Feb. 2, 2024
Solana's Jupiter Exchange and the Decentralized Future with Founder Meow
This week on The Index, host Alex Kehaya welcomes Meow, the Founder of Jupiter, the best exchange in DeFi on Solana. Meow shares Jupiter's blueprint for Web 3 and the decentralized future in this exclusive interview. Learn about Jupiter's full-stack ecosystem play, which is focused on advancing the metaverse.
Host - Alex Kehaya
Producer - Shawn Nova
Chapters
00:04 - Future of Web3 and Decentralized Systems
08:10 - Emotional Strength and Hard Work Importance
17:40 - Excitement for Future of Crypto
Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome to the Index Podcast hosted by Alex Kahaya.
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Plug in as we explore new frontiers with Web3 and the decentralized future.
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Hey everyone and welcome to the Index, where we talk with the leading entrepreneurs, builders and investors who are building the future of the Internet.
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We do this because we believe that these people people in general are worth knowing and we want to share the stories behind why these people are here building for a better future.
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My name is Alex Kahaya.
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I'm your host Today.
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I'm really excited to have Ming here, who's the founder of Raccoon's Labs, which is building and designing and creating projects in Solana.
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The most notable one you'll know is Jupiter, which is a liquidity aggregator on Solana.
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It offers a range of tokens and routing discovery between token pairs and is by far the best Dex I've ever used.
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Personally, super excited to have you here on the show.
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Thanks for taking the time.
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Awesome.
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Hey guys, Thanks for having me, man.
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I want to start off with why are you building in Web3?
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You get up every morning.
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You are super active on Twitter.
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You're super active with your community.
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I can tell just from watching your Twitter account how hard you hustle, and I know you're a founder, so I know what that is like.
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What's driving you.
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Why are you here pushing so hard to build what is now the number one Dex on Solana?
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First off, I don't think we see ourselves as a Dex.
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We see ourselves as building an exchange.
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I mean, our goal is just quite simple.
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We're going to build the best exchange in the world.
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We don't care decentralized.
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That's the point.
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The reason I say that is because I do actually think that decentralized exchanges have a really big advantage in the long term over centralized exchanges.
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I think our goal is to manifest that possibility.
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Can we create an environment whereby people really prefer using decentralized systems rather than decentralized systems?
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I think that also answers why I'm doing what I'm doing.
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I'm vastly, vastly, vastly more interested in the world of possibilities by decentralized systems.
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If you think about it, there are most two versions of the world One version that is governed by rules and existing systems and a lot of things are codified, whether it's a legal system or whether it's like a financial system.
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The financial system is probably the most codified system in the world, apart from the government system.
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Even in the tech industry there are a lot of norms.
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If you go into the valley, you go anywhere in the world.
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Even those very open industries are also quite codified.
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They have the entire power structure of PCs and everything, both at a very human level, personal level, my preference.
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I don't like working within those social structures.
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I like being in a social structure whereby it's a lot more open and experimental.
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I can figure out who I'm working with.
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I don't have to work with this guy just because he is well-known in the valley.
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Both sides have been wrong.
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People who emphasize oh my God, that these centralized systems are so much better than decentralized ones, let me obviously, you know centralized systems have, like how many years, how many centuries to evolve.
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I also feel like on the other spectrum, everyone who is preaching decentralized nonstop is also kind of like it's also that wrong as well.
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I say, come on, may come.
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We all know we work in the industry, we know Otherwise networks and communities are as full of shit, if not more, they're centralized ones.
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I'm actually not really saying that decentralized systems are better than centralized ones.
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I'm saying it at a personal level.
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I think I'm much more interested in what I see are the much less codified and much more unlimited where there are no ways we can bring these systems, compared to trying to change the centralized systems for many, many reasons.
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Those two kind of give the context about why I'm so active.
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That question really comes in two ways why am I motivated to kind of like, you know, build like a computer, and also kind of why I'm active right on like social media and stuff.
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The reality is that if you look at my social media and community thing, I actually have been very quiet right for the last two years.
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I actually haven't really been like tweeting much and everything over the last 12 long time.
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I feel like now we are kind of transiting into a face.
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I really think of it as pre and post Bitcoin.
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I think pre-Bitcoin I'm not sure if you saw the presentation idea of Bitcoin.
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Pre-bitcoin, I think will quite internally operated, right, we're all product right, okay, quite simple.
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But now it's like best price, best UX and best selection, right.
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So it was very internal.
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After Bitcoin, I think something shifted.
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It went from like having to work to build the best product now you build the best community and then a really, really big part of bringing the best community right.
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And I'll be frank here you have to communicate strategy.
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You have to communicate strategy.
