Get answers to your questions about marriage, parenting and family life from experts and parents of 7 children!

Rachel Denning (00:10.478)
Welcome back to the podcast. Greg and I had a lot of fun with this one.

Understanding yourself and other human beings around you is one of the trickiest and most complex aspects of life and relationships. Your personality begins to form from conception in the womb and as you grow as a child. You don't start to become aware of this until much later in life and some people never gain awareness of who they are and what makes them do the things they do. For a long time Greg and I were not fan of personality tests until Jordan Peterson's Big Five personality. They felt too confining and

optimizing, labeling you as a certain color or number. They weren't holistic, but human beings are much more complex than that. This personality test is different and it's been peer reviewed and works across cultures. In this episode, Greg and I analyze our personal levels of agreeableness, conscientiousness, extraversion, neuroticism, and openness to experience. There's a lot of laughing at ourselves through this process. We walk through and cycle analyze our personal results on

Jordan Peterson's Big Five Personality Test in order to help you understand how these things play out in yourself, your relationship, and in your parenting. We also give a quick answer to a question we received regarding sex and conversation, the cycle of intimacy as we call it. We received this question after a spouse listened to episode number 174 of the marriage Q &A. We address falling in and out of love, major reasons for divorce, and deepening your intimacy in your relationship by making deposits instead of just withdrawals.

We also cover why your wife cries and wants to talk while you just listen because she needs a mental and emotional outlet. A woman wants her man to be someone who will listen to her. Without this emotional vulnerability, she'll never be able to open up sexually. Stick by your woman when she ugly cries and she will love you even more. This is a very insightful and informational episode that will give you the vocabulary and words you need to articulate what's happening in your marriage and your life.

Rachel Denning (02:09.837)
This episode is sponsored by our Best Self Bundle. The bundle gives you tools, resources, and strategies that you need to reach upward and to become your best self, to develop your personality into what you would like it to be instead of just accepting what you currently have. Visit ExtraordinaryFamilyLife .com and click at the link at the top for the Best Self Bundle and start today learning simple strategies you can use to create powerful positive transformations in your personality. Also make sure to check out Greg's

Be the Man podcast and his Be the Man masterclass. If you are a man or you know one, you need these resources. You can take the personality test we discussed at understandmyself .com.

Rachel Denning (02:57.997)
Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of the Extraordinary Family Life podcast. Before we get started, I'm so excited about my podcast. Can I use some air space to share? You guys, cool stuff going on in the Be The Man podcast. Interviewing amazing people who've done incredible things. And so if you're a man, or if you know a man, go over and subscribe.

to that podcast. There's some cool stuff coming. I'm doing another interview today and another one tomorrow. There's some cool stuff coming down. Are you interviewing the guy that we met? Yes. We met this guy on a hike in Ecuador. Ended up having a super cool connection. His story is amazing. So I'm excited to dig into his. He's done some cool, crazy cool stuff. A British guy. Yep. And so that's tomorrow. And then to

is with a guy who specializes in wilderness survival. Like he knows some cool stuff. If it all falls apart, you want to be friends with this guy or at least tap into his knowledge, right? And I'm going through his book right now. It's really cool. So anyways, Be The Man podcast. And of course, I'm just going to use this as a plug here because it's part of my mission and my life's work right now is to help men. And...

What the things that are happening every day inside the Be The Man tribe and the master class. Yeah. And stuff is hitting home. Serious stuff, meaningful stuff, powerful stuff like exciting changes and transformations and in marriage, relationship, kids, work, stuff like that. But then crazy stuff. Literally right before you walked in my office, I was reading what just got posted and it was.

like a serious tragedy, but a stark reminder of the absolute necessity we have to be prepared as men to be protectors and providers. Oh wow. Yeah, heavy stuff. And like it's happening, something's going on every day, right? And we're getting ready for our man camp. So I've been planning and strategizing for that. So anyways, cool stuff. So...

Rachel Denning (05:21.453)
If you're a man, or you know a man, this stuff matters so much. Get in on it. Okay, so let's dive in. Today, we are gonna talk about personality and answer some questions that came in, really good questions about connection and marriage. And well, but in this personality piece, fits in all of it, like who you, understanding yourself and understanding other human beings around you.

is one of the trickiest things in life because human beings are complex. Absolutely. And we're packing so much. What do you call it? It's like you get input from literally before you're born. You start getting input in the womb. In like imprinting. Yes. So yes, all this imprinting is going on, all this formulating is going on.

and it becomes a part of your conscious, your subconscious, your personality. Like it's, and there's billions and billions of data points coming into each human being. And it starts to form and shape our whole reality. And we've got to figure out and practice understanding ourselves and understanding the people that are around us. Right. So specifically we're going to talk about and go through some of.

Jordan Peterson's Big Five Personality Test. And we love this because you and I. Well, I'll back up right there. So for a long time, I despised personality tests. Because I felt like they were not an accurate, or at least not whole. It wasn't a holistic approach. They weren't totally accurate. They were creating labels. And a lot of people were using. Putting you in a box. Are you red, blue, or you? Yeah, exactly.

Are you this, these letters or this color or whatever. And people were using that as a crutch or as a label or a box for themselves and for each other. Oh, you do that because you're that or well, I can't help it. I'm this and man, that would get me so fired up. And I was that way for years and turns out, turns out, but turns out Jordan Peterson was similar. He also hated personality tests and

Rachel Denning (07:45.805)
this one is different because he's done all of the peer -reviewed or looked at all the peer -reviewed research and psychologically this one just matches up. It just works. It's a holistic assessment of... That puts you on a scale. On a scale of these major things that, as I understand it, all human beings fall somewhere on this scale. Exactly. And it's just telling you where you are.

at this moment on the scale. And it can change. And I think unless it's fantastic, it should change. Yeah. Like if there's a weakness in yours or say for instance, your spouse or your children, people you're immediately with, there needs to be some adjusting there and some growing that will level that out and work through that. So I love this assessment.

And it's not saying, well, this is the way you are. It's like, oh, this is where you are on this spectrum right now. And this is what that means to be at this spot in the spectrum. And that is such valuable information and why we're going to talk about it. Yes, exactly. But it also ties into this question that we received that I think we'll read right now. But it.

It comes from, we did a podcast a couple weeks ago and it was essentially a marriage Q &A and we talked about the cycle of intimacy with sex and conversation. That it was this...

feedback loop, essentially. And all points of intimacy. We talked about the wheel of intimacy. There's so many ways to build intimacy. It's not just sex. It's not just conversation. And in a whole marriage, and a thriving marriage, we need all of those levels of intimacy. In fact, can I do a little sidetrack here for a minute? I've been thinking about this a lot. I think sometimes we, maybe it's just subconscious, or maybe it's just kind of a default thinking.

Rachel Denning (09:48.845)
We think, well, I'm gonna get married, because we're in love. This is exciting. I love you, you love me. Like, we're, let's get married. Let's start a family. This is gonna be so exciting. And we somehow just think like, that'll just carry over. Like, it'll keep going. But this idea, this imagery that's been in my head the last few days is that what got us there, like, it...

dries up or dies or wears out, whatever the word is, what was there, it won't last. It dissipates or it's exhaustible. That was the one thing I was saying. And it's also exhausting. Can you imagine if you lived - Wait a minute, are you saying that it's exhausting to live with me? That's exactly what I was saying, babe. No, I'm talking, I remember actually my dad saying something about this and it came from C .S. Lewis, these different types of love.

this type of love that we experience when you're in love, it is very exhausting in that it uses up a lot of resources mentally, physically, like you stay up later, you talk, you're, you know, I mean, a lot of energy, emotionally, exactly. A lot of energy goes into that type of love, which is what draws you to getting married. Without that, I don't think people would get married because they would be like, yeah, what's the big draw? You know what I mean?

So it's necessary for that, but at some point it does have to, biologically, it has to dissipate so you can still function. So you can go to work and you can make money and you can order the groceries. I wouldn't leave your side. I wouldn't go work. Nothing would get done. You wouldn't survive as a sleep piece. No sleeping. Yeah, exactly. No. So that's really what it's like. And so it has to dissipate once that marriage is made.

so that you can function in the regular world and create something else besides just love, right? What else is there? That's what people think though, you know? That's what I still think. You're the best. Okay, but you're right. So it's exhausting and it's exhaustible and fitting in... Oh, keep going. I was just going to say, because I'm not trying to say that we're not in love. We are in love. It just transforms into a deeper, stronger type of love that's not...

Rachel Denning (12:10.253)
It can. It's more sustainable. It doesn't always. Right. It's more sustainable. Well, and it has to be, this was the thought I kept having and I really want to emphasize this and hopefully the way I'm saying this or maybe you see it a different way, but this principle I hope sparks for those of you listening that it kind of clicks. It has to keep growing. It has to keep renewing. Yeah. So I'm going to, we are recreating our marriage.

inside of our marriage, right? We're getting a new marriage inside of our marriage because, well, again, there's so much complexity here. We're both changing. We're growing our circumstances. We're not the same people. We can't. So we're not holding on to this. When I was 23 and you were 21, we're not still like, remember when? We need to get that back. It's different and hopefully better. Oh, absolutely better. Well, it is for us. But I'm saying for other people, hopefully it...

as it changes it gets better. A lot of times it just changes for the worse or it just kind of dries up or it's exhaustible. What you had gets exhausted and so you're married for five years and then all of a sudden you're like, man, we just don't have what we used to. And then you hit 10 years or 15 or 20 and you're like, we're just hanging on because 20 years ago we said we would. That's lame. I would say that is probably one of the main reasons for divorces because that's what's happening. What they had, they're trying to live off of that.

