March 8, 2024


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Citadel Dispatch

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BLOCK: 833638
PRICE: 1482 sats per dollar
TOPICS: lightning, running your own node, bitcoin business infrastructure, the future, ecash

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(00:00:00) The challenges of scaling Bitcoin

(00:00:24) The importance of the free market as a release valve for innovation

(00:01:37) The opportunities that arise from increased demand for Bitcoin

(00:33:53) The love/hate relationship with lightning

(00:34:10) Lightning is useful

(00:36:10) Lightning nodes

(01:04:20) The use of Phoenix in ACINQ development

(01:05:17) The excitement around the bitcoin halving

(01:11:11) The potential of earning bitcoin through various avenues

(01:31:51) Differences between bitcoin and ecash

(01:52:00) Importance of clear communication about bitcoin and ecash

(01:58:05) The excitement of building on bitcoin


00:00 - The challenges of scaling Bitcoin

00:24 - The importance of the free market as a release valve for innovation

01:37 - The opportunities that arise from increased demand for Bitcoin

33:53 - The love/hate relationship with lightning

34:10 - Lightning is useful

36:10 - Lightning nodes

01:04:20 - The use of Phoenix in ACINQ development

01:05:17 - The excitement around the bitcoin halving

01:11:11 - The potential of earning bitcoin through various avenues

01:31:51 - Differences between bitcoin and ecash

01:52:00 - Importance of clear communication about bitcoin and ecash

01:58:05 - The excitement of building on bitcoin

Grant Gilliam:

Be really interesting year. I mean, I I sort of think of the

like the free market is this release valve. Right? They, you guys have been talking about scaling Mhmm. Scaling Bitcoin.

I think that

the next wave of adoption like, sometimes I wonder, like, are the Bitcoin companies, are they actually ready for

Danny Knowles:

it? And And what do you mean by that? That's interesting.

Grant Gilliam:

Well, just

in every sense, like is the UX there, the company is ready to scale the number of users,

you know, 10x to what they are today.

And it sort of reminds me of, well,

were people ready for

the MIM pools being

very full and transaction fees being as high as they are? They probably weren't really ready. There weren't too many

companies or groups that were planning ahead for that type of environment. I mean, that was one of the things that we were expecting,

and a theme that we were investing behind. But

for the most part,

people weren't really ready for it and

but that creates this pressure that

ultimately the free market,

becomes a release valve and that's where I think the innovation happens.

That pressures your opportunity.

Right. That's

for for any, you know, any capitalist, right, who any entrepreneur who wants to build something to relieve some pressure.

That's I'm excited for that because

the next wave of adoption comes

and Bitcoin users and demand

increases by 10 x or more,

well, are the companies gonna be ready for it? I'm not sure, but that's gonna create opportunity for someone if they're not,

to relieve that pressure.


Happy Bitcoin Thursday, freaks.

It's your host, Odell, here for another solo dispatch.

We got a fun rip.

I got

12 people from the Voltage

Cloud team here,

for a party rip.

They they've been having an off-site here at Bitcoin Park in Nashville,

for the last few days.

So we figured we'd cap it off with

lots of good drinks, hats,


and, some fun times. So,

here we are.

Pretty exciting.

We're actually live.

I got I got Graham from Voltage sitting right next to me. I got Kim from Voltage who helped coordinate this whole thing.


up, Graham?


Oh, man. Just having a good time. Joining Bitcoin Park.


Fuck. Yeah. Like, the live chat's ripping. How's it going right at I freaks? Thanks for joining us without knowing who your guests were gonna be.

The guests were actually surprised as well. I believe Kim was the only one who was aware of this. Yeah.

So how do you feel about it, Kim, that you're that we're live?

Well, great. Because nobody could say no. Because I just put them in a room and put them on wings.


The wings are good, by the way. I see someone asking about that. They're pretty good. And Lee's.


It's a national local joint.


Speak up. I said we were sold sock puppets,


and we were given Matt Liddell.



1 and the same.

We have to bring down the sock puppets. So guys, Voltage. Voltage is fucking awesome.

I rely on you guys for 5 nodes now.


Wow. Nice. I didn't even know you're that high. That's fantastic.


Yeah. They're all there's some of them are under NIMS and, you know, some of them only only Nate knows.


yeah. I mean, I've come to the conclusion

and, you know, a lot of hard core people might disagree with me, but I've come to the conclusion that if I'm gonna run a lightning node, it has to be on voltage because otherwise, it just drives me fucking crazy

and cost me a lot of money.

So that's why I use Voltage, and, I just wanted to thank you guys,

for having, you know, an outstanding product.

Best in class.


Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your business. And I Yeah.

We appreciate it and I think that that's what we I mean, it's what we strive to do. We want the easy button, right? You don't wanna have to do it the hard way all day every day. It really is the easy button. So Harry


says, just click the button. It works.

Dude, weird weirdo robot is actually in in the room right now,

but he's also a ride or die freak that's off in the live chat, and he just doxed one of my nodes.

That's why I don't really appreciate. You know, I I use your service because it's a privacy first service. There's no KYC or anything like that.

So the redesign, you guys just redesigned it. Your Wi Fi sucks.

Park Wi Fi is mid.

Can't confirm. But we're hardwired right now. Yeah. But the Wi Fi does suck here. Redesign.

Redesign. What do you yeah. I was I was sending you guys up. I gave you, like, an easy softball.

What what's special about the redesign? Why should people care?


You know well, I mean, ideally, you shouldn't care at all because it just works and it's intuitive and you figure out, and you don't even notice because the design doesn't get in the way of doing what you need to do with Bitcoin. That's my opinion. But, I mean, basically, what we're trying to do is,

you know, there's a lot of different products that Volta just built over the years, like, obviously, Lightning node's flagship,

Bitcoin Core for some people, Flow LSP,

now a little, Nostor

in pub Lightning address thing we do.

So a lot of different products.

Oh, yeah. Surge, surge analytics. That was what I was working on when I first started with the company. Wait. What is the surge product?

It's an analytics What is the search? Yeah. It's analytics toolkit. So, basically, yeah, you hook it up to your node, and then it, you know, collects data from your node, presents it to you in charts, graphs, tries to find this the data, like, the lower level data of your node and try to present it in an actionable way for you,

to make it easier to It's kinda like a ThunderHub competitor.

At the moment, I would say no because ThunderHub is, like, a lot more about, like, management, like, you know, open channel, closed channel,

you know,

swap, rebalance, stuff like that. Whereas, like, surge is just more about, you know, trying to service the data for you.

But, anyhow, like, the basic gist of it is that we had all these different products. They all kinda felt like were separate tools. You kinda go into, like, a separate page for each one and kinda used it in its own little silo. And in order to kinda get to the next level, we wanted to make sure that everything felt like it was just kind of, like, one developer platform. Like, you go to DigitalOcean, and it's like you go to that website, and it's, like, all of their tools, whether it's, like, the domain name or the, like,

virtual machines or whatever, it all they all feel like they work together,

as, like, one kinda cohesive platform. 1 and the same thing for Bitcoin and Lightning. So the redesign was kind of really focused on trying to make it so that everything would feel interoperable and feel like it's all there in one platform and kinda paved the way for us to release new products under this new interface.


And it looks really pretty.

Danny Knowles:

Very pretty. Yeah. It looks good. Steven's excellent. So what's with the


what happened with the 2 factor code? Like, I had to put a new 2 factor code in?



a whole like, we as part of not only the redesign of the site, we also redid a lot of the back end stuff too, adding team support, redoing our authentication system.

And so that was we migrated back end systems for authentication. You had to reset it up. So that was the reason, but that was a very much I think it was happening now. I was like, am I getting rugged right now?


But I did it anyway.

Yeah. Surge is cool. Surge I mean, I said ThunderHub competitor, but you guys also offer ThunderHub in,

like, my experience with ThunderHub is only through Voltage, really. Because before that, I was using RTL.

I mean, I Surge, I feel like, is very much in its infancy.


Right? Like, you can tell Yeah. That there's, like, a lot of promise, but it's still very new. Yeah. Totally. But, like, I think, now that in the new interface, surge is now better as a result. Like, before, there was a lot of confusion because it felt like kind of a separate product from the the rest of, like, the Voltage node. Now it's very simple. You start an LND node with us, and then there's just, like, a little button that says, you know, activate surge. And you click it, you know, decrypt your macaroon, and it activates search for your node. So it's all there in one It's in the home page. It's on the home page. And on many it unlocks many other pages

with analytics that you can look at. So it's now very, like, tightly integrated into the management of your node now. That's part of, like, trying to make it feel more cohesive. So I think it'll be more

people now, and it'll be more convenient for people to be able to see that data about their node.

Also cheaper. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's because we changed the whole, the whole billing system too. I mean, like, Whenever he says something, we should just repeat it.

He said it's cheaper.


You whisper it from the corner of the room. Cheaper is relative. It's 0. You know, it used to be $10. Well, no. I'm confused. So, So, I mean, if you guys wanna bring this up Yeah. Yeah.

First of all, the first time I used Surge,

did not tell me the price.

And I just immediately paid $10 accidentally. Like, I didn't even know. I just, like I pressed activate, and then I think I talked to Nate afterwards, and he was like,

And now it's, like, built into, like, this API credit thing. Yeah. So we have plans. But I don't really understand


how that charges me. Yeah. Sure. So I can answer, but if somebody else want to, so I'm not, like, hogging the mic.

That's such a great voice. You're good.

I'm good? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. So yeah. Basically, we have 12 people in the room, but it's just good. So, yeah, everyone else here is, like, my department to, like, correct me when I'm wrong, which is every other sentence. Nice. So,

basically, we have got these billing plans. Before, it was very, like, AWS y, or it's like,

hey, you know, you you know, it's like a couple of fractions of a cent or whatever per CPU compute kilowatt out, whatever. And that that was very confusing because, like, you don't really think about, like, Lightning nodes the same way you do the, like, cloud stuff on other platforms. You're not gonna, like, spin up and spin down Lightning nodes on a daily basis. You ideally want the node, like, running 247. Right? Yeah. Kind of point of a lightning node. So really just makes more sense for, like, a flat billing model every single month. Right. So we roll this feature called Teams, basically.

And we have these different plan levels for how big of an operation you're trying to run. So, like,

the lowest plan, you might just be 1 developer just starting out.

The next plan up is $25 a month.

You can have 2 users on it, so you can invite your friend to collaborate on your Viltage team with you. It also comes with several API credits, like 250 k API credits. So as you're using services like surge, it just deducts from the API credits that already come in through the What does that mean? I'm using surge?

Yeah. So, basically, every single data point is an API credit. What does that mean? So a data point sorry.


Okay. So we need to clear up our messages. This is the every other sentence part. So no. So and it's like testing. Your note like, something triggers. For example Every time I receive a Zap or a Podcasting 2.0. Every so I don't control that, though. Make a payment.

Get your I get, like, I get Yeah. Thousands of one sat payments a week. And you get 200 Are those data points? Yep. Yeah.


But it's like you're playing because of, like, 250,000 or 500,000.

It's like it's all it's all aggregated up to a point where it's like you aren't gonna

you aren't gonna worry about this the one set payments, like, all the time. Like, if you if you go over, like, your plans, like, a lot of API credits, you can just pay, like, you know, a flat, like, amount, or you can reduce it and, like, by you could just turn it off or whatever. So, like, it I mean, I was talking I was talking to Nate, and I was just, like, I'm scared. I just disabled it.


Yeah. Didn't really understand. Like, that's just, and you this is a feedback. I'm giving you feedback. No. I I think feedback. And that's, like, that's why that's why we're different. Of this. I'm a different type of user. Right? Like, the podcasting 2.0 specifically is, like, I literally



bit, like, lightning DDoS as a business model. Right? It's just, like, thousands of tiny ass payments

that are way under the dust limit,

that I'm getting to my note all the time, through, like, fountain and all these different podcasting 2 point o apps. And thank you, Freaks, for your support. I appreciate your stats.


Mhmm. Yeah. I've been a node kind of in between that a few times. You catch these, like, just streams of payments. It's


amazing. Like, right now it's happening because our HR was right before this.

So that node is just having data points

sent to it. Yeah. And then as soon as this gets published, it's gonna also get a ton. Mhmm. Yeah. You'll probably get a ton of activity after the show.


And, but, you know, that's the thing. So, yeah, I mean, we probably need to improve that a little bit more just in terms of making it clear. When you activate search, it's like, okay. This is gonna cost you one API credit and show you, like, a little tally on there. Like, you have 500 k API credits or whatever plan. Like, shoot them. Why is Surge even


like, if I don't have the website open, like, why is Surge even


checking? Because it has to be able to basically ingest all of that data. So that when you open the website, we show you the graph instantly.

So the thing that's, like, really hard with people that use ThunderHub, especially with big nodes Right. Is they open it and they wait, like, 2 minutes, go get a coffee, and let them know. In the ass, and then you gotta deactivate. Exactly. Go go to Twitter or not there. Yeah. And it's gone. I get distracted. And then I come back and I have to re enable it. Yeah. So that's the whole model of Surge is that we're ingesting, we're processing, we're making these insights for you while you're away so that when you show up, we can tell you something cool. I will say, like, I don't know if this is,



to give I mean, it is from my perspective.

But, like, I went to my node, like, 2 months ago, and I was like, I gotta pay the because you don't have I mean, it's I pay with Bitcoin. Right? So there's no, like, reoccurring payments. And I was like, oh, I like, I'm I'm probably due for a payment to, like, Voltage. I was, like, 8 months past due and, like, my note has been deactivated.


