July 22, 2023

CD107: 40 Day Fast with Russell Okung

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Citadel Dispatch

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BLOCK: 799664
PRICE: 3345 sats per dollar
TOPICS: life, family, freedom

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(00:00:32) Introduction and gratitude for audience support

(00:01:09) Ways to support the podcast

(00:01:30) Boostograms and new live chat

(00:02:44) Supporting the show through subscriptions and reviews

(00:03:39) Gratitude for live show attendees

(00:05:24) Introduction of guest, Russell Okung

(00:06:12) Russell Okung's transition out of football

(00:09:01) Russell Okung's 40-day fast and its purpose

(00:15:19) Russell Okung's current diet

(00:25:10) The importance of community and family

(00:32:43) The role of tribes and local communities

(00:39:46) The significance of the kitchen and communal meals

(00:46:07) The impact of social media addiction and the desire to protect children

(00:48:28) The benefits of taking a break from technology

(00:49:00) The importance of finding ways to have fun and be more present

(00:52:15) The challenges and benefits of fasting

(00:58:12) The different perspectives on medical science and the need for more research

(01:08:08) The discussion around ordinals and the balance between freedom and malicious actors

(01:26:09) The potential of Nostr and the importance of open protocols

(01:32:06) The need for more leadership and creativity in the space

(01:33:48) The purpose of Okung's Fast and the feedback received

(01:34:24) Mimicking and mining the bitcoin network

(01:35:02) Considering leading a 21-day bitcoin fast


00:32 - Introduction and gratitude for audience support

01:09 - Ways to support the podcast

01:30 - Boostograms and new live chat

02:44 - Supporting the show through subscriptions and reviews

03:39 - Gratitude for live show attendees

05:24 - Introduction of guest, Russell Okung

06:12 - Russell Okung's transition out of football

09:01 - Russell Okung's 40-day fast and its purpose

15:19 - Russell Okung's current diet

25:10 - The importance of community and family

32:43 - The role of tribes and local communities

39:46 - The significance of the kitchen and communal meals

46:07 - The impact of social media addiction and the desire to protect children

48:28 - The benefits of taking a break from technology

49:00 - The importance of finding ways to have fun and be more present

52:15 - The challenges and benefits of fasting

58:12 - The different perspectives on medical science and the need for more research

01:08:08 - The discussion around ordinals and the balance between freedom and malicious actors

01:26:09 - The potential of Nostr and the importance of open protocols

01:32:06 - The need for more leadership and creativity in the space

01:33:48 - The purpose of Okung's Fast and the feedback received

01:34:24 - Mimicking and mining the bitcoin network

01:35:02 - Considering leading a 21-day bitcoin fast


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Couldn't do without you. So, anyway,

that's my


This is a great conversation that I'm very excited about.

I'm really looking forward to it. We have a really good friend, joining us.

We have Russell Okun,


I guess, forever Super Bowl champion,

big winner,

joining us today after a 40 day fast.

Russell, how's it going?

Russell Okung:


I'd first like to say that

I'm changed, man,

and I don't think I'll ever be the same.

And then,

you know, I've been on my knees praying

since 3 AM this morning for this audience.

And so,

every person who decides to listen,

to share their time with us,

And I'm praying for you.

I'm praying for those who


in the know and who are walking in truth,

or in a essentially seeing the world through a different lens. I pray for you. I pray for those who feel misunderstood

and not heard. I I'm lifting you up. So at first, I'd like to give,

our praise and honor to the most high god, the god of Ibrahim.

And I say to all those who are listening

in the tongue

of my forefathers

in, Greece and peace unto you.



thank you so much for having me on, brother.


Thank you for coming on, and thank you for for everything you do and what you stand


And thank you for being a friend.

Russell Okung:



I don't know where we should really start.

I kinda the both you guys can look like

you just you just completed a 40 day fast. Before that I mean, before the 40 day fast,

you did something that I have a ton of respect for, which is

you spent a a large portion of your life in the public eye,

and you just stepped away.

You just stepped away. You you stepped in

into into, I guess, in a greater focus into family life and priorities and getting your life in order.

Let's talk about that for a little bit. When did you

when did that happen? Was that over a year ago?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was over a year ago and,

actually, less than a year ago.


you know, it was

since I've been 10 years old, man, I've had people, you know,

watching me,

right, and

shouting praise and,

you know, affirming me.

You know? And I've always

it's become a large part of who I am,

right, in in terms of performing for society or,

you know, in the public eye.

You know, when, after my last season with the Carolina Panthers,

I was just taking a hard look in, you know, into the mirror,

looking at my family,

my children,


trying to figure out, like, who's the man I wanna be?

I've always kinda been praying preparing for transition in some ways,

out of the NFL, but you kinda really never know when it's gonna come.

You know? And you have people that just kinda, you know you know, this abruptly happens to, and you have some people who can decide when they wanna leave, and you have others who are forced out of the game.


I just

was looking in the mirror. I knew it was it was becoming increasingly hard to get up every morning.

Like, my body was in pain,

and I was, you know, just trying to figure out what was next to Carolina. Teams were calling me. They weren't they weren't signing me. They're offering me money.

I'm just, like,

I was having issues with with my wife, and I I couldn't emotionally connect

with with my my wife and my children and my family. I was

and I just knew something needed to change.

Right? So that's ultimately,

you know, what drove me to the fast

is there wasn't some desire for weight loss as most people would proclaim.

It was a desire to be a better son,

a better husband, a better father,

a better person.

I I wanted that. Right? I wanted to be a better leader. I know there are a lot of people who look to me, who are depending on me, so I had to just cut down everything

and focus.

That same skill I've had


achieving these feats in the professional football field. I wasn't doing that same thing with my family,

with my loved ones. Those were closest to me.

And so I just took that same energy and that effort,

and I reoriented it. I redirected it to them.

And I gotta tell you, man, it has been the best thing I've ever done,

the best thing I've ever done.


It's inspiring.

It's inspiring, my dude.


so, I mean, let's talk about that. So, I mean, the

the headlines would have you believe that it was

all about weight loss.

Russell Okung:



I mean, it's a crazy number. What is the number? I guess I should know it. I'm the


But the number is insane, how much weight you lost.

Russell Okung:

Yes. I was I was £330,

you know, after

I, finished with Carolina

and going up


So that so that's when I did my first pass, and then this more recent one,

you know, I lost

roughly, you know, 50 to £60.


I mean, it's I've I saw number 190. Was that an accurate number, or is that bullshit? Right. I

Russell Okung:

you know what? I can't I still can't believe it, but, like, it's an accurate number. About 192, I believe.


Oh, wow. That's that's insane. I mean, you lost, like, a whole person worth of weight. I haven't been out late since 8th grade.

Okay. But it it wasn't about weight loss at all?

Russell Okung:


Not at all.

No, man. It was, you know, it's about all the things that I mentioned. And I I think, you know,

since I've had more of this time to myself and I don't have all these demands, I've, you know, I've really, you know, been getting into history more, and

I've been tapping into some of my family's practices. I went to Africa.

You know, I'm, like, I'm in the bush. I'm in the village, you know, and I'm seeing and remembering

our our our cultures and belief system.

You know? Like and fasting has always been a very

intrinsic part of the culture I come from. I I was a child, and I remember,

you know, my family dry fasting.

No water, no food.

I'm just so determined,

right, to see their lives change,

And it was crazy. It's not insane.

But I found myself at that same

that same chasm,

And I just said, okay. I wanna do this for myself. So I I think,

like, in the very essence of fasting, right, it suggests that things are not well.

Right? Well, particularly fasting in this way.

Right? That

if you see fasting as a fundamental component,

right, of our culture, of our existence,

right, to refrain from it,


especially when it's in the natural order of life,

it implies that one is looking for disruption.

You're looking for disruption.

Right? And

I guess in some ways, I was reflecting

on the chaotic state of affairs of the world.

Right? And

I wanted to look in that mirror,

and, you know, fasting's interesting because it kinda brings out the the deepest in things in you.

And, I I noticed, right, it almost intensified,

you know, what I think was laying dormant.

You know? So I was experiencing

crazy highs of sorrow and abnormality.

Right? I was being confronted with all the all of these raw emotions,

right, and the tragedy,

you know, of of things that I've gone through in life that I just kinda pushed aside,

not even trying to think about. Right?

And the best thing about it, though, was

I witnessed

the fragility of my life.