They're trying to sustain their marriage off what they had when they got married and it's not enough. Oh, that's all used up. Yeah. And instead of regenerating and creating something new and deeper and better, they're living on fumes. Right. And well, we can go to another metaphor. It's a bank account. And honestly, I know you're passionate and excited and love when you get married, but let's be honest, it's a pretty small bank account. Right. It's like you're...

your poor starving college students and your concept of love and life, you're like, we're loaded, this will last forever. And so you get married with your 10 grand in your account and that just gets used up. And then you're just hanging on saying, well, we started this account together. We'll hold on to this last cent to the bitter end. You're like, man, why aren't you making more deposits? Why isn't that account growing? Why aren't you banking on millions now? Well, it's because you're not recreating your marriage. Yes. You're not.

Rachel Denning (14:32.717)
building on it and we will always come back to this point of working on yourself first and foremost more than you do on anything else and we're gonna get into this with the personality piece is like I have to work on me because that's an investment in you and then we work on us and that's an investment in us and so we're renewing and recreating and revitalizing the marriage as we go otherwise

Runs empty. Yeah. Exactly. Whoa. OK. Keep going with the question. OK. So back to the Q &A podcast we did previously, and if you haven't listened to that, you should. We just talked about the cycle of conversation and sex. Specifically, we're focusing on that. Because I think ultimately, even though you can connect intimately in a lot of other ways, I think those two pieces are the linchpin of a marriage relationship. Because.

That's what holds it together. It's like the glue. It's the most important piece. But the question came back of, well, that's great. And I get a lot of fulfillment for both of those ways of connecting, having conversation, having meaningful conversation and sex. But I feel like, specifically in this case, my wife doesn't want either of those as much as I do. Right? So that's part of the question. My wife doesn't want that as much as I do. So.

Is there something I'm missing or?

Well, what is it? Let's pause there for a second. Because this can go both ways. In clients I've worked with or couples I've worked with, you'll have one of the couple, it can be the man or the woman, either way, this rotates all the time and it shifts all the time between personality, what we're gonna talk about today. Sometimes, yeah, the one of the couple has the much higher drive in a lot of things and the other one's just.

Rachel Denning (16:35.149)
And sometimes it works where the other is like, well, I'm just totally content. I'm just along for the ride. That's great. I love it. And then sometimes they want to take a stronger role. Or one might be very energetic and the other one kind of passive. And the other might be very talkative and the other quiet or extroverted, introverted, whatever. It works out in a different way. Again, this is all going to tie in later with the personality test. Yes, it'll all come out. What I really want to emphasize here is maybe clarify what we were talking about, about the time.

type of conversation that works for each person. That's what I was actually trying to get because I don't want to read the whole thing. It is kind of long. But what I'm trying to summarize is they're saying I love to connect intellectually through conversation and meaningful conversation. But my wife doesn't seem to have as strong a need or drive for that. And of course, my sixth drive is higher too. And one of the things we thought when we're reading this is like, okay, there is a little bit of misunderstanding here because we were talking about...

meaningful conversation. In fact, that was one of the questions we were answering in that last podcast. But connecting with your spouse through conversation, especially your wife, is not always about intellectual meaningful conversation. And we're going to explain this for a second. Because that that did come up because for us, the two of us, that's unique for us. We love discussing.

big philosophical ideas. We love just reading complex, difficult books and history and philosophy and science. And we love geeking out. But that's also developed over time. Yes. Well, we did kind of start that way. But that's unique to us. And so we don't want to say that's what couples are banking on, this intellectual or meaningful conversation. What I do want to emphasize is that

is conversation and the quality and quantity and the outcome that might look very different for each couple. Right. The other thing we want to mention though, we want to really emphasize here too, because here's a problem I could foresee in this situation or one like this. The husband is thinking, oh, we're going to have conversation and that's going to connect us. And in his mind, he has a definition of what meaningful conversation looks like.

Rachel Denning (19:03.181)
I can see this. I'm coming in with my book. And it's like, I've been just wrestling with Rene Descartes or something. And I'm like, I'm going to go connect with Rachel so we can make love later. And the wife has a completely different definition of what she wants this conversation to look like. She's thinking. Well, this is what I want to explain. Because sometimes the emotional connection that happens.

through conversation for a woman is not any sort of conversation that a man would want to have. Okay? Which means it may look like her... Wow, that's worth saying again. Just emphasize and repeat that. Okay. The conversation the woman wants to have is the type of conversation the man is not interested in.

That is so important because if I mistake this and I think Rachel wants to connect with me through conversation, I'm like, I got it. I know what we're going to talk about. And oh, it's going to be. And I'm picturing it in my head. We're going to have this great discussion about these really important things. And then she'll just feel so in love with me. We'll have this magical evening afterwards. It's going to be the best. Right. But you're saying. But sometimes what happens. That's not the case at all. Is that what.

the conversation ends up looking like is a crying, complaining Sesh that he feels defensive or guilty or being attacked with. Or now I need to get work. Or now I gotta go to work fixing all the problems she's complaining about. When for a woman, she needs an outlet mentally and emotionally. She needs someone that she can go to and tell her every...

problem, her every thought, and someone will just listen and understand without judging her, right? There's few people that she can go to for that. One of those people she wants to be her man. She wants to be able to go to him and say, these are all the horrible thoughts I've been having about myself, or these are all the hard things I had today, even though I know you think they're not that hard, but for me, they were hard and this is why she needs an outlet for that because.

Rachel Denning (21:28.397)
If it doesn't come out, it stays stuck in her head and in her body and she will never be in the mood for sex. Or be able to fully open up sexually or otherwise. Yeah, because this is the key to vulnerability. She can't tell you everything that's on her mind without you thinking there's something wrong with her or thinking there's something wrong with your marriage or thinking there's something wrong with you. Did I say you? Her?

you, the marriage. Well, you got to keep repeating that. That message needs to be driven home. I can't sit there and tell you, well, baby, you shouldn't feel like that. Right. It's not that hard. You should be happy. Come on. Why don't you change your perspective here? Like, well, I'll fix that tomorrow. Why are you crying about it? What's the problem? So the man brain's like, da da da da, trying to solve it all. And that's not. She doesn't really. She doesn't want that. Yeah. Because a lot of times.

She might know how to fix it and she might know what needs to be done. She just wants someone that's going to listen and say, oh my gosh, yeah, that's hard. I'm so sorry. I understand. That's all she needs. And after that happened, she's like, ah, I feel so much better. Now, a lot of women may not be aware of that process and maybe they've never had the opportunity to actually go through that process and realize that once you're able to go through that process, you connect deeper with your spouse.

So in some ways in this last podcast we were doing, that's what we were talking about. We weren't just talking about, hey, you're gonna have this intellectual discussion about Descartes or some philosophical thing and you're gonna be like, wow, that was amazing. Sometimes this conversation is, I'm gonna cry and tell you all the sad things I've been dealing with because all of my emotions and feelings have been stacking for days or weeks or months and now.

it's coming out in this vomit of emotion and it looks terrible and ugly and you're like repulsed by it. But if you stick by your woman through that, she will love you even more. So some, well, and again, sometimes it will be intellectual. Sometimes it will be meaningful. Right. I'm not saying that doesn't happen. Sometimes the conversation will look like her just unpacking and processing out loud everything that's in her head or heart.

Rachel Denning (23:51.245)
And your part of the conversation is, uh -huh, yep, hmm, OK. Touch is important. Yeah, so I'm touching and she's intending. Because if you can touch her through this process, she feels safer. Instead of withdrawing, oh my gosh, you're scary. Gosh, this is getting scary. So in those conversations, I honestly might not say much. Oh, yeah, you usually don't say much. And that's totally fine and expected. In those instances, it is not.

a technical conversation. It is a monologue where I listen intently without judgment. And the reason why a lot of couples don't do this because they don't is because when you initially start doing this process, it is, it can be very ugly. Like it's not a pleasant thing, especially because she will have a lot of buildup.

She will have so much emotional buildup that at first, she's going to ugly cry so bad, you're going to be like, whoa, why did we even do this? This is horrible, right? But eventually it gets where it's not, you know, like I'll cry once a month and we'll have our crying conversation and that's it. And I want to point out too that if you haven't been in the practice of doing this and it is part of your couple dynamic, again, this might not be true for every couple, but it's...

Pretty solid for a lot of people generalizing, right? And so if you haven't been doing it and there is a lot of buildup and it's new, you're both gonna have to work through it. And it might not, hey, let's do this. Cause afterwards you'll connect with lead to sex. Like afterwards you're like, oh crap. You might be like, wow, let's go to bed. Cause that was exhausting. We're gonna just work through this. Cause stuff might come up. Oh, it will come up. And.

Cause she might be holding onto something for 20 years of like, well, you did this and I never talked about it. Or you always do this and I feel like you hate me or I feel like you're cheating on me with your work or I feel like, you know, all of these things, it's going to be unpleasant at first. And some of it might be really painful. And again, this can go both ways, right? A husband might feel like he needs to share those things. So when it comes up,

Rachel Denning (26:10.573)
For the person speaking, it's not gonna taste so pleasant or great. There's gonna be some ugliness. And for the person receiving, it's not gonna feel so great. Yeah, because you feel defensive. Like, well, that's not what I meant, or that's not what I intended. And it might feel like an attack, or it might feel pointed, right? So, man, it's important to just get through this all and...

Keep your cool, don't react to it. Just sit with it, process it. Allow the emotion to be there. Let it all go. Actually, this one thing I did in the master class in tribe is I invited all the guys to, I did one specific training and I asked them, I'd come up with them some really solid questions to ask your wife and then take her out on a great date, ask her the questions and just listen. And the guys who did it, like it was hours of just.

and hearing and all kinds of tough stuff and beautiful stuff comes up. And then we can clear the air and the space and all that for more growth and more renewal and intimacy. And deeper connection. Awesome. And then when you get on a rhythm of doing this regularly as a couple, then there's not the buildup and the pain and the resentment that's been growing. It's not nearly as painful at all. It's like we process this all the time. And so when that comes up...

