Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:11.694)
Welcome back to the podcast. Today we're coming to you again from Warsaw, Poland. In just a couple of days, we will be leading a World War II trip, which will explore the history here in Warsaw, as well as one of our favorite cities, Krakow. We'll also be visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau concentration camps. So it's going to be a very powerful and special experience.

You might not realize it, but as a parent, you have a moral obligation to make sure that your child or children are not annoying. Why? Because in order for your children to function normally in the world and to have a healthy, happy life, they need to be able to interact effectively in society. They can't do this if they haven't gained the skills of social interaction.

One of the major signs that they are lacking these skills is if they have annoying behaviors. If your children are annoying to you, they're also annoying to others and that's a problem. If a young child develops annoying behavior, and we discuss why this happens in the episode, they don't fully understand why others find them annoying. And so they grow up knowing that people don't like them, but not understanding why they're not liked. This is psychologically unhealthy.

If you want your child to be able to develop healthy, long -lasting relationships with others, which is essential for a life of happiness and fulfillment, then they must learn the skills of effective human interaction and it is your job as a parent to teach them. This isn't about conforming to social norms and expectations or worrying about what other people think. It's about developing solid, principle -based social leadership skills. If you have children who have annoying behavior now,

or might have annoying behavior in the future, then you need to listen to this episode now. In it, we share specific strategies and principle -based techniques for helping children and adults develop healthy self and social leadership skills. If you've ever felt a desire to have more influence with your children and to help improve their behavior, then you don't want to miss this. If you have teens or young adults,

Rachel Denning (02:24.782)
and would like to help them improve their behavior, it's not too late, and we can help you. It's crucial for teens or young adults to develop holistically, including developing social skills and reducing annoying behavior.

We can help you do this when you register them for our Habits for a Successful Life online class. We recognize as parents that the healthiest and happiest people on the planet are well -rounded in their development, mental, emotional, spiritual, physical, social, financial, and we wanted to ensure that our teens would learn how to develop in each of these areas. We couldn't find classes that taught them how to do these things, including developing leadership skills, so we created our own class based off of decades of research into peak.

performance and human development. That is what the Habits for a Successful Life class is all about and teens absolutely love it as well as parents. Here's what one parent recently said, it has been life -changing for us in such a short time and created excitement and passion in our homeschool journey versus the overwhelm and confusion we were living in. The Habits for a Successful Life class becomes one of their favorite classes ever.

and it helps them to develop better habits and an understanding of themselves, human psychology, social interaction, and the ingredients for creating a happy life. Click the link in the show notes to learn more and to read the reviews from students and parents. Thank you so much to those of you who have recently left reviews on our podcast. We really appreciate it. And you're helping to spread the message of creating an extraordinary family life. Living an extraordinary life with your family is possible when you have the right tools.

strategies and principles. And that's why this podcast exists, to share the tools we've discovered and the strategies that work. You can help too. Share an episode with someone you know who would appreciate it or leave a review telling us when and where you listen and what impact, if any, it's had in your life. We truly believe that happy, extraordinary families start with happy, extraordinary, thriving parents who in turn raise happy, thriving children. Together we have a positive impact on our communities, which leads to better nations,

Rachel Denning (04:31.437)
and a better world. You make an impact by becoming the best version of yourself as an individual, spouse, and parent, and then inspiring and guiding those closest to you, your spouse and children, to become their best selves. This is how you change the world. Thank you so much for listening. If you're not already, make sure to follow our travel adventures on Instagram. You can find us at WorldSchoolFamily or at Greg .Denning.

Rachel Denning (05:06.221)
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the extraordinary Family Life podcast. We're your host, Greg and Rachel Denning. If you're just joining us or new, we're bringing this show temporarily from the beautiful city of Warsaw, Poland. We're out traveling with our family. We've been out on this trip for six weeks now. Yeah. Six weeks of Austin us through Scandinavia.

and the Baltic states and just how exploring with our kids is having, well, I'll pause here for a second. Like is gathering great memories and priceless experiences is just that. It's priceless. It's one of the most valuable things you can do as a family. And it's one of the, we think, best and most effective ways to grow and expand and learn.

and build relationships. Now obviously you can go out and travel and it doesn't help your relationships because, well that's what we're talking about today, you gotta work on it, it has to be deliberate and proactive to get all that stuff dialed in so travel doesn't fix your problems if you take your problems with you. But it is one of the best ways to create memories that you have forever. Well it can be a...

facilitator or it can be leverage for growth and development. Yep. It's great leverage. It's used properly. Yep. Okay. So today let's just dive right in. It is your responsibility and obligation to make sure your kids are not annoying.

Now there's a lot to that and we want to kind of explore that whole idea but it must start with that fundamental premise that it is your responsibility as their parents to make sure your kids are not annoying and that's to teach them and lead them and guide them not to...

Rachel Denning (07:21.357)
manipulate or scare or threaten or abuse.

Well, sometimes that's why kids are annoying is because parents are doing that. Exactly. But I think we have to kind of back up and because I know there's some people I know I used to kind of think like this where I felt there was something wrong with me if I found my kids annoying. And there's definitely truth to that. Like, oh, it's my problem if I'm annoyed by my kids. Absolutely. I want to circle back to that one. Right. But what we want to address today is this idea that it's your responsibility to make sure your kids aren't annoying because if your kids are annoying to you, it's like,

they're annoying to other people and when they are annoying to other people you're actually doing them a disservice. Massive. They are not, especially as children, they're not able to comprehend why their behavior is annoying to people and if you never teach them why then they never learn appropriate social skills of like how do I have interactions with people without annoying them to death, right? Like how do I...

This is when you feel in a word for me because I'm like, what's the word? How do I comport? That's not even the right word. How do I portray myself? How do I carry myself in the world so that I am not annoying?

And we think, well, that's just other people's problem if they're annoyed by me or annoyed by my kid. And you're like, yeah, there is truth to that. But at the same time, if you want to have healthy, long lasting relationships with people, which we all do, you have to learn how to curve that annoyingness or you're going to constantly be pushing people away and you're going to be lonely and miserable. Exactly. So if you don't help your child understand all of those aspects of social interaction,

Rachel Denning (09:11.599)
you are doing them a disservice because they go through the world...

annoying people and then wondering why nobody likes them. Yeah, and that's a sad place for a kid to be in. And beyond like they don't like them or like relationships don't work out obviously, but job opportunities are passed up or don't work out or even investment opportunities or all these experiences even like what we're just talking about like traveling the world and having epic experiences. You can't do that effectively and you can't have a healthy

happy, successful life if you don't know how to get along with people. Right. And that starts in the home and with interactions between siblings and parent and child. It's the parent's responsibility to provide guidance for the child of saying, no, that's inappropriate behavior.