Right, that

my life can be gone at any moment in time.

Right? And it's been beautiful

because I've emerged

with newfound strength,

with resilience,

and I think it's a practice

which is completely underestimated,

right, particularly in a culture which is obsessed

obsessed with consumption.



Russell Okung:

I can talk too much, so feel free to cut me off.


No. I'm just gonna let you run for as as

until you realize that I'm letting you run, and then I'm gonna jump in. That's my strategy.

It was almost a reset.


Russell Okung:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

you know,

I think I was living in pain for so so long. You kinda think it's your best friend. You almost expect things for be it to be this way.

You're like, okay. This this hurts,

or I'm dealing with this ailment or this sickness.

And you just figure, for whatever reason, this is just how life is supposed to be.

Right? You normalize it,

and I think that is one of the most dangerous things you could do. And look, I'm not a medical professional,

and I just wanna preface anything I say that I it's not what I do for a living.

Right? So I I but I I put myself out there twice now, I've learned that this is a historical ancient practice


pretty prevalent in many other cultures, just not in the West.


Yeah. I mean,

Russ, I

I mean, I can relate to

the fact that our society


unfortunately incredibly focused on consumption.

This conversation is mostly gonna be me relating to you as a friend because,

I have zero qualifications

to talk about,

fasting or even spirit

of, like,

of of of of finding your spirituality.

I I don't

I've I've tried,

but I'm definitely by no means,

well versed. I'm still learning on my side.

When when when we when you when you think about

I guess, I I don't even know where I wanna go with this. Okay. So

40 day fast. We went through a 40 day fast. You went through a 40 day fast. I didn't do shit. We.

Russell Okung:

We did.



but you're still not really

I mean, you're not eating solid foods right now. Right?

Russell Okung:

No. No. I I'm still,


just, you know, juiced

raw fruits and vegetables.



Russell Okung:

So how long you've been doing that for? That's been how many days? So it's gonna be it's a weak regimen. Now so for about a week, it's nothing but raw fruits and and vegetables just juiced.

Right? And

I'm I'm pretty careful about, like, you know, the sort of glycemic index. So I I try not to take fruits that are, like, are high in sugar.

Right. You know? So that's that's, like, the challenge. You know?

And, you know, the thing about fasting is, like, the refeeding

procedure is just as important.

You know? Like, some people just say, okay. What well, withdrawal, you know, know, and then they come back in. They're eating meat. Right. And, like, the body can only handle so much. Like, when you have depleted, you know, yourself and you know, your your your body is now eating its own fat reserves,

I think trying to, you know, impart too much into the body can be very dangerous.

You know? But, again, right, if we're looking at this from, like, an you know,

the the lens of seeing it as an ancient practice,

Now just like a like,

people 100,

if not 1000 of years ago didn't have food readily available.

You couldn't just choose and say, I'm gonna eat all this Right.

Thing. Right?

You know?


So, like, hunt and gather, and

and and and time would go on while you were in between meals naturally.

Russell Okung:

Seriously. You know, it was it was a couple times when I'd be sleeping,

you know, for the very little amount of time I would

is I mean, every little sound could wake me up. Right? I would be

chewing in my sleep. It was

it was insane. Yeah. I was, like,

on street.


Like like, fight or flight mode.


could smell everything.

Smell like, I mean, I I could be outside and I could you could smell the the trees had a distinct smell, the grass,

fruit. I

remember, like, one time, I somebody from my family was drinking wine. I could it was very,

you know,

it's rich. It's very rich smell. You know? And I I couldn't believe I had tapped in. I feel like I tapped into something.


And I I mean, I see a lot of people try and tap into that,

myself included by, like, what's almost become a fad, which is this intermittent fasting,


is, you know, you you do much shorter fast than 4 like, incredibly shorter fast than 40 days. Maybe you skip a meal or something like that.


But, I mean, this is just a whole another level.

40 days

I mean, longer than 40 days, essentially, with no solid food.

Like, I can't even

I do wonder from

a strictly nutrition point of view if I would die,

because I didn't start with so much, you know,

muscle and fat that you started with.

Russell Okung:

Yeah. I think that's something to pay attention to. I underrate it.

Yeah. I don't want you to die.

No. But but, like, you know, like, I've read studies. Right? There there is information in regards to, one, prepping to fast.

Right. So whether that is increasing your caloric intake, you know,

or, you know, fats,

and and proteins, like, you know so if if you're saying, hey. I wanna fast

for x amount of time, you know, like, you can prepare yourself to do so, you know, just by taking some things up and,

you know, and and, you know, I I I can send you some of them at some point. Or you can find me, I'll just put it on Twitter so people can just kinda read it for themselves. You know, but it's,

I've had I've seen people much leaner than me do it.

You know? I've seen people much larger than me do it. You know? And it's, you know I think it's something that,

requires an understanding of your own uniqueness.


But this is something you think everyone should

do at some point?

Russell Okung:

So I I guess so when

my family right? Like, when

when I told them I was fasting,


one of my uncles laughed at me.

He was like, oh, yeah. You're fasting? He said, how long? Like, 40 days?

He's like, okay. No problem.

We're gonna fast with you.

He has a family of, like, maybe, like, 6 or 7.

Right? And, like, he essentially made a decision,

you know,

in proxy of his family

to say everybody's fasting,

right, for 40 days. Can you imagine that?

Like, he's just like that's that's how normal it is, right, in the culture I come from to fast.

Right? And it's like he's much smaller than me. You know? And but to to him, it's just like, this is not just

an action.

Right? It's a it's a way of life. It's a lifestyle.

Right? And, you know, I I think it's so I think everybody


Wait. So did they do with you?


They did all 40 days.

Russell Okung:

Well, I I think 4 of them dropped. Fair. The last 3, which were the oldest ones, stayed on,

and they're like, they're 70 plus. So 2

2 or 70 plus that stayed on, and then one of them was was 40, and the other one ended up dropping.


The young guns the young guns let the ball down.

Russell Okung:

Right. And you know what's crazy? My uncle told me, yeah. I'm thinking about doing another 30 days after the the 40 day fast. Right? He's like, I'm gonna do 70.

I'm like, what?

Like, you are insane.


And this is a full fast. Right? This is not, like, a Ramadan fast where you just eat during nights, or

this is a full.

No no food.

Russell Okung:

No food. No electrolytes. No supplementation.

Just water. Just water.


It's incredibly impressive. It's incredibly impressive.

Russell Okung:

You know

you know what's weird? You know? And I mentioned, like, the the sort of, fragility of life earlier,

because I've had people who would ask me, you know, in the middle of the fast, and they would say, aren't you afraid of dying?

And I got to the point where I was just like,



in some ways,

I was seeing the improvements in my family,

the closeness

I was having with with my wife. I remember my son who is he's so bright. He's amazing. My oldest son.

You know? He's the one that can actually communicate much much much more, than others. You


And he has seen me me all types of people. He is, you know, knows I did football. He knows,

you know, you know, certain certain levels of my gifting.

He's never,

like, applauded me ever.


one day, we're sitting downstairs. I'm watching him eat. Right? And, like, he's just carving it up,

and he says you know, he tells me, Baba, he says, Baba,

one day I'm gonna be like you.

I am going to fast just like you, Baba, for 40 days.

That it might have been in one of the most beautiful things.

Get choked up thinking about this.

As a person who

lost her father at his roughly around his same age,

right, who didn't have male role models,

right, essentially make their life and grow up very quick.

Right? Like, it touched me. It touched me that my oldest son, the one who looks just like me,

who wants to is saying, I wanna be like you, not because of football,

not because of where I think your intelligence is,

but but because you are fasting, you are depriving yourself

for our family.

He gets it.


now I I forgot the question

that you asked.

You know?



Well, you answered the better question.

I mean, Russ, you said if if family,

there's a massive focus here.

And we were touched on it a little bit before we went live, but,

you know, how do you view this

It it's so interesting,

this idea of

of of being a football player, an American football player,

as a career,

and then transitioning out of it. It's unlike other

it's it's unique in terms of careers or professions

Mhmm. In terms of how dramatic that change can be,


intentionally and unintentionally. A lot of times, you know, for players, it can be unintentional and or they get an injury or something, and then it just ends.

How have you how has your experience with that transition been? And particularly from a

perspective of of family and and time being able to spend with your family?

Russell Okung:

Oh, that's a good question.

