Mark Spicer. Understanding PTSD: An Injury, Not a Disorder.

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Hello everyone.
Thanks for joining us for

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another episode of Arthur's
Round Table.

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We've had a flurry of really
interesting interviews, which

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I'm grateful for.
And I'm also grateful for the

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attention that the Family Office
insights community is paid to

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this podcast and also grateful
for you sharing it with others.

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And so thank you for that.
And we have another very

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interesting beginner is a prior
guest who some of you may have

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seen and we've recently become
acquainted and friendly and she

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excitedly and without any
reluctance suggested that we

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speak to Mark and Mark kindly
agreed.

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And so we're super excited to
have this conversation today.

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You're going to find out in a
minute what it's all about.

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South Mark, welcome.
Thank you for doing this.

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Really appreciate it.
So thank you very much for

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inviting me.
I'm very honored to be here.

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It's my honor.
Let's start with the beginning

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of your journey here, where
things all began.

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In fact, your origin story would
be great.

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Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I'm
English, born of bread.

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I'm an American citizen now, you
know, I've been here for 20

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years now, but my hometown is is
Portsmouth on the South Coast of

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England.
I just another sort of poor lad

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in in a naval town that sort of
grew up, followed my father into

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the Army.
I then spent 25 years certainly

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with the British Army and
various NATO allies.

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And the one thing I always, I
always convinced myself of was

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that it doesn't matter where you
start in life because you have

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no control over that.
And but the way you end is

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entirely up to you.
And so I guess some would say I

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aimed my my sights way too high,
but I didn't agree and I decided

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to push them through with that.
My military career was split

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with the special operations and
predominantly infantry.

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My mate, something of a name of
myself within the sphere of

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sniping and a counterterrorism,
which saw me then selected by

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the US government as the expert
witness and on the Washington DC

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sniper trial.
So I got flown across from the

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UK, attached to the FBI task
force, and then I helped them

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work through the process of
understanding exactly how a

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sniper would operate.
Why the person who doesn't pull

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the trigger is just as important
as the person who does.

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So therefore both men were as
guilty as each other and

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obviously with a very successful
outcome on that.

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When I left the army, I don't
think there was any real well, I

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didn't have any other skills to,
to be quite honest.

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You know, the army taken up the
majority of my life at that

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stage.
So I didn't see any reason why I

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should sort of give that up and
drive a bus.

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So I then did what most soldiers
did at that period and I sort of

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moved into the private security
world.

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And it's a, it's a very small
world where it's who you know

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rather than what you know,
because the, what you know comes

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with the justification from who
you know.

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So I ended up working for what
was they described as the

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boutique of security, a small
company called Chanusianada,

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Central London, where we looked
after, you know, corporate

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entities going into Iraq,
etcetera.

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And also I I looked after the
main insurance company in the UK

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called Hiscox, now Hiscock, to
ensure the richest 500 people in

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the UK.
So my job for them was when

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their insurance came up for
renewal, they had to have a

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survey done by me on their
place.

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A risk risk assessment.
Absolutely, yes.

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So they would, they would have
to have a risk assessment on

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their that sort of permanent
residence and also their

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business as such, if the
business was insured as well.

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So I use then my sort of kind of
terrorist skills to work out

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where I could get past whatever
security they currently had.

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Then did a security survey and a
detailed report of what they

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required on the back of that.
Hiscox would then reinsure or

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not reinsure, they're depending
on whether they took the advice.

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Great experience.
You know, I've got to to meet

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some very famous people and, you
know, explain to them.

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And the thing I guess that
shocked me most was as an

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example, in one room there could
be two or three paintings worth

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over $1,000,000.
And my recommendation said that

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they needed maybe $9000 worth of
security upgrade.

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And they argued.
So you're like, OK, that's

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probably why you're rich.
After that told me I'd moved to

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the US and I I then started
working in the defence industry

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over here.
I work for, for various defence

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companies as well as starting my
own company Offspring.

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So over the next sort of period
of or the next decade, I helped

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establish various companies,
training footprints about their

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training, et cetera, located
their their ideal place for them

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to run the training and then
offered their their training,

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their training curriculums for
all their different classes that

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they wanted to teach.
Based on obviously my

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experiences.
I also became the lead

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instructor for all of them.
It was interesting you say

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whilst I wasn't working for
somebody else and working for

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myself, I got to travel the
world.

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I'd certainly worked in places
like as far as Drifters as

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Jordan twice Sweden.
I lived in India for a year

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while I was working with the,
the Punjab Home Guard.

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And so we were up on the Chinese
Pakistan border.

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Very interesting place.
There's a lot of things are

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going up there and they don't
necessarily hit the news, but I,

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I, I just found the Indian
people in general to be

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extremely hospitable people.
We, we never had a single

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problem in India.
The food takes some getting used

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to.
There's no doubt about that.

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But I guess once you're used to
Indian food, just anything after

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that is, is kind of not very
hot.

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So, so that was a good bonus.
And it was a fantastic

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experience as well to, to live
in that country for that long,

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to get to know the people to
travel around the country was

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interested.
And as I say, that was that was

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very much the same process that
was establishing a, a new skill

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set that the Indian Punjab
regiment didn't have.

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And then again, author and all
of their, their training doctor

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teaching their instructors.
So the whole train, the training

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thing comes in again.
And one of the things that I've

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found as I progressed from my
time in the army was that the

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skills that the Army or the
military in general give you

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actually transfer very well into
the corporate world.

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That totally makes sense to me,
right?

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Discipline, making sure things
don't fall through the cracks,

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measuring out misery outcomes,
right?

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Yeah.
I mean, one of the things we're

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we're very good at, Arthur, is
we're we're problem solvers.

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So when something goes wrong, we
think on our feet, we find a way

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to achieve the mission, whatever
it is.

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Now the one thing that I did
find difficult when I know

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speaking to others, former
military guys as well and

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veterans, is our sense of humour
tends not to fit in fairly well

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with the civilian world.
But we've I've heard it called

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sort of dark humour and various
other things and it really is a

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case of finding something to
dull the senses to some of the

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horrific things you see.
Yeah.

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And to be able to laugh actually
keeps you going.

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But at the same time, when you
transfer to the civilian world

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and you you discover such things
as HR there, there can be some

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issues.
Because what we consider funny

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something we do not, you know,
though, in the 25 years that I

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was in the Army, the world
changed a lot.

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And it's, it's difficult because
it's a, it's a culture shock

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when you leave because I retired
as a assault major in the

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British Army.
So I was a fairly powerful man

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that was gone overnight.
You know, overnight I lost most

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of my friends.
I lost my power.

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I lost my position, my
integrity.

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Chain of command doesn't really
exist, right?

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No, Gone.
And then all of a sudden, I'm at

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the back of call of somebody
half my age who's telling me why

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job can't be done, and I'm
trying to tell him it can be

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done.
So, yeah, there, I could kind of

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understand some of the issues
that that soldiers have when

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they come out.
And that really led to a book I

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wrote, you know, I'll talk about
later on, if you don't mind,

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because it became obvious to me
that that was a major problem

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for veterans coming out of the
military.

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Who's trying to fit back in now?
The military spend up to nine

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months changing you from a
civilian into a soldier where

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they will literally mentally
strip you down and rebuild you

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into what they need.
And it's a requirement that you

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know, it's not.
I've heard people say about, oh,

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they shout too much.
And you can't scream and shout

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at these people.
You've got to be nicer to them.

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No, you don't, because from day
one, soldiers are being

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conditioned for what we call
conduct after capture.

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Your enemy is not going to
tickle you and make you a cup of

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tea, right?
They're going to or.

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Worry about whether they trigger
you or not.

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Yep.
And if you don't mind me saying,

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at least in this country, the
world has become ultra sensitive

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to everything and so you can't
even be funny anymore without

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offending somebody.
Absolutely.

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And it's, it's sad because you
have to be in some people are in

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a position where they have to be
mindful of that, especially in

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the corporate environment.
And I'm only stopping you

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because, you know, the pendulum
has swung so far in this

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country.
And I love this country.

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I'm not disparaging it at all.
I think it's fantastic to be

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here in so many ways.
And I prospered as a result and

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so have my as my family.
But and enjoy the freedom that

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we have here.
But you know, we have to worry

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about cracking a joke and then
someone's going to call HR and

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then you're going to get called
to the mat by somebody half your

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age to tell you that that wasn't
right.

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It's sort of like, lighten up,
take a joke, it's funny, move

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on, right?
Well, that was the one of the

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main things that I realized.
It changed, you know, when I

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went into the Army, if somebody
said they were offended, you

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apologized.
You know, they actually said it

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to your face and they gave you a
chance to apologise.

