Designing Your Legacy: Insights from Angelina Carleton

0:00 Hello, welcome everybody to another episode of Arthur's roundtables. Super happy to have everybody here today and just a big thank you to the audience and how you continue to participate and view our little Arthur's Roundtable episodes. Really appreciate you participating and I hope to continue to provide interesting information and it's been a lot of fun for for me as well. So super appreciate it. Angelina's here with us today really happy because it's family office, family office adjacent type information. And it's a it's a good story and and some interesting outcomes and I think you'll find it informative. And so I hope you enjoy it.

0:41 So with that, Angela, thanks for doing this. Angelina, thank you for doing this. My pleasure to be here, thank you for having me. You're you're very welcome. My pleasure. So let's start with the beginning of your journey and take it from there. Is that all right? That sounds great. I think in terms of an ice breaker just for the listening audience, I was born in Texas to a family. My father was an Air Force intelligence officer. So I did have the opportunity to move 10 times around the world to experience the Middle East and Europe, etcetera. And then we did end up back in the United States. I graduated from Penn State University in the year 2000, and I started to work in real estate. And the origin story of, yes, Nittany Lions. Yes, yes.

1:22 Go Big Blue. Yeah. And, and so I graduated in the year 2000 and I started to work in real estate. And I did have a mentor. And so kudos to anyone that decides to mentor any young mind out there because that is an invaluable opportunity to shadow someone in the business world. And I ended up working in commercial real estate. I received my license back in the year, I think it was late 2007 or maybe it was 2008. And I think I, I did well obviously in commercial real estate because I was able to take a year off in 2014 and to go back to school with a Co active training institute. But the origin story was twofold. And one was the, the deeper reason.

2:03 But I'll just cover the surface reason here, which was I had clients that weren't multimillionaires, which is common in commercial real estate, and they'd have a portfolio of properties. And yet number one, they didn't think about their legacy. But #2 oftentimes I would notice that we would go out to the bar and of course, I had my husband with me. And it could be because they were visiting or staying at a hotel or, or whatever the scenario was. And oftentimes the stress levels of them drinking Kahlua at the bar and yet being on 7 or 8 different medications. And I know that that's like there's the front side of of business, but then there's also the, the backside. So I thought to myself, well, who was thinking about their legacy? And I know some individuals are just going to chase the deal.

2:45 And those individuals may have what I call it an inciting event where they might change in terms of their awareness. Some individuals might chase the deal the rest of their lives, but there are others that I think since COVID particularly, are starting to think about other aspects of their life in terms of their ripple effect. I know that we live in a culture, I call it like the Madison Ave. and culture where we're always going to be immortal forever. You know, it's the the shiny cars and the thing. I mean the shiny yachts. I mean, we're always going to live forever until there's a moment where we realize that we might not. And so I think too, when somebody can get their personal affairs in order. And I just don't mean legal documents and financial documents because sure, there is the financial capital piece, there is the money piece, but it's so much more.

3:29 It's so much deeper when somebody finally sits down to design and plan their legacy. So COVID let a lot of people sit and think for a while rather than having to get up and do the same thing over and over and again every day, right? Well, I think COVID did a couple of things. I think people woke up because they were either trapped in their homes, particular in the United States and in certain states, Florida was different than California, etcetera, depended on where somebody domiciled. But I think also it. So I think for some people it felt like Groundhog Day, but I think also what ended up happening is if somebody lost someone around them, it was like a wake up call. And so that was also when I started my podcast, because when I began this coaching practice in 2014, people weren't talking about legacy or if they did, it was just in the context of death and taxes.

4:19 And then what I noticed during COVID is now the consulting houses are, are speaking about it, whether it's McKenzie or Deloitte or the accounting firms. So now it, it's brought to the forefront of, I think more so public consciousness. Oh, sorry about that. But I also am aware that it's still kind of a brand new topic. I mean, we've got a wealth transfer that's coming on in the next 5 or 10 years. We've got the feminization of wealth that's coming. So I think it's like this iceberg is like right here, like the Titanic is right here. But it's been looming and people are, I think, are now talking about it more. Do you think that in my experience, the trust in the States, lawyers and the insurance guys, girls, whatever, were the ones that really brought up the subject matter prior to this sort of awakening to it? Was that your experience as well? Yeah, absolutely.

5:09 The difficulty with an estate attorney or an amazing CPA or even a wealth advisor is their training is when the four corners of that document so that they can be in compliance. And now if they have done the inner work, kudos, that's great. Now they can lead their client in other areas because as you know, somebody could say, well Arthur, I trust you, let me tell you about more about my life. Can you help me solve this and and perhaps you have the life experiences to help them solve that. But if you don't, then the conversation ends there. And I bring up the example of Robin Williams. His family was in litigation afterwards, multiple spouses and children from multiple marriages. But it wasn't really about the millions. It was like about like the baseball cap and the bicycle. And so can an attorney help with bringing up those conversations ahead of time to understand what do all of these individuals need from the patriarch or the matriarch? You know, what is it they need in guidance or the the back story of their family history?

6:04 You know, what is it that they need to feel like their identity is solid enough so that when they get $120 million, they don't get lost? Yeah, it's really interesting because I've seen a lot of this as we've talked about offline and it doesn't matter how much money you have, you have some of the same problems as if you don't have money, you just have additional problems or problems that are exacerbated by money. But what I'd like to ask you and you can say no, but you said you want to cover the surface part of this but not the other part. I'd be really interested in hearing the other part if. I could tell you. I could tell you. Yeah, sure. It's up to you. OK, my husband has advised me not to, to bring it up, but I can bring it up. I think it's come up.

6:47 No, I mean, I can, I can bring it up. I mean, it's, I think it's actually come up. I'd be adding it so. Yeah, no, I can bring it up. You know, maybe that's, it's, it's personal. Then it came up on a few of your other, I think of the two videos on your homepage. Yeah. The other aspect of it was I think the year was 2011 or 12 and I was doing well as a commercial real estate broker. I'd worked with both NAI Capital as well as Sperry Vaness and was invited to the six plate luncheon, the Luxe Hotel, Bel Air, W Sunset Blvd. And the topic was private prisons. And I hadn't yet figured out that of course it's a product type just like multi family apartments and hospitality, which is hotels. Of course it is. Of course it's got a financial formula. So I'm looking to the left and the right and I'm asking myself, do I want my legacy to be based on the suffering and misery of other people?

