Sept. 24, 2026

546: People Problems Solved with Carol Ring

Show Notes
Transcript

Carol talks about her book, People Problems Solved, current pressures on leaders, and much more!

Carol Ring is not an HR person who learned business. She is a business person who made culture her competitive advantage. As a culture transformation consultant, executive coach, and keynote speaker, Carol works with mid-market CEOs who are done firefighting the same problems and ready for a diagnosis that actually goes somewhere. Her proprietary Purpose-Powered Performance Framework grew out of thirty years inside organizations, including leading a major turnaround of Rogers Communications' largest, worst-performing division, a billion-dollar business. Carol is the author of IGNITE Your Culture and People Problems Solved, both built on the same premise: people problems are never just people problems; they are symptoms of the system people live in. She has been named to Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women and holds the FCPA, CPA designation along with certifications through the Barrett Values Centre, Dare to Lead, and The Leadership Challenge. Her governance experience includes board and audit committee work with healthcare and professional organizations.

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David: Welcome to The Selling Show
where we unpack, repack, and break

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down exactly how CEOs, founders,
and senior executives sell their

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ideas, point of view, and personal
brand to the people who matter most.

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This is your host, David Newman, and
you are in the right place if you

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wanna build market eminence, amplify
your influence, and attract high-value

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prospects, investors, partners,
talent, and media opportunities with

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less chasing and more confidence.

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Let's go.

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Sales organizations, sales
leaders, mid-market CEOs, they

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never have people problems.

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Nah, that's not even a thing.

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Oh, no, wait, actually, it is a
thing, and you are very lucky because

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my next guest is the awesome and
amazing Carol Ring, who has a new

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book called People Problems Solved.

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She is a leadership coach.

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She is a culture expert.

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Carol, welcome to the show.

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Carol: Hi, David.

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I'm excited to spend the next few moments
with you talking about people problems.

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David: And like I said in my half-joking
intro, "Oh, people problems? No."

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Although every leader spends probably
90% of their time on people problems.

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So I know you go into this in the
beginning of the book, but just set the,

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set the stage for us, set the landscape.

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What, what kind of
problems are you seeing?

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What kind of problems are kind of
prevalent in the kind of mid-market

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organizations that you're working with?

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What's, uh … Let's put
the patient on the table.

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Carol: Well, I think these are very
challenging times for, uh, leaders.

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Uh, you know, we've got AI
coming into the workplace.

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Companies are still trying to figure out
what to do with the return to office.

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Do we have people work remotely?

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Do we have them come back in?

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Do they come in partly?

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Do they come in all the time?

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Uh, there's a … Many industries
have talent shortages, so there's the

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war on talent, trying to attract the
best people into your organization.

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S- so, you know, just on the people side
of things, there's a lot going on, let

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alone what's going on just trying to,
you know, deliver better results overall.

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David: Yes, absolutely.

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Now, you have done something which I
think is hugely admirable and hugely

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valuable because every leader, every
mid-market CEO is saying, "Oh, my gosh.

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I can't find good people.

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I can't keep good people.

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I'm not even sure what the definition of a
good person is," and you've built a model.

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You've built a, uh, a model and a lens
through which people can do a little bit

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of self-assessment and see where they are
organizationally on some of these metrics.

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So walk us through kind of the three
big areas, and then we can drill a

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little bit further into each one.

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Carol: Sure.

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Um, most leaders are out there fussing
with employee engagement, and I happen

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to believe that employee engagement
is just the tip of the iceberg.

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It's a very, uh, individual
metric, uh, symptom, and that

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what they're really looking for
is, uh, their w- purpose-powered

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performance is what we call it.

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And as you said, we've got three
key levers, which is what I believe

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people, uh, and leaders are really
looking for, which they're looking

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for passionate productivity.

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They're looking for better clarity
around their workplace culture, and

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they're also looking to make a better
financial impact with the resources

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that they have, whether it's a bottom
line or if you're a not-for-profit.

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You know, you're trying to
squeeze every single dollar out

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David: So Carol, walk us through,
walk us through what areas…

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I love that, by the way.

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So I think in the book it's, uh, you talk
about passionate productivity, culture,

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clarity, and then financial impact.

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Um, there are three big areas, like if
we were to draw this on a napkin, there

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are three big areas that you work on in
your, uh, coaching and consulting, uh,

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work with leaders and mid-market CEOs.

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Define those three areas and
just give us a little bit of a

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flavor of what each one is about.

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Carol: Right.

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So if you want to achieve those
business results that we were just

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talking a- about, the first, uh,
area is direction, and this is where

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we wanna move the organization from
just being a, a financial instrument

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into one that's actually making,
uh, uh, has financial impact.

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And what I mean by that is we quite often
hear this from the B Corp, uh, philosophy,

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which is moving from being the best
in the world to being the best for the

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world, and I think that's an important
direction for leaders to be taking.

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The second one is a framework.

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When we talk about workplace culture,
it's very nebulous in most people's minds.

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It's, you know, it's that fuzzy thing
that's out there, and I don't really

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know how to measure it, and so, you
know, maybe we just won't touch it.

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I… For sure I don't
think there's an ROI in it.

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Yeah, I hear that all the time
from my clients- Yeah … whe-

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when we s- when we're talking.

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And, uh, the framework, we
have a framework behind it that

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w- actually measures culture.

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We have an assessment, of course.

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Uh, and, uh, it's not engagement.

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It's culture-oriented.

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But we give you that structure, that
framework to actually, um, measure your

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culture and build an action plan for it.

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And then the third big area that we
w- uh, work in is called alignment

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because even though we talk about
people problems, a lot of these

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people problems are not people.

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They're alignment issues.

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We've got all kinds of things going
on in our organizations, and they're

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focused on different aspects of the
organization, and it's not until they

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become aligned that they become powerful.

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So things like your- the technology
that you use, policies, your actually

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physical workplace, all of those can
contribute to your workplace culture.

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And so people issues aside, we
need to get those lined up and

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all firing in the right direction.

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David: Let's unpack just a little bit
around What, what are some of the gaps?

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Like when you work with a mid-market
organization, uh, some of the presenting

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problems that the CEO or the owner or
the president might, might talk about,

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uh, what are some of those symptomatic
things that are red flags that one

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or more of these things are missing?

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Carol: Yeah, well, one of the, uh, key
items that often comes up is, "I've got

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this great strategic plan, but I can
never seem to get any traction with it.

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It… And it's always so
much heavy lifting to get it.

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People are resistant to change.

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It's, it's just so frustrating
that I can't, uh, make

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progress on my strategic plan."

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The other thing that comes to
mind is a lot of leaders have

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done the customer first thing.

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They've done lean, uh, process
re-engineering, where you try to

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cut out all the little excess fat
in your processes, and now they're

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trying to figure out what's next.

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What's the next management
tool that I can, can use?

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And so culture can quite
often respond to that.

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I mean, the obvious ones are high
turnover, if you've got that going on,

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uh, if you're struggling to attract
people to come to your workplace, uh,

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uh, those are sort of the more tactical,
uh, symptoms that, uh, CEOs might see.

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David: Yeah.

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No, that's great.

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Uh, and I'm sure…

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You know, it's funny, when people read
the first 30 or 40 pages of the book,

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and again, the book is just totally
fantastic, and it's got a fantastic

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title that kind of just says what
it is, uh, People Problems Solved.

