When Everything Changes Overnight: Finding Life After Loss | Laila France

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (00:01.263)
Hello, welcome everybody to another episode of Arthur's Roundtable. Super delighted to have Layla France with us today. And just for context, Layla and I actually didn't know each other, but I knew of her because I knew James, her husband, super well for a long period of time. And many of you may know James who are listening to this. and as is as

As I've experienced with James, he was super giving. And you know, we we always had a not only a good time when we got together, but he introduced me to lots of amazing people. And that was his shtick. He knew a lot of really interesting people, especially in the family office space. And I have a little story. He introduced me to Kristen Oliveri at the beginning of when we started taking Family Office Insights seriously. And she worked for me for many years.

Laila France (00:48.84)
Arthur Andrew Bavelas (00:57.795)
Doing a lot of the stuff that I had no idea how to do. but that was just one example of the people he so generously introduced me to. And so I have a big big strong feeling in my heart for for James. And so shortly after his death, my wife and I visited Layla in the grave. And so that's when we got to meet each other. So we didn't know each other only

From him mentioning you so many times. But yeah. Yes, he did. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about your backstory a little bit, and then we'll get into what happened with James, for those of those those that don't know, and then how you've pulled yourself up by your big girl pants, let's just call it that way, and you know, moved on.

Laila France (01:30.306)
glad he mentioned me that changes better yeah

Laila France (01:50.456)
Okay, yes. And how bad you want me to go? Back to when I met James or like where I'm from. Okay. And I just wanna say that with James, and first of all, thank you for everything you said about him. And yeah, that's totally him. And he was known as the guy who knows a guy that knows a guy. Do you know that? Like he put on a link there. We always joke with him, Kyle and I, because it was

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (01:54.414)
Whatever you're comfortable with. Yeah. Yeah, whatever you want. Whatever.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:12.468)
Yeah, right. Yeah. Exactly.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:18.329)
Yeah.

Laila France (02:18.665)
It was always like that. I always hear him saying, I know a guy who knows a guy every time on the phone. So he was a great connector. yeah, no, but first of all, I'm from Mexico. I was born in Mexico City and I live there on the north in Monterrey, near Texas, if anybody knows where it is, until I was twenty-seven and I met James when we were so young. He was seventeen and I was nineteen. and we met online.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:22.627)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Laila France (02:49.237)
And I have all this story. Yes. Yeah. I have it on on my book. That's probably gonna come next year. and yeah, we met through it was a website called ICQ that everybody were using, especially college students to contact each other, kinda like an AOL type of thing. And but it had numbers, didn't really have like a name.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (02:50.155)
I did not know this. yeah. Super cool. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Laila France (03:12.193)
Like right now is all sophisticated. And it wasn't a dating website, it just to connect, but I guess back then it will have been. So yeah, that's how we met randomly. And after a whole year of text messaging and sending pictures, and then talking on the phone, then we decided to meet physically. And it was during the millennium here in New York. and then our relationship started and I

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (03:12.345)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (03:39.137)
I went to UNBC in Baltimore to study there. And we continued. Then, you know, I went back to Mexico and I worked. He graduated. He worked. We postgraduated until he asked me for marriage. And then then I I moved to the United States. We moved in Virginia for two years. I worked there. He was working there. And finance, the finance war weather is not that great. So he moved to New York because of what he was doing.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (03:53.1)
Nice.

Laila France (04:07.83)
And that's how we ended up here in New York, really close to to New York City. and yeah, fast forward. I mean I'm I'm still here.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (04:16.887)
Yeah. Yeah, James and I spent a lot of time together, like he did with many people, because yeah, I lived in in Manhattan and he would always come in and you know, we would go to these family office events, but more importantly, just sit around and have cocktails shooting the shit. and I don't know if you know this, but not l long

Laila France (04:38.274)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (04:46.979)
Maybe it was a month before he passed. I was visiting Mary's sister with Mary in New Rochelle. And we I said, Are you here? And he Yeah. So we went out and had Do you remember this? Yeah.

Laila France (04:49.72)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (05:01.586)
Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I remember that he went in and then he's the one that that had buy the flowers.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:08.182)
Exactly.

Laila France (05:11.63)
Yeah, he told me the story, it was too funny. Mm-hmm. He was very giving James, I'm just wanting to say it, but yeah. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:12.277)
Exactly. Yeah, it was so great. So totally. So let's let's can we talk a little bit about we don't have to get into the details, but whatever. You know, you know all of a sudden James is gone, right? And and then I'm gonna just give a little context. Like one of the reasons we're talking, aside from me knowing James so well, was that

Laila France (05:24.311)
Uh-huh.

Laila France (05:28.759)
Yes.

Laila France (05:34.414)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:41.955)
You know, it's been what, how long has it been?

Laila France (05:44.654)
a year and like eight months, I think.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (05:51.312)
All right, so it hasn't been that long. And so shortly after we visited with you at the grave site, and just a f a f a few weeks ago, I saw a post by you. and we've said hi in the interim from time to time, but other than that, I haven't really checked in on you. but you have really done some interesting work not only for yourself but helping others

Laila France (05:53.068)
Ten months. Yeah.

Laila France (06:18.83)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (06:20.793)
figure out like if this happens to you, here's how I handled it and prepare yourself, right? In some way. Is that fair assessment?

Laila France (06:28.086)
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. yeah, so after yeah, Jens passed away. So he came back from a trip to India and just to give in that context too, he had acid reflux for like three days, which and I think that's important to mention because we thought it was that's what it was, acid reflux. We would have had it, and we never thought it was the beginning of a massive heart attack, you know, the body given signs. And

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (06:46.925)
Yeah.

