Navigating the Digital Advertising Landscape with Abe Kasbo. Arthur's Round Table Podcast

1
00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:05,200
Hello, everybody.
Thanks for joining us for

2
00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,120
another episode of Arthur's
Round Table.

3
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,840
We're super happy to be here
with you and also happy to have

4
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,640
Abe with us today.
We have an interesting

5
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,400
conversation that we'll have and
hope that you enjoy it as well

6
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,280
and share it with others.
So Abe, thanks for doing this

7
00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,400
and making some time.
We're super glad to have you, as

8
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,320
I said, and if you wouldn't mind
just starting with your journey

9
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,120
and tell us how this all came
about, that would be awesome.

10
00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:32,200
And you're right there.
Thank you for having me.

11
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,680
I appreciate it.
So, you know, I guess I'll start

12
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,200
from the beginning.
You know, my, my, my parents and

13
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,440
I immigrated here from Syria in
1980 and, and we moved right to

14
00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:50,080
Paterson, NJ from there, you
know, public school, then

15
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:56,160
private high school and then on
to Seton Hall University right

16
00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,400
after that.
I got my master's there as well

17
00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,360
in public administration.
But then I went to work on Wall

18
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:08,440
Street and, and then from there
down to Lucent Technologies with

19
00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,120
and Carly Fiorina's
organization, very low in that

20
00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,960
organization, but learned a lot
then from there.

21
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,320
And that was a, a marketing
position I found I, I really

22
00:01:23,320 --> 00:01:26,400
kind of found that, you know,
marketing is teaching and

23
00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,800
marketing is convincing and
marketing is influencing.

24
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:39,160
So, so I took a liking to that
early on and I built a career

25
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:47,920
and a company around the idea of
being a a consultant as well as

26
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:53,120
a marketing firm to Fortune 500
companies, Middlemac market

27
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:59,000
companies and and startups.
So that that's been the journey.

28
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,040
I started there Sony in 2005.
The kids or 2000?

29
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,000
Yeah, 2004, 2005, the kids were
like four or five months old

30
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:13,920
with twins and left a very nice
paying job to for no clients and

31
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,200
a hope and a journey.
Here we are, literally 20 years

32
00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,720
later.
And so you're an independent

33
00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,040
firm which got your sea legs at
big companies doing the

34
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,720
marketing job with them,
correct?

35
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,880
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I tell my kids that

36
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,080
that that's the Goldman Sachs
trade, right?

37
00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,760
You know, don't jump into
entrepreneurship if you itch you

38
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,240
to do it.
But not that this is about my

39
00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,400
opinion, but yeah, it's go get
your sea legs and build your

40
00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,800
Rolodex on somebody else's brand
and then with a plan to bounce

41
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,640
out and do it yourself, right?
That that's right, that's right.

42
00:02:49,640 --> 00:02:52,000
And you know, you, you talked
about entrepreneurship and

43
00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,120
we're, you know, we're, we're
not a big firm, you know, we're,

44
00:02:55,320 --> 00:03:00,680
we're actually small, but we
have done some, some very

45
00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,400
interesting things.
You know, I, I would argue that

46
00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,920
we, we launched the first
healthcare YouTube channel ever

47
00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:11,160
like when YouTube was three
months old, right?

48
00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,880
You know, we, we've done some
interesting things like the

49
00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,560
first maybe the first maybe.
And I say that maybe because you

50
00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:19,120
just.
Don't.

51
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,120
Who knows, right?
Yeah.

52
00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,560
Yeah, with the web, it's it's
unbelievable as you know, you

53
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,800
know, we launched the first B2B
healthcare healthcare store on

54
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,080
Amazon for a global
conglomerate.

55
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:38,400
So, you know, ideas don't come
with size.

56
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,000
Ideas can happen with and by
anybody and, and, and we take

57
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:48,400
those on and I tell our team all
the time I said, you know, we're

58
00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:53,440
in the business sometimes of
generating bad ideas because you

59
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,440
can't expect to, you know, as
human beings and not AI, right,

60
00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,440
right.
HI, you can't expect to generate

61
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:07,000
good ideas all the time, but the
practice of generating ideas get

62
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:08,160
you there, right?
It's.

63
00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,280
Totally.
I used to coach college

64
00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,440
basketball and I would liken it
to practicing free throws,

65
00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:16,399
right?
You, you, you got to keep

66
00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,560
shooting the free throws.
And you're going to miss them

67
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,040
and you're.
Going to miss them and that's

68
00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,440
OK.
But as long as you're proactive

69
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:24,640
and as long as you're honest and
as long as there's integrity

70
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,840
behind that and as long as
there's a rationale behind it,

71
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,800
right, there's a there's an
opportunity to move forward,

72
00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,640
right?
And I also tell my team that

73
00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:40,120
that we inevitably are going to
be wrong, right at any given

74
00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,800
moment, we're going to be wrong
about something.

75
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,120
But what we want to do is set
ourselves up to be directionally

76
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,200
right, because, you know, it can
go like this.

77
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,400
And we have to ride that out.
But if we are, if we've got the

78
00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,280
North Star going this way, then
we'll get there.

79
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,440
And, and that's our approach
with, with clients, right?

80
00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,680
Because certainly in marketing
there's a lot of waste.

81
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:08,360
Arthur as you can imagine in the
digital space, it it is a the

82
00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:13,800
hype is palpable and everyone is
a marketing genius.

83
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:20,520
Of course, isn't it interesting?
I've I've the what you just

84
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,200
said, I call as in life,
business is a series of

85
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,200
adjustments, right?
Try something, you adjust, you

86
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:34,360
try something you adjust, right?
But isn't it interesting that on

87
00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:42,120
some level, it's perplexing what
human nature tends to grasp?

88
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,520
You know, it, it's just like,
what causes something to go

89
00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,360
viral, right?
Why would anybody follow the

90
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,800
Kardashians, right?
That seems like a, a, a, a, a

91
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,960
deep dark hole.
But you know.

92
00:05:57,840 --> 00:05:59,280
You know, it's interesting you
brought that up.

93
00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:00,800
Can I, can I just.
Yeah, sure.

94
00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,440
Just a. 2nd So I actually talk
about this in my book.

95
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,760
So the book's been out for about
9 weeks.

96
00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:11,360
It's called irresponsibly
digital and sorry for the for

97
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,760
the pitch, but irresponsibly.
No, don't apologize.

98
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:14,840
You're welcome to.
Yeah, yeah.

99
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:16,960
You can get it.
You can get it anywhere.

100
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:18,800
Amazon, Barnes and Noble, that
sort of thing.

101
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,760
And you know, the whole
Kardashian thing on social is

102
00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,760
interesting because we have
those conversations internally

103
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:29,320
and with clients and with
everybody.

104
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:33,080
And I'll say, look, the
Kardashian thing on digital

105
00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,320
didn't happen on digital.
They were on TV for 20 years,

106
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,120
right?
I mean, you, you can, you can

107
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,880
look at any of these for now.
Yes, there's, you know, Mr.

108
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:47,200
Beast and you know, some of
these guys that have just, you

109
00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,440
know, taken on to digital.
But if you look at who is really

110
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,200
popular on digital, including
the guy in the White House.

111
00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,480
Yeah.
The guy was on TV for 14 years.

112
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:04,440
I know, right?
So, so fame has a lot to do with

113
00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:05,920
this.
Yeah.

114
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:12,200
You know, Fenty with Rihanna.
I mean, you know, Fenty is a a

115
00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,200
global brand.
It's a billion dollar company,

116
00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,920
you know, makeup, whatever, you
know, whatever they do.

117
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,880
But Rihanna could have sold
toilet paper and it would have

118
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,640
been a billion dollar company
because she was famous before

119
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,320
all of this stuff or.
So what?

120
00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,480
This isn't intentionally trying
to pitch somebody else's book,

121
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:34,920
but one of the things I read
several years ago helped me

122
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:42,120
understand why silly things like
Kardashian became viral and I'm

123
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,840
just escaping.
Do you remember the name of the

124
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,000
book Contagious?
Why?

