Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:10.318)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the extraordinary family life podcast. Yeah, thanks for listening, thanks for being here, thanks for striving to be good people. The fact that you listen to our podcast says something about you and that's awesome. Our whole message here is family.

and living a great life. And if you've listened to us at all, if you're brand new, welcome. If you listen to us all, you know, like we're all about the key to a really happy, really successful life is to keep working on yourself and your family. Just keep getting better. Not just that. Not just that. That is true. But I truly believe that the key to a happier, healthier world and society is

individuals who work on themselves and work on improving their families. Like that's the answer. If we could, if we want to change the world, that's where it starts. And I think too often, especially today, we think, well, we were talking about it some this morning, there's a lot of people that think that the way to make a better, better world is to not have children and to become an activist. And I think in reality that does more damage to the world when we can learn to improve ourselves.

having the best version of ourselves possible and then take on real responsibility, aka having children raising the next generation and make that an actually strong, healthy situation because unhealthy families obviously don't make the world a better place. They contribute to the problems. But if you can do that, then that is the answer. If everyone did that, I think that would solve 90 % of the world's problems. Absolutely. And even like we don't have to...

arrive at perfection tomorrow. Absolutely. It's literally just striving towards it. This earnest effort to move towards a worthy family ideal would transform societies and civilizations. It would make the world such a better place. Right. So it all starts with you and your family. And the reason most people don't do it is because it's uncomfortable.

Rachel Denning (02:29.102)
Or they don't know what to do. Or that, yeah, some are just kind of surviving and they've never been taught or brought into this awareness. But when you get into it, it's effort. Well, it's kin to the effort of getting in shape, right? I mean. Which is why most people are not. Right. We like to use that analogy a lot. One, because you like to work out a lot. Two, because I know for real firsthand the...

Inhibition that comes to not working out and I think it's real that there is effort required to become physically fit and I think it is exactly the same. It's a perfect metaphor for creating this life we're talking about and this ideal we're talking about. It is its effort. It's work. It's akin to the effort of getting in shape. And so a lot of people like you said aren't physically fit and the same is true with their

personal inner life, their mental emotional state, and the state of their family. It's not in shape because it is hard work. It requires sustained, consistent effort like working out, like lifting weights, something like that. And yeah, it's easier to not do it. I mean, it's easy to do. It's also easier not to do. And when you have the option of not doing it, that's the...

many people take is to not do it. Right, but the greatest news I think is that it's absolutely worth it and then as we get into it... I think more than worth it. Weight, big time and as we get into it it actually gets easier to do. Yes, just like when you're working out it gets easier to lift the weights that were hard it gets easier for you to lift those weights because you become stronger and that's exactly the same thing that happens. The first time you get off the couch and try to run to the corner you feel like you're gonna die.

And your heart's going to beat right out of your chest and you want to vomit. But if you keep you get up every day and do that same thing, eventually you're like, oh, I'm not even really winded. Right. And so like Emerson said, that which we persist in doing becomes easier to do. Not that the nature of the thing has changed, but that our ability to do has increased. Exactly. So inside family dynamics and marriage and

Rachel Denning (04:50.606)
creating and sustaining an extraordinary family life, that which we persist in doing becomes easier to do. Right. I think of it very much like just having children in general. I mean, I know for me, I remember the first time we adopted our oldest. So, you know, I didn't have to go through the process of giving birth or whatnot, but it was still challenging to make that adjustment to from just the two of us.

With our schedule and whatever we wanted to do whenever we do it so busy I know thought we were so busy and then you bring an infant and now they're interrupting your schedule and they want to eat and sleep and not sleep and you know, they're demanding and and it's so hard you're just like oh my gosh, this is so hard and Then by the time you have your second and your third and then you know for us up to our seventh It it gets easier like there's still challenges obviously you get better

Some people stay at the same level and it just gets harder and harder and harder. True, although I think in some ways everybody gets a little bit better at dealing with it. Otherwise, I think you would literally crack. I think mothers would, and it does happen, of course. But you get more capable in that you're able to handle more demands and whatnot. And you're right, for some people it doesn't change. They just...

collapse or they're not able to handle it or they you know they're crushed by the weight but in a similar vein that's also the process for creating an extraordinary family life because there's one level of like you get to this point where you can survive all of that you can survive having one you can survive having two you can survive having three we're talking about thriving of course and but it's a similar process of growing and developing so that

it becomes easier for you to do the things that were previously harder. And I think that that's...

Rachel Denning (06:47.374)
Many people don't get that vision. They don't see that it actually becomes easier. And so they imagine that, oh my gosh, it's always going to be this hard. Why am I going to try? Why am I going to pursue this ideal when it's always just going to be so much effort? I don't even think it's worth it. It's just, let's just take it easy. Let's just relax. Let's just enjoy our life and like not strive so hard, you know? But.

it does become easier to do. That's such a great point, Rachel. It's so important.

because if it required the same painful effort as the first time you try it, you're like, oh, is this what it's like to improve myself? Is this what it's like to improve my family? It feels like a Herculean effort. This is gonna crush me. I'm gonna burn out and die by the end of the year. But you're exactly right. That could be exactly what happens. I think if that was the case, if that's what it was like, you and I wouldn't even be here. We wouldn't be sitting here having this conversation because...

