June 1, 2023

CD104: Bitcoin 2023 Debrief with Christian Keroles

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Citadel Dispatch

support dispatch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://citadeldispatch.com/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠
BLOCK: 792286
PRICE: 3695 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Bitcoin 2023 Review, Looking Forward to Bitcoin 2024 in Nashville

CK on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ck_SNARKs
Bitcoin Conference on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheBitcoinConf

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(00:01:13) Supporting Dispatch through donations and podcasting apps

(00:07:07) Positive feedback and improvements at the Bitcoin conference

(00:18:38) The importance and execution of the News Desk

(00:29:00) The location and significance of the Open Source Stage

(00:37:32) Disappointment with the number of tickets given away for the contributor program

(00:38:09) Expanding the open source ticket program to all events

(00:38:37) The presence of Nostr projects at the event

(01:12:57) The challenges of making obvious recommendations

(01:14:14) Managing appearance and feedback on social media

(01:16:19) Responsibility and accountability

(01:50:23) Bitcoin events in Nashville

(01:51:15) Benefits of living in Nashville

(01:52:52) Bitcoin conference in Nashville


01:13 - Supporting Dispatch through donations and podcasting apps

07:07 - Positive feedback and improvements at the Bitcoin conference

18:38 - The importance and execution of the News Desk

29:00 - The location and significance of the Open Source Stage

37:32 - Disappointment with the number of tickets given away for the contributor program

38:09 - Expanding the open source ticket program to all events

38:37 - The presence of Nostr projects at the event

01:12:57 - The challenges of making obvious recommendations

01:14:14 - Managing appearance and feedback on social media

01:16:19 - Responsibility and accountability

01:50:23 - Bitcoin events in Nashville

01:51:15 - Benefits of living in Nashville

01:52:52 - Bitcoin conference in Nashville


I already smashed that one then.


What is up, freaks?

Happy Bitcoin. What day is it, c k? Happy Bitcoin Wednesday.

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With all that said, we have,

our friend, CK joining for a second time. I know you guys all loved

our previous rep. When was our previous rep, CK?

I don't know. Like, 3 months ago, 2 months ago. There you go. And, since then, we've had Bitcoin 2023 in Miami.

CK is one of the leads at Bitcoin Magazine,

who runs the Bitcoin Magazine runs the conference, this massive party that happens has happened in Miami for the last,

3 years.

Now coming to Nashville? Now coming to Nashville. Right we're right now, we're in Nashville. We are. We're at Bitcoin Park at at the studio. So thank you. The in person rips are always better, so thank you for that.

Yeah. The camera's over there. Yep.

But I'm over here, so I don't know. We're working on it. We're working on our camera angles over here at dispatch.


I wasn't expecting me on camera. Otherwise, we were would've worn more Bitcoin Magazine swag. There you go. Well, we got the wonderful magazine on the on the counter. Yeah. Now y'all know what I wear when I, just work.


Yeah. CK has been working from the park today.

But the idea of the show was actually, CK approached me with the idea of the show.

We had

or is it public how many people came to the event?


I mean, like, the word on the street is, like, 15,000.


Okay. So we had we had, like, 15,000 people in Miami. They came down for Bitcoin 2023.

There was a bunch of feedback,



all sorts of in between after the event of that size that makes sense.

And CK wanted to address

everything and have just, like, a proper debrief of of the conference, and, he thought dispatch was a great,

venue for that because we have this wonderful interactive live chat where you guys can participate and and put any questions or comments or whatever whatever you want answered

or, you know, whatever you wanna yell, you can just put right in the comments,

and and we can address.


Let's do it. Yeah. That sound? Is that a good Sounds good. You know, I thought it was an amazing event.

You know, every single year,

we learn something new, but our goal is to bring Bitcoiners together. You know,

we define Bitcoiners and Bitcoin company as people who are using Bitcoin, interested in Bitcoin, you know, and we do a lot of work to reach as many people as possible and, you know, try to have something for everyone. We don't always 100% succeed at that, but I think we have a pretty good thing going here. And, you know,

we gotten a tremendous amount of encouragement,

gotten some good feedback, and I got got constructive

feedback, you know, got a lot of yelling too. So kinda got a whole bunch of different stuff. So,

ultimately, you know, when it comes to what Bitcoin Magazine does, you know, we're a culture company.

You know, we,

you know, we've leaned on plebs a lot to, you know, get us to where we are.

And, you know, I wanna have a conversation with the plebs about the event. You know, wanna talk about what we're doing in Amsterdam and Nashville. And,

you know, ultimately, you know, if there's time, get bullish.

We got 2 hours set here, but we'll see we'll see, how much time we have for, you know, talking about some other stuff.



So, I mean, it seems like people are are coming in right now, and they're joining us. And we don't have any,

don't be shy, freaks. Feel free to put any questions or comments you have in the live chat. I didn't realize that the freaks were shy.

Yeah. No time. Sometimes they're shy middle of the day, Wednesday, long week.

But, I mean, where do you wanna start?

And then if I'll I'll watch the live chat for us and if and I mean, like comes up.



one of the criticisms that I think people give the conference, you know, and, you know, it feels weird to start with criticisms because there's just so much, like, positivity. Do you wanna start with the positivity? I don't know. Like, I'm happy to talk, you know, anything Let's start with the positivity.

I mean, like, Matt, you you've been here since 2019. You know, you've kind of seen, how the sausage is made since 2021.

You know, I, you know, I thought this year was was awesome. It was really, really well executed.

You know, in terms of, like, in 2021,

we had a big line problem,

and, you know, that kind of was, like, a black eye for Big line problem. Yeah. It was painful. And Well, just just so we I mean, you know, in terms of, like, the like, we are able to put together, like, this exceptional product that can easily serve, you know, the scale of people that we're we're able to bring to the event.

And it took a lot of iterations to get there. And, you know, being on the inside, actually putting it on, like, one, that's that's huge and that's so important too. Like, the mission that we're trying to do is, 1, like, create a productive environment for people to do Bitcoin as Ron DeSantis

says, and, you know, move this mission forward.

You know, you can't have that with with bad you know, with long lines. You can't have that with bad, you know, bad security.

You can't have that without having, like, a good experience for VIPs, and you can't have that without having a good experience for, you know, Bitcoiners and Bitcoin businesses and entrepreneurs. So, you know, all that stuff is just, like, for me, you know, I thought it was we killed it on that front, for sure, and it made a good experience for for Bitcoiners. Yeah. I mean, so to pull it back, just for some context on what CK said,


in 2019,

Bitcoin Magazine

pre 2019, Bitcoin Magazine kind of lost its way. There was a lot of there was well, there's a lot of I don't I don't think that that's even fair characterization. Okay. Pre pre pre 2019,

like, the idea of, like, Bitcoin only and Bitcoin maximum seems like fudgeable. You know, you can have whatever framing you want, but Sure. Pre 2019,

it wasn't a Bitcoin first company.


It was it there you were running Ethereum conferences. You were covering all this stuff. The first event I ever worked was distributed 2018, which is very much a multi it was a multi coin company. The hottest stage was the DeFi stage. Right. And then as a,



Bitcoiner, I watched as as the company started

getting back to basics and started focusing on on Bitcoin much more and and making it a clear focus of the company. And in 2019, you launched a flagship conference, Bitcoin 2019 in San Francisco.

I think there was, like, 25100 people there.

I participated on stage, and I participated. We had a rabbit hole recap to end it all off,

and I told everyone to buy the top at at 13 k because that was actually

despite common belief, Bitcoin doesn't always dump during the Bitcoin conference. Bitcoin 2019, it pumped like a motherfucker.

Like, every time every time a panel ended,

the price would go up on the screen and it'd be, like, another $800 up. It was like It was euphoria. It was event start, and 800 was a big deal at that time. But anyway,

so 2019, I was a major participant in it. I got to know your team really well.


you guys were gonna go even bigger.

Then the lockdowns happened, like, 3 weeks before the conference,

which is absolutely devastating.

You guys cut down on your team significantly.

And then fall 2020,

I came in. You asked me as a friend. We were already pretty close friends at that point. You asked me as a friend. You're like, Matt, I would love your help at Bitcoin Magazine. I came in as a consultant, like, 10 people in the company, something like that.

We sprinted and ran the 2021


in Miami,

and that was, like, 13,000 people, and that's where Linegate happened. And and there was all different sorts of execution

situations. But, I mean, it was 13,000 people 2,000, 13,000. During COVID. No one loves excuses, but 13,000 people during COVID.

No masks.

No vax policy.

Everyone thought that we were crazy running a 13,000 person event, and there were some hiccups along the way.

I mean, it was a huge success too, but, you know, we all you always learn. And the team blossomed from, like, that that 5 month period, it went from, like, 10 people to, like, 40 people, 50 people. And then by the 2022 event,

the the org was at, like, a 100 people.

And then the 2022 event was over 20,000 people. It was, like, 24,000 people or something like that. It was insane. Yeah. And then

Amsterdam happened.

Mhmm. Amsterdam was a a great party and just a great event.

Great partners in Amsterdam.

And then we had 2023.

We come into 2023,

First, like, bear market event.

Yeah. And the vibe Bear market, like, big Bitcoin conference. Vibes were were still very high.

You know, 15,000 people.


execution in terms of, like, upside. Like, the lines were great. The lines were non existent. Registration was easy. Security was easy. The event was like the floor plan of the event was nice and condensed.

You know, it was the 2nd time in that conference center. Like, I felt like everything was more,


accessible, and it felt like they were in the right place. Like, things were in the right place. It it made sense. We learned the conference hall. Like, we people don't get, like we don't get that many iterations, so it's kinda hard to, like, be like, oh, yeah. Having the deep all the way in the back was a bad idea. I mean, it was people were, like, measuring their steps in 2022. It's like, I'm insane. You had to, like, run a marathon every day.


So that part I mean, that was amazing. And people, I just I wanna hone in on this. And this is why I wanted to go through that full timeline. Yeah. It's because people don't realize, first of all, how small the team is.

Because even though the org is, like, a 100, like, the actual conference specific, even though everyone ends up helping on the conference. Mhmm. It's, like, 40, 50 people. Right? Yeah. I mean, it's actually a little bit smaller. So we have, 80 people,

full time, and then the conference team's, like, 35 people. Right. So, like, I mean, I don't do math live on airfreaks. You know this. But, like, just divide 15,000

divided by 35, and that's insane Yeah. In terms of heads organizing versus attendees.

And just

there's just so many moving parts. Like, people don't understand,

you you said it, how the sausage is made. Like, it is just fucking insane. And,

you the team fucking crushed it.


Yeah. Yeah. At throwing an event 100%. At throwing the Bitcoin conference, I think 100%.


You know, I I think, like, you know, the Bitcoin industry and the Bitcoin ecosystem,


it it it has such an incredible ecosystem

of organizers already, and it has, like, one of the best

industry events of all industries right now. Like, if you kinda compare the Bitcoin conference to money 2020


you know, Web Summit, a lot of these other events, like,

in a very short amount of time, like, Bitcoin has that too. You know? And

I think it that's a a great element of,


of, like, what is attracting people to Bitcoin and and showing people what, like, Bitcoin has to offer. Yeah. I mean, I would say I I, like, I align pretty hard with Bailey on this in that if you've ever been to,

you know, like, a quote, unquote, like, work conference or something,

It's not really a comparison to the Bitcoin conference. The Bitcoin conference is more of a comparison to, like, a music festival or something like that.


It does I mean,

I've never been to Money 2020, but I've been to other

industry specific conference events. Right? And it's mostly just a glorified,

like, expo hall or just, like,

a bunch of booths trying to get your email address. Mhmm.

So it's definitely it takes the vibe a a whole different level, and,


the team just does a really good job capturing that. Yeah. I mean, and I think, like, frankly, like, what we so, you know,

in 2019, when we went from a, like, a crypto company to we, like, hey, we're embracing Bitcoin only. Like, this is the path forward.

Like, we were pretty much the first company to do that. You know, I think it was us and Unchained where Unchained You might be the only company that's ever transitioned. I mean, Unchained, they used to have ETH. At launch, they kind of did, but they never I don't even think they offered it as a product. Sure. Yeah.


Yeah. I mean, I don't know. But regardless And, like, a bunch of Bitcoin only companies bloomed

after that and, like, in that era,

but I don't know of any that really I mean, how long has Bitcoin Magazine existed?


