Arthur's Round Table Podcast with Dr. Kirby Rosplock.

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Hello, Welcome everybody to
another episode of Arthur's

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Round Table.
Super happy to do the podcast

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with lots of interesting folks
here, including Kirby and I I

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think we've known each other for
what, 10 years on some level,

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right, for that period of time
and really interesting business.

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Yes, for sure.
Yeah, thank you for saying that.

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So this is family office related
subject matter.

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So super happy for everybody to
tune in and listen.

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And thank you for joining us
today.

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So Kirby, let's do a little like
beginning of the journey and how

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this all came about, how you
formed the two companies.

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There might even be more that I
don't know about.

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And then we can get a little bit
more into the detail of of not

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only what those companies do,
but what you're learning as

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you're in the crossroads of very
interesting people in the family

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office world.
So thanks for doing this.

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Oh, it's my pleasure and I just
feel really lucky to spend this

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time with you today.
Wow.

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My journey is complicated, like
probably many of your guests,

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but sometimes I say I won the
DNA lottery and that I was born

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into a pretty successful
enterprising family and had no

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hand right and their success.
I just sort of SAT table stakes

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and sort of learned by osmosis.
My dad worked for his pretty

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much his whole career as a
married in and it was a timber

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business that went back to the
late 1800s, so kind of old

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money.
And so, you know, I grew up sort

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of observing complicated family
business dynamics, complicated

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estate planning and trust and
wealth transfer plans.

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Of course, I didn't like know
that as a young person.

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I still think of myself as a
young person even though I'm

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really not that young anymore.
And.

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Me too, but.
I know right?

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So I I vicariously lived through
my younger self.

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So when I was growing up, I
probably wanted to get as far

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actually from the family
business, like vernacular as

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possible.
And then as I got older, college

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and Graduate School, I sort of
was trying to figure out where

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was my place.
And there wasn't a place, to be

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perfectly honest, in our family
business.

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And I was sort of like
frustrated by that, but at the

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same time, like, I'm going to
prove yourself, prove myself

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that I can do all these other
great things independently.

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But I kept coming back to like,
what is my relationship to my

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family members as owners, to my
family, as stakeholders, to this

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family legacy that I never
built, I never created.

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I can't take any ownership of.
But like, how do I own who I'm

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going to be vis A vis what I
came from?

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And I think that's a very common
like situation for families and

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family members who are trying to
understand, you know, where am I

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pointing?
And so I ended up, you know,

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doing an MBA and and degree in
psychology with Dennis Jaffe and

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went on to work through the
financial track broker dealer,

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RAA multi family office, really
thinking like I'm going to be

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something different than what I
came from.

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And interestingly enough, it all
ended up like pointing me back

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to that sort of origin of like
complexity of family, family

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dynamics, ownership structures
that go around wealth, business

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ownership.
And I in 2013 wrote the complete

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Family Office Handbook coming
out of this multi family office

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that I worked for.
And you know, honestly, I wrote

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that book not really knowing
what it would start for me, but

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it ended up starting a decade
long consulting business, Tamron

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Partners.
People say Kirby.

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Why Tamarind?
It's such a weird name.

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And I was like, well, because I
didn't want my.

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Name.
Yeah, I was going to ask you

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that.
Yeah.

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Yeah, I was like, I didn't want
my name on the business and I

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didn't know if I'd have partners
and I didn't know what that

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would look like.
But tamarind itself is a very

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strange.
Is it a fruit?

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Is it a spice?
And depending if you're from the

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east part of the country or
world or the West, you think of

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it in very different ways.
And I thought of it as a perfect

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metaphor for family office
because you've heard the, if

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you've seen one family office,
you've seen one family office.

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Well, it's true.
The interpretation of like

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tamarind means very different
things depending on where you

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sit, where you're from.
So that's how Tamarind got into

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the name Tamarind Partners.
And I didn't really.

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Know, thanks for explaining that
because I was wondering it too,

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yeah.
Yeah, I had no idea that the

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phone would start ringing.
So they wrote the handbook and

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wanted to like come at it
differently because I felt like

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so much of the education in the
early 2000s, 2010 time frame was

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only coming from commercial
sources.

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So you only learned about a
family office at, you know, at

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some level from provider that
was family office service

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delivery motivated.
And I'm like, well, what if,

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what if you could just get
unfettered information around

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what family offices are doing
the.

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Research.
Yeah, so independent and with

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nothing to sell, like there
wasn't some ulterior motive.

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And then the phone started
ringing asking, hey, could you

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help us, Kirby, We're curious.
We need some help on everything

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from how to think about setting
and starting up and do we need

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an office to.
Boy, we have some complicated

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planning considerations and how
should we be approaching and

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thinking about the critical
issues to work through

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complicated decision making to
we want to have a more robust

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governance structure.
We're not sure what that looks

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like even all the way to the
transformation of offices.

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If we've seen family offices
that have been more private

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equity motivated and driven and
you can imagine the people who

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work inside of those offices are
paid differently then say a

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lifestyle services admin office.
And even to families that get to

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this place where they're like,
boy, we need to reinvent.

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Our office really made sense for
the founder generation, but

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moving into G2 and G3 it, it
doesn't have the same gravitas.

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We need to reinvent,
reinvigorate, re inspire our

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raison d'etre, like why are we
doing this for the family to

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even offices that say, you know
what, we don't need to be

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anymore.
So winding down an office is

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probably equally as challenging
as setting one up because you

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got to have the integrity of the
services all the way until that

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office actually no longer
exists.

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So those are like some of the
crazy interesting kinds of

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families and family office
structures that I've gotten to

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work those scenarios over the
last decade.

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And then around 2016 time frame,
we had a really fascinating

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family we worked with who was
facing a lot of owner beneficial

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owner education needs.
And there was a first family and

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a second family.
And there was a need to provide

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bespoke education, but safe,
secure, like giving them more

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time to learn, not just in bite
size boardroom moments when

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education gets jammed down your
throat and then you're like, oh,

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now you have to react to the
education and make a decision.

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So that's sort of what inspired
Tamron Learning, which is the

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Edtech separate company from
Tamron Partners and to develop

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bespoke curated education that
really helps adult learners.