7:32 And the answer is no. And so I think that was also the other bee in my bonnet of, well, if someone else is deciding my future, whether it's financial planners or whoever it is, but when do I get to say so? I think that was, it was kind of like a punch to my gut. It was. And not everyone might get their cage rattled from that moment. Of course, there's millions and billions of dollars in public private partnerships. But I just wanted to design A legacy that it was different. And So what ended up happening was I went to the Internet and I wanted to see who could help me design A legacy. And I, and as you can imagine, I could find coaches and consultants to help me stop smoking, lose weight and double my income. But I couldn't find someone. And again, I would have been in my 30s then. So I, I would, it was not a retirement conversation. It was, I think a life planning conversation. But then it, it, it grew from there because I realized that, you know, where is, who is filling this niche? Because it's not just my problem. It's a problem for, for anybody that's out there, whether they're self-made and to today, I think 2/3 of today's self or two 2/3 of today's affluent are self-made. And that's separate from individuals that come from a family of multi generational wealth that has that have brand new decisions.

8:43 And again, who who is there to help them have this legacy conversation? Yeah, who is it? Yeah, I think it's those brave individuals that are now coming forward and maybe they've been there for many years. I think Jay Hughes is a fabulous example of somebody that will step in and see the bigger picture and say, well, what are we doing with this capital? You know, you've got so much here, whether it's internal resourcefulness or external, you know, social capital or external financial capital. But still it's how do you pull it all together? And I think another part of it is like when you spoke about, I think a moment ago regarding an identity problems are just exacerbated. I think the identity piece is, well, who am I and does somebody know at age 28 or 38? Yeah, it's really a challenge, but it's one that if you have the luxury of time to think as opposed to just do, you know, there's what's the old, I can't remember the name of the book, but one of the guys that started all this besides Hughes, he's which is kind of the grandfather of all this, somebody that you wouldn't have found in the legacy planning or state planning business. But it was the guy that wrote the book about working on your business rather in your business. Can't remember the name of that book, but it was now that was 7 Habits, I think.

9:57 But I'll think of it maybe. No, maybe maybe you're a Gerber, but the point was, is that if you're toiling away working in your business, rather than sort of floating above it and working on it, then you'll get stuck working in your business all the time. It's sort of a pedestrian view. But when you when you look at it, it makes so much sense because you know, arguably, and I learned this a long time ago, don't practice it as well as perhaps I should or others do, but I shouldn't do anything that anybody else can do for me. I should focus on my unique abilities and everything else should be done by somebody else. Should the bad word, but is more productive. It's it's done by somebody else because it allows me to execute on my unique ability.

10:49 Not that I'm special, but I there's certain things that a whole host of employees can't do that I can do. And there's a whole host of things that they do that I can do also. But it's so nonproductive for me to do that. Like it doesn't make any sense for me to do the $25.00 an hour task right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Hire somebody to do. I think the other aspect of legacy is oftentimes if there's not an inciting event, someone has to ask and you have children so that let's say one of your daughter said, I don't know, some profound question like, Dad, what do you want for us? And now all of a sudden you got to start thinking. Yeah, and oddly enough, or all too often, the relationship between children and parents isn't exactly the one that catalyzes that type of discussion. You actually have to take the bull by the horns. And if it's important to you as a parent to 'cause that discussion happened and they'll either engage or they won't, right?

11:42 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I brought a couple of examples of individuals that did design A legacy and the challenges that they came across as well as what worked. So for your audience. Let's do it. Yeah, if that could be valuable because. Thanks for doing that. I just, I wanted people to understand if it's OK with you like what exactly does this look like and then what's the process look like and then what's the outcome? So you know, maybe that will be helpful to share that that's. OK, with you. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that no matter what the net worth is, and obviously the examples that I'm going to provide, these are all individuals that are multimillionaires. So they have something to lose. But I think that again, as 2/3 of today's affluent or self-made, this could apply to anyone, but they're, they're middle class or wherever they're starting in life.

12:30 I don't think it's just, you know, I don't think legacy and the designing it is just for, you know, one group of people. You know, I think there was that psychologist out of Connecticut or New Hampshire that wrote that book about paradise and about that island that you go to and then if you get kicked off of the island, Strangers in Paradise I. Haven't read it. OK, he's a psychologist, maybe he's out in New Hampshire. He wrote a book about it, that when somebody becomes, when they come into wealth. Gosh, I wish I could remember the name right now. Anyways, yeah, so obviously these examples, but I think it touches upon strings. And when I say strings, it's like the red threads that connect all of us.

13:11 Because like one of the examples, it was a gentleman who's 55, but he lost his father. Well, his father was 55 when the father passed away. So that was the inciting event to wake him up in terms of his mortality to do something. But there can be all types of reasons. Yeah, absolutely. Or if somebody gets the rug pulled out from under them. One of the things is when somebody is comfortable, they may not design A legacy unless they really have the Ford vision. Like I've mentioned the Rothschild family before or you know, whether or not whether or not I like all of their business decisions. I think that they were brilliant to kick the soccer ball out like 7 generations or 10 generations to choose to instead of watching the sports game on the weekend to think about how do we design something that's going to last and maybe everyone's going to buy into it. But gosh, how how much better it is to be born and to see capital than to not.

14:01 I mean, some people think, oh, it's great to earn it, but the reality is if you look around today, gosh, maybe less than 10% of individuals can actually earn it in terms of competition and staying power. Yeah, it's, it's well, for me, it's really simple. I'd rather be captain of my own rowboat than made on a ship. Yeah, right. So, but that decision was made for me a long, long time ago. Not for me, but circumstances were such that that was an easy thing for me to adopt independent of what the horrors that ensued. That was just not going to somebody. But go ahead. Let's let's continue examples. Well, I wanted to, before I bring up the first example, I just wanted to highlight a couple of what individuals and families are facing today that where they could be emotionally overwhelmed to not even have these conversations. And I also want to add that during COVID, I interviewed both of my parents for like 10 or 11 hours. It was like an hour a day each.