So 20,


is when the first,


magazine was printed. So Yeah. So, like, early Bitcoin 2014 is, like, the first 22. Like, shit coins barely even existed. Mhmm. Then, like, all the craziness, ICO mania,

ETH launches, ICO mania, all the bullshit, and then back to Bitcoin. I don't know of any other like, Coinbase has never done that. You know, Kraken has never done that. Like, there are very few companies. And I I kind of remember this vividly because on the podcast, if you go back, one of the things I love about rabbit hole recap is like a time capsule.

And when Bitcoin Magazine announced they were doing this, I was like, this is it, guys. Like, all these companies, they're all gonna they're all gonna pivot. Like, that was a completely wrong call. It just didn't happen. It's just us.

But I was like, it's not even ideological. It's, like, good for business. Like, it it it changed business, though. Like, yeah. For Bitcoin Magazine, a 100% was, but that just that theory didn't play out really. I didn't really see many I think we're just still early. I I think the pivot is not gonna be necessarily


crypto business pivoting to Bitcoin, although Bitcoin Magazine is trying to to help make that happen and and start that conversation.

But I think it's just gonna be, like, energy companies and finance companies. But on long enough time, so every company is a Bitcoin company. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. Like, what are you gonna see, you know, we're gonna see a 1,000 micro strategies, you know, before this is all done. But,


Like, I tell people that on the 1031 side,

they're like, how can you have a venture fund that's just focused on Bitcoin? I mean, Nick Carter's famously said, like, you can't deploy

significant money into Bitcoin only strategy.

And it's, like, literally,

the world is our oyster. Every company is a Bitcoin company. It's just how long are you willing to to wait for that to play out? Yeah. I mean, even the shitcoin companies are Bitcoin companies now as of, like, 3 months ago. So,

yeah, I I The bear markets tend to do that. The real question is who stays a Bitcoin company in the in the coming bull market. You see that with influencers and businesses. Right? Everyone gets wrecked in the bear,

and they pretend they're Bitcoiners and then

Yeah. I mean they go back to shit coins. I don't even know how we got into this, but yeah. I mean So what else is positive about the event? I really I thought I

I remember when the news desk was just a crazy little idea Mhmm. In the head. It was like, okay. College game day,

but during the Bitcoin conference Mhmm.

I think the execution of the news desk was the best execution that we've seen

in all the events. Like, the iteration has kind of happened

over time, and,

it was very professional.


Yeah. I mean, the news desk is is awesome. It's it's one of my favorite things. And, you know, I think what people

a lot of people, have criticism on, like, what necessarily happens on stage.

And, you know, obviously, like, we wanna have entertaining moments on stage.

There's a lot of moments on stage that we can manufacture. There's a lot of moments on stage that we can't manufacture. Right? Like, people were like, oh, wow. That Robert,

Kennedy thing was incredible. You know? When he stepped on stage at in that moment, like, we had no idea if that was gonna be a huge massive flop or if he was gonna, like, nail it. Like, we had I wanna talk to whoever wrote his policy. But,

but you know what I'm saying is He's talking to the right people, whoever he's talking. The the best thing about the news desk is that whatever happens on stage,

like, Bitcoin Magazine from an editorial perspective can, like, kind of lead a conversation about after it. Well, one of the things I think is kinda cool. Like, love I love that element is But the news desk is treated almost like another stage. Yeah. And that's how it's main stage. It's a virtual main stage. But that's also something that I think a lot of us miss if you go to the event. Right? Because,


I think it's very commonly

understood by people who have been to events,

that the best part of every event is just meeting people

and having beers with Bitcoiners and shaking hands and giving hugs and just

all these Internet friends and, like, people you know through the Internet, just like actually meeting them in meet space and having physical connections is to me has always been the most valuable part. But then if you're not at the event,

your sole focus on that event is what is being sent through that stream Mhmm. Which is main stage,

the Nakamoto stage plus the news desk. Mhmm. And so you have a complete if you're not there, you have a completely different perspective than some. Because first of all, if you're on if you're at the event, you have no idea what's going on the news desk. Even if you're standing in front of the news desk, like, the mics aren't set to


They they do broadcast out, but it's, like, that's not necessarily the experience. Like, people will kinda, like, if there's some big person on the news desk, like, kinda hover around to watch. But the news desk, they go live for 5 minutes, and then they go quiet and kill time for 25 minutes. So, like, not a good viewing experience necessarily. It's cool if you're there, but it's not something where you're just gonna camp out and, like, watch people talk on the news desk. Yeah. And also just on the news desk, I just love how it's like, in the center. It just it's a it's a real college game day experience. Yeah. No. I mean, the execution is awesome. Like, there there's definitely elements of the virtual execution that we've,

gotten to learn every single year, and we learned a lot this year. I'll tell you that, especially at GA day 1.

But in terms of incorporating

the News Desk element,

it absolutely huge. You know, I I I did the Bitcoin 21 stream on my laptop.

Like, I set that up every day before the conference started.

And, like, it pretty much was just a one straight shot of the main stage.

And then during intermissions and during lunch, it just, like, was a hold screen. Yeah. You know? So, like It's like a logo bouncing around or Yeah. You know? So, you know, the fact that there's color commentary, you know, if someone says something smart or dumb, like, we can talk about it,

and and it has, like, an all day entertainment flow.

It's fantastic. And it shows you the expo hall, which is, like, one of the best parts about the event is, you know, this is, in my opinion, the only event in the entire industry that actually has an expo

hall. And, like, that's super important for a lot of, like, the different vendors and the a lot of the different creators are just, like, trying to show their work to people and meet people and shake hands and build trust.

So, I think that that's, like, a a pretty big element that we do, and it brings a lot of life to the event. And I love the the the news desk is, like, right there in the on the expo. Well, I would say well, first of all, huge shout out to Chris Alema, rider die freak,



should get a lot of the credit for the news desk execution this this year. He fucking crushed it. He he did, like, 4 different jobs to make it happen. Yeah.


Last year, I think we had 3 different people doing what he did by himself. I love that dude. He's a great dude.


And then second of all, la last year, the volcano was behind the news desk, center the expo hall. Yep. This year, the

the the block clock no. I guess, we can't call it block clock because The block tower. NVK,

trademarked that term. The block tower, the big tower with mempool on the top, mempool dot space on the top was fucking badass. Yeah. That's And, that one was a win. This might be a controversial topic, but I think

I think I like the clock tower better than the volcano.

And I I think there's probably a 5050

I I feel like people probably feel strongly about one way or the other on that.


I think the clock tower should be here to stay. Like, the clock tower was so sick and dynamic. And when Marathon announced that they were,

they were matching,


to Brink,

2 to 1 during the event and then 1 to 1 after until they got to, half a $1,000,000 raise, so total of a $1,000,000 total to brink.

The clock tower behind it switched to,

show the QR code and promote the the fundraise. Yeah. And they ended up dynamic displays on it where Oh, it was on point. Very nice. You know, same when we launched the Bitcoin 24 Nashville tickets that changed.

So, like, I think we gotta keep that one. Yeah. And, like, the mempool team did an awesome job. Like, they built those custom mempool graphics. Yeah.

So, that's that's all the mempool team. They did an amazing job. It was sick. I mean, someone has told me that I need to get that mempool interface on my Apple Watch. I don't know how to make that happen. I think they're gonna release widgets with that interface. That's their plan. I'm announcing it live on air. Oh, so we we do blew it. Yeah. If you're listening, now you have to do it. You have no choice. Yeah. Sorry, Wiz. We hope we set you up. But, yeah, I was actually on the news desk while Wiz was announcing


his mempool accelerated on the open source stage, and the screens behind us on the tower dynamically

switched as the announcement was being made. It's really fucking awesome. Dude, yeah. So another,


like, behind the scenes freak who,

you know, made the all the stuff on the clock tower happened was Pedro.

Yeah. Pedro's amazing. Dude. Man, that guy is an absolute legend. I think he works on, like, 3 different projects, including

responding to every graphics request for the conference on our end, like,

night and day. Like, literally night and day because he doesn't live in the US time zone. So, like, we'll be messaging him late in Nashville, and, like, this dude's responding. It's like, I know how late it is where you live, bro, and I see that dude. That guy is amazing.


Pitcher's awesome. He is definitely a ride or die. So we do have a question in the comments. Let's go. Finally.

There's a bunch now. Okay. Good. Good. People are coming in.


I wanna hear the questions. I wanna talk about it. Okay.


Question was,

why was the main stage hidden upstairs in the corner?


Oh, that that's a good question.




the Miami Beach Convention Center

has its limitations.

I personally thought that the way that the floor plan was set up in the open source stage,

could have been better, and I think that there's a lot of learnings and improvements to

the presentation of where that is.

But I think at this point,

the team

every member of the team and including the production team, like, understands,

like, how important


the execution of that space is. Yeah. I mean, look, I'll jump in here because,

one of my responsibilities at the org is is making sure the open source stage is fucking badass.

I was very happy succeeded. Yeah. Very happy with the the whole idea

the the the idea was, first of all, you know, I mean, you have a venue. Right? You have a venue. You have what you can work with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also a bear market, so you have certain budgetary constraints.

And this idea that

the open source stage had its own

well, if first of all, let's go back to timelines.

Open source stage was dreamed up in

late 2020, early 2021.




And we had this great idea that we were gonna put this air conditioned dome


during the

2021 event. Didn't work out. The dome It did work out, but the dome didn't work out. First of all, the dome was smaller than we expected. The AC was way worse than we expected. It was way hotter outside than we expected. The dome had this, like, clear

this, like, clear,

panel on it. So it was like a it was like a greenhouse.

We had a greenhouse effect happening, so it was super hot in there. Yep. But

props where props are due.

The org agreed that we couldn't have, you know, some, like, shitcoin k y c sponsor on the on the dome. That dome ended up not having any sponsor. The org completely covered all the costs on that.

And then but there was it was great vibes. The vibes are great. The vibes are sweaty, but the vibes are great. Yep. So the next year, we did it bigger.


we had our own proper conference hall, in in the venue. Mhmm.

It was where the mining stage was this year.

Now we had our own issues. First of all,

we were very grateful that Cash App came in and sponsored it. It was you know, there was a the whole angle, like, oh, spiral, Cash App, but it ended up Cash App sponsored it. We were very grateful that Cash App came in and sponsored it.

And the org really pulled through. We had a a really great open source stage. But one of the main complaints we had was

there was at the end of the day, we talked about this earlier, like, what do people wanna do? They wanna meet each other in person Hang out. And they wanna hang out. And more on on the open source side, what do people want? They wanna, like, hack and do other things. They want tables and all this stuff. And we had some tables in the back, but noise was becoming an issue.

So then we brought the tables outside, but, like, the venue didn't like that. We had never agreed to that. We kinda just winged it on the venue. These are details I don't even know, Matt. There was like I thought you're coming in with some There was, like, questionable fire code violations and stuff, but the venue just Fire marshals are strict. The venue went along with it. Right? So Yeah. Enter this year, bear market budgetary constraints. Right? We found this upstairs portion where it used to be at the the

enterprise stage, I think, was up there in that area. And that was not a good location for the enterprise. And it was you had this you had we were able to put workshop tables outside. We had a private conference hall, and we bar? Bar and bathrooms

and a patio where you can smoke if you wanted some you wanted some fresh air, if you wanted some not fresh air, smoke cigarettes.

Like, it was a night I to me, it was it was the ideal vibe. Yep. And this idea that the open source stage is is essentially a conference within a conference. Right? And you could, if you wanted to, and I'm not saying you should necessarily, but if you wanted to, you could just wake up in the morning, go there, go upstairs,


and you you could just that could be your conference. Like, you don't have to go anywhere else. Totally. You just have everything you need. Yeah. I mean, totally. And, of course, I wish it Matt, thank you very much. You do you did a much better job. But, no. You

know, of course, I wanna make that element bigger. Right? And, like, for every element that was there, you know, I I pushed as hard as possible to make it as favorable as possible. You know, one of the big things that Matt and I both secured is maximum amount of,

dev tickets. So tickets to grants. You know, pretty much there's unlimited. You know, the org would have given unlimited We didn't have that program in 21. I think we started in 22. Yeah. We expanded it in 23. Yeah. To like, in terms of the product. We had over a 150 tickets to free so many developers


walked up to me, and

they they shook my hand. They thanked me, like, so so happy that they were able to get free,


3 day passes to the event. Totally. Totally. So and, you know, again, like, you know, businesses and hires are made at this event too. So,

you know, we push really hard, and I wanna make it bigger. And, like, I think here this is what's important is, like, we

only get one iteration at a time, you know, on this event. So, like, every single time, we actually do take a lot of your feedback, and we literally incorporate it, like, very strongly. For example, like, if you were to we didn't educate people about this as well as I wanted us to, But if you were to flip your wristband upside down, it was OPSEC friendly. And this is, like, something that Matt has been pounding the table for, like, 4 years on. He's, like, I don't wanna walk around a city with a thing that's a big coin and wail on it. You know? It's like so, you know, we took the you know, that those details,

and we take all of these different, you know,

requests and points and mistakes into account every single time. And we we I think we have a pretty much proven track record of make, you know, improvements in terms of, like, the overall event and and and making and making improvements and doing things awesome. And, yes, hey, the open source stage is the main stage for hardcore Bitcoiners.