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Let's be clear, we don't teach
anybody's, you know, we think

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there's a lot of great
consultants and advisors who do

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that work.
At this point, our education is

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really geared towards, I would
say the 182535 even I've had

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6070 year olds go through it,
but it's really more around

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stewardship, wealth transfer.
What does it mean to be a good

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beneficiary?
How does trustees operate?

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What are their duties,
responsibilities?

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What do they do from a trust
administration standpoint to how

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does the state planning really
work to me as a layperson versus

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somebody as a drafter or an
attorney giving estate planning

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advice?
How do taxes work?

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All, all kinds of taxes, not
just estate plan like estate tax

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to income tax, but you know,
basics of foundation tax, all

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that kind of stuff to
investments, finance, working

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with advisors.
So we have course on a family

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office.
So there's just a whole broad

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scope of what I would call the
foundational things that you

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need to know if you're born in
like I was into a complicated

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family, or if you're, you're,
you grow up in a family that

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builds wealth.
And then you realize I have

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actually different choices that
I can make, maybe because I

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don't necessarily have to have a
traditional career path.

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And so you know, that's it's
really important to understand

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how you fit in.
And so back to one of my early

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story about like how did I get
started?

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It's interesting because I never
knew where I fit with our

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family.
I did, it did, interestingly

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enough, get put on our board of
directors towards the end of our

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operating companies lifetime.
And then we eventually sold

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several operating business
companies that netted the family

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a lot of liquidity.
And that actually that

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transition of my family going
through a massive liquidity

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event was also what inspired me
to write the Family Office

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Handbook.
So again, it's sort of circular

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of coming back to this desire to
educate and empower owners to be

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good responsible stewards, but
also to be like thoughtful and

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the intention and the design and
the direction that they really

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want their families to go.
Kirby, Did the incentive to

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create the learning component
come from the Next Gen. which is

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often called Next Gen.
Or was it mostly the married in

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beneficiaries or the subsequent
family members that asked for

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it?
Or was it the the founding

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family patriarch of matriarch
saying, listen, we need to to,

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to work on this and give, give
our beneficiaries, let me just

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call it that for a minute, some
guidance on what's really going

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on here and it doesn't have to
come from us.

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Really great question and I
would say yes, yes to most all

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of those contingents.
But I will tell you it was our

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vision to implement it through
technology because I don't know

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that they had a vision for how
to deploy it.

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But I think what became crystal
clear in that first case was,

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and again, this is pre COVID,
right?

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So Ed tech was not like that
exciting pre COVID?

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Nobody really.
Wanted like you could actually

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get, you can actually have a
meeting, right?

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Yeah, so.
For us, I think the motivation

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was this family was all over the
map physically, like they were

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on all these different
jurisdictions and locations.

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Then there was like the level of
learning, like the knowledge

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level was we had JDL.
LMS and accountants to we had

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people who barely, you know,
scraped through high school or

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college and then we, so we had a
huge learning curve.

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And I know that at the founder
level, there was tremendous

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urgency to make sure that family
members as owners were really

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clear on some of these
complicated pieces of estate

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planning and trust and
ownership.

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And we just didn't feel like we
could spend enough time in

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person.
To get all that communicated.

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In in a succinct form, what what
subsequently has mushroomed, I

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think from that first client is
we've learned from hundreds of

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families now how they want to
adapt what we've built to, to

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work for them.
So whether it's cousins coming

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together saying we're going to
learn together and have a spark

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plug like a learning champion
inspired from the family, or

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it's the advisor saying I don't
want to build a curriculum, but

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I want to ride shotgun and be
there to mentor and advise on

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bespoke pieces like you know,
this, this lesson is critically

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important and and you're
learning.

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About how to read a trust, I'm
going to upload your trust

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instrument so we can talk about
your actual trust and it's

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dispositive provisions.
So why was it, in the case of

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the first engagement that it was
urgent to the founder or family

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member?
So they were going through.

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Estate planning stuff and
learning, Yeah, there's a little

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delay.
Sorry about that.

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No, no, that's OK.
So there was there this urgency

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arose because they needed
actually owners to sign off on

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certain things, certain
transfers.

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And so they didn't want family
to like go into it blindly and

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unknowingly.
And I think what's interesting

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when people get to that age of
majority is that.

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It's hard, right to treat them
in the adult capacity to make

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decisions if they really have
never had experience, haven't

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had training, aren't necessarily
operators.

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And So what a lot of families
don't think about is that

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they're rising.
Jen may be put into positions

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00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,520
early in adulthood where they
don't actually have the chops,

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like they don't have any
requisite experience or training

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to be able to make pretty
sophisticated decisions.

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And I always look at it like, Oh
my gosh, you de risk your

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portfolio 'cause you talk to
your investment people about

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00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,760
hedging or like how to make sure
you're perfect protected on

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downside risk, right?
But then these family members

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don't look at their family in
the same capacity where they

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don't think about de risking
situations as as they know.

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They're aging, no.
Yeah.

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And so I, I give a lot of props
to this family because one, they

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trusted us to do something that
was really out-of-the-box at the

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time.
And then 2, they had the

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wherewithal to say we really
need to prepare all the family

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00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,520
owners regardless of how
knowledgeable, how experienced,

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00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,920
how seasoned so that when
they're signing off and like

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making these decisions and
agreeing to certain contracts

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and changes in the trust
structures.

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That they really unders, they're
informed, they're informed

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owners and and you think about
it from a liability standpoint,

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00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,000
right?
You know when you sign something

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00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,320
and you don't know what you're
signing?

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00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,320
Not good.
Yeah, yeah, there's always a

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little crack in the door, right?
Yeah, exactly.

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So how did that evolve to not
how, because we understand how,

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but what does it look like now
if somebody said to you, OK, we

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00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,839
understand what your services
are, explain that to us a little

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00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,440
bit more and how do we engage
you?

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00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,480
And, and part of my question,
Kirby, forgive me, but it's in

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the context of assuming you have
to make money at this.

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And I'm not trying to be a smart
ass, but in your business, this

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00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,599
construct for the education has
to be funded for you to do the

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work, right.
So give us a, give us a a view

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of how that works.
Sure.

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00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,160
So you know, Tamron Learning is
now five years old, which is a

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00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,600
huge milestone.
We're excited that we've

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survived COVID because honestly,
we launched as COVID started in

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00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:52,280
2020 and adoption wasn't.
I mean, people were like, oh,

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this is novel.
This is interesting.