We're not Hercules. Right. And if it was that consistent demand, that much pain and that much struggle, overcoming the inertia of starting the first time, or trying to get things in order. Like, OK, let's say your family is pretty chaotic and it's pretty wild. There's a lot of mayhem and chaos. And you have to do a lot of work up front to get some systems in place.

And if you felt like man, maintaining systems is as much work as implementing system. You say, uh, it's just not sustainable. Let's just, let's acquiesce. Let's settle for chaos. And you don't even, I don't think most people would consciously say I'm settling. They're just like, it's not worth it. Or it's not possible. It's not possible. It's just too much work. It's not sustainable. But once you get it in place, it's way easier to do and maintain and keep going. And the results are amazing. And then eventually,

Rachel Denning (08:49.454)
you and your children get into a rhythm and get into conditioning and then everybody is helping out. Things are awesome. Yeah. And so then you're thriving and thriving looks easy. And that's why people look at us and be like, you guys are so lucky. Right. Your kids just help out and like, you just wander around the earth having a blast. Yeah. Not realizing all of the efforts we had to put in it.

initially to get it to that point where but but Emphasizing that it doesn't require that same percolating effort to keep it going, right? Love it. So We've we've kind of been hitting on some this overall theme of keeping your family in a beautiful stable condition Well, essentially creating a well -adjusted family. I like to use that term because I've heard people use it

referencing what they see from us, this well adjustment where things are balanced, they're stable, they're solid, they're healthy, and that's what we have been talking about. This is now the third podcast episode about it, so the previous two have been talking about different aspects of it. We always refer to the pyramid. There's lots of pyramids, we love pyramids, but the one...

that we have for the Extraordinary Family Life starts with you on the bottom. You are the foundation of your family. Nothing gets better until you get better. And then from there is your marriage, which we haven't talked a lot about yet, but we want to. Parenting, your parenting skills, your parenting tactics, approaches, your family culture, which comes down to, and we kind of started the first one talking about family culture, but then of course realized like you've got to understand all these other.

pieces below it before you actually get the family culture piece right because it makes a huge difference. Like you love to say culture eats everything for breakfast. Like it is the defining characteristic of how your family is. It's their way of being. And then of course finances are the top of the pyramid because they help you to live out your personal mission and your family mission and legacy. It's interesting as you were describing that I just pictured this visual.

Rachel Denning (11:14.126)
Many people take the pyramid and they flip it upside down. And they start with finances first. They think if I can get my finances, I'll dedicate all my time and effort and energy to my finances. We get finances right, everything else will fall into place. But if you can see that, it's literally a pyramid trying to balance upside down on the point. It's not sustainable. It's not stable. And it's not stable, exactly. There's no solidity. There's no foundation there. Right. And so it's going to...

It will fall over and people balance it, you know, they keep it spinning and in the air for a while and maybe it's like a top, it's spinning and they're like, if I can just keep this spinning, one day it'll change. It doesn't. And so, these men and women who spend so much of themselves in a career or finances thinking that's the answer end up losing their health or their wellness or their marriage or their families. It's so sad. So,

You gotta flip that pyramid right back over. So it's just so solid, just that huge base. And we were recently in Egypt and saw the pyramids in Giza. They've been there for so many thousands of years. They're not going anywhere. Because they're just solid. The base is just huge and solid. And I love that imagery again, that that's what you need to build on. You need to build on that solid foundation. And that essentially is...

you. Now we've talked often about this before of how overwhelming that can feel, how crushing that can seem like I've got to hold up all this weight. And yeah, I get how it can definitely feel that way. I've felt that before too, but remember you eat pressure for breakfast. Well, not everybody appreciates that idea, babe, or wants to embrace that idea. They're like, no, I don't want any pressure. I don't want pressure for any meal of the day at all. Right.

But I think when you learn to embrace that and to accept it, even if it's like this humble submission of like, okay, that's how it is. When you accept it, it changes everything. It switches everything for you in the world. And when you learn that you actually will be a better person with more capability and more competence,

Rachel Denning (13:41.198)
when you learn to take on that responsibility, I mean that, it literally changes everything. Like I said, it just changes everything. And so you become this force for good in your life and in your family and in your community because you're willing to take on more responsibility instead of constantly looking for ways to shirk it. Which is essentially all we're doing when we're like, oh, I'm overwhelmed. I can't do more. I can't be more. I can't accomplish more.

We're essentially shirking responsibility. We're saying, I'm not capable enough. I'm not competent enough. And that's true. You're not. That's why it feels overwhelming. But when you learn to become the person who can do that.

you then become the person who can do that. And ultimately, I mean, we get it. Oh, we get it. We've, you know, it's on one side, you're like, I honestly would just rather sit around eating treats and watching shows. Yeah. You think you want that. But what we really want as human beings is I say divine beings.

