The Journey of an Entrepreneur: Insights from Arthur Bavelas interviewed by Cate Wilkes.

0:00 Hello, Welcome everybody to another episode of Arthur's Round Table. Super grateful to have you here today. And also big shout out to the Family Office Insights community for paying attention to what we do here and sharing it as you have. Really grateful for that. So we're going to do something a little different. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but you're going to find out if you stay tuned. Kate, thank you for doing this. Yeah, absolutely, Arthur, I am delighted to be here. Thank you for indulging me in this. The opportunity to to interview you. We met some time ago, maybe over the last many months, but certainly not more than a year ago, and just developed kind of a good friendship and sort of aligned on some uniqueness in terms of similarities in authors and the type of books and genre we like to read and type material we like to lean into. And as I've got to know you, I thought to myself, you know what, you are so good at interviewing other people and really diving into the brilliance in other people. I wanted to do that with you today and just. Seek not to to disappoint.

1:12 Well, you know, I hope that this could be just an informal conversation about who you are, what has made you so successful, why you still stay in the hunt. There's a rigor to what you do. Even just this podcast with Arthur's roundtable, there's a rigor to it. There are people behind it that you lead and manage. And So what I would love to do is just start out with an open-ended question, which is really around giving us a little bit insight or maybe telling your story in a way that gives us a little bit of insight into what drives you today. Tell us a little bit about that and your story. Yeah. So I think it's really simple and maybe illustrated best by my sister asking me a question. Where are you now?

1:55 You left Manhattan during COVID and you're in Colorado or something. And my sister's a super interesting, unique personality. Aside from being my sister, she's hyper talented artist. And her name is Aphrodite, which caused all kinds of problems while she was growing up. And she has blazing red hair. And so she was picked on early on because she was so talented and smart. But anyway, she asked me the question, you know, so you're retired now. And she never had a real grasp of what I did for a living because it was not really amorphous to those of us that are in the business world and kind of the silo that I operate in.

2:42 But it was an anthem. But to her, like, she, you know, what are you doing now? So anyway, she asked me if I was retiring and I said, why would I do that? Like, what's that mean? Because I'm doing pretty much exactly what I want to do. We isn't that the idea of retirement, Right. And so it is an enriching life. And I don't mean to be too crazy about saying it that way, but I get to speak to interview people like you and speak to people like you and see amazing entrepreneurs regularly and fund managers and learn deeply about things and learn the peripheral and the peripheral nature about things as well. And it, it is, it makes for a, a, a nice way to spend your time aside from, you know, figuring out the game of monetizing things. I mean, it is just a game.

3:30 And so it's exciting to be able to connect the dots and make things happen. And if I and I stopped and thought about it, when she asked me the question, I said like, what's retirement? What would retirement look like for me? I could move to part of the time to Utah and buy a ranch and enjoy the nature while I'm doing that on a race. So I don't think I need to retire to do that, right? Yeah. So it was just, it didn't make any sense to me, but I got it, totally got it. Why she thought maybe that to be the case? So to answer your question, it's just it is an enormous amount of fun and it's enriching and it produces money and I have great relationships with people and I continue to build them and it makes life really enriched.

4:16 Yeah, it's, but it's interesting how we see people through the lens of our own understanding. So she has one understanding of what retirement is supposed to be, but it's really what we're learning. I think as as we're evolving as a society that it's not that way. There's not one definition. It's what works for Arthur, what works for you in terms of what you want to do with your time. So we're always this ambitious. Like growing up, were you always this ambitious? Yeah, I, I, I thank you for sending along some questions because I thought about them, but not for very long. And I will admit that there is, there was a point in my life where my father, who was unlike most Greek immigrants, he wasn't an immigrant.

5:00 He was born here, but he was largely an immigrant, would start a diner, work in a cash business, make a fair amount of money, take care of their family. And, you know, it worked for a lot of Greek people, whether it was a grocery store or whatever. And he didn't do that. He ended up working in a paper mill that his father worked in, in the middle of nowhere in New Hampshire, where I was born, and end up being, you know, a skilled paper maker and never owned a business but always worked for somebody. And so the background is only to tell you that in his 50s, he got fired or let go or whatever you want to call it, not for doing anything bad, but for whatever reason.

