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Rachel Denning (00:01.39)
Hey everybody, good afternoon, good evening, good morning, good wherever you are. Welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. This one is going to be good. Mostly because Rachel is here with me and she's got something to say, which she always has something wonderful to say and I love having her perspective. So we wanted to continue a discussion. I'm calling it the...

The sex school. The sex school. Oh, the sequel. Yeah, love it. Because I wanted to share in the episodes, two episodes ago, I wanted to share at least my perspective. The man's perspective. The man's perspective. And I thought it'd be helpful. And in that, I have to make another disclaimer here. The only perspective I'll ever have is my own. And as much as I try to understand other people's perspective, it's at least...

from my perspective, haha, it's impossible for me to fully and completely understand the perspective of another person. Two people can grow up in the same house and have a different experience. Two people can work in the same company and have a different experience. Two families can grow up in the same community and have a completely different experience. We're just so different and we interpret things differently, we give meaning differently. And so in my, and I hope you feel the goodness of my intent.

that I just wanna share my perspective in the hope that others have had similar experiences or thoughts and that it would at least be insightful to understand a person's perspective. And so in all this, that's ultimately all we can do is share our own perspective and like, hey, this is what has worked for me. These are the thoughts I've had. These are the feelings and experiences I've had. And maybe that helps you understand other people or at least invites the question of, huh, I wonder if other people experience it that way.

And so I wanted to share that perspective. Well, and I just want to add here that I think this is very important. We have to remember this in all of our communications, in our relationships, in communities, in the world. We have to be willing to share our perspectives the best way we know how, although imperfectly, and be willing to listen to the perspectives of others, knowing that they're doing the best they can, even if it's done imperfectly. That's a key to public discourse. And unless, if we lose public discourse, we lose the ability.

Rachel Denning (02:21.71)
to progress and grow and understand people. So that right there needs to always be kept in mind. The other key point, well the other thing I wanna say is like I was super proud of Greg for doing this podcast because I knew it's something we've talked about for a long time. Sex has been an issue because it's been an issue in our marriage. And we've learned about it and we've studied it and we've researched it and we've grown significantly in it.

because at one point it was an issue. And so I was proud of him for sharing this, even though I knew he was sharing it from his perspective only. Now he's aware of my perspective, he's aware of a woman's perspective, but obviously like he's saying, he can't fully understand it because it's my perspective. He shared his perspective and the point in that last podcast was to share the man's perspective. The woman's perspective was not fully represented and that was on purpose at that point.

Figuring probably he knew at some point we'd be doing this podcast. So that's why we're here now to share the woman's perspective and not just that, but to share how we combine the man's perspective and the woman's perspective to create the marriage perspective, I guess, or the, you know, the, the oneness perspective, because ultimately, ultimately that's what we're going for. Because if we only focus on, well, this is my point of view, or this is my point of view, we never create real oneness because.

we're always looking at it from our own point of view. And so we have to be able to understand ourselves, understand our spouses as best as possible, and then figure out what is it that works for us in order to make our marriage everything we want it to be. And then we're trying to put ourselves out here a little bit in the hope that it will be helpful to some couples. I know for some it'll be totally unique and different experience and you'll be like, oh, that doesn't work for us. And okay, hopefully we share something that at least gets you thinking about it.

But my suspicion is after having talked and worked with a lot of people that we're having some experiences that at least you can relate to and maybe we'll share some insights. And I got quite a bit of good feedback. It was awesome and people were, hey, thankful, it was helpful. Then I have a couple of really honest comments and I'm really super grateful for those comments that were essentially saying, yeah, you don't quite get this. And I'll be the first to say, yeah, I don't get it. And I could spend my entire life studying.

Rachel Denning (04:46.83)
Topic and I know still not fully get it the one thing we can absolutely be certain of is that the more we learn the more we realize how little we know So I'll be the first to raise my hand say yep I don't get it, but I'm trying and I want to share some some perspectives and insights I hope are helpful and so that's that's where we're coming today exactly so I had a bunch of thoughts and now I'm not sure where to go right now, but I

What we did get, okay, so when I listened to his podcast, because I was actually on vacation when he made this podcast, and I listened to it while I was on vacation. And again, I was super proud of him. It took a lot of courage. Greg Denning is bold, but it took courage for him to do a podcast about sex from a man's perspective because he knew he would get some flack about it. He knew that. I knew that. That's why it's been something we've been hesitant to speak up about. It is a sensitive topic for a lot of people.

And so we understood that. Now when I listened to it, there were a few points, a few things that he said that I was like, right there I would have added, you know, something. I would have added this. And that's what we're gonna go through today, is the things I would have added, the things I would have said. Now, like he said, he got some great responses. And one of them that we got.

they outlined a bunch of things and I was looking through it. I'm like, yeah, that's actually the thing, the moments when I would have added information. I would have added the woman's perspective there. So we're going to go through, I think we'll start out with that. We'll just go through this response that we got and address these points because they were the same points I would have added. Which is awesome. Which is awesome. And that's, that's the beauty of this.

I'm a man, you're a woman. And I'm like, hey, I see, this is how I see things. And you're like, oh, this is how I see things. And that open communication is what makes things awesome and sometimes difficult. Yes. It naturally makes things difficult. It is, it's not easy to be vulnerable. It's not easy to figure out yourself because that's a whole part of it. Figuring anything out in life includes figuring out yourself. That includes.

Rachel Denning (07:01.422)
So how can you have a great sexual relationship in your marriage or any sexual relationship at all sometimes if you don't even understand yourself? So having these conversations includes figuring yourself out, trying to figure your spouse out, and then trying to figure out how you actually make it work in real life, right? Okay, so we're gonna go through this. Maybe we just go through it point by point and I'll just... So I'm gonna share a little bit about this comment.

So, you know, thanks for the podcast. The one you did about sex, I know your intentions were good, but I'm wondering if you've done as much research as you claim to understand the sexual dynamics in marriage. Well, we have done a lot of research. I'll just say that. Obviously, there's always more to learn, but we did this with everything in life. We are not gonna be out there sharing a podcast or our opinion about something if we've read one book. Trust me. We don't, that's just not how we do it.

So we've read multiple books about sex from multiple perspectives, from multiple psychologists. And then talked to personally lots of couples. And then personally talked to, yes, many couples. Greg has counseled many couples. And then of course our own personal experience. So this isn't just, oh, this is what we think. That's not how we approach things. So we have done a lot of research. Even...

if it did not necessarily come across that way in Greg. And that was one thing I would have added. He did not emphasize enough that this was not just Greg Denning's personal experience and personal opinion. Now his experience is common across men to a greater degree, although not entirely just men. For some women, they may relate more to that viewpoint. And some men may not relate at all. We get that.