You know,

I miss the locker room.

I really miss I miss

men getting together,

having a goal.

Right? Because, you know, because, you know, we huddle up. Right? We huddle up. The quarterback essentially disseminates whatever the play is. Right? We have a goal. Right, and our opposition,

they also have a goal.

Right? Their goal is to stop us. Right? The or the defense, their goal is to stop us, like, you know, while I'm on offense.

Right? And,

you know, football was a an opportunity to practice that

every single day

for 10, 12 hours a day.


So I miss that.

I miss the locker rooms. I miss,

you know, achieving

things and and seeing

your achievement in real time.

You Now it's it's sports is much more linear,

you know, as opposed to life, which is which is exponential. You know, certain things happen and and can change all the time.


I you know, you know, you talked with George, and, you know, George George McKell, you know, my brother-in-law.


he's talked a lot about the the the social layer, you know, of Bitcoin. We spend a lot of time, you know, working on that.

You know? And, you know, we've we've both had our challenges.

You know, in

look. I I I read,

Sovereign Individual like most Bitcoiners.

Right? And I'm very impressed,

you know, with a a future

where there can be technological advancements,

right, and the rise of a digital currency in a decentralized


But I worry sometimes,

right, that

perhaps there are too many ideals

of anarchy and


or advocating for individual sovereignty.

Right? Maybe those things take too much of the forefront. Now I'm with it, man. You know, when it comes to minimal govern government,



I'm with that. Right? But I I also wanna recognize the challenges,

right, that I think

trying to solely discuss empowering the individual,

right, can have.

You know? And and I keep going back to my my family's understanding. You know? And, you know, my family is,

their model and what's modeling called Nigeria.

Right? And,

but we hold traditions and migration patterns throughout the entire continent.

Right? And I grew up appreciating the beauty

of the part of my American heritage and experience,

but I think there are values which can be gleaned

from cultures outside,

right, of the



I think that's something which, you know, goes is is often missed or is not a perspective I would like to see, you know, as much. Right? Like,

I've been thinking a lot through,

obviously, with proper context here, you know, this the idea of a state or a consortium of states.

Right? They're they're operating as these distinct tariffs, territories.

And I come from something which is more of a a a tribe, you know, where Right. You know,

this tribe,

it's not like a state where it has this kinda sovereign,


Right? But instead, a tribe is a social

and ethnic, if not political cohesive group of people.

Right? So I've been wrestling with this concept of this tribal

function, right, state versus the sovereign individual

thing. Right?


while the sovereign individual seeks autonomy and self governance and freedom,

right, all these which are are valuable,

the a tribal society,

like, also functions from a decentralized form of power. Right? And, you know, you

you you can also build up

a sense of personal agency




at the same time, aligns itself with the ideas of the sovereign individual.

Right? So the I mean, I can I can rift on that, but, you know,

when I think about

making this this change,

you know, I see many

people in the Bitcoin space as family,

It's not closer than my blood family?

Right? And I think that's something which needs to be tapped into.

These are things that can only happen by humans coming together.

Right? I I hate when people confuse the idea of an audience, you know, in a community.

I hate it, right, because a community requires people to truly be together.

I I love what you're doing in Nashville, by the way. I wanna make sure I I recognize that. Right? Because you understand

human interaction.

Right? There there's things that that cannot be done without without that.


Right? And, like, I think we need more of that. You should come visit with your family. I'll pick you up from the airport,

and we'll show you firsthand.

Russell Okung:

You you how many car seats do you have?


We can

we can make it work. I have at least 2 car seats.

Russell Okung:

Alright. Alright.

Let's get it.


My my co my my cofounder at the park,

Rod, has,

he's he's on the verge of having a basketball team worth of children.


very family oriented over here in Nashville.


you know,

I've I've thought about that,


a lot

on, like, the sovereign individual thesis and families and tribes and local communities.

And I I I think when you empower individuals,

I think

it's it's

it's inherently a grassroots

bottom up


and process, and


and it it inherently empowers,

families. It empowers

the family unit. It empowers local communities. It empowers tribes,

rather than this



Russell Okung:



Naturally trending to corrupt,

you know,

large governance body that is that is nation state governance right now.

And I think,

the result is

a much better world.

It's it's hard to kind of

if you've lived in if you've lived in a world,

if you lived in the existing world, particularly in the developing world, I mean, there's still places in the world where,

local communities and tribes kinda come first.

It's it's it's hard to really fathom

what that kind of world looks like, but

that's how humanity has existed for the overwhelming majority of our existence.

And it only seems natural that

we'd go back to

at least something that looks similar. Right?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's,

but it that that was wonderfully said.


there's another comment I kinda wanna make on top of that because I feel like it's it's worth being acknowledged.

Go for


You know, did you see that that video? I just saw this video today of

this guy who might have, like, like, essentially lost his pension. At least that's how it's being framed. Did you see that video?


No. I have not watched it, but I

Russell Okung:

Okay. Well, it's essentially this this guy, you know, who they're in some type of warehouse, I I recall,

and he's upset,

right, about, you know, some pension reductions.

You know? And, I I I think,

I can't remember where I saw it or whose page it was.

You know, and he's, you know, just

he's just he's cursing and, you know, and, you know, people are posting, like, you know, this is what happens, you know, when people would depend on pensions their entire lives and, you know, the companies which were supposed to be investing their pensions,

you know,

mismanaged funds, etcetera,



at first glimpse, when I saw that video, I thought about it the same way.

But now as I kinda reflect on it, you know, particularly in light of our conversation that we're having right now,


you know, there is

when I went back to the village,

in in Nigeria,

I noticed

most people don't have pensions.

Most people don't have insurance.

Their pensions,

their insurance

is their neighbor.

It's the people that live next to them.

Right? So

when we talk about,

you know, essentially, this communal responsibility,

right, or tribes,

right, having the strong of

strong sense of communal responsibility,

and, like, they're baked into that can be mutual aid.

Right? And if you can build the sense of interdependence,

right, you can encourage individuals to exercise

the sovereignty

in ways that benefit the collective.

Right? And you can


right, through leadership, of course,


a balance between personal freedom

and communal well-being. And I just think these are things which, you know, I think have historically been thought about in black or white. Right? Nobody wants to get into the nuance. They just wanna tag Right. Something with a certain level of framing.

Right? But I think there's an incredible opportunity right now,

you know, with the level of fanaticism,

you know, in Bitcoin to build cultural sovereignty.

Right? We can build that now


you know, you mentioned earlier,

you know, that, you weren't a spiritual person. I wanna push back on you on that.

Right? Because when I think about what you know, why is Bitcoin

captivating me so deeply,


And how is it that this technology and lines of code, right, have, you know,

they have had this

this this power.

Right? It's and and I think it's because Bitcoin fundamentally,

within its rules,


a natural experience.

It's the human experience,

cyclically, which we we go through

forever and ever, right, for years and 1000 of years.

So there's a term called, biomimicry.

Right? And

are you familiar with that term? Yes. Yeah. So, you know, you know, for those who are listening, bios means life, and memesis means to imitate.

Alright. So most of the,

you know, the greatest technologies,

you know, whether it's like, you know, certain

the aerodynamics of of of planes or even Velcro.


Like, these things ultimately came from man observing nature,

right, and then building

his the the or fashioning,


you know, to to to build technology.

Right? And when I think about Bitcoin, it fits that same ethos.

Right? So what we're experiencing, those who are awake

and who understand

what Bitcoin can be, right, not just as a function of money, you know, but as a protocol.



that is

a spiritual,


That is it. Right? So I think if you get Bitcoin,

right, it's pretty particularly from the level I've heard you eloquently,

communicate, Matt. Right?

Sir, you are

here on that journey just like just like all of us are. We're all on this journey.

You know? So,

again, I've been long winded, but I I'm excited to talk to you. I don't know if you can tell.


The feeling is mutual, brother. I

I mean, I'm

I I guess my point is is that I am very much learning, and I'm very much

in a process of improvement on that front.

Russell Okung:




yeah, I don't know. I mean,

my wife is not.

My wife is

incredibly spiritual and and very connected.

And I'm I'm just constantly trying to

do better for for myself and for her and our our family, and I just,

it's just some it's just something that I I do battle with.

Just that constant improvement. And just, like, this idea of,

for better or for worse, what,

we both got ourselves wrapped up in, which

is this society that is dominated by

social media and being connected


and the dopamine hits of notifications

and having your phone on.