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But everyone was like hunker
down into trying to solve for

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their immediate, you know,
concerns with what was going on.

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00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,600
So what is it?
Oh, it's saying it can't access

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00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,840
my video.
Can you see me or am I frozen?

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00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,680
I can see you, but you're not
moving, but just keep on, OK,

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00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,160
Keep on going if you can hear me
because it usually fixes itself.

273
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:29,240
OK.
So if it doesn't tell me because

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then I can always turn it on and
off.

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OK, there we go.
So what it looks like today is

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very different than what we
built for that first family.

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That first family, we really
built a bespoke system and we

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00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,680
said, how can we democratize
learning?

279
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:50,520
Because we knew that there's an
inordinate amount of expense to

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00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,560
build a a custom learning
management system for that one

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family.
So we said, is there a way to

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learn a lot from that first
family and make this accessible?

283
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And what is it that every
beneficial owner, be it of

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wealth or business or multiple
businesses, what do they need to

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00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,000
know to be prepared to be good
stewards or just to be good

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00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:22,160
activated citizens in the world?
So that first family gave us the

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00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,520
gift of inspiration, but also
the gift of saying how do we

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00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,720
bring this down?
How do we make it more

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00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,920
accessible?
And so we ended up building our

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00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:35,760
technology and we built a more
sophisticated tech stack.

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00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,560
So we included things like a
document repository.

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00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,120
A discussion board, the ability
to have an online notebook, all

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00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:49,720
these sort of features that
honestly, when you go to our big

294
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,920
box Ed tech competitors, it's
it's much more geared towards

295
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,640
like a high school or college
kind of student engagement.

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00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,960
And so ours is more accustomed
to call it the high net worth,

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00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,320
ultra high net worth sort of
tech stack.

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00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,800
And it's more sophisticated in
that, you know.

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00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:15,640
It provides a lot more
interactive and multimodal

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00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,600
learning.
So instead of like a talking

301
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,440
head with pictures of like
slideshow going by, we don't

302
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,320
have that type of learning.
We have a much more we have

303
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,160
animated case studies.
We have the ability to read or

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00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:33,280
listen to every page that you
see in your learning experience.

305
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,080
And that's, that becomes a much
richer experience for someone

306
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:43,120
going through it because if I'm
a visual learner and auditory

307
00:20:43,120 --> 00:20:47,000
learner, a kinesthetic learner,
like I'm going to be able to get

308
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:52,040
that information differently.
And so today what's really

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00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,680
markedly different is now you
can assess where you are in

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00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,520
terms of all these different
learning areas.

311
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,480
You can create a custom learning
path and sort of pick and choose

312
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,720
the courses you want to go
through and which order.

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00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,880
You can decide if you want to
have your advisor be the person

314
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,000
mentoring you through the
coursework if that's what you

315
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,040
want.
So we don't like

316
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,640
disintermediate, A banker, a
financial planner, an estate

317
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,120
planning attorney, a tax
advisor, your family office

318
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:25,200
professional.
So that makes it like, oh, the

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00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:29,400
professionals of the world can
use our system and now have a, a

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00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,680
solid curriculum that, by the
way, has no sponsorship, no ads,

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00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,640
no one pays to be in our system
and we don't pay anyone to be in

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00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,080
our system.
So then that creates a very

323
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,880
ivory snow.
There's no, there's no ulterior

324
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,440
motive.
We're not trying to sell you

325
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,440
something.
Yeah, right.

326
00:21:48,120 --> 00:21:50,240
So who pays for it at that
point?

327
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,200
Yeah.
So our primary clients are high

328
00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:01,040
net worth or ultra high net
worth families, family offices.

329
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,320
We have some professional
service firms who see this as an

330
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:09,120
adjunct to support the service
for their clients.

331
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,200
And then we do have some
institutional clients that white

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00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:18,800
label our stack, our tech stack
and then they use it as another

333
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,640
adjunct to service or another
even line of business in some

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00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,520
cases where they're saying
education is a service that we

335
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,280
provide for families.
That we work with.

336
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:38,560
And so in the spirit of having
more people know about this

337
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,400
because I knew it existed, but I
didn't know what you just told

338
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:47,240
me, which is it's a robust
system and has multiple methods

339
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,560
of accessing it, is what's the
most interesting customer for

340
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,360
you or a series of customers?
Well, they're all kind of

341
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,000
interesting.
I don't want to like say that,

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00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:06,120
but I think when when we work
with families, I mean, I had a

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00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,520
call this morning with a family
office professional who's like,

344
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,920
I'm trying to figure out how to
get to know a whole body of

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00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,320
rising Jen, call it in their 20s
and 30s.

346
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,040
And when we started talking,
she's like, Oh my gosh, this is

347
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,840
the vehicle.
Like this is the perfect way for

348
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,200
me to create a lot of stickiness
and connection with these

349
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,200
individual family members, to
meet them where they are, to

350
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,280
know the issues that they're
facing and get to the why of

351
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,680
what they need to know more
about to be, you know, either

352
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,440
more involved with the
governance of the family wealth

353
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,360
or track to be in some sort of
employment capacity.

354
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,360
Or you know what?
They don't want to have anything

355
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:50,640
to do with the family wealth or
family business.

356
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,000
They just want to be good
stewards and they want to kind

357
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,240
of know the boundaries of what
they can do and not do.

358
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,680
And this helps them be educated.
So that's a profile we see a

359
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,240
lot.
We also see advisors who say, I

360
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,320
want to be able to do more with
my clients and I'm really

361
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,040
excited to find a way to bridge
to other family members that my

362
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:17,680
client has in their ecosystem.
And they see this as a way

363
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,680
that's convenient.
It doesn't feel like.

364
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,640
My bank or my institutions
trying to sell them a product,

365
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,000
but they can.
I can partner with them in this

366
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,640
learning experience.
And it's safe and, and a lot of

367
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,200
times the grantor or the parents
feel like, you know what, this

368
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,280
is great because they don't want
XYZ institution to feel like

369
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,800
they're pitching to my kids or
my adult children.

370
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:47,560
And I need them to have some
independence on what they're

371
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,680
learning.
So then they can come back and

372
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,120
sort of judge what they want to
do or not do.

373
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,920
But then I'm not forcing them
like to follow what we've done.