We have to operate with some kind of generalities. But if you look on a graph of in general, yes, Mormon in general will probably relate to his perspective than not. But what he shared was not just his opinion and his perspective, but is based off the scientific research we have done. And yes, I'll just, I'll start with this. We disagree with some of the other experts out there. There's just, there's some stuff where like, yep, I disagree with that. And there's some foundation behind it and we don't just,

Rachel Denning (09:27.086)
just disagree, just to disagree. Again, we try to be really thoughtful about this and dig in, but just because an expert's out there promoting it is famous and popular. And expert, what you're trying to say is not all experts agree on the scientific research. So yes, we might read an expert or listen to an expert and say, well, actually this one over here.

We try to back up our disagreements with other proof. It's not just, oh, well, we disagree, so obviously that's wrong, because we disagree. No, we try to find, if we feel like, no, I don't think that's entirely accurate, then we look for evidence somewhere else. Now, some people might say that's confirmation bias, but I think that ultimately there's this level of truth that you're searching for based off of your personal experience, because personal experience is also true. Your experience in life,

has a level of truth because you've experienced it, right? So it's happened. So if you can see how that plays out in life and how there is some scientific evidence to back that up, then it doesn't mean that your experience is wrong, if that makes sense. Anyways, okay. So I think that you're lacking some perspective and that this episode perpetuates a damaging paradigm for women and men around their sexuality. Well, that definitely was not the intent at all.

and we'll get into that for sure in this episode to explain more why that is the case. But I do just wanna say it was difficult for me to learn the things about men and Greg that he shared in the last episode. That was part of my journey. I had a hard time finding that out about men. To me, it was something that was difficult to grasp, to understand.

to comprehend, and I was very resistant to it, but I do know, and again, we're gonna explain all of this here, so don't jump to conclusions, I do know that when I truly began to understand fully how men operate biologically, physiologically, psychologically, that that's when things really began to change for us, and our marriage relationship,

Rachel Denning (11:48.75)
became so much better because our sexual relationship became so much better. And I truly believe right now, like I will preach this till the cows come home, I truly believe that the sexual relationship is the keystone of a fantastic marriage. If you don't have a great sexual relationship, I don't think it's possible to have a great marriage relationship. And you might think it's great,

But trust me, there's a whole nother level you can go to if you figure out this piece about sex. Now, further in this comment here, I was talking about duty sex. No, of course not. There's nothing I'm talking about here that has anything to do with duty sex.

Nor does it have anything. Meaning you're just doing, we better have sex because it's our duty. Yeah, it's my duty to my husband. He has this need for sex, so I'll do my duty and have sex with my husband. No, we're not talking about that at all. I don't believe in duty sex. Nor do I believe in duty abstinence on the side of the husband, who out of respect and love for his wife, abstains from sex with her because he feels an obligation. I don't believe in that either. So we're talking about something better than that.

higher than that that takes your relationship to a whole other level. That's what we're talking about. Okay, perpetually damaging paradigms about sexuality. We want to clear that up because that is certainly not what we're trying to promote here at all. Can I jump in here? I remember when Rachel and I were going through this journey and I remember, and I can think of many instances when I was working with.

men or women or couples and there was this resistance that Rachel talked about, this resistance to fully understanding the other side. Cause it's totally different, it's totally foreign and sometimes it's disruptive or disturbing to your reality. There was a time when what Greg shared in the last episode felt very disturbing to me. I thought it was somehow wrong.

Rachel Denning (14:03.725)
and I thought he had problems, he had issues that he needed to deal with and it had nothing to do with me. It was his issue.

Man, that's this, it's so difficult because there's, there's some realities behind this that unless again, a woman, a woman can't understand it because she's never been a man, just like a man can't understand what it is to be a woman because he's never been a woman. And yet I have to seek to understand it even if I don't get it, even if I don't agree with it, even if I don't like it, even if I don't like it.

If Rachel works like this and then we start figuring out, it's like, are other women like this? Did they experience that? And we start getting this, you know, this consensus, a pulse of like, yeah, this is a reality of experience for many women, not all, but many. And then for us, we always do our research. Is this psychologically sound? Is this biologically accurate, right? Or is there something that's off that actually needs to be fixed? We're always looking for that. And.

all day long I can resist it because I disagree with it or I don't like it or that's not my experience but that doesn't help me. In the end that doesn't change it. No matter how much you resist it, it does not change the reality of what is. And until we can accept what is, searching for what truly is, the real truth of things and then learning how to work with that instead of resisting it, that's how we...

create transformation. That's how we create enlightenment, right? Sexual enlightenment in our marriage, right? That's how it happens. Okay. So right here, these are some of the beliefs that were proposed. What's the word there? Supposedly perpetuated in the podcast. Again, we get that this is just a response. That's fine. We appreciate this response because these are the points I also would have addressed.

Rachel Denning (16:04.237)
And it gives me a chance to go, well, I didn't quite mean it like that. Let me clarify. Or actually, I might have said, you know what? I actually do mean it like that. I'm going to hold my ground. Well, and this is another little side tangent here. This is another way to point out that very often when people are speaking, one of the biggest challenges with communication is that we don't necessarily give the meaning, the word, give the words the meaning that the person means behind them, but the meaning we.

have for those words based on our personal past experience, our upbringing, our paradigms, vocabulary words have those meanings. So Greg could say a word and it could have one meaning for him and a totally different meaning for me based on my childhood experiences or where I went to school or all these different things. So sometimes that's what I know. This is an example. Greg in the last podcast used the words modest and immodest. I know for some people,

Those words are trigger words because they have like a religious connotation or whatever else. Like that comes into play even though that word could mean something totally different for Greg or whatnot. So, and we'll get to that in a minute. Okay. Instance. For instance, the beliefs that women are not as sexual as men. Right there. Yes, you're right. Some women are more sexual than men. But if you were to study,

the biology of men and women in general on a graph, more men are usually more sexual than most women. That's scientifically sound there. But yes, some women are more sexual than men and or as sexual as men. Great. That's just how it is in my mind. In the research. I agree. Okay. Wives have a duty to be sexual with their husbands to keep him from looking at porn or having a fair.

Now that is not the exact wording that Greg used in his podcast because I listened to it closely and if he had said that wording, I would have smacked him when I got home because... I would have smacked myself. Because that is not the case and nor do we believe that. But what we do believe...