14:58 So it wasn't just like in one, it wasn't like an intense session. It was like an hour a day so they could have their own time afterwards to kind of debrief and then come back the next day. And it was one of the most valuable decisions ever. Nice. Yeah, because you can finally get to know someone past their wallet or or past expectations of them, of what they should be. Yeah. That's but that was really enlightening. It was just in, in terms of people like you had said, they get so busy. And so I think to have the opportunity now, gosh, it was yeah, it's one of the the best decisions. OK. So, so I wrote down 4 things that I think that can overwhelm individuals and families today when it comes to planning their legacy and designing it.

15:41 And the reason that I bring up individuals is because half of America is single. And if half of America is single, I can imagine that has a ripple effect to other nations and countries. OK, Number one, we've never been taught how to talk about money. And so, yeah. And so I think one of the challenges is, is if, let's say you think your daughters aren't ready, you might clam up and then there could be secrets and you might not talk about it. Which means that in terms of the feminization of wealth, it's like delivering something and hoping that somebody does well. But if they don't have the training, you know, consistently ahead of time, whether it's 5 or 10 years or whatever the time frame is, it's like asking a woman to go out on a yacht race and she doesn't even know the word word starboard yet.

16:23 So that's the first number two, no shared language for legacy. Like if you play soccer, I think it's called football, in other countries, you've got shared language around that, like goalie or something. But #3 people inherit silence, not structure. That's interesting. Well, even I was the one to initiate the conversations with my family. Yeah, that's really interesting. And even I. Silence rather than structure. Yeah, even my, even my father said to me, gosh. And she, Maya, I would have never asked these questions to my parents. And I'm like, well, it's a new day. It's 2025 or whatever the year is, right? So. And he did speak about even his own grandmother, Lillian Holland, Smart, the British etiquette.

17:06 She didn't hug anyone, but she spoke warmth through her words. And I just thought, wow, she didn't hug you like. But I think a part of it is the expectation that we're supposed to know, but we cannot read minds. And then you add the weight of, and I'm going to get into the examples in a moment. I have to keep an eye on my time. So I make sure I paste this. But #4 fear of losing each other more than losing wealth. Because when money can come in, there can be resentments of, well, you got more than I got or whatever it is amongst siblings. But even just what I thought I was going to get more. Is that all you gave me? Yeah, the old managing expectations thing. Well, sure, sure. And a part of what needs to be given is if I bring up the Robin Williams example again, is maybe I don't need your millions, or maybe not as much of the millions.

17:50 Maybe I. Want or don't want them? Yeah. Sure, maybe it's a bicycle or that baseball cap or in the instance between my sister and I, we're going to be fighting over the Turkish rugs. OK, so I, I wanted to bring that up, but also just to set the context that and, and you know, this, we've got one of the largest wealth transfer that is about to happen and it's overlapping with number one of the highest rates of anxiety, depression and identity confusion. There's generational gaps in worldview. There's reduced in person family time. There's also blended and complex family structures and a rising distrust in institutions. So we have to have these conversations now. And in terms of you asked that question of how I lean into the Co active coach training model, I know that there are individuals that have said they don't use the word coach, call yourself an advisor and a strategist. And I get all of that from marking. But I also know that if I ask you a question, Arthur, and you answer it, you're going to own that answer more than if I, quote, tell you something.

18:45 So, yeah. And the other thing I wrote down before I go into the examples is people aren't just fighting about the money, They're also fighting fighting about meaning. In other words, when meaning isn't clarified, money becomes the placeholder for every unspoken fear, hope and unresolved aspect in that relationship. So I know that you've you've said, you shared with me that regarding succession, you've come across some situations that may have been like a nightmare. They may have been dicey so. All of them without. Exception. Yeah. And I think that it's more than the money. It's, you know, how do you throw me into something if I'm not ready for it? Or how do you how did you not think about that wine spot? I thought you knew me better. And sometimes it's not just, you know, patting someone on the back and telling them to, you know, rise to the occasion that's going to enable them to succeed in the future. It's every one of the 50 blind spots. The first example that I wanted to bring up was I'm just going to call him Jasper so I don't have to use the real name. And this had to do with an individual. He wasn't heir to the Romanov line out of Russia, but he was also self-made.

19:47 And so the question is to this individual in my building a legacy because I earned it or because I inherited A lineage that demands it. So that's a part of the pressure that can come from, you know, expectations, not just from parents, but if it stretches far back. And so it's reconciling a dual identity, self-made versus ancestral, ancestral lineage. And I and I thought that one of the questions that comes up with this particular client is where does my story belong now and what will my children find their roots in, as well as how do I build without repeating history some of the challenges? And if you've worked in business, you'd be probably know some of this. It's decision fatigue, lone wolf leadership, emotional suppression, avoidance of vulnerability.

20:29 Because even to have these legacy conversations means that there's an aspect of vulnerability because this is not like new sports and weather. Yeah. Do you think the baseline is coming to grips with deciding that you want to do something about your legacy 1st and then second, having the conversation in the family meeting like Hughes sets out that sort of thing? Say that question one more time, if you will, because I I do think it has to do with go ahead. No, it's a little convoluted. Is the first step somebody willing to address the legacy issues, if that's of importance? And then some of the things that you just said, as he said, require you to have conversations, hard conversations, or at least start the hard conversations with the right language and understanding what people are capable of and what they're not capable of in the context of a family meeting.

21:29 Absolutely, 100%. I think it takes courage and I think it's new and different conversation. I don't think that they necessarily have to be difficult. Let's say that you've got a family meeting and there's eight people in the room or four people or whatever that number is. It's really just inviting the individuals in that room to speak on their thoughts without judgment. Like in the first meeting, I don't want to go home and necessarily garden variety information, but it's inviting them to say what it is that they need to say. Tony Robbins has this expression of 51% of success is simply just showing up. And I think it's a willingness to show up time and time again. It's just like if you go to the gym once a week or or however many times you go, I don't know, OK, but some someone could say, oh, it's so simple.

