#22 - Building Forensics 101: The Science of Healthy Homes with Dr. Tim Law

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Hello and welcome to the
Building Psychology Party where

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we talk about better buildings
to live and breathe in.

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My name is Jess Kismet, and
today I am joined by Doctor Tim

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Law.
Doctor Law is a building

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scientist and architectural
forensic investigator with a

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unique gift for translating
complex technical building

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science challenges into plain
language and practical

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solutions.
His career has spanned

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continents and disciplines from
designing buildings to reverse

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engineering why they fail.
He's contributed to many key

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publications on condensation in
residential buildings, thermal

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comfort in an energy constrained
world, and how changes to the

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National Construction Code are
or aren't helping us build

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healthier homes.
Tim is perhaps best known for

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his work on mold and moisture,
where he regularly reminds us

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that mold is the symptom and not
the 'cause.

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He's consulted across the
country on building failures,

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taught at universities, worked
with government bodies, and is

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widely respected for his
forensic mindset and commitment

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to better building outcomes.
Doctor Tim Law, thank you so

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much for your time.
Thank you just for having me

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here and thanks for doing this
psychology podcast.

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I think you're filling a very
important gap where we we need

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to break down this concepts for
for the layperson.

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So thank you.
It's my pleasure.

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I'm having so much fun and every
person I talk to I learned

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something new and this
conversation is going to be no

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exception.
I know it.

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So let's let's start you your,
your professional journey

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through architecture building
science model conversation has

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been fascinating and thorough.
So could you please give us a

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little bit of a background where
how you got here and what drew

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you to this, to this
intersection of construction and

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building science?
Yeah, I, I guess I've always

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been a very technical kind of
person.

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So when I looked at design, I've
always been looking at how it

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functions and also how it
performs.

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Probably what got me
disappointed along the way is

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that architecture increasingly
became more about the aesthetic

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and less about its performance.
But still that, that, that

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didn't stop me.
I, I found some really good

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mates at the University of
Tasmania.

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And now we, we had our fun
together geeking out and we, we,

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we kind of laughed that we were
dying breed of architectural

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scientists that there was a time
that this was actually a thing,

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actually still is a thing.
But there was a time of Zoc lay

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where he was looking at
bioclimatic design.

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And so there's been some 3
decades ago or especially four

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or five decades actually, I
correct myself, but it has, has

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fallen on a hard time.
So I, I do appreciate that

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people like yourself, just,
you're, you're keeping this at a

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forefront that there, there is
more to design.

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It is not just the aesthetics or
the appearance.

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There is a technical component
that goes along with it.

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And when we get things wrong, it
can be very serious.

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So my interest in this really
started soon after my PhD.

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My PhD was in the area of
looking at thermal comfort and

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energy constrained will.
And you certainly have done your

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research.
But when I was doing my

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research, I mean, a lot of PhD
candidates reach this point and

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we ask ourselves a really
important question.

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So what you know, it's like you
reach the point of an

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existential crisis and you ask
yourself, do I really need to

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existentialize my research?
Because nobody's in search,

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nobody's interested in it
because what if I get thermal

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comfort wrong?
What is the worst that happens?

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Well, you'll be uncomfortable.
You won't be sick.

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You will be uncomfortable, but
it's not going to be to the

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point you get hypothermia or
hypothermia.

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You're not going to perturb your
core temperature.

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You're just going to be
uncomfortable.

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What if I get my energy
constraints wrong?

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Well, thank you.
Pay a bit more for your bill.

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And, and in a country like
Australia where we have that

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much natural resource, it's,
it's highly an issue.

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But when I came across this
issue that as we were making

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buildings more energy efficient,
we were also creating this

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rather unwitting unintended
consequence of making them less

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healthy.
Because in line with making them

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more energy efficient, we
created a condensation problem.

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And lo and behold, Australia is
not alone in this journey.

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There are countries 4 decades
ahead of us that dealt dealt

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with the energy crisis of the
1970s.

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Australia only implemented
energy efficiency international

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construction code for houses in
2003.

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So we were a fairly late Comer
at this.

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And it was only sometime in 2010
onwards that we went into net

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host six stars. 6 stars was when
we started to see the problem a

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lot more significantly and and
we are, we are repeating the

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same problems, the same signs
that other countries had had

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dealt with when they meet
buildings more energy efficient,

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they noticed a condensation
problem and with the

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condensation problem they had
the more problem and with the

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more problem there was a health
problem.

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I don't think we are, we are
properly weighing off the issues

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quite clearly as we are looking
at the issue of energy

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efficiency if it comes along
with the consequence of it being

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less healthy.
We actually need to track this

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very carefully and have a very
sophisticated, nuanced approach

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that allows us to move both in
tandem or to have at least

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enough information to make the
right decisions if we have to

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give up one in place of another.
I couldn't agree with you more.

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The health, the health aspect of
what we do is it is such a

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strong driver for me as well.
And I know a lot of people have

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come into the building biology
side of this industry, come at

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it from a health perspective as
well.

