Sept. 13, 2023

CD110: Bitcoin Park Party Rip with Harry, Sahil, and Josh

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Citadel Dispatch

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TOPICS: drivechains, sale, barry silbert, fortress trust acquired by ripple, trusted third parties are security holes, steak tips

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(00:01:00) Introduction to the podcast

(00:02:30) Discussion about Nashville maximalism and moving to Nashville

(00:04:47) Debate about drive chains and the risks involved

(00:42:30) The risks of high transaction fees in Bitcoin

(00:43:05) The benefits of using multisig for large balances

(00:45:03) The potential game theory issues with significantly higher fees in certain blocks

(01:18:33) Accelerationist thinking and jurisdictional restrictions

(01:19:41) Interpretations of laws and lobbying

(01:21:19) Governance and change


01:00 - Introduction to the podcast

02:30 - Discussion about Nashville maximalism and moving to Nashville

04:47 - Debate about drive chains and the risks involved

42:30 - The risks of high transaction fees in Bitcoin

43:05 - The benefits of using multisig for large balances

45:03 - The potential game theory issues with significantly higher fees in certain blocks

01:18:33 - Accelerationist thinking and jurisdictional restrictions

01:19:41 - Interpretations of laws and lobbying

01:21:19 - Governance and change


When you're waiting for your transactions to clear Yeah. I've been listening to that song for, like, 2 weeks now.



cheers to that.

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, for another CIL dispatch, the show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

We got a great crew at Bitcoin Park here in Nashville.

There's a

Rust programming workshop going on in the other building right now. We have bit devs coming up tonight,


figured why not

get on the get on the mics and and broadcast out to all the freaks on dispatch.


I'm lucky enough to be joined here by Harry Harry Sudhak.

How's it going, Harry? No bad days. Do you, yeah, do you ever get upset with me when I call you Harry Sudock?


I don't even hear it at this point. It's a I'm I'm an equal opportunity, last name responder.


I apologize for years of mispronouncing

your last name.

We have,

Sahil here. How's it going, Sahil? It's going great. Oh, your mic's not on. It's


going great. Oh, that's so nice.

It's going great. The weather is

very nice right now compared to Austin, but



it's not happening. It's not happening. We're we're good. We're good. The weather is not happening from Sahil himself, and we have beefsteak Josh, the famous away slice. How's it going, Josh? Good. I'm so glad to be here. I love being surrounded by good Bitcoiners, and I love Bitcoiners.


And I love being surrounded by Bitcoiners that I love.

Love and Bitcoin.


Well, that's beautiful.

What are we gonna talk about?


I think we should talk about Nashville maximalism


I'm proud to call this great city home,

and I think we have to talk about Are you gonna announce the news?

Yeah. Move in move to Nashville.

There we go. Well, move is in progress. Mhmm. So who's next? Lease is signed. Moving truck has not yet arrived.


Didn't know that. That's news. Congrats. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Sahil shook. I'm I am shooketh. I am shooketh. It's


As they say, Bitcoin is just the greatest center of economic mass the world has ever seen, and Nashville is the center of that mass.


Congrats congrats to Nashville, but

once there's an once there's a downtown, you know It's not a competition. It's not a competition.


So, I mean, we were talking I I don't know what I wanna talk about. I'm excited for bid devs. We have Jay from bid devs. New York bid devs is gonna be doing our bid devs today with Steve, p, and Matt, which I'm really excited about.


Can I ask you something? Jay

did a amazing,


game at tab.


It was so much fun. Oh, yeah. Who here was at TAB? Are you were you the only one at TAB? I think so. I was just there Friday, Saturday, and it was incredible. It was


You wanna talk more about that? I was kinda just there to party, to be honest. I


Did you get a lot of work done? So much work. So Yeah. I mean, TAB is one of the

the best conferences,

best Bitcoin conferences, and,


I, unfortunately, did not make it this year. I love tab. I good reasons. I feel like as a nontechnical person, it's the hardest one for me to justify going to. No. But it's like bit devs. It's the same thing. You just sit there and just hope you get osmosis. Well, that's the other part of it, I think. And then you drink. On the other side of it, it true. It's probably that makes it the one I should be trying to to go to because I would stand to learn the most. Yeah. I mean, you'll really learn something if some guys on stage telling you there's only 21,000,000 Bitcoin. Yeah. It's true. I don't know. Maybe there's gonna be more than 21,000,000 based on these,


malicious and aggressive minor activated softworks that apparently are all around us.


Great segue.

What are you talking about?


I don't know. I


I occasionally


in my spare time.


And Harry's got a blue check. I do.


It's an issue. Oh, here we go. It's


we we've we've we've agreed to disagree, and and and


the partnership is strong. There we go. I'm with you there, Harry. So, I mean, let's talk about,


I think the the

security budget fee stuff, like, oh, there won't be enough fees to pay minors

and, like, when my my grandsons,

like, a a grown man is a ridiculous premise, and we just hear that every bear market. I don't even think that's we really need to talk about that.

But we have this new element of

eternal September of where, like, the same arguments happen every cycle,

in drive chains. Like, drive to me, drive chains and I'm curious of your opinion. To me, drive chains is just, like, another


of of a similar argument that we've had, you know, ever since

maybe ever since the dawn of Bitcoin, but definitely at the very least ever since the dawn of Ethereum and and, like, new age Bitcoinism.


I think there's a couple of

of components to this discussion that are worth

dissecting or or or or thinking about

more or less objectively, but the piece that just kind of drives me insane


this argument that, like, these fees are happening elsewhere, therefore, they should happen on Bitcoin.

That's just a completely false premise. Right? Like, we're not we're not fighting over a scarce,

you know, fixed amount of fees that all, you

know, cryptographic

coins are fighting over. Like, that's not that's not there's not like a walled garden, and and we're all just fighting to the death for for that usage.

There's different projects that make different trade offs,

and and those trade offs have have arrived at a number of different business models that integrate that technology for better or for worse,

and and the you know, and therefore have earned

the fees that they are currently,


Now does that mean that I think that there are projects that shouldn't, you know, that that shouldn't just take the harder technical path to build on Bitcoin?


Sorry. I hurt myself. That was my fault. I can tell you. They didn't hear that.


So, you know, so there's there's other projects that have utilized these trade off structures to build secondary and ancillary businesses on top that have driven fee revenues

in a different direction.

Those don't necessarily belong on Bitcoin.

You know, I don't know that it I don't know that it makes, you know, Bitcoin as the dominant settlement layer for the world. I don't know that it makes that vision more or less real

for, you know, JPEGs to get traded on Bitcoin or elsewhere. I don't I don't really think it's it's it's germane. I mean, so that's why


that's why I kinda started the conversation with this idea that it's a variation of an argument that we've been having for years


the and and and the argument is is rather simple when you distill it. Right? The argument is,

Bitcoin is awesome.

It should do as many things as possible,

and then, like, Bitcoin is awesome, and we need to protect its censorship resistance

and and

distribution and robustness

at all costs and keep it very focused and as simple as possible so it can accomplish that goal, which is this base of a global financial network, which is an insane goal, and we need to be very focused to do that.

And and there was a deliberate decision by Bitcoin

stakeholders, throughout the years multiple times to keep that vision very focused. And what do you see in shitcoin land as a result?

You see every

and, like, Ethereum comes out and and and it's a certain level of centralized, and it's it's hard to really quantify, like, how centralized different projects are, but it's a certain level of centralized.

So it has, you know, more capabilities. It's it's, quote, unquote, faster. It's it's cheaper.

And then that then all of a sudden, someone goes even more centralized than them and has even more features or has this functionality that's like a salon or a Tron or something like that comes out, and then someone comes out with something like that. And you have this race to the bottom where you lose all that value,

like the core value prop, which is actually censorship resistance.

And and monetary policy. Meanwhile, Bitcoin is just, like, the stoic

protocol in the room

that that is just incredibly focused, and no one thinks, like, Solana is competing with Bitcoin. Right? It's like it's like these are the ETH killers. They're not like a Bitcoin


attack. To that point, Matt, at what point do you draw the line and you just kinda say, I'm gonna mute everything and not

care about it versus

I'm gonna learn about it, learn the details, and push back. Like, I don't know what that

balance is, but for me, I just kinda mute some of the stuff. I think if you're an average Bitcoiner




You're a bit.

No. No. Okay. So, like,

hear me out.


It's your show.


The the the same the same move the same move if you're a Bitcoiner

is to not pay attention to shit all unless it's it's already shipped.

Because there's so much bullshit that just gets proposed, that never has a fucking shot in hell. Everyone will argue for months on end. Nothing ever happens,

and you just end up wasting time in cycles. And the only thing more scarce than Bitcoin is our time, and you just end up wasting all this time on on this shit.

And it's honestly, it's the same with shit coins. It's like, in 2017, there was people that were reading every single white paper, every fucking thing. Time wise, you're better off just completely ignoring it. And if for some reason your theoretical head, like, a Bitcoin killer emerged or whatever,

like, you could pay attention to it later. Now I don't think that would ever happen, but I'm using that as an analogy. And same on the Bitcoin side. Like, on the Bitcoin side,

it's extremely difficult to change Bitcoin by by default.

And that is one of the key value props of Bitcoin. It's one of the key things that protects Bitcoin. Because if it's easy to change Bitcoin, then you can change it with a malicious update.

So we've seen

tons of proposals, and the overwhelming majority never never materialized. You never see anything actually happen.

So I the same approach is just to completely ignore it.

And then to get where I was coming from is, like,

you know, one of the great mysteries of the universe is that I have a massive audience,

And people like, I've been trying to ignore drive chains, for example. I've been trying to ignore drive chains this whole time, and then people start coming up with, like, conspiracy theories. Like, Matt never talked about drive chains on RHR. Like, it means this. It means that. It means all these different things or whatever. And then I feel compelled.

Like, I I feel responsibility

to the audience to, like, actually go and look into like, I spent 3 hours with fucking

the block stack,

stacks white paper that. That's a just so that I could argue against

Stacks usage because it just kept getting publicity that it got to the point where, like, people were like, Matt, like, what is your opinion on this? Like, I need your opinion. But if you're if you're just

a sane Bitcoiner and you didn't put yourself in that position, like, there's no reason for you to even need an opinion on it. Or I think in my opinion, like, it's

it's mostly just Twitter nonsense drama that's kind of buckling over. I don't think it's a real thing that

has any shot of happening.

Harry's looking at me like it's gonna happen.


No. I I don't think it's gonna happen, but I think that that

sort of the you know, this,

this approach is particularly slippery for a couple of different reasons. The first is that,

it takes a,

sort of a a surface level critique of Bitcoin


then drives that wedge really hard. So, you know, if I'd been Bitcoin curious for 2 or 3 years, but, you know, maybe listen to, you know, one rabbit hole recap every couple of quarters.