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Because most of the time nobody
means to upset anybody.

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No, nobody means to offend
anybody.

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It's just we all have different
senses of humour on different

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levels sometimes.
But when I came out, it was a

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case of they didn't tell me I'd
offended them, they would tell

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you.
Right.

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And, you know, as a soldier,
that was very hard to get used

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to because you're like, you
know, just come, can you tell

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me, you know, if I offended you
and I didn't mean to, I would

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apologise.
So that so that was very that

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was very difficult.
And I think working within the

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defence industry was, was almost
like a safety net, working with

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exactly the same people that
you'd been in the military with,

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got same sense of humour,
weren't easily upset, but you

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knew you could rely on them.
You knew when things went wrong,

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they weren't in Iran.
So yeah, that was, that was

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actually very, very good and I
enjoyed it.

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Now, obviously within the space
of the defense entry, a lot of

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people in the defense industry
are not veterans, they're

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civilians or engineers or, you
know, that people have got a

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different skill set than me.
And I'm, I value that because

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one of the things the military
teaches you is how to make a

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team.
And the whole purpose of a team

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is you, you pull people around
you that they can do something

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better than you can.
You may have an understanding in

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that that topic, but you told
somebody in who was a subject

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matter expert, and then that's
the person you lean on for that

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topic.
Now, the other thing that the

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the special operations side of
life teaches is everybody gets

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an opinion.
So the, the problem is put out

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there, everybody gives an
opinion on how best to solve it.

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But the, the boss, the commander
is the man who makes the final

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decision and then everybody just
falls into line behind that

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decision, whether it was their
idea or not.

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And it works.
So I value the skill sets that

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the civilians around me brought
to the table that I most

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certainly didn't have.
And I, I had no qualms at all

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about leaning on those people or
going to those people for advice

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because I didn't know.
And I think one of the hardest

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00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,200
things for most people to do,
male or female in any, in any

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00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,000
position is, is sometimes,
except somebody could do it

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00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,280
better than you.
And that's what a team is.

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00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,200
I established A reputation for
building teams and I ended up

230
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,160
between different companies to
solve problems.

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00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,640
In some cases, I solved the
problem and then looked for a

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00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,000
new challenge.
In some cases, the people that

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00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,360
brought me in to solve the
problem didn't didn't listen.

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00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,560
So it was absolutely pointless
me staying there.

235
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,120
So I moved to a different
challenge.

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00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:59,960
I guess really one of my, one of
my biggest claims of fame was I

237
00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:05,400
just finished actually working
in India and I got a phone call

238
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:11,080
saying that a member of the
Jordanian royal family was, was

239
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:17,280
trying to reach me, which I just
brushed off as as a joke until I

240
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,160
got a phone call.
His Rohan's Prince Stello called

241
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:25,240
me and they then pointed out
that they wanted to talk to me

242
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,960
about a project they had coming
up.

243
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,840
And Prince Stello flew to
Phoenix, just where I live now.

244
00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:34,880
Three days later, he flew to
Phoenix.

245
00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,040
We sat down over a three or four
day period.

246
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,000
We looked at the problem, I gave
him my thoughts on the problem.

247
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,560
And then they offered me a
contract to to go to Jordan and

248
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,120
change it.
And what it was was they wanted

249
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:54,000
to bring their sniping skills,
equipment and training

250
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,760
curriculum up to a standard that
would be closer to the US and

251
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,880
the UK standards.
So I put together a team people

252
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,120
had either trained personally or
I knew personally and they, they

253
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,920
crossed the whole spectrum of
British special forces through

254
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,200
to American Special forces,
Marines and Army.

255
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,480
So we had, we had a lot of
knowledge in a six man team.

256
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:19,360
We then spent the next three
years in, we assessed everything

257
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,720
they had, including their
frontline positions.

258
00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,880
ISIS were a very big problem at
that stage for Jordan.

259
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,240
We we then standardized their
equipment.

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00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,160
It amazes me that we have such a
famous person as an opponent who

261
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,240
pointed out to everybody you
want to win a war standardized,

262
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,520
or your cannons are the same, or
your your ammunition is the

263
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:40,400
same.
But supply?

264
00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,600
Yeah, absolutely.
And I still travel the world and

265
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,480
find that to be not the case in
in a lot of places.

266
00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,760
There are a lot of ivory towers
when you go to different

267
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,160
countries, Jordan being one of
them. 11 Prince control, 1

268
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,440
regiment, another Prince
control, another regiment.

269
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,800
Well, King Abdullah gave me full
authority to just scrap that and

270
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,320
start again.
And we literally did remove the

271
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,680
qualifications from everybody
who was qualified sniper and

272
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,040
make them go through training
again.

273
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,440
I wasn't popular for a while.
I bet.

274
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,920
But I was being paid to be
popular, I was being paid to

275
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,200
achieve an aim and I was lucky.
I worked directly to King

276
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,720
Abdullah's office.
The only person I answered to on

277
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,640
a day-to-day basis, I was Prince
Stella and we became very good

278
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,760
friends even now.
So anytime I had an issue, I

279
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,560
just spoke to Prince Stella, who
not only a Prince, but he was

280
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,080
also Brigadier General.
They commissioned me and my my

281
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,720
team into the Jordanian Royal
Guard, my commissioners, A

282
00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:43,200
Lieutenant Colonel, my second in
command was a major and my other

283
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:44,520
instructors were all my
captains.

284
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,720
So that we basically, we had the
military authority to get the

285
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,000
job done without people.
Well, you're a civilian.

286
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,920
You can't tell.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

287
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,440
We were we were also trusted and
cleared to carry firearms 24/7.

288
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,880
So and I spent a lot of time in
in offices alone with His

289
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,040
Majesty the King.
So we would we would definitely

290
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,960
trust him and our initial remit,
if you like, expanded quite

291
00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,800
considerably once we were in
country down to I planned and

292
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,960
oversaw a lot of state visits.
King Salman from Saudi coming

293
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,600
into to Jordan.
I plan to cover the sniper

294
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,880
coverage for that.
The Arab summit with all 22 Arab

295
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,280
states.
I plan to commanded that on the

296
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,800
sniper side open in a state
parliament.

297
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,160
There were a lot of stuff and
that included aerial platform

298
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,520
snipers and helicopters down to
snipers hiding in the desert

299
00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,200
just watching Rd. jump chicks.
Except.

300
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,240
Did you have to learn the
language or was that not an

301
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,080
issue?
No, I mean we we would.

302
00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,080
They gave us the option to go to
their Arabic language school,

303
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,880
which we did, but we had
interpreters with us 24/7.

304
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,400
And to be fair, a lot of the
Jordanians spoke very good

305
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,360
English.
I mean, Prince Salah certainly

306
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,760
speaks English better than I do.
So yeah, I was.

307
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,400
It wasn't anywhere near as
challenging as as we expected it

308
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,000
to be.
And the Jordanian people, very

309
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,839
much like the Indian people,
absolutely lovely people.

310
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,160
They welcomed us in every aspect
of their life.

311
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,079
We were involved in, in
everything from visiting some of

312
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:16,680
the Bedouin families, the
Jordanian royal guard Bedouin,

313
00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,079
all the way down to shooting the
young Prince and princesses at

314
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:24,560
paintball games.
So we we really were absorbed

315
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,760
into their system and treated
very, very kindly.

316
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:32,760
That had to be super exciting.
It, it really was it, it would

317
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:34,360
have been easy to let it go to
your head.

318
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,640
I mean, I could, as a Lieutenant
Colonel, I would walk into a

319
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:41,880
brigadier's office and I'd get
treated like the guest because

320
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,000
they knew I'd worked directly
for Prince Salah.

321
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,160
And I didn't want to upset
Prince Salah.

322
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:50,040
But I was always very careful,
you know, to salute when it was,

323
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,760
when it was appropriate to do
so, pay the normal respects.

324
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,040
There was a very clear cultural
routine.

325
00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,120
I would say when you, when you
visit somebody, there is, there

326
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:03,640
is tea, there is water, there is
cakes and there's, there's

327
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,320
either more tea and then there's
sort of Turkish coffee, which

328
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,600
kind of is a thing that finishes
the meeting.

329
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,080
So, and to just say, you know, I
don't want that is deemed to be

330
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:16,000
a little bit rude.
So you, you learn to follow the

331
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,760
process.
You learn all of the, the small

332
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,600
stuff that can actually be
offensive.