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People have to know what you're thinking, and I think that's actually one thing that I think people kind of like are sometimes shy to say or they don't want to say it, right, you know, because they're like, okay, cool, or I'm going to say something that a computer doesn't like.
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They can push back on it, you know, and I can't do it.
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Being able to talk through these things and handle it is actually a really important part of the job.
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The the mislead I think a lot of founders do in this space is that they think, oh, I have my job, which is like building, and I have the side job, which is talking to my community At the end.
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That's wrong, I think.
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If you want to do a crypto startup, if you want to take funds from everybody, right.
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If you want to create a fund, even create a product, that around users and stuff, then I feel like you have to treat that conversation as your job, and that's kind of how I see it anyway.
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Yeah, that's it.
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That's really interesting.
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So it sounds like yeah, I think that's it.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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You know, one of the big driving motivations for you is just, you have a passionate interest in how decentralized systems can be just more accessible to everyone because they're more open.
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Even if you think about it right, there's nothing preventing someone from using a bank, any kind of bank or any kind of thing right from a tanker perspective, right, nothing.
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But it's more like there's a certain like a codification of how things are supposed to work.
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They are there for both necessary and unnecessary.
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It's really really, really hard for a builder or user to kind of break through that war, and I think that war is actually not there in retreat and I love that.
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I saw Vibhu, the founder of Drip, talking about the same thing with community.
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It was really interesting how he views that, as his number one job is just communicating on Twitter with a community, and I understand why founders are hesitant to do that.
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And there's two things like yeah, you're shy or like don't know what to say, but also it does take up a lot of energy, right, and like you're putting a ton of energy into building.
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And then like how much energy do you have left to talk to the community?
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Like you're human right At the end of the day.
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How do you manage that?
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You know, how do you manage building Jupiter and being so communicative and engaged in with the community?
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And I'm specifically like really interested in just in understanding if you have any process or like tips or things that you do that people can sort of actionably grab on to.
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I think that'd be super helpful.
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It's actually both a spiritual thing and also both like very particular thing.
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And the spiritual thing is a philosophy, right, how you build the whole thing, and actually makes huge difference how much stress sticks on you.
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And then, at a particular level, yes, you do things on a daily basis, right, to help that right.
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First of all, I don't think I'm doing that well, by the way, you know, just because I think I'm trying, you know right.
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But because it's only a couple of months, you know, since I began like becoming a lot of public.
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So you know, you can check it in a couple of years to see how it is, even though I was more quiet on social media, but I was actually highly engaged in terms of problems, right, if there's any like customer partner problem, or like a partner opportunity or user problem, we were there, right.
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So we were quiet more in terms of broadcasting our values and everything, but we were still there in single.
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Now it's the way we're going to start to broadcast our values and everything.
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You know, at a very, very philosophical level.
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You have to appreciate that we're all humans and people get anxious, you know, about their capital right, about their gains, what might seem trivial to you, because you are administering a large amount of token right.
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Just to take an example, I say you know I'm administering, like you know, five billion token right.
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So to me it is very easy to become a number.
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To me it can be very meaningful you know what I'm saying Especially if you're not bad, especially if you haven't recovered from the last like FTX stuff, and then you're trying to find a way back, then again it can be extremely meaningful to you.
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This is kind of things, right.
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So you have to understand that, the anxiety, that right.
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And then once you kind of empathize with the anxiety there, then you go, okay, cool, all right, I get it, I get it.
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But if you go over it in the mindset that, oh, I'm giving free money, why are they so annoying?
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Then I feel like your stress is a lot higher, you know, because you start to see other people as problems versus as like other human beings, right.
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So I think that's actually a very important like philosophy of mindset, and so that's the deep level.
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And then, at a somewhat medium level is, I think, just communicating how you feel is often useful.
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They don't see you as a human.
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It sounds wrong, but they really don't really see a human, right.
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They see you as like a founder, right, or like a tech dude, right, you know.
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Or finance bro, right, well, crypto, bro, I think.
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And some people might even think that, oh, I'm the rich and the good guy, but it doesn't hate you in what I'm trying, man, I think normally they actually are really understanding, you know, and even if they are always on a two dot knot, I feel like the broader community is always understanding.
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So it was really helpful At a tactical level.
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I don't know, man, just take a lot of breaks, man, I have this flow of working.
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I could just do whatever I feel like doing, and sometimes it's writing and sometimes it's like debugging, sometimes it's product work, sometimes it's like talking to someone.
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At least for me anyway, I do recommend it.
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We are brought up mostly to have a do-do list, right, and be productive, right, but I personally don't really feel like that is the way to do it.