It's a I appreciate that aspect. Like, if Serge, like, takes too many API credits, like, maybe you don't close me right away. Yeah. That's yeah. Like covered on that. Yeah. That well, I mean, historically, we've we've done a bad job of, like, negative balance and things like that. But, like, yeah, we aren't gonna, like if you if you go over your all allotted limit or something, we're not just gonna, like, shut you down. I paid my bill. Yeah. Just to be clear, I paid my bill.

Yeah. So, like, it's, you won't you won't get just immediately shut down if, like, your surge agent uses too many credits or whatever.


You can't even fear. Right? It's, like, just so many more. Right?


Yeah. Yeah. Like, this is fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like real auto is that's why if you look at our little marketing trailer thing, it's like auto scaling. Meaning, if you go beyond your initial allocation that you're paying for monthly,

it's like you just buy a little bit more and that's just packed on at the end of the month. Right. Automatically.


And there should be email notifications, fingers crossed, that go out. Like I got no email notification. We

haven't done that yet. That you're just like, alright. May I give you an email address that we're gonna send was an email. Like


but I just like, all hands on the table. Like, was it because it's like a was it, like, treated as, like, a VIP node? Or is that just like a No. You're an old user, man. Trust me. Like, I I I thought you were about, like,

limit on, like, patch up and stuff. And it's like they're like, oh, yeah. Like, I'm getting wrecked on this or and I see a completely different experience because, like, they just, like, white list Odell.

So, like, I'm not getting that treatment. This is what you guys are doing. Well, you guys gotta clean up your billing a little bit. Like, yeah, that

that that that happened. That happened, with this latest update. So I checked back after the because I don't check emails. I just have to say, to be fair, you've never checked emails. But I checked when I saw I was, like, 6 months, 7 months, 8 months past due, and I was like, did they email me? Like, was this on me? It was still kinda on me. It was still way late, but

you didn't email me. But, anyway, besides that, fantastic product.

I feel like we got the voltage shield through, and now we can talk about Bitcoin.

But before we do that,

it's voltage dot cloud.

If you're gonna run a Lightning node,

which is not for everyone,

running a Lightning node is a massive mental burden. It's expensive. Like, despite what Alex Bosworth tweets out, most

people will never make money running a lightning node. You're gonna lose money running a lightning node. You you're basically just doing it for the freedom if you're individual.

If you're a business, it's something else.

But if if you're an individual and, like, you're, like, I'm gonna get yield on my Bitcoin by getting routing fees and whatnot

with my, like, Tor only node,

you're not going to. You're just gonna lose a shit ton of money.

I, like, said on the other podcast on Revital recap, I was like, I wish, like, l and d just had a feature that at the top just told me how much money I would lose.

And, like, Nate in the HFA texted me. He was like, oh, you could do this, this, this. I was like, I don't wanna know. I was just saying.

I was like,


I'd rather not know how much money I've lost. So we got a joke called Nate is a service,

and that's what you'll get when you hit us up.


They will give you all that. He's great. He's great. Keep him keep him. He's a he's he's a true ride or die. But if you're gonna run a lightning node,

Voltage is the way to do it in my opinion. There is trust elements to it.

Like, it's it's it's not a a trustless service,

but they do a very good job of of of making it a freedom for a service.


Steven mentioned earlier,

they have, like, a really easy way to connect a lightning address to it, and lightning addresses have, for better or for worse, become a massive part of the ecosystem.

So you can get, like, a nice little,

and then it connects right back to your node. Super easy to use. The the fees are are,

you know, the the cost for your service is probably too low.

Like, you probably can charge significantly more for it. I think I pay, like, $35

a month or $30 a month all in or something like that.

I'd probably pay more.


Here we go. But,


for everyone listening, as long as they're still charging that amount, I think it's a very good deal. Somebody get this man on the growth plan.

You know, the scale plan.


Well, that's the 8 months to pay. Oh, but we did. But I paid.

But I

paid. And,

Yeah. And so my my last question before we move on to Bitcoin is,

like, what's next for Voltage? Where do you guys see Voltage going? Like,

what Voltage world domination? Like, what's the plan?


What are we allowed to say, Graham? Yeah. I think it's best to sound new.


Yeah. I mean, I think we got we have a lot of stuff on the works, especially being here at our at our off-site. It's basically been nothing but kind of that.

But, I mean, I think there's a lot of opportunity to increase,


tooling inside of, like, Lightning itself as well as just general Bitcoin.

We see like, we've been talking with a lot of customers that want,

things like layer 1 services, like help with, like, Bitcoin core nodes,

Explora, all of those kinds of things.

And so we're gonna definitely be it's kind of weird to start in lightning and expand into layer 1, but that's sort of, you know, something that we'll be definitely doing,

is increasing, you know, services around, like, layer 1.

And then, yeah, there's a lot there's a lot more beyond that. So ultimately, you know, the

we, you know, we appreciate all of your, the good good things you've said about the service, but there's still a lot of things to solve. There's still a lot more to go inside of making,

all of this, like, super easy to use and just continuing to solve problems. So that's what we're gonna do. So I think that,

I think from

a lot of things on the road map, this this redesign that we did is basically, you know, there's a lot of things in it on its own, but it really, the the big catalyst for us is it enables us to do a lot more that we have planned that we're gonna be doing, you know, over the coming months. So

a lot more to to happen.


Should we mention any of what we have built here this week, or should we save that for, like, you know, big reveals? I think we should. Yeah. Talk about it a little bit? Yeah.


Who wants to? So one one of the things that

Voltage is probably the best at

and is still going to be the best at is providing a platform

in which those who wanna integrate lightning into their businesses, services, apps, etcetera,

can find a place that they could do whatever they really want to. Right? We are everything is surfaced as far as, you know, what you wanna build the full LED API.

Developers will know all about that. But one of the most challenging things about lightning

from a developer standpoint is you don't wanna

code something up where you're, like, doing reward payouts or something and test it on main net. Like lightning network is really, really

hard, for test net type stuff. And I won't go into details, but it's hard. And so,

we built


can we just do full spoiler mode at this point? Alright. Go for it. So,


we're gonna have a little developer sandbox as part of the node deployment

screen on Voltage and where you'll be able to select not only Testnet now,


the, signet known as Mutiny Net

will be there.

Cool. And so now you can basically just define, like, your node infrastructure without having to wait,

you know, between 5 minutes and 3 hours for a test net node or I'm sorry, a test net block to be mined. And you could just kinda go to a faucet, get your stuff, open up your channels, plug it into your app or service, test it around,

you know, do that sort of thing. So we actually built that integration probably to, I don't know, 80%


done at this point just yesterday. In, like, a few hours. Yeah. The cool thing about that is, like, that's gonna basically make,

like, you know, when you're just getting started hacking on a Bitcoin project, that's gonna make, make it multiplayer.

Because, like, right now, a lot of times, if you start, like, okay, you got your laptops in the room, and your buddies are coding something up. It's like, one person is running reg test on polar. The other person's connected to their cloud node because they're, you know, some cloud chat or whatever.

And everyone's, like, on kind of a different network. Right? And it's just, like, it's really difficult to be able to, like, have a solid test environment. But now what we're hoping with this product is that you use GoToVoltage,

create a a Mutiny Net node, very quickly have a channel within, like, 1 minute,

and then all of you know, all your hacking buddies can just be there. You can all be using the same node. Like, when you're building your web application or whatever, it can all be talking to the same mutiny net lightning node. You could all make payments to it from, like, your, you know, mutiny net alpha wallet or whatever.

And so it's just gonna, I think, improve that experience and, like, speed up the collaboration

when you're trying to build stuff on Bitcoin.


Shout out Ben Carmen making the best shitcoin around. Yeah. You want Signet? Well, no. But the mutant has a fork and they have fucking tears. Right?

Yeah. It is. So it's technically a Yeah. A hard fork shitcoin.


He is the best shitcoiner. Yeah.


Anybody wanna mention the other one we built?


Yeah. So also

everybody point at me.



You know it's a good team because everyone just immediately looks at Graham and then Graham points.

Just So we unmuting that team. I was. I was on the other team in our hackathon, but it's all build that when you build 1. That we

it's it's weirdo



No. So we we did Okay. We we worked very closely with the MBOS guys forever. Like, we're super close with this team, and we've always supported them. Like, it's a nice integration.

And so

with their hydro with the Amboss


You're based in Nashville. Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. Right. I had lunch with them yesterday.



Yeah. So we

did a hydro


that we're starting to work on so that people can,

just within their voltage node, just a couple clicks.

And then they've always got inbound liquidity to whatever,

not SLA, but whatever kept above the threshold. Yeah. Kept above whatever threshold that hydro can provide. So it's just auto buying channels for them so that they can be sure that they've always got the inbound liquidity that they need.

Yeah. So it's actually cool because it's you know, we have our flow 2.0, our our flow product,

which is our own LSP,

and then we've now got this other way where people can go out to hydro and and get inbound from other folks too because we're really trying to build,

you know, a decentralized

ecosystem. I don't wanna provide all the services.

We wanna provide access to all of the services. I mean, inbound liquidity is the,


like, the number one headache,

right, of running a lightning node. Absolutely. Not being able to receive payments. Right. Which is, like, the thing people usually wanna do with money. Right. It's, like, receive it. Yeah. It's really easy if somebody's like, why can't I send this Bitcoin? And say, well, you have to, like, deposit Bitcoin into the node. That makes sense conceptually. They get it. And why can't I receive this Bitcoin? Yeah. You know? It's like you need Bitcoin to send Bitcoin, but, like, I need Bitcoin to receive Bitcoin. That's when you start to Yeah. Lose them. Yeah. So what makes this cool is that you could say, I want at least 5,000,000 sats of the amount on my note at all time. Turn on.

That's And you always have 5,000,000 sats. Right. It it but As long as hydro has liquidity. As long as you, like, want to get a little bit of a fee. Yeah. Right? It's actually can Well, actually, will the fee


is it expensive or Well, we're planning not really, but maybe a couple bucks. We're planning on tacking that onto the bill at the end of the month. Yeah. So the the the fee is to pay the channel open from, like, the Magma marketplace that they that they have. So it's basically paying the the liquidity provider,

which I know. There is too there's too many names in Bitcoin. Wait. So hydro is involved with Magma?

Hydro is Magma is like automation.


Usually, like, water and magma is like that.


Answer. Well, then talk talk to them about their naming convention. Well, I guess, yeah. But right. Yeah. I drew like team product next. It's kinda like a market maker. Like Yes. Team. Nice. I I drew kinda like like finds that it's like, okay. You want us, you know, you need x amount of liquidity. We're gonna go on the marketplace and find one for you and go ahead and help, you know, arrange that transaction to happen.

And I've set up I set up my node with Hydro yesterday to kind of, like, understand the user flow, and it works great. It's a great product.

There's a little bit of setup you have to do manually on Ambos with Hydro. So, like, what we've done is we made it so for customers running nodes on Voltage, it's just kind of like a one click integration.

They can just, you know, immediately be hooked up to the hydro service


and not have to go through any of the setup process. And that's because Tony and stuff built an API that allows us to just integrate it into our platform really easily. So Ambot Tony from Ambot. Yes. Exactly. Yep. I don't know this Tony.


Yeah. Oh, he lives Not in around here. Let's say that. I won't doctor. So But, like, you kinda doctor, not in Nashville. In a city.


Yeah. Jesse's partner. Okay. Mhmm. Jesse's partner. Jesse's partner. Jesse's in the face of the operation. She optioned.

Good for Tony.

When I hear Tony, I just think Giorgio. Yeah. Yeah.


Yeah. Not even his real name. So maybe Yeah. I wasn't there. Interesting.


Oh, yeah. Right. And then that's part of our kind of larger,

I guess, initiative to build more integrations with other companies. Yep. Right? So we're putting in the framework so that we've had a we know so many people in the industry. It's awesome. We love what everybody's building. And starting to bring that to more people

is gonna be really powerful for everybody in the network.

And so it was really nice to build this framework

for integrations so we can start offering kind of, like, more of a plug in kind of marketplace or whatever, something like this. Which is which is also what we we'd had an announcement


yesterday or 2 days ago, with an integration with Bitwave, which is a tax and accounting

provider for, like, digital crypto broadly, but they're we're integrating with them to make, like, tax and accounting on lightning specifically

super easy. So you can just connect the 2 really difficult.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's like you know, previously, how do you do it? You download them into, like, an Excel spreadsheet or something and then, like, you know, mess with them and up whatever. And so we're integrating with people like that because, like, you know, tax and accounting is something that businesses need to deal with. And so,

doing things like that that just continue to solve problems. Yeah. And it's something that, like, yeah, like, tax and accounting isn't Voltage's core competency, so we're not gonna build tax and accounting software. Ridiculous. Yeah. So we're gonna we're gonna work with people that solve that. Yeah. Someone else do it. I think everyone would quit if I say that we're gonna build tax and accounting software.



That's awesome. I mean, high hydro it's it the inbound liquidity problem is

as many different solutions as we can come up with for that problem, probably the better. I it's unsolved.

Like, I I mean, I appreciate flow, but, like, flow didn't solve it, in my opinion.

The first the first flow?

Whatever flow. I don't think it would be like that.


The flow we have today is very much focused on, like, noncustodial, like, mobile wallets, like, mutiny wallet. Yeah.

And so it doesn't like, we we can adapt it to, like, the nodes that we run, but it's kind of serving almost a different purpose in that way. Got it.


So yeah. So, like, the




okay. So let's go down let's go down memory lane. I the way I saw the inbound liquidity in one of my nodes was,

like, I I called Leishman,

and I was like, dude, like, why do I need to be white listed to connect to River? And he was like, oh, I could white list you. So he white listed me, and I opened up a channel from my node to River.