374
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,480
So you know, I've seen it
empower advisors, I've seen it

375
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,400
empower rising Gen. family
members.

376
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,880
I've seen it empower
institutions to say we haven't

377
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,840
been able to build this and
we're fooling ourselves because

378
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,200
compliance gets in the way of a
lot of great ideas because they

379
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,800
say no, education is marketing.
Marketing cannot be, you know,

380
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,120
this, this and this.
And we because we sit, you know,

381
00:25:26,120 --> 00:25:29,920
outside of some of that
compliance purview, we often

382
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:34,880
times can do the right education
that's needed that doesn't get

383
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,040
approved when it's through their
exact channels.

384
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,040
So how hard is it?
I'm super curious about this.

385
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,720
You've, you've done the heavy
lifting of building it.

386
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:55,720
How hard is it as a business to
keep it robust and running and

387
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,320
up to date?
I mean, that's got to be a

388
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:06,080
pretty big task, right?
Well, it's it's a every day is a

389
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,640
new day and an Ed tech company
and I feel really blessed

390
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:17,280
because we built technology is
critical to that question.

391
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:21,360
If you don't have good tech,
it's not going to, it's not

392
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,400
going to last.
But we've been able to build a

393
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:32,200
very robust tech stack that
allows instantaneous ability to,

394
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,000
you know, impact change.
So I'll use the the big

395
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,520
beautiful bill as an example.
You know, when a lot of that got

396
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,320
pushed through, we were
immediately able to change real

397
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,800
time like the same within the
same day content in our tax

398
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,640
lessons to bring that in and be
make those changes.

399
00:26:55,640 --> 00:27:00,200
So unlike many of the Ed tech
companies that will have their

400
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:06,000
technology folks separate from,
you know, their content folks,

401
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,120
we're able to issue, spot and
change things real time because

402
00:27:10,120 --> 00:27:12,000
of the way we built our
technology.

403
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,560
And we can be extremely
responsive on, you know, client

404
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,280
service issues.
I mean, people will call us and

405
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,000
say, I think this link is
broken.

406
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,360
Yes, we do have things that
break because that's what

407
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:27,680
happens in tech companies, but
we can respond and fix things.

408
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,080
Like.
Real time.

409
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,240
And then I'll also add that
we've also, we have an AI

410
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,000
initiative that's been going on
for almost a year now.

411
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:47,360
And so we have launched AI
inside of our closed system and

412
00:27:47,360 --> 00:27:51,320
that's been a game changer for
the client experience and then

413
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,880
also for our tech and course
development.

414
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,120
So I'm, I'm just imagining what
the AI can do because it's

415
00:28:03,120 --> 00:28:05,560
pretty fascinating and pretty
amazing.

416
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,400
Let's just call it what it is.
It has challenges, but for the

417
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:16,920
most part, I'm just imagining
that somebody has a question and

418
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,680
rather than calling the customer
service desk, they can ask the

419
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,080
AI and the AI will produce an
answer That at least is

420
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,280
sufficient to get them to the
next step, right?

421
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,200
Is that pretty part part of what
you're doing?

422
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,400
Yeah.
So with our, it's called Ask

423
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,000
Steward AI and within our
platform, when you're going

424
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,240
through the courses, whichever
course you're in, we have

425
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:45,120
trained the AI to be able to
understand like all the learning

426
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,040
assets, which we have hundreds
and hundreds of, you know,

427
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,960
curated content that we have
permission to use.

428
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:59,600
And we're able to have it be
able to answer more complex

429
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,120
questions.
If you, you know, want to learn

430
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,960
more information about a topic
that's in the general category,

431
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,160
that course that you're in, it
will be able to, you know, give

432
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,520
you deeper knowledge.
It may be able to.

433
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,800
Could you restructure or reframe
that for?

434
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:23,320
Me in a high school level
vocabulary or if you're asking

435
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,080
for could you give me a
checklist of the key points on

436
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,920
what does it mean to be a good
trustee?

437
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,000
So it will be able to like learn
because we've been training it

438
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,000
to be able to respond.
And then two point O we're not

439
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,160
there yet, Arthur, Full
disclosure, but two point O will

440
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,920
be like Arthur logs in.
He is an expert himself.

441
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,240
He is an advisor.
He leads family office

442
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,160
professionals and groups.
And it will know you so that

443
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,880
when it's going through the,
you're going through the

444
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:00,080
curriculum, it will say, Arthur,
you should check out XYZ because

445
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,240
I know you.
So it'll actually be able to

446
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,600
help understand you as a persona
and be able to engage you in the

447
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,560
curriculum and say, this is
going to be really meaningful to

448
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,120
you or this might be meaningful
to your constituents.

449
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:19,480
So that's like one example of
how we're using AI, but it also

450
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,280
might be used almost like as an
instructor way.

451
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:27,560
Hey, we see you're having,
you're on this page a long time

452
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,000
or maybe you want more questions
to test your knowledge in an

453
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,920
area.
So it could also take on that

454
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,480
sort of pseudo teacher function
because we don't have a

455
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,440
traditional teacher and any of
our courses, we look to actually

456
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,760
the person, the advisor, if
they're going to take a person

457
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,280
through it, or we look at the
learner themselves as being able

458
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,680
to drive how they want to engage
with the content.

459
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,880
I think this is super cool,
really, really interesting

460
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,640
because I can just imagine,
besides what you've experienced

461
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,800
and shared with us today, how
this could apply in so many

462
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:17,480
areas.
Because there's life experience

463
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,720
is is a great teacher.
But if you have some basic

464
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:25,960
knowledge before you embark on
something, then that gives you

465
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,800
an advantage, right?
It gives it gives you an edge.

466
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,480
Really fascinating stuff, Kirby.
Yeah, and AI is also being.

467
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,800
Used OK.
No, no, no, go ahead, Go ahead.

468
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:38,680
There's just.
A little.

469
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,160
I wasn't trying to move you
along, but.

470
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,240
No, it's good.
I was going to share that.

471
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:51,520
We have AI on the back end, so
we've also trained AI to help us

472
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,880
with course development.
So you know, another thing on

473
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,400
the horizon, Arthur, is like,
you know, families come to us

474
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,480
all the time and say we want
bespoke, like you have to know

475
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:08,520
us and we want like this curated
like our information in the

476
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,280
system.
And we're like, OK, and, and we

477
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,200
explained how you can do that to
some degree today.