Like, I mean, you wanted to we're talking about a 40 day fast,

not eating

not eating food and only consuming water for 40 days.

Like, how much of America can do a 40 day fast of of social media or their cell phone? Just turn off their cell phone for 40 days.



and I don't know the last time I turned off my cell phone for 40 days. So


it's important for me to keep myself,

in in check and humble in that way that that

I probably should,

but I haven't. And why haven't I?

And and and where do my priorities lie, and where do I take it from there. Right?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. Can I can I make it practical?


Yeah. Go for it. Times, I think. I like practical. Okay. Okay.

Russell Okung:

Thank you. So I like, let's say, like, I think sometimes when when people are mentioning spiritual things, it's it almost feels like it's,

it's it's you know, you're holier than now or, you know, you're,

you know, it's just kind of a woo woo type of ordeal.

Like, I wanna put it in practical terms, and I think this is,

this can be helpful for many people.

Because I've I've been working through this concept, and it and it came to me, in the last couple days and fast,

particularly because I was having

watching my family eat, and I'm I'm there. We we we eat together. Right? So whether we're eating or not, we're always sitting at the table. My wife and the kids and whoever's at our house, we're gonna sit at the table. We don't it's not it's never,

you go over here, you go over here, like, no, we sit together, we commune.


I had to start. I said, well, I think the most sacred space,

right, in a person's home is a kitchen.

And, like, let's just think about this for a moment. Right?

There's an act preparing substance for yourself and your loved ones.

Right? That's an offering.

That's a sacred ritual that connects us to our primal nature.

Right? So, like

okay. I'm gonna see if I can reframe this. Imagine this. Right? In a kitchen,

there are pots and pans,

there are utensils

and spices.


And this operates as this

this sacred altar

where the essence of your life

the essence of your life, like your effort,

your labor,

your resources are all being transformed into an edible dish.

Right? And, like, I I really wanna kinda, like, hone in on this.

Right? But for those who who are listening and if you're like me, you you got, you know, your podcast on, like, 2 x. Right? I want you to slow down and hear this, because I think

I think this is an important key.

Right? Is

in the kitchen,

stories unfold.

Right? It's where


of people, my mother

or grandmother,

they whisper their wisdom.


They give you

their ancestors' traditions,

and they're woven into every fabric of the recipe.

Right? That kitchen is where laughter

and tears and and celebration, and you go through all of life's rhythms.

Right? And,

you know, I actually have memories

that are infused

into everything that I've eaten. Right? There are things in which are very euphoric for me.

Right? And

to me, that's

that is the spirit.

Right? That is


Those experiences,

Right? The understanding that in this room, and by by, I mean, this room, I mean, the kitchen,

right, is

it's where sustenance becomes sustenance for the soul.

And I think

for anyone who has a child

can understand this,

right, that it is

a sacred service, a gesture,

right, when you feed your your children.

It does something to

you. Right? It it reminds you of this interdependence

that exist in our society.

You know? And,

I think it's possible for anyone to live in that.

Anyone. Right? When you when you're in the kitchen,

you're in a sacred place

because you're communing.

Right? And


is a sacred act, whether it's from plate

all the way to seed. Right? It involves our efforts, our label, our labor,

our essence.

You know? So I wanna encourage you and anybody listening.

You know?

We are spiritual people.

Right? But we're dealing with much more than we can actually see.

And, you know, forgive me. I'm I'm imposing my own ideas.

You know? But,

I hope that it helps somebody.


Well, we're all here to listen to your ideas. So

Russell Okung:

Thank I mean, thank you for the floor, man. Usually, in in sports interviews, they cut you off, and they're you got somebody, like, in the back.


You're forgiven.

Yeah. I'm not gonna ask you about the play. That was a great play. Like, obviously, what else are you gonna say?

Russell Okung:


One one more thing, though, because I and, like, I you know?

That's funny. Sports interviews continue. I've seen what you've been saying,

in regard to the blue check stuff, man. Oh, really?



Russell Okung:

you're right.

You're absolutely right.


like, I I think it's it's

it's going to be horrible.

Right? We we can ultimately come from this. Right? And I I gotta go check.

I'm aware. Right. I know you're aware. I I I you know what? I knew you weren't gonna give me a passport, so I'm bringing it up first.

But look. Right? Here's

the reality.

Right? Is I think in Bitcoin, right right now, at least in the industry,

I think

we gotta figure out ways

to, you know, to to reach across the aisle.

Right? Like, we need leadership in a different form of ways.

Right? And, like, in some ways, man, I'm I'm taking this blue check so my kids don't need to take a blue check. Right?

You know? Like

like, I I don't want them to be online, to be honest with you.

Right? So for me, like, I there are things in which,

you know, it benefits people. Algorithm can benefit people and things which can be built on. And I just hope that people can see the real me. They don't just see the blue check. Right? Like, I'm gonna make this thing work for best as I for as best as I can because I know that, ultimately,

I'm building a community, right, of people.

Right? And they can benefit from the the things that I can put my attention and my effort to. Right? So I respect people on both sides.

You know? I respect people who, you know, who are doing the blue check thing and who aren't.

You know? I respect people on on all ends, man, and

thanks for giving me that pass, bro.


I was not gonna bring it up.

Russell Okung:



I I I kinda wanna talk about,

I mean, you said it,

you'd you'd rather your your children not be on the Internet.

Russell Okung:



And this is something that I wrestle with.

Social media addiction,

all the negatives of


of our digital connected lives,

and the addiction we have to the little computer in our pocket, the little surveillance device in our pocket.

Russell Okung:



But then also, you know, the power of Freedom Tech and the power of being a part of that movement,

and and not wanting them to be

not wanting our children to be,

completely unequipped

for the world that comes. I mean,

if we think that we're digitally connected now, I don't even

I don't think we can really fathom what, you know, 20 years in the future looks like or 40 years in the future looks like.

How do you like, how do you think about that?

Russell Okung:

It's a good question.

It's a hard question

and one that I,

like to wrestle with every day. And we we've done a pretty good job,

you know, keeping the children away from, you know, screen. And techno, we got rid of our television.

You know,

the most ACR phones is, like, when we're on it, my wife and I.

But we also noticed,

now that we have a limited our screen time,

you know, the amount,

the conversations we have, like, now we we homeschool our children, you know, so we're the ones educating them.

You know, so everything is is interactive. It's hands on. Right. We're we're we're constantly more dealing with people.

So I think when you say yes,

you know, to using more digital technologies,

you're saying no to physical interaction.

And, like, I understand, you know,

people see Bitcoin as this, you know,

Internet native currency, and I think it has its place.

And I'm not gonna, you know, you know,

not acknowledge,

right, that we are looking

at essentially a digital form of technology that can't be that can be used.

You know? But

I think it's meant to just be used,

you know, and not the other way around. We don't wanna allow it to use us.

So I I I really believe this takes a certain level of

of discipline.

You know? And,

we we we made commitments. You know, at least, you know, one day, we honor the we honor the Sabbath.

One day out of the week,

no technology. Everything's off.

And, man, it it has been


And I'm gonna offer you the same invite. If you and your wife are ever, you know, out here,

come stay with us, man. We turned everything off, and we we have a good time. And we color. We paint.

Things I haven't done since I've been a child, man. We just we find ways to, you know, to to have fun, right, to do what we used to do as children,

right, when things were so much more simple.

You know? So, I'm still learning, man. And if you have any tips,

I will take I will take some from you too. I'm learning from you on this front.


We're definitely gonna take you up on that offer. It means a lot. You're welcome, man. We have extra space. You can you can you can stay with us if you like. I've been wanting to meet your we've both been wanting to meet your family for a while now. Yeah.

I I mean

I mean, I try not to get personal on the show, but,

it was really special how we met. The first time me me and you met was also the first time you you met my wife. My wife was with me. We met you together


For the Indy 500,

with Jack Mallers

Russell Okung:



And the Bitcoin car. That was crazy fucking


Russell Okung:

That was a lot of fun.


Yeah. That was a lot of fun. I it kind of, that was my first time going to a

racing event, which is a it's just a really

it's a it's a weird way to experience

a whole sport for the first time.

Like, at the top. I mean, we were in

Yeah. We're on the track. You know? We're in the owner's suite.

It kinda just sets, like, this super high bar,

and then you just if you go to a racing event after that, you're like, oh, I I I got peaked on my first time.


