Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:10.286)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. We are living a dream right now, this moment. Yesterday we went to Ronda, Spain, España. We left our house in Portugal and drove there. It was about three and a half hours. With our entire family, the band is back together. Yes.

So awesome. So our daughter, plus the friends. So we had 10 people. 10 people. Our daughter has been serving in the Dominican Republic. And so she came back and then we loaded up, did a big surprise for her. And then we loaded up and went to Ronda. Next morning. And it was almost 10 years ago when we were living in Costa Rica and we thought, you know what, let's move to Europe. So we started researching like where do you go in Europe?

And of course we spoke Spanish and we felt comfortable with Spanish. We're like, let's go to Spain. As we start looking, where do you live in Spain? Somehow. I don't even remember how we heard about this place called Ronda and it, I mean, I remember just seeing pictures of it and hearing about it. That's where we're going to go live. It was so magical. And then ironically, all the time we spent traveling all over the world and all over Europe, we never made it to Ronda until yesterday. Because we ended up moving to Germany instead, partly because there were one way flight or direct flights from

Costa Rica to Frankfurt, Germany. And Germany was awesome. Yeah, we loved it there. And we, you know, then we were interested in the idea of going to a place where we didn't speak the language because that was a new challenge. And that really was part of it. Like that was a new challenge for us. We wanted a new challenge. We've gotten comfortable with Spanish. We know Spanish. Of course, it would be a different kind of Spanish in Spain. But wow, what if we went somewhere where we don't speak the language? Oh, that's a little terrifying. And, you know.

Exciting and so that's what we picked was to go somewhere. Excellent point right there that I think we'll circle back to today. We all need something.

Rachel Denning (02:12.078)
I would like to articulate it like it's ever -present, which meaning you might have to change it up, but we all need something ever -present that's a little bit terrifying. Yeah. You got to have something on the horizon and once you achieve it, then you pick another thing. It's what I'm saying. So it's perpetual. You always have something that's just a little bit terrifying. That's how you know you're pushing hard enough. And I think that's how you know you're actually growing and living. And living, right. Because, and it seems...

counterintuitive especially to a lot of people who are used to living a life of comfort known comfort Well, it's seeking comfort. It's almost like that becomes your purpose. Yeah, let's seek total comfort In fact, I remember this feeling like I want to get to a place where I never had that terrified feeling Yeah, and I was wrong now we realize that's actually you know, you live like at the seeking edge Yeah seeking that yeah. Well, and you're right. It does have to be the edge You can't push too far because if you're in too much

chaos and discomfort, then it does become overwhelming and risky. Or if you're too terrified, then you're living in fight or flight, freeze mode. Your basal gain is lit up and you're just in survival mode. And that's not living either. So it's going back to the yin and yang that we love to use. It's that balance between both the known and the unknown, which is the edge essentially. That's where living happens. And so, yeah, so we decided to go to...

Good. To Germany instead. And you're right, we spent two years in Europe. We never made it to Rondo. We did go to Barcelona. But we finally made it there yesterday. And you guys, okay, some places you go and you're like, huh, that's okay. It wasn't what I anticipated. Yesterday for me, I was walking through Rondo and like, yep, this is amazing. Yeah. I, in fact, I even told Rachel, I was like, I think we should still.

live here for a time. It is stunning. The cliffs and the mountains and this ancient bridge and the old town and the haciendas and what a place. We had tapas on the street with all the Christmas lights and oh man it was magical. And so we felt like we were living a dream. Well and then I mean we still are because we then

Rachel Denning (04:37.261)
spent the night in an Airbnb on the coast. And then this morning we got up and we drove to Tarifa. Well, we were near Tarifa, Spain, and then we got on the ferry. We took the ferry across and landed in Tangier. And now we are just outside of Tangier. Overlooking, literally looking at the window right now. I can look out there and see the Bay of Tangier. Pretty sweet. So we are very excited. We're going to go explore tomorrow. Today we're doing...

work and things and we're overlanding across Morocco with our whole family and meeting up with a group and what we've been talking about is we love as a family we love the alchemist and in the alchemist he's in Andalusia Spain which is where we were and then he comes down to Tarifa and he describes in the book sitting there looking across the africa

Now I had never been to that spot and didn't realize how close it was. The Straits of Gibraltar. They're very close. Like you're sitting there and you're like, I can see Africa. It's right there. And so it was cool. I remember when I first read that book thinking, I wonder if you can actually see it or if it's like so far off or he could just sense it. But no, when you're sitting in the hills, you're like, there it is right there. There's a reason that they call it straight. The ST.

A it because that means essentially narrow and it is pretty narrow. Yeah, you can see it. It's awesome So here we are and excited about that, but we wanted to talk about today

this idea and it's going to at first it's going to sound kind of silly because we're going to talk about getting clear about what you want and then proactively pursuing what you want.

Rachel Denning (06:28.429)
And so at first you're like, of course I know what I want. But what's interesting with all the people we talk to, thousands of people across continents, when you really dig a little bit for details, most people, and I know that's a bold statement, but I'm going to hold to it. Most people are not clear about what they want. It's kind of fuzzy. If they have something, it's a little fuzzy, it's out there. And, and I think I can relate because in my own experience,

When you thought, what do you want? I never gave it any serious thought because where I was when I started this whole journey was like, why would I think about what I want? Because I don't get to do what I want in life. I have to do what I have to do. What needs to be done, right? Well, and I think that this really comes up and is relevant, especially when you're working with clients because, and I know that this is just true for life.

and it is even true of our lives, our life at times is that you get going in this rhythm, this motion of daily life where you're basically just doing what needs to be done. Of course we call it going through the motions because you're spending your time, energy, effort, thought and in a lot of ways it feels like you're trying to prop up this house of cards sometimes. You're...

