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Rachel Denning (00:10.574)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We're your hosts, Greg and Rachel Denning. And today, marriage is what brings us together today. For those of you who may not catch that reference, it's that famous line from Princess Bride, excellent classic movie. And we are going to talk about marriage. And we're going to get into some of the nitty gritty and nuts and bolts of why some marriages aren't working.

and they become dysfunctional. And ultimately, at least from my perspective, most of the time we're making it, it is hard. Marriage is tough. Living with another human being is tough. Living with a human being with the opposite sex is tough, but we're making it way tougher than it needs to be. Right. And maybe, maybe instead of saying marriage is hard, we should say marriage is work because no...

no way around it, it's going to be work. You can't just expect to, I think you can't get married or have been married for a while and expect that your marriage is going to get better unless you do the work of becoming better yourself and ultimately changing. And as we'll talk about today, influencing your spouse and inspiring your spouse to change. But all of that is hard work. So when you say hard, that's essentially what you mean.

It's hard work, hard work. Yep. Whether it's whether you have a great marriage or a terrible marriage, it's going to either be hard or it's going to be work. But you're not getting out of either of those. All right. And one is going to be just unbelievably miserable. And the other has potential for phenomenal bliss and joy. But not without a lot of work. You got to put in the work. And I think you bring up such an important point. And it all starts with a mental framework of, hey, I got to work for this.

Yeah. Every good thing in life takes good hard work. Like, you know, I think I think most people want to be healthy. They want to be happy. They want a good marriage. They want wealth. But I would also say that most people grossly underestimate the effort and work it takes to achieve those things. Yeah. And maybe we, you know,

Rachel Denning (02:32.173)
They never knew. They weren't taught that. We see all these movies. You never see it modeled. Right. And you're like, man, look at this movie, this book. They got married, they fell in love, and that was it, Happily Ever After. And that's not the case. It's like, oh no, they worked hard ever after. And that's how they got Happily Ever After, is because they worked hard ever after. And I don't want the work, even as we're starting around now, some of you are getting discouraged. You're like, oh man.

It's so much work. Well, but it gets easier and better and the work becomes more. It can be it can be enjoyable. Yeah, it's definitely rewarding. And sometimes even more tolerable. Yeah. Yeah, this is still work. But and and I think in some ways, maybe it's just human nature. We're inherently lazy. We want the easy path. We want the easy way.

But unfortunately, like the Buddha says, there are only two paths. One of the paths is the easy path that leads to all the outcomes you don't want. It's easier, but it also brings you everything you hate, right? The harder path, the other path is harder. It's way more work and effort, but it brings you to everything that you dream of. Those are the only paths in life. So,

And maybe it's the same path, but a different direction. For many, many years, I've tried to see that life has lived on an incline and either we're putting in the effort to ascend or when we stop, we just slowly slide back down. It's like you're on a sand volcano and it just kind of just slowly slides back down. If you don't keep climbing, you're descending and nobody has ever coasted to the top of anything.

And the same is true with marriage. Right. Now I know some of you listening are saying, well, I've been putting in the work. I've been doing the things. I've been listening to your podcasts. I've been making the effort. And my spouse is not. My spouse is not motivated. My spouse doesn't want to change. Or they make an effort, but then give up. They get tired of it. We know people personally and have heard of people that are just like, well, what's the point? I'd rather just.

Rachel Denning (04:56.813)
enjoy my life, take the easier path because it's easier, right? And it's also deceiving too because we don't always feel like we're on a decline. We don't always feel like we're getting bad results. We're thinking, well, what? Yeah, so I eat some junk food or I take it easy or I'm not fully investing in my marriage or I'm not pursuing things hard, but life's good.

I've got good things going on. So what do I need to worry about? Why do I have to put in so much effort? When I don't see that much of a difference either way. And I think what comes to my mind. What comes to my mind? Well, and a lot of people could argue that it's not just an okay life. It's a great life. It's a good life. But what comes to my mind?

is this clear image I have and you should look it up. It's called the slide edge. And there's a book by that name. And if you look up the slide edge diagram, it will show you that essentially there's this principle that you make choices every single day and they are leading you on these paths. As we said, one of them is an incline and one of them is a decline, but the results tend to be exponential, meaning that they're delayed.

that's even more than how you say it. It looks about the same. The person putting in the effort and the person not putting in the effort seem to be doing about the same. But as time goes on, their paths diverge greatly, exponentially. So that one suddenly seems to make all of these improvements and the other seems to suffer horribly. And you think, wow, what happened? It's been the small.

Seemingly inconsequential choices over time that has led to those exponential results. Now the problem is we never know when that time is coming. And it often comes after years and years sometimes of stacking. Well, I was going to say that of compounding and stacking. It was just building up. And it builds in both directions. Right. Where an irritation just becomes more and more irritable. And so where before it was just kind of annoying. And then it becomes explosive.

