Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:10.414)
We've been asked several times over the years by coaching clients and others regarding masturbation. Specifically, they want to know how to approach masturbation in general with their children or teens and in their marriage. Is it normal for teens to masturbate? What are the side effects or outcomes? And what about in marriage? Is masturbation okay or normal, especially if your sex drives don't match up? These are the type of questions we answer and address in this episode that's intended to

to help you navigate masturbation and the sex drive before and during marriage with the healthiest psychological approaches to these topics. A correct understanding of these forces and practices will help you to better build the life of meaning, fulfillment, and purpose that you're striving to create with your families. If you enjoy this episode or any of our episodes, would you please do us a favor and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or at our website,

podcast .extraordinaryfamilylife .com. When you leave us a rating and a review, it helps to make this world a better place by getting this podcast into the ears of more parents. Parents are the molders and shapers of the future generations. We all need all the help we can get to be the best people and the best parents we can. Families with thriving parents raise thriving children who grow up to have a positive impact on their own families and communities.

which leads to better nations and a better world. So you can have an impact by taking a minute to share the podcast with someone who will benefit from it and by leaving a rating or review. And make sure to follow us on Instagram if you're not already. You can find us at WorldSchoolFamily or at greg .denny. Thank you so much for listening. We appreciate you.

Rachel Denning (02:08.558)
Hey everybody, welcome to the Extraordinary Family Life Podcast. We are your host, Greg and Rachel Benning, and today's topic is a doozy. We actually got this question, I think several weeks ago, maybe even a couple months ago, about masturbation. And about, I think it was from a mom asking about her son, is that right? Yeah, we've been asked a few times, honestly, and we have talked about it a little bit in another podcast episode that was about sneaky behavior.

stinking devices, but also we touched on masturbation, but we wanted to go in detail. And then we've had, we've both had over the years coaching clients who maybe there was an element inside the marriage. Yeah, where it was an issue or a concern or a question that there was masturbation in the marriage. Or even just a question, right? And this comes up all the time and it's becoming more and more frequent. People are like, hey, is it right? Is it wrong? Or hey, it's obviously having negative effects. How can we stop it? How can we overcome it? What's the issue here?

But then it expands out even beyond that of like where are the healthy boundaries for any kind of sexual relationships if you're single outside of marriage or before marriage and then inside of marriage. How do we get this all? How do we navigate it? Yeah, how do we navigate this? And I know there's massive amounts of opinions out there. And.

But there's also amazing - We don't like to base our lives on opinions. Exactly. So we're going after research here. So obviously I think some opinions will come out that are ours, but we really want to share research too. It's like, it's not, it's not my opinions. Like here's the research. Which is my preference. I, and that's the approach I take to our podcast in general. I'm not here just sharing my opinion. I like to share the opinions I have that I found research for.

to be backed up, to be backed up by something solid. And then I also had the amazing experience to have some just open, honest, completely trustful, authentic conversations with some college -age young adults and what they're observing and experiencing in today's environment. And it's a really interesting...

Rachel Denning (04:32.973)
You guys know this already. You know that times have shifted a lot. Well, we are in a fourth turning. That's part of it. That's part of it. And then we're just in a cycle of society and civilization that's part of it as well. That even it was brought up by Will Durant in the story of civilization. He pointed out these patterns, these sexual patterns in a society. And he was atheist. He was humanist. He was like...

So this isn't like a religious framework. It's like, look, this is just the patterns of society. And he pointed it out, multiple civilizations, like the way they go through these patterns and cycles of sexual developments. But he pointed out it was like digression. It was the opposite of evolution. Well, it evolved into like weird things. And then the collapse of society always came afterwards. So he was probably noticing.

turnings as well, right? They'd go through first, second, third, fourth turning, and the fourth turning, there was a collapse there. And he even talks about in the fourth turning, he talks about these behaviors. Which, and so I think what we're going to talk about today does fit into that in a way. In a big context, right? But we're also seeing among youth and young adults a totally different sexual environment with similarities of always, but this one's, this is unique.

And it's unique to previous generations, for sure. And there's some uniqueness, like obviously in the general population, you know, sex before marriage is a thing, of course, and even now all kinds of things like sharing partners or multiple partners, of course, you know, a lot of stuff. But then there's the other side of youth who are religious, perhaps, that are trying to be good, you know, good, quote unquote, youth.

And there's some things going on there that are different and yet similar in, I hate to use a word like twisting or weird, but from a certain perspective, definitely appear that way. Well, I get, yeah, it gets, things get easily confusing. I think we can all agree here that things get easily confused or warped. I love the word rested. W R E S T E D it's to twist or distort. So things get distorted.

Rachel Denning (06:59.053)
And so it as the, and maybe it's like when the tide comes in or goes out, whatever group you're with, your family or your church or whatever, for the most part, it just kind of moves with the tide. And we like to think, oh, I'm so much different. I'm so much better. But if we're not really conscious and deliberate, we're just moving along with the tide thinking that we might be swimming in the other direction, but we're still being carried with the tide. And I think it's very few.

can live independent of that. And so what we're seeing is even youth and young adults who are trying to live by a higher law, they're interested because the sexual environment and the whole - Perhaps trying to mean, sorry to interrupt. Go ahead. As an example, trying to live by a higher law, they're trying to maintain virginity until marriage. That's an example. But still looking for all kinds of loopholes.

so that they can participate in other sexual activities. Which, as we're going to discuss today, includes masturbation, which we're going to explain why from a psychological viewpoint that's actually unhealthy. And again, what we're going to say, we really want to base on the psychological research. And physiological. And physiological research. And whether or not that does match up with a religious approach. I mean, that's...

independent of what we're discussing. And yet it almost backs it up. It does. If you look across time, again, the more you study, the deeper you study, the broader you study, you realize, oh, there's a reason these things have been established for millennia. This isn't like a few decades ago or even a few centuries. For millennia, wise thinkers and leaders, spiritual leaders and

Otherwise, gurus, spiritual people, like they're like, hey, this works in society, this doesn't. They also saw across time and space and established these standards that have stood the test of time. And now we see why we get these little patterns. And if we don't study, if we aren't really well -educated, we just, it's so funny. You're so blind. We're so blinded. We're rolling along with these teeny little blinders thinking, oh, this is...

Rachel Denning (09:24.845)
This is it. And you're like, well, no, this has been happening since the existence of humanity. And I think that really is a part of the overall bigger picture and cause of confusion is that we're not seeing the whole painting, to use that metaphor. We're only seeing a part of it. And we're rejecting certain things because we think it's tied to.

something specific, let's use religion. We think, oh, this rule, this standard, this thing is tied to religion. And if I'm questioning religion, which is normal and healthy, then that means I'm going to throw this out. I'm going to throw out these standards because they're religious based. Well, and it's extremely, I think one of the things that's interesting to me, it's extremely short -sighted and very narrow -minded to assume or believe.

that the standards came from the church or a church or a religion. Because again, this is my point. Like you started studying way back in history and you're like, oh. Actually, the religion picked that up because of previous evolutionary and psychological development. And so yeah, it's interesting because I truly believe that questioning things is a valuable thing.

process. I think people should question things. They should question religion. But the way I like to do it is like, why would they have that as a standard? Is there any other basis for that being a think? Right? And to question it in that way. And sometimes you come around, you're like, actually, you know what? I am going to reject that. That doesn't work. I don't see where that's a real basis or there's basis for that anywhere else. But a lot of things, you know,

ironically or not so ironically actually have a lot of basis psychologically biologically physiologically sociologically I mean all these things there's there's multiple foundations for why things in certain religions are a standard now that's not true about everything in religion of course but there's a lot of

Rachel Denning (11:42.349)
What's the word? There's a lot of...