333
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,960
You know, you don't shake hands
with the left hand, you don't

334
00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,360
show people the, the soles of
your feet, which is all

335
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,040
considered to be rude in their
culture.

336
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,880
But they were also extremely
accommodating in understanding

337
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,720
that it wasn't our culture, but
they certainly appreciated when

338
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,720
we we put the effort in to live
as they would live and

339
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,000
understand what they would do.
And the hardest thing I think

340
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:47,720
for me was I was a cancer
survivor, very strong, very

341
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,440
dignified man and probably one
of the best soldiers I've I've

342
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:54,880
certainly met.
But he was vehemently against

343
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,240
smoking, which anybody that's
been to the Middle East,

344
00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:03,240
everybody still smokes a lot.
So when he made the sniper

345
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,520
school, because I, I designed
the sniper facility and then a

346
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,600
project manager's construction
and then, and then ran it for a

347
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,520
year before we handed it over
to, to the guy I was mentoring.

348
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,320
When he made that facility
non-smoking, that was quite

349
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:20,280
difficult to enforce because
they, they really didn't like

350
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,600
non-smoking, but rolls and rolls
pretty well.

351
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,520
I was the boss when he said it
couldn't be done, then we had to

352
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,760
make sure it wasn't.
Was he a smoker and that's what

353
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,160
caused the cancer?
I believe so.

354
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,640
Certainly.
I thought one night I was being

355
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,640
amazingly cultural and I told
him, you know, we put out for

356
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,200
coffee and everything that we
hubbly bubbly and all the rest

357
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,000
of the stuff, just a big sort of
container that you kind of smoke

358
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,520
and suck and it's flavour
etcetera.

359
00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,880
And he went, he went mad at me
because he was like, don't, he's

360
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:54,800
like, Colonel promised me you
will never do that again.

361
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,480
That is like smoking 20
cigarettes in one go.

362
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,200
Yes, pretty rough stuff.
Yeah, I didn't, I didn't know

363
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,840
that, you know, but I just
thought it was one of those fun

364
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,160
cultural things to do.
And it tasted like apple that

365
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,560
didn't even taste like a
cigarette.

366
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:08,920
But it's like that's how they
get you.

367
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:10,720
They flavour it.
Yeah.

368
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,800
And say that that was that was a
very interesting three years.

369
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,880
I then obviously came back to to
the States.

370
00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,640
COVID kind of hit not so long
after that, which caused an

371
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,840
awful lot of problem because.
Nobody had any training budgets

372
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,800
and everything was shut down.
So it became a difficult time.

373
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,560
But I took that time up
initially as part of a

374
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,560
challenge.
It had come out, the 22 veterans

375
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,360
a day in the UK and in the US
were committing suicide.

376
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,000
Some of my friends from the army
that we all challenged each

377
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:50,640
other that you have to do 22
push ups a day out of respect,

378
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,160
but you had to video it because
nobody trusts anybody in the

379
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,320
military.
And then we were encouraged to

380
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,960
tell a small story of anything
that had gone wrong in our life

381
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,240
and how we got through it.
Well, I, I lost, I lost my wife

382
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,080
to suicide.
That was, that's probably the

383
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,800
worst thing that happened in my
life.

384
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,240
Sorry to.
Hear that It's OK.

385
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:14,760
So it was you guys come on for
15 years ago now am I over it?

386
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,400
No, think, I don't think you
ever are.

387
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,280
Do I manage it?
Absolutely.

388
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,240
But at the time it was, it was
absolutely devastating.

389
00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,280
You know, my wife shot herself
in the room next to me.

390
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,080
I obviously heard the gunshot.
Well, told myself it wasn't a

391
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,520
gunshot because I didn't want it
to be.

392
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,520
But for me, and I guess even to
this day, the hardest thing for

393
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:40,160
me was calling her name and then
the silence that followed.

394
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,840
I've found her on our bedroom
floor.

395
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,640
It's pretty obvious what she'd
done.

396
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:49,640
And then you kind of the Army
just takes over.

397
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,120
Because I remember in my head I
just thought breathing,

398
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:58,000
bleeding, breaks, burns, and
they've kind of changed that

399
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,040
order nowadays.
But that was that was a

400
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,880
sequence.
It was hammered into my head and

401
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,400
I could tell from where she
collapsed there was enough room

402
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,560
to work on her.
So I just grabbed her by a shirt

403
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,120
and I and I dragged her across
the floor to the open space at

404
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:14,040
the end of the bed.
She wasn't breathing, so I knew

405
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:16,360
there was no point in doing
anything else unless I could get

406
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:22,160
her to breathe.
I remember I I hoped into her

407
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,240
mouth and that there was a lot
of stuff in her throat.

408
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,160
I I pulled all that out and she
suddenly took a huge breath in.

409
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,480
Hope is a, is a wonderful thing
and a terrible thing at the same

410
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,960
time.
So that hope that it was going

411
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,240
to be OK drove me to keep
trying.

412
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,600
I got a breathe in.
I could see the entry wound.

413
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,920
It was just, it was directly
under a chin, but I couldn't

414
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,920
find the exit wound.
It wasn't where I expected it to

415
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,640
be.
And there was a little bit of

416
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,320
panic.
I'm not going to lie, not being

417
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:57,080
able to find the exit wound and
therefore stuff that bleeded

418
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,800
caused a lot of anxiety.
So I eventually, I eventually

419
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,240
come up with a plan.
If I sat on the floor and I

420
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,480
pulled her up against me so her
back was, was on my chest, I

421
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,440
could keep my T-shirt underneath
her chin.

422
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,480
And by elevating the wound, I
would actually slow the blood

423
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,560
flow from the accident.
And I'd already called, called

424
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:24,040
the the police and paramedics.
I'd already shot MY2 German

425
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,440
shepherds away because I
particularly want them getting

426
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,640
shot.
And I'd left the front door open

427
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,160
so they could come in quicker.
And it took them turn around 12

428
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,880
minutes to go down.
That was, that was probably the

429
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,000
longest 12 minutes of my life.
And the, the thing that gave me

430
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,960
hope again was she kept lifting
her feet individually, placing

431
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,840
them on the floor.
And then she would push like she

432
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,920
was trying to stand up.
And she, she did that about

433
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,280
three times to the point that I
have to tell her to stop because

434
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,640
she was increasing the blood
flow she tried to get when the

435
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,920
paramedics arrived because I
heard him tell her to stop doing

436
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,440
it.
Last time I saw her was when

437
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,840
they they put her on the
helicopter.

438
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,880
They wouldn't let me on it.
They said there wasn't room.

439
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,200
Sadly by the time I got to the
hospital she was gone.

440
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,360
Like they got her to the
hospital but she she didn't make

441
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,360
it.
So COVID presented me with a

442
00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,800
challenge.
By the way, Mark, thank you for

443
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,360
having the strength to share
that with us.

444
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:26,520
No, I, I want to because one of
the things I'd like to talk

445
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,120
about is, is the book.
And she was she was the

446
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:35,360
inspiration me to write that
book because when I found out

447
00:24:35,360 --> 00:24:38,440
there were 22 veterans a day
committing suicide and that we'd

448
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,480
lost more the soldiers to
suicide than we had in the

449
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,920
conflicts is something's got to
be done.

450
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,000
After about day three of doing
this 22 push ups a day, a lot of

451
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,520
my friends were saying you
you've got to write a book now.

452
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:55,640
I'd written four books on
sniping already.

453
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,800
That was just, that's technical,
that's right about something I

454
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,880
did that was easy.
And they just kept pushing me to

455
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,080
write this book.
And in the end, I kind of

456
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,960
agreed.
And I realized PTSD is wrong,

457
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,600
calling it a disorder.
It's not a disorder, it's an

458
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,480
injury.
But by calling it a disorder,

459
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,600
nobody's coming forward.
Nobody wants to be labeled with

460
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,040
the word disorder.
So.

461
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,920
I totally makes sense to me.
I, I decided the book was going

462
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,520
to be about that.
It is, it is post traumatic

463
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,280
stress or as post traumatic
stress injury.

464
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,880
And I want you to write a book
that gave people a road map of,

465
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,760
of how to survive.
Because one of the things that I

466
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:47,400
was asked was you survived that.
You've got to tell people how

467
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,040
you survived it.
And I'm brutally honest in the

468
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,240
book.
I mean, and I'll be brutally

469
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,240
honest with you now, the best
part of three years, I'd put a

470
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,880
gun in my mouth almost daily
because I just couldn't deal

471
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,040
with it.
I would start fights.

472
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,360
Me and my friend would start
fights whenever we went out.