Ultimately because you know it's not going to help you with all these things we're talking about but because there are boundaries in social interactions. There just are. Like and you know we used to be on the side of other people's opinions of me are not in my business. Which is true. Which is true and they just need to deal with it which is true but also you have to understand that there are...

when you're interacting in a society, the things that make society function essentially are social interactions. Without the ability to interact as human beings, our society could not function. We wouldn't have all of the things we have. We wouldn't have roads and schools and businesses and all of the, you know, everything that makes society function if we didn't have proper, predictable, appropriate social interactions. That's what creates order instead of

Rachel Denning (11:04.271)
chaos. That's what brings peace instead of war. And so we have, there is this level where we have to play into that despite our ongoing messages of unconventionality and all that, which applies. But you still, we are unconventional people and yet we still realize the importance of being able to interact socially.

in an appropriate manner because it's so key. Now what we're not saying here, and I want to make this clear, is that you need to acquiesce and cower to social, what we call social conditioning. Or norms or expectations. Of these norms, social norms or social expectations or walk around. I think this is where - Conforming and - I think this is where most people get this wrong.

is they're so worried about the opinions of other people. They're so worried about how they're being perceived in society.

And so they're reactive like that to their kids. So it's almost like they're trying to do what we're talking about, but missing the mark. And it might be coming from the wrong motive. Like what's the driving force here? Is it like you're worried about what your neighbors think or what some random stranger thinks? Or again, are you worried about it? Are you fretting about it? Do you feel anxious about it?

Are you, you're going around and just really just trying to rein your kids in cause you want them to, I don't know. Like what's your, or well of you or random strangers. You're out. I mean, it's so funny. We give so much credence and so much weight to some random stranger. Like we don't want to ask our kids, hold on. Let me finish this off. I'm like, this is not that message. We're not saying just coward or whatever because society will change and, and social conditioning will change.

Rachel Denning (13:04.685)
And you may live in an area where like it's just weird social funk where we've been in places where they're like they don't like children at all and they expect children to behave like adults or they have some strange social rule about what's acceptable here. And to those kind of things I'm like kiss off like whatever. And again we've traveled.

to many, many countries around the world, very respectful to culture and tradition and places and people, and want to be appropriate. But if there's some funky, weird, or even you meet certain people that they have their own bizarre ideas, just really weird ideas about what people or children especially can or can't do, kiss off. Whatever. I don't give a f***.

crap and I will always defend my children and allow them to act their age. I will always allow my kids to act their age. Now that's not an excuse, it's not a rationalization or justification to allow your kids to do whatever or to be annoying. We can't allow our kids to be annoying. Acting their age does not have to be equivalent to be annoying. Now of course that

can depend because then that circles back to the other side of you're just annoyed by six -year -old behavior, right? That's another storm. So yeah, circling back to sometimes it is the parent. You're just easily annoyed and that's you. You got to own that and you've got to overcome that. If you're easily bothered by small things, I've been saying this for years, only small people are bothered by small things. So stop being so small. You've got to overcome that crap. And that's just...

I don't know, to me it's just immature and underdeveloped. If you're just easily bothered by small things, like that's retarded. If a six -year -old behaves like a six -year -old and that bothers you, like you have some growing to do, that's on you. And it's on the people you might interact with. If they just don't like children or whatever, it's like, dude, that's on you, like grow up. And I mean that's, I'm gonna get fired up now. Like grow up, that's just so underdeveloped and immature. It's really pathetic, it honestly is pathetic.

Rachel Denning (15:23.981)
because okay, there's here's why it's pathetic, because you have an adult behaving like a little child, an underdeveloped child, that's pathetic. That's annoying.

And then, so then, and again, I want to really emphasize here, that's an eight -year -old behaving like an eight -year -old. It's not an eight -year -old throwing a tantrum and acting like a little... Four -year -old. Four -year -old or whatever. So, yes, so now I want to go back to this idea because six -year -old behavior actually has a scale. And as we've traveled around the world and interacted with different people, we've seen both extremes of this scale. One of them is the controlling parent who...

wants their child to behave and so the child is kind of stifled and squelched and they're required to behave older than their age and you know sit still and not move and not do anything childish or playful or fun and then we've seen the other extreme of that coming back to this idea where people are reacting, they're reacting to oh what are people thinking of me, what are my in -laws thinking of me, what are my neighbors thinking of me, people at church and so they're confining and then we've seen the people that

want to be unconventional, they want to throw that off and then they go to the other extreme where we've literally met parents who in the name of throwing off social norms have thrown off all expectations, requirements, boundaries for their child and we've seen the child floundering, throwing out, flailing, searching for something to grab onto, to hold onto, to say where is the ground here? Where is the boundaries? Where are the...

You know, how am I supposed to behave? They don't know. And, you know, specifically there is this family in Costa Rica when we lived there years ago. And this poor child was just so lost as far as how to behave because his mother had no expectations, no boundaries, no discipline. And he had the worst behavior I've ever seen. You couldn't even, you know, we invited him over to play with our boys who at the time were six.

Rachel Denning (17:36.237)
five and six, and they couldn't even play with him because he had such horrible behavior that he couldn't have normal interactions. He couldn't play with other kids because his behavior was so wretched. He didn't know how to act. Which is so profound and insightful and sad. It was very sad. I remember feeling so sad for this kid. Children, like, play is their thing. Mm -hmm.

Play is a child's entire world in reality. And this kid, because he had zero - Structure. Structure, foundation, framework, boundaries, anything, he couldn't even do a normal, healthy, happy thing that children do. He couldn't be a child because he had no framework and no structure. And the crazier, I really want this to sink in, so listen really carefully right here. Crazy behavior is an attempt -

to find something solid to hold on to. This is especially true with very strong -willed children. Some children will just come in like, okay, they'll figure it out. Some of you have a child or two. It seems like many families have at least one child that's just very, very strong -willed. Just, man, they've got personality, power, drive. They're really after it.

Those children especially, they need something to hold onto that they can count on. And children want structure. They need structure. They desperately, it's a human need. They want to know - Where are the boundaries? And it's almost like this, it's a position of safety and security and trust. It's a foundation to be like, okay, I know -

what will hold up here. I know that there's something I can count on, but in this case with this lady, it's like, oh, whatever, anything. Yeah, he would start throwing a fit. He would start throwing a tantrum. I mean, this kid was five or six or seven and he was throwing tantrums like he was two or three. And her response was, it's okay, honey. Yeah, you're upset, you know.

Rachel Denning (20:01.901)
there was no boundary of like, no, this is not acceptable here. And that should have obviously started at a younger age because then that would have been in place. It actually starts at two and three. Yeah. But so it's not the kid's fault because he's again, pushing the boundaries. That's what a two year old does. They're pushing the boundaries, trying to find where are the boundaries. And if those boundaries aren't clear and firm, and that doesn't mean authoritarian,

Totalitarian like. Yeah, it doesn't mean you're blowing up and yelling and screaming and going up. That's not how you define boundaries. Like being manipulative or abusive in any way, shape or form. It's none of that. But there has to be a boundary. But if they keep pushing and keep pushing and keep pushing and they never find the edge, they never find the boundary, like they feel like they're. They're completely lost.

floating in the sea, drowning. It's like, yeah, you're drowning or like you have zero gravity and there's nothing that you can lean against and hold on to because as soon as you grab it, it moves. So that's exactly what is happening with this kid. And that's kind of in a way what a tantrum is. It's this child just floundering and throwing themselves about like, where is security here? Where can I find something firm to hold on to? And

The more that goes on, that just creates psychological issues for the rest of their life. They never find those hard lines. Then like Rachel alluded to earlier, then you get into society and things don't work and you don't know why. You move from job to job to job, from school to school, place to place, relationship to relationship. You always think, what's the place? It's the situation. Oh, it's the people at that place. Oh, no, it's the people at that place.