We have this desire for growth and improvement in us. This kind of homing device, the upward reach I always talk about. I'm always saying reach upward, reach upward. It comes from this little part of this poem. This chief of all thy wondrous works, O God, supreme of all thy plan, thou has placed an upward reach into the heart of man. So what we really want most is growth and improvement.

Becoming our best self is what you're talking about. To be capable and confident and competent. That's what we really want. But in the moment, we think we want the two of you. The comfort and ease. So another way of putting that, I think, is what we really want is adventure. Because adventure brings meaning and purpose and fulfillment. And it seems exciting and alluring. Now adventure inevitably includes lots of suffering.

Rachel Denning (15:48.206)
test you to your very core. It completely tests you in so many ways, which is one of the reasons why we love and can hate travel at the same time because, us personally, is because it puts you in situations where you're forced with no other option but to just bear the burden. And come up with a solution. Exactly, right. And our - Oh, so many stories. Our 19 -year -old son, I think, articulated it so well. He did a -

podcast interview with you and I listened to that and he talked about that how it's fun to think about and remember all the highlights and all the cool times and the Instagram worthy pictures and all of that but the real meaningful most significant parts of the travel in his words were the times when you just had to put that backpack on your back and like hike walk for miles.

to get to the bus stop or get to the train station or sometimes you had to run and sometimes you had to carry the little sister and sometimes, you know, all of this stuff. That's the part that's actually the most valuable even though, especially in the moment, that's the part that sucks the most. It's the most valuable because it's the most formative. Exactly. So powerful. So I would like to focus today on the marriage piece, particularly in maybe some parenting and kind of family culture because...

We've talked about you and getting yourself in this state. And I guess family culture begins with you and your own almost individual culture, like your personality. And remember, personality is not fixed. It's not permanent. It's not something that like, oh, you're born with and that's the way I am. That's just the way it is. That's not true. It's moldable. It's changeable. You can change. You can.

And if so, if you're kind of naturally grumpy or honoree or you're serious all the time, you want to think, well, that's just the way I am. No, it's not just the way you are. There's conditioning, there's training, whatever happened to you or whatever you've chosen. That's that's the beginning piece. And so and I had to do this, I had to totally transform my personality because I realized at one point that the personality I had wasn't

Rachel Denning (18:06.702)
bringing me the things I really wanted. It wasn't serving me. And it wasn't enabling me. And really I did that for marriage. I was so lonely and I wanted to have a great marriage. And I don't know, I don't know how I figured this out as a teenager in my early 20s. Like, no, I want a great marriage so I can't stay as I am. I have no idea how I came to that conclusion. It was a miracle.

But I realized if I want an extraordinary marriage, I have to become a better person. Yeah. And that really is true because we've talked about it and I know, and it's true for me too, that you and I would not have been interested or attracted to each other as the previous people that we were before we met. Because I made massive changes, you made massive changes. We wouldn't have been drawn to each other. Right.

prior to that. Had we crossed paths a couple years earlier or more? Yeah, there would have been. We would have probably been repelled. I'm like, dude, not that guy. Yep. And making those changes in ourselves then allowed us to be ready to make changes as a couple. Well, it also made us more attractive. Right.

You know, because there are things you can do and this is true in your marriage still, even if you're already married, that make you more attractive to the people you want to be attracted to. Well, and I would say that's an absolute must. To me, that's a non -negotiable where people might put in those big efforts to become attractive to get a spouse. And then they think, oh, once I'm married, they let off the things that made them attractive. And become unattractive. Yeah. And

And really let that sink in. We're not trying to be mean or rude here, but you have to honestly look at yourself and say, have I become an unattractive person? And that of course - We're not just talking about physical appearance. That's where I was going to go. That's physical, mental, emotional, spiritual, social, financial. It's all of those things. Have you become or have you been an unattractive person? Right.

Rachel Denning (20:29.326)
And part of keeping the marriage alive is keeping your attractiveness up. Exactly. Right. Which ties directly into respectability as well, because if it's attractive and it's respectable, if it's likable, then that right there gives you a significant advantage inside your marriage. Right. Well, I would say that...

It is that very act that for one thing has kept our marriage strong and growing and improving is that the fact that before we met, we changed our personalities and became more attractive and that's never stopped. We've continued to do that and work on that the entire 23 years we've been married. And in a way, that's essentially something you do every day, every moment. Like every choice is either making you, leading you to becoming more attractive,

or to becoming less attractive. I mean, that's really, it comes down to that. You're either working on becoming a more attractive person, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, or a less attractive person. And it's down to doing things that are likable or unlikable. If I do unlikable things, well, then I struggle liking myself. And so do I. And you will struggle liking me. And what's so interesting and ironic about human beings.

is we get most angry and most upset when the honest truth is that we're angry at ourselves, we don't like ourselves. And so we lash out, we get defensive, we explode on our kids, our spouses, everything's terrible. The hard reality is you back all the way back in, you're like, I don't like myself. Right, I'm doing despicable things. Yeah, these unlikable, unrespectable things I'm doing.