Rachel Denning (07:23.021)
Excruciating. Oh, it's horrible. And then on the other side, you know, it's just like, oh, that was a nice touch. And that was a nice touch. And over years, you're like, gosh, I love this person so much. And I'm so in love because it was all those little things that stack up to be this huge pile of love. Right. So to begin, I think as we discuss this topic and different strategies we can use,

We have to understand that unless we ourselves and our spouse can get this vision of what we're talking about, the slight edge, and I really encourage you to, because it's a podcast, I can't show you the diagram, right? You should Google it and look at what I'm talking about. If you can't grasp the picture of the long -term consequences of these choices, then...

you don't realize the potential disaster you're facing unless you are willing to take the right path and do the work. And ultimately that's it. Like you have to help your spouse get the picture that there are two paths and that's it. We can either be working on our marriage or we're working on our divorce. We can either be working on becoming incredible parents or we're working on sucking as parents. We can either be working on getting wealthier.

or we're working on being broke and poor. That's it. There are no other options. It's one or the other. If you're not working on your marriage, then by default, you are working on your divorce. Right. And so essentially the entire message of The Extraordinary in Family Life is not...

do extreme things to get extreme outcomes, it's like, do these efforts so that you are not on the path that eventually leads to all the things you don't want, because that is the default. The default is that path. The do nothing is that path. The be passive, that's that path. Or the do little. Or do little. You're saying do nothing, and they're like, why don't I do nothing? I'm a good person. I'm a...

Rachel Denning (09:38.637)
good for the men. I'm a good husband. I'm a good dad. I'm a good provider, but good, good, good, but small effort or even even normal effort won't cut it. I'm sorry to break that to you. Well, and that's sorry. Not sorry. Normal effort won't cut it. It just can't. And you're going to end up with mediocre results. Yes, because it reminds me of we did a Tony Robbins seminar thing. Well, during 2020, actually.

And I remember very vividly him saying that, that it used to be that if you, you know, made normal efforts, you would get good results. And if you made good efforts, you would get great results. And if you made great efforts, you'd get extraordinary results. He's like, that's not true anymore. The world has changed. One, because of technology and how easy it is to just simply get distracted and lost in whatever that also has an effect on our children and our parenting.

Unless you put in extraordinary efforts, you are not getting. You're going to get crap results. You're going to get crap results. Pretty much every other level there is getting you crap results because it's just not as easy anymore to get those types of results. It used to be because of the way just the world was, you know, and it's not that way anymore. And now less less some of you are already getting discouraged. Thank you, Dennings, for another depressing episode.

I want to give you some encouragement because I get to talk to people every single day. I get to do coaching every day. And I often get to talk to people and meet with people who they're like, they're exhausted. They're like, I am working so hard and I'm absolutely exhausted. And you're telling me that it's more effort and it's more work. I'm out. I can't do it. And the encouragement I want to give is that we're often,

to no fault of your own, you're just doing it the wrong way. You're putting in all this effort. Into the wrong thing. Into the wrong thing or you're just holding the tool. You don't have the right tool or you're holding the tool wrong. Even let's say. You're using a hammer instead of a nail gun. Yeah, hammer instead of a nail gun or a screwdriver. I had to do this yesterday because we left our drill at our new place and I was pulling out these really difficult screws with a screwdriver. I'm like, man, this is hard.

Rachel Denning (12:06.125)
This is really hard work. My forearms are burning and this is so slow. I was most annoyed by the slowness of it. This is retarded. But even if you had a power drill, hold on, you had a power drill and I just held it at the wrong angle, just a slightly different angle. It's just going to strip the screw. And so then I have a bigger problem because now I've got a screw in there. It won't go in, won't go out. And I've just stripped the thing just because I was at the angle.

And you're like, I've been pushing and pushing. I've been trying and trying and it just doesn't work. And you have somebody come in, a coach come in and say, well, just, just lift it a little bit like this. Oh, look at that. Ooh. Wow. So, so what we're telling you is this effort, just a little bit of tweaking and adjustment, the effort you're giving will produce massive results as long as you're holding the lever or the lever is every set, however you want to say it.

As long as you're holding that right and using it right, you take the same amount of effort and going to produce massive results. Right. And I love this analogy because if we say, let's use it saying that we're building a house or something. And in some ways we're talking about, Hey, you've got to be extraordinary and you've got to build not just one dream house, but like 10 of them. And you're thinking, here I am with my screwdriver and you want me to build 10 houses? That's insane.

But you're right, once you get the right tools and then learn how to use them the right way, all of a sudden you can do that so much faster. And so it'll still take you time to build that one house, but then building 10 houses is no longer impossible. It's doable and it's still a lot of work, but you've learned how to work harder and smarter, so that it's easier to do than you had previously imagined and in fact was

physically impossible if you try to do all of it with your screwdriver, right? That's kind of what we're talking about. Yes, it's going to be work and you're gonna have to do a lot of it, but you're gonna learn how to do it more effectively and efficiently so that it's possible. Where the way you're doing it now, it literally is impossible. It is impossible, yeah. And you may not be able to see it. You're sitting inside your own conflict. You're sitting inside your own marriage and feeling so much pain and so much frustration and...