And I think, I would say that's gonna lead to fewer of those type of conversations where it's just like, oh, I gotta just get this out, I gotta explode like a volcano, because it's being processed regularly. And then it's actually, strategically, it's easier to have more of the meaningful, intellectual conversations, because the other stuff's being processed and cared for. Well, not just strategically, but also physiologically, mentally, especially for a woman. All of that stuff is cleared out.

It's like tabs in a brain, tabs on your browser, it's tabs in your brain. A woman has all of these tabs that are open and some of these tabs have been open for 15, 20 years. And when she starts closing those tabs, now she has more space in her brain for meaningful intellectual conversation and for sex because it's hard for her to get to that mental space of physical intimacy when she has all these open tabs. So.

Rachel Denning (28:32.557)
Again, going through this process at first, it's going to be a lot of work because there's so many tabs up. But as you do it regularly and consistently, then there's not as many tabs. And you're like, okay, I've got to close these few tabs, but it's faster, it's easier. There's less emotion, especially super intense emotion. And then you're like, okay, good. We all feel better. And there's more space there to connect in other ways. Love it. Yeah. So.

That was one aspect of it, but another aspect we did want to, I guess, at least touch on was...

partly this idea that also the things we are talking about in teaching are definitely coming from our Western philosophy background. Well, okay, so this gets into the personality piece. Yes. So personality begins getting formulated from everything. Your religious upbringing or lack thereof. Your traditional upbringing or lack thereof. Your cultural background. Yeah.

I mean, I guess even in some instances, race could play into this, but it's culture more of that. But then even inside of a predominant overall culture, there are subcultures and then even family cultures. Socio -economic status. Yes, so yeah, whether you grew up with wealth or in poverty. When you think about it, you take a person who grew up like wondering if we were gonna be able to eat that day.

like that kind of level of scarcity. And then another person was raised like never missed a meal. They always had wealth and abundance. They're going to grow up with very different, I guess I'm going to say personality. It's going to be a different framework, but it's going to affect their personality. Absolutely. Yeah. So the big five personality test that Jordan Peterson does, he's found that it's true across cultures. So that's one of the things that's really

Rachel Denning (30:38.797)
he really likes about it is that it's not just based on Western philosophy or one certain way of doing life. But it is true across cultures. But what I guess I'm trying to say is that we also need to take that into consideration. When you are in a relationship with your spouse, you need to consider their background, of course. What culture do they come from? What socioeconomic status did they have? What religious background, educational background? All of that's going to come.

have a part, play a part when you're trying to have a conversation with them or interact with them. So that's another thing to think about when you're like, well, my spouse likes this more and you know, their drive is not as strong for anything, sex, conversation, whatever. It could be that that's playing a part. And so you have to also work through those aspects to figure out why do you...

view it this way? Why do you think about it this way? Why aren't you as interested in this? And we have a global audience, so we regularly get messages like this. Like, hey, you know, my spouse is from this different culture or this different country or from a different background. They grew up this way, we grew up this way. And man, this comes up a ton. And what's interesting about it, and it's probably better that we are ignorant when we're young and getting married because...

We might never get married if we are analyzing everything. Like, OK, well, before we can start dating here, I want to know what this happened. Please give me a history. Yeah, this happened, and what do you want about this? And so that might prevent a lot of relationships. But now that you're in a relationship, you've got to think through all this and just realize it plays a part. It doesn't have to break things. It's not even permanent, not even culture. Any of it, I think, is malleable.

but you have to be aware of it. Right, because it's everything that has happened to you from the culture you grew up in to the parents you had, the teachers you had, it's wired your brain. It's created the neural connections you have. And your spouse has different neural connections because they grew up different. And that even comes down into simple things like the words you use. And even if you're using the same words, say you have the same vocabulary.

Rachel Denning (33:01.133)
you can give a totally different definition to a word than your spouse might. And you're using the same word saying this. And so they're thinking, oh, well, that word means this. But you're like, no, that word means this. You have different definitions for the same words. And so you're having a tough time communicating simply because you don't have the same definitions for the same words. And that can be true if you grew up across the street from each other, but especially true if you grew up on the other side of the globe. Exactly.

So you might be using the same word in English in this case, but man, it means something different. Exactly. To your spouse. Okay, so let's dive into... So he takes the big five personality traits and breaks them into sub traits within each one. So let's just, we're not going to go through all of it because it would take so long. We could do multiple podcasts. Yeah. Just on this. But let's hit some of the big ones and specifically kind of take it...

like what it means and then do kind of a scale and talk about, we can talk about our test. So we recommend you take the test. That's awesome. That's what I was gonna say, yeah. And then if you're a couple, you can have your scores compared. Connected and then you compare them. It gives you this assessment of like, okay, because one of you is higher in this, the other is lower, here's a likely case.

And it's really, really insightful, especially if there's quite a difference in the spectrum, which there's a few that we are quite different on. And as this plays out, again, none of this is permanent. We'll keep emphasizing this and you can change it. But it helps us understand ourselves and our others and why we might have tendencies. And then hopefully you're thinking, how can I improve this if this has been my tendency and it's not working for me? It's not serving me. And if you connect your reports,

as a couple, it can also help you see why you have misunderstandings. And then suddenly, now you have this shared vocabulary because you have the vocabulary from the test and you're saying, oh, wow, it's because I'm high in agreeableness and you're low in agreeableness. That's why we have this problem with this thing. Now I get it. Well, especially, thank you for bringing that point where you might disagree philosophically on issues. We see this a lot with couples.

Rachel Denning (35:19.181)
And they'll get into arguments about it. They're like, well, I think it's like this. And everyone's like, no, it's not. It can't be like that. It's like this. And they fight about it. And then when you understand this, you're like, oh, well, it's because the predominant perception for each individual is kind of looking at it differently. Well, of course, you're going to see it differently. And you're going to argue because you don't understand yourself or each other very much. And you don't know where you're coming from. So it becomes a conflict point. Exactly. So.

If you want to do the test, it's at understandmyself .com. That's Jordan Peterson's website for it. I'm just going to go over what the big five are first. So the first one is agreeableness. The second one's conscientiousness. The third is extroversion. The fourth is neuroticism. And the fifth is openness to experience. Now, when I heard all those words, when you very first introduced this to me, I was like, OK, OK.

I was giving my meaning to those words. So you said agreeableness. I'm like, agreeable. Oh, neuroticism. That means you're neurotic. Like you don't think, you act weird. You don't think clearly. That's not what he's talking about here. Or conscientiousness or orderliness or extroversion. I thought, oh, okay, extroversion. I know what that one means. It's totally different here. So you've got to work within the framework and the definition. These psychologists, and it's not just Jordan Peterson. It's a group.

group of psychologists. These psychologists, they'll tell you what it means. So don't be like, oh I know exactly where I'm going to be on extroversion. Yeah, I know where I am on this scale. Easy. Now within each of those five, they have two subcategories. So like agreeableness, the two are compassion and politeness. Conscientiousness includes industriousness and orderliness. Extroversion includes enthusiasm and assertiveness. Neuroticism includes withdrawal.

and volatility, and openness to experience includes openness and intellect. Now again, you think, oh, intellect, that means how smart you are. Well, that's not actually what it's referring to. It's referring to your willingness to learn or explore new ideas, okay? So. And what I love about this, I love, love the, when you think you know yourself, then you're like, what?

Rachel Denning (37:45.773)
That's... No! That's not me! I'm so open! And they're like, actually you're not. And then that's what's funny because then the people around you are like, actually yeah, that is you. Let's tell you what you're like. No, I'm not! So we did actually... I took the test first because I was fascinated by it and I'm a Jordan Peterson fan, of course. And then I had you take it. And then we actually had Oliver.

teens take it and then that was very fascinating because we sat around with everyone and we all read our scores and then read kind of what that meant and it was pretty enlightening and funny. We had a blast. That was one of my favorite family discussions. Because everyone could see like, yeah, you totally do that. It's so funny. So I think we'll just start by reading our scores. Yes. Okay. So the first one is agreeableness and

I rate 54 % in agreeableness. So out of 100, you're kind of in the middle. Yeah, I'm about in the middle, which is pretty average, actually. Greg is high in agreeableness. He is 82%. Yeah, baby. Now, this isn't like zero, your score sucks, and closer to 100, it's better. It's not that. You can misunderstand this. Yes. Like, oh, sweet, I got 100. But if you get 100 in neuroticism, you do not win the prize.

Well, even if you got 100 in agreeableness, you're not winning the prize because what that means is that you're probably being taken advantage of by a lot of people. A lot, yep. You're acquiescing. You want to get along so much that you just sacrifice your own desires or values or even standards because you'll do anything to be agreeable. Exactly. So it's not a good thing to be on the far spectrum on that one. Which, having said that...

You're like, well, you're 82%, Greg. Yeah, I'm a little too agreeable. Which is fascinating because, well, this is what's fascinating and how complex humans are. I think that that's because of your ability to be able to get along with anyone. Not that you submit or acquiesce, because you usually don't, but you have the ability to literally get along with anyone. And the way I don't get taken advantage of or the way I can draw a hard line.

Rachel Denning (40:04.941)
Or even with my coaching clients, I can just say it how it needs to be said, right to them. I am saying this love, but you're going to hear the truth right here. And it's uncomfortable. I can do that because of another score down later we'll talk about. Right. So then, OK. And again, so unagreeableness here, right? I'm a little high. And so I need to be aware of that. Rachel's right in the middle. But I need to be aware of this. I'm a high in agreeableness. Is that a strength? Could be.

Every strength usually has an inherent weakness. So I need to be aware of that. And then as we go through each of these, you're just assessing like, is that, is that where I want to be as my best self? And so we can adjust, but let's keep going through them. Okay. Um, now part of agreeableness,

is, well, OK, so just really quick, because I'm scrolling through our results. They have all of this stuff. It's like, here's the implications of agreeableness as a couple. And it goes through what this means, because you have different scores and agreeableness. Or even if you have the same scores, like if you're both extremely agreeable, you might never get anything done, because you're both like, whatever you want, huh? You decide. You decide, dear. And if one of you is really high and the other one's really low, then the one that's high might be like, you end up your whole marriage.