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But when you read the first 30, 40 pages,
I can't think of any mid-market CEO, VP of

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sales, uh, leader in a large department,
uh, I can't think of anyone that would

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not immediately recognize themselves.

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Like immediately recog-
oh, my God, we have that.

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Holy smokes.

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You know, she's talking about Brenda,
she's talking about Bob, she's

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talking about these guys over here.

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Um, and so the, the recognition that,
number one, this is a common problem.

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You're not alone.

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And number two, this is fixable.

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Because a lot of times people say, "Oh,
well, you know, we're just dysfunctional.

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This is just the way it is in our
industry." Uh, if you work on a loading

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dock, there's always gonna be fist fights.

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If you work on a oil rig, there's
always gonna be bar brawls.

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It's like, well, no.

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No, not, not necessarily . So when you
go in, and this might be a little bit,

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uh, tricky question to answer, but you
know, that's kind of how we have some fun.

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Uh, sometimes you're talking to a leader,
and within the very first few minutes you

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realize, okay, I think I get a flavor of
what's going on, and I think the person

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I'm talking to is part of the problem.

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Now, they're obviously self-aware
because they're talking to you, but

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how do you enroll the leaders when
some of the leadership things are

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broken How do you get the leaders to be
vulnerable enough to say, "You know what?

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Not only does my team need to
do better, I need to do better"?

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Carol: I think generally speaking,
the clients that come and work

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with me, as you pointed out, are
self-aware, and they're curious to

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find out what's really going on in the
organization, what's holding it back.

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And I think to some degree they
are open to learning more about

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leadership And how to grow their
leadership capabilities to begin with.

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I think they're already on that,
on that fine line of, "Yeah, what

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we're doing is pretty good, and yeah,
I think we could do better." And

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that probably includes me as well.

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And I think the way we, we
present the, the consulting with

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them is as a business advisor.

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You know, I have worked in the corporate
world, so this is not theory for me.

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Yeah.

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This, this is real-world stuff for me.

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So I know what they're, they faced,
and the challenges that go on in trying

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to get that bottom line, uh, working
and producing results, uh, that, that

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are constantly under a CEO's pressure.

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So I've been there, I understand it,
and I think that really helps me in

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having conversations with them about
where w- we, they need to go, not only

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as the leader of the organization, but
as the leader of the people around them.

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David: All right, hang on, we
gotta back up the truck here.

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Beep, beep, beep, beep.

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Do you have a copy of my
new book, Market Eminence?

00:11:28.441 --> 00:11:29.031
No?

00:11:29.321 --> 00:11:30.642
Well, you can grab that.

00:11:30.731 --> 00:11:36.631
It's available in audio, paperback,
and Kindle at marketeminence.com.

00:11:36.641 --> 00:11:37.662
That's right, my friends,

00:11:39.391 --> 00:11:40.262
Carol: marketeminence.com.

00:11:40.382 --> 00:11:43.151
Go check it out, and then come
right back to this episode.

00:11:43.882 --> 00:11:48.531
David: Well, walk us through, I know
that there are three areas in each of

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these categories, so there's three areas
of, uh, direction that you call drivers.

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There's nine drivers in the model.

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So there's three drivers behind
getting your direction squared away.

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There's three drivers around
framework, and there's three

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drivers around alignment.

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Just kinda walk us through what those
are and how, you know, uh, sort of

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in, in layman's terms, what kinds of
things you work on during a typical

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engagement around each of those.

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And why don't we start with direction?

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Carol: Yeah, sure, direction.

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So as you mentioned, there's
three pieces to direction.

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The first one is societal significance,
and I think this is really important

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in, for younger generations that
are coming into the workplace, too.

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They wanna feel that
they're making an impact.

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But baby boomers are not, uh, you
know, absolved from that either.

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They, they, they wanna feel that they're
adding value to the organization.

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And many leaders have done the
mission, vision work, but we're

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talking about purpose here.

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Why does your organization exist?

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And I think you'd agree that even
when you're doing brand positioning,

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that kind of purpose statement
is, is very, very powerful.

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So that's usually an area, a gap that
we see in many, many organizations.

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The second piece is about, uh,
actually defining the culture that

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you wanna have in the organization.

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We call that one meaningful values.

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So think about your strategic plan
Think about what you need your people

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to be doing and how you need them
to be, uh, behaving or acting to

00:13:23.438 --> 00:13:25.528
actually deliver that strategic plan.

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So, you know, Disney, you know, they
have, they have values like innovation and

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creativity and, and customer experience,
'cause that's what they're all about.

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If you look at a nuclear energy
plant, it's about safety.

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It's about, um, uh,
compliance, things like that.

00:13:44.308 --> 00:13:48.878
You don't really want somebody innovating
with the nuclear maintenance schedule.

00:13:49.727 --> 00:13:49.897
Exactly.

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So, so you really wanna think about
the culture you wanna have that will

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actually deliver on your strategic
initiatives, and ones that you as a leader

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can authentically, uh, um, deliver on.

00:14:03.437 --> 00:14:03.457
Yeah.

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Because at this point, what you're gonna
define is something that's probably

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aspirational and not what actually
exists, although we do typically ta-

00:14:11.238 --> 00:14:14.977
tap into what's the current secret
sauce that's making you successful.

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David: Yeah.

00:14:15.878 --> 00:14:21.298
Carol: And then the third piece,
uh, of the, the direction lever is,

00:14:21.557 --> 00:14:27.580
uh, unwavering commitment And, you
know, culture can sometimes, culture

00:14:27.580 --> 00:14:30.680
transformation can sometimes be a project.

00:14:31.530 --> 00:14:36.340
And so we do all this fun work of defining
our values, and we get little trinkets

00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:41.649
to put on the desks, and then it kinda
fades away, and I call that fun and done.

00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:45.429
But what you really need is
leadership, uh, commitment.

00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:51.659
And, uh, the story there i-
one is one that's many people

00:14:51.660 --> 00:14:52.620
are probably familiar of.

00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:56.529
It comes from your hometown of
Philadelphia, but the Starbucks story,

00:14:56.560 --> 00:15:00.629
when two African Americans came into
the store, they were waiting for

00:15:00.629 --> 00:15:06.090
a third, the store manager decided
to call the police, uh, that they

00:15:06.090 --> 00:15:10.590
were trespassing, and there was this
whole uproar moment that went viral.

00:15:11.660 --> 00:15:15.320
Starbucks could very easily have done
the whole fallback thing that said, "Oh,

00:15:15.320 --> 00:15:19.809
well, that store manager wasn't, you
know, performing as we would've expected

00:15:19.809 --> 00:15:23.639
her to. We've either fired her or we
put her through some extra training."

00:15:24.300 --> 00:15:28.580
But Starbucks, who is very committed to
their culture, that's not what they did.

00:15:29.140 --> 00:15:30.289
They stopped the train.

00:15:30.669 --> 00:15:35.059
They realized that they had an issue
within the organization around r- uh,

00:15:35.309 --> 00:15:37.640
bias, or in this case, racial bias.

00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:40.949
They built training that
they made available to out-

00:15:41.299 --> 00:15:43.180
to o- other organizations.

00:15:43.199 --> 00:15:45.990
It was out there on YouTube
for a while for sure.