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So they, they, a lot of them
have had mild illness and they

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come at it from a personal, they
have a personal reason to drive

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this.
And when I when I started my

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building biology studies and
found out about chronic

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inflammatory response syndrome,
I could not believe I hadn't

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heard of it before.
Why is this not more widely

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talked about?
If the statistics say 25% of us

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are affected by mould illness or
biotoxins in mould, how is that

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not more widely understood and
talked about?

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You know, I'd been in the
industry 1012 years before I

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even came across it.
Yeah.

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And something that you find
particularly in the health

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space, rather unfortunately, a
number of doctors that I've

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spoken to have a bit of a
complex that what they don't

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know is not very important or
doesn't exist.

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So when I was pushing for
condensation research, I, one of

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my first part of calls was to
speak to other medical

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researchers at, I wouldn't name
it university, but the response

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I got was that they are not
interested in syndrome theories.

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So CIRS stands for Chronic
Inflammatory Response syndrome.

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And, and they looked at it and
said, Oh no, you know what, this

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thing has got an evangelistic
edge.

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And I'm just thinking, of
course, people finally have

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found something that explains a
lot of things.

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Surely they'd be quite
enthusiastic about it, but no,

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main mainstream medical
researchers weren't interested

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in touching it.
So yeah, I unfortunately, I, I

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think the issue is that there is
an establishment that you are

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working against by trying to
raise this issue.

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And, and in the sense of Richard
Shoemaker, who coined term CRS,

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he has done a significant amount
of research.

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It was his research that we were
working on when we were

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successful in the NHMRC grant,
that's a National Health Medical

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Research Council grant that came
as a result of this biotoxin

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inquiry into this federal
parliamentary inquiry into

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biotoxin illness.
It was really at that point that

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we looked at this research a lot
more thoroughly.

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And one of the things that we
were unfortunately let down a

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little by was that I don't
understand why British Shoemaker

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doesn't publish in the more
reputable journals.

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Maybe they just wouldn't accept
that.

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It's the same kind of gatekeeper
mentality.

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So it has always pushed this
condition to be at the fringes.

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Yeah.
So, yes, by a long way of

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explaining it, I I think, I
think you are swimming against

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the tide by dealing with this
matter.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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I'll.
Just keep swimming.

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Good on you.
So as you mentioned, we really

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struggle with improved energy
efficiency and then the the

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knock on effect of of unhealthy
buildings and that so that that

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intersection between energy
efficiency, air tightness and

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ventilation.
So this is a question I ask lots

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of people for their for their
input on, and I'm going to ask

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you as well.
How do you think we can strike

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the balance between air
tightness and ventilation?

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If if the end goal is health,
then it's going to be a very

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climate specific and material
specific kind of an answer.

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So yes, I'm if you're not in a
particular rush, let's let's go

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through the various
possibilities.

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So let's go up north.
If you're in, in, in a hot,

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humid kind of a climate, what
you're dealing with is that the,

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the ambient conditions are such
that you would be in a region

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where mode is likely to grow on
moisture sensitive materials.

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If you avoid moisture sensitive
materials, you're in good place.

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But if you are building with
plasterboard, gypsum plaster has

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got starch additives to allow it
to bind and also to allow it to

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stick to the paper phase.
So you're dealing with starch

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and cellulose.
Those those are basically pre

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digested fiber and for mold,
that means that's going to be

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the the their favorite source of
food once the humidity is

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correct.
So in a hot humid kind of a

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tropics, ventilation does not
help you if you're working with

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this kind of materials.
If if you're dealing with

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regular plasterboard, the
buildings without exception

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would have to be air
conditioned.

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If if you want to deal with this
and for air conditioning to

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work, naturally you are trying
to cool the air and therefore

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the less air ingress we have
then the more stably we can

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control those temperatures.
The less how humid air ingress.

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Right, correct, correct.
Exactly because that is exactly

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what you're trying to condition.
You're trying to remove the

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moisture from from the air, so
in this case I would say that

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ventilation works against you in
a hot, humid climate.

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Natural ventilation.
Natural ventilation.

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Natural ventilation, yes.
Yeah, because the ambient air is

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is very humid, yes.
Now if you go to the other

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extreme, let's say we go down
South to Tasmania or you're

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you're in, you're in SA.
I am, yes.

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Yeah.
So yeah, this really cool

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climates during winter, the air
has cooled to a point that it is

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really dry.
The colder the air gets, the

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less moisture it can hold.
So a lot of the air is already

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rung out by forming due on on
all the external surfaces so

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that that kind of air if you
were to bring it indoors becomes

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a really dry air once you warm
it up.

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So it's not going to be as much
of A health problem as it is

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going to be an energy problem
because and then once again,

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depends on how you deal with the
aim of achieving thermal

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comfort.
The main technology we use is

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air conditioners and heat pumps.
So what you're doing is that you

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are warming or cooling the air
as a way of delivering comfort

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to people.
The issue with that is, well, if

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you are dealing with warming
air, then you need then air

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becomes a very valuable
commodity.