Going through all these things that you feel have to be done because if you don't do them Something's gonna come crashing down. Sometimes it feels like which is often true. Yeah, right. Well, like if you just neglect Paying the bills or right so I like you know what? I don't want to pay the bills. Yeah, I want to just Chill this and watch Netflix, right? I'm gonna watch Netflix all week. Well, things are gonna fall apart. Yeah, they're gonna turn off your Netflix. Yeah

And then they're going to turn off your electricity and then your utility. Like you're going to be in trouble. So it will, it will fall down. So there is this, this side of that coin where, yeah, we all have to do things we don't want to do. But I guess today I want to talk about how do we align that so that we're moving, even as we're doing some things we don't necessarily want to do, we're actually moving towards what we want. But you make a great point. And, and we have learned through our own experience of pursuing.

Rachel Denning (08:51.469)
so many dreams that we have pursued, that those things don't go away. When you start pursuing what you want, there are still lots of things you have to do that you don't want to do to get to that stage. I think one example that's happening right now is, you know, we had this vision of, we have a vision, because it hasn't been accomplished yet, of getting citizenship in Europe, because we love Europe.

after our time here. We're in Africa now, one here in Europe. We absolutely love it and we want one of our frustrations of not being European citizens of course is that we have to operate on the Schengen visa which means we get 90 days there and then we have to leave for 90 days and that includes you know 28 countries. So we've always thought wow wouldn't it be amazing if we had

Presidency or citizenship so we could just be in Europe as long as we want and have unlimited access to exactly eight countries You can live in you can work in you can travel to so that's our vision Well in order to do that the route we took is to get citizenship in Portugal Well, trust me there have been a lot of things we have not wanted to do To work on making that process paperwork. Yeah

Lots and lots of paperwork and you know flights and embassy visits and all of these things like there's a lot of steps that have been involved that have not been fun or things we wanted to do so to say well and we had to spend you know in order to do all those things you have many thousands of dollars where you think i don't want to spend money on that but we had to right so i think great it's a great illustration there in order to get what we want there's going to be a lot of things we don't want to do.

in order to get what we want, but we're moving in the direction of what we want. Not just like I used to do and you used to do and many people do, you just acquiesce because you think, life isn't just about what I want. I just have to, we have to do all these things. So I'm just going to settle for this humdrum existence of living a life I don't want to live. And there's, there's a difference there of I'm living. So maybe the two distinctions, right? One is,

Rachel Denning (11:11.181)
I'm living a life I want to live with some necessary unwanted things in it versus I'm not living a life I want to live on just existing and all life is is a bunch of unwanted things with an occasional Friday evening party that we like. Right. Or maybe a once a month thing. Yeah. I remember, I remember hearing that often, like life is hard. Life is, you know, life is

You endure life. Life is mostly just a series of tasks that you don't enjoy doing. With an occasional enjoyment. I literally remember hearing people say that. Life is mostly just grind and hard and tasks. It's just a lot of unpleasant trees with some occasional bursts of goodness. Enjoy it. I was like, what a crap message. What a serious crap message. And I want to say no, that we...

We, all of us, everyone listening to this and most people, not all people, but most people live in a time and in a way where we can have so much more of what we want. Now, I don't want to be confused or misunderstood here where I'm saying, you know, live for yourself, be a narcissist, only do what you want, you know, be a selfish person. That's not at all. I'm not saying just do whatever you want, forget the rest of it. I hope.

that everyone listening here also wants to do good and wants to contribute. In fact, that's one of the highest human need and the highest form of self -expression is doing something that makes the world a better place. So ultimately, I think once all humans meet their needs and they're filled and whole and healthy, they want to give back.

They want to make the world a better place. So in the wanting, the highest form of wanting is wanting to do good. Right. And I think that that's actually very interesting because I truly believe that if you follow your wants and desires, it will naturally lead you through that pyramid of growth to the top. I mean, we're specifically referencing Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And, you know, the very bottom is basic needs like

Rachel Denning (13:37.357)
shelter and food and clothing. And when you begin there, so really any person can do this because even the poorest of the poor can think about, well, what do I really want? Well, I want some food. I want some clean water. I want a better living condition. You begin there and you start pursuing those things. Like, how can I make that happen? How can I improve that for my family? And we truly believe that when you do that, God and the universe conspire in your

favor to make that a reality. And then as you continue to move forward, following those wants and desires, it moves you up that hierarchy of needs until ultimately you get to what he calls self -actualization, where you then are capable and able to make the world a better place by contributing to it because you're built on this foundation of fulfilled needs, essentially.

And what's interesting about that is the, we're also referencing the six human needs and the fifth one is growth and the top one, the sixth one is contribution. So growth comes right before contribution. Like you have this drive and desire to become a better person. Why? So that you can do more good in the world. But you said something really interesting and maybe realize that the wealthy or poor, some of the wealthiest people get stuck at the lowest level.

Right. Of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And, and what it, again, this is hard to conceptualize, but you think about it. I mean, you can have all the millions and billions of dollars, but if you never move past food, clothing, and shelter, you can stuck there. Think about it. Right. I mean, all you want is like nicer clothing and all the fancy brand. Right. Brand names. Louis Vuitton. The best house and then another best house and the fancy cars and.

And you can literally get stuck in the first level, even with you have all the money in the world because you never move past desiring the basics. Right. Isn't that fascinating? Well, because, right, because there's a difference between moving from, I have no clothing that's adequate to I have, cause when you get good quality clothing, you know, it, it costs money and it should, because it's a value, valuable commodity.