Rachel Denning (14:27.757)
you have been trying for years. And so in your mind, look, we've been trying for years. It's not working. This sucks. It just a whole and where we get to meet with couples and we worked with couples all over the world. Like you walk in and you look at it, you're like, Oh, it's this and that just, just stop doing that. Start doing this, tweak this. And wow, there's your problem, right? It's like, I, I walked into, we have a good friend who's just a phenomenal chiropractor. And I, I,

They invited us over their house who went over to stay for a little while and I walked in and he's like man Is it is it your right knee or your right hip? What's up? and and like he just saw me walk up his walkway and through the front door and he's like something's off here and he had an Adjustment table right in his front room. He's like, what's over here? Crack crack and he could tell just by watching me walk through his door He could tell that something's off and where I was hurting and I was and he create, you know straighten me out adjust me there and I was like

Oh man, I feel so much better. He's a master. He's a master. You could literally watch me walk and be like, Oh, that's where you're off. There's some pain in your life. And so we want to do that same thing here and say, Hey, there's some pain in your marriage. You can't see it. You can't really tell you've been trying, but it's not, you can feel it. Yeah. You can feel the pain. You know, it's there, but you don't know what to do or how to adjust it and get the vehicle. So should we read the question? We got an awesome question and

and want to have this be kind of a catalyst for elements of this conversation. Yeah. Okay. Wondering if you have advice for someone who's been trying to pour everything into their life and marriage to make it extraordinary, but the spouse is not showing up and being the man as Greg has defined. If they try, they will relapse or it seems like it's the bare minimum and that this has been going on for years and it feels like it's holding me back from my ex -

from our extraordinary life or the potential. Wondering your thoughts on handling situations like this when it feels like you've tried everything and you've given it time. Good, thank you. Great question, really great question. I remember thinking like that often, particularly that phrase, I've tried everything. I remember thinking like that. And I remember actually saying that, multiplying. I've tried everything, this doesn't work. I think especially when we were like,

Rachel Denning (16:50.413)
trying to build our business and trying to all of the businesses we quote tried to build. Exactly. And that ultimately the problem was us and me in particular. Well, I think and saying that I tried everything. That's an interesting one. And it kind of hurts because you feel like you generally feel like you have tried everything. But the truth is you haven't. And I realized that, you know, too late for some of our businesses.

I'm like, we tried everything, it just didn't work. And later on, I realized I hadn't even started trying. I hadn't even gotten close to the first attempts of a baby. And yet in my mind, I thought I was giving Herculean effort. Yeah. Well, that is one of the challenges with a statement like this, because in reality,

through experience, we've discovered that when you say you've tried everything, all that means is you've tried everything you currently know of. Exactly. That's it. And for most of us, that's a very small list. Yeah, for most of us, unless we have done tons of research, tons of experience, had lived a long time, even that doesn't always happen because just because you're older doesn't mean you're wiser. We often don't know what we don't know.

So trying everything only means you've only tried everything you know of. Within your current limits, yeah. Yeah, and so the answer always is to expand your horizons, to expand your understanding, to expand your skill set. And your effectiveness with what you're trying, kind of back to the tool metaphor, we say, well, you should try this tool, and you're like, oh, I did, I tried that. I used a drill. How did you use it? Well, I just.

Well, I just put it up there and pull the trigger. Like, okay, let's see that. And then you can see like, oh, that's why. Yes, you did try that, but you weren't doing it right. So it didn't work. Yeah. Because, and again, I used to do that, too. I'm like, I tried that. We'll do this. Well, I did that, too. It didn't work. And then later, I realized, oh, I was totally, totally doing that wrong. Let me let me share a bird example I heard in a book yesterday. I was listening to he was trying to market his business. His business was just absolutely dying.

Rachel Denning (19:08.621)
limping along there was this they were broke and He talked to a mentor and the mentors like man. I use flyers I go out I put out flyers. Let's put out loads of flyers and I get all kinds of business and So like yeah, that's it. I'm gonna go do flyers. So he went down He designed it they went and printed out 300 flyers and went and put you know 300 flyers on car and they stuck them in the windshield wiper right this whole parking lot

And they were just like, dude, we put out 300. That's legit. I'm gonna go home waiting for my phone to just ring. They wait and they wait and wait. The next day they get one call and they're like, here it is. It's coming. And it was some guys like, I think you guys scratched my Mercedes. And he's like, Oh crap. It's like that was the only call they ever got from those 300 things. And he's like, that's crap. His stupid idea doesn't work. I went I put 300 flyers out.

And I only call it out with some guy was mad. Like what a dumb idea. Right. And then I think it was like a week later, something he was talking to me like, Hey, how's the, how are things going? He's like, well, not very good. He's like, why? He's like, I tried your flyer method and it didn't work. He's like, really? It always works for me. Like, well, how many did you put out? And so I put out 300, man. And the guy's like, Oh, Oh, that's funny. He's like, we put out 5 ,000.

is our first test. And if we even get a few calls, then we do 5000 per day. And this guy's mind was just absolutely blown. Right? He thought he had done this Herculean effort with putting out 300 flyers. And his mentor said, No, 5000 is our test. And if we get any sign of life, we do 5000 per day. And, and that's

I mean, that's a metaphor for what we're talking about here. You think, well, I tried that. Well, how long? Like two whole weeks. Like I did the dishes every day for two weeks. And she was like, well, thanks. But like it didn't change anything. I'm like, how many years have you not been doing? Right? Exactly. Exactly. Like, hold on, bro. You've not doing the dishes for years and years and years. And now you put in this.

