 00:02:51.010
If you're listening later in the podcast feed,

23
00:02:52.350 --> 00:02:58.635
feel free to take your time catching up. I I we ship as we feel here at dispatch. We don't,

24
00:02:59.254 --> 00:03:01.754
you know, stick to a particular schedule.

25
00:03:02.375 --> 00:03:12.720
Probably, we'll slow down the pace a little bit next week. Maybe I won't. Maybe I will. Not sure yet. But, anyway, guys, we have a great conversation today that's completely unrelated to our intro clip,

26
00:03:13.100 --> 00:03:14.320
but I have a feeling

27
00:03:14.975 --> 00:03:18.835
some of the things some of the conversations coming out of Suitland over on CNBC

28
00:03:19.695 --> 00:03:20.675
are gonna age

29
00:03:23.040 --> 00:03:34.215
in a in a quite crazy fashion as the years go on, and it'll be a great time capsule going forward. But we have a great conversation lined up today. We have a great guest. We have Ben Arc, prolific Bitcoin and Nasr developer,

30
00:03:35.555 --> 00:03:39.095
maintainer and founder of the Ellen Bits open source project.

31
00:03:39.490 --> 00:03:40.870
How is it going bad?

32
00:03:41.570 --> 00:03:44.150
Yeah. Very good. It was an interesting clip.

33
00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:47.110
Yeah. I think even though

34
00:03:48.405 --> 00:04:00.250
it's taken them a while to clock in onto to clock in onto Bitcoin and its value proposition, I do think there is a sentiment for not trusting whose hand is on the money printer and the limited hands which are on the money printer. So

35
00:04:00.630 --> 00:04:03.050
it's good that that they raise questions around that,

36
00:04:03.510 --> 00:04:04.330
and on inflation.

37
00:04:05.315 --> 00:04:07.095
Yeah. So today is like,

38
00:04:08.754 --> 00:04:14.614
I try not to pay attention to a lot of the shit, but today, like, I guess the Fed has some kind of announcement in 2 hours.

39
00:04:15.490 --> 00:04:30.705
Yeah. So, like, at the tail end of our show. So that's what all the global market participants are all speculating on what a bunch of suits in a room are gonna come to a decision to, and, obviously, Bitcoin fixes that. It's kind of ridiculous how much the global economy hinges on

40
00:04:31.710 --> 00:04:32.449
their opinions

41
00:04:32.750 --> 00:04:34.530
and how they want to proceed.

42
00:04:35.710 --> 00:04:38.449
Yeah. It's all controlled. The I think Bitcoin,

43
00:04:38.824 --> 00:04:40.525
the what it's most under,

44
00:04:41.544 --> 00:04:43.965
underestimated and and talked about property is

45
00:04:44.345 --> 00:04:45.005
is apolitical,

46
00:04:46.590 --> 00:04:49.009
That's apolitical for an open source money.

47
00:04:49.470 --> 00:04:53.090
And, as as as when you think about the US petrodollar and,

48
00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:55.009
world reserve currencies,

49
00:04:55.745 --> 00:05:03.765
I've noticed that they've certainly ramped up the the attack on Bitcoin, I would say, which we've we've been seeing a lot of over the past week or so. And

50
00:05:04.660 --> 00:05:07.560
they're they're terrified of it as a as a as a potential

51
00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:20.180
option for people to opt out of the financial system into, and, they wanna stagger its growth. So I really feel post halving, this is this is when the gloves come off, and this is when the actual fight happens.

52
00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:24.440
Before, it was just, you know, some sparring partners with some shit coins or

53
00:05:25.300 --> 00:05:32.085
some malicious forks or what have you. But now, yeah, the gloves are actually coming off, and this is where we need to get our hands dirty and fight the bastards.

54
00:05:32.865 --> 00:05:44.539
It really feels like that, doesn't it? Yeah. Certainly. I think what was happening with the SEC, because we're waiting for such a long time for the ETF to get approved, and it was kinda got kinda got to the point where there was no more excuses.

55
00:05:45.025 --> 00:05:55.740
And I kinda feel that in the background, they had this strategy because they knew as soon as, you know, the the SEC approved these ETFs that all these Wall Street pricks that they they wanna get in Bitcoin. They wanna be involved in Bitcoin.

56
00:05:56.440 --> 00:06:01.260
And now they have that mechanism to do that. All this liquidity is gonna flush flood into our our little pond.

57
00:06:02.795 --> 00:06:11.295
And, you know, it's it's too big to regulate. So well, maybe not too big to regulate. But the the the next strategy now is to just try and control Bitcoin,

58
00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:17.300
and try and, limit the contagion of Bitcoin as, freedoms freedom,

59
00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:18.180
technology.

60
00:06:18.865 --> 00:06:26.800
And and that's what they're focusing on, particularly with their attacks on things like medium of exchange and but that's which is something we'll probably end up talking about because that's the area in which

61
00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.139
I and a couple of others work in.

62
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.620
Yeah. I mean, we have a lot to chat about.

63
00:06:32.800 --> 00:06:37.595
I guess well, first of all, shout out to all the freaks who join us in the live chat.

64
00:06:38.855 --> 00:06:41.755
Easiest way to access it is by going to citadel dispatch.com/stream.

65
00:06:43.099 --> 00:06:46.879
It's powered by Zap dot stream, which we talked all about yesterday with Kieran.

66
00:06:47.740 --> 00:06:53.225
For some reason, it seems your Zaps aren't showing up. I I do I have received a couple zaps already.

67
00:06:55.365 --> 00:07:01.560
They have arrived in my wallet, so don't don't worry. The sats were not lost. I assume Kieran broke something.

68
00:07:02.420 --> 00:07:04.280
Hopefully, Kieran will fix it.

69
00:07:04.660 --> 00:07:07.880
So amazing man. Yeah. I'm being I'm afraid to ping him.

70
00:07:08.335 --> 00:07:12.514
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's you know, it worked during Kieran's stream. So

71
00:07:12.815 --> 00:07:19.590
he's like, he he only needs it to work when he's when he's on air. But, when it's when when he's not when when he's not the guest,

72
00:07:20.690 --> 00:07:21.670
it stops working.

73
00:07:22.290 --> 00:07:24.150
We were I was just off

74
00:07:24.690 --> 00:07:26.630
air before before we got started about,

75
00:07:29.915 --> 00:07:33.134
sorry. What were we talking about? So, yeah, the the the the thing which,

76
00:07:33.675 --> 00:07:47.975
oh, yeah. That's it. So delivering lots of content. So, obviously, you've been quite prolific this week. You delivered a lot of content and how satisfying that is and how, within Alan Bits and and the hardware stuff which we work on, I think a lot of the reason we got exposure and a lot of the reason we pulled in a lot of the developers,

77
00:07:48.995 --> 00:08:04.944
into those projects was because we do a lot of tutorial and workshop videos. And more recently, I haven't I haven't made a video in, like, 4 or 5 months or something. I'm feeling terrible about it. And actually today, I sat down and the thing I was gonna build is a zap lamp, which which you should have. So every time that you get a zap,

78
00:08:05.405 --> 00:08:07.585
we have a little lamp and it just lights up.

79
00:08:07.965 --> 00:08:10.705
And it's just connected to a tiny little, you know,

80
00:08:11.180 --> 00:08:12.160
$3 microcontroller.

81
00:08:12.620 --> 00:08:16.960
And that was the workshop which I was sat here, and I was trying to work on all afternoon, but I kept getting distracted.

82
00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:19.955
So that will be the video which I check out,

83
00:08:20.435 --> 00:08:23.814
hopefully, tomorrow or the day after. It's a very That's awesome.

84
00:08:24.115 --> 00:08:29.170
Very easy project. It's like Lego. You know, it's just a couple of jumper cables, and then you can flash the software,

85
00:08:29.710 --> 00:08:35.250
via the web installer. So you could set one of these things up. You could order the parts off off. I'm looking at cost you about product.

86
00:08:36.564 --> 00:08:39.944
And then you plug it in. You can flash it, give it your public key,

87
00:08:40.485 --> 00:08:47.950
and it connects to your Wi Fi. And then every time you get a zap, the light will light up. Up. So you could have that maybe in the background on. So I was just there dispatch. Pretty funky.

88
00:08:48.410 --> 00:08:49.850
Well, what I think would be kinda cool

89
00:08:51.875 --> 00:08:54.775
so, like, one of my projects is Bitcoin Park here in Nashville,

90
00:08:55.315 --> 00:08:56.455
which is a community

91
00:08:56.835 --> 00:08:57.815
supported campus

92
00:09:00.060 --> 00:09:03.840
focused on open source development and and Bitcoin and and now Noster,

93
00:09:04.460 --> 00:09:05.760
right near the 2 universities.

94
00:09:06.300 --> 00:09:09.515
We had these 2 buildings right next to each other with tons of

95
00:09:09.895 --> 00:09:16.635
rooms. And one of the issues with Bitcoin Park is we're trying to make it sustainable, but we just keep losing money. Like, we've lost a a decent amount of money.

96
00:09:17.250 --> 00:09:19.910
And, you know, part of it is hopefully,

97
00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:26.070
as Bitcoin continues to succeed and Bitcoin has continued to succeed, we'll get more and more donations.

98
00:09:26.385 --> 00:09:35.925
So in, like, the back of my head, I always thought it'd be cool if in, like, every single room, there's, like, 25 rooms. If, like, in every single room, if we got a zap over a certain threshold,

99
00:09:36.370 --> 00:09:49.175
like, if Bitcoin Park got a zap over you get, like, over 20,000 sad zap or something. Like, the lights flash in every single room. So no matter what you're doing, everyone knows it's like, oh, Bitcoin Park just can keep the lights on. There's a little bit longer.

100
00:09:49.714 --> 00:09:52.694
Well, we have we have one of so the the the zap lamp,

101
00:09:54.010 --> 00:10:00.350
maybe it's partly based on the Bitcoin switch. Bitcoin switch is very popular project. It uses the the same little microcontroller,

102
00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:08.550
and and you can plug it into a relay. And then you have an annual payroll pay, and every time you pay it, you can get it to trigger something, you know, to get something to happen, you know,

103
00:10:08.950 --> 00:10:16.649
turn something on, turn a vending machine on, or or turn a, a Jacob's ladder, whatever whatever you you know, it's I did it on, I went on Peter McCormack's,

104
00:10:16.950 --> 00:10:32.940
live show, and I I I tried to hook him up to this electrocution machine so he'd let get it. Then we could have the, LNERO pays on the on the, screen behind us, and then audience members could pay to electrocute us while we were doing our panel discussion if they didn't like what we were saying.

105
00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:35.579
And one of the updates to that more recently,

106
00:10:36.040 --> 00:10:37.180
someone asked for,

107
00:10:37.745 --> 00:10:44.325
can't remember who it was, but I'd like to give a shout out. But whoever it was, it was a good idea, was that that you have a threshold. So instead of just paying

108
00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:45.480
a set amount,

109
00:10:45.780 --> 00:10:51.960
you set a threshold and you say when it gets to that threshold, then trigger the event. So with the SAP plan, anything's possible.

110
00:10:52.455 --> 00:10:54.475
That would be a pretty easy thing to implement,

111
00:10:54.855 --> 00:10:56.154
that you have the

112
00:10:56.455 --> 00:10:57.274
the zaps,

113
00:10:57.575 --> 00:11:01.050
like you say, wait for it to get to a certain amount and then you trigger the event.

114
00:11:02.089 --> 00:11:02.570
And,

115
00:11:02.890 --> 00:11:09.390
yeah, it won't be that hard to add that in. Yeah. Yeah. So So Ben I've I've heard also great things about the,

116
00:11:09.735 --> 00:11:14.475
what's it called? The the the the park the park you run. Yeah. We would love to have you here sometime.

117
00:11:15.015 --> 00:11:20.110
Yeah. The Bitcoin park. Yeah. I've had a bunch of hardware dork friends set some stuff up for you. You think an arcade machine?

118
00:11:21.129 --> 00:11:26.990
Yes. Yes. I mean, we do run an Allen Bits instance, and, the arcade machine is powered by it.

119
00:11:27.524 --> 00:11:28.024
Nice.

120
00:11:28.805 --> 00:11:30.985
I think Yeah. We have a dope arcade machine.

121
00:11:32.404 --> 00:11:34.665
This guy, George George George.

122
00:11:35.160 --> 00:11:39.420
George. He invented by the way, he invented LNURAL. In my mind, LNURAL.

123
00:11:39.880 --> 00:11:41.820
We were at the lightning hack day in New York,

124
00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:43.000
and,

125
00:11:43.565 --> 00:12:00.450
I asked Christian Dacus on stage. I said, I really want because I had a candy machine thing which I was building and had an e paper screen. I thought, this is so goofy. I just want a static ln URL sorry, a static QR code I can pay to. So me and George worked together, and then he hacked into, Eclair. So Eclair would do a get request.

126
00:12:00.795 --> 00:12:05.615
And then the get request would send back, an invoice. And then the wallet would say, do you wanna pay the invoice? And you'd say yes.

127
00:12:06.235 --> 00:12:09.215
And then the next day showcased an arcade machine

128
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:13.180
with the static QR code on, paying it, and then triggering,

129
00:12:14.120 --> 00:12:17.260
the the, you know, the coin to go into the arcade machine. George is amazing.

130
00:12:17.735 --> 00:12:22.795
I actually spoke with him for him and it was him in for quite a while, and we talked about making it into a protocol.

131
00:12:23.495 --> 00:12:30.070
And I actually I actually wrote I'm not gonna tell you where it is exactly or send you the link, but I actually wrote on the the Bitcoin mailing list,

132
00:12:31.110 --> 00:12:37.295
a proposal for a standard for, wallets, lightning wallets. So they would, they could do a get request,

133
00:12:37.834 --> 00:12:39.694
and get an invoice and then pay the invoice.

134
00:12:40.235 --> 00:13:03.180
And nobody nobody answered me. The only person who answered me was was Fiat Jaffe. And he said he basically just said that was a shit idea. And it was because they'd already started working on it. They worked on it for, for the channels. And I think he had the LNURO pay thing in his head, and he's like, this fuck is coming up with a similar idea, and he threw the sign off. And that was my first interaction with Fitch, Jeff. And then he goes That's fucking hilarious. Yeah. But George is great, man. I mean, what was really cool is,

135
00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:09.579
is not that not only that it works. Right? But he, like, built this custom

136
00:13:10.305 --> 00:13:12.245
case and everything. Like, it's wall mounted.

137
00:13:12.625 --> 00:13:19.810
It's beautiful. It's white. It's, like, super clean. It it looks very, very professional, and he custom built it for us at the park.

138
00:13:20.450 --> 00:13:25.190
Yeah. He takes he takes being a hardware dog to another level. In his house, he has, like, a a milling machine

139
00:13:25.650 --> 00:13:28.745
for, so he can put in a bit of MDF, and then the milling machine

140
00:13:29.305 --> 00:13:34.605
will cut out an arcade machine, which you can, like, put together. He also made, one for the,

141
00:13:35.545 --> 00:13:36.300
what's it called?

142
00:13:36.940 --> 00:13:37.839
Jacob crypto.

143
00:13:38.300 --> 00:13:39.279
They had a,

144
00:13:40.300 --> 00:13:49.695
I can't remember the the one with fluffy pony, and, they had a conference in New York. Oh, yeah. What was it, like, magical crypto conference or something? That's it. That's it. That's it. He made an arcade for them with a custom game on,

145
00:13:50.075 --> 00:13:53.535
with each one of their characters. Yeah. I played that game. Yeah. That's cool.

146
00:13:54.319 --> 00:13:56.259
Okay, Ben. We've we've we've

147
00:13:57.120 --> 00:13:59.680
we've gone on quite a adventure here.

148
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:02.980
Let's bring it back. Let's bring it back to basics.

149
00:14:03.365 --> 00:14:03.805
Okay.

150
00:14:04.245 --> 00:14:08.985
Why Ellen Bits? What is Ellen Bits? Like, why should people care about your project?

151
00:14:10.005 --> 00:14:10.450
So

152
00:14:11.010 --> 00:14:12.310
Alan Bits came from,

153
00:14:13.650 --> 00:14:14.450
all the best,

154
00:14:15.170 --> 00:14:18.790
things you build are informed by real world application and feedback.

155
00:14:19.535 --> 00:14:27.795
I was working on a bunch of hardware projects, so I made, like, a little DIY point of sale. And we had it in room 77 in Berlin, and York there was accepting payments,

156
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.620
onto the little point of sale.

157
00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:31.780
My problem was, as a developer,

158
00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:42.154
was that I had I used to make, like, 4 or 5 different versions of each project. 1 for core lightning, 1 for LND, 1 for a clear, 1 for OpenNode, 1 for LMP,

159
00:14:42.775 --> 00:14:55.615
and some other custodial solutions as well. And I really just wanted some middleware as an API, which which I could put any funding source underneath, and then I could just develop for that middleware the API. And then that would speak to whatever funding source.

160
00:14:55.915 --> 00:15:00.175
And then if I wanted to, for whatever reason, swap out that funding source wasn't working properly or whatever,

161
00:15:01.170 --> 00:15:10.790
then it it wouldn't require for me to do any refactoring of my code, and I could just develop one thing. So that was the first, you know, core idea behind it, was just a middleware API.

162
00:15:11.135 --> 00:15:21.589
The other one was it's funny because York's like this, like, crypto anarchists. Being in Bitcoin, pre Bitcoin, you know, he was fighting the good fight with the crypto wars and cypherpunks back in the day. Amazing guy. One of the most interesting people I've ever met.

163
00:15:22.610 --> 00:15:25.830
And then he was like, oh, yeah, Ben. Something I really need

164
00:15:26.465 --> 00:15:42.170
is, like, to export to CSV because I need to pay my taxes on all these beers I'm selling. So it's kinda funny. So he's like, at that point, node implementations is quite hard to identify what payments were. So the idea was it'd be nice to in that middle where when you receive a payment, say, you know, this is the bar,

165
00:15:42.595 --> 00:15:47.095
and then have an export feature so you can just export CSV, bring it to QuickBooks, whatever.

166
00:15:47.555 --> 00:15:51.175
So that's another application. And then, also, I really liked

167
00:15:52.580 --> 00:16:08.195
the kind of when you start with something simple and then you make it more complicated. So I'd I'd use WordPress a lot in the past, and I was always really admired the architecture. You start with a very simple blogging engine. And then depending on what you wanna build it for, you know, if you're sharp or if you're a content creator, or we're selling this, we said we're doing this.

168
00:16:08.575 --> 00:16:10.320
You just add the extra plug ins

169
00:16:10.800 --> 00:16:19.855
in. So I thought it'd be cool for us to have extensions because at that time, you know, like, we have lightning. It's this new amazing protocol. We're all developing all these goofy projects on top of it. Like, I made the first,

170
00:16:20.235 --> 00:16:23.535
Eleanor withdrawal faucet, and I put it on the Internet, Sinclair Faucet.

171
00:16:24.235 --> 00:16:41.825
And I didn't open source it. And if I had, it was really messy. And if I did open source it and if I did, like, make it available, like, people would have to go to the repo. They would have to install it. They'd have to, like, install it in whichever wacky way for whatever code base I'm using. So it made sense that all these product all these all these experiments, all these interesting

172
00:16:42.550 --> 00:16:44.650
ways in which we can utilize these micropayments,

173
00:16:45.830 --> 00:16:53.834
that they would be a a a sort of set where you could build an extension. And then for the use for the people you wanna share it with, all they need to do if they've got their business installed

174
00:16:54.135 --> 00:17:01.209
is just install the add the extension and then enable the extension, and that's it. It's just a couple of clicks of a button, and we have access to that functionality.

175
00:17:02.070 --> 00:17:03.610
Actually, going back to that,

176
00:17:04.070 --> 00:17:09.895
New York Hack Day, there was a I can't remember his name, but there was a guy then. He made us a jukebox where you could connect it to your Spotify account,

177
00:17:10.195 --> 00:17:12.615
and then, you could have a software jukebox.

178
00:17:13.395 --> 00:17:15.155
And that's one of the first Alan Bits,

179
00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:21.730
extensions we made. I reached out to him. He didn't wanna build it. He's busy, but I built it. And then just we just give everyone props in the thing. I think it's very important.

180
00:17:22.697 --> 00:17:36.600
But, yeah, it's great. You just connect to your Spotify account. You you have a nice UI where you can your use users can select songs, pay for songs, then it it just plays on a device which you specify. So you could just plug in a phone, an old Android phone, or whatever into your bar speakers. And then you have a jukebox, which is amazing,

181
00:17:37.299 --> 00:17:38.840
and, a very, you know,

182
00:17:39.325 --> 00:17:39.825
useful,

183
00:17:40.125 --> 00:17:41.345
use case for micropayments,

184
00:17:41.805 --> 00:17:45.005
digital micropayments because, you know, Visa and all these other networks don't really,

185
00:17:45.725 --> 00:17:56.530
don't really cater for that. So I go on a tangent. So yeah. So we we it came out of the maker builder community. It was quite interesting because I was actually in in Scotland when it was during COVID when I first started at the project.

186
00:17:57.070 --> 00:17:57.309
And,

187
00:17:58.645 --> 00:18:08.150
I'm in the exact same place right now, which is which is which is cool. I've been back for a while. But, yeah, it was me, Fiat, Jeff, and a co few of us. We kind of cobbled together this piece of software where

188
00:18:08.550 --> 00:18:13.850
you could use it as like a this is the other thing. Like, we wanted because we go to our conferences and we're we're shelling lightning.

189
00:18:14.150 --> 00:18:19.065
We wanted a way that people could scan a QR code and then have, like, a funded lightning wallet on their phone. So,

190
00:18:19.925 --> 00:18:29.929
like a web wallet, you don't have to install any software or anything. If you want, you can install this progressive web app, whatever. Like, you just don't you can just get it open and it's just and you can use it then for the experiences at the conference which we built.

191
00:18:30.710 --> 00:18:33.675
So those are the concepts. So we just it ended up being

192
00:18:34.375 --> 00:18:35.355
this very simple,

193
00:18:36.055 --> 00:18:36.875
lightning wallet

194
00:18:37.415 --> 00:18:44.760
which you can certainly receive funds from. You can also make create as many wallets as you want because that was another annoying thing about nodes at that time is you couldn't,

195
00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:53.205
it was hot. You only had one account. So I built an ATM. And if the ATM's got the the administrative rights to be able to send money to somebody,

196
00:18:54.065 --> 00:19:06.335
then if I'm using it on my notes, it's gonna have, like, my admin macaroon or something. So, that sucked. So the idea is that you can insulate exposure to funds by having all these multiple wallets, so they've all got their own API keys. So if you start with a simple wallet, And then,

197
00:19:06.635 --> 00:19:10.655
if you go to extensions, there's then a whole bunch of extensions there which do all sorts of these interesting,

198
00:19:11.275 --> 00:19:15.090
things. And and the great thing about it for a developer, if you put it in your stack, is,

199
00:19:16.690 --> 00:19:20.630
every time you install one of those extensions, you then it then comes with its own API.

200
00:19:21.125 --> 00:19:21.625
So,

201
00:19:22.085 --> 00:19:25.385
save your I don't know. We have some casinos using Allen Bits. Right?

202
00:19:26.245 --> 00:19:32.980
And save one of these Swiss companies. There's a couple of, Swiss these, you know, these these Fiat on and off ramp rails where you have to do KYC.

203
00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:37.220
There's a few of those which are, building extensions for lmbits.

204
00:19:37.815 --> 00:19:44.635
Well, like, that API then becomes available to these casinos. They could offer that fee on an on an off ramp via that service to their users

205
00:19:45.010 --> 00:19:46.530
through their own UI. And,

206
00:19:46.930 --> 00:19:55.625
yeah. So it works really well as a as a a piece of software you can put in your stack if you you're building an application on top. And you get you keep getting all these amazing extra bits of functionality

207
00:19:56.005 --> 00:19:58.664
added in potentially if you wanna install those extensions,

208
00:19:59.205 --> 00:20:01.145
by these all these extensions being contributed.

209
00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.220
And then it also just works really well as a web wallet as well. So yeah.

210
00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:06.500
So it was all

211
00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:17.095
it was all informed decision making from, like, real world use case, which is actually how you should build stuff. You know, you should you shouldn't just sit there trying to think of what people might need. You should, you know,

212
00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:25.150
build something which is useful either for, you know, someone you know who's using this technology or or maybe even yourself who's you you want something. And it's kind of one of those projects where

213
00:20:25.530 --> 00:20:30.465
as soon as someone wraps their head around how it works and how we can just add these extensions which do different things,

214
00:20:31.165 --> 00:20:33.505
quite often somebody's got a great idea for an extension.