Rachel Denning (16:04.365)
So there's, but then there's this point where you kind of cross this line of now you're fulfilling not a basic human need, right, of having adequate clothing, but you're fulfilling something else that's actually not fulfilling in the ultimate sense because it's perhaps it's meaning vanity or pride or something else, right? You know, now we're moving into the seven deadly sins or whatever. And so you kind of can cross that line where you think,

hey, pursuing nicer clothes, you know, I went from someone, and this is even true for us, like, you know, we grew up, and when we got married, didn't care about how we looked and what we wore and all these things. And we shopped at thrift stores. Yeah, right? And your favorite saying was, you know, I'm just covering my nakedness type thing, like, I don't care about what I wear. And so we learned for ourselves, well, no, actually there's more value in...

caring about what you wear and having good clothing that you take care of and that you invest in and it lasts and those types of things. And so that is a valuable process to go through. But then if you, and we see this a lot with a lot of people, you get stuck thinking that's the answer to my life. Because when I started dressing better, it changed my life. So that means I need to continually forever dress better. Right? And you get stuck in this loop in the same spot. Right.

Constantly chasing the next level of the lowest of that same thing exactly when reality in reality what it does is that is a principle that can be then applied to other areas of your life of like yeah, you need to move from this lower level to a higher level, but that doesn't mean that you then have to cross that line into Obsession or vanity, you know, whatever whatever that thing is. I'm not sure what to call it, but

But there is a line, there is a kind of a tipping point. Instead, what we need to do is take that principle of improvement and apply it to another human need in the hierarchy of needs. Which of course, the...

Rachel Denning (18:15.789)
And one I'm tempted to say the most important one is relationship.

But again, you have to take care of yourself. They have to all be balanced, right? It's like, I've taught this before and I know it's counterintuitive. In fact, it's even by definition incorrect. You know, priority is priority. It's like, that's the most important thing. But to live a phenomenal life as people in a family. So this is what I teach my men, to be a family man. You have to have like nine priorities. And I realize by definition it's wrong. And yet it's true.

You can't have multiple priorities, but then on the other side, you can't not. Because if one thing's the most important thing, what about all the other things that keep the one thing even possible? That's why I have the triple trifecta. I've got these nine elements that you can't neglect any of them. Because if you do, you pay for it in all the other ways. All the other areas of your life are affected negatively if you don't...

keep all nine of those things dialed in. Right. And I think that we've seen that multiple times with people. In fact, that's that is essentially what you do in your coaching is addressing that imbalance with your clients because people will do that. They do it. It's natural to pick the one thing that's important. Maybe it's for them finances, which obviously is a very common one. But even where people pick relationships, they will pick relationships to the

neglect of their finances or yeah mothers will often especially moms but sometimes dads who will Put so much into the family relationships or into their children that they neglect themselves which then becomes a Mean it has a negative impact on your overall Well being well even the ratio The way this plays out for me is if I put so much emphasis on our relationship with you and the kids that I don't spend time reading

Rachel Denning (20:21.357)
I don't spend time working on my own education. I don't spend time working on my own health and fitness. I don't spend time working enough to provide, right? I'm neglecting always saying to them like, well, I'm doing it for you guys. You guys are the most important thing in my life. Well, all of a sudden I'm becoming more and more diminished. I'm shrinking as an individual. And so I have less to offer and give. Exactly. And in some ways more dependent as well, because that then becomes a part of your identity. And it's.

there has to be this balance of interdependence, right? We each have to be strong individuals in order for our relationship to be strong and our family, our parenting relationships to be strong, because otherwise it becomes almost cancerous or parasitic, right? Where you're literally - It is parasitic to a definition. Absolutely, right. It's one organism living off of another. And I think in some ways that's -

that's what we see going on in parents are having difficulties with their children it's almost because it's become toxic if there's this toxicity there or this parents and how do you turn that into a verb? You know? But it's almost like it's their sucking life from the relationship because the parent is so

putting so much priority on their child, right? And so it becomes detrimental to both of them. And then they actually create the opposite of what they want because their relationship with their child and raising their child is the most important thing in their entire life. And I see adults do this who have grown up moved out, but they still like,

have this over unhealthy over emphasis on the relationship with their parents. And it's like, man, you're 30 or 40 or like, I'm glad you like love your parent. And they're like, yeah, but the scriptures say to honor your father and your mother, like, yes, but. It also says you should leave your father and mother and Cleveland to your spouse. It's time to separate that out. So that, you're right, that relationship can be too much and go too far.

Rachel Denning (22:42.701)
And even something wonderful like relationships gone too far becomes toxic. Yeah. Well, another thing I want to point this out too, because I think it's relevant. I think in some ways people will also make their spirituality and I know people that feel that they're spiritual or religious will completely disagree with this, but they'll put their spirituality or their religion above everything else as well in a way that from, you know,

outside perspective creates an imbalance in their life. It creates imbalance in their relationships, in their businesses, in their careers, in their marriage, in their own well -being because that becomes the highest priority of all. And of course people say, well, yeah, God is my number one priority. And I get that. But I personally believe that in order for us to be

more God -like, we have to be more balanced. God is not in balance. He has everything in perfect balance. That means everything. So in order to be more like that, we have to find more balance in our lives. It's not one thing above everything else. So yeah, even spirituality or communion with God,

has to be in balance with the other things of life. Yeah, beautiful. So, unless maybe you're a monk or a nun, but even then, we're family people. I've read these beautiful books, the Book of Joy and the Hawk and the Dove, which was a fictional. I read these books and I studied the life of St. Francis and the confessions of St. Augustine. And I mean, more like even they are like, no, I got to do laundry.

I have to do the dishes, I have to cook, I have to go out and work to get some food, and then I'm serving and loving people and connecting and consoling, and oh, I'm dealing with my own issues here. So they still were in this beautiful process of it. There was this one book where I remember him just saying, he's like, I don't even pick up a straw off the ground unless I'm doing it unto God. But basically like, yeah, I'm doing all of these things, they have to be done, but I can do them as kind of this...