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To me, it's actually more like, you know, you're playing a basketball game, right, you know, yes, you have drew certain things like many, many times over, right, I mean, I'm very, very well drew in terms of product management, in terms of, like team management, in terms of, like you know coding things out in terms of prototyping, right, in terms of communicating, right, I'm very well drew in these things, right.
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But then you don't go to basketball court and be like, oh, I have practiced ABCDEFG, let me do ABC, you can do that right.
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So it's more like, okay, cool, right.
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But then at the same time, if you're not well drew right in ABCDEFG, you can actually go there and go, like you know, in SQL sequence one right.
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So I think for me, I feel it's actually two things right.
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Number one is that you have to get extremely well drew right At the key things, and this, this, any key thing, right, and I mean any right.
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Sometimes it's involved like complicated strategy.
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Sometimes it involves like having a very hard competition.
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Sometimes it involves like everything to fuck up.
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It seems like very hard right, you know, actually going in front of like 10,000 people.
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When I tweet something, now, like you know, 5,000 people read it.
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If a shitpost, 5,000 people read it.
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You think, if I do a really big post, like, maybe up to a million people read it, right, you know what I'm saying.
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It's a really broad range of people.
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And good idea, I fucked up, right, you know, do a lot of people with hard right but then.
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But then you train them right, you train them right and then you just go okay, cool, right Now, now you can do anything you know.
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So I think it's more like getting really well trained.
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So I think, technically, for practical overview, it's just getting extremely used, you know, to doing some things right and then basically just do them you know.
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So those are the things that I personally do and personally and my sets of personal in the dog, you know, to make it easier, I think yeah.
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I really love the sports analogy.
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I use that a lot with my employees and like partners and stuff when we're talking about things.
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I think I was a wrestler.
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I wrestled for like for like oh really, no way.
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Yeah, it's like Can I come and save you?
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Yeah, yeah, we can.
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I'm so bad at all these things but I can't do it.
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But I love to just like no, do some stuff.
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Yeah, I would just start doing Jiu Jitsu again this year, which I'm really excited about.
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But I wrestled from the time I was like nine until 19.
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It was like a formative, you know experience.
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I draw from that experience a lot of my motivation and, like you know, use these analogies like hey, you know it's a double overtime right now and you need to get like an ankle pick to win.
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You know you've got to like keep pushing until the end and like really just never give up, which is like 90% of entrepreneurship.
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But I use the same analogies for training and like you're not always in double overtime, you're not always in that like key moment where you need to perform, but the things you're doing on a day to day basis that are part of your job are the reps that you need to succeed so that when you are in that double overtime situation and you're not at your best, you can win.
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Like I think about this every day almost is like it doesn't matter how well I perform when I'm feeling good.
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It matters how well I perform when I'm feeling terrible, right, and when I'm at my worst, like that is the time that actually matters.
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In your examples, you know it's like that customer that's super pissed off at you If you don't have the reps of practicing empathy and you're having the worst day, you're as a founder and you just blow up at the customer.
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What happens?
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You know, like if you don't communicate with them and just be human and have empathy, you fail big time.
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And yeah, that all comes from the practice and just the patience.
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This is called emotional strength.
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At up they crack over time, right, just crack.
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You can work out every day, you can measure 400 pounds every day, and you know, and you get strong for a while.
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But am I just suddenly breaking something?
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I look at.
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Everything I do is like training for my work, and that includes going for a workout and like getting enough sleep at night, not drinking alcohol, like these are things that you know help you show up and perform at the level that you're performing, I'm sure, because it's hard.
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What you're doing isn't possibly hard.
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Alcohol is so bad man.
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Yeah, I think.
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Among all the vices, I think alcohol is the worst.
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I think alcohol literally does nothing for you.
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Have you read the Skafen Carri interviews and the countries?
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No, they're so good Basically.
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The way he does it right is that she's most proud.
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One thing, right.
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He always says it's right, no one works harder than me and I love that because that is so within your control, right?
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I mean how tall you are, you know how strong you are and how high you can jump and everything.
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It's kind of out of control.
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The assistant you can always dig deep to find right, which is like how hard you work.
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Right, and hard work doesn't mean you just work hard.
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That means that you work in a very specific hard way, right.
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So for him, I think he would just like do star sprints.
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Like you just sprint around the court and do a three-pointed right.
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Do a three or a three-pointed Do.
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That's rough man, it's something that's standard and that should.
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It's nothing to like.
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That do a sprint and shoot, holy fuck.
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Then he tends to like really emphasize how much, like he do his drills, like he'll push himself to the physical and mental limit and then he'll do that.
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It's not that hard to you know, shoot when you are like, when legs are fresh, right, it's not hard to do a cuter start out or any start out right In the bull market.