Laila France (06:56.382)
He James actually needed after the autopsy came back a bypass six months before. So this was this was gonna be deadly no matter what. I mean, even if because I wasn't there when that passed, when that happened to James, and we were always thinking like I could have saved him, but no, it was the heart just completely gave in on him. And so he comes back, and you know, it's the third day, is

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (07:06.895)
Yeah.

Laila France (07:24.536)
February third and

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (07:27.051)
And normally when you come back from India you have all kinds of digestive problems and whatever, right? It's totally expected, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (07:30.935)
Yeah. Yes. That's what I thought. Like, my gosh, it was the food over there. Plus he wasn't feeling well. He actually had a cough going on and he got a fever. he was so tired and he came back on Saturday, so it's a weekend. And he thought like maybe on Monday or Tuesday he's gonna make an appointment to the doctor if the cough wasn't going away. The cough bothered him a lot.

But then I guess the acid reflex started to be more bothersome. It will come and go, which is another thing that how you will you even know? I mean, it's just one of those unfortunately, right? Those events that you just don't know. So yeah, so on Monday when I saw him, he was fine. He was having meetings and I saw him on the phone and moving around. But just before I went to a meeting at night.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:06.765)
Yeah. You don't know. Yeah, you don't know.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:11.972)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (08:25.1)
He did said to me like, it I it feels like it bothers me a lot. And I need to walk. Like if I'm sitting down and laying down, it like like I don't know, like it hurts. Like he falls all here. Yes. So that's what I saw him just walking. He said, Dad, I get him tea. And after he drank some tea, he did this like massive burp.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:37.728)
Agitated, yeah.

Laila France (08:51.36)
And he said, I feel better. And that's what I how left him. Like, my gosh, it was actually that's yeah, like how strange, right? It totally makes sense. It was the as a reflux, he already got it out and that's it. But now, I mean, I guess yeah, then after I came back, I you know, I found him later on the floor and that's one everything derailed from there.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (08:56.601)
Yeah. Yes, yeah. Totally. Yeah. Normal. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (09:13.261)
Yeah. So you know, I'm not asking you to relive this, but what what is it that you can share with people that you did to pull yourself together and say, Okay, I have to move forward and aside from all the minutia the paperwork and that nightmare that goes on for everybody, what was the

Laila France (09:17.859)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (09:35.438)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (09:41.239)
sort of epiphany that you had to say, Okay, it is what it is. I've got to operate. I have a son and things need to keep on moving here, right?

Laila France (09:46.51)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (09:51.735)
Yes. Yeah, no, it's your mind. you're so in fear in those moments and the loneliness that you experience is tremendous. And there's a part of you that says, I just if I don't do something now, like something's gonna happen. I just how am I gonna get through this? And I went into really deep depression for three months and I I could feel it on my head.

It it was so severe because this is and it's important to talk to because I kinda have a feeling of when people commit suicide, like you always think what is that they go through how they do it like this? You know, what what is it that they can?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (10:32.543)
Yeah, well yeah. How could it could it ever get that bad that I would consider that, right? Yeah.

Laila France (10:37.482)
Yes, yeah. And I felt the like a pressure on my head, like something that you just can't take it anymore. Like it's so I don't even know how to explain it, but you you wanna end that feeling. And it will come like at night and I guess when everything is more quiet. So what I started to do was calling a friend and then we will start walking and just talk about it.

And you know, went into therapy. I went I had a psychiatrist and and and a therapist as well. And they kept telling me you need to talk and talk and talk and the suspicion and just get it out. And this is why I started talking about it. And it it was yeah, the fear and the loneliness because it's tremendous. The the silence is awful. And I kept meditating and thinking, my gosh, I'm so young and I still have you know so much to leave.

And I have my son, like, how can I turn this around? Like, and and that's when I said I need to remove all negativity. I couldn't hear any news of that from anybody, or if somebody was sick, I could not hear it and I didn't want to hear it. And everybody that I felt would be like judging to me, or you know, I had to remove all of that. So I pretty much went quiet to myself and I shut myself from everybody and I started to exercise.

and I noticed, well, also because of that depression, I lost weight, but then during the summer I started to exercise and I'm like, you know, the clothes are feeling better. So okay, I'm gonna take care of myself. My therapist says, when are you gonna put yourself first? And I did my highlights and you know, I did shopping and I started to feel good. And this is when I I noticed that I need to do it for myself and and just feel good.

And that changed a lot with creating new memories as well. And yeah, I mean being with family and surrounded with people that can support you, and that happened during the summer, that's what pushed me to really okay, I I'm gonna be able to do this and and and share about it. And it did work. I mean, tremendously.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (12:58.777)
So it's really interesting, you know, there's an old Buddhist saying, and maybe other people said it too, but they articulated it as if you don't get all s settled with yourself, you're no good to anybody else. And you add a son. And what did your son say to you? that you shared with me? Yeah. Yeah. He told you loud and clear what he needed, right? Yeah.

Laila France (13:14.614)
Yeah, if if you if I don't see you crying, I'm gonna be okay. Which is up because I was on the second day. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And no, it was actually that night when we came when I came back from the hospital and everybody left. And it must have been around 2 a.m. that he said that to me. And I'm like, okay, how am I gonna do that? So yeah, so I never cry in front of him. And I just showed myself strong and I did not wanna give him any stress.