Rachel Denning (25:03.277)
worship or this offering, you know, and so yeah, you can prioritize that way of thinking, but that doesn't mean you're not doing the things that need to be done. Exactly. Beautiful. So circling back then, I'll be listening. Life will, you'll either choose to live a life you want and you'll pursue your own targets and goals or by default, you'll end up living either a humdrum existence or

Most likely you'll, you'll be used by other people to pursue their goals. So either you're pursuing your own goals or you're being used by someone else to pursue theirs. And you might think, Oh no, nobody's using me. Oh man. Yes, they are. And they do it through your email inbox, through phone calls and text messages, billboards. You go to work for somebody. You're like, no, nobody's using me. And then you go to work for somebody who's you work for someone who's building their dreams and goals.

Right. Right. And they're pursuing their stuff. So ultimately each of us has to get really clear about what it is we want. And that at a first level, it's very general, very vague. Like what do you want? Well, in fact, sometimes you start it because people don't know you start with what you don't want. That's a great place to start. We often know better. Well, I definitely don't want that. Which is almost always the case when I ask people, Hey, what do you want?

It's very often like, man, I'm not sure. I don't know. I got a few things I don't know. And then I go there. What are you sure you don't want? And there's more certainty with that. Yeah, there's some adamant fire there usually. I did this just the other day with a couple. It was, I forgot about this conversation. It was awesome. I'm like, what do you want? And they're like, ah, we don't know yet. They're trying to chase their dreams as a family. And they're like, what? I'm not sure.

And so he's like, okay, what do you not want? And it was fast. Don't want to be broke or poor. I don't want to be fat, right? I don't want to be, I can't remember what the other ones were, but it was, it was just quick, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. I know I don't want to be those things, which is a great place to start. So as you go through, I guess we'll use, I want to use the triple trifecta and you can add some things in there, but.

Rachel Denning (27:21.613)
as we go through this process, just write these things down and start thinking through it as you're listening. Well, almost the first reaction. And if it's not what you want, then what is it that you don't want in that area? Right. So the triple trifecta, the first one is mind, body, and spirit. And I say fitness under that. It's fitness in mind, body, and spirit. So you're mentally fit, spiritually fit, and physically fit. So what do you want in those things? Or what do you not want?

and think through it, like, what do you want mentally? Would you think that one's probably the rarest? I don't know that a lot of people give that a lot of thought. Like, what do I want mentally? Well, because unfortunately, I think people are wakening to it now, but humanity definitely went through this period where we just felt like we didn't have a lot of control over it. Like, you either were mentally healthy or you were mentally ill and there was nothing you could do about it. That maybe take an antidepressant.

Which doesn't work. Which doesn't work, but there's a lot of research now that's very clear. Yeah, there are clear things you can do just like there are clear steps and habits to becoming healthy physically. There are clear steps and habits to becoming healthy mentally. Absolutely. So it's a very clear straightforward process. You have complete control of that. You're not a victim to your mental health or lack of it. Exactly. And so many of the problems mentally.

Ultimately come down to a lack of mental management or poor mental management is what's causing a problem. I would say that is true, but I would also think in really in a lot of ways it also comes down to a lack of

actions and behavior because there's a direct connection between what you're doing, whether you feel like doing something or not, but what you're doing on a daily basis and how you are mentally. I just recently heard this, something I'd heard before, but people 100, 200, 300, 500 years ago, they didn't struggle with it as much because they were focused.

Rachel Denning (29:37.357)
daily on doing the things that needed to happen. They were very busy doing. But things that like were good for you too. You're out there moving your body, you're planting, you're harvesting, you're hunting. Hunting, exactly. So that you could eat. Building shelters. But you didn't really have time to sit and be depressed. Like maybe during the winter if you're sheltering or whatever, that would be depressing. But...

Otherwise you're out, you're moving, you're doing things and that contributes to mental wellness. Okay. So here's a, here's a perfect example of what we're talking about overall in this episode of what is it you want and what do you need to be doing proactively and actively to do it? And this is one of them. We might say, I want to be mentally fit. Well, you got to get definitions about that. So I want to be strong. You know, I hear men especially talking about, I want to have like a fortified mind. One of them. One of them.

I want to be gritty and disciplined and I want to control my thoughts. So not only am I not thinking about inappropriate, negative, bad things, but I'm actually directing my thinking in a good way. And this includes education as well, right? Mentally, I want to constantly be reading books. So I've averaged a book a week for over two decades, right? That's part of my mental game. I have committed to become fluent in a new language every five years. So we're

Our whole family does. This family culture works. Pounding books all the time. We're learning languages. We're memorizing things. We're discussing challenging ideas. Right? So we want mental health and mental fitness and mental strength, mental fortitude. We want to be have a highly developed mind. Right. So what are you doing? What you're saying. Whether I feel like it or not, whether we all feel like it or not, we exercise physically.

because it's good mentally. We do hard things, uncomfortable things, right? Because it's really good for us mentally. I can't tell you how many times, I think cold water is a great example, because man, on a cold day, in a cold pool, you do not want to get in that thing. But you do it because of the, well, there's tons of physical benefits, but there's a lot of mental benefits. You're like, hey, I committed to do this.

Rachel Denning (31:58.733)
or I'm choosing to do it, it sucks, it's uncomfortable. I'm choosing to do it. Well, I think there's specifically a lot of research directly about the positive effects on mental health of cold water therapy, essentially. There's actually direct research about it. They found that if you spend five minutes, I think the water temperature was like 65 degrees. Yeah, so it's not even like... They said five minutes and they're just...

massively increased the receptors in our heads for positive feelings and dramatically decreased the receptors for negative. Just five minutes in like 65 degree water. So if you can regularly get in some real cold water, so there's a direct connection there, but you get stronger. So there's a perfect example. So get up every day and specifically do things that have proven,

to have the mental benefits that you want. Right. Circling back to what do you want? Well, I want to be mentally fit. As opposed to, and I specifically know people who say, well, I want to be healthy and I don't want to be depressed anymore. And yet every single day they're taking the actions that directly contribute to their depression. Yeah. Exactly.