Right. Acquiescing to the other spouse. You just defer, defer, defer. Yes. And then you feel quietly resentful and unfulfilled because we always do what you do. And like, well, every time I ask what you want, you just say whatever you want. And so then it gets in this conflict. Because the one spouse is higher in agreeableness and the other spouse is lower in agreeableness. So then it talks about your virtues and faults as a couple in the framework of agreeableness. But OK, so then part of agreeableness, one of the things is compassion.

Now, this is what my family loves to laugh at me about. I'm 36 % compassionate. I'm not a compassionate person. Which means, it doesn't mean I don't have any compassion. It's just very much like, hey, I expect you to fulfill your duties and I'm not gonna feel sorry for you if you don't do it. Like, get your act together, come on, get it done. That's how I treat myself and that's how I view the world of like, just take ownership responsibility and do it.

Rachel Denning (42:18.381)
Greg, on the other hand, is 95 % compassionate. And again, as you go through these and think about them, there's reasons for that. Oh, absolutely. Like the things I suffered and the hell I went through, and then going out into all these places around the world and seeing deep, deep suffering and hearing. Well, and I get to work with people every single day. So I hear the story.

behind the behavior, why they do what they do, why they are what they are, almost always has some story. And man, it has just massively grown my compassion for people. And so I'm strategic about that. That is a chosen thing. I'm extremely high in compassion through my experiences and by choice. Like I've chosen that one.

And well, a couple things here. One of them is I find it interesting too because I know you, you are also very low in compassion, if that's what we want to call it, towards people who you think should know better. They have all the advantages, they have all the opportunities, and yet they destroy their life. You have very little compassion for people like that. So it's fascinating because you do have a lot of compassion.

in a lot of situations, but you can also be extremely hard and judgmental on. There are instances where you might see this as you as listeners or somebody from the outside might see that as a weakness or a flaw in me. There are a few instances where you might be like, dude, you have no compact. Exactly. You have no heart. I'm like, ah, that sucker knows better. And he violated and cross that line and ooh man, that, yeah, that's when my fierce.

Exactly. Warrior comes out like you piece of garbage. Exactly. But overall, extremely high in capacity. Yes. But then on the other hand, I know when I was taking this test, I had a hard time answering the questions sometimes. They want you to go through it once and no input from anyone else. You're not supposed to ask other people their opinion. You're supposed to take it by yourself, take it one time. That's supposed to give the most accurate results.

Rachel Denning (44:39.629)
I've had clients take it and immediately say, I want to retake it. I don't like my score. But I had a hard time answering some of the questions because I thought, well, it depends. It depends on whether I'm interacting with my family or if I'm interacting with people in the world. I tried to give.

For mine, I tried to give my answers on how I would interact with people in the world, where I feel like they would have been different if I based it off of interactions with my family. Because with compassion, I feel like I'm a lot more compassionate with my family members. And with people you know and care about, where in your case, like strangers, you're like, hmm, they do their thing. And so you're right. There's more complexity. There's layers of complexity and personality. So you might be extremely compassionate with children.

Especially my children. Not compassionate with adults. Or you might be compassionate with the elderly. And not so much with you. Not you, Rachel, but just in general. A person might be compassionate with the elderly or people who are ill or something. Just massive amounts of compassion. Like, no, you're healthy. I have no compassion for you. Like, go! Right? I have little compassion for healthy looking men who are begging on the street. Because I'm like, dude.

Go get a job, right? But I do have a lot of compassion for begging children in other countries. Like I've seen that in plenty of, in India and Guatemala and I have a lot of compassion for that. So it definitely changes, right? So yeah. There's a lot to this. Okay. Another part of agreeableness is politeness. Politeness, I love this definition. It's essentially like compassion is telling people what, wait.

I can't even remember it now, so I just ruined it. Compassion is...

Rachel Denning (46:33.581)
I can't even think of it. Well read it, read the definition. I know, but it's not right here. It's essentially politeness is telling people what they need to hear, where compassion is telling them what they want to hear. It can be like that. That was one of the things I remember reading. Compassion is telling people more what they want to hear, because you're trying to help them feel better, or expressing sympathy for them. Where politeness is like, no I'm going to tell you what you need to hear, even if you don't. If you're low in compa...

I'm sorry, if you're low in politeness, you're more likely to do that because you're going to tell them what they need to hear instead of focusing on what they want to hear. And I think I actually, I messed that up. Cause I think that if you're high in politeness, that's what you're doing. You're telling people what they want to hear. So it's not compassion, it's politeness. If you're high in politeness, you're telling people what they want to hear. Where if you're low in politeness, you're telling them what they need to hear. That's what it was. So again, just a reminder here, polite.

in this case might not be the definition you use for the word polite. So I think that's a great way of what you were saying. It does say though it means you can be obedient and deferential to authority or respectful. So if you're high in politeness. Right, so if you're high in politeness. So I'm 71 % in politeness. I'm actually higher in politeness than I am with compassion. So even if I don't feel sympathy for you, I'll still be nice to you. That's essentially what that means because I'm high in politeness. Where you... I know Rachel well, she'll...

even if she despises something or totally disagrees or she'll just kind of stay quiet or she'll go along like if the groups you know would do this again she won't ever compromise her values or standards and she's fierce when she needs to be but if it's like if it could disrupt things she's more likely to go along yeah because i don't want someone to feel embarrassed or

uncomfortable in public especially so I'll go along out of politeness where I may be like no you're so wrong on that but I'm in a smile but also I like I I also have the ability to understand why they might have that viewer opinion like be like I can see where you're coming from it's totally wrong because I've also looked at this other side of it and I you know analyzed it but I'm gonna be nice and not say anything but Greg is 50 no 45 percent in plain

Rachel Denning (48:53.741)
So you're higher in compassion, but you're lower in politeness, which is why you can easily call people out on things where I'm, I won't say something or you'll just be like, no dude, you're wrong. And that's where these two instances balance each other out. But what if I were, for example, and again, we're trying to, we're trying to, we're going through these, you guys, not so you learn about the two of us, like you could care less. It's, so you're learning these.

these principles and ideas, these practices, and your understanding yourself and understanding your spouse and your spouse and your children and other people. You might be going along and be like, well, that's so insightful because I know someone who's super high in compassion and super high in politeness. Man, they just they just go along with everything. They'll say whatever needs to be said. They'll do everything. Even if fundamentally they think it's wrong or disagree with their know what they're just all the way over to that far side. And it actually you might think being.

really high in compassion, really high in politeness is a virtue. It's not. It actually makes you really weak and vulnerable. And people who are often victims are very high in agreeableness, compassion, and politeness. And so people take advantage of them massively. And that is an extreme danger. Like for me as a protector, as a dad, as a husband, I'm gonna watch out for this. And if I have a child that's super high in those things,

And be like, hey, that's not a virtue. Once it goes too far, it's not a virtue. It's exposing you to be totally taken advantage of by people. And that's what's happening a ton. So many victims are victims they get taken advantage of because of that. Absolutely. Plus, besides the other side of this, too, is - I'm sorry. Hold on to that. Go ahead. Bullies. I'm high. No, wait. I'm low on agreeableness. No, you can't go. Bullies and -

Predators, they literally are out fishing, hunting, looking for people who are high in those things, who will be pushovers, who will be gullible, who will fall for their story or their plea or whatever. They're out, and it's conscious or subconscious, I don't know. I think it's often conscious. Subconscious. They're out there just filtering through the masses of humanity looking for someone. So if it's a man who wants to take advantage of a woman, he's just filtering through the whole bar, the whole...

Rachel Denning (51:17.581)
church congregation, wherever, he's just filtering through all these these girls looking for someone who takes pity on him and just does whatever he says and anytime she's like yes yes yes yes and he's like got it and then he's a bully and a predator. Yeah. Man, that's just sick. That's the guy I have no compassion for right there. But that's that's indicative and important to recognize. You okay.

And I want to point this out because you have no compassion on those guys despite the fact that you understand why they are the way they aren't. You understand their background and their psychology that makes them predators. And I would be. And you would have compassion on them. I've worked with men in maximum security prisons and I know their story and I hear why they do what they do and I get it. I've worked with people who've committed horrible, horrible atrocities because...

horrible atrocities were committed on them. Absolutely. And I do have compassion for that. There's a strategic balance to all this. Right. When it comes to them making victims of other people, you don't tolerate them. Okay. Now the other thing I wanted to talk about with this though is you're talking about virtues becoming vices and another reason, another one that can become a vice is compassion. Even in your...

family relationships. I think especially because we were actually going to do a podcast about this with a mother. A mother can have too much compassion for her children. Now this is absolutely... And too much politeness. Oh, that too. This is absolutely necessary when your children are small because they're completely helpless. So you have to have a lot of compassion to keep them alive. But you have to lessen that compassion as they get older because otherwise you are crippling them.

You are making them incapable of growing up and becoming adults by having too much compassion for them and doing everything for them or lessening the consequences or easing their challenges because when they're really little and they fall down and get scraped, that's great. Have compassion and then but then, you know, okay, you're tough. You got this. You're good to go. Keep going. When they fall down in their 20s and you act the same way, something's off. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (53:35.373)
You've got to break that because it's too much compassion. We see that quite often. Mothers predominantly with too much compassion, too much protection, way too soft on their kids. And so they make their kids just, they keep them as little babies. Exactly. And there's a term for this. I think we will end up doing a podcast on this eventually. Jordan Pearson calls it the eatable mother, which is not like eating.