Rachel Denning (21:33.229)
You know, what you think is this great effort of two weeks every day and you're so tired and your hands are sore and raw and waterlogged from all your hard work in the kitchen. You haven't even started. Right. You haven't even started. So I think that that's one point too, is that we have to remember this is a long game. Like you're married for life. That should that should first of all be the standard.

Like this is a lifelong commitment, we're in it. So whatever you do, it's going to be a long game. And that may not be encouraging because you want results next week. But the point is, you can't just try everything and then be like, I'm done here. You have to keep trying. You have to keep reiterating. You have to keep changing your strategy and your approach and your like, it just goes on. And...

you know, that's been true for us as well. We have definitely done that, both of us, in that this is a long game. We are in it for the long run, and so we just continue to improve our strategy and approach, especially, you know, as it relates to influencing one another. We can't just give up on it. Yeah, that's where, that's where...

How do I adequately articulate this? If you're trying to get a result just for yourself, you can put in a certain amount of effort and you get the result. But if you're trying to get a result for yourself and influence another person next to you, the effort and the energy has to be even greater. Where you've heard Rachel and I talk about this all the time. You have to bring in the tide. You have to be the tide.

You have to bring in so much water into the bay. It lifts all the boats in the harbor. You have to be the tide. And you there's no way you can be the tide with the puny little effort. Right. Let's go back to the dishes or the diapers or whatever. A limited effort like it literally has to just be your way of being. I love you saying it just becomes your way of being. So instead of.

Rachel Denning (23:52.525)
Instead of well, I'll give it a try. I'll do the dishes for two weeks and see if it makes a difference. You just think man, it's so important to her to do the dishes. Like I'm going to make sure either I do them or someone's going to do them. I'm going to make sure they're done for the rest of our marriage. Like done. Right. Like, and maybe that's not the best example, but that's the mindset I'm talking about is it becomes your way of being like, Oh, that's important to Rachel. Well done. That's who I am. Exactly.

I am the history. The greatest thing that can be done in your marriage is to change yourself. You have to be the change. Yes. And it's it's simultaneously hard and easy. Sometimes they miss so hard to change yourself. And yet when you do it, you're like, that wasn't that hard. Ultimately, it was a decision. I'm just going to stop doing that. If if after years, you finally catch your wife's hints.

that she gets really annoyed by the things you're doing, just stop. And once you decide you're like, oh, it wasn't even that big of a deal. I just stopped doing that. Well, and I think that just to add to that for a minute, the way, the way to do that is to get the paradigm shift or framework shift so that in your mind, that suddenly now becomes, you know, you're relevant because.

you understand the importance it has, once you get that perspective shift, it makes change easy. Because when you understand what role it plays in your life, or it doesn't play, then it's easy to do or not do the things that actually matter. Right, exactly. Okay, so back to this excellent question. Like I'm doing everything, I've been doing it for years, and the husband's just not.

being the man. He's just not stepping up.

Rachel Denning (25:53.453)
Ultimately, this is such a challenging conversation because ultimately each individual is responsible to become the very best version of himself. It is his responsibility to be the man, to be a world -class husband and father and businessman, a protector provider, just to be a man. That's on him. And one of the best things you could do genuinely, I'm not just trying to self promote here, it's just,

get him into my masterclass and tribe. That's literally what we do every time we meet. We met again yesterday and we just go over like tools and strategy, taxes, support to literally level up as men. And there's so much power there and it's much easier. Every man needs a tribe and it is so much easier for men to call each other out and encourage each other level up. And it's more easily received from men and from an outside source from a tribe than it is from a wife. The wife's words.

can be really painful. If a wife says, hey, you need to do that better, ah, it stings. Where if Greg Denning says, dude, knock that off, you need to do that better, he's like, yeah, you're right, I'll do it. Where at home he's like, what, you don't respect me. I do all this stuff for you and all you do. It gets defensive and problematic. And I think that, sorry, I don't want to interrupt you, but I think that this comes to a potentially very important point in a dynamic like this because,

We've seen it many times in your coaching clients and other situations where it becomes this sabotaging circle that goes around and around and around where the wife is disrespecting the husband, at least according to his perspective. And as a result, he's not meeting her needs or living up to her expectations because he feels disrespected.

and around and around it goes in this downward spiral. He begins to behave in even worse, even worse, more the way which is so ironic. Exactly. And he's like, Oh, I'm not respected. So I'm, I'm going to behave like an idiot. And so then he loses more respect. So she gives him less respect and, and nags him more, even if she doesn't define it as nagging that you need to be better. You need to raise up, you need to be the man. And he continues then to act in more defeating ways. And so it becomes this cycle of destruction.

Rachel Denning (28:20.973)
So the answer in those situations is you have to put a stop to that cycle. You have to change it. Now I've recommended it before. I will continue to recommend it. But all women, all wives need to read The Empowered Wife by Lara Doyle. It will literally give you exactly the tools that you need. The very tools that we use all the time in our coaching. But she's outlined it in a very clear way.

a very powerful way and it tells you how to influence your husband in a way so that he wants to do the things that you want him to do. Like he chooses to do it because he wants to please you because you're now treating him in ways that inspire him to do that instead of nagging him into doing it, which just doesn't work. Exactly. So even though this is hard to hear, it needs to be said. You're

You listener are often involved in what's called collusion. Like you're somehow subconsciously or inadvertently creating the very thing you don't want. So to the individual asking the question even and to everybody else listening, there are things your spouse is doing or not doing that you are directly or indirectly contributing.