And I think ultimately like that's what we're talking about here. What do you really want? And if you really want that, then do the things that will bring that thing. Whether you feel like it or not, because especially at first, because you're like, okay, I don't want to be out of shape anymore. I'm done. I want to be fit. Well, okay, you're going to have to eat less. Well, quantity, usually when people are overeating, you're going to have to eat healthier food and you know, your taste buds are conditioned.

to what you've been eating. So you're gonna have to change up your food and you still eat well, you eat really well, but you're gonna have to eat different and you're gonna have to exercise. And so all those things are gonna be new and uncomfortable and the body's gonna be like, no. And what you're saying is, do it anyways. Do those things. And I know a lot of people are thinking, oh, this is too hard because I've tried it and it doesn't last and this and that. And I know I get it. People have continued to say those things to us.

Rachel Denning (34:21.261)
But we, at least for us, and what we share with our coaching clients and even in my 28 day challenge program is it doesn't have to be a battle of the wills. And in fact, what I love to teach in my coaching program, because this is more my style, is I live by what's called the two minute rule, basically. Whether you feel like doing it or not, even just you saying that, I know people are like, ugh.

But if I say, okay, do it for two minutes, everyone, for some reason in our brains, we think, well, okay, I can do that. I can do it for two minutes. For some reason, when we feel like there's an end to the suffering, we can handle it. And I think we're just wired that way. So it's this idea of figure out what you need to do to get the things you want and then do it for at least two minutes every day. And then of course people say, well, what is two minutes gonna do?

All that's doing it first is getting you into the habit of doing that. It's helping you to overcome the inertia that's been preventing you all this time from doing it because you think, oh, I need to exercise, but I don't want to. Well, do it for two minutes. That's it. You start with doing it for two minutes. And if you do that every day for a week or 10 days or two weeks, pretty soon you're going to be like, oh, actually, yeah, now I'll do it for five minutes or 10 or 15 or, you know, because once you get going, you feel better. Right. It's.

Newton's laws, once you get going, an object in motion stays in motion. So it's a lot, it's overcoming that inertia. That's the hardest part. Exactly. Um, you said that we're wired for it and you're exactly right. Um, a couple of years ago, I did a ton of research on this and the hard wiring in the human psyche is to seek pleasure and avoid pain. So whatever it is,

we associate with pain, the brain is just going to subconsciously avoid it and seek pleasure, whatever we associate with pleasure. What's really cool is we can change, we can alter the associations, right? But if they just are default and just kind of doing their thing, then we're going to avoid it. So you're right, we are hardwired to do that. So we have to rewire it. Well, I think I want to point out for a minute that I think that's normal because if you think about where we came from as a species,

Rachel Denning (36:46.957)
avoiding pain and seeking pleasure kept us alive. Because if you didn't avoid pain, you'd end up dying or ultimately dying and seeking pleasure. When you live in the woods, what is pleasure? It's going to be a fire, it's going to be a comfortable place to sleep, it's going to be good food. Like, yeah, you want to seek those things. The only problem is,

the world we live in now didn't exist before, you know? So where that served us well previously, now it actually becomes detrimental because the world has changed and we haven't changed fast enough to be able to handle that. As a society, most of us have become so weak that we think these simple things are hard. Right.

hear people constantly complaining about this trivial thing. Oh, it's so hard. So terrible. I can't believe I have to do this. Are you serious? Like, just because we come become so cuddled. Because our world now is so comfortable that we've grown so used to that comfort that doing anything that would have kept our ancestors alive any other time period they would have thought.

Oh my goodness, that's unmanageable. You've arrived at the lap of luxury and now people are like, I can't handle this, it's too hard. So this all fits into kind of even a bigger discussion of what you want most versus what you want in the moment. You said that made me think of that. And I think it was Charles Swindle, he said, the chief cause of failure and unhappiness in life.

is giving up what we want most for what we want in the moment. And so it almost seems in conflict. You know, we're sitting here talking about like, hey, what is it you really want? Well, you might be like, well, right now I don't want to work out. I don't want to eat. I don't know why somebody would not want to eat healthy. That one I don't get. That's because you've been eating healthy for so long. I know. I'm like, why would anyone eat that garbage?

Rachel Denning (39:10.765)
But like the want in the moment might be laziness. It might even be like being rude. Like, oh, somebody made me upset. I want to say something mean. Get back out of revenge or whatever. Just being petty. You might want to hold onto a grudge. You might want to just waste money on something.

But we have to stay keyed into what we want most. And I think that for me is one of the things that has made discipline easier for me or doing the hard thing easier. Because I just constantly remind myself, what is it you want most? And so doing the quote hard thing. That's why it's easy for you to eat healthy and not.

junk food because you look at your muscles and you're like, this is what I want to be fit. I want to be ripped at 50 and 60 and 70 and 80. So when, when you think, Oh, how do you resist that fast food? It's easy. I don't want the effects of the fast food. So I think maybe, I don't know. And I didn't, I don't think I did that on purpose. Initially.

But somehow through my journey of personal development and growth and seeing all the things I didn't want, I guess maybe that was it. When I was out living in rough conditions and seeing people suffer, somehow I was able to make the connection. I'm like, man, they keep making those choices and they keep getting these outcomes, but they don't seem to see it. I'm like, I don't want what they have, so I'm not going to do what they do. And that's where I was able to get kind of some superpower strength.

of like, well, no, I'm going to circle back to what I want most. So one of the things I want most is to travel all over the world with my entire family, having epic experiences. And here we are doing that right now. Right. And so we, you and I choose to give up other things and eliminate other pursuits. My Porsche. Your dream Porsche. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (41:31.245)
that you would love to have one day, but we trade that for other things. For other things, right? Yeah, that's a great point. Like, oh, I could pursue this. I could pursue that. We could take our businesses and make them massive. But that would pull us away from family time. That would require us to work more and travel less. Which again, we're not... Each person and each family has to kind of...

define their hierarchy of values. But the caution I like to give people is...