You know, one of our children was like, Edo? You're eating the mother? What? It's edible, like from Oedipus Rex, who is a play about, it's kind of twisted, the son falls in love with his mother type thing. Yeah, it's all messed up, but it's a different principle. And it's the principle that you are not allowing your child to get away from you. You want to be the mother because that's your role. And without that role, you feel lost and hopeless. And so you keep them a child so that you can stay.

their mother, anyways. And this fundamentally and philosophically becomes a problem because we get thinking in our society that compassion is such a virtue, that being nice and kind is, we shouldn't go into this because it'll be the other podcast. I just have to go off for a second because what you reminded me of was Spider -Man No Way Home, okay? We watched this as a family and you left finally because you were like, I gotta go to bed. It was messed up. And it was messed up.

And this is one of the top, if not the highest producing movie ever worldwide. And what they were teaching in that movie was completely messed up psychologically. They were putting compassion as the highest virtue, even at the expense of sacrificing everything else just to save bad guys from themselves. We could honestly do a whole podcast talking about this. Cause we talked about it with our kids after.

When you start allowing predators to keep being predators and to keep taking advantage of others because you want to be so compassionate. And that's where compassion becomes a vice. When you let people commit atrocities or crime or take advantage of you or others because you're too high in compassion. But this plays out in a marriage too, you guys, where one of you might become the child wife or the boy husband.

Rachel Denning (56:00.589)
And if the other spouse is high in compassion, you tolerate it. Right. If you're high in compassion as a woman and your husband just acts like another one of your children and you let him because, oh, poor guy. He works hard. He had a hard life. Yeah. Poor little. I'm going to take care of everything for him. He stays a little baby. And I need to talk to him. He needs to come meet with me if he's a baby man.

Or the child wife, right? The husband's like, no, I'm going to do everything. You know, my wife's fragile and she's sensitive. I'm just going to do everything for her. I'm going to take care of it all. So she sits around watching soap operas all day, whatever, right? And she becomes completely in -table. She remains underdeveloped. Yeah, she's a child wife, like Dickens talked about. So again, that's where it becomes a vice. Absolutely. Right. OK, the next one is conscientiousness.

So I guess we should kind of define what conscientiousness means. It's essentially attention to detail, hard work, persistence, orderliness, as well as adherence to rules, standards, and processes. Cool. Like totally different definition there. You're working on with conscientiousness. And when you understand this, especially as a couple or as a family, you talk through this and have the shared vocabulary you're talking about, you start to understand like, OK, that makes sense. That makes sense. That's really good.

Let's see where we're at on that scale. Exactly. In those items. Right. So conscientious people are careful, reliable, organized, self -disciplined, and persevering. Where unconscious people... Isn't it really fun to kind of self -assess yourself on those before you take the test? Like, am I high in those things? And maybe think through it. Or before you read your scores or something, kind of read that and just kind of see where you think you land. Yeah. Okay, let's keep going.

Unconscious people tend to be laid back, less orderly, more inconsistent, and less reliable. They like to procrastinate and are less likely to persist when pursuing goals. Okay, so conscientiousness, I was very high. Are you late a lot? Are you messy and chaotic a lot? I had some coaching sessions this morning where we were talking about how the chaos in your mind becomes chaos.

Rachel Denning (58:20.557)
in your closet or your car or your desk or your work and this is like and everything feels cluttered and or no and your schedule tell me about your schedule you're all over the place and so because that's what's going on in your mind okay so I was 96 % yeah that's my strength Rachel gets the award but you were you're very orderly.

Oh yeah. You're very detailed, extremely detailed. Right. In fact, speaking of, we mentioned earlier how we change and grow and evolve throughout the years of marriage. This is one where I made a big transition. Well, I was going to say that actually, because you are high on this test. You're 93%. Now, when we got married, I guarantee you were not at a 93%. I would have been like a nine.

I don't think you were that bad, but you were probably average, so maybe 40 to 50 percent. So that's something that you definitely have, I guess you could say, improved on or changed at least, is conscientiousness and attention to detail and orderliness. And that has been deliberate because I wanted to grow and improve. Absolutely. I was in the free wandering, just I guess the caveman.

caveman gypsy whatever like I yeah and I didn't care yeah and so that changed but again okay just just for reference if if in your marriage one of you is really high one of you is really low that's gonna be a constant source of conflict one of you is really organized really neat really scheduled and the other one's like free flowing with the wind whatever I just want to be free and there has to be a balance there.

If both of you are super high, but kind of to a fault, that could cause a lot of stress or strain for your children, for other people around you, or if both of you are low. Again, this is a good one because it plays out in so many elements of life. You're just trying to run the house and do life together. If you're opposites or you're both one or the other, it becomes a fault.

Rachel Denning (01:00:39.405)
Now both of us are quite strategic and conscious of ours, so we're high really by choice and strategy on this one. Although I would say there was probably some years there where I was more towards the middle on conscientiousness and that was at that time intentional because we were living a different lifestyle, we were traveling, we were trying to be minimalist, we were no schedule, total flexibility.

And you know, that worked for a while. I think eventually I came back towards this because I think it's more my natural state, I suppose. And I think even though we both have very high scores, I would honestly say not that this is rude. I would say your scores may be a little bit lower. And I think that it keeps me more balanced ultimately, because otherwise if we were like, if you were as intense about things the way I'm intense about things, I think our house and our life would be a lot more.

It's like Jordan Peterson says all the time, you're trying to keep the balance between chaos and order. You don't want to be in one or the other. You want to be balanced between them. He even uses the analogy of like having two feet. You want a foot in chaos and a foot in order. Because otherwise, if you're too orderly, that's just, it's too sterile. It's too rigid. Yeah, fully planned versus spontaneity. You want both. And if you're too spontaneous or too planned, things get out of balance.

Right. So I think you have the ability to be high in conscientiousness. But I think naturally, you're a little more relaxed, honestly. I like adventure and spontaneity. And in that, there's not much conscientiousness. Although, no, it's interesting. And again, I think the whole idea here is you're not stuck. No personality is permanent. And if you're trying to be your very best self, you're consciously working on all these areas of your life. And you're going to be kind of playful and free flowing and have a good time. But you're also going to be

dead serious when it's time to be. And for me, like even when we're out adventuring, man, I'm crazy high in conscientiousness for any risk, any danger, any threat. You're paying attention to all those details. I'm going through street smarts and book smarts and survival smarts and fighting smarts. I'm like, I've got all this stuff going on, but man, we're out having a blast and having a good time and trying street food and talking to strangers and going to places we've never been before. I'll lead trips to places I've never been. I'm like, let's go. Let's go have a party. But I'm also...

Rachel Denning (01:03:07.725)
simultaneously really dialed in on things that matter. So the way that this any of these can manifest may look totally different. Even if we had the same exact scores, the way it plays out in the real world could look very different. Yep. Absolutely. That's a good one. Okay. So part of conscientiousness, one of those things is industriousness, which has to do with like how much you value how hard work, how guilty you feel when you're not meeting expectations.

how much, you know, you finish what you start, you adhere to schedules, things like that. I was 93 in industriousness and you actually came up as a 95. Yeah, baby, I beat you. Not just competition, but let's all make notice that I beat Rachel. Because Rachel can get things done. Now, this is interesting though, too, because industriousness has its faults, of course.

you may judge others harshly. You may be likely to believe that people fail due to their own mistakes and failings rather than due to external circumstances. I think in some ways that's true for both of us. We tend to have this view that if you do the work and if you take the right actions, it's like a formula. You'll produce these results. So that can be a fault sometimes.

I think that's where your compassion balances that out. But for me, I struggle a little more because I'm lower in compassion. Like, come on, just do it. Get it done, people. Did you do the work? If not, you get the rewards, buddy. And then the other aspect of conscientiousness is orderliness. I was 95 % in orderliness and you were 80%. So this is where I think, again, what we're talking about, how it can play out differently in the world. You're high in conscientiousness. You're paying attention to the details, but your orderliness...

is less, meaning your desk's not in a perfect row with all the pencils and everything in order. You're paying attention to details that matter to you, if that makes sense. Okay.

Rachel Denning (01:05:21.421)
Extraversion. This podcast is starting to sound like it's about us. It's not about us. We're just sharing our results for context. Hopefully you're all going here, OK, interesting. Who do I know that's like this? What about myself? And you're thinking through the dynamics of it all. And I hope this is helpful walking for us because it's playing out in our relationship and with our children and with people we work with. And so we're trying to just.

give you a shot. We can't go and talk about somebody else's score. So we have to talk about ours. We could talk about our kids. But I hope this has given you an idea. And as you're going along, everything's kind of clicking for you. Like, OK, that's interesting. Yeah, I feel like I'm this way or my spouse is my way. And take the test so you know. But then realize that this is what's going on. There's so much going on behind the scene that you may not be aware of. And it might be causing conflict or it might be amazing. You're like, gosh, we've always.

You know, we've always had this work out really well with our marriage. Well, this is going to be part of it. These elements here, what's at play here? What's going on behind the scenes? Exactly. Because I know for us, we learn a lot by having real life examples. And so we're just in this case using ourselves as a real life example because it just helps to solidify it or shed light on it for your own situation. OK, extraversion is the next one, which this is associated with.

Positive emotion and an enthusiastic and assertive approach to the world. Generally, if you are high in extroversion, you usually make spontaneous fun and enthusiastic partners who are motivated to seek out excitement and thrills. That's me. Okay, this is where it's funny. Because I am 18 % in extroversion. Super low score.

Rachel Denning (01:07:20.269)
I was 18 % and you were 99%. Okay, so here, this one's a perfect example of, well, and there's another one coming in neuroticism, where we're vastly different. And this has played out in, you can imagine in a marriage, 21 years, how many times something like this would play out. Right. And we've had to navigate this.