5:41 And that was the end of his career in his 50s because nobody at the time wanted to hire him. And so he lamented and suffered as a result, not financially because he was fine. But you know, his his ego was shot. Like it really cut him to the quick. And so I was young and but it really ended up putting an imprint on me saying, yeah, I am going to do my best to never allow somebody to take my name off the door. And so that's really what's caused me to.

6:22 And I've had wild failures and, you know, miserable times in my life economically, thankfully, just to have economically, not like my kids have suffered or anything like that or family. And aside from him, he ended up, you know, putting on a lot of weight, had a stroke in the last 25 years. His life was in a wheelchair. And it was, you know, stress related, health related, you know, all that kind of stuff. But he had a miserable the last 25 years of his life. And so did his wife, my mother. And so I just, yeah, I said, there's no way that's going to happen to me. And so even though I've had, you know, times where I was broke with three kids, it didn't matter.

7:06 I was not going to let you know somebody else dictate whether I had a way of making a living or not. Yeah, that's really powerful. I it, that example was really powerful for you. I could see how that would drive you to want to have control over your destiny. And so many people leave control outside of themselves. And the only, the only place that leaves us is to be at effect if we have control, if control is with someone else, whether it's a boss or organization or anything, the only thing that we can be is that effect a victim. Exactly. And listen, there's nothing wrong with getting a job and taking care of your family.

7:48 I'm not not for me, right? And you know you can. I told my kids that they all came out of school and worked hard and got jobs and, you know, found their way in the world and are totally launched and doing well. But I said one of the things I've learned is if you're going to get a job, and I used the Goldman Sachs trade, I say you work at Goldman Sachs for 10 years, they make $300 million. You walk out with 10, but you walk out with a Rolodex that you couldn't build in any other way but on their brand, and shame on you if you don't do anything with it.

8:29 That's OK, right? In my view, this is just my view, and that's what I told him. I said if you want to go, go somewhere where you can build something that when you want to go out and launch it on your own, that you have the benefit of having done it with somebody that helped you make connections that you would otherwise not be able to make. Yeah, such wise advice. That's I. Mean I'll do that, but some version of it, right? It should be on the graduation list of every college graduate, you know, because we can't, we, we, we can recoup money. We can't recoup time, but that's safe advice. I love that. Let's turn to a defining moment. I, I have a question here that I want to ask you. Was there a single decision or moment that changed the trajectory of your life more than any other? A single moment in the course of your career. I would say was that thing with my father, but in terms of supporting that, I mentioned that was, you know, had a really failed business and I was broke and had three kids and I had to figure out.

9:33 So, you know, it's kind of like the alcoholic, you know, down at the bottom and there's no way but up. And so pulled myself up and figured it out. And so I think having embarked on the entrepreneurial journey and failed at it, if further, some people would say, holy shit, I'm not doing that again. But it further enhanced my willingness to say, OK, I've got to make this work. And of course having children and you know, is is just a changes your life as many people know. Yeah, it it did for me as well. It sounds like it fortified you. Did you have people around you, Arthur, when you were going through that that you could turn to for support?

10:15 Did you have a support system during that time? I had good friends that were that were successful entrepreneurs that said just keep on going. My wife at the time was reasonably supported, supportive and was on my side, so that was super helpful. My family, not so much. So because they didn't they didn't get it right? No, aside from that, not really. So you were really the first one in your family to venture off as an independent, as an entrepreneur? Yeah, two sisters, one of the one I mentioned, and she's, you know, married, a great guy, two kids, wonderful life, smart, an artist. So there's no business acumen there. But her husband's a great guy.

11:04 My other sister sort of is not even close to being entrepreneur, just sort of plodded along in life. But yeah, that was the only one. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, neither one of my siblings nor not that not only did they not know what I was doing, they had no idea of what I was going through. Not a not a single thing. I don't really pat myself on the back. But they prospered as a result because I made money and I helped them, right? So. Yeah, yeah. But you carried that weight. It sounds like you carried the majority of that weight on your own. When you have a family and things in the business world aren't going as planned and you have to pivot, it's a lot of responsibility.

11:52 And so kudos to you, you know, when you already have. So I'm, I'm just going to take a leap and say you're at a point in your life where you could do what you want, when you want. And that if you decided tomorrow to go horseback riding for the rest of your days, you could do that. So when you already have more than enough, what still makes So we've touched on some of this, but what still makes you get up early, lean in. I know that you have a thirst for learning you that you love to read. What do you think is driving you at the stage? It's different than what drove me at earlier stages, but the longevity is a reality, right? It's there's only 32 1/2 four years left and what am I going to do with them, right?