Like start exploring your wants and kind of write them down and then put them in order and then take those and go, go line them up against the greatest thinkers and leaders of all time to make sure that they're in a good order. Because what has happened over the years, I've worked with people. I'm like, Hey, write down what you want most, write down your goals, write down your dreams, write down what's important to you. And they'll sometimes come back with a list.

that as I see it, it's flipped upside down and they've got things at the top. I'm gonna do this. I'm like, okay. And I don't, when I'm coaching through them, I don't attack it. I'm like, okay, let's - Oh, that's wrong. Let's go line that up and see where that plays out. Go find people in history who had that list and then find people you admire and see if you can find out what their list was. Well, I think ultimately it's -

Instead of relying on your own thinking or judgment, it's being able to compare and contrast what you're pursuing with someone who's already done that because people have done it throughout history and to see what their experience was. And the ultimate outcome. Yeah. What was, what is their synopsis of pursuing that thing? Was it a positive thing? Was it a negative thing? Did they regret it? Did they, were they grateful they did it?

Rachel Denning (43:35.853)
I think that's kind of what you're talking about because we can't always know. We're not wise enough as finite human beings to know exactly what's going to be best for us and bring us the best, you know, the most joy and happiness in life. And so it is, that is the beauty and power of reading is because you have access to the minds of millions of people literally who have lived incredible lives. And so you can read biographies and histories and, and learn.

what they learned and then say, wow, okay, yeah, maybe I don't want to pursue that. You have to look at the whole picture. This is where we get a little short -sighted because let's pick an example I've heard before. Like people say, I want to have 10 million or 20 million dollars net worth by the time I'm 40. Okay, wow, that's ambitious. That's amazing. Let's look at some people who've done that and not look at just that specific journey to achieving that specific goal. And how they did it.

Let's look at their whole lives. Right. So then you go and you're like, Oh man, they worked 90 hour weeks every single week. No exceptions. And they lost their health and their marriage and their kids. Which is the common story. Like, wow. Okay. They literally had to sacrifice everything on this altar of chasing that big, big goal. And so you think, is that what I want?

And we think, I imagine they're thinking that, well, I'm doing this for my kids so that at some point we will have this ultimate freedom of being able to do whatever we want and go wherever we want and have this great time. But that's why it's so important to learn from others because most of the time, that's not what happens. Most of the time, in a way, you get addicted to working like that. And so it never ends. There's never a stopping point. It's never enough. It's never good enough.

And then what you have to exchange for it is actually the very thing you potentially were saying you were doing it for is those relationships. Exactly. And we've read biographies like that. The one I'm thinking of right now is called Driven. And he did that 90 hours a week, every week. And he kept saying, I'm doing this for my family. I'm doing this for my family. And on his early deathbed, as a double amputee, because he became diabetic because he was so unhealthy, his

Rachel Denning (46:05.421)
Some of his children wouldn't even come see him. They hated him, wouldn't even talk to him. And so he's like, man, I messed up. I just totally went back to my spirituality. I'm about to go meet my maker and I'm not ready. I have all this wealth, but my kids resent me and we all have a good relationship with them. And now I'm super unhealthy. So I'd give all my wealth to have my health back, but I can't. I sacrificed it. So I think that's an important point there is like, make sure your value system is actually aligned in proven pattern.

throughout history from the greatest thinkers and leaders of all time. You can get access to all those things like you're saying. Or even in modern times, you know? I mean, today there's podcasts and books and YouTube videos. Like there's so many stories of people out there who are sharing their lessons about, hey, this is what happens when you pursue this thing. But we have to look behind the scenes. Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, you have to look behind the scenes. I think one of the greatest... That's the danger of...

dangers in our time is this facade or mask that people put on. They're like, hey, I'm so successful. I'm killing it. And they hold out the one thing. I'm like, look what I'm doing. Look at me. I made this millions of dollars. I did all this thing. I'm doing all this. But you have to get back behind the scenes and be like, OK, how's the rest of your life? Right. And when you see all the details, then you ask, is that the life I want? You have to find the life you want in a line like that.

So anyways, as we're going through this, what do you want mentally? What do you want spiritually? What do you want emotionally? What do you want physically? What do you want in your marriage? What do you want with each of your children? What do you want your family legacy to be? That's one of my favorite ones. I love, love, love thinking about family legacy. And that one's really interesting because for me it's generational.

When I think about a legacy, I'm like, okay, this is a long game. But what I do today and every day is building this long game of legacy. Love thinking about that one. And that one's easy to also think, what do I not want? Right. Because you see it, you know, things that were passed down in my family and or your family or families, we get to work with people like, oh, it's been doing that's been happening for generations. I'm like, hey, put a stop to it.

Rachel Denning (48:32.429)
You be the one that puts a stop to that. It ends right here with you and you create a new legacy. And then so that's the second trifecta is marriage, parenting and family legacy. And then the third trifecta is your expenses. No, your income is first, then your expenses, then your investments. And even there it gets fuzzy. Like what kind of income do you want? And the almost immediate response to that is like, well, I don't get to decide my income.