That you're not aware of it, but your actions or inactions, your reactions are literally creating the thing you don't want. It's the nagging or the silent treatment or the cold shoulder or whatever, or your little hinting or these little games we play. It's actually creating the very thing you don't want. Well, and even if it's not this game you're playing or what you think you're just doing it in a very normal, natural way, it can be.

be one, your total misunderstanding of men and how they work or vice versa, women and how they work or whatever else that are, like you're saying, causing or contributing to the problem. You might think, well, this is normal. This is how I interact with people. This is and for whatever reason, that just doesn't work for him. That just doesn't work for your spouse. And so we have to learn going back to the drill analogy or the power tool analogy.

Rachel Denning (30:39.117)
We have to learn how to make those tweaks so that you're doing the same thing in a way, but you're doing it in a better way or a slightly different way that make all the difference when it comes to our relationship. Exactly. A perfect example of this that I see often is men going into the workplace and they're working with men predominantly and they interact with men and they engage with men in certain ways and it works.

And so he's like, I know it works. I know how to work with people. And I know how to work with people. And so he goes home and he tries that with his wife. And it does not work at all. And he's like, what the heck? Like, this is off. I do this all the time. It works. And I'm going to go home. And so he keeps persisting and pushing. It's like this works other places. Like, I'm going to push. And it doesn't work. And it might be that you're trying things that work with in a masculine sense don't work with feminine.

Or with kids. Or with children. And things that work in the workplace don't work at home or whatever. Like you're trying to push things. You're like, well, I know how to run a business. So I'll run my home like a business, but that won't work. And so it's these little strategies, little mindsets that are creating the problem. Yes. So back to answer the questions like, well, I'm doing everything. I don't even want to, you know.

I don't even know what to do. How do we, how do we go forward when it's just feel like he's not leveling up and, um, yes, he needs to level up. But one of the things that you can do is massively level up yourself. And that's going to draw him upward. It's going to call him, propel him, compel him, inspiring, motivate him, sting a little. Like it's going to be a kick in the pants.

to get things going. Well, and this is always the hard part when we are talking with couples or working with couples, answering questions like this is because we know both parties are guilty. Yep. But it often feels like from your perspective, the one in the relationship that you really are doing the best you can and you don't know how to do any better. But and while that's true, I believe that that's true from the limited

Rachel Denning (32:58.061)
and I say limited not in a denigrating way, the limited knowledge you have, you are doing the best you can. But I also know, we know from experience that 99 % of the time you are doing something that's causing or contributing to the problem. Hands down, that's what's happening. So if you can change that thing, you will begin to change the problem. And you will then begin, because of your actions,

to inspire them not by what you're telling them to do, but through your own actions of changing and no longer being annoying and irritating to them, because that's kind of what's happening is that whatever you're doing is irritating them, which causes them to be irritating to you, round and round it goes. Well, that's one scenario, or you're just conditioning in another way, but keep going. That once you start to make those changes, it inspires them to want to do the same, because ultimately they do love you. They married you. They care about you.

They don't want to not be the person that you respect or admire. They want to be that person. And so once we get out of the way, it gives them the freedom to fulfill their potential. I love that. One scenario that runs parallel with that, I can just totally see this happening because I've heard it so many times, is this subtle conditioning. It's subtle almost training.

where let's just play something out hypothetically. Husband comes home, he's not working, he's been working hard, he comes home, he's exhausted, like, oh man, I just gotta have some downtime and I gotta relax a little bit. And wife's like, yeah, me too, I'm tired. Let's just, we could go for a walk or we could just, no, no, no, let's just sit on the couch and let's talk. And so that becomes kind of a normal thing. And then let's just,

let's just kick on an episode or a movie and they kick on a movie. And then over time, what happens is that the training, the conditioning is let's come home, let's sit down, let's be physically lazy and even mentally, emotionally lazy. Cause we're going to do something very passive, like watch a, watch a show or something. And so that becomes this, the pattern. Well, over time, what happens in this so important to understand this concept,

Rachel Denning (35:25.357)
Over time, what happens is that leads to just fundamental inherent laziness, lack of drive, lack of ambition, lack of activity. And it just starts to condition that. And then after time passes, the very thing you want, it was like, well, no, come sit down with me and let's just, let's just be here. And then that turns into a very sedentary, unmotivated, undriven man.

for example. So you got this guy and I was like, and then, you know, a couple of years later, you're like, my husband doesn't, he's not driven. He's not ambitious. He's not chasing things. He's just, he's kind of lazy and he loves to just, you know, look, be on his phone or watch movies or, you know, sports and he's, he's gotten overweight now and, and he's not really doing anything. And, and it's like, well, yeah, that's, that's part of, that's the conditioning.