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Each time we replace that with
external ventilation, we've got

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to put in the effort to warm it
up again.

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It's different if you use a
different kind of method.

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Let's say if you were at a
really old building and it was

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made of stone and you had a
fireplace.

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You lit the fire.
The fire would warm up all the

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surfaces and then all the
surfaces, after it's been warmed

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up, it becomes a radiant heat.
If you've got radiant heat, then

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ventilation doesn't make a
difference, see, because the,

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the, the energy is coming to you
by the radiation of the various

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surfaces.
So yes, for, for, for the

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majority of the cases, it would
also once again make sense if

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you were to try to make
buildings more airtight.

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But now that's a bit of other
problem.

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We don't balance the pressure in
our buildings.

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And now air flows where it is
higher pressure to lower

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pressure.
What we typically have in homes,

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for example, is that we have
extraction.

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It could be the bathroom, it
could be the cooking.

231
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:49,320
We are extracting air.
Yeah.

232
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,080
As we extract air, we create a
negative pressure zone within

233
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:55,560
the house.
And so it tries to pull in air

234
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:58,760
from the outside to balance.
So unless you have a very

235
00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,960
airtight space, it's going to be
bringing in air in a way that is

236
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,840
not controlled.
Sometimes it is not an issue.

237
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,840
Sometimes if the air path goes
through areas where where which

238
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,040
is prone to have condensation
and mold that you're bringing in

239
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,400
moldy air into the space.
So yeah, that that, that, that

240
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,960
creates a series of other
problems as well.

241
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,000
Yeah.
And if you are in somewhere,

242
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,400
let's say in Brisbane or Sydney,
then you have a balance of kind

243
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,880
of equally warm or cool weather,
the same number of degree

244
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,160
heating and degree cooling days
and you've got to deal with

245
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,360
vapor flow now in two
directions.

246
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,960
So yeah, it's not going to be
always a straightforward

247
00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,240
solution.
I think we actually need a very

248
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,800
sophisticated way of monitoring
the outdoor conditions in terms

249
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:48,920
of its.
If I were to take one measure of

250
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,040
say its dew point, let's measure
just one, one parameter, the dew

251
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,360
point of the outside and, and,
and decide if that dew point is

252
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,400
correct to bring that air
indoors.

253
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,080
If it's OK to bring it indoors,
then knock yourself out,

254
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,840
ventilate the place.
If it is not, then we've got to

255
00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,880
keep the inside inside and the
outside outside.

256
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,520
So you talk about the dew point
of the outside.

257
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,280
When you say measure the dew
point, what do you mean where?

258
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:20,360
Yeah.
We, we typically when we were to

259
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,560
measure the conditions of air,
we'll measure things like the

260
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:28,640
temperature and the humidity.
Just just if electronic sensors,

261
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,200
before we had electronic
sensors, what we did was that we

262
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,000
had this thing called a sling
thermometer.

263
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,760
It had, it had two thermometers
inside there, one and then you

264
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:43,800
swing it around SO1 bulb, one
bulb swings around dry and the

265
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,680
other one has got a wet Wick on
it.

266
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,280
So the wet Wick would cool the
bulb.

267
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,120
So you get 2 temperatures.
One is called the dry bulb.

268
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:52,800
Wet bulb and dry bulb.
Exactly.

269
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:54,840
That's very it comes from dry
bulb and wet bulb.

270
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,160
So the wet bulb would typically
read lower than the dry bulb

271
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,200
because of the evaporative
cooling effect.

272
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,800
Unless for example you reach
saturation point and the air

273
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,600
cannot hold any more moisture,
it doesn't evaporate.

274
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,760
That is the only time where dry
bulb and wet bulb will read the

275
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,480
same temperature, and that is
your dew point temperature.

276
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,560
So the dew point temperature is
really the point at which air at

277
00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,400
a certain temperature cannot
hold any more moisture.

278
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:26,920
Yes.
Yes.

279
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,040
So when you say what at which
you're measuring that outdoors

280
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,840
or indoors?
So a dew point happens on a

281
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,560
surface, right?
Dew point, yes, that's the

282
00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,640
phenomenon of it condensing.
But with the temperature,

283
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:48,280
humidity or dry pop and wet pop,
we can look up what is the dew

284
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,680
point temperature.
That means the temperature at

285
00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,360
which air of that condition is
going to condense.

286
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,840
OK.
So you would you would take the

287
00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:00,440
relative humidity and the
temperature of outdoor air and

288
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,360
determine the deer point of that
air is this therefore it should

289
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,600
stay outside.
Yes, exactly.

290
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,680
So if the, so the.
Internal surfaces are likely to

291
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,640
be this temperature and
therefore we don't want that air

292
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:12,320
inside, so it has to stay
outside.

293
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:13,840
Exactly.
Is that what you're saying?

294
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,040
OK, understood.
Yep.

295
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,160
And and that's why it is, it is
very climate specific, it is

296
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,880
material specific.
There's, there's not going to be

297
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,080
a straightforward solution.
Ventilation often helps, but it

298
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,840
doesn't always help.
I think that's that's what I

299
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,560
want to bring across.
That's what you're saying, Yeah.