215
00:20:34.205 --> 00:20:37.610
And then more often than not, if they haven't got the development,

216
00:20:38.950 --> 00:20:44.570
ability, then if they just propose that extension to put out there in ether and somebody comes along and we'll just build the extension.

217
00:20:45.465 --> 00:20:50.765
So yeah. So it's it's like a WordPress for your node. Start with something small, the wallet, and then,

218
00:20:51.385 --> 00:20:55.769
extend it into whatever direction you wanna extend it in. And, because of that, we've always been,

219
00:20:56.309 --> 00:21:03.865
because we had PHF as well in the project as well, and he's obviously started the I think our protocol was working on that. We always kind of had, like, the cutting edge,

220
00:21:05.045 --> 00:21:07.785
Bitcoin lightning stuff. Like, we had all the Alenorale stuff

221
00:21:08.165 --> 00:21:24.155
integrated into Alenorale bits really early on to be able to build on top of it. We also have the hardware scene because I'm into hardware stuff, and I kind of help everyone to cultivate, like, a build and make a scene in in Bitcoin so that all the hardware dorks, we're all involved in in Alan Bits as well. Pretty much like any guy, like, working on, like,

222
00:21:25.895 --> 00:21:29.240
random hardware projects. It's usually like Alan Bits at the back end.

223
00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:36.915
Yeah. Because it's useful. And, like, we've built stuff for ourselves, like the Switch thing, and then there's a gazillion different use cases you can do for that. Right.

224
00:21:37.455 --> 00:21:37.695
And,

225
00:21:38.495 --> 00:21:40.995
it's great, man. Every time I go to a conference I was in Madeira,

226
00:21:42.255 --> 00:21:42.655
and,

227
00:21:43.215 --> 00:21:46.049
what's his name? The b c map guy. Nathan. Nathan?

228
00:21:46.350 --> 00:22:02.750
He his his daughter was there. She made, like, you know, one of those got one of those claw grabber games where she can get on, like, you know, cheap callback grabs about 30 quid. And she'd retro she just added one of these little microcontrollers, and then you paid to play, and then you got to play at the core grabber game. Like, it's great. This is great what people come up with.

229
00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:04.910
Couple of people have built vending machines.

230
00:22:06.170 --> 00:22:06.670
Oh,

231
00:22:07.290 --> 00:22:14.294
Lee in so we have a great group. It's on Telegram. But if anyone's interested in joining us, please do. So it's Makerbit's on Telegram.

232
00:22:14.914 --> 00:22:22.670
Lee, one of the most active users in there, he built this great it's more recently this this it's just an ad board. So it's a little screen.

233
00:22:23.290 --> 00:22:39.880
And then the idea is you can just send to an L and you're on pay and has comments so you can add the comment in. And when you put the comment in, it will say the thing on the screen, which is cool. But you can also I add an image URL, and it will display the image as well. So the idea is that you could just have pay as you go advertising. So you could maybe have some of these at a conference

234
00:22:40.260 --> 00:22:55.530
and then have those pays or, like like, for yourself for the park, you could have some of these up. And then if people wanna you know, if there's an event on they know there's an event on, they could pay to advertise on those on those boards. You might get some sketchy stuff on there every now and then, but I don't know how we get around that really in these,

235
00:22:56.090 --> 00:23:02.554
permissions to build environments. But yeah. I mean and that so the the unit he's built, it's, like this is the other thing. We we always

236
00:23:03.115 --> 00:23:10.010
probably because we're spending our own money, like r and d ing all this hardware, we we tend to go as low as we can when it comes to the price point.

237
00:23:10.570 --> 00:23:17.630
So that project, I think, is like $10, you know, to make one of these little boards. And at some point soon, we'll have, like, a web installer for it, and,

238
00:23:18.585 --> 00:23:21.085
it'll be as easy as I needed the projects to set up.

239
00:23:21.465 --> 00:23:22.605
So, yeah, the the

240
00:23:23.385 --> 00:23:26.265
builder maker scene, I think, in in Lightning and,

241
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.900
the hardware side is is coming along so much. And that permissionless development,

242
00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:35.780
that enthusiasm, and that camaraderie between developers is passed on really well into the the Nostra

243
00:23:36.125 --> 00:23:36.625
ecosystem

244
00:23:37.405 --> 00:23:38.305
as well. So

245
00:23:38.845 --> 00:23:44.880
so, I mean, what I hear is that, like, Ellen Bits kind of had, like, a very iterative process. It started quite simply, and then

246
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:46.080
you had this

247
00:23:46.540 --> 00:23:52.640
way to make extensions, and then all of these extensions got added on top. How how many extensions are you at at this point?

248
00:23:53.054 --> 00:23:53.955
We got 40.

249
00:23:54.655 --> 00:23:56.915
But Okay. I mean, a lot of those have been contributed.

250
00:23:57.535 --> 00:23:58.355
Maybe 40.

251
00:23:58.735 --> 00:23:59.235
40

252
00:23:59.990 --> 00:24:06.650
3, 4, 5. We got a bunch of them. So but the way it works with Alan Bits is this is amazing. So Vlad Stan, he's the, developer,

253
00:24:07.165 --> 00:24:09.265
incredibly talented developer who works in lmbits,

254
00:24:09.565 --> 00:24:23.730
and he built our extension architecture. Because before, we would just package all the extensions into lmbits to kind of pretend that you're just enabling them, but they were just all packaged in. It was kinda bloaty. He pulled them all out. And then so they all live on their own repos. They've got their own issues or in poll requests.

255
00:24:24.405 --> 00:24:33.045
And then you create a release to the extension. Each extension has a manifest file, so it's a JSON file. You put that in your element bits, and then it gives you access to that,

256
00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:35.029
extension to install it.

257
00:24:35.570 --> 00:24:46.315
However, the the issue is when you install element bits first time, you don't want all these, like, sketchy extensions which haven't been vetted and might be doing something bad. You know? So we maintain,

258
00:24:47.014 --> 00:24:54.760
in the Allen Bits organization, we maintain, a big manifest file. So if you want it so when you first install LMBits, you get access to, like, 40 extensions.

259
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:57.960
Those releases have all been checked by,

260
00:24:59.025 --> 00:25:02.245
like, at least 3 of the core developers working on LMBits,

261
00:25:02.705 --> 00:25:05.685
to make sure it's not doing any funky. And when you submit it, you

262
00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:08.450
you you take a hash of the zip of the release

263
00:25:08.909 --> 00:25:10.450
so we can verify exactly

264
00:25:10.830 --> 00:25:12.130
what is being pulled,

265
00:25:12.669 --> 00:25:15.695
and what people are installing into their l m bits. So it's it's a very

266
00:25:16.174 --> 00:25:24.595
it's one of those things which, like, the underlying mechanics of a project. Because, I mean, lmbits was always an amazing application, but for a long time, it was shitty software.

267
00:25:25.350 --> 00:25:31.030
But now the software has really come along and the architecture of the software has really come along. So so it it's it's,

268
00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:34.915
it's it fulfills our original promise of your

269
00:25:35.455 --> 00:25:39.155
those extensions are vetted. If you wanna install some sketchy extension, you can.

270
00:25:40.175 --> 00:25:44.490
But it means that if you're running out on bits, you're probably just only gonna install, like, 3 or 4 extensions,

271
00:25:44.790 --> 00:25:45.610
which you need.

272
00:25:46.630 --> 00:25:53.635
And, that just minimizes even though we've added the extensions, that always minimizes the attack factor because you've just got less code in your node.

273
00:25:54.174 --> 00:26:01.920
The the cool thing as well, which, Vlad has been working on more recently. So these extensions get contributed by often by, you know, like, a weekend warrior developer.

274
00:26:02.860 --> 00:26:09.525
He's, you know, partners bugging him because he's like or she's like, you know, cry grinding away on the the computer outside of work time.

275
00:26:10.785 --> 00:26:11.285
And,

276
00:26:11.905 --> 00:26:50.365
they offer them for free. But, Vlad's actually added no one's built one yet, but we've we've got the it's built out so people can actually charge for extensions. So one of these weekend warriors could build an extension, stick it on, submit it to the vested extension list. It'll be packaged in with, well, you know, it'll be there visible so people can install it with every every element that's installed. And when you go to install it, it will just ask for you to pay x amount, you know, 1,000 sats, 10,000 sats, 20,000 sats. But for a developer, that's really exciting because you can, you know, you can make an extension in a day. And if it's a good idea, you know, there's, what, 1,000 Nellenbits installs out there, and a bunch of them are gonna install it. They might pay, like, 10, 20000 sats each, which I don't think they'd begrudge because they value,

277
00:26:51.065 --> 00:26:56.800
the extension they're installing. So I feel like added with that added incentive of paid extensions,

278
00:26:57.580 --> 00:27:00.960
that that will have, like, a bit of a Cambrian explosion when it comes to people

279
00:27:01.695 --> 00:27:11.610
developing extensions and other bits. But we had to build 1, because we've all been too busy, but that's on the list of things to do is build a paid extension to show that it's possible to charge for extensions.

280
00:27:12.870 --> 00:27:14.409
Yeah. Kinda like an app store.

281
00:27:15.270 --> 00:27:17.515
Yeah. So, basically, like, we're not reinventing the wheel.

282
00:27:18.235 --> 00:27:23.695
We're just following WordPress. We just copy WordPress. That's how WordPress works. You know? They're just free extensions, paid extensions.

283
00:27:24.395 --> 00:27:31.570
Yeah. And if you want, you can install some sketchy extension, you know, which someone passes you over in a Telegram group, but they recommend that you don't do that. You know?

284
00:27:32.990 --> 00:27:34.290
So, I mean, we have,

285
00:27:35.895 --> 00:27:38.555
so at its core, like, Ellen Bits is like

286
00:27:42.269 --> 00:27:43.330
like, a programmable

287
00:27:44.190 --> 00:27:46.850
custodial wallet, right, that people can self host.

288
00:27:47.470 --> 00:28:03.429
Well, that's the that's the other thing. So the the one of the sorry, because there's so many, like No. There's so many there's so many elements which go into making while embeds became the big thing was, like, me and Fitger for that time, you know, we're running notes and stuff. And we're like, this this is hard. People aren't are gonna struggle with this, and we we need an Uncle Jim model.

289
00:28:03.730 --> 00:28:05.990
And at that time, there was OpenNode and LMP.

290
00:28:06.655 --> 00:28:08.355
So there wasn't really, like, a diverse

291
00:28:08.895 --> 00:28:21.660
choice in custodians you could use. So the idea was you could decentralize the custodianship in the if you make this thing easy for anyone to run, they could run it for themselves, their families, small community, or the whole world if they want to, or they could run it for a business.

292
00:28:22.315 --> 00:28:24.095
But the great thing about it is,

293
00:28:25.915 --> 00:28:26.895
when we move

294
00:28:27.755 --> 00:28:31.660
to nodes being easier to run, which I strongly feel we will one day get to,

295
00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:48.485
Alan Bits, you know, works great if you're just using it for yourself, like Right. And, and running it yourself. So we just work hard trying to make it as easy as possible for people to run themselves, and we recommend that people run it themselves rather than you somebody else's. But, yes, you can offer, like, a custodial open node type solution

296
00:28:49.780 --> 00:28:52.360
to the world if you want to. So first of all,

297
00:28:52.740 --> 00:28:53.320
you know,

298
00:28:55.940 --> 00:28:58.835
good memes are are viral and and and

299
00:28:59.855 --> 00:29:02.514
copied and and have a life of their own,

300
00:29:03.134 --> 00:29:04.595
similar to open source software.

301
00:29:05.100 --> 00:29:06.720
So I don't pretend to have ownership

302
00:29:07.259 --> 00:29:08.879
over this particular meme,

303
00:29:09.179 --> 00:29:09.500
but,

304
00:29:09.980 --> 00:29:15.835
I do I do have a very strong claim that I invented the term uncle Jim.

305
00:29:16.774 --> 00:29:20.315
Oh. And it was on Rabbit Hole recap. It was on podcast.

306
00:29:20.695 --> 00:29:26.899
I do not have an uncle named Jim, because I don't wanna dox any of my uncles. So I it was the first name that came to mind.

307
00:29:27.360 --> 00:29:28.980
And we were just having a conversation.

308
00:29:29.520 --> 00:29:31.380
And I will say that when I originally

309
00:29:32.895 --> 00:29:33.955
coined the term,

310
00:29:34.895 --> 00:29:36.515
I was not referring to

311
00:29:36.815 --> 00:29:41.155
custodial services. It has kind of moved into this custodial realm,

312
00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:47.120
is is is how the community has kind of taken it. But, originally, it was like running an Electrum server.

313
00:29:48.460 --> 00:29:55.195
It was, you know, running, like, different back end stuff that wasn't necessarily, like, holding custody of funds. I think that it does.

314
00:29:56.535 --> 00:29:57.515
It it changes

315
00:29:57.895 --> 00:29:58.715
it changes

316
00:29:59.350 --> 00:30:03.130
the liability responsibility that you are sharing with community members,

317
00:30:04.230 --> 00:30:08.650
whether that is a family member, like an uncle or, you know, some kind of community leader.

318
00:30:10.905 --> 00:30:14.605
You know, I maybe where Bitcoin currently stands right now,

319
00:30:15.785 --> 00:30:21.529
self custody tools need to, you know, greatly improve, and they have greatly improved, but maybe they need to improve further.

320
00:30:22.510 --> 00:30:35.820
But me me personally, like, originally, like, it was like, you know, someone ran the node, and this was on chain. Right? Like, maybe not everyone's running a node, but someone's actually running the node, keeping an actual copy of the blockchain, verifying everything.

321
00:30:36.760 --> 00:30:43.465
And then people connect back to that is, like, a way a way for us to scale in in the short term. And then with Lightning

322
00:30:43.924 --> 00:30:48.585
and the difficulties with running self custody Lightning, particularly, like, just the

323
00:30:49.179 --> 00:30:52.799
just the core foundational difficulties of liquidity management

324
00:30:53.100 --> 00:30:54.480
and on chain fee burden,

325
00:30:55.660 --> 00:30:58.559
it's kind of morphed into a little bit of

326
00:31:00.924 --> 00:31:07.585
a custodial meme, which is a little bit odd. But I I just felt like it's worth it's worth mentioning how that kind of came about.

327
00:31:08.169 --> 00:31:25.980
Yeah. And I still I'm amazed when I just hear people just say uncle Jim. Like, it's just like, I literally just came up with it in a random fucking episode, like, 3 years ago or something like that. That's very nice. You need to you need to write a Wikipedia article. See if that's I mean, I don't really care. I don't need to have, someone someone out there needs to do a Wikipedia article. Good memes shouldn't be owned.

328
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:33.340
There's, like, a bunch of people trying to, like, trademark StayHumbleStacks ads. Like, they can all go fuck themselves. Like, I'm not gonna defensively trademark it.

329
00:31:33.845 --> 00:31:35.625
No. But you can it's nice to have a historical

330
00:31:36.404 --> 00:31:40.505
claim that I came up with that thing. I mean, look, I I know it, and that's enough.

331
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:47.180
I know it, and that's enough, and and people can go back and verify if they want. All the records are out there in the public.

332
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:56.590
Yeah. I mean, so we have we have, a bunch of Ellen Bits users, and they'll install Ellen Bits, and, like, their kids will just have wallets on their Ellen Bits node, you know,

333
00:31:57.070 --> 00:32:02.610
on their server. So that that Yeah. I mean, if it's make sense. You know? If it's a father gym model,

334
00:32:03.630 --> 00:32:10.914
you know, maybe, like, that makes more sense. Like, they literally have custody of the children too. Like, the whole child is a custodial relationship.

335
00:32:11.455 --> 00:32:22.980
Yeah. I don't know I don't want my uncle to be able to rug me. Like, to me, personally, like, that's that's a bridge too far. And if I'm the uncle, which you I usually, in these conversations, we're the uncle.

336
00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:25.299
Like, I don't wanna be able to rug my nephew.

337
00:32:25.664 --> 00:32:42.730
No. And I don't wanna have that. I like, what if I accidentally rug him? Yeah. It's not it doesn't even have to be intentionally malicious. Like, what if I fuck something up and he loses his money? Like, I don't want that on me. I just wanna verify the chain and provide, you know, basic services to my family and my community.

338
00:32:43.475 --> 00:32:45.575
Well, this is this is the great thing about lmbits,

339
00:32:46.275 --> 00:32:48.615
is that, yes, you can use it in that way,

340
00:32:48.915 --> 00:32:51.815
but it works great if you're just running it yourself. And then, ultimately,

341
00:32:52.320 --> 00:33:04.304
for me, that's the goal is everyone runs any you know, we don't want any trusted third parties. No one should have a trusted third party. They run all of their own shit, and we just make it easier to run. When it comes to lightning and running a lightning node, like,

342
00:33:05.165 --> 00:33:06.065
human beings

343
00:33:06.445 --> 00:33:08.945
don't tackle things until they're real problems.

344
00:33:09.450 --> 00:33:18.350
So having, like, low a synthetic low fee environment because the whole world isn't using Bitcoin Right. Means that no one really worked on scaling Lightning, things like channel factories,

345
00:33:20.125 --> 00:33:20.625
sufficiently.

346
00:33:21.645 --> 00:33:40.565
And, also, just like so, like, a good example is in lmbits. If you install lmbits on a lightning note, like an LND or a clair or c lightning, there's a node manager in there. So you can go in there. You can open a channel. You can connect peers. You can do that sort of shit in there. The reason we added that, right, it wasn't because, you know, we're trying to be feature rich. It was just because we had

347
00:33:41.345 --> 00:33:49.000
a certain node management piece of software, which I don't wanna diss on too much, but it's kind of bloaty. And every time we spun it up, it would crash our server because it's so bloaty.

348
00:33:49.460 --> 00:33:56.165
And we're like, okay. So now we have to build our own node manager. And this is like this is about a couple of years ago. And I'm thinking at that point in time, I was like,

349
00:33:56.545 --> 00:34:05.230
how have we got to this point where there isn't a decent node management UI to the point where we're having to build our own node management UI into Ellen Bits. Like,

350
00:34:05.770 --> 00:34:09.310
that just it shows how how much more we need to build

351
00:34:09.715 --> 00:34:14.935
on on bit on Lightning. And then so, like, more recently when we we did have some high fees from the ordinal stuff,

352
00:34:16.195 --> 00:34:20.119
people started, like, this that great project, Bolt. Like, Bolt almost died as a project.

353
00:34:20.740 --> 00:34:21.960
And then when,

354
00:34:23.140 --> 00:34:29.615
we started to get high fees, people realized actually how powerful Boltz is for looping funds in and out of, Lightning to balance channels.

355
00:34:30.075 --> 00:34:36.400
And because of that, if that project's thrived and now it's a very important part of, you know, any sophisticated node management,

356
00:34:37.100 --> 00:34:38.560
topology, like using,

357
00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:41.520
autumn you know, swaps,

358
00:34:41.900 --> 00:34:48.105
trustless swaps, It's a very powerful tool, and now they have liquid to lightning support. So you can hold a liquid balance.

359
00:34:48.885 --> 00:34:49.865
And then to

360
00:34:50.245 --> 00:34:55.930
swap into lightning, it costs, like, you know, 100 sats or something. So for balancing channels, it's great.

361
00:34:56.390 --> 00:34:57.050
And, again,

362
00:34:57.590 --> 00:35:01.369
in other bits, now we're gonna have to build in into our node manager,

363
00:35:01.984 --> 00:35:05.925
because we have a Bolt's extension because DNI, Bolt's developer, also works in other bits.

364
00:35:07.665 --> 00:35:14.840
So, anyway, we show this great Bolt's extension. So now we will build that into the node manager at some point so we can have some sort of automatic channel rebalancing

365
00:35:15.220 --> 00:35:15.720
mechanism,

366
00:35:16.900 --> 00:35:26.575
and probably build in a liquid wallet as well. But, yeah, it's humans not really working on stuff until it's a real necessity, and scaling is one of them. So when humans have all these Bitcoin when we haven't worked on scaling

367
00:35:26.954 --> 00:35:27.454
lightning,

368
00:35:28.030 --> 00:35:29.490
And then when we suddenly

369
00:35:29.870 --> 00:35:34.610
hit, you know, high fees, and everyone goes, oh, Lightning doesn't work. It's broken. It's too hard to run. It costs me too much subchannels.

370
00:35:35.065 --> 00:35:40.525
It's like, no. We haven't built that shit. Like, we're 5% in. We've done 5% of the work. There's 95% more work to do.

371
00:35:41.385 --> 00:35:41.885
So

372
00:35:42.985 --> 00:35:43.725
I agree.

373
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.040
First of all, on talking about,

374
00:35:47.359 --> 00:35:47.859
pressure,

375
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.845
basically, every dispatch is a a a live pressure test of ZapStream.

376
00:35:54.384 --> 00:36:04.930
So I messaged I messaged Kieran during this episode, and he's fixed zaps. Zaps are showing now. And as you can see on the screen, the zaps that previously came in are also showing.

377
00:36:05.230 --> 00:36:10.545
So shout out to Kieran for for fixing zaps, and thank you, Freaks, for continuing to support the show.

378
00:36:11.964 --> 00:36:12.464
I

379
00:36:14.500 --> 00:36:25.605
I agree on the fee environment thing too. I mean, there was people, like, 8 months ago just 8 months ago, people that should have known better were, like, operating under the assumption that we'd have 1 sapper bite forever,

380
00:36:26.065 --> 00:36:33.740
which is fucking insane to the point where, like, I was getting shit on for being like, no. Fees are gonna go up. Like, I thought we all agreed that this makes

381
00:36:34.200 --> 00:36:37.339
complete logical sense. Like, what do you guys just live in in a completely

382
00:36:38.275 --> 00:36:42.775
illogical world that you think fees will always clear? And now people are starting to realize that.

383
00:36:43.155 --> 00:36:44.535
But with all this said

384
00:36:44.994 --> 00:36:45.494
right.

385
00:36:46.010 --> 00:36:49.710
It's it's fucking awesome how easy it is to self host Ellen Bits,

386
00:36:50.330 --> 00:36:54.110
and a lot of people do it, including myself in the park. I do it for the park.

387
00:36:56.255 --> 00:36:56.755
The

388
00:36:57.295 --> 00:36:59.075
you also have a demo server,

389
00:37:00.174 --> 00:37:08.230
which I guess is you guys are hosting it, and and some people have built stuff on top of that. But where I'm going is we have Tony in the live chat. One of the coolest parts about dispatch

390
00:37:08.770 --> 00:37:14.145
is our live chat, is our ride or die freaks. We have Tony Georgio of immunity wild in live chat. And he's asking,

391
00:37:14.845 --> 00:37:23.569
I really hope the trend of people trying to run custodial services on top of Ellen Bids ends before more people lose money. What is your response to Tony?

392
00:37:24.349 --> 00:37:28.485
Run it yourself. Like, well, this is the reason we make it easy to run yourself is,

393
00:37:29.205 --> 00:37:31.065
because we don't want people using

394
00:37:31.365 --> 00:37:33.145
other people's Allen bits installs.

395
00:37:33.445 --> 00:37:38.650
We want we want people to run themselves. So our demo server, which we've had, running for 4 years,

396
00:37:39.350 --> 00:37:40.730
that runs our dev branch.

397
00:37:41.110 --> 00:37:43.690
And we do testing stuff on there. We test stuff on there.

398
00:37:44.085 --> 00:37:45.385
And we've consistently

399
00:37:46.165 --> 00:37:59.580
said to people, please never use this thing with real funds. But you know what people are like? They want something which is easy, and then they end up using it. So we keep saying, please don't use this thing. Please don't use this thing. Please don't use this thing. And no one listens to warnings. It doesn't matter. No one listens to warnings. And then

400
00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:03.200
yeah. And then so we had a a a recent episode where,

401
00:38:03.645 --> 00:38:04.545
we were testing

402
00:38:04.925 --> 00:38:21.015
something on the demo server, and then we lost some money. And we're like, we have to turn around to everybody and say, look. It's a demo server. It's fucked. We have to reset the demo server. And everyone's really frustrated, and they're like, wait. You shouldn't be using this thing in production. Like, please don't use it in production. That's why there's all these disclaimers all over it saying don't use this thing.