And then I opened up a channel from my node to Bitcoin Park, and then Bitcoin Park needed to sell its Bitcoin to fund operations because we have fiat expenses here.

So it went through my note to get to River, and then I had a bunch of sweet inbound liquidity from River. And then, like, 2 days ago, like, River just closed my channels. Like, beautiful, like, 20,000,000 sats of inbound.



in front of my eyes. Well, I think that, like, that's how, like I mean, just people do, like, ridiculous hacks. Like, that was a ridiculous hack to try and get inbound liquidity.

And then it just can be gone in the moment and, like, in seconds. Just like some engineers just like going through the notes. Like, well, we don't need it to this random ass Tor node. You know? Just like, boom, closed. Well, and from their perspective, they see 20,000,000

stats of their money. Yeah. Stuck in a lightning channel with a stupid ass tour node. Yeah. I'm a big guy. What?


don't blame him. Yeah. It


hurt, but I don't blame him. But it, like, closed down so many channels. You could see it in the lightning graph? Yeah. Yeah.




yeah. No one can hear you, but when River, closed down all the nodes, it closed down all their channels. Like, you could literally see it in the total




Yeah. I was I was one of those. But that was, like, months ago. You were like the wolf. And then they hit me again.

And then they released, like I love the river guys. The river guys are awesome. I'm not trying to sit on the River guys. But then they would, like, release, like, a report saying, we closed down all these channels and lightning liquidity is still great. It's like, yeah. Not for me.


That's also it's it's a interesting thing because there's, like, there's the there's the disconnect between, like, enterprise lightning and, like, you know, club lightning, if so to speak. And,

you know, those things are hard to kind of reconcile sometimes of, like, you need to find those people that are willing to bridge that gap. They're, like,

okay enough to connect to River where they're not gonna close their channel, but they're also okay with opening up to, like, these random plug nodes. Right. You know? So those, like, those kinds of services. And I think that that's what, you know, a lot of, like, the sellers on Magma

are more likely to be that kind of bridge.

So I think that that will help in Do we need to is there gonna be


a bifurcation

of lightning?


Are you kidding? Of course.

Right? Like, there's there's, like, careful Woah. Let's go. Yeah.

Because there's people that just wanna be routing 10,000,000 SAP payments all day long, and there's people that wanna buy coffee at Starbucks.

Right? And so these are just, like, different scales. No. But, like, what I'm saying where there's, like, no connective tissue between the 2. Well, there will absolutely be connective tissue, but they will be, like,

hard layers.

Like, you your pleb node your pleb nim node with like 10,000,000

Sats total,

like, probably won't be connecting to River in a year. Right. Right? There's just like no reason for them to pick up their bank. What would it be today if you didn't call the CEO and say, hey.


Their permission was involved.


Permission was involved. It's the same one. And so we'll we'll keep going there. I'm off to Boyz with him. Yep.

Yeah. No. No. But my question is, like,

okay. So

I get I get shit on because I shit on lightning sometimes.

But it's important to realize,

like, I love lightning.

Right? I use lightning on a daily basis. I rely on lightning. It's an incredibly useful tool for me. I run 5 lightning nodes including the Bitcoin Park lightning node. But

I I there's clearly product market fit.

There's clearly product market fit for lightning as a interoperable payment protocol for regulated custodians or just custodians.


It works fantastic.

You wanna send money from bid for next to strike or from strike to river or

or from river to wallet to satoshi.

It works all the time. It's almost like 99%

payment reliability.

I do not know for sure if, like, the dream

of the sovereign individual

running his Tor only node being able to, like, pay people reliably

reliably is, like, a real thing.

And, like, I I see it. Like, even, like, the hardcore you guys are here for the lightning summit.

You had even more of your team was here for the lightning summit than this off-site, I think.

Or is it This is the team. This is the team. This is the This is the whole team? Yeah. Everybody. I put

massive key managers. Who's running my notes?

Okay. The computer. But

I don't know if you guys remember. Like, I walked into the main room of Big Wind Park, and I was like, who's using wireless satoshi? I'm like, all the hands shot up. Like, so many hands shot up.

And it's

it's like even the hardcores


I mean, the other day on Revital Recap, I got shot on because I was like, if you're using an iPhone, like, consider, like, Phoenix with the iCloud backups.

You know? And and because it just works.

And so is there

what do you guys think about, like,

that comment? I mean, I don't really have a question. What do you guys think about this idea of, like is is

is the dream of, like, the sovereign individual running a

Tor lightning node



And I think not today, but in the future, definitely. It'll be a lot easier,

once when a couple more solutions come out

We can't really talk about right now.


I think the biggest issue is you have to run a server somewhere. So how do you make that so easy that it's just clicking a button

and that's it?

We're not there yet, but we're gonna get there.

So the dream's alive and it's possible.

And your other question about

the network splitting


between, like, business stock new each other Yeah. And, like, individual people. Those are, like, 2 different I think of those as 2 different products or 2 different networks. Well, the thing is I mean, that's what a network is. I know. It doesn't necessarily have to be. Right? So


who's servicing

a small business?

That's gonna be big business talking small business,

and then it's individuals connecting to the small business node. And then that way, you have the whole connection

of the network.

So it'll still work that way. Right?

So you don't necessarily have 2 completely separate networks.

There's gonna be like that piece connecting them, the small business.

Like that's that's where it all

stays together.

Right. Because you'll have individual people that have like somebody that's producing something

they want that's local.

And then they have to pay their provider,

like whatever they're sourcing the materials from. And those providers gonna have much bigger nodes, and I'll actually talk to the banking network, whatever that is.


But everything Well, that's that's the problem. It works as long as there's, like,

even 1 or 2 channels that are Right. Connecting the 2 worlds. Yeah. But But what if there aren't? But the thing is, there are some There will always be. That's why the market is solved. Right? This is like Yeah. People There's all this before. You have a small business. But if you're sourcing Who are you doing that? You're sourcing material from somebody with supply chain. You might be That's where it comes from. Yeah. So I think he's like Yeah. This ain't no Tony.


Yeah. I'm not looking at Tony. I'm not I'm not Yeah. The the scaling lightning thing is, like, getting it everywhere is freaking hard.

But you can I mean, I think that, like, we have to, like, reevaluate

what we think, a lightning wallet or a lightning node is because, like What is a lightning node? I mean, a lightning node is something that's, you know, connected to the lightning network, I guess. But the thing about

it a little answer, Steve. But the thing about it is that we have this monolithic view of what a lightning node is, and it's like, it's gonna have everything. It's gonna have it's gonna have an on chain wallet. It's going to, gossip with peers.

It's gonna, you know, send Lightning messages.

It's it have a you know, construct its own full channel graph. It's gonna do all of the complex. If you go through Mastering Lightning,

we have this idea the book Mastering Lightning. We have this idea that a lightning node is going to follow every single chapter of that book. And do you Have you read the book? Yeah.


Wow. Yeah.

Raise your hands. Who's read the book? We have internal voltage book club. So Really? We have we have a book club


that knows what they went through. Yeah. But the thing the thing about it is that, like, you know, like, now you can you can pair things down for mobile. Like, if you're running a routing node It's like Like, if you're running a routing node, you wanna have everything on it. Like, you wanna you wanna have it doing, you know, everything, like, self sovereign. But, like, if you just have your thing on a phone, you could use something like rapid gossip sync and just, like, pull down,

you know, peer information from the Lightning service provider. Like, that phone doesn't need to do much except for hold the user's keys so that it's self custodial.


Yeah. But then you're not a

it's not a lightning node. It is. And this


we've already seen this bifurcation

happen between,

like, mute fucking Tony over here.

So Mute me. Like, mute me runs nodes in the phone.

Nobody's gonna route over a mutiny node ever. That's not part of the contract. That's not part of the Right. Zeus does the same thing. Nothing. Right? But Zeus does it with LND. But Sonya does it with If you wanna run a routing node, if you wanna be one of those central parts of the graph, you're gonna run on voltage. You're gonna run like, whatever, something like that. We've already seen this, and there's people that are super happy serving this. Yeah. But there's different levels than like, that I mean,


there's different levels of lightning node. Like Yeah. Right? Right. Yeah. Exactly. Not the same. That's


When you're a lightning network participant, I don't know.


I love immunity. Mutiny is fucking awesome. They're my boys. You know, Evan's my boy.

Like, it requires a level of trust. Right? Like, Olympus can on Zeus can just, like, close my channel at will.

I've had I've had force close it. The the my first experience with Unity was just, like, an immediate force close. They're like, Matt, thank you for your bug report. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I get it. Like You know, like, it's a completely different world than, like, actually running a But for mobile wallet users A real lightning node. Yeah. Sure. But I don't think anyone cares about running a real lightning node. I


I'm serious. This is good. Like, people want to be able to send and receive money. And, you know, Bitcoin's the best money, so maybe one day people will wanna send and receive Bitcoin. So, like, they they this isn't, like, what the user or the customer is asking for. They're not like, you know, it's like a user story. It's like, as a user, I want to run a Lightning node so that I can open channels, so that I can monitor fee rates. No. It's, as a user, I wanna send and receive money. That's what the user story is. That's what the ask is. And so a mobile lightning wallet can satisfy that user ask and, like, look. I get it. Olympus, Zeus,

mobile is an issue still. It is. And, look, I get it. There's probably issues with the, the mobile Zeus. There was Well, Tony hates how Zeus does it. And there's probably issues with wallet too. Does not receive. Yeah. This is this is all this is all, like, alpha stuff too. Has solved it by, like, you're not receiving pay. Yeah.


But here's And Evan has solved it in a way that mutiny is not happy about Yeah. Because channels just get force closed. Oh, look at it. Just so we're in alpha,


deep alpha territory right now where shit's broken as fuck, and that's just the reality of the situation. But I think Sorry. Sorry to say the vision the vision. I'll try it somewhere else here. Like, the vision is just that, you know, if we just wanna get people to send and receive, you know, payments over their phone,

you don't need, like, a 1000000 channels. You don't need to manage those channels. The Lightning service provider should have a market incentive


provide inbound liquidity to users,

maintain that channel, nourish that channel over time because they have an incentive to, you know, collect fees on,

connecting those people to the Lightning Network. So, like, I just I think that for a mobile wallet, you're not really thinking about you're not worried. You the user shouldn't have to worry about,

you know, whether the channel's open or closed, or what the fee rate is, or what the peers are, the the network graph, or anything like that. The mobile wallet user is just concerned, can I send or receive? And the Lightning service provider, if they're doing their job really, really, really well, which I hope they do, then they should be, incentivized


to make sure that they are providing that service at all times. So we have over a 1000 people in here right now, and,

well, not in the room. In the room, we have 13.

You like that? Yeah.

I want this to be, like, the most

overly technical

party podcast that's ever existed. Alright. I'm gonna go cosmic then. Wait a minute. Before you go cosmic.

Before you go cosmic.


So I got in trouble. Right? Because I posted the meme

of the, like, the train hitting the school bus. Right? And, like, people

on Nostar underneath me were like, that's not like, you shouldn't fuck around with, like, trains hitting school buses. Like, I have a child. Like, I don't want a train to hit a school bus. Like, I assume the school bus is empty in the meme. You know?


my point is what?


My point is


is fees going up. Right? On chain fees going up Yeah.

Raises the stakes significantly here because,


it's one thing if you have, like, a long term relationship with your LSP where they nourish your channels.

Right? But, like, if they're not nourishing your channels and they just you get closed on, you like, I I'm curious, like, how you guys think about,

like, the stake I feel like the stakes are getting higher. Right? Like, we're I mean, I started this I started this episode off with a clip from my partner at 1031 Grant.

And he's

like, okay. Like, a lot of us are very bullish right now. Like, we we we recently hit, like,

kinda like a false all time high, like, 2 days ago, 3 days ago, and then just immediately dumped $8,000.

Like, it feels like things are, like, boiling up. Like, we're hitting I mean, before having, we're hitting we're hitting all time highs.

Fees are up.

Hash, like, hash rate is fucking skyrocketing. The macro environment's fucking insane.

We have ETFs going crazy. All of a sudden, like, the suits are coming in. Like, pensions are coming

in. Like, I I kind of right here, I mean,

it's been like a year of me saying in all caps, mempools will never clear again. But I feel like the on chain fees increasing is all of a sudden really changing the game in terms of how we can play with lightning and and, like, how end users are seeing it.

And so, like, if you have an end user

who, you know, maybe has, like, $500

in their wallet and then all of a sudden gets hit with, a $40 transaction fee or something like that. Like, that is like that can be devastating for a person. Mhmm. Right? Like, Bitcoin is, like, talking about Global South. Like, that can be absolutely devastating

for a person. So, like, how do you got I mean, Steven, how do you think about that? Like, when you're talking about nourishing Lightning channels. Yeah. I mean, the on chain fee environment is that's going to be


that's going to be a problem. And, you know, I'm looking forward to any kind of solutions people can come up up with. I think one would be, you know, some kind of solution for batch opening and batch, you know, batch opening channels would be really good. There's been a lot of exciting work with, like, covenants and, like, l enhance.

But that's one of those things that, you know, that's why,

I just try to keep up with all the research that's going on and, you know, let the gigabrains do their work. So No cost. Tell me tell me about this. Yeah. If you if you make it loudly Yeah.


Think about the environment. I think it's, like, taking the treat training wheels off. Like, it's good. It's a good thing. Like, we need to kind of We're riding the fucking bike now. Yeah. It's like putting pressure on us to figure shit out. Are we wearing a helmet?


