Inside Divorce with Family Law Attorney, Jackie Harounian

Caryn Portnoy: 0:02

Hi everyone, and welcome to the music of Life. I'm your host. Karen Portnoy, before I get into this episode, please comment, ask questions, share some of your experiences, and don't forget to subscribe. Hi everyone. I have a very special guest today. I have Jackie harunian, who's a family law attorney. She handles not just matrimonial law, but also family court. So it's all things divorce, it's prenups, it's child custody cases, it's co parenting all kinds of things. So I'll let her introduce herself and give you a little overview as well, but I just want to introduce my special guest, Jackie harunian, welcome Karen.

Jackie Harounian: 0:57

Thank you. I'm really looking forward to talking to you about family law. It's a passion of mine. I've been practicing for more than 30 years, and there's always something new and interesting when it comes to relationships and how people deal with them, I

Caryn Portnoy: 1:13

am sure. So tell me about the different types of divorces that you encounter the most frequently. What are those dynamics like? Do you know, more and

Jackie Harounian: 1:22

more we are seeing parents that are both working both have income, actually, in a lot more cases than ever before, the wife is earning more. So I'm seeing more co parenting dynamics. A lot of stigmas are falling away. It used to be that mothers were insistent on getting sole custody, and fathers had very minimal involvement. Now we're seeing very different dynamics in play. It's very much a joint custody landscape in the state of New York. That's pretty much a national thing, and you you are seeing, you know, all of those former stereotypes of the stay at home mom and the father that has to support everyone, or you know that she's supported with spousal support for years and years, a lot of laws have changed, and that's because of no fault divorce, which came to New York over 10 years ago, and it's pretty much changing Everything.

Caryn Portnoy: 2:20

If you could just explain what no fault is. I think a lot of people outside of New York aren't familiar with that.

Jackie Harounian: 2:27

Yeah, no fault is called different things all over the country, irreconcilable differences. In New York, we call it an irretrievable breakdown. It's meant to be like a no blaming, mutual acknowledgement that the marriage is not working and that there needs to be a separation or a divorce. There really is no defense to a no fault case. So if someone brings grounds for divorce, they are going to get a divorce. The Other Side, and a lot of times the other side, can feel like they don't they're not happy with no fault they want to bring claims of adultery or cruelty or abandonment, you could still bring those grounds in the state of New York, but truthfully, Karen, there is not always a lot of benefit to it. It can raise the costs of the case. Doesn't always get a different financial outcome, and a lot of it has to do with the fact that courts are recognizing that they don't really want to get involved with moral pronouncements of who's good and who's bad and who was texting who, and was it outside the marriage, and should someone be blamed or punished for that? I mean, it doesn't mean that the one of the spouses doesn't feel deep betrayal. There could be a lot of emotional pain. They could very much be a victim in the marriage, but this is where a divorce lawyer, where counseling comes in, going to a therapist or a support group, or just really dealing with those emotional issues before the legal process gets underway. Because when you bring it into the case, it can really lead to a high conflict divorce situation, which unfortunately is common,

Caryn Portnoy: 4:04

very common. Yeah, it's very common. It's common from the people I hear from on social media. It was exactly what my divorce was. I was highly emotional throughout my whole divorce, and I wish I had known to keep my emotions out of it. And it was only later in my divorce that I figured out how to cut my emotions off and compartmentalize them and come at my case more from like a business perspective, almost. You know, 100% 100% wish I knew that at the beginning, though, but you know, live and learn. You Marc,