22:11 OK, well, five times. So I think that if somebody can do legacy work as a morning ritual or an evening ritual, they're better for it. A lot of times consultants and advisors and coaches talk about values, and that's great. Allocate and position those values as the emotional spine of your legacy. Now that's where you start building momentum. And so if you think about your values every morning or evening as part of your ritual, then again, it's how do you then bring it to the, the bigger context of you know, who, who do you get to be today? But it's also what I call future projection of the visualization of like, let's say you live to 85 and you get to meet that Arthur at at age 85. And it's asking the question of, you know, what did he create and when you meet him?

22:56 Think about that a lot, but that I might be different than others because I've been exposed to a lot of craziness, right? That I do think about it a lot, but thanks for asking. When you say craziness, do you mean deals? No, I mean in fighting in families that have lots of money that I'm exposed to and whether you have a lot of money or a little money, there's still craziness within families. And it's all I'm saying is because of the people I traffic in, so to speak, there's money complicates things a lot. Well, it amplifies it. Yes. Yeah, there's an expression that money, as well as success and failure amplify everything. So.

23:37 True. Yeah, I think that's right. Well, everyone's got their crazy, but the crazy is what we don't talk about. The craziest. The pink elephants in the room that we haven't processed yet. Yeah, So. So some of them. So. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no. Please go ahead. Well, you use the word traffic a moment. So so let's say like with women with money, one of the things that they can make the joke about is like, well, don't look down here. They're talking about their boobs. It's like, look up. OK. And what they're saying is, do you like me for me or do you like me for my money? And that's when women come into wealth or women already have wealth because they're born into it. So if you use like that word trafficked, oh, you know, the families. So I could say, well, what if that woman feels objectified or. And so it's it's leaning into. Yeah.

24:18 So a lot of times people are afraid to lean into tough conversations of like, OK, say, well, let's go right there. Tell me about what it is to feel objectified. Tell me more. What is the lesson there? What is the message there? And and you just go straight into that pink elephant in the room because if you don't, then she carries around or he or whatever carries around a voice in their head that never gets explored. And if you can't quote there. So in coaching, there's something called naming it, but if you name it, it takes the power away. That's interesting too. Because there's all these conversations we avoid. I think, I think your organization posted some recently on LinkedIn about the podcast that I did with Ben Ulrich and Danny and Maxi Maxim. And one of the things that they were talking about is the red lines in every family.

25:03 But the red lines are the things that we don't think we're supposed to talk about. And so we we don't bring them up, but they're the exact things we have to talk about of, of everything of the resentments. And I didn't like that you did that. Well, great. Let's bring it up now so we can finally put some peace there because if we don't, then it's, you know what somebody could call like the Mexican standoff it people just become wider and wider in the distance instead of like thinking about how we could work together. Sometimes coaching is like a redirect in energy because either people are putting their energy into like that resentment and it's like, go ahead, go ahead. You know what it causes me to think about Why sometimes having a shrink or psychologist involved in your problems is valuable is because there's somebody that if you can get a wave and defeats the the monetary aspect of that, meaning that oftentimes these people want to keep you complicated and in problems because the annuity is nice. I mean, there's some nefarious intent there that we just all are aware of.

26:08 But if you can find somebody that doesn't have skin in the game, that not like a family member to go and have a counsel with, then that often gives you clarity. And I was thinking that it's similar in that if you bring somebody like you into an environment where things aren't talked about with somebody that doesn't have school in the game in the context of the family, and people realize that you might actually authentically have an interest in solving the problem. Because it's not your skin that's going to suffer if the problem because I'm talking about my resentment, right? And so it's not your resentment.

26:50 We're having a discussion about my resentment. Yeah, I also don't. Yeah, I don't have the same emotional triggers because I don't have the history. Yeah. And the other thing is I don't keep a client longer than three years. So it's a learning curve that they can learn all of these skills and then they walk away with that as well as like a structure and a plan because to have something is, is better than having nothing. It's kind of like, OK, we've got all these resources and we're here. And then what? The patriarch dies or the matriarch dies and we didn't get their input. One of the thing, one of the things I wrote, this was a third example, was that this particular individual, their challenge wasn't about the money. The challenges were psychological, relational, spiritual and existential. I would think the one.

27:30 What's that? Did they know that or did you get them to? I told them, I told them, yeah, with an open hand. I think 1 distinction with therapists and psychologists. And I'm making the disclaimer right now that I'm trained as a Co active coach and not as as as a licensed psychologist. I think one of the distinctions is a psychologist or therapist will look at the past and there is value in that. But then there's also shifting the energy over to what is it that you want to create in the future. So our minds are you probably already heard with this, like the caveman of The Cave woman, we look for danger in the environment. OK, but that's also called like the what's wrong conversation. And we can have that all day long. That's the natural default that humans go to.

28:11 But then if you can shift over to the what's wanting to happen conversation, that's when you open up brand new answers and and you ask new questions. Yeah, what about? What about legacy trauma, like the patriarch or matriarch had trauma in their youth, in their family, and that automatically is embedded in the DNA of the family and that the children don't even know that it happened to them and they don't want to talk about it. I mean, that's complicated stuff, right? Yeah, actually, that was my second example that I wrote down. But in the sense of an option, I'm going to use someone else's name. So I'm going to use the name Paulo. And so the gentleman, his father passed away at age 55, and now he's 55 today. And his father helped with the nationalization of banks in Mexico. So you've got this.

28:55 Not just the pressure of will I live up to it, but this individual also walked away from being a member of the Catholic Church because he wanted to become a Christian. So there was some laws regarding what I call social capital because of a spiritual choice. And so I I think a part of that is what I call being trapped between two legacies. It's like in the monumental shadow of the father, in the pressure to carry the torch, but also rebelling against it and being defined by the father's legacy. It's it's fear of being compared, the internal conflicts. But but I think 1 of what you're bringing up is if there is trauma, congratulations. If you as AG two generation or the next generation, wherever you fall into, the reality is if you don't work through what the parents didn't work through, you get to carry that.