But now I heard about this huge problem in Bitcoin about the fee future

and that and that there's this critical technical upgrade that needs to happen, you know, I might I might you know, it might it might dissuade me from being Bitcoin curious,

and or moving from Bitcoin curious to Bitcoin excited.

And then the second piece of this is That, like, sucks for that person. Yeah. Of of of course. But, you know, but I think that I think that, you know, the there there's that view on it. The second view is that the method of activation

and sort of the lane that the discourse is taking is one that's really dark, which is which is

minors have a fiduciary obligation to do this.

Right. That's a really, really dark hole to try to go down.

And one that But specifically public miners have a fiduciary responsibility. Correct. And For shareholders. And and so use you know, using

the non Bitcoin native social layer as a wedge in that way,

is a really, really dark and dangerous approach to try to garner,


you know, hostage taking version of consensus. But, I mean, like, it's easy to find peace though because

one should already assume that all publicly traded miners are an attack on Bitcoin. I can't comment


on that,

though you're wrong.

And secondarily,




the approach, you know, the approach of of just this overall sort of hostage taking.


Glad we're all amused. Glad this is fun and great for everyone involved.




I I just I I just I'm I'm not amenable to to sort of the the the quality of the discourse, which is, like, on the one hand hostage taking of key stakeholders who've invested, you know, 1,000,000,000 if not tens of 1,000,000,000 of dollars in mining infrastructure.

Like, those those

stakeholders are not your pawn to activate your software project,

and that's not a reasonable way to try to gather consensus.


Right. I mean but I think part of it is just, like, it's

I I wonder what what kind of support we're actually seeing behind the scenes because,

like you said, like, these miners, they're they're putting, you know,

1,000,000 of dollars of investment into their

the incentives for conservatism, like for, you know, the the incentives

for conservatism,

like, for for lack of change, for moving slowly is is

is most strongly aligned and strongly held, like, in that in those large mining operation circles because they just have so much to lose.

They have so much skin in the game. Like, their mine their ASICs are literally worthless if if if the Bitcoin

big Bitcoin fails. Yeah.

So they they tend to be very risk averse.

But, yeah, I don't know. I think the drive change thing is and if, as far as fees go,

it's just what's really infuriating about the fee argument

is we just fucking ping pong back and forth from fees are too expensive, Bitcoin's gonna fail. Their fees are too low, Bitcoin's gonna fail. And it's like It hasn't failed yet.


I don't expect it. But it's crazy because you're just arguing both sides. It's like and sometimes I have to argue I have to argue 1 it's like The argue the argument is not that. The argument is I don't own enough Bitcoin, and I need to figure out how to get more. And if I can scare people, then I have a chance of getting more.


It's because to Pierre's point, I just I can't I haven't heard of any product or, like, user reason

to act. I I don't see any benefit for me to do this,

so I I can't,

I just don't have any opinion because I don't know what the point even is. Like, why are we Well, I mean, I I my opinion is to default to no change always. Oh, right. Absolutely. I meant, like, from Paul's side. Like, I I can't think of a

a strong use case for me. So What about you, Josh? Are you excited about drive chains? You're gonna run


them? I have to I have to be honest. I would confess that, like,

after Taproot,


didn't necessarily resolve to not be involved in these conversations, but,

like, we were talking about earlier today, like, you just you have a finite of amount of bandwidth.


I have, like, more important things going on in my life, like my kids. And What? The drive chains?


Yeah. And then and then the stakes will not cook themselves. Yeah. Exactly.


And so

I the steaks are my responsibility, not drive chains. But then the downside to that is

what happens with me personally is I default to people who I trust

to tell me their opinions on drive chains, which is, like, what's happening right now

with me listening to you guys.

And that's also what happened with Taproot, where I just kind of, like, I don't

I can't comment on whether or not Taproot is a good idea.

What do these

handful of what does this handful of people say about it? So you're like a second class citizen?

Yeah. I'm an average Bitcoiner.


And a meme was born.

Yeah. We could just end the show there, I think. It's a good rip, guys.

I do agree with Josh, though. I I feel pretty much the same way. Yeah. Okay. So here's the main you want let's break it down, actually, because this would be kinda interesting because me and Harry, I feel like, have

as much as I like to grandstand about saving my time and not paying attention to drive chains, I feel like me and Harry have spent a decent amount of time

looking into drive chains. I can't afford not to. And I feel like the 2 of them haven't. So, like, this could actually be a really cool




Setup where

that'd be helpful to the audience. Right?

So the way I look at drive chains is the key to the whole thing.

There's this idea that we could have

side chains. Right? So you can think of something like liquid,

right, where liquid has a federation around it, and that's a side chain, but that federation is a multisig. Mhmm. Right? You can think of it like a,

like, a massive 3 of 5 multisig. Right?

Now instead of those being just

random federation members, right, like, Bitfinex and Wiz,

and, you know, I don't know, all the different liquid functionaries, but all those federation members. Imagine if they were

mining pools,

and that's what drive chains is for the most part. And so what happens is miners are essentially the custodians.

Right? Just like in liquid,

all the liquid critics will remind you all the time, all the Fediment critics will remind you all the time that, yes, it's federated multisig,

but it's still custodial. It's just collaborative custody. It requires multiple people to rug you together instead of just a single rug. Right?

Same thing with drive chains, but it's mining pools.

And the argument for them that we hear a lot is opt in,

but the problem is is that mining is a very competitive game.

And if some miners are opting in to the shitcoin shenanigans or whatever,

degen, DeFi stuff and revenue that's coming from those side chains,

they're gonna have a competitive advantage over the ones that don't. So you don't really have a choice as a miner. You're kind of compelled from a market perspective

to try and seize that revenue,

and you become a custodian. So you add all these other

potential external risks that we can't necessarily comprehend, but a very simple risk that you definitely add


we already know miners are regulatory targets. We already know they're a little bit vulnerable, and and


they could be a target by

US Financial Services or whatnot. If you add them as a custodian to potential DeFi, Degen stuff,

you're obviously significantly amplifying that, and that's let alone all the potential,


you know, game theory risks or, like, smart contract complexities or whatever. So would would that fuck up only those miners and the people involved in those side chains? No. No. So this is the this is the thing. Is that well, so so order


sort of first derivative, yes. Right. But the second derivative is Like, if if you didn't update Bitcoin Core, like, if I don't update Bitcoin Core, I don't even know the side chains exist.

Right? So from, like, a absolute direct point of view,

it doesn't affect us.

Right? But if a bunch of miners get caught up in it, mining pools get caught up in it, then it can. Right? Well and and and, you know, opting out is is


a choice

until until you start to enter enter the compelled range. So let's just imagine a hypothetical, which is that

SBF launches FTT

3 years ago as a side chain,

and now

he has a ton of stolen money sitting in a side chain.

And now that FTT is going through a bankruptcy proceeding.

Do miners have an option to not

opt in to

dealing with the statute to repatriate those funds,

or are they gonna start compelling pools to behave in a certain way as it relates to the side chain? So you think there could be, like, more regulatory,

capture of these Of course. Because you're you're you're just you're just expand

expanding the surface area of how all this stuff works. Miner The surface area just blew up. Miners currently aren't custodians. Point blank, period. They're not custodians. And and and let me just double click on why that is, technically. I hate that term.

Marty used it on me on our HR this week. Let me just unpack that for you, Matt. What can we unpack that? Unpack is better than double click. Can we double click on that? Let's double click on it. Let's just say let's unpack that for a second. Let's just unpack that for a second. Yeah. The reason that miner the re the way that the mining pool business and the mining

transaction processing

thing works is that miners generate

pool shares.

What that means is that the the pool sends us a template of what would be an acceptable block.

We then go and look out at the difficulty level

for a block that

would be acceptable.

We then send all those shares back to the pool, and then the pool broadcasts that across nodes.

So all we're doing is selling compute.

They give us a piece of paper, we fill it out, they send send it back, they grade the test.

That's the whole exchange of value is that miners

are doing this one action and they're selling their hashes directly to the pool.

What drive chains do is we now have this peg in, peg out vote process,

excuse me,


creates the the minor at the minor level

making a choice about every single drive chain


in real time. So so this is where this is the one thing that I feel like, isn't there some sort of

node activated? Like, if you wanna dispute

that peg in pig out, you can propose a soft fork.

Do you know anything about that?

It sounds like you're saying it's more of at a at a minor list. It's not even like my note. It's it's


Well, so because you because you then start voting with hash rate, basically.


But do you know what I'm talking about? Where there's so this was in the bit mess research piece that I didn't read, but guys one read it to me.

Shout out to Guy. Yeah. Shout out to Guy where they're just basically, like, if there's a dispute on what should happen on the peg out Mhmm. You basically,

node runners vote by

soft forking or not. I you know anything about that?


Alright. Then forget that I said it. Maybe it's not a I I would believe that I I don't know the proposal that deeply, but but, I'm just kind of in awe that this is, like, something that's been worked on for 8 years.

And there's still these sort of very rudimentary misunderstandings

of how the system actually works. Yeah.


And the And I still don't get what the benefit is.


So maybe Well well, that's the other thing. No. The benefit is you get shitcoin

Yeah. Like functionality without the shitcoins.


I think that when


from the standpoint of an average Bitcoiner,

when I was trying to learn about Taproot,

I was hearing things that I was like, oh, that could affect me.

And Really? Like, what were the Taproot benefits? I had no idea. I couldn't tell you. Mostly Transaction aggregation. Most of all the multisig transactions look like regular. Yeah. That Yeah. Most most of Taproot propaganda was just, like, overselling privacy gains. But wasn't it? It was mostly, like, a step improvement that, like, puts us in a good direction. Was there some music thing in there where it was, like like, what you said, like, the



It's a it's it's it wasn't it was a


a soft fork that

can enable many

cool things in the future Yeah.

By doing additional soft works for the most part. It's a staging table. Yeah. Yeah.


So regardless,

I was listening to the whatever those podcasts, and like I was saying, the people that I trust talk about it

in a in a good light. And I was like, alright. Taproot. Okay.

And, and I when I listen

to people talk about drive chains and listen to that

BitMex research piece, I don't hear a thing that affects me. Like, I don't hear a thing that's like, oh, I want that in my Bitcoin.

It feels like a bit little bit of a superfluous

change to an average Bitcoiner.


It almost sounds like you can do certain things, and I not getting super in the weeds because I don't know the weeds, but it sounds like you can do some of these things that

drive chain

supporters wanna do on, like, Fedimint modules, and you can you can do a bunch of cool things. I mean, that's part of the drive chain conspiracy why I have to talk about it because


1031 disclosure is an investor in Fedi, and because 1031 is an investor in Fedi, I'm not talking about drive chains because they have an ulterior motive,

and I don't want a Zcash side chain on and I don't really care about Bitcoin privacy. Like, I got thrown that one at me.

But yeah. Look. Personally, I think I don't think that's necessarily a fair argument.