Whatever I was going through paperwork, like I got this. I have a friend that that helped me to get through everything. And because he will ask me, like, are we gonna be okay? Is everything okay? And yes, yes, of course, we're gonna be and we were gonna be okay. But it's give that confidence to him as well. Not not get that not I think it's tough to get that stress for them because they probably feel helpless. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (13:56.686)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (14:06.468)
they can they feel it they feel it immediately. Yeah. They know exactly what's going on.

Laila France (14:12.288)
Yeah. Yeah, but I think what you're saying, like I the aha moment was I'm not gonna be alone. I'm not I'm just gonna get rid of the fear, otherwise it's gonna consume me, 'cause it was already consuming me. And I it just it's a survival instinct, I think, that you have to survive you you are the surviving spouse. Yes. So you're yes. I mean they're gone and you're the one dealing with

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (14:33.623)
Yeah, or exactly. How about that? Yes, yeah, the surviving spouse here.

Laila France (14:40.354)
Everything I mean it's so much. It's like there you go. Like

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (14:43.203)
Yeah. So what was the okay, so you pulled yourself together, you said, obviously I don't have a choice and I'm going to do this n and you committed to to to moving forward. What is it that caused you to start telling your story publicly?

Laila France (15:03.468)
Yes, because I needed so many answers when I started looking and I went online. I went to Facebook, like a like YouTube, and I couldn't get the answers that I wanted. And it was basically when is everything gonna be okay? Like how long does the whole paperwork takes? when am I gonna feel a little bit happy? I mean, am I gonna be sad all the time?

I just wanna feel better and nobody can tell you that. And you know, even the psychiatrist said, it takes a whole year and the anniversary month to start to feel better. and even people will say, Well, about six months sometimes, sometimes I mean no there's no time. But for me it was very important at least to have like a guidance, a map on that, like exactly and what to do.

with the paperwork as well, like what things I had to do first and what can wait, because I had no clue. Like I had never gone through any of this. Even though when my father passed away, my family took care. When James's mom passed away, he took care. and I thought many times like I hope I pass away first because I don't want like to deal with this. I don't even know what to do. And like

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (16:11.438)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (16:19.289)
to deal with this, right? It's it's even with the people I handle it regularly, it's a daunting task. Like the the lawyers and all that business or whether you've done it before, it's n it's an unpleasant and daunting process.

Laila France (16:25.848)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (16:33.654)
Yes. Yeah. And you just try like like like get pieces everywhere. And I really needed something there. Like just tell me I will go to the movement groups and I have no guidance because it's everybody listened to the story and they're all grieving. But for me, there was no structure. And I I needed that. Like, okay, the first two months you are gonna feel super sad. And then the third one you're gonna feel this, and the fourth one, and you know, this is more like me, like steps. I needed steps.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (16:38.595)
Yeah, put a little fires out, right? Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (16:50.863)
Mm.

Laila France (17:03.488)
So I figured out like, okay, I'm gonna put something too together because I thought there must be other women too that, you know, they were dependent first of all their spouses working and they never like me, we never got into the finances or any paperwork. And now you're you're dealing with this and you can

get help or my family is in Mexico. we don't have family close by. I had to deal with everything. And and it's very overwhelming. It's very, very tough. And just to have it there. I mean something that can be helpful immediately that you can search and okay, so this is what I need. And if you can prepare before even better because I did. Mm-hmm. And that's what I wanted like to to talk about it then.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (17:48.183)
May have been better, right. Would you think

Laila France (17:54.166)
I just felt it in my soul, you know.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (17:54.404)
To share with people. Yeah. So let's let's talk in a second about what it is that you're doing aside from having the podcast and sharing this with other people and you're writing a book. but I want to ask you about the groups that you got together with who were all sharing the same grief.

I don't wanna suggest to anybody that's that's not productive that somebody knows how you're feeling so you could could be with them, but it seems like it's sort of a a pool of grief that you put yourself in. Did you find that it was like instead of uplifting it was bringing you down? Yeah. Yeah. I know it's well intentioned, but it was counterproductive. Yeah.

Laila France (18:42.176)
It was Satyr. I came out Sadder. I mean it the first yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because I went in thinking I'm gonna come out with what am I gonna do now and just you know how long this is gonna take. Like I really felt like it was gonna be a full guidance, like a whole like booklet or something. And no, it was people just sharing their stories.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:06.914)
Yeah.

Laila France (19:12.349)
And

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:12.397)
Yeah, because they had to d like your psychiatrist said, or psychologist, whatever it was, said you have to talk about it, right? And so that gave them an opportunity and an audience that yeah.

Laila France (19:20.919)
Okay.

Mm-hmm. And that's okay, yes. To go and talk about it. But then you listen to the other stories and they're still crying and you're trying not to cry. And then it ends and it takes two, three hours. And you're gonna meet again and there's someone new, which it works for some people. You that didn't work for me. So yeah, you're right. It's not, you know, but don't take it personal. Yeah. And and but it was more curious. It was

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:32.505)
Yeah.

Oof.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (19:40.503)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't sound ideal to me.

Laila France (19:52.385)
On this free meeting, we were all widows there and the person who was running it, he had his wife there. And then they're talking Yeah, his wife. I mean they're just me yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:03.511)
His new wife?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:07.546)
wait a minute, I get it. So he was not a widow widower. Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (20:09.834)
No, he was not a widow. Not nor was she. But they're running the group, which it's for everybody who has lost somebody, but it just so happens that the the ones that we were attending, we were all widows. And it's a couple running it. And then they're talking about their anniversary and what they did and what they w and their children. And you're just I'm like a

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:16.046)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:23.459)
Widows, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:29.965)
Yeah, yeah. Stop. Yeah, stop stop talking.