Rachel Denning (18:16.749)
Well, depending on the way you define duty, men and women do have a duty to care for the needs of their spouse simply by the fact that you've made a long -term commitment to the well -being and health of another person. So yes, do we have a duty to our spouse? Yes, depending on how you define duty. Now you might use a different word. You might use the word responsibility or an obligation or a...

or commitment. Or commitment, right? I made a commitment to you when we got married. To care for you. To care for you. And that includes meeting some of your needs. Or, yeah, as meeting as many of your needs as I am possible to meet without damaging my own well -being, right? That could be defined as a duty. Now, does that include sexual duties? Well,

I think if you understand truly the nature of a man and how that compares equally to the nature and needs of a woman, then yes, it could include sexual duties. Now, again, I'm not talking about duty sex. We're going to get to this here, right? Your duties. That statement right there can be so misconstrued and misunderstood. Exactly. It can't, unless you fully understand what we're talking about. Does Greg have a duty?

to listen to me and support me. Well, depending on how you define it, yes. If he's made a long -term commitment to me and he cares about me and he wants the best for me, then if I need someone to help me, support me, listen to me, that is one of his duties in a way. That's one of the ways he supports me. That's one of the ways he shows he cares for me. And let's walk through that scenario and maybe articulate here, Rach, that...

And I know many women will relate to this because you shared it and people are like, yeah, that you have a need to talk to me and to be heard. Yes. I am.

Rachel Denning (20:21.453)
I consider myself to be a more logical, left -brained, almost masculine type person, woman, right? In school, I love to hang out with the guys. I still love to hang out with the guys and talk business. Like, that's my nature. It really bothers me when I get very emotional about things because it's not logical. It doesn't make sense. And yet the feminine side of me has some, in...

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. He talks about the wave and he talks about the ocean of emotion. I have that and sometimes my wave or my well gets drained and I have this physical, almost biological, physiological need to talk to my husband. Now it's my husband because he is my best friend. Some women have other best friends they can talk to.

Maybe they talk to their mom, maybe they talk to their girlfriend. I personally don't have that as much in my life, almost on purpose because my husband's my best friend and we travel the world together and we do everything together. So my need is directly tied to him. I have to talk to him sometimes when life gets overwhelming, when I get drained, when I get super emotional. My only outlet for resolving that that I have found so far.

which still frustrates me to this day, is to talk to him. I have to have this orgasm of communication. And it drives me crazy. It is all consuming. When I'm in that space of life is draining on me, like I'm just overwhelmed. I'm, I'm worried about all the problems in the world and solving world hunger and pandemics and you know, everything else. I have to talk to my husband about it.

And if I don't talk to him, it's like I can't think about anything else. I can't do anything else. I can't go about my normal routines. I'm more irritable, I'm more angry, I'm more upset, I'm more easily bothered until I have that communication with him and I resolve those feelings, I release those feelings, and then I feel better. When I understood, when I could finally understand that that's what sex was like for...

Rachel Denning (22:46.573)
my husband, wow, that totally switched my paradigm because then I realized if I had to go, if I felt like that and I had to go a week or two weeks or a month without having that emotional release, I would go crazy. And yet how many women, and me included because I used to do this,

said, you know what, I'm too tired, I'm too busy, I'm too this, I'm too that, I'm too, I just, I'm sorry. We just can't have sex because I can't handle it. But if he did the same thing to me, if he came home from work, and I get it that some husbands do this, I totally get it, this is a thing, this is real. They come home from work and the woman needs to talk to him, the woman needs to communicate it, the woman needs to be supported by him and he says, I've been dealing with people's problems all day.

I just can't listen to you. I just don't have the time energy.

emotional strength to listen to you. Okay, that's what it's like on both sides. So yes, we need understanding. Men need to understand what it's like for women that this is a thing and women need to understand that this is what it's like for men. Except for women, it's the emotional connection, it's the talking, it's the intimate conversation and for men it's the sex. Now that used to bother me of course because I thought it's all physical and it's just lustful and it's just...

You know, it just has to do with some deal with it. You just need to you know get off and You could do that with anything or anyone or whatever like why am I special? Why am I important? It's just a thing you need and how does that involve me and That hurt like that was painful for a while to think that that was what it was like but

Rachel Denning (24:44.365)
Just because it's a biological need or physiological need doesn't mean that when it's done in the right way...

it's not also an emotional need. Now, again, Greg mentioned it before. All of this can become twisted. All of this can become perverted. And that's where a lot of the problems in marriage come from is when we don't understand this about each other and the husband says, well, just go to your girlfriends all the time and talk to them, which in the long term is, in the short term, that can be fine. In the long term, that can be damaging to the relationship in that you're not.

you're not bonding more. The woman's need to talk to the man actually is a great thing because it helps men and women to bond. Same with sex. Intellectually, yes, I'm gonna get to that, intellectually and emotionally. But a man's need to have sex with a woman is also just as powerful to help them bond because it brings them together physically and emotionally, right? So both are needed. Both are key to the relationship and yet if we don't understand it, we tell him,

just deal with it. And he tells us, go talk to your girlfriends, and guess what? You're not getting closer, you're getting further away from each other.

And so, like putting this into a real scenario, I get to coach people. I listen to people and I help solve problems and I'm working like many men are. And we're working, working, working. And then I come home and I'm like, oh man, wow, I had the day, right? And then she's like, I really need to talk to you. I have to talk to you. And I'm like, sorry babe. You're too busy. I'm tired. You're too exhausted. No, I can't.

Rachel Denning (26:27.661)
And so at that point we have to honestly ask the question, do I have a, and I know this word duty might trigger some of you, do I have a commitment? Do I have a duty? Do I have a responsibility? Do I have a care enough privilege to say, you know what, I'm going to level up here as man and as a husband. And yes, for me personally, you guys get to decide where that lands for me. Yes. For Greg Denning, I have a duty, a commitment responsibility that I chose that I keep choosing to yes help.

meet Rachel's needs and not say, what's wrong with you? Just deal with it. Exactly. Go write in your journal. Right. Go whatever. And I get it from a man's perspective, that idea right there of having to meet a woman's emotional needs and to listen to her talk for as long as she feels like she needs to talk. Like that can be very - And not offer solutions. That's so hard. And not offer solutions while she's talking. Let me just fix that, babe. That feels like a weight of responsibility, right? So -

It goes both ways. Now, I'm gonna go on here. Have a duty to be sexual with their husbands to keep him from looking at porn or having an affair. No, it's not your duty to do that. It's his responsibility to not look at porn and to not have an affair because he's made a commitment. But, you do need to be aware it's going to be a lot easier for him to not look at porn and to not have an affair if he's having great sex with you. That's just a matter of fact right there. And,

Why would you not want to be having grade six? Now we'll get into some of that because I get it, I've felt that before. But that's just truth. It's going to be easier for, it's just going to be easier for a man. And we're going to get more into the biology of why this is true. This isn't about a man being good or bad or sensual or lustful and not able to control himself. It's not about that, okay? I'm going to make a comparison that I think you'll get having to do with food. But.

We need to understand it's just going to be easier for him to not do those things that he doesn't want to do when his sexual needs, and they are needs, are being met in the marriage relationship. That's just how it works. Read the next comment and those two go together around this point. About the modesty? Yep. Okay, women have a duty to dress modestly to keep men from thinking impure thoughts. No.