29:36 Like, you know, if you believe in Santa Claus, OK, it's like you get to carry these presents with you and it's baggage. And if they didn't want to do the work because they didn't have the skills or the time or the courage, congratulations. Now you get to and but you don't have to. But, but the reality is if you do the work, you're better for it. You're free. But now you've got to become more courageous than those that came before you so. How's that work? So I imagine there's a lot of people who don't realize that that trauma exists. So I think they do deep down, somewhere inside, but do they want to give language to it? So trauma, here's how I define it in terms of common speech. It's moments where you feel like you are without power, and it could be within the context of relationships.

30:19 It could be in the context of money if somebody faced homelessness, it could be in the context of getting overpowered in a business meeting or having to file bankruptcy. It's this moment of where you feel powerless. And so I think like if somebody's G2 and they and yeah, I think absolutely in terms of epigenetics that we carry on the things that our parents didn't want to face. Like I've got a mother who, you know, she was based out of South Korea and she was, she had to face like, you know, I think there was occupation by the Japanese at that time. And so she felt like the first ten years of her life, she was basically running for her life. And they have to like bury their food in order to eat in the ground. How does she she's never opened up that that experience.

31:00 But now the the next generation, I realize that if I don't work through her stuff, I can't go forward in the success of my career. I. Think you're right? So I know that that experience might not be universal to all people, but what I am bringing up is that do I have to do the work? Absolutely not. Am I better for it? Sure. Will every member of a family do the work? No. Sometimes if they say things like, oh, the empath is going to do the work. I'm not an empath. I just realized that no one else is going to do the work. And I think that's also sometimes, like with males, they won't like step up until no one else steps up. And then it's kind of like, OK, well, if I don't have choices and no one else is doing it, then it's like then they they show up, but still it's a choice.

31:40 It is a choice. Do you think that? Do you think that people want to make that choice but aren't ready? In other words, you have to be fertile, right? You have to be ready to do something. Everyone has a first day. Yes, Yeah, everyone has a first day. I don't know if any of us are ready for. I mean, I know that when I was growing up, my dad used to say to me, success happens when you're A, ready for it and B, when you want it. So I think a bigger part of it is, do they want to say enough is enough regarding the trauma in this family of whatever that thing was, whatever that pattern was. So like if let's say there's a loop and the loop could be disassociation once you recognize that loop or the loop could be addiction, but they but the addiction could be to disassociation or whatever that loop is. Once you see the loop, because half of it is just seeing it, you can't Unsee it.

32:39 And then once you see it, you're going to want to make different choices, I think. That's right. Because so, so like, let's say there's like Arthur right here. I'm just going to use this pillow highlighter for a moment. OK. So like when you're in it, it's really hard to see it because you're so close. But if you come up here like in the Eagles view, you know, they call it the meta view. That's what they call it in the Co active training model. It's now all of a sudden you're not emotionally attached. So it's like, OK, well, I can see that loop around the airport, that disassociation. What do I want to choose that next time? Because one of the things that happens is as you grow, it's like the T-shirt becomes too tight. You don't want to make the same decisions anymore. You get like frustrated. It's like, like if you bring up the fancy family council meetings, it's like, oh, are we here again? Because if you, if you grow, but then one of the things that happens in every family is what they call quantum entanglement. So if you start to grow, you end up actually taking the other family members with you because of your, your nodding. Do you understand what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, of course.

33:39 OK. So it it really takes one family member in the examples that I gave it, I ended working with the patriarchs and all the scenarios. But if they did the work inside of themselves and they went back to their family in a new way to design that legacy and to give the gift of that framework to their children, to their wives, etcetera. Do you have another question? Yeah. Lots of, lots of them, but this is fascinating. It's interesting. The language that you use is illuminating. The there's a trend now in not in the context of legacy, but maybe in the context more of healing legacy traumas and other traumas of using plant based medicine in ayahuasca and all these shaman type stuff. Have you found that to be helpful in anything that you're doing?

34:30 I have heard of that plant based medicines and I'm just writing down healing legacy traumas because I think that's a very interesting phrase. I think that, you know, they talk about how we live in this day and age where all this stuff is coming to the surface. I don't I'm not going to make it religious and talk about like the Book of Revelation, but I think a lot is coming to the surface and with what is getting exposed and that is coming up. It's like, congratulations, you can work with that now because it's not suppressed. So whether it's somebody works with it through plant medicine or it's the choice to, you know, they call it like talk therapy or, or whatever the method is. Yeah, I think that it's, I think people are at a crossroads today. Do they want to do the same thing that they've done the last so many years and decades or centuries? Or do they want to be creative and choose a new way that works?

35:13 So I think a part of legacy is asking the question of what do I want to take with me and then what do I want to let go of? Yeah, I think Tony Robbins was really effective in many ways for people, not just in terms of recognizing that there is a a giant within them, but recognizing that an examined, a life not examined isn't worth living. Right. Like he, I mean, he's been talking about that for a long time. And when people get shift in that mindset and they go, wait a minute, all right, If I'm at the point in my life where I'm just surviving, then that's one thing. But if I've got the survival thing taken care of and then now what? How do I prosper?

35:55 How do I do things that I think are valuable to me, my family and humanity? I mean those things. So there's a lot of people toiling away in the world that are just putting food on the table. And I'm not criticizing them. I'm just saying there's usually no time for anything else. It's kind of like how a lot of people aren't paying A to what's happening in the world or in politics. And I'm not criticizing them either, but they're getting up every day and they're taking care of their family and there's just no time for anything else. No, I get that. Yeah, I get that. That's why I refer to the weekends. Do you choose to watch that sports game or even on a weeknight, do you choose to watch that Netflix? Because I get it at 7:00? You want to turn your brain off. But if you said to me a moment ago I go to the gym five times, going to the gym matters. It matters because I've come to the realization that it matters. Plus my hot wife, girlfriend, whatever you want to call her. What's in the cross radio?

36:47 Is a professional bodybuilder and in the athletic business by her training. And so I mean, there's just no way even I don't like going to the gym and it's not a place for me of respite, not respite, but for her, it's a great place for her, for me, it's just a challenge, right? So, but I, I know that the feel, once I'm out of the gym, I feel fantastic, right? So, so I would say once you yeah, I would say once you design your legacy plan, you'll feel that much more confident about the future. But it's but in the moment, like I mentioned a moment ago about if there's an inciting event like one of the case studies I brought up today of a real life person is an individual had $1,000,000 practice as a physician and he didn't conform to something in his country and he lost his license.