No. No. No helmet.

No helmet in Bitcoin.


We'll go through riding the whip. Yeah.


But but then to your point,

like, in the long run, at least the current path we're on, there's that problem of, like, not everyone can own an UTXO.

Right. Mhmm. So I think that's that's the biggest problem. Like, unless something else comes along, fixes that, like,


I mean, we're talking about lightning,


like, trying to be self sovereign with lightning. But if you you kinda text you text, so how are you gonna do that?


I mean, I think this sort of elevates the conversation instead of just talking about to what are lightningos or lightningos for to what is the lightning network itself. What is the lightning network? Like what's it for, right? What was it for? What is it somehow

turning into? Or what could it turn into that isn't like what we expected. Right? We expected

instant settlement

payments forever. That was like lightning in 2018.

And now, you know, after talking to folks like my good friend, Nifty Nye and everything, it's like Fucking love Lisa. Yeah. I talk to her all the time. Like,

I've learned so much from her. She's great. It's not Nifty Nae? Nifty Nae. And if not, I call her Lisa. I don't know. Tomato, tomato. Yeah. You know what I mean?

But the,




What is lightning network? I think I think we need to be prepared for the possibility that the light network is going to just be sort of like a like the way the Visa network is now where This is what I was saying. Yeah. Yeah. So instead of It's the interoperable payment protocol for custodians. Well, not not not not necessarily that. With the XOs. Not necessarily that. Just like let yeah. So the idea is it's a global

payment network rail system. Right? Yeah. Okay. Custodians are involved. Financial institutions are involved. However Final decision.


unlike the current system,

you don't need to have a banking license to run a lightning node. Yeah. Right?

You can actually just Yeah.


Yeah. That's what we have to defend. Honestly. Like defend the against the licensure.

Like if it costs you 10,000,000 Sats in the future to run a Lightning node, and that's an exorbitant amount of money,

that's fine. It's, like, 10,000,000


debt. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's $10,000,000. It's just the gates are closing on this

in a way. Fee rates go up, number go up, the amount of people that have UTXOs

that are more than a1000000 go down.

Okay? Like, I feel like if folks are even moderately interested in Lightning, I think Lightning could be a global payment rail system. They should start their nodes as soon as possible. Why? Just hang out on it. You know? It's been horrible to start a lightning note early.


I've lost so much in SaaS. You've lost so much in SaaS. No offense. We bonded over how much sats you're like. But but but the difference is


is you're very high time preference.


Oh, hold

on. No. I've learned by doing, so I have to try it. I have to try it, you know. No. I'm the same way. The good lessons are the expensive lessons. I've lost so many sets. It's not even We talk to you, but we're talking about individual people right now. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, why did starting a lightning note early doesn't help you?


It helped well, it won't help you. I gotta no. No. Or, like, accumulating sats,


stacking sats. No. Yeah. It did help you. But, like, having the sats in the first place helps. Starting the lightning this idea, like, we were sold by influencers, like or you would make a channel. It was like a generational channel. Yes. Now I'm told, like, I gotta close it for PTLCs.

CS. Like, River's just gonna close it. Like, an engineer at River is just gonna decide when he wants to close my channel. I closed down one of my my big node. I'd had, like, 350 channels.

Everyone's like, why are you doing this to me? It's like, I you know, I have a life, and I just need to close this. It's not run on voltage.

I do not trust migrating the fucking node. Yeah. I'm gonna probably lose all my money if I migrate it. You saw what happened to XMRK.

Like, the guy just, like, did, like, a he just, like, maybe he would just wasn't thinking, did, like, a couple commands. It could happen to the best of us,

and he lost it. So I was like, I'm just fucking oh, the fees are low. I'm closing all these channels. Sorry. Like, Ellen, UCLA, like, close all channels, send to, sweep. You know, I just fucking send all fucking to see more and more of that. Hold on. Is is opening of early landing node not worth anything, or is the mempool never gonna clear again? Because you can't have it both ways. No. It's both.

It's just I don't know if I don't know if having a lightning channel early helps you that much unless you need it. Like, if you need lightning,

use it.

And I need lightning, so I use it. But but, like, but I don't think you get, like, 1st mover advantage

opening a lightning


like, opening a lightning note today. Like, I don't think now. But I think the thing that will happen historically because if

if light if the lightning algorithm or whatever in the future is anything like Google, it will look back on on history,

and it will just say, hey.


Is that not possible? And are they never I thought I hope not. Yeah. But but we'll have this feature? No. I'm just saying, like,


this is something possible in the future, I believe. It's possible. Crazy. Right? But if you open a channel early, like, when Like reputation they you I mean, you can check-in, like, Ambrose or Rem pulled out space or whatever, like, age of age of lightning channel. And I think, like Age of age. Right. That is, like, a real thing I check on notes. Just, like, oh, like, how long has this person, like, actually dealt with? This is where the global south is even more, like, or is, like, when you look at, like, the Google algorithm, how they determine who wins and who doesn't, anyone who does, like, black hat slash gray hat things, they get burned into the future, make good decisions now, you win in the future. So these low time preference behaviors,

those people win. So when Nate's saying, like, start a node now by doing that, and if you have

an approach where you find ways to earn, you can open a fat channel, go spend it, and then you have ways to earn it back.


Sure. It's Yeah. I have an article called the low time preference routing mode. Look at that. I mean, another thing we haven't touched on is Yeah. I think you're wrong about that, Nate. What specifically, talk to me.


I mean, I think, like, that, like, article does well to, like,

virtue signal to the ride or dies. You know?

You're pretty good at that. So



think I think if you're smart enough or or capable enough


to Smart. Drive a car.

Yeah. The Catan strategy. Yeah.


Then you can open up a lightning channel, buy an Amazon gift card to get some inbound.


Yeah. Like, if if you're a mother and you can give birth to a fucking human being Which is the hardest thing in the world. Like, you can definitely

run a Lightning node. But, like, should you?

Like, that's the question. So so my question is Yeah. Did you do that to earn rounding fees? Hell, no. Should you do that because You need to make payments and receive payments. But most importantly, receive payments. Because make payments if you're just making payments, if you're going down for your, like, El Salvador pilgrimage

and you wanna buy your beer

and you wanna take a video or, like, of you shopping at McDonald's,

don't go to McDonald's, but, like, if you're shopping at McDonald's,

like, just use Phoenix Wallet. Well, I think this gets into the split on the But if you wanna receive payments, you need to run a lightning note, period. Like, you have no choice. Even if there's a lightning note on the phone.

This is the Well, no. No. Like, if you wanna receive them asynchronously. Like, if you wanna actually, like, receive them without being online. Yeah. But once once we have interoperability

achieved, but for both Yeah. I mean, once we all have unicorns.



then we can work on the async payments spec. Okay. We're not intended for a Bolt 12. And once we have the a pings async payment spec, then we'll be able to receive on the There's 100 and millions of people using Tether on Tron. We're talking about, like, oh, one day we'll have bolt 12, and we'll I'm I just don't wanna be a dick. But I No. No. I mean, yeah. It's just it's it's okay. It's your opinion, but it's a wrong opinion and it's okay.

Because, you know, right now, Lightning DevKit,

already has

support for Vault 12. They're having to roll it out in phases. Mutiny, I believe there's PR up. They're kinda blocked by LDK at the moment.

Pretty sure Eclair has it or at least Onion Messaging.

You already got the LNDK project to add to LND, and it's already there for Corelenny.

Dude, I think just the other day Yeah. But the LND doesn't have it. Right? There's an LNDK daemon that you can run alongside your NAND to add support for it. So Carl is working on it for them from the

Yeah. Yeah. Just the other day,

we actually set up, my buddy, Chad, and I, we worked on a project to name? At,

his name literally is Chad.




we, we actually set up a project to, add a, a Bolt 12 address support to Zeus.

So we have something that looks like a Lightning address, but it's for Bolt 12. And it's we have a PR open to Zeus right now.

So we have So what does that mean for me? What it means for you is that you can now have something that looks like a Lightning address and functions like a Lightning address.

But you don't have to have that risk of what if the LNURL server, you know, sends,

basically steals your money en route.

It's more secure

than lnurl. It's more secure than lightning address.

And since it uses both 12,

once we have more broader support for that in the industry, we'll then be able to support async payments. So Side note.


Chad is Why are you side noting? Okay. That'd be hilarious. Okay. Because I have a koala.

The koala's in the tree is outside.


After the show,

go to,

and you'll see Noster plays Pokemon, and that's Chad's thing.

Have you seen the Noster plays Pokemon thing on zap Stream? Does he play does he stream Pokemon games? No. It's legit just, like, for the last, like, month or something. It's just you have to, like, zap to, like,


do an action in the game. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I guess. They're trying to beat the game as a community. It's like when Twitch Oh, yeah. Just for a sec. I'm just saying that was good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Koala was the dicks with lightning. Right? Was that Koala or no?

I don't know. You're thinking of something. History.

What's your place wasn't lightning koala? No. It it it is. It just Yeah. Where everyone just drew dicks and paved with lightning.


No. I guess. Okay. We we got really hung up on that. Yeah.



mean, everyone was like, this is a revolution in finance, and it was just like people just drawing dicks and paying with them. I think that's how all good ideas start. Yeah.

I'm not sure. You sidetracked us, but sorry. All 12. Let's go. Wait. Wait. That actually sounds really interesting.

But that's not gonna is that gonna happen?


What do you mean define happen? Like, all 12? Is it usable? What's the trade off? It's it's Yeah. So right now I don't believe you. Our our implementation right now works with, Corelightning,

but we're also basing our work off of Matt Corallo's Bitcoin Improvement Proposal for this.

So it's

it's an idea that's receiving a lot of discussion on GitHub at the moment.


And, once we To know and let them in? Wow. He wouldn't be there. What else got 80s up there?


Sorry. But, yeah, it's basically just like imagine basically, imagine like this. Right now So it looks like a lightning address to LND nodes, normal LND nodes. Right now, LND wouldn't be able to support it, but in the future, they will. I'm sure. Okay. So 80% of the network doesn't support it. Yeah. No. Hey. We just gotta fight When is Voltus gonna support something other than LND?


Give us more demand. Okay. That's a good point. What do you mean more demand? We we


frankly Support it. No Frankly


speaking, we just don't get requests for anything else. Like, people don't ask for core lightning. I mean, I'm can we have core lightning?

Okay. I'll I'll I'll submit a ticket. I'll send it to our team to review.


I can send it to extra large ticket.


Can we size this guy? I already like, it it's like a chicken and the egg thing. Right? I already told you. I'm only gonna run a lightning node through voltage. Sure. Voltage only supports L and D, so I use L and D.

Mhmm. You know, it's chicken and egg. Be the change you wanna see in the world, Graham. Yeah. I I you got a point. I mean, I think that's valid. I think that,


I think that it's something that we it's we want I think, like, it's, like, one of the things we want to do. I understand the value of it. I


Tony and I are having a great conversation.


I just want the freaks to know that weirdo robot is in the room.

He can comment.

He's choosing to comment via Zap stream. I appreciate but consider sending a Zap with your message next time.

Well, that's a good idea. On top of that. But I I would love if Voltage supported multiple implementation. You want to be core and and, look, I love the Lightning Labs team.

Right? But, like, the dream of Lightning to me was always supposed to be, like, oh, like, we have this multiple implementation thing. There's gonna be competition.

And I'm a little bit disenfranchised at this point. Like, I just assume, like, what LND chooses is is the path we're gonna take.

I don't think Tap Pass has a future, period.

I know you guys probably can't comment on it.

Are you discriminating against Async?

Async is amazing. I recommend I recommended Phoenix last week, and it said people should use iCloud backups, and I got hate for it. So not so

okay. No. I mean, I think


I think you have a point. I think that it's something that, like, we definitely want to do. It's just a matter of, like, there's okay. There's there's a gigantic list of things to solve in lightning. Right? We just talked about a fraction of them. Yeah. That's all the problem. Yeah. We're trying to solve a lot of different problems. I think that that's one that's just one of the many that we just need to, like, kind of have as a prioritization. So I will take your feedback, and we will look at


prioritizing it. There you go. Thank you for your support, weirdo robot. We really appreciate it. Those 69 sets, I'm doing any data point billing on that.


Show me. Sure. Sure. I'm sorry. I'd be one of the Core Lightning customers too because, man, the pain the pain in the ass. In the Blackstream shirt. Yeah. I had to go. I'm not a Core Lightning Maxi, by the way, but right now, they have Lucas in the room. Yeah. But they have, they have they have the best, the best default twelve support right now, so that's why we used it for that. But, I would I would totally run it. Well, and, like, our our Flow 2.0 LSP runs on core Lightning. So, like, we we use it internally.


And so it's something we wanna do. It's just the the ways of kind of operating

that inside of voltage compared to LDs is very, very different.

So it's just more work. So it's just like one of those things where it's like, there's a checkbox that'd be done yesterday, but, you know, we'll

priorities, got engineering. We all this the entire team is in this room. We're not, as big as Blockstream or any of those other companies.


we'll add it to the list.


I mean, I would say I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I a 100% meant to put you on the spot.

Yeah. That's fine.


Well, I love Core Lightning, but it doesn't

like, it just needs a different What about LBK or async?


Oh, I Or or

or or, Electrum's Python implementation? Like, why don't you guys support Electrum's Python implementation?

Yeah. We were trying to be inclusive.


Diversity situation.


Like, l l d k is, interesting to, like, Well, l d k is not a node. Yeah. I guess it's not a node. You have to, like, build a node with it. If we build a node, it's But you could use I guess, support mutiny node.