Rachel Denning (28:53.261)
Women don't have a duty to dress anyway. I believe women can dress however they want. But women should at least have an awareness of how men are biologically...

hardwired, okay? Every single person in this world is biologically and physiologically wired for certain responses and actions, whatever behaviors, okay? It's just like sucking reflexes on babies. Babies have sucking reflexes so they don't die. Without a sucking reflex, they would never nurse and they'd never live.

So we're biologically hardwired. Now, whether you believe in God or whether you believe in evolution, I happen to believe in both. Um, this is just how it works. I know, I know. I've never, I haven't told anyone that. I believe in evolution. Okay. And I'm going to bring it out here because I study all of this stuff from an evolutionary standpoint. Men are biologically physiologically hardwired to be visually drawn.

to certain images so that they are physically and biologically drawn to women. Without that, guess what? This world would be filled with wandering men and...

single women at home. Okay? Because they'd come create the babies and then they'd take off and explore the world because men want to be adventures. They want to be out solving problems and conquering things and you know like that biologically that's how they operate. Without the sexual drive to keep them drawn to women this world would not exist the way that we currently have it.

Rachel Denning (30:48.429)
That's scientific fact there. Now, if you believe in God as well, which I do, I believe it was designed that way on purpose. This wasn't by accident, okay? So the biology behind this is, yeah, women can dress however they want, but you need to be aware that men are physiologically stimulated. I'm gonna use that word even though that might be a bothersome word to some people.

by certain visual images, cleavage, legs, butts, things like that. So if you're going to dress in certain ways, great, just know what it does to men. Now, does that mean men are at fault? No, they're no more at fault for that than you are for being aroused to eat a cookie when you smell hot chocolate chip cookies baking in the oven.

You're biologically wired, especially when you're hungry, to respond to a certain way, to certain smells or sights, to want to eat food. Now what you do...

Rachel Denning (31:58.189)
how you act or what you do with your thoughts when you, when you smell, when you drive by, when you drive by Krispy Kreme, okay, and you smell that Krispy Kreme and you think, Oh, that smells so good. Is that wrong? No, that's just a biological response. Now, whether or not you decide to stop at Krispy Kreme and get a donut, that's your choice. And whether or not you keep thinking about Krispy Kreme and how Krispy and cream and delicious that is, that's a choice.

What you do after the physiological response is your choice. So what a man does after he's physiologically stimulated, aroused by certain images is a choice. That determines the character of the man. But it happening is biology. And he has no more control over that, unless you're getting metaphysical, which we're not getting into metaphysics right here. He has no more control over that than you do over your...

salivating mouth when somebody's cooking barbecue and you haven't eaten for two days. Okay, that's the biological comparison we need to understand. And once I understood that, that changed everything for me because before that I felt like, I don't know, I guess I felt, well I didn't understand it, so I felt like, oh my husband must not love me or my husband must not be attracted to me or my husband must be.

a pervert or something like that because why would certain visual images create that response in him? But when I understood it was more like hunger and what he chose to do after that was the true test of his character, then that's when I was able to better work with what is rather than resisting it. Does that make sense? And having experienced this as a young man starting...

for many, many boys and men, it starts in early puberty, start noticing and start getting like outside of choice, it's a physiological response and you talk to young men and they're like, oh yeah, holy cow. And understanding that, having experienced that, I thought it might be helpful for women to try to understand that perspective. So do they have a duty to dress a certain way? Are women responsible for men's...

Rachel Denning (34:23.885)
actions or reactions? No. But I think... Having at least the awareness... ...of how it works. ...of how it might influence your choices or at least your awareness of like, hey, if I dress or act a certain way, it could cause physiological responses and thoughts, ideas, actions in men. Just the awareness. And some men don't control themselves. Yes. At least being aware that that's the physiological response in many men.

And so the type of man you're around may determine the action that he takes. And that, again, it's just another way of being wise, being aware of how the world works. And there's nothing wrong with that. So yeah, you don't, it's not your duty to be modest per se, and it's not your duty to control man's thoughts. That's his duty. But you do need to be aware that if you bake the cookies and someone smells it, they might want to eat the cookies. And they might feel at least desirous to eat the cookies. And some will feel driven.

And some will feel drunk. And following this more, like, there's a big difference between driving past the donut shop and taking up full -time residence in the donut shop and trying not to eat donuts. Right? You're setting yourself up. And again, one of the ideas I wanted to share last time and reiterate this time is let's make good things easy and the bad things hard.

Does that make sense? Like, let's make your home a donut shop with your wife, right? So with your spouse set up that way and then make it make really good sex with your spouse, easy and wonderful and make any temptations outside of that, make them really hard. Why not make it easy for us to be our best selves and hard, really hard to be our worst selves. I'm going to add here cause I get it for some women that that idea right there feels like another burden.

on their shoulders. Another responsibility they have to take care of their man and the last thing they want to do is have someone else to take care of. They want someone who's going to take care of their needs. They want someone who's going to support them and help them and I'm going to talk about that in a minute because that's a real deal. That's a real thing and the solution we are suggesting is something that makes it so it doesn't feel like that. It doesn't feel like a burden. It doesn't feel like your husband has more needs you have to take care of.

Rachel Denning (36:47.053)
And if you don't, he's gonna end up having a affair or looking at porn. That's not what I'm talking about. This isn't about some sort of guilt -ridden, heavy burden you have to bear as a woman to keep your man from falling into sin and temptation. But, the other side, again, the man's side, I'm gonna bring this up from so, so, so many conversations I've had and confessions and people admitting things. Many.

many men and again, I'm, this is so hard. You guys understand how hard it is to say this, but I'm just going to say it. I've had so many men tell me it's like after battling it for so long and never having sex and never having anything, I finally gave in to porn or gave in to adultery or I had a man again, I'm not, I'm not saying this right or wrong. I'm not condoning anything, but I've had men say after years and years of rarely ever having sex, I just, I got a divorce.

He's like, I didn't want a roommate, I wanted a wife. And I'm not condoning anything, I'm just telling you what happens. And this happens a lot, way more than just the random time here and there. It's happening so much that it was worth mentioning. And that's why I mentioned it. Because it's a reality in a lot of cases. Okay, so then the last thing here, men have a physical need for sex and the drive is all consuming. I am going to say...

Biologically, physiologically, the science shows men have a need for sex. And it is sometimes all consuming. And it is sometimes all consuming. Now, I, again, I didn't understand this and I didn't necessarily believe this until studying, learning, and at times, I have experienced this myself. Now, we have a unique lifestyle and there have been time periods when...