Laila France (20:36.286)
So I'm like, no. I mean, I did try a couple of times and every time I came back home feeling empty and feeling very sad because you do see and hear the pain of others and others that have been there for years and they still cannot get over. And that that's when I said, No, no, I'm not no. I mean, this is what is in store for me.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (20:56.451)
That just sounds like a s a downward spiral to me. Yeah. Good for you. Bounce out of that pretty quick. Yeah.

Laila France (21:00.268)
Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. yeah, yeah, yeah. And I found the same with the Facebook group. So maybe I didn't know how to search, but that's the first thing you do. Widows, widowers and and it's all this stuff. So I'm like, no, I no, I'm not gonna let myself like that because I do love life and I know Jen's had a great life and you know, and I do wanna find my my joy and my happiness again and I don't want that silence to continue bothering me.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (21:13.113)
Totally makes sense, yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (21:30.358)
And I needed to do that quick because for me it's also like I I don't have time for like a whole year to grip that deeply. Like in three months I was drowning. So I'm not like I had to change and talk about it and maybe help other like I said, other women too, other people that I mean if if you want to, it's up to you to do it and and change your mentality. That's one of the main things you have to do, is just, you know, like that. Just I'm not gonna go back to those groups and I'm gonna put everything positive and

Put yourself first as well.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:02.191)
So there's a somebody you know, Sean of the Real. Did you ever meet him? Anyway, he has a group where he suffered a pretty significant mental health breakdown, and he came out of it and he started an organization called The Real. He's he's in the community. You're gonna run into him at some point. But I interviewed him a few months ago, and I've known him for a long time before he had his breakdown, and he said something.

Laila France (22:20.546)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:31.267)
Really interesting. He said when you're in that situation where you're grieving and you're lonely and you feel the pressure like you did, your mind is not your friend.

Laila France (22:43.937)
No mm mm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (22:45.887)
And so that resonated with me 'cause you I could see you're so you know, you could just spin out pretty easily, right?

Laila France (22:51.842)
Yes. Yeah. And you and you won the exit. And I kept thinking, is this gonna happen again tomorrow? Because it's I I can't take it. It's such a like a massive weight on you. And I I needed to put out crying, but Kyle was here and I'm like, I need to go out and just walk and and that's when you start thinking, I need help. Like I really need to like I need to do something. yes, and I think that's what happens to a lot of people is that trigger that

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:00.409)
Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (23:19.958)
You don't you don't want this feeling anymore. But it's until you're in it or you're experiencing that. Yeah. It's deadly depression. I mean, now you have an idea. It's not just like you're just crying, it's a lot of it. Like you know what I learned? That the body also grips physically. Like you feel that I felt this burn on my stomach for done more than a month.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:22.137)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:27.361)
Yeah, so r so rough.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:44.675)
Oof.

Laila France (23:45.703)
And even a pain on the heart and I remember very well. It was at the bottom right on the back. It's so like very precisely what I felt. Very specific the pain. And I wonder if it was related maybe to James. I I don't know about it's so weird. Like since the night that he passed I felt it and it was about the same time with the stomach. And then later on I read about

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (23:54.221)
Very specific, right? Wow.

Laila France (24:11.002)
the body griefs and it also goes through that. And you're such a high alert as well. So the anxiety, the waking up at three AM and I didn't want to listen to the birds because James loved birds. And it's, you know, the palpitations, it's a lot. I I mean I did have to put on medication for a lot of like the anxiety 'cause I had severe anxiety. No, the whole your whole world changes mentally, physically. And that's when you you really need to act on it. Like you said

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (24:39.683)
So

Laila France (24:40.375)
You don't have choice.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (24:42.52)
No, go ahead.

Laila France (24:43.63)
no, that's a

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (24:45.709)
So I read a book a long time ago by a very famous author called Alice Miller. And she wrote a book, said the a bunch of books, but one was The Body Doesn't Lie and it was precisely what you're saying is that the body is gonna tell you exactly what's going on. It's not just your mind, right? 'Cause it affects your cell structure, everything. Yeah. It's fascinating.

Laila France (24:58.05)
But

Laila France (25:10.924)
Yes. And those are one of the things that I also I never read or learned about it until you're experiencing and it's things that I you know, I wanna talk about it.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (25:23.215)
So aside from the podcast and and the book that you have coming out, have you produced a compendium of how to guide, what to do before, what to do after? Have you have you created something like that?

Laila France (25:25.954)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (25:36.063)
Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, yes. You can go to my website, which is lilafrance.com, and I have two resources. And those were the first thing that that we created. and it was with Elizabeth DeMoray's, a lady from the Creative Women platform that we met in well, we already knew each other, but we're in Malta this June, and that's how we created the show using those resources. And it's

Is the audit, which is the before your spouse passes away, and for you to prepare. So basically it's a prepare women aud. And you just go, it's already there. What you need to do, like if you have beneficiaries on you know, all your bank accounts have joint accounts. I always tell the story that when I went to the bank to notify and the manager

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (26:14.755)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (26:32.662)
he looked at it and and he took like a big relief and said, Well thank goodness you guys are joined because normally people are not and we have to there's nothing we can do, we have to freeze everything, you need to go to probe it and it's a whole mess. So and James, so I remember every time his he's a finance guy, he always put me on beneficiary on everything, and that was a big relief for me when we had to I had to move out all all the finances.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (26:48.138)
thank you.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (26:59.246)
Yeah.