I mean, we've trapped our engaged engine. Yeah. We I mean, we've we've, like, LDK node. Is an LDK node a node?


Sort of. Kind of. Yeah. But, like, also, mutiny has their mutiny node. Right? Yes. So Mutiny built a mutiny node using LDK. Right? It runs on a phone. It runs on a browser. It runs whatever.

If Voltage built a Voltage branded node Yeah. It would be with LDK.

Right. Like, it's just like a blend. It's a toolkit for building a node. 2 weeks. Yeah. It's a VM. No. I'm cool with that. I know that. Well, it's like also You heard it here first,

holds us too because they want the same APIs. Like Who is the market?

The business is building lightning.

Let's go. Because Let's have it happen. Because most people, like, don't it's it's one of those funny things where we're super proud of

the the UI redesign we do. It makes it more intuitive to use the product. But most customers don't come to our website. Right. They have their l and d node running,

and they have their lnd tooling already built. Like, it's already built into their application.

They did it. It's it's there, and it just ran it just runs, and they never come to voltage dot cloud. It's and it's fine. Like, that's great. Like, we're we're just there to be infrastructure.

So the people that want to


you know, against our personal


that we developed for our node, like, that's not, like, a big market pull. The market's been pulling us to to do deliver the l and d version.


Something that's compatible with that. Look. I'm fine with that. I only brought it up because Steven brought it up. Yeah.

Like, if if He'll he'll take the fall. If if if if the future is just l and d,

then let's just pretend the future is l and d. And if the future isn't just l and d Yeah. Then let's build the future we wanna see. I think the mobile story I think the mobile story is definitely one around LDK, in my opinion. Oh, no. I think the multi story is one around async. Like, Phoenix is dope as fuck. Like, I I built an implementation for a single app.


Boom. You did a great job at it. I like Phoenix. I I agree with you, but it's not that's not like it's not like extensible. Like, you I technically, maybe we could go build, like, a mobile app with Async's

technology and stuff. They've they've, like, done so much of, like, kind of internal

development between, like, their node. Yeah. And so it's like and that that's where to see this point, LDK is very much of, like, if I'm gonna go build my own mobile wallet or whatever Right. LDK is the only That's the only way to do it. You can do it with LND, but you know. Right. Like, I know like, I


know, like, LDK developers that just use Phoenix.

It just works really well. Yeah. Sure. Oh, it does. Yeah. Like, I'm not saying, like, they made it to be the the the reason they found success is because they didn't make it to be extensible or, like, usable by other people. Right. Like, they just made it for themselves. They just, like Yeah. They created a full vertical shop. Mhmm. Yeah. Right? Like, they have their own LSP. They have their own I mean, making stuff that you wanna use yourself is the best way to make stuff. Yeah.

I like the awkward silence is really good. Y'all see that game much better? A lot of people

in podcast apps use trim silence, so, like, it doesn't matter. Like, so we can just enjoy the silence. Oh. It's all just enjoy the silence for a second.


Imagine yourself going to your safe place. You can't enjoy the silence. You


can't enjoy the silence.

I mean, what do you, like, what are you guys excited about with BitHole?

Danny Knowles:

The Harbin.



Wait, how do you pronounce it? Halving. Halving.

It's a halving. The halving. Halving. Yeah. Halving. Halving. Yeah. Yeah.

Danny Knowles:

I think it's just a it's a huge major It's definitely not the halving.


I don't like the havening

as a term. I thought I've ever used a havening. It's a we shouldn't even give that word attention. Continue. Yeah.

Thank you, Bobby.

Danny Knowles:

I think it's just a it's a huge milestone, and I'm very, pleased to be alive around that time and into Bitcoin. But they always happen.


Yeah. I think they would have to happen once. Right? Yeah. Very true. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I'm This one tends to be very bad. All the price that It's It's it's happening. It's like your what? 6,000? No. It's the 3rd. I deal stop? I know there has it at 6. Listen. My 12.

I didn't when you set it up. And you haven't.

No. I mean, I think I think it's like

have havings are scarce just like Bitcoin. So there's only, you know, some I think what's interesting about this havin' is usually at this point in the havin'ing, it's like mining death spiral FUD. Yeah. Like, it should be people saying Yeah. The miners are all gonna turn off. We're usually dumping.

Right? Mhmm.

That's a good point. And it's like Bitcoin is going to die. Like, we are gonna hit the halving, and Bitcoin's gonna die. And then, like, I'm, like, arguing with, like, Joe Weisenthal.

Like, I'm the halving is not priced in, and, like, we have, like, all this back and forth, like, bullshit. She's But, like, right now, like, we're, like, sitting near all time highs. We had an all time high this week.

Probably the best all time high we've ever had because we just immediately dumped afterwards, which is beautiful. On me.

Did we hit over the week? Yeah. Like, I think it was after Yeah. Technically, the old time high already happened.

I'm absolved of all my sins from last cycle because

you technically could have sold

higher at any point


in those 20 seconds. I think they print as much money in the money supply in the last, what, 2 years?

Well, technically, it's not really Yeah. Technically




the like, 70.5


No. No. If you adjust by the bullshit inflation, it's 78 k. If you adjust by the real inflation, it's probably, like, $1,000

it looks like I don't I mean, that's a $100,000

is really in debt.

Not a $1,000.


Yeah. You're probably right. I will I'll go with that. Uh-oh. No all time high till 100 k. That's fine. No all time high. I mean, yellow is still doing don't stop believing till a 100 k.


I can't believe you're speaking. But I I still already think 100k is, like, nothing. It's fine. You're cool with a 100k? No. I mean, like, I mean, like, that's it. You're just gonna be chilling. You're gonna be chilling a 100 k? Like, you're not gonna be losing your shit, like, tits out?

Have I been?

I've been at a 100 k, though.

Danny Knowles:

Okay. But Yenno's doing the don't stop believing sort of, the Jones. Every day.


Every day. Like, it's been like


3 years. It's been like 3 years.

For 3 years, every day, he does the spaces on Twitter where he does Don't Stop Believing.

And then He plays it and then shows it. Sings to it. Right? He he, like, makes an art of it. That's, like, such a good still does it. I don't know if he still does it. I don't know who his guy is. Do he have a job?


No. He's a Yeah. He does. He does Don't Stop Believing every day. And his job. It's such an interesting job. It's for the community. It's his contribution. They never they never told me in school that that could be my job when I grew up. The government lied to me. Why you asking? The government lied to me. Why you asking? Yeah. They can go to school and everything. Yeah. Okay. So the having I mean, I'm pretty I'm I'm excited about the having. I say the halving as well because I think this for me personally, it's my first true This is your first halving? Oh, your first bull run. My first bull run. And when did you get into Bitcoin? Just before

Danny Knowles:

the this bear market.


So my sweetest year. 22 21? Holy shit. Yeah. Oh, this is fun.

Danny Knowles:

Oh, yeah. And then my brother's freaking go. Orange Pilby was only just before that. He's over at Swan, and he only I think he was a couple months before that, maybe 6 to 8 months. So this is, yeah, the full the first What do your parents think about Bitcoin?

Well, my mom's happy because we me and my brother continuously donating to her. So she's just watching her value go up and up and up every time she looks into the app. But apart from that, she's a Does she holds Bitcoin? On Blink Wallet. Yeah. We moved. Oh, cool. Yeah.


I like the Glide team. I think they're very practical. Yeah. Very cool team. Yeah.

So what is everyone else excited about with Bitcoin?

Are you guys excited about anything? Or everyone just seemed really bored when asked successful?

You just sat The the no. The dark gray just stopped. I knew that symbol.

Wait. So I still need a symbol. That's


what you're talking about.


Well, it's actually the standard. Why do they need a symbol? When you when you zap on Nasr, it's just like, oh, I sent you 42. I'm just observing. No. I sent you I sent you 200

of of the the monetary unit of the world. Yeah. Like, I don't need a fucking symbol for it. Just because Coinbase and other apps did a bad job displaying it early on doesn't mean sats are bad. Did did Coinbase ever display sats?


Did Coinbase ever display sats? No. But they're, like, 0.000007

blah blah blah. They still don't have lightning. He's he's he's saying because Coinbase screwed up the way that they display your Bitcoin balance doesn't mean that we need to, like, invent a symbol to, like Yeah. Just because It's just called Coinbase's problem. People to rethink one way, it doesn't mean that it needs to be changed. Like, that needs to be changed. The display simply needs to be changed. We don't need to re recreate it. Like, that's silly. Designer. Because you're right. And also, like, 21 stats. It's like someone gets You just get 21.


Yeah. And so it's like not even I just got 21 units of freedom.

Well, I agree. I agree. I think it's something like, we should talk to Kieran and be like, why does it say 69 sats? It should just say 69. No. But, I mean, I think sats is fine because that's not a symbol. That's just a word. It's zapped 69. And also say you got 69. And also, like, I People out of the room. This might be controversial.

This might be controversial, but it's Stay Humble Sax Ads ads is not Stay Humble Sax Satoshis. Like, I don't like satoshis. I like sans.

Because I think satoshis is, like, weird and, like, sad. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

You're like you're like you're like being an idol.


You think you're gonna change that to to a stack of Millisecets?



No. Come on. Millisecets. Millisecet or a Bitcoin. Because at that point at that point, I'm just gonna be, like, on my ranch with my goats and other stuff, and I'm just not gonna


like, someone else can do that next meme. Back to being excited about what's coming in Bitcoin, the thing that's exciting about Bitcoin is giving people from different walks of life the ability to earn it.


That's what's really exciting, having ways in which people can earn it. But that's what I think is, like, it's it stops being early,


is when the majority of people aren't buying Bitcoin. They're earning Bitcoin. That's the that's the turning to what Marty is talking about. Like, hey. If you're a designer, come to Bitcoin.

It's like, I love Wavelet. Everyone who, like, is Designers make no money in Bitcoin. Yeah. They don't. Yeah. But either way, like, you're gonna Wavelet get

started, but a lot of people that are, like, super psyched for either, it's like, oh Wave like is dope. Yeah. They're like, don't use Wave like. I'm like, I love Wave like. But the thing is is Well, you're an artist on Wave like. Yeah. We need the ability for people to come in easily. Can you sing for us? No.

No. Not right now.

We need the ability for people to come in easily. And the thing I'm really excited about is, like, on TikTok and all these little platforms, keep people like passive income, blah blah blah. Everyone's obsessed with money without doing work. Right. And when it comes to That's the problem with Bitcoin that requires work. Yeah. The thing about business is, like, your website's your 24

7 salesman. So when it comes to, like, Bitcoin and lightning, you have the ability to create tons of passive income streams. You're a good example of this, because I open fucking Prime on every tweet or every post you have, whatever note. It's like 2,000 sats. And I'm just like, you can just say things past me. But I spent so much money on Nostra. Like, I lose money. You spend that money.


You know, I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna do that. But for the audience listening. I think it's I I GM. Have you ever seen, like, the,


like, the always sunny, like, patty bucks? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's something I'm reading on Noster. Like, if I give them the patty bucks, then they need the patty bucks to see. Tracks how much you give, how much you give. How much you give. How much is the thieves? How much is this working? It's very, transparent. But I think the thing, like, people need to understand, especially younger folks who are obsessed with this idea of passive income who, like, wanna do less is

everyone is very creative in the young generation, and the thing they need to understand are the avenues and ways in which you can make money by leveraging Bitcoin and Lightning because you could be on Primal, you could be on Stacker News, you could be on,

all these other tools. You could run a node, whatever. You could run an online shop. You could, like, you could avoid fees like being on Etsy. And that that's the thing that's important for the next generation is how do you earn money when you're not actively doing work, but the work you put in, like, pays itself forward into the future? And that's what's exciting about Bitcoin, and that's what's cool about the tooling when it comes to, quote, unquote, design, like Marty says,

is designers coming to Bitcoin and making interfaces easier to interact with. It makes it makes the next generation's job easier to adopt it. And I think that's one thing, like, when Tony talks about the 2 Lightning Networks as the b to b one and then, like, the one for the norm user, the average user,

is the more average users we have on, the better we can support and supplement and run that network. And I'll shut up because I think that's, like, a big topic. But that's what's really exciting is the average person being able to use it.


Mhmm. Yeah. I think more exciting,

the the creative kids that wanna, like, be creative and get paid for that, that's

artists, and that's awesome. Yay them.

But, like, you also tweet a lot about, like, HVAC technicians. Like, let's do real fucking work and get create real money for real work.


And I think that's much more exciting than, like, TikTok videos getting sad streamed at them. 1000%. And, like, Chris Hoffman, one of the guys who's, like, a HVAC dude, he wants to not sell his company to private equity,

and he wants to build a company, and he inherited it from his father. I'm gonna tag him on this now that we're talking about it. But it's like someone was like a Bunkie Life, a Bitcoiner who, like, runs a company. He's doing well in Canada. He said, you know, 1% Bitcoin, 99% cash beats the s and p and this guy sold $11,000,000

worth of s and p stock to

pay, some floating debt in real estate. And he was like, why don't you do Bitcoin? And I was like, well, he's a steward to his dad's company that was passed down, him and his brother own. There's a board of people which he's openly discussed, and it's just like it's the hurdle of education. And it again comes back to in Bitcoin, there's a tremendous amount of education that's required.

Danny Knowles:

And Liam and I were talking about in front of Bitcoin Park, like, why do people not get it? And it's just Why are our eyes so open? And it's so vaguely obvious to us. But then you speak to friends and family, and you can show them the same

facts, the same things that are happening, the same blatant

miss misrepresentation

that's happening, but yet they still don't get it and it's like a weak bee.