Now, M is my, what was I, 91? 99. 99, so it's the highest you can get. You can't get 100. You can't get 100. I got the highest score possible for extraversion, okay? And again, this was purposely, deliberately acquired. Well, because if you had taken this test as a 16 -year -old, you would probably have been like a 10. I would not have gotten this. You were extremely shy, timid, you couldn't even look at people in the eyes when you talked to them. Pretty, pretty.

I don't know that I had a positive outlook on life. I was like, hey, life sucks. By the time I met you, you did have a positive outlook on life. Yeah, I had created a massive transformation because I wanted to be. I wanted to be outgoing, and I wanted to be positive. I chose that and cultivated this. So I'm a 99. All the way to 99. I'm a 99 on purpose. But this is a perfect point, and I hope this is helpful for you as couples or with your kids or whatever. You can navigate this. Right.

And we have figured out ways to make this work really well in our marriage. And it hasn't been this big pain pointer recurring problem. There's no chronic issue here that we're vastly different in extroversion. Well, and I think there's some aspects of the scale where if you're vastly different than your partner, there's going to be problems. And that's why this test is helpful because it helps you.

become aware of that and why you might be having these problems. And like with our own kids, you know, we've already told them, your potential spouse is going to take this test before. So you're aware of these things, right? But some of them aren't an issue. You can be extroverted and I can be introverted and that's fine. We can make it work. Now for some people that might be a problem, but there's, you know what I'm saying? It just depends on where you're at that either it causes big problems.

Rachel Denning (01:09:43.693)
or it balances you out. So, well, here's, this is something interesting. Years ago, had we tried to do a podcast together, you'd know where you'd have been like, go jump in a lake. Yeah, there's no way. You're not putting a microphone in front of my mouth, no way. And so you've grown into that. Right. And yet still, your preferred method of communication is writing. But I'm still 18%. You love writing. Right. Right? But you're not likely.

Except, OK, I was going to say you're not likely to jump on the stage with me, except you would. Yeah, that's true. When we're presenting, you love it. But of your own? By myself, I would not get on a stage. No, not going. And so this is where it complements. Right. I'm going to jump on stage, and we're going to turn on music and dance, and Rachel will join me on stage. We're going to come along. And we've made that work together, and we've grown into it. Yeah. I'm just curious. I wonder if.

my extraversion would have been even lower if I'd taken this 10 years ago. It would have been a one. Probably. So we've worked, people. We have worked up to 18. I think you're right. Yeah. Because I know you're way more than you used to be, but 18 is still quite low. That's funny. So true. OK. The other part of extraversion is enthusiasm. OK. This.

is pretty straightforward. It's tendency to show positive emotion, whether you seek stimulation and excitement. You're generally more excitable, happy, and bubbly, laugh and smile more than others, et cetera. I don't remember what score I got, but it's gotta be high. Mine was an eight.

Rachel Denning (01:11:30.189)
That was an 8%.

In fact, this is so funny because I think generally when I do get excited, people think I'm mad. We had a conversation the other day with our daughter and her boyfriend and he was saying something later. He's like, why was your mom so mad? And I was like, she wasn't mad. She was excited. So anyways, you were in 99. Wow. Yes.

So 8 and 99 in enthusiasm. Yeah. But this is funny because when we got married, you used to tease me that I had no pulse. You're like, are you alive? Like, I got to check your pulse here to see if you're alive. Because I, again, I've probably made progress and became more enthusiastic. We're up to an 8 now. Rachel's enjoying life much more, eight times as much as when we first met. That's right. That's huge progress.

Oh, that's so funny. Anyways. Okay, next assertiveness. This is related to motivation to put your ideas forward, influence others, achieve social status. If you're higher in assertiveness, you tend to advance your own opinions, you communicate in a captivating manner, and you claim the leadership roles within your community. I am actually - Hold on, pause before you do that, because those would be good. I want to -

just say as a couple, if we were both really low in enthusiasm, we would be dead. You can all imagine what that would look like. It's just, it'd be kind of a flat line. And that's probably the case for some couples, I'm sure. And like, we're not throwing anybody on the bus, but you just have this awareness. If you're both low in enthusiasm, you, my estimation, again, I'm a 99 here, might be a little biased. My estimation, you gotta raise that, otherwise.

Rachel Denning (01:13:30.829)
Like you're just, everything's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you don't have to be a circus clown. You don't have to be bouncing off the walls and wake up every morning like I do. It's another great day to be alive. You don't have to be that, but you also don't want to be the walking dead. If both of you are...

Zombies you're gonna raise little zombies and the poor little things will just be like life sucks. Then you die You're gonna raise Eeyore so You got to be aware of that right well of where this plays out and Again like I despite my low scores. I have learned to be more. I think a motive

is one way to describe it because that is one of the things it's talking about. It's how much you show positive emotion. I've learned to show positive emotion and then show it. Right. And so I've learned to show more positive emotion even in simple ways. Like it's not the way you do it. I'm not yelling and screaming, but I'll sing or I'll hum or I'll talk about, you know, oh, I'm so grateful for this. I'm so excited for that. You know, I do, I take those things and I do them in my own way.

to show those emotions, if that makes sense. So now back to assertiveness. This one, I think, is pretty common and can be a frustrating issue for marriages and families, especially because in life, you just, you got to figure out how to get things done. Which requires assertiveness. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Rachel Denning (01:15:20.685)
Okay, so I'm actually typical in assertiveness, which means 41 % they consider typical. That's interesting. I thought you would have been higher. More assertive? Mm -hmm. Well, maybe not. Like getting things done, you're really good at just getting things done. Which I think happens because of the orderliness and conscientiousness. That's why I'm able to do that. And I think assertiveness for me, this level of assertiveness would be more of a problem if I didn't have...

people in my life like you who supported me in what I was doing. If I had to fight for what I was trying to do, this lower number of assertiveness would be a problem. Right, or if you were lower in orderliness and conscientiousness. So again, it's almost like this equation, right? And so because you're higher in those, it carries the assertiveness where...

If you were low in all of these and say you take this test and you're like, you're low in consciousness, orderliness and assertiveness, you're going to struggle getting much of anything done. It's going to be really hard for you. Now you were at 99 assertiveness. You're kind of extreme here in a few things, you know, you're just like, well, all the way up there. It's hard to even articulate, but I've been consciously hyper consciously, maybe working on myself.

since I started at 16, when I went on my own, I started reading books, I'm like, I don't want to live a sucky life. What do I need to learn so that my life doesn't suck? Like that was my driving question. And then as I bumped up against weaknesses or faults or things, I got really, I'm like, hey, what do I want to be good at? What do I want to be really strong in? And I realized there are weaknesses built into every strength, but I chose the things I wanted to excel in so I can create the life I wanted to.

And this is one of them. Yeah. And in a marriage, this could potentially be a problem, something like this, where you're extremely high in assertiveness. Now again, I don't think that this is because you're a domineering person, because it does say people who are very high in assertiveness tend to take charge. They put their own opinions forward strongly. They tend to dominate and control situations or romantic partners, right?

Rachel Denning (01:17:41.517)
I don't think you're high in assertiveness that way. It's just because you are high in confidence and competence. So I think it's that type of high assertiveness. If not, this could be a problem because I'm average or below average. You could be dominating or asserting your way of doing things all the time.

because you're higher in assertiveness. So this, I can see this being a potential problem in a lot of relationships. Right, that could be one of the inherent weaknesses in being really assertive. And I think my high assertive score is just in directing my own life. Like I just, I am going to live my life and I'm gonna do what needs to be done. I'm gonna live in a great way. But I think knowing, I remember thinking about this when we were, when our kids were really little, knowing that my,

drive could be overbearing. And so I had to temper it. Down to a 99. I scale back to 99. No, I had to temper it in its outward explosion. Yeah. That, hey, this is for me and how I lead my life, but like, it doesn't have to carry over and push that hard. Yeah. So in this case, I think your assertiveness is inner. It's not always an

It's not always outwardly demonstrated as a 99. But I guess what I want to, again, bring up for people listening is you need to be aware of this. Because if you are naturally more assertive than your spouse, you could be domineering over them without knowing it. You're just like, this is just, you know, yeah, I make the decisions. I do this because that's how I am. When your spouse might really, maybe they are resentful and you don't know it because they're way less assertive.

They don't know how to dominate or just even put forward what they want to do, their ideas, their desires and dreams. And it's getting squelched or lost inadvertently because you guys aren't aware of this. So that's something I think that's can be very - To watch out for big time. Yeah. Watch for that. And that might, you know, you might have a spouse that's low in assertiveness and kind of that low score might be -

Rachel Denning (01:20:02.573)
might look like, well, I don't care that much, so you go ahead and do it, you go ahead and do it. Which that can be complimentary and help sometimes, but it can also create an atrophy of where like, no, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, you do it, and then you have one spouse doing everything. And I can think of couples I know of and I've worked with where one spouse is carrying all the load. And that doesn't work because the one spouse will get burnt out. There's also a condition where I know people who...

are both really low in assertiveness. And so they struggle achieving or making things done, doing what needs to be done to run a family and live life. And you're like, hey, why are we struggling with this issue? And then when the test comes out, they're like, they're both low in assertiveness. That's why. That's one of the reasons why. Right. OK. Neuroticism is next. Now, initially, you had kind of a negative.

view of what neuroticism means. I still do. But it's different than what I... Maybe you still do. ...the definition I used to use. It's associated with a person's propensity towards negative emotion versus emotional stability. So neuroticism is a measure of your sensitivity to negative emotions such as pain, guilt, shame, sadness, irritability, defensive anger, fear, and anxiety.

So it's sensitivity towards it. And it's a tendency to see past, present, and future negatively. Yes. Exactly. So basically, it's essentially that if you're higher in neuroticism, you tend to look through the negative lens at things. Now, this is interesting. Before we give our scores that I want to bring up, this is true with all of these traits. But I think especially here, it can be important.