300
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,880
It it depends.
It depends.

301
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:32,600
Just like everything.
It depends.

302
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,480
That's that's always the correct
answer.

303
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:35,880
It always starts with.
It depends.

304
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:43,400
Oh my goodness.
So up in Queensland, up in the

305
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,080
hot humid climates, we want to
keep the hot humid air outside.

306
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,400
The vapor pressure is coming
through the wall from outside to

307
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,440
inside.
In colder climates, it's more

308
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:54,520
likely to be warmer and more
humid inside.

309
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,480
And we want to stop that.
We want to, we want to ideally

310
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,960
ventilate that.
So you're saying ventilation in

311
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,200
colder climates is probably more
useful than it is in warmer

312
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,599
climates?
If the issue is about measuring

313
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:13,319
condensation and mold, yes, it's
going to be more useful in in

314
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,640
cool climates by virtue of cold
air being dry.

315
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,920
Yes, yes, and in in hot humid
climates the better idea is to

316
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,000
air conditioning and keep the
air out.

317
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:24,880
Keep the air.
Exactly.

318
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,880
Air conditioned to bring that to
bring that internal temperature

319
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,880
down to dry out the air.
OK.

320
00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,560
And is there a level, this is
the, you know, the question we

321
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,320
all ask, is there a level a
blower door test score that you

322
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,680
would say you need to ventilate
this or you need to, you know,

323
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,280
but based on that that
discussion, it depends.

324
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,440
But you know, everyone wants to
know, particularly because I

325
00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,560
work in the Southern States and
it's it we do rely on on

326
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,680
ventilation, whether it's
mechanical or or manual here we

327
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,160
do rely on external air coming
in to reduce our mould risk.

328
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,400
So at what point is there a
point that you would say or not?

329
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:12,360
Once again, I don't know whether
measuring by air changes per

330
00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:15,120
hour at 50 pascals is the
correct measure.

331
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,240
Let me explain that I understand
that for Passive House that is

332
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,240
one of the criteria you could
get below .6 air change hours at

333
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,600
50 Pascals, the average
Australian house.

334
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,840
In an earlier study, this was by
CSIRO by by Michael Ambrose some

335
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,440
years ago, not not the latest
one when you did some years ago,

336
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:35,760
I think we were looking at 10 to
14 air change hours, air changes

337
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,560
per hour.
That is probably at a point that

338
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,680
you don't need to to do anything
about it.

339
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,120
So somewhere between 10 and .6.
We've got to find that the magic

340
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,120
balancing point.
The the reason I don't think

341
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:55,280
that it is the most useful
metric is because it also

342
00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,520
depends on how how many other
pollutants you are dealing with

343
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,040
in a space.
So one of the common measures

344
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,920
that we're using these days is
to measure carbon dioxide and

345
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,520
that that that is an indicator
of the air quality.

346
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,840
It is not in itself an issue of
air quality.

347
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:18,440
Let me explain that.
Many people would use, say, a

348
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,440
criteria or say either 1000 PPM
or 1000 above ambient as the

349
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:27,280
criteria to determine whether it
is, it requires more, more fresh

350
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,760
air makeup.
But that's only using carbon

351
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,560
dioxide as a proxy.
Carbon dioxide at those levels

352
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,760
is not in itself pollutant.
In submarines, when they're

353
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:43,640
doing tests, they're looking at
effects above 5000 PPM for it.

354
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,400
It it becomes a health issue.
So quite often we're using CO2

355
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000
as a proxy.
But as a proxy for what the the

356
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,320
real issue, the most commonly
known one would be a particulate

357
00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,040
matter or PM 2.52.5 being the
the dimension of that

358
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:04,680
particulate about 5 micrometers.
So PM 2.5 would be one of them,

359
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,360
PM 10 is the other.
They're all be volatile organic

360
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,720
compounds, or VOC's.
Those are the things that we

361
00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,840
actually should be measuring
more directly.

362
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,600
It's just that it is more
complicated and more

363
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:20,320
sophisticated to measure that we
end up using CO2 as a as a proxy

364
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,360
for that.
So back to the question, when do

365
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,320
we need more makeup air that
that depends on the number of

366
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,200
occupants and, and and which
indoor air quality parameter we

367
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,440
are looking at.
Now, if you were to wrangle my

368
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,200
arm and come up with a number,
I'd say anything below five will

369
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,920
be something, but you need to
start looking at this quite

370
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,440
seriously.
Below 2, I'm pretty sure you're

371
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,760
going to need some kind of
makeup air.

372
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,760
And by makeup air you mean
outdoor air coming in for those

373
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,160
who are not engineer engineer
minded.

374
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:54,520
Yeah.
I have to clarify that one.