00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:50.449
And then they closed all the stores
down and put everybody through, uh,

00:15:50.479 --> 00:15:56.539
that training because their commitment,
uh, is to create these, uh, great

00:15:56.549 --> 00:16:01.870
neighborhoods, and they, they were
committed to maintaining that culture

00:16:02.229 --> 00:16:06.659
that would support their, their
purpose of creating these community,

00:16:06.669 --> 00:16:08.319
neighborhoods of, of community.

00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:09.129
David: Yeah.

00:16:09.169 --> 00:16:12.019
Carol: So, you know, there's…
And I think that's the

00:16:12.019 --> 00:16:13.050
real tipping point, right?

00:16:13.050 --> 00:16:17.619
When crisis comes, i- are you
going to actually stand up

00:16:17.619 --> 00:16:19.530
for, for your culture in there?

00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:23.509
I mean, the, the flip side of that
story, if you wanna hear the flip

00:16:23.509 --> 00:16:28.710
side is, is BP and the, and the
Horizon Gulf rig that blew up, right?

00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:33.629
And I don't know how many millions and
millions of barrels of oil went into

00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:36.879
the Gulf, and it was an environmental
nightmare among everything else.

00:16:37.540 --> 00:16:42.710
And they started off… I mean, they claim
to be environmentally, uh, sensitive and,

00:16:42.749 --> 00:16:46.380
and protecting the environment, but they
started off by blaming the contractors on

00:16:46.380 --> 00:16:48.929
the rig, then they blamed the employees.

00:16:49.230 --> 00:16:53.599
It took a long time before they
took personal responsibility and,

00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.679
and nevermind the stock, stock
price issues that went on there.

00:16:58.079 --> 00:17:03.230
The branding issue, the reputational
issue that came because they didn't

00:17:03.230 --> 00:17:06.419
stand behind it, uh, was quite damaging.

00:17:07.534 --> 00:17:08.864
David: Yes, absolutely.

00:17:09.094 --> 00:17:13.924
Well, it's funny that you put, you
put, um, both the success stories

00:17:14.354 --> 00:17:20.054
and the cautionary tales into, into
the book because sometimes, you know,

00:17:20.064 --> 00:17:24.244
we, we can see the model to follow.

00:17:24.434 --> 00:17:30.944
We sometimes don't recognize the model not
to follow, or the things where you're sort

00:17:30.944 --> 00:17:38.264
of blinded to the, um, the perhaps the
very human, very gullible, very fallible,

00:17:38.573 --> 00:17:41.054
uh, human behaviors, the weaknesses.

00:17:41.484 --> 00:17:47.604
But those, those moments, those crucible
moments, if you falter in those crucible

00:17:47.604 --> 00:17:53.783
moments, it destroys everything in your
reputation, sort of in the world at large.

00:17:53.804 --> 00:17:57.913
And so you might think, "Oh, that was
just one comment," or, "That was just one

00:17:57.933 --> 00:18:03.963
day," or, "That was just a bad incident,"
but the impact of that lasts for years.

00:18:03.983 --> 00:18:05.733
Years, if not decades.

00:18:06.253 --> 00:18:11.293
Carol: Yeah, I mean, so the, you know,
that's a huge external risk that leaders

00:18:11.304 --> 00:18:16.473
face, and the internal risk is that if
you're not consistent, if you only follow

00:18:16.473 --> 00:18:21.224
the culture and promote the culture from
time to time, and you let other things

00:18:21.233 --> 00:18:26.103
go, then after a while people go, "Oh,
well there's no walking the talk here.

00:18:26.144 --> 00:18:29.104
This is only important sometimes." Right.

00:18:29.104 --> 00:18:29.603
You know?

00:18:29.644 --> 00:18:32.883
And, uh, I guess I'll just have to try
and figure out when it's important.

00:18:33.523 --> 00:18:34.103
David: Yes.

00:18:34.956 --> 00:18:36.196
Well, and it's funny that you say this.

00:18:36.196 --> 00:18:37.846
There are these transformational moments.

00:18:37.846 --> 00:18:41.985
I remember, um, oh gosh, I even
forget what country it was in,

00:18:41.985 --> 00:18:45.946
but somewhere in Europe, there
was this huge volcanic explosion,

00:18:45.956 --> 00:18:47.856
somewhere in Scandinavia, I think.

00:18:48.245 --> 00:18:54.635
And KLM Airlines stepped up
with 24-hour customer service.

00:18:54.645 --> 00:18:57.686
They went above and beyond, rebooking.

00:18:57.695 --> 00:19:02.665
Even if your air- even if you weren't
flying KLM, you could call the KLM hotline

00:19:03.005 --> 00:19:07.245
to get your traffic rerouted, and they
just were the heroes of the industry.

00:19:08.196 --> 00:19:13.836
And they actually kept that going for
years, and when the, they asked the

00:19:13.845 --> 00:19:18.466
CEO, "Well, once the crisis passed, why
didn't you just shut all that down?"

00:19:19.115 --> 00:19:23.556
He says, "Well, unlike a lot of
airlines, you know, who, you know,

00:19:23.586 --> 00:19:27.245
customer service is all automated, and
there's an impression that they don't

00:19:27.245 --> 00:19:33.735
care, uh, we figure, well, KLM is going
to step up as the hero in the story.

00:19:34.045 --> 00:19:38.495
Uh, two weeks later, it would be very
difficult for us to go back." "It'd be

00:19:38.495 --> 00:19:41.436
very difficult for KLM to suck again."

00:19:41.436 --> 00:19:43.005
I think he said something like that.

00:19:43.695 --> 00:19:45.376
Perhaps a little different in vocabulary.

00:19:45.835 --> 00:19:51.135
But he basically said, "Once we assumed
that leadership position as being the good

00:19:51.165 --> 00:19:56.195
guys in the industry, we sort of wanted to
keep it." And it was, that was sort of a

00:19:56.216 --> 00:20:03.285
alignment and a, uh, an identity shift for
them that they did not wanna go back to

00:20:03.286 --> 00:20:05.745
just another European airline that sucks.

00:20:06.345 --> 00:20:06.775
Carol: Right.

00:20:06.856 --> 00:20:07.505
Exactly.

00:20:07.505 --> 00:20:11.535
And so I think that's, you know,
that's part of the exercise of defining

00:20:12.676 --> 00:20:17.985
what kind of behaviors, what kind
of culture you wanna have behind the

00:20:17.985 --> 00:20:23.606
organization, and that you, you want
people to be able to, to deliver on-

00:20:23.615 --> 00:20:28.575
Yeah … every day so that the customers
get that, that consistent experience.

00:20:28.625 --> 00:20:32.685
And that's really the, the, the, the
issue around culture is trying to

00:20:32.685 --> 00:20:36.735
figure out what are the barriers that
are exist in our organization that are

00:20:36.735 --> 00:20:42.295
preventing our people from doing the, the
best job that, that they possibly can?

00:20:42.914 --> 00:20:43.234
David: Right.

00:20:43.294 --> 00:20:48.324
And that actually is a great
transition to, like, ne- ne- nebulous,

00:20:48.394 --> 00:20:53.084
maybe it's this, maybe it's that,
maybe it's having ping pong tables

00:20:53.084 --> 00:20:56.094
and free pizza on Fridays, right?