I can't even think of a word. It's just multiple witnesses in a way. It's multiple. So literally, okay, right here's a perfect example. In my mind right now, you're thinking, you might be thinking, well, you know, let's say for example, you belong to a Christian church that's relatively new. And you might think, oh, you know, my Christian church here established this. But let's say law of chastity. I call it the law of chastity. It's really like the seventh.

commandment of the Ten Commandments. Okay, so that there you go. You cross first about ten. You're talking about ten commandments and people are like that's so old -fashioned. We should just throw that out like but that's the okay. Yeah, okay. There's that other ideology, right? It's like well, that's old -fashioned. But the point here is this isn't new like having a moral standard, especially around sexuality isn't new and I guess that's I want to bring that up. So it's not even Christian. It was a law of Moses. So it's way back. So it's

That's Christian Judean. Pre -Christian. And how many? Judeo. That was 1 ,000 or more years before the birth of Christ. So there it was. They were saying don't commit adultery. And that included fornication, all those things. But then I also want to point out, I referenced Will Durant before. Total humanists, nothing to do with religion. He thought religion was a crutch for weak people. He called everyone. He's like, we are just merely trousered apes. He believed in evolution. So total distinction here.

And yet he's walking through ancient history and pointing out, I want to point out the cycle right now so you see this, he would say, you take a normal society where they had good nuclear family and good relationships and monogamous relationships. And then he said the next step was just kind of this open promiscuity and sexuality. Like they just started to allow.

Rachel Denning (13:39.661)
Yeah, well they just, oh yeah, more open sexuality and so they were just sleeping around and more affairs, more... And if you study history you see this in all kinds of societies where they all start having their... What do they call those? They all had their mistresses. They all had their mistresses and they all had, you know, they start... And then it's just open sexuality like anyone can do anything. And he says, he says, let me point out this pattern for you. I've seen it again and again and again. It starts with good relationships and it goes to open sexuality and then it goes to perverted sexuality.

weird things. And then he says, then the next step after that, and it's usually in that next generation, there's a lot of just weird sexuality, weird practices around sexuality. And then he says, then it leads to some form of bestiality, and really perverse and perverted things. And then he says, always after that, the collapse and destruction of the society. And he's pointing this pattern. I mean, zero religious base. He's not, he's not, you know, some preacher.

He doesn't believe in it. And yet here he is. I'm like, all he was doing is just pointing out patterns he saw in history. The patterns that he had observed. What happens then is we have to see the patterns across time and space. So we don't feel like it's just an isolated event, or we think it's just, oh, this is weird. This is strange. Or we think it's OK. Because you go looking back, you're like, oh. And what we're doing is we're trying to answer the big questions like, what's OK? What works? What doesn't?

What serves us, what doesn't? What serves me personally, what serves society? Not what's okay as in, you know, the preacher telling you and condemning you for doing things that are wrong, but like, what actually works with the goals, the personal goals and desires I have to be happy, to be fulfilled, to have meaning and purpose in my life? What actually works? What actually helps me to get there?

That's what we're really asking. And that's the approach we take because when you look for that, then you're able to create your own personal standards, not standards that are given to you by someone else or by a church or by a religion or whatever, but like you're able to discover for yourself what actually works, but it does help to look through history.

Rachel Denning (15:56.333)
through space and time. And through science. To see what other humans have learned because there's value to be added to that. And I think that is one of the challenges I wanted to add that, you know, in this time of history where there's a lot of confusion, there's a lot of doubt, there's a lot of question, you know, the patriarch, he is being thrown out, the religion's being thrown out, all of these things. And that has a place. Even history is being thrown out. Old fashioned ideas are being thrown out. Exactly. Which has been done before.

Right, it's not the first time that this happened. It's this phase of history that this is occurring. All of that is coming into play, I think. But what I do remember I was going to say was, you know, when you then look back in time and you realize something like the Ten Commandments, that was pre -Christianity, and they were established actually because Moses was...

being a lawgiver, he was dealing with the problems of humanity. And his society, his society was collapsing. Yeah, he was dealing with the challenges of his society and was trying to solve all their problems and essentially was like, oh, wow, ha, here are 10 rules that would help us. Yes, exactly. Manage this community better. Like it comes from experience, not just some arbitrary made up thing. It's.

because of my experience working with you, here are things that would help us. And so we really went off on this tangent here, talking about religion and command. It's so important to establish this context and the framework to say, and I want to argue this boldly, I want to argue this. You might be thinking, yeah, but everyone has different goals and dreams. And so what works for one won't work for another.

And it's not really about the society. It's about the individual and their unique experience. But across the board, since we're all human beings, there are some common denominators. And having a life of meaning and purpose and fulfillment and meeting those fundamental human needs that we all have for, let's say, love and connection, for example.

Rachel Denning (18:15.917)
There's the six human needs. Yes, exactly. Significance. And certainty, uncertainty, and then growth and contribution. So let's just take those. If that were merely the basis, then what we're going to talk about today, when it gets in the context of sexuality and masturbation and all this stuff, you fit into that with every stinking human being. Just say, does this work? Does this support those fundamental needs for real fulfillment and happiness in life? Or does it sabotage it? Yeah. And.

What's what's being made just blatantly obvious from experience and research as these things are actually a massive saboteur They are they are sabotaging success. So yeah, let's dive into the reality I want to emphasize something there because I think that's a good point when you're talking about Oh every humans different we all have different desires and whatever that's true because even if you look at the six human needs

We all have differing amounts of those needs. For like you, you have a more of a need for uncertainty than I do. I have more of a need for certainty. So that's where we're different. For significance, you - And yet, I still need the certainty. And I still need uncertainty as well. Right, exactly. So we both need both of those things, but in different amounts. Significance, getting a sense of significance. We both get it in different ways, right?

And so if you go through each of those things, there's a scale there of how we're different, but underlying that, there are foundational principles like getting uncertainty, there are foundational principles for doing that or having certainty, there's principles that govern that. And so that's kind of what we're looking at. Although yes, we are all different, there are underlying principles that help us to fulfill those six human needs. Yes.

And I want to point out, here's what's interesting. We all, to have our just fundamental human needs met, and most of us are doing this unconsciously. We aren't even aware that it's a specific need we're trying to meet. So it starts happening, but we all look for vehicles. And we try to get a vehicle to meet the need, but what's fascinating to me, as you observe humanity, is people will pick vehicles that totally sabotage their own efforts and the things they really want and need.

Rachel Denning (20:40.557)
and often create the opposite effect. And so, for example, in seeking the need to have significance, to feel like you matter and that you belong and like that you... Contribute. No, no, I was just like the sense of, the sense of like, I'm important, I'm special, I'm special, there it is. Sometimes in to feel significance...