Like, no, it's you. But you don't know that and you've never been taught that. So I really want to emphasize this. You, parent, have to be that solid, firm thing that the child can rely on. And that's important that we visualize that and wrap our heads around.

Rachel Denning (22:17.005)
We're solid, it's like a lighthouse. The wind and the waves of life and of behavior can just smash against it and it stays solid, it's there. And so they realize, oh, I can count on this. I can rely on this. But if you're trying to count on a lighthouse but the lighthouse keeps moving, we can't count on that.

Or if a big wave comes in, life out just tumbles. Shoot, you can't count on that. Or if you come in and there's some wind and waves and life's crazy and the lighthouse starts throwing rocks back at you or shooting at your ship, because you're like, help, I need help. And you're like, what's going on here? And so I want you to visualize and see all this imagery, because some of your, that's how some parents are doing their parenting.

And maybe they don't know, maybe they were raised that way or maybe they're just trying to figure it out themselves. Well, that's likely the case. But the responsibility is you have to figure it out. You got to figure this out and figure out how to do it well and train your children so that they can count on you. I mean, I guess the first piece of that is the only way you can teach your children how to not be annoying is if you yourself know how not to be annoying. And that takes ...

It's not as black and white as we might think because as we mentioned before, there most certainly are times you need to be a nonconformist and to be unconventional and to buck the system and to go against social conditioning. And when others are like, well, you shouldn't do this, your kids will. And you stand your ground and say, oh no, oh no, sir. No, madam. Yeah, you have to find that.

that balance between standing up for yourself and having confidence and also being respectful to other people and respecting their viewpoints and their...

Rachel Denning (24:26.189)
ways of approaching the world, their world views. So it's not a straightforward thing. It does require a lot of skill. And so that is part of it for sure, is developing that in yourself. And then of course there are strategies and techniques for...

applying this to your daily interactions with your child. And one of those simple things, I think one of the most basic strategies is having clear expectations about what is acceptable in your house. Now in some ways, it doesn't matter what that is. Like of course there's some exceptions. But as long as you have clarity about what you want your family to be like and your family culture, your home life,

be like and you have clear rules and expectations and then you hold by them, that's the start of it. That's where it begins. And I agree with you. I know you have more to say about that. Unless your expectations are weird.

or bizarre or irrational. Irrational. There's something fascinating about kids where they, without being able to articulate it, of course, because they don't have the ability, they're able to pick up on things that just don't make sense. If you're like, this is how we do things in our house. And they're like, what? That's not relevant at all. And they don't know how to tell you that. They just will start acting out. Right. And they'll rebel. It's like something in our wiring is like, no, that's,

That's stupid. And it's off. And we've met, we've met parents with the best intentions and just huge hearts, good, good people. They come up with these really strange arbitrary rules and I can see they're trying to, they're trying to establish high standards. They're trying to be high standard people, but you're like, Whoa, what? Like that's the dumbest rule. And I want to get a specific - They'll go down.

Rachel Denning (26:30.541)
Like they'll die defending this thing. And you're actually fighting, you create these huge battles with your own children. For something that doesn't need to be a battle. So there's a war zone in your house because you're going to maintain the standard. And in a way, you're actually trying to do what we're talking about here, trying to help your children. But you've picked a rule that's just dumb. So I think a great example for this, which comes to my mind anyways, which...

was something my dad used for, you know, when I was a teenager was this idea, and I know in some ways it might come from the culture we grew up in, our religious culture, this idea that midnight.

You must be home at midnight because after midnight, the devil, like nothing good happens after midnight. Like there's horrible things that happen after midnight. And so parents will have this hard, fast rule that your curfew is midnight, you must be home at midnight. If you're home at 1201, you've broken the rule, you're grounded, like all of these hardline things. And I just laugh at that now. For one thing, we've never had a curfew with our kids.

Never. But we've always taught them the principle of self -governing and appropriate behavior. And if you model well and teach well, you don't need the hard arbitrary line because... Of 12 o 'clock if you're... You don't even need a curfew. It's not needed because the kids...

are self -directed. They make good decisions. Exactly. And if it's going to be later, you know they're making good choices and it's only every once in a while. So you're like, great. Exactly. Not a problem. OK, you're right. We got to dive into this one. Because if you step back and say, OK, let's really think through this. At 11 .59, you're OK. At 12 .01, you're OK.

Rachel Denning (28:28.077)
all hell and Satan and his minions are unleashed for some reason. But it's according to each time zone. Yes. Because it moves west, of course, because he works. He follows the night around the globe and only working at that time in the dark. So like poor people who live in Barcelona and they take their families out to eat at 1130 because they have a very I mean, the restaurants to open till 10 or 1030.

So if you take your family out to dinner and you're enjoying a meal at 1159, at 1201, you guys better just pray and fast and plead. You better call the spiritual police to escort you to your house because all hell is about to break. Oh, those poor Spanish people. You see what I'm saying? I'm mocking this because it's stupid.

because we have seen it. We've literally seen parents who... Well, okay, there's thousands of examples of that. I know. Who believe this and they make it such a huge deal to their children that it disrupts their life. And so the children are sitting there, the teenagers are thinking, this really doesn't make sense. Like, I don't get that. Why is it really that much of a difference at 1201 compared to 1159?

And so in their mind they're thinking, this doesn't add up.

But they don't know how to articulate this with you or to have a conversation and just debate it with you. Or if they do, they get in trouble. And so their response is either one, they cower and they conform and they do what you say, which is not a good thing. You think that that's a good thing. It's not. Stacking resentment. You're killing their own decision -making capabilities. Or on the other side, they rebel, which is actually what I ended up doing as a teenager. I rebelled.

Rachel Denning (30:22.669)
I rebelled against that because in my mind I knew it didn't make sense and my only response because I didn't have the ability to put it in words was to rebel through my behavior by saying this doesn't make sense and so I'm going to act in a way that's opposite what you want, how you want me to act. So.

It's those types of things, when we're talking about, you know, you need to have standards and boundaries and rules, we're talking about principles and guidelines, not these hard and fast 12 o 'clock, you're home. And we're using this as an example. I mean, there's plenty of other ways that this happens and plays out in a parent -child relationship. But what we're saying is it needs to be reasonable. It needs to be something that makes sense to a reasoning human being, which includes your children. Your children?

going back to what I said before, they intuitively know when things don't make sense. Like that just doesn't line up for me. And yeah, I guess worth emphasizing there, it's the principle and the practice. It's the important life lessons and good habits. That's what we want. And it's...

You know, in this particular instance, it's not affected by the clock. Some of the most important humanitarian work I have done and will ever do will be after midnight.

Rachel Denning (31:50.797)
So it's just hard to try to attack. I know it's with good effort and good intentions, but to try to say that behavior is tied to the clock is kind of silly. Now obviously we realize, I mean, sleep is one of the things we'll talk about today. We need to get to bed most of the time at a decent hour and get good sleep. In fact, well, that's worth talking about that right now.

Food and sleep are like, it's double trouble right there. They are the destroyers of good, happy, healthy humans. If food is off, either by the poor quality of food or just not getting enough nutritional value, if that's off. Which we were gonna do a podcast about food, which.