Jackie Harounian: 4:45

yeah. I mean, this is why anyone who's in a bad marriage considering divorce or separation, you really need to prepare yourself. You have to take accountability. First of all, I'm speaking as someone who's been married over 30 years. I have four grown children. Any marriage is not perfect, right? And when there's conflict, there's conflict, there's often both sides play a role in conflict, sure, but when, when you're talking about more serious issues like infidelity or substance abuse or actual physical abuse or emotional financial control, these are things that and oftentimes, women are the victims of all of this, or having the spouse who's narcissistic and controlling and critical? Yeah, so you know what I what I have to speak to my clients about is the way the judge sees it, which can be a little harsh, and let's not forget about half the judges are women these days, and they're excellent, but they're going to ask the wife, you know, you stayed in that marriage, you had benefits financially and in other ways in that marriage, and if you were unhappy, then really it's on you. And this is a hard thing for a lot of times, for clients to hear, because we're now in an age where the stigma of divorce is falling away. A lot of people aren't even getting married in the first place, right? So when someone stays in a terrible marriage, or even an abusive marriage, it's a hard reality to learn from the judge or from their lawyer. Listen, there's going to be some consequences you face for having stayed in that marriage, and one of those things is you don't get to relitigate, the finances of the marriage. You don't get to relitigate. Who's good and who's bad, the court is focused on custody of children as a paramount issue, support of anyone who's dependent and needs support, and finally, the distribution of assets. So what you said is very true. It's very much a business that is going to be dissolved by a government, and you have to be smart in how you approach that. That's not to say that you can't raise certain issues and potentially get a better outcome. I just want to quickly tell you about a case that I handled recently in Suffolk County. I don't want to give too many details, just in case anyone's familiar with the case, but I represented the wife. The husband's income was north of a million a year, and she was a stay at home mom, and made tons of sacrifices to stay in the marriage. And in the end, it was an abusive marriage. The abuse was so extreme, his control was so extreme that I was able to negotiate her getting more than 50% of the remaining assets, Oh, wow. And she got 100% of her legal fees paid, and got an extraordinary amount of relief from the judge. She was a very sympathetic figure for everyone, but this was an extreme case, an extreme case, and I'm doing this more than 30 years. I can count on the fingers of one hand, how many times I've gotten outcomes like that. So not every woman you know, people have to be realistic about what's possible. When I say an extreme case, I'm talking the husband's income was extremely high. And of course, it makes it very easy for the court to give financial relief in a situation

Caryn Portnoy: 7:57

like that. Of course, yeah,

Jackie Harounian: 7:58

and allegations that were really significant, short of that, you're not going to get the outcomes you deserve. Sometimes in these cases,

Caryn Portnoy: 8:09

I remember in my own divorce, my attorney said to me, Look, you didn't marry a millionaire. So like, you have to be realistic about what assets and what money you can you're entitled to. I mean, in New York, yes, I was entitled to 50% based on how many years we were married. But, you know, it didn't seem fair to me on some levels, but that's, that's what I was dealing with. Yeah, oftentimes, some of the people that I hear from on social media, you know that they're embarrassed to say, I stayed with this person for 20 years, 30 years, 50 years. And you know, it's very easy for people to say, Well, why didn't you leave sooner? And especially when you're dealing with a narcissist, it's something that's slow building and slow growing, and the amount of control and the amount of chipping away at who you are, and grooming you and all of those things. It's, it's something that you don't see coming. And, I mean, I thought I was a very wise, intelligent, emotionally intelligent person, and I had confidence, and I was strong and all those things so like, that wasn't going to happen to me. And then, lo and behold, it happened to me. But you know, I stayed we were just under 20 years married by the time. I mean,

Jackie Harounian: 9:35

that's a long marriage. It really is. And your identity as a wife and as a mother, it's sort of hard wired into your brain and as your entire identity is with this person. And if the person is manipulative and abusive, it is very hard. It's called the trauma bond codependency. There's all kinds of terms in psychology that we know about now. It's hard to leave someone who's abusive. It's extremely hard and venture. Out into the unknown as a divorced person is overwhelming for most people, even people that are not dealing with ABUSE. Divorce is an overwhelming process. Untangling from a marriage, especially a long marriage, is exceedingly difficult, and this is for everyone. I've had the most amicable cases where there's plenty of money, no anger, and even those cases have a tremendous amount of emotional Fallout, because, again, you're with this person for so long, yeah, and it's hard to separate. It truly is. I mean, I want to be sort of a whistleblower in the in the divorce industry, to say that the answers to a lot of these issues are really not with a lawyer, and certainly not with a judge or going to trial. A lot of this work you need to do on your own, with a therapist or really looking inward, and it should be done before you go to a lawyer, angry and looking for justice. Because, you know, lawyers get a lot of blame, and a lot of them deserve it, quite frankly, but at our core, where we are trying to advocate for our clients, we have to be zealous in our advocacy. That's actually what lawyers are tasked to do. And when a client comes in and demands justice, we can use the court system in various ways, or subpoena records or cause embarrassment or interference in many ways, we can get orders of protection. There's a lot we can do perfectly legally, and we're obligated to do it if a client requests it. Now, sometimes that causes a lot of damage. You're literally inviting the government into your home and involving your children in a court process. I am someone that likes to first of all, I encourage mental health therapy from the very first consultation. I think it's very helpful, and I always want to present options to my client like this. There's ways to get to the end of this without, you know, blowing up the finances of your marriage and causing strain to you and your children. People don't realize how toxic sometimes it can be, and at the same time, I will say sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes you have to go the litigation route. There can be no other way to get a fair outcome. So it's both, it's understanding the risks and the benefits, understanding your options and holding yourself accountable. And a lot of times clients, men and women, you know, they kind of acquiesce to the process, and then afterwards they have a lot of regret, yeah, and