403
00:38:22.195 --> 00:38:23.655
So, but, anyway,

404
00:38:24.115 --> 00:38:37.720
from that experience, it's been very cool, actually. We've built a whole bunch of unit tests for AlanBits off the back of it. And then, also, the idea is now is how do we build Alan Bits to the point where even if you go in and, like, hack around with some of the core files and then fucked it up,

405
00:38:38.255 --> 00:38:42.035
you know, on your own install, if you if that's the way you're inclined, you wanna pack away,

406
00:38:44.495 --> 00:38:48.560
then can we have, like, a whole bunch of security gatekeeping features

407
00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:49.360
where

408
00:38:50.060 --> 00:38:51.200
even with a compromised

409
00:38:51.580 --> 00:39:04.570
core install of a corrupted Allen bits, they could only ever take too many too much funds. You know? It only ever take a certain amount of funds. So there's a whole bunch of stuff which we're building around that. Yeah. But I personally lost some money on on our demo server and because I'd I'd put money into,

410
00:39:05.510 --> 00:39:21.510
to make the node, you know, liquid so we could have, like, decent channels and stuff. So, personally, for me, it stung even though I was pre you know, every time every single go back to any talk I've ever done. I'm gonna do this. You know, I'm doing a talk. I'm like, right. Well, I'm gonna use a demo server. It's just a demo server. It's just for testing. Please don't use it with real funds.

411
00:39:21.810 --> 00:39:22.550
And then

412
00:39:22.930 --> 00:39:31.815
and the amount of people I would bump into and like, at a conference, and they say, I'll build this thing. And I'm like, oh, you're running your own bits. They'll be, oh, I'm using the demo server. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Please run your own bits.

413
00:39:32.115 --> 00:39:33.885
Don't use the demo server. So,

414
00:39:35.230 --> 00:39:40.210
people say that that demo server should be running on testnet, but I'm like, I kinda feel that it should

415
00:39:41.070 --> 00:39:43.570
nothing's really tested until it's run on mainnet.

416
00:39:44.165 --> 00:39:49.305
So, yeah. So we've gone and we've added a whole bunch of more disclaimers to make it even more obvious that people shouldn't use it.

417
00:39:50.245 --> 00:39:53.910
But, yeah, it was it was an unfortunate and sad episode, which was bound to happen,

418
00:39:55.030 --> 00:39:59.210
at some point. Do you see Tony's response? Tony, by the way, if you wanna, like,

419
00:39:59.670 --> 00:40:01.369
if you wanna join us in the

420
00:40:02.775 --> 00:40:04.955
audio portion, you're welcome to

421
00:40:05.255 --> 00:40:06.155
come join us.

422
00:40:06.615 --> 00:40:07.755
You're always welcome.

423
00:40:08.455 --> 00:40:14.600
But Tony Tony's like he's saying it's not really his concern isn't really necessary demo server situations,

424
00:40:15.940 --> 00:40:24.395
but, like, real like like, Bitcoin Park. Right? It's like Bitcoin Park is running in Ellen Bits, And then, like so someone somewhere is self hosting Ellen Bits.

425
00:40:25.015 --> 00:40:28.795
And then they're building on top of that, and they're building, like, some massive

426
00:40:30.310 --> 00:40:30.810
custodial

427
00:40:31.110 --> 00:40:31.610
service.

428
00:40:32.470 --> 00:40:40.425
Well, like, how do you think about that? I mean, obviously, like, you're building up for a software. You have, like, people can run it. Totally. This is beat beat beat it's beta software,

429
00:40:41.365 --> 00:40:41.865
and

430
00:40:42.645 --> 00:40:44.665
a lot of software rolls out in Bitcoin,

431
00:40:45.365 --> 00:40:51.320
and claims, you know, to be production ready, and it's not. So we're not we've never claimed to be production ready.

432
00:40:51.940 --> 00:40:55.160
This is why we pulled out all those extensions. So we can actually go

433
00:40:55.515 --> 00:40:56.495
like stick.

434
00:40:57.355 --> 00:41:11.150
He works on Ellen Bits, Satoshi Labstick sometimes, and he's got a whole bunch of, you know, charcoal motherfuckers in in Prague who we're gonna give it to them to audit core, element of core and really try and probe and attack it in every which way direction. And we're gonna do that regularly.

435
00:41:11.530 --> 00:41:16.495
At some point, when we get that for us is when we we step out into production. Right?

436
00:41:17.435 --> 00:41:22.175
But the the one of the things which people find valuable with something like Allen bits is any

437
00:41:22.890 --> 00:41:28.110
piece of software you build on top of a lightning node offering some sort of service on the Internet or whatever,

438
00:41:28.730 --> 00:41:30.430
or offering to to users.

439
00:41:30.815 --> 00:41:34.915
Out the gate is gonna come with a whole bunch of vulnerabilities, which a lot of us already know about.

440
00:41:36.494 --> 00:41:37.234
So there's

441
00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:47.420
we've we've run our own server, and we've been testing the software for, what, like, 4 years now? So you've got 4 years' worth of hardening. You've got these extra security tools you're building, so rate limiters,

442
00:41:48.315 --> 00:41:49.214
IP blockers,

443
00:41:49.674 --> 00:41:52.414
a watchdog tool which we've been working on, which is where

444
00:41:53.115 --> 00:41:54.815
you keep an eye on the node funds.

445
00:41:55.270 --> 00:42:00.810
And if the, you know, if the comparison between node funds and the funds on your LLM bits becomes too disjointed, it will shut the server.

446
00:42:01.750 --> 00:42:02.650
Kill switches,

447
00:42:03.030 --> 00:42:07.655
and then a whole bunch of other stuff which we're gonna build. Because we realized so we added some security stuff.

448
00:42:08.055 --> 00:42:16.520
I mean, obviously, it's been hardened and, you know, we've always been developing out of it, so it'd be as as as as you could trust the software so you're not gonna lose funds.

449
00:42:17.860 --> 00:42:26.125
But we then started adding some just some security features to it just, you know, just for our own peace of mind. And now that's kind of becoming a big part of LMB. It's like I said, like,

450
00:42:26.664 --> 00:42:34.549
you want something which has multiple gatekeepers, so you have rate limits on how much a wallet can can can spend a day or a user can spend a day or,

451
00:42:35.329 --> 00:42:38.450
how many users can be created. Like, all this stuff is built into

452
00:42:39.170 --> 00:42:40.130
you know, if you look at,

453
00:42:41.089 --> 00:42:42.675
I don't know, any traditional

454
00:42:43.615 --> 00:42:47.395
service on the Internet, whether it's money transmission or whatever, like,

455
00:42:47.695 --> 00:42:56.350
they will build all that stuff into it. But it it it it's with adam bits being free in open source, you can pull that in and you can just benefit from all those security features immediately.

456
00:42:57.290 --> 00:43:19.075
And the the software itself, you know, we have, like, development branch. We have a main branch. We have release candidates. So we work on the development branch, and then we create a release candidate. And then we test the software. We run on things like the demo server. Lots of other people test it for us, which is amazing. And then only when we're certain that it's it's even though it still beats software, even though we're certain when we're certain that it's, stable and no one's gonna lose any money and it hasn't got any vulnerabilities,

457
00:43:19.375 --> 00:43:23.715
that's when then it gets merged into main. And then when we merge into main, we then create a release for it.

458
00:43:24.575 --> 00:43:26.595
So being in beta, like, you know,

459
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:34.825
this is funny because we're in beta, and, technically, that's a position where you can be a bit more reckless and move faster with software. But,

460
00:43:35.464 --> 00:43:38.765
because people are using the software in probably ways they shouldn't,

461
00:43:39.704 --> 00:43:41.964
and, treating it like production ready software,

462
00:43:42.610 --> 00:43:45.830
We we've become very conservative when it comes to our our development,

463
00:43:46.290 --> 00:43:46.790
model

464
00:43:47.170 --> 00:43:50.230
and, and approach as well. So I mean, I imagine

465
00:43:50.895 --> 00:44:05.200
I imagine you feel a lot of pressure with that. Like, there's gotta be a lot of pressure there. Like, how do you do you guys have, like, a vulnerability disclosure process? Like, how, like, how does that work? I mean, if you have It's like, 40 extensions that you're, like, kind of vetting and approving

466
00:44:06.240 --> 00:44:09.835
So with an extent and this is the so yeah. Good point. So with extensions,

467
00:44:10.775 --> 00:44:17.930
we need a permissions system, I think, with extensions where it can only create invoices or it can only read or it can or it can,

468
00:44:18.370 --> 00:44:19.510
pay out as well.

469
00:44:20.210 --> 00:44:23.990
So that that would be a a good way to limit what an extension can actually do.

470
00:44:24.370 --> 00:44:24.870
But

471
00:44:25.375 --> 00:44:31.875
because the extensions are quite simple and the framework's pretty simple, it's it's easy to look through an extension to make sure it's not doing anything funky.

472
00:44:32.560 --> 00:44:36.020
Only when it starts spending money, you know, if you got, like, an lnurl withdraw type extension.

473
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:41.795
And then you need to go in and make sure the big thing with lnurl stuff is race conditions. It's always been race conditions. And,

474
00:44:44.174 --> 00:44:51.155
again, if you build an ln URL with draw system on on top of your own into your own software stack, you're probably gonna have race conditions in there,

475
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:56.580
because channel like, fixing some of that stuff is hard and making it work well is hard.

476
00:44:57.520 --> 00:45:03.984
So, you know, we we we know what we're looking for, and then it takes 3 people, 3 of the core devs, to vet an extension

477
00:45:04.605 --> 00:45:05.244
and then,

478
00:45:05.565 --> 00:45:07.620
merge it into the vested extension list.

479
00:45:08.180 --> 00:45:18.305
And it's not if it if it's an extension in particular which can spend funds, it's not something we take lightly. Like, it it we we comb through that code. And, actually, this is what slows

480
00:45:18.605 --> 00:45:22.545
the submission of extensions down a lot is the fact that,

481
00:45:23.805 --> 00:45:25.025
you know, someone someone

482
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:27.339
contributes an extension, which is great functionality,

483
00:45:28.680 --> 00:45:34.700
but the the code is quite bloaty, and it's, like, more or less it's really hard to kind of look through all the code and then vet it. So

484
00:45:35.405 --> 00:45:38.385
that experience for us as well, you know, we've we've we're we're building,

485
00:45:39.005 --> 00:45:41.585
in the vested extension, there's a whole bunch of, like, you know,

486
00:45:42.940 --> 00:45:48.960
advisories that if you actually wanna get your extensions vetted, that the code needs code needs to be clean. You know, I need to have linting. You know, you need to

487
00:45:49.795 --> 00:45:54.855
format the the the code so we can read through it easily. And then I think more of that stuff is gonna become mandatory,

488
00:45:55.955 --> 00:46:01.069
maybe to the point where each one of like, because our our own extensions, which we maintain, again, we have, you know,

489
00:46:02.010 --> 00:46:04.890
3 people need to approve something before it gets merged in, and,

490
00:46:05.505 --> 00:46:08.805
you need to be able to see, like, well written PRs in start extensions.

491
00:46:09.345 --> 00:46:15.205
So often with the extensions, like, the big the the large majority of the work is when they submit that first version.

492
00:46:15.560 --> 00:46:19.660
But then when they submit a new version of that extension to the vetted extension list,

493
00:46:20.440 --> 00:46:25.694
we can check the change log, and we can see, you know, what they've changed. And then that becomes a little bit easier.

494
00:46:26.075 --> 00:46:28.335
But, yeah, it's a very time consuming bit of work,

495
00:46:29.515 --> 00:46:30.655
vetting those extensions.

496
00:46:31.035 --> 00:46:33.934
But there's ways in which we can make that easier. You know, we can,

497
00:46:35.420 --> 00:46:38.800
there's ways in which we can because often in in other bits, there's a lot of code duplication.

498
00:46:39.740 --> 00:46:42.575
A lot of that could be replaced with, you know, some configuration JSON

499
00:46:43.035 --> 00:46:44.095
file or what have you.

500
00:46:45.115 --> 00:46:45.775
But it's

501
00:46:46.475 --> 00:46:48.975
a it's a it's a constant learning process,

502
00:46:50.280 --> 00:47:00.045
which just creates, you know, a hardened piece of software, which you which you can use. But, obviously, still now we are in beta, so use it with caution and limit the amount of extensions you install.

503
00:47:00.985 --> 00:47:04.765
And, you know, please don't use the dev branch unless, you know, you wanna

504
00:47:05.140 --> 00:47:05.960
help test,

505
00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:08.680
on a on a on a on a server or,

506
00:47:09.940 --> 00:47:15.695
or you're just, you know, reckless or whatever. Just please just use the the releases which we release because a lot of work goes into those.

507
00:47:16.234 --> 00:47:23.200
Do you get a lot? Yeah. It's like it's like if you're making fucking hardware wallets, you know, if you're, like, building trezels, if you're building card cards or whatever,

508
00:47:23.500 --> 00:47:30.080
like, that's scary, you know, the amount of money in which people pop out. Anything you touch anything that touches money, man, is extra scary.

509
00:47:30.405 --> 00:47:36.905
Yeah. And developing for it is really scary. So it's it's it's it's it there is definitely, like, a lot of responsibility on our shoulders.

510
00:47:39.180 --> 00:47:47.040
But, yeah, it's that's just part of Bitcoin, isn't it? That's just, you know, that's the thing we work on. Yeah? Do you get a lot of vulnerability disclosures? I mean, I assume you must.

511
00:47:48.035 --> 00:47:49.155
No. Not really. So we have,

512
00:47:50.435 --> 00:47:57.930
this is all part of the the the thing in which we've been building out. So, yeah, we have we are like, with this one on the demo server, you know, it didn't affect any other installs,

513
00:47:58.869 --> 00:48:03.829
it's something we have written a disclosure for which we're about to publish. In the past, they were always

514
00:48:04.695 --> 00:48:05.355
it's kinda

515
00:48:05.815 --> 00:48:13.755
like if we're testing vulnerabilities on our if we're testing the stuff on our demo server and then we find a vulnerability but doesn't actually touch anyone else's server,

516
00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:20.109
Like, there's there's not really many point in in saying what the vulnerability is. So we haven't had any of those.

517
00:48:21.290 --> 00:48:27.234
But we have so we haven't had any, you know, vulnerabilities outside of that because that's our testing environment. Right?

518
00:48:28.494 --> 00:48:30.175
So when it comes to,

519
00:48:30.575 --> 00:48:35.140
disclosing vulnerabilities, it's something we're working on is is is is create a better disclosure process,

520
00:48:35.600 --> 00:48:39.460
and documenting them as well. So this will be our first. Like, even though, again,

521
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:42.555
no no one should have been running that software

522
00:48:43.095 --> 00:48:44.075
apart from us,

523
00:48:44.855 --> 00:48:51.470
then, we're still gonna disclose it because, you know, people are kind of annoyed that the demo server went down, which was in myself included.

524
00:48:53.210 --> 00:48:58.430
But That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So it's all it's all part of the process. It's all part of the learning process.

525
00:49:00.494 --> 00:49:02.755
Yeah. I mean, you're kinda figuring it out as you go.

526
00:49:03.454 --> 00:49:07.875
Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, it's so, like, as I said, Ellen Bits was always an amazing application sheet software.

527
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:12.260
Now the software has caught up to the application. It's become a really good business piece of software.

528
00:49:12.960 --> 00:49:15.140
And that's off the, you know, blood, sweat, and tears,

529
00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:18.474
from the incredibly talented people working out of it. It's more and more

530
00:49:19.174 --> 00:49:24.234
I'm redundant. I'm like Gavin and Treason. Like, I'm this you know, I Maybe a bad metaphor.

531
00:49:25.359 --> 00:49:43.200
But I'm I I mean, in the in the I'm just I'm not as talented as the other people working on L&Bitt stuff. So, like, I should just focus on working on some creating some fun extensions and the the, you know, the content, you know, creating the video content, creating some proof of concept type stuff. But when it comes to actually developing on core,

532
00:49:43.500 --> 00:49:46.640
like, I have to and this is cool as well. Like, how you know,

533
00:49:47.020 --> 00:49:53.735
I started the project and, for a long time, I was kinda, like, lead maintaining the project, I suppose. But now, like,

534
00:49:54.035 --> 00:49:55.175
I really have to, like,

535
00:49:55.640 --> 00:49:57.500
work very hard to get committed,

536
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:04.775
and and to get, like, people to agree to merge a bit. My because usually my code's a bit shitty, so they they come back with loads of requests for me to change it.

537
00:50:05.654 --> 00:50:09.115
So then I have to change that code. So as a as a project, I think

538
00:50:09.654 --> 00:50:17.280
this is the coolest thing about with the free open source project, when you get to the point where you become made redundant because it's pulled in so much other talent, you know.

539
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:20.500
And you have to kind of, like,

540
00:50:21.085 --> 00:50:25.905
reassess what you're where you are in the project and where you can contribute and add value.

541
00:50:26.605 --> 00:50:29.290
And for me, it's probably the, you know, workshops,

542
00:50:29.990 --> 00:50:37.930
going to conferences, doing workshops, videos, tutorials, those sorts of things, shelling the great work which people do. But when it comes to actually contributing to core, yeah, I'm pretty redundant now.

543
00:50:38.495 --> 00:50:38.895
Ben, did

544
00:50:39.455 --> 00:50:41.715
added something. It took me fucking ages to get it in.

545
00:50:42.015 --> 00:50:52.780
Ben Ben, did you hit your mic or something? Like, I'm hearing, like, mic interference or You're on my face. Sorry. There we go. I was rubbing. Okay. Yeah. I didn't wanna stop you. You're on a roll.

546
00:50:53.160 --> 00:50:56.365
Yeah. But, I mean, like, Alan Bits, great stuff comes out of Alan Bits. So,

547
00:50:56.745 --> 00:51:00.685
one of the yeah. One of the one of the extensions I was working on here

548
00:51:01.065 --> 00:51:14.935
was a marketplace extension when I was in Scotland when we first started Ellen Bits, and it was Diagon Alley. And this idea was a resistance. So I I like the the Pirate Bay model in that you can't take Pirate Bay down because people just keep spinning up Pirate Bay. So I thought it'd be cool if, you know, with marketplaces

549
00:51:15.955 --> 00:51:19.095
where, the marketplace itself is a very dumb front end client,

550
00:51:19.474 --> 00:51:26.110
and then the data is sort of maintained and stored by the the user, the merchant, and the customer.

551
00:51:27.210 --> 00:51:29.710
And there's this idea of sensory resistance, fire resilience.

552
00:51:30.095 --> 00:51:33.315
And, again, no one cared about this idea apart from PHR. I thought it was cool.

553
00:51:34.015 --> 00:51:34.515
And,

554
00:51:35.295 --> 00:51:40.829
that, had a hand in the development of of Nosta. So, you know, Nosta generalizes some of those concepts

555
00:51:41.289 --> 00:51:42.109
out. And,

556
00:51:43.049 --> 00:51:45.309
so as soon as the, you know, Nosta

557
00:51:46.009 --> 00:51:51.935
project kicked off, I was I was I was in there straight away, and I was working on Noster things. Oh. But it's kinda great that

558
00:51:53.055 --> 00:51:56.010
Go on. Ellen Bits, you know, in history had

559
00:51:56.410 --> 00:51:58.350
had that that was was was

560
00:51:58.730 --> 00:51:59.230
helped

561
00:51:59.770 --> 00:52:00.430
the creation

562
00:52:01.370 --> 00:52:02.750
of something like Noster.

563
00:52:03.290 --> 00:52:04.270
Yeah. So I wanna

564
00:52:04.785 --> 00:52:10.325
I wanna talk about Noster. But before we talk about Noster, we've done about an hour on Ellen Bits. I wanna,

565
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:14.660
I want what is the future

566
00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:25.455
what what does the future hold for Ellen Bits? Like, how do you think about Ellen Bits going forward? Hardening, man. Just like I think building out so one of their security tools we've added is to use we don't got a UK user manager feat,

567
00:52:27.270 --> 00:52:31.530
Dash yet. So DNI has built this incredible user manager dash partly off the back of this,

568
00:52:32.470 --> 00:52:40.555
exploit we had in the demo server, because we wanna be to be able to easily see all the wallet balances and then see if there's like a random wallet we shouldn't have in, you know.

569
00:52:41.415 --> 00:52:45.450
You wanna be able to, like, easily flick through wallet balances. So that's being built out,

570
00:52:46.089 --> 00:52:55.095
but it's more hardening and then and just just creating making the the code more cleaner and then also making it you just gotta make it really easy for people to contribute extensions. I think I would like to see some,

571
00:52:56.455 --> 00:53:08.260
kind of easy config JSON files, which do a lot of the building of an extension. There's actually 2 versions of alambis running for a while. Fairjaff made a Go version as well, which used Lua files to build Lua files to build, extensions.

572
00:53:08.645 --> 00:53:16.420
And that was really cool, like, you could because you could rapidly prototype an extension in, like, you know, half an hour. And that's kind of where I wanna see extensions get to.

573
00:53:17.220 --> 00:53:22.760
So just more of more of the same, really. And then, building up the secure the security suite as well.

574
00:53:25.005 --> 00:53:25.165
And,

575
00:53:25.965 --> 00:53:28.545
I I personally have a big passion for Nix,

576
00:53:30.205 --> 00:53:32.945
and The secure hardened Linux distro?

577
00:53:34.230 --> 00:53:42.570
Yeah. Reproducible builds. So if you're running if you're running software on computers and it's money software, you generally want it to run-in the way which the developers intended.

578
00:53:44.765 --> 00:53:48.545
So, we had a Next developer NextOS developer help us,

579
00:53:49.245 --> 00:53:50.705
build the flight for lmbits.

580
00:53:51.539 --> 00:53:52.039
And,

581
00:53:52.660 --> 00:54:01.055
because you have this this amazing project, which is, Nix Bitcoin, which which not enough people care about, but they really should care about it because it's the we have all these different node implementations,

582
00:54:01.915 --> 00:54:04.015
and all these different approaches for running nodes.

583
00:54:04.315 --> 00:54:12.769
The issue is that the software runs, you know, using Dockers. And with next, like, the the reason it's declarative and reproducible is because every single dependency,

584
00:54:13.950 --> 00:54:15.490
you need to specify versions.

585
00:54:16.355 --> 00:54:26.109
So if we're pulling in like a dozen dependencies into Allen bits, quite often in software and this is quite scary when you think. You'll say this version of this dependency or anything higher is fine.

586
00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:30.670
And then when it builds the software, depending on what other software is on your computer,

587
00:54:30.975 --> 00:54:36.595
it will then, you know, go fetch version of that dependency or or whatever dependency fits in with the other dependencies.

588
00:54:38.095 --> 00:54:42.200
And that's scary because then you're you're effectively running root, which no is vetted.

589
00:54:42.980 --> 00:54:49.065
Someone could have taken control, and this has happened in Bitcoin before. Someone could have taken control of one of those dependencies and added an exploit in there.

590
00:54:49.445 --> 00:54:51.625
With Nix, you have to specify exactly

591
00:54:51.925 --> 00:54:55.225
which version of each dependency you're using. So that's very important. Right?

592
00:54:55.560 --> 00:55:03.455
If you're running money software, it needs to be declarative and reproducible. And for me, it's a big passion of mine that I think that the ultimate node for me is a NICS based node.

593
00:55:04.095 --> 00:55:09.155
One of the things we built for Bitcoin plus plus in Berlin last year was a demo,

594
00:55:09.855 --> 00:55:13.650
used bit because NICS Bitcoin has all these main likes. So that's by Jonas Nick, the,

595
00:55:14.210 --> 00:55:14.710
Yep.

596
00:55:15.170 --> 00:55:19.015
Nikola, the the the the core developer who's one of the the brightest people I've ever met.

597
00:55:20.055 --> 00:55:24.795
And he he's the the lead maintainer on Chip. But he's got some great Bitcoin as he would and and and help help

598
00:55:25.174 --> 00:55:28.234
maintain all those flakes. The idea is that you could just literally,

599
00:55:28.990 --> 00:55:29.809
as a node,

600
00:55:30.750 --> 00:55:33.329
you can just piggyback off nix Bitcoin.

601
00:55:33.710 --> 00:55:36.290
And all we are doing is adding a UI

602
00:55:36.714 --> 00:55:38.494
so people can easily enable

603
00:55:38.795 --> 00:56:08.365
and enable different features of the software, which is on Nex Bitcoin. So you have BT pay server and Idle Lightning and Electrum and a bunch of other pieces of software on on on core whatever on, on next Bitcoin. So we actually built into this was this was me, like, partly trolling Christian Ruzel because I think Raspberry Place is my favorite Node project. And I was like and they have all these Bash scripts for running all this software. And I'm like, can you please just use Next? Because I because if you try and run NextOS on your computer, like, it's the experience is gonna suck because it's kinda complicated. It's gonna be hard for you as a user. Unless you're

604
00:56:10.205 --> 00:56:12.305
a techy user, then it's great. But if you're running a node, there's a very specific piece of

605
00:56:12.685 --> 00:56:16.465
hardware and software you're running on. It's using a particular piece of hardware you're using,

606
00:56:16.950 --> 00:56:18.250
installing particular software.