And I'm not... Yes. Yes. I'm not a shield, I'm doing all these other things, what excuses, whatever. But ultimately it's like, you know what? It's me. I'm not being attractive, likable, respectable. And so then the cascade effect is it goes out. It can't not. Right. None of us... It's like throwing a pond in a stone.

Rachel Denning (22:54.446)
stone and a pond. I would like to see how that gets done. A stone and a pond, it sends out a ripple and you can't stop that process from happening. None of us, not a single one of us can ever stop radiating what we are. Right. So in the marriage, you're trying to be attractive and likable and respectable. And but...

We have to point out you're not trying to do this to win the praise of others or to please your spouse. Like that's what makes it work is that you're actually just doing it because why you're doing it because that's who you want to be and that's what you're meant to do. Like it's just you're essentially fulfilling your inner calling. If you want to call it that it's your it's that upward reach. I'm going along here with this. Why do that? Why? Because.

Arguably like we talked about before it's more effort and uncomfortable if I come to you and say babe What would you like me to do better? That's gonna hurt right there. Yeah, and oh And it's like why why do that? Why do that? Well, and especially in today's world. I think the narrative in the US at least is No, you shouldn't have to do that. Just be if someone doesn't accept you exactly as you say you are

then that's their problem. There's something wrong with them and they need to change because you are perfect as you are, right? You're perfect however you claim yourself to be. And the reason that we don't accept that and we claim this other approach is that we've seen what it does. People who...

take on the responsibility of becoming their best selves actually are happier in the long term. It's a psychologically sounder approach and doctrine that leads to at least more fulfillment and contentment. Because while there's struggle and suffering there, it's a different type of suffering. It's a suffering that's voluntary. Like you've chosen to take it on and by that very...

Rachel Denning (25:11.918)
nature that you chose it, it becomes more valuable to you and more fulfilling to you as opposed to like just you just need to love me the way I am and just accept it. You still have suffering, you still have pain, you're gonna have depression and anxiety and it's gonna be less

It's going to be pointless. It's going to feel completely pointless. Like, what's the point? Because it doesn't have the significance attached to it of like, I chose this in order to become my best self, in order to, you know, achieve these ideals that I'm aiming to pursue. You have to have that noble aim attached to it or else the suffering becomes meaningless. And then it's nihilism, essentially. Like, why not just kill yourself at that point?

And that sounds extreme, but that's ultimately where this lack of meaning leads you to. If there is no meaning to your efforts and your suffering, then there's no meaning to nothing, to anything at all, and there's no reason for you to be here. You can just commit suicide. And that's, you know, I mean that's why people like Kurt Cobain and all kinds of other people who've accepted that

Nihilistic doctrine have committed suicide because and school shooters. They're nihilistic. They saw no point at all in their own suffering. To their own existence or to the suffering and existence of others. So you might as well just take out people while you take out yourself and children too, you know, who cares if it's a baby or a four -year -old. Just take them out because there is no meaning or point to life. But conversely, if you're striving towards a worthy ideal,

If you have a noble aim and a target that is meaningful and purposeful, then the struggle has meaning. Right. And you feel like, okay, this counts for something. Yeah. It's not just pointless suffering. It's, I'm paying a price to get somewhere, to be somebody. Right. Which is really awesome. And that does, of course, you know, there has to be some payoffs too along the way.

Rachel Denning (27:19.31)
If you go and lift weights and you never gain any strength, then you're kind of like, well, that's what I'm trying to get to. You're kind of like, what's the point of all this suffering? I'm getting nothing out of it. I'm getting no results. And one of the reasons why is, well, you're doing it wrong. If you learn to do the suffering right, you get the results, you get the payoff, and then you're like, oh, well, yeah, it's worth it. So going back to what we were talking about before, yeah, there's effort involved, there's suffering, there's challenge, there's...

all of these things, but when you do it the right way, learn to do it the right way, you get the results and then you're able to say, ah, okay, it was worth it. I got up at four this morning and I wrote in my book for three hours. Not on purpose. Yeah, I was, I did not sleep well. So I'm like, yeah, I'll get up and write. So I wrote for three hours. One of the things I wasn't going to talk about this today, but you brought it up and.

I want to share it. I was writing about it, thinking about it this morning. I've been getting more and more comments in social media, particularly getting messages when I hold up a standard and say, hey, you know, as good family men, we should be doing these things. As good husbands, as good fathers. These are some of the things we should be doing and striving for. More and more frequently now I'm getting comments of like, hey, no, that's...

That's a lot of pressure. You're putting too much pressure on men. You can't have those expectations. You can't be telling men they should, men can't handle the pressure. They're cracking. And even in some cases, there's like, this is why men are committing suicide because of this pressure. And I am of the opinion that it's the exact opposite. And it's this pressure, again, voluntary.