125
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,120
Things come to catch on?
Someone just help me with the

126
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:54,440
name of the book.
Anyway it it helped me

127
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:59,440
understand that it in some
level, Not sure this is true,

128
00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,560
but it kind of made sense to me
that it appeals to the fight or

129
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:12,400
flight makeup of the human
design because we tend not to

130
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:17,440
have that fight or flight.
You're running from the tiger in

131
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,240
real life now, and that that
activates some part of that

132
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:27,400
fight or flight mechanism within
the human makeup.

133
00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:34,000
And that gives that viscerally
excites that part of thing

134
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,919
that's innate within us.
And like I said, I don't know if

135
00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,200
that all made sense, but it made
a little bit of sense of me at

136
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,919
the for the time, 'cause it's
inexplicable, right?

137
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,400
Why somebody would spend any
amount of their time paying

138
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,080
attention to that nonsense,
right?

139
00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,240
Well, I, you know, I, I don't
know, I First off, I have to get

140
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,880
that book.
I mean, I'm very interested in

141
00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,160
this stuff because you know,
what I talk about is marketing

142
00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,360
as behavioral, right?
So if it if there wasn't a

143
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,040
social platform, it would be
something else.

144
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560
Right.
But it's it's sort of

145
00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:10,280
interesting that you see that
because, like, why did people

146
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:15,600
buy Pet Rock?
Right, Good marketing is #1

147
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:16,800
right?
Right.

148
00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,560
Right.
But but it if if the Kardashian

149
00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,840
thing, right?
If, if we're starting from a

150
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,120
position where that's
irrational.

151
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,480
We as a nation, Pat Rock.
Right.

152
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,280
Look at that.
The extreme right?

153
00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:35,520
Right.
Totally.

154
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,360
And what is that about?
I think that's novelty, right?

155
00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:40,680
I don't.
I think that it's.

156
00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,680
A story.
Yeah, it's a story.

157
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:46,640
Well, let's face it, everything
people buy stories, they don't

158
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,520
buy stuff.
Right?

159
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:49,160
Right.
Exactly.

160
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:52,880
So, so, so yeah, I think you're
right.

161
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,360
I think, you know, when, when
some of my friends, you know,

162
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,480
will talk about the rational
market, you know, I, I'll have

163
00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,440
to agree with Charlie Munger.
I, you know, I mean, I think he

164
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,680
knows and so, so does Mr.
Buffett and that, you know,

165
00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,040
there is really no such thing.
And you're dealing with human

166
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,080
beings and human emotions and
human rationale.

167
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,120
You know what?
Why do people continue to spend,

168
00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,960
you know, 1900 dollars or
whatever it is for the iPhone

169
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,800
And, and just think about what
the NFL is doing, right?

170
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,720
Like tickets are already through
the roof, but now you have to

171
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,960
pay, you know, $25,000 for the
right to buy those tickets.

172
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,160
It's.
Is that a rational thing?

173
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:37,720
No, no, it's not.
And I mean, I, I love football.

174
00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,680
Like we really enjoy watching it
and there's all kinds of reasons

175
00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:44,760
why maybe I would consider, not
because of this stupid shit that

176
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:53,880
they're doing, but it is
encouraging to me.

177
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,440
And thanks for letting me
editorialize a little bit.

178
00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,680
Oh.
Please I this is great.

179
00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,200
When you look at college
football and you see the

180
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:09,640
stadiums filled up and you see
those kids committed, wow, I

181
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,120
love America.
Like that gives me hope for

182
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,880
America, right?
Not it doesn't even have

183
00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,440
anything to do with football.
Let's do with community, right?

184
00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:18,240
Community.
Community, absolutely.

185
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,760
Yeah.
And and and and, you know, the

186
00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:25,720
the college scene is about
community and it is about, you

187
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:30,120
know, it is about also
tribalism, right?

188
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,840
We we tend to be tribal.
And you know, I'm a Seton Hall

189
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,480
guy, so I, you know, right now
I'm having a hard time trying to

190
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,960
justify the Villanova has the
boat come on guys, right.

191
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:52,560
So go pirates.
But yeah, absolutely we are, you

192
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:57,280
know, as far as you know, I, I
could gather we're, we're not

193
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,280
irrational, we're not rational
beings.

194
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,160
So we're more irrational.
So how do you explain in your

195
00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:11,520
book, for example, that
viewpoint, if you're trying to

196
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:17,160
market something to somebody and
you're, you go down the road, as

197
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,240
you suggested, make some
mistakes to get to it, an end

198
00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,600
point that makes sense.
How much of the rational

199
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,720
expectation do you discount I,
I?

200
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,640
Juan, I will tell you, I don't
know, but but here's here's what

201
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,520
I do know.
There needs to be a certain

202
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,960
level of emotion in all of this,
right?

203
00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,880
When you're, you know, people
don't sell beer.

204
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,120
I mean, just think about, think
about, think about Range Rover,

205
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,360
OK, right.
I mean their TV commercials, you

206
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,440
know, they're going up to 999
stairs, you know, they're

207
00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,960
jumping off of that.
They're going into the ocean.

208
00:13:00,680 --> 00:13:04,120
But I what I see is, you know,
people going to the supermarket

209
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,160
with Range Rovers, right?
Well, not only that they're they

210
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:14,040
break all the time.
People buy them, Yeah.

211
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,400
And so, you know, the rational
thing would be like, hey, the

212
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,560
Range Rover will get you to the
supermarket.

213
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,600
It will, you know, it will do
this.

214
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:23,920
It's a features and benefits
kind of thing, right?

215
00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,120
But none of this game is from
from Range Rover all the way

216
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:32,400
down to buying tires, right?
You know, the, the tire

217
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,800
situations like, you know,
they'll scare you to death,

218
00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:37,080
like, you know, you know,
they'll, they'll, they'll show

219
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,880
the car going off the road or
something like that.

220
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,760
And so there needs to be a bit
of emotion in this.

221
00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,640
But I will say that that
frankly, it literally depends on

222
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:55,160
the product, service and idea.
That much that in with Range

223
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,920
Rover by the way, don't you?
It's really simple to me.

224
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,000
It's status.
That's that's the emotion that

225
00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,960
compels people to do it right.
It's it's status, it, you know,

226
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,160
Rolex, same thing.
Yeah, same thing.

227
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:10,680
Right.
You know any of those, you know,

228
00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:15,200
luxury brands, if you if you're
buying a refrigerator, it's a

229
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,880
different argument, right.
But if you're talking about some

230
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,520
of the top line stuff, well,
where do you find that top line

231
00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:23,560
stuff?
Well, you find it in certain

232
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,600
outlets and in certain media
that's not accessible to a

233
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,280
particular, you know, class and,
and so you have to be where your

234
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,640
market is.
I don't think I'm saying

235
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,640
anything, you know, world
beating here.

236
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,160
But ultimately it's also about
consistency.

237
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:47,560
What what I think the, the
medium, the mid market and even

238
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,520
some, you know, some of the
large companies because we've

239
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,640
we, we kind of live in a world
of short termism, right.

240
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,360
Especially in the public markets
where it's quarter to quarter

241
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,320
or, and even if it's not, you
know, we're going with these

242
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:05,080
eight KP is that may or may not
mean anything but that we need

243
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,360
to hit those numbers.
Well, OK.

244
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,960
You know, on the digital side,
there is so much fraud in that

245
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:15,640
business.
And I, you know, I'd love to

246
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:21,040
talk to you about that, that,
that those KP is, may be meaning

247
00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,840
meaningless.
And a large part they are.

248
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,640
Yeah, I'll give you an example.
And, and this is in the book,

249
00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,360
but it's also, you know, I think
you're, you know, your viewers,

250
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,080
your listeners can, can check my
mouth.

251
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,480
They can Google everything I'm
saying.

252
00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:42,960
Or, but maybe like 3-4 years
ago, the CMO of Uber, right?