I'm observing a lot of people will go into all kinds of weird sexual things and just whatever. And it's actually destroying and deteriorating the love and connection they're looking for. So this vehicle for significance ruins the love and connection. They also do it with a sense of uncertainty. This is one of the reasons people will commit adultery.

is because their own marriage becomes so boring and so dull. And so certain. Yeah, they have so much certainty that they want some adventure, excitement. And some risk and excitement and passion and love and, oh, it's only responsibilities. And the marriage becomes so transactional. We're only talking about the thing you become roommates. So they think, oh, this other relationship is just.

dreamy and no responsibility and oh it's bliss and joy and wonder and everything's great. I just finished the book Madame Bovary which is a great classic and she just does that again and again and again and every time after a while it's like no it's boring now the affair is problematic and drama and like and and and poor decision making and blinding which we're going to talk about today these decisions make you blind literally make you

stupid blind. And so it causes more and more problems. Yeah, so that's, I mean, I think that's really a good place to start with this because ultimately we're going to be going through how masturbation before marriage and in marriage is actually trying to fulfill one of these human needs, but ends up sacrificing or sabotaging the other human needs. Absolutely. Okay.

Rachel Denning (23:01.261)
So let's start with kind of a foundational philosophy. The sex drive. Well, basically we're starting by, if they haven't already guessed, saying, yeah, we don't think, not just we don't think, this isn't our opinion. The research we have done does not lead us to believe that masturbation is overall a beneficial practice.

And we're going to explain how we can say that so strongly. It does not add value to your life before marriage or in marriage. Have you ever wished that you could have someone to talk about difficult subjects like this? Masturbation, sex, in marriage, before marriage, with your kids? Well, so have we.

And in fact, that is one of the reasons why we created our Extraordinary Family Life formula. So we had a place where we could gather together with like -minded parents to be able to discuss topics like this, to be able to ask questions and answer them, and to have this mutual community of intentional people who are trying to create Extraordinary Family Lives. It's a place to go to get answers.

from people with experience that's way better than asking questions on Facebook. I see this all the time and it kills me. Parents who are struggling and are searching for answers with their teens or their children and the place they go is on Facebook to ask questions to people who may or may not have good advice. Well, we've got something way better than that and it's called the Extraordinary Family Life Formula and it's live and you get to meet with Greg and me and other amazing parents.

We discuss all types of topics, things like how to stop yelling at your kids and the real reason your kids won't do it, you say, and how to talk about sex and have difficult conversations with your spouse. All of these things are topics that we cover in hour long workshops that are part of the formula. So when you join the formula, you get access to all of these past records. Plus you get to meet live with Greg and me every single month. It's super valuable. It's very powerful.

Rachel Denning (25:18.989)
You get to ask us questions directly. So it's like listening to our podcast, but you actually get to talk to us and you get to say, well, what about this? And what about that? And we have these similar type discussions, but we also get to have your feedback and we get to have your specific questions. So it's something that's very powerful and very useful and we have a great community in there. So if you want to learn more about joining the formula, then make sure to click the link in the show notes and it will take you to a page that will tell you more about it.

Now back to the episode. Because that is a very bold statement, honestly. And I know personally, although I've not been a masturbator per se, I've applying to other people. I've wondered, I don't know, maybe it's fine for some people. Maybe that's okay. I haven't always known if it's quote unquote good or bad. You know what I'm saying? I've questioned, I've wondered. But over time, and I would say definitely the last...

years I've thought yeah I I just don't see that it's a valuable thing it's not valuable for youth and it's not valuable in marriage now just to be clear in our marriage masturbation is essentially like cheating and we're gonna talk more about that and why it's like that but for us if either one of us masturbated that's essentially like cheating on the other person for us you're staring at me weird what not weird just like

You're throwing down some big stuff. Oh, I am. Like, you're trying out the gates here. Yes. That in our marriage, masturbation is a form of adultery or an affair. It's a form of cheating. And let's start there, I guess. I think I might have interrupted you, but we could go here anyways. Well, no, let's back up, and we'll come back to it. Because this is all kind of built on the premise that, particularly in a man.

the sexual drive that is a part of his physiology. And I think that's important to emphasize. Well, let's emphasize what we mean by that because when we're talking about it's part of his physiology, it's in a way, and this is the best analogy I've found. It's in a way similar to the physiology that all humans have of something like feeling hunger. That's for me how I am able to understand it because I don't know that women have...

Rachel Denning (27:44.877)
the same sort of physiology. I mean, it can be that way with the sexual drive, but I think what makes the most sense to me is when I am able to understand that having a drive for sex is kind of like having a drive for food. It's not something I can control or stop. I can't stop myself from getting hungry. I can't stop my stomach from growling if I haven't eaten.

for a while. You can't just turn off your body's need for food. Yes. So you can control it in the sense you can still make choices. I can make the choices about what I'm going to eat, when I'm going to eat, how much I'm going to eat. I can control those things, but I can't control the feeling of hunger. That is, for me, how I'm able to, through study and research, to best understand a man's sexual drive. It's not necessarily...

something that's consciously controlled. Right. So it's in a man's... That's what we mean by physiologically. Yeah. So it's in, it's at a cellular level. It's a part of his physiology. It's in the body. And a lot of people are like, no, he's just perverted or he can control that. He ought to just control it. And especially if a man doesn't have a strong drive or if women don't have the drive, they have a hard time understanding this. And then that it's just...

It's you're born this way. And some, I think some are stronger than others. Right. This doesn't apply to every man or every woman. No. But I would say the majority, especially if your body is healthy, man, if you're overweight or you're unhealthy, you're eating. There are actually a lot of foods out there that just kill the natural state. And testosterone. Just kill testosterone levels. So a man who's just really healthy, optimized physically.

He's got a strong drive, sex drive. And that's built in, right? And it just starts, I don't know, even teeny little boys get erections, but really it starts up with puberty and adolescence. And so the drive starts in there, and it's a driving force. So here's the fundamental principle that we really wanna build this whole argument on. It is a driving force.

Rachel Denning (30:13.261)
It's in a way, it's a type of energy. You could say that. Absolutely. But back to the comparison with hunger. I mean, hunger is a driving force. When you are hungry, that motivates you to take certain actions. It motivates you, say we're hunter gatherers, it motivates you to go out and hunt for food. Right? And even in today's society, I mean, we...

build our lives around eating because it's a driving force. So comparatively, this sex drive is a driving force. And obviously it's been misused and manipulated. Yes, absolutely. Unbelievably throughout history. Trash bags will just go and take it by force. They'll go and rape or the warring parties would go.

conquer another tribe or city and rape the women or take them home as slaves, as concubines, whatever. I mean, so it's just been totally misused and abused. But if you have a moral compass, which we all should, and we should help our kids have these moral compasses, and we should help society, we should contribute to all these young men in society. And again, a lot of these young men are being raised in fatherless homes to the tune of, I think, 40 % of the babies born in the United States are born in fatherless homes.

That's a big deal. And so they're not getting that. Which, honestly here, we don't have the time to go into this, but in a way that's directly connected to all of these things that we're talking about. One of the reasons that women are suffering, in fact, I'm reading more and more about this all the time. I'm seeing it more places on Instagram, podcasts, everything. This whole movement that started,

decades ago for women's liberation and freedom and free sex, in the end, it ends up hurting women more. Because while we sometimes think that marriage is so confining and it's restricting and women are submission to the patriarchy or something like that, that in reality, when you study history, you realize that marriage and particularly monogamy were created in order to protect women.

Rachel Denning (32:36.333)
Because women are vulnerable. And more importantly, yes, exactly. Thank you. More importantly, the children. Not even more importantly, just as importantly. Well, okay, as importantly. Because it's the women and the children who suffer because I am...