00:20:56.104 --> 00:21:01.373
All these nebulous definitions to
having a framework where your culture is

00:21:01.414 --> 00:21:04.863
actually measurable on objective criteria.

00:21:04.863 --> 00:21:08.814
So Carol, walk us through the
three drivers of framework.

00:21:09.074 --> 00:21:14.224
Carol: The first aspect of the
framework piece is the actual

00:21:14.224 --> 00:21:16.414
assessment, so unvarnished discovery.

00:21:16.783 --> 00:21:22.143
It's a values-based assessment tool
that we use, so there's no translation

00:21:22.144 --> 00:21:27.363
on management styles or communication
styles or other tools that are out

00:21:27.363 --> 00:21:31.734
there that people sometimes use,
uh, when they talk about culture.

00:21:32.493 --> 00:21:36.223
And we'll just simply ask your…
We'll ask the employees to give us,

00:21:36.254 --> 00:21:40.793
out of a big list of values, give us
10 that describe the organization, and

00:21:40.804 --> 00:21:42.413
give us 10 that you'd like to have.

00:21:42.943 --> 00:21:45.274
And I got this tool from Richard Barrett.

00:21:45.274 --> 00:21:47.644
He's a thought guru in this area.

00:21:47.644 --> 00:21:52.124
I'm certified in it, been using it
for, ugh, over a decade now, at least.

00:21:52.464 --> 00:21:55.313
Used it myself, actually, in
the corporate world as well.

00:21:56.063 --> 00:21:59.884
And I'll tell you, when you get
those numbers back, baby , and you

00:21:59.894 --> 00:22:03.903
find out what's really going on
in your organization, it's a real

00:22:03.903 --> 00:22:06.923
eye-opener, uh, for, for culture.

00:22:07.033 --> 00:22:11.624
And there's an actual measurement tool in
there called cultural entropy that you can

00:22:11.624 --> 00:22:13.923
use to measure progress as you go along.

00:22:13.923 --> 00:22:18.704
So it- it's very, uh, quantitative,
which- Yeah … I think a

00:22:18.704 --> 00:22:20.203
lot of leaders appreciate.

00:22:20.254 --> 00:22:22.383
You know, we have financial reports.

00:22:22.413 --> 00:22:26.003
Why not get a culture report-
Yeah … with, with equal, uh,

00:22:26.043 --> 00:22:27.903
equal depth and discipline to it?

00:22:28.773 --> 00:22:33.364
But what's really great about that tool
is that it opens the door for the next

00:22:33.413 --> 00:22:35.553
piece, which is powerful conversations.

00:22:36.083 --> 00:22:42.333
Because when things like confusion show
up on your, on your list, or silos or

00:22:42.333 --> 00:22:46.824
bureaucracy, the next question is, "Well,
what's that really all mean? What's that

00:22:46.824 --> 00:22:49.793
about?" And so you can ask the questions.

00:22:49.793 --> 00:22:53.593
You know, when we talk about confusion,
when you, when you selected confusion,

00:22:53.944 --> 00:22:55.793
how does that show up in your workplace?

00:22:56.343 --> 00:22:56.363
Yeah.

00:22:56.523 --> 00:22:59.973
And then you can really find
out what's going on and what's,

00:23:00.093 --> 00:23:01.794
what's holding people back.

00:23:02.383 --> 00:23:04.013
So for example, I had a client.

00:23:04.023 --> 00:23:06.693
He had been in the job
for about 18 months.

00:23:07.233 --> 00:23:12.843
He came in, and he, he, uh,
clarified all the job descriptions.

00:23:12.953 --> 00:23:16.863
He standardized some of the policies
that ha- w- you know, had gotten

00:23:16.864 --> 00:23:20.094
out of whack across the various
regions of the organizations.

00:23:20.474 --> 00:23:24.584
He started up a newsletter from head
office to help bring more clarity.

00:23:25.273 --> 00:23:28.023
And yet when he did the culture
assessment, confusion was one of

00:23:28.023 --> 00:23:32.542
the top values that everybody picked
Well, he was confused himself.

00:23:32.832 --> 00:23:33.672
How could this be?

00:23:33.912 --> 00:23:37.482
I just spent all this time
trying to provide clarity to my

00:23:37.482 --> 00:23:39.322
people, and they're confused?

00:23:40.142 --> 00:23:44.222
So when he actually went out and
asked them about that specific, uh,

00:23:44.322 --> 00:23:48.362
experience, what he found out was
that, A, he was driving too much

00:23:48.362 --> 00:23:49.952
change through the organization.

00:23:50.342 --> 00:23:54.242
It was coming down the pipe just
faster than they could absorb.

00:23:55.051 --> 00:23:59.412
The second piece was his leadership
was rolling it out different speeds.

00:23:59.821 --> 00:24:02.351
So the West Coast jumped on it right away.

00:24:02.871 --> 00:24:06.501
Central, not so much, but the
front line was all talking, and now

00:24:06.501 --> 00:24:09.572
they were confused because people
were doing things differently.

00:24:10.062 --> 00:24:11.701
So now I'm… We're more confused.

00:24:11.722 --> 00:24:13.332
Which way are we supposed to be doing it?

00:24:13.772 --> 00:24:16.991
And thirdly, his own leadership
team wasn't that skilled

00:24:16.991 --> 00:24:18.051
up in change management.

00:24:18.362 --> 00:24:20.371
They didn't actually know
how to roll out change.

00:24:20.851 --> 00:24:28.721
So imagine the, uh, the way to fix that
issue, having had those conversations,

00:24:29.151 --> 00:24:32.912
was very different than where you may
have started be- at the beginning.

00:24:33.522 --> 00:24:37.391
And it was so powerful him, uh,
to… for him, and the… when he

00:24:37.402 --> 00:24:42.981
addressed that one issue alone, the
results were a- amazing going on.

00:24:42.991 --> 00:24:43.011
Yeah.

00:24:43.491 --> 00:24:48.491
And the third piece is that a, a
blueprint for action, accelerated action.

00:24:49.021 --> 00:24:52.561
Because great, you get all the data, you
get all the feedback, but if you don't do

00:24:52.561 --> 00:24:55.082
anything with it, nothing's gonna change.

00:24:55.521 --> 00:25:00.542
So there has to be, uh, uh, an
actual plan, an action plan, 'cause

00:25:00.542 --> 00:25:04.301
that's when change happens, is
when you actually action something.

00:25:04.932 --> 00:25:09.581
David: It's like wanting to lose
weight versus move more, eat less.

00:25:09.682 --> 00:25:09.702
Yeah.

00:25:09.722 --> 00:25:14.792
Unless you move more and eat less, this
weight loss dream ain't gonna happen.

00:25:15.411 --> 00:25:15.881
Carol: Right.

00:25:16.011 --> 00:25:16.311
Right.

00:25:16.321 --> 00:25:17.971
It's just aspirational.

00:25:18.381 --> 00:25:23.351
David: So let's go back just for a
quick second to the conversations,

00:25:23.351 --> 00:25:29.586
because I know that's probably an
area where People are afraid, you

00:25:29.586 --> 00:25:33.305
know, we have regular conversations
about the tactical, practical things.

00:25:33.755 --> 00:25:39.126
So communicating projects and deadlines
and updates and just the regular

00:25:39.146 --> 00:25:41.235
office communication that we all do.