253
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:44,440
Like Uber doesn't have stores,
right?

254
00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,880
Uber is an app.
And so you would think that Uber

255
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,320
is hiring the Creme de la Creme
of marketers and people.

256
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,960
And, and they have fine people.
They, I'm, I'm sure they're

257
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:59,440
great and they don't need me to
tell them they're great.

258
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,560
But the CMO went to the board
and said, I have $150 million

259
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,200
budget.
I lost 100 million of it on

260
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:12,680
digital ads, right?
So the question is, you know,

261
00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,440
how, how did that happen?
And he couldn't really give

262
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,880
anybody a straight answer.
And I don't think it was his

263
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,880
fault, right?
Because because we are almost

264
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:31,960
being gaslit into handing over
money to, you know, Google,

265
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,920
Facebook and those guys.
And there's a black box around

266
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,120
it.
And there are people much

267
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,720
smarter than I, I mean, you
know, I, I don't even scratch

268
00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,480
the service.
There are people like Augustine

269
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,120
Fu who who do some great, he's
an, I think he's an MIT guy who

270
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,360
do some great research in the
field about ad fraud and stuff

271
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,720
like that.
But but it is incredible that

272
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,680
that we kind of live in this
world where we say we want to

273
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,280
manage by data, but we don't
understand the data and then we

274
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,760
don't know what to do about it.
Is that, is that in a more a

275
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,920
little bit of a pedestrian way
of explaining that is when you

276
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,400
do an ad spend, because there's
no way to close the loop and

277
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,560
your sales go up incrementally
and you discount anything else

278
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,560
that you might be doing at the
same time that you can

279
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,440
credential that ad spend based
on your sales going up a little

280
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:30,760
bit.
Like you can't tie it in

281
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,840
exactly.
Well, the, the, the promise of

282
00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,160
digital and social is that you
can and, and in many ways you

283
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,600
can, right?
But because there are so many

284
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:48,240
tolls along the way in, in a
digital media buy, like in a

285
00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:53,640
traditional media buy, you know,
let's say TVI want to buy a

286
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,160
program on CNN or I want to buy
a program on The History

287
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,640
Channel.
And, and, and you can do that

288
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,120
through cable or you could do
that through, you know, you

289
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:04,800
know, your ABC or some,
somebody.

290
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:10,560
Terrestrial TV, Yeah, right.
Exactly, exactly, But with with

291
00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:14,680
the promise of digital was Hey,
I have a demographic, you know,

292
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,000
there's, you know, look alike
audiences.

293
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:20,000
There's a psychographic I'd go
in boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

294
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,320
Well, you know that that's
great.

295
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:29,400
But on the other side of these
things are thieves who set up

296
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,160
fake websites with the same
right, with the same

297
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:38,880
demographics and Google place
ads, right, They're placing ads

298
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,520
and those guys are getting the
money.

299
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,160
People aren't seeing your ads.
So I'm not the smartest guy in

300
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,280
the book to, to even explain it.
I just, I know the problem

301
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,720
exists.
I know it's pervasive because,

302
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,680
you know, we go through some of
these things and, and I know

303
00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,640
that people have been taken to
the, to the cleaners, which is

304
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:05,080
why we recommend caution on, on,
on this stuff.

305
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,480
I'm not saying we don't do it.
You have to do it, but I think

306
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,120
you have to do it with eyes wide
open.

307
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:17,040
Is there, it's interesting the
nuance that you just mentioned

308
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:22,480
that Google knows that there's
bots on the other end, but there

309
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,320
there's no incentive for them to
police that it seems right.

310
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:33,600
Correct.
Facebook says it and this is

311
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:38,680
according to Statista.
They say that they purge a

312
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,080
billion fake accounts 1/4.
I believe that there's probably

313
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,920
a billion more there, right?
That probably right.

314
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,480
So I mean, if, if they're doing
that and there's a billion more

315
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,000
there and, and like, you know,
OK, so maybe the ads are being

316
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,200
seen and I'm I'm sure they are
because, you know, Facebook has

317
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,280
driven a lot of business and
made a lot of people very

318
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,160
famous.
But what we don't know is where

319
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,000
the waste is because it's just
not there.

320
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,200
So I don't know how much money
is going to waste.

321
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,840
On those platforms, right?
The other thing is I had to stop

322
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:14,520
the presses to put this in the
book.

323
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:21,400
So the book was supposed to come
out like in July and we were in

324
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,480
the works.
And then I saw an interview with

325
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:30,040
Mark Zuckerberg and Mark said he
said something like, you know,

326
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,000
we just did some research and we
found out the people generally

327
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:40,520
have about 3 friends and they're
in the market for 15 friends.

328
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,800
So we're going to create 15 AI,
you know, additional friends for

329
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,760
them.
What right digital friends?

330
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,400
Right, OK, so I mean, look,
there's you know, there's

331
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,720
digital porn, there's all kinds
of stuff going on.

332
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,840
But but if you're going to do
that, then what?

333
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,520
What am I going to like as a, as
a quote UN quote CMO right or an

334
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:11,760
advisor to CEOCFOS or you know,
whoever you want me to spend my

335
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,120
clients money, you want me to
advise them to continue to spend

336
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:19,240
money on your platform.
So. 3/4 of the people I'm

337
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,040
reaching are are fictitious
friends.

338
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,320
Yeah.
Are AI OK now?

339
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,920
You know, I, I, I know you know,
that might have just been thrown

340
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,440
out.
But what tends to happen in this

341
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,000
field is, and I call them the
clichocracy.

342
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,440
These people are clichocrats.
Yeah, OK.

343
00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,000
And they will go up on stage and
they'll promote this stuff

344
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,320
because by promoting this stuff,
it's, you know, they seem cool

345
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,040
and, you know, you got the guy,
you know, yelling at you from

346
00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,480
the back of the cab and you know
about all this hustle porn

347
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,920
stuff.
I just think we need to stop all

348
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,360
that garbage and give just take
a step back and have a much more

349
00:21:56,360 --> 00:22:00,560
realistic look at where we're
investing our marketing dollars,

350
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,480
why we're doing it, how we're
doing it and the expected

351
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:11,120
outcome.
You think that's realistic

352
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,280
meaning can you, can you get
there right?

353
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,560
I have to tell you, I've been
fighting that battle.

354
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,200
It's it's almost like like
riding a bike going down the

355
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,040
hill and spitting in the wind.
Yeah.

356
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,160
I've been that fighting that
battle for a long time.

357
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:29,680
I lose a lot, but for, for the
clients that choose to go on the

358
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:36,200
ride with us, it is not a
meteoric spike.

359
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,760
It is steady growth.
And, and, and that's, you know,

360
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:47,640
I and we built relationships
over the years because I think

361
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,520
I'm, I'm not saying we don't, we
make mistakes all the time, but

362
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,240
I think that because we're so
transparent about this, I think

363
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,120
people tend to trust us.
And of course, you have to

364
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,480
deliver.
Right.

365
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,160
Right, so there's like no
bullshit when it comes to this

366
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,760
stuff.
Like, you know, we'll, we'll

367
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:09,680
look at data and we, we did a
discovery for a, a firm in, in

368
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,760
New England.
Their marketing budget was $6

369
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,120
million.
It was, it was an audit, more of

370
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:19,680
an audit, right, $6 million.
We found that we can get our

371
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,760
hands on because the digital
marketing company would not give

372
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,320
us the keys.
Oh, it's proprietary

373
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,200
information.
We have other clients on, on

374
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,640
which is kind of BS.
Like, I know it's BS, but people

375
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,560
do that.
Well, $6 million, we, we, we

376
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,960
found like $1.2 million in AD
fraud and we don't know.

377
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,200
And because we didn't have
access to all the keys, the

378
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,960
doors, we don't know whether it
was say, the digital agency,

379
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:56,120
Google, a combination thereof.
But I mean 1.2 million in

380
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,680
digital fraud is nuts.
That's a lot of money.