473
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:09,160
And it wasn't until I wrote the
book that I realized why.

474
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,480
And that came down to the simple
factors.

475
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,560
Soldiers are trained to deal
with pain, physical pain.

476
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,320
All men are are taught as they
grow up to deal with physical

477
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:22,320
pain.
You know you're down to push you

478
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,400
back into a fight.
Be tough, yeah.

479
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,040
Get tough, you've got to be
tough or you're going to be

480
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,240
walked over.
And I found that all the time I

481
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:33,280
was in physical pain, the mental
pain stopped because it was a

482
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,280
mental pain I couldn't deal
with.

483
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,040
My daughter flew over for she
was a police officer in London.

484
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,240
She flew over to sort of take
care of me for a while.

485
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,440
But it it was when she was out
and I was in the house on my

486
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,040
own.
That was when I picked a gun up.

487
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,880
And the only reason I'm alive
today is those two German

488
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,560
shepherds.
That's a fact.

489
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,400
They knew.
They knew every time I hit a low

490
00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,400
point and they knew every time I
picked a gun up there was a

491
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,840
problem and they both landed in
my lap so I I couldn't get the

492
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,680
gun.
In my head it's amazing how

493
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,840
dialled in animals are.
They absolutely knew.

494
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,640
And so I decided I would write a
book.

495
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,800
But I realized I had to get
across to the world that it

496
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,320
isn't a military condition, it's
a human condition.

497
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,720
Is the kid who's getting
bullied?

498
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,680
It's called the wife.
Or the woman who's in a, an

499
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,640
abusive relationship, a young
nurse Doctor Who's just lost the

500
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,680
patient that they've fought so
hard to save a police officer or

501
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,560
a firefighter who's just had to
cut somebody out of a car and

502
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,320
seemed what speed and it's
smashed into the back of a truck

503
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,520
does to a human body.
It isn't just the military, it's

504
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,160
a human condition.
So I wanted people to stop

505
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,440
calling a disorder and I, I
wanted to get across the, the

506
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,440
government needs to spend money
on it because it isn't a

507
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,040
military condition.
It's human condition.

508
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,920
And nobody's coming forward
because civilians won't say I

509
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:11,680
think I've got PTSD or I've got
PTSI because they're convinced

510
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:16,400
you can't even been to war.
Now, do soldiers see the worst

511
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,920
that mankind can do to each
other?

512
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,440
Absolutely we do.
But it's no less or more

513
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,120
traumatic than picking a young
kid up out of a burnt out house

514
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:29,760
that you couldn't get to.
It's no less traumatic than

515
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,880
being terrified of going to
school because you're going to

516
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,840
be abused all day, or worrying
when you hear the key in the

517
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,280
door when your your drunk
husband's coming home and he's

518
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:40,640
going to beat you around the
house.

519
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,280
There's no difference.
So I realized the book wasn't

520
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,880
going to be about me as a
soldier, it was going to be

521
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,000
about my life.
So I sat down and I went through

522
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,760
stories and I think the first
one really when I was about 6-5

523
00:28:54,760 --> 00:29:00,320
or six, and then I picked points
through my life, the from

524
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,520
eventually going to a therapist
I found out had actually

525
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,960
seriously affected my life and I
just buried it, buried trauma.

526
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,160
I don't want you to stop your
thought process, but I'd like to

527
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,680
ask you what catalyzed you going
from.

528
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,760
I'm having this really bad time
in my mind and my daughter's

529
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,880
here.
When she's gone, I feel like

530
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,040
taking my life to actually say,
OK, I've got to pull my shit

531
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,440
together and write this book and
maybe I could have an impact

532
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,840
that way, and so I've got to
pull myself together to get that

533
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:37,640
done.
What was?

534
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,720
What was the catalyst?
Well, for me, it was a case of

535
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,640
every time, every time.
My sort of depression, PTSI,

536
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,560
whichever you want to call it,
it feels like you're spiraling

537
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,360
down out of control.
Something triggers you.

538
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,440
And one of the things that my
therapist told me, because I

539
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,960
wouldn't go to a therapist for
over a decade, my attitude was

540
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,480
I'm I'm a big tough soldier.
I can deal with this.

541
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,720
And I was wrong.
I was absolutely wrong.

542
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,720
But they told me what my
triggers were.

543
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,000
So now I know the feeling of
when it's starting and I don't

544
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,120
know how I can stop it because a
therapist would teach you

545
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,240
everything from meditation to
breathing exercises that calms

546
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,280
you down and stops it.
Because it felt like I was

547
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,800
spiraling out of control.
And the way I explained it was

548
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,960
every curve was almost me
ticking something off.

549
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Has a sword?
It's a sword.

550
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,560
Bill's a sword.
And the only reason I never got

551
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,440
to the bottom of that spiral was
two German shepherds because

552
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,960
they would interrupt that
thought process.

553
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,320
And when they interrupted that
thought process and I stopped

554
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,880
thinking about it and I thought
about something else, hope

555
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,960
popped in.
And I was, I would shout at the

556
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200
dogs.
There were even times I

557
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,120
literally threw them off to my
detriment and they hit the

558
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,120
ground and came straight back
and.

559
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,640
Landed on me.
And I'd, I would literally out

560
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,320
loud say sometimes, OK, I'll do
it tomorrow.

561
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,760
You got it, I wonder.
And I'd put the gun down.

562
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,800
So they put the gun down.
They just laid it the side of

563
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,520
me.
If I went anywhere near that

564
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:25,920
gun, they climbed on top of me.
And that you learn to deal with

565
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,440
grief better every day.
And I eventually said to myself,

566
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:30,880
I just got to get to it
tomorrow.

567
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,840
I want to get to tomorrow.
I've just got to get to

568
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,520
tomorrow.
And I did it one day at a time.

569
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,480
I had a plan.
I was going to follow her on the

570
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,680
1st anniversary.
I absolutely had a plan.

571
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,200
And one friend stopped me
because we went out drinking

572
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,640
that night.
Everyone thought I was great.

573
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,760
I was playing a role.
And this is one of the the

574
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,880
things about, you know, Ptsi is
you shut yourself down and you

575
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,400
play a game.
So nobody really knows what's

576
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,400
going on in your life because
you don't want to be

577
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,480
interrupted.
And on the the actual first year

578
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,360
anniversary about her death, we
were all out drinking one night

579
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,120
and I was pretending to be
drinking and everything else.

580
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,720
And I really wasn't.
And I'll just wait until

581
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,960
everyone was having a good time
because 8:45 at night was when

582
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,880
she pulled the trigger. 840I
slipped out the back door of the

583
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,960
bar and I went out into the into
the darkened car lot and just

584
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,720
sat on the wall.
I had a 10/11 on my hip and I

585
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,400
was just waiting.
And then literally about a

586
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,520
minute before a voice out the
dark, which is all my friends

587
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:33,680
just said to me, what are you
doing?

588
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,480
He'd notice I was gone.
And I said, I'm just getting

589
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,360
some fresh air, you know, go
back in, I'll be fine.

590
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,280
And he sat next to me on the
wall.

591
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,040
And he just said, well, if
you're going to do it, I'm going

592
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,320
to sit here with you.
And he broke the moon.

593
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,320
He broke that spiral down.
And I didn't.

594
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,560
And it was, there's always a
reason not to do it.

595
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,200
And normally anything that
interrupts that downward spiral,

596
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,000
something pops that reason into
your head At.

597
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,280
At one stage I can remember
thinking, well, I might as well

598
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,160
stay until 2012 and see if the
world ends.

599
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,440
Yeah, the Mayan calendar or
whatever.

600
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:12,000
It was.
Yeah.

601
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,240
If the if the Mayans are wrong,
yeah, I'll do it then.

602
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,000
Yeah, right.
But you, you literally get

603
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,120
stronger and stronger every day.
So in writing the book, I wrote

604
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:27,600
up a whole series of things I
got wrong in life and how it led

605
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,400
to the fact that my wife's
suicide pretty much pushed me

606
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,480
over the edge.
Nothing in my military career

607
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,320
was that drastic.
I've got blown up.

608
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,760
I've seen various other things.
Nothing bothered me not being

609
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,960
able to save my wife that that
bothered me a lot.

610
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,200
That would screw you up.
Pretty bad.

611
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,360
I was determined to to end it,
but on my terms.

612
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,960
And I believe in God.
I don't necessarily believe in

613
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,480
religion, but I do believe that
there is there is a God

614
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,400
somewhere, whether it's whether
you want to call it God, the

615
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:57,840
universe, whatever you want to
call it.