00:25:41.906 --> 00:25:46.416
But having the conversation
about the conversation, right?

00:25:46.835 --> 00:25:48.745
How, how do we communicate?

00:25:49.025 --> 00:25:52.115
Like your example, is
someone over-communicating?

00:25:52.116 --> 00:25:56.255
Are they putting confusion and
noise out into the culture?

00:25:56.475 --> 00:25:58.335
Is someone under-communicating?

00:25:58.345 --> 00:25:59.575
Are there silos?

00:25:59.585 --> 00:26:00.775
Are there turf wars?

00:26:00.775 --> 00:26:01.956
Are there politics?

00:26:01.956 --> 00:26:07.495
Are there personality conflicts that keep
people or departments from communicating

00:26:07.496 --> 00:26:09.616
freely with and to each other?

00:26:10.686 --> 00:26:16.896
That sounds, uh, not that the rest
sounds easy, but this part sounds

00:26:16.896 --> 00:26:23.035
particularly challenging because now we're
talking about person to person, right?

00:26:23.045 --> 00:26:28.505
Now we're talking about David has to talk
to Carol, or Carol has to talk to Pete,

00:26:28.835 --> 00:26:34.305
or Pete has to talk to Jennifer about
something that they're not comfortable

00:26:34.305 --> 00:26:36.356
with or that needs to be improved.

00:26:37.075 --> 00:26:43.016
When you look at that with your clients,
do they naturally know how to have these

00:26:43.016 --> 00:26:48.946
conversations or what, what do they need
to do to be better at these kinds of

00:26:48.956 --> 00:26:52.895
the conversation about the conversation
or kind of the meta conversation?

00:26:54.475 --> 00:26:57.265
Carol: Yeah, I think there are
different levels of maturity within,

00:26:57.295 --> 00:27:01.415
within leadership teams around
difficult conversations, perhaps.

00:27:02.295 --> 00:27:09.780
I think what we're all trying to get to
is to a common goal, however, and Some of

00:27:09.780 --> 00:27:16.474
these conversations do surface difficult
areas that you have to deal with.

00:27:16.534 --> 00:27:22.274
You know, the siloed one is, is
an example of, well, y- you know,

00:27:22.274 --> 00:27:23.614
sales sits there and goes…

00:27:23.814 --> 00:27:26.483
gets pressure because the re-
the revenues aren't coming in.

00:27:26.484 --> 00:27:29.814
Well, sales points the finger over at
marketing to say that- Totally … they

00:27:29.814 --> 00:27:33.564
aren't, they aren't doing their job, so
we're, the leads we're getting are lousy.

00:27:33.823 --> 00:27:33.843
Yeah.

00:27:33.843 --> 00:27:36.894
Marketing points the finger over at
product development, because, you

00:27:36.894 --> 00:27:40.874
know, if the product was better, then
customers would actually buy the product.

00:27:40.874 --> 00:27:44.754
And you get this, you know,
circular conversation going on,

00:27:44.754 --> 00:27:49.794
a- a- about, you know, who's not
delivering- Uh-huh … on it.

00:27:49.823 --> 00:27:53.963
And I think when we go back into these
conversations and we start to uncover

00:27:54.333 --> 00:28:00.184
whether it's bureaucracy, well, maybe
product development just, y- y- you know,

00:28:00.184 --> 00:28:05.593
it takes too long to get things approved
in order to, to get the product upscaled.

00:28:06.453 --> 00:28:06.603
Yeah.

00:28:06.974 --> 00:28:11.483
Uh, o- okay, well, you know, how do we
have that, conversations around that?

00:28:12.093 --> 00:28:15.813
Uh, how do we bring marketing
and sales together, uh, better?

00:28:15.853 --> 00:28:20.303
Are we rewarding them in a wa-
matter that, that doesn't drive

00:28:20.304 --> 00:28:22.583
collaboration between the two?

00:28:22.593 --> 00:28:22.613
Yeah.

00:28:22.624 --> 00:28:26.284
Are we, are we rewarding them in a
way that pits them against each other?

00:28:27.084 --> 00:28:29.644
Uh- Yeah … you know, those are the
types of things that are going on in the

00:28:29.644 --> 00:28:33.793
background, to your point that, earlier,
that aren't really people problems.

00:28:34.383 --> 00:28:39.714
They're process problems or policies
that are going on behind the scenes

00:28:40.183 --> 00:28:45.264
that are causing these difficult,
uh, collaborations, that are

00:28:45.364 --> 00:28:47.253
causing the difficult conversations.

00:28:47.673 --> 00:28:47.973
David: Right.

00:28:47.993 --> 00:28:50.963
Carol: So let's dig down
into what's really going on.

00:28:51.663 --> 00:28:52.554
David: Yes, for sure.

00:28:52.823 --> 00:28:57.193
And then final question before I
move on to alignment is, uh, the

00:28:57.193 --> 00:28:59.333
action piece, the action plan.

00:28:59.933 --> 00:29:03.874
Totally love the action plan, 'cause
you're talking to Mr. Do It, of

00:29:03.874 --> 00:29:06.334
course, so it all comes down to action.

00:29:06.773 --> 00:29:13.863
But sometimes a leader, mid-market CEO,
sales leader, whoever it may be, they

00:29:14.103 --> 00:29:16.643
have a difficult time gaining a buy-in.

00:29:16.654 --> 00:29:21.343
They have a difficult time overcoming
resistance to the old way that we

00:29:21.344 --> 00:29:24.663
used to do things or the old way
that we used to not do things,

00:29:24.663 --> 00:29:26.224
is probably even more dangerous.

00:29:26.773 --> 00:29:34.433
How does a leader gain buy-in and overcome
some of that resistance to change?

00:29:35.638 --> 00:29:37.918
Carol: I think there's a
couple of, uh, areas here.

00:29:37.918 --> 00:29:40.578
One is, first of all, let's
not try to boil the ocean.

00:29:41.148 --> 00:29:45.178
You're gonna get lots of great ideas
about things that can be improved in

00:29:45.178 --> 00:29:51.597
your organization, and, uh, trying to
do 100 of them in the first 60 days

00:29:51.707 --> 00:29:53.628
is not gonna get you any traction.

00:29:53.998 --> 00:29:54.197
David: Yeah.

00:29:54.248 --> 00:30:00.248
Carol: And it's, it's, it can lead, uh,
very quickly to the fad, fads thing.

00:30:00.258 --> 00:30:04.207
You know, this is the newest shiny e-
object coming out of the CEO's office.

00:30:04.547 --> 00:30:04.847
David: Yeah.

00:30:04.897 --> 00:30:09.807
Carol: So you need to make it an action
plan that, uh, is truly manageable,

00:30:10.208 --> 00:30:13.967
that stretches along a, a continuum.

00:30:13.977 --> 00:30:17.957
You know, y- culture is not a
transformation overnight- No … but

00:30:17.958 --> 00:30:19.648
neither does it take three years.

00:30:20.217 --> 00:30:25.407
So it's about, you know, doing the
same risk analysis and prioritization

00:30:25.407 --> 00:30:28.237
that you do with any, uh, big project.

00:30:28.717 --> 00:30:28.737
Yeah.

00:30:28.758 --> 00:30:35.227
And, uh, lean into that, and move
it along at a, at a good, nice

00:30:35.258 --> 00:30:39.337
consistent pace so people understand
that you are serious about this.