Caryn Portnoy: 12:30

well, hindsight is always 2020, so

Jackie Harounian: 12:33

Correct, exactly.

Caryn Portnoy: 12:34

I just want to jump in for a quick second, and this isn't necessarily to self promote here, but I developed a program, a mentorship program, that I'm offering now. It's called becoming whole again. And while I I'm all about therapy, I've been in therapy most of my life, and I truly agree with you that it's necessary for people who are considering divorce to enter therapy or somehow attached to a therapist that works with them, or whatever. It's crucial, yes, but at the same time, therapists are not coming from a lived experience. They're coming at it from a clinical experience. Maybe they have, you know, experience with other patients and things like that, but they themselves may not have experienced what their patients are going through. Yeah. So what I bring to the table, what I think my value is here, is that I come from lived experience. I'm very open and vulnerable and authentic, and what I share of my own situations to help somebody else, I feel very called to help fire other people. So this is my mission and purpose and passion as well. But I I think that it's really important to have some sort of support if you can't afford a therapist, if you don't find the one that fits with you, someone like me, I think would be really helpful, because I'm looking at myself as like a lighthouse that guides people back to themselves, right, which I think is really important to empower them. But anyway, I don't want to get so far into that, but I just wanted to say that there's that there is a space for someone like me that could be really helpful and hold people's hand and help support them through this process, because I wish I hadn't me when I was going through it myself. Yeah, Karen, I

Jackie Harounian: 14:26

want to, I want to reinforce what you just said, because I'm very much in line with what you just said. Before people go to a lawyer, first of all, they have to educate themselves about their rights and what a divorce is, how it's going to impact them. Of course, you need information from a lawyer, but working with someone like you, with a coach, with a guide, is invaluable. I mean, the cost is minimal compared to what a lawyer is going to cost to guide you on the same exact topics. Lawyers should give you information about the legal process, about the issue. Issues about the law, and, of course, how your facts apply to the law, but the emotional process, I think, working with someone who has been through it, who has really been in a high conflict situation, someone who can give you sort of some caution on things to avoid, I think, is absolutely the right move for a lot of people working with a mental health therapist, I think would be more important for someone who falls into a depression, is extremely anxious, cannot really cope with the situation, might even need medication. That's not That's not for everyone. I would say maybe 20% of my clients really need professional mental health treatment or therapy, but I think 100% of them could benefit from working with a guide, coach, someone who is going to help them process where to go, what the first step is, what they need to look out for. That should all happen either before you meet with a lawyer, or maybe around the same time as a compliment to getting legal advice 100% I co sign everything you just said, Oh, thank you.