I think we still will because that one just gets me fired up. Because it's so confusing. Like everyone is so confused nowadays. I feel like they have no clue about what's actually healthy for you. It's not salad. We'll come back. But the biggest red flags, the biggest problems are like chemicals, preservatives, additives. Almond milk, soy milk. Yeah, those things. Like anything that's just not...

Whole foods. And whole and from a really, really, really good source.

is most likely wrecking things. We've done podcasts about this before we're talking about four. So much behavior is food driven and sleep driven. And so if you or your children are not getting good sleep, good quality sleep and good quality food and good portions,

Rachel Denning (33:35.213)
then that's 100 % affecting behavior. 100 % is huge. Okay, so I think this is a good strategy or technique because one of the first things I look at any time my children are quote unquote misbehaving, one of the very first things I look at is when did they go to bed last night and what have they eaten today? That's where I start. Before I do anything else, even my interaction with them per se, like in my head I'm thinking, when did they go to bed last night? Oh, they went, whoa, we were up late.

last night, they're up till midnight. No wonder. No wonder they're behaving like this. So that's the first place. And then I'm thinking about their food. Are they hungry? Because that definitely makes a difference if they're hungry or not. You know, hangry is a real thing. I look, that's where I go first. And this is true for the parent. Oh, absolutely. Because you're like, I'm so annoyed with my kids. I'm like, wait a minute, what time do you go to bed? You're like, well, I went to bed late and I got woken up a couple of times. Oh, have you had breakfast? No, I haven't eaten. You're like, whoa, you shouldn't open your mouth. Yeah. You should go feed yourself.

yourself and take a nap before you respond and enjoy your relationship. No, so that's so true. So before I do any sort of disciplining or boundaries or anything like that, I look at that and I say, okay, we both need some food. We both didn't sleep well. That's the first reason this is happening. That's always the case. That is the first reason that any of this is happening. After that, then I look at...

How is our connection? Right? Have I cuddled with them recently? Have I?

Have we held them? Have we talked? Have we interacted in a meaningful way? If we haven't done that, that's where I go next. I don't even discipline my kids at all until I have cuddled with them. And we hug, by the way. I'm just going to throw this out there. We hug our children very first thing in the morning and last thing before bed. And we hug multiple times during the day. We have touch. Some of you may be like, we're just not a huggy family. We don't express love much. And to that, I would kindly but firmly say change it.

Rachel Denning (35:39.407)
You be the change in that tradition, because it's got to stop. Human beings need affection, they need expressions of love, and they need touch. So if your family culture or family dynamics have been that way, change it. And you know, well, not every family needs it. I'm bogus. They need it. And we want healthy, happy human beings that are just thriving. We can...

We can talk about that one in person sometime, but there's no way. I've just seen so many families across so many countries and continents, like, sorry, I'm holding my ground on that one. Be more loving. And that's what you're saying. You're like, well, it's cuddle, connect, touch, talk. Like there has to be this healthy bond.

And maybe part of your problem. And again, a child's not going to be able to articulate that. If they just feel distanced or cold or unloved or like just the dynamics. Like a child. And there's even studies they watched. This was so sad. These orphanages. Wasn't it in Russia like in the 60s, I think they just wanted to see if babies survived, how they responded to to love and touch and being held and some that were held and others were not. They just want to see. And the

babies that weren't held and cuddled and touched and loved just died. And they wouldn't eat and they wouldn't function. I mean this children need this so that a child comes in the world with a clean slate. They don't know what to expect. They don't know where the boundaries are. They don't know what the framework is but they have hardwired biological spiritual social needs and if the needs aren't being met then then they're growing up.

and something's off. And this is one of the things that's off. So parent, you need to be more affectionate and more loving. That's the part of that firmness, that's something they can count on. And it's not being held out as a reward. I'll hug you if, or I'm gonna withhold hugs and kisses and praise and love if you're a little turd.

Rachel Denning (37:52.557)
Like, it can't be manipulative like that and it can't be, you know, if you're inconsistent, sometimes you hug them and love them and sometimes you don't and they're like, what the hell? They don't know, then they start blaming themselves. Oh, absolutely they do. So here is one of the, I think one of the major shifts that played a huge, had a huge positive impact on my parenting. And that was that understanding that...

I cannot withhold my love and affection because my child is misbehaving. And I know that for me, initially that was my tendency. When my kid was being annoying, I was like, annoyed. So I didn't want to hug them or kiss them or touch them. I'm like, ugh, get away, you're annoying.

And people use it as we used to use it and parents use it as a consequence. Yeah, right. I learned to switch that and it's made all the difference. I've learned to realize that when that kid is acting in that annoying way, what they really need is more of my love and attention. And when I give it to them, it is amazing how it like diffuses the situation. It calms them down. It brings them peace.

and it brings back the good behavior. So one of my very first responses to misbehavior now is like, let's cuddle. Let's go cuddle on the couch. And we sit down and we cuddle together.

until they change their state and they feel better and now the behavior goes away or they're prepared to talk about it because maybe you know the sister took a toy or this or that or something happened you can talk about it better once they've calmed down after some cuddling with you so that's my first approach now is let's cuddle and it's fascinating i actually saw i actually saw my eight -year -old do this with my six -year -old one time they were kind of disagreeing about something and her response was like let's go cuddle on the couch santi

Rachel Denning (39:43.407)
And they got together and they cuddled and then they felt better and it's amazing how that actually works and it works with Teenagers it works with my 12 year old Like when you get adults works with you. Yeah when you give more love and affection It helps the situation because part of the cause for their misbehavior is a lack of feeling Love and connection or some for some low state for some reason whatever the reason yeah And so if you get into a better state?

as the parent and the child is in a better state. I guess this is a good reminder here, always make decisions and always respond from a better state. If you're not in a good mental emotional state, be careful what you say or do. You might just need a pause and be like, hey, give me a minute. Let me think about this before I react. Otherwise you're just reactive and explosive and you say and do things in the moment that you don't want to do it. So do they.

So just don't allow that from you or them. Just be like, hey, let's get into a better state before we say things. Because, well, here's another simple example. In the heat of the moment, if you're reactive, and you might, this might be because you're hungry or tired. And so then you, oh, that's it. And you do this. Taking away this, you're granted for a month. Huge consequence, yeah. And then you have to try and enforce that. You've created a month of fighting because of your moment of.

Yeah. Hunger -driven anger. Yep, exactly. And now, then if you back out on that, they're like, well, they don't even keep their word. And if you stick to it, you're an idiot because... Well, that was a dumb consequence anyway. That was stupid. And you often come up with completely disconnected consequences too. Right. Which goes back to the thing of like, if it doesn't make sense to the child, they're just going to be like, so stupid. It doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So...