Greg and I have spent, I think the longest we spent away was like seven weeks. And that's when I was in the Dominican Republic and you were in the States. That for me was a transformative experience because I actually experienced this all consuming sex drive. That was, I think, the time in my life when I was consumed by thoughts of sex because we were apart for so long. Now I know this happens for Greg much sooner. This can happen after like a week or a day.

Rachel Denning (39:10.733)
But for me it took that long for it to get to that point of all consumption where I literally sometimes felt like my body was like on fire and All I could think about was sex. I couldn't think about anything else. I couldn't work. I couldn't Take care of my kids properly. I couldn't like there was nothing else I could do. I don't even know if I told you this

Rachel Denning (39:40.173)
I was all consumed. Now I've had that in varying degrees along the way, especially when we've been apart for vacations or trips or different things, when he leaves trips and whatnot. We've been apart and I've had some of that return. That is a biological fact. This isn't just something that's made up in someone's head that, oh, it's all in your head and if you just thought different thoughts, then it would go away. No, this is biology we're talking about, physiology we're talking about, chemistry.

This is real. There are chemicals produced in a man's body that cause him to feel certain ways. And until those drives are somehow released, just like with my emotional need to communicate, it doesn't go away. It's like being hungry.

and you just say, well, just stop being hungry. It doesn't work like that. Now, granted, of course, we can argue to extremes and say there's people out there who gaze at the sun and they get all their nourishment from the sun or whatever, or fast for 40 days. Yeah, I get it. But in general, for most human beings, if you go without food, the longer you go without food, the hungrier you get. And food, if you research anything about food and starvation, I mean, people...

I just listened to a podcast about a girl that escaped from North Korea. All she thought about was food all the time and people said, oh, you're so brave. You escaped from North Korea. She's like, I escaped because I was hungry. I wanted food. So it becomes all consuming. Now that's the same for a man with sex. Sex becomes an all consuming force in his life. Now you might hate that. You might think that's the stupidest thing ever. You might feel that that's wrong.

There's something wrong with him. He's just perverted. He's just whatever you think he is that doesn't change the reality of the biology of how it works. Even down to the simple biology of a man's body produces sperm and it has to be released within a certain amount of time. And if there's no ejaculation, the body naturally has a wet dream and gets it out during the night. And this starts with young boys in puberty. Simply because the sperm has to be ejaculated. So if it doesn't happen through sex, it happens through wet drinks.

Rachel Denning (42:01.197)
Yeah. So it literally physically has to come out. It's biology. It has to come out. So now the, obviously the thing you can do with that is be disturbed by it and just ignore it and be like, well, that's his problem. He has to figure that out or you can understand it and you can learn to work with it. So really I think that's where we get into now. Well, how do you do that as a woman?

How do you reconcile yourselves with this man's biology that drives you crazy? And what do you do? And I want to show you a vision of that it's possible to make this into a really great thing. It's possible to make this a plus in your life. And trust me, I'm telling you because it's happened to me. I was this woman who literally cried thinking,

Why does my husband have to be like this? Why does this have to be my responsibility? Because I felt that that's what it was, my responsibility to meet his needs. And I cried and I hated it and I was disturbed by it.

Not because I didn't love my husband and not necessarily because I didn't like sex because, you know, sex was great. I just felt like too much sex was too much, right? Especially because I have all these kids and I'm trying to homeschool and I'm trying to do this and I'm trying to do that and I'm trying to take care of the house and sex just feels like one more thing I have to do.

Okay, I've been there, I've got it, I understand that. But it's possible to turn this into something that's beautiful, that's something you want to do, something that doesn't feel like an obligation but it's instead like an opportunity or a privilege, and something that when you take that approach to it makes your marriage so much better. Like, better than you even imagine possible.

Rachel Denning (44:12.045)
And the times, so one of the comments here that came back was, can you see how these kinds of ideas put most of the responsibilities on women to keep men in line and absolve men of their responsibility for their own choice? And hopefully we've articulated that well enough that that's not the case. Well, and I understand that point because yes, that's how I felt at that point, at some point in my life. It felt like it was my responsibility to keep my husband from...

being tempted, right? And so then it was no longer a matter because before that it's like, well, you know what? This is your problem. You have to make your own choices. You have to just practice self -control. You just have to deal with this and this shouldn't have anything to do with me. So I understand that.

But...

If you want to look at this from a higher level, if you want to look at this from a unified, bonded, holistic,

amazing marriage, then the answer isn't one or the other. The answer isn't you deal with your problems and I deal with mine.

Rachel Denning (45:29.581)
The answer is how do we support each other? How do we show love for each other? How do we care for each other? How do we do our duties? In a loving, want to do way that actually brings us closer together, that actually unites us.

and actually makes our marriage super sexy hot and awesome, right? That's what we want, ultimately, and that's what we're trying to teach. Now, if you're okay with just having the marriage you have that's, you know, we have sex once in a while and that's fine, and we get along mostly and that's fine, and that's okay. Not everyone needs or wants the higher level marriage. I get that.

I think everyone should have it, but not everybody necessarily wants to do that or has the time, energy, effort to invest in that. But if that is something you want, then this is how you get there because sex is the keystone. And in sex, we've talked about this in our marriage course. We have a whole module on sex in our marriage course, extraordinary family life marriage course. And in that we talk about sex is more than just the actual

sex part, it's more than just the penetration, right? It includes the intimacy and the intimate conversation with the woman. That's a part of sex. Because when a man learns to meet a woman's needs, right? Her emotional needs, her needs, and for me, you, maybe it's different. Maybe you don't totally relate with that need right there. But if you, if the man can learn to meet those emotional needs that the woman has and to cherish her and to listen to her and to adore her and to love her,

then that right there is a key part of the circle of sex, right? Cause sex is a circle. Which for me and Rachel, I take that on as my duty, my responsibility, my commitment, because I love Rachel and I want to meet those needs. And that's that circle she's talking about as I lean into that willingly, not duty, cause she doesn't want me to duty listen either. Right. If I'm going to go ahead, babe, talk to you cause that's my duty.

Rachel Denning (47:45.421)
Duty listening is as lame as duty sex. Exactly. And so I choose to lean in and listen. I choose to meet her needs because I know those are the things that she wants and needs. And so I'm like, yeah, a willing level, even if I don't feel like it, that's part of being a man. Exactly. I'm going to level up here and I'm going to meet those willingly. And then she's like, wow, thank you. And so she, on turn, willingly says, wow. Exactly. Let's get together. Right.