616
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:01,440
I don't think there's any doubt,
Mark, that there's something

617
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:07,200
divine what what you have faith
in, because you know, it's

618
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,520
pretty clear something's going
on.

619
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,440
It's super perfect.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's almost

620
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,760
impossible to believe that there
isn't some divinity.

621
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,080
And you don't have to attach
yourself to a dogma to embrace

622
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,400
that, right?
Absolutely.

623
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,760
And you know, for the people to
go to me, science, science,

624
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,199
science, you go.
How many times in science have

625
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,840
people said this is absolute?
And then someone like Einstein

626
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,480
comes along and they go, OK, we
were wrong.

627
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,560
So when they say they more prove
there's a God, my answer is

628
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,159
prove there isn't.
You know, there's it's much

629
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:41,679
harder for you to prove there
isn't.

630
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,480
Totally.
And when you look at the way

631
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,639
that the universe is constructed
and how much we find out almost

632
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,920
every day, it's too perfect for
me.

633
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,080
It's just too perfect to be this
random solution.

634
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:03,520
So for me, it was God every day
put something in front of me.

635
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:05,320
Just stop me pulling that
trigger.

636
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,280
So I, I wrote the book and one
of the things I, I put in the

637
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,000
book was it it never truly
copes.

638
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,200
You know, it's always, and I
explained it that you, you kind

639
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,200
of walk into the darkness inside
your own head and, and the

640
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,600
further down that spiral you go,
the deeper into the dark you get

641
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,640
until you get lost.
You have no way to find your way

642
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,480
out.
And all the time the darkness is

643
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,000
trying to convince you.
It's your friend, you know, you

644
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,280
know, you really would be better
off on the other side.

645
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,920
You're ruining everybody else's
life.

646
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,040
And you end up listening.
I think that's what happens for

647
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,040
a lot of people.
Making arguments with yourself.

648
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,200
Whether you're arguing with
yourself or whether you're

649
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,000
arguing with the devil, I don't.
I don't know.

650
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,120
But you're arguing with somebody
and you know when you come into

651
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,560
your own house, you know exactly
where the light switch is and

652
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:53,960
you hit it every time I turn it
on.

653
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,400
That's familiarity, that's
muscle memory, like playing

654
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,200
darts, etcetera.
Well, when you start walking

655
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:03,360
into the darkness of your own
head, you don't know where the

656
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:08,000
light switch is.
Pretty soon you're lost and the

657
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,640
darkness suddenly becomes your
own, your only friend.

658
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,360
And I tried to convey that in
the book of how I felt.

659
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,560
And I had no idea what I was
going to call it.

660
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,600
And I was writing down various
names that the book could be

661
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,760
called.
And then just something inside

662
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,000
my head just said out dance the
devil.

663
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,440
And I just went, OK, that's it.
The books out dance the devil.

664
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,320
Now, I don't know whether I did
this on purpose or whether I'm

665
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,880
just really bad English, but I
might out dance one word.

666
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,000
So it's out dance the devil
instead of separate words.

667
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,600
Why?
I don't know, but I just, I just

668
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,560
heard that voice in my head and,
and I wrote it down and that's

669
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,480
pretty much what it is.
Now.

670
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:52,800
That was, oh, that was a good
few years ago now, but the

671
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:58,520
initial publisher I just didn't
feel was looking to achieve the

672
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,120
same things I was looking to
achieve.

673
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,640
I wanted to save lives.
I wanted to get people to stop

674
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,880
calling it a disorder to the
injury.

675
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:09,840
And a doctor that worked with me
on part of the book explained it

676
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,760
best was he said, your brain is
no different than your little

677
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,920
finger.
If you break it, you can heal

678
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,280
it.
It can be repaired, but the

679
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:24,240
longer you take to treat it, the
harder it is to fix.

680
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,640
And he said, we really don't
know that much about the brain

681
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,280
even now.
But for me, the first time I

682
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,680
went to to a therapist, you
know, one of the first questions

683
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,240
she asked me, well, she said,
you know, what is your very

684
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:46,040
first memory from being a child?
And I can remember thinking what

685
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,080
the heck has that got to do with
what I'm here for?

686
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,040
And then within two minutes
later, I'd remembered the very

687
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,880
first thing I'd remembered.
And I was falling my eyes out

688
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,920
and it was my dad kicked me out
the bus.

689
00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:04,680
I was about 5 or 6 in front of
the whole family and everyone

690
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,800
burst out laughing and my dad
was my hero.

691
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,800
So that crushed me and I ended
up running upstairs in tears.

692
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,120
My mum come found me and then my
dad got the worst day of his

693
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,000
life.
But that stuck with me.

694
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,200
And then she asked me, what's
your first or worst memory about

695
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,640
your mum?
There was one.

696
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,240
And we basically went through my
life and as I was listening, I

697
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:32,160
was writing the book because I
was thinking, OK, all of these

698
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,520
things shaped who I became.
My fears, my prejudices and

699
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,640
everything else was created in
my youth.

700
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,120
And then the army added to it
and the whole man up syndrome

701
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,680
that we all face means you just
bury it.

702
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,000
They even tell you, forget it,
bury it, move on.

703
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,760
And to be caught honest as a
soldier, you have to, you know,

704
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,080
other people's lies are sake,
especially if you're a leader.

705
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,600
You have to keep going.
But you also have to remember

706
00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:06,400
you need to get it out.
And for me that became crying.

707
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,680
All my life I was told and
trained men don't cry.

708
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:16,800
We should because that to me is
that's the bodies way of

709
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,040
emptying the tank.
So now I say to people, if you

710
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,680
get to that stage where you're
tearful, go somewhere quiet if

711
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:29,520
you want to bore your eyes out
until you can't cry anymore and

712
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,200
you're for great afterwards.
And you do.

713
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,320
And it's like someone just
emptied the tank.

714
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Now you can take the world on
again, but if you keep burying

715
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,680
it, eventually you're going to
blow sometimes depended on other

716
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,160
things that have happened in
your life that isn't pretty for

717
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,440
the rest of the world, you know.
And I think with all the

718
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,880
cutbacks and everything else and
mental health issues and all the

719
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,400
rest of it, that's caused a
problem.

720
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,880
But hopefully the book has done
some good.

721
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,720
I certainly still get a lot of
emails from people I've never

722
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:01,520
met that just thanked me for
writing the book and saying that

723
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,760
until I'd written in the book,
they thought they were the only

724
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,080
people that felt like they were
spiraling out of control.

725
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,280
So I I just.
I just wrote the book as

726
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:14,680
honestly as I possibly could
after, but it took a while for

727
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,440
me to publish it because I
thought it made me look weak and

728
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,600
a full.
So I sent the manuscript to

729
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,120
several people I truly trust.
Mentors of mine, very very close

730
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,880
friends of mine.
Same question.

731
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,840
Does this make me look stupid?
That's an ego issue.

732
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,640
But but we all have, but I was
thinking, you know, and I was

733
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,440
also thinking, is this going to
affect my career?

734
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,040
You know, people are going to
read this and go, oh, I'm not

735
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,040
deploying him.
He's a lunatic more he's weak.

736
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,200
Every one of them said you have
to publish this book.

737
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,520
So I did.
And most of them wrote

738
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,160
references for me in the first
couple of pages of the book.

739
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,640
And it's been a, it's been a
success so far.

740
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:00,240
But I'm, I'm looking to reboot
the book because I don't think

741
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,600
my initial publisher published
it in the way that I wanted to.

742
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,440
It was only ever on Amazon.
I didn't do the audio book

743
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,760
because I didn't agree with the
way they were doing it.

744
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,320
So I'd like to kind of reboot
that and get that back out there

745
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,080
again.
And at the moment, our mutual

746
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,240
friend Meganner and another very
good friend of mine are doing

747
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:25,000
their best to have it made into
a movie because we they agree

748
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,040
with the message and they're
trying to get the message out

749
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,920
there to the whole world.
What do you think?

750
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,080
It's clear.
Let me ask it differently.

751
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,360
I have always been puzzled by
how badly the US treats their

752
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:45,880
veterans, because one could
argue without much resistance,

753
00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:51,840
that these people deserve the
best healthcare, they observe

754
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:57,800
the best to reintegrate.
They deserve almost everything

755
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,800
because they're preserving
freedom for the rest of us.

756
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:06,000
And I don't know, and I don't
know how the citizenry of the UK

757
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,960
feel about that, but let's just
talk about the US because that's

758
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:11,200
the.
UK is worse, 10 times worse.

759
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,440
Yeah.
The UK people love their

760
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,160
veterans, they love their
military.