Syndrome. Yeah. Like, where how how do you clear that? They have to admit that they fucked up


up until that point. Why is there one micro strategy?


Like, why isn't this HVAC company another micro strategy? So to my point Taylor publishes the playbook. Taylor can go fuck himself. Right. But but but it publishes the playbook. And, like, every company with cash flows could be there. At least every big company is that they're they're a leader to a group. They have a board of directors. If they just go on a a whim like, Sailor's interesting. Super Mike aren't even a special situation. Why can't everybody be Michael Sailor? Well, Michael Sailor said, everyone read this, and we'll come back and talk. Kinda like what we discussed earlier with the Bezos HR thing. Now let's have an intelligent conversation.

Don't show up and read it. Now you can talk about it, and we can challenge each other and have this, kinda like what Ray Dalio talks about, like, this meritocracy of openness, and we can challenge ideas. I don't think a lot of people do that. Nobody read it. Radical Candle.


Right. Yeah.


No. But, like, Michael Siller has, like, he has, like, an infinite debt spigot,

and he has like, he deserves some he I I was being provocative. Like, he deserves credit

in that

thanks. Yeah.

Thank thank you, Jesse Filipim. Thank you. Big big

I didn't know you I didn't know you could post memes directly in So I just didn't see the meme at all. More viewers

or listeners post memes, please. Do I mean but include zaps with them. This is the that's the humble value for value it's the humble value for value podcast. We do not have sponsors.

We do not have ads.

We're funded purely by the audience.

So, like, build Bobby's vision and send me sats for my TikTok videos.


You don't make sats on TikTok, though. That's the thing. It's not about TikTok. I never mentioned TikTok. It's about You did actually say TikTok, like, 3 times. What is TikTok?

Okay. Well, you clearly don't earn Sats on there, but that's where the kids are because they're trying to rely on all these advertisements. Yeah. We got the kids. I know your audience.

We got value for value, which Adam Curry is solving, where you don't need to, like Adam Curry hasn't solved it. Like, it's not perfect, but the whole point is Me and him run, like, the podcasting 2.0 charts. Like, we still make no money. Like, McCormick makes, like, 250 k a month on his fucking ads. And this is why we need young people to come in and do things. It's like dollars. If you can convert it to Bitcoin. I think a lot of these things intersect because Cathy Wood talks about on the podcast with Rod, I heard she's a shit coiner. Right. I don't care if she is. Like, let's let's be deliberate moving forward. But if she said, there's more people building on Replit than there are, like, engineering jobs and jobs available in America. So there's people out there seeking to do something. They want to learn. So what we need to do as educators is be very deliberate in terms of telling people about opportunity. Because if people knew the opportunity to build, and everyone who's seeking opportunity to build with these better skill sets know, if I build this, it creates an opportunity for me and everyone else to earn more. It brings more people to Bitcoin.

But we're gonna we're gonna interrupt each other and make memes and be silly, but these are, like, very important topics that are going to, like,

change the world. And it's, like, giving people the the clarity and the path they need to take. Because, yeah, TikTok's about to be banned in America. I don't know if y'all saw that post today, but, like, America's trying to No.


Fuck you.

Okay. TikTok like, if you're in a banned TikTok, you should ban Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and all the others. Oh,

They're not owned by the CCP. So oh, so they're only owned by the NSA. So, like Right. Oh, so all of a sudden, it merges against one social media that's owned by China.

It's like they they finally get a social media that's not USA owned, and, like, now we're against it.


No. I think the CCP is especially not aligned with America.


I think I mean, they really are.



the current administration aside,


like, yeah. I think if, like, there was a French one, that's that's fine. Oh, we're cool with the French. The French social media the French are never gonna have a social media competitor because they sleep all day.

That was nice. Totally. Right.

Fucking French.

I don't know. I like, the whole, like, TikTok, like, let's ban TikTok thing, like, it's it, like, pulls away the curtain of, like, the man behind the the man behind the curtain, which I know. I I think I fucked up the metaphor, but,


maybe. But there's, like, all this, like,


Google, like, doing the same thing. Media social media is

designed for control.

Right? It is it is

it is the single biggest addiction facing our country today. Everyone will talk about opiates. Oh, sure. You know, opiates is a a 1000000 yearly active users.

Social media is 8,000,000,000,

5 no. Like, 5,000,000,000, 6,000,000,000

daily active users. Like, people are addicted. Scroll, scroll, scroll,



like, like Right. What's exciting about Bitcoin? It changes the incentives on how we interact with the Internet. Because even right now, when it comes to AI, SEO, marketing, it's like, there's this debate of is is AI content gonna run the Internet or,

like and and the bigger problem is, like, AI

content eventually won't be able to be crawled or scrubbed by Google to identify it because it will become more like us. Because people are like, can I upload myself to AI? And it it would be natural.

Right. So it's it's like

dream. It's gonna come down, like I think Max Webster has a really

good point of, like, the whole value transfer. But it's like, you know, how do you do it and all this stuff. But it's Okay. It's going to come down to, like, a Reddit upvote system in the most simple form. Like, people are gonna have the ability to do that, and that's

that's gonna be key, I think. Kim, we keep talking over you. Apparently, this guy thinks so too.


What do you what do you have to say? Yeah. Why can't we hear ladies slash women speak here? The only the only reason we're in this room is because of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.


Everybody who has anything to offer the world should definitely

run a lightning node to be able to send or receive payments, even if you don't think anybody's ever gonna pay you in Bitcoin. Every HVAC guy should have a lightning node running a Oh, why? Because

we all talk about, oh, like,

you know, circular economies, and we want to grow this and why aren't people using it? Well, they're never going to use it if we don't start putting it out there, right? Like Doctor. Fromo. Do you think anybody in Ashland City is going to his car wash and paying with Bitcoin? No. No, but it's there for them. And he's running the node, and he's it's sitting there. He's running his voltage node. He's being the change he wants to see in the world. Yeah. Yeah.


You wanna be the change you want. Don't say it to your wife. It is a mindshare thing. You're right. Right. It's my superpower.


To a wife. We have to change that mentality of, like, why would I run a lightning node? That's stupid. I don't have anything. Okay. Well, then nobody's ever gonna fucking use it. Well It's top of the funnel. It. Yeah. You you I run a node. Hey. Pay me in Bitcoin. Oh, if you pay me in Bitcoin, I'll I'll give you a 2 or 3% discount. Like, it's top of the funnel. Like, it no. It No. I agree with you. It's just I would go the other way. Do a price increase in dollars.


Sure. Yeah.


You don't wanna ostracize the 98%.


You wanna incent Yeah. It costs more in dollars.


we still beat you get this kind of Bitcoin. Yeah. Right. You just you just shifted it out of pocket. We're just framing. That's the reason HVAC people don't take us seriously.

Well, when are we gonna tell you how's Bitcoin users? I I think HVAC people do.

We have, I mean, we have plumbers. We have HVAC people. That's the cool part about Bitcoin. Yeah. Because, like, we have people of all walks of life already. I think the, like, the individual, like, the very Stop stop trying to orange pill people. They will come when they need it. They'll come when they figure it out. Like, we don't have to. You don't have to, but if it's not sitting there ready for them to use or if we're not orange peeling, like, they'll come to it. But if it's not sitting there ready for them to use, if doctor Fromo takes his voltage stone down, has no way of off No one no one is gonna

no one is gonna decide that they're gonna

use Bitcoin based on whether or not their local car wash accepts Bitcoin. Not what I'm saying, but it's there. So when they're ready, he doesn't have to scramble and come up with, like,


oh, oh, and the stupid fee thing. Whatever. He's got his channels. He's got everything there. It's


that I It's a low time service. You wanna see. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Change you wanna see in the world, Kim. That's true. Have you considered this?


What else is other folks excited about? Like, with Bitcoin, do they? Earning. I like earning. Earning's big.

Danny Knowles:


Working for Blink to earn Bitcoin. It's pretty cool. You're working for Blink? Just a couple of bits. Yeah. Design. Couple of bits you worked for? Is that in time period?

No. A couple of bits of work. Sorry. What is it? Small

Is that an English thing? Like, you get a 1,000 sad. It's

cool early. It's better earning in Bitcoin. Yeah. It feels good. It's quick. It's seamless.


What is is anyone else excited about anything? You guys just, like, all just, like, 9 to 5 You're 2 voltage. We all hate Bitcoin. We just, like, do it because it pays the bills. Just like this doesn't help 540 here. Now you're, like, I'm 40 minutes past the clock.


This doesn't help the protocol, but we just, ten x the size of ATL BitLab.

Oh, that's fucking good. Yeah. So we're now That helps the protocol. Huge. Yeah. So, yeah, we have we've got Like, from, like, 2 to 20?

No. Well, we already had about 12. Full footage. We yeah. Like, square footage.

Oh, shit. Like, land like, actual Yeah. We're we're in our own, like, big space now. Oh, okay. We've we don't even have enough desks yet to fill the space. Stay humble, Steven.

Making people stand to work and hold their laptop. Yeah. Yeah. No. They could do that. That would work. But yeah. So, I mean, we're excited about it because now we can start. You know? We just got more room for bigger Atlanta sneaky has a very strong Bitcoin community.

We no. You guys have, like, the Rose Bowl, like, back in, like, 20 15 or whatever? Which I don't remember. Wasn't it the didn't we have the actual Super Bowl at one point? No. But it was the Bitcoin Bowl. It wasn't the Rose Bowl. Oh, that Cash App thing that


Cash App thing or whatever? Yes. There's the best Like, the basketball Cash App thing, you may have? No. No. There was the fucking Bitcoin Bowl. BitPay paid for it before they went shit for it.

What? Called the Google. Yeah. Yeah. It was called the Bitcoin Bull.

We had that. It was, like, 2014 in Atlanta.


Like, prospective investor dinner for 10:31 in Atlanta, and there's, like, all these, like, random BitCorners that popped up for it. Yeah. I mean, we've we've got a there's a meet up, at least one meet up every week, and so there's always,

there's always something going on Bitcoin wise. And now now the thing that's really cool is just that, there's people who regularly come in to, like, work at BitLab. And so because we got people from a variety of different Bitcoin companies like,


like FETI and, you know, Voltage, obviously. What do you think about Ecash? Are we excited about Ecash? Because I don't know. I think it's all Ecash. I was holding my tongue much. Let's start the spicy e cash conversations.


What's spicy about e cash? It's the future You know We are debating it.


I'm I have no problems with eCash. You idiot. It sounds like How do I? Yo. Robots will be paid with me out in a in a

chat here. Robots will be paid with eCash, weirdo. I have no problem. I have no problem with it. Matt, if if if Vault 12 and all the mobile lightning wallets fail, at least, you know, there can be eCash. So if Vault 12 Vault 12 requires LND to play ball, eCash doesn't. Yeah. I mean, if if That's the beauty. If mobile any thoughts fail, we'll just go to eCash. My Bitcoin then is no protocol changes.

This thing works. And eCash works.

Like, it just fucking works. And the beauty is is, like, okay. If Lightning is an interoperable payment protocol between

custodians, let's make the custodians better.

And eCash

single handedly makes the custodians better. They can't tell you what your transactions are. They give you privacy. They give you censorship resistance because you can't tell what people are transacting, who they are. And then you add Fedimint on top of that whole fucking thing, and all of a sudden, the rug pull risk gets reduced significantly.

And all the hardcores will say, like, oh, all the Fedimint

guardians could all be the same fucking person. Well, yeah, on Walnut satoshi, it's all the same fucking person already. Like, the status quo is that people are using custodian. Let's make the custodians better. But do you I I was like, I I I don't have a strong opinion on this, but I'm gonna play devil's advocate. And then Do it. Like, there's like so okay. So for, like, you know,


a large say, Cash App does e cash for, like, their balance holder.

But, like, like, they have they have they have, like, requirements by government to do, like, this KYC and all those things. Like, so what custodial service would use this anonymous e cash back end The beauty of e cash


is you could do KYC

on entrance, exit, and we're still at a way better status quo than we are in the current system.

Like, they could do all their full KYC requirements.


In the best case. In the best case? If all the custodian or the Yeah. You know, federation members,


collude, then Yeah. No. No. No. But I'm saying, like, in the in and the out, they can do

It's not They could do KYC on the in and the out, and we're still better than the status quo.


But I've never heard I've never heard anybody advocate for e cash to save your generational wealth or whatever. No. Of course not. E cash is it's spending. It's fast. It's instant. No. No. It's a better custodian. Right? It's a much better custodian.


Much. Let's improve the custodians.

Right. Like, it's it's actually a tangible goal we can have without a protocol change because Like, your rugging risk for your pocket money,


like, will always be non zero.


And I But we can reduce that risk with Fedimint.

Sure. And we can reduce we can reduce the privacy risk with just straight up e cash, period. Yep. Whether that's single sig or Fedimint. So Yeah. And it's like the cashew mints being interoperable.


Like, say, we do cashew instead of Fedimint. Right? But they're interoperable because of Lightning. Over Like, that's where Lightning comes to the eye. Exactly. And that's Because Lightning's amazing as an interoperable payment protocol between custodians. We already know that. Right. So somebody like, I get paid in, like, some cashew that's, like, a total shit point that I don't trust or whatever.

And it instantly converts into the e, the cashew

that meant that I trust Right. In some way that I choose to have a relationship.

It's like choosing who you have relationships with, and that's what's kind of It's free banking. Changing around that. Yeah. Free banking. Absolutely.


Yeah. The the main issue I have and that shit. He came way closer. He came in. He's there. You you said he can't be there. I'm fucking there. Somebody he's the weirdo, man. He gave me he gave me his seat. He gave me his seat.