I think I think

we want as many options available to us.

And and if as long as they as long as they

don't jeopardize the core

value prop and functionality of Bitcoin, like, that that main protocol we have to to be very careful with. And to me, what was interesting about FETI and the Fedimint open source project in the first place was that it required no changes to Bitcoin.

Right? And I think part of the eternal September that we're seeing here is,

you know,

Paul's company, layer 2 Labs, raised a bunch of VC money,

and the whole premise of his company monetizing is a change to Bitcoin,

which is we saw that happen in the past. We saw that happen, you know, before segwit two x and b cash and stuff and a bunch of companies

having issues with their business model and the path of Bitcoin. Their business model conflicted with the path of Bitcoin, and they they they wanted changes to Bitcoin in in order to that happen. And that's just, like, it's just a false premise. Like, it's it's just a premise that I hope that

allocators, you know, like, funds will just realize and not, you know,

not try and fund projects that that require changes to Bitcoin because they probably will not happen, and you should just assume they're not gonna happen. But also, like, I understand that's not the case. And that's part of the reason why, like, I find myself in the venture world in the first place. Right?


you know, talking about it

doesn't actually solve the problem, but doing something about it actually does solve the problem, which is offer people an option where, like, you're not allocating capital in a Bitcoin unfriendly way,

that is actually aligned with with with the future vision of Bitcoin. So I to be honest, like, Sahil, like, I don't think that is a solid argument that we can do it other ways or, like, just use liquid, I heard, as, like, an argument.

You can do it in other ways, but non changing Bitcoin. Yeah. I think this just adds a shit ton of complexity

to Bitcoin. It fucks with the game theory. That's already a loose game theory,

that we have that that protects Bitcoin. I mean, even in 2017,

if you look back,

like, Jihan, who was very pro b cash, who was running Bitmain,

that was running Antpool,

that had indirect control over most of the Chinese miners because of supply chains and also because they all were operating in his shadow.

Like, he could've he could've moved a significant amount of hash rate over to b cash, and we would've been forced into a very shitty situation where we might have had to change

the hashing algorithm, which is is usually considered,

this last case scenario and is mostly a theoretical. Obviously, we've never done it, and you'd have to start fresh with new ASICs.

I person my personal favorite theory is, like, stealing a

a shit coins hashing algorithm in their ASICs, but there's not many proof of work shitcoins left anymore.

But, anyway, I'm just I digress.

I don't know where I was ranting on on that. Kind of a sidebar there, but, like, the memes have not been great. Oh, you know, my point is my point is is is that it's been a loose game theory. Right? And we're fucking with this game theory. We're adding all this complexity for not sure gains because, let's be honest, like, if you wanna do this degen stuff on chain,

like, you can use Ethereum or Tron or Solana or whatever and go do your d gen games over there. Or you can use, you know, I've


And I I I think people are just not appreciating

the the the proponents the proponents of drive chains, I know I'm just being long winded and ranty here, the proponents of drive chains

are not


and and maybe to be fair, I should say the same for a lot of the

advocates against drive chains. But but the main proponents of drive chains are not really

being clear about the risks. They're saying there's no trade offs.

And, usually, when someone says there's no trade offs whatsoever, that's a bad sign. I'm good right now. I'll take I'll take the one on this side. Yeah.

Because I don't know lefts and rights. Thank you.

Oh, your phone is making interference.

But does that make sense? Like,

I don't know. Like, part of what what really bothers me about this argument, about the current debate about it is the main proponents,

particularly Paul, who I've always had a lot of respect for,

refuses to disclose trade offs. Like, when he's arguing for his point, he's there's no risks whatsoever. It's a


risk risk free change. There's no such thing. Yeah. There's no there's there's always a trade off. There's always pros and cons for things. Like, the it's disingenuous.

Like, the and and there's lots of changes that that I might advocate for in the future that that will have pros and cons to them. There's not a zero risk solution,

and that doesn't mean that our current status is the least risky. It just means it's the current one that's under the stress test of the regime that we that we live under today. Yeah.




Like, he even

I should have

I go back and forth. Like, I should have I should just have Paul on. Paul, come to Nashville, and we'll do it in person. He had a in person debate at tab with Peter Todd. It's not posted yet. Right? I I don't yeah. It was, but,

everyone seemed, like, nice in person. And But, like, he says no trade offs, and then he goes,

fuck is this?

Kefas, if you have a Kefas is claiming in the live chat that this is a dishonest drive change narrative. If you have

context or whatever, just put in the live chat that's being broadcast to everyone.

And I'm willing to be wrong. He said there's no trade offs, and then as soon as he had any kind of pushback, he was like, okay. I'm just gonna go to minors directly and just do this the hostile way, which I just


didn't really appreciate that. And it and it doesn't respect the fact that

that minors are thoughtful, and I'm totally talking my book, but mine minors are, like, thoughtful and measured about our view

of changes that introduce tail risk.

Keyfas was agreeing with us. Oh, to the to the project. Right? Like, it like, the what what I and and, you know, I'll I'll I'll get ahead of it, but we're, you know, we're working on a piece to discuss the minor incentive component of drive chains and and proposals that are that are formatted kind of in this way. But


can't be short term thinkers because we take so long to pay off our infrastructure.

We sign such long term

power agreements,

and the machines need to function for 3, 5, 6 years

in order to justify, you know, a really healthy rate of return,

on the investment.

And so, you know, every decision that that at least the miners that I talk to, you know, the the time frame that we're all working under is 3 to 5 years at the shortest,

and really it's 5 to 10 plus.

And so any decision that introduces tail risk over time

is pretty

poorly thought out if you wanna make miners happy. Like, our What decision doesn't though, you know?

I yeah. I mean, look, you know, I I guess if you're a crypto hedge fund trying to trade tokens Yeah. That that's the only business model that can't think in that time scale. Yeah.


Which bums me out. So you guys have any more questions about drive change, Sahil and Josh?


No. I I I still feel like I just haven't had a compelling,

like, why I should care about this aside from


push back. I I just don't have We're not the demographic.


Right. Yeah. It's the peep it's

Like, if Paul was to sit here and be like, this is why you We don't what we don't realize or I feel like people do not appreciate


is there's a new class of

there's a new class of Bitcoiners

that their first experience

with Bitcoin might have been wrapped Bitcoin on Ethereum.

Their their first experience with, quote, unquote, crypto was in the EVM, Ethereum, ecosystem,

Solana, whatnot. I have, like, no experience in that ecosystem.

And that they're they're coming from a whole different perspective. Like, they're not even used to necessarily the UTXO model of Bitcoin. Yeah. They're used to this account based fixed you know? And and when I explained this to Bitcoin, it's just like you're just reusing your address over and over again is how you can kind of think about it. Yeah. But they have these fixed account numbers, and they have, you know, tokens attached to them, and they have

bridges and


and algorithmic stable coins, right, and all this other shit. And they're used to that aspect,

and and that's who they're kind of targeting with this

I agree, Cortic.

He said stick with bit 47. Fuck drive chains.


yeah. I mean, but that's that's who he's he's appealing to, and he's also appealing to a bunch some minors, they're not I won't say a bunch. I personally

do not I I think

that maybe there should be some conversations had,

there should definitely be conversations had if we, for whatever reason, thought a majority of miners might go along with this kind of strategy because it does put us all at risk,

and we have to start talking about, you know, what kind of mitigations can be made. But I personally think it's way premature for that, and I think the majority

of of of hash rate would not go that way.

Like Harry said, I mean, it's it's,

it's a risk adverse industry, which is it's it's ironic because, you know, most people,

especially in, like, the energy world and stuff, might consider, like, Bitcoin mining, like, a risky subsection.

But for the most part, it's long term thinking, risk averse, like, very tight margins trying to, you know, eke out as much profit as they can get.

But there are some of those miners

that were neck deep in



that were that did have, you know, some kind proof of stake component. There's there's some miners that do have proof of stake components that there are,

you know,

validating ETH with their ETH stake, and and they're getting involved in trying to, quote, unquote, put their money to work and, you know, try and and eke out, quote, unquote, yield on that. Right?

And so for those minors,

Paul's narrative is


can be appealing to them. Like, I I I think it is hitting with some of them, and it's and it's important for us to acknowledge that's the case. And don't get me wrong. Look. If there are ways to get transaction fees


on Bitcoin to rise over time,

we have a huge

vested interest in that happening.

But we can't do that at the expense

of the Bitcoin network security model Yeah. And the long term viability of the project. Gotta keep it simple, robust. So, you know, if Bitcoin fees aren't quote, unquote high enough, it means that we need to build businesses that incentivize

settlement finality as a useful value proposition.


No. Mempools are never gonna clear again.


Okay. I've gotten so used to, like, what is it, 12 or whatever it is now? Like 17, 19, some sass per v byte. It's the new normal.

Mhmm. Johnson shambles. See you at 200.

200? SaaS per view bite.


Catan has all these one sapper bites. He's just dying on this hill. Can we say can we just, like now that we're talking about SaaS per view, I just like, what happened with that fee last week?

What like,

like, I know there's probably a big company or an exchange in the whole Well, explain what happened to the Just someone paid a Freaks. $500,000


fee. A 20 Bitcoin fee. Yeah.



there's a cup there's a couple of explanations. One is that it's a fat finger.


Yeah. But, I mean, what what Well, I mean, a good wallet software should Yeah. Should happen. Yeah. So that's one explanation. Isn't the explanation



more power user wallet software than an exchange might use,

actually, like, has you dictate all the outputs, and if you fail to dictate

a change output,

it just all gets put in the fee.


That could be. Sounds nuts. That sounds Yeah. That feels like a huge like a horrible UX design. Yeah. It feels like a huge UX product. Anyway, what's really interesting here is f 2 pool mind dip


and Wang Chun,

came out and that 2 things here with f 2 pool. First of all, it's FPPS.

So it they pay out the average block reward for the last 24 hours to miner. So, technically,

he doesn't have to pay it out to his miners. He just he just has to pay the average block reward, which is slightly higher because of the big fee, but he can keep most of it.

He chose not to do that. He said it will go to his minors, but he's holding it for now, and whoever fucked up can reach out to him

and, get on a knee, and he'll send back the 20 Bitcoin. Yeah. That's pretty cool. But I guess Which has happened in the past. This is not the first time that's the case. Biggest one, right, in US dollar terms?




I mean, it's pretty It's just gonna we're always gonna have the biggest one in US Mon and I said on from Nimpool is, like, this is biggest US dollar fee that's ever been paid. But I I guess my question is

not about when I asked, say, how did it happen? Like,



you know, like, what user interface allowed that to happen? Wait. So what what's actually really cool here, by the way, before we get to that is so we have Backseat Studios saying my bet is money laundering.