761
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,440
The UK government does
absolutely nothing for veterans.

762
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:26,000
And is it, I've, I've tried to
process that and maybe you're on

763
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,440
to something here.
And I mean that the most

764
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,800
affectionate way, not without,
not without, is that if you

765
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:37,960
treat it as a condition rather
when, when something like in

766
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,080
your experience with the
military, the mission is this

767
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,960
and you got thrown a curve, then
you pivot and you adjust to get

768
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,760
the mission done.
With the military treatment of

769
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,800
the the treatment of our
veterans in the US, there's no

770
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,160
urgency.
These people are just

771
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,960
floundering and nobody's feeding
the hell to the fire to make it

772
00:42:59,960 --> 00:43:04,400
right.
There's no, there's no really a

773
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,760
threat of something else
happening.

774
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,760
If we don't do that, it sort of
gets wasted away.

775
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,680
And some, you know, we have the
problem like a lot of other

776
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,800
democracies have in that we
spend money on things that say

777
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,360
they're going to have some
impact, but no one ever measures

778
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,280
it like you would in a business.
And so it's just the optics that

779
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,680
get accolades but no result,
right.

780
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,920
And so I always thought that
nobody's being held accountable

781
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,600
for the outcomes.
So that's why it doesn't get

782
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,960
better.
I mean, I, I've said to to

783
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,400
various businesses that I've
been speaking about, it's

784
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,080
because obviously I've done a
lot on the on the security

785
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:44,360
sideline.
But one of the things I used to

786
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,000
do was we would try and gain
entry to corporate locations by

787
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,520
lying, deceiving, passing their
security, whatever.

788
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,800
And to be honest, it is very
easy and one of the things I've

789
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,640
suggested to multiple companies
is if you have a lot of CCTV

790
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,360
cameras where somebody's got to
sit and watch a screen all day

791
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,480
long, employ a disabled veteran.
They're already trained

792
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,080
observers, they're already
security aware.

793
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,040
They have to sit down.
There's not much they can do.

794
00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:17,920
But you're giving them a chance
to be involved again, be

795
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,360
important again, have a mission
again.

796
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,360
Make a valuable contribution.
They've got all those skills

797
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,040
that never get tapped because
maybe they can't walk up and

798
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,040
down stairs.
Put them in front of a screen,

799
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:30,320
let them do your security for
you.

800
00:44:30,720 --> 00:44:33,920
Let them send the able bodied
people to where the problem is.

801
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,000
They'd be great at it.
And I'm always looking for for

802
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:42,640
teams like that to put together
the, the current project I'm

803
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:45,520
working on at the moment with,
with Granite Valley Group is

804
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:50,880
we're looking at converting a
high end horse property with

805
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,280
five star accommodation,
everything else on it already

806
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,360
into a very exclusive training
conference facility, not just

807
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,840
for the, the high end military,
but also for corporate like you

808
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,200
can host corporate retreats
there, corporate team building.

809
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,960
1 of the things we want to do is
we want to host, you know,

810
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,080
traumatic injury military
veterans down there on, on sort

811
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,240
of weekends.
Let them let them all get

812
00:45:13,240 --> 00:45:14,400
together and feel important
again.

813
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,320
You know what that that's a
thing on work at the moment.

814
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,240
And one of that thing is, you
know, we're going to have CCTV

815
00:45:21,240 --> 00:45:22,640
cameras down there.
One of the things I've put

816
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,280
forward again is the best people
we can have operate in the

817
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,480
drones, operating the cameras,
the disabled veterans, because

818
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,760
they have a security training
embedded in them already.

819
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,520
Their hands are great, their
brains are great.

820
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,200
They could work a drone probably
better than me, to be quite

821
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:42,400
honest.
You bet when that stage were in

822
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,280
the early stages.
We're still looking for

823
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:49,240
investors into that, but that's
going to incorporate multiple

824
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,560
aspects.
It's in Texas, so we have a lot

825
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,880
of scope to run everything from
private security training and

826
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,400
net worth individuals who want
to learn, defend them,

827
00:46:00,720 --> 00:46:03,400
themselves and their families.
Or you know, get some of the

828
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,200
very experienced SF guys to come
down and and host an evening

829
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,320
with where everyone's
comfortable.

830
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,680
There's an 8 foot security fence
around the whole location.

831
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,680
Nobody's getting in that we
don't want in and give something

832
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,000
back to the country, both on the
corporate level.

833
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:22,120
Put a skiff in down there.
So whether it's the military or

834
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,720
corporate, they can do all their
business in total privacy and

835
00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,160
also have the luxury that maybe
they're used to.

836
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,920
So that's we're always looking
to improve and give back.

837
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,080
And one thing I want to do now
is, is give back to what is now

838
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,680
my country, America.
I'm a very proud American now.

839
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,560
So I gave 25 years of my life to
the British Army and the UK.

840
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,760
Now, I'd like to give whatever
time I've got left to the US,

841
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,560
and that includes, you know,
this current project we're doing

842
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:54,520
now and as many other projects
as I can I can get my hands on.

843
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,960
I'm unlikely to retire after.
I think if I retire, I'll have

844
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,440
to get in trouble or I'll just
die.

845
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:01,040
Yeah.
Yeah.

846
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,560
I don't think retirements things
have changed.

847
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:07,560
I've always felt like I've I've
said this before, my sister had

848
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,920
really no idea what I do for the
longest time.

849
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:14,720
You know, I'm just an investor
connecting the dots.

850
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:20,080
But the she said, So what, are
you in Arizona or No, No, she

851
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,120
said, are you in Colorado?
I said, no, I'm in Utah for part

852
00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,360
of the time she goes, are you
retired?

853
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,040
And I said, why would I ever do
that?

854
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,200
You know, in my idea of
retirement is I, I, I have a

855
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,160
better control on my calendar
and that's nice, but no, I'm not

856
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,920
stopping.
Life's too short to stop.

857
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:38,120
Oh.
And there's there's.

858
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,920
Still, we have a winter.
There's still so much in here

859
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,320
from my life that isn't in a
book.

860
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,840
It isn't in a document anywhere.
I just want to give it back.

861
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,440
Otherwise, we do this, I learn
it, nobody records it.

862
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,320
Somebody else spending all these
years to learn what I already

863
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:55,280
know down here.
We need to transfer knowledge

864
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:58,760
better.
Well, have what would be helpful

865
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:03,960
in relation to not just the book
and the movie, but having people

866
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:10,320
look at it the way you've been
able to to discern that it's not

867
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,840
a condition, it's an injury.
What what would be helpful for

868
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:21,440
people to get to that point?
And let me ask also, are people

869
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,360
more willing to step forward to
say I have an injury that's

870
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,760
caused this because seemingly
they would rather than a

871
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:31,440
condition to get?
Absolutely.

872
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,760
And the most obvious example is
TBI.

873
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,720
You know, traumatic brain injury
is now a recognized injury for

874
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,280
for military operators.
You can't be blowing things up,

875
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:44,280
shooting guns and various other
stuff without your brain getting

876
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:49,040
knocked around.
Now, 90% of us seem to be OK,

877
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,840
but there are guys that really
suffer from TBI.

878
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,360
But it injury, they're not
calling it traumatic brain

879
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:59,000
disorder, they're calling it
traumatic brain injury.

880
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,160
So I guess whether it's Mr.
Kennedy at the top of the tree

881
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,600
or whether it's just getting,
you know, the medical profession

882
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:11,240
to stop calling it a disorder,
then people will come forward.

883
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,600
We get injured from the time
we're born upwards.

884
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,520
We don't mind being injured.
You know, there's a certain

885
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,560
element that says chicks like
scars and people like stories.

886
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,920
We'll do that for an injury.
I'm not talking about a disorder

887
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,760
that makes me sound weak, that
makes me sound like can't be

888
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:33,720
fixed or that maybe I'm some
time bomb waiting to go off so

889
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:37,240
people won't come forward.
I mean, I certainly didn't I, I

890
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:40,280
didn't want to talk to anybody
about on when I was first told,

891
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,960
you know, you're you're
suffering PTSD and and deep

892
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:44,440
depression from your own
suicide.

893
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,360
My first answer was no, no,
Yeah, fine.

894
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,400
No, no, they weren't.
You are.

895
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,880
And they explained, OK.
Do you do this?

896
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:56,880
Do you feel this?
Do you?

897
00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:57,840
Yeah.
Yeah.

898
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,760
And I was like, it's not a
disorder and I do not have a

899
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,440
disorder.
So but if they said to me young

900
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,880
brain injury, I would have
accepted it immediately and said

901
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:10,960
how do I fix it?
How do I fix it?