And when I feel totally loved, cherished, adored, and listened to, and that my needs are legitimately met with sincerity, not because of expectation, because that's not how it works, then I willingly want to be with my husband and give myself to him. Out of love, out of adoration, because he cares for me in the same way. So now it becomes a circle of giving and receiving instead of a circle of

duty. I guess. And I'm gonna say this here, gentlemen, a lot of you are seriously dropping the ball here. Big time. And I think I'll do a whole episode on this. A lot of you good men, either unintentionally or even sometimes intentionally, are seriously dropping the ball or at least missing out on what could be possible if you would just lean in and meet her needs and love on her and

do everything you could do to meet her needs and love her and give her like listen to her willingly and and help her out and and Like Rachel I say we have lots and lots of open tabs Women have all these open tabs like oh, you're gonna help close some of the tabs I'm gonna do I'm gonna say this for another episode, but some of you are are living way below

privileges and opportunities and and some awesomeness you could enjoy Because you're kind of unconscious of these things or at least not meeting them, but that's for another day, okay, so We're gonna keep going here with this because the comment continues it also puts women women in a caretaking role rather than being a choosing partner and What woman after spending her day caring for the children's needs wants and then? Has to go manage her husband's needs?

Rachel Denning (50:14.381)
Yes, exactly. I get that. That's not what we're promoting. That's not what Greg was trying to share. Again, he was sharing the man's perspective about how he feels. That doesn't take into this right here, which is the woman's perspective, which is a legitimate perspective. I felt this very thing. Like I've been taking care of people all day. People have been hanging on me all day. Like I'm not a touchy person, right? This has been a thing. I'm not a touchy person. So my touch.

Needs were overfilled every day with my kids. Overdrawn. Overdrawn, right. Like I was beyond needing to be touched with all of my kids. And then my husband wants to have sex. And I'm like, the last thing I need is for someone to touch me. I get it. This is legit.

But when the problem here is believing that because men have a need for sex, and unfortunately that need for sex has to be fulfilled in you, the woman, because you're his wife, right? That's what it feels like. You have a need for sex, that means I have to fulfill that need, you know, unless you wanna get weird. Then that's another obligation I have. That's another duty I have to meet someone else's needs. Now,

That feels heavy, that feels burdensome. I get that, because I felt that. And even from my perspective, that feels unfair. Well, unlike this. If it's that way. If men are honest, I don't think they're thrilled or fulfilled with duty sex. No, they're not. And that's not what I'm promoting is, well, you know, it's your duty and yeah, you're tired, but just fulfill your husband's sex needs because that's what he needs. No, I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about, because you're right, they said it's just the...

wrong framing of the relationship of sex. I agree, that is the wrong framing of the relationship of sex. What I'm talking about, and again, this is challenging, because legitimately for many women, they don't want to give sex to their husbands because their husbands aren't giving them what they need. That's true.

Rachel Denning (52:23.149)
But I know for me, and this was true for us in our relationship, he didn't fully understand what I needed. I didn't fully understand what he needed. And so there was a lot of miscommunication, a lot of hurt, a lot of misunderstanding. But I know what we're trying to say here is once I was able to better understand how a man operated physically, mentally, emotionally, biologically, physiologically.

that it helped me to better be aware of how to work with those needs. Same with him. Yeah. The opposite is absolutely true. Once he was, well, as I came to understand you and what was, you guys, you got to, you get this. As I was trying to wrap my mind around it, I was like, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. You're saying it. I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. It's just so different.

And she's like, I need this. I'm like, I don't need that. How could she even need that? What? How can that be such a big deal? Right. But as long as I resisted it, or as long as I wouldn't understand it, it kept us separated. It was a wedge between us. I have this perfect story. Actually, we were living in Morocco. I don't even know if you remember this. We were living in Morocco and we had an opportunity to be intimate and we were up in our bedroom.

and you were caressing me and kissing me and I was just talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking, talking. And after about like 10 or 15 minutes of this while he's caressing and kissing and all this, he gets up and walks out into the bathroom and I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm not in the mood anymore because you just keep talking and I'm like, I'm finally in the mood because I kept talking.

And luckily she was talking herself into the mood and it was talking me right out of it. I was like, I was talking myself into intimacy because in my brain I had all these tabs open and I was trying to close all the tabs. Now he didn't have to, this is the funny thing. He did not have to, he didn't respond the whole time. He didn't say one thing the whole time, but I talked and talked and talked and closing tabs the whole time until I was like, right until I was like,

Rachel Denning (54:41.933)
Wow, I feel so much better. I'm ready now. And at that point, he was like, she's not even interested. I'm done. I'm out of here. Now luckily, we both had enough sense to figure out what was going on and were able to be intimate because I said, well, wait, no, I was just closing my tabs. I was just clearing my brain out so I could get out of my head and into my body. And I ignorantly was like, this is going nowhere. Dead gum it.

Now he knows better when I'm talking, he lets me talk because he knows it's helping me get in the mood. Now that's a simple, silly example right there of the what's going on mentally with men and women, physically, emotionally, biologically. Okay. But we have to learn to understand those things and to work with them. Now the amazing thing is like in that case, if he's sitting there listening to me, okay, great. Like some of us,

because of our conditioning, we can't talk if he's caressing us because we're like, oh, he's gonna wanna have sex. I can't, oh, like, I gotta figure out how to get out of this or figure out how to, you know, do something because he wants to have sex, because he's caressing me. If you see this as an opportunity, he's rubbing you, he's, of course he's gonna wanna have sex, but just, you know, just accept that as an act of love. But if he's caressing you, he,

Let those dopamines come out. Caressing is a good thing. And if you can talk and he's listening and you have his attention, even yes, okay, he's thinking about other things, but he's there to listen. Use it as an opportunity to de -stress, to have your needs met. And if it leads to sex, there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes I notice I spent so much time, energy, effort, thought trying to get out of sex.

that ultimately ended up damaging my relationship that I realized it just wasn't worth it. So in the beginning, even if I didn't necessarily want to, yeah, I start, maybe you could call it duty sex, but I started saying, you know what, I'm just gonna say yes, because it takes the same amount of time, energy, and effort to have sex as it does for me to think about getting out of sex and then to deal with the consequence of he's mad, I'm bothered, I'm annoyed, this, that, and everything else. Like, why?

Rachel Denning (57:02.061)
Why am I doing this to our relationship? Let's just have the sex, even if it's a quickie, because guess what? He doesn't mind a quickie. And that bonds us and helps me to recondition myself.

Rachel Denning (57:19.085)
that ultimately is improving our relationship instead of breaking it down. I remember one time...

I can't get the quote right, but I remember how powerfully it impacted me. It said, better to be desired.

than ignored.

And unfortunately, many men are ignoring their wives only because they sincerely feel there's no hope of intimate sex with them. Because a man, Greg tells me this, the more a man loves you, the more he will want to make love to you. And if you want to be adored and cherished,

then you and desired, then you have to know that's going to lead to sex and that's a good thing. Because if your man doesn't desire you, then he doesn't really love you. And if he does love you, he's going to desire you and he's going to want to be with you. So which do you want? Do you want to be ignored or do you want to be desired? Because if you want to be desired, that includes sex. And it seems like for men sometimes, well, if I can't have sex, it's...