Voluntary pressure, I choose, and I'm, the people, the man I work with and myself, I'm like, no, we eat pressure for breakfast. We want to, we want the pressure. And we want the challenge of leveling up, of rising, of being the very best version of ourselves. That's actually what brings happiness. Right. That's what brings meaning and fulfillment. That's what saves off suicide. Yes, absolutely. And so many other problems.

Rachel Denning (29:47.022)
So when I voluntarily choose to take on this load, this burden, the discomfort and the strain and the struggle to become a better person, to overcome my weaknesses and flaws and to gain truly valuable skills to become a formidable family man.

Rachel Denning (30:11.726)
the, I would say happiness and joy and peace and it's mixed in there. That's what comes in that journey. Right. It doesn't always feel happy when you're struggling under the load. You're not, this is so fun and I'm so happy, but it fills you. You feel whole and filled because you're striving for something worthy. Right. And I think that you're right.

I think it's the lack of that kind of pressure in society today that actually makes men weaker and women too, so that they are more easily crushed by small things. And so then when you hold up the standard of like, this is where you should be at, people are like, ah, that's too much. It will crush me because I can barely handle my life. Right. And that's unfortunately where we are as a society today that we have so few.

And we were talking about this, I don't know if it was with our kids or who, some friends, like society hasn't seen a war, you know, like a major war or disaster or catastrophe for so long and people are gonna say, oh COVID, no, it's not even, that wasn't even what we're talking about. Like we're talking about World War II here. We're talking about Stalin, we're talking about Mao in China. We've been so.

distant from that for so long that we think normal life with its normal challenges is crushing, right? When I fully understand that it can feel like that and it can seem like that and I'm not saying I want war, you know, so that we can all know what real suffering is, you know? That's not what I'm about, but what I'm trying to say is that it's all relative, ultimately. There are people who have suffered

horrific things and our daily challenges of and it's true for me like you know trying to move to Portugal or whatever all the challenges you're facing are trying to deal with and there's real things too there's suicide and there's anxiety and there's depression and there's you know rape and there's all the things that happen to people they're real challenges and they are hard

Rachel Denning (32:31.854)
but compared to...

The biggest suffering in the world, the Gulag Archipelago for one thing, right? The feeling in the Gulags and having, being tormented and tortured and a society that's starving to death and that's completely based on lies and everybody spying on everyone else, same in North Korea. I guess to me that is my definition of true, real, actually hard suffering that...

We don't really have context for it because nothing like that, at least in my life, has ever happened. I've never been in a, lived in a totalitarian state. I've never been in a war. I've never had to be in a concentration camp. And so in some ways it is this irony that we're crushed more easily by simple things and I include myself in this because I'm not immune because our life lacks more challenge.

And so, you know, going back to these comments that you get.

you're holding up this ideal and people are saying, no, men can't live up to it. They can't handle that pressure. Well, what happens if a war comes? What happens if their family's being attacked? What happens if they have to actually protect themselves and others? Are they gonna be crushed then? Yeah, they are because they can't even handle living up to these ideals and standards. And so it's the pursuit of those ideals that make us stronger and better so that when the hard times actually come,

Rachel Denning (34:11.246)
were more prepared to handle them.

Rachel Denning (34:16.206)
going to be able to hopefully pass the test. Yeah. And so voluntarily choosing challenge and choosing discomfort with not just randomly of like, I'm just going to be uncomfortable. I'm just going to beat myself with cat -and -nine tails or something. It's choosing to rise and that makes all the difference. And I love that. It gives us that strength we need and want. And again, these are things that for me, at least as I see it, have become non -negotiable.

We just work on ourselves harder than we do anything else and we do the uncomfortable thing. We chase the challenge and the purpose and the meaning and the growth to be our best self. And we do it particularly in marriage. And even like I alluded to earlier, asking your spouse where you, how you need to be better and in quietly, humbly listening, you know, not being defensive, not coming up with a list of excuses and say, well, what needs to happen? And.

having the hard conversations and then doing the hard work to make those transformation because and here's why, well there's a couple reasons why it matters so much. One it's your happiness. It's dependent on it. If you're in a marriage and your marriage is miserable, marriage can be either just absolute bliss or absolute misery. Or anywhere in the spectrum. Yeah I guess.

when I work with lots and lots and lots of people, they're either happy or they're miserable. They tend to go one way or the other. But it is going to determine in a large way your existence and the quality of your life and the final outcome. So that's one reason you had to work on it. So you can be happy and in love and have a beautiful relationship. Or at least not be fighting all the time. Right. Just enjoy your life.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, I mean if you if you just step back and say one I'm in this committed relationship This is my life Being married to you. It's my life now some people try to escape it by working all the time create a separate life or entertaining themselves to death they're constantly, you know in a

Rachel Denning (36:40.11)
in a movie or a game or a book, just somewhere, just out, social media, whatever. With friends or... Just escaping it. But if you're present, this is your life. And so we want to have a good life. That's one of the big main ones. The other one is you're literally showing your kids up close how to do life, how to do relationships, how to live in a committed relationship.