And that's why we make it, you know, put a lot of effort into,

you know, it having Matt as an adviser, like, making sure that we have awesome open source stage content and making sure that stage exists. And, you know, in terms of, like, what's in for the open source stage next year, it's gonna be better. Like, it's gonna be a lot better, and I think it's gonna be a lot bigger. I think one of the things that was achieved this year is for the people on the team that weren't convinced that, the open source stage was a big deal for a lot of our audience. They are now firmly convinced on that.

So I think that the open source stage is really gonna be incredible next year in terms of, like, how well we produce the actual stage. You know, the content has been hitting, you know, pretty much since the get go, since it was a sweaty nerd tent. 2 things.


You said sweaty nerd tent. I've only used that term internally,

but you just said it publicly.

2 things. First of all,

there was about 10 people that,

either came up to me or it was obvious

through their GitHub activity that they started becoming open source contributors because of the program last year, and they wanted free tickets this year. Badass. Exactly the kind of incentive you wanna see. Mhmm. Second of all,

to me, a big fail

consistently has been lack of livestream out of the open source stage. Mhmm.

Hopefully, we see a change.


Well, it's not because we don't want it. You know, like, we don't here's something that people don't understand. Like, there's the pirate stream, which is not ideal. Yeah. But we don't stop the pirate stream. Like, we could like, thank you, Wiz. Like, we could we could easily stop the pirate stream to feel like we want it. It's unstoppable, dude. You can't sense through the pirate stream. Something is like There's no camera just sitting on a tripod in the corner


Yeah. So, like with a mobile hotspot attached to it.


Yes. You know, we we we try to do the pirate stream, and we try to, like you know, our commitment when there isn't a live stream is that we


prioritize that. The videos are prioritized. It was, like,

open source stage was, like, 14, 15 video on YouTube after the fact. Like, the YouTube team strongly prioritized the open source stage. And, like, let's just take a quick pause.


Andrea and Tino. Andrea, first of all, it was her birthday, like, in and around the conference. So, like, she and him were working

pretty much from

waking up


very late dinner

time every single day, like, editing and putting this stuff out. And, like, people don't even know, like, you know, when you see a livestream and it has all the production, all this kind of stuff, and then when you watch,

something, on stage that might not be livestreamed, they don't always capture the content the right way. Yeah. So, like, there was a lot of occasions where, like,

the deck wasn't aligned with the actual presentation. And then these

freaking angels, like, to put it the least,

incredible editors,

you know, they painstakingly

flip through the deck as the people were giving the presentation

while they're editing the video and then posting it. And they're doing it, like, you know, all day, every day

through their birthdays,

you know, through the exhaustion of traveling, through all this stuff. So, Yeah. That's even, you know,

Memorial Day was on Monday.

The the video team didn't take Monday off.

They just kept working through it. So

this is epic. It's like, cheers to them. People don't realize within the org,


people get married,

people people have kids, people have birthdays, people have, you

know, health issues. Right? And

the way the world works is they usually happen right around the conference. Like, there's no way you can never avoid that. Yeah. I got married. There you go. I remember that.


Doxing a lot of information here. Well, yeah. We didn't say




but, yeah, people don't realize that, but the team comes through and and tries to make it Yeah. Best possible. You know, in terms of, like, getting the livestream on the open source stage, you know, I think

every event is an iteration. So I think the open source stage will be bigger, better, better than ever before next year in Nashville.


I'm very excited about it moving to Nashville about it.

I've been rooting for Nashville since before I moved to Nashville and before I

joined New York.


Well, we can definitely talk about Miami to Nashville.

But, you know, if you are a part of an organization that is really,

a part you know, really passionate about open source and,

the content that's on the open source stage and you wanna help us make that content available immediately, like, we're we're down to talk. So,

we we're here for help. We're always here to do the best that we can.

You know, we don't always do the best, but,

you know, we're we're we're doing our best. Every year, we're trying to get better. And,

you know, with in terms of the open source stage, like, that is a core part of what we do. We know, like, that is so important to this audience.

And, you know, we we put a lot of resources into actually making it happen, and

that that's huge.


Yeah. Yeah. A lot of respect.

The org does get

seeing how the sausage is made,

I'm I'm I'm I'm

very grateful, and there's a lot of respect there in terms of how much

effort and weight is put behind the open source stage,

both from a budget, time, everything,


And I I think it I the the vibes were electric there. It was amazing. It was amazing this year. It was a massive success.

Are we Let's do more for it. Honestly, like, I agree with all of y'all. Let's do the open source stage better every single year. And the contributor program, like, we should be doing way better than like, me and CK were really disappointed that we only gave away a little over a 150 tickets. I I wanted 200 the whole time we got close. And I was, like, I was super bullish. CK was, like, are we gonna get over 200? I was, like, hell, yeah. We're gonna get over 200. We're gonna shatter 200.

But we got over 150. So but but, I would like to see that number go up. We gotta do it again for Amsterdam.


We we I think we still need to tee up the details there, but,

we're we're doing It wasn't

Oh, is that we haven't done it for Amsterdam in the past, but I think we should just bring the open source ticket program to all of the events. This is a good program. It's, like, 50 different projects are part of it now, and, we're we've been if you have suggestions on projects to add also.

I mean, they're popping up all the time.



some of the rules are bent a little bit even if there was there were some projects that weren't

on the website that we included in the program this year, and we'll expand that. A bunch of Noster projects were included, which I was really excited about.

There was a massive Noster presence at the event, which I think is a big win. It's a cool


expansion of Bitcoin culture. And, frankly, it could be bigger. So we're we're doing a pretty good Nostra stage would be pretty cool.


You know, Nostra Are you pronouncing the Nostra stage, CK?

Not not on this call. This is why CK doesn't like doing live shows because they just announced things that don't exist. That that's absolutely not true. I like live shows. In fact, I hate doing not live shows because it's just more work. That's true. There's no editing. I just I just press live, and we're we're we're on air.


Someone's asking in the comments, are is it public where it's happening in Nashville? Yeah. Miami Beach Convention Center. Sorry. God, I just said said Miami Beach Convention. That's so dumb. No. It was, I just got so used to saying that.


Now it it is at the Music City Center. Yeah. So the may the major convention center here in Nashville. Yeah. Right off Broadway.


Yeah. Right off Broadway across the street from,


the Bridgestone Arena.

And the cool thing about Nashville fucking awesome, by the way. Yeah. The cool thing about Nashville is, like, one, you don't need Broadway. Like, you can avoid Broadway. Like, Matt and I, how often do you go to Broadway? Only when, like, people visit. Yeah. When you're entertaining people. But it's a pretty freaking cool place to entertain people. It is one of the best tourist districts in the world. Yeah. It is. So, one, Broadway is awesome. You can ignore it a 100%. You don't need Broadway. And then


Nash or sorry. Unlike New York, unlike other places, like, Bitcoiners can a 100% take over Nashville. Yeah. Like, in Nash I mean, the color of Tennessee is already big. Break it to you. We're already taking over Nashville. But, you know, I'm talking about, like, completely the the Bitcoin horde has run down all of all of Nashville. It is orange everywhere. The bull market turns. You know, and then every business

I can't begin to express to you, like, Rod has already started setting me up with local business people, like, the grassroots that are deep into Nashville already

that are on team Bitcoin and have just been absolutely coming out of the woodwork in support of Bitcoiners coming here and this event.

It it's unbelievable. So I'm very hyped. I mean, I live here. I don't live in Miami.

So I'm just excited for what we can actually do here in Nashville, and it's it's gonna be sick.


Yeah. I also live in Nashville.


I think, well, on Twitter, it says I live in Austin, so

most people a lot of people just think that. I,

but, yeah, we're at Bitcoin Park in Nashville, a community space dedicated to Bitcoin and community development.

I think Nashville is, you know, one of the best cities in the world to live in as a Bitcoiner,

period. Full stop.

I would not say that about Miami. I'm enjoying it.

And I'm very excited I'm very excited for the conference to be here. I'm very excited. One of the things also people don't realize if they don't come,

to these to these

massive Bitcoin festivals

is that it's it's a week full of other events and everything that goes on. So,

I I I am very bullish on Bitcoin in Nashville.

I think that Nashville

is quickly becoming one of the Bitcoin capitals of the world regardless,

and this conference, this week long

crazy festival,

will supercharge that and just speed up the timeline.


1 100%. And I could tell you from the conversations I'm having that it's getting serious.

Like, I'm ready for the next, like, I'm ready for Tennessee to be known as as, like, the next Texas in the Bitcoin race. Yeah. Like, I think Nashville is already on par with Austin, but I'm ready for Tennessee to be on par with with what Texas is doing. And I think, you know, it's all about credit is where credit is due. Thank you, Florida. Like, sincerely. Like, we would have been in Miami for the last 3 years as the Bitcoin conference. Thank you so much to Miami because

I remember, Matt, when you were in that room with me when

I had to stand up and be, like, we can't do the Bitcoin conference in California.

In 20 19

in California at the time, and I was like

and it was it was not a done deal in 2021. It was not a done deal to move the event to Miami. The only reason we moved it to Miami is because Miami was the only place in the freaking country

that was, like, a real city that was open. That was turnkey. And, yeah. And, like like, it was, like, the whole thing was open. Like, you're saying it's turnkey. It's, like, the whole thing was open. Like, Nashville was open, but it wasn't, like, all the way open. Like, the concerts and the festivals and clubs were not, like, on the same level yet. I have to check the receipts. Yeah. I have to check with the receipts. Like, Nashville popping. I'm pretty sure that my vote was Nash I hadn't moved to Nashville yet. I'm pretty sure my vote was Nashville at the time. People want it Nashville. But I I will tell you for sure, I don't need to check receipts for this. I was very early on the bail on LA train. Yep. Like


like, in 2020, I was like, you guys are fucking crazy. Like, you cannot have this in LA. Oh, yeah. Because it was 2020 got canceled in my in,


SF, and then, we can't and then when it got canceled, we moved it to LA. Yeah. We had to deposit on a place, and that was, like, a big reason. It was, like, they're gonna rug pull us. It's gonna we're gonna get rug pull. Yeah. I mean,

in hindsight, it was it's very clear that no event was happening in California in 2021,

especially not Very obvious. Nice. Want yeah. But, you know, again, like, Miami made it possible.

The Bitcoin conference in my I mean, especially 2021

was, like, a bleeding edge event that was on the cutting edge of freedom. Like, literally, like, the front lines of freedom. Like, that was Bitcoin 2021.

And And, like, all the haters came out too. The all the haters, like, mainstream media or whatever is saying, like, we're killing people, like, oh my god. The Rolling Stone article afterward was hilarious. So, like, that was, like, the PR crisis of, you know I think we've upgraded. Our PR crisis is now, you know, our we had a presidential speech where that was too awesome,

and then people didn't like the content afterwards.


Before, like, in 2021, the PR crisis was that we were literally killing people. I mean, I I had family that was just, like, not only are you going down to Miami for a 13,000 person event, you helped run it. Like, they were



Yeah. Thankfully, my family was never that distraught, but I don't think that they fully grokked what I was doing. So maybe it was just ignorance is bliss.


Yeah. That

I mean, besides the lines


I mean, were we not on the on the cutting edge, the bleeding edge 2021. Of freedom, like, in that moment? 2021 was a special event. Like, I just wanna say 20 bit block boom in 2021 Yeah. Bitcoin Bitcoin 2021,


they were both,

like, just you'll never repeat them because you had to have that macro climate Mhmm. Of just panic and fear. So 2020


Bitlock Boom, I was supposed to go. I had a ticket. I gave it to Nick Camp Mine, which was probably one of the best decisions of my career.


one of great for me. I chilled with Nick. I wish I could have gone, but that weekend, truthfully, was the same weekend I was moving,

and my wife would have

murdered me. I was, like, I even tried to be, like, look. I'll do all the moving a week before. Moving internally in California? I was moving, yeah, from my apartment to my parent in law's house. I was moving to my in law's.