607
00:56:19.190 --> 00:56:23.370
So we made a a UI. So in Allen Bits, you literally just had, you know,

608
00:56:23.670 --> 00:56:31.735
apps as a menu item when you clicked on it. And then you had, like, b t c pay server. And then when you clicked, like, install, it just would go over to nix bitcoin,

609
00:56:32.299 --> 00:56:36.240
pull in the flake, rebuild the system, and then, boom, you got p c p server.

610
00:56:36.940 --> 00:56:39.680
I'm not sure whether that's something lmbits should do,

611
00:56:40.765 --> 00:56:47.345
as a as a piece of software because, generally, we're kind of higher in the stack. But I certainly would like to, you know,

612
00:56:48.270 --> 00:56:49.470
encourage some other node,

613
00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:55.570
system or build or whatever to like, Raspberry Blitz to switch to a NICS based system.

614
00:56:56.215 --> 00:57:01.915
And I so so that's something I really wanna see is is is people yes. We'll build that out so it works.

615
00:57:02.215 --> 00:57:02.955
And then,

616
00:57:03.760 --> 00:57:04.260
ideally,

617
00:57:04.640 --> 00:57:05.780
it should be a simpler,

618
00:57:06.240 --> 00:57:10.260
more cleaner UI, you know, without the the whole of Alan Bits installed,

619
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:17.355
for to to have that experience. But that's something I personally wanna see, this year being built out because I think it'd be very powerful.

620
00:57:17.815 --> 00:57:18.315
I

621
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:22.360
Civil dispatch episode 42,

622
00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:24.520
back catalog of Civil dispatch,

623
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:26.440
was all about Nix Bitcoin.

624
00:57:27.445 --> 00:57:29.625
Sweet. And if I recall correctly,

625
00:57:30.725 --> 00:57:34.905
I think we might have done, like, 45 minutes of troubleshooting to get them

626
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:36.740
their audio to work,

627
00:57:37.680 --> 00:57:39.380
because they were running next.

628
00:57:39.920 --> 00:57:46.964
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Well, you're you're not gonna do a booking podcast on your own, are you? That's that's this is what I'm saying. Like, it's so

629
00:57:47.505 --> 00:58:04.975
funny. I was like, I appreciate Nix. Nix is good. Maybe you should go to the Apple Store, buy a MacBook just for this episode, return it afterwards. But we got it we got it sorted, and they I think they might have come in by their phone, but it was a really good conversation. So if you haven't listened to that, still dispatch 42 way back in the analogs of,

630
00:58:06.395 --> 00:58:07.615
of dispatch history.

631
00:58:08.235 --> 00:58:08.715
Ben,

632
00:58:09.035 --> 00:58:20.795
one more question for you. I have one, but On on that, I would just like to say that I think that next Bitcoin is the most important project in Bitcoin, and everyone should definitely go check it out. Just just one more More important than Bitcoin Core.

633
00:58:21.515 --> 00:58:31.430
Okay. Not that's important. It's Bitcoin Core. Fair enough. But you made an absolute I've got Bitcoin. Oh, yeah. You caught me there. Once you do thousands of hours of podcast, you know no absolutes. You stop making absolutes.

634
00:58:34.369 --> 00:58:42.205
The I was just being a dick. I was being a little bit of a dick there. NYX is is everyone should check out NYX. It's an incredibly important project in general, and the NYX Bitcoin

635
00:58:42.745 --> 00:58:44.845
as a derivative that is Bitcoin focused

636
00:58:45.160 --> 00:58:49.340
is quite awesome. And I do agree with Ben that rasp the Raspberry Pi Blitz project is

637
00:58:49.720 --> 00:58:50.540
fucking badass.

638
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:53.660
And there's a episode with them as well.

639
00:58:54.835 --> 00:59:04.440
But I'm not Stefan, so I don't remember the exact episode numbers. I actually looked up which one was Nick's while he was talking about it. But, anyway, Ben, one last thing on Ellen Bits

640
00:59:04.900 --> 00:59:05.400
before,

641
00:59:06.980 --> 00:59:11.000
we move on to Noster because I love Noster, and I really wanna talk about Noster.

642
00:59:13.575 --> 00:59:16.394
You know, one of the things that I've been really focused on,

643
00:59:17.095 --> 00:59:17.994
and I've spent

644
00:59:18.720 --> 00:59:19.220
hours

645
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:23.780
and 1,000 maybe 1,000 hours, probably a 1000 hours cumulative,

646
00:59:24.080 --> 00:59:25.220
maybe more, actually,

647
00:59:26.240 --> 00:59:27.745
focused on this

648
00:59:28.305 --> 00:59:28.805
problem,

649
00:59:29.585 --> 00:59:33.045
which is the sustainability of open source projects. And and,

650
00:59:34.145 --> 00:59:34.885
you know,

651
00:59:35.200 --> 00:59:36.100
we have opensats.org

652
00:59:36.640 --> 00:59:37.700
now that's providing,

653
00:59:39.200 --> 00:59:40.740
providing grants, a 100%

654
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:50.015
pass through grants to open source projects. But open source projects have difficulty. Open source projects are beautiful because they're viral in nature. No one controls them. Mhmm.

655
00:59:50.875 --> 00:59:51.375
And

656
00:59:51.890 --> 00:59:52.790
and there

657
00:59:53.170 --> 00:59:57.430
you can build on top of them without permission and you can constantly iterate and improve.

658
00:59:58.050 --> 01:00:00.845
But there are issues with sustainability in terms of

659
01:00:01.484 --> 01:00:01.984
funding,

660
01:00:02.285 --> 01:00:10.470
support, getting contributors. How do you think about, like, sustainability of the Ellen Bits project, like, going forward? Like, how you how you keep it going? How you make it

661
01:00:11.109 --> 01:00:14.970
possible that this is actually, like, a generational project and not just

662
01:00:15.349 --> 01:00:17.849
a 5 year, 10 year project that kinda

663
01:00:18.310 --> 01:00:18.810
fades?

664
01:00:19.485 --> 01:00:23.265
Yeah. No. That's a very good question. So a massive shout out to OpenSats.

665
01:00:23.965 --> 01:00:28.385
And, we actually made a point of adding them to the to the the GitHub repo. And then also,

666
01:00:28.810 --> 01:00:32.670
if you download and install element bits in the supported by section, which has,

667
01:00:33.050 --> 01:00:43.365
like, a a link to our shop where we sell some hardware stuff to try and make a little bit of money, We also have an affiliate with, Trezor, so we have that there. And then the other one is OpenSats, you know. So a huge shout to OpenSats because they gave us a grant.

668
01:00:44.465 --> 01:00:48.080
And, we have built so many great things off the back of that grant.

669
01:00:49.820 --> 01:00:54.375
And, I think the OpenSats project, for that reason, is so incredibly important,

670
01:00:55.395 --> 01:00:59.734
to fund all these open source developers. And there are business cases for a lot of these open source projects,

671
01:01:00.730 --> 01:01:04.170
but you need to get the software kind of built and then also build, like

672
01:01:05.610 --> 01:01:06.750
again, for us,

673
01:01:07.174 --> 01:01:10.875
not reinventing the wheel. It's WordPress. You know, like, the WordPress

674
01:01:11.414 --> 01:01:11.914
maintains

675
01:01:12.535 --> 01:01:47.015
a a good relationship with the free and open source community in WordPress because they they never did that thing where they they they create a business. This often happens with great free and up well, less so now, but it happened a lot in the past with free and up great free and open source projects, is they would create a business and they would create this, like, enterprise version of the software and then a community version. And then the community version is the shitty version, and it pisses off all the free and up resource developers who use all that. And And then the enterprise version is like this paid version, and it costs loads of money. So but WordPress managed to get the balance right in the they have this free enterprise software, which you can easily go run. You can run it yourself, and then you can access all its features.

676
01:01:47.635 --> 01:01:56.750
However, you can go to wordpress.com and spin up a WordPress if you want. So they have, like, a software as a service, solution. So we have that in Alan Bits. We have we've been building out this. Again, we've been testing,

677
01:01:58.250 --> 01:01:59.950
we've been in testing for, like, a year.

678
01:02:00.535 --> 01:02:10.830
But it's we have a Kubernetes cluster, and then you can provision an Allen bits install. It costs 21 sats an hour, which at one point was $5 a month, but now it's probably about 20 or $30. It's actually really expensive.

679
01:02:11.210 --> 01:02:23.105
But, so we need to bring that down. But the the yeah. So you can go spin up an Allen bits there, and then just pay hourly. So you have an l m and you'll pay for that. The the user experience of actually spinning up an l m bits, just the UI

680
01:02:23.405 --> 01:02:35.465
is a bit shit. I I mean, it's not shit. It's a mate. It's good. But we've we've again again, we've built so Vlad's built this incredible, like, user experience for logging in and then being able to manage all your lmbits installs.

681
01:02:35.845 --> 01:02:41.880
That's cool. Like, I've spun up lmbits before just for a meetup. And I spun it up for 2 hours, and then I've killed the server.

682
01:02:42.820 --> 01:02:50.200
So I've used it to, like, you know, power some gizmos or whatever, and then I've killed the service draft. And that's the I I like the idea of these, like, ephemerals

683
01:02:50.855 --> 01:02:55.755
instances, which you can just Right. Spin up and crush. Yeah. People use that. That's great. So that's our wordpress.com,

684
01:02:56.055 --> 01:02:59.195
you know, spin up WordPress. The other way in which the

685
01:03:00.390 --> 01:03:00.890
the

686
01:03:01.270 --> 01:03:04.010
because we have a business on for LMBits, LMBits Inc,

687
01:03:04.310 --> 01:03:09.530
and the the the products which we we just copy in WordPress, we have the marketplace of extensions.

688
01:03:10.055 --> 01:03:15.115
We vet those extensions, and the majority of them are free. We have this paid extension system we've built.

689
01:03:16.135 --> 01:03:19.595
If you put in a paid extension to the vetted extension list,

690
01:03:20.250 --> 01:03:35.805
the, you know, the Allen bits vetted extension list, then we take take 10% of you know, if someone pays 10,000 stats, we'll take 10% of that. We haven't actually built a paid extension yet, but, again, I mean, so for for WordPress, the company It's like the Apple App Store model kinda. Yeah. Kind of. Terms.

691
01:03:36.265 --> 01:03:42.900
Yeah. And, like, you can just yeah. Exactly. And, actually, you can go use somebody else's list of vetted extensions if you want to.

692
01:03:43.359 --> 01:03:44.605
But we're kind of in that

693
01:03:45.005 --> 01:03:50.625
position where, you know, being the organization and being the developers actually work on the software that we can maintain this list of extensions.

694
01:03:51.165 --> 01:03:51.825
And then

695
01:03:52.140 --> 01:03:54.460
Ellen Bits Inc would then get the 10% of those,

696
01:03:54.780 --> 01:04:01.575
of those of those sales for those extensions. So it's basically like WordPress. You know? Like, you have the everyone can access that, those vetted plugins.

697
01:04:03.395 --> 01:04:03.795
But,

698
01:04:04.195 --> 01:04:08.215
WordPress take a cut of that. And Automattic, the company which owns WordPress, that's a $7,500,000,000

699
01:04:08.835 --> 01:04:13.430
company. Like, it's got a small company. And it got there nice in a really nice organic

700
01:04:13.970 --> 01:04:14.470
way,

701
01:04:15.410 --> 01:04:18.070
over, you know, over a decade or a couple of decades.

702
01:04:19.585 --> 01:04:22.885
And so yeah. So I think Alan Bits is a very has a very sustainable,

703
01:04:24.385 --> 01:04:26.460
potential business arm built on it.

704
01:04:27.339 --> 01:04:29.740
And, we are actually going for a seed raise.

705
01:04:31.020 --> 01:04:33.119
We we're very modest as well. We don't

706
01:04:33.500 --> 01:04:54.335
we're not. I see a lot of companies in Bitcoin land where they get these huge raises, and then they kinda chase their own tails trying to build big companies and employing too many people. And we're not like that. We're all kind of old, and we don't wanna fuck around with any of that. We just wanna build the the products and then roll out products and and refine them. So we we're just we're just with our seed. We're just going for enough to do that, which is,

707
01:04:55.995 --> 01:05:01.270
a lot less than a lot of other companies ask for when it comes to razors. But that would be for Ellen Bits Inc.

708
01:05:02.790 --> 01:05:06.330
And, this is a nice transition actually into the nosta stuff. Ionnostar.com.

709
01:05:07.750 --> 01:05:08.150
And,

710
01:05:08.790 --> 01:05:09.770
Do you own nostar.org

711
01:05:10.150 --> 01:05:15.485
as well? I own nastar.org as well. I'm like a nastar domain troll. We'll talk about that in a moment. Okay.

712
01:05:16.425 --> 01:05:16.925
But

713
01:05:17.785 --> 01:05:18.605
it's like,

714
01:05:19.990 --> 01:05:21.370
what do I do with this nafstar.com

715
01:05:21.670 --> 01:05:32.315
thing? And I'm thinking I wanna kind of offer service. I want, like, a a relay service so you can pay $5 a month to spin up a relay, something like that. Right? So we have it. So in our end bits, as I said, like, we we tend to build out stuff quickly.

716
01:05:32.615 --> 01:05:35.275
And, like, early on sorry. Early on with Nosta,

717
01:05:36.170 --> 01:05:41.690
we built a a relay extension. So you can do it's a one click relay, and you can actually charge people to use that relay. It has a,

718
01:05:42.010 --> 01:05:42.465
you can

719
01:05:42.945 --> 01:05:44.145
have an allow list for,

720
01:05:44.705 --> 01:05:47.125
for public keys and a a Through Allen Bits.

721
01:05:47.505 --> 01:05:54.260
Through Allen Bits. Yes. So it's just an extension on Allen Bits. We also have the Noster client extension, which is amazing because that means you could actually connect Noster to any extension.

722
01:05:55.440 --> 01:06:03.345
We haven't really, you know, unlocked the power of that extension, but it it's it's very powerful extension. And we also have the, Nosta market extension as well, which,

723
01:06:03.885 --> 01:06:07.710
again, is mind blowingly cool that I can buy you me me and you can have a,

724
01:06:08.270 --> 01:06:11.890
I can buy something from you. We can actually run the software both locally,

725
01:06:12.750 --> 01:06:14.690
and, it can just all be done through Nosta.

726
01:06:15.445 --> 01:06:18.745
But we'll get on to all that stuff in a moment. But, anyway, so I am nost nosta.com,

727
01:06:20.325 --> 01:06:21.625
and it was kind of like

728
01:06:22.090 --> 01:06:23.790
it's like, what do I do with this domain?

729
01:06:24.570 --> 01:06:36.535
Is that a protocol domain? And I was thinking, well, yeah. It should be just be a protocol domain because at that point, I didn't. So, originally so what happened originally is let's go back. It's for transition since the stuff. When the community was very small, there's about 20 people in the community.

730
01:06:37.635 --> 01:06:38.115
And,

731
01:06:39.075 --> 01:06:55.585
I was working on so so I built built the 1st Twitter client, the 1st Nosta Twitter client. And, which looked like Which one was that? It was called Nosta Twitter, I think. Okay. So it was it's it it it was it turned into Branel. It turned into Oh, Branley. Branley. Yeah. Branley. Branley. Yeah. It turned into that. Do you have any issues with key

732
01:06:56.310 --> 01:07:06.545
generation on Bradley? Like, has there been any disclosed vulnerabilities on key generation there? I mean, this is this is the the I start I mean, when I started Nostra Twitter, that had a lot of vulnerabilities.

733
01:07:06.845 --> 01:07:13.265
I don't think you could run it on Nostra now because it just crashes. But anyway, sorry. I just made it I mean, the reason I ask is because

734
01:07:14.800 --> 01:07:16.180
the pub key I use

735
01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:20.740
was generated using that client. So Oh, really? Serve me familiar.

736
01:07:21.515 --> 01:07:26.575
Ask ask Jeff about that one because I'm surprised they haven't been rugged yet. I keep waiting for the rug.

737
01:07:27.195 --> 01:07:33.970
Probably not. Shout out to you for building the client that generated my private key. Well, I started. So I,

738
01:07:35.435 --> 01:08:01.535
I, then we were building Nosta clients, but they were all pretty ugly. So I I literally just cloned Twitter, like the UI. Yeah. And then you could post. You could put emojis in. And then and then also the DMs as well. Like, that's why we made this is the thing about Nippo 4, and they're sticking Nippo 4 hate such as yourself. Like, people don't understand. I was like, oh, I want DMs in the Twitter client because you have DMs in in Twitter. And I fear Jeff was like, I hate DMs. We shouldn't have DMs. I'm like, what DMs? People like DMs. We should have DMs. And then so,

739
01:08:02.030 --> 01:08:04.930
we just did, like, the the most generic, you know,

740
01:08:05.790 --> 01:08:08.690
pretty hard. Wilhelm Duff. Well, I mean, it's it's encrypted.

741
01:08:09.310 --> 01:08:09.810
Anyway,

742
01:08:11.715 --> 01:08:17.855
so People like DMs. You are correct that people like DMs. People like people like DMs. Taran Nasdaq DMs fucking suck.

743
01:08:18.320 --> 01:08:27.905
Well, I mean, they're encrypted. All I can see is that I'm talking to you. They can't see what we're talking about. So whatever. And, like, for some stuff, they're grabbing But if one of our keys gets compromised, they can see everything

744
01:08:28.545 --> 01:08:31.364
after that. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, so if it comes to

745
01:08:31.744 --> 01:08:53.860
yeah. Exactly. So we want we want we want bad DMs, and and that the DM problem is a problem which requires a lot of time and for a lot of bright people to work on. I agree. But at that particular point in time, it was me. So Right. And and it was I had, you know, a few days where I wanted just to knock out the the the NIP 0 4. So we made the NIP 0 4, and then, it was me and, Stefan, the German developer of Fusion

746
01:08:54.320 --> 01:09:05.275
44. And we were it was funny because we were, like, sending the first DMs over the each other. Oh my god. It works. So, you know, it looks like DMs. And then now when I'm DMing people, I just think it's cool that we were the first to to do that.

747
01:09:06.300 --> 01:09:09.360
Anyway, so I made the 1st Nostra tweet client, and then the

748
01:09:09.900 --> 01:09:14.560
all of us, anyone I think anyone who gets involved with Twist with Nostra, no matter how early,

749
01:09:15.655 --> 01:09:21.995
they instantly see the value and this thing's very powerful, and it could do really well. So nosta.com

750
01:09:22.295 --> 01:09:23.595
was for sale at that time,

751
01:09:24.135 --> 01:09:31.520
but it was, like, $4. So I was asking everybody, please, can somebody buy this domain? Because if we don't get it, then somebody else will get it, and that'll suck.

752
01:09:31.980 --> 01:09:37.595
And that was true for nosta.org as well. But noss.org was, like, a 10 or something. Anyway Well, like 10.50?

753
01:09:38.375 --> 01:09:41.995
No. No. It's like Â£10. Â£10 or something. Right? So That one's a cheapie.

754
01:09:42.520 --> 01:09:49.900
Yeah. That was a cheapy. Yeah. But I saw that come for whatever reason. Maybe if it's just, you know, a short domain, like, it was expensive. Yeah. It's 5 characters. It's a 5 character.com.

755
01:09:50.360 --> 01:09:54.055
Right? There is Exactly. Got a floor price. It's like an NFT.

756
01:09:54.435 --> 01:10:07.389
Is that I was gonna I was gonna say it's like an NFT. But the the the so, I asked for a while for someone to buy it. No one bought it. And then eventually, I was like, fuck. So I sold, like, a Bitcoin and a bit to buy it because back then, a Bitcoin was, like, $3. Oh, shit.

757
01:10:07.985 --> 01:10:08.485
Yeah,

758
01:10:08.945 --> 01:10:15.285
man. So I bought it and then and then I I sat on it, and I was like, okay. It's there. It's secured. And I also had nostar.org

759
01:10:15.665 --> 01:10:16.245
as well.

760
01:10:16.850 --> 01:10:28.344
But no one cared about Nosta. I I I was working on that bit, so I I I would always say, like, I should probably stop everything and work on Nosta. But at that time, I was working more on bits, and I was like, I didn't have to work on the Nostra stuff after the Twitter client.

761
01:10:29.364 --> 01:10:32.025
So I did the first talk on Nostra, I think, in HCCP.

762
01:10:32.565 --> 01:10:35.990
And then I would chill Nostra a lot, but I didn't really work on it. But, anyway,

763
01:10:36.630 --> 01:10:39.130
I I kind of forgot to renew the nastar.org

764
01:10:39.670 --> 01:10:43.130
domain, so that that went away. But I still had nastar.com.

765
01:10:43.685 --> 01:10:53.145
And then nahstar kicked off, and I was like, cool. I've got the domain name secured, and I wanna do something with this domain. But then I was like, well, I can't really do much with it because it's also acting as a protocol page because

766
01:10:53.760 --> 01:11:05.915
lost.org, some domain trolls got it. So I get in contact with the domain troll and, yet, I asked if I can buy lost.org, and he's like, yes. Like, $300. And I'm like, okay. I'm gonna be able to buy $200. That's a lot of money. So I spent about a year

767
01:11:06.535 --> 01:11:11.355
haggling with this guy, and I managed to get it down to a reasonable price, which

768
01:11:11.860 --> 01:11:18.760
is still a lot more money than, you know, a lot of people feel comfortable parting with domain. But it was important that northstar.org

769
01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:20.040
is that protocol.

770
01:11:20.435 --> 01:11:28.855
Well, so you got it. So I got it. Yes. You paid for it out of pocket. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I so I so I went through not disclosing how much you paid for it?

771
01:11:29.270 --> 01:11:33.530
No. In Bitcoin terms in Bitcoin terms, was it less or more than nasa.com?

772
01:11:35.829 --> 01:11:36.329
More.

773
01:11:36.665 --> 01:11:41.885
Oh, no. No. Bitcoin. In Bitcoin terms, no. No. Less. In Bitcoin terms, no. No. Less. No. No. There you go. Bitcoin.

774
01:11:42.425 --> 01:11:50.360
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's what it should say. Yeah. Well, I shouldn't spend Bitcoin, of course, but there we are. It's something that's one of the addresses. I mean, you spent the Bitcoin and some change for nostril.com.

775
01:11:50.739 --> 01:11:55.954
So Yeah. Okay. Anyway, continue. Sorry for your opinion. Yeah. So now I have them both. And so I'm like,

776
01:11:57.454 --> 01:12:04.980
I don't want to do with this noster.com thing, I think. Well, to be honest, I I'll just fuck it. I'll see if I can sell it to one of these, like, people in Noster who are good.

777
01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:09.780
So I kinda put it on the market. I've put out this Noster thing saying, oh, I'll sell it, but it's it's $5,000,000.

778
01:12:10.235 --> 01:12:19.375
Was that just for Jack Dorsey? Were you just hoping Jack Dorsey would buy it for $5,000,000? Like, I I was like Who else who else is, like, a good person in Noster that's gonna sell it for $1,000,000?

779
01:12:19.930 --> 01:12:22.030
But there's a few people, and I'm like Okay.

780
01:12:22.410 --> 01:12:28.485
So so I'm like so I'm like There's no shot in LA. I was buying them for $5,000,000. I'll tell you that. Well, I was just like I was like, if if if

781
01:12:29.045 --> 01:12:37.210
I'm not gonna sell it to anybody. But if it's if it's someone like that, like a Jack Dawson, it's of course, he would do great things with that thing. And, like, he'll do more with it than I'm doing with it currently

782
01:12:40.650 --> 01:12:47.375
Nosta. So I was like, okay. Okay. We'll leave you know, I'll put it out there. So I put it out there, and then the shitcoin just got in contact, and they're like, yeah. We'll buy it for $5,000,000.

783
01:12:48.475 --> 01:13:03.505
And I was like, shit. That's a lot of money. But, no, I can't do it. So I couldn't sell it. So then I'm stuck with this thing. So I'm like, okay. I've got this thing. I wanna make it useful. I wanna do stuff with it. I can't I haven't got the time to make, like, a a a whole business or project for no star dot com.

784
01:13:04.784 --> 01:13:22.574
So I'm like, okay. I'll because we build a lot of this stuff in Alan Bits anyway, like the relay and nip we have a NIPO five extension for selling NIPO fives. I'm like, we could just sell some nip0 fives on nostril.com. We can make some nice relays. People could spit up you know, make a paid relay service or whatever. Chuck it on. And we also got the noster signer device, which we built the first signing device.

785
01:13:22.875 --> 01:13:25.855
And, BC is while he works in Ellen Bits. He's built the,

786
01:13:26.315 --> 01:13:30.895
hardware and site bunk, which is fucking awesome. No one no one cares about enough, but it's amazing.

787
01:13:31.550 --> 01:13:39.785
And there's also the Nostra IoT stuff we've been building as well. So a lot of those things we can, you know, we can sell on on us.com. So, like, okay. What I'll do is I'll just give that to Ellen Bits.