478
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,400
But then in the future, again,
sort of the next iteration of

479
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,280
Tamron learning is using our
course builder tool.

480
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,680
And right now we've trained the
AI to know that we have

481
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,120
treatments, We call them
treatments, like certain things

482
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,840
that become part of the learning
experience, like deep dives,

483
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:41,360
think about activities.
And so imagine that someone

484
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,160
comes to us and says we want to
create a legacy course around

485
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,080
our family.
And here are 20 assets.

486
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:53,280
Here's a video of the founder.
Here's our biography of XYZ

487
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,040
family members or the story of
the founding of the company or

488
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,400
companies.
Here's governance, here's our

489
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,160
family charter, here's our
mission.

490
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,720
Like all this information,
right?

491
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,400
Bespoke.
But now we can use that course

492
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,400
builder tool to help formulate
what would, what would your

493
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,240
bespoke family legacy course or
whatever you want to call it,

494
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,920
what would that look like?
And what would be the key

495
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,760
learning objectives and what
would be the most appropriate

496
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,760
things to be activities versus
readings versus video versus,

497
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,360
you know, gamification and
checks around your learning.

498
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,440
So that's what's really also
exciting with AI is that we're

499
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,680
pushing the boundaries of course
and course building and online

500
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,120
instructional design.
And then really in the future, I

501
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,080
envision families will be able
to want to white label it

502
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,600
because then they'll be able to
own, to some degree, custom

503
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,920
curriculum that they're
building.

504
00:33:52,480 --> 00:34:00,160
What is it fair to describe that
as a closed system LLM for the

505
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,840
family?
Correct.

506
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,840
So in that sort of situation, to
do the bespoken, the custom,

507
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,360
more than likely families will
buy their own instance, right,

508
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,400
because they'll want their own
closed system.

509
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,199
And then they would potentially
be able to like white label our

510
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,520
content if they wanted that
additional content, if they

511
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,560
wanted just a clean license of
our technology and to build

512
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,280
everything from scratch on their
own.

513
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:34,719
That's a possibility too.
And again, this is this is

514
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,639
really on the cusp of the future
of where we're headed.

515
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,280
But I think what's really
exciting about it is that, you

516
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,600
know, in the past, this
technology just didn't exist,

517
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,600
right?
And you couldn't really do this.

518
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,120
Through.
Corsair or Khan Academy or some

519
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,679
of the other Ed tech players out
there.

520
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,680
So I mean, I think this is where
I see families moving, which is

521
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,080
they want to have a way to
communicate, educate and engage

522
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,320
their family members to be part
of the evolution because the the

523
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,840
family office structures are
evolving rapidly and we see all

524
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,520
kinds of changes happening real
time.

525
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,680
But it's really hard, especially
if you have 2030 fifty, 100

526
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,440
family members.
Like how do you keep them all on

527
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,960
the same page beneficiary?
Yeah, it's wild.

528
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,280
Wow, this is super.
Can you imagine us having this

529
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,760
conversation even five years
ago?

530
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:44,240
The amount of man work hours,
personal work hours, whatever

531
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,640
that would require to create
this sort of thing in without

532
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,320
the the tech that is existing
today.

533
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,560
I mean you would have to spend
so much time configuring this

534
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,840
and building code and tech
stack.

535
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,760
Not that it's simple now, but
it's a lot easier.

536
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,960
Yeah, it's, it's definitely a
lot easier.

537
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,040
But I will tell you the devil's
in the details.

538
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,480
And the challenge that even I
think a lot of folks don't

539
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,200
realize is that.
You know it's.

540
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,680
Taken us five years to amass the
massive amount of content that

541
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,800
we have today and and also keep
it current, right, keep it

542
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:34,960
relevant and like spot on.
But I think the other challenge

543
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,480
is to really curate to this
audience.

544
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,960
I mean, we talk a lot about
financial literacy, but

545
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,440
financial literacy, if you are,
you know, say in the bottom

546
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,040
third of the pyramid towards the
middle third of the period

547
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:54,320
pyramid to the top quartile.
I mean, and, and a lot of times

548
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,520
how you think about financial
literacy looks very different.

549
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,360
If you have no savings and you
can barely make ends meet to if

550
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,360
you think about what you need
for financial literacy, if you

551
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,680
are in the top one or 10% who
has more than they might ever

552
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,680
need in a lifetime or lifetimes.
And then how to think about like

553
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,360
my relation to it and my, what
am I supposed to do with the

554
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,120
means that I have?
So I really feel blessed because

555
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,280
I think it's not been five years
that we've been been building

556
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:27,160
Tamron Learning.
It's been my lifetime, right?

557
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,000
It's been like all this
knowledge that between books and

558
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,840
white papers and meeting people
like yourself and knowing the

559
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,240
thought leadership.
Because Tamron Learning is not

560
00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:39,520
what Kirby Rossbach thinks it
is.

561
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:44,280
It's a whole Symphony of voices,
thought leaders, experts from

562
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,400
across the field.
So that's the other thing.

563
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,080
When we think about
democratizing learning, you want

564
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,280
to have the best and the
brightest voices in your system,

565
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,960
and you want to hear, hear real
examples in real cases.

566
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,680
You don't want to just hear what
one person thinks.

567
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:06,640
So that that's been another part
of my mission, yeah.

568
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:15,400
So super interesting.
I'm, I'm so glad we talked about

569
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,520
this because I didn't realize
how much was really going on

570
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,120
here.
So thank you for that.

571
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,600
Can we talk about, and I have an
agenda wanting to talk about

572
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:32,600
this subject and it's mostly
because I'm often asked for a

573
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:38,360
resource to solve a problem that
even though there are people

574
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,480
selling things and they have
highly developed skill sets to

575
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,920
assess and analyze the
situation.

576
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:51,760
There is often times people are
saying, look, I need somebody

577
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,720
where we can just write them a
check and we're going to get the

578
00:38:54,720 --> 00:39:01,640
real answer independent of what
hidden or disclosed agenda might

579
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,920
exist.
So in your consultancy work, I

580
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,080
see that as rare because I mean,
there's lots of family office

581
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,360
consultants out there, I think.
But let's talk about that

582
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,560
business model a little bit, if
that's OK with you.

583
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,280
Sounds great.
And no, I don't, I don't have

584
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,200
any kickbacks or referrals from
anyone.