00:30:40.237 --> 00:30:44.817
And I also think that, uh, obviously
change management skills are critical.

00:30:45.348 --> 00:30:45.447
Yeah.

00:30:45.458 --> 00:30:48.907
People wanna know why you're making
the change, what's in it for them,

00:30:48.918 --> 00:30:52.347
what kind of training are you gonna
give them, what kind of re-rec-

00:30:52.367 --> 00:30:56.778
recognition are you gonna do after the
fact to solidify the change and the

00:30:56.778 --> 00:30:58.738
behavior or the change in the process.

00:30:59.318 --> 00:31:02.867
But s- you know, small wins
gain, uh, good traction.

00:31:02.867 --> 00:31:03.418
Yes.

00:31:03.418 --> 00:31:06.247
And quite often you're,
what you're changing is what

00:31:06.248 --> 00:31:07.597
the people have asked for.

00:31:07.857 --> 00:31:10.197
So quite frankly, they're already there.

00:31:10.257 --> 00:31:11.797
They wanna go down the path.

00:31:12.177 --> 00:31:14.287
You perhaps have been holding them back.

00:31:15.310 --> 00:31:19.810
David: That is such a good point, that
people do not resist their own ideas.

00:31:20.429 --> 00:31:24.440
So if we've done a good job sort of
harvesting some of these changes and

00:31:24.449 --> 00:31:28.960
some of these improvements, people are
gonna be more, more on board than not.

00:31:30.159 --> 00:31:32.950
Holy smokes, so much
value in this episode.

00:31:32.950 --> 00:31:36.800
Listen, if you are loving what you're
hearing, feel free to download,

00:31:36.810 --> 00:31:42.819
subscribe, tell a friend, leave a
review on Apple Podcasts or wherever

00:31:42.869 --> 00:31:45.069
you're listening to The Selling Show.

00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:47.040
Now, back to the interview.

00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:52.899
Well, let's move on, Carol, to
alignment, and, um, part of the model

00:31:52.899 --> 00:31:59.559
here is we're moving from discrete
or individual to united, meaning that

00:31:59.560 --> 00:32:01.299
we're all rowing in the same direction.

00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.969
Talk a little bit about what that
is, and then we can dig into the

00:32:04.970 --> 00:32:07.099
three specific drivers under that.

00:32:07.099 --> 00:32:10.669
But give us a picture of what's
from discrete to united really mean.

00:32:12.649 --> 00:32:18.729
Carol: Yeah, I think that quite often
in organizations, we make decisions that

00:32:18.740 --> 00:32:21.379
lead us, uh, through discrete places.

00:32:21.429 --> 00:32:25.090
So we might decide we're gonna introduce
a new technology, but we don't really

00:32:25.100 --> 00:32:28.299
think about how that technology's gonna
affect the culture of our organization.

00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:32.570
Or we start writing policies, and we don't
really think about where that's going.

00:32:32.949 --> 00:32:36.260
We hire somebody, uh,
into our organization.

00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:37.929
"Oh, this person's top-notch.

00:32:38.229 --> 00:32:42.519
Th- they, they've got, they've got a great
track record." When, when they come in,

00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.589
we find out that the things that they
value don't necessarily sync up with

00:32:46.589 --> 00:32:51.369
what the organization values, and then we
can't figure out why they can't deliver

00:32:52.139 --> 00:32:55.389
the way we expected them to, 'cause they
were, like, they were this all-star.

00:32:55.889 --> 00:32:59.359
So there's all kinds of things
going on in our organizations that

00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:04.429
don't… And they, and we don't
see them as affecting the culture.

00:33:04.859 --> 00:33:08.059
They j- they, we've been running
it this way for many, many years,

00:33:08.060 --> 00:33:12.779
possibly even decades, without really
understanding the impact that they

00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:14.079
might be having on the culture.

00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:19.629
So what we wanna do is try to bring a
lens to it to say, "Okay, do we really

00:33:19.629 --> 00:33:24.609
have things that sh- uh, are consistent
so that if we say collaboration-

00:33:25.486 --> 00:33:29.686
These other elements beyond people
are actually supporting collaboration.

00:33:30.456 --> 00:33:30.846
David: Yeah.

00:33:30.926 --> 00:33:31.896
Really, really good.

00:33:32.036 --> 00:33:36.246
Well, let's dig in, let's dig into the
three drivers that will get us there.

00:33:36.986 --> 00:33:40.966
Carol: So the first one is premier
talent, and this is where you want to

00:33:40.966 --> 00:33:44.296
have the best talent in your organization.

00:33:44.306 --> 00:33:49.716
Everybody's looking for that, and we
have lots of opportunities to bring

00:33:49.716 --> 00:33:54.035
people into the organization that
will not only support the culture,

00:33:54.095 --> 00:33:56.175
but actually enhance your culture.

00:33:56.496 --> 00:34:02.415
Every hiring opportunity, eh, every
promotion opportunity is an opportunity

00:34:02.445 --> 00:34:07.575
to enhance your culture and move it where
you want it to go, to where you wanna go.

00:34:07.576 --> 00:34:11.296
So if you're looking for more
collaboration, then hire people

00:34:11.296 --> 00:34:13.215
who are good collaborators.

00:34:13.605 --> 00:34:13.945
Mm-hmm.

00:34:13.966 --> 00:34:14.956
That will get you there.

00:34:15.025 --> 00:34:18.916
For example, when I was trying to
turn around a division in my corporate

00:34:18.916 --> 00:34:22.176
world, uh, we had silo empires.

00:34:22.455 --> 00:34:27.376
I had a couple of pi- people in there who,
over the years, had built up their own

00:34:27.376 --> 00:34:32.416
little empires and were not willing to
collaborate acro- a- across the regions.

00:34:33.015 --> 00:34:37.106
But I knew that, uh, collaboration
and teamwork was key to the success

00:34:37.106 --> 00:34:42.525
of the organization, and so eventually
I had to change them out because they

00:34:42.526 --> 00:34:47.206
were not in, not, not only were they
not enhancing the culture, they were

00:34:47.225 --> 00:34:52.665
actually driving it o- in the opposite
direction to where we needed to be.

00:34:53.265 --> 00:34:58.056
So, you know, really assessing your,
your talent and saying, who is in

00:34:58.056 --> 00:35:02.865
that top right box of doing the work,
delivering the results, and doing

00:35:02.865 --> 00:35:07.745
it well, and versus the bottom box,
which is not only do they not deliver

00:35:07.745 --> 00:35:09.125
results, but they don't really do it.

00:35:09.135 --> 00:35:12.675
I- I- you know, they're not,
they don't show up to work in a

00:35:12.675 --> 00:35:14.036
way that we would like them to.

00:35:14.416 --> 00:35:14.436
Yeah.

00:35:14.895 --> 00:35:19.215
The most dangerous group are the
group that deliver the results, but

00:35:19.225 --> 00:35:23.035
stomp over everybody- Oh, yeah … on
their way to doing it, right?

00:35:23.645 --> 00:35:27.255
Um, we sometimes call those
the culture vultures, but in

00:35:27.255 --> 00:35:29.296
reality, they are not bad people.

00:35:29.695 --> 00:35:32.255
They are just round pegs in square holes.

00:35:33.134 --> 00:35:37.433
So what they value isn't necessarily line
up with what the organization values.