12:39 There's nothing I can do about that except do the things, you know, eat well, exercise, you know, be mindful of, you know, really be mindful of the most valuable asset and that's your time. And so it's a it's not just, you know, carving out the time to go to the gym because you know, it'll help and making sure that you well, because you know it's going to help. But also I don't want to do that. Like I'm just not going to do it, right? I'm not interested. I'm not rude about it. But if I'm at a cocktail party is somebody starts blathering nonsense, I just move on, right? I just, I'd rather just go somewhere else, do something else, right? Talk to me else or go home and read a book, right? So I think that right now a lot of it's like, OK, then I admit I'm driven by making more money.

13:32 I like the idea of making more money. And it's not just for me. My daughter said something to me that was, I can't even remember what it was, but it was, you know, you know, what about this and you know what, what about, you know, the effects of this? And it was something that we didn't agree on. And I said, I don't care about that for me. I care about it for you. Like I'm not doing it because it's going to affect my life. It's going to affect your life, right? So, and it's sort of a perfunctory point of view with parents is that you want to make sure your kids have, you know, do well and have what they need and you know, have a good life. But it's true. I mean, it's not that I'm going to give the money to the kids and that's why I'm doing in this is I want to, you know, money is freedom gives you options, right? Like I had a estate planning lawyer that I used for one of my early estate plans.

14:29 And I said, you know, he was, we were friendly enough that I said to him, he said, what a miserable way to make a living doing estate plans for people. And he goes, you're right. And I said, you know, how did this all come about? And he said, well, if my parents had told me that there was some money there for me to start a business and there was, but they didn't tell me I would be doing something much different than this. And I had to do this because I didn't know I had an option. So he, he was lamenting that had he known that he could launch a business, even if it was failed, if it would have been a great education process, He was lamenting that he wishes they had made a different decision when the time is right. Because one of them launched Remake has launched a business and they're wildly successful.

15:19 Actually, both. Two of them, one of them I helped finance, one of them I didn't. So I want to give them those options, you know, so they can create. You know, I have a friend of mine that wrote a book and it's about people who have money don't realize that they can. They worry about things that at that stage in their life, at certain stages in their life, that maybe they ought to not worry about it anymore and think about living their best life. Like, OK, you've got 30 million bucks, enjoy it, right? Don't don't worry about all the stuff that you worried about while you're making the $30 million because you're at a different point. So that's what I hope to give them is the that that optionality. Yeah, that's beautiful.

16:06 That's beautiful. And you're, you know, you're passing on so much more than just the option and the opportunity or you're passing on as the mindset. And it's just like the, you know, the individual that she's 30 million. As an example, someone who has a net worth of $30 million might still be thinking about the fear that they had when they were just starting out, even though the numbers are, are vastly different. It's the conditioning that happens during those times when we're life is heavy and that heaviness can stay with us if we're not aware of it. So another thing that you're you're passing on, it's just a beautiful mindset of this idea of freedom. And yes, money gives you options. It's not the answer for everything, but it definitely gives you.

16:51 Definitely gives you options, yeah. Options. Yeah, I think that's one thing we have in common. Money motivated and mission driven. There the there's often an axiom saying people say, well, it's not about the money. Well, when someone says it's not about the money, it is about the money, right? And when someone says I don't think about it in terms of money, it's true. It's because you have money when you don't have money. It's a completely different construct, right? It's easy to say it's not about the money when you have it. So you know, when, when some rich people say you know, it's not about the money, I'm not buying it most of the time.

17:34 Yeah, it is a shift in perception for sure. Let's turn to beliefs. I want to hear a little bit about your beliefs around the world. What are the beliefs that you hold in terms of where we are in the world? Maybe something that might be a little bit more, not necessarily aspirational, but visionary, so where we are in the world now, beliefs that you hold that most people don't see yet. So I know you have a strong intuition and I know that you're a visionary. Why are some beliefs? That get carried away. Yeah. So I'm dyed in the world of American. I think this is the best country in the world. And I've been to many others and I think that people who haven't travelled have a disadvantage because it doesn't take long when you travel to other parts of the world to see how much different this is.