That's another thing, we already mentioned it, but I kind of want to emphasize it, that I'm always looking at that. If I am feeling annoyed or irritated or frustrated and I'm like, okay, how did I sleep? What have I eaten? That's where I look first for me and instead of just continuing to move through the day feeling annoyed and grumpy, I want to fix that so I'm better, in a better state for making better decisions and having better interactions with the kids. All of this preventative work is the basis of how,

Rachel Denning (42:05.967)
a good family life. Like it would solve so many problems for so many people if we understood that. It keeps you and your children from being annoying. Exactly. At least it begins a process. Yeah, well and it's so... The preventative work is so much easier, right? You guys have heard that saying to prepare and prevent is so much easier than to repair and repent. And if we're getting good sleep...

if we're eating healthy food, if we're hugging and cuddling and expressing love and having conversations and doing good things together, if we're as a family living a good life story, we all have goals we're working on, we all have challenging things we're choosing to do, we all have something we're excited about, all of those elements in place, it's...

makes it so easy to not have annoying children. Right. Well, and I want to add to this, I think another thing is if the child is feeling like they're getting enough attention. Because along with feeling love and connected, that's another one of those things. And it's especially easy sometimes for the youngest child. I know sometimes our youngest is like yelling because she can't be heard in this large family of nine unless she's the loudest one in the room.

Well, which is true and that's important to remember. Where does your kid fit in the family? And where we have a very loud family, they're all bigger than her. She's the smallest person in a very loud family. There's usually music going and loud talking. So for this adorable, teeny little person to feel heard, she has one volume. But she's learned that from us. Exactly. It's trained. She's like,

She's born into this world. Again, please, please, please remember how your child comes into the world. They don't know. And even you might think, well, I told them or they should know by now. It's like, no, they're little kids. They're even six and eight and 12, even 16. They still don't know.

Rachel Denning (44:20.749)
I mean, your brains are still developing. So it's this empty slate of trying to figure out what is life all about. And so she just comes in, she doesn't know any different. She's like, okay, I gotta have some volume here if I'm gonna be a part of this crowd, because this is how things work. That's her reality. And it's adorable. So we can't bust her chops for being loud. That's her life experience.

Right, so there's that, or sometimes it's the middle child, a kid that's kind of in the middle, and the older kids get the attention, and the younger kids get the attention because she's yelling, and so they feel like they have a lack of attention, and so all of these things...

freed misbehavior. And so if your kid's not getting enough attention, very often, along with the cuddling, is just one -on -one attention with them. Playing with them, doing games with them, taking them on dates, like...

I think parents could solve a lot of misbehavior problems if they committed to, say your kid's been misbehaving, right? And you don't know what to do about this. It's chronic, it's consistent, it's now habitual because they've come into the world and this is what they know. This is the only way they know how to act because they've been trained to act that way. And it's a plea for attention. That's the vehicle. Yeah. And so I would just dedicate...

and however long, you know, indefinite period of time to just giving them that attention that they need and crave and that would help to fix their behavior. Because now instead of them flailing about, acting up, trying, what they're doing is trying to get attention.

Rachel Denning (46:09.325)
they now feel like, oh, I don't have to get attention in that way because I'm getting attention in the positive ways. Because what's happening from a psychological viewpoint of this child, they obviously don't know how to explain this, but what they are doing is saying, I'm being ignored. Nobody's paying attention to me unless I scream, yell, bite, kick, fight, you know, then suddenly everyone notices me. I get so much attention. I get so much attention when I...

I do that, I guess I have to keep doing that because I need attention. And so if we can totally switch that, this preventative measure, we start giving them the attention beforehand, sincere, present attention. And you, I mean, it's not something you can just do once and fix the problem. This is like, now has to become a part of your life. It's a part of your daily habits and interactions. It starts with giving them a hug in the morning and then listening to them.

them every single time they talk, oh my gosh that's something else I want to talk about, but you know you start giving them this attention and wow over time everything switches because now they have what they need and they don't have to get it by being annoying or misbehaving. Every human being is hardwired for that we just come that way we need attention.

We need to feel noticed, seen, heard, loved. If you have children, you have to give each of them adequate attention. And if they feel, again, they're not receiving it. Well, they feel like they're not receiving it. They're going to, that's the, they're going to choose a vehicle to get it. Now the vehicle doesn't always make sense. So misbehaving, being annoying, acting up, rebelling, doing crazy stuff.

That's the vehicle they've chosen. They don't know any better. They're just subconsciously choosing a vehicle to get attention. But that vehicle's unnecessary if they just get it by default. And as a parent, that is your responsibility to give them the attention. Now, if you're sitting there, I can just hear some of you be like, but...

Rachel Denning (48:24.845)
I'm so busy, I'm so overwhelmed, I just can't do it, I don't know how to get... And this is where I very lovingly but firmly say, get your stuff together so you can do this.

Fix your own stinking problems and get your life in order. Right. Because this is your job. There is no other more important job than to be a good parent. And I see too many parents trying to do too many other things with church and PTA and this and the neighbors and the cookies and the blah. I'm like, what the hell are you doing?

Your first job is to be a mom and if you can't do that well, you shouldn't be doing anything else. Exactly. If you're struggling in the least with any of your children, you have a moral obligation to say no to everything else outside the home and get your crap put together.

And I think that has been one of the, quote unquote, secrets to our success with our families, because we're really good at doing that. We say no to a lot of stuff. There are a lot of things we just do not do. Because our focus is on making our family the best it can be, because we truly believe that if you want to make the world a better place,

That's where it starts. If we can't have a fully functioning, happy, operational family, like how can we expect to do anything else well? That's where it begins. And so then back to this thing I mentioned a second ago that I, this drives me crazy. And I see it all the time. And I used to do it too. So I get it. When I was a new mom, I did this all the time. But I will see parents ignoring.

Rachel Denning (50:08.589)
their children, literally ignoring their children from the time they're babies until all the way up to teenagers. Their child will talk to them and they completely ignore them as though they don't exist. Now I know that that's not what they're trying to do in their mind, but say the child will be crying or the baby's crying or they're upset and they will let them cry and cry and cry and do nothing about it.

Or they feel like they try to do something or they don't know what to do about it. It's actually been suggested by some quote, parenting experts. Just let your children cry. No. Like, oh my gosh. What actually works and what actually creates healthy psychological foundation is...

When the child is crying or talking to you, they're trying to communicate their needs to you. They don't know where else to fulfill those needs. You're their parent. You brought them into this world. You're the source of their food, their comfort, their everything. They're coming to you communicating what they need.

It might be through crying, it might be through talking about something. If you don't listen and pay attention and then take action to fulfill that need, then they feel, back to this idea of floundering, they feel unstable. They feel like, wow, I'm in this world and I turn to the people I trust for help and they don't listen and they don't fulfill my needs. I'm unsafe. I feel completely unsafe because I don't know where to have my needs fulfilled.

And so, you know, we've always been very, not always, we've learned to be very intentional about when our child is talking to us. And of course we're not perfect at this because there's chaos and the world, you know, and sometimes they're talking to you while five other people are talking to you. And, you know, but, you know, especially with our babies, when they're crying or they're, something's off, we give them our full attention and we help their needs be met in that moment because that's the foundation of their,

Rachel Denning (52:14.927)
future security and success. Especially when they're small. They come into the world, again clean slate, they come into the world and they get a framework of like, okay there's somebody here that notices me, that loves me, that pays attention. I am seen, heard, felt, understood. I'm okay.

Yeah, and that starts with the very beginning of when your baby's hungry, you feed them instead of, oh, well, you know, I'm busy and I'm talking to my friends. Just take the baby, let them cry. They'll be fine. Don't feed them except on certain times. Yeah, or a certain time schedule. Like that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of. It doesn't work because when the child doesn't understand it.