It is the poor women in America who are the single mothers who are suffering most. And it is a direct result if you study this history that comes from this whole liberation movement. Free sex, freedom, we don't need to get married, we don't need to this. And we think that that's ennobling in some way, but it's the poorest people in society who end up suffering as a result. And they're the ones who have to...

take care of children by themselves because they live in a society where they can get pregnant and the man doesn't have to take any responsibility for that. Where if we had, here we go on this religious bent, which it's not really religious, it's psychological and so many other things. If we believe that,

women need to be protected and children need to be protected, which means sex should be protected, then we would have more commitment and we would have better relationships between men and women and between parents and children. So that's my little rant on that whole idea that in a lot of ways it's directly connected, but back to this driving force. So if you have a moral compass and a strong driving force, you earn.

the privilege to have sex. And good sex, not just merely the act of sex, which is so cheap and so pathetic. Like if you sell yourself short, and this is really the premise here, masturbation and cheap sex is the most pathetic substitute for the real thing.

Rachel Denning (34:43.821)
and you are selling yourself short. You're ripping yourself off from how good it really truly is. Right? It's just, that's a cheap subject. It's pathetic. So if you want deep love,

and this intimate, connecting, ennobling, mind -blowing, passionate sex, you have to earn it. Because any respectable woman's not just gonna hand it out like pretzels, which is a tragedy that's also happening in society. Which, again, we're not being condemning here. To be fair...

That's not their fault. And it's not the men's fault either because nobody understands this. Nobody gets it. They don't know. And it's not being taught either. One reason they don't know is they don't realize it's possible. They don't know that what you're talking about is actually a possibility because what they see is their parents fighting or their parents not enjoying sex or... Or nobody even talking about it. It never comes up. Nobody talking about it. It's so taboo. Or divorce or this or that. All these things. All the things that we actually see in society.

That's all they know. And so they're like, well, yeah, what's the point? Who cares? What's really that bad about it? What's really wrong? I just feel this urge. Why can't I just go act on it? Right. What's wrong with that? And in one way, you're like, yeah, I get that. That seems natural and normal. And sex is natural and normal. And it's a very good thing. It's a good, positive thing. This sex drive that we have is a good thing. But it has to be channeled.

This is the other thing Will Durant talked about in his book. He says, this sexual drive is this raging passion that must be channeled. Otherwise, it turns into a flood that destroys individuals, marriages, families, and society. That's a good imagery there. Just powerful. And he talks about, again, he is, I want to keep emphasizing here, he's not a religious person. And he's looking at society saying, look, this is a passion of fire that must be channeled.

Rachel Denning (36:56.717)
and directed and controlled, it must have boundaries. Well, okay, so back to this driving force, because I want to expand on this a little bit more because you might be like, oh, okay, so we shouldn't masturbate so we can have amazing sex one day. And here's the reason why. Because if we talk about sex as being a driving force, like you were talking about, you have to go and earn the right.

to have sex, amazing sex with someone, ultimately amazing intimacy with someone. With a respectable person because you're trying to be a respectable person. Right. That what it does, if you masturbate, what happens is that you actually are removing that drive. You're literally spilling out a driving force. Yeah, you're literally releasing energy that now removes your motivation to go...

earn that right and privilege, right? And from a psychological viewpoint, this is where it gets really fascinating because I've heard it before. I just heard it again in another podcast episode with Jordan Peterson and I think his name is Andrew Uberman. Very fascinating. And this was one of the things they talked about that specifically Andrew Huberman, he's some kind of doctor scientist.

And he gets a lot of questions from guys about masturbation, about porn, like, is it wrong? Is it this? Is it that? And his whole take is, well, you're basically conditioning yourself to seek dopamine hits through masturbation, as opposed to real connection with another human being. So you're taking this drive you have, right? It's there. And instead of using it to learn how to go out into the world to confront,

your fears and your fear of being rejected. To overcome your weaknesses. To overcome your weaknesses. Things that make you pathetic. To go work out, to get in better shape so that you look more attractive. To earn more money. To earn more money so a woman sees you as a potential person that can help take care of her and her offspring. To go out and learn how to communicate and use pick up lines, you know, like all these things that hold you back from going out to do that.

Rachel Denning (39:15.885)
And move beyond the facade and the act of the player and the smooth talker, because any intelligent woman is going to see past that. If you want the real thing, you've got to earn it. You have to become the real thing. You have to become the real thing. Exactly. And so if you use your sexual drive and frustration, because it is a thing, sexual frustration, if you use it...

to motivate you to do all of those things, then guess what? You become a better person and then you get to earn a relationship with another better person. But if you simply, and this was his point in the podcast, release that drive through masturbation with porn, well, that's the easy route. You don't have to do all of those uncomfortable, miserable things because you can be sexually released with your own hand. Like, why not?

Why not do that? I'll tell you why not, because it's pathetic. That's why not. And I say that.

I say that not like in this condemning way, but in a way it's like you are selling yourself so short of the real thing. You are settling and acquiescing for so much less than what is actually possible. Well, then what is less than what is your individual potential? Absolutely. Your potential is there waiting for you. And this sexual drive is one way.

that will, in fact, I would say maybe it's a major way that you're going to be driven and motivated to do that thing, to achieve that potential. But if you simply release that and waste it in meaningless...

Rachel Denning (41:04.973)
I was going to say connection, but it's not connection. It's not. It's connection with yourself. But it's a, yeah, it's a pseudo. It's false. Yeah. It's this false quote connection, but it's empty. It's frivolous. There's no commitment there. There's no responsibility. There's no accountability. There's no, there's no, there's none of the, the, uh, all of the other elements of responsibility inside a committed relationship. Right. There's none of that.

It's a video or a piece of paper and you. Yeah. It's just so funny. But okay, so the idea Napoleon Hill called this sexual transmutation. He specifically, there's a whole chapter in the book on Think and Grow Rich about using the sexual drive that men have to rise, to get better, to improve, to make the most of ourselves. And it really is, it's an energy, it's a fire. It's a fire in the pit that propels us forward to overcome our weaknesses and fears. And...

And this literally is my story. Because I was out on my own. I was shy. I was reclusive. I was broke. I was ignorant. I was insecure. I was desperate. I couldn't even talk to a girl. Right. So a lot of people don't know this about you. But when you were a teenager, you literally could not look people in the eyes and talk to them. That's how afraid and insecure I was. And you couldn't talk to girls. You were terrifying. Yep.

Now, another thing that people don't know about you, which is very interesting and we realize extremely unique, you've never masturbated. Nope. And the... So when I was out living on my own, I had open, almost unlimited access if I wanted to to drugs, alcohol, violence, and sex. And obviously pornography and masturbation. I could have grabbed that at any moment. And...

I don't share this to be like, hey, I'm better than Ann Wells. Somehow, I just saw. It's a mystery to us. At 16, I'm like, I'm not touching any of that. I'm not settling for any of that. Now, I also need to share here that I had a very intense sexual drive. Like, I wasn't like, oh, I'm not really interested in girls. Holy crap, I was interested.

Rachel Denning (43:29.453)
And I had this drive, this intense drive, which I still do, and it's amazing. But living this experience, I didn't know it at the time. Looking back, I saw it was this driving force for me to rise. Because in my intense loneliness as a young man, just feeling so isolated and wanting nothing more than an amazing marriage.

I knew I had to become a better man and I didn't use masturbation as an outlet or an escape. My outlets became reading voraciously from the best books, working out like crazy. You used to spend hours at the gym. The gym was my outlet, right? And I was putting all of my testosterone, all of my drive. All of that sexual drive into exercise. Into exercise and learning and improving myself.

And so I rose and rose and rose because I wanted to qualify for you. Well, I didn't know you at the time, but I knew I was qualifying for you because I wanted something great. Now we look back at all the research around the psychology and the physiology of it. You're just, you're wasting your energy or potential. You're literally spilling it out. Yeah.

into the toilet. And the same is true even for married men.