Caryn Portnoy: 16:07

I mean i The cherry on the cake for me is that not only did I survive a divorce that was meant to destroy me on every possible level, I got to a point through a spiritual healing journey where I was able to thrive, and then beyond thriving, I actually transformed myself. So all self taught, all, I mean, intense work that I've done over the last four years on my inner healing. So that's what I believe is what qualifies me to help others, because I've been where they are, and I got to the other side. So if I can, they can amazing. Hey, I just want to take a minute and tell you about the divorce mentorship program that I created. It's called becoming whole again, and I created it mostly for women who were either considering divorcing their toxic spouse, or they're in the middle of a toxic divorce, or they're on the other side of a toxic divorce, at any stage that you're dealing with the emotional fallout from a horrific, toxic divorce, you know what I mean? The texts, the triggers, the berating, the harassment, the threats, all those things, I've been there, and I know what you're going through. This isn't therapy, I promise. This is real hands on support from somebody who has been where you are. I survived it, I thrived from it, and I've actually transformed from it, and along the way, I've gained so much wisdom from a spiritual healing journey that I am so happy to share with you and help you. It's not about fixing you, it's not about telling you what to do. It's about guiding you and guiding you back to yourself. There are so many people out there who need this, I promise you, I hear from them daily. Thank you for your support and thank you for listening. Okay, now back to the show.

Jackie Harounian: 18:14

Yeah, no, it's very true. I mean divorce in a way. You know, it's a trial by fire, but ultimately, it's a reset on your life, and a lot of people like you that work on themselves come out on the other side. They feel quite empowered, they feel happier. They're able to move on and really understand themselves better. So everything you said, Yes, exactly.

Caryn Portnoy: 18:37

Thank you. So I just want to switch gears for a second. And you know, you mentioned the family dynamic, about how it used to be where, you know, the husband made all the money, the wife stayed home and took care of the kids and and how now it's more 5050 responsibility. And I'm just curious if you think there's any correlation between that more equal dynamic and the the rate of divorce. Now, so interesting

Jackie Harounian: 19:07

you say that because, actually, I'm very, somewhat obsessed with reading studies and and statistics about the rate of divorce, and I speak about it frequently. They're actually saying that the millennials and the younger generations getting married now have a lower divorce rate already. Wow, and it is, and they do have a more kind of egalitarian approach to earning. They're more transparent about their finances. They marry later, and they have more money. Sometimes that might be the reason why the divorce rate is dropping, because it definitely, definitely is the divorce rate is dropping. But you know, I think divorce if you have two working parents, we all know there's not a lot of childcare options in this country or in New York State, there's a lot of stress on parents, and when you have two stressed out parents, and the cost of living is so high. Why? Inevitably, it causes, you know, resentment and anger to build up in a relationship. And so a lot of it is basic finances, also, you know, connection communication. It's hard to have that when both parents are running around and life is so stressful, financially and raising children. You know, in the in the old days, you know the 1950s marriages, probably, you know there was less stress in certain ways, because you had someone at home always caring for children, and someone who was a breadwinner. But we all know that divorce rate spiked super high once women were given rights, and they filed for divorce in record numbers in the 1970s once, women decided they don't want that 1950s marriage.

Caryn Portnoy: 20:50

So my biggest nightmare was becoming a 1950s housewife.

Jackie Harounian: 20:54

Yeah, it led to a lot of unhappiness for women, and now we see a place we're fortunate enough. I know you have a daughter. I have daughters too. It's very exciting to see that young women now have these opportunities to be fulfilled and to reach their potential. And it's their choice. You know, it's actually a choice whether even get married in the first place or even to become a mom in the first place. It's unheard of for us to even say that out loud, that you know, women have choices like never before, but it's challenging too. It creates a lot of uncertainty for young men and women about how are they going to afford to get married, how can they afford to have children and work it all out with careers in the mix? I certainly don't have all the answers. I just know that it comes down to respect, and I often say the best marriages that I see are the ones where mothers and fathers respect each other as parents and respect each other's careers and find a way to work with each other and make it all happen, but it's extremely hard. I don't I don't know which is better. I mean, you know,

Caryn Portnoy: 22:07

every marriage has conflict, as you said earlier, and nobody's perfect, but I think the willingness to repair conflict is also so crucial, you know, which goes hand in hand with communication? So, you know, those are, I think, crucial, Paramount points in a in any relationship, and especially in a marriage. So I don't know, I think that it's really hard to be married now, yeah, yeah. And I think that people who went into it blindly, people like myself, who, you know, romanticized the whole thing. I keep saying that the unhealed version of me somehow aligned with the unhealed version of him, and that's how I got together. But you know, as people kind of wake up to who they are and what they're looking for, I think the benefit of having gone through so much healing work inner work is that you learn who you are, you learn your worth and value. You kind of set your standards higher, and you have boundaries, and all these things are in place that you can now go into a new relationship, healthier and happier and more aware.