And yeah, you can train them to do that, but that doesn't mean they're going to be psychologically healthy because of it. Because when they say, I am hungry, I'm being eaten alive by this hunger, I need food, I'm crying for food, and you ignore that? They just feel like, wow, this world is crazy. It's unstable.

And so you meet those needs. Jordan Peterson says all the time, you cannot spoil a child under the age of six months. And I would say even after a year. You cannot spoil a child. So when you give them what they need, whenever they need it, you're not spoiling them. You're setting them up for success in life. For safety and security. Right. And preventing future misbehavior because you have the solid foundation of, I live in a safe world and a safe family. I can trust these people. And so,

it produces better behavior. Here's a little tactic that goes with that is I always try to get down to the kids eye level. This has been huge for me because whoever's talking to I go down so they just clicked for me one day I'm like they're looking up at us like we're just giants. I was like what if because I'm six feet tall I'm like what if I were looking up at it I was a some giant I was at his waist line and I'm just staring up like hey

Rachel Denning (54:20.047)
can I ask you something way up there? And like that just it just feels weird. And so I just getting down right in face level and just even like holding a hand while they're talking or some touch or something or even now with my big kids right just a hand on the shoulder or something just something so like I'm present. It just it just helps to get in this healthy state which

then eliminates so much of the annoying behavior. Yeah, I think that's another part of this, paying attention to your kids when they're talking, is that when you touch someone when they're talking, it lets you both know that you're there, you're present with them. It's really helpful with just bringing you both into the moment. So when your child does misbehave, when they do something that is annoying, the most effective way...

The most important thing obviously is to model an example, like show them from the get -go. They're noticing, they're paying attention. You have to articulate it, but show them how to behave, how to be respectable and respectful. Show them the way to do this. And then when they are offline, just teach them. I think sometimes we react too quickly.

and we discipline when teaching was sufficient. Or cuddling or attention. Right, yeah. And so we're using the wrong tool. It's like we're using a hammer when we're trying to screw something. The time for discipline.

If you're doing all the preventative things, if you have healthy relationships, if your habits are in line for each individual and for a family, disciplining is... It's down the road. It's down the line. It's way down and so rare. Yeah, I would say... We don't...

Rachel Denning (56:21.741)
We almost never discipline. There'll be phases in each child's life, right? And there's little time periods where there's a little more disciplining, because they're going through a phase of like, whoa, I was trying to figure things out. So maybe when they're two, there's some more disciplining there. And when 12. And then 12. But there's only these little phases, and you have to have more love and more deposits into the race to make it count and more time and attention to make up for some of the disciplining. But.

Apart from that, like we just teach. If you have the preventative measures in place, then yeah, you use teaching and the disciplining it is. It's maybe 5 % of what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then there's going to be time periods where it's like 1%. Like you don't even need to bring it out. Right. But so your number one tool is teaching. Put like, then visualize this. Take that. You got a tool belt on as a parent.

Teaching is your go -to tool. Just have that in your tool belt and you don't have to get out the discipline tools. Right. And then when you do, it's so subtle, it's so easy that it's incredible. Here's a little example I remember that's kind of funny. We were getting ready to move out of our house in Georgia and we're...

moving to Portugal, that's the plan, we're traveling now in between. And I think you were gone, our other son was gone with you, you guys were in Guatemala with our 12 year old, so at home was just me, our oldest son, our oldest daughter is on, you know, she's moved out, and our 15 year old, and our younger kids. And so we were doing most of the packing and moving and cleaning and all that kind of stuff. And we had some errands that needed to get done, all these other things, you know.

and I had asked my son to do something and he kind of said something like, well, I was gonna do this. I wanted him to go do an errand or something. And I really needed him to do it. Right? Like it was one of those things that I'm like, I need you to do this, right? And all I said was,

Rachel Denning (58:29.005)
I've been doing a lot for you lately, you know, and he's like, okay, yeah, I'm sorry, mom. Yep, you're right. You are totally right. I'm going to go do it right now. Like that's, I just had to say a little word of like, you know, remember I have done a lot for you. And he's like, yes, you are so right. I'll go do it right now. And it's like, this wasn't a guilt trip. No, it was not manipulative. You're not like, you're like, Hey, I do a lot for you. Like it's not guilt or it's just a reminder. And it was just that subtle quick reminder.

The very thing of like, you know, you can call it discipline of like, hey, yeah, remember here. But that's teaching. It's just reminding them. And again, that's we all need the reminders, but especially children and youth and teens, even young adults.

constant reminders. And so a lot of your teaching is just a reminder like, hey, remember, and where Rachel is a master at this is reminding our kids beforehand how what good behavior looks like. So before getting on an airplane or a train, before going into a restaurant, before going to visit friends, before going into a museum, you remind the children what good behavior is. So again, it's teaching. Teaching is your most important and most effective tool. And when you're

them they're like oh yeah cool right well I even I even make it kind of a

a funny little game with the younger kids. We'll be going to someone's house for dinner or we'll be going whatever like on a plane. And so I'll say, okay, we're going to go do this. Are you going to scream and yell and stand on the table? No. Are you going to sit quietly and say please and thank you? Yes. Are you going to... And I go back and forth between like what bad behavior looks like and what good behavior looks like. And they'll... And they think it's funny because they're like, no, I'm not going to do that. Of course not. Of course I wouldn't do that. You know? And then yes, that's what I'm going to do. So they're reminded...

Rachel Denning (01:00:21.487)
Yeah, that's what it looks like. And then... And give them specifics so they can see it, otherwise it's arbitrary. And we think children just... I remember when I studied this in brain development, they cannot get abstract ideas. We're like, hey, you're going to be good behavior, right? And no bad behavior. What does that mean? And like, yep. And then...

Right. You have to give concrete examples of what that looks like. What does good behavior look like? And what does bad behavior look like? And so then it's, then it also, when I do that beforehand, then it's so easy when we're there and say they do something that's, you know, pushing the boundary or whatever. And again, they're not, it's not on purpose, but then it's an easy reminder of like, hey, remember good manners. That's not good manners. And then you can then give them the example. This would be good manners if you do this. And so you're showing them,

very clearly, this is what it looks like, this is what it does not look like. There's another thing I want to address as well, so sometimes there are still...

situations that arise where you have to be firm. You've got to put that boundary in line, right? So you can do all this preventative stuff and you can, you know, have the connection and the attention, all that, but then there will still arise situations where you have to have this firm boundary. And where I can see parents making mistakes with this, I know I've done it too, is because we have a good relationship with them, we tend to, well, or sometimes even when we don't, we tend to want to be

We want to be the nice parent. We don't want to be mean. And I think sometimes we have that definition. Like if I'm a good parent, some people think that means I'm not going to be mean to my kids, right? And that can get tough because...

Rachel Denning (01:02:06.125)
being firm sometimes requires you to quote unquote be mean. You don't have to necessarily be mean, but you have to be firm in a way to the child can come across as mean. And they'll even say that sometimes like, why are you being mean? Because you won't let me do this thing. And you're like, I'm not being mean. This is the boundary. This is the expectation. One of the places for us where this comes up is like device usage. Device usage can be so tough for families to navigate.