Russell Okung:

Did you remember when I was,

you know, I I kinda thought, like, all professional sports are the same.

So, like, we go down to,

what's that area called? You know, we're likely to have the pit stops and all that type of stuff. The pit. Yeah. And,

like, we who who's what was the other bank, that, was it PVC Bank? It was PNC.

PNC. PNC Bank. And I see their driver, and, like, I just started talking trash to him.

And I'm thinking, like, that's what people do.

Like, you talk trash to the opposing team, like, to to to kinda get in their head, to get them out of their game. And, like, everybody was looking at me, like, why are you talking trash to this dude?

I'm like, isn't this what people do? And he was upset, like

he was he was pissed.

You know? And, like, and I remember, like, one of the owners took me aside. It's like, hey. It's not this isn't football. Like,

we don't really do that.


Yeah. It is interesting, the different sports.

Russell Okung:

Yeah. It's, it was pretty funny. The different,


cultures that they have.

Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, that was anyway, it to me to to our family, it was always special that,

my wife and I met you at the same time.

Russell Okung:

Without a doubt. Without a doubt, you spoke with special people.


You're very

Thank you, sir.


so, I mean,

can we just dive a little bit into, like, the actual,

like, the actual experience of not eating food for 40 days.

I mean, your family was still eating. You're sitting at the dinner table together, which by the way, I think is a,


low lift,

massive life improvement to insist on that Yep. At the very least.

What was the you know, what was the hardest part? I mean, like, what did you do?

Were were you were literally just sitting there while they ate around you. Did that make it more difficult? Did that make it easier?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. I think the first,

couple of days like, so, really, I I would say for anybody who likes to kinda go about it, just, you know, they wanna fast.

The first 4 days are the hardest.

You know? And, you know, after that, you really don't have any, you know, any challenges.


conceptually, like, food is a cornerstone to most community gatherings. Right?

You know? So when I'm

sitting at the table with my family, they're eating in this for this first couple of days,


And my kids are always hungry. They're big boys.

Like, they're always hungry, so I'm always feeding in my hand, and, like, I got to the point where I had to take my mouth shut,

because I would be feeding them,

and, like, I you know, they drop something. You just kinda eat it. You know what I'm saying? Like so

I had to, like, take my mouth shut,

You know? And then

everything smells good, and the body is just, like, crying out and saying, feed me.

You know? And, you just

I wanted to be in control.

I wanted to dictate things to my body. So a lot of it's mental.


And there are some physical challenges.

You know, you you you get headaches.

You deal with bouts of frustration.


can be irritable.

You know? And then all the while,

you know, you're losing weight.

Right? There are periods in which you go through acidosis. So,

you know,

you'll you'll you'll have these

these moments where you lose a ton of energy, you can't do anything,

you know, and then

you you make a turn,

and you have all the energy in the world.

It's it's it's a crazy experience what the body, you know, can do, man. I'm

increasingly more impressed,

right, with, you know, what what I think our abilities are.

You know? But it's,

it's it's you know, I wish I could say it's it was easy.

You know? But, like, I think sometimes it depends on, like, what do you want more? But I knew I wanted something for my family

and for myself,

right, and for the world.

Right? So I I really had to hold on to these things.

Now I I had to, you know, I I had to build accountability systems around me. You know, people that I said that I would reach out

to certain people and say, hey.

I need you to encourage me, because there's gonna come a point in time where I'm gonna feel like giving up. And I'm gonna say this is dumb. This is stupid.

You know? So that's another thing. You know?

So one is


is build accountability systems.

Right? The second thing is recognize that your body is going to change.

Right? You are at least for the 1st couple of days,

you know,

you're essentially addicted. Right? The the

the amount of ways in which we consume at the pace we consume,


you're a foodaholic.

Right? So,

you know, what do they say to the first step to, you know, to, any form of recovery is

you have to admit,

right, that this is a challenge.

Right? So it's it's,

you know, it's admission,

you know, that,

you know, food,

right, does and consumption does have power over us.

Right? It's a essentially, another form of of God, right, that exists within our belts.

You know? And

and then the third thing is, yo, enjoy the ride.

You know? Because on the other side,

you know how much clarity you receive when you're not bogging yourself down with with food? I I didn't realize how much time I spend eating

or preparing

to, to eat,

right, whether that is groceries

or trying to figure out what we're gonna eat, and, you know, I'll say this in before anybody feels this way,

Asking my wife to eat what what she wants to eat is one of the worst things ever.

What do you wanna eat? I don't know. What do you wanna eat?


how much time do you spend going back and forth on a fair what you want? Anyway, she's like, I I I just threw this in there for her because I know she'll listen later. You

know? But,


yes. You know? Enjoy the ride. But you got to skip that process because you weren't eating.

Russell Okung:

Yeah. 40 days. Right. Yeah. So then she's like, she no. She was still asking me, what should we eat?

I'm like, I don't know.

What do you eat?


I'm not participating.

Russell Okung:

I'm not doing go ahead. You guys figure it out. You know? So she still wants an answer, but

it's all good.


I try and honor questions I see in the live chat, and now we have 2 dueling live chats right now. Mhmm.

Russell Okung:

I'm not looking at live chat. I I apologize. I'm not sure. Good. I'm looking at it. Someone asked, like, what you


like, how you spent your days,

if you weren't eating, which is great. I mean, I think a lot of people do

build their days around

when they're having


Russell Okung:

Without a doubt. Without a doubt, man. Like,


were you,

were you still working out? Were you still lifting? I know that was a major part of your life.

Has always been a major part of your life. Like, how how were you spending the days?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. I would still you know? So in the mornings, I would get up. You know. So I'm getting up roughly, like, 5, sometimes 4:30 AM,

and I would try to spend some personal time just reflecting

reflecting on, like,

anything which I've had challenges on,

you know, in the past or, you know, maybe what I'm presently looking at.

Now then the kids wake up anywhere between, like, 6 and 6:30. But I no. Actually, I tried to, like

like, I wanted to work out, you know. So I for the 1st 20 days, I I was getting after it. So cardio,

no weight lifting,

and I would do it in moderation,

you know, walking.

I I, you know, in in some way sprinting and jogging. Like, I I kept a pretty active lifestyle.

Like, I knew I needed to sweat. Like, I could feel these toxins coming out of me. Right? So, like, I wanted to really, you know, circulate the blood flow. I I think it's,

you know, important to do those other things. And then the second thing is, like, you know, I know people assume that, hey. I I play in NFL, and I I don't work. Right? I don't have things that I'm I'm building.

You know? And that's a complete fallacy. Like

like, I'm still building.

I am still,

you know,

I still have a commitment,

right, to the world, right, to the family, to to generate income, and just to stack more sats. Like,

I I I'm still very responsible,

for that.

You know? So, like, there is no laying down all day and feeling sorry about myself, you know, because I'm not eating.

You know? And

I I so, really, I'll orient my days around,

you know, 1,

taking time to reflect.

Right? The and, obviously,

the the family component, which I've been hammering on,

you know, and and building,

you know. And then,

lastly, just, you know, there's a lot of prayer, man. There's a lot of

lot of looking inwardly, you know, at, you know, at nighttime. I'd

you know, I I didn't really sleep too well, you know, during these fast side. I don't know what it is, you know, that,

I think there are I mean, by scientific means,

you know, because you're not eating so much and burning so much food, you probably don't need as much rest.

You know? So I was very energized at night, and so I, you know, I I kept things going pretty well.

We stood for for the 1st 20 days. After that that first, we hit I remember I hit day 23 a night, and I was tanking bad.


At day 23?

Russell Okung:



Is there was that to be expected? Is that

Russell Okung:


for me, it's been a challenge in both both of my my my 2 long term classes. Day 23, I don't know what it is about that day.

It's always been very challenging.



I mean, I

I don't

obviously, this is not based in science since you survived.

But I've always heard the 3 minutes without air.

Was it I don't know. 3 weeks without water, 3 months without food.

So I guess you were drinking water the whole time. Yeah.

But I wonder if there's a connection there. 3 weeks

3 weeks without water, you die.

Yep, man. Oh, no. 3 days without it's it's it's 3 minutes, 3 days, and 3 weeks, I thought was the

the the law of threes that if you if you don't have food for 3 weeks, you can

that's when you start deteriorating.