788
01:13:40.505 --> 01:13:54.540
Not give give, but, you know, I have Bits owns it. Well, it has sort of sole commercial rights to do anything commercial on it. And, yeah, I mean, what yeah. Are you you're like are you you're a cofounder of Ellen Bits? Were you, like, 50% owner of Ellen Bits Inc?

789
01:13:55.305 --> 01:13:56.525
I mean, I'm the founder

790
01:13:56.905 --> 01:13:57.405
of

791
01:13:57.785 --> 01:14:19.925
Ellen Bits Inc. So you're a 100% owner most most of all? Well, I won't go into too much detail. But, no, I mean, it's just asking personal questions. There's a few judgments agreements in there because, obviously, you know, if you're someone like Fiat, Jeff, is very is very is very important to the Island Bits, the island bits project. So there's a few yeah. But I'm not saying but But I'm asking, like, did you just you, like, sold it you sold the commercial rights to yourself? Or

792
01:14:21.110 --> 01:14:26.730
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's also the thing. Well, it's well, yeah. I mean, it's like it's more,

793
01:14:27.030 --> 01:14:30.170
if if we if someone's gonna do anything commercial on

794
01:14:30.505 --> 01:14:47.480
on Right. So this is why it's important to get nasa.org. So nasa get secure that as the pure protocol. Does that work? The bitcoin.com versus bitcoin.org debate all over again. I wanna become I wanna become the Roger Vergnost, and that's it. See. No. You dude, you're horrible with metaphors. You're like, you call yourself Gavin. You call yourself Roger. Yeah. Yeah.

795
01:14:48.304 --> 01:14:57.860
Yeah. If you never need any advice on metaphors, I'm happy to provide. But those are horrible metaphors for yourself. I was it's obviously I'm obviously joking. I don't wanna be the Roger of of Nostra, but

796
01:14:58.420 --> 01:15:01.239
it's certainly a domain we should be doing something useful,

797
01:15:01.699 --> 01:15:05.960
and isn't doing something useful. And we can by adding that to kind of the lmbitsinc

798
01:15:07.125 --> 01:15:22.489
package, it gives us an excuse to work on us the stuff and then also, like because, again, this is the cool thing about lmbits. Everything we do feeds back into the this is why WordPress works, you know, because it feeds back into the the software. So buyers offering those commercial services on lostar.com,

799
01:15:23.350 --> 01:15:36.050
it means we work more on that Relay extension. It means we work on the Nostar IoT stuff. Like, we have the hardware skills, like, we from the, the Bitcoin stuff. So now we can build some of the IT things as well and the signing devices and those sorts of things. So, like,

800
01:15:36.430 --> 01:15:43.414
there's the it it it'll help incentivize and propel some of the development in the North Star area of of of LMBits. Right. So,

801
01:15:44.835 --> 01:15:49.014
I mean, there's a lot there's a lot to unpack here. So first of all,

802
01:15:51.720 --> 01:15:52.460
the noster.com

803
01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:56.940
situation where you first offered it for sale and now

804
01:15:57.560 --> 01:15:59.580
sold commercial rights are in Ellen Bitts.

805
01:16:00.065 --> 01:16:04.325
And now you have some some different commercial things that are happening on nastar.com.

806
01:16:05.665 --> 01:16:07.605
I have noticed that Fiat Jaffe

807
01:16:08.065 --> 01:16:08.885
has has

808
01:16:09.900 --> 01:16:13.760
been promoting, like, certain tools that are hosted at at, like, metadata.noster.com.

809
01:16:15.740 --> 01:16:16.640
Like, there's, like,

810
01:16:17.425 --> 01:16:17.925
delete@noster.com.

811
01:16:18.945 --> 01:16:25.265
Yep. The array the arrangement I had with FitJaf, because obviously, Nostra is his protocol, his thing which is built. Well, you know He can

812
01:16:25.860 --> 01:16:27.080
He's not in control anymore.

813
01:16:27.780 --> 01:16:40.325
Yeah. But he can exactly. But he can host whatever he wants on any on so he has, like, access to the CloudFront and can use any subdomain. And he can he can edit the the the main page, and if he's not happy with any commercial shit we do on there, then,

814
01:16:40.785 --> 01:16:41.690
we won't do it.

815
01:16:42.650 --> 01:16:49.630
Is that true? Like, I mean, I'm not gonna ask you to speak for Fiat Jack, but, like, I I am gonna put out the disclosure that he will be on the show later.

816
01:16:50.225 --> 01:17:01.500
Not not today, but he's constant he's a constant guest on the show. Yeah. I absolutely do. He's happy about everything that's happening with nostril.com. Like Yeah. So, basically, he he can he because it's he can do

817
01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:06.540
I mean, I wish you could co own domains because if you could co own a domain, then We can. It's a shitcoin.

818
01:17:07.205 --> 01:17:16.810
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that yeah. Whatever that the handshake or whatever that shit is. But the the no. I mean, there's some good anyway, there's some good computer science and well well, yeah, don't go too much in stuff. But the the,

819
01:17:18.730 --> 01:17:20.830
he has full reign over

820
01:17:21.450 --> 01:17:32.780
some domains and stuff because, obviously, you got all these great tools being built in in Nosta. And nosta.com is where a lot of people land and is you know, because the SEO shit, like, it's it's it's useful. So he can just put whatever he wants with any subdomain on there.

821
01:17:33.900 --> 01:17:41.199
And that's great because it means that again, it makes I just wanted I just want all I want is for that domain to be useful. That's it. You know?

822
01:17:41.739 --> 01:17:44.145
And and the ways in which I said before

823
01:17:45.165 --> 01:17:46.145
would make it useful,

824
01:17:47.965 --> 01:17:50.680
but then also using the subdomains on it would make it useful as well.

825
01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:52.860
So then noss.org

826
01:17:53.400 --> 01:17:54.780
should just be very

827
01:17:55.320 --> 01:18:03.255
and this is so, like, noss.org should just be the stats that we have. So when I got noss.org back, I created a group with me, Rabel, Victor from Amethyst,

828
01:18:04.675 --> 01:18:05.175
Elodie,

829
01:18:05.875 --> 01:18:06.375
and,

830
01:18:07.930 --> 01:18:12.110
oh, bloody hell. What's that? And then we were the ones who kind of thought of, you know,

831
01:18:13.530 --> 01:18:15.070
helped build the the noster.org

832
01:18:15.370 --> 01:18:16.190
page up.

833
01:18:16.925 --> 01:18:23.825
And just kinda like a landing page. It's like, nostr is an open protocol. Like, here are the different apps you can this is how it works.

834
01:18:24.180 --> 01:18:25.480
Yeah. And then to nostar.com

835
01:18:26.500 --> 01:18:45.710
at the very top, it hasn't yet, but it will say it'll have a big fat button, and it will say, if you wanna know about Nostar, this is the protocol. Or this is not not there was that link to the repo, but, it will have a link going straight to the org. And then it'll it'll very clearly specify that, you know, this nostar.com has some commercial activity on it, but all,

836
01:18:46.090 --> 01:19:01.362
you know, in the vein of helping build out useful stuff. But, like, right now, nasa.com is, like, kind of doing a similar thing that nasa.org is. Right? Like, the homepage of nasa.com is, like, kind of It was. I mean We're an open protocol. Like, this is how it works. Yeah. Because

837
01:19:01.906 --> 01:19:08.695
documentation. Yeah. That's because, I mean, I got nos.org, like, a couple of months ago, and I haven't done anything with nos.com since. Yeah.

838
01:19:09.335 --> 01:19:11.675
But they're gonna diverge is what you're saying.

839
01:19:12.054 --> 01:19:12.554
Nosta.com

840
01:19:12.935 --> 01:19:13.994
will be more commercial

841
01:19:14.295 --> 01:19:22.590
and Yeah. It's well, it's just gonna have some commercial activity on it. But, again, it's that fine balance. If if it if it goes too far, then that's a problem, isn't it?

842
01:19:24.090 --> 01:19:27.285
But if it's if it's useful stuff, like, you know,

843
01:19:28.085 --> 01:19:30.985
selling diagnostic signing devices and insect bunkers

844
01:19:31.525 --> 01:19:43.240
and relays and nippo fives and just the other thing. Like, if we're offering, like, an a nippo 5, you know, a lot of people aren't gonna run their own domains or whatever. They're not gonna run their own nippo fives. And if they're gonna use somebody else's nippo 5, like,

845
01:19:43.935 --> 01:19:56.980
it'd be it's it's useful that there's, like, a company behind it which is gonna maintain that and is gonna run it properly and professionally. And you can, you know, somewhat trust that it's because people become dependent upon those nippo fives in in some way or another. Like, it's, you know, it's part of their profile. So,

846
01:19:58.400 --> 01:20:03.835
there's definitely I mean, we haven't. This is me spitballing right now. These are all the things I thought about in my head. But,

847
01:20:04.855 --> 01:20:08.235
Are the nippo fives one time payment, or are they subscription?

848
01:20:09.020 --> 01:20:17.679
Well, we haven't done it yet, but the nippo five extension is a one part a one time payment. But I think it's probably just gonna be a subscription. It should be a subscription. I talked to Kieran about this yesterday.

849
01:20:18.594 --> 01:20:19.735
Domains are a subscription.

850
01:20:20.355 --> 01:20:22.534
Yeah. It probably I mean, so I like,

851
01:20:24.514 --> 01:20:27.415
so something I something I've always liked the idea of is

852
01:20:27.780 --> 01:20:40.565
withdrawals, like creating an annual withdrawal. Because we in our in our extension, we can limit it by time, so you can only you can you can use it as a faucet. So you can make an annual withdrawal. You can hit multiple times, but then you can add, like, a time factor to it. So for me, like, I could create

853
01:20:41.025 --> 01:20:43.285
it seems like I could be able to create an annual withdraw

854
01:20:43.770 --> 01:21:02.690
and then, set a time limit. So it's, you know, once a year or whatever, then you can use the LNUR withdraw to pull some funds from. So then we could have that LNUR withdraw and then or or, I mean, people could still probably pay in fear as well, whatever. Like but it'd be quite cool, like, if there was some bundle service where you could if you go and you're interested in us, so you could buy a Relay, an EPO 5, and then,

855
01:21:02.990 --> 01:21:04.750
I know, you get something else as well.

856
01:21:06.590 --> 01:21:10.185
But, yeah, there's certainly some interesting, like, products and stuff we could build for that.

857
01:21:11.205 --> 01:21:23.170
The IoT stuff, I think, is huge for Nosta, and I've I've I've been looking forward to building more IoT stuff on Nosta. Well, I mean, we'll go let's go deeper. But before we go deeper, I just have a question for you. So, I mean, you've been,

858
01:21:26.545 --> 01:21:27.105
I I

859
01:21:27.745 --> 01:21:28.885
you're pretty outspoken

860
01:21:30.864 --> 01:21:32.245
socialist, I guess.

861
01:21:33.665 --> 01:21:34.165
And,

862
01:21:34.929 --> 01:21:37.349
obviously, you love free and open source software.

863
01:21:38.849 --> 01:21:41.829
So how I'm curious, like, how you circle that square.

864
01:21:42.985 --> 01:21:44.445
What copy left software?

865
01:21:45.145 --> 01:21:47.725
With with with, like, the with the commercialization

866
01:21:48.105 --> 01:21:49.405
of Ellen Bits Inc.

867
01:21:49.785 --> 01:21:50.685
Yeah. And

868
01:21:51.040 --> 01:21:53.380
and I'm not I'm not coming at this from, like,

869
01:21:53.840 --> 01:21:59.060
an aggressive anti point of view. Like, how do you how do you how do you think about that philosophy

870
01:22:00.515 --> 01:22:03.015
with the commercialization of ellenbits.inc,

871
01:22:03.955 --> 01:22:04.455
ellenbitsinc,

872
01:22:04.835 --> 01:22:06.615
and the commercialization of noster.com?

873
01:22:07.590 --> 01:22:17.225
Like, how do how do you think about it? I'm curious how you think about it. Well, like you said, I mean, we we currently exist in a world where it's quite hard to make things like cooperatives and have them work well.

874
01:22:18.185 --> 01:22:23.085
Okay. It's getting easier. And actually, some of the technology which build we're building, like the

875
01:22:23.385 --> 01:22:26.610
micropayments technology, makes those sorts of things more possible.

876
01:22:28.030 --> 01:22:36.205
But when it comes to I think when it comes to if we're gonna go deep into it, I suppose Yeah. Let's go deep. Deep into it. I'm down. It would be it would be,

877
01:22:36.665 --> 01:22:37.565
do you defend

878
01:22:38.025 --> 01:22:40.685
all forms of private property in the same way

879
01:22:41.145 --> 01:22:45.270
Yes. With the same with the same tools. So the the right to own another person, do you defend that?

880
01:22:47.409 --> 01:22:48.469
I mean, slavery?

881
01:22:49.054 --> 01:22:49.554
Yeah.

882
01:22:50.415 --> 01:23:03.960
No. I mean, I think slavery is probably out of the question. Like, people probably should own slaves. Okay. What about the right to own a big fat corporation which, like, has a full monopoly and then exploits all everybody, all the workers? I think that's that's probably okay.

883
01:23:04.580 --> 01:23:10.435
That's probably okay. What if there's an alternative? So what if you have so this is the thing It's probably where my line is.

884
01:23:10.975 --> 01:23:19.520
Okay. So this is this is the Because the the the the employee can ultimately go somewhere else. Okay. Okay. Got it. They have freedom of they have freedom of choice.

885
01:23:19.900 --> 01:23:28.025
Do they actually okay. Well, we could come back to that one more time. But the Okay. The when it comes to the means of production for a social network, is Twitter better than Nosta?

886
01:23:29.925 --> 01:23:30.425
No.

887
01:23:31.364 --> 01:23:31.864
Why?

888
01:23:33.445 --> 01:23:33.945
Because,

889
01:23:34.640 --> 01:23:37.540
I I mean, I I I think ultimately

890
01:23:39.840 --> 01:23:40.980
It should be a commons.

891
01:23:41.955 --> 01:23:49.975
No. I mean, I I think if you have a central point of failure, you have a you have like, the the public square can't be owned by a company

892
01:23:50.540 --> 01:23:54.639
because it's not a public square. Like, it just will not happen. Like, there'll be censorship.

893
01:23:54.940 --> 01:23:56.159
There'll be manipulation.

894
01:23:56.780 --> 01:23:58.800
It'll just be an inferior product.

895
01:23:59.115 --> 01:24:01.855
Yeah. Like, it's just an inferior tool for

896
01:24:02.235 --> 01:24:08.415
people. Yeah. That's why I think Bitcoin wins. Right? I think it's because if there's a centralized control over money, it'll be a worse money.

897
01:24:08.840 --> 01:24:20.375
Yeah. Yeah. So If you can change it and get corrupted, and and humans are naturally, in a lot of ways, greedy and corrupt, and you have to have a system to be done. They're operating companies are operating in certain jurisdictions or certain legal

898
01:24:21.075 --> 01:24:22.455
or, you know, incentive

899
01:24:22.835 --> 01:24:23.735
Run by humans.

900
01:24:24.115 --> 01:24:35.410
Centralized humans. Yeah. So if we can make a commons of something like a social network, could we make a commons of something like an Amazon? And would that be better for people as opposed to having Jeff Bezos leeching

901
01:24:36.005 --> 01:24:44.165
1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars and becoming the full world's on his way to becoming the world's first trillionaire? Is there a more efficient way of doing that there? The world's first trillionaire is gonna be Satoshi. But

902
01:24:45.260 --> 01:24:46.380
Okay. But it's the

903
01:24:46.940 --> 01:24:48.400
The world's only millionaire

904
01:24:48.940 --> 01:24:51.360
measured in real money is Satoshi.

905
01:24:51.820 --> 01:24:52.295
Yeah.

906
01:24:52.775 --> 01:24:55.355
So I think that I think the point I'm trying to get

907
01:24:55.815 --> 01:24:56.554
is that,

908
01:24:57.895 --> 01:25:18.380
personally, I love, you know, the the the if you've got, like, an SME or if you've got a company or if you've got it's it's like checks and balances. It's like, is there an alternative way to doing something? Can this be something which is like, we we are held as a company and and checks and balances by the free and open source community. We couldn't possibly piss them off for us. The whole thing like, someone just forks the project and then, you know, like, the the

909
01:25:19.400 --> 01:25:21.980
so that's why I would work with with Allen Bits Inc.

910
01:25:22.520 --> 01:25:26.620
I'm a I'm a I'm generally opposed to big fat multinational corporations which,

911
01:25:27.475 --> 01:25:34.375
exploit people. I don't like those. I agree. I I think they're very aggressive. And I think that corporations as we move into the future,

912
01:25:34.800 --> 01:25:36.340
those types of corporations

913
01:25:37.040 --> 01:25:38.900
well, the the invisible hand no longer

914
01:25:39.200 --> 01:25:43.380
applies, Adam Smith's invisible hand, because they they operate I mean, like, the entire

915
01:25:44.105 --> 01:25:45.325
structure of a corporation

916
01:25:45.705 --> 01:25:47.085
is is is to,

917
01:25:48.585 --> 01:25:52.205
remove those human ties from the owner to the to the worker.

918
01:25:53.020 --> 01:26:14.230
So, you know, if you've got someone who owns a coffee house or a bar and have people who've been working for them for 10 years and then, you know, their kid goes to university or they need an operation or they need something, like, they'll give them some extra shifts. Maybe they'll pay them a little bit extra. They give them some time off. Like, there's that level of human empathy, and there's that human relationship within that mode of production. But when you get to the corporate level, like a big multinational corporation,

919
01:26:15.010 --> 01:26:18.150
you lose a lot of that and and and intentionally because

920
01:26:19.170 --> 01:26:19.635
your

921
01:26:20.034 --> 01:26:20.534
profits

922
01:26:21.474 --> 01:26:28.135
are very much pegged to how little you have to pay to the people who are actually building the things which you're selling. So that

923
01:26:28.450 --> 01:26:30.230
I don't I think it's a misnomer

924
01:26:30.770 --> 01:26:31.270
to

925
01:26:31.730 --> 01:26:37.255
defend all forms of private property in the same way because you have these big fat multinational evil corporations.

926
01:26:37.635 --> 01:26:40.775
And then you have, like, the local business owner who

927
01:26:41.235 --> 01:26:51.740
has some restaurants and some bars and whatever else in their local community, and they have that invisible hand. Like, they have they're aware of the impact they have on their local community. They have those human relationships with the workers who work there.

928
01:26:52.955 --> 01:26:53.455
And,

929
01:26:53.835 --> 01:27:00.815
yeah. No. I I don't agree that all forms of private property are the same. But so I mean production. I mean, I think

930
01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:04.400
I think the problem with big fat multinational

931
01:27:04.780 --> 01:27:07.200
corporations is that they own our government.

932
01:27:07.740 --> 01:27:33.995
Like, I don't I I don't think they're they're actually competing on a free market. I think, like, if they compete in a free market, then there's actual competition, and then people get a better solution. Yeah. Because like you say, it's the reason they own the government is because it's so the whole the whole purpose of the Well, we my point is is we don't live in a free market. Like, the Bitcoin is the closest thing we've ever seen to a free market. FOSS is Yeah. Is our path to get there outside of Bitcoin.

933
01:27:34.370 --> 01:27:40.630
The the point of the point of a the capsid's amount of production, the ultimate goal if you remove the human element

934
01:27:41.090 --> 01:27:45.605
is accumulation of capital. Right? When it comes to accumulation and accumulation capital,

935
01:27:47.105 --> 01:27:58.639
despite the damage you do to the environment, despite the damage you do to people, it's just accumulation of capital, ruthless accumulation of capital. And now I'm not saying because, obviously, first principles blah blah blah. Like, humans shouldn't act that way. So

936
01:27:58.985 --> 01:28:00.365
if that's the goal,

937
01:28:00.985 --> 01:28:12.560
then and if companies and corporations currently own government now, if you got rid of governments and you have your free market, why wouldn't that big fat corporation just create another government? Because it needs that monopoly over resources.

938
01:28:15.055 --> 01:28:21.635
I mean and that's that's just big capitalism. So, like, they however which way you go, if you have these big, faceless corporations,

939
01:28:22.070 --> 01:28:28.170
you end up with state capitalism, which is the same thing which had basically US Assad wars. Capitalism isn't capitalism.

940
01:28:28.790 --> 01:28:41.950
No. It's not. That's the thing. It's not actually a proper food market. Almost like it's almost like the thing we get blamed off, isn't it, with the the, you know, the the the lefties where you're like, oh, socialism is gonna work this time, isn't it? And it's like, okay. Capitalism is gonna work this time. Is this is this is

941
01:28:42.330 --> 01:28:47.710
this like, me for me, the idea of working towards, you know, cooperatives and stuff, that's cool. Like,

942
01:28:48.075 --> 01:29:02.320
it can we make a decentralized Amazon? Can we have an off to markets? Can they work in such a way? And I think there can be a business model associated with it. Like, I think people I mean, the point I was coming from is, like, I think you can actually ethically monetize false projects.

943
01:29:02.940 --> 01:29:11.105
Like and I think you can do it in a sustainable way. And I I think I think the the issue that we've had up until this point

944
01:29:11.565 --> 01:29:13.184
is that we haven't had

945
01:29:13.830 --> 01:29:15.690
tools that enable individuals

946
01:29:15.990 --> 01:29:21.690
to affect effectively defend themselves and to to affect their will onto larger entities.

947
01:29:22.405 --> 01:29:27.704
And I don't think that I don't I don't think that is socialism, though. I think that is radical

948
01:29:29.290 --> 01:29:31.230
Radical free markets like as

949
01:29:31.930 --> 01:29:37.870
effectively like free markets that cannot be stopped. And I think that's where humanity really flourishes.

950
01:29:38.525 --> 01:29:43.344
And we just have never seen it, and we're about to see it. And all of this is the pain of us

951
01:29:44.125 --> 01:29:46.750
going through that transitionary period of seeing that.

952
01:29:47.470 --> 01:29:49.070
Yeah. I mean, I I would say that,

953
01:29:49.790 --> 01:29:50.290
the

954
01:29:50.830 --> 01:29:52.050
if if there's a commons,

955
01:29:52.510 --> 01:29:55.810
then if your if your if your goal is to accumulate capital,

956
01:29:56.385 --> 01:29:56.885
then

957
01:29:57.264 --> 01:30:01.364
you wanna they want the tragedy of the commons. You wanna control the commons. You wanna control the resources.

958
01:30:02.784 --> 01:30:04.005
Whereas something

959
01:30:04.330 --> 01:30:08.030
I think we've just gotten to a point where the technology exists, where

960
01:30:08.330 --> 01:30:14.595
a lot of these big corporations could be replaced by free and open source protocols and, like, public key cryptography. And,

961
01:30:15.155 --> 01:30:19.175
I think that's what we're exploring with Nosta that, actually, this, like,

962
01:30:19.715 --> 01:30:20.215
international,

963
01:30:20.915 --> 01:30:21.415
like,

964
01:30:22.520 --> 01:30:32.235
communication platform or something like Twitter, that shouldn't really be owned by a company. That's it's something we should be a a a a commons. And as a commons, like, people are free to operate within it.

965
01:30:32.635 --> 01:30:40.094
But don't try and control the commons because if you do, the commons is gonna turn around and give you a big bitch slap. Like, we have in Bitcoin, all the people who try to control Bitcoin, like like like Roger Ver.

966
01:30:41.540 --> 01:30:48.120
So we have to actively this is the thing about, like this the point of the tragedy of the commons is it always ends up being co opted and controlled by somebody.

967
01:30:48.515 --> 01:30:54.775
Whereas we know in Bitcoin that, actually, no. If we as the users or the plebs, if we kick up a fuss, like, if we

968
01:30:55.395 --> 01:30:59.920
have some control over the software and over the the data, then actually we can

969
01:31:00.380 --> 01:31:07.645
take control. We can we can stop that tragedy happening, and we can stop someone caught in the commons. That's the thing I'm interested in. When it comes to,

970
01:31:08.425 --> 01:31:10.765
like, lefty motor production cooperatives,

971
01:31:11.385 --> 01:31:19.730
for me, if you're an open software, if you're an open source software, it's a it's a a communal effort of people working together on a project. I think you're right. I think that you can monetize,

972
01:31:20.269 --> 01:31:21.975
a free and open source project. But

973
01:31:22.455 --> 01:31:30.070
is that there's a power dynamic which doesn't exist just on a normal proprietary piece of software. So this is the reason we have free and open source. Let's go back to Richard Stallman.