18:27 I mean, it's immediately obvious and depending on where you go. So I think that 250 year experiment, while it's not perfect, is pretty darn good. And I think that it's like what I think it was, Alexis de Toefl said capital and capitalism is the worst construct of them, except for all the others, right? Something like that. So it's not perfect. And we have the thing that we have here that is much different than other parts of the world that I've not only been to but done business in is that graft is a way of life in other parts of the world. And rule of law doesn't really come into play in many parts of the world. And so we have a huge advantage here, not only that we have a large population, but we have rule of law. That's not perfect, but you can count on it on some level. And other parts of the world just depends on who you pay off. And that, you know, everybody talks about leveling the pant playing field.

19:32 That playing field in other parts of the world is nowhere near level right, because if you don't have the right people and it's, it's true here about right people, connections and money, but you're so far, there's no way to get out of misery in some of those other parts of the world. At least there's there's the opportunity to do that. So I think that, I mean, aside from that overreaching view that I think we're so lucky that we're, we're, I think we're on some sort of trajectory to keep it that way. Not to get political about it, but I think that we dodged. Just a big bullet, you know, had had the current administration in whatever form it would have been in, would have been, you know, would have been a complete disaster and may not been a recoverable event. But I mean, that's just my opinion and it's opinion that's I've done.

20:26 So you have read a lot, right? I've dug really deep on what really is going on behind the scenes and it's ugly, right? Even in this administration, it's ugly, but it can get really out of control. Had it. We continue to allow the cycle of money to and you know, just a good example is, you know, all the contributions to political campaigns is just, you know, and many times money laundering that just loops back around and funds the the person that you're supporting in the campaign because they arranged for you to get that money through nefarious means.

21:09 I mean, I'm not making this up. This is the way the world works in in this in large part. And so I think a lot of that can be thwarted and still maintain a safety net with people. And so really found the political thing. But it's not your fault. My fault. It's OK, Yeah. No, I I understand what you're saying though. It is, you know, we're in a time, we live in a time when, when we have to do our own due diligence, are we? Can't believe anybody. Yeah, to be independent thinkers. I think one of the things I love studying Napoleon Hill and one of the things he always talked about was being an independent thinker. Even raising my son, teaching him not what to think, but how to be an independent thinker, how to get curious, how to politely challenge points of view where maybe something didn't cig right.

22:01 Because we all, like I said before, we all come from our own worldview. What we think is. Our life experiences, our worldview. I think what you're talking about is the lack of teaching critical thinking. Because that's really what matters is OK, If you say it's that way, explain to me why. And Kate, I didn't interrupt you, but I give a lot of people a pass because if you're busy working 9:00 to 5:00, Rob, picking up Johnny and going to soccer, making sure dinners on the table, getting up next morning, doing it all over again, you don't have time to dive deep into that may warrant that. And so oftentimes people will attach themselves to an ideology that supports what they think is the right thing, but often has no basis in them doing the critical thinking to support that.

22:58 It just echoes what they think is true, right? And I don't blame them because, you know, we only have so much time, right? Yeah, It is the case when somebody's in a situation where they're captured by some ideology. It's just a lot easier to go along with it if it feels good, right? Yeah, yeah, either if it feels good or if it taps into fear. People are driven by fear as well. Yeah, totally. So the fear of something, the fear of something happening or not happening, it's real. And you're right, it's it's very palpable. I kind of missed the days when you could watch the news and it was just the reporting of the news.

23:39 And then you got to think for yourself whether it was Gravatt I. Think that's gone? It wasn't the drama and sensationalism that there is now. No spin. Well, it is a natural outgrowth of capitalism. Capitalism, which is bad, right? So we have good things and bad things, free markets, you know, pretty good model capitalism, pretty good model socialism. Some people would argue, I'd say we all know it's failed. Communism, of course, has its. And so what's happened, it's really simple if you pay attention. Is that the narrative on the network news? Let's say all of it is based on who's paying the bills. If you just follow the money, why? Why do pharmaceutical companies advertise all these drugs on TV? It's not because they hope that you're going to go to your doctor and ask for that drug.