Russell Okung:

I think yeah. I I I know some people who've done,

dry fast for 7 for 7 days.


No water even? No water.

Russell Okung:

No water. And, dude, I I mean, this is, like,

like, it's so hard right now to to get accurate information.


Yeah. That's true.

Russell Okung:

Fiat science is real.


Like, we we looked at you know, we're looking at the situation which happened with COVID, and, there are people on on both sides of the spectrum.

You know? But I I think something that I think both sides are acknowledging, those who are pro and and against,

is that we need to take a deep look,

a very deep look at, at how our medical system works.

And I would even say if if anybody

must be more research on this, like, go back, study,

Pasteur and Beauchamp.

Right? Study them.

Right? And, you know, Matt, like, there's you know, like, the the whole Tesla Edison debate. Right? Of course. You know? And it it's essentially a rivalry which has become a symbol, right, for a class between, like, innovation and, like, what the establishment is. So while, like, Tesla was known for its pioneering work in, like, alternating currency

and electricity systems,

you know, wireless

communication, you know, all these other kind of brown grape you know, brown excuse me, groundbreaking things.

You know, Edison was thought about, you know, more of an inventor who was very politically,


right, and and took a different approach in regards to

electrical distribution.

Right? And there's the same

type of concept,

right, built into the medical system


it's it's called, germ theory but versus, biological terrain,

and it's a debate between 2 men and, ultimately,

2 ideologies, you know,

you know, really known as the Pasteur versus Voltaire,



you know, I I without, you know, grossly simplifying it, Right? Pasteur was known as a person who,

believed in, you know, this kind of germ theory for disease,


he proposed it as,



external germs and microbes. They invade the body, ultimately causing, you know, various illnesses.

Right? And to combat these germs,

you know, we see what we see now is many pharmaceutical

interventions like drugs, vaccinations,

and and surgeries, etcetera etcetera.

Well, versus,

Beauchamp. Right? He held a different perspective suggesting

that there are these, you know, small

particles called, microsomas

and and cells, which ultimately change form and function.


And, you know,

can exist or become toxic,

right, in a unhealthy body terrain.

You know? So,

you know, that instead of seeing germs as,

you know, bad or evil, right, you see germs or bacteria as opportunistic.

Right? And it's the way in which the body,

right, can, you know, push out weaknesses or certain imbalances.

And so I'm not gonna sit here and argue

whether there is,

you know, for or against a traditional form of medicine.

You know? But I just wanna let people know,

right, that, you know, the that these debates that we've had, particularly when it comes to the to

the medical industry now, like,

these these things have been going on for 100 of years, if not 1000 of years.

Right? And I think we wanna be very

careful, right, in terms of our understanding

of where many of these ideologies come from,

you know, and and then ultimately what they end up growing into.

You know, so, you know, when I think about, you know, dry fasting, like, I I know people who've they they drive fasted for a week.

I, like, verse and I've seen I I thought the same thing. Like, nobody can live without water for 3 days.

You know? This is not it's not true. It's people can.

You know? So,

okay. I finally looked at the chat, the chat, the chat. You know, somebody made a mandible shout out. Yeah. I love mandible. It's a great book.

Also love mandibles. Yeah. It's good. It's a good book. Really good book.


But, yeah,

they were cut the diet


the Great was clarifying what I was saying, which was

3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food. Mhmm.

I've heard that many times in my life.


I mean, clear I mean,


I will say that I relate with

I relate with that it's incredibly difficult to do your own research in terms of

in terms of medical science and nutrition

and all the associated fields.

There's just so much ingrained bias everywhere,

and it's it's hard to

to dig through that and and

and come to your own conclusions, but it's imperative that people do.

Russell Okung:

Yes. Yes, man. And then

it's it's actually something I wanna ask you that I'm really trying to work through.

You know, and, you would have much more of a an understanding of the technical components.


just think about, and I'm I'm bringing this up based on what you're saying. So trust me, I have somewhere I'm going with this.

But, like, this whole thing about ordinals, I think it's very interesting.


Like Okay.

Russell Okung:


what's your perspective,

right, in terms of, like,

where, like, a lot of the pushback from Ordinal's is this is coming from? Like, I'm I'm just trying to understand it. Right? So I'm I'm as much I have to learn about it, right, but, you know, it's my understanding that, like, I thought Bitcoin is want the free market to work. Right? And they're all for,

you know, you know, getting things out into the competitive marketplace.

Right? So I, like, I'm just trying to, like, work through that, and, like, maybe because I haven't been in somebody's rooms,

you know, but, like, I I I heard the podcast the party did with with that,

like, the

yeah. I heard that. I listened to it.

You know?

And you seem to be very balanced, right, in your perspective. I don't know if that's if that's where you still stand, you know, but, like, I'm just kinda curious to know, like, after that conversation, like, where has your mind been at? Seal dispatch 91,


with Casey Rod Armour,

the creator of ordinals.

I mean, it's really interesting because

Casey came up with it, but Casey's,

kind of,

at least, taken a step back publicly from the project.

Russell Okung:




partially because of, like, who it's been captured by. And I think that's where a lot of people have issues.

Ordinals is a little bit interesting because

first of all, I did not think we were gonna be talking about this, today. No. Me neither. Me neither. But I was just like I I I So You have a great perspective. You know? Fair enough. I mean, it's it's it's interesting because it's really 2 separate things. Right? So you have something called inscriptions,

where you can encode

whatever data you want to encode into the Bitcoin blockchain.

If we're correct about Bitcoin,

the Bitcoin blockchain will outlive us all.


I think there is merit.

Maybe merit's the wrong word, but there is data that people are gonna wanna inscribe in in this ledger that lasts forever Mhmm. That they think has value.

And and there's a free market that dictates whether or not they can inscribe that in the ledger, and that's the fee market. And if they're willing to pay, the Bitcoin required for the transaction fee

to inscribe that data,

then there's nothing we can do to stop it. Okay. That's the beauty of Bitcoin. Right? It's,

it can be used without permission. There's no gatekeepers. There's no central authority.

And as a result, people can inscribe data on the chain.


is this

separate theory


Casey came up with,

to basically

denote ownership of the different inscriptions,

and and and as a result, be able to transfer ownership of the different inscriptions.

Mhmm. He calls it ordinal theory. It does not exist on chain. It does it's not enforced by the Bitcoin protocol.

It's completely separate of Bitcoin itself.

It is this

essentially, this numbering scheme that they that they came up with and agreed with in terms of who owns which inscription.



in the way Bitcoin works,

you can inscribe that data on chain, but you can't transfer ownership of that data. Everyone has access to that data. Okay. So my issues mostly stem from people trying to sell ownership

of different

data objects. I mean, most common case is NFTs,

or, like, some kind of artwork.

And they sell it via this ordinal mechanism, and I just don't think there's actually any ownership transfer.

And I think that a lot of people do it in in in scammy ways in terms of,

trying to sell someone an item that really can't be transferred ownership wise.

Russell Okung:



So it's mostly my assume, like, mostly stems from the promoters,

and who has kind of gravitated towards it.

But I I do think,

I think there's some novel uses for inscriptions that we kind of haven't really seen yet, because it's mostly been focused on,

dumping garbage on people. And

that is just the reality that you have to kinda come to grips with if you're involved in the greater freedom tech movement in general,

which is

that when you have tools that promote freedom,

you will find a lot of like minded individuals that care about individual freedom, but you'll also find a lot of malicious actors who

will take advantage of the freedom that provides

to try and take advantage of other people.

Mhmm. And it's just the unfortunate reality. Like, that is just the reality you have to live in, and you kinda have to take the bad with the good.

Otherwise, you won't get the good part, and I think the good part massively outweighs the bad part. And, I mean, we see this with Bitcoin too.

I I we've heard it many times in the past. Bitcoin has kind of grown up past this, but I expect it to happen many times in the future as Bitcoin gets

adopted, which is you pick a particular individual or group,

and they're using Bitcoin for something that you disagree with or might be illegal,

and you try and paint a large swath on all Bitcoin users. And you say,

if this terrorist group is using this money,

that it's not freedom money, it's terrorist money. But at the end of the day, freedom money can be used by anybody without permission.

And the overwhelming majority of people are using it,

to benefit their lives and are using it in a

objectively moral way or I don't I I don't even know if there's such a thing as objectively moral, but,

that are using it in a a positive way and a force for good.