381
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,680
For for for $6 million, yeah.
Spending, what do you think?

382
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,640
So people got burnt drawn in
some sort of a corollary here.

383
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:16,960
But see, people got so burnt
from people who would develop

384
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:22,320
developers that would keep the
source code and not do the job

385
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,640
and then not give it to you
because you didn't pay them

386
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,880
because they didn't do the job,
right.

387
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,120
And so that happened, you know,
like forever and ever and

388
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:37,560
continues to I imagine is the
are the ad agencies especially

389
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:46,320
like in $6 million of big spend,
right small are are are they

390
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:50,200
conspiring against the customers
and all agreeing not to release

391
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,560
the data for reasons that kind
of make sense but aren't real

392
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,200
like you suggest we're it's
other clients information,

393
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,640
etcetera, etcetera.
Can't you hold the gun to your

394
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,320
head and say, look, we'll we'll
engage you, but we need the data

395
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,640
is that they acquiescing?
So, so I, I, I, I don't know, I,

396
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,080
I mean, there's plenty of
honorable folks, I mean plenty

397
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,320
of honorable folks in the field
who, who I think are working in

398
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:19,920
the best interest of their
clients.

399
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,000
But I do think there are
opportunities because you know,

400
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,080
like, you know, you take, I'm
not a mechanic.

401
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,120
I take my card and my mechanic.
And, and if, if, if I, if I

402
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:34,160
don't know and, and that
mechanic is not, you know, wants

403
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,680
revenue, then stuff's going to
come up.

404
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,000
I think it's human nature.
And I think it's case by case.

405
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,560
I don't think that this is a
rampant thing, but I do think

406
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:55,560
that the, that the fraud sort of
landscape in digital is rampant

407
00:25:55,600 --> 00:26:00,120
because of the bots, because of
the fake accounts, because of

408
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:03,880
the fake websites.
There are numbers out there like

409
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:11,200
right now on the organic side,
website traffic could be as fake

410
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,120
as, as, or as high as 60% fake,
right?

411
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,680
And, and, and despite what
everybody thinks, it, it's not

412
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,760
coming from Russia or China.
It's actually coming from the

413
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,920
United States.
And this is according to, you

414
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,640
know, a bunch of data that
anybody can Google, right?

415
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,160
So whether you know whether it
comes from China, Russia,

416
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,600
Ukraine, wherever it comes from,
it's still fake.

417
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:35,640
Yeah.
Right.

418
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,320
So we have to, we have to take
those those things with a grain

419
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,720
of salt is what I'm saying,
because the amount of dollars,

420
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:51,760
time and effort and energy sort
of chasing this stuff is

421
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,360
staggering.
Yeah.

422
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,520
So you sort of have to live with
it, right?

423
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,560
Well, I think, I think you have
to live with it.

424
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,000
But, but I do think that you
have to, you have to try to

425
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,720
figure it out.
In 2017, Procter and Gamble,

426
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:19,680
which at one time or another was
the world's largest marketer,

427
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,800
cut back on whatever the, I
forget the percentage right now,

428
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,800
but it was a significant
percentage.

429
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:34,520
They cut back and they saw no,
no adverse impact whatsoever on

430
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,760
their business.
And, and in fact, certain areas

431
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:43,880
of the business grew, right.
You know, I just read somewhere,

432
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,080
I don't know, maybe like 2-3
months ago Bose decided to to

433
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:50,800
cut back as well because they're
like, well if people are

434
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,440
searching for Bose, why should
we pay Google for our own name?

435
00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:57,800
Yeah.
But because of brand power.

436
00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,840
Brand power, yeah.
Yeah.

437
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,200
So, so the, you know, we have to
think about different

438
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,200
strategies.
How do we build build a brand?

439
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,520
How do we build a brand offline,
online, you know, where at what

440
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,760
point does it come together?
And these things aren't, you

441
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,720
know, everybody wants the easy
button and everybody wants the

442
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,800
the person who is the most
eloquent with the deepest voice

443
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,280
because that's the person they
believe.

444
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,040
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

445
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,080
Yeah, right.
So I, I don't live in that

446
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,680
world.
I live in in the world of sort

447
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,120
of ambiguity about this stuff.
Yeah.

448
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:36,640
But that's that's reality to me.
So what's what?

449
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,160
And this may not be a fair
question, but what's a good

450
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,320
customer for you?
Like if you could profile a good

451
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,880
customer, what does that look
like?

452
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:57,800
I, I would say, yeah, I, I, I
would say a good customer is

453
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:05,000
somebody that wants to, that
wants to build the business and

454
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,720
doesn't have unrealistic
expectations from marketing,

455
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:19,200
because marketing sort of like
CM OS are, you know, like, I

456
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,800
think they get fired in less
than two years.

457
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,720
Agencies are let go very, very
quickly.

458
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,480
If there's if they don't perform
well, if the life cycle of the

459
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,040
business isn't right, if you
just started your business,

460
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,120
well, you have to invest.
If you don't have money, you're

461
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,240
expectations of to meet that.
If you're, you know, if you're,

462
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,240
you know, a, you know, if you're
a large company and you've got a

463
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,080
specific business line that
you're going to that's mature,

464
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,200
your marketing spends going to
be X, it's not going to be Y.

465
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,680
And if you are selling the
business and the brand is less

466
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,720
than well, in order to get that
17 to 20% more, you need to pump

467
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,000
up that brand.
Well, then how do you do that?

468
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,680
So our customer is an educated
customer and somebody who's

469
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,200
willing to have a reasonable
sort of expectation about

470
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,600
marketing because right now we
just don't live in that world.

471
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,880
Yeah.
So is it a Fortune 500 company?

472
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,840
Is it a company like?
Yeah, I mean, we, we work with

473
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,000
Fortune 500 companies we work
with, we work with middle market

474
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,360
companies we work with.
You know, I chair, I'm the

475
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,320
former chair of Seton Hall
University's again.

476
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,720
Go Pirates, Seton Hall
University's Center for

477
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:51,040
Innovation and Entrepreneurship.
So we see a lot of startups, not

478
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800
that they become clients, that
would be unethical, but I do

479
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,240
work with a bunch of those
folks.

480
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:02,360
So yeah, Fortune 500 companies
that need that need a little,

481
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,680
you know, punch in the arm
because we're very agile.

482
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,800
We move very, very quickly and
and also too, who need that sort

483
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,240
of, you know, that person to
say, hold on a second that

484
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:21,600
Provocateur because they are
being pushed to do certain

485
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,800
things.
And we could bring in data, we

486
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,800
could bring in business cases
and use cases and say, let's put

487
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,120
it on the table and let's look
at all this stuff.

488
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,160
You might not have access to it,
and then let's make a decision.

489
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,400
Yeah.
Can we talk about your client

490
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,880
that we mentioned before we hit
the record button and what

491
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,880
you're doing for them?
Remind me?

492
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Right, right in your state.
Right, right in my state.

493
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:55,120
Oh my gosh.
I'm, I, I'm.

494
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,080
Losing with longevity.
Oh, got it, got it.

495
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,120
Yeah.
Well, we have a, a longevity

496
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,720
center that we work with and,
and they are the dominant brand

497
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:15,200
in this area and they've grown,
you know, they're, they're,

498
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,120
they're, they're in Virginia,
they're also in Connecticut.

499
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:24,440
And their target market is
actually your target market and

500
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:31,080
your audience, family offices,
high net worth individuals.

501
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,400
And they've built the business
also sort of being outside the

502
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,800
mainstream of modern medicine
at, you know, 20 years ago.

503
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,960
Yeah, they've been around a long
time, yeah.

504
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,160
Yeah, they've been around more
than 20 years ago and, and, you

505
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,600
know, so, you know, Doctor Fine
has been, you know, a leader in

506
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,680
the field.
You know, when he started, he,

507
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,880
you know, traditional medicine
was tough on him, but he stayed

508
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,640
with it.
And if you look around now,

509
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,000
longevity is, you know,
everybody's talking.