This is, you know, summer of 2020. So I was, like, getting out of my lease, you know, consolidating, like, you know, this is a very rational thing to do at the time. It was the same weekend, and my wife was like,

you're not allowed to leave. Like, you have to be move be moving on this weekend. So I gave the ticket to Nick.


convinced Dylan McClaire that he needs to work for us. This is Dylan McClaire under 5,000 followers. And Nick was like, Nick and Joe Rogers, like, bro,

we need to hire Dylan Leclerc. And then I wasn't gonna fight them. So then I was like, Dylan, what are you good at? He's like, I don't know. I like Bitcoin. And I was like, alright. We'll figure out how to hire you. So because I didn't go to Boom Boom 2020, we got Dylan Leclaire. I think blessed up to that. Yeah. And I got to spend a lot of time with Nick. It was that also weekend was the first time I ever met Pete. Mhmm.

Pete was at that. That's epic. That's epic. I hired I hired Pete, to Bitcoin Magazine after a bit block boom 21. Oh, no. That's I mixed it up. P, I met at bit block boom. Yeah. That's when he joined Bitcoin Magazine. And I wish he was still at Bitcoin Magazine, but he is absolutely crushing at swans. I'm happy for him.


Yeah, man. Long but short.


But, like, regardless,

the reason I brought that up is, like Yeah. Why do we bring this up? Well, you know, I was I was just trying to say, like,

of of all the criticism you can give Bitcoin Magazine Yeah. But we can get one thing one thing that you can't criticize is I think, like, we've shown repeatedly that we're willing to take chances and we have balls. I would say Yes. Being the 1st multicoint company to go Bitcoin only,

launching a Bitcoin conference that was actually, like,


like, viable,

at scale,

and and scaling it,

pushing the conference through in the depth of the pandemic, doing literally doing everything within our power to have an event in the pandemic, I think shows really shows our colors. Yeah. What was the Rolling Stone article quote? It was like Bailey was like, if if you're scared of dying, don't come or something. Yeah. Which is the perfect which is the perfect fucking quote, man. Like and we did tell That's very Don't forget. In those moments, we said, like, please, if you like, if you are scared of COVID, don't come. But if you want if you're here for Bitcoin, please come.


Yeah. That's a very provocative quote. Very good. But it summed it up. You know? And then And then also the magazine that we have here. I mean, this is, like, the highest quality magazine in in the world.

Definitely the highest quality

magazines like this anymore.


But, like, you know,

being able to say, hey. Here's a controversial topic in Bitcoin, and then we are gonna innovate and release use it to release our magazine cover, use bag

you know, use Bitcoin to release a magazine cover. I think that's another moment. And, you know, hate us, love us, or just agree. Yeah. You know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. We we We don't agree on that one. It's okay. You know, I think that you know you know, I think we we do agree that It might surprise you that not everyone in the org agrees on everything. No. No. But, like, you know, we do agree that that the ordinal protocol

has yet to prove itself.

I do think that using Bitcoin

and inscribing things on Bitcoin is super interesting, and I, you know, I don't know if you agree with that one, put words in your mouth, but we've had some interesting conversations about that. Well, I think inscriptions are interesting. I think ordinal theory is a scam.


Yeah. So I guess I would say transferring the inscriptions between, like, selling it and transferring it between people is based on this external ordinal theory.


Yeah. So I guess, like, what I would say is, like, if ordinal theory works, like, and people adopt it, then it's not a scam. But if it doesn't, then you definitely are, like, it you're gonna get rug because the only thing that Bitcoin ownership. Yeah. Ordinal's theory transfers the ownership theoretically.

The only thing that Bitcoin enforces

is the is, like, the existence of the image that's inscribed.

Bitcoin does not enforce the ownership at all. Right. The image is is in the block. Yeah. A 100%. But, like, again, like The JPEG is in the blockchain. Yeah. But you released this cover. The Assange cover was released. Like, that's how we showed it to the world. That's how we unveiled it is with Bitcoin. Like, people don't know. Like, we are planning on unveiling it, like, almost 8 days before that. But The fees went up? No, dude. We we we inscribed it, like It was, like, 4 it was a 4 white we we inscribed the biggest block in the Bitcoin history. So this is this is the biggest,

inscription, if you will,

when when fees went pretty much pretty much you lost your bet, we inscribed it, and then fees just skyrocketed because of BRC 20. Well, I doubled down on the bet and Okay. Well mempools haven't cleared since then. I'm directionally correct.


we can argue about that maybe. I, like, I just think the nature of Bitcoin is still too uncertain for us to say that mempools will never clear.


Yeah. I mean,

mempools might I'm I'm being intentionally provocative to say at some point, mempools will never clear again.

But most likely And I'll put my money where my I mean, at the end of the day, like, the bets are way smaller than the fee rates I'm happy to pay

if mempools never clear guns. So


So what you're saying is you're fucked regardless?


Is there another beer in there? I'd be better off losing the bet is what I'm saying in terms of actual cost to me. Word.


Sorry. We're interrupting the pod for for me to get another beer. Thank you. American classic.


So should we get into should we get into criticism? Yeah. Like, you got the the feed filled up. Hit me. Yeah. I mean, they're not asking you the hard hitting ones. Well, you you could fill in the blanks if they're not going hard enough. Like, my friend will look up. This is not a softball,


conversation. Like, if people say that, hey. This was a softball conversation, Matt. Just know that, you know, from the get go, I said ask me anything, and, the freaks need to deliver on their end of the bargain. Okay. Well, before I before we jump into criticisms, we have Dakota Brown in the comments saying me and the wife ran into ck and q twice at Bitcoin Miami wild time. Sounds like she had a great time. Yeah. Well, hey. I'm glad I got to bump into you, and, you know, that's the best best part of the conference is getting to meet Bitcoiners. Me in the way.


Okay. So then we've seen


the wizards on stage right after RFK.

Yep. So let's address that,


wizard in the room.

That's funny, the wizard's in the room. That's funny. Yeah. Wait. So why don't why don't you can you articulate the criticism to the best of your ability, or should I?


Well, I will say that I can relate to the con the criticism.

Okay. I don't fully agree with the criticism,

but what I

my thought is

is if you have a large audience in Bitcoin,

and specifically at Bitcoin because we all have common ownership we all feel like we have common ownership of Bitcoin.

We all have there's many of us that have dedicated our lives to the movement and the Bitcoin mission,

and as a result, people feel very connected to it.

Obviously, that doubles down for someone like me who's been working with the team,

for years now. Mhmm. So, like, not only do I have the Bitcoin connection, I also, you know, know the team intimately

and and am am part of the team. So, like, it reflects on me and is is part of my life's work. Right? Mhmm. I think there's a responsibility

when you have a platform,

on who you decide


elevate and provide

your platform to. Right? Like, if if if you are the the largest Bitcoin podcast,

you have a responsibility to your audience to maintain integrity

and not put bad faith actors on stage, and if you have on on your podcast, and if you have the largest Bitcoin conference or festival or whatever you wanna call it,

where you have 15,000 people there and you have

millions of people watching on the livestream,

like, you have I wish there was that many people. I'm always selling.

I I almost said 100 of 1,000. I'll I'll take 1,000,000 too. I went to 1,000,000. What's up?

You have millions of people watching on the livestream.

You have a,


on who you choose to to put on the stage.

And, you know,

I I think,

in general, the

the Bitcoin Magazine team does a great job of balancing all these different

warring priorities and everything and it's just crazy

clusterfuck of running an event that size. Mhmm. But there's not enough

respect and responsibility taken to to who who is who is put on the stage. And I think that was the case,

with the Wizards.

I think, specifically,

Udi acts in bad faith all the time.

I think he's a bad faith actor. I think there was a decision that was made that maybe it would create drama and sell tickets and do all this stuff. But I think at the end of the day, it was a net negative for Bitcoin. I think there's many other voices that should have been promoted.

And then to me, I mean, a big one for me,

and people know I'm very vocal about it, is


the Stacks guys. Like, I just do not think Stacks should be anywhere near our our event. I don't think they should I've they've never been on my podcasts.

Like, it's something that I practice what I preach. Like, I I would never have them at the park,

because I just think they act in bad faith. I think they mislead people. I think that is, you know, an outright scam in my opinion. I don't I'm not like one of those, quote, unquote, maxis, which I think is a derogatory term anyway, that call everything a scam. I think, like, Stacks is straight up

they they intentionally mislead people. They're trying to

to to target naive retail users and and bring them into their scheme.


I'm not as educated on stacks as you.


You know why I'm educated on stacks, by the way? Yeah. Because 2 years ago, Bitcoin Magazine was gonna work with them, and I had to read, like,

the 4 hour white paper to, like, educate myself on it to argue against it. Mhmm.

And props or props are due. They weren't a part of the last conference. They weren't a part of last year.

They did their own warring conference, and they did one this year too. Mhmm. Yeah. Which they intentionally call builders on big Bitcoin builders conference when it's really just Stacks pre mine

forever ICO conference. Like, the whole scheme is


Yeah. So, 2 things. You mentioned the stacks,


that's definitely something to bring up. You mentioned the Oodie, which is completely something,


different. Completely too different. So But they they Yeah. But yeah. The connection is this responsibility of who you put on stage. Right? That's where people get angry. I think people are getting angry Yeah. And passionate, and it's cool it's great that people have passion. Like, that's one of the reasons that Bitcoin will succeed. No. Absolutely. And, like, look. Hey. In the deep like, unfortunately, like, normally, when I'm, like, working all day, I don't have time to be on Twitter. Unfortunately, when a lot of, like, the hubbub was going on,


I was, like,

taking a little bit of time off immediately after the conference, and, unfortunately, I was, like, on Twitter too much.

So I may have been a little, like, too exposed to, like, some of these,

some of these conversations that were happening.

But, you know,

in terms of, like look. I like, let's just address one at a time. Okay. So Specifically,

Udi and the Wizards.


when people come on stage,

1st and foremost,

at our conference,

we don't necessarily endorse

what they've done or, like, we explicitly do not endorse what they've done in the past or what they will do in the future.

What we are doing is we're bringing people on stage to have a relevant conversation.

So you kind of expressed that, hey, period. There has to be, like, this responsibility


a specific

what you would consider a code of conduct.

So I think that, you know, we absolutely have a code of conduct,

that we're trying to enforce. You know, for example, like, Mike Novogratz, he was on stage at Bitcoin 22,

and he talked about Luna. People, like, you know, people were upset that he showed Luna. Right? I remember that. So as part of our code of conduct, he was not on stage for Bitcoin 23.

Right? So he broke our Yeah. What happened with Luna?

Yeah. I mean, when he he broke a code of content by, like, shilling Luna on stage because it's a Bitcoin conference. Right. It doesn't matter what happened with Luna. That's where he broke the Yeah. That one was unexpected

to a degree. Sure. Yeah. So but in general, like, you know,

it's impossible to have the show one was,

But let me finish. In general, I that was just one example. Right? So he's, like, you know, Mike we'd love to have Mike in the future as long as he's con consistent in being relevant to Bitcoin. You know, he runs Galaxy Digital.

Galaxy is one of the largest miners in the space. Galaxy is one of the public companies with the most amount of Bitcoin on their balance sheet. You know, they are relevant to Bitcoin. That's what we are honing in on. So what we are endorsing is a

conversation on stage that is relevant to Bitcoin.

We don't endorse what they do on social media before or after.

So in terms of, like, the wizard conversation,

having the conversation at all, I think we're bold to host the conversation. I think the conversation in terms of, like, the great ordinal debate, inscriptions,

what's happening on Bitcoin,

how to bring more,

adoption to Bitcoin, what kind of adoption do we want? That's an important conversation to have, period.

I think there's a lot of people in the Bitcoin space that don't wanna have the conversation, that have already made their mind up.

I would say, like, mathematically speaking, in terms of, like, how fees are going and what the blockchain incentives are doing,

like, they're out of place. Like, we need to be talking about this.

So, like, let's just talk about you're saying that. Right? And then I'm qualifying the conversation. Okay. Right? So I think The topic. The topic. Like, we need to be having that conversation. I think it it is still a debate because there's people who have strong opinions about it. I agree that the topic is important. Right? So I think, one, that's bold to have that topic because we've seen people

pretty much take a majority opinion and stick to it in a strong way. And I just you know, I I don't think that me or the programming team or leadership of Bitcoin Magazine a

point that there's a debate there. In terms of, like, Udi and Eric okay. So


you know, I think it's fair to say, look, Udi, you shield some things that

are super regrettable.