Rachel Denning (58:28.493)
it's safer and easier for me to distance myself from her so that the pain is less. So ignoring is kind of a default option. It's how they buffer. It's how they protect themselves. Because the hardest thing for a man, again, if you get into the psychology of it, men hate being rejected. They hate being rejected. They can't stand it. And so every time you say no, that's a rejection to them. And every time you...

say no and again I'm not saying you don't have legitimate reasons and you're not you know you don't have all this stuff that's going on and men need to be understanding and men need to be understanding and I'm not saying that every time you have to say yes I'm not saying that either this isn't about you know any sort of abuse or wrong whatever I don't know the word but look you have to be able to say no to me and I have to be able to ask you.

Exactly both. Yeah that needs to exist and he but he needs to know when I'm saying no it's for a real reason and not just because I'm trying to get out of sex again because I don't understand it and I Don't get the significance or importance of it. Oh Okay, anyways, we're almost up 60 minutes we have 10 seconds. We're done sex is amazing and it can be a source of connection instead of a source of contention

make it awesome. Alright we're gonna keep going we thought we were gonna stop there but we're gonna keep going. We have more to say. We have more can you believe it? So what I guess what I want to talk about here is again we could do a whole podcast and we should do a whole podcast on men understanding women and how to meet their needs but I guess I want to talk more here about how as a woman to work with this information about men.

and how they work and how they operate and how they think and all of this, to use that to your advantage. Not in a manipulative way, but in a truly, like, my philosophy for life is that figure out how the world works, figure out the reality of existence, and then work with it. Like, you know gravity is a thing, so don't fight it, right? You're not gonna fight gravity, you're gonna work with gravity. So if you know that this is true about men,

Rachel Denning (01:00:55.725)
And if you wonder with your husband, great, this is an opportunity to have some conversations and he might be, he may not fully understand it. That's one thing. Men don't always understand this about themselves because they've never been free to, to fill it out or to figure it out because they've been conditioned sometimes to believe that, well, this is wrong or something wrong with me, or maybe I am perverted, or maybe I just need to control myself or all these different things. So there's a lot of,

understanding and awareness that has to take place for both men and women, husband and wife, in order to figure these things out. But, and this is a process, this didn't happen to me overnight, it was a period of time, a period of years where I was able to come to these realizations, understandings, insights that helped us to ultimately have a better relationship. Now again, this isn't saying it's all on the woman, it's all my duty, because there's plenty that Greg did on his side.

to better understand me and to understand things like why I cry or why I need to talk to him or why sometimes I'm not logical because I'm not and that drives me crazy too. But when he is able to understand those things and better able to meet those needs of mine, I'm more interested, more willing and more desirous to meet his sexual needs and it becomes a source of pleasure for both of us and connection.

So how do we do that? How do we get there? Well, I think first of all, for me, this is where I always start, and I think it's a great place to start. It's just to educate ourselves more, to learn more about it. Now, we did get a couple comments from people saying, look up Dr. Jennifer Finlayson -Fyfe. And we have actually looked at her stuff before. We have not gone through her course, which we're like, great, we'll go through her course. We love going through courses. We love reading stuff. So both of us were like, OK, we'll look at her stuff.

I have read her emails and posts and other things before and I've had friends that have talked all about her. And from what I can tell, I've read a lot of the same book she's read and I've done a lot of the same research. And I think she has some valid points and valid perspectives. I'm interested in learning more on how much of the man's perspective she presents. That's something I would like to know. Because I know that, I know for Greg and I, if one of us was to teach about sex, I don't think it would be as...

Rachel Denning (01:03:23.117)
powerful or as holistic as both of us teaching about it. Exactly, it has to go together. Because we're able to present both viewpoints, which I think is ultimately key in creating the truly magical sexual relationship and marriage that you want to have. But I think that it's a great thing to read.

and learn from all different perspectives about sex. So we've read a bunch of books, Red Hot Monogamy is one, we've read For Men Only, For Women Only, we've read a lot of different, just psychological, clinical psychology books about sex and sex counseling and different things that even produce, or talk about gay sex and...

and all kinds of different perspectives. And I've read at least six or seven books specifically about women's sexuality and anatomy and physiology and all that. So all of that is very helpful. Learning more about your body, learning more about your drives, learning more about sex in general. All of that's helpful. So that's a place to start. The other thing... Watching chick flicks, reading romantic books. No, no.

Maybe. Well, OK, I guess your point there is doing things that you know help you to feel more aroused. Like, that's a thing. Do that. That can be helpful. But I guess what I'm saying is everything in life that we do, think, or say generally comes down to habits and conditioning. So anytime you're trying to make changes in your life, and this applies for every, this is the approach we take to everything in our life.

When you want to get different results than you currently have, you cannot achieve different results with the same level of thinking that you have now. Because the level of thinking you have now produced what you currently have. So if you want something different, you have to think differently, you have to act differently, you have to change how you view things. So whether that's making more money or having a better relationship with your kids or...

Rachel Denning (01:05:37.133)
better sex and better marriage. You have to learn to think differently. So I came across this quote a while ago and something that always comes to mind for me. It says, whatever you think, think the opposite. And so I started doing that. I started noticing when Greg would come up and hug me or touch me and my initial response would be like, oh, he's going to want to have sex. How do I get out of this or whatever. Like,

That wasn't the direct thoughts I had, but that was kind of the intentions behind my thoughts of like, oh, I need to come up with a reason of why I'm so tired or this or that or whatever. And I started noticing that, that that was happening. And I started thinking, well, wait, think the opposite. Greg's coming up. He's hugging me. He loves me. He adores me. He cherishes me. OK, that's the first, that's how it started. And then I started thinking, OK, Greg wants to have sex with me. Obviously he does.

So how can I make space in my brain, in my heart, in my schedule for that to happen instead of resisting it or trying to cut? I noticed this about myself years later. I used to spend so much, and I mentioned this already, I used to spend so much energy trying to get out of it because I was conditioned to think that it was, again, not because of a lack of love, which he took it that way, not because of a...

Because I'm coming from a place of love. Because he's coming from a place of love. I interpreted it as a lack of love. You're essentially interpreting it as a rejection of his love. And for me, it wasn't that way. That was one thing it was hard for him to understand from my point was like, no, it's not that. It's I'm feeling overwhelmed. I'm feeling tired. I'm feeling exhausted. I'm feeling like this is one more thing to do. Right? And in my mind, I was like, what in the world does that have to do with me? Right. You don't love me. You don't care about me. You don't want to be with me.