Because generally, if you took a scale of all humanity, in general, let's go with neuroticism, women are going to be more neurotic than men. Meaning they're going to have more of a propensity to have negative emotion than men are. Now, one of the reasons that Jordan Peterson points that out as being important is because we are the responsible ones for caring for the species. So we have to be more sensitive to negative emotion or bad things happening because...

Rachel Denning (01:22:28.493)
historically especially, if we didn't pay attention to those things, our infants could die. Our children could die if we didn't pay attention and say, oh my gosh, this child has a fever. They might die, let's do something about it as opposed to like, oh, no big deal, you know, they'll be fine. So I think biologically, historically, that's why women are higher in neuroticism because we are caring for the species. We have to be. And that's a strength. That's a beautiful thing. Especially when they're small. Yep.

And there's the strength that also has its inherent weakness. Absolutely. As if this thing isn't tempered and kind of guided or directed, then it's pretty easy to see everything is negative now. Well, right. And then you slip into nihilism or just a total darkness where you just dwell there. I think very common nowadays is depression and anxiety. I think a lot of women especially are...

caught in depression and anxiety because their neuroticism has gotten so high. Because you can change that. And as a society, I think we've done a really crappy job of perpetuating this and exacerbating it with the news. Almost all news is negative. And then it's spread. So now we have this generation that has higher levels, both in intensity.

and number of individuals, higher levels of depression, anxiety, just across the board and a lot of negativity. And so we're in a time period definitely where this has been conditioned into a lot of people and perpetuated and exacerbated. It's a problem. Yes, it has, although I still believe that it's also just inherent because...

it's a survival mechanism. Sure. That's its survival brain. Yeah, that's its evolutionary function if you want to go there. I like that. It's to help you survive because if you never thought anything bad was going to happen then you wouldn't protect yourself from dying. You're exactly right. So it is certainly, I think where it has been exacerbated for sure is that we're no longer protecting ourselves from saber -toothed tigers or some other horrible thing from happening.

Rachel Denning (01:24:46.989)
but we're still living in this survival mode when now we're trying to survive from the feed on social media. People saying mean things to us. Right, exactly. We're having conversations with someone we disagree with. Yeah. You're making me feel unsafe. Exactly. So we're having way more anxiety about things that are not as dangerous as they used to be. So that's where this has become a major problem. Okay, anyways, I am 56 in Neuronicism. Good job, babe. Which is...

Actually, typical or average, they say. Although, there's only one other person in our family that's higher in neurosis than me. And you are a zero. Yay! Zero for me. Zero. Which...

It's probably pretty accurate. I think I have all the negative emotion and you have none. And again, again, this, you guys, I don't want this to, this isn't about the Greg and Rachel show, but I hope it's all insightful. This again has been extremely strategic. Okay. If anything else, I keep talking about my journey because I want you to know that personality is not permanent.

Man, I was born into a situation in a family that like life motto was life sucks then you die. That was the family motto. And when I was out on my own. And you had a red -headed temper. Yeah, oh man, I had a fierce temper and when I was out on my own, life did suck. And sometimes I wanted to die. And I thought just everyone's a rotten turd. Like you can't trust anyone. They'll take advantage of you as soon as they get a chance. Oh man.

There were these time periods where I was like, this is horrible. Life is horrible. Existence is horrible. What's the point? Right? So I was in that dark hole, but as I started to grow, I realized for myself, I'm like, I don't want anything to do with that. Now I'm not naive about the darkness and I'm not Pollyanna. Well, actually Pollyanna gets a bad rep. I think that's a great book and she's awesome. I think Pollyanna is awesome. And I think putting on...

Rachel Denning (01:27:06.125)
That lens of seeing the good and looking for the good in bad things can be a fantastic thing. Again, the inherent weakness there would be naivete, right? Where you're just kind of clueless and like, oh, nothing's bad and nobody's bad and everything's good. Nothing bad will ever happen to us. That's naive and dangerous. But I wanted to see the positive outlook. I wanted to turn down my sensitivity to negative emotions.

And it's not that you don't feel negative emotion, but I think you feel it when it's... It's rare. When it's relevant or important. Like when your brother died, you cried. I felt the full weight of it. Yeah, you were extremely grief -stricken, but that was an appropriate response. Like that is an appropriate response to the death of your brother would be that kind of emotion. So...

Being low in neuroticism doesn't mean you don't have negative emotion. It just means you're going to feel it when it's appropriate, where I might cry over a made up sad thing in my mind. Or that's not going to happen for you. You're not going to be crying over something you think of in your mind. I think another potential danger here is some people might kind of numb. They check out. And so they don't feel.

feel very much. That could be also an inherent weakness in a very low score. And a very high score, and I've had clients score 99. That's the highest score. In a very high score, they're going to see everything in their past, everything in their present, and everything in their future is negative. Which is essentially hard. Yeah, you're thinking of the worst case scenario all the time. And you're looking back, for example, into your past, and what you think of is the bad things that happen.

and something good happened and you say, well, yeah, but I did stub my toe on the way in and it really hurt the whole concert. Even though concert was great, my toe was killing me. But you're just looking for the negativity. And like, yeah, everything's good, but there's no way this can last. And so it puts a dark cloud on your life if you're not careful. Right, which again, I think we balance each other out in this and we've had this conversation many times because as I'm writing my memoir right now,

Rachel Denning (01:29:28.781)
I don't know, I keep writing these. I wrote the prologue to my memoir, which is on my website right now, RachelDenning .com. You should all go read it. And Greg read it and he was like, that is so depressing. Like, babe, our life story is amazing. Our life is so amazing. We've had all these amazing experiences. We've done all that. I'm like, yes, you are right. You write about the worst day you had and like the next day everything was better.

But for me, well, for one thing, obviously, you know, a story is always better when it includes the light and dark, when it includes the good and bad. So obviously that's why it's in there. So it's going to include you and me. Exactly. But the other thing is to, yes, I had and I have more of the tendency to, even with our amazing life, which I can't deny has been absolutely incredible, I tend to remember.

the negative things or you'll be like, what? I don't remember that. I'm like, don't you remember we had no money and you're like, really? You know, where you tend to remember just the positive things. Now, that's not necessarily bad or wrong. It's just very different and our awareness of it has helped us to understand and navigate these situations instead of like, no, you're wrong. It wasn't like that. It's just like, oh, well, this was my view. And it plays out.

This scenario, our difference here plays out a lot. And you're right, it's almost like I just, well yeah, that was a really bad day. Well, I'm not even dwelling on it, remember, like, see ya. I'm like, that month was amazing, that was the coolest adventure ever. And you're like, don't you remember how we got there? I'm like, oh yeah, that was tough. Okay, but the thing was amazing. And that's really how I've programmed my brain to function. So this will play out, you guys. It's like this ongoing joke we have where Greg's like.

having a baby that's just like one day, you know? And I'm like, no, it's not one day, okay? It's like 18 months of misery before and after. Anyways. I love it. Okay. But again, having this understanding really helps you out because when we are having these conversations, it's easy for us to have this vocabulary and be like, well, remember, hon, I am a 56 in neuroticism, you know? So now you understand where I'm coming from.

Rachel Denning (01:31:54.061)
and why I see it differently than you. It's not that you're right and I'm wrong or vice versa. We see things differently because we are different on this scale. So super. And neither one of us and none of you are stuck where you are. If you don't like it, if it's not serving you, you can work on making adjustments. There are strategies and systems and tools for every one of these things. Well, and that being said, again, I wouldn't be surprised if I was higher.

in neuroticism because you have certainly tempered me if you were higher and beforehand yeah yeah right oh I totally agree exactly okay um I think this is the last one the last section withdrawal oh wait sorry wrong this is part of neuroticism yep

part of neuroticism is withdrawal, which is your tendency to experience negative emotions. So now the difference between neuroticism itself and withdrawal is essentially that...

Rachel Denning (01:33:03.789)
It's part of it. Yeah, it's a part of it, but I'm trying to, you know, I always like to separate it out. Like how is it more, how is it nuanced between the two? Where the neuroticism itself, it's like your outlook on life, right? Your tendency to have or to think in a positive way or to view things in a more positive way.

But the withdrawal aspect of it is like how much you are actually feeling or experiencing negative emotions. Does that make sense? I think that's the main difference. So it's like if you have sadness, doubt, worry, or you tend to be calm or anxious to withdraw from an uncertain or unexpected situation. Okay, so because of your negative emotion, you're withdrawn.

That's withdrawal, right? You're having negative emotion. And so you're withdrawing from the interaction, the family life, the experiences, right? So this is playing out in your life because you are interacting. You're not engaging with the family because you feel negative emotion. Where like for you, I think especially,

even if you feel negative emotion, you're still able to engage in a positive way. Like I, that's definitely something you're great at. Cause no matter what you're feeling, you're able to switch that and still engage positively with, depending on what the situation calls for. It's not that you do that all the time. You'll withdraw when you need to, to go think about something or solve a problem or whatever. But if you need to be engaged, you'll be engaged. Where I think if you're, I think if you're, um,

higher in withdrawal, you don't have that same ability. Like you're feeling the negative emotion. It's more intense. That's one of the things that says you feel it more intensely. And so you avoid uncertainty or anxiety provoking situations, right? And this one is where it begins to really play out in behaviors. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, we've seen this before in couples and in family relationships that...

Rachel Denning (01:35:27.693)
if you're higher in this neuroticism and especially if you're higher in the withdrawal as well, because you could be high in neuroticism and be lower in withdrawal and still engage or whatever, but it just starts to create this cycle of disengagement. Yes. Well, and pain and frustration and hurt and it'll start to snowball. I have clients who've been high in neuroticism and high in withdrawal and man, that just, everything feels like a dark cloud and it starts to wreak havoc on your life.