902
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:15,320
Have you explored and have any
thoughts or comments on the

903
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:21,960
whole trauma healing talk that
goes around psilocybin and

904
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,040
ibogaine and those type of
modalities?

905
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,920
Have you had any exposure to
that?

906
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,160
I have not, no.
I know there's there's a lot of

907
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,560
good things being done towards
it now, but usually comes down

908
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,840
to lack of funding or people
won't come forward because

909
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,360
they're not admitting to a
disorder.

910
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:43,000
I haven't had another American
special forces friend say to me,

911
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,760
I will not.
And this was President Biden was

912
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,480
was still in position at that
stage and the whole gun lobby

913
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,560
was trying to ban guns.
And he said I am not ever

914
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,040
admitting to a disorder because
somebody eventually will use

915
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,600
that to take my guns off of me.
Take my guns away, that's

916
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:00,520
exactly.
Right.

917
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,160
So he would, he wouldn't even go
and see a doctor just in case he

918
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,200
didn't want anything on a
medical record that said

919
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,160
disorder.
So you're not going to get

920
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,520
people come forward.
And the the sad thing about that

921
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,040
is it's, it's higher than 22 a
day now.

922
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,640
So it's it's not getting better.
So sad.

923
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,480
You know, and this is, this is
guys and girls who just don't

924
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,640
feel they have anywhere to turn.
And one of the things I can tell

925
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:29,560
you I experienced was I, I
isolated myself because the

926
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,080
first thing you do is you call
your friends, your military

927
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,560
friends and you you say I'm not
doing well and they're going to

928
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,840
need help.
And they tell you the only thing

929
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,960
they've ever been trained to
tell you, you're fine.

930
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,280
You can do this.
You're strong.

931
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:45,720
Enough sucked it up.
Right up.

932
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,160
Man up comes out every time.
And then you you hang up the

933
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,080
phone and for about 10 minutes
you feel, yeah, that was good.

934
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,520
And then you suddenly go, I'm a
burden.

935
00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:57,440
I've just let them down.
They're in the Army.

936
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:58,800
They're they're still risking
their lives.

937
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,480
I I I'm a bird.
And you never call your friends

938
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:02,960
after that.
Yeah.

939
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:04,480
And then you start never going
out.

940
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,720
That's really important to
share, Mark, because it's it's

941
00:52:09,240 --> 00:52:11,920
what you said.
I hadn't thought about that way

942
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,360
except in the context of, for
example, we have friends that

943
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,720
like to smoke marijuana, but
they won't get a credentialed

944
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,320
license to buy it because they
don't want their guns taken

945
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,880
away, right?
Makes.

946
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,520
Sense it actually does.
And you know, people say to me

947
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:35,720
multiple times I never ever
enlisted does, you know, a

948
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:37,280
disorder.
And I think the medical

949
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,920
profession, they know it isn't a
disorder.

950
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,360
They know it's every doctor.
Sunder actually pointed out to

951
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,360
me it's a brain injury.
It can be fixed.

952
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:50,160
I just want the medical
profession to stop calling it a

953
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,840
disorder so we can actually
start helping people stop people

954
00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:57,760
taking their own lives.
You have a copy of the book

955
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,520
there to hold up.
Handy, I can get one.

956
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:03,080
Give me 30 seconds.
Yeah, take your time.

957
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:08,200
Almost missed the chair then.
Yeah, as the book.

958
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,560
Here we go.
Out dance the devil.

959
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,720
Yeah, I mean, they came up with
a great cover.

960
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:16,960
Yeah, scary.
An interested line that I can't

961
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,840
claim credit for, and you know
the subtitle is a sniper's

962
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,160
account of the scariest enemy he
enemy he ever fought.

963
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,960
Me it's a good line.
Like what?

964
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,400
What's wrong?
And it is true, everybody's ever

965
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,680
scared me in my life apart from
me.

966
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:38,080
When I thought about giving up
2-3 times a day, you know that I

967
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:41,800
would have missed all this, you
know, and I say to people now

968
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,360
you know, you, you never know
what's just around the corner.

969
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:49,800
So get to tomorrow.
Once you get to tomorrow, get to

970
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,040
tomorrow.
Because eventually you'll be

971
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:54,600
going to get to the end of the
week, then you'll be going to

972
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,160
get to the end of the month.
Then you'll be thinking about

973
00:53:57,160 --> 00:54:00,640
next year.
Will you have days that are very

974
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:01,720
difficult?
Absolutely.

975
00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:04,960
I still have days where I don't
particularly know why.

976
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,920
I just become very tearful and
I've learnt to understand that.

977
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,520
That's just me saying probably
follow up.

978
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,200
Yeah, I need to empty.
I need to go and empty the tank.

979
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,400
Fine, today, not a problem at
all.

980
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:20,600
Don't have suicidal thoughts,
loving life.

981
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:25,000
But there was a time when all I
wanted was my life to be over.

982
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:28,960
But being a soldier and having
kids and, you know, things that

983
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:30,880
to look after, I had to put
everything.

984
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,080
I had to have a plan.
I had to put everything in order

985
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,360
before I could do this because
otherwise, and I'll consider

986
00:54:36,360 --> 00:54:38,720
myself to be selfish.
And, and that led me to believe

987
00:54:38,720 --> 00:54:43,040
that I've heard people say that
suicide is a is cowardly.

988
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,160
It most certainly is not.
It takes a lot of courage, not

989
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,640
knowing really what's on the
other side and to pull that

990
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,680
trigger, swallow those tablets,
jump off that bridge.

991
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,960
But it is selfish.
You don't mean to be selfish.

992
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,880
You're in a horrible dark place.
You definitely don't need to be

993
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,520
selfish.
You think you're doing everybody

994
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,320
a favour, but all you actually
do as you transfer all of that

995
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:10,480
pain that's just stopped in you.
Everybody who loved you, because

996
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,600
everybody else would do what I
did.

997
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,200
And they will then wonder why
wasn't I strong enough?

998
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,080
Why wasn't, why didn't she talk
to me?

999
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:21,800
Why didn't she tell me what was
going on?

1000
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,040
Yeah, that's the selfish part.
Right.

1001
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:27,640
And you destroy yourself because
you couldn't save them.

1002
00:55:28,720 --> 00:55:31,320
You don't mean to be selfish.
You know, when I, when I was in

1003
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:34,000
that place, the reason I had a
plan was because I wanted to

1004
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:35,640
make sure it was as easy on
other people.

1005
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:38,920
I even planned to lay out
plastic on the floor so they

1006
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,800
could clean me up much easier
because I know some old police

1007
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:43,840
officer or paramedics is going
to have to find me.

1008
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:46,520
Yeah.
And I didn't want that to

1009
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,840
happen.
But it was still going to be

1010
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,560
amazingly selfish to to my son
and my daughter, my mum, to to

1011
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:58,320
my my friends and colleagues who
maybe you'd just see me an hour

1012
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:00,760
or the day before and there
would be times I'd go out

1013
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:04,440
drinking with all my friends and
then I'd be the solar bike.

1014
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:07,840
The second I came back through
my front door I collapsed.

1015
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:11,720
I just cut up to the floor and
didn't want to move.

1016
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,720
Do you, would you say that
you've said it in some some ways

1017
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:21,240
that the therapy definitely
helped?

1018
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,280
Absolutely.
I've had no time for therapists

1019
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,320
whatsoever until I went to one.
And then I realised that these

1020
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:31,400
people actually very, very good
at walking you down an alleyway

1021
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:32,920
in a route that you don't want
to go down.

1022
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,280
It's for your own good, but they
make you face things that you

1023
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,200
don't want to face.
And me as a rafty, tufty

1024
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:44,080
soldier, I didn't want to have
it pointed out to me that I

1025
00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:46,800
wasn't strong enough.
You know, I didn't want it

1026
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:51,280
pointed out to me that I was
making mistakes, that I was ill.

1027
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:55,000
I had an injury, and I didn't
know it, and I had to face it.

1028
00:56:56,680 --> 00:57:01,560
Yeah, I didn't like it, but it
was probably the best thing I

1029
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,680
ever did.
And I strongly recommend people

1030
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,760
go to see a therapist.
They're very good at what they

1031
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:11,280
do.
And the argument has been

1032
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,560
historically is that you need to
talk to somebody who doesn't

1033
00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:20,560
have skin in the game, your
friends, your family, somebody

1034
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:23,040
that it's not that they're not
going to be square with you, but

1035
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:26,280
they have skin in the game to
maybe lie to you a little bit to

1036
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,440
keep you from.
And they do You're fright.