Jackie Harounian: 23:16

Totally, yeah. I mean, yeah, I agree. Everything you said is very on point.

Caryn Portnoy: 23:21

There's also a study that I heard, I forget where it was from, but basically they were saying that children thrive after divorce based on the happiness of the mother. Yeah, and, I mean, it makes perfect sense when you're a mother, because you understand that kids pick up on everything. They sense every nuance of, you know, mood and temperature in the house and things like that. And you know, I was not doing my daughter any favors by staying in a marriage that was not healthy. And by the time I filed I said to her, you know, you need to see me happy. You need to see me thriving, and she didn't understand that at the time. But, you know, I'm able to now explain to her better, now that I'm coming from a healed and healthy place, how she should look for a partner one day, or a boyfriend, or whoever it's like. You get to choose. You get to decide who has access to you, you get to decide who's worthy of you. And I want to empower her now. I don't want her to look at our marriage and think that that's what love is. Yeah. So I think it's important for a lot of parents to think about things like that as they're, you know, navigating a high conflict divorce and they have children, and you know, I do believe that kids will be okay if you're okay. Yeah, and I wasn't okay during my divorce, but I'm more than okay now. So, yeah, I'm hoping it's not too late.

Jackie Harounian: 24:58

Yeah, no, it's not too late. It's not too late. And I think there comes a moment of reckoning, maybe for yourself, or for your your your daughter, that everything worked out okay, and to hold yourself accountable, listen people's worst impulses come out during divorce. It's a very scary experience, and feeling revengeful and vindictive and angry is just normal, it's, it's, and there has to be a way for everyone to come to terms with those feelings and reach a point of forgiveness. Because the fact is, as as awful as your case was, and I'm sure it was very difficult dealing with a spouse that was narcissistic and controlling, very likely, you know, you did the best you could, and maybe even your husband just did the best he could, whatever, with whatever limitations he had. And luckily, you survived it, and now you have a daughter who's in the middle of it, and she deserves a legacy that's not filled with anger and hatred. And so everyone has to reach a point of, I'm past it, I'm not angry, I forgive we want the best for you and her future should be very bright. I mean, be reassured to know children of divorce do get married, they do have relationships. They do more prenups than the average, and they want to protect their money. That was the next thing I wanted. Yeah, yeah. Prenuptial agreements are very, very common. I mean, I can't believe how many we do in our office. It's like, at this point, I do 10 to 15 a month more and more each year, yeah. And I really enjoy doing them, and I can understand why people want to protect themselves. Getting married is scary. I would

Caryn Portnoy: 26:34

never get married again without one, that's

Jackie Harounian: 26:36

for sure. Yeah, very smart.

Caryn Portnoy: 26:39

And I also feel like, you know, when people get married the first time, I think they it's just like, well, you throw everything into the pot and you split half and and you just don't think about, you know, what's your exit strategy if you ever get divorced? How are you going to split all this stuff up? So I, you know, I think what's healthy in my mind. I mean, I don't know that this is the end all be all, but I think it's important to have your own money. They have their own money. Whatever assets you came into the relationship with, stays to you, know, each of you, and then you have, like, a joint account, or a joint pot, or whatever it is, so that you have your own individual assets and money, and then you you're building something new with someone else, so you each contribute to that. I think that's a great way to approach it, but probably not the only way I just, you know, yeah. I mean,