Well, because the irony is the more you withdraw because of your negative emotion, the more the negative emotion remains. Where if you engage in the world and you do something to try and change that state, like that's how you change your state. That's how you get more positive emotion is by engaging in things that are going to bring those positive emotions, which isn't going to happen naturally unless you're intentional about it. So I was a 57 in withdrawal, which is...

pretty much matches up with my neuroticism score and you are a zero. Got another zero. So that might have been a little confusing, but I think hopefully that clarifies it a little bit of the difference between it. And then finally, the last part of neuroticism is volatility, which is kind of just the mood swings essentially, like your emotional stability.

Are you gonna have predictable moods with normal variations? Like you should have variation in your emotions. You're not just gonna be, even you, you're not just one stable emotion the entire day. You have ups and downs, but your range of up and down is generally.

narrower than most people's. Your high is high, but your lows aren't that low unless they need to be. You're not, you know, swinging pendulum. You're not a swinging pendulum. I'm more of a pendulum than you are. I don't, I don't, this is fun because I had forgotten all my scores. You're like, wow. I was a 53, which is average, and you are a one. I'm up from zero. You're up from zero. Yeah.

Rachel Denning (01:37:40.493)
Which means I have a pulse. So yeah. Some feelings. Well, it says you're very stable and predictable in your moods, which is true. Your mood is generally positive. I expect that all the time. Our family expects that all the time. In fact, if you're ever not positive. Meaning I'm pensive about something. I'm sitting in a corner thinking about some idea. What's wrong? What's going on? Are you OK, Dad? All the time. Dad, what's wrong? Are you OK? I'm like, what? You look so upset. You look sad.

I was just thinking about a book. Yeah. It does say they very rarely express their frustration, disappointment, irritability, and appear reasonable when they do so. I would say that's true. I don't think that you don't express those things you do, but it's a fairly reasonable expression of it. OK. Last one. This is long. I know. But hopefully it's so valuable. It's.

insightful because I know doing this process has been extremely insightful for us and that's why we're going through it because I think it's good to go through. Just a quick thought before you go to the next one. If a couple, like one of you is really high in volatility, man that's going to be tough. Yes, it is. And then if both of you are really high, wow that's going to be crazy mood swings and fights and deep depressions. I mean you're going to be all over the place and so...

You're going to want to temper that and work through that. I think in withdrawal, some of these, my observation is if you're high in withdrawal, if you're high in neuroticism, if you're high in volatility, you deliberately and strategically want to pull those back and just work on bringing those way back into a place where there's a lot more. It just makes it easier. Why make life harder than it is on yourself?

And there's things you could practice and work on. You can alter your personality. You're not stuck as you are. Right. Yeah. And I do want to emphasize that you want to be intentional about these things, especially ones like those. Same even with something like agreeableness. If you are very high in agreeableness, you do want to do something about that because that can be a negative. And I

Rachel Denning (01:40:01.261)
I guess what I'd want to say in general, let's not go off Greg Denning's scores here, I think in general, if you're one way or the other extremely, that could be a problem.

Rachel Denning (01:40:14.701)
your case is interesting and unique that yours are deliberately um chosen and cultivated and developed yeah developed and again i think like we mentioned before there is a lot of complexity here you're none of us is this are these things in every situation in every circumstance at home

we might be different than we are out in the world. And that's true with you as well. And so your score probably isn't a 99 all the time in every situation. You just have this ability to go to that level as required or necessary, I think. It's the ability to be there when you need to be there, if that makes sense. Because yes, you are an extreme personality, but it's also in a balanced way.

that's not unhealthy, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Anyways, openness to experience, which means your person's interest in a person's interest in novelty, art, literature, abstract thinking, philosophy, as well as a sensitivity to aesthetic emotions and beauty. Oh, I like all that. Yeah. So I was a 75 % in openness to experience and you were a 99 % openness to experience.

Oh, well, the other thing I wanted to say too, because you were talking about this with going through this, I've skipped so much of this. Like there are paragraphs and paragraphs on every single one of these that obviously we're not going to go through because that would just take too long. But this is so powerful to do this with your spouse, to go through it and be like, yeah, well, I'm high in volatility, which means these things. That's good for both of you to know.

Rachel Denning (01:42:16.333)
And to have a framework and to have this vocabulary that you can share together to talk about what's going on. Because one of the best ways to improve things in yourself and in your relationship is to be able to have the words to articulate what is happening. One of the worst things that you can do is to go through all of life, never naming what's happening to you. Never being able to say, this is what's going on. This is what's happening in our marriage. This is what's happening with me.

As soon as you can find the words, it's like suddenly makes the problem so much easier to solve once you know what you're dealing with, right? So it's just so powerful to be able to put words to what's happening to you so you can then come up with solutions. Okay, so you're 99. This includes intellect, which again is not how smart you are.

but it's your interest in ideas and abstract concepts. You tend to be more curious, verbally adept, richer vocabulary, more interested in learning, while those who are lower in intellect tend to be less curious, less verbally adept, less interested in learning. I was an 86 in intellect and you were a 97. I'm not so sure. Maybe I should be the 97. Sorry. Oh, man. That's awesome.

Again, those are things we've worked on. Oh, absolutely. We've certainly worked on those things. I would have had vastly different scores. Absolutely. Both of us. 20 years ago. This is who I want to be, and this is how I want to live, and this is the best version of myself. And so I lean into those things across all of these things. I'm clear. I'm crystal clear about the kind of man I want to be. And so I work on that deliberately, intentionally, strategically, day in and day out. I have to.

plans and habits and routines and rituals and patterns that I follow to get to these places. Right. I think the reason my score is lower on intellect is because I marked I didn't like poetry because I have a hard time with poetry. Oh, that got you, babe. It's your struggle with poetry. That's it. Oh, I love poetry. Poetry is difficult, but it is profound. The poets are like prophets, man.

Rachel Denning (01:44:42.445)
And Shakespeare. I just have a hard time with Shakespeare. I love Shakespeare. That's why. That's what got you a little score, babe. OK, last one. Never vote against William Shakespeare. Exactly. OK, last one is openness, which is. Wait, before you go on, sorry. Every time you start a new one, I keep thinking, OK, how does this play out? If you're both as a couple or your kids, whatever, they're super low in openness to experience, that can create problems.

and can create a dull life for one. So as you go through each of these, see where you're at, and maybe one of you is really high, like you just want to experience life, and the other one's like, no, I don't care. I just want to sit here in my bedroom. That's going to be a challenge. And so you're going to have to work through those things. And in all of these, my advice always is lean towards the better. So if I'm kind of sloppy. Towards the higher ground. Towards the higher ground. Yeah, higher ground. That's the way to say it.

So let's say I'm kind of sloppy, disorderly, a little chaotic and whatever, and Rachel's more orderly and more clean and organized. Which again, was the case with our marriage. I pulled you towards those things. And there's a source of conflict there. I'm like, she wants it all the way. I'm like, I don't care, babe. It doesn't matter. Well, what should we do? I feel strongly about, I don't care. It doesn't matter that much. She feels strongly like it does matter. Let's do it. Well, let's go towards higher ground.

If she wants our bed to be made super nice and look great and everything to be ordered, okay, let's go there. Because it's higher ground. Now, it can go too far, but if - Yeah, where it has to be absolutely perfect. One of you is like, no, health matters. Let's eat healthier and feed our children healthier. And the other parent's like, it doesn't matter. Just enjoy life. We eat snacks, whatever. If you both are trying to hold your ground, well, go to the higher ground. Eat healthier.

You made it sound like snacks are a bad thing. What you mean is like junk food. Junk food is what I meant exactly. Because we snack often. But if you're, if one of you is like junk food is what makes life happy and the other one's like no, kale chips and seaweed make life happy. No way. They do not. Okay, I just had to throw out some extremes. But go to higher ground. I hate kale chips, Enzi. I'm not going to that higher ground. I don't think it's higher.

Rachel Denning (01:47:07.917)
That's the real point. Okay, openness. So this is people who are higher in the aspect of openness tend to be artistic, creative, sensitive to beauty. I was a 51 % which is average and you are 97.

Rachel Denning (01:47:29.005)
I don't know what to say about that. I was going to congratulate your mediocrity. Wow. Thank you. My mediocrity, huh? Yeah, that one I don't know. I'm sensitive to beauty, I think. And I feel like I'm actually artistic and creative, but...

Rachel Denning (01:47:57.037)
Wow. Okay. I think, I think in this, um, this instance.

you feel like, like you love to create and every single day you're creating. Now that's not necessarily like you're painting pictures and things like that. You're writing and you're creating content and videos and things like that. And so. And I've chosen to be reachable, teachable and touchable is how I call it. Like I let things affect me and the beauty of a flower and a sunset and the...

the intricacies of a bug just... Yeah, you certainly are more that way than I am for sure. I love this whole world and its workings and the body and how everything works. Yeah. That's just so cool. Where I'm kind of like, yeah, that's great, but let's make a plan here. I'm conscious, conscientious here and orderly. Yeah. Okay. I hope you guys, this has been helpful. It was long.

It was about us because we're the only ones we can talk about this openly. Right. And hopefully that's insightful for you. If you want us to talk about you, send us your scores. Send us your scores, we'll do a podcast on you. No, just kidding. Maybe, kind of. That might be really fun, actually. So actually, no, if you do do it and you're back like, hey, we're totally different. We'll keep you anonymous. What?

What can we do? How can we improve this? That might be fun to do some of those podcasts. But anyways, it's not permanent. It's not fixed. You focus on being your best self. See where the differences might cause chronic conflict and work on it. Like you can work through these things and you see some of these scores Rachel and I are very, very different. And that's okay. We still have a legitimately extraordinary marriage and we've learned to work together and work around those things. So it's totally possible. And if you're...

Rachel Denning (01:50:06.477)
both weak in a certain area, then... That awareness is powerful. And the... Knowing that. We've got to set up some systems to compensate for our combined weakness here. Yeah. Love this stuff. Okay. Love you guys. Thanks for listening. This has been a long one. You guys are awesome. Love you. Reach out for it.