And we can get into that too. If it's happening in the marriage, it's a big red flag of some other problems. Well, yeah. So I think this would be a good point to touch on a couple different things because we know that one of the things going on today with youth is mutual masturbation, shared masturbation in the effort to maintain virginity, which, OK, I get that. But it's still a cheap substance. Well, and we're going to talk about that. But.

Rachel Denning (45:32.717)
And then the other thing is masturbation in marriage because there's one spouse who has a higher sex drive than the other. And so the solution that many people, and I've read this in books and things like this is seen as a valid solution is that, oh, well, the one spouse can masturbate. And while I get that, I mean, I can understand that from a logical viewpoint, ultimately, and again, we are idealists.

Like, we're gonna just be clear with that. We are idealists. Then why not me? Why not go for the best? There needs to be ideals. It's critical to have ideals in the world. And we love to live by those. Why settle for less than what's possible? Agreed. Good is not good enough when phenomenal is possible. And it is possible. Except we play the victim. Well, we're just not sexually compatible. Or one of us just wants it a lot more than the other. Well, okay.

The real answer is there's things you can do about that. Right. And so the point is in marriage, if masturbation is a thing, well, ultimately you're taking this drive, which again, it's a drive. In marriage, well, always, it's a connecting drive. Yeah. Before marriage, it's a connecting drive because it's driving you to find someone to connect with. And in marriage, it's a connecting force because it's, even if there's a spouse that wants it more, it's still driving you.

connect to your yeah your spouse now that doesn't mean you have to have sex every single time but regardless that drive still drives you to your spouse unless it gets twisted or warped and you get rejected and rejection then becomes the norm so that then masturbation has to take place as a substitute

So if you're, but here's the point. And a literal and figurative outlet. Yes. But here's part of the point that we're making that if this drive is meant to drive you to connect and from an evolutionary, biological, physiological, psychological, religious viewpoint, that is the point of it. It's driving you to connect with another person. If instead you're using masturbation, well then,

Rachel Denning (47:54.189)
It's the same principle as applying. You're not doing the hard work of overcoming whatever the obstacles are that are keeping you from actually having sex. That's the point. If there's a reason that we can't have sex, well, the answer is not for one of us to masturbate or both, because then that doesn't actually solve the problem that's standing between us. If the real reason is, there's a lot of.

There's a lot of reasons, but if ultimate, you know, we think it's, oh, well, the real reason is he wants sex more than I do. So masturbation is the answer. Well, no, not really. There's a lot of things you can talk about and discuss because there's a lot of in -between areas between no sex, well, between masturbation and sex all the time. Like there's a lot of ground in there that's mutual shared ground. There's plenty of things that can happen.

that doesn't have to be, I don't want to be with you, masturbate. You know what I mean? And in that element, like I just want to emphasize something here.

Rachel Denning (49:02.893)
My sexual attraction to you is quite literally a driving force for connection with you. I want to be with you. Yes. I want to be around you. I want to make love to you. Every day. Like, I have this, right? Which, to be clear, doesn't mean we make love every day. Unfortunately. There are... Life is hard and there are tragedies.

And I say that in jest, but I know there are a lot of marriages, even coaching clients and people I've worked with where maybe once a month they have sex. And that just breaks my heart. But from a perspective of a woman, and I'm going to just give this framework here, if you're like, ugh, stop, why? Just go masturbate. Just control it. Just deal with it.

You're saying, stop being drawn to me. Stop wanting to connect with me. Stop wanting me. You're turning away this man's drive to connect. Now I know what you're saying. You're like, you should want to connect other ways. Yeah. And he just wants me for my body. He's just using me. Like we know all of that. We've been through all of that. We get all of that. And we talk a lot about that in our other podcasts about marriage. So that's relevant. If that's a thing, go listen to those.

So we get all of that, but ultimately what you are saying is I don't want to connect with you. Go masturbate and connect with yourself. And so then all of his driving force to be closer to you, you're telling him to dump in the toilet.

That is astounding to me. Like go take your drive and just empty it out somewhere else. Go waste it. Because when you figure out how to navigate this, which is the point of being married, figuring out how to navigate these things, well then this misalignment you have of you want sex and I don't want sex becomes a way for you to connect more deeply by figuring out how to.

Rachel Denning (51:18.509)
understand each other there and and to get past that obstacle. That's where then you become even more deeply connected because you're able to solve this problem together instead of just like, well, just go masturbate. Right. And so it's part of a bigger whole that truly great sex and connection through sex has to come with a commitment to responsibility.

Yes. It has to come. Which that commitment to responsibility also comes with very clear boundaries and standards. And again, we're not talking about this in a religious perspective. This is true with anything in life. I mean, whether this is eating and being healthy and fit or exercise or reading and education, like there's standards and boundaries that you have to operate in in order to get the highest, best idealistic results. Yes. This is a similar thing.

And you're, I know we keep emphasizing this and I want to, you keep selling yourself short. In other words, anything below this ideal, and it is possible because we are experiencing it and we're not, you know, some anomaly and we know others who are experiencing it. We, sorry to interrupt, we realize it's rare. Yes. But we're not the only ones out there. Right. And it's not impossible. And it's not like some high target that's just unattainable.

Because if we can do it, you can do it. We're normal people. We really are. But no, we are. We live an extraordinary life. We do, but it's not ordinary. But it's extraordinary not because we're extra lucky. Of course, there's luck involved, and there's other things out of our control that are involved. But we're ultimately living an extraordinary life because we've been so deliberate and intentional. But we started out as very normal people. Yes. And anything you do.

outside of that though, you know, though some of it may not be inherently wrong or bad. Right. And that's not what we're saying. Anything below the ideal is selling yourself short. So that's the message I want to share with you, those of you listening. Cause you might be like, well, what's so bad about it? What's so wrong about it? And I'm saying anything short of this ideal is, it's just you settling for less.

Rachel Denning (53:47.373)
So even these people who are dating and they're doing this mutual masturbation, it's like, what's so bad about that? They think it's a step up from just self -masturbation. But then, again, you're connecting with someone that you haven't committed to, like the deep commitment to responsibility and working through the hard difficulties of a marriage to build something magical. You're just like, ah, let's just connect.

in this really special, it's supposed to be reserved for this. So let's just connect without the commitment. Connection without commitment. It's cheap. And it's an outlet, it's just a simple outlet and it's addictive. And so then you're doing the conditioning like talking about to the dopamines, you're getting all these dopamine hits and you're dumping out your drive. And so if you can get it so easily,

and so cheaply, I would say. So you start dating someone and like, and it's happening now. I mean, from talking to these college kids, it's like, it's first date stuff. You're like, dude, let's just go, let's go get crazy. And so it is, it's cheap and it's easy. And so, well, no wonder that the drive to improve and to earn it and to prepare for it and to work through the difficulties of it.

It seems so challenging. It seems like why would you do that? It's so much work. But I love what you're saying here though, because it's not that the whole point is this is inherently bad and you're a bad person and all these things. It's not about shame. It's not about being evil or wicked or whatever, all of these things. It's not about them. Ultimately, it is about this selling yourself short.

Like, yeah, there's plenty of people that live like that. There's plenty of people that do that. And they're not bad people because of that. In fact, I can emphasize with, emphasize, empathize with a lot of them. They're hurting, they're sad, they're lonely. But being the idealists we are, excuse me, we're basically saying there's a better, higher way. There's a...