585
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:27,000
So like I'm not on the take
secretly to push you to 1 broker

586
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:33,800
or one RIA.
And so it's actually been, you

587
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,080
know, sort of how foundationally
because I think as an owner,

588
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,800
like I think as a family member
first, I think as a consultant

589
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,520
because I don't want to be sold
anything myself.

590
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:48,520
And you're right, it's really
difficult to get unfettered

591
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,480
advice because most of the time
the people advising are like

592
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,960
selling something else, like
selling you an investment

593
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,440
product or an insurance product
or a financial plan.

594
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,360
And that's there's nothing wrong
with getting getting education

595
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,720
from somebody who.
I agree.

596
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,440
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, nothing wrong.

597
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,720
But to your point, it's
difficult to know what is

598
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:17,160
actually motivating the
information being conveyed.

599
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:26,000
And I, I hear you where families
will say, you know, can we just

600
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,720
get the feedback, the advice,
we'll make the decision on like

601
00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,000
what we're going to buy or what
we're going to do and how we're

602
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,080
going to proceed.
But we don't want you coming

603
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:42,600
with like an embedded product
person or you know, and so that

604
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,320
is one way that we do operate
and function.

605
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,240
And often times we'll put
together curated teams bespoke

606
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:54,160
to, you know, the RFP or the
issue at hand.

607
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,760
And I, I would, Full disclosure,
we're not like Bain or McKenzie

608
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,560
or some massive, I don't have
20,000, you know, consultants

609
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,480
on, on, on that side of the
business.

610
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,400
It's small, it's bespoke.
We, we spool up and sort of

611
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,920
figure out which kinds of
families and family office RFP

612
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,080
is.
In fact, I just declined an RFP

613
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,280
this week because I just said I
don't have the bandwidth.

614
00:41:21,240 --> 00:41:26,120
So I'm, I'm not scalable.
I can probably handle anywhere

615
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:32,160
from 36812 mandates in a year.
But as Tamron learning has

616
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,200
actually grown, I recognize that
I'm more scalable on that side

617
00:41:37,240 --> 00:41:40,920
and I can help advisors and
families go further, farther,

618
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,720
faster.
And then I can only work hands

619
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:46,200
on with like so many families at
a time.

620
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:54,520
Yeah, that totally makes sense.
The problem with this type of

621
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,600
consultancy is exactly what you
said, the capacity issue.

622
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:03,080
But let's talk a little bit
about what types of things,

623
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,760
without disclosing what they are
you've been engaged with.

624
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,600
And what types of things would
it would be if, assuming you had

625
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,200
the bandwidth for a project are
interesting to you and you could

626
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,440
produce a good work product?
Yeah.

627
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,400
So I will tell you, I've gotten
the chance to work with

628
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,960
incredibly interesting families
and family offices and I learned

629
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,240
from every single one.
So that's part of what you get

630
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:34,920
when you work with me is that I
haven't worked with one.

631
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,680
I've worked with like hundreds
of different types of offices

632
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:44,480
and, you know, from offices
with. 34500 people in them like

633
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,320
very, very large to family
offices that have one or two.

634
00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:55,840
So I think the beauty of my
background is the issues are all

635
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,680
different, some that are
motivated by the owners.

636
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,800
And I'm being directly engaged
by family themselves saying we

637
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,480
want an audit of our office.
We're not really sure how good

638
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,480
we're doing.
I've been brought in for those

639
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:17,080
situations to we're in
transition and I've been maybe

640
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,520
reached out to by a family
office executive who's saying

641
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,680
the owners are not sure where
they're going to take this next.

642
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,560
And we have our view, as you
know, executives of what to do.

643
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,880
But what have you seen other
families do?

644
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:36,240
Can you help us prepare for a
major event?

645
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,840
Like I worked for a family for
several years preparing for

646
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:45,400
trust termination and they knew
that one these mega trust

647
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,000
dynastic trust terminated.
They had a lot of things that

648
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,640
they needed to consider, like
would family members leave?

649
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:59,360
Would the PTC still have enough
gravitas to, you know, keep it

650
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,800
going?
How are we going to reinvent the

651
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,080
family office structure after
that trust termination?

652
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:11,160
How do we prepare owners to
think like owners versus trust

653
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,800
beneficiaries?
So these are sort of some of the

654
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,800
things you know, don't come to
Kirby if you want asset

655
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,520
allocation, investment product,
insurance strategies.

656
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,480
I'm, I'm connected to all those
folks, but that's not what I do.

657
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,200
I'm not going to spool up an
estate plan.

658
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,960
I'm not going to do a Monte
Carlo simulation, although we

659
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,080
have we've done that.
But I'm better served at what I

660
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:46,440
call the owner office interface
and the need for translating to

661
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,440
owners sometimes what the office
does.

662
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,320
And sometimes I'm used by the
office executives to help impart

663
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,400
to owners, you know, things that
they they can't really champion.

664
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,040
It might be perceived that
they're being too pushy or like

665
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,440
they're driving an agenda.
So I'm usually like the truth

666
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,440
teller between those two realms.
If that makes sense.

667
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,240
Yeah, totally makes sense.
The and this, this question is

668
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:21,240
driven by a current fact pattern
that I'm been asked to look at.

669
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:29,480
Have you gotten involved with
crisis management consultancy?

670
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:33,320
We're not public relations
crisis management, but holy,

671
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,920
holy cow, we've got a really big
problem here.

672
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,800
Our staff is not equipped to
look at this and we could go

673
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,680
higher outside counsel, which
we're going to have to do

674
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,160
anyway.
But how do we really position

675
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:50,760
this so the outcome is not going
to devastate the beneficiaries

676
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,280
optically or economically?
If you've been involved in all

677
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,040
that, how about that for
spooling it out?

678
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,360
Yeah, so I have been brought in
at different crisis points and

679
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,600
some it's after like let's call
it the nuclear event already

680
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,120
happened and it's sort of like
I'm.

681
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:14,600
Triaging situations.
And helping them come up with

682
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,160
like an action plan of like, how
do we look at this?

683
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,280
And no, I'm not going to do like
the PR consulting for optics to

684
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,680
the public on some kind of
snafu, but I'm going to engage

685
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,360
with them.
I'm not going to be the one

686
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:34,200
putting someone into treatment
if it's like an addiction or a

687
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,040
crisis of that magnitude.
But I have the people to call

688
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:42,000
and I know the best facilities
to go to, right?