00:35:37.854 --> 00:35:41.493
You know, if you're a real creative
person and you want lots of innovation,

00:35:42.444 --> 00:35:46.504
the banking industry might not be
where, a good fit for you, right?

00:35:46.504 --> 00:35:51.203
David: We're going to free you up to
go find a round hole for your round

00:35:51.243 --> 00:35:53.693
peg, because the square bank is not it.

00:35:53.894 --> 00:35:54.324
Carol: Yeah.

00:35:55.154 --> 00:35:59.104
So, you know, there's a, a lot of work
to be done around the talent in your

00:35:59.104 --> 00:36:04.183
organization to get them aligned with the,
the behaviors that y- that you wanna have.

00:36:04.193 --> 00:36:04.213
Yeah.

00:36:04.453 --> 00:36:09.094
And as I said, every hiring opportunity
is an opportunity to enhance your culture.

00:36:09.643 --> 00:36:09.873
David: For sure.

00:36:09.933 --> 00:36:13.463
Carol: The middle piece is about
intense integration, and this

00:36:13.463 --> 00:36:16.063
is what I was talking to you
about earlier, about policies and

00:36:16.064 --> 00:36:18.343
technology and physical workplaces.

00:36:18.733 --> 00:36:18.993
David: Yeah.

00:36:19.134 --> 00:36:20.894
Carol: Policies, oh, my gosh, yes.

00:36:21.384 --> 00:36:24.264
We are a family-oriented organization.

00:36:24.613 --> 00:36:29.113
Ooh, but the policies all read that
you must do this, thou shall do

00:36:29.113 --> 00:36:31.144
this, the consequence of doing that.

00:36:31.503 --> 00:36:34.913
I don't know, sounds like angry
father talking to children.

00:36:35.483 --> 00:36:35.533
Right.

00:36:35.593 --> 00:36:39.864
Not really the family dynamic that
I'm sure you were trying to get at-

00:36:39.873 --> 00:36:41.493
Yeah … when you wrote those policies.

00:36:42.003 --> 00:36:46.683
So there can be a lot of work
around policies and guidelines

00:36:47.543 --> 00:36:52.323
that, uh, could better align with
what you're trying to achieve.

00:36:53.354 --> 00:36:56.053
The physical workplace
is another great example.

00:36:56.203 --> 00:37:00.864
I remember I was going for a
board, to a board meeting at an

00:37:00.873 --> 00:37:05.493
organization, I think they were, uh,
they were in con- television content

00:37:05.924 --> 00:37:08.084
and, and a lot around kids shows.

00:37:08.723 --> 00:37:12.673
Uh, and so when you walked into
that building, it was about six

00:37:12.674 --> 00:37:14.553
stories, it was on the waterfront.

00:37:14.753 --> 00:37:17.793
From the front of the building, you
could see right through to the glass

00:37:17.793 --> 00:37:19.703
at the back and see the waterfront.

00:37:19.733 --> 00:37:26.553
Very open concept, lots of color, a small
information desk where you checked in.

00:37:26.753 --> 00:37:30.063
You got an ambassador who walked you up
to the boardroom, showed you where the

00:37:30.064 --> 00:37:31.843
washrooms were, where the water was.

00:37:32.373 --> 00:37:36.043
Um, just, just very, uh, you know,
you could feel the vibe, right?

00:37:36.043 --> 00:37:39.283
You could feel the creativity going
on in that kind of a building.

00:37:40.163 --> 00:37:44.783
I went back to my office, where we
had a security desk and a s- you

00:37:44.784 --> 00:37:47.063
know, gates for swiping your cards.

00:37:47.564 --> 00:37:50.433
If y- if you were a visitor,
you had to practically sign

00:37:50.433 --> 00:37:51.963
away your firstborn to get in.

00:37:52.513 --> 00:37:52.543
David: Yeah.

00:37:52.693 --> 00:37:55.134
Carol: And then, you know,
swipe card to get in, swipe

00:37:55.134 --> 00:37:56.593
card to get up to the elevator.

00:37:56.623 --> 00:38:00.623
You got off the floor, there were
a million cubicles, wa- same color.

00:38:01.053 --> 00:38:05.603
Beige cubicles, cream walls, right?

00:38:05.693 --> 00:38:11.573
And it, so not that one was good and
one was bad, but they were different.

00:38:11.583 --> 00:38:11.603
Yeah.

00:38:11.983 --> 00:38:14.723
And they just spoke to the
culture of the organization.

00:38:15.263 --> 00:38:20.546
So I can tell immediately when I go into
an office building What, what the vibe is

00:38:20.546 --> 00:38:25.326
gonna be like, what the culture's gonna
be like as a result of the workplace,

00:38:25.616 --> 00:38:29.116
the way it's been set up- Mm-hmm … uh,
for it, and the language that's on

00:38:29.116 --> 00:38:31.816
the signs and, and things like that.

00:38:32.356 --> 00:38:36.675
So there are, um, you know,
then technology, right?

00:38:36.676 --> 00:38:38.856
What- does your technology enable people?

00:38:39.176 --> 00:38:44.275
Again, our corporate organization talked
about a big, uh, about innovation,

00:38:44.316 --> 00:38:46.075
a big story around innovation.

00:38:46.836 --> 00:38:52.575
We were very innovative in the services
that we delivered to our customers, not

00:38:52.575 --> 00:38:56.035
so much with the internal technologies
that we had to use to deliver

00:38:56.036 --> 00:38:57.705
that innovation to the customers.

00:38:58.295 --> 00:39:04.846
So innovation became kind of a two,
two-sided sword for our employees.

00:39:04.886 --> 00:39:08.005
Yes, we see the innovation
we're doing to customers, but

00:39:08.615 --> 00:39:10.305
not so much here for employees.

00:39:10.316 --> 00:39:13.555
So what do we mean when we
talk about innovation here?

00:39:13.566 --> 00:39:13.586
Yeah.

00:39:14.016 --> 00:39:18.935
So it's those kinds of aspects that
you want to… that are not people

00:39:18.955 --> 00:39:22.496
related, but that we wanna try
to bring into alignment with the

00:39:22.496 --> 00:39:24.076
culture you're trying to achieve.

00:39:24.376 --> 00:39:28.466
David: And when I, when I was reading what
you wrote about intense integration, and

00:39:28.466 --> 00:39:34.135
even listening to you just now, the phrase
that came to my mind is everything counts.

00:39:34.626 --> 00:39:35.556
Carol: Absolutely.

00:39:35.605 --> 00:39:36.245
Absolutely.

00:39:37.075 --> 00:39:39.565
You know, it's the feeling
when you come in the building.

00:39:39.575 --> 00:39:41.915
It's the activities that are going on.

00:39:41.935 --> 00:39:47.226
It's, it- it's how, how easy or
difficult it is to do your job.

00:39:47.255 --> 00:39:52.055
And so when you think about all the things
that touches you during the course of a

00:39:52.056 --> 00:39:57.875
day, it's all adding up and compounding
into the entire employee experience.

00:39:58.145 --> 00:40:01.026
Well- And customer experience,
by the way Oh, for sure

00:40:03.355 --> 00:40:03.890
… David: customer experience,
by the way, too.

00:40:03.890 --> 00:40:04.325
They can totally feel it.