That's happened. That's the habits. That's the patterns that are built in there. So I'm training. We have Rachel hates my dogs, but I love my dogs. I absolutely love my dogs. They're, they're Connie Corso's Italian mastiffs. They're just spectacular dogs. We have hired a phenomenal trainer to train them at the highest level possible. And today during the training, we were talking about that and he's like, look, this your dog.

has the potential in its DNA and its breeding and its structure and creation has the potential to just be this absolutely phenomenal athletic dog that's capable of incredible things. But if you enclose it in a small yard, you feed it tons of whatever, and you don't take it on walks, you don't train it, you don't push its limits, you don't stretch its...

problem solving abilities, it's physical stamina. Like today we were, we were giving him really challenging puzzles. Like I was going around through these gates that weren't obvious. And I was getting, I was going in different places and he had to try to find me. He had to try to get to me and I was calling him and he was like, I don't know how to get to you. We kept giving him difficult puzzles to solve. So we were actually his mind. And then we just wrestled and wrestled and wrestled the really exercises, bite work and his stamina. And we're pushing all his limits.

Rachel Denning (37:48.845)
And the trainer is like, if you leave your dog just doing nothing, he'll become very incapable. He'll be fat and lazy. It won't be very intelligent. And even though he has all of the potential in his DNA, it's untapped. It's completely untapped. And so you have this dog that like barks and it does this thing and it's just there, but it's all this untapped potential trapped in this dog. He says, if you take the dog and you push it mentally and physically and emotionally,

all its capabilities that's written into his DNA are finally unlocked, but only with training and conditioning. And I think the same thing is true with us. Like all the power and glory and wonder of a woman can only be unlocked if we tap into the potential. All the strength and stamina and power of a man can only be unlocked if we stretch.

physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, financially, if we're training to those limits. Like most of us in marriage can barely run a little 5K. Our marriage stamina, our marriage strength, our marriage IQ is so small, so underdeveloped, so weak that we're just dying, we're just panting and breathing. Like, dude, this is so hard, I'm dying.

where you might have somebody that in a marriage stamina, they're running ultra marathons. They're doing a hundred mile races and you're like, oh, you guys are married. You guys are so lucky. Your marriage is just amazing. Right. Well, you know, you've built up your marriage IQ, your marriage stamina, you've tapped into the potential instead of leaving it dormant. So I guess you've had different conditioning. So in a way you think you should think about it like that. It's.

your marriage training, and this goes to your life, your parenting, you have to have different sort of training, which means you have to have different sort of activities and interactions and problem solving. And the more of that you take on and pursue, the more potential can be untapped. But you're right, if we just do the same things every single day and have the same routines and then wonder why...

Rachel Denning (40:14.381)
you know, especially our spouse doesn't do more or want more. Well, what else is there? You, someone has to be the catalyst to say like, hey, let's go do this. Let's do that. Let's go here. Let's go here. And if they're not willing to do it with you to start, you do it. Because that then like you're talking about becomes who you are, your way of being. And then you bring the tide, especially if you combine that with strategies like

Six Intimacy Secrets from Laura Doyle. She should pay me for promoting her, I think. But she just has, when I read her book, I just thought, yes, exactly, this is stuff I've been living and teaching for years. And she just has it laid out so clearly that I'm like, read her book. But you use those strategies and it just makes a huge difference. One of the things I love that she says, and I know that this is geared towards both sexes, but.

I think it's true though, the podcast, our episode is her book is geared towards women. And I think it's true that she says women are the driving force in the level of happiness in their marriage. And a lot of women don't believe that because they don't see that to be true. They think I'm not happy because of my husband. He's the driving force. But that's why I love what she teaches because she shows you how to change that.

so that he is driven to make you happy because men are driven to make women happy. That's what they want to do. They want to make you happy. They want to fulfill your dreams. They want to provide. They want to do all the things you want them to do. But unless we learn how to...

help them do that the right way. We're literally just sabotaging and we are causing our own unhappiness. And I always teach my men that men are 100 % responsible for the happiness in their lives. And both are absolutely true. Yes, true. And when you lean in and get after it, it's amazing. I guess one of the things you have to drive home is one of the...

Rachel Denning (42:31.245)
One of the most painful and difficult questions to ask is how am I contributing to the problem? And when you ask that and then make those changes, you become this catalyst for change. And it starts to create, well, it starts stacking, stacking wins and stacking things in the right direction and making big moves. So the questions that come in is like, what can I do? And we even got a question for our daughter is like, well, what if only one person is working in the mirror? It's like, what do you think about that? Is it possible?

If just one of the spouses is wanting to make change and absolutely yes, 100 % because you by leveling up, you're changing the equation. The equation of your marriage is already better because you're leveling up. But you guys like, I don't, I don't know how to emphasize this enough. You have to fundamentally become a different person, a better person, a better version of you. So you're still you, you're just, you're just exponentially better.

You don't here's a perfect example. We see couples who are fighting over these stupidest things It's so small so insignificant Where I think I'm just baffled. I'm like you kidding me. You're fighting with the person you love the most in this world the one you you like Hitched yourself to that you committed to for life and you're fighting over that Are you kidding me?

and we get bothered by small things. So right there, we just have to stop because it's make a fundamental change. Like I'm no longer going to be bothered by small things. Well, and part of the reason, I mean, we understand that part of the reason people fight over quote unquote small things is because it's not about the thing. It's just the last straw on a whole stack of things. And so it's literally just a trigger that's reminding you of XYZ, all the things that are stacked.