Jackie Harounian: 27:36

I think women, especially as they're having more earning power and are really being very successful with all kinds of things in life these days, they have to just be very comfortable with money and investing it and saving it, not just spending it, but really having a long term approach to their money. And I frequently speak on this topic, just about women's empowerment and financial empowerment. Even if you're married and happily married, you need to understand money, be familiar with it, and the next step is to communicate about it, because people have all kinds of money issues that stems from childhood, in many cases, and couples that are on the same page regarding money just do, do much better, and they don't have secrets, and they're able to Be open about it and create budgets together. And it's, it's very important, because these days, it's so easy to be secretive about money. There's no paper statement. There's no paper statements coming in the mail anymore. Everything's on your phone. You can hide things very easily. Yeah, and, and, and that's a problem, you know, it's too easy to hide, so it's better to be transparent as much as possible. And I love your idea with the separate accounts, it gives you a little bit of privacy, but also we should be open about it, so that there's no feeling of And in any event, if you save a lot of money in your bank account, you don't share it with your spouse. Guess what? When you get divorced, that's marital property. People don't people don't realize that if you're hiding money, and I see that online in Facebook groups, sometimes women say, put away money. I you know, make sure you deposit money and have a nest egg and and that's not going to work well, because you got to share that money. Yeah, your husband's spending and you're saving. It's not a good match. Everyone has to be on the same page.

Caryn Portnoy: 29:19

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I remember in years past that the number one reason for divorce was money and finances. Is that still the case? I would

Jackie Harounian: 29:32

say the number one stressor in marriage is probably finances. But what causes women to kind of reach a breaking point and say, I'm done, because 80% of divorces are filed by women. 70 to 80% that's a pretty consistent statistic. So a women will file for divorce after they've tried a lot of other things to save the relationship. They will ask for counseling. They will demand. Questions that money be saved, they will discover infidelity and be confrontational about it, and they're the ones that pull the trigger, so to speak.

Caryn Portnoy: 30:08

I think it's it. They come to a point which is true for me and so many people I hear from. It's the I'm done factor it that you tried everything else, nothing is helping, and at some point it's like the husband should be worried. When the wife stops yelling and demanding and nagging and doing all those things, when she gets quiet, that's when they need to worry, because she's planning her exit.

Jackie Harounian: 30:34

At that point, that's exactly right. It's the lack of communication. You start to not care what your spouse is doing, you don't engage in activities together. You don't care what each other is doing for the weekend, and you start to pull away. And it's almost like separating emotionally. It is part of the process a lot of times. Yes, women are planners. They will think they will have a plan, then next thing you know on their to do list is meet a divorce lawyer, and so men should be aware of that. You know, once that plan is in place, they should take their wife's concerns seriously. And I meet with men every day that are that are blindsided, that I didn't know. I didn't realize there was no time to turn this ship around, and that's it. They've lost their chance, because a lot of times, once the decision is made, there's no turning back, I would say, and people always ask me to people reconcile. I would say about 10% of the time, people will reconsider a plan to get divorced. And that means the other side took the threat of divorce seriously and said, Okay, let's fix this. So that happens 10% of the time. You know, nine out of 10 times it's it's moving ahead. The case is moving ahead, probably more than nine out of 10 times. So,

Caryn Portnoy: 31:55

you know, it's interesting after I filed for divorce, I mean, I saw tears, actual tears come down my ex's face, only after the fact. I never, in 25 years that we were together, I never once saw a tear dry, you know, fall on his face. And, you know, it's amazing, because what about all the times that I wanted to work things out? And, yeah, just Stonewall. So, yeah, you know, it's like they have this false sense of security that they just expect you're going to be there forever, and they don't feel like they have to work at anything anymore, and that's it. And and then they're blindsided, yeah?

Jackie Harounian: 32:37

So, you know, it's, it's it's hard to go back. Once the bond is broken, it's hard to go back. The best thing you can do is try to be amicable going forward, or at the very least, just reduce hostility and animosity on your own side. You can't control what the other side does, but it doesn't feel good to carry anger around.

Caryn Portnoy: 32:59

No, I believe that you have to forgive, but you know, even if it's just for yourself, for your own peace and reconciliation for yourself, that's crucial, because you need that peace. So you know, to the extent that you can forgive the person that tried to literally destroy you and render you homeless and all of those things. I mean, it's a tough nut, nut to swallow, because, you know, why would you forgive somebody who really wanted to take you out, right? But, you know, on a soul level, I feel it's necessary and spiritually and all of that. But, yeah, you know, I would

Jackie Harounian: 33:37

agree you forgive for your own sake. You forgive because it actually makes your life easier and ease your minds, because otherwise it just carry anger. I see people do it all the time. They carry it to their grave, and you know, it's, it's unfortunate, you know, it's really and but not, you know, psychology is very complicated. Some people just are not capable of letting go of anger, and it's it really short changes them throughout the rest of their life.