375
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,360
Yeah, that's a good point.
Yes, I, I do mean by that

376
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:06,640
external fresh air, although
with, with the rise of awareness

377
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,640
of this issues, I think the new
standards we're looking at at

378
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,720
like for example ashtray 241,
we're no longer looking at

379
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,320
external air as fresh air.
We are looking at equivalent

380
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,520
clean air.
So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's

381
00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,000
a, it's a bit more nuanced.
Yeah.

382
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,480
So yeah, equivalent clean air
deals with the particulate

383
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,760
matter.
It doesn't deal with the gaseous

384
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,960
contaminants so.
Gaseous.

385
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,680
Yeah.
The gases, yeah.

386
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,040
So the gas gaseous, yeah.
So things that are volatile,

387
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,200
organic compounds, the odors and
so forth, it's not quite

388
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,360
captured in the concept of
equivalent clean air yet.

389
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,200
So we're still trying to make
these things up for the bulk of

390
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,240
Australia.
Outdoor air is clean except

391
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,880
during the Bush fire, except
when your neighbors are putting

392
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,720
out woods, fire smoke or in
doing a massive BBQ or something

393
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,720
like that.
But but generally outdoor air is

394
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,320
generally clean.
Generally clean, yeah, Yeah.

395
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,600
OK.
All right, I think we covered

396
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,960
that sufficiently, I think.
All right, let's go to the next

397
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,720
question.
In your work, you are known are

398
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,360
known to say that mild is a
symptom, not the cause.

399
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,640
So could you please explain what
you mean by that and what people

400
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,680
are getting wrong when tackling
mould issues?

401
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,280
Yeah, that's right.
This is a, this is a nice big

402
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,320
loaded question.
So let's let's see where I can

403
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,880
where I can start from to to to
break down all this academic

404
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,960
gristle with.
Now mood is a problem in itself,

405
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:45,120
but it is not the only problem.
Mode is a really good indicator

406
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:52,120
because it is quite visible and
it starts germinating and

407
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:58,280
growing before the other
microbes that demand more water.

408
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,200
So the the metric that we use.
Terminating before the other

409
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,600
microbes that demand more water.
Yeah.

410
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,960
So let me explain that.
When we're looking at the amount

411
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,360
of water vapour I can hold, we
use the term relative humidity.

412
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,000
The similar concept is also
applied to materials and foods

413
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,880
be quite water activity.
That's all right.

414
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,240
Yeah.
So under thermal equilibrium,

415
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,680
let's say a material is the same
temperature as the air and the

416
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,400
air is at 60% RH the water
activity.

417
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,760
Or say that plasterboard is
going to be .6 or water activity

418
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,960
.6.
At .6, some of the dry moles

419
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:47,280
begin to germinate at .8.
The quite a number of them will

420
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,800
be the germinate.
But there are some colonizers,

421
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,400
or we call them tertiary
colonizers that require water

422
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,000
activity to be quite high above
.95, for example, before they

423
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,280
start germinating.
But those are the molds.

424
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,360
And then we've got a bacteria,
which is another class of

425
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,520
another Kingdom in its own.
Now the, the, the, the bacteria,

426
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,600
especially those that are found
in water damaged buildings tend

427
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,080
to be really sophisticated and
and they create a host of

428
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,120
problems more advanced than
mold.

429
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,760
So a class of bacteria called
echinomyces, this is one that

430
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,120
British Shoemaker has been
looking a lot in, but they

431
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,040
require a very high water
activity.

432
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:32,040
So where mold is useful as as an
indicator is that the dry molds,

433
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,200
the primary colonizers give us
that early warning before the

434
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,640
building gets wetter and wetter.
And then the tertiary colonizers

435
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,320
come, and the tertiary
colonizers are usually the

436
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,920
nastier molds.
You look at the primary

437
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,080
colonizers at as those that come
in quickly and they breed like

438
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:51,080
rabbits and they start
colonizing the space and the.

439
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,320
Astigilous Penicillium.
There's that one.

440
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,880
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they, they, they cross a

441
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,160
few different, but yes, they
definitely have the tertiary,

442
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:02,800
sorry, the primary colonizers
amongst us, the penicillium, but

443
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,040
the tertiary colonizer like
tomium, like yellow Palladium

444
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,160
psychiatrist.
Yes, they, they, they come

445
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,120
later, but by that time there
are already colonies

446
00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,640
established.
So their tactic is quite

447
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,080
different.
They are like, like a colonist

448
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,120
coming to a place that already
has got an indigenous

449
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,400
population.
They bring in the big guns,

450
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,760
right?
So, and the big guns for them

451
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,080
are mycotoxins.
Mycotoxins are basically the way

452
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,240
of the mold produces A toxin to
give it a competitive advantage.

453
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,640
The the, the biological term is
called allelopathy.

454
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,880
It's a bit like how the Shiok
would drop down those pipe,

455
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,880
those needles and basically
nothing else can grow on on on

456
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,160
the ground after that.
Similarly, that's what what the,

457
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,600
the tertiary colonizers do.
They pump out this mycotoxins

458
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,440
that basically wipe out the the,
the early colonizers and, and,

459
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,240
and we are the ones that suffer
from those two.