You should own that up. Like, it that's it's not to. It's bad faith not to.

Okay? But in FTX, Luna.

Name it. Yeah. Like, I don't I don't double click any of that. And and, Udi, it it is it is, it is in your best interest, in my opinion, to

own up to any mistakes that you might have, be a man, and own up to it. But, you know, are Udi and Eric bringing up good and interesting points

about Bitcoin, if you listen to them? Are they

important parts of, like, the counter movement?

I think 100%,

they are absolutely relevant. That is I think that's subjective,

for sure. And, like, hey. You you wanted to say that they are irrelevant? Okay. Well, Renee Picard, who I think is, like, a

respected member of the lending community who's done a lot of great stuff, like, 4 days ago, he put out, like, a long thread about,

you know, how he is thinking about Bitcoin differently because

of Udi and Eric in particular and asking for them to to to,

comment on things. Right? And a lot of people are commenting on that thread. I think we we can maybe link it or something like that if people wanna look it up. But, like, there's a real conversation here. Those people

are a integral part of that conversation.

And then in terms of actually setting up that that panel

and the timing of that panel, first, who is on the panel?

One, bless up to Matt Corolla, who's on the panel from my understanding from the get go and, you know, was willing to have the conversation.

Plus up to Shinobi for stepping up to fill the void.

You know, we cycle through several people who were

on the opposing

ordinals and wizard side of the debate.

We cycle through multiple people who are on the the wizard side of the debate,

and, you know, we try to put together the best panel possible. And, you know, I think that Udi and Eric, you know, when engaged in and and locked in on that conversation,

they they were ready to go.

And, you know, again, I think Shenobi and and Matt did a good job.

And, you know, when I reach back up when I listen back to that conversation,

there's some elements that were clowny. There's some elements that weren't ideal.

I wish that maybe they had gotten deeper, but ultimate ultimately, I thought that there was, like, some good points made. There's some thought provoking things made, that all panelists said, and there's a lot of real talk. So I'm like, what how are we gonna move Bitcoin from 0.001%


to global adoption? Like, it's not gonna be easy, and I thought that all the panelists made good points. Like, go and watch it again. Again, there's some parts that are like, meh. There's some parts that are like, okay. I thought about that. That was great. Like so, you know, in terms of qualifying this conversation, if Oodie does something that, you know, I might not necessarily endorse in the future, like, it that happens. Like, the conference can't scale. The conference can't work. We can't have a big, you know, we can't have a a big tent event for the Bitcoin ecosystem

if, like, I have to endorse a 100% of someone's social media. But that's a cop out, CK.


I mean, that that that's a baseline That's strong, man. I'm not saying you have to endorse a 100. I'm like, I'm saying I'm saying bear, like

and and look, I've I've been in the internal conversations. Right? Like so, like, I I I know it is difficult.

And I know, like, this idea of, like, the dream is, like, some kind of objective

analysis on who is good faith and who is bad faith, and it just doesn't fucking exist. Like, you can't

there's and and and there has been attempts have been made to

okay. This is our policy.

Right? And certain and there's, you know, there's been plenty of speakers that never touched the stage

that no one ever hears knows about. Right? Because they didn't pass that basic check. Right? This objective,

you know, framework, right, on who goes on stage and who doesn't go on stage. Right? And, like and the the org deserves a ton of credit for that. Right? And but no one ever gives the org credit for that because they don't see it. Right? Because it doesn't happen. I've had this conversation with Rizzo at length. This idea of, like,

you never get credit for the things that get filtered because no one knows it happens or whatever. Right? And it's just, like, you know, it's the unseen

whatever. But my point is

is is is that's not the point. Yeah. Not I'm well, I'm not looking for credit. That's just us 200 Joe. But but the point is Mhmm. Is that

is that

it is who you who you put on stage, you have a responsibility for. And, like, I I,

regardless of how I feel about who was chosen to put on stage,

the thing

that angers me the most and disappoints me the most is when the argument is leveled that

we don't endorse these people,

and we have no responsibility for it. If someone comes on my podcast

if someone comes on my podcast,

I am responsible for that per I'm not I don't endorse their life decisions.

Right? But, like, I take like, if if someone came on my show Mhmm. And then scammed a bunch of people or acted in bad faith or whatever Mhmm. Like, there is some responsibility

on me for that. And I would have trouble sleeping at night. I would go out and and accept responsibility for that.

And that that lack that it to me, it feels a little bit cop out, and it feels a little bit like a straw man. This idea that, like, oh, we we can't we can't endorse everybody,


you know, and, we take no responsibility for it. I think that there's a lot of straw man's leveled against us too. 100%. Full shitcoin event


the the strawman, like, like, the strawman that, like, oh, the open source stage in Bitcoin week are are the, the real event. And it's like, we plan that too, guys. But,

regardless, like, let's let's talk about, you know, who we let on stage. And, like, first of all, what we do take responsibility for is what is said on stage and what is said on the livestream and what is said,

you know, ultimately,

through our channel.


again, the best way that we can quality control is obviously on the front end. On the back end is with recourse if someone breaks our quality control mechanisms.

As far as I'm concerned in terms of that talk, they didn't break our quality control on the actual conversation. Like,

they talked about the subject.

Like, they brought up good points. You know, not all the points were amazing. You know, some of the points were provocative and trollish,

but the actual conversation itself was, like, it it didn't break our rules. So, like, I totally feel like when people get mad at us because someone talked about an altcoin on stage, 100% against our rules, and, you know, we didn't have them back the next year.

And we definitely are responsible for that. In terms of, like, okay,

are we responsible from keeping, like, real bad faith actors off? And how do you define those real bad faith actors?

Like, you know, first of all, defining those real bad faith actors is difficult to get consensus with, and people have different trade offs that they kind of ultimately make.

But we we, of course, have to get better. We, of course, have to get better. And there's trade offs. Like, there's people who wanna get money in no matter what. There's people who want who are thinking quality no matter what at the event. And, like, everyone is working hard as possible and fighting and, you know, grinding to have the final result that makes the, you know, that that makes the most sense. And then at the end, you know, you you say, these were good trade offs. These were bad trade offs. Like, let's not make these bad trade offs again. So, like, you know, after the event, you know, I wrote down all the bad trade offs I made, and I messaged all the people that made those bad trade offs, and I try to have a conversation about it and try to affect it next year.

There's so many fucking trade offs that we're making all the time. And, you know, something I want I'll be remiss to not talk about on this call is, like, what is our, like, audience and mission and, like, our business kind of rationale? I definitely wanna tease that out on this call. Or I'm sorry. Not on this call, but on this call. We're we're sitting a foot away from each other having beers. Yeah. But, you know, I wanna talk about I wanna talk about that. So the best calls. But,

you know, I I think it it's important too. Like,

hey. We're like, the event is a business.

We're trying to have a very large business. We're trying to bring people together. We're trying to do things at scale that need to hap that can only happen at scale. Like, they can't happen in a small time environment.

We're always making trade offs. People have different,


All of us are big like, literally, everyone at the company is a Bitcoiner. So I saw some things where people were like, you know, are there even Bitcoiners at Bitcoin Magazine? Like, I think that can endorse the fact that, like, 95, 96, 97% of the company that are putting their real heart and soul into the signal, like, are Bitcoiners. They're ride or die Bitcoiners. Like like, these people are, like, you know, they're making sacrifices to work in Bitcoin. I mean, to a potentially to a fault even. Like like, CK and the rest of the team, like, they prioritize Bitcoin first. It's like, okay. We can train you into this role. It's like, oh, you've never run a conference before? It's like, fine. It's okay. But you're a Bitcoiner, so then you can figure out the rest of the shit. Yeah. Hey. No. Like, we we had like, on the scale of, like, how important it is that you're a Bitcoiner, are super important at Bitcoin Magazine while hiring you.

So, like,

you know, we're we are truthfully, honestly making a good faith effort to do our best. And, again, like, I can tease out any of the details there.

We're also truthfully, honestly not trying to bow down to the mop. And we're truthfully, honestly

have always been consistently

focusing on what is the relevant conversation to Bitcoin and what is not mob or what is not

groupthink authorized. And just a great example, Bitcoin 2019, guess what we were getting heat for? It wasn't killing people. It was inviting Ji Hyun Woo on. And, you know, Jihan Moon at the time,

the CEO of Bitcoin, sorry, the CEO of Bitmain,

the, you know, probably the the biggest muscle behind Bitcoin Cash,


and we wanted to be, like, hey. Fresh still at that point. So fresh at 2019. Like Most of the new freaks have no idea. Yes. And we were One of the most controversial actors in Bitcoin.


Definitely a bad faith One of the most impactful,

one of the most controversial, you know, in the past has been absolutely bad faith actor. He's still relevant today as Bitmain is still one of the most important and impactful

hardware manufacturers.

But in 2019, like, he was completely

taboo, and, you know, he never showed up to the event, but we extended, you know, an all branch and not said, like, it's okay that you attack Bitcoin, but, like, hey. Talk about it. Let's talk about it. So I think, like, that's been consistent.


And This is part of the reason why, like, a set framework.

Mhmm. It's just really you can't really it just doesn't exist.

Because so, like, I

I supported that at the time. I

I mean, it took me a little while to think about it. Mhmm. But at the time, I supported the Jihan decision. It made sense. It was a highly relevant conversation. It's a guy who was

extremely influential in Bitcoin. He attacked Bitcoin, but he was extremely influential in Bitcoin.


And it's just hard to have sorry too. You know? He never apologized. No. But he did with his wallet. So Yeah. Yeah. With yeah. With his business. Same with Roger. But I don't think Rogers I don't I don't know. I can't speak on Roger at all. I think Jeehan is a lot more for for I think Rogers and or Jeehan has come back to Bitcoin a lot more than Rogers from Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Roger just anyway,


that's a tragic story on his end. Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah. Jeehan bent the knee and just came back and I mean, at the end of the day, he decided during the Bitcoin Cash War if we wanna relitigate the Bitcoin Cash War, he decided that he didn't wanna kill his golden goose and never full on attack Bitcoin. Like, he never moved his hash over to Bitcoin Cash in a real way, and he could have.

And that's just because the incentives work. Yep. While Roger made some really

bad decisions and and and kind of aped the fuck into Bitcoin Cash and lost a lot of money. But,

okay. But the key here is, do you agree with me that there's there's responsibility with who goes on stage? Like, even I like, I'm not intimately involved in the programming of the Nakamoto stage. Like, I take I feel bad

when there's bad faith actors on stage. Like, I take responsibility for that too. Like, there's responsibility


there. Yeah. No. They're what again, they're a 100% is responsibility. There's responsibility of every element of the event. There is a 100% responsibility of who goes on stage, the result,

and then how we react to it.


there's also a tremendous amount of


just incentives

and that Yeah. Are important in putting on this business and important in doing what we're trying to do at scale.

And it's difficult to get it right,

and it's it's more difficult than people think. But at the same time, like


different opinions within the org need to get data points in order to affect change. Right. So it's like,

you know, one, your obvious recommendation

is not always that obvious, especially with all the context that you don't know.

And then 2, like, different players are accumulating data points and then may affecting change as we have iterations.

And, like, you know, I one of the feedbacks that I was getting when I was on Twitter too much, you know, a week and a half ago Many such cases. Was was that, like, you know, Bitcoin Magazine is not taking,

is not taking responsibility for the mistakes we've made. So it's like, you know, I I feel that

at the same time, like, we just did something really hard and felt really good about it and did a lot of things right. And we're just people that are

you know, I think there's people that are feeling attacked. Yeah. So, like, you know, it's it's hard to, like, bet. And, again, we also wanna appear strong. Like, you know,

you don't want to, like, quote unquote, bend the the need to to people yelling at you on the Internet. Like, that's also not, like, necessarily a wise thing to do. So it's like, you know, trying to manage, like, we're learning, taking data points and trying to make a better product, you know, every single year in every single iteration,

managing, you know, kind of how we appear in the

audience. And then knowing that, like,

every single person at the company is a Bitcoiner on Bitcoin Twitter that is, like, effectively in a family with all the people that are yelling at them. Like, you know, all of these elements, you know, it makes it a complex situation for sure.


Well, I appreciate that. Yeah. No. I I'm I mean, I definitely I definitely agree that it's,

yeah, people just don't see the behind the scenes. Anyway, I think, to me, the Wizards thing was

a decision I wouldn't have made.

I don't think it was the best decision.