And you have to have those very clear rules and expectations. But kids are going to push it. They're going to want to play the games longer. They're going to want to be on there more. And if you don't have clear rules and expectations and systems in place to...

structure all of that, you know, like for systems for us means we have the screen time passwords on there, so I, you know, give the password and it gives them 15 minutes or it gives them an hour and then it shuts off. And time limits and priorities. Right. Again, because a child doesn't know, they're just figuring out what works.

they're going to be operating in self -sabotage a lot. Especially when they're small. So are adults though. They don't know. Like they want to eat junk food and lots of it. You know, adults are just too. They want fast food. They want junk food. They want to stay up late. They would rather just binge watch movies into the night and then sleep in and then get up and have some donuts and soda and like it's just perpetual self -sabotage. And so many of you adults are doing this, but then kids are doing it.

they don't know. They're like, whoa, that sugar hit was amazing. I want tons of that. And like, well, I get to watch this movie or play this video. Yeah, I want tons of that. Like, I don't want to go to bed either. I want to do this. And so just without knowing consequences and not understanding consequences and cause and effect.

Rachel Denning (01:03:54.029)
They're just wanting more and more and more like whatever like is sensational. And that is the recipe for self -semitism. Right. Exactly. And horrible behavior. And so you have to be the one to put those boundaries in place and saying, no, you're not going to eat 27 cookies. No, you're not going to stay up till midnight on Netflix. You know, you've got to put those boundaries in place. And sometimes that requires you to be firm, quote unquote mean to be like, no, this is the boundary. This is where the line, you know, don't cross this line.

And that may require, you know, removing privileges. And we did talk about it in our last episode actually, of like, sometimes you have to remove privileges from your children so they understand that this is a hard line. Because one of the problems we run into is,

we see all the time with parents and misbehaving kids is that there are no privileges that are removed. The kid gets to act any way they want and still get all the privileges. So what motivation do they have to behave or to do the things they're supposed to do or to change their behavior because they get everything they want.

Anyway, why would they? And to cognitively understand that something is actually a privilege. It's a privilege if it can be taken away. It's not a right. Exactly. But if it never gets taken away, the kid's like, shoot, that's a right. It's just a right. They just become entitled. Exactly. And so if your child gets... I'm sorry, I want to say this. I can behave like a monster and I still get all the things I like and want. Yeah. So why would I not behave like a monster? Such a jacked reality. So if they get everything they want, they get device access, they get movies, they get...

food, they get internet, they get everything, why would they change anything that they're doing? Because it seems, in their mind, it's working. The way I'm behaving is getting me the things I want, I'm gonna keep behaving this way. And I see this especially, well, I mean, you know, with younger kids, if that's not put in place, and that can carry over into older kids, and then definitely with, it happens again with 12 year olds, where if they get everything they want,

Rachel Denning (01:06:01.453)
Why would they change their behavior in any way? They don't need to. So you have to use, and this can be a hard line, it can be delicate because it's not manipulation, it's leverage. Because they're privileges and not rights, they have a right to food and water and shelter and clothing. That's a right. They don't have the right to internet and devices and video games and everything else, fill in the blank.

treats that you know in my mind that counts as a privilege to have a treat you can I'll feed you so you're nourished but you don't get special treats you don't get gelato that's something you earn you have to earn your privileges and you earn your privileges by behaving in the world which your world is your family

in a way that makes people want to interact with you and to cooperate with you and to provide you privileges. So if my child is super annoying and pushing all the boundaries and rules and not following to, not living up to the expectations, they lose privileges. Especially when it's like the ultimate offense to be rude or disrespectful to the person who is providing your life. Right, it's biting the hand that feeds you. Yeah, that's the ultimate...

It's an insult. Betrayal and insult. Like, oh, you provide everything for me. I'm just going to treat you like crap. But if you as the parent take that, if you're just like, oh, and you don't stand up for yourself because you still are an individual and this is how your child learns how to behave in the world like we started this podcast with, they have to learn how to behave in the world. And if you never say, I'm a person and you can't treat me like that, and if you do, I'm not going to provide you with privileges, if you never hold that line,

because you're afraid of being mean or whatever it is, you're doing a disservice to your child. They're not learning that this is how the world works. Because I can't treat my boss like crap or my neighbor like crap or anyone and then expect that they're gonna give me stuff or provide reciprocal. Still be nice and friendly to me and help me out. It's not gonna happen. So it has to be real world and if your children aren't respecting...

Rachel Denning (01:08:11.981)
the expectations, the boundaries, whatever, it is your duty and responsibility to remove their privileges. And you, I want to emphasize this again, you don't have to do it in anger or... By yelling?

You don't have to do it in anger. You don't have to rant and rave and act like a barbarian because what you're doing is modeling how to behave when you're upset. It's very matter of fact and you'll have to explain it to your child especially if this is new to them. You have to explain it to them. This is how the world works. I pay for these things. I provide them.

and these are how they are earned and if you're not willing to earn them I'm not providing them anymore. It's that simple. Now they always have the option of going out and getting it themselves and then that's a whole nother problem but if...

you are the one providing it and this is why it ideally needs to start young. I mean if this is a problem with your teenager, it's a whole other issue. You'll have to apologize to them and say, hey, we've been doing this wrong. We've been providing everything for you without...

you understanding that all these things are privileges that need to be earned and they're earned through for you kind of carrying your own weight and we sincerely apologize for not teaching you this appropriately because now it feels like some weird manipulation we're starting and it's like it's not manipulative it's teaching you how things work teaching you how things operate so make sure though because this can totally backfire well and there your child is going to not be happy about it.

Rachel Denning (01:09:48.079)
They'll be upset. Right. They won't like it and that's the point. Because they should not like, if they misbehave and there's a related consequence, that's what I was going to emphasize there, it has to be related. Like if they do one thing and you take away something completely unrelated, that feels really bizarre and manipulative and that's jacked and you're just reactive. It's just like, hey, that, you know, that it's not okay to do that.

and you were using this item, this was the cause. Well, for example, one thing we do is that if our children want to use specifically their iPad for, well first of all we teach them it's our iPad and they're using it. And it's a tool, not a toy. Right, but if they want to use it for listening to an audiobook or watching a movie on movie night or playing a math game or whatever other thing.

The only way they can do that is if they earn use of it for those things by doing their studies, which is why we bought the iPads. They have iPads to use because we're traveling and they need to use them for their education. So if they do their education, that's how they earn the use of the device for other things. But if they don't do it, they don't get to use the device. And so the device is taken from them and they can't use it anyways because I have to do the password and everything.

for them to even access it but they don't get to use it for those things if they don't earn it through those actions. That's a directly related privilege.

So overall, we as parents, all of us have to learn how to behave and teach with tact and diplomacy to gain a bigger, broader understanding of what, especially society, this specific episode is really about interacting in society.

Rachel Denning (01:11:59.693)
And we have to understand people and we have to know where we stand, what our values are and what really matters and what societal conditioning we're going to dismiss and what societal expectations and standards we're going to honor and respect. And then with total diplomacy and tact and respect.