how to get along with somebody who's very different than you. And you're modeling for them what marriage can be like. Besides the fact that the state of your relationship directly impacts their own happiness. Your relationship affects their happiness. Children are immensely affected by the happiness of their parents. And I think parents try to...

pretend like they're not affected. Yeah, they, they, I think we get, if you have a conversation like, well, yeah, of course, you know, of course my marriage affects my kids. But then we, they try to kid themselves out of it. Like, well, no, they even try to pretend these couples that are fighting like cats and dogs, they're just barely existing as roommates and they can hardly stand each other. And they're all, and they try to keep it all hidden from the kids as if the kids don't know. Or I think, I mean, it makes perfect sense as humans. We want to, we feel like we're,

not in control of the situation, we can't help the fact that we're fighting and we want to feel like, okay, this is not going to totally ruin my children for the rest of their life, right? And so we need, we have to use these strategies to justify to ourselves that they're going to be okay and whatnot. And in a lot of ways, that's true. Like your children can recover from your unhappy relationship, but it's going to be hard. Like it's not going to be easy. They're going to need some serious help and some real tools. Yeah.

So it's possible, but going back to holding up the ideal, because I feel like that's our job, that's our role, the ideal is you have a happy relationship, which then makes it easier for your children to be happy and to see a happy relationship modeled for them so they then know how to create their own happy relationship. That's the ideal. You're showing them and telling them.

Rachel Denning (39:06.03)
how they will be able to do it in the future. Right. So they, and they get to see it up close. Like this is the closest thing you get to watch kids grow up in your house with you all, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, the wonderful, whatever the tired, the hungry, the, all of it, they get to see it up close. And if you're setting a great example, you're giving them,

model. Right. So they look at that and go, oh okay, that's how this can be done. And setting a great example does not mean having a perfect relationship with no mistakes, no disagreements, because that's not also what it's about. Like you said, we, you and I, are very different people as are most people, most couples. They're very different people and we have different opinions and different beliefs and different strategies and things that we want to do and so they have to learn to

They have to see us learn how to work through all of that and say, well, this is what I think, and this is what you think, and let's figure out, and let's come to a solution. And so modeling for them doesn't mean appearing as these perfect beings that make no mistakes, because that is also actually giving them a disservice. Great point. It's not putting up the mask or the facade. No. Right. It's not pretending. Right. That is not healthy at all. Mm -hmm. Well, it made me think as you were saying that.

many parents.

Rachel Denning (40:38.702)
they have this issue, this thing, whatever. Some couples never talk about money. And so the kids grow up and like, well, we don't talk about money. Like money is just off limits. Some never talk about sex. Some never talk about politics. Or they always talk about something or whenever the topics brought up, they explode and the kids pick up on it and think, oh.

Well, that's how you do like that's something to explode about that's something to implode about that's something to never talk about. And so they go into life. And naturally, they're going to bump into other human beings. They're like, well, no, we always talk about that. We're very open about money. No, you don't dare talk about money. Like whatever is I'm using those are common examples. You're modeling your teach your kids how to behave and

if it's a weird behavior or underdeveloped behavior, you're in a way making it harder for them to succeed in life. So if I have some quirky thing or something that I'm really sensitive about because maybe I didn't work on it myself, well, I just pass it on to my kids. And I literally made their life harder because I didn't help them and show them how to walk through it. So as we...

we're trying to create this, this family environment. Obviously working on me, you're working on you, but now together we're working on our marriage. Cause we want our marriage to be awesome. And we want our kids to see how to create an awesome marriage and to see how good it is. Like dude, life is good when the marriage is good. I want my kids to see that. I want a whole, I,

I don't want them to have to look elsewhere. I don't like that's what I had to do. I had to wander around for years. Like, are there truly happy couples? If so, where are they? I was wandering around looking for good marriages because I hadn't seen one. I don't want my kids to ever have to look elsewhere to see a great marriage. They're seeing it right here in our home and they now know it's possible for so many things in life.

Rachel Denning (43:01.838)
people don't achieve them simply because they've never been exposed to it. They've never seen it before. And so because they've never seen it, they don't like to get it. Yeah. It's a possibility. Right. So now we, we hold that up day in and day out and they're like, all right, okay, this is it's possible. Here's how it looks really, again, being attractive, how we were talking about now you want to be an attractive couple, meaning your kids are drawn to that. They look at it and like, I want that. Right.

Yeah, it becomes an attractive thing where they think, I want to have that. I want to get married. I remember before we met and dated, I dated guys who were like, oh, I don't even want to get married because my parents' relationship. It becomes a thing where I don't want to have a relationship because I saw up close and personal what it looked like and it was ugly. So why would I want that? Wow. Yeah. Wow. So they...

had the model of just a terrible existence and no wonder they would... Why would you want to volunteer to have that? And this is harsh, I realize. I understand that it's harsh, but when you look at your own marriage, is it something your kids would want to produce or recreate? Do they want to get married based on what your relationship looks like? A very close observation of your relationship.