But to me, it's it was mostly irrelevant. It's it's, like,

neither here nor there. So let's talk about the time. Bigger. Yeah. And you fit into your point, and then I wanna talk about the time. To me I mean, to me, the the the Wizards is I mean, I don't think Udi belonged on stage. I I don't know what he's actually done

in Bitcoin except for

gaslight Bitcoiners and act in bad faith.

To this day, I've been blocked by him, and he, like, will tag me, for instance, and and pretend, like, oh, why isn't Odell responding? But he has me blocked, so I can't I can't see it or respond to it.

Behavior like that is just indicative of people that are acting in bad faith. Right? And it's like I said, it's very hard to

to balance that out and have kind of sub objective framework, but we both know, like, you're running an event, you have very finite time

on stage. It is the most valuable scarce resource for an event. And I just think it was a bad decision, but it was mostly irrelevant to me. Like, that is not really,


to me, that is not the main criticism in terms of responsibility. I think when and if I would just push back really quick, like, to you as relevant to a lot of people in the programming team, it was a very relevant conversation, relevant enough, and Udi being relevant enough to that conversation that it was worth,

the heat to bring them on. And we're always what we are trying to do, whether people agree with it or not, is is just have maximum relevance. Like, that's and boldly so. Like, we'll do it boldly

whether whether,

you know, the majority or the minority likes it or not, we'll do it boldly. So we can agree to disagree But the important thing relevance, but at the same time, like, I think it's clear, like, I get what you're saying. We need data points.

We need to affect change internally.

We also I think it's it's pretty important that


what we should be held accountable for is the decisions we make and,

what people do on stage and then how we react to it, you know, as as a complete package. I don't think it's fair to, like,

criticize us. Okay. We made a bad decision. I get it.

But I don't think it's fair to, like, criticize that in a bubble when, like, the reaction, the response, the next iteration,

you know, is not put into that,


the analysis. And, like, my point is the point I was trying to make is the the biggest the biggest thing to me is the responsibility aspect of it. Right? Is that there is a responsibility.

I think we should accept responsibility. Like, I think there should be a and, like, here's the thing. It's like, I'm not

I don't feel like I'm necessarily criticizing your decision or the Bitcoin Magazine team's decision because I'm part of the fucking team.

So, like, I'm criticizing

I'm criticizing how we've reacted as an org in certain situations. I think that there should be some responsibility taken. Mhmm. And, like, okay. We appreciate your feedback.

You know, maybe the tone wasn't appreciated, but we we appreciate your feedback, and we aim to do our best, and we understand there's a responsibility there. Right?

That's kind of that's kind of where I come from in, as that perspective.

I think there's probably a a, like, a a large portion of the org that that agrees on that front,

because at the end of the day, like you said, orgs are made up of people. Like, they're not just some and and Twitter is just horrible as a platform in that regard because everyone just wants

to get their sound bite. There's no nuance. There's no long form conversation. It's one of the reasons why I think it's good it's really good to have this Yeah. As you said, call. Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. This conversation. On air. Yeah. But, look, you wanna talk about the timing? Is that what you you wanna Let's jump into the timing.


So RFK goes on, gives a ridiculous speech. Well, first of all, RFK going on and giving a ridiculous speech is in no way guaranteed. In hindsight, like, obviously I was on the news desk afterwards. I was like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah. Exactly. Like, that in the top moment, it was like, I was my jaw was dropping that he was saying these things. Yeah. Right? Like, that was not expected at all. That that could have been the most vanilla speech for all we knew. He could've just showed up and there was a dud. He was like, I like crypto and blockchain. Yeah. Like That's what politicians use to say. That was a 100% in the cards, and then, you know, people probably would be like, Bitcoin Magazine

dropped a dud on RFK, and then

but okay. So,

that conversation with RFK materialized,


within less than 20 days of the copy Right. Happening. That's another thing people don't realize.

So the logistical nightmare of, like, moving things around on the program within that close of the event is insane. Yes.

You know, ultimately,

you know, if we were to take all things in consideration,

knowing everything that actually materialized,

would we have potentially, like, reorganized

our schedule a little bit in terms of, like, changed up

how we did the prime time stuff or whatever or segregated them differently?


Like, maybe. But it was way less obvious in the time. What was obvious is, like,

RFK is coming in. We need a prime time spot for him.

Like, we need to find a way to make that work.

The team made it found a way to make that work.

It was a huge success. Yeah.

And then the Wizards came on. Well, no.



me, Dylan, Jesse Myers, and Nolan came on because everyone was watching through the livestream, and we were on the news desk responding to it. Totally. And and you guys So I take a little bit of offense on people giving shit on the timing thing. I think we handled ourselves really well because we were just sitting there just like,

what did this politician just say about Bitcoin? It was like, self custody. Hold your own use your own keys. Hold your own nose. Like, I believe in the Canadian truckers.


Like, I we were just you know, we did not expect it. But, anyway, we were next and then the Wizards. And the Wizards came on. Okay. And then so first and, like, we we started knowing that, like, things kinda felt a little weird when, like like, back I was backstage, and backstage, like, the tense energy was insane. Like, it was almost like this energy of, like

like, maybe that there's gonna be something super effing negative that could happen at any moment because

this guy whose family history of getting his Both his uncle and his dad were just We're right there. So, like, there's this energy of, like, something important is happening. Like,

I hope nothing fucking horrible happens. Yeah.

And and this is super serious and tense in the background. And, also, like, what the fuck is this guy actually saying? Like, oh my god. Yeah. And then, like, there's these guys dressed up in wizards,

like, hanging out also backstage.

Yeah. You know? And and Rizzo is, like, prepping with them and Shinobi and Matt are with them and, like, so in that moment, it kinda was, like, okay. Like, maybe these moments don't match up.

It did not become that obvious until right then. You know? Like Yeah. And the timings are So it's like timing's super difficult. So if if you wanna say it's, like, unforgivable,

well, it's like, one, like, that's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. Like, we we helped make that moment happen in the 1st place.

Secondly, it's like you're not you you're showing that you you have absolutely no idea on, like, the all the moving parts and the complexity of that stuff. And it's, like, in hindsight, yeah, it's always 2020.

But, like, leading up to that moment, it was not obvious that that was gonna be the case.

And, you know, ultimately,

you know, the these type of, like, missteps or whatever, they happen. But if you wanna say that, like, okay, like,

big, high net worth individuals are not gonna allocate to Bitcoin because of this,

Like, that's absolutely just a fucking bear. That's absolutely


Like, guys, look, the Bitcoin conference, first of all, like, we let people on stage in full ski masks and weird ass masks. Oh, so you don't run Bitcoin? Like

but, no. Like, we we let green man at on like, guy in all green men,

like, outfit on stage. Like Gigi's a fucking legend. Whatever. Like, hey. If you wanna come up in a carrot mask and, like, you wanna preserve your privacy, we let you. We take you seriously. That's the whole point of Bitcoin. So, like, don't say, like, we need to simp to

these high net worth allocators that can't take Bitcoin seriously enough because there's some guy dressed up on stage doing something they don't like. Like,

it's absolutely ridiculous. And some people who were loving that criticism against us, you know, I don't even wanna necessarily get into that, but I don't think that they're they're coming from from the an

a an appropriate perspective,

in any way. So,

you know, ultimate, like like, that's bearish. You know, Bitcoin is Bitcoin adoption is gonna happen because of 2 things, need or greed. Okay? And it has nothing to do with what people saw on stage. And, ultimately, like, look at this event. It's freaking Comic Con meets Bitcoin meets Consumer Electric Festival. Like,

it's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be fun, and we have people on stage

not necessarily in

suits. That's okay. Fuck the suits. Like like exactly. My policy would be no suits allowed. But okay. So, like, if you wanna, like, if you wanna hold the double standard against us that, like, we not only have to, like, have NIMs wear whatever they want and be comfortable on stage, and we also have to, like, always, like Try to choose between Wizards. You know, it I choose Wizards. Okay. Well, there you go. There's Matt. So It's hard to have a set framework.

Again, well, we can't please everyone. You know? It's it's you either make, you know, an open source event for people inside the events or, you know, you get flamed because there's wizards on stage or there's not enough suits or there's too many suits or the politicians are saying too many nice things about Bitcoin.


The timing argument is bullshit. The timing argument is, like, if you run an event, like, you first of all, you see 2 things. First of all,

actually timing everything out is a fucking pain in the ass. And then when you get towards the end,

any little movement, you have to contact so many different stakeholders along that chain. Like, if you move one panel, that's okay. That's 4 people. You gotta move them somewhere else, and you have all these

Every movement is gonna be different. It yeah. It may Especially at the end. It is fucking insane. And the RFK thing came at the last minute, the timing stuff, you know, whatever. The second thing is

a lot of people you would just not expect,

the egos are fucking real deal you have to deal with people. You have to deal with people, and you have to deal with scare stage space. Like, it is fucking hard. I have

I have

so much respect


sympathy. I think sympathy is the right word for for p running the programming,

last year, and Alex McShane and Nolan running the programming this year. Like, they have to deal with so many egos and moving pieces with all these different pieces.


I have no concern. Honestly,

my as far as wizards go, I just think Udi can go fuck himself. That's just my own that's my own personal opinion.

But the timing stuff, like, is absolutely ridiculous.


You know, if you're mad at us about the timing, you know, be mad at us about making the RFK thing happen. You know, that because, hey, you know, at the beginning of the RFK thing, if you if anyone wants to take credit for the RFK thing happening, whose name did did RFK mentioned at the beginning of this speech?

You mentioned David Bailey's name. So that's all you need to know is it it was a long speech for me. Yeah. It it it it it was I literally watched it on the news desk. You know, it

we we were making that happen, guys. Like, he's the one who delivered the words, but we set the stage. And and, like, the complexity in setting the stage, it it's not easy, and it's like people are like, oh, go smaller. It's like, well,

the only reason, like, that guy's security is okay with him showing up to that building is because they know this security that we hired that is working this level scale of events. Right. Like, it's like

like, these things don't just happen Like RFK doesn't show up to a 1,000 person event. No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. He needs to know that it's the right audience. He needs to know it's the right scale, and he needs to know that the production and the security and the professionalism

are at the right level. And, again, like, that happens all the way down the line. And, look, like, again, I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about, like, what is our actual ambitions,

like, with us doing this event? Like, what is BGC Inc trying to do with this event? Yeah. Because I think, like, frankly, there's a little bit of cognitive distance, you know, with people who attend the event, observe the event. You know, they, like, they they have their own goals in mind and what they want and what they, like, try to imagine into the conference.

But, like, we're on a mission too. Like, you know, we wake up every day to do this for a reason, and we have a goal too. And I think it's important to, like, for our audience to know our goal, and maybe we haven't done a super good job communicating that goal. But But I think it's important that we do that so that way people understand what we're trying to do and and can kinda understand our decision making.


No. Yeah. That makes sense to me.

We have fic221

in the comments saying excited for tab Comp. Everyone should go to Tap Comp. It's a really amazing event in Atlanta in the fall.

By the way, a lot of people don't know, it's not named after


the old time soft drink tap. It's actually the Atlanta Bitcoin conference.

So it's in Atlanta. Great vibes.

A huge shout out to Tidwell,

and team And co. There's a there's a team behind there. There's a huge team. People people hitting me up, asking me for stuff. Yeah. You know? Yep. There's a huge team over there. You shout out to them. Go check it out. I mean, one of the cool things about Bitcoin is that we have so many different events, and we have so many different



platforms and podcasts and shows. And, like, people don't realize, like, in terms of Bitcoin only stuff,

3 years ago, 4 years ago when we started rabbit hole recap four and a half years ago, I know it's hard to believe there was, like, 3 Bitcoin only podcasts. That was that was less than 5 years ago.

So it's really cool seeing I wasn't even disappointed with that. Only. No. Yeah. You were I was doing POV crypto. My Shake Corner friend.


I I was friends with your Shake Corner friend. Come on. Come on. I was just a big side of this. Yeah. Anyway


Absolutely. People should listen to the POV crypto we did

way back when about Ethereum proof of stake. I think it's aged really wonderfully.


no one's being no one's giving us freaks. You're not, like, giving us real questions or comments in the thing. Are you fine with me going continuing on my Please. Please. Inner criticism?


If you wanna hit me with the criticisms, if you wanna represent freaks, can I just say, you know, we sue we are big fans of TabConf? You know, no no one is a bigger fan and supporter of the different Bitcoin meetups and Bitcoin conferences that are happening around the world, you know, than us. So, we do our best to support,

not sometimes it's a lot, sometimes it's a little.