974
01:31:30.469 --> 01:31:47.725
Like, the reason we have free and open source software is because these companies try to control and copyright all the work which was done by computer scientists and developers. And Rich Stallman was like, that sucks. We need a license where, actually, you can apply it to your software, and then you can share that software. She's used to sharing software with his friends if they wanted a piece of software.

975
01:31:48.980 --> 01:31:49.480
And,

976
01:31:50.500 --> 01:31:54.920
the whole free and open source movement to me is is showing that, actually, like,

977
01:31:56.005 --> 01:31:58.105
IP and ownership over software.

978
01:31:58.725 --> 01:32:00.345
There's a better way of doing it. And,

979
01:32:00.805 --> 01:32:03.065
if you have if your company's entire,

980
01:32:03.660 --> 01:32:06.640
like, like, in product and and and the thing which you're,

981
01:32:07.260 --> 01:32:10.480
helping people access via for profit or for profit company,

982
01:32:10.954 --> 01:32:20.094
if that's relying upon their free enterprise community. I think there's this paradigm which just doesn't exist in another type of company where, yeah, absolutely, you can monetize that free enterprise piece of software.

983
01:32:20.960 --> 01:32:22.960
So I'm in agreement. I'm in agreement. But,

984
01:32:25.680 --> 01:32:32.795
I mean, I don't I don't know if we agree. I mean, I definitely respect you, but, I mean, I think free markets solve everything.

985
01:32:33.495 --> 01:32:33.995
Mhmm.

986
01:32:34.775 --> 01:32:37.115
They solve most things. I just spoke in an absolute.

987
01:32:37.900 --> 01:32:39.120
Okay. But

988
01:32:39.660 --> 01:32:46.160
I I mean The problem is in a free mark. So if you have a common if you have a a free mark which is operating in the commons, like Bitcoin

989
01:32:46.620 --> 01:32:49.235
Yeah. If somebody tries to control Bitcoin

990
01:32:49.695 --> 01:32:50.755
Right. That sucks,

991
01:32:51.215 --> 01:32:52.675
doesn't it? But they can't.

992
01:32:53.215 --> 01:33:00.690
Yeah. Would it be better sir? Would it be best The key the key piece there is the FreedomTech component. Right? And up until this point,

993
01:33:01.310 --> 01:33:02.770
it's been very brutalistic,

994
01:33:03.185 --> 01:33:06.805
and it takes very a lot of years. Right? Because because the key FreedomTech

995
01:33:08.065 --> 01:33:10.885
piece that people had was, first of all, move with their feet,

996
01:33:11.200 --> 01:33:12.820
and second of all, different

997
01:33:13.120 --> 01:33:18.500
levels of weapons throughout humanity. Right? Whether that was, like, the steel spear or

998
01:33:18.960 --> 01:33:20.340
now, you know, guns.

999
01:33:21.455 --> 01:33:26.915
But but now we have software that actually empowers individuals, and it levels the playing field. It actually

1000
01:33:27.980 --> 01:33:35.120
it is actually the check and balance that, like, makes free markets possible that they don't get captured and stop being free markets.

1001
01:33:36.015 --> 01:33:38.275
I think the goal for you and I,

1002
01:33:38.975 --> 01:33:51.380
both, we agree, is greater liberty for people, isn't it? Correct. 100%. That's all I really care about. Now and as anarchists, because we're both probably anarchists, so we both could be defined as anarchists in one way. I I like local governance.

1003
01:33:52.105 --> 01:33:58.525
I think, like, communities should govern themselves in noncorrupt ways with proper checks and balances. Agreement. I'm in agreement.

1004
01:33:59.770 --> 01:34:01.150
But, as anarchists,

1005
01:34:02.010 --> 01:34:02.670
we see

1006
01:34:03.210 --> 01:34:05.870
that you need to shed light on any power structure

1007
01:34:06.195 --> 01:34:13.740
and and and see whether it's entirely necessary. And if it's not necessary, get rid of it. And I agree. And I agree. And that applies also to, you know, to stay in government and everything else.

1008
01:34:14.220 --> 01:34:18.320
But for me, it also applies for big evil corporations as well, faceless multinational corporations.

1009
01:34:19.100 --> 01:34:21.920
And I wanna replace them with free and open source software and protocols.

1010
01:34:23.135 --> 01:34:28.275
Damn right. And, Yeah. And I think that's we any Bitcoiner, I think the the

1011
01:34:28.975 --> 01:34:36.639
the we're all essentially anarchists in one way or the other, either coming from a right anarchist or a left anarchist. Like, we're anarchists.

1012
01:34:36.940 --> 01:34:37.440
So

1013
01:34:37.820 --> 01:34:39.520
we just want we want we want

1014
01:34:39.925 --> 01:34:42.265
decisions to be made more locally. We want

1015
01:34:42.645 --> 01:34:44.905
people to have more control over their own staff,

1016
01:34:45.284 --> 01:35:03.535
and over their local communities and and whatever. And then we want that scaled up. And then when it comes to our cooperatives, that's essentially what a cooperative is. You're flattening the management structure and that hierarchy, but cooperatives are very difficult. So one of the things we built in so me, in coming from through that left lens and liking the idea of cooperatives,

1017
01:35:05.000 --> 01:35:07.880
An extension with built in in COVID was,

1018
01:35:08.280 --> 01:35:10.840
DJ livestream. So CryptoCloaks made,

1019
01:35:12.014 --> 01:35:17.795
did a set, and then they had a QR code on screen, and then they could pay. And then if you it would split the payment between producer

1020
01:35:18.175 --> 01:35:23.809
and DJ. Right? And then us in the Ellen Bits community, we're all excited about this idea of split payments. Yep.

1021
01:35:24.590 --> 01:35:35.485
So you could set up, you know, a a coffee stand. Actually, this has been done by some of the El Salvador guys. Chorizo Coffee, I think it is. And they're in Italy, and people could buy coffee. And the coffee producer

1022
01:35:36.040 --> 01:35:36.540
So

1023
01:35:37.079 --> 01:35:39.900
at point of sale, when the bag of coffee was bought,

1024
01:35:40.520 --> 01:35:48.035
the Chorito Chorito Cafe got some of the money, and then a percentage was sent to the actual coffee producer in El Salvador,

1025
01:35:48.895 --> 01:35:49.395
instantly.

1026
01:35:50.015 --> 01:35:57.989
And they they were explaining to me the how much more it's like 10 x the amount of money which they would usually make because from, like, an unbanked producer,

1027
01:35:59.250 --> 01:36:01.909
to, you know, a a bank society and

1028
01:36:02.455 --> 01:36:04.395
people buying stuff in wherever,

1029
01:36:06.135 --> 01:36:11.034
that transition obviously, there's a lot of, rent seekers who do take a little cut. Right? Right.

1030
01:36:11.760 --> 01:36:33.619
A million low, man. Yeah. Exactly. But that concept to be now split payments is is so, like, you can have, like you know, you can sell coffee on this. And then, you know, at point of sale, I get x amount, you get x amount, someone else get x amount. And then you you you you found that out. And it's the the Prism guy guys have worked on this idea, this concept that, you know, maybe I go in the future, I go and buy a laptop in in in the shop,

1031
01:36:34.079 --> 01:36:35.300
if shops still exist.

1032
01:36:35.765 --> 01:36:37.225
And at point of sale,

1033
01:36:37.844 --> 01:36:51.805
you know, like, supply gets a certain cut and distribution gets a certain part and r r and d gets and manufacturing gets a certain cut. And then when it goes to manufacturing, that payment splits against the different departments of manufacturing. So it's and then to the different factories or whatever.

1034
01:36:59.770 --> 01:37:05.390
And and and it's and tiny little pieces of money. Like, it changes the way in which people can be paid. So that

1035
01:37:05.770 --> 01:37:10.495
cleaner on the shop floor is just streaming sats from sales of laptops, right, instantly.

1036
01:37:11.115 --> 01:37:18.975
And then just the the the the the stream starts slowing down. They start getting less sats. And they're like, why why why am I getting less sats? And they're like, okay. Well,

1037
01:37:19.590 --> 01:37:24.389
the decision was made that, you know, we would pour more money into r and d. And,

1038
01:37:24.789 --> 01:37:45.070
this will be good because, you know, in a few months' time or what year's time, this will pay off, and we'll have new products. And then we will get more sats streamed in. So for now, the the sats are gonna slow down, for you and as the cleaner on the factory floor. What I I think that does, just that new payments technology it's funny because we just build this stuff, and then we play around with it in a goofy way. We make some goofy projects or whatever.

1039
01:37:46.475 --> 01:37:57.110
But we don't realize the actual impact of what this could have on the way in which humans produce and sell things. For me, that's in this incredibly you can create this incredible scaled up cooperative where

1040
01:37:57.570 --> 01:37:58.070
the,

1041
01:37:58.610 --> 01:38:01.030
the cleaner becomes socially awakened because

1042
01:38:01.730 --> 01:38:02.390
they can

1043
01:38:02.764 --> 01:38:07.905
they can put social pressure or maybe they could vote on what what different each different department,

1044
01:38:08.445 --> 01:38:12.170
what percentage they have of that pie, which ultimately goes into their pocket.

1045
01:38:13.510 --> 01:38:20.010
And, Yeah. It's a that's a fascinating concept for me that that and that's that gets me excited. And I think it's important in Bitcoin,

1046
01:38:21.025 --> 01:38:25.365
that we're not all looking from the same lens. We're looking through different lenses and and from different perspectives

1047
01:38:25.825 --> 01:38:26.485
on how

1048
01:38:26.785 --> 01:38:27.240
this

1049
01:38:27.800 --> 01:38:28.300
technology

1050
01:38:28.920 --> 01:38:29.420
can

1051
01:38:29.800 --> 01:38:40.755
liberate more people and make give more people more more freedom and control over their lives. And for me, that, you know, is a is a by building more efficient tools for building better cooperatives. It's a tooling. You just need the right tooling.

1052
01:38:41.215 --> 01:38:43.715
Currently, we're, you know, we're relying upon, like, a hierarchical

1053
01:38:44.220 --> 01:39:07.909
power structure in a big fat corporation because it works. You know, just like but you could make the same arguments for slavery. You could say, well, slavery works. You know, why don't we just stay with slavery? And so, actually, that kinda sucks. Like, we don't we don't really wanna control people. We should probably pay people. And then it's like, okay. We'll pay them the minimum serves, you know. We'll just have them live on the land, and we'll pay them the very minimum. So that kind of sucks too. Maybe we should, like, like, you know, make it so people can actually, you know, better themselves and contribute to that means production.

1054
01:39:08.369 --> 01:39:10.389
And then and then we have, you know, the

1055
01:39:11.685 --> 01:39:24.160
it gets better. Like, the world gets better, and the way we produce stuff gets better. And I think that Bitcoin can have a hand in that. And I'm looking at it from that perspective. And and, you know, maybe you think that corporations are fantastic and we need more of them and you're looking at it from their perspective. I don't know.

1056
01:39:25.740 --> 01:39:26.800
I mean, I think

1057
01:39:27.145 --> 01:39:33.965
if you empower individuals, like, it kinda all works itself out. Absolutely. I agree completely. A public key crypto is the technology.

1058
01:39:35.510 --> 01:39:47.494
Like, often this is a funny thing about Bitcoin is do you remember if I don't know how many years ago it was now? Fucking, like, 10 years ago or something. There are all these talks by, you know, Andreas and Soft did these talks about how you can make

1059
01:39:47.875 --> 01:39:51.130
the blockchain Uber and blockchain this and blockchain that. And it's like

1060
01:39:51.690 --> 01:39:52.830
people fundamentally

1061
01:39:53.210 --> 01:39:56.030
understood that this tool this collection of tools

1062
01:39:56.489 --> 01:39:58.110
could be used to build different

1063
01:39:58.494 --> 01:40:04.514
ways of doing things, like a different way of doing Uber where the taxi drivers get more of the the value as opposed to Uber, the company.

1064
01:40:05.295 --> 01:40:07.635
But they conflated that with blockchain

1065
01:40:08.230 --> 01:40:08.730
blockchains.

1066
01:40:10.469 --> 01:40:15.625
And I think now people are like, oh, no. Actually, it's public key crypto. And that's the cool thing about Nosta. It's like

1067
01:40:16.105 --> 01:40:22.285
it's showing that, actually, if you empower users with control over their data just by enabling, you know, raw public key crypto,

1068
01:40:23.619 --> 01:40:28.360
then a lot of things are possible. And Uber is a good example. Like, a Nostra or Uber would be great.

1069
01:40:29.619 --> 01:40:31.400
Yeah. I mean, so that brings me

1070
01:40:33.215 --> 01:40:35.635
to my next question, which is why Noster?

1071
01:40:37.454 --> 01:40:42.355
Like, why why do you focus so much time on Noster? Like, why are we not crazy people

1072
01:40:43.010 --> 01:40:45.590
for being so obsessed with Noster

1073
01:40:46.210 --> 01:40:49.110
and, seeing it blossom into a

1074
01:40:49.570 --> 01:40:50.070
beautiful

1075
01:40:50.530 --> 01:40:51.429
global protocol?

1076
01:40:52.445 --> 01:40:53.824
It's just such a simple,

1077
01:40:54.685 --> 01:40:55.185
paradigm.

1078
01:40:55.645 --> 01:40:58.864
It's paradigm shift. Before, it was smart server dom client,

1079
01:40:59.460 --> 01:41:04.680
and now we're smart smart client dom server. Right? We just got these relays just passing share around.

1080
01:41:05.540 --> 01:41:14.395
And by having that, you're taking power away from the server admin, whoever's running that server, and you're giving it to the people who are actually the the people who are actually using the clients,

1081
01:41:15.310 --> 01:41:19.410
so you're empowering people. And that's done when they can only be done through public key crypto. And, actually,

1082
01:41:19.950 --> 01:41:30.825
we're just a little bit ahead of the game. Like, the reality is the whole world is gonna have to use key crypto natively because CAPTCHAs are gonna get too hard. Password's gonna get too ridiculously hard. Well, the CAPTCHAs are literally training the robots.

1083
01:41:31.320 --> 01:41:43.705
And then the robots get better, and then we have to do more ridiculous CAPTCHAs. And then the humans like me, I I'm struggling with CAPTCHAs now. Do you know what I mean? It's almost getting to the point where we can't do the CAPTCHAs. So it's it's public key crypto solves our stuff. And, like,

1084
01:41:44.085 --> 01:41:47.625
we're gonna this is the like, when Beast, Black Coffee, he's built the,

1085
01:41:48.085 --> 01:41:53.620
Nsec Bunker. And I'm like, that concept of having your private key on a small dumb device

1086
01:41:54.400 --> 01:41:58.740
connected to your Internet at home, which is actually signing messages. Yeah. Some hardware signer.

1087
01:41:59.145 --> 01:42:01.324
Yeah. Some sort of hardware signer thing.

1088
01:42:01.785 --> 01:42:02.285
Like,

1089
01:42:03.145 --> 01:42:15.969
as the because the world which is just there's no other way of solving those problems for public key crypto. Like, people just getting used. And then people are like, oh, no. People aren't ready for it. It's like, yeah. They are. It's not that complicated. They have a private key. I have a public key. Keep the private key safe and assign you Driving is way more difficult.

1090
01:42:16.625 --> 01:42:29.400
Yeah. And walking Having a child having a child is way more difficult, and and somehow we have to rely on that for humanity to continue, and we've done it. Yeah. Exactly. Flourish. Yeah. You shouldn't underestimate the learning ability of humans.

1091
01:42:30.340 --> 01:42:37.885
But, yeah, people will just get used to it. They'll get used to having signing devices, and maybe there'll be devices they plug into stuff or maybe there'll be devices which they just have on at home.

1092
01:42:39.785 --> 01:42:42.420
But the we're just ahead of the curve when it comes to accessing

1093
01:42:43.300 --> 01:42:49.080
crypt because we're used to it as Bitcoins, aren't we? So it makes sense that something like Nasdaq would come out of a a Bitcoin community,

1094
01:42:50.264 --> 01:42:52.284
because we're we're used to public key crypto.

1095
01:42:52.905 --> 01:42:55.165
But then So I have this belief that

1096
01:42:55.864 --> 01:42:57.405
Nasr is like

1097
01:42:59.130 --> 01:43:00.989
so back in the day, I mean,

1098
01:43:01.369 --> 01:43:03.550
both me and you, I think, have

1099
01:43:07.094 --> 01:43:09.514
been active in Bitcoin for longer than

1100
01:43:11.574 --> 01:43:13.594
you usually remain sane for.

1101
01:43:14.099 --> 01:43:18.840
In early days of Bitcoin, like, one of the big things that I I would hear all the time is

1102
01:43:19.619 --> 01:43:20.119
is

1103
01:43:21.405 --> 01:43:21.905
Bitcoiners

1104
01:43:22.685 --> 01:43:25.025
are, you know, ahead of the curve. And then

1105
01:43:25.565 --> 01:43:29.505
as Bitcoin adoption increases, like, Bitcoiners will have more purchasing power,

1106
01:43:29.810 --> 01:43:36.470
will have more time on their hands to do things. And then as a result, there'll be all these different kind of child projects

1107
01:43:37.145 --> 01:43:41.805
that aren't directly necessarily related to Bitcoin, but are championed by Bitcoiners

1108
01:43:42.345 --> 01:43:44.445
that then make the world a better place.

1109
01:43:44.920 --> 01:43:51.020
And to me, Nasr is this first Bitcoin child project that is, like, there are Bitcoiners

1110
01:43:51.640 --> 01:43:52.620
around the world

1111
01:43:53.445 --> 01:43:55.465
that saw the need for a

1112
01:43:56.405 --> 01:44:00.425
interoperable, open, permissionless, censorship resistant communication protocol,

1113
01:44:01.120 --> 01:44:05.300
and have essentially championed it and built it out and continued to do so.

1114
01:44:06.719 --> 01:44:12.195
And but would you agree with that? Like, I to me, the one of the most fascinating parts about Nostr

1115
01:44:12.574 --> 01:44:20.199
is is there are haters that are, like, there's too much Bitcoin and, like, the Nostr social media lens. Right? Because Noster's way more than social media.

1116
01:44:20.739 --> 01:44:26.440
But to me, like, that's a feature, not a bug. Like, the fact that this is, like, a Bitcoin child project, like,

1117
01:44:26.935 --> 01:44:29.034
arguably the first Bitcoin child project

1118
01:44:29.655 --> 01:44:32.235
is why one of the reasons I'm so optimistic,

1119
01:44:32.855 --> 01:44:33.355
Nastur.

1120
01:44:33.940 --> 01:44:49.705
Yeah. No. No. I am in agreement. It's funny because early on in the Telegram group, if you spoke about Bitcoin too much, you actually a couple of people got booted off the Telegram group for speaking about Bitcoin too much because we were like, we don't wanna put people off when they come into Nasdaq. They don't wanna think that it's just a whole bunch of Bitcoiners.

1121
01:44:50.100 --> 01:44:58.360
But the problem is it's like a it's an upward bat uphill battle because Bitcoin and Nasdaq go so well together, and most of the people who are using Nasdaq are in fact Bitcoiners.

1122
01:44:59.085 --> 01:45:04.625
But yeah. No. It's it's absolute it's to me, it's another one of Satoshi's genius moments is by having this deflationary currency.

1123
01:45:05.165 --> 01:45:14.310
You create these people who get enriched, and then they feel the need to commute to pull back their energy and and and their and their resources into this thing which enriched them.

1124
01:45:15.035 --> 01:45:17.455
And it's why I think a lot of Bitcoin success,

1125
01:45:18.395 --> 01:45:21.055
happened was because all these people were able to,

1126
01:45:21.410 --> 01:45:23.990
you know, quit work and work on Bitcoin projects.

1127
01:45:25.250 --> 01:45:25.570
And,

1128
01:45:26.210 --> 01:45:31.935
similar in Oster similarly in Oster as well. We got a whole bunch of people. We've been lucky enough, you know, to

1129
01:45:32.955 --> 01:45:38.415
get have make a little bit of money on Bitcoin or whatever and and be able to actually, like, pour all of an energy into into Nostra.

1130
01:45:39.489 --> 01:45:40.550
I do think that

1131
01:45:41.090 --> 01:45:45.110
it still puts people off. Like, I do want more Nosta social clients to,

1132
01:45:45.969 --> 01:45:47.075
you know, have, like, a

1133
01:45:47.555 --> 01:45:48.615
a user journey,

1134
01:45:49.155 --> 01:45:54.615
which doesn't assume that they're gonna be Bitcoiners. Because I was at the Human Rights Foundation. They also have Freedom Forum thing, and we're onboarding

1135
01:45:54.995 --> 01:45:56.455
human human rights activists.

1136
01:45:57.060 --> 01:45:57.460
And,

1137
01:45:58.020 --> 01:46:08.825
clearly, they see the value proposition. They're like, oh my god. This technology is incredible. We can use this. It's amazing. And they download an lost client. They start spinning it. They start using it, and then it just loads of Bitcoin and stock in Bitcoin stuff.

1138
01:46:09.925 --> 01:46:14.425
And it puts them off, and they don't wanna use it. And it's like, it would be nice for them to access Nosta.

1139
01:46:14.965 --> 01:46:22.400
And, you know, you you I know you say what what you're interested in or you you're not instantly pointed to a whole bunch of Bitcoiners to follow.

1140
01:46:23.020 --> 01:46:25.680
So I kinda wanna see more of that. I mean, I think

1141
01:46:26.060 --> 01:46:27.315
I I think that's just

1142
01:46:28.175 --> 01:46:28.675
the

1143
01:46:29.215 --> 01:46:35.315
phase we are in the adoption cycle. I mean, it it it's just it's a pain point that's gonna exist. I would say,

1144
01:46:36.930 --> 01:46:42.230
I mean, I've worked with the Human Rights Foundation for over 5 years now, training activists on how to use Bitcoin,

1145
01:46:43.195 --> 01:46:50.895
other related freedom tech, you know, message encryption, whatnot, using the Internet in a private way. And I will say that

1146
01:46:53.290 --> 01:46:56.350
for a lot of them, the argument I see

1147
01:46:57.130 --> 01:47:04.255
is not necessarily the Bitcoin argument that that that people are talking about Bitcoin. The argument I see is that most of them are,

1148
01:47:05.034 --> 01:47:07.054
for better or for worse, US aligned,

1149
01:47:08.540 --> 01:47:11.360
And they trust Elon with their private information.

1150
01:47:11.980 --> 01:47:16.800
And this idea that that, you know, you're sharing your IP address, you're sharing potentially.

1151
01:47:17.675 --> 01:47:19.535
I mean, let's be honest, like,

1152
01:47:19.995 --> 01:47:20.975
it is incredibly

1153
01:47:21.275 --> 01:47:21.775
empowering

1154
01:47:22.715 --> 01:47:27.960
that I can sign a message with my private key and prove that it's me

1155
01:47:28.420 --> 01:47:29.320
and undoubtedly

1156
01:47:29.620 --> 01:47:34.760
me. It is me. Right? I I have not altered this text. This is my text.

1157
01:47:35.105 --> 01:47:39.505
And with Blossom, like, this is my media. This is my audio. This is my video.

1158
01:47:40.865 --> 01:47:42.005
But that becomes

1159
01:47:42.465 --> 01:47:44.805
especially if you're fighting an authoritarian regime,

1160
01:47:45.170 --> 01:47:47.830
that can become potentially toxic data

1161
01:47:48.370 --> 01:47:52.700
that you can never delete from the Internet. Like, that that is out there forever. Like, part of

1162
01:47:53.355 --> 01:48:00.975
I mean, if it if it if it matters at all, it's out there forever. Like, part of the value prop of Noster is, like, the robustness

1163
01:48:02.199 --> 01:48:03.739
of of data integrity,

1164
01:48:04.120 --> 01:48:06.140
which from a human rights angle

1165
01:48:06.600 --> 01:48:12.645
can actually be it it it's a sensitive thing. Like, It's something that people should be very deliberate and careful about,

1166
01:48:13.105 --> 01:48:20.220
in terms of what they're putting out there. And I think that is probably, from the human rights angle, the bigger issue. But I would agree that, like, other communities

1167
01:48:20.840 --> 01:48:23.580
the homestead community or other things I find interesting,

1168
01:48:24.040 --> 01:48:24.780
like homesteading,

1169
01:48:26.440 --> 01:48:27.500
you know, firearms,

1170
01:48:28.095 --> 01:48:37.620
Like, a lot of these things is, like, do I really want signed messages attached to me that are potentially attached to my IP address if I don't understand how VPNs work or I don't understand how Tor works?

1171
01:48:38.100 --> 01:48:47.534
And instead, like, let me just trust Elon with that information because I don't think the US government's gonna fuck me. I'm not saying that. You know? Unfortunately, for better or for worse, I love America.

1172
01:48:48.074 --> 01:48:51.934
I love this country. I love the people here. I want the best for this country.