460
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:58,960
So what's?
That word again.

461
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,240
Allelopathy.
OK.

462
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,160
Yep, Yep.
So it's it's just basically how

463
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,760
how it's a chemical warfare of
plants to give themselves a

464
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,520
biological advantage by by
making it hostile to to other

465
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,240
organisms.
So you can tell how long the

466
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,120
mold has been present based on
what type of mold is present.

467
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,440
Is that what you're saying?
The timing is indirect.

468
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,960
The the the most direct
indicator is the water activity.

469
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,040
We we can tell how wet the
material is by looking at the

470
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:35,000
kind of organisms that are found
there.

471
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,360
Usually we can measure the
moisture content of materials

472
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:41,520
quite directly.
But let's say a flood has come

473
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,840
through is dried up, the
materials are dry.

474
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,120
Well, if, if you're really
curious to find out how wet it

475
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:54,160
was before the type of organisms
that grow there would be, would

476
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,080
be a good indicator.
And, and, and the people that

477
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,680
spend a lot of time and this are
actually the food researchers,

478
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,920
they work on the water activity
of food.

479
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,200
So by by, for example,
increasing the salt content or

480
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,680
the sugar content, you drop the
water activity.

481
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,160
So you make it such that certain
organisms will not grow.

482
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,040
So, so the people who are right
at the cutting edge of looking

483
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,600
at how water activity effects
microorganisms would be the food

484
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,760
scientists, the environmental
scientists.

485
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,400
We, we draw our our knowledge
from the Super doing the

486
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,760
original research.
Yeah, right.

487
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:28,160
Right.
Yeah.

488
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,320
Yep.
And so that's, that's a part

489
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,160
where where mold is an
indicator, especially the

490
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,400
primary colonizers are an early
indicator of a moisture damage.

491
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,280
And the moisture damage is the
real problem that we have to

492
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,280
deal with very often.
We can't see the moisture

493
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,040
damage, but the mold becomes the
indicator for it.

494
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:50,280
And probably another point that
might be useful for your use for

495
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,280
your for your listeners to
understand is that we don't

496
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,520
really need in the case of say
plasterboard to wait for spores

497
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:02,360
to land on the plasterboard
before the mold will grow under

498
00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,080
high humidity condition.
What happens is that

499
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:12,080
plasterboard, the pop in the
factory is typically already pre

500
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:16,560
contaminated with mold because
the power factory would be

501
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,240
actually producing pop
continuously.

502
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,480
So the machines are already full
of mold.

503
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,480
It's already pre inoculated into
the mold.

504
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,120
And that's where we can find
moldy plasterboard, even when it

505
00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:31,880
is concealed underneath
wallpaper, vinyl wallpaper, for

506
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,040
example.
Yeah, so you don't really need

507
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,080
sports to land on it and, and,
and come together.

508
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,480
Because of the moisture content
in the in the machinery is it or

509
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,320
it grows because it's wet it?
Will be in the factory, yes.

510
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,640
So the purpose of mold is really
to recycle nutrients.

511
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,920
So in a forest, that's what the
fungus, the fungi do, they break

512
00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:02,560
down carbon based materials such
as trees and stuff and they

513
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,040
break it down into human centre
becomes soil and and that allows

514
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,000
new plants to grow.
No mould, no soil, no food.

515
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,040
They're a vital part of the
ecosystem.

516
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:14,600
It's just that we don't want
them to be overly active inside

517
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,240
our buildings.
OK, so by using plasterboard

518
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,800
straight up, we're already
pushing stuff uphill?

519
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,000
That's, that's a good way of
saying it.

520
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,280
Yes, we, we, we are because,
because in the wild they would

521
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,640
take a lot of effort to break
down these nutrients in, in

522
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,000
trees, for example, even if
they're after only the

523
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,960
cellulose, they've got a wait
for other fungi that would break

524
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:41,080
down the harder to break down
bits, the the lignans, the

525
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,560
hemicellulos.
So those are the structural

526
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,240
parts of timber.
So only when those are broken

527
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,200
down can the cellulose be
released.

528
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,720
But in the pop factory, if
you're doing things with things

529
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:58,120
like MDF medium density fiber
boards that's found in kitchen

530
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,680
carpentry is found in IKEA
furnitures and all these things,

531
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,040
we are already pre digesting the
fibers and, and it's it doesn't

532
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,280
take much effort for the mold to
grow.

533
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,480
So, so it's really easy for them
to take off after that.

534
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,760
Right.
OK, wow, so the OK, I feel like

535
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:26,520
already so so already learning
so much, but is it is the going

536
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,960
down to this level of knowledge
is is really, really

537
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,040
interesting.
It's time for a quick sponsor

538
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,800
shout out.
Today's episode of the Building

539
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,880
Psychology Potty is proudly
brought to you by our amazing

540
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:40,760
sponsors in Durobuilders and
Climate Shore.

541
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:43,640
A huge thank you to these
incredible businesses for

542
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,600
supporting the podcast and
helping us spread the word about

543
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,120
better buildings to live and
breathe in.