And so, when we learn how to...

Rachel Denning (44:34.253)
uncover all of those things and ultimately, like you were talking about, improve ourselves, make ourselves better, heal from our own wounds, so to say, you know, get rid of our own baggage, then we become less triggered by the small things because we've dealt with it, we've handled it, we've addressed it and now we're like, oh, well that no longer bothers me because I've healed from that thing.

And that's very often what's happening in these fights, besides the fact that we are sabotaging ourselves, like I talked about already, by doing things that are contributing to the problem. Exactly. So here's, I guess, here's the formula I want to share that has worked for us. It's worked for so many people who worked with over the last couple of decades. It just works. So most people start looking for marriage help.

Maybe they'll listen to this podcast, they'll read a book or something, because they're really upset with something their spouse did. And you think, oh, my spouse, ah, and that drives you to start looking. But the first place is to stop right there. Just stop right there and say, okay, well, good. It brought you to awareness. It brought you a desire to want to improve your marriage. That's great. That's fantastic. So stop right there. The first thing you do is just sit down and say, what can I do? What can I do? What can I change? How can I change to?

to make my marriage better. That's the very first place, the most fundamental place to start. What can I do to make my marriage better? And I'll sit down and make a list. And you're like, you know what? Man, I know right away I can do this. I know that Rachel has hinted or said for a long time that she hates when I do that. So I can stop doing that. And she's often asked me to do that. So I can do that. And I start going through and usually it's pretty, you know, it might be even be a small list, but I'm like, I can do those things.

And I start doing them immediately. Then the second list is, what do I want my spouse to do? That's usually going to be a bigger list. And that list is not okay. This one's tricky. The list of things you want your spouse to do isn't for you to give to your spouse and try to get your spouse to do it's it's only leading to the third list, which is the most important list. What can I do to help my spouse do the things I want them to do?

Rachel Denning (46:59.885)
And ultimately, it's the first list and the third list that has all the power for you. Because it's things you know you need to do and then things you can do to help your spouse become a better person. And I would say on the third list, you're often not going to know. Because if you knew, you'd already be doing it. So you're not going to know how to help your spouse do the second list. So in that case, what you do is,

I mean, the thing we've taught for years is input determines output. You have got to get some new input into your mind and heart about how to influence your spouse and do work on that third list. And I mean, as a minimum, I mean, this should just be a standard for everyone. I wish this was the standard for school. Every single person needs to at least read three to 10 or more books on every part of.

the subject you want to improve. So when that comes to marriage, you need to read three to 10 books at least about sex, communication, influence, relationships, men, anything related to the main issues you're dealing with, you know, and you've got to identify those. Are we having a hard time communicating? Well, let's study that. What about having influence on people? Let's study that. What about...

Let's study that you you need to be reading these books on these topics we can't just expect that we're gonna somehow figure out life and marriage and relationships without setting it it's just Impossible and you hear people say that like I don't I don't need to read some stupid book Being married I forget I know how to be married. Yeah, you think I'm an idiot I forget that there are people out there still that that are lots

like afraid or resistant to self -help. I don't understand that. I've never been that person. I don't know. Like it's almost like since I was young, I was just interested in self -help and it's probably unique, but it makes a difference. All of us need help. All of us need self -help, personal development and studying these topics. Guess what? They work.

Rachel Denning (49:23.373)
the input we put into our mind produces different outputs into our life. And so that's where you go next. Whether your marriage is great and you want to make it greater or your marriage is in a lot of pain and you need to save it, I would say a minimum 30 minutes a day inside a good book about marriage. And that can be on audible too. You can listen to it. You don't have to sit down and read. And a warning though, there are some out there that are absolutely horrible.

Yes, they're terrible. They give horrendous advice terrible advice about marriage about parenting about it can destroy your marriage hitting me That's the worst advice I've ever heard don't ever do that We have a list we both have book lists and and there's a lot of great books They're worth reading. In fact, I would say there's five to ten phenomenal books You could just read again and again and again and again again If it were me and I think this is maybe the most effective way to go about this Like if it was me and I was in this situation

I would order immediately, I would order five to 10 books and meet this to me personally. I would. So let's let's let's say I'm unhappy with our marriage. It's struggling like it's it's either flatlining, it's painful or it's dying. That to me is like this is this is urgent. Yeah, this is critical. Like this is triage. You're going. Yeah, you're you're about you're heading to the emergency room.

Like either you get dead serious about this or it's dying. And like you said, almost at the beginning of the episode, Rachel, we have to be, we have to walk up and face the abyss. If I do not change, if I don't stop this, it's going to a very, very ugly place. Well, because ultimately there's only two paths. There really are. There are only two paths. And so maybe you need to walk over the edge and just look in with your imagination and be like, okay, I'll do anything to stay out of that.

So then come back and my commitment, if it were me, a minimum, absolute minimum of one hour a day, no exceptions inside a great marriage book. And I'm going to go through all those five to 10 books and I'm going to do it again and I'm going to do it again. And I'm going to make a list of the things I know annoy the crap out of you that you're so angry about. And I would go ask you, even if it was so painful to me, I'm going to keep my mouth shut. I'm going to be like, Rachel, what can I do to.