Laila France (27:02.828)
So you go through everything, what to do like with your children, guardianship, have a trust or a will. We have a will and wasn't valid. I I because I did it out of like the internet a long time ago, and I didn't know that in the state of New York you need two witnesses. And I didn't have two witnesses, we just have another rights. You don't need to have an authorized. Sorry if I it was all backwards. And so no, it wasn't it wasn't valid.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:21.645)
Laila France (27:32.118)
And what else? Yeah, there's so many things in there that you can check, your healthcare, your proxy. If yes, if you ended up incapacitated as well. Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:39.339)
Healthcare proxy, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (27:44.451)
Yeah, even if it's for a short period of time, like you have to have somebody take care of stuff 'cause if you don't die and you come back, right? You just

Laila France (27:52.279)
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And passwords. You need to share your passwords. This is always something that Jens we always did and we have a book and we always update it. And thank goodness because I still had to go to his computer. I had his phone and a lot of it were to set verification. So I had got to the phone and had face ID which I had to like remove, but don't do face ID.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:14.951)
right, and it sent

Right. So that's how I Lila Layla, that's how I found out is a friend of a common friend of ours saw my name on one of James's lists. I never knew. I mean I didn't know, but he found my name and he said, I don't know if you've heard, but James passed. That's how I found out. And I don't know whether it was you

Laila France (28:29.729)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (28:45.486)
Wow.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:48.683)
Or him it doesn't matter, I don't need to know. Like

Laila France (28:51.926)
Yeah, no, it wasn't me because I know you contacted me and I didn't know who you were. Yes. yeah, it's also that if you have what to what you want for your funeral, who to contact. 'Cause I always kept asking James, if something happens to you, I mean I don't know who I'm gonna call. Like he has a whole world of friends and connections and I I don't even know how how yeah, how to start. And well I started with his

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (28:55.149)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right.

Laila France (29:21.358)
employer and you know one of his coworkers and I said, could you please notify everybody? And that's another thing that's on that list. You know, everything you you can go. It's like three pages, it's free. And you have to do it. And I always said, right now that you are alive, that you have them alive, just go through that. It's gonna be peace of mind because then it it's another deal or another nightmare.

And the other one is a survival spouse target, which is when you're already on the road, your spouse already passed away, and it's the roadmap. Like what to do now. what are the first things that you need to set notify or call, what can wait, you know, the first days and weeks and months, and it just helps you so you're not so overwhelmed with because I I was when they told me James's human resources, they they set up a whole package.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (29:58.2)
Right.

Laila France (30:17.206)
And they sent them to me and I just kept going on and I'm like, this is a huge mountain. I just how am I gonna get through this? And it's just like that. You have to do all of this. There's no timeline or anything. And I wanted to do that. Like what's more important? Call Social Security right now because you're gonna go through interviews if you have a child, there are benefits for them. And it takes about two months to get the interview and get that set up. But you need to come right away. No, I know.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (30:24.461)
Yeah. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (30:44.023)
Have no idea. Have no idea. Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (30:47.328)
so much. So I put it all together and those are our free resources that are there on my website. So yeah, that's my given back.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (30:55.939)
Have you yeah, yeah. Have you found people taking you up on that offer?

Laila France (31:02.154)
Yes, yeah. Yeah, and especially their spouses that have just passed away, like within this year.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:11.061)
Rough. Yeah.

Laila France (31:12.63)
Which is it's sad to know. Like you know, like I had to go and and get that. Or I I told my friend that her s her husband passed away and I told her about your website and but this is why I try like my gosh, like if you have them right now alive, just prepare yourself. I mean, nothing's gonna prepare you for how you're gonna feel with grief, but seriously it just I can't emphasize it enough enough with all the paperwork is is a big thing. So

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (31:41.645)
Yeah, it's enough that you're suffering emotionally. You don't need an additional friction to that could have been easily averted, right?

Laila France (31:44.781)
Yeah.

Laila France (31:50.637)
Yes. And it's just endless phone calls because for me I like I barely was doing any phone calls. It was James who will contact whatever something breaks, you know. And it was hard for me to like, okay, now I have to make a phone call. And it's about James and it's kinda like removing him from everything. Not just notifying like the life insurance, but for like utility bills.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:12.215)
Right.

Laila France (32:18.666)
it you really have you have to remove his name and it's it's tough like seeing you know that life that he was a person alive, like he had a a footprint in this war and now you need to erase him and now it needs to be me and you need to explain what happened and they always ask you what was the date that he passed away so it's over and over. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:31.235)
Yeah. That's rough.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (32:37.891)
Right. Ooh. Well you have to relive it for every utility. That's that's that's not very comforting, is it? Of course, yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (32:41.42)
You had to relieve it, yes.

And they're kind, I mean they're like, Well, we're sorry for your loss and you know, but then then later on you're a little bit more used to of just, you know, telling it. But the first times it's just I I didn't even know. When I called the life insurance and I said to the guy, I mean, I don't know like if I should have done it online or call you. I mean, I just decided to call you and I don't know what to do.

from here and he's like, Don't worry, I mean you did the right thing on calling me and we're gonna take over this and he was so nice and warm and I just felt more relaxed because I didn't even know what to ask or, you know, I just have to call his number and then then what?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:20.676)
Yeah.

Yeah. Wild. Yeah, it's kind of an endless number of things that have to dip taken care of in life, right? And the password thing's a big deal.

Laila France (33:31.362)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (33:34.765)
Yes, because not a lot of couples will share their passwords and they're fun. And I have a person that I know this year she told me that one of her friends, her husband passed away and it was a big deal to get the passwords. And the reason why was once she got a hold of it, he was cheating on her when she got into the bank accounts. And I mean, I know, that's but

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:38.169)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (33:59.61)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:04.621)
Yeah, on top of everything else. Yeah totally. Yeah, on top of everything el Yeah.