544
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,680
Your support makes this podcast
possible.

545
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,960
Please head over to their
websites and follow their social

546
00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:00,000
pages.
I appreciate it.

547
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,240
I need to regroup my brain.
The second part of that question

548
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,280
is what people are getting wrong
when tackling mold issues.

549
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,080
What do you think?
What do you think people are

550
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,320
getting wrong when we are trying
to tackle mold issues in our

551
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:13,720
homes?
If we're already, if we're using

552
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,720
a lot of mold sensitive porous
materials like plasterboard,

553
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,920
like MDF, what are we getting
wrong to keep these building

554
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,320
these building materials
healthy?

555
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,120
Because they do have mold in
them already, as you're saying.

556
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,800
So they they need, we need mold
to break them down to create

557
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:33,440
these products.
So in order to stop that from

558
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,680
from germinating, what do we
need to do?

559
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,000
OK.
Like you said, we are pushing

560
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,280
uphill.
If you are working with a

561
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:47,440
moisture sensitive material that
is so sensitive to, to more

562
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,120
growth.
Now there, there are quite a lot

563
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:57,240
of things we are getting wrong.
And I might just talk about

564
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,920
where we, we, we have created a
problem as a result of our

565
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:07,680
sidled thinking.
I think building practitioners

566
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,920
when we work at buildings, we,
we deliver the building and we

567
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,600
don't typically go back there to
check on the occupants if they

568
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,160
are breathing easy and that the
house is performing as, as, as

569
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,760
we promised and so forth.
There are no defects and we, we

570
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:30,000
don't typically do that.
But when something catastrophic

571
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,120
happens, say a flood or hail
damage and then the insurance

572
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,920
claim is lodged, what happens is
that another industry comes into

573
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,280
the picture and that is the
restoration industry.

574
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,520
So I've, I've had the
opportunity of being in the

575
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,120
construction site and now in the
restoration side of it, I, I see

576
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,880
a very different site.
I see that when you come in

577
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,480
restoration it is important for
the insurer to know for example,

578
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:59,560
whether the mode is a result of
the claimed event or was it

579
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,520
pre-existing and unrelated.
It could be a building fault, a

580
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,000
defect, it could be just a code
compliant building that didn't

581
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,920
take care of condensation.
They need to know because on one

582
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:11,600
hand it is covered, on the other
hand it isn't.

583
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,240
Yes.
Now some of the problems that we

584
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:19,320
are we are facing are those that
we cannot find an elegant

585
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,640
solution to.
In fact we have no solution.

586
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,960
One of those that I see quite
often is with fire rated

587
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,120
plasterboard.
So what happens is that if you

588
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,400
were to build 2 houses against
each other, we require fire

589
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,160
separation between them, what we
call 2 soul occupancy units.

590
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,120
You need to have a fire rated
wall with a certain FRL.

591
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,320
The cheapest way of doing that
wall obviously is with

592
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,480
plasterboard.
Plasterboard is a fantastic fire

593
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,120
rated material because it's got
the the gypsum has got this

594
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,640
thing called the water of
crystallization.

595
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,360
So when you heat it up it will
release that water of

596
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,000
crystallization that allows it
to stay insulated and prevent

597
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,920
the fire spread of fire for
quite a long time.

598
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:07,720
The problem with plasterboard is
that we line them with paper and

599
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,679
and this wall between the two
houses has got to be built

600
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,159
before the roof is on.
So we leave this plasterboard in

601
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,800
the rain to get wet.
Yes.

602
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,320
So by the time, by the time we
open the wall to look at flood

603
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,239
damage, we're looking at areas
that were not affected by the

604
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,199
escape of liquids.
There's mold on it.

605
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,400
Now, the restoration industry
works to a certain standard.

606
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,320
It's written by the American
organization called the IICRC

607
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:37,440
Institute of Inspection,
Cleaning and Restoration

608
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,159
Certification, and they've got
standards for that, S500 for

609
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,639
water damage restoration and S
524 mode remediation.

610
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,000
The guidelines is that if
there's mode on the plaster

611
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,400
boards, you remove the plaster
boards.

612
00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:55,320
Now, how do you remove a plaster
board that was installed between

613
00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,560
two walls during construction?
Now, in some cases you can

614
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,480
remove and try to fill it up.
But in some products like like

615
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,720
this is protocol shaft liner
where you got to put it between

616
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,400
a metal channel, you can't spot
it in anymore after the walls

617
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,240
have been built.
So you're, you're, you're,

618
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,440
you're stuck with this
condition.

619
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,640
And, and we've got a clash.
We've got a clash between what

620
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,120
the construction industry is
doing and what the restoration

621
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,240
industry is doing.
And and who's caught in the

622
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:28,080
middle is the building owners.
Now we are not talking to each

623
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,520
other.
We are not talking to each other

624
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,960
enough because, and I think if
we put ourselves in the position

625
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,480
of the building owners, we, we
might rethink the whole

626
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,760
construction.
We'll be asking ourselves was it

627
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,280
really worthwhile going with the
cheapest fire separating wall?