The only the main By the way, guys, this is a weirdo robot. Right? I don't see.


The main the main issue I have is a lot of the marketing, whether intentional or not, which I have a feeling it's nonintentional. It just so happens that a lot of big time Bitcoiners are also very much into, like, Fedimint,

eCash. You've got the entire Mutiny team who are killer, by the way. Tony, don't hurt me. Are they big time Bitcoiners? Are they influencers?


You know what? We're scared of them, so he said don't. Yes. Exactly. I will I don't get that.


No. Can we just set the record straight? Like, Tony, Ben, Paul, influencers.

Absolutely. Yes. They've been on this podcast before, so they're obviously into the micro. They're influencers.


Okay. Continue. Continue.

The only the only problem I have with it is it it's considered a Mhmm. Everyone talks about it as a scaling solution for Bitcoin. Not a scaling solution. Because the are never a good scaling

No. It's a scaling solution. It's not a scaling solution for Bitcoin because it's not Bitcoin. No. It's eCash. Exactly. But it's so It has to be. And that's fine. ECash. And I have I have absolutely no problem with the technology itself. If, like, my parents wanted to come into Yeah.

Tony is calming your nerves. Okay? You gotta be more you he and I have already got this. And he understands my point, and I understand his. My only issue with it, it has nothing to do with the technology because I think the people that are behind it are fucking killer. The issue I have with it is

everybody's understanding is, like, oh, it's Bitcoin. It's No. It's not Bitcoin. It's an IOU. It's literally an IOU. Exactly. But most people don't know that.


And it's people are not using Bitcoin.


I We're we're on the I get it. Like, Michael Saylor's a 100,000,000 number is bullshit. I will talk to people, and I'll mention this shit. 5. That are Bitcoin, and they're like, oh, it's a scaling solution of Bitcoin. I'm like, that's like saying Ethereum is a scaling solution for Bitcoin. It is. You atomic swap over to it. You do your shit. You get some ass shit and you come back. Ish. It's fuck you know, it's the same thing. And I'm like,

Where's the Okay. Fine. Like, yeah. It's but it's not great. You know? It's but it's fine. If if

I think I think things like we take the custodial solutions that we use now, like StackrNube He's writing semantics wrong. Yeah.


It's all spelling.



I I think I wanna If you take something like Stackr news,

and instead of having it be the custodial solution, which I'm not sure what they're running behind the scenes, but whatever they're running behind the scenes,

and they do

they run some sort of Chow Meaney cash, whatever it is, whether it's a sentiment or whatever.

It's it's gonna be better than what they have now. I agree.


And if that if that means that people can Custodians can never be a scaling solution. Like, I don't I don't think I don't think custodians are a scaling solution.

They're just what it is right now. Like, right now, people use custodians.

And it's because of it's because of the realities of the protocol and because of how people interact with the protocol that they they realize whether they whether they actually realize it or not. They realize the realities of the protocol and they use custodians.

We can improve the custodians. But we like, I will never call it a a a scaling solution Yeah. For a lot of brokers. I think that

that is the way it is marketed. It is marketed as a scaling solution. It is barely marketed, period Right. Right. In general. Like, it's like we're all die hard. So, like, we see, like, e cash propaganda all day every day. They're like that door. But that's just, like, a dozen of us. It sounds like you're heavily VCs. It's heavily I mean, I'm one of the VCs backing Patty. Very nice. Right. Yeah. Sounds like you're your your issue is not necessarily


correct me if I'm wrong here. You're saying it's not the your issue is not with the technology

itself or people, you know, that that people might wanna use it. Your issue is, like, how it's being framed

and and that you think that there is a misunderstanding and a miscommunication

about it and that you prefer that people understood a little bit better

the differences


between it and Bitcoin. I mean, I Is that right? Yes. I think and, again, I don't even think it's on purpose. I just think we happen to have a lot of Bitcoiners who are very well known. It's definitely not very much into it. Okay. I feel like you're talking about me, and I'm, like, right next to you. I'm not.

He's mostly talking about, like, First of all, number 1 number 1 thing I want to clarify here is is, like, VC backed in Bitcoin is different than, like, VC backed normally. Like, they're not flying private jets. Like, Tony, Ben, and all of them are, like, they're still eating ramen noodles. Like, he flew Coach for Madera,


I assume. I've signed him more Gucci the other day. I know. I'm just changing.


Based on the amount of fun a good cigarette. Based on the amount of fun he received, I assume he he flew coach from Madera. He went to talk. They need Ramen. Like, they're like, it's not like your typical Silicon Valley VC backed whatever. Like, we're, like, we're trying to make a difference here. And then the second thing is,

the the the second thing is is is is you have to just look at, like,

the realities of the situation. Right? Like, I've been in Bitcoin long enough. Like, people choose the cheapest, most convenient way to use Bitcoin, period. And and what that means is they use WalletHub's.

What that means is, like, the crypto people use Tether on Tron.

Like, they use whatever's cheapest,

easiest, most convenient,

and they don't realize rug pull risk until after the fact.


I fucking hate Tony, you're not never getting another check, by the way.

So the the the key the key here is is, like, how do how do we improve

people's experience with Bitcoin without a protocol change, period. And that's eCash. Sure. That's straight up eCash. Like, let's improve the custodians.

If we get bolt 12, if we get,

you know, any kind yeah. CTV.

Like, we get,

I'm I'm I'm not advocating by the way, this is not me advocating for CTV because I've been on those Twitter lists, and we're like, these 10 people decide, like, oh, I will change Bitcoin based on it. Like, fuck you. Make your own fucking decision.

But, like, I am not banking on a protocol change. Right. I wanna improve the situation for Bitcoiners right now, and that is Bitcoiners are using custodial solutions,

and we should make the custodians better. Like the custodians shouldn't know every single transaction you make. And we should we should federate those custodians so that they can easily rug pull you and we should make it very easy

for people to spin up competing ones. Like, it's it's very difficult to to to spin up a competing wallet with a satoshi.

Like, imagine if on voltage,

it was one click, and I can I can spin up a competing wallet of satoshi that was completely private, that was federated? Like, that would be fucking dope. So should our next private? That would improve that would improve the situation for people. It should. And that's why that's why I care about Fedimint. That's why I care about eCash. Like, I think it it actually does help the status quo currently.

And, like, all the VC backed nonsense is like, the VCs we're all struggling with all of you.

Like, I guess not.

Like, I'm not wondering, like, I like Gucci


Should should our next product should our next product be Fedimed Guardian nodes on voltage?



It's not ready. You know it's not ready, though. There's there's not ready. When will it be ready? Be the change you wanna see in the world. Kim told you. Be the change. Be the change you wanna see in the world. Problem, but I know it because I ran it. I'm bringing Kim into it. Terribly bugged. It was Kim's idea. There's another market. Look, you have an improvement. It's like, if the government comes in and they can't confiscate it. They can't take the value. They can only shut it down. It's different from, like, confiscating goals because you're, like, actually taking that value away. So it's marginally better in a sense.

I think the important that's how we win. The important piece of this is that the card and e cash stuff e cash stuff absolutely has a place.


Right? It's important for people to realize that when they put Bitcoin into it,


they are not getting the the token that they are getting is not Bitcoin. It's an IOU. It is an IOU. A perfectly private IOU. That is that and that's that they could transfer

coin. Completely. It's a bit better than that. Doesn't say that. People buying Bitcoin. Coinbase is pretty good.


So, like, it's like No no one online can see this, but everyone in the room is standing up ready to throw punches now. Right. It is it's getting very heated here. But I think I think so Bitcoin.


Let let so I think that to to Tony's point, spelling aside, is that,


it's like it's like Tony's spelling is fucking horrible.


I didn't Tony, I didn't say that Matt did. But Evan from Zeus has amazing spelling.

Well, like, no. Like like like What is capitalization?

Literally, like, these are these are all, like, semantics that, like, are that don't exist anywhere else outside of Bitcoin for the most part that are, like these are, like, very big distinctions between, like, things that we, like, in this room are all, like, very passionate about, the difference between the two. But it is, like, very hard to communicate the difference between these, like, the outside world. And that's something I think Bitcoin in general needs to do better of is, like, communicating

what is the thing that is, like that is needed for a particular use case or anything like that. Right. Like, when does it matter that you use eCash? When does it matter that you use a Bitcoin UTXO? When does it matter that you do a lightning channel or whatever? Right. And to to, an unknowing user, like, they have no fucking idea. It's all just garbage, and it's just all, like, this mess. Shit. Fuck. Right. And so, again, that's

you said something earlier when we first started about, like, naming of, like, Magma and Hydro. Like, it's like there's, like we do a bad job of naming. Harming. We do a bad job of naming. We do a bad job of, like, differentiating between

products and when they need to be used and when they don't need to be used. And I think that's something that can be really enhanced. And to to Tony's point, like, it's all semantics of, like and that's that's

weird robots. Point 2. Weird robots. Weird robots point 2 of, like it's like, I think we could do a better job of just, like, communicating about, like, what it is and, like, maybe servicing it in the right way of what is the appropriate use case for the job. Yeah. Right? And it's like there is if you're trying to store, like, your life savings in, like, a a censorship resistant way, e cash is not the way. You need to use, like, a Bitcoin UTXO or something.

And, you know, if you want to have a spending balance, like, e cash is probably fine, and, like, you can store money there. But it's just, like,

semantics is hard is what I'm saying. And it's never been actually so hard as it is in Bitcoin

because this is like it's so they're so extreme of, like, of,

the spectrum is so extreme between, like, a coin base and, like, owning your UTXO and, like, a gold card and you're safe at home that's fireproof resistant, all those things.



correct me if I'm wrong. The purpose of FETI isn't really for us.

Right? It's for people making, like, a dollar a day.


No. I mean, that's just like a narrative. Okay.


Alright. I mean Marketing? Because we're talking about, like, savings shouldn't be it. But some people's savings probably will be it in some parts. I mean, I think it's I think I think I'll tell you it's part of marketing. It's a private lab there. It's collaborative custody. Yeah. Do you like to gamble? It's for


you. No. No.


Is it true? People You could. People like, this whole global south narrative has completely overtaken the Fedimint discussion, in my opinion. Yeah. But really, Chaumie and eCash was originally designed for privacy.

And I kinda like the idea of, like, if you wanna, you know, be private with, you know, some big amounts of money, could you you could swap it into a federation

with Ecash and then swap it out at some point. It's like, you know,

you're trying to do workshops and it's like, should I use Ronin Dojo? Should I use Wasabi Wallet? Should I, like, you know,

you know, go to a hobo and pay him to go inside and buy me a burner phone and then use a burner phone to buy a laptop, install Tails OS,

and then and then get my Bitcoin that way. Yeah. Tails. Okay. Yeah.

No. No. On the laptop, then I had to activate the email account on the TailsOS laptop using the burner phone. And then I bought my non KYC Bitcoin, and it's like, you know, hey. I changed the MAC address on my laptop artificially

and was in a Starbucks while I was using it with my hood up so that nobody freaking saw me on a security camera. That's how I get my no cable. No. These privacy things don't work. So, like, e cash, what if we just, like, swapped it in, swapped it out? There you go.


That's what we pulled out. Hold on, though.

It did, like I can't wear the hoodies He's not even wearing a hood, but he stimulated the hood. Yeah. Simulated it. Yeah. Most people pay for the hood, and you assume they could get that computer.




Tony's saying there's a million things self custodial lightning can't do. He said can't in all caps. You should've done the whole thing in all caps for a very long time, and eCash solves those friction points, or you can wait for the bolt 12 unicorn async world.


I agree. I think And he's right. I love eCash first. Like, solving this, like, end youth logic. It just works today with no protocol change, period. It so it sounds like we're, like, everyone's, like, in agreement here. It's just kind of like the some it's, again, the semantics of, like, how do you how do you present it and, like,


what we're sorry. I didn't answer real much. I didn't really do it. Oh. I think Bob. I mean, Bob.


Graham Graham is passively, aggressively indicating that I should go do some fake mobile and go to, you know, try and figure out if a brain be worth it. Us, man. Okay. So okay. So, Matt, so I have a question for you. So you're talking about protocol level changes. Are you


are you against protocol level changes, or are you just not waiting for those to happen?


I'm just waiting because I would you know, I'm look. Bitcoin's value prop is that it's hard to change by default. Yeah. Mhmm.

Like, protocol changes should be very fucking difficult. Sure. And I'm not gonna waste my time waiting for them.

Very And here I am. And I'm and, like, people need funding and support on things that don't require protocol changes, and I am going to support them. And and one of the beautiful things about

10 thirty one's value prop

for investors is that there's so many investors that invest on protocol changes,

and they do, like, ridiculous valuations on those things. And then, like, we just get to, like, have her pick a litter of non protocol changes things. Mhmm. So, like, we we could provide good value to the investor. We provide good value to the network.

Everybody wins. But, like, I will not I'm I will never

If it's not live,

it's not happening. That's how it should be. Right now and run CTV if you want to. Yeah. And no one will use it. Yeah. And


I I totally agree. And there's, like, a good heros. I've written a couple angel checks, like, in my life, and it's really nice. Like, you just wanna minimize the number of miracles that you're investing in. Yeah. They're like very appealing to miracles, and adding a protocol change on top of that is


1. Ridiculous. Like, do not expect protocol changes, period.

And, like, on lightning, for whatever reason, people are like, oh, like, protocol changes are more possible. Like, no. Not really. It's like, does does l and d agree? Right. So I mean, I mean, that that is that is the reality of the situation. And so, like, we end up in, like, a lightning address world,

you know, where everyone's using lnurl.