But some bad actors will still use it. Right? And, maybe that ratio is

is skewed

very differently in the inscriptions and ordinals world where

the majority of early adoption has at least been and maybe that's the key. Maybe the key is with these tools. A lot of times, the early adoption is

by malicious actors.

You don't really see the positive adoption until later on.

Russell Okung:

Right. Right. And I and I just kinda wanna kinda stand on this so, you know, maybe people can understand where I where I what I think about it.

Yeah. It is. Like, I want to see the space grow. And I'd say the space Bitcoin grow.

Right? So I think this involves less purity tests,

right, less of the infighting,

right, and more education and

and evangelism even if it's on different forms.

Right? And I think we need more leadership in this area. Right? And, ultimately, fasting has helped open my eyes right to this reality.

And, like, I come from the sports world. Right? So I've had exposure, you know, to a world of collectibles.

I understand. Right? Like, you know, people like these inscriptions or oronyms and they're popular,

And I get it. It's triggering for, you know, many people who are purist,

right, or consider themselves purist.

But I'm actually excited

about about people working on Bitcoin. I because I I think free markets ultimately end up winning,

and I think there's an opportunity to start trying to capture,

you know, what I think has always been a wasted market share and bring people more kind of in, right, in different ways.

And even going back to, like, what I think about, you know, what I was saying about Pasteur and Beauchamp in these two lines of thinking.

Like, let's just consider, like, the hieroglyphs,

right, in in Egypt on in the pyramids.

Right? The hieroglyphs were seen as a system of writing,

right, or using pictorial symbols to represent

words, sounds, or or ideas.

Right? And,

they were also

meant to serve as a a documentation of historical events,

whether it's religious beliefs or, you know, people's way of life.


And hardware was we're a permanent

and distributed ledger.


And I see the Bitcoin blockchain working the same way.

It's it's decentralized

and mutable ledger.

Right? So when a person like Beauchamp and all his ideas

are essentially erased

from history,

And, like, can you imagine

his ideas living on top of

literally the best, you know, blockchain blockchain in the world?

And can you imagine an a host or a network of computers

distributed across the world

to verify

what has transpired and happened in chronological order.

Right? And I think that's the beauty

of something else Bitcoin can offer,

right, is it is this information storage

that can withstand the test of time and preserve valuable data for future generations,

our libraries.

Right? And I say us, I mean, people like you and me, Matt, who love this space.

The blockchain will be our libraries.

Right? The these things will ex if if we believe bit Bitcoin is what it people say it is,


we we gotta put our our hieroglyphics on the wall.

You know? So I don't actually know what that looks like, you know, specifically for, you know, for me, you know, but I think it's worth some some consideration.

I do think people should think about it. Yeah.


We have we have similar perspectives there. I mean, I I tend to agree. That's why I say,

I just I don't think the positive use cases have really been explored much. It's mostly

the at

at this current

early stage of adoption, it's been mostly,

malicious actors in my opinion,

and that's my read. And I would say

just as a a pushback

in terms of what you know,

this idea of big tents and and being more welcoming and less purity tests. I mean, the purity tests are

can be very infuriating at times. I I would say I think that is,

that is larger than Bitcoin. It's part of this Internet culture that has Mhmm.

Developed where, you know, it's not a neighbor talking to a neighbor or someone shaking someone else's hand and looking them in the eye.

It's a stranger holding


high standard that they're not even holding themselves to to some stranger on the Internet Yep. And getting engagement points off of that, and it's very common.

But if we're moving to a world with more FreedomTech and more freedom and more independence and more free markets and less


self centralized corrupt governance,

then we're also going back to a world where people need to

self police more

and and operate in high integrity


and and

and stand up and say something if they think something's unfair. And I think,


know, maybe the pendulum has swung a little bit in terms of,

the quote, unquote crypto industry and the the the the industry at large, you know, maybe bigger than Bitcoin.

But for the overwhelming history of of Bitcoin and then crypto,

it's actually

been the opposite.

Most of the time, anyone that has any kind of platform

or any kind of audience or any kind of voice or influence in the space has tend to turn a blind eye,


when malicious actors,

fleece naive new users.


And and it's like a you scratch my back, I scratch your back, and we all make a lot of money, and the average person gets fucked.

And I I think, if anything,

there's there's probably a shortage of

of of larger voices

that are that are willing to

to call out and and

and keep honest,

other large voices in this space that that tend to focus on trying to take advantage of people.

And that's kind of the balancing act to try and find.

It's something that

that I take quite seriously,

because I like to focus on things that other people aren't doing,

to make my short time on this world worth it. But,

yeah, I I you know, like, if if

if you believe in free markets

if you if you believe in free markets, then, you know, you you

objectively do not believe in something like the SEC deciding on what people can invest in. Oh, thanks.

Right. So then the alternative


is is trying to provide quality information to people so that they can make an educated decision on their own.

And I think there's a

the way the incentives are set up,

the way incentives in general are set up in terms of making money in this space,

it it tends to be that that that people are aren't willing to put their own

neck on the line to to try and call out, you know, outright scams and frauds, and and we need more people doing that. And that's the balance, kinda.

Russell Okung:

That makes sense. I I wonder if that's sort of sort of calling, you know, some of these concepts out.


there's a way to,

how do I frame this? Maybe there's a way, you know,

maybe the best way to call them out is to build something better.

Yeah. Right?

Because it's when I think about this sort of this free market of,

you know,

of of

it's it's it's a free market of ideas, right, and ideology as well. Right? Like, we are competing for the minds of people. Right.

And I I think that's something that we need to pay attention to is,

you know,



players and, you know, what people frame as centralized systems.

They have a very large market share, you know, and and and the the bandwidth

of most of the, most people. Right? So, like, we have to be much more crafty,


and intelligent

about how we wanna deliver things.

I've seen I've actually seen beautiful things being built. Right.

But they they can't get any liquidity. They can't get anybody to pay attention to their project. Right? So I just I think we need to think much more,

you know,

creatively about some of these problems, and I think

that's where the leadership comes from. That's what I've seen from you, Matt. When you brought Casey on, I I like, I didn't know who else was I gonna listen to. Right? I'm gonna listen to you because I know

that you're gonna give him the right platform to say what he needs to say.

Right? And I'm not saying you need to agree with him. Right? But your delivery and your approach to it, it wasn't, hey. This is this is dumb. This is against no. It's attack. No. It was,

say, what did you say? You pushed back, you know, where you needed to. Right? But, ultimately, the free market's gonna decide what it what it needs to decide.

And I think the issue is so many Bitcoins forget how much they know, and then they assume everyone else gets it. Right. But most people are far from getting it.

Right? And they forget about the mantra in which you say every day. Actually, I don't know if you still say it every day. Right? Stay humble.



Russell Okung:

But, yeah, I was gonna say, stay humble.

Stay humble. That's the mantra. Stay humble.


Yeah. I I mean, I stopped I did it 279

days in a row, and then I got, frustrated with Twitter's new policies. And I,

decided I don't wanna support the platform anymore with the daily mantra.

Russell Okung:

Well, I love it.


I still live it every day. I'll tell you that much, and I hope other people do as well.

And it's not me saying that I am humble. It's me reminding myself that I need to stay humble,

to the haters out there who say that I'm not humble. I'm aware. I'm working on it.

Russell Okung:

I, takes

different forms, man. It takes different forms.


But, Ross, like, the other I know, like, our time is coming close here, but I just a couple more things.

You know, the other balance is that,

like, I think that freedom I think people I think humanity trends to freedom

long term. I think I think I think people will trend to freedom tech

naturally when they realize the need for it.

But the way I kinda look at it is

another balancing act is that

the natural tendency is is is to get burned and touch the stove and feel pain,

and that's when you realize the need, and this is when this kind of tech gets adopted.

And if there's ways for us to avoid that process

and and avoid that pain

before the benefits,

that is obviously advantageous. Like, I I I would prefer a world where less people feel pain

in order to to reach a better place.

And I I think that's kind of

that's what I try and balance with

almost this idea of

there's almost like this

there's this undercurrent within

specifically the Bitcoin community that is can be quite per paternalistic,

where it's like,

where instead of letting your child learn on his own,


do this, and then when they ask you why, you say because I say so,

which I think is can be counterintuitive

and and not very helpful. And and I try and,

I don't know, be as productive as possible in those constraints.