37:35 OK, well, then he went back to Europe and he started over again, but he had to rebuild. It's kind of, you know, like the boxer and the boxing ring, you know, if you have nothing, then again, when we have so many choices, we might do nothing. When we get something taken away, then we say, OK, am I going to show up? And then how when I show up this time, how am I going to build it? Or in another example I have here, you know, it's somebody that actually did very well in life but had but came across some very traumatic circumstances where now he's rebuilding as a developer in Central America. So does somebody have to get the rug taken not from under them? No, not necessarily. And I don't know what the wake up call is. If you're talking about like, let's say, like someone in in your shoes, Maybe the wake up call is could be health related or it could be that a feeling of frustration. Well, why don't I have a plan?

38:24 I just had to talk with this woman on my podcast and she talked all about having a plan. I don't have a plan Dog on it right Or or next Gen. member have a. Plan but that's a topic for a different time, largely because I've been exposed to Hughes and a lot of people and you know, if taking it seriously quite a long time ago, maybe not in the same way that you've been able to help others, but you know, there's I'm definitely farther along than most just because I know a lot of people who aren't right. I have an interesting you brought up and said you weren't going to make it spiritual or religious. I think it's really interesting to see the effect of people becoming more except people feeling like they can be religious without being ostracized, especially the youth. And I have to credit Charlie Kirk and a lot of what he's doing with catalyzing some of that. I think, I mean I don't know any of the stats, but when I was growing up in when I was 17/18/1920 years old, nobody would ever admit that at least in my circle of people that they were serious about religion.

39:37 It was just something that was they had to do because they were born it as either Jewish or Catholic or Protestant and it was just a nuisance. But there the 17/18/20 and so some odd pages seemingly like I don't have any stats, you know, they're, they're embracing. And it doesn't matter to me whether it's Catholicism or anything else. It's just the idea that there's a divine and they accept that and that is important in their life, right? Like I think that that's huge. I, I love that people are recognizing it. Like I said, I'm not advocating any kind of dogma because I'm actually anti dogma, but I love the idea that people will recognize divinity of some type right? Well, I think they need that today. If we go back to meaning, I can't tell you the number of individuals I've sat across from at a dinner that that are affluent that have said to me, is this all that there is? Yeah.

40:36 I wanted to bring up this other point about family culture that I think like if I go back again to, and I've never spoken to anyone within the Rothschild family, I have associates that have. But I think to myself, in their family culture, they expected excellence and so they might have not watched that sports game on the weekend because they're the family culture demanded that everyone show up to that family meeting and play all out. And I think like they have activities where people have to bring a book report in terms of intellectual capital. So I think that a part of is, you know, what is that family culture? And if you if you say, well, a part of that family culture is trauma in the background, well, great. Well then congratulations. How are you going to work through that? Or is it just going to be ignored another decade?

41:21 And then I think another aspect is, you know, like where you said, if people are busy, well, if you say to a 28 year old or a 38 year old, congratulations and one week you're going to inherit 120 million, you got to start having conversations with that young person. And it's not just that, I don't think it's just that they're going to be crushed, but I think it's integration of what is their dream. If they say my dream is to go to film school, great. Well, how can you allocate some of that? So you keep growing and that what I call that lane of traffic that's meant for you and your purpose, not just that all of a sudden you get 120 million and you're going to be partying on yachts or whatever that thing is that is so tempting. Or you know, what comes with that is, you know, what comes oftentimes with money of are you going to have your same friends?

42:05 Can you tell your friends? Yeah, I know a lot of people who just don't believe they have any meaning because often their interactions they have are people. They're there. There are people in their lives that even though they might have been friends, they're tempted to tap into that wealth for their own reasons. And so you get suspect just like, you know, a woman saying, well, wait a minute, do you really want me for my boobs or my brain or both? Right. I think it's the same sort of dilemma. So the question I would pose to that individual is, will you let other people love you outside of your money? Because if they believe I'm only loved because of my ability to entertain, but now they've just put that limitation on themselves. So where's the opportunity to grow? Of course there's an opportunity to grow, but you've also got to believe in humans and humanity and human nature that it's not just people that are going to just show up to take and then people do surprise you.

43:00 Yeah, I would argue that you don't have to believe that, but it's better if you do. It is better if you do. It's better if you don't stay jaded if you come back fulzilla to religion. It's better if you see the glasses half full. Yeah, I think religion is good for people. I think that some religions, almost all the religions carry their own hypocrisy and problems that they've had. And it's was largely a control construct. Forget about whether you believe one way or the other or the story or whatever. It's kind of like the legacy media now. At some point you wanted to believe them, but now you can't. And so same thing happened with religion.

43:43 Some point you wanted to believe them, but because you know all the priests were diddling with the little altar boys, now you can't, right? Well, I think. What? But you can put that aside and say, wait a minute, there's some good in here. But you have to have, you have to examine that, right? Yeah, well, I think the divine will always be the divine. I totally agree with that. Yeah, yeah. So the messengers can fall short in their own humanity, but I think as somebody has designed a legacy and people talk about spiritual capital, that was one of the things that I wrote down. I just want to. I know I'm not supposed to read from my notes because that would be ultra boring. You can read from your notes. Yeah, well, if I if I bring up the the gentleman that lost his medical practice in one country and he luckily had a sister in Switzerland that had deep pockets that allowed him then to start over again.

44:32 But one of the things that came up is reconciling divine purpose with human suffering. You know, why did he have to go through that? Because at that moment, he was in shell shock, just like many people are when an experience comes to them. And they say, but I did everything right. Why is this happening? And the answer could simply because you were supposed to rebuild. You were supposed to do something different. I mean, I know humans are meaning making machines. One of the things that they say in the world of coaching is if you go into a room of 100 people, there's going to be 100 different opinions in the room. And I do. Yeah. And I do think that design and legacy has to be spiritual. It can't just be documents because it's one of the things I also wrote down, and this was the gentleman Apollo out of that grew up in Mexico City. What he needed was not legal structures, but identity, permission, emotional clarity, and legacy agency. And so the divine absolutely has to step in because if we don't believe in something bigger, it's kind of like what people have said to me at dinners.