And just gonna say. So when people talk about when when people talk about it as money laundering, what it means is

a miner,

let's say f two pool, has 20 Bitcoin,

and they have

significant cap gains that they might have to pay on that.

So they don't broadcast the transaction,

and they mine it themselves,

and they collect it as a transaction fee,

and then they just pay income tax on it rather than cap gains tax on it because it's legitimate income they just got. And this is similar what to to what I believe happened with the EOS ICO,

which where Brock Pierce and a bunch of others, like Dan Larimer. Moved a bunch of their money through the EOS I ICO, which was in a foreign entity,

and then they declared it as income. But, anyway, the reason this is probably not the case

is a really cool feature that I feel like mempool actually got a lot of shit for when they first announced the transaction accelerator,

is mempool has this audit feature of expected block versus,

actual block. And so mempool


confirms that that transaction was actually broadcast publicly to the network. Any miner could have included it. F two pool didn't just hold it themselves.

Now mempool can be complicit in this.

But that starts to get further out, though. Yeah. That gets ridiculous that Wang Chan and Wiz are, like, conspiring

to launder fucking

$500,000 when the guy sends, like, 1 Bitcoin donations with, like,

fucking 1,000 Bitcoin change,

change. Yeah. I mean, the the the guy is fully welled up. Yeah. Exactly. So that was unlikely, but it is something that people should keep in mind. Now, to Josh's question

about the UI, I have no idea. Like, I mean, any wallet I use would never let me do that. Like, Sparrow is just not gonna let you pay 80,000,000 Sats per byte or whatever the fuck the fee was or something. Know that for sure, actually, because I never I never tried doing, like You should try it. A big portion of your You should test it. I'm gonna never do that. We can send it to me. Yeah. I was gonna say, actually, you should send it to me. As a backup? Yeah.

I'll send it back to you. It's good. You'll send twice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I guess it would be a mining fee, so neither of us should get unless Harry might get it.


Thank you. Thank you.


Thank you for your time. No. Sparo will warn you. All the good wallets should warn you that you're paying I mean, their UI should not even let you do it. And this is this is another reason why if you're sending large balances or spending out of large UTXO,




multisig is the way.


Yeah. Yeah. I just I don't know if this is it's weird because

it's a reused address

that pays out constantly in appeal chain.

Someone in the comments is saying the live stream of the stream is frozen. I

that sucks.

Oh, I

did it did it work now? It looks like it's working now. I have no idea. I I see your comment, so we have that going for us. Wait. Hey. Harry, did you say multisig because


there's multiple chances to check


that that was To check the transaction.


No. But my my point is is, like, there's, like, this agreement


the the Twitterati

that it's,

exchange, but it's weird that it hasn't been fingerprinted yet. The known it's, like,

like, I feel like exchange is usually

it's it's weird that we don't know who did it




If it is an exchange. Intern lost his job.


Well, that's what I'm saying. Is it is it just some, like, internal exchange wallet where you can make that sort of mistake and,

you know, or somebody just, like, they thought they were fucking around on test net or something. You know? Like, who knows? I mean, I don't think that was that. That's what happened, but it's just, like, I can just imagine, like, I'm I think I'm doing something cool in, like, command line wallet. Right. I see all my wallet.


Yeah. Oh, shit. There goes 20 Bitcoin. Yeah.


And it's



Such a average Bitcoiner move.


It is super interesting.

Like, you wanna talk about,

adding complexity to Bitcoin,

with drive chains, and I I there's actually kind of a cool overlap we can actually talk about here with this 20 Bitcoin fee.

Now this 20 Bitcoin fee was by accident. Right? Now imagine Bitcoin has all this different functionality on it, and different blocks have

significantly larger fees

associated with them.

That actually starts to cause some game theory issues,

in terms of reliability of the network for everyone else, because miners are incentivized to play games to try and get that one block. If one block is,

you know, worth 20 x or 50 x or a 100 x more than the next 10 blocks or 20 blocks, then you there there's there's value to an attempt to try and reorg

back to that block and take those fees for yourself.

And so

one of the beauties of this of of Bitcoin being as simple as possible

is this idea of, okay, as demand goes up, so should fee pressure, and so should the purchasing power of those fees, even if they stay relatively static in Sats, which I don't think they will. I actually think in in Sats terms, they go up as well. But also in in sheer purchasing power, they go up. But you keep it if you keep it relatively simple,

that should be a relatively predictable fee revenue where every block,

you know, there'll be there'll be discrepancies.

But for every block, you would you would have a a relatively predictable amount of fee revenue and that there wouldn't be big adjustments between the differences.

And even something as simple as ordinals

and inscriptions,

we've seen that already happen where

there's, like, some large in inscription sale where you have to get into a certain block, and that one block will have way more fees than the other ones. There was a,

orphan situation where people were speculating. Was it a reorg or not? And there's no way for us to know for sure

which way it was. I had BitMex research on

dispatch, and,

we we discussed that,

But we already had that happen with just, like, a NFT

sale. And you start adding all these crazy DeFi stuff on it, and then all of a sudden, there can be certain blocks that have significant more fees. But in that world, could you just wait more confirmations, like, wait Yeah. Yeah. You can always just wait. 20 You can always just wait. 6. That's always your prerogative. It's always better to wait. Wait. And and the other the other argument for patience in all of this is just that we've seen how little


on chain activity and demand for block space

drives fees, like the asymmetry between those two dynamics.

Modest and nominal

adoption of Bitcoin as a settlement tool

will drive fees higher for longer

in a in a in a sustainable and and potentially violent way.


Peacefully violent.


Yeah. Volatile

Yeah. To the upside.

There's a block space liquidity credit. Kindly.


Mempools will never clear again.

I support it.


What time does BitDev start?

I think we're 5. Right? No. I don't 6. No. No. No. He puts 5 on the meetup page, but it's not when it start. That's, like, come here, have beers, have pizza, chill.

We need to, by the way, move away from pizza.


Pizza. Pizza

is a shitcoin. Yeah. See see, Matt, we Big circular shitcoin. We own we only do Ziki in Austin. Yeah. I'm aware.

Maybe we'll do shawarma.

Maybe we'll do bit dev shawarma.


You guys have us back beat on on VC backed startups.

I helped launch a whole venture fund to try and change that trend.


Zeke, it'd be great to have Zeke here. I I it's been pretty cool. I'm watching the trend

of all these, like,

health food specialty startup companies are finally, like, respecting seed oils. There's, like, all these healthy foods Disrespecting.

Like no. No. No. No. That are starting to respect it. Like, orig like, there was all these, like, quote, unquote, like, healthy foods and whole foods or whatever that had seed oils, and now there's a whole breed that are starting to realize, like, oh, use avocado oil, use coconut oil, or whatever.


Love have you had those 356 pork rinds?


No. Oh, they're fire. Okay, guys. We got we got derailed here. But, anyway, we should I'm here for the For BitDevs BitDevs, we have pizza, which we're gonna

you know, we should we should fix that. We're just trying to be sustainable. Bitrefill pays for it. You know, huge thanks to them for paying for the pizza.

And I've already won one battle. We've upgraded from Domino's, which is not really pizza,

so that was a win. But for our open house, we don't do that. And for our summits,

we have very high quality food here.

But I wanted to talk about,



hole in their balance sheet, back end for a bunch of,

different Bitcoin and crypto companies,

and then Ripple bailed them out. We found the news that that Ripple bailed them out. Do you guys have any opinions on this? Do you think that's gonna close?

I mean, Ripple's doing their due diligence right now, and they could pull out of the deal. Oh, they could? Oh, I thought it was all said and done.

No. Imagine imagine running your business to the point where, like, Ripples, the adult in the room coming in and doing due diligence and bailing you out.


I can Imagine being in that position. I can literally not imagine that.

Also, look and and this is really worth saying,

the custody business

is so straightforward

and clear


if you screw it up,

it is it is beyond egregious.

You take the thing, you sit on the thing,

and you don't lose it, and you get paid to not lose it.


That's the whole business model, and you get paid a fee to not lose the thing that you're told to not lose. It's like it's like losing money in the safety deposit box business. You know what the trend is? The trend is is the suits are here, and they're here to lose your Bitcoin.


Like, the suits like, this whole cycle has just been suits fucking losing Bitcoin.


Yeah. I guess I don't

the fortress thing is obviously pretty sticky with all the swan stuff and

all that. I mean What do you mean?


Give us the average Bitcoiners take on


corporate m and a. Is the official beef take opinion? I'm no expert. I'm no expert, but

it sounds

like Swan is in a little bit of a pickle. Right? Because they use fortress. They're in a little bit of a ripple. Yeah. They're in a little bit of a ripple pickle or a pickle ripple.

You can take your choice there. But

but then the question is, like, it all feels a little bit noisy to me. It's just, like, just hold your own Bitcoin, and then, like, we don't have to have this conversation. Isn't that the point of this podcast anyways? Yeah. But what do you think about the excuse?


What do you think about this? Why are we here? You're you're correct. You're correct, Josh. That is the point of this podcast.

Neither Keys, neither coin. Learn how to self custody Bitcoin is easier than you think. I I have a I have an incredibly based Bitcoiner friend whose tagline is,


and I'm not gonna dox him here, but keep your coins off exchanges and your name out of databases.

That's good. That's good. Right?


But I think it should be broadened

from just exchanges because I think while the Satoshi is a perfect example of a nonexchange

custodian that's becoming an issue. But, anyway, Josh,

I'm curious on your opinion. Like,

one of the arguments we hear is is

so Swan used Prime Trust as a back end and

who had a hole in their balance sheet and lied about it. And then they moved to Fortress, which was founded by the same

guy as Prime Trust, and they had a hole in the balance sheet, and then Ripple came in to take it over.

Or, potentially, they're doing due diligence.

Ripple's doing due diligence.

Swan's argument is

that they

cons and they do. They're right. They constantly tell people to self custody Bitcoin.

Does that absolve you of

custodial issues if you

advocate for people to

self custody Bitcoin, like, does that

absolve you of

making potentially reckless decisions with customer funds?


I mean,


the the

obviously the answer is no. No.

But the question then is like,


You know.


You try to run a company. It's like, how hard would it for how hard would it be for them to be the custodian? You know, I imagine it's just like.


Jurisdictional process. But, I mean, Cash App does it, Stripe does it, River does it? Yo. Yeah. Yeah. No no question. There's already a ton of companies that use it. Coinbase does it. Kraken does it. It Binance does it.


Bitfinex does it. Allegedly.


Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes to all of those.

But but you're a Bitcoiner, so you should do it.

I guess

I know it all goes back to that. But That is a fair point though, Matt, because I was gonna be like, oh, yeah. There's an interesting debate going on of, like because it is a fair point of building a business from scratch the hard way. There's merit to that, obviously. There's also the challenge of building a business, and there's, like, real challenges there. I'm not saying that's, you should take the shortcut, but




It it's it's tough. I'm gonna go the other way. I think that

I think they're pretty well absolved,

actually. What do you mean? I I think we we to me, it it comes down to the business model. Like,

the the reason that those other exchanges do it themselves is because


generate revenue

on multiple turns of the same capital

because they're they're trading houses.