Laila France (34:05.058)
At the end, you're gonna figure that out. So you're gonna they're gonna find out. But yeah, I mean it it's if James wouldn't have given me the passwords, my gosh, I don't know. Because there's so many accounts and also apps that I had to remove that you know is on his phone that you don't need to continue paying on that. And you yeah, you need to figure that out. And I will check also on the statements, back statements.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:29.238)
All right. Yeah.

Laila France (34:34.606)
what what's another application that he has or a website that yes, that it wouldn't be every month, it will be like every six months. So we'll have to continually check in and checking his emails as well and trying to find other investments that were that were not on the place that he said were gonna be. And yes, taxes, like how he did them, who he contacted. my gosh, yeah, it's a lot.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:38.477)
Recurring recurring fees for stuff, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (34:44.665)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:01.775)
It's a lot. It's a lot.

Laila France (35:04.334)
So as much as you can have and just those little details, give me the password of your computer. And I didn't have that until like a few days before James went to India. And he looked at me and very serious and he said, I have to give you the password of my computer, just like that. And I said, Okay. And then he gave it to me and he said, Kai also knows it because he has me on my computer and has played.

Then I asked Kyle, like, do you know the password? And he said no, so he didn't remember. And I'm like, Thank goodness he gave me that. Because that

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:39.565)
Yeah. The universe the universe was doing him a favor.

Laila France (35:43.49)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (35:45.562)
Yeah, like what that's super interesting, right? What caused him all right, so on some level makes sense he's traveling halfway around the world. India's not exactly the safest place in the world. You never know what's gonna happen. But he went to Abajazan or something like that last year, right? Yeah. Like crazy places.

Laila France (35:51.49)
Yeah.

Laila France (35:58.702)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (36:05.362)
yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah. he ke yeah, he kept traveling. And I think that also caused I don't know, like more deterioration, I can pronounce it well on his heart. Because I could see him very, very tired. But you know one thing that I am so grateful and blessed even through the tragedy is that thank goodness he passed away at home and it didn't happen in India.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (36:16.015)
Stress, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (36:33.578)
Because some of them stayed behind. They were gonna come back with him and and they didn't and they stayed for a couple of days and they asked him if he could stay and he said no I wanna go back home. Can you imagine something what you do with somebody that's in another country? I don't even know how how you manage that. Yes, no, no, no. Or he could have been in the city because he will go on Mondays.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (36:33.591)
Right.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (36:50.881)
Yeah. It's a whole other set of complications. Yeah.

Laila France (37:00.352)
And good thing he didn't feel well as well. He he always will be meeting people and you know that. so he was at home and everything was there with him. So that's another okay. Relief. It could have been way worse, yes, of what it was. So it happened at home and well, thank God. I mean, yes.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (37:13.827)
Yeah. Yeah. It could've it could have been worse, yeah. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (37:24.323)
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the book coming out. Tell us about that.

Laila France (37:28.747)
Mm-hmm.

Yes, so I just wanted to tell more the whole background and also because we have such a beautiful marriage, James and I, and you know, it was really it was so much love and we trust each other and how like we were so young and shy and James was very shy. He wasn't the James that you knew him.

That he would just walk in a room and talk to everybody and had all this knowledge and wisdom and connecting. He will not talk. So I was the one more like getting him out and let's go party and you know, and like introducing to friends. And he was always very quiet, not saying much. and it took him years to, I guess, mature. Yeah. So and I always, you know, I thought that was very important for people to know like who was James? It's not just like,

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (38:16.961)
Open up and mature.

Laila France (38:26.016)
It's my husband passed away and this is what I learned from it. Not for them to know that the entire story, that's a really like a love story. And you know, it just tragically it ended like this. But life doesn't have to end just when James ended. Yes, our family kind of ended that way at that moment. But you can still find happiness. And that's what I wanna share, like the hope and reinvent yourself and really put yourself first. And you know.

we only have this life, so just try to leave it and I know we're the survivors, but it's a new chapter that you can rebuild again and and get new memories and I really wanna give hope because that's what I wanted to find and the answers that I wanted to get that I never got and I just didn't want to hear like you're gonna continue. Sad it No, like you know, it's it's gonna be even better. So to look at it that way. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (39:17.741)
Yeah. It's really inspiring. You know, you also have all those great memories, right? You just said it you just said it out loud, you had a great marriage. Like that's something to be really grateful for, right? Yeah.

Laila France (39:25.899)
yes, yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Laila France (39:33.355)
Mm-hmm. And yeah, and then you think, why does it happen to me? I mean, but you know, there's I don't know, things probably happen for for a reason. And yeah, I just thought that I just really wanna share it and not just tell you about what you have to do during the first months, like that as well. But you know, just yeah, just find find happiness and

Many times on that group shop that we are there together, was given a lot of suggestions for books that, you know, spouses that pass away that people have brought, and I bought a couple of them and it was the same thing, the same topic. Super sad. I call them past from the first two chapters, and I didn't want that to be like this. It's so like, it just doesn't change, you know, like

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:25.092)
Yeah.

Laila France (40:29.578)
Yeah. So I'm like this has to I need to do something about it that, you know, brings some happiness and and positiveness to people when this happens to you that you can get out there. Like don't don't don't get in don't feel that depressed because it it's awful. And the loneliness is it yeah. I mean even if you have family and friends, they move on. So they continue with their own lives and

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:45.39)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (40:54.307)
Yeah, they have their own lives. Yeah.