689
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:48,640
So that, again, being in the
middle sometimes means how to

690
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:51,360
know to step up and what role I
can play and not play.

691
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,840
I don't typically like to be on
the Kirby.

692
00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:00,400
Can you come mediate moderate
like we're about to go to

693
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,720
litigation in a family, which
I've been in those situations

694
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:06,640
too, where a family are ready to
like.

695
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,640
But I've come in and I've said
if you don't cut this out and

696
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,200
you go to litigation, this is
how much you're going to blow.

697
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,040
And This is why solving it
either through an arbitrator or

698
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,760
mediator or conflict resolution
specialist is going to probably

699
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,120
preserve your corpus of wealth.
Like I've So I've been in those

700
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,960
types of situations.
I fired families who brought me

701
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:31,600
in at crisis points and saying
you're not big enough or complex

702
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,520
enough to use my time, like go
find these parties to solve

703
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,480
that, that, you know, conflict,
if it's a conflict between

704
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,800
parties.
But you know, I don't get called

705
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,480
Arthur.
I don't nobody calls me because

706
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,920
their office is awesome and
everything is right and like I

707
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:57,160
so, so truth be told, I only get
the calls when like they're

708
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,320
taking a big step in a direction
that they've never done before

709
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:07,360
and they feel uncomfortable.
They have lost integrity in

710
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,760
their structure like key people,
family members are, you know,

711
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:16,720
succeeding passed away.
So it's usually something's

712
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:20,760
dislocated and then they're
saying, can you help us think

713
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:26,480
through how to, to manage that
transition or that transaction

714
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,840
being at a wealth transfer event
and IPOA liquidity event.

715
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,160
And I, I'm also a party to bring
in to keep all the other parties

716
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,480
honest.
Because sometimes, you know, you

717
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,880
see the sharky nature of
advisors who then want to like,

718
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,960
you know, grab hold of a family
in their most yeah, their most

719
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:51,640
yeah, their most vulnerable
time.

720
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:57,640
And and usually I'm I can help
with my Spidey sense ferret out

721
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,600
the folks that aren't above
bore.

722
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,760
So that's super interesting and
helpful.

723
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,440
Thank you.
I have one last question and

724
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:18,280
it's I am often asked to help
people who have been in single

725
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:25,160
family offices mostly have a
role there to fix stuff, set up

726
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:31,320
the estate planning, fix all the
the entities, maybe put some

727
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,480
technology in place, but not so
much that, but have a highly

728
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:39,240
paid active role to tighten
everything up.

729
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:45,000
And then once things are
tightened up, they depending on

730
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,800
the nature of the single family
office, they say, well, thanks

731
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,360
very much.
We don't have anything else for

732
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,640
you to do.
See you later.

733
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:54,600
I'm purposely being dramatic
about that.

734
00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:59,280
And so people come to me and
say, I'm looking for a role in a

735
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,000
family office, single family
office and I'm going why?

736
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,320
I don't know what that career
path is.

737
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,760
Explain to me what you hope to
get out of this career path

738
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,160
wise, aside from maybe making a
bunch of money for a little

739
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,600
while.
Has your experience been the

740
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,200
same and if so, can you tell us
a little bit about what's going

741
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:23,280
on in that world on the single
family office side?

742
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,000
Multi family office is different
I think.

743
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:31,360
I I'm really glad you brought up
that reality because I don't

744
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,840
know many professionals who are
jumping into this space.

745
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,720
Understand that the setup and
startup, the actual formation

746
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:43,960
years of a family office and
getting them up and running is

747
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:50,000
not the same as operating and
maintaining and monitoring and

748
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,840
shepherding like the day-to-day
business of a family.

749
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,720
And so depending on the founder
ethos around how they think

750
00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:04,080
about the family office, your
job can feel frenetic and like

751
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,080
putting your toes to the fire
for those initial years.

752
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,280
And you might feel like you're
King of the hill or Queen of the

753
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,840
hill as you're getting
everything up and running.

754
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:20,000
But once it gets set up, it,
it's usually not as sexy or as

755
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:26,120
exciting to a lot of folks as
you know it was when you're in

756
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,800
the early stages.
The, the monitoring and the

757
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:34,960
maintenance right is if you're,
unless you're very active now

758
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,200
I'll say the founders that are
very active and they, they want

759
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:42,320
to spool up partnerships and
they're buying businesses and

760
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,320
they're doing.
Interesting kinds of investing

761
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,560
and those family office folks
tend to to last 'cause they're

762
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:53,640
they're constantly being given
different mandates.

763
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,600
But the multi generational
offices where we've got a set

764
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,160
asset allocation, we're
monitoring trusts and trust

765
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,200
administration, we're paying
taxes.

766
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,040
Those are different types of
operators than the

767
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,120
entrepreneurial setup phase.
And so I think you have to sort

768
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:16,000
of know what is your skill set
and what are you going to be

769
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,800
excited to do because they're
not the same people all the

770
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,080
time.
Very rarely actually do I see

771
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,440
the people who do the setup and
startups continue on in this

772
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:30,400
expert, generalist and maintain.
In maintenance mode, right?

773
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:35,440
So what does that mean for
people in the market and in the

774
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,560
industry?
It means there's a lot of

775
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,680
shuffling of deck chairs.
There's.

776
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,800
The first example that you gave
of like the founder saying we

777
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,440
don't need you anymore, I'm
guessing that that's a pretty

778
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,680
type AI want to drive the
business?

779
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:51,360
I'm going to run this.
I don't really need you.

780
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,680
I'll just manage my other
providers who sit around me.

781
00:52:56,240 --> 00:53:00,480
But here's the kicker with some
of those offices, when the

782
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,800
founder goes down or when the
founder wants to retire, I see

783
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,880
often times that that next
generation is like, no, that's

784
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:13,160
mom's, that's dad's office.
Like I don't really see that as

785
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:16,280
mine.
And they have a really hard time

786
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,760
transitioning the succession of
the office because they didn't

787
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,680
really think about beyond the
founder phase.

788
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:31,520
And so those really struggle to
go into G2G3 and beyond and.

789
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:35,760
Quite honestly, guess what?
The founders find it difficult

790
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:41,720
to attract the talent to do the
transition work and.