510
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,560
About it, everybody's.
It's in vogue.

511
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,880
We got billionaires, you know,
claiming they never have to die.

512
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:11,880
But you know, that's a sound
bite.

513
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,360
Right, exactly, exactly.
But I will, I wanted to give you

514
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,320
an example of a another client
that we work with, sure, out of

515
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,760
Michigan.
And when we met them about five

516
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,560
years ago, they came to us for
social, right.

517
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,920
They're like, oh, you know, we
need social and yes, of course

518
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,640
we need social, right?
But we looked at the total

519
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,600
business.
We recognized they needed to go

520
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,680
through digital transformation
first because like, even if you

521
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,640
do social, they got to come
back, you know, you got to send

522
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,600
them back to your website
because remember, you don't own

523
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:50,360
anything on social.
Facebook tomorrow could go and

524
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,440
then what happens?
Right.

525
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,720
Yeah.
So the only, the only.

526
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,480
I'm sorry, explain digital
transformation before you.

527
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,120
Maybe that's what you're about
to do.

528
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,600
But yeah.
Yes, I yes, I I'm going to do

529
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,680
that.
But thank you for that prompt.

530
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,960
The only thing that you own on
the web is your website and your

531
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,159
e-mail, right?
Yeah.

532
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,960
I mean, even this Arthur, you
know, Riverside goes away.

533
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,480
You know how how are we going to
do it?

534
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,199
How are we doing?
Yeah, Yeah.

535
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:21,320
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.

536
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,080
Right.
YouTube goes away, you know all

537
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:26,719
that.
So, so it's really, really

538
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:28,600
important that you bring things
to the web.

539
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,960
And they were an offline company
and they couldn't scale fast

540
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,679
enough.
So we said, look, it's going to

541
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,360
take two years, but we're going
to, we're going to do this and

542
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,159
we're going to build an app and
we're going to move basically to

543
00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,600
training business online.
And then we're going to project

544
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,840
the business using webinars.
And what we're going to do is

545
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,960
we're going to partner with
larger clients, right, or larger

546
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,240
partners who have a much larger
audience.

547
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,400
And then we would be able to
work together to capture e-mail.

548
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,480
Believe it or not, e-mail is a,
an outperformer.

549
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,480
I mean, it just outperforms
social because according to

550
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,200
rivals IQ, which is these folks
do God's work.

551
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,320
I think in this space, you know
the average engagement rate on

552
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,040
social, on just organic, what do
you think the number is are

553
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,760
there?
Like as a percentage of time or

554
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,880
the percentage of overall reach
like 2.

555
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,680
Percent if you're on, yeah, if
you're on your, let's say,

556
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,000
Facebook account and you type
in, you know, I'm having a great

557
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,760
conversation with Abe, right.
And you had a 1000 people that

558
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,840
are relevant, by the way, not
bots, Yeah.

559
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,400
What do you think the engagement
rate on that is?

560
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,880
Less than 10%.
OK, it's .03.

561
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,120
Yeah, All right.
It's like, what are we doing

562
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,000
that's less than 1/2 a person.
Yeah, right.

563
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:03,320
Which is why we counseled him to
other channels, but we didn't

564
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,400
discount it.
We do have a presence.

565
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,920
We just don't go crazy there.
We're focused on webinars.

566
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:13,800
So in five years, we went from
having like 3000 emails to

567
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,280
literally like almost 150,000
customer emails that we sell to

568
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,760
Yeah, right.
And now these folks have a place

569
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,320
to come back, they have a place
to buy stuff and they have a

570
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,440
place to train, right?
It wasn't simple, it wasn't

571
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,880
easy.
We made mistakes along the way.

572
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:39,160
But it, you know, the CEO of the
company was so gracious to allow

573
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,480
us to, to do this.
And, and, and all of our clients

574
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,000
are gracious to allow us to do
it, to do the, the, the, the

575
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,880
work that we do, including the
Fortune 500 companies.

576
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,080
Yeah, the iterations make sense,
doesn't.

577
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,000
I mean, you have to just keep on
trying.

578
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Exactly.
And and what tends to happen is

579
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:04,560
people will say, we tried this
and I'll say, well, one, how did

580
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,800
you try it?
Like the how is important

581
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,440
because the creative piece is
also important.

582
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,040
Here.
I'll, I'll give you an example

583
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,480
of bad creative.
You know, bad creative

584
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,040
consistently does very well,
right?

585
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:24,080
So it was, it was like a dentist
in Ridgewood, NJ and he would

586
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,280
buy the back of this is like 20
years ago, he would buy the back

587
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,880
of New Jersey monthly.
I mean, this is a simple, but I

588
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,880
think it's illustrative, right?
He would buy the back of New

589
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:36,800
Jersey monthly.
I mean, back then it was like

590
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,600
twelve, $15,000, right.
And now I would look at the ads

591
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,360
and I'm like, you know, he like
his ads to me were like

592
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,840
terrible, you know, like it's
him drawing, right?

593
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,880
Or, you know, smoking a pipe,
right?

594
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:56,480
Or, you know, bourbon by the
fire, whatever, right?

595
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,240
So I saw him one day at a
convention and I said, Hey, you

596
00:38:01,240 --> 00:38:02,800
know, I want to talk to you
about your ads.

597
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,040
Can I, can we talk?
He's like, oh, I know you, you

598
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,480
young guys.
I know what you think.

599
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,560
You, you, you know, he was like
in the 70s at the time, he was

600
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:15,240
like, you think my ads suck?
And I'm like, yeah, they suck.

601
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,880
He goes.
But I know what you think.

602
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,440
I said what?
He goes.

603
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,760
You think they work?
I'm like, yeah, so I'm going to

604
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,760
quote this.
So you know what he said to me?

605
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,480
He goes, he goes all these
fucking young guys, they're in

606
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,600
the magazine.
They're out of the magazine.

607
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,800
Do you know who gets the fucking
new patients?

608
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,200
I do.
I've been there for years.

609
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,960
I'm never leaving that that.
And that's a quote.

610
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:45,240
Yeah, right.
The consistency factor is

611
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,360
crucial.
And.

612
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:50,360
And if you own that Channel, own
it.

613
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,000
Own it.
If you're going to be on the

614
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,640
radio for a long time, own it.
If you're going to be on TV for

615
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,680
a long time, own it, yeah.
That's good advice.

616
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:06,720
That's really interesting.
And what you said, bad ads or

617
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:11,000
bad marketing or whatever, in
this case, the ad consistent

618
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,560
works, even bad ones work.
That's really interesting.

619
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,040
Right.
I mean, I mean, remember the

620
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,560
Crazy Eddie commercials?
Of course, yeah.

621
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:22,760
They weren't bad ads.
They were, they pulled you in.

622
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,320
They got people were looking
forward to seeing that, you

623
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,720
know, the guys throwing TV's at
the screen, right?

624
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:34,560
But they're sort of irrational.
They're not like, you know, but

625
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,600
people look forward to that.
People look forward to, if you

626
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,160
think about like the GEICO
commercials, I think Jared

627
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,240
Jewellers would was advertising
inside the GEICO commercials.

628
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:50,320
Yeah, it's wild.
Now, Can you imagine if now

629
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,840
insurance is pretty stodgy,
right?

630
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,120
Like, you know, I'd like to
imagine what the discussion was

631
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,720
like when somebody went to the
board and said we are now going

632
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,760
to be advertising using a
lizard.

633
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,600
A lizard, right, right.
It's like Mad Men, right?

634
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,120
Coming to the table and saying,
hey, trust us, right, Let's give

635
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:17,520
it a try.
So I happen to understand

636
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,840
because I've owned a company on
a very small scale that had the

637
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,040
insurance company balance sheet
leverage.

638
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:33,440
And it's fascinating to me that
it's not just that GEICO lizard.

639
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,000
The GEICO has persona and a life
of its own.

640
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,560
They keep on doing it because it
it gives people confidence when

641
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,240
they they they're look shopping
for insurance and they just go,

642
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:50,080
OK, It's like a perfunctory OK
guy goes OK, right.