Laila France (40:56.844)
You know, of course you're you're there and you and I remember you were the one who said like we don't know if we can say how are you because remember you said that? Because we know how are you. But for me it was fine. But I know some people don't like that. And it's true, they don't like that when they say how are you? I was a person told me that. So I'm like, Okay, well that it doesn't bother me, but you don't I mean they don't know what to say because

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:05.645)
We Yeah, I did say that. Yeah. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:21.327)
Yeah.

Laila France (41:24.898)
I mean it's not their fault, you know. So it's it's a lot so people will not come back to you 'cause I think there's like like a yes, yeah. There's something that we need to that gap or that space that we need to fill it in that doesn't need to be like that. And I also noticed too that friends they when they saw how was healing and how fast it was happening, 'cause I was putting it on my Instagram.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:26.754)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:31.917)
They make makes them uncomfortable, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (41:39.79)
Yeah.

Laila France (41:54.507)
And I was just putting the pictures with my friends when I went to Mexico and we'll go out for dinner. And we all went and you know, we went to another place and when we spent the night in a hotel and we just they're all very supportive of me. And that helped me. So I put all of that and we're having drinks, and I started people unfollowed me. And this is six months after, and I noticed how it's

You know, I change because my situation changed and they don't s they don't recognize you.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:25.391)
Yeah, you don't need you don't need you don't need the Yeah, but you don't need those people.

Laila France (42:30.324)
Mm-hmm. And that's another part that comes with it when you grieve and people that they don't know how to approach you and or like you know like we're gonna have like a dinner with two couples and they don't want to invite you because you don't have a person to so it's a lot of that as well. It's a lot of that dynamic. And no, it doesn't have to be like that. I then I started to get a lot of friends too and all of this women that they were very supportive with me and with the story and it just

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:34.499)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (42:49.337)
Yeah.

Laila France (42:59.244)
Like destined. Some left and s other ones that came in. Yes.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:03.991)
Yeah. Usually when people behave in that way it's some problem they have. It isn't your problem, right? Right there. Yeah. Yeah. What do you need what do you need that friction for, right? Yeah.

Laila France (43:10.242)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (43:13.856)
Yes, and you won't have time for that. Like I was like, no, I'm already have to deal with enough and I'm feeling well. Yes, exactly, yes.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:27.169)
If people will criticize you because you pulled your s got your shit together in short order, like who needs them, right?

Laila France (43:36.267)
Yeah. No, yes. I I'm like, first of all, my perspective of life changed and I thought I'm not gonna be judging anymore. Because now I notice how quickly I mean, you can pass away, like you know, like James, like all of the sun was like that. So I really need to enjoy life and stop judging, like that's it. It it's draining.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:45.708)
No.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (43:58.736)
It's a waste of energy.

Laila France (43:59.969)
It's a waste of energy and then you just attract even more and that's what I did, remove all the negativity. So and unfortunately, yes, you do get judged and I lost weight and when I came back from Mexico and the people like at church were like, you you look sick. I mean many times they were asking me, You look are you okay? You feeling okay, you look sick and and it it bothered me. So I stopped talking. I mean Yeah, no, so no.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:17.144)
Hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:23.745)
Yeah. Yeah. Who needs that? Yeah, it's it.

Laila France (44:29.4)
I'm like, finally I lost weight.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (44:35.149)
Yeah, who needs people that when you think about it, when you criticize somebody, what are they gonna do with that? Right? There's there's nothing they can do with that. And it does and it actually expends energy that if you're the one criticizing, that's useless. Like what does that somehow satiate some problem? It's like a mirror, like they're projecting, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (44:43.147)
Mm.

Laila France (44:49.088)
Yes.

Laila France (44:56.832)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (45:01.132)
Yes. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:05.282)
I don't talk.

Laila France (45:05.87)
And what I wanted to do on my Instagram before I started to go public with it, it was just I wanted to put all these memories to be happy. So I never put anything like like a picture I never put pictures of James saying like I miss you. No, I wanted to be about me and Kyle and our new trips and the new memories. And I think that's another thing that was kind of shocking.

Because I'm cheering with my friends and we have a glass of wine and you know, I'm at the beach on a boat in Miami or things like that. And you know, they're like, What's what's going on? But I mean, no, I'm not I'm not I I wanted to change everything and and I meant everything, so

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:38.948)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:50.169)
Who needs it?

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (45:55.888)
Well, you just demonstrated the path aside from all the stuff that we just talked about, that there's hope. Like you don't have to go into deep depression and spiral out, right?

Laila France (46:08.566)
Yes. Yes. And I think it's important because Kyle and I were able to talk about James all the time. And at the beginning when this happened, I didn't know how we were gonna touch the topic of James later on, in later years or memories of him. Like at first I couldn't see pictures when everybody was sharing the pictures of James in the group and that that was really tough for me.

And but with all of this when I changed everything, my mentality and looking for myself and seeing Kyle that he was doing better, then we just started talking and Kyle I will hear him talking to his friends about James like like a normal kid and like a proud kid.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (46:45.741)
Yeah, totally cool. That's your that's your fault. He's okay with it because of you, w because of your attitude. It's a good thing. You know, I I admit I s had a picture come up in my feed recently, within the time that we chatted to do this, and I thought twice about sending it to you.

Laila France (46:59.554)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (47:05.763)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (47:09.753)
okay. Yeah, sure.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:11.587)
Yeah, because it was James and I having a drink or something. He always he he used to make fun of me because the first time we met w was at some reception and I was holding a glass of wine by the base. Like I was just standing there talking and some key somebody came over and introduced me to him. And he's always made fun of me. Like I was not doing it intentionally. I just didn't want to get my fingerprints all over the the globe.

Laila France (47:14.711)
Yes.