Well, yeah. Like so, like, that that that I guess that's why I asked is because there there are people out there that are like, Bitcoin should never change or whatever. But it's just clarifying to know that you are you're not against change. You're just like you're not gonna you're not gonna wait on that time. No. The reason I'm a maximalist on Bitcoin is because I believe that Bitcoin will change with momentum. Like Mhmm. But the the the question is is it requires, like,


a overwhelming amount of momentum.

Mhmm. Right. Right? So, like, it's very rare that that will happen. But when when it does happen, it will happen. And, like, that's why I can, you know, store my family's wealth in Bitcoin

is because, like, when there is an overwhelming

desire for this thing. This is what people miss with b cash.

Like, b cash was

was just a disaster. Like, no one wanted to invest in b cash. Oh, I love my savings. There was

but there there was no desire there was no desire there, and there was also, like, there was no debt manpower. There was no real

real motivation

for that change.

But, like, if there was actually, like, a real motivation for a change, like, Bitcoiners will

protect their wealth and change.

And as a result, like, the ledger that is Bitcoin, like, you own this UTXO, Graham owns this UTXO,

That ledger


Right? And, like, we want that to preserve through time. So no matter what, like, Bitcoiners will always make sure

that that is the ledger

that holds well.

And but it it requires this, like,

really hard to measure until after the fact kind of measurement.

But but at the the the my point is the whole point of this thing is, like, you just don't expect change.

Like, at the end of results

the non change is the default. Yeah.

And when change is necessary, it will happen.

And fuck you if I'm your oracle for that.

Yeah. Because I do not want to be the oracle for that. And and anyone of integrity should not want

to be the oracle of that. And and and and it'll be what it'll be. But at the at at in the short term, focus on things that don't require protocol changes. Well, sure. It's a very easy solution,

and I wanna see things that ship. I wanna things see things that I can touch in my hand. And, like, we can talk about all the, like, ridiculousness

about, like, all these different proposals or whatever. But at the end of the day, like, if I don't see them and I can't use them, then they're they're irrelevant to me. Like, I'm not gonna pay attention to them. Yep. And that totally makes sense, I think, from an investor angle and also It's not even an investor angle, but investor angle comes second. I know. You're talking about the podcast on how you basically told us leave off the philosophical bullshit. Let's talk practical,


Bitcoin discussion. But I broke that. I get it. But, you didn't break it. No. It's funny. Because I talked about philosophical,

protocol stuff. But I get it. It does make sense because


you make a company and your company You wouldn't like Breedlove about it. Like, you're good. No. But I I mean, I thought about protocol changes. I get it. But here's the thing.

I get it. Because if you make if you make a company, a Bitcoin company, and your company hinges on a protocol change, that's not a good company. Yeah. And then you raise, like like, Paul Stork Sports or whatever however fuck you pronounce his name. Like, he raised, like, $4,000,000


on a protocol change. Never gonna fucking happen. And he and it's, like, fucking ridiculous. And that it's beautiful from a 1031 perspective because, like, they just wasted $4,000,000.

You know? But, like, from a big like, the thing is, like, everyone wants to I always talk about

I know I've won

when all the conspiracy theories are, like,

the big corners are behind it. You know, like, we we should be they. That'll be good. Like, they should all be we should be they. But,

like, the thing is is

is is my sheer motive is

increasing the value of my Bitcoin stack.

Like, I

my family stores are valuing Bitcoin.

That is my ultimate motive. Like, people can talk about 10:31. People can talk about Open SaaS. People can Bitcoin is in the room.


You're in the room.

You don't even attach a a zap to that. Yeah. So much fun.


Support the show.

They can't stop it.

It's it's about it's about like, the the number one incentive for me is always about increasing the value of my Bitcoin and and making sure my Bitcoin is is still spendable.

Right? Because, like, that's what people miss. Right? Like, people say, like, store value versus spending Bitcoin.

Right. It's it's all interconnected

because there's no value stored if I can't spend it without permission. Yeah. Like, you need both.

You need both. And, like, that is my pure goal. My pure goal is

that. And and to be honest, like, I'm towards the end of, like, my public persona. Like, I am very tired. I'm a tired


man. This is very enjoyable. Thank you, guys. This is the last episode of Sedge of Distash. Thank you all. Yeah. Yeah. It's a blast to do it with you. Do not like and subscribe.



Keep zapping.

But, yeah, keep zapping. We can use

diapers are expensive.

But, like but that's what it's about. Right? Like, it's about like, that's the beauty of Bitcoin. It's, like, we have this shared equity. Right? It's, like, Voltage like, I love you guys. Like, you guys are all, like, your family. Like, it's ridiculous.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

Voltage is not part of the 1031 portfolio.

Mhmm. And, like, it's one of the ones that I wish was,


but it's not. We'll talk after the show. Yeah.


But Do you think, Bitcoin will ever become boring?


Yeah. It is boring already. Aren't you guys bored?


Like, why do we keep talking about I talk about it because people want us to talk about it, but I'm like, really all day. We feel it and make it new and fun. Yeah. I get. But it is a little bit boring at this point. Everything in life is a little bit boring and same with Bitcoin. But it's honestly whenever we get together when it's, like, kind of exciting. Yeah. You talk about the shit you can build because it's, like, where's the world going skating to the park? Yeah. I I will talk about Bitcoin


for hours and hours and hours. One day, Bitcoin will be boring. Bitcoin will just be money. No one will no one no one asks, like, how does email work? Yeah. Right. They just fucking use the thing. Bitcoin is Right? Like, no one's gonna ask how Bitcoin works. No one's gonna like, billions of Bitcoiners will exist

that never question

anything about how it works. It's just how they send money across the world. So in 40 years, we're gonna just be like Not 40 years. Why are you being so bearish? It's kinda like Yeah. Yeah. That is. 80s? Remember the good old 80s? Yeah. I really hope it's not 40 years. Like, no reason. I'm just sticking to a number that makes us old, but not dead. But certainly So The odds are pretty boring until you have a way to earn it. You know? When you have a way to earn it, you become very excited because that's But no one knows how the dollar works. No one knows how eBay works. No one knows how Internet works. I would say who emails they'll be. Bitcoin users in the future will know how Bitcoin works. This is true. Yeah. They get confused when I ask that. I think,


that the Bitcoin culture has gotten very boring, but Bitcoin building is never boring. Yeah. The philosophy shit. Fuck that shit. The


hours and hours are, like, oh my god. Like, Bitcoin, like, ships won't sink.

Like, we'll have Bitcoin. Yeah. Like, how could the ship sink? Like, fuck. What are you talking about? It's

fucking bullshit.

So if you're not building, like, that's how you end up. Right? Like, if you if you leave if you leave the technical side of Bitcoin for too long,


you end up in, like, a 10 hour brief question. So whenever, what was it? Facebook and Instagram went down, and the next day, LinkedIn go down. Was there, like, a boost at all to, like, noster

join sign ups? I didn't look. I know there's a website that tracks it. Look. As far as I'm concerned on Noster, like

You didn't answer my question.


Four words, that's all you get.


As far as I'm concerned,

you were not gonna answer my question.

He could see it. Low time frame for it's Bobby. Yeah. More words. Yes. We had we had a massive boost to master. It was? I don't know. I just made it up. Alright. 50th. I'm just I'm just telling who it was. And, like, you probably gotta come. You know? Everyone just went outside. Look. Look. I've

I've I've lost faith I've lost faith in Bitcorners in terms of the Nostra side, and I just don't even give a shit. Like, the ride or dies are Nostra.

The only people left on on Twitter are blue checks and their simps.


that's just that's just what it is. That's that's what it is. Like, you guys are addicted to fucking Twitter,

and you don't really give a shit that that Elon does not care about you guys. And you just wanna be on a centralized platform, and that's fine by me. Why wouldn't Elon care about me?

Yeah. Exactly. That's my point. Talked about. I think I mean, Snowden even more Why I think I think you


heard that question the wrong way.

Elaborate. Like, why would

I think he's trying to say it's rhetorical. He's like, why, yeah, why would Elon Elon care about me individually? Why would anyone care about me individually?


That's the whole point. It's like it's like so Bitcoin is talking big game, but, like, you're gonna be paying for your CBDCs.

You're gonna be paying for this check with CBDCs.

You guys are all gonna be using CBDCs, and, like, the argument is gonna be, like, it's for the mission. I'm doing it for the mission. Like, Bitcoiners

on CBDC platforms need to know about CBDCs and Bitcoin, you know, and you're just gonna, like, go down all the path. It's all bullshit. Was all talking like Yeah. The ride or dies this week. The ride or dies are already on Noster. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm cool with the ride or dies. Like, James Deloft talked about it. They made the updates. Yeah. But he's also still on Twitter. Yeah. The phone yeah. Yeah. You're right. Where when a phone call is made, they're gonna track your IP because it's easier to handle the data versus, like, managing it themselves. So much easier. Turn it off.


Yeah. Yeah. We're all fucked. I mean


be the change you wanna see in the world, Bobby. You're not the software. Well, let's make Noster not boring.

Noster isn't boring. He got us by the throat with the $30 a month of They all talk about the same thing every day. Right. It was just, hey. All Bitcoin. Am I the people. Yeah. But all I wanna talk about all they're talking about on Twitter is Bitcoin anyway. What are you guys talking about on Twitter? Things you're gonna find, other topics.

How so so be the change you wanna see in the world, Justin. Oh, wow.

Here. Look at what Bob's talking about. They log into clients with their insect. How do you go about that? Like, you know Why is CD not on TikTok yet, Tony? Because I have fucking morals unlike you. Right. What the fuck are you doing?

Wait. Wait.


I can't imagine. You're defending.


Tony is an avid TikTok user. I can't imagine. For sure.


TikTok. But he's a CCP Tony did Spider Man mask on. I found his account.


Okay, guys. This has been a fucking great rail. Can I get can I get final thoughts from every single one of the 12 people in the room?

Tony and Ben are both bears. Okay. We're gonna start with final thoughts. We're gonna we're gonna start with final thoughts from Graham. Final thoughts. Final thoughts. I mean, I think that I think the takeaway here is that there's,


the the the fun part about Bitcoin is currently in the builder phase of, like, what can you make and what can you do to improve the protocol, the technology, all of those things.

And so

yeah. I mean, I think that's where we're excited about. Anyone that is excited about

that, like, particular area, you know, come to Voltage. Hit us up.

Yeah. I won't even spill all of, like, the other, like, channels or, like, my personal shit. But

hit up,

and we will help you get into the matrix

or out of the matrix, which is which is the You definitely want out of the matrix. You definitely want out of the matrix. We'll help you get out of the matrix

and and come into this Bitcoin ecosystem fully.


Thanks, Graham. Weird up. Almost like I'm gonna see if you know my name.


Yeah. I mean, I also know your legal name, but I didn't Yeah. E Cash is fine. They are social. Yeah.

That was right. And Tony and Bob, what's up? Nice.


That's all I got.


No bugs, no pods, no blue checks. Yeah. That's fucking it. Check out DLC



It's a cool project.

You want some cool stuff.

Danny Knowles:

Ali, this is not on Bitcoin because I said Bitcoin's boring, but, I'll leave this on Voltage. He's an incredible team and one of the best teams I think I've ever worked with. So if you're not on Voltage, get the fuck on it.


Yeah. It's from Carlsdale.


I just wanna say it's all weird robot spells.


But, learn how to earn money with Bitcoin.


Bitcoin is not boring yet, and that's a good thing for us. And, yeah. I love like like, Behm said, I love this team, and it's the best team I've ever worked on. So Let's fucking go.


We are all gonna die one day, so don't waste precious seconds of your life trying to orange pill your friends and family. Enjoy it with something more beautiful. Next time you're in Atlanta, stop by ATL BitLab and support bolt 12.


That's what I can get. Weaponize the copyright system with Copyleft software.


Yeah. Good one. There you go. It's the best time ever to build on Bitcoin. Absolutely.


Fuck Bitcoin. You all have girlfriends, so

go marry them and make baby.




Did you hear that, Kendrick?



My apologies. I thought my time was up.


No. We can continue if you like.


what did you say to the to the lady in the parking structure? You took my damn parking spot. I told her I didn't take your damn parking spot.

And how did that make you feel reacting that way? I felt decent.

Oh, how come?


Because I did take a party spot.



You texted me at 2 o'clock in the morning.

I feel like I'm fallen.

Why do you feel that way?




One of these lies I'm a make these right with the wrongs I've done. That's

aimed at me. Done every magazine was fame to me. It's a game to me. The bedroom act, sleep ain't never had a fest with that. What's fair when our hearts and our words don't reach? What's fair when the money don't take things back? It's rare rare when somebody take your dreams back. I care too much. When I share too much, in my head too much, I shut down too. I ain't there too much. I'm a complex soul. They lared me up then broke me down. And morality's dust I lack in trust. This time around I trust myself. Please everybody else but myself. All those fells I was myself. Outdone fear, outdone myself. This year you better won yourself. Mask on the babies, mask on the hot wear, mask in the neighborhood. Stars you shot, but a mask won't hide till you are inside. Look around, the reality's carving lies. Wipe my ego, dodge my pride. Look myself in the mirror. Amity filled ain't seen none scarier. I fought like a pure bull terrier. Blood I shed could fill up aquariums.

Tell them my angels carry them. Every emotion been deprived. Even my stone points couldn't survive. If I didn't learn to love myself, forgive myself a 100 times. Don't.


I love when you count me out. I love when you count me out. I love when you count

me. I love when you count me out. I love when you count me out.