643
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,600
It's it's like the guy Malcolm
Gladwell who wrote the book

644
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,440
about thin slicing, right?
When you reach for a can on the

645
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,360
shelf, it's because you've been
conditioned that Campbell's is

646
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,840
going to be OK.
All progressives good.

647
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:03,160
You don't even think about it,
right?

648
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,280
That's right.
Same idea, right?

649
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,680
That's exactly right.
And and you know, at the end of

650
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,680
the day, the consistency piece
is a propaganda piece, right?

651
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,520
People rely on you because
there's a certain comfort in

652
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,320
seeing that, right?
There's a certain comfort in

653
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,720
seeing something and
experiencing and and but but

654
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:27,640
that requires risk.
I mean, again, you know what Can

655
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,520
you imagine the discussion,
right?

656
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,600
It was whoever the CMO was at
GEICO at the time and the board,

657
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,960
they took a risk and then
progressive said, well, if they

658
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,800
could do it with a lizard, we're
going to do it with a duck or

659
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,280
whatever it was, right?
You know, maybe it's not

660
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,400
progressive, I forget, but it.
Was Aflac, Yeah.

661
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,480
Aflac thank you, yes.
And then the the liberty with

662
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,520
the with the would they help?
Emu.

663
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:53,920
Emu.
Like right?

664
00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:56,080
Then we talk about copycatting,
right?

665
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,040
But, right.
But, you know, I all of these

666
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,160
guys, and there's a lot of
copycatting in this business,

667
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,400
but you know, hey, I'll
subscribe to the Burger King

668
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,120
theory, right.
McDonald's opens up there.

669
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:10,800
They have more money.
They did the research.

670
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:12,480
Yeah, I'm opening up a mile
away.

671
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,200
Like, yeah, why not?
Yeah.

672
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:15,520
Of course.
Yeah, right.

673
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,640
And you know, that's the
entrepreneurship,

674
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,400
entrepreneurship approach.
Do you think back to the ad

675
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,920
spend thing for a second?
Do you think we're stuck with, I

676
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,360
think it was Gimble that
originally said the big

677
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,640
department store guy, He said
50% of my ad spend is wasted.

678
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,880
I just can't tell which 50.
Do you think we're stuck with

679
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,760
that especially?
You, you, you could, you could

680
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,360
tell no, I mean, now, now with
all of the analytics and if

681
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,960
they're set up correctly, at
least you know where a portion

682
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,400
of your money is going in
digital, right?

683
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:59,120
And in fact, you could be
advertising on the Super Bowl

684
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,240
and it's trackable now, right,
because of QR codes, maybe

685
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,000
certain, you know, engagement
mechanisms.

686
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,560
It's, it's definitely a lot
better.

687
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:15,440
But on the other side, you've
got, you know, people like Uber

688
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,040
that we just talked about.
TikTok also was sort of caught

689
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,880
in that situation.
There's a company called

690
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,280
Analytics and they do a report
every year and they basically

691
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,400
will present all of the
companies that have been scammed

692
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:38,240
in the space.
So if you call Analytics, you'll

693
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:42,080
see the reports.
And how legit is that data?

694
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:47,600
Like how do they get that data?
It is hardcore data.

695
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,480
I happen to trust their data.
And the reason why I happen to

696
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,080
trust their data is because when
I follow them, but some of the

697
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:03,120
other sort of counter cultural
guys who I follow also follow

698
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:04,800
them.
And I do read the reports,

699
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,560
they're lengthy, they make sense
to me.

700
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:11,840
The source data makes sense.
The source data seems reliable.

701
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,840
On the other side, we, we go
through, you know, let's say

702
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:20,000
Google Analytics or certain ad
buys, and some of the holes are

703
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:24,680
glaring, like we don't know why
that's there, right?

704
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,800
And Google will not tell us why
that's there.

705
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,920
Yeah, it's interesting to see
Google starting to advertise on

706
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,880
TV, on cable, in the throes of
being usurped by Chat TTP and

707
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,280
perplexity as a search engine.
We just came back from Europe

708
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:47,440
and almost everybody that we
encountered in Greece and Italy,

709
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,000
they don't use Google anymore,
They use Chat TTP.

710
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,880
Right.
Well, I, you know, I, I, I don't

711
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,920
live far from New York City, but
when, you know, when you're

712
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:04,640
taking the tunnel, right, you
know, there may be 3 Amazon

713
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,400
billboards in the tunnel.
Well, Amazon is a digital

714
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,680
company.
They don't really have stores or

715
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,520
you're, you're getting direct
mail probably from digital

716
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:17,600
companies.
Why does that happen?

717
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,440
Well, because those channels
also work right now.

718
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:23,880
Those folks have outsized
budgets.

719
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,120
They have, you know, right,
large teams.

720
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:33,840
But those channels have to align
the channels, the creative, the

721
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,840
messaging and the consistency.
If you could align those, you

722
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:39,760
know, you could do that, You
know?

723
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:41,480
Yeah, you certainly do that for
Amazon.

724
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:42,920
You can also do it for a pizza
shop.

725
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,920
Yeah, right.
And, and everything in between.

726
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:52,680
And, you know, I work with
founders all the time who, who

727
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:58,600
think that there is even today
a, a, a, a gold rush around

728
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,400
digital like that's digital
first.

729
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,920
Well, if you're raising money,
you should get your digital

730
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:11,040
house in, you know, in order,
absolutely, because investors

731
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,400
might want to go and check you
out, right?

732
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,880
Whether it's a company or
LinkedIn, whatever.

733
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:24,120
But you're not going to raise
five $6 million or $100 million

734
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:28,200
without sitting across the table
from somebody.

735
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,560
Totally.
It is not going to happen.

736
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:32,000
It's true.
All right.

737
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,680
It's true.
So unless there was a trust

738
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:41,120
trust bond created prior where
they already did something and

739
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,240
then you can raise money on that
trust bond, that's completely

740
00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,720
different, right?
Absolutely different, but but

741
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:53,680
even if, you know, like if, if
you look at, I mean, Elon Musk

742
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,840
can send an e-mail to whoever
right, to his network and say

743
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,520
I'm doing whatever and, and you
know, and he could do that.

744
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,560
But your average founder or even
your if, if your average

745
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,600
investor is not going to do
that, right?

746
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,960
So, so it's AI talk about this
all the time.

747
00:47:13,240 --> 00:47:18,000
You know, sometimes we as mere
mortals think that we are right.

748
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:21,520
So I'll say to folks, I'm like,
listen, I, you know, I'm a guard

749
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,680
in basketball, right?
I'm 5, seven and a half.

750
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,400
I'm, I'm sure the Internet knows
that already.

751
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,480
OK, but I'm a guard and I was
pretty good at the time.

752
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,720
But like, do you want me to play
for you?

753
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,560
Because Michael Jordan is a
guard.

754
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,960
Yeah, right.
Exactly.

755
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,640
Who do you want playing for you?
Exactly, Yeah.

756
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:44,400
Right.
And we have to get our

757
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,640
expectations right because we
all think we we have Coca-Cola,

758
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,640
we have Coca-Cola Dreams and
sugar water budgets.

759
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,040
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.

760
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:58,320
So LinkedIn, are the stats
available?

761
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,440
And if so, are they the same?
In your Facebook example where

762
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:07,280
there's 1000 people and you get
point O3, is it the same on

763
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:12,360
LinkedIn?
So, so rival IQIII want to say I

764
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:17,880
don't I don't know, because
rival IQ just started to to

765
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,440
count LinkedIn and and I don't
know why I think it might have

766
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:24,880
been back, you know, access to
the back end and and.

767
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:26,240
API or something?
Yeah.

768
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,840
Something like that.
And but LinkedIn doesn't

769
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:35,200
throttle you.
So if you're a business page and

770
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,520
you, you know, if you have a,
you know, whatever family

771
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,400
office, if you've got an, if
you're an investor pizzeria, if

772
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:50,000
you're Microsoft, if you are
doing organic social, it is to

773
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,640
Facebook's benefit to ask you to
boost it.