But also an emotional mastery in ourselves. Right, but also not being afraid to.

disrupt things because sometimes we avoid, you know, we avoid taking away the device because our child's going to get upset and then we have to deal with that. And sometimes that's why we have the problems we do is because we are afraid or we're avoiding this conflict. Yes, yes, yes. We're so on, we see this all the time. Parents are afraid of their kids. Right. And that's because they've never set up a firm boundary. The kid goes, if your child knows like, I can never cross that line. If you have a line they can never cross and they know it, then they won't, they won't go crazy.

and you don't have to be afraid of them because they know like I can't cross that line. But if if every time they you say there's line and they push it and then you back away they're like there's no line that line moves every time. It's so inconsistent I don't know where the line is. Right. Well I also wanted to say something though about the emotional mastery because emotional mastery doesn't mean you don't feel emotion and I think sometimes people equate it with that like oh I have emotional mastery which means I feel nothing.

And it's not that because I found it for me at least, especially as a mother, I think it's been effective for me to share my emotions with my children appropriately. So if they do something that I feel angry about or I feel annoyed about, like I tell them that now I don't yell and scream and like freak out. I just say, I feel annoyed when you do that or that that's annoying to me or that I'm starting to feel angry about that or it's hurtful. And it's amazing how that's actually powerful because they need to.

Rachel Denning (01:14:02.607)
to know that. They need to know that something they're doing is actually causing an emotional response in someone else. And you can do it by telling them instead of like getting upset or getting angry at them, you're verbalizing it, you're articulating it instead of acting it out. And that's been very powerful I've found. Because your kids want to know or they need to know that their behavior is affecting other people. Yeah, can affect others. And again, that circles back to emotional maturity and emotional development.

development and emotional mastery because if as a mother for example or as a parent we get all kinds of bent out of shape or upset or whatever about over silly things or crazy things or like neurotic things and so then I'm like I hear what you say and I'm like oh I'm gonna start telling my kids how it makes me feel but it's not healthy it's not like it's genuinely neurotic or even psychotic.

then this is where that backfires and it doesn't work. Because then your kid's like, wait a minute, if I do this, then it makes people feel like, no, it does just... It definitely cannot be done in manipulation. Like, don't do that because that makes me angry. Oh, don't do that. It's like Mrs. Bennett or something. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's just a mess.

And it has to be, and we can't even use the word make because then you're sending the wrong message that you're a victim to other people's actions. Like nobody can make you feel anything. Even your children, your children cannot make you feel anything. You are 100 % responsible for your feelings. Right. You're feeling it because of the story you're telling yourself about how you're interpreting those actions. And so you could say like, oh, I don't like when you do that. And this is why. I feel like.

this and again this is it's a delicate right it has to be balanced you can't go around like teaching your kids that they're were all victims other people's actions because that's not true either but then they also need to know that their actions have effects and consequences and not just on them so anyways love this stuff there's so we could go on around there so much here but thanks thanks for listening thanks for caring thanks for teaching and leading and striving to be good parents

Rachel Denning (01:16:19.949)
and I don't know that we can emphasize enough.

that if we just allow our kids to kind of do whatever, we're actually doing them a gigantic disservice. And I think it's worth emphasizing again, it takes a tremendous amount of courage to correct and teach your children and call them out. And sometimes you might even notice it in your kids, but you don't want to say anything because you're like, I don't want to hurt their feelings, right? I don't want to, you know, I'm afraid of the reaction. I'm afraid of what might happen. And so -.

you're afraid that they're going to behave in a way that is disruptive or especially if you're out in public, you know, and you're like, oh, I'm not going to correct that behavior because they're going to freak out or they're going to get upset. But ultimately, you are doing them a disservice because you're not when the opportunity arises, you're not taking advantage of that opportunity to teach them because ultimately that's what you are doing is teaching them. And if you're out in public, I found to be most helpful for us is

you remove the child and that helps them learn that this is a big deal. If I don't behave in an appropriate way here, I'm going to be removed to someplace where I am disciplined and

mom and dad get firm with me about this is how you're supposed to behave. Yeah, and I don't get removed to a playground. No. I don't get removed to something better than where we were. Exactly. We're in a nice restaurant, I had to be quiet, and now I get removed to like the junk food place. We go around the corner and I get ice cream. Like this is the best. That doesn't work. Exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to misbehave every time we're in a nice restaurant. And I know we need to end, but I want to give one another example because this is something we've done that's worked great.

Rachel Denning (01:18:03.533)
is that if the child's not behaving and we're in, say we're in a restaurant or we're in a public place or whatever, one of us removes that child and takes them to a place where they have restricted.

opportunities and sometimes that's included just holding them. We're like, nope, you're just going to sit on our lap and do nothing. If you want to be free, if you want to be able to engage with people, these are the expected behaviors. You need to act like this. You need to do this, not do these things. And if you agree to that, we will go back to the restaurant or the place. And if you do that, then they're like, oh, okay, if I want freedom, I need to behave more appropriately. Otherwise,

I go to a place where I get restrained or restricted in my actions and behavior and I don't want that so I'm going to choose this other thing. And again, there's so many examples we've seen over the years of taking this too far to one way or the other.

And then of course allowing anything and just saying, well, they're kids. And then they allow any kind of crazy behavior. That's not appropriate. That's not serving your kids. Well, because even as a kid, they need to learn that there's a time and place for certain behaviors. You can be like a kid all you want on the playground. But if you're in a nice restaurant, it's not a playground. But then the other side of it, I don't know if you remember this, when you were first married, we met this family and their little kids sat perfectly still like statues in church.

And at first I was like, wow, that is amazing. I want my kids to be like that.

Rachel Denning (01:19:43.789)
Now I realized that there was - Well, even soon after, we learned the emotional and relationship cost that required. The train wreck on that was horrible because the only way you can get little children to - they were behaving like grown adults and to get a child to behave like an adult is unrealistic and the only way to do that is - Is with - Often fear. With severe consequences that remove the child from being a child.

And at first it looked so admirable and so, wow, they must be great parents. And now I'm like, oh my gosh, those poor kids, those poor, poor kids. And yeah, we learned later on that there was major emotional costs for all of that and major consequences. So it's not that either. And so it's allowing the child to be the child, but not be annoying. And I circle back again to the question of like, if you don't teach and correct and discipline, who will?

Okay.

And sometimes the person or situation that does do the correcting will be severe and there will be a lot of suffering because of it. Or sometimes it'll never be addressed. The child will never learn what's appropriate. We could go on and on because there's so many examples of where kids have come on trips or camps or backhanging expeditions or international trips with me. And these are kids 16, 17, 18, 19, into their 20s. And I can tell they've never, their parents have

I never taught them what's appropriate and what's not. And I used to be just like, you know, a little tactful teaching here and there. Now I'm like, hey man, let me pull you aside here. That is totally inappropriate. I'm gonna hold up a mirror here for you so that you know that like what you're doing is not okay at all. It's not respectful, it's not right, it's not mature, it's not developed. Like, you don't wanna be like that. And I'll even be like, look, your parents should've taught you this, but they didn't.

Rachel Denning (01:21:41.613)
And it's down to just the simplest things, anywhere from proper hygiene, because poor hygiene is extremely annoying. Like that's just one simple element. Like you don't even know how to take care of yourself, to any kind of behavior, whatever. So again, your parents, it is our responsibility and obligation to teach our children how to behave well and to not be annoying.

you have. Love you guys. Reach out for it.

Rachel Denning (01:22:23.405)
you