Right? They're not they're not a they're not an they're not a traditional, you know, ATM style brokerage.

Right? So

I view, you know, I view Swan really as like an ATM window

where you show up, you hand them your dollars, you get the Bitcoin, and then Well, you don't get it right away.


Within a very reasonable amount of time. Isn't it, like, a month or something?


It shows up in your account. My understanding Are you the only Swan user here? It shows. I I used to use Josh is like my friend told me. No. No. No. It Average Bitcoiner. Was a Average Bitcoiner things. Yeah.

I was a Swan user. I'm pretty sure the way that it works is it show like, when you buy it, it shows up in your account, but there's, like, a time between when it shows up and when you can withdraw. And what is that time? It's like a month. Right? I don't know. I have no A month a month is a red flag for me. I think for River, it's something like that unless you wire. Because wires are more like Less charge back. It's the the it's the fiat is the issue, and it's the fiat side. Yeah. And and to be fair Everyone's making a fraud calculation. Cash app rate limits the shit out of you on the cross. Yeah. It's a fraud calculation. So, you know, so I think, like, if the nature of the service


for me is that you're not you know, what they're not trying to do is say, not only do I wanna sell you Bitcoin, but I wanna keep your Bitcoin on our books for as long as possible to facilitate as many trades as possible.

What River is doing is they're saying, we are offering a Bitcoin a virtual Bitcoin ATM.

You give us dollars, we give you Bitcoin. Swan. I'm sorry. Swan.

You know, so I think that that because that's the nature of their service, making the decision

to not invest

100 of 1,000,000 of dollars in their security program,

the same way that a Kraken does or Coinbase does, it is a function of the difference between the business models. Yeah. I think that's a good point.


I well, what about the I like it. What about, like, strike?


I think that

I think that strike


What are strikes incentives? I guess So, like, the way I look at it is, like Uh-huh. I'm sorry.




So with strike It's not good audio. Strike, Swan,


and River launched around the same time. Right?

And so River,

did things the truly hard way, and they tried. They built out everything vertical, their own stack.

They did MTLs, money transfer licenses in every state that they had to get 1 by 1. It was like really hard. It's like River supports 3 states. River supports 4 states. Oh, River supports Connecticut. It's like no one gives a shit about Connecticut. Rivers and, like, they now they're at, like,

29 states or something like that.

And then Strike and Swan used Prime Trust because Prime Trust had a bunch of MTLs, and they could hit almost every state all at once. With a single license. And then

Swan was cool with that and chilled.

And then in the background, strike was adding MTLs the whole fucking time. And then when


Prime Trust rugged. No. But before Prime Trust rugged,

Strike and Swan moved off of Prime Trust. Swan moved to Fortress,

and then Strike was ready with all their MTLs

to do everything in house and now supports more states. I think there are 49 states.


I wonder what the last one is. It's it's definitely New York. Yeah.


They support, like, 65 countries, not New York.



I actually took issue, by the way, at Bitcoin 2023 when he put up the world map of where they serviced. They should have blacked out New York, and they didn't.


It wasn't blacked out? No. It was I would have been pro blackout if I had you they had they should have done that. New York is, like, the North Korea of it's so bad. Bitcoin brokerage access.

But yeah. Look. And I wanna be careful here because I do

like, there's a bunch of people at Swan that are my friends.

People think, like, the,

like, investments and all this stuff is the the biggest conflict of interest

when you have, like, any kind of platform in the Bitcoin space. The biggest conflict of interest is is, like, friends and, like, talking about friends on air when they're, like, not here.

But, like, my biggest issue is this idea

that seems to be in Swan land that

Swan land.

Among the Swan team that, like, that is a

that is that is something that you should be proud of, that you don't control the full infrastructure stack because

that's how TradFi works. And they're correct. That is how TradFi works, but, like, that is not how Bitcoin works.

And with Bitcoin, trusted third parties are security holes, and every individual shouldn't trust any third parties or trust as the they should minimize their trust in third parties as much as possible. And the same thing goes with companies. Like, if your company's fate

is on someone else's lap, if someone else can rug your customers,

that's a horrible fucking position to be in because there's no bailouts in Bitcoin.

I mean, like, Ripple might come in and buy Unless you overpay a fee of $500,000.


But they're gonna be like, yeah,


If you're tuned in. It's a small world. Like, the people that accidentally pay 20 Bitcoin fees is a small world. Like, Wing Chun's probably gonna have dinner with him the other yeah.

Alright. Sorry to interrupt you there. But you know what I mean? Like, that it's it's it's a my

it it's it's it's

the aspect of gaslighting

this idea that vertical integration

should be the goal for these companies. So it's like, if you're a company that's focused on freedom and privacy and sovereignty for your users,

like, you should be you should be you should be moving no. But you should also be moving to a world where you have as much freedom and sovereignty

and power as possible because, otherwise, it's trusted third parties all the way down. It's, like,

on top of each other all multiplying against each other.


It's a compounded risk.


Yeah. I wonder if there is an another

if there's, like,


I mean, someone other than yourself can rug users. Yeah.

Like, the sovereign individual way is, like, the only person that should be able to regular users is yourself.


There are no you. And, like, is that, like, far? Users, there's only you.


Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I I guess I'm with you. Compounded risk blah blah blah. But Blah blah

blah buying me? But no. I I The average Bitcoiner speaks. I was blah blah actually, for the record, I was blah blah blah ing Harry. But, yeah, well well deserved. Well deserved. But, me.

They're all all those companies are trusted third parties. You know what I mean? But they're adding trusted 3rd parties on top of it. And I agree. And I think it's probably the risk is exponential. It's not linear. And it's like Yeah. That's what it's like multiplied. Yeah. I'm not a math guy. And and it's fucking hard to build businesses. Yeah. Yeah. That's true.


And and, you know,

Especially businesses that that make money.


So I was Yeah. So yeah. True. But but I don't know. I'm I'm I'm just like,

I don't know. I'm I'm I've got I've got more sympathy for, like, people trying hard to do things and make these services available,

And, like,

it's really fucking hard, and you need a huge security budget, and you need a huge development budget

for something that

doesn't particularly add incremental revenue in the next 6 to 12 months. Well, look, I I


it's more than that. Right? Because

running a specifically running a, like, regulated

fiat to Bitcoin, Bitcoin to fiat company

is, like it's so much more than, like, the technical overhead. It's the total regulatory

bullshit, blah blah blah. But, like so don't don't get in that business.

Like, that

if if your argument is that you wanna avoid that, which is not the argument I've heard from swan guys Then you make no money. But but my point is is, like,

I've had plenty of opportunity to run a business like that, and I would rather die. Like, that is just not a place, like, I would be. Like, we're, like, you're asking the SCC permission. You're, like, asking all these different agencies permission. Like, it's just a horrible fucking place to be where you're just asking permission left and right.

But I if you're going to do that,

I don't think the argument should be like, oh, well, like, I'm just gonna outsource that

hell to someone else. Like, that's just then then not only are you at the liberty of all those regulators and shit, you're also at the liberty of the person you outsourced it to. Like, we saw at the end of Prime Trust, they were losing state by state because they were,

I mean, insolvent. We found out after the fact that they were insolvent.


But but to use your sovereign individual


they're you know, if they're if they're offering an inferior product to their competitor,

isn't it the bur isn't the burden on the individual to choose a better service than than on them to Free market. Yeah.


But I don't I don't love the do your own research

argument because it's, like,

no one does their fucking research.

You know, like


No. We I agree. No one does. No. You're not. You're just fucking Yeah. D y o r is, like, that's what cop out. And usually scammers use it as, like, a cop out. That was the best guess. They rug pull you. They kinda, like, do your own research. It'd be like


Like, buy my token, d y o r. Yeah. Prime Trust goes under, and they're like, oh, it was all in the papers. You knew it was in Prime Trust. Like, why did you use Swan? Well, like, you know, like, I think people just it should be painfully obvious to people that are using Swan that

if you're leaving it on Swan, your Bitcoin is sitting at Fortress, not at Swan.


But if something goes wrong Technically, it's sitting at Bitco. Oh, yeah. Through Fortress, but I'm pretty sure Fortress or BitGo can rug.

That's what really what it comes down to. It's like, who can rug?




Yeah. Sorry to, well, actually, you, but I knew the No. I I I knew it was gonna happen in the comments, so I did it on auto you weren't wearing glasses. You coulda, like, push them up when you did it. We can do that. Yeah. Thanks.


Yeah. But you know what I'm saying. It's just, like,

hold take your take your own Bitcoin. Take control of your Bitcoin, people. Like, just

it's your responsibility.

It's your risk. Don't you can't criticize other people for how they handle your risk. Like, in the end, if shit goes wrong Yeah. But then you just sound like the guy from



What was his name? Carlos.

No. No. No. The other guy,


I've always wanted to sound like the other guy. Guy who was in the car who was like, you kinda lost your own money or whatever.


That guy. That was a take?

Yeah. Do do you know who I'm talking about? I have no idea. Is this, like The BitConnect guy?

I gotta do something. Don't forget his name. Comments, do we have it?


There's t something. Yeah. The guy who, like, he, like, looked he, like, rugged everybody. He was, like, one of the major big connect promoters, and then he was like, well, actually, like, you kinda lost your own money because you should've done your own research.

Trey, what was his name?

Trey Von Shavers.

Shout out to Windsock in the Twitch comments. How has how long has Fortress been around?


Not long.

Yeah. Because because it was


I can't I cannot quantify that for you. How do you get all the MTLs so quickly?


Probably bought them. Broad probably brought an bought an entity that already had them.


I don't know that. Trying to do that.

They just did it. Now, it's in due diligence.


Sorry. It's not approved yet. They're still Ending. Yeah.


Well, actually, we're between blocks.


You yeah.


I don't know. It's a long bear market.


Sort of like a long time down here.


I mean, we were talking about, like, we have grassroots Bitcoin tomorrow. It's gonna be

it was a pretty long year to me. It's our 2nd grassroots Bitcoin here. Meetup organizers from around the country.


Trevon James.


No. It's Trevon Shavers. Right? James? James. Yeah. Trevon James. We have Vivek on, the casting couch over here

giving us the the lowdown.

That was the guy who blamed people for losing their money on BitConnect.


But the, you know, the the

the incentives in the bear market are only higher to just go spend time with other Bitcoiners and pass the time


Will we wait to win?