24:34 That's the farthest thing from their mind. What they're doing is paying off the network by advertising so they don't do an expose about how bad the drug is. Yeah. So I mean that is not rocket science to figure out, but most people aren't going to connect that those dots. You know, they don't have this is not in their scope to even think like that. I heard today that one of the Super Bowl ads is from a pharmaceutical company, and I think it's probably the GLP 1, you know, the weight loss. Item. We didn't, yeah. Yeah. But interesting that that they have an ad. I think that ads are 8 million for 30 seconds or something like that. So it'd be interesting to see what that looks like. But I want to turn, I want to turn our conversation really to legacy and meaning because I think this, you've touched on a lot of this, your journey as an entrepreneur and the resilience that it takes to get through those times when you know, you had young kids and things weren't going as you had hoped. But really picking yourself up and moving yourself through that to be able to create the life that you have today, which is really, really powerful.

25:46 So my question is this, it's if the businesses disappear tomorrow and only your impact on people remained, what would you hope that they would say about you? Yeah, thanks for asking that question. Super uncomfortable, Yeah. I don't mean to be like mushy about it, but thoughtful and kind person. Yeah. The business stuff is just in our current construct, the way to buy freedom. You know, many of the businesses are super interesting to me and I'm somewhat passionate about some of them and not so passionate about the others and really passionate about some. So I don't have a desire that, you know, I built X or AWS or Amazon and that was my lasting legacy.

26:33 I, I just hope that if I had interactions with people, they would think I was thoughtful and kind and in some way or enriched their lives. And I don't see it like if I build this huge thing and that was my legacy, I don't look at it that way. Yeah, it's more the the human aspect of of who you are as a person. I think that's what, you know, when we talk about authenticity and genuineness and vulnerability and all the wonderful things that Parne Brown and others talk about. I think most, for me, most of authenticity or really all of authenticity is just being who you are and being comfortable with who you are. And I think you impact.

27:14 That's one of the things I really admire about you, Arthur, is that you do impact people, but in a way that's only you. It's truly who you are. I appreciate that. And how hasn't always been that way? By the way, for the record, on this recording, I've been a bad dad. I've screwed people out of stuff. I have not made all the right decisions. You know, I've done bad things in my life, right? Not necessarily with intent, just circumstantial, right? And that's not my excuse. I'm just saying I could have done better on a lot of things, right? But, you know, I think the hazard is not learning from those things. Yeah, it is. I I really believe that's true, that everything in our lives, whether we look back and think, wow, I would not do that again or I would do that totally differently. I think there's, there's so much value in staying in the lesson. It's one of the things I talked to my son about. He's 29.

28:13 He's a fire pilot. And you know, when you're in the government structure, you're kind of in a structure. And he's very entrepreneurial, very, very creative. And I told him, I said, don't miss the moment, the opportunity that you have now to learn lessons from the environment that you're in. Good advice. I hope he's taking it in, but they're they're I believe there are lessons that he will go on to use with his own son. He they have a little boy. I have a grandson a year and a. Half. Yeah, Great. And I, and they are. It's the story of your life, just like what you were saying about the story of your life with your dad and watching your dad go through his struggles and how that shifted his life. Yeah, totally.

28:58 It was. It was Had he done a little bit more self work again, I'm not blaming him. It's it is what it is, but he probably would have bounced back better from that had he done a little bit of more what we were we talk about, right? You know, I think we talked about this before, but you know, Joseph Campbell, you know, one liner life is full of sorrow. Embrace it, right. Wow. Yeah, or even his work on the hero's journey, knowing that everybody has a hero's journey. We all do it. Just the color of the journey looks different. Maybe the duration of the journey looks different, but every one of us has a hero's journey where you get to a point and you have that breakthrough if you keep going. Like for you, Arthur, you didn't quit when things weren't going the way that you wanted them to go. Life was tough.

29:56 You had kids to support. You didn't quit. Yes. So give me kudos for that. But I also didn't have a choice, right? I had to do something. I could have gone and got a job, yes, that I didn't didn't submit to but. Yeah, Yeah. So you so you stayed in the rigor. You know, when I was raising my son, I raised him as a single mom and I deliberately decided that my life was going to be providing for us and providing for him and putting him in schools where he was able to speak freely and to think critically. And to. So for him, that environment was the right environment for him to put him in private schools.