Rachel Denning (56:08.973)
passionate magical way to live in the world and to have a relationship with someone that's way better than you can imagine right now. But the way to get there is the harder path. Right? It's like the Buddha. I like to bring this up because I really love this in the Dhammapada. He talks about the Buddha experienced enlightenment and then realized he needed to teach people that there are two paths.

And the one path is the easier path. It's more pleasurable, it's more enjoyable, it's more releasing, whatever. It's that path and it seems like, well, that's the path I want to take. But that's, and the Buddha was like - But you want it because it's easy and it's - And it's enjoyable. It's simple gratification. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And it is enjoyable. It is the more enjoyable path. It's the truth. It's the more enjoyable path. For a time. But like the Buddha was saying, that, let me get there, let me get there. Like the Buddha was saying,

That is the path that leads to misery. Now the other path that leads to enlightenment is the one no one wants to take because it looks harder. It's more miserable. It's denying yourself. It's actually lonelier until you get what you want. It is lonelier until you reach the point where you get the reward, but that's down the road. So who wants to take that path? Cause it looks so lonely and miserable and boring. But it...

It's the same thing here. And it's not just with this topic, it's with all of these topics, that when you choose that harder, more stringent path, that's how you get to all the things you really want. That's where they lie. Yeah. And if you choose to take the easier, more gratifying path,

always leads to remorse and regret. And sorry I keep interrupting you. From our experience working with people it definitely leads to less fulfilling relationships.

Rachel Denning (58:21.549)
And so...

you sell your, you cut yourself off from what you could have. Now, having made these decisions, you can recover, you can level up, you can raise your own personal standards, and you can still build this, you can make it happen. But if you keep going for what's cheap and easy, you keep accepting and seeking even a substitute for the best thing,

you go for something good at the sacrifice of what's best, you're gonna regret it. And of course, that whole idea always leads to mediocrity. It always leads to mediocrity. Mediocre marriage, mediocre relationships, mediocre family. Yeah, self -worth, self -confidence, all those things. It just undermines all of it. So you wanna set a personal standard of greatness.

And that means you're going to endure some difficulty and some pain and some discomfort. And some suffering. Yeah. And that will be both emotional and social and... Sexually. And sexually, which means physically. There's physical pain when you don't have an outlet from a sex drive.

Again, I distinctly remember thinking, I'm not going to do that. Well, one of us says, like, that's, whatever, that's, ooh, I'm not settling for that. I want more. And so you let it drive you, but it's also true in marriage. If you and I are not making love often, I'm not gonna settle for a cheap substitute. I'm gonna let this drive me to...

Rachel Denning (01:00:14.989)
help improve our relationship. Yeah. Which has happened. I mean, that is the story of our marriage in a way. And I think we've told it before. I don't want to go into detail here, but you know, obviously we're normal people in some ways. And we had that point in our marriage where I just was like, I'm too busy for sex. I can't do sex. It's too much. Lots of little kids. Yeah.

Lots of little kids. I've got so much going on. But because you didn't allow that to deter you and you didn't view masturbation as an option, it drove us to solving that problem and to working through it, which then made our marriage even better than we thought. We thought we had a good marriage and we did. But it's so much better now than it was because we worked through those issues. And literally in my mind, I was like, there's no other alternative. Right.

I mean, I guess I could... Be abstinent? Yeah, which that sucks. Who wants to do that? No, I don't want to do that. And of course, that's a possibility. I could... And this is going to sound crazy. I know I have the power in my mind to turn it off. I could... I really could... I could just shut down. But that's not... That's not the ideal way. Well, and I think what a lot of women don't realize is that when you...

specifically men, not just you, but when men do that, when they shut down mentally from sex, it also disconnects them from her. Because learning from you, one of the challenges is that if you're around me, if you're near me, if you're touching me, if you're cuddling me, well, that sex drive is there. And it doesn't mean we're going to have sex, but if you're not allowed to feel those feelings, if you have to shut those feelings off completely,

Well, that means you want to shut off touching me, cuddling with me, connecting. I have to. Yeah, you have to. Like for my sanity. And so if I can't, and this pattern goes on again, if I can't get sex in my marriage, which is for me and the ideal, it's the only place that any sexual thing should be happening. So not even, not even masturbation, cause that's some kind of cheating on you. Any, anything sexual, the only place.

Rachel Denning (01:02:40.109)
is with you. And if it's not there, then like I literally have to avoid it. I have to avoid you. Right. You have to avoid me. I have to stay busy, like working, working out, doing trips, whatever. I'm like, I just, I got to stay away from her because if I'm near her, I want it. And then you just shut me down and reject me again and again and again. And yes. And for the women that have a problem with that, because I know that that used to bother me or I used to have a problem with that, that's when those other podcast episodes we did are super helpful and dive into that hole.

I think it was 148, 150, and 151, something like that. But those are very helpful for that. But I really want to bring up this because I think this is a good place to connect it here because you were talking about masturbation and marriage and cheating. And I want to kind of share this in a way and tie it in also with this.

shared masturbation thing that's going on because...

in a way, like, okay, let's take it from this perspective and then I wanna share something else. Let's say that I masturbated with someone else. Well, we didn't have sex, babe. We were just masturbating together. That's just so weird, you know? Like, that's so inappropriate. That's cheating on you. I am literally cheating on you if I did that.

First of all, in our marriage, if we masturbate at all, we're cheating because we're not connecting. That's the point of the sex drive. And then if I go masturbate with someone else...

Rachel Denning (01:04:14.445)
It doesn't matter if we're having sex or not. I'm cheating on you. So that's another viewpoint of mine. I'm like, what?

Why is that okay? Why is that better than sex? If it's about connecting and I'm connecting with someone else, well, I'm still cheating on my spouse. Now, granted, people are saying, well, we're not married yet. I don't have someone else and I get that. But I want to throw this out though. For me personally, again, I'm an idealist. If I were to do that before I met you, I viewed that, I would view that for me as cheating on you. Well, that's actually where I wanted to go.

and this is where I'm going to be vulnerable because I did have sex before we were married. I lived a different life, did not participate or practice in my parents' religion, and I had sex. I changed my life and I brought in these standards, right? Because I decided, oh, I want something better. I want something different. I want this ideal. I want to be married. I want to have a family. I want a good guy.

And you realized you were settling for this? And I realized I was settling for dross. Like it was literally pathetic. So I made a major life change, switched everything.

and then held higher standards for myself. And eventually that's what led me to meeting you. Now what is interesting is as we've gone through this process, one of the things that you've talked about, because that was a challenge for you, you had waited, you didn't even masturbate.

Rachel Denning (01:05:53.357)
And so one of the things that you said that was so difficult is that you felt like I had cheated on you even though we didn't know each other. Like I didn't know you at the time, but that was one of the things that you felt, which I find very fascinating, you know, and I think relevant, that you felt you had been cheated on even though we didn't even know each other. Because we're striving for this ideal.

and I had violated that ideal. Now, of course, there's forgiveness in this and there's all of these things. It's not like you've held this grudge against me, but I just really think that that's interesting and relevant to this whole idea because if I went to masturbate with someone else, that would be cheating on you. And in a way, this is another way of viewing it. Now, it's the idealistic way, of course, but if you're connecting with someone else, but it's not a real connection, as in you're not...

Committed to them then in a Metaphysical way you are cheating on your potential your own potential and on your future spouse Wow, that's so good You're cheating on your potential Yeah, that's huge As I'm listening you're talking about this realizing sexual acts do things

very unique things to the human body. Psychologically. Well, physiologically. Yes. It lights up the brain like insane amounts of dopamines and the biochemistry. I mean, it's a huge experience.