Every event organizer, you know, wants Bitcoin Magazine involved,

in what they're doing, and they want, you know, to to take inspiration from our conference and we support all of them. So,

you know, we appreciate the Bitcoin community, appreciate the TabConf, appreciate the Block Boom, appreciate

Pacific Bitcoin. Appreciate,

Baltic Honey Badger,

BGC Prague,

Bitcoin Indonesia, like,

named a lot. You know? So,

big love to all of them,

and big love to all the meetups for sure. So, I I think it's about expanding the pie. Like,

hardcore Bitcoiners, best practicers should be able to hang out. Right? And the same group of people, the same people who are building the industry

should be able to come together and have a big industry event and talk to other people too. Like,

you know, as far as I'm concerned, like, we are expanding the pie and, like, here's why Bitcoin is so effective because it kinda has this funnel. Right? So the Bitcoin conference is really freaking useful

at the top of the funnel. Like, that is what we're trying to build, and that's why I think it's important to talk about that.


Yeah. And, also, you've never run a 15,000 person event until you run a 15,000 person event.


on the meetup side, huge shout out to George McHale.


championed a lot of the meetup,



at the org,

and I thought the Bitcoin games was really cool.

He had, like, the Bitcoin games where all the different meetup organizers were competing,

kind of like the Bitcoin meetup Olympics at the event. Site. And to me, like, that is, like, one of the most bullish,

fundamentals of Bitcoin is That was partially The grassroots Bitcoin community. That was partially inspired by the Bitcoin Park, grassroots Bitcoin. We're doing it again in September.

Grassroots Bitcoin, meetup organizers

only from around the world. And we had George there, and he presented, and,

it was great. But, anyway, that was awesome.

So, I mean, I think the wizards are mostly a distraction. Like, once again,

I have my own issues with Udi. Don't think he acts in good faith.


I think, you know, Eric is one of my favorite shit corners. Like, I don't have much issue with Eric, but that's besides the point. I've learned a lot from Eric. I think that's mostly a distraction. I've learned I've learned a lot from Udi too. I don't have Udi Derangement Syndrome, but at the same time, like, I could see why people don't like him. And I think it's, like, maybe it's, like, almost the same energy as why people don't like Trump, you know? Because, like, Trump can't do good or bad things. People have Trump Derangement Syndrome,

you know, but Trump's kind of a bully. He's maybe not super honest. Maybe he treats people the wrong way. You know? I I I kinda categorize them in in some more buckets. Udi, if you're listening to this, you know, you you might be offended by that, but, you know, I think it might be accurate. The difference is, like, I was never friends with, with Trump.



I was I was friends with duty. I respected duty, and then he just started gaslighting me. But that's once again, I think that this is this is distraction.


Can I just say that, like, you know, Udi may have done that? Other Bitcoiners do that. Like Oh, I understand. Like And they can also go fuck yourselves. Characters, characters, characters. They can also go fuck yourselves.

Our event is we're we're we're honing in on what is a relevant conversation. That's our number one objective with the programming.

We will do that boldly. We'll do that in the face of criticism we've done in the past. We'll continue doing this in the future. I look forward to the Taliban being on stage. I know Bailey is when he says it. The least favorite thing. My least favorite thing David Bailey ever says is saying that, man. But, he said it right here in the studio on dispatch. So hey. You know? I've said my piece on that. I'm I'm down to continue talking about it if you want to.


The wizards are distraction.

My bigger issue


Stacks people on stage is,

Bobby Lee of Ballet Crypto on stage during industry day. Mhmm.

It's this balancing act of, yes,

you know,

sponsors pay the bills. They're the ones who make this type of event possible, but, like, where do you draw the line on, like, who is welcome on stage and who is not welcome on stage?


Yeah. I know. So we this year, we tried to do,

this idea of, like, doing, like, an industry press release at the end of industry day,

and kind of just trying to, like, manage that,

too because, you know, people wanna get on stage and talk to the, media, talk to the audience, talk about their products. Right. You know, our editorial

and sponsorship criteria


we we don't

like, we we don't have the ability to technically audit every product. Yeah. Right? So I think that there's products,


are widely known by Bitcoin enthusiasts as, like, not necessarily being up to their snuff.

I think there's products that most likely are at our event that

are less known that aren't up to snuff too that we don't necessarily get grief for. Yep.

It's difficult, you know, again, like, when you're trying to run a business, like,

one, attracting sponsors that fit our sponsorship criteria,

giving them what they want, you know, which is everyone and their mother wants stage time.

And then Everyone wants stage time. And and then doing it in a format that, like,

you would say is responsible. You would say, you know, other people would say is acceptable,

whatever. So, like, we're definitely trying to, like, tow that line and figure out, like, what makes the most sense both, you know, maximally commercially and and and maximally

in terms of, like,

what's responsible on stage,

we are continuing to experiment. Like, I don't wanna talk about a specific sponsor just because

I don't wanna isolate any specific sponsor.

But we're trying to experiment with, you know, our criteria and experiment with, our programming

policy and format

and how we manage things to find the best of both worlds. I think in some cases, like, moving forward, we're gonna have to bite the bullet. Like, there's gonna be have to be opportunity costs that we forego


because Yep.


It's what we need to do


for credibility,

for PR, for whatever.

And, like, there's gonna be other opportunities where, you know, we're gonna make game time decisions where we're, like, where we're gonna have to, like, understand what's happening more deeply and and try to, like, evolve our policy. Like, I think what people don't understand is, like, one, we're doing a

event where we have to interact with the entire ecosystem

and where we have to draw a specific editorial line, And then the entire ecosystem is constantly changing too. Yep.

It's, like, very fluid. It it's so fluid, and it's just, like, again, like, what people think is, like, the most obvious decision, like, this company equal bad,

like, it just depends on the criteria. So, like, for a lot of, like, what I would consider, like, hardcore Bitcoin enthusiasts, Bitcoin best practicers,

I think that there's some fair criticism.

I think that we can take that on the chin.

You know, my cop out is that

these business decisions are simply not easy to make, and every single iteration we try to make, we try to do a better job. And there's a lot of stakeholders like Bitcoin maximalists that attend our event are one of multiple stakeholders that we're dealing with. Our the conference organizers are other stakeholders that, you know, are dealing with the finance guys, the stakeholder,

business people in the space, people who are trying to move their initiatives forward, people who really believe in what they're doing even though

some Bitcoin Maximus don't believe in what they're doing. Like, all of these elements, we have to wait. So it's not easy.

We don't always make the right decision.

Things are always more obvious in hindsight.

And, you know, again,

going into next year, we're gonna be making decisions.

Right? Like, we're not we're not getting grief in this moment for some of the decisions that we should be getting grief for, honestly. The the 2 that I brought up, you don't really get much grief for. Sure. And the Yeah. I mean, I'm look, guys. There's probably more. And there's infinite places where there's, like, where we don't deserve grief, and there's infinite places where we knocked it out of the park where we don't get credit. It's fine. We take that in stride.


No. I mean, once again, I think the majority,

yeah, I'd it was a great event. It was a really good event. There's a lot of stakeholders. There's a lot of moving pieces. It's very difficult.

Matt, you're you're too kind to me. I mean, this is hard for freaks that wanna slay me? Like, what? What are these what are these freaks? You're brothers, so it's it's they're not being that critical of you, so I'm just being critical. Okay. That's good. Should we do it? Should we hype up Nashville?

We should, but I just I just wanna say that

you do agree with me that there's a responsibility

there about, like, who's on stage, and and as an org, we can do better about that. Like, I I think,

like, do you agree like, Mashinsky should have never been on stage.


I'm just gonna say the name because now he's just I've you know, there's no bridges to be burned there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So Mashinsky on stage. He was on stage at Bitcoin 2019. Yeah. I would say, like, the difference between Celsius and BlockFi

were not as obvious then. Yeah. And we're trying to run a business, and we're working with companies that operate

that operate using Bitcoin. Yeah. Right?


I would say, like, Masinski really started to, like,

show himself as, like, a not good actor.

And, you know, he was on stage,

and he was a sponsor.

And there's some, like, classic things. And, again, like, people in hindsight would say, like, things are more obvious, but there's just classic moments where as industries,

you know, evolve and, like, you know, making business decisions is not always easy. But,

you know, I was He was on stage last year too. Right? Well and then last year, he was supposed to go on stage with

the with, like, the the

technology minister of Ukraine or the innovation minister of Ukraine, and he did not have the right person. And he was trying to weasel his way on stage, and our boy, p,

blocked that. Yeah. Right? I remember that. And, again, you know, people don't understand, like, at Bitcoin 2021,

Mayweather, who didn't do a good job on stage and was never invited again,

He was trying to go on stage with, with a Ethereum Max shirt, and we blocked that too. I was standing back there Mhmm. And


you will never be able to capture

I wish you could. Brandon's face when he was trying to convince him to change his shirt. And, I mean, Mayweather's fucking huge. Fucking massive. He's wear it's not just an Ethereum shirt. It's Ethereum Max. It was, like, extra shit point shirt.

And, he got him to change the shirt. He was like, you're not allowed on stage unless you change the shirt. Bossy was there. So not only is Mayweather there, but seen this, like, straight white. Like, it was,

it takes a lot of bravery to do that. It takes a lot of bravery to do that. You agree with me that there's a responsibility to


I I don't know. I'm not saying it's an easy solution, but there's a responsibility to avoid,

you know, the next Celsius being on stage or being a sponsor of the event.


Like, do you agree that there's a responsibility there? Absolute look. I've never denied that there's responsibility. And pretty much I've just made excuses as on why it's not that obvious and why it's not that easy, especially given all the context of running the event. Right? So there's a lot of critics who, you know again, like, you can call Binance insolvent today and say you're never gonna do business with Binance today.


Like, are we gonna say no to doing business with Binance right now,

given, you know, that there are people on the Internet who are saying that they're doing things, like, wrong. Well, according to our editor and I'm sorry that I'm I'm mentioning a specific company. But according to our editorial guidelines,

we do business with companies that are

using the Bitcoin blockchain,

using Bitcoin natively,

so we don't allow wrapped Bitcoin to be counted. It has to be native Bitcoin usage.

We allow those companies, and we allow them Beyond Stage if they're relevant to the Bitcoin ecosystem.


if something got you know, who knows what will happen in the future happens to that business,


it's very and we had CZ on stage in, you know, in the future in between the app thing. Like, you could say that he was a scammer from day 1.

You could say that. Like, you could easily get us.

Are we going to make that opportunity happen? The given the fact that this is the most impactful


at spreading Bitcoin usage across the world.

Like, are we gonna, like

one of them, yeah, in terms of this the the No. I mean, they're dominated, especially in emerging markets. Like, I have to come out tomorrow. Dominate. They're they're banking more people than anyone else as far as I'm concerned.

Like, are we gonna host that conversation?

Yes. We're gonna host that conversation, especially if it's relevant.

So, like, I'm not saying, like look. Mashinsky was never at that level. Celsius was never at that level, but, like

and maybe it was obvious that, like, they were complete shit, and I I personally never would have put any money in them, and I would tell anyone, don't put your money in any yield,

you know, invest you know, any yields program at all. Like, hold your Bitcoin. Like, if anything makes sense. It's, like, stack less sense and focus more on doing it the right way. Yeah. Like, that would be my advice because you're not bullish enough. So you already know me,


like, could the like, again, like when you're doing this type of event, when you're trying to bring the entire ecosystem together, not just like the the best Bitcoin best practices together,

like, there's gonna be potholes. There's gonna be issues. There's gonna be areas where you made mistakes. In some moments, like, you can look back and be like, wow. That was a classic moment, like, Mayweather. In some areas, you look back and be like, god. Like,

let's never make that effing mistake again,

like Mashinsky.


we just have to we have to constantly take that feedback, and we have to we have to constantly try to hone in and tune the lever of, like, doing something big and profitably,

doing it well enough to bring in and entice new people, and and doing it to the level where it's going to,

be as useful and enthusiastic and exciting

to, like, the the people who are most bought into this ecosystem. Like, finding that mix and and nailing it, it's just not easy. We do our best. We truly do. I think we we are successful in many, many ways.

But in in other ways, you know, we have to do it better next

year. Like, there's no excuses there. We just have to learn and do it better next year.


Yeah. I mean, I I

I that that's,

I mean, we're definitely aligned on that front.

I but yeah. I you you answered the question very early on, and then you had a nice passionate rant afterwards.

Okay. There we go. But it just said responsibility to do better. It the the the name of the the word of the day on the this show today is responsibility.