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You go to any investor, say, hey, I'm smart, right, I know ABC, right, I know this guy, that guy, I know that this, this and that guy have funded me.
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Give money, it's not difficult at all.
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I feel like that's a glamorous part, I mean you know the game right.
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Come on, you know the game is actually pretty straightforward.
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Right, you have a narrative, you get what you want to buy in, you create the social gathering right, and then you, you play game.
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You get money.
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Right, the game is very easy in the bull market.
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I feel like there's this crazy culture thing in crypto that's like how do you write?
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I did, they fought in love the grammars, you know, right, oh, I'm cool, I'm a founder that I raise money right from who I will write.
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But that's not.
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That's not what is easy, right, that's the equivalent of the layup, right, like raising money in a bull market is literally equivalent of a straight layup.
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It's easy, right, it's not proud of that at all, but can you sprint five times over the court right, play with the hard defense.
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Can you play with the hard defense I haven't got in you and then make a trip?
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That is hard.
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The hard part.
00:14:16.366 --> 00:14:24.010
100% comes after that raise and it's like, also, can you stay focused enough in the bull market after you raise that, that money?
00:14:24.010 --> 00:14:25.775
Now, all of a sudden, you're flush with cash.
00:14:25.775 --> 00:14:26.157
What do you do?
00:14:26.157 --> 00:14:29.720
Like it's it's really hard and it's like can you stay focused?
00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:34.945
And then what happens when the bear market comes and that's where the focus really comes into play is like staying focused and lean.
00:14:34.945 --> 00:14:40.765
I think we're coming into a pretty big bull market, I think, and it's like you got to remember to stay focused.
00:14:41.287 --> 00:14:42.230
I'm gonna write about you pretty soon.
00:14:42.230 --> 00:14:45.597
But the best to kill you, right, best, are calm and quiet.
00:14:45.597 --> 00:14:47.150
You don't fuck with them.
00:14:47.150 --> 00:14:52.431
They won't kill you and say, right, you know, you know what kills you Raging bulls, angry raging bulls.
00:14:52.431 --> 00:14:54.095
They kill you right In the last cycle.
00:14:54.195 --> 00:14:55.096
Right, who killed us?
00:14:55.096 --> 00:14:55.437
Right?
00:14:55.437 --> 00:15:00.063
No, like, like, literally, it wasn't the bad market killed us, right, the bad market helped us.
00:15:00.063 --> 00:15:00.947
The market saved us.
00:15:00.947 --> 00:15:14.547
The last two years where we had to just build stuff and then just totally had to really write the entire team to score some foundation, right, you know, I had to write my entire team to say, okay, that's because on UX and usability and liquidity, aggression, all that stuff, right, I built the best out.
00:15:14.547 --> 00:15:16.413
Go, right, the bad market saved us right.
00:15:16.413 --> 00:15:19.625
What killed us right was the last bull market.
00:15:19.625 --> 00:15:24.717
You know the raging bull, right, and those bulls came in the form of the FTSE conglomerate.
00:15:24.717 --> 00:15:29.927
It came in the pool of the lunar tornado and it came in the form of a super narrative, right, you know what I'm saying.
00:15:29.927 --> 00:15:32.294
So those things killed us, not the bad market, the bad market saved us.
00:15:32.294 --> 00:15:33.870
That's the thing that people don't understand.
00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:35.258
They really scared the bad right.
00:15:35.258 --> 00:15:38.028
All my fucking community scared the bad.
00:15:38.028 --> 00:15:38.691
I love the bad man.
00:15:38.691 --> 00:15:39.231
Dubai is great.
00:15:39.231 --> 00:15:39.933
You know I love the bad.
00:15:40.235 --> 00:15:46.333
you know I'm scared of the bull, you know right, yeah, for founders listening to this, because I know there are some out there like that listen to this show.
00:15:46.333 --> 00:15:49.086
How did they keep their eye on the ball with all these distractions?
00:15:49.408 --> 00:15:53.538
Don't get caught in lifestyle, man Dude, the crypto lifestyle is terrible, man.
00:15:53.538 --> 00:15:56.015
Like seriously, man, don't get caught in lifestyle.
00:15:56.015 --> 00:15:56.659
That's like horrible.
00:15:56.659 --> 00:15:57.905
It's a really bad lifestyle, man.
00:15:57.905 --> 00:16:00.136
It's like I'm quite sure it's no different from anything.
00:16:00.136 --> 00:16:05.956
Man, you go to the music industry and you make it big and then everyone, you start to be hot right, everyone's off the piece of you.
00:16:05.956 --> 00:16:06.807
What's the song?
00:16:06.807 --> 00:16:08.818
The one, eight mile.
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