00:40:04.325 --> 00:40:04.848
I totally agree with you, right.

00:40:04.848 --> 00:40:08.715
It's, it's, it's right up there for
everyone to see and feel and experience.

00:40:09.266 --> 00:40:11.966
Um, let's talk about the
last one, under alignment.

00:40:12.245 --> 00:40:15.515
Carol: This is really where the
rubber meets the road, so what you're

00:40:15.516 --> 00:40:17.775
saying and what you're actually doing.

00:40:18.266 --> 00:40:24.005
Because how employees get rewarded
really drives their behaviors.

00:40:25.175 --> 00:40:33.255
So I, I ran a call center organization
as part of our, our, our business

00:40:33.255 --> 00:40:38.226
unit, and typically we talk about
customer first all the time.

00:40:38.335 --> 00:40:43.346
We want you to resolve that customer's
issue the first time on the first call.

00:40:43.665 --> 00:40:46.456
That's the kind of experience we
wanna deliver for our customers.

00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:50.250
However, we reward them on
their average handle time.

00:40:51.080 --> 00:40:52.130
So how fast?

00:40:52.130 --> 00:40:54.610
You know, we want you done in 121 seconds.

00:40:55.970 --> 00:40:58.320
So now the c- the
employee's very confused.

00:40:58.420 --> 00:41:02.509
Am I supposed to try to solve the
problem, or do I wanna get my bonus check?

00:41:03.439 --> 00:41:07.699
Do I… Which w- You're really p-
putting me in a difficult spot here.

00:41:08.339 --> 00:41:11.639
And so that's just not aligned
with what you're trying to drive.

00:41:11.790 --> 00:41:11.810
No.

00:41:11.970 --> 00:41:16.360
So let's change that recognition, that
reward and recognition piece, so that you

00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:21.960
drive, uh, the right behaviors that will
ultimately drive the right culture and

00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:23.960
drive the, the right business results.

00:41:24.339 --> 00:41:26.350
So that's an example of recognition.

00:41:26.819 --> 00:41:27.039
Yes.

00:41:27.040 --> 00:41:31.859
The other piece around recognition
that a lot of people miss is they

00:41:31.859 --> 00:41:33.929
make tr- recognition transactional.

00:41:34.429 --> 00:41:37.589
Employee of the month, service awards.

00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.079
They don't really tie it to the
behaviors that are going on, and

00:41:43.139 --> 00:41:45.699
employees see it as transactional.

00:41:45.709 --> 00:41:45.729
Yeah.

00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:51.399
It doesn't really show up in a very
meaningful way, as opposed to the

00:41:51.399 --> 00:41:56.659
opportunity to reinforce great,
uh, work by employees by saying,

00:41:56.659 --> 00:42:02.150
"Hey, Susan, I just wanna thank you
for the excellent way you solved

00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.110
that customer's issue last month.

00:42:04.589 --> 00:42:10.279
It was, um, it, it was really a, a
dedication to customer service, and that's

00:42:10.280 --> 00:42:15.110
what we're looking for, and we wanna
recognize and reward you for that specific

00:42:15.130 --> 00:42:20.210
action that you took there." So when you
tie your rewards and your recognitions

00:42:20.240 --> 00:42:25.240
to behaviors, you know, that's the
carrot, not the stick kind of, uh- Yes

00:42:25.310 --> 00:42:25.830
mantra.

00:42:26.850 --> 00:42:27.640
David: Amazing.

00:42:28.530 --> 00:42:32.690
Well, I've got two final questions
as we're landing the plane here.

00:42:32.719 --> 00:42:36.720
The final, final question is, where
can people get in touch and stay in

00:42:36.720 --> 00:42:38.809
touch with more Carol Ring brilliance?

00:42:38.839 --> 00:42:43.309
But before we get there, zooming out
to everything we just talked about, the

00:42:43.310 --> 00:42:48.539
entire sort of people problem solved
framework, if folks were to take one

00:42:48.579 --> 00:42:56.219
key concept from our conversation
around leadership, culture, their own

00:42:56.259 --> 00:43:00.149
personal leadership effectiveness,
what would you hope that one

00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:02.679
overarching takeaway concept should be?

00:43:03.509 --> 00:43:07.060
Carol: I, my personal mission on this
earth is to bring more joy into the

00:43:07.060 --> 00:43:12.669
world, and I've chosen the workplace
as my, my sort of niche of trying

00:43:12.669 --> 00:43:14.600
to bring joy into the workplace.

00:43:15.060 --> 00:43:20.469
The saddest thing for me is to see
people just be passive passengers just

00:43:20.509 --> 00:43:23.629
going through their workday day by day.

00:43:23.640 --> 00:43:31.459
I think we have an obligation as leaders
to bring more joy into people's lives.

00:43:31.669 --> 00:43:36.079
And, and the way we are, are, do
our business, it, it doesn't have

00:43:36.080 --> 00:43:40.359
to be a choice between business
results and joyful workplaces.

00:43:40.769 --> 00:43:44.689
The two go hand-in-hand together,
and I would really, uh, hope that

00:43:44.689 --> 00:43:50.639
leaders would take away that they
can do both very successfully, and

00:43:50.649 --> 00:43:52.439
in fact, one will feed the other.

00:43:53.439 --> 00:43:54.939
David: I totally love that.

00:43:54.979 --> 00:44:01.109
Well, if people want to take the next step
to making that happen in their company

00:44:01.549 --> 00:44:08.039
as a mid-market CEO, as an organizational
leader, where can people go to get

00:44:08.040 --> 00:44:09.999
connected to more Carol Ring brilliance?

00:44:09.999 --> 00:44:12.330
Where can they get the book, websites?

00:44:12.339 --> 00:44:14.220
What links should go in the show notes?

00:44:15.540 --> 00:44:18.649
Carol: So the website is carolring.ca.

00:44:18.719 --> 00:44:21.729
It's that simple, carolring.ca.

00:44:21.739 --> 00:44:23.049
Same thing on LinkedIn.

00:44:23.179 --> 00:44:25.649
I'm @CarolRing on, on LinkedIn.

00:44:25.659 --> 00:44:28.929
You can c- I would welcome people
to connect with me on LinkedIn.

00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:33.999
The book is available on Amazon,
uh, in many marketplaces.

00:44:34.099 --> 00:44:38.500
It is actually an international
bestseller, and so you can just,

00:44:38.510 --> 00:44:42.979
just Google, uh, or search on
Amazon for People Problem Solved.

00:44:43.830 --> 00:44:48.129
David: And wherever fine
books and e-books are sold.

00:44:48.369 --> 00:44:49.489
That's how we say it.

00:44:49.589 --> 00:44:52.749
Wherever fine books and e-books are sold.

00:44:53.089 --> 00:44:54.989
Well, Carol Ring, you are a rock star.

00:44:55.019 --> 00:44:56.049
I appreciate you.

00:44:56.059 --> 00:44:58.009
Thank you for sharing
your brilliance with us.

00:44:58.659 --> 00:44:59.469
Carol: Thank you, David.

00:44:59.479 --> 00:45:00.219
It's been fun.

00:45:05.062 --> 00:45:07.662
David: Wraps up another
episode of The Selling Show.

00:45:07.662 --> 00:45:11.262
Hey, tell you what, if you like
us, rate us and review us on Apple

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546: People Problems Solved with Carol Ring

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