I will say

quitting Twitter

and going to Noster

has been a breath of fresh air in this bear market. Like, every time I, like, open

x to see, like, what the fuck is going on over there, like, y'all are just arguing about all this useless shit. And, like, on Nas, we're just saying, like, good morning to each other. But, man, you gotta get on the muting game. Have you seen I don't mute or block. That's why the beauty of noster you know, you can't block on noster. But you can mute. Like, noster is a protocol that was, like

there was a name. Like, it it it could've been called the Odell protocol. It's like the ideal

the ideal social media protocol,

for me, in my opinion.

No blocks, can't get rug, you can mute.




we have Ty sitting next to Vivek on the casting couch yelling at us. Block if the client supports it. Yeah. On on Noster clients, there's a block button, but what it does is effectively mute in terms of Twitter. So anyone can still reply to you,

which is key. It's important that you can ratio people at will whenever you want. And you and if you search the note from another

relay, you you'd see it. Well, no. It's on the client side. So, like, the user can do their own moderation where they don't see things, but they can't actually stop someone from interacting with their posts. Yeah. So if I wanted to block someone on Primal, I need to join Primal to block them?

Vivek had a very convoluted question.

You no. No. It's it's on a user level. So, like, on your user level, you can open up primal or domus or something. And sometimes they'll call it the block button. It'll it'll say block because they want app store

requirements for having block functionality. But in in effect, your local client is literally just blocking that person

from being able to see it. Like, even if Ty is using the same exact client as you, he can still ratio you and reply. You just won't see it.

I I don't know of any clients that are, like,

doing internal client


blocking. Like, you user user to user


bidirectional blocking. Yeah. I think for me, the key is just muting words. It's like, I don't wanna see anything to do with this, and then Twitter is great. It's like, I don't have to see anything Ethereum related or You know, I I agree with what you said about Gnoster. I think probably, like, looping it back to what we were talking about earlier and just my overall ignorance of drive chains, I think probably

stems partly from me spending more time on Nostra. And I think that, like, the talk around Taproot was a little bit more positive.

The talk most of the talk around drive chains is pretty negative.

There's not a lot What on Nasner?

Well, I think on on Twitter, and I think that there's not a lot of I don't see a ton of talk about drive chains on NOSDER,


which obviously could be a function of who I'm following and I just think that oh, yeah. Well, definitely depends more on who you're following Yeah. Because the algorithms are relatively new still, so the discovery is not great.

But I just think there's less

trivial conversation happening on Noster.

There's so much more noise on Twitter, and, like, the Twitter algorithm

promotes the noise. But there's also vitriol around


drive chains, and that brings it to the forefront of the conversation on Twitter, where it's just not there on on Noister.

I mean, people just hate each other about drive chains right now. But you just have like, incentives


do matter. Right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Incentives do matter. And,

you know, for years, my Twitter cope was that, like, it was the best we had.

But the the incentives of Twitter, like like, it's there's a reason Nuance became a meme on dispatch and rabbit hole recap. It's because Twitter has none. Because the incentives are designed

to be as provocative as possible.

And they've amplified that even more so because now the flu checks get paid, the more provocative their takes are.

So it's it's it's

one of the things that Bitcoin taught me as a young man was that, like, incentives are absolutely everything. And and you find the incentives, and you'll find how how humans interact with them. And you just don't have that incentive on Master. And maybe we will at some point with certain algorithms,

but the the cool part about nostr is users will always have a choice of of if if they wanna use an algorithm, which algorithm they wanna use, or they could always just not use one. Yeah.

So you'll never have, like, this full standard. And it's it's interesting

just, like, as a concept when, like, you're

you're posting on something like Nostr,

where, like,

I guess, probably,

most users in the future of Nostr will just never even consider this, but I definitely consider it when I post, is that it's v it the way it looks even at, like, the basic level, the way it looks is different depending on whose client it is. It's not like everyone

that I communicate with on Nasr is viewing the same thing as me. They're they're viewing the same base information, but they're viewing it in a whole different way.

I don't know. It's interesting. The client competitions definitely

changes it up a bit.


I think they're gonna be huge subscription businesses

built on


Nostra client development. Yeah. I I think

I think there's gonna I think Nostra is gonna be the most chaotic of everything, to be clear.

It's just gonna be a like, if you use Noster without any kind of filters or anything, it's just gonna be this massive fucking noise hose that like, goes straight into your brain, just fucking destroys you and fries everything.

Because it's because because it's it's it's censorship resistant. Right? Because Yeah. It's unbounded. Right. But

right now, we're in this, like, nice little peaceful


adoption part of Noster, and I'm just appreciating it, I guess. I was talking to Ty about this about, like, primal and things like that. I really want

I want the algorithm on my side, on the client side. Yeah.


Because I for me, the chronological feed doesn't work as well. You're not a chronological guy. No. I I want them. I want the Yeah. You know, I'm not gonna live in the pod, but I want the algorithm. You might live in a pod. You're, like, one of my one of my few friends that might like, you might send me, like, a picture, like, look how dope this pod is. Well Self driving pod. Look. We can't we can't fix Austin for him. Yeah. I mean, the pod's nice, though. Have you seen the pod? Pods are nice.

Yeah. Awesome. Sahil's,

Sahil's the self driving car influencer. He, like,

he rides self driving taxis all throughout Austin,

with no human in the front seat. I'm very bullish on self driving cars. Because Sahil Sahil trusts a computer behind a wheel more than himself.

Come on guys. Go off on.


Yes. Some of these guys are are anti,


anti cruise. Oh, are you an EAC?


You know, I I I Wait. Can we go into that? What is that? I'm BIAC. What is EAC? Accelerationism


effective? Accelerate? Yeah. It's effective accelerationists

Okay. Who basically believe that an unbounded,



limitation minimized

technology development cycle

will produce the most human prosperity.

Oh, I I think I agree with that. It's a very reasonable perspective, but it but it's,

you maybe you agree with that. So,

you know, let let's let's take a few examples to their terminal conclusions. Okay.

One is

self driving cars. Yeah. Right? Like, the the idea that human beings are gonna operate a motor vehicle

is, like, totally asinine.

Right? We should we should just we

like, driving is geometry.

That's it.

Right? Like, you just need a smart enough computer to be able to take the inputs and deliver the outputs and move the thing. There there's no need

for a human to operate a motor vehicle. It's gonna go the way of horseback riding. It's gonna be a luxury sport. And by the way, this works today. So we're gonna have self driving horses too?

Separate separate question.

So so that's, like disagree with that one. That's one version of it. Okay. Okay? The second is

all of your

financial wealth should be managed by an AI because

I you know, because, obviously, the computer understands Wait. But are are you you and so are you


I don't even know what gaslighting means. Are you gaslighting a

the argument? Yeah. Strommen I'm strong I'm strong man I'm strong manning the argument that I think the self driving argument But, no, but wouldn't the argument be I'm and keep in mind, I just asked you what it meant.

But wouldn't the argument be from an acceleration point of view


point of view, like, old school accelerationist, not e a c c or whatever the new Yeah. Clutchers.

Wouldn't they say, like,

it's not that AI is better for you at managing your money, but, like, if we unleash

all this tech to do whatever people want to do with it,

it'll be better for society as a whole. So, like, I would personally never trust

fucking computer to to drive my family around or

I look Sahil in the eyes as I say that. Or, like, manage my money. That's what you say today. But but if regulations don't stop that from happening, we'd probably be in a better place.


Yeah. So to to me, like, the the most

the most sort of,

an archolibertarian

view of this that that is probably something I'm relatively sympathetic to is that

all of this is actually just downstream

of regulatory distortion across all of the market structures that govern our lives. And so we're already in such a deeply, regulatory,

distorted environment

that our ability to see truth is so difficult

that we're forced into these binary perspectives like deceleration and acceleration.

And that if we'd actually allowed a market to function for the last 50 to 70 years,

that conversation and that distinction would be much less meaningful.

And so when I hear the word accelerationist,

really what I hear is deregulatory.

Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean by it, I guess. Now now there's the there but I think that what's been co opted in in this piece of the the, you know, corner of the Internet that that we all fear to go is, like,

this is like a bunch of AI singularity nerds

kinda arguing with each other, and half of them believe that AI is here to save us, and half of them believe that AI is here to kill us. And they're both just rooting for their for their digital titan.

And that's, like, kind of where I think, like, the weakest version of this conversation has gone, but but I think the strongest version is, like, we all live under this, like, horrific amount of of regulatory capture.

Let's pull that weight off of our vest

and see where we are.

Mhmm. No. I don't know where BIAC fits with that. So so this is the most exciting part, which is that Bitcoin is

like many other things, but because because what Bitcoin does is it creates sort of like a self referential

limiting variable in all these

systems because you can't just print your way through it.

So I think the EAC folks are, like, also kind of, like,


print all the fiat, spend all the fiat as possible. Well, that's the accelerationist thing. It's, like, let's just rip this ban like, let's just


hyperinflate already. Are there any, like, jurisdictional,


haven? We are all Internet citizens now. No. But I'm saying is there, like, if I, like when you're talking about jurisdictional


I assume you're just like in America in particular,

that's an issue. Like, is there a country where they're, like, just move here and design and develop whatever you want to, and we'll support you

and create a space for that. Like, are there countries that are are trying to be at the vanguard of Yeah. I I think there are. I think the issue is that, like,


America obfuscates

those dynamics by having so much economic power. Yeah. And so we have enough economic power to mask

the value in differentials between regulatory environments.


Yeah. And it like you said, it does

obfuscate truth. Like, we just have no idea what the fuck's going on. It's like we all think

Airbnb rules are rolling in, and it's just like hotel lobbies.

Exactly. Trying to, like, control


where people sleep when they move, come to towns. Totally. There you know, like, there's a there's a whole fight happening right now around


of the,

inflation reduction act

and how that affects, like, different use cases of electricity

as it relates to the subsidy for

for hydrogen production. Like and it's just like 2 different lobbying groups fighting against each other Yeah. And, like, bubbling up in ways that's gonna affect America for 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars. Yeah. I actually when we talk about lobbying, I kind of think I I think that some there's something about, like,


pushing through bips that relates to lobbying where there's a lot of, like, lobbying that happens in America


and going back to being an average Bitcoiner. Do you get it? You need I know we don't We make average Bitcoin on the T shirts. There's too many Bitcoin podcasts, but also, like, you need to just be the average Bitcoin. The average Bitcoin. Wait, Josh. Can we can we host that podcast for you at Bitcoin Park and make this a Bitcoin Park production? Yeah. Let's do it.


So yeah. Yeah. He's gonna move his whole family here. So so here's but here's the thing. Like, when you're, like, when you're talking about laws,

like, all these laws are being passed by lobbyists. Like, think about Monsanto and seeds and how they plant corn. No. Fuck Monsanto. No. But my point is that, like, when you're pushing through when when a big company is pushing through a regulation,

if there's no organized resistance, it just goes through.

And there's no organized resistance against Monsanto. You know, like, if Monsanto wants to push something through, there's no, like,

like, financially


like, group of farmers. It's like, actually, if this

seed bill passes, we're all fucked.