That's not insignificant. No. And if you're having these spike experiences outside of marriage with whoever met this girl, boom. To be clear, we're not just saying outside of marriage, because we do believe people have committed long -term lasting relationships that aren't married. They're not married. OK. But it's committed. Outside of committed relationships. Outside of commitment. OK. Outside of commitment.

Rachel Denning (01:08:07.085)
Those can't, that was a double negative, can't not have an effect. Right. And get into your memory bank, your psychology, and your physiology. Remembered emotion, essentially. There's a record kept there in biochemistry and neurology, in neuro connections. And okay, and especially in the case of something like masturbation.

you are creating neurological highways. You're creating neuro connections to your hand. And some picture or video of somebody. It's insane. But you're creating a memory path inside your makeup. Which what happens then is that it becomes easier and easier and easier for you to...

get that dopamine hit through that neural pathway as opposed to the more challenging way of having to overcome the hard work of connecting with the person. So let's play this out hypothetically. Somebody gets to masturbating early on and then does get into a good marriage and there's any kind of hiccup inside the marriage. Any kind of difficulty that otherwise you'd work through the strain and struggle to get to a next level.

You just say, well, fine. You know what? You make me mad. I'm frustrated with you. I'm irritated by you. You're being annoying. You're withholding. You know, what I see all the time is like, my poor behavior causes you to withhold, right? I see this and I'm just, I'm seeing the man's behavior causes his wife to react and he's sitting there saying she doesn't give me sex. And so then if you have this neurological pathway, it's always been an easy outlet. You're just like, well, fine. I'm just going to go do that. Right.

Instead of, no, I'm not doing that. I'm going to stay in this and I'm going to fix what I need to fix in me. And I'm going to help you get to where you need to get to so that we can get to the next level of awesome. So we can connect intimately because that is the point of this drive. It's to drive us to connect. Ooh. And to be really transparent, we make love three to five times a week.

Rachel Denning (01:10:27.917)
and we make it a priority in our life. And yes, we have seven children and multiple businesses and huge adventures, but we make it a priority. And because it is a priority, it's the linchpin of marriage. Yeah, that is actually, I'm glad you brought that up because that was another point I wanted to make. When we're talking about this driving force.

We've done multiple videos and podcasts and coaching sessions on sex being the lunchman because when you begin to see things the way we see things through experience primarily, and then through the supporting research and all of that, you realize that sex is the center.

It's the only thing that makes our marriage different than other relationships, right? We share sex together. That's it. It makes us unique. And then everything else radiates out from that. So if the sex is good and healthy and wholesome and passionate and all that, then so is our marriage and so is our parenting and so is our life and so is our business and so is everything else. Everything radiates out from that. And so it makes...

our life better, our family better, our the world better, everything we do is better because of that central focus point. So if you waste that, you waste that energy, you waste that power through casual, meaningless, insignificant experiences or... Sex or masturbation? Yeah. Then you just cheapen.

you're cheapening and you're weakening the hub, the linchpin of your entire wheel of life. Really, that's what you're doing. And so it's, I mean, it's really difficult for me to fully articulate this because, and in some ways it seems so silly or cliche or inaccurate to say, well, it's sex that makes the world go round. But in a lot of ways it is. It is.

Rachel Denning (01:12:42.541)
And it's like this ultimate primal driving force, which I believe in the creation and from the creation it's there. Well, and evolutionarily as well, because without that driving force the species doesn't reproduce. Right? But it also includes all of these rules because women are the ones that are obviously are responsible for the reproduction. You know.

the birthing part of it, and they have to make rules and requirements. And that's where marriage came from, to protect them and to protect their children and all of these things. And if that's removed or lessened or cheapened, then it's ultimately the family that suffers, the children, the women, they suffer. Not to mention the men, of course, because they think that getting free sex or free...

Access without commitment is a good thing. It's really not because psychologically, all humans, but men too, in committed relationships are healthier and happier. They live longer. They have more meaning and purpose in their life. And that seems counterintuitive. You're like, why wouldn't I take what I can get cheaply and easily? Like, man, that's the path of least resistance. I can go around and just have sex with whoever and then go on with my life. That's the best. But it's not. Well, it goes back to the Buddha and the two paths.

And well, and what is it that ultimately we deeply value? We value most the things that are rare and that are hard won. Yeah. The things that have the highest price. And this one has a high price and even higher price when we set a high price tag on it with really high boundaries and really high standards. And so.

Each of us, you as a woman and me as a man, setting our standards very, very high. And making, particularly in our sexual relationship, having those set extremely high makes it beautiful and wonderful and priceless. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (01:15:00.397)
There's one other thing I want to touch on because I think it's very important. After I made changes to my life, my lifestyle, because I would say mentally I checked out of my parents religion at like 16. Physically I left probably when I was 18 when I could actually move out. And then honestly it was probably only a year after that that I was able to think. I feel like getting out on my own.

gave me the chance to really think about what I truly wanted. I wasn't in reaction mode anymore, you know, of rebellion. And it's when I really started to think about what I wanted that I realized I wanted things that were meaningful. You know, I was living the free life. I was doing whatever I wanted. But I wanted meaning. I wanted connection. I wanted children, I realized, you know, which was something I'd never thought about before. And...

I recognized that a place to find that, to find what I wanted was back in my church, the church I'd grown up with. And I went back to that. Um, but it was interesting because when I changed my way of living and I changed my standards, even then going back to church, of course, I thought at first, Oh, there'll be tons of great guys. It'll be all. And I realized that that wasn't the case. Like there was plenty of losers, right? At church. There's plenty of losers that.

are good guys, but still not what I was looking for. And so one of the things that happened was even though I now had this standard of like, you know, I'm not gonna kiss, I'm not doing heavy making out, I did date this guy and we kissed and we were, you know, cuddle -lilling, that type of thing. And then I ended up getting engaged to him. Now, luckily, I attribute a lot of that to luck, that ended.

and I was able to get out of that relationship.

Rachel Denning (01:17:03.565)
and then I met you. And this is kind of a funny part of our story that we like to tell, but it relates here that when we first started dating, I wouldn't hold your hand, I wouldn't kiss you, I wouldn't cuddle with you, like, I just wouldn't let that happen. And the reason why - And physical touch is my love language. Yeah, physical touch is your love language. And I wouldn't let any of that happen. And here's the reason why, this is the point I'm getting to, is because I had recognized, even though I had given up the other stuff,

just any physical intimacy at all interfered with my decision -making skills. And so I was led into a relationship that was potentially disastrous. Not potentially, it would have been a nightmare. That's why I said potentially disastrous, because it didn't happen. It would have been really bad. And the reason why my judgment was off was because of the physical intimacy. Now this is very...

a very powerful lesson that I wish everyone listening, especially if you're not married, will get. That physical intimacy, even a little bit, can interfere with your decision -making skills on whether or not the person you're dating is a good choice for you, a good potential mate. So what I did with the next go -around,

I decided first, meaning I went through, I examined you, which I did. I analyzed you, I examined you, and I decided first that I could marry you. And I want to be clear here, it's not like you decide, oh, I'm going to marry that person, now I can kiss them. I decided you were a person I could marry before I allowed any physical intimacy at all. And that meant hand holding and kissing and things.