1037
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,560
Your friends most definitely
lied to you because they're

1038
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,520
trying to help you.
They're not sure you can take

1039
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:35,440
the truth.
My only advice on on a therapist

1040
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,480
would be I went to three
different therapists in one day.

1041
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,120
Like an initial assessment, but
they wanted to speak to me and I

1042
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:45,400
then chose the one I felt most
comfortable with.

1043
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,640
And that worked for me because I
think it's going to be good

1044
00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:56,000
about therapists, you know, and
I think a lot of it is whether

1045
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:59,280
you click with them.
So I went to C3 in one day and I

1046
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,520
chose the one that I felt most
comfortable with and, and then

1047
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,880
stuck with it.
My initial attitude was, why do

1048
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,120
I go to therapists?
You know, they'll listen to me

1049
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:11,920
for an hour, then I'm going to
leave.

1050
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:14,880
And if I run out of money, they
don't want to listen to me at

1051
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,800
all.
So I I decided it was fake and I

1052
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,360
wasn't going to do it and I was
wrong.

1053
00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:25,920
I was 100% wrong.
What got you over the hump to go

1054
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,880
to the therapist to begin with?
Make it beyond that.

1055
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:30,400
I don't want to go to a
therapist.

1056
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,160
I think it was realizing I
wasn't, I wasn't getting past

1057
00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,800
one doing my life, but it took
me a decade.

1058
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,200
It was a decade before I went to
a therapist.

1059
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,600
I would I'd say the first three
years were the worse you.

1060
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:52,160
There are things I apparently
did during those three years I

1061
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:57,680
still have no recollection of.
And I think the brain very, very

1062
00:58:57,680 --> 00:59:01,400
specifically shuts things out
for your own mental well.

1063
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,720
Being I'm going to get this
wrong with they say trauma is

1064
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:07,360
the thief right?
And it was, it was then there

1065
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,640
were a couple of other things
that went wrong in my life in

1066
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,200
that, in that 10 years where
you, I certainly got to the

1067
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,360
stage where you think, OK
enough.

1068
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,200
I've tried, I've tried to get
back on my feet.

1069
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:22,360
I cannot get up again.
And then I just read a meme that

1070
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,360
said, get knocked down 7 times,
get up 8.

1071
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:28,600
And then the Army started me
coming.

1072
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,320
I've never quit.
And I went, you know what?

1073
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:34,200
I'm not going to do this.
I won't quit, but if I had to

1074
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:39,880
pick one thing that that saved
my life, Dogs.

1075
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,160
Dogs, without doubt my dogs.
I'm a great believer.

1076
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,320
That dog is God spelled
backwards for a reason, and if

1077
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,960
there's ever an Angel on this
planet, it's got 4 legs and

1078
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:53,840
foot.
Yeah, boy, they are so dialed

1079
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:56,280
in.
They they can feel what you're

1080
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,720
feeling.
They know when they're needed

1081
00:59:59,920 --> 01:00:03,120
and you could take the trash out
and they're just happy to see it

1082
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:06,080
when you come back in the door.
There's a joke in England that

1083
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,640
says, you know, how do you know
that dog is man's best friend?

1084
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,440
And the answer being you lock
your wife and your dog in the

1085
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,080
garage for an hour and see which
one's pleased to see you when

1086
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:20,640
you open the door.
So pretty true.

1087
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:25,760
But no, I've got, I've got 7 of
them now as we spoke about at

1088
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:28,240
the beginning for you.
Yeah, they're all German

1089
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:29,880
Shepherds.
I don't know whether that was a

1090
01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:32,560
mistake or whether God thinks
I've got I've got some more

1091
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,640
trauma to come up yet and I'm
going to need more than two, but

1092
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:39,000
they most certainly make any day
brighter.

1093
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:41,480
Yeah, the German Shepherds are
great too.

1094
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,640
It's not really a joke, but in
the US we say that the reason

1095
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,240
why we love our dogs so much is
because they don't know how to

1096
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,440
be anything but themselves.
That itself is very true as

1097
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,800
well, and to me they're the most
perfect example of what

1098
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,760
unconditional love is.
They totally.

1099
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,160
You could not feed them, leave
them, kick them, whatever.

1100
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:02,680
And they're still happy to see
you.

1101
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:04,600
Yeah.
Not that I would ever kick my

1102
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:05,680
dogs.
I hasten to hat.

1103
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:08,320
Yeah.
And if somebody ever comes to

1104
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,400
try and take them off me,
that'll be the day I'll die.

1105
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,640
There'll be a fight over that.
I believe it, yeah.

1106
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,160
It's a it's a wonderful thing to
have them.

1107
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:20,600
And it's also, you know, I have
three adult children and we

1108
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,680
always had dogs, and it really
gives them perspective on life.

1109
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:25,920
Right.
Absolutely.

1110
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,160
It gives them something to take
care of because the dog needs

1111
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:29,800
you or the dog's going to start
without you.

1112
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:34,160
But I, I don't think it's by
mistake that the medical

1113
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:38,720
profession is now issuing sort
of therapy dogs and, you know,

1114
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,120
they're allowing dogs into
hospitals because they've

1115
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:45,560
realized the power the dog has
in rebooting someone's

1116
01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,040
determination to live.
I think there's so much more we

1117
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:51,080
can learn from it and animals in
general, to be honest.

1118
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,040
I mean, I've watched, I've
watched horses and even

1119
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,600
dolphins, you know, with
disabled kids and they're

1120
01:01:56,600 --> 01:02:02,320
amazing, absolutely amazing.
But we, we certainly haven't a

1121
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,920
title mankind.
We may be a man, but kind we

1122
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,160
most certainly are not 90% of
the time.

1123
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:14,040
Well, you know, the, the, the
Buddhists and you've experienced

1124
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,400
the people in India and I just
call them the Buddhist because I

1125
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,440
don't know what else to call
them.

1126
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,560
But they seem to get the loving
kindness pretty locked up.

1127
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:27,240
Like they figured it out right?
Like the every I've never seen

1128
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,360
so many stray dogs in one
country in my life.

1129
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:33,600
But every single one of those
dogs is well fed, not scared of

1130
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:36,720
anybody because nobody kicks
them, nobody tells them to move.

1131
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:38,920
You can walk around shopping
precincts and the dogs are just

1132
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:40,560
asleep on the pavement
everywhere.

1133
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:43,200
Yeah, they're fantastic.
And they have a day of the dog

1134
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:44,720
thing where they just celebrate
dogs.

1135
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,320
Totally makes sense.
Well, Mark, this has been

1136
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,720
amazing and I really appreciate
you having the courage to share

1137
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:55,320
this with us.
And it was a fascinating story.

1138
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:57,760
Thank you, thank you, Thank you.
Let me do it.

1139
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:00,360
Yeah, you're, you're very
welcome.

1140
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,280
And I and I'm certain of this,
there will be people who hear

1141
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:08,240
this in our community and
audience that will appreciate

1142
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:13,160
and at very least appreciate.
But you may hear from them not

1143
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,880
only to thank you, but give you
some help.

1144
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,880
Yeah, I am more than happy for
you to give my contact details

1145
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,480
to anybody that wants help.
You know, if they did want to

1146
01:03:22,480 --> 01:03:24,880
read the book, it's it's on
Amazon so you can find it on.

1147
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,920
Amazon I just hit the send
button it I think I'll have it

1148
01:03:27,920 --> 01:03:30,040
in 2 days.
I'm going to send you one.

1149
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:32,560
No, no, no, no, no.
I appreciate you saying that.

1150
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:35,080
I just when we first spoke, I
said I was going to do it.

1151
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:38,160
I put it in my my shopping cart
and I didn't hit send till

1152
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:39,280
today.
So it's.

1153
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,400
OK, yeah, it could be terrible.
You never know.

1154
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,080
As long as I can keep helping
people, and for me, I'm

1155
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,200
massively, my life will be very
successful.

1156
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:51,720
If I can, I can get people to
call it an injury and not a

1157
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:54,520
discipline, yeah.
Then then people will come

1158
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:56,080
forward.
Yeah.

1159
01:03:56,920 --> 01:03:58,480
Super appreciate.
It thank you, Arthur.

1160
01:03:58,480 --> 01:03:59,480
Thank you again for letting me
on.

1161
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,800
I really appreciate the time.
Very, very welcome.

1162
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,320
Thank you for thank you, Sir.
We'll let Meganna know too.

1163
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:05,920
Thank you.
Great.

1164
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:07,760
OK.
Thank you, Mark.