Yes, you do. I know right now your current employer or your current, you know, state business might be quote, determining your current income, but that's the only thing stopping you is you. Right. So decide what kind of income you want and what you're willing to trade for it and expenses too. People think, well, I got to spend what I got to spend. Well, no, get clear about how you're going to spend your money. Well, that's the determining factor of who you are. Back to the income thing for a minute. I'm

We're currently re -reading the alchemist because we're preparing for the trip that we're leading when we're going out into the Sahara Desert. And I'm at the part where he's from Spain, he crosses over to Tangier. The very first thing, he was a shepherd, he sold all of his sheep. The very first thing that happens when he gets to Tangier is he trusts this guy who thinks he's a friend who ends up taking all of his money, everything. So...

everything. The work of his life. And which is why this book is so great and he calls it a fable but it's so true to pursuing your dreams and we love this book so much because we have lived these experiences. Obviously it's not the same story but the principles he teaches are true. Like it's happened to us you know we pursued our dream and then we lost everything right and so it's just so true and so he goes to Tangeer he loses everything doesn't even have money to go back.

be a shepherd again. He can't even do that. He's like, I'm more soft than I was. And so the only thing I know. So the only thing he can do is he happens to find a guy who owns a crystal shop where he sells like crystal glasses and stuff. But this guy, you know, kind of tells his little story a little bit where he used to have lots of business and now he's at the top of the hill and no one comes up there and no one buys his stuff anymore. So everything's covered with dust and everything's dirty.

Rachel Denning (51:01.229)
And this kid is so hungry that he goes over and he's like, will you give me lunch if I dust all of your glasses? And so the guy doesn't even respond and he just starts dusting. And then when he's done, he takes him for lunch and he's like, I would have fed you anyways because the Quran tells us to feed someone who asks us for food, but I'm glad you cleaned my glasses. He ends up hiring him and he just, he has all of these new ideas. He just infuses it with.

new thought and new life. And so it changes both of their life because they both start earning more money because he's like, well, let's do this and let's do this and let's serve tea in the glasses for people. And then they'll want to climb up the hill because they get to have tea and crystal glasses. And so it just proves. And then I love how we also, the author, they'll have these conversations, which you know are so accurate, even though in real life we don't say these things, we know we're thinking and feeling them because

the kid will have a new idea and then the shop owner will say, well, if you do that, it means this and I'm going to have to expand and I'm going to have to get more help. And I don't know that I want to do that because I'm comfortable with my life as it is. Exactly. As he complains about it. Exactly. As he complains about it. And so I think it's so true that sometimes we don't want to do the things that would make us more money because we're going to have to, you know, he always says I'm comfortable. I don't want to change. I'm afraid of it.

We don't want to do that. We want to just stay with what we know. We want to stay with the known and not have to face the unknown of earning more money or doing more to generate more income. So it's within our power, but we're not always willing to take that step. That's so beautiful there. What do we want more? Do we want the comfort and the familiarity, the convenience of the now more than we...

Well, okay, do we want, how do I say this? Do we want to not change more than we want the results of change? I think for some people, yes. Right. That is exactly what they want. And that's why we say stuck because our wants are distorted. Yeah. Again, this is why we're having this conversation. The getting clear about what you want and in that what you want most or what you want more.

Rachel Denning (53:26.669)
Right, and I would say, you know, it's a valuable process to go through. And in fact, it kind of mentions it in this little story, in the bigger story of the alchemist, is because the shop owner himself goes through, he talks about, well, I had a dream, I wanted to go to Mecca and I wanted to take the pilgrimage and you know, and all of that. He's like, but I, now I don't because I've lived it so many times in my head that I'm afraid I'd be disappointed if I actually did it.

And ultimately, he ends up being more content with staying because he went through the process of accepting that actually, no, I don't want that. I'm happy staying where I am. And so even if you never change your life and pursue dreams or whatever, going through this process, I think brings you more gratitude for the life you choose to live because you feel like you're actually choosing to live it. I'm consciously choosing to remain in a more comfortable life.

instead of feeling like resentful or bitter because, oh, well, I never got to do that thing. When really you come to terms with, no, I chose this. I chose to stay in the comfort because it was actually what I actually wanted. The big warning there though is do not settle. Right. Do not acquiesce. Don't try to convince yourself that, oh, I didn't really want that. Because that's the fox and the grapes, right?

He tries to get the grapes, tries to get the grapes and it is pathetic little efforts to get it. And then he's like, well, I didn't even want them anyways, cause they're probably sour. And he walks up like bogus. Like you didn't put in the work to get what you wanted, which you wanted the grapes. But so then you try to tell yourself why I didn't actually want it. I know. So don't settle, don't acquiesce, don't hollow out your own little pit of mediocrity and think, no, this is what I want. Because too often we're letting our fears.

and our insecurities and our doubts relating social conditioning, the opinions of others try to persuade us that that's what we really want. Or we look how much effort it's going to require and think, yeah, I didn't want that anyway. I know what I really wanted was this. You're full of crap. You're accepting something really small and saying that that's what you want. And that's just not the case. Right. So.

Rachel Denning (55:48.749)
Yeah, there's definitely soul and find out what you want. There's definitely a fine line between realizing, oh, this is actually what I really wanted, which is why I pursued that versus I was always just acquiescing, you know, because I truly believe there are people out there who sure might love to travel, but what they want more than that is to have a farm or something, you know, like that's truly their passion and dream. And so as much as they want.

You know, we talk about, yeah, we'd love to have a farm, but really what we want more is to travel. And so that's why we travel. And that's the point, right? Like I have for years, I've quote, wanted to learn how to play a musical instrument. But whenever I have a moment of time, I pick up a book. Right. Or I go do something else. So, so at the end of the day, what is it I truly want? Well, I want to learn languages because I do that. I want to read books because I do that. I don't really want.

the music as much because they don't do it as much as they do the other thing. So it's determining what it is you want, putting it in a list, your hierarchy of wants, and then, oh, here come our curls. So it's determining the list of your wants, putting them in a hierarchy of desire, like what do you want most?

Well, yes, because interrupt really quick, we've already talked before about, even though it seems crazy, you actually do have to have multiple priorities, but you can't work on all of those priorities at the same time, especially throughout the day. And so you might be switching daily or weekly for focus, but with the effort of trying to develop what we've done before the wheel of life.

each of those things is a wheel in your life and some of them are going to be flat and others are going to be pumped up full of air. So you have to focus on the flat ones to help get that wheel going and moving so you can make more progress in your life. So in a way, in a way you are working on all of them simultaneously, but maybe not necessarily all the exact same time. Right. Not all on the same day. Right. So maybe in a week, maybe.