Yeah. Wow. And that's a high standard to live up to and yet it's unavoidable. One way or the other, you're already doing that. You're already forming your children's opinions about marriage based off of your own relationship. You cannot. Yeah. So the only option you have is to make it better. Right. The only power you actually have in that case is not to say, oh, don't look at me kid, because that's not going to happen.

All you can do is change who you are and how your relationship is so that they then get a different impression and say, Oh, actually, this is a positive thing. This is something I want. Now some, some marriages will end. They will. And, and I would even say, that's what I was going to say. Some of them just need to end. They need to end cause they're not, they should have never happened in the first place. Yep. If that's the case, well, and.

Rachel Denning (45:31.118)
about half of marriages and divorces. Well, I don't think it needs to be that. No, but that's what it is. If it has happened or needs to happen.

You can, I think it's critically important that you openly talk to your kids at age appropriate levels about what happened and why, and how it could have been done differently. Acknowledging your spouse's mistakes and your mistakes, the spouse's weaknesses and your weaknesses. Walk them through that with the intent of, Hey,

This is how we messed up. Be aware of that going forward. And I didn't have anybody sit down and do that with me. I naturally did it on my own. When I was 16, because I hated being lonely, I wanted to be married. I sat down and wrote down a list of all the things I had seen of what not to do. It was interesting. I sat down and I'm like, I wanted to write down a list of what to do, but it was interesting. I didn't know. I didn't know what to do.

I remember having that experience. I'm sitting there. I'm like, okay, what do I have to do to have a great relationship? I genuinely didn't know. And so I was like, well, I saw what not to do. And I started writing that down. So initially my list was don't do this. I had seen a whole lot of what not to do. And that was a very instructive and very helpful. And so walk, walk them through that if that's the case, but we're going to hold up this ideal that you're going to work through your marriage. You're going to make it great. Well, I think it's, I want to,

point this out because I think it's very important to understand that many couples get divorced because they have some vision or hope that their life is going to be easier and happier if they get divorced. And the truth is that's usually not the case. You're still going to have challenges and in fact you've complicated your life even more which makes it even more difficult to achieve that happiness that you're aiming for because now you not only have

Rachel Denning (47:40.942)
you still have the same problems with your spouse and you still have to deal with those problems even though they're now your ex -spouse because unless they totally disappear and have nothing to do with your children's lives, they're still going to be involved. And then on top of that, eventually you add your new spouse and their new spouse and potentially their children. And so what happens is you actually have a more complicated situation that you have to learn to navigate as opposed to the previously simple,

situation you had of just you and your spouse and your children. So while many people think, oh things are going to be easier, things are going to be better, we're going to be happier if we get divorced, the reality is that's not true most of the time.

the reverse side those couples who say this sucks We want to get divorced but decide anyways to stick together and work through it end up being happier There's studies on this five years down the line actually end up being happier Compared to those who've got divorced and now actually say that they're no more happier than they were five years ago So I think that's also important to consider that like just because it's hard Doesn't mean you're gonna be happier if you end the marriage

And it really comes down to this willingness that we've been talking about the whole time to change. Yeah. To totally transform yourself. To change and to become more attractive. Yeah. Be way more attractive and make more of yourself. And as you improve yourself, it automatically improves the marriage. Even if your spouse doesn't move initially, you're becoming more. So the stability or instability of your relationship with your spouse is a major contributing factor to the stability of your children.

And I just want to encourage you all just be in love and. Well, be in love, but also learn how to work through the problem. You have challenges. Can we just be in love? Not have to deal. Not enough. Come on, man. It's not enough. Have the bliss and romance. You have to learn how to work through the issues. And that's where most people get hung up. Most couples is because.

Rachel Denning (49:54.286)
They're not willing to do that hard, ugly, uncomfortable work to work through it. And so as a result, they're miserable and their kids pick up on that. And, and you know, this whole series started because we were talking about how to create solid, stable, well adjusted kids essentially. But if you're not solid, stable and well adjusted yourself, you can't, you cannot create those kinds of kids without becoming that yourself first.

And if so, yeah, you as an individual and then your marriage has to be something solid, stable, well adjusted. A great example of what a relationship's like. And it has to be both. I think the the love being in love going on dates regularly, especially going getaways. If you use love as a verb and action word, like being in love means you act in loving ways as opposed to acting in hateful ways. And your kids need to see this like.

Rachel and I are very affectionate and our kids see it. And we go on dates and our kids see it. And we go on getaway trips and our kids see it. And we have disagreements and they see it and they see us work through it and they see us resolve and they see us then, you know, made up or whatever, you know, that we're friendly and happy again. So they're seeing the entire process that...

Yeah, we can get annoyed with each other. We can get bothered because you did this or I did that or whatever. But they see the process being resolved. It's not that we just then bury it and stay mad at each other and the resentment grows and whatnot. We resolve it so that the resentment isn't there. There is no resentment. And the problem isn't there. We've resolved it. We've solved it. So instead of having these...

problems that continue to stack on each other, which is why most people get divorced, is they have problem after problem after problem, stacking and stacking, and they have all of this emotional stacking of these unresolved resentments and issues, until finally they just, like the only solution seems to be to break apart the relationship. Instead of having that, we have resolved issues, and we have resolved resentments, or angers, or hurts, or...