Rachel Denning (51:50.445)
help you what can I do to be a better husband what can I what do you want me to stop doing and I'm gonna write those things down and then I'm gonna go gangbusters like that is my religion that's my religion I'm gonna study like crazy and get all those tools and strategies I'm gonna actually hire a coach I would immediately hire a coach I'm like hey give us some tools take a look take a look under the hood here and tells why this engine isn't working and then I'm gonna I'm gonna do those things religiously I will change

If my marriage is on the line and part of it was my own doing, I am changing. I'm gonna become a different person. Well, and I wanna add because I don't think this has to apply only to a marriage that's on the line because this may seem extreme to people, but this is the approach we take with life. We really believe our marriage is on the line, not that it is, it's amazing, but because we take that serious approach to it, like that.

ultra focused, ambitious approach. That's why it is great. We don't wait. One of our core philosophies is we don't wait until things get bad to make changes. We start when we see the slightest, if you're talking about the two paths, the incline or the decline, the slightest decline and we're like, oh, okay, we gotta make some changes here. That's how long we wait. We don't.

wait until we don't wait for the decline. We start slowing on the incline. We're like, Whoa, what's going on? Or turning to the side. Oh, my. Who turned that way? Let's go. This is serious. Right. And we take it dead serious. So that's why we have the phenomenal results. Right. And I think I'm going to share this because it's coming to my mind. And I think it's important. You don't even know about this because I haven't told you about it yet. But there's this woman. Her name's Ruth Frankie. And some of you may have known no of her.

She was a YouTube mom and she had this channel, I think they had like eight kids or something and she's from Utah. She just got convicted for child abuse. Convicted. And I don't know the whole story. My computer reset, I got home the other night, you stayed at our new property and it just started playing, right, on my computer that had turned off.

Rachel Denning (54:13.261)
And so I watched this and it was so fascinating to me because what happened is, there's a lot of things that happen, but one of the things that happened is she started listening to the wrong advice. She started taking advice from this life coach.

who literally destroyed her marriage because of the advice she gave her. She told her husband he had to leave because he was toxic and ruining their family. And then they started like tying up the kids and duct taping them and making them work all day long. I mean, it just went from bad to worse.

because partly what you said before, you know, be careful who you listen to because there is bad advice out there. There really is.

And if we're not careful, I mean it seems extreme, but like I said, there are two paths. And you're either on the right path or you're on the wrong one. And I know that that seems hard and extreme, but I really believe that. And so we live that way. We live that way that every single day we're making sure we're on the right path. That we are doing the things that get results.

And it doesn't mean we don't make mistakes or falter or get confused, but we pay attention to the signs. And when the signs are off, and like in this question, that is, it's a sign, a sign that something is off. And so kudos to you for asking the question. Yeah, exactly. Now we just have to make the tweaks. We have to make the changes. We have to keep making those iterations so that we can continue to move forward.

Rachel Denning (56:00.717)
and to get the results that we want. And it is possible, but we just have to be diligent and we have to be careful. Because if you listen to the wrong person, you are gonna get... It's so ugly and so sad. It can get ugly. And not that you're, even in this case, like I could tell she's not a bad person. She literally just got misled. And it's sad. And now she's been convicted on like four counts of child abuse. Yeah. So...

And that's just the beginning of all the misery that's happening behind the scenes. It's so sad. So just just change. And yes, I say that simply just change. Like if you want to say married, like you love to say, you can't change destinations overnight, but you can change direction immediately. And when we're talking about the past, we can change direction now. So if you've been descending, just stop right now, turn around, face uphill and start climbing. And and Rachel got this.

She got a message recently and she shared it with me. In my 28 day challenge community. Yeah, where we're just constantly giving tools and strategies for marriage and family and they've been married 21 years. It's like this month has been like an absolute honeymoon, right? Just they're implementing these habits and strategies and it's just transforming their marriage. I read this and like it makes me giddy and so happy. I know. Yes, you're doing it. Just.

All you have to do, we know it works. Like, and it will work for you. It'll work for anyone who works the formula. Exactly. So just do it and do it religiously. Do it consistently. If you go in, you're like, no, give it a try. It won't work. If you hit and miss here and there, you know, three days a week, it won't work. But if you think, you know what, this is it. 24 seven. I'm doing this. That's who I am. That's who I am. This is how I roll. This is the new me. I'm doing this.

And you don't have to tout it. You don't have to tell everyone about it. Just do it. Let your results through talking. This will change everything. And you'll go from suffering and misery and so much pain to literally after 21 years or more, wherever you are, feeling like you live in a honeymoon. And it's amazing. It's worth every effort. But start with you and be that change and just go.

Rachel Denning (58:25.677)
I love it. Get intense. Get crazy about it. Like it's your only obsession. That's it. Become obsessed. Right here on my computer, I literally have a post -it note that I look at every day that says, obsess about the things you want. And in this case, you want to destroy your marriage? Get obsessed with it. And mostly that obsession has a drive on improving yourself. And watch what happens. It'll be amazing. It can happen far too anything. Love you guys.

If you have more questions, or you need help, or you need coaching or tools or strategies, that's what we do every day, all the time. That's part of our life's work, is to share the things that just work. Love you guys, reach out for it.

Rachel Denning (59:17.965)
you