Rachel Denning (58:13.005)
You could do something in all the things you want. But again, the whole goal here, this is so important. I have to emphasize this so much because we see it every day. You have to be making palpable progress towards the things you want. And what I'm reminded of is something that we teach in the Extraordinary Life Planner we have is that everyone has a to -do list, but if your to -do list is just arbitrary,

It's just, you know, whatever people around you, your boss, your friends, your neighbors, your church, say you have to do, that becomes your to -do list. And so you're not actually pursuing the things you want, you're pursuing what they want you to do. But when you get this alignment, when you decide, this is what I want in these nine areas of life or whatever, then you can make a to -do list that's actually helping you to make progress towards achieving those things.

There's a huge difference. And yet in some ways there's not. You're still doing a to -do list every day. But one's moving towards a target and one's just moving. Right. And in a lot of ways, even though we're living our dream life, we still are operating off a to -do list just like you are, listener. Right? We even traveling in Morocco and Tangier, we have a to -do list. That's why we're sitting here right now doing a podcast even though we just arrived in Morocco today.

That's such a great point. Like we're, we have a to -do list and we have family busyness and, and we have so many similarities to other listeners.

But in so many instances, we have completely different outcomes. Right. Exactly. And we're moving towards our dreams where others are just moving around in their own little existence that they don't want to stay in. Right. It's interesting. You remind me, I had a couple tell me just last week. They said we've we've been doing and done all these things that we were told to do. Right. Right. Teachers, mentors, parents, society, whatever. It's like do these things like we did all those things. And they're not necessarily bad things.

Rachel Denning (01:00:23.981)
But ultimately the question and they were successful at those right very successful, but the question is like Now right now are you moving? Obviously deliberately like it If your life were a silent film, you're like, oh, yeah, it's clear. They are moving towards the things they want Mm -hmm. That's what which in some ways though. I don't know if that analogy is

completely accurate because like we mentioned a second ago, in some ways it may not look that different. You may be making phone calls, you know, like we were last week trying to get insurance for driving in Morocco, you know, you're doing the same things and so if it was a silent movie you might think, oh, they're doing the same thing. But the outcomes are very different. So sometimes it's not even that so much as it is having that vision of what is this action that seems similar, similarly,

It seems similar to any other action people are doing. Where is it taking me? Right, exactly. Where's the outcome? Which kind of the theme of the alchemist, right? Like, are you working on that vision and moving toward that vision you have doing actions that other people are doing too, but they produce different outcomes because you have a different vision. Beautiful. Yeah. So what do you want and are your actions and your habits in alignment? And your to -do list. Yeah.

Are they in alignment with what you want? And can, can you, can you feel it? Can you sense it? Can others around you sense the forward progress towards what you want? Or does it feel like you're really busy? You're going, I love to say this way, you're going and going without going anywhere. You feel stuck. So, um, my,

My perception of this is you have to spend a lot of time thinking and writing. Like draw this out to the surface and just keep hashing through it and then talk through it with your spouse, talk about it as a family. If you get a coach, get a mentor, like talk through this stuff till you feel like you have massive clarity about what you want in all those areas and then do the hard work of

Rachel Denning (01:02:49.677)
disciplining your to -do list. I like that. You discipline your to -do list and make sure, yep, it is aligned with what I want most. Right. And then, I mean, in a lot of ways we have done that work for a lot of people. That's what my 28 day challenge is about. Cause people were like, well, what, what are the things? What are the habits? And I mean, I don't, I don't learn them all in the 28 day challenge for mom and you do a similar thing. Epic life planner you just talked about. That thing is dialed in exactly on this.

And then, yeah, I do the same thing with my master class with the men. In fact, even in my app, there's a free course in the Be The Man app. That's essentially walking through this thing. Exactly. These are the things you need to be putting on your to -do list if you want to be getting different outcomes. And so it's educating our desires and our wants.

Rachel Denning (01:03:43.565)
so that they match up with what makes our soul sing. It's all those quotes we just shared for years. Thoreau said, most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to their grave with their song still in them. They never sing the song. Or Tagore said, I spent my life stringing and unstringing my instrument without ever playing the song.

That's that empty to -do list. And we're saying, string the instrument. String the instrument. It has to happen. But then play the song. Oh man, play your song. Which is, that's what we're doing. Like, and we can say that right now, we're doing that because we are taking this journey, which is again, another journey of one of many that we've taken. This time last year, we were sitting in Norway.

on another trip that we had planned. But in the meantime, in between these trips, we're at home, wherever that is in the world, working on to -do lists. So that we can then, to use that analogy, play the instrument and actually play the music and enjoy it. But we don't do the to -do list just because there is a purpose to that to -do list so that we can then live our life more fully. Yeah. You know, even travel, I know we talk so much about travel.

Travel is not our purpose. Right. And this is, it sounds crazy, but travel is our to -do list to reach our purpose. And our purpose is, I think ultimately our purpose is to become superb human beings, to become the very best version of ourselves and to help our children do the same, like to help them maximize their full potential. And we've realized that extensive,

real travel helps do that. Yeah, we use it as a tool, which is also why as a part of our purpose, that's why we lead the trips because we, the same thing, we use the travel experience as a tool to help people have their own transformative experiences. So transformation, transformation is part of the end goal. It's what we want most. I love that. Okay, guys, thanks for listening.

Rachel Denning (01:06:12.365)
Thanks for caring enough to even listen to an episode like this. And thank you, kudos and honor to you for the effort that you put in to strive to be your best self, live a good life. Love you guys, reach upward.