1173
01:48:52.510 --> 01:48:58.130
The the big one of the biggest threats to my my family is my own fucking government, which is unfortunate.

1174
01:48:58.590 --> 01:49:00.850
But I would say for a lot of these human rights activists,

1175
01:49:01.204 --> 01:49:04.184
the American government in their threat model is, like, number 6,

1176
01:49:04.644 --> 01:49:07.945
number 7. Right? Like, they really care about the Nicaraguan government

1177
01:49:09.030 --> 01:49:13.290
or the Russian government or the Venezuelan government or the Bolivian government.

1178
01:49:13.590 --> 01:49:17.210
And the US government is actually their ally. So, like, in the threat modeling,

1179
01:49:18.175 --> 01:49:23.715
sharing that information with Elon, who then gets pressured to share with the US government, isn't really the biggest deal for them.

1180
01:49:25.110 --> 01:49:32.150
Can depend. It can depend because, obviously, in history, historically, there's been a lot of, meddling in in a lot of poorer regions by the US. And,

1181
01:49:32.790 --> 01:49:46.810
there's a lot of people who wanna operate outside of the the I mean, the the trying to capture their perspective. As an example. You know, it's it's some one of the best things they can do is is is release themselves from US and Argentina, particularly in Central and South America because it's not all roses. But,

1182
01:49:47.270 --> 01:49:50.325
then one of the great things about Nostra is you can, in fact, have multiple keys,

1183
01:49:50.725 --> 01:49:52.025
and that's easy to do.

1184
01:49:52.565 --> 01:49:54.585
And more and more people need to make use of that.

1185
01:49:56.165 --> 01:49:56.885
But, yeah, it's,

1186
01:49:58.300 --> 01:50:00.320
I don't know. I mean, I always feel like

1187
01:50:00.620 --> 01:50:04.960
as a as a freedom technology, Nostra is is more important to them than than Twitter is.

1188
01:50:05.635 --> 01:50:16.640
But, absolutely, you have to teach that. I mean, obviously, it is. I think Nostra is incredibly important. I think Nostra is is part of the equation that makes sure that my kids and my grandkids live free.

1189
01:50:17.100 --> 01:50:18.239
And I think Bitcoin's

1190
01:50:18.540 --> 01:50:25.905
a a portion of that. I think Noster is a portion of that. I think, you know, whatever comes next is gonna be a portion of that. I think the greater FOSS,

1191
01:50:27.165 --> 01:50:27.665
ecosystem

1192
01:50:28.045 --> 01:50:31.025
is a a key aspect of that. Yeah.

1193
01:50:32.000 --> 01:50:33.380
But I'm just trying to, like

1194
01:50:33.920 --> 01:50:37.699
when I talk to them, like and I capture that perspective, like, that that is

1195
01:50:38.159 --> 01:50:39.539
I and I hate speaking

1196
01:50:40.005 --> 01:50:44.264
for other people, but that is that is what I hear. What I hear is

1197
01:50:44.885 --> 01:50:46.665
I'm not worried about the US government.

1198
01:50:48.420 --> 01:50:49.640
Okay? And Noster

1199
01:50:50.260 --> 01:50:50.760
represents

1200
01:50:51.380 --> 01:50:58.535
I am. Some potential security leader. Like Julian Assange to the US government. I'm terrified of the US government. This gave me more than anything else.

1201
01:50:59.715 --> 01:51:00.215
The,

1202
01:51:00.995 --> 01:51:01.655
I think

1203
01:51:02.035 --> 01:51:02.615
that Bitcoin's,

1204
01:51:02.995 --> 01:51:05.095
is it obviously came out as cypherpunks,

1205
01:51:05.990 --> 01:51:10.810
and, there's that great half any quote of this technology, which can be used to control us, can actually be used to free us.

1206
01:51:11.430 --> 01:51:14.250
And, Bitcoin is a you know, it's it's it's

1207
01:51:15.465 --> 01:51:19.324
because we have public key crypto, and not just because we have public key crypto.

1208
01:51:19.625 --> 01:51:22.284
And it's like, what else can we build with public key crypto?

1209
01:51:22.900 --> 01:51:25.159
IoT. That's the thing I've mentioned a few times.

1210
01:51:26.099 --> 01:51:29.385
Me and BC and a couple of other people have been experimenting with IoT.

1211
01:51:29.864 --> 01:51:32.764
I've never really had IoT in my house before because I don't want corporations

1212
01:51:33.065 --> 01:51:34.445
and governments nipping,

1213
01:51:34.985 --> 01:51:38.364
on me. Alright. Because it's really just IoT and its

1214
01:51:38.699 --> 01:51:41.440
existing status quo framework is essentially just

1215
01:51:41.980 --> 01:52:00.980
surveillance software with a nice marketing spin that's gonna do it. And the t's and c's are terrible. But yeah. No. It's, someone's once said that even George Orwell didn't predict that we would buy the listening devices. Yeah. We've got ridiculous. They he thought the government was gonna force you to have a wiretap in your home. Instead, people buy it and then brag about it.

1216
01:52:01.304 --> 01:52:08.525
They brag about it. So, like, check out this beautiful Alexa I have or check out this ring doorbell camera I have that spies on me and all my neighbors.

1217
01:52:08.889 --> 01:52:11.949
Yeah. It's fucking insane. We live in a way bigger dystopia

1218
01:52:12.889 --> 01:52:18.110
than George Orwell predicted. He was wrong. Yeah. I mean, I know he's dead, but he was wrong.

1219
01:52:18.435 --> 01:52:20.215
Stranger than fiction, as they say.

1220
01:52:21.074 --> 01:52:26.220
But, no, with Oster IoT, it's so simple. Like, I'm literally DMing. I know you don't like DMs.

1221
01:52:26.680 --> 01:52:29.040
I'm literally DMing As currently designed.

1222
01:52:29.480 --> 01:52:41.425
A light switch in my house and saying, you know, turn on light. I'm jamming my solar panel batteries. My my my my batteries are stored in the energy from my solar panels. I'm saying, what's the readout from the solar panels? And it's just sending back an integer.

1223
01:52:41.940 --> 01:52:42.500
And it's,

1224
01:52:44.020 --> 01:52:44.840
the simplest

1225
01:52:45.300 --> 01:52:47.719
I mean, again, you're tapping into that permissionless development

1226
01:52:48.660 --> 01:53:05.550
environment, which is the one of the most important parts of Bitcoin is anyone can develop for it. You don't need permission. You can make a point of sale. You can make a hardware. You make whatever you want. No one gives a fuck. Right? And in seminarities, permissionless development environment. When you tap it into that, like so the the the example we did, it's just like a simple github.io,

1227
01:53:06.090 --> 01:53:06.670
you know,

1228
01:53:07.130 --> 01:53:12.355
web page or front end, and in it, it's just it looks like IoT software.

1229
01:53:13.295 --> 01:53:19.860
And you can turn stuff on. You can turn stuff off, and you can read measurements, and you can do all the things you need to do with IoT for basic IoT.

1230
01:53:20.239 --> 01:53:20.480
And,

1231
01:53:21.600 --> 01:53:28.205
and it's done it's done in such a way where, you know, you can send it through a public relay if you want to because it is encrypted, and you want to communicate

1232
01:53:28.925 --> 01:53:34.445
to your light switch. But if you want, you could also spin up your own relay, and that's not that hard to do. Like, the

1233
01:53:35.085 --> 01:53:36.865
there are free open source IoT

1234
01:53:39.300 --> 01:53:52.280
solutions out there, so MQTT is the big one. But it requires you to run a server at home and then use WireGuard to open ports and all this other shit, which normal people don't wanna do. With an Oster IT stuff, like, the thing we're developing at the moment is just a plug socket

1235
01:53:53.079 --> 01:53:55.420
where and the the the experience

1236
01:53:55.880 --> 01:53:57.659
is that you get the plug socket.

1237
01:53:58.199 --> 01:54:04.915
You scan a QR code. You connect to the actual plug socket itself. It has a web portal. In there, you put in your, you put in a public key,

1238
01:54:05.614 --> 01:54:07.395
and then you put in your Wi Fi details.

1239
01:54:07.775 --> 01:54:15.510
And, actually, the public key itself, we could probably extrapolate that. So it's just using the public key from the thing. But you anyway, so you scan the QR code. You put in your Wi Fi details,

1240
01:54:15.890 --> 01:54:16.630
and then,

1241
01:54:17.405 --> 01:54:21.425
you put in the public key for the the thing. And then you can and that's it. And you can just

1242
01:54:22.045 --> 01:54:28.639
turn stuff. And it's amazing just to have on your phone, like, a switch and be able to turn things on and off. And there's no gnarly TNCs.

1243
01:54:29.019 --> 01:54:30.800
There's no government. There's no corporation.

1244
01:54:31.820 --> 01:54:36.614
And it's almost one of it's another it's one of those moments where when you actually interact with it, you're like,

1245
01:54:37.155 --> 01:54:38.215
this new paradigm

1246
01:54:38.915 --> 01:54:40.695
of smart client dumb server,

1247
01:54:41.554 --> 01:54:44.860
if it just existed for IoT because I I mean, us us

1248
01:54:45.800 --> 01:54:48.380
taking control over hardware is so important.

1249
01:54:48.760 --> 01:54:55.385
Because if if it if we don't take control over the hardware, we are gonna just step more and more into that dystopian future where everything is controlled.

1250
01:54:56.725 --> 01:55:01.545
But us taking control of the hardware, it it would justify the creation of NOSA just for that experience,

1251
01:55:02.620 --> 01:55:09.760
of having, you know, IoT, which can be done in a way which is has permissionless development environment and is, you know, sensory resistant

1252
01:55:10.325 --> 01:55:14.585
and, and and privacy centric as well. And, yeah. So that's

1253
01:55:15.605 --> 01:55:26.739
that's a that's a that's a thing which I really wanna build more stuff for. And then also the marketplace thing as well is huge for Nosta. But, really, I mean, it's just Nosta is really just public key crypto, real public key crypto, relays, and RobSockets.

1254
01:55:27.844 --> 01:55:35.065
And it's like, what can you build with that? And the whole plethora plethora of things. But it's cypherpunk technology, isn't it, like Bitcoin? It's another cypherpunk

1255
01:55:35.800 --> 01:55:38.540
tool part of the toolset which we can use to liberate people.

1256
01:55:40.760 --> 01:55:42.860
Yeah. No permission required.

1257
01:55:43.415 --> 01:55:51.115
That's the key. You could do cool stuff as well, like the like the zap plan I showed. Like, it's a gazillion different so one of the things I was wanting to build with,

1258
01:55:53.480 --> 01:56:02.565
Zaps, I wanna have a a an ATM where I can put money in, and then it just zaps me the money. So that's something which we wanna build as well. It's like more hardware on top of Nostra as well.

1259
01:56:04.305 --> 01:56:04.805
But,

1260
01:56:05.265 --> 01:56:09.620
yeah. We're just we need these tools because, obviously, we've all seen it more recently.

1261
01:56:10.000 --> 01:56:11.460
Like, the samurai guys,

1262
01:56:12.160 --> 01:56:16.500
there there's an assumption of how free we are, but a lot of it's just a veil.

1263
01:56:16.885 --> 01:56:17.545
And then

1264
01:56:18.485 --> 01:56:23.785
all too often, that veil gets removed, and it's like, no. This is how free you are, motherfucker. We can just put you in jail.

1265
01:56:25.240 --> 01:56:39.485
So we need solutions like that so, we can have privacy. It just goes back to the siphon manifesto. Have you ever read you know the siphon manifesto? Of course. So many people have. So many, like, OG Bitcoin. I've I've spoke to a Bitcoin who's been in Bitcoin for such a long time. I hadn't read the siphon manifesto

1266
01:56:39.864 --> 01:56:42.045
the other day. About you talk about

1267
01:56:43.180 --> 01:56:49.835
6 paragraphs or 8 paragraphs or whatever it is. So much. That is, like, paid for 33 years or 3rd

1268
01:56:50.595 --> 01:56:52.695
1993. So 31 years

1269
01:56:53.155 --> 01:56:54.695
more relevant than ever.

1270
01:56:55.075 --> 01:56:56.490
Yeah. And it's still

1271
01:56:56.970 --> 01:57:21.420
super impressive. All the documents we have, all the ways in which you can explain Bitcoin. If anyone ever says to me, why Bitcoin? I send them the Cipher manifesto. So I just read that. And then they read it. They see the date, and they realize that because this is a big important point for for people who don't really understand the impact of Bitcoin and why it's important. It's it's it's how old it is. They just think it's like this new Internet door key or, like, like, English. Right? This is decades. This is Yeah.

1272
01:57:21.730 --> 01:57:22.230
Centuries.

1273
01:57:22.585 --> 01:57:24.364
Yeah. I mean, the

1274
01:57:24.985 --> 01:57:30.125
the cyberpunk manifesto is decades, and it's incredibly oppression. But this is a fight that is

1275
01:57:30.860 --> 01:57:31.920
centuries old.

1276
01:57:32.780 --> 01:57:36.560
And the fight is attacking all the traditional power structures.

1277
01:57:37.100 --> 01:57:39.280
So I think It's individual empowerment.

1278
01:57:39.825 --> 01:57:40.325
Yeah.

1279
01:57:41.185 --> 01:57:48.120
The the big thing which people are starting to realize now that, actually, those traditional power structures now they know that Bitcoin can't be stopped,

1280
01:57:49.400 --> 01:57:55.100
that they are gonna try and control it and and limit its growth. And I think that's why you're seeing a lot more proactive,

1281
01:57:56.120 --> 01:57:57.580
attacks from from government.

1282
01:57:59.785 --> 01:58:01.245
And what are your thoughts there?

1283
01:58:03.145 --> 01:58:07.690
I think it's like now's the time. Like, now's the battle. Like, this is the battleground. Like, but we need to rem

1284
01:58:08.070 --> 01:58:09.350
this because I I said this,

1285
01:58:09.830 --> 01:58:15.225
I went to cheat code that Pete McCormack said. I said, like, Bitcoin is just to these we need to remind ourselves the battleground we're on.

1286
01:58:15.625 --> 01:58:23.405
We need to, like, appreciate that a lot of people within our ecosystem are compromised and are probably a probably agency workers. And I'm not being a fucking,

1287
01:58:24.540 --> 01:58:24.860
like,

1288
01:58:25.900 --> 01:58:34.935
I'm not being a conspiracy theorist in thinking like like the cypherpunks were heavily infiltrated. Because they were fighting the crypto wars, weren't they? So they they want to just pry for those who don't know, maybe in the audience, that

1289
01:58:35.554 --> 01:58:38.375
the reason that you have, like, HTTPS,

1290
01:58:39.030 --> 01:58:41.449
that you can just send data over the Internet encrypted,

1291
01:58:42.469 --> 01:58:43.929
and securely and privately

1292
01:58:44.630 --> 01:58:45.369
is because

1293
01:58:45.989 --> 01:58:48.170
the cypherpunks, people like Adam Back,

1294
01:58:48.715 --> 01:58:49.215
fought

1295
01:58:49.675 --> 01:58:50.895
the wars against cryptography,

1296
01:58:51.515 --> 01:58:56.815
fought a war against the the the, the control of cryptography by the US and by UK government.

1297
01:58:58.300 --> 01:59:02.560
And then Bitcoin came out of that scene because it came out of the cypherpunk scene.

1298
01:59:03.980 --> 01:59:04.220
And,

1299
01:59:05.260 --> 01:59:08.205
the the site there's a there's a great story. I think it was like,

1300
01:59:08.845 --> 01:59:13.825
who wrote the Cypher Sites site? Eric Hughes. Is he the Cypher Manifesto guy? Yeah. Yeah. May 1993.

1301
01:59:14.285 --> 01:59:14.945
We're almost

1302
01:59:15.325 --> 01:59:17.025
exactly 31 years.

1303
01:59:17.730 --> 01:59:21.190
They had they had conferences. You know, they would meet up and have a conference.

1304
01:59:21.730 --> 01:59:22.470
These cypherpunks.

1305
01:59:23.090 --> 01:59:24.790
It was, like, 40 of them.

1306
01:59:25.410 --> 01:59:27.360
Yeah. There was a story nobody.

1307
01:59:27.715 --> 01:59:35.975
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, nobody that. And there was a story that that that, I think it was like Hughes was on stage, and he goes that because they have name tags, you know, in the conference.

1308
01:59:36.310 --> 01:59:42.890
And they said that you can tell who the agency people are at these conferences because they're the only people who actually wear name tags.

1309
01:59:43.315 --> 01:59:53.329
And at at that point, the whole like, the audience all look around, and there's these 2 dudes in the in the audience who'd been there for the whole conference. And they had the name tags. And they've been asking people probing questions.

1310
01:59:53.630 --> 02:00:01.815
And they all looked around at these 2 guys, and these 2 guys apparently just stood up and walked out because they were, like, cover blown. But then so why so they they fought this incredible

1311
02:00:02.515 --> 02:00:06.615
war for us to have access to cryptography on the Internet so we can actually have privacy.

1312
02:00:07.420 --> 02:00:16.145
And it was heavily because for that reason, of course, like, the agencies are involved. They're heavily infiltrating. Right? Why would they then say, okay. Now you're just now you're just working on

1313
02:00:16.625 --> 02:00:19.105
apolitical, sensory resistant private private

1314
02:00:19.665 --> 02:00:27.670
private private privately centric money. Now we'll we'll get up, and we'll walk out, and we'll just leave you guys to crack on with the money part of it. It didn't happen. Like,

1315
02:00:28.610 --> 02:00:41.475
they can they stayed with us in the community. They continue to be just the, you know, the randoms at conferences turning up and asking probing questions. But I would argue that now we're at the stage where we're at the point where some of the people on stage

1316
02:00:42.655 --> 02:00:49.630
have have been, you know, could be co opted and, are working with agencies or publicly agency members themselves. Like, I don't think it's just conspiracy

1317
02:00:49.930 --> 02:00:50.430
conspiratorial

1318
02:00:50.890 --> 02:00:55.165
to think that that we are directly challenging traditional power structures,

1319
02:00:55.945 --> 02:00:57.885
and things like, you know, the USD,

1320
02:01:00.320 --> 02:01:01.380
world reserve currency.

1321
02:01:02.080 --> 02:01:04.340
So I think we need to wake up to that fact,

1322
02:01:04.720 --> 02:01:06.420
be a little bit more on guard,

1323
02:01:06.880 --> 02:01:08.580
particularly when it comes to to

1324
02:01:09.245 --> 02:01:14.465
anonymity and privacy and those who wanna remain anonymous. You know, like, maybe they shouldn't go to some events.

1325
02:01:15.725 --> 02:01:22.550
And, Yeah. Like, we need to more Bitcoiners. We need to be aware that we are on a pretty scary battleground right now, and and we are gonna get attacked.

1326
02:01:24.210 --> 02:01:24.710
So

1327
02:01:26.935 --> 02:01:30.955
I agree. A lot of time back there. First of all, I was wrong.

1328
02:01:31.335 --> 02:01:32.555
It's March 9,

1329
02:01:32.935 --> 02:01:34.875
1993, not May. So we're

1330
02:01:35.400 --> 02:01:35.900
officially

1331
02:01:36.280 --> 02:01:37.820
more than 31 years

1332
02:01:38.280 --> 02:01:38.780
since

1333
02:01:39.080 --> 02:01:39.820
Eric Hughes,

1334
02:01:40.600 --> 02:01:44.060
published the cypherpunk manifesto. Everyone should give it a read,

1335
02:01:45.114 --> 02:01:46.415
if they haven't yet.

1336
02:01:48.235 --> 02:01:53.215
I mean, I agree. Like, obviously, there's there's a lot of attention here.

1337
02:01:54.410 --> 02:01:55.470
You know, Satoshi

1338
02:01:56.010 --> 02:01:56.510
famously

1339
02:01:56.890 --> 02:01:58.270
walked away from the project

1340
02:01:59.290 --> 02:01:59.790
privately,

1341
02:02:01.130 --> 02:02:02.030
when Gavin

1342
02:02:03.255 --> 02:02:03.755
Anderson,

1343
02:02:04.855 --> 02:02:07.755
decided that he was gonna go give a presentation from the CIA.

1344
02:02:09.175 --> 02:02:10.955
And that was over 10 years ago.

1345
02:02:12.000 --> 02:02:14.180
So attention is obviously here.

1346
02:02:16.400 --> 02:02:18.500
I think it what is almost more dangerous

1347
02:02:19.034 --> 02:02:20.494
than, you know, intentional

1348
02:02:21.755 --> 02:02:24.815
spooks or whatever you wanna call them in the Bitcoin community

1349
02:02:25.675 --> 02:02:27.110
is there is a

1350
02:02:27.590 --> 02:02:30.250
a a large subset of the Bitcoin community

1351
02:02:31.030 --> 02:02:32.010
that is growing,

1352
02:02:34.710 --> 02:02:36.489
that actually wants to see

1353
02:02:37.415 --> 02:02:38.475
privacy eroded.

1354
02:02:38.935 --> 02:02:42.395
Yeah. That that that that calls it they don't call it,

1355
02:02:43.095 --> 02:02:44.315
an attack on Bitcoin.

1356
02:02:45.240 --> 02:02:47.900
They call it a regulatory clarity.

1357
02:02:48.920 --> 02:02:52.620
Regulatory clarity. We're we're we're clearing out the bad actors.

1358
02:02:53.955 --> 02:02:55.815
And that is just natural incentives,

1359
02:02:56.435 --> 02:02:58.855
and I think that is to be expected. It was unavoidable.

1360
02:02:59.955 --> 02:03:03.720
And I think the beauty of Bitcoin is that it's incredibly hard to change by default,

1361
02:03:04.980 --> 02:03:11.880
even though it's permissionless, which is a crazy concept. Right? It's like you have this permissionless system that is incredibly difficult to change by default.

1362
02:03:12.864 --> 02:03:16.164
But I think that is the reality we we stand with today,

1363
02:03:17.344 --> 02:03:24.060
and and it is something that if for whatever reason you're not aware of it, I think if you've listened to civil dispatch, if you listened to Rebel recap,

1364
02:03:25.719 --> 02:03:29.885
if you paid attention in any kind of way, like, you should not be surprised by this.

1365
02:03:30.425 --> 02:03:32.525
But that's the reality we live in today.

1366
02:03:33.145 --> 02:03:36.445
So there are plenty of people that, like you said, are on stage,

1367
02:03:37.820 --> 02:03:38.960
at the big conferences

1368
02:03:41.340 --> 02:03:45.360
that I don't think are necessarily, like, paid, employed by governments.

1369
02:03:47.265 --> 02:03:48.405
But but they

1370
02:03:49.985 --> 02:03:50.485
unknowingly,

1371
02:03:51.985 --> 02:03:52.485
support

1372
02:03:53.270 --> 02:03:55.370
the same narratives and the same strategies

1373
02:03:55.830 --> 02:03:57.690
that they're trying to employ?

1374
02:03:59.590 --> 02:04:02.305
I would say that there's probably a bunch you are paid and,

1375
02:04:03.585 --> 02:04:05.665
in bed in bed with government just because it may

1376
02:04:06.705 --> 02:04:20.960
you know, you get some light high here who wants to be successful, and then they get approached. They say, look. We'll cut you some breaks. We'll feed you some competitive info. And then, also, you get to think of yourself as a spy like James Bond, and there's some egos who would totally buy into that. I agree.

1377
02:04:21.485 --> 02:04:21.985
Yeah.

1378
02:04:22.365 --> 02:04:25.025
So we have to be aware of that. But the the,

1379
02:04:25.965 --> 02:04:34.489
now it really is like for them is how do we control Bitcoin. We do. And for them, it's making it just like a Wall Street Play thing.

1380
02:04:34.949 --> 02:04:42.645
Just that's all it is. It's a store of value Wall Street Play thing. It's no longer a medium of exchange. We shouldn't use it as a medium of exchange. It doesn't make sense,

1381
02:04:43.105 --> 02:04:46.645
because that's that's the thing they're truly scared of is a political medium of exchange,

1382
02:04:49.450 --> 02:04:51.150
because people could start

1383
02:04:51.450 --> 02:04:51.950
trading

1384
02:04:52.330 --> 02:04:58.075
stuff. Governments could start trading in this thing, which is apolitical and and can't be coerced and stopped by other governments.

1385
02:05:01.015 --> 02:05:02.955
So yeah. It's no. It's funny. I heard

1386
02:05:04.190 --> 02:05:20.285
one of the talks. I was watching one of the talks from cheat code. I think it was Cali had his mask on when he's on stage. Yep. And Orange mask. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then someone in the chat was like, oh my god. Another Bitcoin and a mask. They they make they they make Bitcoin look so, you know,

1387
02:05:21.300 --> 02:05:33.885
dark and, you know, why why is he wearing this mask? It's so ridiculous. And I'm just like, oh, but, damn, man. Like, the the Bitcoiners have changed. Like, there are some people here, like you say, who they wanna I don't know. They feel legitimizing Bitcoin is by

1388
02:05:34.745 --> 02:05:35.965
making it more transparent,

1389
02:05:36.665 --> 02:05:37.645
and more regulated.