791
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:46,000
So we are, yeah, we're in a,
we're actually in a really

792
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:51,200
interesting semi crisis phase of
families in transition because

793
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,560
there's not enough qualified
people to do the work.

794
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,720
There's not enough families
who've actually on boarded their

795
00:53:57,720 --> 00:54:01,280
family members to be.
Thinking like owners of their

796
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,640
office in the future.
And so that apathy gap creates

797
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,720
attention for a lot of families
of like is.

798
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,480
Our family office relevant,
should it endure?

799
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:18,800
And I didn't really think about
the problems of my children

800
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:22,360
being owners and how to pass
this on.

801
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,040
They think about the wealth,
right?

802
00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:26,160
They think about the business
interest that they're passing

803
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,960
on, but they don't think about
the family office succession

804
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:35,880
issues.
Yeah, the the operating company

805
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:42,520
as a family office and the
option to go to a multi family

806
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:47,920
office at that juncture is not
always available or a good idea,

807
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,840
right.
Well, I mean, I've worked for a

808
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:56,840
decade inside of one of those
outfits and I will just say that

809
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:01,240
their motivations are different
and and I try to help owners

810
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:05,600
think that an MFO or multi
family office or family office

811
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:11,360
services, whatever type of firm
has to make profit.

812
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,640
Not all family offices make a
profit, right?

813
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:21,880
Many of them don't and they're
scaling the service offering and

814
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:25,480
a lot of single family offices
are doing things one time.

815
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:30,000
And so they don't necessarily
think about the efficiencies,

816
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,600
but the MFO thinks all about the
efficiencies with who they

817
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,360
attract as a client.
And they are going to like

818
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,680
operate within sort of this box
and try to have you fit into

819
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,640
their box.
Whereas the single family office

820
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:48,040
services is not that.
It's usually like, what does the

821
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,600
family want and need?
What do they want to pay for?

822
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,480
What do they think is relevant?
And they'll like bleed out over

823
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:57,520
those edges if the family says
that's important to us.

824
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:01,800
Like so you know, when people
say, oh, I'll just go to an MFO

825
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:04,520
when we don't need a family
office anymore.

826
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:08,560
And I say, OK, well, you don't
really control the time of the

827
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,960
person who's your client advisor
or service provider.

828
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,960
And they might have 25 or 50
other families like you.

829
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,800
So when you come with them with
that urgent issue, right, it may

830
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:25,200
be like 10 levels down before
they get to it because they're,

831
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,920
they're not the person that is
on your payroll that will jump

832
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,080
and do whatever you need in that
moment.

833
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,680
And, and guess what?
They also might say no.

834
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,920
They might just say we don't do
that.

835
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,440
We don't do that.
Yeah, Yeah.

836
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,360
So that is also super helpful.
This whole thing's been so much

837
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,920
fun for me.
I have to say that to you, but

838
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:54,120
also very informative.
And I would like to ask you in

839
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:58,640
the next iteration, whenever
that's stood up and ready for

840
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:03,200
the learning component of the of
the company, the term of

841
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,640
learning, can we do this again
so we can give people an update

842
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:08,400
about how that's all working
out?

843
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:12,560
Absolutely.
And I mean, I invite you, I

844
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:16,680
invite your listeners, watchers
to try it.

845
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:22,240
You know, we have a course
that's actually no, no charge.

846
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,240
We don't ask for any credit card
information.

847
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:26,920
If you just want to try it out
and see what we're talking

848
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:31,760
about, it's called stewardship.
And there's a free trial and

849
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,680
we're happy to make that
accessible.

850
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:36,840
And we're really, we're happy to
share.

851
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:42,760
There's a lot of free resources
from free assessments, free

852
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,920
links to financial literacy
assessments, education planning

853
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,760
tools and workbooks.
So, you know, at the end of the

854
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,560
day, the passion I have for that
company stems from the fact that

855
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,760
like, I just want folks to be
empowered.

856
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,040
But we'd be happy to come back
and give you an update.

857
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,600
And I, I just welcome the
feedback, even have you jump in

858
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,240
our system and say, what do you
think, Arthur?

859
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:06,920
What are we missing?
What's next?

860
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,920
Yeah, I'd love to, yeah.
So let's tell everybody how to

861
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:16,760
find it like a website or URL.
Yeah, so Tamron learning, so

862
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:20,160
it's just tamronlearning.com.
Now, if you're in Canada, we

863
00:58:20,160 --> 00:58:22,280
have a a Canadian curriculum as
well.

864
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:28,360
So that's Tamron learning.ca and
that's spelled TAMARIND and then

865
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,320
learning.
And so Tamron Partners, you can

866
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:34,720
find us@tamronpartners.com and
you'll see more about the

867
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:39,480
consulting side, but lots of
lots of great resources that are

868
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,480
free and accessible and we just
want people to feel empowered.

869
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,320
Yeah, and I'd encourage
everybody to grab the book too,

870
00:58:49,320 --> 00:58:53,320
because I have it in a box
around here somewhere because we

871
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:57,680
just moved into a new place.
But thanks for for writing that.

872
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,640
It's been super interesting to
read as well.

873
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:02,720
Really.
Well, I might, I might be

874
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,680
calling on you for some help
with the 3rd edition because

875
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,160
we're have a first and a second
edition and, and I'm sure

876
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,120
they'll be a third edition and,
and I need your insights to

877
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:16,840
Arthur.
More, more, more than happy to

878
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,480
contribute.
Hope I can make a contribution.

879
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,760
Kirby, thank you and thank you
for doing this.

880
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,320
Really, really appreciate.
It's fascinating stuff.

881
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:29,440
Thank you for making the time
and joining us today and really

882
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:31,080
appreciate it and please come
back.

883
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:33,400
Oh, thank you.
It's my pleasure.

884
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:38,160
It's really an honour.
And thank you, everybody for

885
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,000
joining us today.
If you were able to listen.

886
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:46,120
And until next time, we'll we'll
hope that you enjoyed this.

887
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,360
And then also there's lots of
other stuff on the Arthur's

888
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:51,680
round table that might be
interesting to you as well.

889
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:53,320
Thanks, everybody.
Bye.

890
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:59,240
Bye.
Yeah, Kirby, you can hang on for

891
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:00,640
a second.
That was awesome.