Caryn Portnoy: 34:04

Yeah. And plus, you know, for the kids sake too, you know, like my daughter now sees my my energy, and she sees that I'm calm all the time. I don't yell, I don't get reactive. I mean, very different during the divorce. But now, you know, she she really respond. I've never seen her smile more than I see now, yeah, and, and that's, that's from forgiveness, that's from Peace, that's from doing the work. So, you know, amazing. Yeah, not so happy to hear that so much. But I just, I want to be representative of people that I hear from that are really struggling. So is there anything else that you want to share? I mean, I know you do a lot of pro bono work, which I love. If you can say something

Jackie Harounian: 34:49

about that? Yeah, I do. I'm on a few professional boards, a co chair of the matrimonial committee for the women's Bar Association for the state of New York. So I give, donate a. Lot of my time and other women lawyers that we shape legislation in the state of New York that affects women and families, and I put a lot of time into that. I'm also very active in the Brandeis Association, which is a Jewish Bar Association that builds bridges with other bar associations of other boutique bars. It's very important to build bridges and for there to be a mutual understanding where everyone is coming from, especially because we live in such a divided world. So I try very hard to promote building bridges with other communities and having a mutual understanding. And also, I'm a breast cancer survivor, so I do donate time to some breast cancer nonprofits, including Monday's Cancer Care Foundation, which is right here on Long Island. And if anyone knows someone that needs help with wellness services, it's all at no charge. Monday's does a lot for men and women that are facing cancer, which is a growing issue of concern, because I'm not sure if you're aware, Karen, more and more young people are being diagnosed with cancer, and so it's the worst thing in the world to experience. I went through it. I survived it, and and that's a parallel with divorce. You know, as awful as divorce is, and truly it is, it is one of the most stressful experiences in life, from what I hear and what I've experienced with my clients, but it is, it is survivable, and it is going to shape your character, believe it or not, in some positive ways. And it's, like I said, a reset in your life. It's a temporary crisis, but long term, it really is going to show you who you really are and who your friends are, and what your priorities are, and you get to design your life in a new way, which can be a huge blessing for a lot of people.

Caryn Portnoy: 36:47

Yeah, it's true. It's definitely true. I love everything you just said, except that, you know, I mean obviously, that I'm glad you're a survivor and and the way that you were able to overcome that, and you know, again, shows you who you are and what you're made of. So I'm thrilled for you that you're healed and you're good and all that. And I love all of the work that you're doing. And thank you so much. Pleasure, my pleasure.

Jackie Harounian: 37:15

It's so great to meet you.

Caryn Portnoy: 37:16

Yeah, thank you. I just want to say to my listeners that you can reach Jackie at info at law, jaw, l, a, W, j, A, w.com, Jackie will be happy to give you a complimentary case review, and you could talk to her about your issues, whether you're just considering divorce, whether you're in the midst of a divorce, or even if you're on the Other Side of divorce and having custody or co parenting issues or anything like that. Her phone number is 5167738, 300 She's based in Long Island New York, and the firm is called whistleman harunian family law. I just want to thank Jackie. Thank you so much for being here for for all of your wisdom and knowledge and experience and sharing all of that with with my audience.

Jackie Harounian: 38:07

Thank you Karen. Thank you Karen. I want to appreciate what you do. I mean, I know that it's invaluable. I'm constantly hearing from people that just need more support as they go through the process. They they need help. And you know, it's important that people ask for help. Don't be shy to ask for help. It's worth the time and investment to get the proper advisors around you so that you have the support you need and hopefully get the best outcome possible when it comes to the legal and financial outcome.

Caryn Portnoy: 38:37

Exactly. All right, thank you again, and I'll talk to you soon. Please join me every Thursday for a new episode. You can reach me on my website, which is pod page, com slash the music of life. You can leave me a voicemail, a text message. You can leave your contact information if you want to be anonymous. No problem. I promise to honor that. And you can also find all of my social media platforms there as well, which is Instagram, Tiktok, Facebook and LinkedIn. Thanks again. I'll see you next week. You you.