And for us, it was unique. Like I did know I was going to marry you and so before we had ever kissed. But the point is I made the decision first. I knew first before I got physical. And we didn't get even very physical. We both committed to being extremely limited before we got married. That doesn't mean we didn't want to get physical. Oh, we want to. And I want to drive this point home here that...

Rachel Denning (01:19:26.445)
physical intimacy, sexual behaviors, and connection. But just the sexual arousal itself. Is blinding. It is blinding. It is blinding. And I heard that again this weekend from this sad story of a failed marriage and that same exact story came out. It was like, yes, it was blinding. The intense physical intimacy we had pre -marriage blinded me to the red flags that were there. Yes.

and to clear decision making. And so in a very, very real way, those sexual connections are blinding. As is, I would say, masturbation. Masturbation is blinding. Agreed. It muddles your clarity and your vision of who you are and where you're going and how to approach life. I don't know how to explain this, but sexual things from masturbation to sexual relationships, they are blinding.

Well, and this definitely would apply to the mutual masturbation and all the other things that we've heard about, about penetrating without thrusting is not sex and anal sex and oral sex and all of those things. All of that. As though that's not sex, right? It is. Because again, if I was to do any of those things with anyone else, that's cheating on you. So it is sex. But any of those acts arouse

or create biological, physiological changes in your body, which do interfere with your ability to think clearly about the person you're trying to make a decision about. Like whether or not you could be with them for the rest of your life. Because you're not evaluating that, you're thinking, oh man, that feeling was amazing. Let's get back together and have that feeling. Right. And so that's what the decision - We're sitting here disagreeing and it's really annoying and -

like big important questions we don't see eye to eye, let's just go make out. And let's go make out again. In fact, let's not talk, let's just keep making out, because that feels good. Because that feels great. Talking to you, that's infuriating, because wow, we don't connect, but let's just go make out. You can't build a marriage on that. Exactly. And you can't make a clear decision about that when you're intertwined physically. And I guess, it's getting clearer and clearer to me of why there's actually a f***ing

Rachel Denning (01:21:51.277)
physiological process in the brain that's true there when you have this huge, I'll call it a cascade of dopamines, whenever you're altering your biochemistry, it activates different parts of the brain. That's why, like, and the example is when you go into fight or flight mode, the prefrontal cortex shuts down. You stop making decisions, it's just fight back or run. And that's how the brain works.

one section gets lit up massively, really intense, the other shuts down. It kind of shuts down other parts of the brain. So what's happening here is you're getting this huge sexual effect in the brain and clear thinking out the door. Right. Anyone who has sex knows that's the case. Like, when you're aroused, man,

It's gone. All thinking is out. And that's what's happening. I don't understand the physiology behind it, but that's what's happening. Yeah. So in some ways, and again, it's not that we're like total prudes or whatever, like don't touch or kiss or do anything before you're married. That's not exactly what we're saying. But we are saying that if you're shooting for an ideal, you need to be very careful and you need to be very selective because you need to know from a...

chemistry viewpoint, everything that's happening and how it is affecting your brain and it's affecting your decision making. And if you want to go for the highest and the best, then you have to decide that beforehand. Then you have to set standards and boundaries that are in alignment with that. Exactly. Congruent with what you want. Exactly. If you're just okay with cheap substitutes and mediocre relationships, by all means, carry on.

But if you want something great, you have to practice greatness. Yeah, it reminds me of this meme or whatever I follow. I follow this guy on Instagram who I think might have got banned because I can't find him again. But anyways, he puts all these posts out there and one of them was he's a single guy. He's not religious that I know of. His whole platform is based on carnivore diet, but he constantly puts out

Rachel Denning (01:24:08.205)
included with all of his stuff about eating posts about casual sex and he's just like if you're having casual sex and I would include all of these ways of doing it as casual sex because it's essentially casual intimacy that You're just really good at manipulating people and yourself That if you want real true Deep intimacy you're gonna you're not gonna do that because you're gonna wait for someone that you can actually commit to to get intimate with

is so self -respecting, that's worth considering. What caliber of person just hands out sexual acts? And that's for you and whoever would do that with you. It's worth considering. If you respect yourself and the other person respects themself. It's respecting yourself, but it's respecting your potential. I want to keep emphasizing that.

It's the potential of what you want to create. It may not be who you are now, but who do you want to be? And what kind of marriage do you want to have? And what kind of relationship do you want to have with your children? That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. That's the potential I'm discussing. Right. And the caliber of marriage is going to be built on the caliber of person. And again, I'm just thinking out loud here. If I was single again, I would...

and I'm looking for an ideal partner, I'm going to be disappointed in some woman who's just willing to hand out sexual whatever.

especially early on. It's like, hey, let's just go, I'm like, whoa, what? Where is? And that was the kind of person you are. You were that person. Yeah. And I had become that person despite my previous.

Rachel Denning (01:26:03.949)
whatever you want to call it, like I had become that person. And so we attracted each other and we were attracted to each other because we were both pursuing ideals. We had become idealists already and that was a shared attraction. I'm gonna use that word again because it was. It was what attracted us to each other and then became the foundation of the relationship we now have.

So yeah, it is important. It is important. I just can't emphasize it enough. It's not.

meaningless or more.

It's so much bigger than we might think on the surface. We did a whole podcast on first layer thinking or first level thinking and second level thinking. This whole podcast episode is about second level thinking about, oh, it's not just the mere act. There's so much more. And it's not about it being right or wrong. Right. It's like, what is it that really serves you and serves society? It's so much deeper and bigger than that.

And now that you're touching my leg with your fingers, it's stirring exciting thoughts about this wonderful topic. Wow. So give this some deep consideration. Have the conversations. Wrap your head around it. See it from all angles. Study it in different ideas. And ultimately just...

Rachel Denning (01:27:40.653)
Go deep into what it is you truly want most and then evaluate if your actions are in alignment with those things and what is really serving you, not what's easy or pleasurable, but what actually serves you. Which also means drives you. Yeah. Let it drive you. And are you wasting that drive? Don't waste.

the precious drive. There's so much little precious drive in life. And so many people struggle to be motivated and driven. Don't waste what's already there, what's built into us, literally created and evolved inside of us. Don't waste that. And if you know someone who needs to hear this message, share it. I think you need to listen to this podcast about masturbating. But share it. And what's interesting about that is the conversation's happening.

Like people are talking about it. They're talking about sex and they're talking about sexuality and they're talking about masturbation and they're trying to find answers and they're coming to conclusions that are sometimes short -sighted and then they're questioning it. And so that's why we felt really driven and drawn to talk about this. Right. Because there's a lot of people asking and there's not a lot of people talking about it, at least in it. Especially not giving the bold answers that we're giving. And the big context. With the big context, which again.

a few years ago we wouldn't have ever talked about something like this. We would have said, I don't know. But we've firmly come to believe that this is the right course of action. I just see it as a very...

sincere source of power in your life that when used in the right way can drive you to creating something more extraordinary for yourself, for your marriage, for your future marriage, for your children. And related to the whole children thing, because parents are asking, these are the types of things we tell our kids. We tell our kids that this is a drive that's driving you to become that person. And so you could...

Rachel Denning (01:29:48.685)
listen to it and talk to your kids about it. Definitely talk to your spouse about it if it's an issue. And if you're single. Make changes, set standards in writing and commit to them and be clear. And find other outlets. Yeah, yep, there are. And if you want it bad enough, you'll do it, it takes to get it. Okay, awesome. Thanks you guys, thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being awesome, thanks for caring.

Thank you.

Rachel Denning (01:30:21.901)
you