45:29 Is this all that there is? Yeah, I mean, I it's like this is not about me, but for me it's really simple. I think that the universe has my back and I just go about my business and try to make smart decisions and good choices. And, you know, Joseph Campbell said it well, it's really simple. He said, you know, life is full of suffering. Embrace it. I mean, it's easy to say not so easy when you're suffering, but you know, there's, yeah, it's when you're going through it, it's a little tough. Well, I'm going to plug coaching. Better to talk to somebody than to to stay in isolation. And you brought up a moment ago individuals that feel like they have no friends.

46:16 I think a part of it is working on it. Like, again, it's like that belief of, well, people care about me and love me and like me if I didn't have money, We have to first start to believe it. But you also have to show up in a way that gives more reason to like and love and care about you. Yeah. And whatever, whatever wounds are in the past, you talk about past trauma. If there is some type of trauma in the past. Again, if I bring up this, if you're standing so close to it at age 510-1525, whatever that age is. And then now you're at a different place where you can have different interpretations of, well, what happened then, You know, did you miss something because you were clueless at that moment? But now your awareness is different, so you can connect with people differently because a part of it legacy is relationships. And if you're, if you're wounded because of something that happened back in the day, you know, age 2535, whatever it is and you carried on.

47:08 It's like sometimes people make decisions that make sense for them in their mind at age 10 or 20 or whatever it is. But then when you move on later in life, that decision making doesn't work anymore. It worked then when you were 10, but now? You like it worked when you were 10? The world has changed. The rules have changed. What we know has changed. Maybe. Yeah, so how much do you have to suffer before you finally reach out and ask for help? And asking for help is like a sounding board, something other than staying in insanity, which is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. Yeah, because then that leads to bitterness. So what, what's the, what's, what have you found is the best, not the best, the most productive?

47:53 I want to put this in less of a business context and more in the outcomes context, in the engagements that you've had. How do they best progress? Somebody realizes that they need your help because they met you or you were referred to somebody. People aren't coming out of the blue and saying, oh me, I got to, I need some help with my legacy plate. Seems to me like that's probably not happening, right? So what's the best, What is the most productive way for people to engage? And what have you found is good for you in that regard? Like people referring you in? How's that work?

48:38 Yeah, you're absolutely right. Normally there's a referral because it's kind of a tough thing to like get dropped in on someone's world if they don't have a reference point of what legacy means or what it could mean for them. So normally I work with an individual, could be once a week, or it depends on what's designed. So at the very beginning of any coaching relationship is something called a designed alliance. It's like how we're going to work together and a part of it is the timing, but another part of it is, you know, how do you want to be coached? Do you want it to be confrontational? Do you want me to challenge you? Do you want me? I mean, so that there's, you know, let's say that somebody doesn't want judgment. How do we incorporate that in into the terms of the communication style? So if I talk to them for once a week, for one year, two years or three years, and after three years, like, you know, they got to go because they got to grow.

49:21 You know, it's not for them to stand underneath my wing forever. It's it's a transfer of some skills. And then they, they go out and they, and then they're good. They've gone to, you know, legacy planning university informally. But I, I would say in those weeks, it's like the things that come up because if somebody grows and not only does it, is it like the furniture in their brain? You know, you move one piece of furniture and like four other pieces get moved. But the other thing that happens is, and I don't know if you have faces in your life because I think you're surrounded by a lot of winners that are very positive. But it's sometimes as you grow and you change, other people can go, well, I, you know, I feel like I'm losing you or you've changed. And the answer is, well, let me invite you to change with me. Let me invite you to grow with me so you're not losing me. You have to reassure other people because there is a ripple effect when you start coaching someone and you're doing it right and they're growing, it's great.

50:07 And yes, other people are going to notice because it they're not like they're not going to have necessarily the same mindset or they're not going to be doing the same things that they did a week ago. I can see that is are, are there other often times people have sources of influence that help them get clients And now I'm thinking about it in the business context, right, The trust in the states lawyers help you. Is it just sort of random? I mean, is there a good center of influence that helps you find people that you want to work with? Well, sources of business could be estate planning, attorney, wealth advisors, etcetera, Cpas, if they've got a client in front of them. And like I said before, if they haven't done the inner work and they've got a client that says, I, I just had a conversation with a family member and it was a blow up. It was a nightmare.

50:57 If and the CPA said they're going, I'm not trained on this, but I can refer you to someone or if if someone sent across from them and they they're having, you know, they're seeking advice. And again, the attorney could say, well, my thoughts are this, but here's someone who I think could better help you. And it's yeah, I think that most legacies don't fail because of the attorney didn't write a document of the four corners well enough. It's because all of this human stuff comes out like you had said, you know, if there's trauma in the past and what ends up happening, if someone doesn't heal and remedy that trauma, it leads on to the next person. And it's like when they talk about stuff rolling downhill or somebody kicking the dog because somebody doesn't want that energy, that quantum energy with within them. So they're going to push it off on someone. But are they really pushing it off? Because if it's a pattern, it's still in the room until you transform that energy and heal it. And a part of yeah.

51:53 So part of a transferring that energy is if I bring the Co active coaching tools, it's looking at it from different perspectives. If somebody has a very narrow performance based view of this world, it's about broadening it to look at it from other perspectives and then asking them, you know, what is the gift? If you look at this from different angles, you know, like you brought up something before and I, and I think I made the joke of, oh, if somebody feels objectified, we'll go straight into that. It's called process coaching. Let's process that, because if we don't process it, it's just going to stay there. Yeah. Yeah, it's like swap energy, just it, it, it not only stays there, but it, it can infect. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it sounds. I think I mentioned this to you.