That's just there's no opposition. It just goes through. Well, I mean, I I think I think,


American governance

operates on a similar principle as Bitcoin governance in terms of

trying to make

change as difficult as possible.

It's just not as effective at doing that.

Right? But, like, a lot of times, like, pea I think a lot of times people

have issues with, like, how slow governments move, And I think,

actually, that is mostly a feature, not a bug. Like, it'd be better if governments, by default, moves even slower than they currently move. Yeah.

Because no change is better than change for something as important as,

Law. Like, the the the guys walking around with the guns at your head.


Yes. And

I think

what it it it makes sort of the Bitcoin proposal and development process so interesting because, like,

the the systems that have thrived the most are the ones that are set up on the best foundation

and have the lowest propensity for change.

Like, the combination of strong foundation

plus low propensity for change

ends up being,


like, the most highly successful. Hate to interrupt. Josh, you know where the bathroom is?

I just wanna be clear here. Sahil is just sitting down right now. Sahil quietly walked out of the studio

and then proceeded to text me on signal asking, where's the bathroom? I'm dying.

Let's just can we just be clear about this? Don't drink in pod, kids. Matt, I swear to god.


I swear group chat saw how it was about to come out there. I didn't go to the bathroom.


Did you find the bathroom? Yeah. I did. We have, Vivek,

formerly Blockstream, now CoinKite,

stepping in for Josh, and, he just sat at the table.


Above average, Bitcoiner?


Above average. Yeah. Oh, you can see, I You have something to add. Put it at about 90 IQ. You're you're not as tall as Josh. You can lower the mic a little bit. Set up. But,


I I wanted to go back to the accelerationist


we're talking about. I think

earlier in the early 19 100, like, you know, the Wright Brothers, things like that, I do guys. Exactly. I think, think of it in that sense where,

it is the regulatory burden to just innovate and,

rapidly deliver something to the market.

However, you can also argue the COVID vaccines was an example of that.


Of of rapid development. That's what I'm saying. Like, usually

well, that was the the the difference there is that was that was a government enforced monopoly

and forced subscription model


in that situation. Right? It it wasn't just the free market

not being touched by regulators.


It was the it was the opposite of that. Right? It was the regulators a little bit of both. Reverse. It was a little bit of both. They had the emergency use authorization, I guess, that bypassed FDA. It's a derag. Yeah. Yeah. But with that said, Matt's absolutely right that all the taxpayer money went to Pfizer. So we got deragged and then reregged.


Well, it's more like a

special exception. It wasn't Ty, no one can hear what you're saying.

So if you wanna walk and, like, use a mic so, like, people know what you're fucking saying. Yeah. It wasn't


it wasn't Dreg. It was a special exception

to select companies

to develop this vaccine. It's not like you, Harry, can go and develop a vaccine and be like, hey. Here it is. Right? While we're talking about this, this was kind of a topic on Ravelry recap this week.


Utility companies are not private companies. Oh, god. Like, utility companies are like this perverse,

horrible, like, government enforced monopoly bullshit. Monopolies as they call it.


But they're not natural, are they? They're not. I mean, you don't want, like, 10 utilities in one place. Right? Why not?


You should be able to compete for it. The problem is the problem is is the right of ways.

The big problem is the right of ways because if you need to cross, like, a train track, it's a road road. Domain. It's an eminent domain implementation

problem. Like, it's you can't just run gas lines everywhere or electric lines everywhere.


Nor do you want


to. Yeah. They're not private companies.


This is a very complicated topic.


I think in general, like, if we could have

I I I think governance should be as slow as fucking possible.

Change should be as hard as possible. It should be as minimal as possible. This is something Texas gets really, really right.


I did a little Texas dunking, so now we're gonna do some big ups Texas, which is that the way their state legislature functions is that they have these huge gaps in between sessions.

So so Texas

state house has a much slower block time

than normal governments.

And it's this feature that they've introduced, which is, like, they have, like, 18 months in between sessions,

and it's this incredibly powerful mechanism

by which they're able to get a huge amount of public feedback and a and a huge number of public hearings on any proposed new law.

And so

you miss the window, see you in 18 months. Go go argue. But how long is their terms?


2 years, maybe. So they have, like, one session? Yeah.


So, wait, is Tennessee the Ethereum and Texas' Bitcoin?


No. Texas wouldn't exist without Tennessee. Tennessee Tennessee is like the like, BitTorrent


or I don't like any of these metaphors. Look. Look. Texas is great. Texas is awesome. Texas I'm not gonna, you know,

we have a good healthy coopetition. But you guys, you know, you should clean up your house before you start, you know We love Nashville. Dish and dirt.


I don't know where we went today, but it was weird. I liked it.



I mean, we still have a plenty of time before bit devs.

We we have people in the live chat on, sill dispatch dotcom/stream.

That's the Nostrilive chat.

That's the best live chat.

So thank you guys for joining us there. And then we have people in the YouTube and the Twitch comments.

You'll still be able to view via YouTube and Twitch, but in a few episodes, I'm gonna make it so the only way you can comment live on the show is through that nostril livestream. So just keep that in mind. But why do I bring this up? I bring that up because if you guys have things that you want us to talk about, feel free to put them in the comments.

Can I can I ask a non to continue? I mean, we have like, Ty and Vivek walked in.

If somebody wants to come share this with me, you're welcome. We have them here.


Can can I ask a nontechnical questions of you guys? Because I have a Bitcoiner thing coming up where I'm gonna teach Bitcoiners

a a state a a stake

class, basically.

And the question is, like, e a k?


Yeah. Okay. If wait. Wait. Sorry, Josh. Before I interrupt you, if anyone at Bitcoin Park is listening to this, we are operating under the assumption that bit dev starts at 6:30.

If I am incorrect that BitDev starts at 6:30,

please send someone a console

down to the studio to let us know that BitDev is starting earlier.


So here's the question. If you could learn something about steak

or if there's something you don't know about steak that you wanted to learn, I'm not asking you to ask me a steak question. I'm asking you to tell me what you wanna learn. Yeah. It's nice. I'm just sitting next to tie too with who I love. You're both wearing the same shirts. And we are wearing the same steak shirts.


Does Sahil, you you wanna know anything about steak? So is the it's steak related questions?


Yeah. I'm gonna teach people about cooking steak. That's what I I don't know. How much how much salt is too much salt?


Is it possible to salt too much? Your tongue will tell you.


But that's a pretty that's a good,

yeah. Your tongue, you just know.


Go for it. Is is there a good air fryer steak recipe?


Oh, I have no idea. I mean, the answer is I'm sure there is. I've never We're aware an air fryer is just a convection of it, right? Yeah. Yes. But it's a small one. Should you bring a steak to room temperature before


you cook it? This is so contentious. Did you pick up your steak in a self driving taxi?


Yes. Always yes.


Just pick it on the electric hood of the okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna break I'm gonna break the stake conversation down Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Into 3 categories. Okay. I think there's a conversation that you need to teach around buying steak. Yeah. Taking steak out. Seasoning steak Mhmm. And cooking steak. Yeah. Those are all completely separate disciplines.


Yeah. Do you remember the pan wars?

Yes. I do remember them. I won. We lost many good men on that one. Where are you guys now?


I switched. From what to what?

I was Crock pot just,


no. Someone say it on mic so they hear. Yeah. He's Vivek said Vivek.


Said from from supposed to pronounce it? Yes. Yeah. Oh, shit. I'm sorry, dude.


I've been saying Vivek. Oh, here we go. He's still Vivek.


Yeah. His name is Vivek, guys. So those are his preference. Is in the game. So Sahel likes to cook it in a in a crock pot, his steak. That's crazy. No. No. That's not true. I don't know.


Maybe no fake news here. And he switched I switched to steel. Oh, I'm I I have so Which is like a steel pan? Carbon steel, dude. Carbon steel is fire. Wait. Carbon steel is steel. Yeah. Regular steel. Stainless steel. Stainless steel. Yeah. Nah. I'm a carbon I'm a carbon steel guy. Carbon steel's gonna Just use a fucking grill. Just a charcoal grill. That's also a great option. Stone grill. Which because all you guys live in pods, and you don't have backyards to have a grill in. Right? Couple friends Now I do. Got, the Auto Wild, and that's been incredible. That the sponsor of Safe and Dance podcast disclosure? Wait. It's actually


Is that the one? Is it a Yeah. I mean, if he has a girl, I I know that he uses

the auto while.


Yeah. It's isn't that the one that goes up to, like, 1100 degrees? That's like a salamander. Right? It's like a Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a broiler. You put it in and it has, like, a little track thing. Right? It's, like, sits in it. I think mandric has one of those too.


Add some halloumi cheese in there. Well, mandric has, like, a 1000000 different ways. Love a halloumi. Reach. Reach.


The halloumi cheese.


Guys, I think the whole the whole cast iron

stainless steel thing, like, I can't say anything about drive change, but that's the just dumbest conversation I've ever heard. Well, where where do you fall in this? It's just apples and oranges. They're just different tools. You use them I use them both for different things, and you just at 6. What? They told her it starts at 6.


We want huge shout out to Mads, member of the park and, huge contributor to our Overall overall Bitcoin community ex telling us that bid dev starts in 20 minutes, so that's our time line here. Dun dun dun.



Okay. Well, you have no fucking idea for you. Should we go by, meet up?

No. Meet up says 5. It starts at 5. Yeah.

That's a the right. Mhmm. Okay. The state conversation has been great. We have different tools with different. Yeah. We do. It sounds like there's a lot of nuance there. Yeah. Whatever.


I feel like he's trying to segue. It's fine.


Are are you guys aware of the

sale? We have someone in the comments asking opinions. $5,000,000,000,000?



I will not be purchasing


Does anyone have an opinion on it? I just shared my opinion on rabbit hole recap already. I don't have an opinion. You said?

I love Ben Arc. Ben Arc is a real one. Yeah. I love Ben. That's my opinion.


I love Ben Arc.

Also, a very talented cook.

Really? Yeah. What on a pandas, do you use? That's a good question. I feel like he would probably take my side and that it's a dumb convert. It's a dumb question.


There's no such thing as There are no bad pans. Just bad cooks. Yeah. It's just like, what are you gonna make? You're gonna make just a steak? That's fine. If you wanna make a sauce, you're gonna The best advice I go ahead. But best advice I ever got from Josh is, like, number one thing is the ingredients. It's like, if you start with quality ingredients, you're just in a way better situation than if you use shitty ingredients. You can't make a good steak without a good steak. Oh, shit. We can just send it on that.


Hold on. Not well, first, we have to figure out what time. We have Johnny Rico saying microwave.