774
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,360
So they're not going to right.
They want you to work for your

775
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:57,720
money.
They want you to dance for your

776
00:48:57,720 --> 00:48:58,800
lunch.
Yeah, right.

777
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:06,280
Right, Well, if that's the case,
then so on LinkedIn right now,

778
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,640
everybody could see your post
right now, right?

779
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,720
As opposed to Twitter, which is
completely, I mean, you know,

780
00:49:15,720 --> 00:49:19,320
look, I have my own opinions
about Elon, but I, I, I think

781
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,040
that there is a huge chunk of
revenue opportunity that he's

782
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,120
missing because of the way that
he set up his algorithm.

783
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,320
But that's, you know, that's how
I think about it.

784
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:35,640
Yeah, LinkedIn, you go on there,
your network will see your post.

785
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:45,400
Yeah, yeah, I think LinkedIn is
somewhat lame, but it's good

786
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,600
enough that just my opinion,
right?

787
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,480
Yeah.
I mean, people are living on

788
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,800
LinkedIn today.
Totally, Yeah.

789
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:56,320
People live on LinkedIn and,
and, and I, and I also think

790
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:01,920
that like psychologically for
us, you know, when, when you see

791
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:07,600
that stuff, I mean, I, I don't
know, and I'm not a sociologist,

792
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,360
I'm not a physiologist.
I, but I do read, you know,

793
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,240
some, some of the psychosocial
studies that come out about this

794
00:50:15,240 --> 00:50:18,200
stuff.
And our brains are just not

795
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:24,240
developed enough to be able to
to handle all of this input

796
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,720
every day.
Yeah, it's too much.

797
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:31,240
You know, as as humans and I
know there's a bunch of studies

798
00:50:31,240 --> 00:50:35,440
out there by very reputable, you
know, universities and

799
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,840
organizations that basically say
it's impacting our brain and our

800
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,840
behaviour.
I believe that I had somebody

801
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:47,880
criticize me when I said they
said something about a LinkedIn

802
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,080
communication or post or
something on LinkedIn.

803
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,400
And I said, well, I didn't do
that.

804
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:54,760
And they go, what do you mean
you didn't do that?

805
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,080
I said I had somebody else do
it, which is what I have

806
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,320
somebody else do most of it,
right?

807
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,160
And they go, what do you mean
it's your LinkedIn?

808
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:04,640
I go, yeah, but I don't have
time to.

809
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,200
It's kind of like what you're
saying, whatever, I can't take

810
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,320
all that fire hose and still do
all this other stuff that are

811
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,480
priority.
I just have to have somebody

812
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,680
else do most of it right.
Right.

813
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:16,840
But Arthur, that that's an
impact on your brand.

814
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,160
Yeah, totally.
Yeah.

815
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:25,160
You know, and, and companies do
have to be careful and people

816
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:30,040
have to be careful because, you
know, I said this like 2025

817
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,920
years ago.
Your digital reputation is your

818
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,680
reputation today.
Yeah, fairly true.

819
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:41,400
You know.
What Let's talk about What would

820
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:48,440
people expect to get from the
book that you hope would be a

821
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:53,880
good outcome for them?
So I'm hoping the book presents

822
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,800
a lot of data, like some of the
stuff that we talked about

823
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,320
today.
It also presents a lot of cases

824
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,000
like business cases like we
talked about today.

825
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:08,720
But what I would hope for
everybody is that it helps them

826
00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:10,920
ask the right questions of their
agencies.

827
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:15,080
It helps them ask the right
questions or better questions

828
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,520
rather right, because we're you
know, I tell people like I, I'm

829
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,240
not interested in being right.
I'm interested in getting it

830
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:25,680
right and getting there
sometimes just takes longer,

831
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,760
right?
So, so if, if I could help

832
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,680
people ask better questions,
then they are going to question

833
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,840
that spent.
And it may be viable, it may be

834
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,320
the right thing to do, but we
have to continue to question it

835
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:47,440
because the the, you know, the
the avatars that, you know, some

836
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,640
of these billionaires want to
create for us.

837
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,200
Well, businesses are impacted by
that, right?

838
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:54,800
Yeah.
So if we can ask better

839
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:56,600
questions, I think I've done my
job.

840
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:02,080
Yeah, that that's, that's
really, really helpful to know.

841
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:06,800
Do you remember everything that
happened with Cambridge

842
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,880
Analytica?
I do.

843
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:17,800
So I'm bringing this up because
it seemed like at the time, what

844
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:22,040
you could do with Facebook was
miraculous, might have been

845
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:26,600
illegal, might have been uncool,
but it was, you know, even if

846
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:31,880
there were 20 percent, 60% bots,
the outcome worked, right?

847
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,440
And I'm bringing it up because I
happen to know Brittany, who is

848
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,320
the whistleblower, and I
interviewed her on this podcast

849
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:44,240
and we've been friends.
The day she blew the whistle, I

850
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:49,080
met her and at a party in New
York City, and she needed to

851
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:51,440
escape because she was like, in
trouble, right?

852
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:55,640
Like everybody hated her.
And so I said, I own part of a

853
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:57,960
hotel in Tuluma and I sent her
down there and we've been

854
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:03,040
friends ever since.
But it was really interesting if

855
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:08,320
you, because I looked under the
hood after a while of how they

856
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:09,760
were doing all that stuff at
Cambridge.

857
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,400
It was fascinating.
I mean, talk about smart people,

858
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:14,520
right?
And.

859
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:23,560
The, the ability to, to
manipulate using these platforms

860
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,080
is, is really incredible because
the amount of control and, and

861
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,160
this is the, the, the other, you
know, this actually brings up

862
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:34,720
another point that Mark said,
which is right around that time,

863
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,160
he said, what we're going to do
now is we're going to discard

864
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,840
the agencies and, and we're
going to have our team just

865
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:46,200
generate AI customers.
And then we're going to connect

866
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:50,320
to your company's bank account.
And then we're going to just run

867
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,200
your ads and again, the click
across.

868
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:57,640
So wait, wait a minute.
It doesn't sound good, right?

869
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:02,800
I mean.
Just like if I'm any Fortune

870
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,960
500, If I I, it doesn't matter
if I'm a rational business

871
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,360
person, if I'm a Dean of a
Business School, if I'm a

872
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,040
professor, if I'm a business
student, if I am a, if I'm

873
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,000
breathing, I'm thinking this
guy's going to control my

874
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,000
market.
And commit fraud in the process,

875
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,760
right?
Fine.

876
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,080
And let's say it's perfectly
legit, Arthur, right?

877
00:55:27,000 --> 00:55:30,040
He's going to control my market
and my money.

878
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:35,920
Yeah, and people cheer for that.
People, what are we doing?

879
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,560
Seriously.
Like, what are we doing?

880
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,800
We, we have got to take a step
back.

881
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,680
Business is human.
Last time I checked, no bot

882
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,920
bought a refrigerator, no bot
bought a newspaper, if that

883
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,480
there is such a thing or an
online subscription.

884
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,520
And maybe they will, right.
But right now, we have to

885
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,640
understand our, you know, how
behaviors are changing because

886
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,600
of what we're doing online.
And we also have to understand

887
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:06,000
that, like, you know, if your
end customer is me, why would I

888
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,240
buy your stuff?
Yeah.

889
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,000
So how are you going to talk to
me?

890
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:14,840
Where are you going to reach me?
Those questions are rudimentary.

891
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:18,080
And I think we're losing that
because of let's do this and

892
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,240
let's do that and let's try this
and let's try that.

893
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,840
It it's, it's a little insane.
So one last question, because I

894
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:35,520
had cause to get involved with
NDC seven years ago and they

895
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:45,520
were bragging about how network
television still is viewed and

896
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:50,720
has a great reach.
And it was true, like people

897
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:55,040
watch network television not and
there's a lot of people don't

898
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:58,000
have cable and so they're
they're watching terrestrial.