On the positive side, in terms of tools,

and solutions, have,

it would it would be behoove me to,

I don't even know if I use that phrase right. I don't know. Whatever.

It would,

I need to bring up with you before we end.

Have are you familiar at all with with Noster?

Russell Okung:

Dude, I I it's been across my dashboard, but, like, I I haven't really, like, dove into it really deep. Like, I know, who are these guys? I just got their,

I got their note, man. I wanted to support them.

You know, and I I'm not I'm not affiliated. I don't have I'm not invested with this company at all, but shout out to Start9.

You know that they're,

I think they're they're they're they're doing some good work. I think a lot of people are doing good work. You know? But that was, like, the first time I saw, like, Noster on something.

So, like, I don't even know, like, how to get set up. I don't

there's such a disparity in regards to the information,

you know, onboarding I don't conceptually get I I you know, but, you know, one thing I do is I love it's open source.

I love,

that there is

there are ways to move users seamlessly

from, you know,

I guess, app to app.

Right? And that it's gonna open a realm of new


But, like, I'm looking to learn more.



you're an iPhone. Right?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. Well, both. I'm I'm on I'm on multiple things. Well

As I've learned from you, on your your privacy website. There you go.


Well, an iPhone,

if you go to primal.net/downloads,

they have an iPhone test flight of their nostril app.

I think that's a good place to start. You just you basically just install the app and then follow the steps,

to create a key.

Similar to Bitcoin, you get a private key.

Everyone knows you buy the public key. Mhmm.


yeah, I mean, Nasr is this, like, amazing interoperable

communication protocol

that's permissionless,

similar to Bitcoin in that way, that's completely open source that people can build on top of so apps can communicate with each other

using the standard.

It can be used for many, many different things.

I mean, I I think a lot of the ways nostril will be used, we can't really even comprehend yet.


humans love social media, so one of the major first use cases of it

is essentially creating an interoperable competitor

to Twitter, to Instagram, to TikTok, to Reddit,

all using the same standard, but how they render

different posts and whatnot are are are are based on the social media they're competing with.

So what does that mean? That means that means that we can have a broadcast medium. We can have a social media

that is not controlled by an individual company, that cannot be pressured by governments,

that cannot force you to do identity verification to have reach,

that has Bitcoin payments directly built in so that you can get payments directly,

without a middleman and freedom money.

So the left hand

part of of of our screen right now is this Noster enabled,

live chat,

which you can get at sylldispatch.com/stream.

It uses this,

service called zap.stream.

But why do I bring this up? I bring this up because,

the guy who who created the 2 guys who created it or at least led the creation of zap.stream,

Kieran and Carnage,

basically had this open protocol,

and they were able to build out this service that we're using live on air right now,

in a matter of days because they didn't require permission from anyone,


it's censorship resistance by default,

and it's open.

And, the power that that can bring is is

is pretty substantial. So as much as I complain about Elon's policies, as much as I complain about,

the past regime's policies when when they were in charge of Twitter and all the shadow bans that they did,

and now the shadow bans that Elon's doing on anyone who doesn't verify their identity.

I do it from a place of optimism and a place of hope because the reason I care that Twitter is making these policies is because I've always thought of Twitter as a platform that even though centralized,

and even though it has its own trade offs and issues,

a platform


that promotes freedom, that promotes new thought, that promotes open discussion,

and that is waning.

But, fortunately, we do have

a a alternative in Nostr, and, it's just it's it's very early days of Nostr. It's just been incredibly impressive watching it get built out by open source contributors around the world. The dev mind share is is absolutely crazy.

So I would just suggest you check it out. No pressure. I think,

but I I I do think that,

I do think that is the future.

Russell Okung:

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I would just say any any of the devs who are working on Monster, like,

yo, hit me up. My DMs are open. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna learn more about, like, how it works, like, what can be done.

You know? And, ultimately, like, how I can help this this area grow.

Yeah. So I'm down to do a lot more thinking, you know, around there, and,

like, that that's that's the that's what I love about Bitcoin. You know? It is Yep. No. It did, like no. Like, it's it's all proof of work. You know? Like, if you can show me what you're working on, like, let's let's go. Right? Like, I am I wanna see this industry move ahead.

I really do. And I and I think

it sounds like to me based on what you're saying,


that, like, technologies

like Noster

are gonna be

pivotal, right, to maintaining some form of freedom of of speech,


which we know is ultimately freedom of thought. Yeah. I think it's just really complimentary with Bitcoin. Right?

Where where where Bitcoin is the money protocol and Nasr is the speech protocol,

and you need both for free society.

And, I mean, there's plenty of situations where wallets and whatnot might,

like Bitcoin wallets might communicate with each other with and stuff, and you'll you'll see a lot of cross pollination


and and the 2 tech technologies kind of working together to

to both be more robust on their own.

Mhmm. It's really fucking cool. I mean, talking about proof of work before we wrap,

you have this website, oco Okun fast dot com. Yeah.

What's your plan with that? What's your plan going forward? You know, what's what's next for us?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. So,

I follow my one of my cases flipped out in the background.

Yeah. So, like, you know, just so people know, a lot of, you know,

like, I didn't really plan on being back on social for a long time. Right. I just wanted to come back on by due to 48 fast and say, yo. Like, I did this, you know. This is why I did it.

I just, you know, enjoy, you know, this process whether you want to include yourself or not. Right? It's there so people can see the journey.

You know, but I've been getting so much,

you know, feedback.

Right? And so a lot of people who are very similar to me saying, look. I got kids,

or I'm trying to make these lifestyle changes. I'm struggling.

You know, I or saying,

I've been to all these doctors. I've I've tried all these medicines, and nothing's working.

And and they're wanting to engage.

You know? And it's been

I didn't know what I that what I was doing would be an ultimate gift.

You know? So proof of work. Right? And my friend I'm gonna shout him out here. I can't say his name, but

he always tells me,

mimic and mine the Bitcoin network.

Right? So if you can take these concepts in Bitcoin,

right, and attempt to live them out,

we both know that this technology works.

Right? And if humans can continue to align themselves,


with what I'm gonna say is a very archaic technology,

you know, that things could be better. So, you know, when I when I created OkunFast,

right, very simply, it was to do that just that. It's here's proof of work.

Right? I am going to prove to you that day day after day, I am putting this level of discipline in.

You know? So,

you know, I've been thinking about what's next, and, you know, we've been talking about, you know, maybe doing

maybe leading a 21 day Bitcoin or fast.

You know? Like, I know with the having's coming up next year, maybe that might be something to consider.

You know? Right. Because, you know, for people who are saying, hey. Like, I wanna fast, you know, 3, 7, 10, you know, 14, you know, 21, whatever.

Right? Maybe just creating a space for them to do it, you know, do it with me.

You know? So, I'm I'm doing a lot of thinking, you know, through that and

trying to ensure that, you know, people have their the proper resources, you know, as best as I can.

You know? And,

man, I'd really be excited,

you know, to have, you know, a lot of, you know, people who are interested,

you know, in in taking

a very challenging

but worthwhile step in life, you know, to do it with us.


That's amazing.

21 days so so we don't hit the dreaded 23rd day.

Yeah. For sure.

Make make it easy on us.

Really amazing conversation. Special conversation, Russ.

Thank you for joining us.

It's really impressive.

You're really impressive. You're an inspiration.

Yeah. Just as honor and privilege,

Massive love to you and your family. Hope to see you guys in person sometime soon. It's been way, way, way too long. Too long. Too long.

And just thank you for joining us. Do you have any final thoughts

for the freaks before we wrap?

Russell Okung:

Yeah. I just wanna say,

man, you guys are have been awesome.

You know? Keep keep up. This is good work. You know? I think

I'm excited about the future. I'm excited about

what I think humans, people are capable of, particularly in a world where

nothing artificial intelligence is very prevalent, you know, and,

you know, you know, everybody's on automation

and right? Like,

I think

the most powerful form of technology,

you know, are humans,

and we are

we are the

we we have this divine code embedded within us.

So that means the possibilities are endless.

We need to build more things like Macmaster. We need we we are very capable,

you know, of doing much more than we we could ever dream of and achieve. So

I'd like to thank the freaks.

Thanks for your support, you know, and I look forward to doing much more,

in this in the in the Bitcoin industry.

I'm very excited about it. So thank you, Matt. Thanks for having me on.


Appreciate you, Russ. Much love.

Appreciate you freaks.

Stay humble, stack sets.