52:35 There's a friend of mine that wrote a book called Solve for Happy. I don't remember this but keep going. No, he's just, but he was an engineer, so everything had to be, you know, a thought like an engineer as something else, right. And one of the things that was the most important outcomes of the book was that what you said earlier with your pen is that if you're you're not your mind, you're the observer of your mind. So if you can hover above the pen and observe what's going on, it gives you a different point of view and context than if you think you're your mind because you're not, right? It's just a tool, right?

53:21 Yeah. And and that that goes the same with the internal language of how we talk to ourselves, because a lot of times people say, Oh my gosh, look at all these resources outside of me. And they could have amazing resources outside of themselves, but they that really doesn't compare with what's called inner resourcefulness. If you can tap into the ability to upgrade like the dialogue in your head, that's more powerful as a skill that you can pass on as a part of your legacy in addition to a trust or an annuity. Yeah, Yeah, I think it's AI think you pointed it out and I often thought that it was an unutilized, I don't want to call it arrow in the quiver, but an unutilized tool because all the sort of perfunctory tools, the trust banky, all that stuff's easy.

54:09 It's not hard. It's easy stuff, right? When you have to face something that you that you've buried for 30 years or 40 years or 50 years, that's hard. Yeah, especially if I go back for a moment, we talked about trauma when you had said, what about if there's past trauma? I know individuals that let's say that there was abuse with their parents and then they get to a point where they realize it had nothing to do with them and they can just be free and they can just stop that generational curse or that pattern. I'm not saying that the hurt goes away. I'm just saying that if they can look at it and give it new meaning. Yeah, I have to. I brought it up for a reason, because I've experienced it and it's been hugely valuable to me and many others that I know.

54:52 Plant based medicine have been a huge benefit to me. Not in the context, because a lot of people still are doing it because they want to have. An accelerated experience. Or think they want an enlightened experience, but they just want to get high. That's still happening, right? But with the right counselor in the right environment and the right medicine and the right experience and the IT has been hugely valuable to me. Good, good. I can't. I can't even tell you. It's been math and many, many other people that I know. Yeah, to add to the the list of tools, there's also essential oils if you can get really good grade, good quality.

55:37 I've got a few case full of them from Egypt. Well, the OK, well, you know, pink pepper, frankincense, all of that stuff. I think like if if you bring for a moment, yeah, I think that there are things that get imprinted and the, the, the goal is to to break pattern. So like, let's say, and I'm just making this up because I don't know you. OK, let's say that your dad was stressed out about work and he got home and he took that anger out on all of the family. And then you're like, you're like you, you personalize it. And yet if we, if we turn back the clock, he was just stressed out because he was getting squeezed financially. And yet if you carry that on, you know, look, I talked about Santa in the bag of presents. It's like that luggage and you're carrying it because until you like break it apart and peel it like an onion, you know, it's like, well, it hurt. Well, of course it hurt.

56:23 But he was just stressed out. He just felt inadequate. He just felt tiny. Yeah. And and what you've just done is lifted an imprint that was incorrect and you just had to peel it back and say, wait a minute, it wasn't nothing to do with me, correct? Right. Or your siblings or the spouse. Yeah, Yeah, I think the world is a hard place, but I think it's harder when you don't have tools And when I say that the world is hard, it's hard because of inflation, it's hard because there's 10,000 plus tax codes. It's hard because we step out our front door and I go, you know, do I want all this crazy? But you can deal with the crazy if you've got some tools of like, OK, you know, I've dealt with my own crazy, so you're crazy is not going to. Yeah.

57:09 I can regulate my nervous system in front of you. In other words, yeah. What's, what's the old saying? I'm not going to let you let you live rent free in my head, right? Off with you, right? Yeah. Yeah. Super valuable. Is there anything else I go ahead? I just want you to tell people without any specifics unless you care to share them. I mean, is this a $500,000 engagement? Is this over a year period? Is it depending? How does this, you know, how do you get paid? How's that all work? You want me to talk numbers? You don't need to talk numbers. I just want to understand like is it OK, it's you know certain amount to just figure out whether I can help you and then as an ongoing monthly fee, like how do you structure it? Yeah.

58:01 It would be a six or a 12 month package. And then after that it's however they want to structure it. If it's month to month, if they want to do another six months, another 12 months and I get the money upfront because they're committed, it's not going to be a game of me convincing them. It's going to be you show up on day one and you do the work because you want this because you've got something to lose. Yeah, if you don't, you don't. Yeah, and I do think that it's interesting today, not only are things becoming exposed and more and more is coming to the surface, whether again, if it's the times you're living in, you know, I hear all this language out there that whether it's woo woo or it's the Book of Revelation, it doesn't matter to me. I just, you know, you see the you might not see the wind. You see the effects of the wind. And so I know that stuff is coming up right right now and people are at a place in their consciousness whether they can choose, but it's not stopping.

58:49 In other words, more is going to be coming up to the surface. And as we know in in today's day and age, it's coming faster and it's coming more complex. And so I think to do the inner work is one of the best investments that anybody can make because again, once they step out that front door, it's, you know, the world's going to be throwing, you know, throwing itself at at you. And, and if, especially if you're running in a family business or whatever is in front of you, better get your own stuff straight so that all the other stuff is less painful or someone can just medicate, you know, it's up to them. Yeah, medication is just most of the time just covering up a problem, so you don't really know what's going on. Well, it's avoidance and at some point you might want to solve it because it's not that scary.

59:34 You just, you just bring the problem up and yet you tackle it. Totally, totally agree. Well, I've really enjoyed this. Thank you, Angelina. It's been super to talk to you. Yeah, Really, really appreciate what you're doing. Like I said, it was it was offline. I told you. Is that like when I heard from you, I knew that this would be interesting to the audience, but more importantly, I'd be interested in talking to you about it, which I'm glad we have. Thank you for making it so easy. You're very welcome. It's my pleasure. So we'll make sure this gets out to everybody and you get a copy and share it as you as you wish. So and maybe we can do it again in a few months. That would be nice.

1:00:17 That would be lovely and thank you to Ben Ulrich for the introduction. Yes. And yes, big heads up there. Appreciate it. Shout out to Ben. Thanks. OK, Thank you everybody for joining us today. Till next time, thank you for sharing with us the only thing you can't make more of, and that's your time. Thank you, my Angelina.