30:36 I'm not saying that's right for everybody, but you have to know yourself and you have to know your children and what you're willing to do to get through. You know, how far are you willing to go? For me, that's you know, where we talked about the book Anti fragile. That's where we become have that inner fortitude resilience become anti fragile to life. And it's like the cedar tree. The cedar tree can really bend or the palm tree can really bend in Highwind, but it comes right back up. And I think that's a beautiful example. Do you think, I'm sorry, do you think that based on at the time that you did that there were in my view, if I got the time frame right, but putting your child in the right school so they could have, you know, proper education and think for themselves is that opportunity if you were bringing up kids today better, worse, the same. I always believed in putting him in the school that was right for him.

31:38 So I only have one son. I believed in putting him in the right school for him. There were plenty kids that went to the public schools that did really well for me. I needed that extra support system of a school that I knew had similar beliefs and values that I was trying to reinforce at home. So not only was the academic rigor much greater in the school that he was in, like when he went to college, yeah, it was a breeze for him because of the the work that he did in high school. But it was so much more than just the academics. It was his ability to formulate an opinion point of view independent from me. I mean, if he had a difference of opinion, that was totally OK in our home.

32:22 So you know what? I do it again today. What I what I put him in that school today. Absolutely. But he's talking about putting his son moving back to the DC area to make sure that his son gets to go to that school. Yeah. So I know it had a positive impact. But yeah, we have, you know, as parents, it's it's a test and learn a lot of times isn't. It times you just don't know. Yeah, I know, I know. Well, I have enjoyed speaking with you and getting to know you a little bit better. Arthur, is there anything else that you that we didn't touch on that you would love to share? No, but I really appreciate you doing this. You know, some people are uncomfortable talking about themselves.

33:05 And I think that I'm just telling you the way it is, right? It's not. I don't have any any secrets to speak of, you know? And I think that when I sit in a room or on this call with you, there's an energy that's unmistakable. And I think that part of what you're reading from me is that I can recognize other people that can read that energy. So you, when you're saying I'm being authentic, I don't have any other way of doing it. There was a time where I was not authentic because I didn't think, I thought I had to be something else, right? And so maybe I graduated, maybe I evolved, whatever it is, but I don't know any other way to be.

33:52 And I think when you and I walk into a room and we step up to somebody, there's no, no, you can feel the energy. And the more you do that and your radar is open for that, the more accurate it gets. Absolutely. A friend of mine put it this way. He said. The better you know yourself, the better you can see through people and not seeing through them in a bad way. But it's really, it's like a next level ability to understand people who they are and are their words and harmony with their actions and who they say they are. I think when you're sensitive to that energy you can pick that up if it's not congruent. Yeah, yeah, it's a good radar. Yeah, it is.

34:35 So though, the more you use it, the better it gets, right? Just like intuition. Yeah, absolutely. Somebody asked me, they said how do you know the voice, The difference between the voice of intuition and the voice of fear? Well, the voice of fear is generally very loud. The voice, this is the way I look at it, the voice of intuition, and it goes along with what you just said. The more you listen to your intuition and yield to that soft voice, it's a softer voice. It's like when my son calls, he doesn't have to say Mom, it's David. I know and I know his voice. So understanding what the voice of intuition feels like and how it speaks to you is really it's the skill that you can build over time. And super valuable I think. Yeah, absolutely.

35:17 OK, One closing question. This is a big question, OK? Super Bowl Sunday, Patriots or Seahawks? Seahawks. Awesome, I love it. It's because I know something. Not really. Well, wait a second. Should I have my money on the Seahawks then? Yeah, I would, Yeah. So if you lose it all, don't call me but. So you haven't met Mary, but Mary is. We're not married, but she might as well be. My wife is Brooklyn girl and she is athletic trainer by profession and doesn't do that anymore because it's a terrible way to the person that runs out on the field when somebody gets hurt. Terrible way to make a living. But she's super good trainer for me when we go to the gym and also physically fit and it looks fantastic.

36:03 But she is the big football fan in our house. I mean, I was only interested because I could go to football games and entertain people and have fun. I wasn't really a big fan, so I've become a big fan. So she says Seahawks. It's Seahawks. Nice. Well, I would say that she has a little bit of an inside eye for that, so I just hope it's a good game. Me too. Absolutely, Arthur, thank you so much. I really appreciate you and look forward to chatting with you again soon. Thank you for doing this, really appreciate it. My pleasure. Bye friend. Bye.