How do we feel about that? It's different tool, different job. Are you guys aware,


Josh, mostly,


are you aware of the guy who cooks all his meals in a hotel room bathroom? Yes. Oh my god. You know what you guys should if you really wanna go down a rabbit hole Those are the worst bathrooms. You need to you need to watch worst meals. You need to watch the hoarders cooking videos on YouTube. That sounds fucked up. Very. Oh, it's it's awful. I'm in. Okay. Well, anyway, my view on


is that, like, the whole point of nostril is that it doesn't matter who owns

So Got it. Sell it for 5,000,000.

Good for him. I will not be buying it. Domains are a shit coin, and I own a lot of them.

If you wanna buy, nostr fixes this

over my dead body,

ICANN will have to rug me if anyone else is gonna have that domain name. I'm gonna keep that till the day I die. Mads, did you come in with more information?

Yes, sir. It is remains at 6. We have 20 more minutes.

I kinda wanna talk about Barry Silbert rugging,

1,000 of people

and owing 1,000,000,000 of dollars, and the suit's not talking about it.


Do you guys have opinions on this? Do you feel like it's a conversation people are avoiding?


Yeah. There's more Binance FUD than Barry already owing 1,000,000,000 of dollars.

Like, he literally already owes the 1,000,000,000 of dollars. It's been a lot of days. I it's so many days. I don't even keep track of it anymore.

It's been, like, 280 days or

320 days or some shit. We're, like, close to a year. Why do you think people aren't talking about it?

It's the suits, man. The suits.


Maybe they own a lot of GBDC, and they're trying to


But the people that know GBDC hate Barry more than than I do. You know, that's fair. That's fair. That's fair.

He's wronged them so many times. Yeah. He's still charging them a 2% management fee on the total assets under management despite the discount. So In Bitcoin terms. Yeah.


It is so insane.

Yeah. I have no answers for you there. It just seems like such a crazy convoluted



I mean, if you look at most of the blow ups of the cycle, like, it

Barry was connected to them.


Hey. When was the last time he made, like, a public statement or appearance or anything like that? About, like,


13 months ago, he said,

big week. No. I don't know.


I have to say, I don't feel like we've heard a peep from him officially. Like, there's not been, like, a


I guess it's the the grayscale CEO,



After Sonnenshein. Yeah. Sonnenshein.


Sonnenshein. Wait. Say that. What'd you say? Is that how it's pronounced? I don't pronounce names well.

Yeah. I know.


Vivek is saying something. What is he saying? Ake. Ake. Vivek? Yeah. Vivek. Like cake.


Yeah. Barry Silver seemed to be quieting down after

the twins,

started their lawsuit. He says Barry Silver's been quieting down since the twins started their lawsuit. They started sending over, posting, like, letters on social media and saying they got no response and stuff like that. I, like, actually felt pretty bad because,


felt pretty bad because I was, like, doing the,

the tweet template. Like, it's been however many days, and Barry Silver still owes 1,000,000,000 of dollars or whatever. And then, like, the twins, like, did their lawsuit or whatever, and, like, that they, like, used nearly that verbiage.

I was like, wait. Wait. Wait. You guys are not absolved of responsibility here. You're also

like, just because I'm trolling Barry doesn't mean that you guys absolved any responsibility.


You heard it here first. When Matt doesn't say something, it means he agrees with it.


I felt like that was always implied. I But, like, let's let's Clear.


You disagreed with that.

Look. We we know how the world works. We know how the world works. Like, of course, like, after, like, a decade

of not doing it, like, Binance is obviously gonna rug people after I defend them.



do we like,


was advertising itself

as the regulated cryptocurrency

exchange. It was like these suits exchange.

I was at LaGuardia Airport, and I still see grayscale advertisements on all the screens. They were encouraging regulation. They were doing all this shit. Wait. Grayscale I mean, grayscale. Oh, but both of them are doing it. Like, Grayscale was, like, we're, like, the most regulated, trustworthy product in the space, and Gemini was was doing the same exact thing. They had the buses going through

New York, like, where the regulated crypto crypto needs rules. Remember the whole campaign? Like That was all over New York. And they lost 1,000,000,000 of dollars of customer.

I think it's slightly under a 1,000,000,000. 6, 600. But if you include the yield they should have gotten, we're over a $1,000,000,000


Because of what they were, like, promising them, like, 10% yield or whatever, 9% yield.


Quick side note. I do love how you say should have

gotten gotten. Like, you say kitten, and I would say What do you mean? Kitten.




Got in. You say the I don't pronounce things correctly. No. I'm not Or I do. I Everyone pronounce something correctly. You in your pronunciation. I love it. Oh, thank you. Yeah. The average Bitcoiner speaks.


From one average Bitcoiner to an average Bitcoin podcaster.


I mean, I hit all the topics I wanna hit. Do you guys have any other Yeah. Have you tried haven't you guys tried, any of the cashew, like, in you nuts or any of the newer newer apps?


Mm-mm. No? Any interest? I need I am interested. Yes. But I haven't done it. I'm just,


I I have tons of respect for all the guys working on Chamin e Cash,

and I feel like they put a lot of pressure on the Fedimint protocol.

But, like, I'm just

it doesn't really interest me

until we have federated multisig custodians,

because there's still a rug risk with multisig, but at least it's reduced from just a single,

a single custodian. So I just haven't really

been playing with those projects at all.

Also, like,

my Bitcoin experience is 1 filled with burdens right now. I'm running, like, 6 nodes and shit. It's like,

I'm losing money that I don't even know I'm losing. I was I still think l and d should have, like, a big red box on the top that tells me how much Bitcoin I've lost, because I don't know if I've lost any Bitcoin or not. And it would be nice if it wasn't if, like, it said, you haven't lost any bit like, I when I open lnd, it should tell me I haven't lost any Bitcoin

today because I don't know.

Yeah. I've lost a lot in channel closes and Who the fuck knows? How did you how much did you lose?


It's it's in one of the LNDG, one of these tools I use. It tells me, like, oh, in the last 90 days, you've lost I don't know how many Oh, like, terminal or whatever? Yeah. One of those things. I don't know if those numbers are correct. Maybe not. Yeah. I don't know.


Oh my god. Mads is asking why I don't know that. Numbers. What?


And just like all these LNDG, you're like, you're right. I should know that number, but I know I don't wanna know it. I've had so many channels closed in the last Eric, you just said that they gave all that money to you and the other vendors.



will never clear.

Cheers to that. This is I For your force closure is my mining revenue.


I don't even know how we got to put that. This has been chaos, and I love you all. It's been a great party, Rip.

Before we wrap up, I need to read Boostagrams.

We're reading them at the end now so that we can just do

a, like, shock and start. I like the shock and starts to the show.

Thanks to all the freaks who continue to support the show.

Dispatch is is purely audience funded, so,

it is it is supported by wonderful donations from all the freaks out there. So thank you, guys.

And thank you for joining the live chat. I mean, now we have people sending zaps in the live chat using

zap dot stream, which is fucking cool.


So Apple Pay?


No Apple Pay. Zapple Zapple Pay.


Oh, yeah. Zapple Pay is like a way to get around on Domus, but they don't have on zap dot stream, they can just Just do it? Yeah. They just still,

and then you just sign in with your Mpub, and you can just

Oh, that's set. Directly there. I like that. But we also get supported by podcasting 2.0, and they have a feature called boostograms

where you can attach a message with a set amount of sats. And I read the top Boostagrams,

from the last episode,

which was titled bank run on Binance question mark,

with Dylan LeClaire, we have Gary Krause with a 100,001


saying, Primal also censored NPubs in their trending section, then fixed it all almost immediately

in software terms.

Curated nostril algos and trending schemes are only just beginning. Optionality is underrated.

I had a pleasure to meet Gary for the first time. He's here at the park today.

We have rider die freak, Eric 99 with a 100,000 sats saying stay humble, stack sats.

Great advice. Thank you, Eric.

We have 8 Myth Randur with 77,777

sats saying,

CD 108, Nick's Bitcoin episode was awesome. Definitely going to look into that more. CD 109, Stay Humble in Stack SADs. And then he said, error boosting CDs node.

Once again,

the sovereign lightning burden continues.

I have a lot of inbound.

I just wanna say one thing about hit his handle. I'm sorry. The money went back to your wallet. Just keep that in mind, so thank you for your attempt at donating.


Sick handle from Mithrandir because that's the Elvish name for Gandalf, and that's a sick Lord of the Rings reference. Yeah. Supposedly, I quoted Gandalf the other day because they said we're not early or late. We're right on time. That is a paraphrase Gandalf quote. Another I came up with it myself. No believes me. Another incredible Gandalf quote is all we have to do all we have to decide is what to do with the time that it's given us. Me and Gandalf are like minded, you know. So here's my question.


Oh, side wrote. Is is the is the quote not all who wander are lost from Gandalf? It's not all who wander are lost. It is not. It's actually a quote from Aragorn


who was quoting an earlier

poem which


something like not all that is go all that is gold does not glitter. Not all who wander are lost. The old that is strong does not wither. Deep roots are not reached by the frost.


Matt Matt, can you pass me this Kleenex?


Madison, I've done. I mean, we got, like, a we got a Lord of the Rings specialist. It doesn't fit. And then we have ride or die free That was beautiful. Come rocket with 69,420

sad saying, if I could throw my foil hat in the ring, McCormick could get Binance as a sponsor and reverse Cramer Binance down the drain. You never know. Stay humble, stack s p s g.

Come, Rocket. I'm a huge fan. I don't think you are. I did not get those hats either. He says there was an error. Thank you for attempting to support the show.

I don't know, Frizz. I like, I'm sorry. You're

the money goes back to you. So just keep keep boosting,

and you might even get it back, and you don't even have to spend the money, and you get to support the show that way. It's like that's a great deal.

So cheers to you on that. Before we wrap up, let's hit some final thoughts. We'll start

with resident Lord of the Rings specialist, Harry Sudhak. Harry, final thoughts.


Come to Bitcoin Park. Come visit us. It would be an incredible honor to host you.


Thanks, Harry.

We have

Pod Living,

self driving car, Shiel, Sahil here.

Final thoughts, Sahil?


Don't live in the pond, but ride in the self driving cars. I get noted. Thank you. Thank you, Sahil.


It was always a pleasure having you what? No. Nothing. Sorry. What? You're just gonna I'm I'm

okay. And we're gonna wrap up with final thoughts from from the world's average No. I said, don't say it. I'll fuck.

Josh beefsteak Josh,

final thoughts. Take control of your keys. Surround yourself with Bitcoiners you love. Aw. Cheers to that. Shout out to all the freaks who continue to support the show. Join us in the live chat.

We have a lot of people here, in Nashville. We're gonna have a lot more people coming in over the next few days.

So subscribe on your favorite platform. Keep an eye on Noster,


I'm just gonna go live. I'm just gonna go live with different people at different times. I'm gonna talk about shit, and, hopefully, you guys find it helpful.

And, hopefully, you'll come visit us at some point in the future. So cheers to all you go all y'all,


Cheers. Peace.