Yeah. Well, say humble, sax hats, and be responsible. Like, you know, that's like the unspoken part. And it's difficult. Like I like I said, I respect those difficult. I've seen how the sausage is made.

Like, so many people on the team are family to me. Like, I just,

you know, it's it's I've I wanted to be clear that it it's coming from a place of of of love, and it's more of

a, like, a parent, I'm not angry, I'm just disappointed kind of framework. But,

like, dude, you're a brother. We have 15 minutes left. Shit. Going for a while. Yeah. We've been going for a long time. I

and it was a little bit too down down. You know? It's a good it's a good real talk conversation, but, like, what are we excited about Yeah. For Amsterdam? What are we excited about for Nashville? What are we excited about for Bitcoin? Let's wrap it up on the strongs.


Well, I mean, first of all, the conversations that I'm having with

Nashville stakeholders

and the people of Tennessee

about bringing this conference here,


Like, yesterday, I had a, like, hour long hangout with a die hard, long time Bitcoiner

that is building a media company in Nashville,

and this guy can't wait to just, like,


unleash, you know, like, both of his passions at once. This Nashville Yep. Bitcoin. And there's just so much of that. Like, you know it. You've been here for over a year. You've been building a business here.

There's just, like, this is the most fertile ground for it.

All of the elements of it are aligned. And then in terms of Nashville,

like, in Tennessee,

like, not only is, you know, in 2020

and 2021,

Nashville was not the hottest city in America. Yep. Miami was.

I think Nashville right now, it's in the top 3 or 4,

if not, like, number 1. Good. Yeah. Like like, Nashville is hot. Like, I've seen people who are like, oh my god. Miami is, like, more where it's at. I don't know.

Like, Nashville has never been more where it's at than where it is right now. Yeah. That's for sure.


What was it? Number 1, bachelorette city. Number 2, 3,

bachelor city. And it needs to become, you know Well, it's been that for a while. Right? It needs like, that's the next evolution. It needs to become the next Bitcoin city. I mean, I'll I'll tell you as someone pre Nashville,


I thought that Nashville was only good for

bachelor parties and bachelorette parties. Or

what do they what do they say in your hand and stag parties?

It's such a better name. Anyway, that's what I thought it was good for. Like, I almost kind of dismissed it as a city, But it's a proper city, and it's vibing, and it's and it's and it's the momentum is building. There's this very strong community here.

There's there's




Like, the city actually has real character. Cost of living is also low. It's very safe city.

You know, you can get live music every day of the week whenever you want.

We're coming from New York. Our airport is fucking awesome.

Marty, like, gave me shit on RHR this week, because that's where I went with it. I was, like, you know, we just have a great airport. And he was just, like, really? That's that's where you're gonna go with this? Our airport's fucking dope. So the sick thing about talking about New York and then talking about Nashville,


post COVID,

all, like, so many of the best Bitcoin or sorry. So many of the best New York restaurant tours All came down here. Went to Nashville and went to Miami.


Like, that's where they went. There's a bunch of places that So many Nashville. They only have two locations. They have a Brooklyn location and they have a Nashville location. Yeah. Yeah. East Nash, specifically.


Yeah. Which is Love East Nash. Nashville.

But, I mean, like,

Nashville itself,

I've been coming here since 2018 because Bitcoin Magazine was here before

it was cool, and it has just gotten so much cooler. And again, like, in terms of, like,


is more aligned with Bitcoin and Bitcoin only in the Bitcoin eco


than than Florida, in my opinion. Yeah. I mean, the street corners are deep in Florida. And and, like, maybe not even to talk too much,

you know, booty on Florida because Florida is awesome. Like, it really is one of the best states in the union, in terms of everything that it has to offer, especially for Bitcoin.


compared to Miami, Nashville is it's currently a Bitcoin hub, you know, thanks to you, thanks to Rod, thanks to Bitcoin Park, thanks to all the work that the Nash Bitcoiners and, you know, everything that is It's an amazing community.

It's awesome.

But, like, the people who aren't Bitcoiners are also

awesome and and and unique

and thriving on their own. Like, Tennessee and Nashville are thriving on their own because,

you know, like you said,

this is a business,

forward place. Like, you can run a business, you know, and we're throwing an event. We don't have to deal with unions nearly as much in Tennessee than we do in in Miami. And that makes a huge difference as a business in many ways. Like, we can get into the finances and logistics of that, but that makes a huge, huge, huge difference.

And, you know, when you want to go and you wanna eat out in Tennessee and Nashville, it's gonna be a lot more, you know, cost efficient. When you wanna go to hotels, it's gonna be a lot more cost efficient. And then in terms of the personality, the unique,

attributes of the city, like, I just can't think of a more unique interesting city right now than, you know, the music city epicenter, you know, the country music epicenter of the world.


Yeah. I will say that,

when I was in Norway,

for the Oslo Freedom Forum last year

I'm going this year. I'm sorry. Love it. It's really good. Wait. Unfortunately, I cannot make it, but

everyone should consider going. It's really it's it's

it's really as someone who goes to a lot of Bitcoin events, it's just really great because it's a freedom event

that has tangential

Bitcoin connections. So, like, a bunch of freedom focused Bitcoiners go there, but it's not a Bitcoin event. You get to meet all these activists anyway. But, anyway,

in Norway,

you say Tennessee, they have no idea.

They have no idea what you're talking about. But you say Nashville, and they go country music, country music. They get super excited about it. So, like, Nashville has some international recognition. I mean, it's definitely not in New York or Miami or LA,

in terms of international recognition, but I think it's growing. And I think,

yeah, I the people are super nice,

like, suspiciously nice.


I mean, I think we could turn this state into a city. Like, great water. That's the city that we're doing, bro.

You know,

respect for sovereignty and freedom, like, the the proof is in the pudding based on the fact that they too, like Texas, like,

Florida were open. I mean, we didn't even talk about for folks who wanna live here and move here from other states International. No income tax. It's beautiful. And, you know, it's fantastic and Low cost We didn't even talk about this, but you can get anywhere here in 15 minutes. It's fucking bad ass. Yeah. I think less 12. My my meme is 12 minute drive anywhere. I mean,

someone who grew up in LA

then lived in SF, spent a lot of time in New York and Miami. Like,

it's so nice

to be able to get to even the nicest restaurants

in 15 minutes, even get to your friend's house, 12 minutes, get to Bitcoin park, get to the office. And parking is easy too. Parking is easy. Coming from California and New York. Ubers are cheap, Not as fast,

but cheap. And, you know, there has to be some flaws. You know, the Ubers are twice as slow. I'm sorry, guys. They don't come in 2 minutes. They come in 4 minutes. More of a Lyft city. Alright. Let's I think you'll have better time on Lyft than Uber. You know, I use them both. I I our between them, but,


not price I don't know about price wise. I'm not like, Yeah. Matt's price insensitive here. A little bit price insensitive. But but Lyft is usually a quicker experience. Well, I have the the Lyft pink because I'm a dirty,


elite credit card user. So, you know, I get that premium lift. But, yeah, I mean, yeah. That feels good. I feel like, you know, I feel like we live here. We both moved here. So

we have you know, we're just like, oh, it's a great place to live. It's a great place to be.

But in terms of, like

this is a great place to party. Like, this is a great place to have a Bitcoin conference. People are looking at, hey. We got July 25th through 27th.

You know, it's gonna be warm in Tennessee. It'll be very hot. But, like, the whole event It's gonna be quiet. It's gonna be inside Yeah. All day long,

and then outside is t shirt weather. So I actually think it's gonna be awesome. It cools down at night really well. And I I'll throw out a tease here. I know that there's gonna be an incredible having event in El Salvador,

and nothing is locked in on our end. But the fact that the having is happening in the spring and our conference is happening in the summer

means we're gonna make something happen in the springtime around the having. So, you know, last having, it was a 24 hour livestream.

This having, you know, we're gonna do something in person. We'll figure it out. We'll announce it later. In Nashville? I don't know. We have No comment. Renouncing it? Nashville? No. I mean, Bitcoin 24 is in Nashville. That's gonna be July. So having parties somewhere else?

Just saying, like, there's adequate time to throw a having party. Yeah. You know, I know that PR and, you know, the CEO and everyone at the company is, like, fuck you, CK, for saying that on Matt's podcast. But, you know, there's adequate time. The timing works out fantastic. I have a better question. Okay. Yeah. Like, how are they


like, people are buying tickets, and, like, I love the meme factory crew. Like, fuck you, Greg. But

how are people buying tickets to the Bitcoin having party this early? How do they know it's gonna, like, block production isn't that predictable?

Oh, man. They're all gonna imagine, like, hash rates just soars from here, and the having happens 2 weeks before the time. Everyone's gonna be in El Salvador. They're gonna it's gonna be 2 weeks after halving, and they're gonna be


trying to solve it now. We will do our best if we do do a having thing to do it on the having.

We have experienced with the the 24 hour having livestream.

Yeah. But livestream's easier. Like, people aren't buying tickets. Totally. Totally. Easier. But I'm just saying, like, we already know how how volatile that ish is.

And, like, the thing is, like, this thing could could swing by 3 weeks in either direction Yeah. Right now or then. Like, it this thing can happen. That's what I'm saying. Don't plan too far ahead of the math. Happen in May. You know, there's a there's a lot of volatility here, and we don't know if Hash rate is gonna continue to spike or Hash rate is gonna nosedive. Like, we don't know yet. Yeah. I mean, the bullish side of me says it's gonna happen earlier than people expect. But either way, don't plan too far ahead of time, guys. Like, just


consider it. I'm excited for whatever the I could confidently say it's gonna happen before before Bitcoin 24. Oh, yeah. I mean, it definitely is. So we'll we'll do something. We'll do something. But, anyway, we will be celebrating at the park. So if you just moved to Nashville, you don't have to plan any timing. You could just come down to the park, and we could celebrate here. Shit. We're good to go. Oh, we're gonna have to compete then because we might have a party somewhere else. There's gonna be a lot of parties this Bitcoin having. I mean, dude,


I'm excited for havings to just turn into the new New Year's.

Yeah. It's the real New Year's. Like, I mean,

each epoch and when I like, this is something from Casey Rodemore, you know, the our beloved inventor of ordinals. I love it. But he pointed out, like, dude, the one of the most here's the thing is, like, for all the horn ordinals and ins and description disrespectors,

Casey is the salt of the fucking earth. Casey is one of the most Bitcoin people I've ever met in my life.

Casey has thought more Casey's a member of the park. Has thought more about Bitcoin,

and bit like, Bitcoin's

mathematical nature than most people. Yeah. And one of the observations he made to me, which I thought was absolutely mind blowing,

is the halving

and the block side or sorry. The, the difficulty adjustment do not align. They happen,

on different increments within Bitcoin



except for every 6 havings.

So this one? No. This is the 4th having. Oh. Yeah. So we're like, if you think of, like, Bitcoin having a full life cycle where it's just, like, you start so in 8 years, or 9 years or something? All the way until Bitcoin has its difficulty adjustment

and a and a halving on the same exact block, That's 6 having, so we're halfway there.

That's how fucking early we are. We haven't even got, like and there's gonna be many more of those. So are we planning that party? Or

Shit, man. I'm not that good at planning that party, but Salvador this week.

Yeah. But so I guess all I'm trying to say is, like point?

All I'm trying to say is, like, 1, you gotta, like like, Bitcoin has some mysterious shit. We are early as fuck. I I'm excited for having to be ingrained as part of, like, a human celebration

Yes. For the world.

And we're so early that we haven't even had a having that that,

happens on the same block as a difficulty adjustment yet. That happens after 6 having. So Every having We're only halfway to that milestone. Every halving is our biggest halving.


Everyone. But significant margins, like, the jump up, the 4 years in between or whatever,

huge jump up. 2nd of all, having is not priced in yet. Like, I know Joe Weisenthal just finished his mint the coin stick.

Joe, having is not priced in. I'm ready to do that next battle. I think we're about we're starting to get into the having priced in battle. I know you have to wrap.

This is great.


You wanna give some final thoughts to the audience real quick? I mean, the having isn't even priced into 37 sets, so, we're no one knows what the fuck is going on. And okay. Last thing.

To all the Bitcoiners out there who don't think that the best

developers haven't been born yet and don't think that Bitcoin's greatest utility has yet to be discovered,

you're all fucking bears.


Well, cheers to that.

Fuck the bears.

Love you all. Huge thanks to CK for joining us. Appreciate you freaks for supporting the show. I got some great shows lined up. I'll see you soon. Thank you. Stay humble and stack sets. Appreciate you, CK. Stay bullish.