That's his interpretation. And I'll throw this in your man's perspective. And I mentioned this other one, like when a man is stressed, when I'm stressed and overwhelmed and, and all this stuff, when all my tabs are open, the most relieving, wonderful thing in the world is to connect with my wife intimately and then to have sex. And for me, that wasn't the case. When I'm overwhelmed and stressed, like I just want to maybe be alone or I don't know, take a shower or something like that. So it was this.

Rachel Denning (01:07:56.813)
misunderstanding of how to deal with stress and overwhelm and fulfill those needs or find that release. But what I'm saying is I went back to this idea of changing the way I thought about things. I literally thought, okay, I'm gonna think the opposite about this. If I'm interpreting this as one more thing I have to do, well, let me think of the opposite. This isn't one more thing I have to do. This is something I get to do.

that brings me closer to my spouse and if done the right way can relieve stress, can rejuvenate me, can help me feel better, can help me feel connected. Okay, so it started like that for me, just in simple ways of changing my thoughts and my thinking about what was happening in the day -to -day interaction.

Instead of seeing it as a negative thing that Greg wanted to have sex with me that day or was making advances on me or that was somehow encroaching on my schedule or encroaching on my time or increasing my demands, I changed the way I thought about that into this is something positive. This is something for us to invest in our relationship. This is a way for us to reconnect and to get closer. So, um...

Those are a couple of things, and I know that habitually making that a part of my thinking process over time, I think, made the biggest difference for me. And legitimately helped me to restructure my thinking and my paradigm about that. So then, so maybe at first those things felt not true, like, no, I don't really feel like this would be rejuvenating. I feel like it'd be one more thing to do. But over time, that actually became true.

So instead of it being one more thing to do, well now this is something we get to do. This is something that makes our life sexy and exciting and like a movie, you know? And we make love in the middle of the day before we go out for lunch. Like it's an exciting thing. It's a magical thing that then makes our marriage and our relationship even better. Because again, the circle of giving and receiving.

Rachel Denning (01:10:12.333)
The more I give in sex, the more I receive in adoration and being cherished and being adored and in listening. And, great, trust me, Greg will do anything for me. And I can say that honestly. And anything I ask him to do, he would do it because he adores me and loves me. But I know that that's a sacred thing. Like, that's special, that's sacred. And as a result,

I'm not going to use sex in a manipulative way. I'm going to use it in a sincere and loving way. Because I'm not using sex to manipulate him or to get him to do everything I want him to do. But I'm using it as a way for him to express love to me and for me to receive love from him.

That's what I was going to say. You're from a good man who adores his wife, is giving his love, all of everything he can for him. That involves sex and receiving that from him is receiving his, his most intense, passionate love, rejecting it. That's why it's so crushing.

women are like, men are so sensitive, they're such babies. It's true. It's like, I'm giving everything, it's like everything I feel is like, oh, just rushing at you, just pointing at you. And you're like, no. I'm too tired. Oh, geez, it feels like the biggest rejection. Yeah. Because a man needs to be needed. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (01:11:54.125)
and desired by his woman that he needs and desires. Exactly.

Rachel Denning (01:12:05.613)
Good stuff. Yes. This is awesome. Well, there's always more. There's always more. So we really do appreciate these types of responses. So if you have anything else, if you listen to this or you listen to the last one and you're like, well, what about this? What about this? Isn't fair. And then you forgot this perspective, like all of that. Great. You still think.

These guys are clueless. They don't know anything they're talking about. They need to educate themselves. It's very interesting. We've gotten that comment the last few days from quite a few different, you need to educate yourselves more. And we're like, really? Are we really that uneducated that people think we are? We are. We are uneducated. We'll be the first to say we know very little. We've spent decades researching. We've...

I barely scratched the surface. I personally know of very few people who've read as much as Rachel and I have read and yet we still be that might be because we don't know very many people. We lack experience and exposure. We need to get out a little more. We're recording this from Mexico by the way. But we we do try our very hardest to

think long and hard and to read a lot of books about something before we ever talk to a lot of dare to have an opinion about it or to make any sort of statement about it. So we do. And we always ask ourselves, is this our experience only? Is it unique to us or other people? And we try to prove ourselves wrong. How can we prove this wrong? Where is this off? Where are we not seeing clearly on this? So with all legitimacy, if you

you disagree with us, if you think we're off on something, great we want to hear it because then that gives us the opportunity to say yeah we are wrong on that or actually here's the scientific research of why we said that or believe that. And it gives us a chance to expound on what we said that maybe we didn't say it well enough to not be misunderstood. Exactly. Love it. Okay. Oh you guys this is so good and so important and we'll circle back to what Rachel said in the beginning. We wholeheartedly believe after all the research and talking sex is

Rachel Denning (01:14:20.717)
If you take a time chart of sex and a marriage, it's tiny. It's this little teeny sliver of time and marriage. It's literally, it's a moment. You have this pie chart and you're like all the time spent having sex and then all the rest of the time you spent in your marriage. It's tiny. And you're like, that is so insignificant. Right. And yet it feels like it's the opposite. It feels like for men, they're like, it's everything. And that was one of the things I had a hard time with. I remember thinking that I'm like sex is just.

Like it's just such a small part. Can't we just do without it? And I know that to you is like the worst thought ever, but I, there were times for me. Yeah, I did without it for years and those were roommates. There was a time for me in the dredges of motherhood when I thought, I just, I honestly don't know if I need sex in my life right now because I'm so overcome with everything else.

But having been on both sides of that equation, I can tell you life with sex and an incredible marriage as a result is way better than just trying to avoid it or not have it and have your man just deal with it, which in the long term, in the long term, a man dealing with no sex is not healthy psychologically, physically, mentally, emotionally. It's...

It's just a lot more difficult for him to try to be his best self without this moments of pleasure, which adds significant amounts of meaning, purpose, fulfillment, joy, wholeness to his life and to your life if you let it. Yes, those moments are magnifiers. Exactly. And obviously, we didn't talk about this.

but of course you both need to be enjoying sex. That's a whole nother topic. That's a whole nother topic. Some women don't like having sex because it's not enjoyable. They haven't learned or their spouse hasn't learned how to make it enjoyable for them. So if that's something you want to hear more about, I guess let us know. We can talk about that. So yes, there's a lot into this and we've again, we've said it imperfectly. I'm sure we've, um,

Rachel Denning (01:16:45.997)
missed things, we've misrepresented things, but hopefully this has provided some clarification and understanding and let us know where we go from here with this topic. And we're gonna have Rachel on a lot more often because we have a lot of fun things to talk about and share. We have a lot of conversations together so we might as well share them more. Every time we talk we get all excited and I just make a note, future podcast episode. Alright, love you guys, thanks for listening, thanks for being awesome people. Get out there, have a...

incredible day. Have an incredible day. Take care of yourself. Do some self -care and have some passionate sex. Okay, reach out for it.