1390
02:05:38.420 --> 02:05:43.320
And it's a it's a slippery slope. But, ultimately, all they can ever do is just stagger growth, so whatever.

1391
02:05:44.100 --> 02:05:46.600
Like, the growth of it as a a medium of exchange,

1392
02:05:47.385 --> 02:05:49.245
all they can do is is slow that down.

1393
02:05:49.865 --> 02:05:54.185
And then also it's it's removing the trusted third parties. That's the thing they're truly terrified of because,

1394
02:05:54.825 --> 02:05:57.540
that's how people are empowered, you know, by the

1395
02:05:58.080 --> 02:05:59.860
the the the banking industry,

1396
02:06:00.880 --> 02:06:07.065
controlling the production of money. And that's the thing which they wanna they wanna they don't they wanna stop from happening.

1397
02:06:08.485 --> 02:06:13.210
And all they can ever do is is just slow the growth of that. But, I mean, they're they're certainly, you know,

1398
02:06:14.170 --> 02:06:15.150
making the effort

1399
02:06:15.530 --> 02:06:24.415
to do it, and it's, yeah, it's well within their interest. Because, I mean, it is you know, it's Bitcoin exists to disempower them. That's why that's why we're here. So

1400
02:06:25.755 --> 02:06:26.255
yeah.

1401
02:06:26.875 --> 02:06:29.215
So it's it's, it's we we got some

1402
02:06:30.349 --> 02:06:32.210
rough rough battles ahead, I think.

1403
02:06:33.309 --> 02:06:35.250
The way I like to look at it is,

1404
02:06:38.655 --> 02:06:40.435
the way I like to look at it is

1405
02:06:40.895 --> 02:06:42.995
is darkness was inevitable.

1406
02:06:46.815 --> 02:06:47.315
And

1407
02:06:48.060 --> 02:06:50.240
Bitcoin, Nasr, other FreedomTech,

1408
02:06:51.340 --> 02:06:51.840
like,

1409
02:06:52.940 --> 02:06:56.240
should result my expectation is it should result

1410
02:06:56.985 --> 02:06:57.885
in the darkness,

1411
02:06:59.145 --> 02:07:02.525
being a a smaller, less harsh period,

1412
02:07:03.465 --> 02:07:05.020
before we reach the light.

1413
02:07:05.900 --> 02:07:14.480
Yeah. But but if if if you, like, just took out like, pretend Bitcoin doesn't exist, pretend Nasdaq doesn't exist, pretend the greater false ecosystem doesn't exist,

1414
02:07:15.185 --> 02:07:18.805
We were still gonna get the darkness. Like, it was still gonna be bad.

1415
02:07:19.425 --> 02:07:22.565
It's gonna be less bad. I think it'll be less bad.

1416
02:07:23.990 --> 02:07:26.010
But to those of us that are

1417
02:07:26.710 --> 02:07:28.810
front and center and public faces,

1418
02:07:31.465 --> 02:07:33.885
We have our work cut out for us. Like, it's not

1419
02:07:35.065 --> 02:07:37.725
Yeah. It's not gonna be necessarily great.

1420
02:07:38.310 --> 02:07:45.770
No. This is gonna be this is gonna be when it gets hard, I think. Yeah. It's the it's the it's the it's the correct tooling. It's like the printing press, isn't it? Like, you have widespread widespread

1421
02:07:46.070 --> 02:07:46.570
democracy

1422
02:07:49.015 --> 02:07:52.955
because the printing press was invented so people could actually, like, you know, communicate

1423
02:07:53.495 --> 02:07:55.780
with each other. And then and then more people could read,

1424
02:07:56.659 --> 02:08:18.835
because you didn't you know, the Bible wasn't such a Right. The Bible was easy. It's a print for people to access, and then they didn't have to trust the the the priest who was telling them what the Bible the bible the priest would stand up and tell everybody that in the Bible, it says everyone was a sheep and needs to pay a sheep tax and give them some money. And then, finally, when people got access to Bible, it was like, well, actually, this isn't this isn't correct. This is bollocks and empowered people. So you get the right tooling that empowers people and,

1425
02:08:20.195 --> 02:08:22.775
and, just like, the Internet empowered people.

1426
02:08:23.155 --> 02:08:26.855
And now we've got the access to public key crypto, which is empowering people.

1427
02:08:28.250 --> 02:08:30.349
And then it does directly attack

1428
02:08:30.809 --> 02:08:34.030
those power structures which have built their power base on

1429
02:08:34.650 --> 02:08:36.909
centralization and of control over data.

1430
02:08:38.795 --> 02:08:39.535
But yeah.

1431
02:08:39.995 --> 02:08:46.849
Yeah. It'd be it'd be interesting to see where we all are this time next year because it's only the beginning of the year, really, and,

1432
02:08:47.230 --> 02:08:49.170
crikey, there's been a lot going on.

1433
02:08:50.190 --> 02:08:51.389
All I can say is,

1434
02:08:53.664 --> 02:08:55.284
it's all about the ride or dies.

1435
02:08:56.304 --> 02:09:03.630
It's all about the ride or dies. The overwhelming majority of people can essentially be treated like they're robots with flesh skin.

1436
02:09:05.130 --> 02:09:08.750
And you have to focus on the rider dies, and the rider dies need to stand together.

1437
02:09:10.585 --> 02:09:13.485
What's that? Because without us, there's there's nothing. What?

1438
02:09:13.864 --> 02:09:16.204
What's that? Sorry. The the the the right what?

1439
02:09:16.670 --> 02:09:17.890
The rider dies.

1440
02:09:19.070 --> 02:09:25.025
Ride or die. Oh, ride or die. Ride or die, man. You're either in it or you're not. You're either

1441
02:09:25.405 --> 02:09:30.945
you're either a part of the movement or you're not. And I I this whole idea of, like, mainstream adoption or whatever,

1442
02:09:32.220 --> 02:09:34.320
majority just robots with flesh skin.

1443
02:09:34.860 --> 02:09:36.320
And they're not actually

1444
02:09:38.060 --> 02:09:42.925
they're not a part of it. They're benefiting from it. Yeah. And

1445
02:09:43.304 --> 02:09:44.765
they might have an opinion,

1446
02:09:45.945 --> 02:09:48.364
but they're not actually part of the movement.

1447
02:09:49.480 --> 02:09:53.340
And time is scarce. Time is the only thing more scarce than Bitcoin.

1448
02:09:54.200 --> 02:09:54.700
And

1449
02:09:55.160 --> 02:10:02.215
you gotta focus on the rider dies. You can't you can't focus on anyone else. It's just it's it's not worth our time.

1450
02:10:02.835 --> 02:10:07.559
But it's key that the that that that we actually stand together. That we actually

1451
02:10:08.900 --> 02:10:11.960
say no. Like, it's we we will not fucking

1452
02:10:12.900 --> 02:10:16.565
do this. We're we we will not be a part of this,

1453
02:10:17.825 --> 02:10:18.325
oppression,

1454
02:10:19.105 --> 02:10:29.659
and and we want the world to be a better place. We want our kids to grow up in a better world. We want our grandkids to grow up in a better world. We want the light to come through the darkness

1455
02:10:29.960 --> 02:10:30.460
sooner.

1456
02:10:31.239 --> 02:10:38.094
That is what people should care about, and the overwhelming majority of people don't care about, but a small subset do.

1457
02:10:38.395 --> 02:10:41.775
And I am purely focused on the small subset.

1458
02:10:42.220 --> 02:10:45.600
Like, that's all that that matters. And I've gotten a lot of shit.

1459
02:10:46.380 --> 02:10:52.974
Matt, I mean, I I have a lot of respect for Beauty On. Beauty On called me out. He was like, how can you delete a 200000

1460
02:10:53.355 --> 02:10:54.494
person Twitter account?

1461
02:10:55.034 --> 02:10:58.655
Because I just don't give a shit. Those people don't matter.

1462
02:10:59.450 --> 02:11:08.670
They matter, but they they don't matter to the movement. They they're not they're they're not bought in. They don't have skin in the game. What matters is the rider dies. If there's

1463
02:11:09.435 --> 02:11:12.015
I I I think the numbers on Nostra are actually,

1464
02:11:13.195 --> 02:11:20.850
better than the numbers that a lot of Nostra people say. But even if it's just 10,000 people, even if it's just 20,000 people,

1465
02:11:22.110 --> 02:11:30.175
they're the ride or dies. They're the ones who actually care and and wanna push this moving forward, and and and they're the people that that we actually need to stand together with.

1466
02:11:30.715 --> 02:11:33.375
They're not you know, the others are are,

1467
02:11:34.370 --> 02:11:44.495
you know, just zombies. And they're unfortunately, maybe they won't be in the future. I expect them to figure it out eventually and see the need and and move forward. But right now, they're just completely

1468
02:11:45.195 --> 02:11:45.695
irrelevant.

1469
02:11:46.635 --> 02:11:48.635
The the the ride or die Huddler type,

1470
02:11:50.050 --> 02:11:52.630
in it, you know, the that

1471
02:11:53.090 --> 02:11:53.590
bedrock

1472
02:11:54.530 --> 02:12:00.465
like, the reason Bitcoin has value is because that bedrock increases in size, doesn't it, of ride or die puddler

1473
02:12:00.845 --> 02:12:07.665
in it for the long game? And then, you know, you come in for whatever reason. Right? And then you realize, actually, this thing

1474
02:12:09.090 --> 02:12:11.510
can have impact to make the world a better place.

1475
02:12:11.969 --> 02:12:13.190
And then, actually,

1476
02:12:13.570 --> 02:12:18.505
there's a whole bunch of bunch of different ways in which you can contribute. You can create content, or you can,

1477
02:12:18.885 --> 02:12:29.210
you know, create a business or you can create a print up a source piece of software. You can contribute to a piece of software. Or you can do this. You can do that. You can just running software, whatever. Like, you start to realize that you can

1478
02:12:29.750 --> 02:12:32.329
have impact. And I think for a lot of people,

1479
02:12:33.030 --> 02:12:35.050
a lot of humans, when you live in,

1480
02:12:37.275 --> 02:12:37.775
representative

1481
02:12:38.155 --> 02:12:38.655
democracy

1482
02:12:39.195 --> 02:12:42.655
structures, less direct democracy structures, you feel disempowered.

1483
02:12:42.955 --> 02:12:54.210
Everything's the same status quo. People the rich people get richer, and the poor people get poorer. And so the world's going to shit in a handbag. And you don't really see any which way in in which you can have, like, positive impact.

1484
02:12:54.745 --> 02:12:55.405
And then

1485
02:12:55.705 --> 02:12:58.765
you when you what for whatever reason, I think you stumble across Bitcoin,

1486
02:12:59.225 --> 02:13:01.864
it's like a bug which niggles in your brain,

1487
02:13:02.265 --> 02:13:09.889
and then you realize that you you can have positive impact. And then that's a social a social awakening. It's it's a it's it's a point in which

1488
02:13:10.349 --> 02:13:18.094
you realize that you're you do matter. Like, you are part of the thing which makes the network work. You are a user, and the user is important.

1489
02:13:20.850 --> 02:13:23.830
And, yeah. So I I I the the the the robots,

1490
02:13:24.449 --> 02:13:25.270
they awaken,

1491
02:13:25.650 --> 02:13:30.255
and they become part of the ride or die bedrock, which all this shit sits on top of.

1492
02:13:32.315 --> 02:13:40.929
But, yeah, I mean, props to props to props to deleting that Twitter account. I'm not yet I've not yet done it yet, and I feel like such a twat when I my social followers do you have on Twitter?

1493
02:13:41.710 --> 02:13:45.329
Like, 2020 19,000 or something. I deleted a 200,000

1494
02:13:45.789 --> 02:13:57.349
plus It's amazing. Twitter account with a free blue check. You got Yeah. It's amazing. Delete. Be the change you wanna see in the world. Yeah, man. Yeah. I haven't yet done it. And my thumb sometimes default to Twitter, and I'm not. And, legitimately,

1495
02:13:57.969 --> 02:13:59.829
my Nostra experience is better.

1496
02:14:00.210 --> 02:14:04.469
This is what which I think is incredible is I am not sacrificing anything by using Nostra

1497
02:14:04.865 --> 02:14:12.725
more. No. I I use Amethyst, and it's a it's a bare user experience. Like, the the Twitter user experience, particularly with since Elon's taken it, like, it's it sucks.

1498
02:14:13.185 --> 02:14:13.685
And,

1499
02:14:15.120 --> 02:14:22.665
but I just I it's like when I if I've got a project and I wanna show the project, I'm like, oh, I should probably post it on Twitter and then and then Delete it, Ben.

1500
02:14:23.205 --> 02:14:29.225
Until you do, I have that over you. Yeah. You do. And when I saw fate after this, well, I was like, man, that's Did he really?

1501
02:14:30.010 --> 02:14:40.335
Yeah. I deleted his Twitter account. I got that I got I got that stubborn Brazilian to fucking delete his Twitter account. He did it? Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. He did it. Oh, yeah. I can't wait to tell my grandchildren.

1502
02:14:40.955 --> 02:14:44.255
There's there's peer pressure. I feel I feel I have to do it. Maybe I'll do it

1503
02:14:44.590 --> 02:14:48.610
this week. I'm not on the list. Delete to worry about it. Ben

1504
02:14:48.910 --> 02:14:50.690
Ben, this has been fucking awesome.

1505
02:14:53.205 --> 02:15:00.025
Before we wrap, I wanna get your final thoughts. But before that before that, I just wanna thank the freaks who joined us in the live chat.

1506
02:15:01.020 --> 02:15:02.400
You guys make this show

1507
02:15:03.020 --> 02:15:05.840
really, really unique. You guys make this so special.

1508
02:15:06.380 --> 02:15:07.440
Completely unmoderated,

1509
02:15:07.900 --> 02:15:16.705
uncensored live chat. You guys are are partially the hosts alongside me, so thank you for joining the live chat. And huge shout out to the freaks who continue to support the show with Bitcoin,

1510
02:15:17.140 --> 02:15:21.560
whether that's through Fountain, Breeze, other podcasting 2 point o apps, or through the ZapStream.

1511
02:15:22.820 --> 02:15:29.365
We have no ads responses here at dispatch. This is purely value for value. So if you find value, thank you for sharing your value.

1512
02:15:30.545 --> 02:15:33.845
We had a big, big donation since yesterday.

1513
02:15:34.560 --> 02:15:37.220
I mean, this has been a big week for dispatch, just

1514
02:15:37.680 --> 02:15:38.980
episode, episode, episode.

1515
02:15:39.680 --> 02:15:41.940
But we had Natgas Immersion sent

1516
02:15:42.465 --> 02:15:46.325
100 k sats through podcasting 2 point o. So thank you, Natgas Immersion.

1517
02:15:46.945 --> 02:15:48.085
I appreciate you.

1518
02:15:49.500 --> 02:15:54.560
But, yeah, if you don't have stats to spare, easiest way is to share the show with friends and family.

1519
02:15:55.340 --> 02:15:57.520
Every podcast app, search Cylinder Dispatch.

1520
02:15:58.085 --> 02:16:00.105
YouTube, till we're banned, Cilla dispatch.

1521
02:16:01.525 --> 02:16:03.305
Nope. No longer using Twitch.

1522
02:16:04.810 --> 02:16:06.430
All the links are still dispatch.com.

1523
02:16:06.810 --> 02:16:08.830
We're on YouTube until they ban us.

1524
02:16:09.210 --> 02:16:10.910
The YouTube usually doesn't include

1525
02:16:11.530 --> 02:16:13.470
the end video depending on how,

1526
02:16:14.085 --> 02:16:18.265
but hurt, the individual artists are that I'm sharing their music

1527
02:16:18.645 --> 02:16:21.225
to a wider audience. They should be grateful.

1528
02:16:22.325 --> 02:16:25.290
But with all that said, Ben, this has been fucking awesome.

1529
02:16:25.750 --> 02:16:27.050
One thing I would love

1530
02:16:27.670 --> 02:16:31.369
is for you to agree to come on more often. Would you agree to that?

1531
02:16:32.895 --> 02:16:48.420
No, man. Yeah. Totally. It'd be another it's it's always wacky to me that I've not been on it. I was like Yeah. Or just you know? But I feel like we could talk for hours. Like, we're we're 2 hours and 15 minutes in, and, unfortunately, I do have something I have to deal with in 13 minutes.

1532
02:16:49.175 --> 02:16:49.675
But

1533
02:16:50.375 --> 02:17:01.840
I feel like this has been we could go on forever and ever. So I would just rather if you were just a repeat guest, like, this would be a great deal for me. Yeah. Totally. And we can I can I can show you the the some of the stuff we've been building?

1534
02:17:02.380 --> 02:17:02.880
The,

1535
02:17:03.420 --> 02:17:05.535
I think more and more like you say, with

1536
02:17:06.415 --> 02:17:08.915
a hell of a lot of new people coming into to Bitcoin,

1537
02:17:09.535 --> 02:17:13.635
I think that I've noticed that a lot of us who've been here for a while, we're all

1538
02:17:14.040 --> 02:17:16.940
talking off the same sheet. Like, we're all we're all here for the same reason.

1539
02:17:17.320 --> 02:17:17.640
And,

1540
02:17:18.200 --> 02:17:22.625
yeah, it's great to speak to a a, you know, a Bitcoin who's been around for a while. And

1541
02:17:23.185 --> 02:17:31.285
not saying that anyone comes in new isn't doesn't have value to add. Of course, they do. And thank you for thank you for being here. And the cool part of the movement is you can come in fresh.

1542
02:17:31.939 --> 02:17:34.760
Yeah. It's important. Like, your contributions matter.

1543
02:17:35.140 --> 02:17:44.024
Yeah. Ben. But it's always a pleasure to speak to someone who's been around for a while. So, yeah, thanks for having me. What did do you have any final thoughts for the audience before we wrap?

1544
02:17:44.404 --> 02:17:51.930
Not really. Just thanks for being here. Continue to, like, try and contribute in every which way you can. One of the best ways in which you can contribute to,

1545
02:17:53.430 --> 02:18:00.170
software and hardware is just to run the stuff and and play around with it. And then if you find any issues, feed them back to the software projects.

1546
02:18:00.585 --> 02:18:01.465
That's an amazing

1547
02:18:02.024 --> 02:18:05.965
and then also join the community groups. So in LMBbits, we're on Telegram,

1548
02:18:06.665 --> 02:18:10.045
LMBbits, and then Maker Bits as well is also on Telegram. They're nice communities.

1549
02:18:10.430 --> 02:18:21.515
Man, that's one of the first things we with Nosta, like, the idea was the first thing we're gonna build, the first client we're gonna build was a a Telegram alternative. So we could actually take the Nosto chat off Telegram and put it on the Telegram alternative. And,

1550
02:18:23.115 --> 02:18:24.795
I'm yet to kind of really see that, but,

1551
02:18:25.435 --> 02:18:27.330
I I hope that happens soon. But, yeah,

1552
02:18:28.130 --> 02:18:33.410
just get involved. Get your hands dirty. We're all in for a bit of a fight over the next year. And,

1553
02:18:34.130 --> 02:18:35.670
you know, if we all band together,

1554
02:18:36.705 --> 02:18:38.564
ride or die in the trenches

1555
02:18:39.745 --> 02:18:42.645
with our bayonets ready to take on the fucking

1556
02:18:43.104 --> 02:18:46.300
the man. Yeah. Fuck the banks and fight the bastards.

1557
02:18:46.760 --> 02:18:47.500
That's it.

1558
02:18:47.880 --> 02:18:52.199
Damn right. Well, Ben, I appreciate you. Thanks for joining. Thanks for all the work you do. And,

1559
02:18:52.865 --> 02:18:55.125
to everything Satoshi in the comments,

1560
02:18:55.905 --> 02:18:58.325
if Elon makes Twitter a nostril client,

1561
02:18:58.945 --> 02:19:06.579
I will be incredibly proud of him, and I will be happy to see it. But I do not expect that because he wants power and control.

1562
02:19:07.199 --> 02:19:09.060
And, those who tell you otherwise

1563
02:19:09.655 --> 02:19:10.635
are just enjoying

1564
02:19:11.255 --> 02:19:15.195
the reach that his algorithm is giving him giving them momentarily.

1565
02:19:16.056 --> 02:19:22.580
But he can take it away from them at a moment's notice, and that's why we use Nostra, and that's why we use FreedomTech.

1566
02:19:23.120 --> 02:19:24.020
Thank you, Ben.

1567
02:19:24.561 --> 02:19:27.845
And, till next time. I do appreciate you. Thank

1568
02:19:31.024 --> 02:19:31.524
you.

1569
02:19:53.190 --> 02:19:56.730
Many times must the can and the balls fly

1570
02:19:57.750 --> 02:19:59.290
before they're full

1571
02:19:59.750 --> 02:20:00.425
out of band.

1572
02:20:22.835 --> 02:20:26.420
How many years must the mountain exist

1573
02:20:27.840 --> 02:20:30.580
before it is washed to the sea?

1574
02:20:32.319 --> 02:20:33.300
Isn't how

1575
02:20:33.760 --> 02:20:34.580
many years

1576
02:20:44.540 --> 02:20:47.840
a time must a man turn his head

1577
02:20:48.300 --> 02:20:51.680
and pretend that he just doesn't see?

1578
02:21:26.806 --> 02:21:28.266
One may have

1579
02:21:28.966 --> 02:21:29.466
before

1580
02:21:29.846 --> 02:21:32.346
he can hear our people cryin'?

1581
02:22:05.975 --> 02:22:06.875
Love you freaks.

1582
02:22:07.575 --> 02:22:08.314
That track

1583
02:22:09.380 --> 02:22:10.360
was Bob Dylan

1584
02:22:11.060 --> 02:22:12.120
blowing in the wind.

1585
02:22:12.820 --> 02:22:14.520
I believe it was recorded

1586
02:22:14.900 --> 02:22:15.400
1963.

1587
02:22:18.535 --> 02:22:19.595
Lest you think,

1588
02:22:21.335 --> 02:22:24.075
this is a new fight, that we're a part of.

1589
02:22:24.615 --> 02:22:26.155
It's been going on for decades,

1590
02:22:26.870 --> 02:22:27.930
centuries even.

1591
02:22:29.989 --> 02:22:30.489
Freaks.

1592
02:22:31.029 --> 02:22:31.770
I have

1593
02:22:33.109 --> 02:22:34.170
no specific

1594
02:22:35.306 --> 02:22:35.806
plans

1595
02:22:36.346 --> 02:22:39.005
for what the next dispatch is.

1596
02:22:41.065 --> 02:22:43.085
I'll probably have 1 or 2 next week.

1597
02:22:43.865 --> 02:22:44.686
In the meantime,

1598
02:22:45.850 --> 02:22:49.470
I did a great series in partnership with Bitcoin Magazine called Freedom Money.

1599
02:22:50.810 --> 02:22:56.404
I've it's come to my attention that some of you have not listened to it. It's with human rights activists around the world.

1600
02:22:57.425 --> 02:23:00.564
So I I'm I think I'm gonna put that on the podcast feed.

1601
02:23:00.944 --> 02:23:02.244
Six great conversations.

1602
02:23:04.450 --> 02:23:07.110
You can search for the original by just searching Freedom

1603
02:23:07.890 --> 02:23:10.390
Money. Maybe add Odell on YouTube,

1604
02:23:10.850 --> 02:23:12.149
and it should come up.

1605
02:23:13.605 --> 02:23:16.346
But I think I'm gonna throw it on the feed as well

1606
02:23:16.726 --> 02:23:19.705
because why the fuck not? That's what matters.

1607
02:23:21.285 --> 02:23:22.586
But until next time.

1608
02:23:23.220 --> 02:23:24.200
I love you all,

1609
02:23:25.380 --> 02:23:27.160
and stay humble in Stack Sats.

1610
02:23:28.020 --> 02:23:31.080
Let's see if I can actually do a raid

1611
02:23:32.095 --> 02:23:32.995
because I failed

1612
02:23:33.455 --> 02:23:40.194
yesterday. I I know I did. So I'm gonna send you guys all to no good radio because that dude's a ride or die.

1613
02:23:40.750 --> 02:23:42.370
And he did a great job,

1614
02:23:44.270 --> 02:23:45.890
with the redesign of,

1615
02:23:46.910 --> 02:23:50.215
seal dispatch art. Thank you. No good. I really do appreciate you.