Laila France (47:31.352)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (47:39.587)
Right. So I was just holding it by the base. And and he was always always made fun of me that we first time he made that we met, that I was holding the glass in an awkward way. Right.

Laila France (47:39.598)
Yes, yeah.

Laila France (47:49.474)
Like that.

Yeah. that gents. Yes, of course. You can send it. Like I got so many and I think I'm gonna put some on the book. And yes. And I I wanted yeah, I need to ask like if I can have permission of like whoever if there's a picture that's somebody there, that it's not just me and Kyle, you know, to put it on the book. yes, no, no, no. No, for me it was basically like the first month that it was hard to see.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:01.38)
That's a good idea. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:19.417)
Yeah. Totally understandable. Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (48:19.596)
pictures because it was just so fresh. But after that, no, I all the time I had to go back and even Kyle, he goes back and looks at videos and when he was little, we have a big file of that. So that's always gonna be present. and that's another thing that you need to learn to move on with with that memory with you. And being able to move on healthy, right? Not just that once you look at it is it's sort of present. Because everything here at home, like it's James. Like he got

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:33.987)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (48:48.023)
It's James. Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (48:48.766)
One and like placid. Like that's a lot of stuff that I see around and it's James, James, James. And you know, you have to learn we live with it, and not that I'm gonna change the whole house. And because Kyle is part of Kyle, his essence as well. So I'm like, I can't remove James from here, you know. So and and then you learn to live with that and you're able to move on happily and yes. So

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:14.103)
It actually th it's I think it's good practice to manage to not being triggered. Like it it's it's fashionable to say, that triggers me, which is all nonsense, right? I mean I understand that it could trigger some thought and cause some series of things in your brain, but it's not an excuse to to

Laila France (49:23.414)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (49:28.664)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:41.507)
Like it's up to you how to handle that, right? What is the old saying? It's not what happens to you, it's how what you do with what happens with you, right?

Laila France (49:43.778)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, and that that happened to me with his clothes. I didn't get to those until eight months later. And curious enough, the day that he passed away, I have just finished a whole wash. So all of his clothes were in his drawer.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (49:50.927)
Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:08.975)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (50:09.132)
There was nothing hanging around and the clothes that he was wearing, he went in with the with those to the hospital and they never gave me those back. And I think they did cut them off or something. So I never got those. So I never had to look at anything just for the funeral where I had to bring things like his suit and I brought a brand new shirt that he had bought that he never wore and stuff. But it took me eight months until I was able to open the drawers and I was so healed by then.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:18.743)
Right, of course, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:26.882)
Suit, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:38.903)
Mm.

Laila France (50:39.736)
that like you said didn't trigger me nothing. I was able to start okay, like which ones they're really, you know, old that which ones I can keep for Kyle, which ones are gonna be donated, and it was such an easy process. but yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (50:52.495)
Yeah.

Good for you. Good for you that you recognized that the healing is real, can ha it can happen, right?

Laila France (51:02.67)
Mm-hmm. Yes. And then I got space for me. Yeah. Now I'm not now I'm gonna have to put it this and yeah, I mean you had to look at it this way.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:06.391)
Right. Exactly, yeah. Go shopping. Retail therapy, right?

Yeah. Well, I think I'll say this while we're still recording, but if there's anything Mary and I can do for you, you know, and I'm sure there's lots of people offering you help, but if for whatever reason you need whatever, it's we're we're always there. Yeah. Yeah.

Laila France (51:23.245)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (51:36.008)
Thank you. That's so kind of you. Yeah, say hi to your wife. She's s so lovely.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (51:44.215)
Yeah, Mary's awesome. all right, so we're gonna wrap it up, but I really appreciate you doing this and we'll make sure everybody gets access to the website and we'll send this link to you and everything and I

Laila France (51:45.676)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (51:57.198)
yes, yes. Yeah, I can send you the link as well. But no, thank you for having me. That was great that that you offer it. And so good to see you and talk about James. This this is great. Remembering, see all this stuff about him. And I love the stories of him, like him introducing people because they're always so funny. Even when he will come to me and tell me stories that he met somebody, it was the same thing, so

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:03.203)
Yeah. And could could it

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:21.017)
We used to hang out at the Baccarat Hotel and it was never with any in intentional invites. We would just you know randomly say, Let's go over to the Baccarat. He would invite F Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laila France (52:34.902)
Is that the one that sold the glass? he took me there one time like that. We were walking with Kaya and he said, Come here. We are dressing like tourists. We go in and he make me walk inside the restaurant which everybody's dressing so fancy. They're all looking at us. The whole thing I had to follow him. I was so embarrassed. Cause he wanted me to look at the butt yeah, sorry to interrupt. It was just

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:40.087)
It's nice. Yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:46.093)
Yeah, yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (52:59.032)
Mm-hmm.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (53:02.925)
It was it was it was kind of our midtown hangout. And what we would do is just decide to go and then randomly invite three people and then he'd randomly invite three people. We would just have this wonderful casual, no agenda, you know, get to know each other's friends. It was so nice. We'd do it all the time.

Laila France (53:06.253)
Mm-hmm.

Laila France (53:22.848)
Yes. No, he always said that he will always tell me I'm gonna go to the city, to this place, I'm gonna meet such and such. And I'm like I already lost track of how people like the names. I just don't even know. Like yeah.

Arthur Andrew Bavelas (53:34.603)
Of course. Yeah. Of course.

All right. Well thanks. Thanks for doing this. Thanks everybody for being here. Till next time.

Laila France (53:39.298)
Your author thoughts.

Laila France (53:43.597)
Yes, thank you.