Rachel Denning (52:08.27)
or whatever, like it becomes resolved and solved. For good. We don't keep bringing it back up. So remember that time 10 years ago, Rachel. So then we're able to continue to move forward in, in love truly because we have resolved the issues. But if you avoid resolving the issues, what do you actually have? You just have unresolved issues. Well, it stacks.

Stacks of unresolved issues and emotional stacks and bitterness and anger and then it keeps growing. It only grows. It doesn't get any smaller. It doesn't solve itself. It doesn't go away. And the kids see that. They're not clueless. And then we wonder why our kids have issues or our kids have problems or they don't know how, you know, they're facing or dealing with things and they don't know how to handle it and they don't know what to do about it. Well, the reason is they haven't seen it modeled.

They haven't seen you deal with the issues you're dealing with and resolve them. And so they just think, I guess that's how life is. It's just a bunch of unresolved issues. And so then no wonder they're struggling or having a hard time or dealing with anxiety or depression or whatnot because they feel like they live in a world where we don't have the tools. Humans don't have the tools to solve their problems. We just have to suffer.

and tragically issues in your marriage add to or even give additional issues to the kids. Where if they're struggling something anyways because life's challenging now in addition to that they're they feel the weight of your struggles and you think oh well they shouldn't have to take that on that's not their job. It doesn't matter they do because they they're concerned they're obviously concerned for the outcome of your marriage.

So literally one of the best things you can do for your children is to strengthen your marriage. Get it right. Get on the same page with your spouse. Resolve the conflict. Have the tough discussions. Set up healthy boundaries and maintain them. Do the work. We love to say put your foot down, not on your spouse's foot, but put your foot down and

Rachel Denning (54:34.382)
They work, we're going to make this better. We're going to make this right. Yeah. And if you think, well, I don't know how to do that and I don't know where to start. Well, all of those are just excuses essentially because all the information you could ever want or need on how to do this and how to get better at it and how to strengthen your marriage, it's all out there. It's all available. Now, not all of it is equal value. That's for sure. But there are plenty of resources available. You just have to do the work.

to delve into the information and then apply it. It's really simple, actually. It's not easy, but it's simple. And, well, I'm just sitting here thinking, like, we created how to create an extraordinary marriage course. We have a course. We put the elements there. We have a book list with recommended books. So I'll link to all of these in the book. And Rachel coaches wives, and I coach husbands. And, like, it's all there.

In fact, as you were just saying through that, I created this, I have a, it's called Be the Family Man course. It's seven fundamental principles and practices, just non -negotiable things that every man has to have inside marriage and family life. To be the best version. Right. And you walk through each one, you're like, okay, yeah, I need to have the, and that's, it's that easy. You start with the fundamentals.

The principles that say, man, I haven't been doing that. I'm going to address that. And you address it. And then you pick the next thing. I'm going to work on that. And whether it's you need to drop that extra weight and get in shape, or maybe you have just absolutely sucked at following through and doing what you say you're going to do. And so it starts there. Like, I'm going to be careful what I say. And if I say it, I'm going to do it. Or maybe you just haven't been taking care of.

your work or your house or whatever it is. Just take care of that thing.

Rachel Denning (56:39.79)
And you'll be happier. You'll feel better about yourself. And I promise, as you improve your marriage, your relationship with your children will improve and their overall well -being will improve. That cascade effect again, the ripple effect.

I would dare say that those of you if there are issues in your family dynamics, some of those will be solved and resolved simply by getting your marriage in a better place.

and it is worth every effort.

to get and keep your marriage in a good spot.

because it's awesome.

Rachel Denning (57:34.19)
from our own experience. Absolutely extraordinary. 22 and a half years of marital bliss and some epic life adventures we have. But you guys, we've only been able to chase our dreams, big, big dreams. And I know your dreams are going to look different than our dreams, but the same principle is true. We've been able to chase huge dreams and do bucket lists.

And not only survive, but thrive. And instead of going insane because of the strength of our marriage. Exactly. That's what's made all of this possible. Because if we didn't have each other supporting each other throughout the process, because the process again like any adventure involves pain and suffering and challenge.

And if we, I know, at least for me for sure, if I didn't have your support, I would be a complete disaster. So it's the strength of our marriage and the support that we give to one another that makes it possible for us to do bigger and grander things because we have each other to rely on. Now what's fascinating is previous to this, we never could have articulated what we just articulated.

before we started doing our big adventures, we didn't know like, oh, it's the strength of the marriage that'll allow us to do those things. We couldn't have said that. But because we prioritized our marriage, it then allowed us to have those big adventures. And I only point that out because some of you want these big dreams, these big adventures, and it seems impossible, it's not there yet. And maybe the quality of your marriage is the limiting factor.

So lean into your marriage and it'll open up everything for your shortness of life. Love you guys, reach out for it.