899
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,800
They got their antenna up.
It's digital now, right?

900
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:02,280
Remember when that all
transformed?

901
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,840
They required it to be digital.
It comes through clear like 4K,

902
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:10,160
right?
Is, is that still a legit, you

903
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,880
know, we're watching CNBC and
whatever, whatever.

904
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,680
And you know, people are
spending tons of money, I guess.

905
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,040
So like, I don't know how much
it costs you.

906
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:24,760
You probably do advertising shit
on it, CNBC and repeating it and

907
00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:26,320
I don't think they keep on doing
it.

908
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:30,720
If it didn't work, maybe what do
you what's what's your view on

909
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,600
that?
The, the, the numbers say that

910
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:41,120
it is, it continues to be a
viable, continues to be a viable

911
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:42,480
channel.
All right.

912
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:49,160
And it, it's funny you said that
because I don't know, 3-4 days

913
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:52,480
ago there was a Google review
for one of our clients, which we

914
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,200
do TV commercials for.
And it was like, I love your

915
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,440
products, but can I go 5 minutes
without seeing your commercial?

916
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,840
That was the review.
Now that is a sample of one.

917
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:13,280
It's anecdotal evidence, but
right now politics is on

918
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:16,000
Twitter, it's on social, it's
on, you know, wherever.

919
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:18,960
But in political season, where
do people go?

920
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,120
Right.
In the NCAA tournament, where do

921
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,280
people go?
the Super Bowl?

922
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,760
May I, I wrote an article in
2017 saying that the Super Bowl

923
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,640
one day will be on Amazon.
And, and how about that?

924
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,520
It literally is it.
It's still online.

925
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:40,160
They're they're still, they
still think there's value in

926
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,440
that little thing.
So who knows?

927
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,720
But but yeah, 2017 and 2016 I
said that's going to happen.

928
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:49,440
But.
But all of these folks and, and,

929
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,520
and people like NBC, they're
going to have to bid for these

930
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:56,440
leagues and, and they're going
to have to go up against Amazon

931
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:03,000
and, and these guys, right?
So, so I am a, a proponent of

932
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:07,240
television where it warrants it.
And again, it's like a mutual

933
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:10,400
fund, right?
Depending on the client, you sit

934
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,960
down, you say, where am I going
to invest my money?

935
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:14,800
How am I going to invest my
money?

936
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,080
What is the mix, right, growth
stocks, whatever all of that

937
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,880
and, and you implement it and
you have to give it some time

938
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,640
because time, you know, Warren
Buffett talks about that all the

939
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,400
time, right?
He talks about the time value of

940
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,400
money and the time value of
stocks.

941
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,440
There is such a thing as the
time value of marketing.

942
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,720
Yeah, I believe it got to give
it a chance.

943
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,840
And repetition works.
This so happens.

944
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,520
That's right.
Do you have a copy of your book

945
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,120
there you can hold up for
everybody to see?

946
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,000
You know what, it's funny
because I, I gave the last ones.

947
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,200
We, we, we had a, I'm on the
board of the Schills

948
00:59:55,200 --> 01:00:02,440
Entrepreneurial Fund in New York
and we had our gala and I gave

949
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:07,160
out every last one.
But it's irresponsibly digital.

950
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:12,000
It is on Amazon and you know,
but if you're a Barnes and Noble

951
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:15,640
person, you can get it there.
Do you believe we have a Barnes

952
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:17,480
and Noble that just opened up in
Park City?

953
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:20,400
I love.
That I, I, you know, you know,

954
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:22,800
I'll, I'll go to the Barnes and
Noble around here.

955
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,640
And, you know, there's an Indigo
here in Short Hills Mall.

956
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:28,120
Yeah, I'll go and hang out.
There's still a Barnes and Noble

957
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:32,560
5050 third and and 5th.
In the city.

958
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,560
In the city, yeah.
OK, Yeah, yeah, there's,

959
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,320
there's, you know, there's
another one here and I want to

960
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,480
say it's Rockaway or Randolph.
I mean that, you know, there's

961
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,600
still aren't people, you know,
I'm starting to leave the house

962
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,840
now without this.
Good for you.

963
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,960
I, I I don't.
Last night, last night I went to

964
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:56,960
a, to a dinner at Botha's Roll.
Oh, great, great, great Golf

965
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:58,120
Club.
Yeah, yeah.

966
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:00,320
And, and people were, were, you
know, they were all taking

967
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,840
pictures like, well, you know,
can you take a picture with your

968
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:04,440
phone and send it to me?
And I'm like, I don't have my

969
01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:05,200
phone.
Yeah.

970
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,800
I, I, I, I need a break from
that personally.

971
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:12,800
And so now when I go out with my
family, it's very hard to do,

972
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:16,680
especially in the in in our
business when I go out with my

973
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,920
family or if I'm going to go out
to a special occasion like like

974
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,360
last night, I'm leaving my phone
at home.

975
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,080
Good for you.
Yeah, Good for you.

976
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,600
Yeah.
I get yelled at at the gym all

977
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:30,240
the time.
We we go to the gym together and

978
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,440
I've got my phone in my pocket
and.

979
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,720
Yeah.
I'd probably leave it at home.

980
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:37,680
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's the
gym.

981
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,560
It's an hour, you know, I, you
know, sometimes I want it to be

982
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,280
1989 all over again.
I know that's not going to

983
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,760
happen.
But like, you know, for me, I,

984
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:52,480
I, I need to, I need a break
from that then because I am

985
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:53,840
addicted to it.
Yeah.

986
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,360
I think we all are.
I think we are and I find it

987
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:03,240
useful, so and productive.
And I tend not to scroll so I've

988
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,480
been able to like.
I love Rogan's post and Ghost,

989
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,920
right?
He doesn't look at anybody's

990
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,800
comments, right?
It's just, of course he's in a

991
01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:15,680
different league.
But I don't look at any

992
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,920
comments, right?
And I don't post that often.

993
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,600
The only place we post is on
LinkedIn in X.

994
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:25,400
But it's all business related.
There's nothing political or

995
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,080
personal that we put right.
Right, right.

996
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:30,120
Yeah.
I mean, you know, and, and it's,

997
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,960
it's, and I try to talk to my
kids about this too, because,

998
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:40,520
you know, we held out with the
kids for a long time, but as

999
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,880
soon as they got it, because all
of their friends are on it, they

1000
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:48,760
were, they, they were sucked in.
So I, I think this is, this

1001
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:51,720
continues to be a brave new
world and it, it keeps getting

1002
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,320
either braver or newer with AI
and I don't know what's next and

1003
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:59,720
the impact of that, but I'm a
skeptic.

1004
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,880
And so I I want to guard my
clients money first.

1005
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:04,720
Yeah.
Before we do anything.

1006
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:09,080
So, you know, I, I do feel like
there's a fiduciary thing going

1007
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,280
on there with our relationship
simply because I, I've

1008
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,200
experienced the waste and I, I
don't want them to experience

1009
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,120
that.
Yeah, totally appreciate that.

1010
01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,200
Well, this has been super funny.
Thanks.

1011
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:22,320
I'm so glad you were able to do
this.

1012
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:23,720
Yeah, me too.
Thank you.

1013
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:25,600
Thanks for your time and thanks
for the opportunity.

1014
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,080
You're very welcome.
We'll make sure you get a copy

1015
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,400
of everything and share it with
your folks.

1016
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,080
And I'll, I'll, I'll send you a
book.

1017
01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:33,920
Just send me send me your
address.

1018
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:35,360
I would love that.
Yeah.

1019
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:37,440
And I'll read it.
I know people say that, but I'll

1020
01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:39,360
read it.
Please.

1021
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:40,920
Great.
Thank you.

1022
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:42,880
And thank you, everybody, for
joining us today.

1023
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:44,360
Till next time.
Thank you.

1024
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:45,440
Bye.
Bye.