628
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,160
We could have built it with say
a tilt panel or with masonry

629
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,440
work.
It's going to cost more, but

630
00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:59,480
hey, that wouldn't get damaged
if we had inclement weather.

631
00:35:59,960 --> 00:36:06,600
So I, I think that the, the root
cause of a lot of the problems I

632
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,320
feel very encountering is side
Rd. thinking everyone is working

633
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,640
within a narrow silos and saying
that, all right, this works for

634
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,400
me, it's somebody else's
problem.

635
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,000
And, and I think mode is one of
those hot potatoes that nobody

636
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,120
wants to deal with is always
somebody else's problem.

637
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,920
I, I think I've, I've summarized
it in the line as somebody's

638
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,200
problem, nobody's business.
Yeah.

639
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,560
So yeah, I, I think what we need
is more generalists who can sit

640
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,920
across the different disciplines
and understand that you, you

641
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,560
can't solve the problems created
upstream.

642
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,160
We really got to move as far
upstream as possible, possibly

643
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,800
to to the designers to get these
things done right so that we

644
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,200
don't have to try to be on our
back foot trying to solve

645
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,400
problems that were kind of
designed in and built in.

646
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,800
So get it right from the start.
Yeah.

647
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,480
Get it right the first time yes
and ask questions, collaborate,

648
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:06,720
communicate, put a team
together, you know, work

649
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,440
together.
But the the problem with that is

650
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,520
knowing who to talk to and
having that, you know, having

651
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,640
the time and, and the
inclination and, and, you know,

652
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,120
understanding that it's a thing
you need to know about and.

653
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,600
That's one thing, and I might
ask you a question because

654
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,000
you've done so many interviews,
Do you have a sense that

655
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,880
Australians have a fear of
science?

656
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,320
Yeah, not a fear.
I guess it's fear of the

657
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,240
unknown.
And there's just barriers,

658
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:36,560
doesn't there?
Is there is mental barriers in,

659
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,640
you know, too hard basket?
You know, let's just do what

660
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,520
today needs.
Yeah, we've got to make science

661
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,160
popular and and appealing once,
once again.

662
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,000
Good on you.
Yeah, because I, yeah, I think

663
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,640
some of the phobias have set in
and people just don't want to

664
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,800
touch condensation because it is
too sciencey.

665
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,160
And, and that's really
unfortunate.

666
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,200
We do need some science to
understand and grapple with the

667
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,200
issues, but but it is not too
difficult I feel.

668
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:11,360
Yeah, yeah, it, it's not.
And I think, you know, just the

669
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,160
old, the old Coke can analogy
condens.

670
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,880
It's, it's moisture.
It's there.

671
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,000
It's, it's heat, air and
moisture is everywhere.

672
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:23,880
And we really must understand it
in order to, to, to make sure

673
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,600
that these unintended
consequences don't happen.

674
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,480
It's, it is, it is a lot.
I think it's a lot simpler than

675
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,320
we would than than the general
population understand.

676
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:39,440
Yeah, we've got to.
We've got to get you a slot in

677
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:45,600
some popular TV drama so that
people can learn by some kind of

678
00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:48,800
diffusion without having to feel
like they had to work so hard to

679
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,280
understand it.
Right.

680
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Yeah, exactly.
We don't have to get a PhD to

681
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,320
understand this.
Stuff you don't, honestly, Yeah,

682
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,040
yeah, just just just just
wrangle the arms or the people

683
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,560
with PhDs to explain it in a way
that they can understand.

684
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,400
Yeah, exactly.
And and have conversations, Be

685
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,120
open to conversations and be
you're willing to learn and then

686
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,240
and then you get there
eventually.

687
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:12,040
And once you start, you can't UN
start, you can't unlearn.

688
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,280
And so once you start, you're on
the way.

689
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:18,920
Yeah, Yeah, that's a good.
Excuse me point, OK Tim, you

690
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,800
have been quite vocal about gaps
in our building code when it

691
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,600
comes to condensation and
ventilation.

692
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,160
So what do you think?
What do you think is a simple

693
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,040
fix or a not simple fix?
What do you think is the fix

694
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:36,800
that we need to address it?
Yeah, I like how in all your

695
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,600
questions you're asking for a
solution.

696
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,000
I I'm usually not quite there, I
can see the problem, but not the

697
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,960
solution.
But let me explain the problem

698
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,280
first.
Yeah, I think many building

699
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,200
practitioners would find
themselves in the position where

700
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,480
all they're aiming for is to
achieve code compliance.

701
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,200
I think with my experience of
condensation, I'm looking at

702
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,000
where the code needs to be.
So I'm looking at from a

703
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:01,880
different point of view I'm
looking at.

704
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,280
What makes the code fit for
purpose?

705
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,440
Whereas most practitioners
aren't really interested in

706
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,840
that, they're asking the
question, how can I get this

707
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,720
ticked off?
How can I build?

708
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,480
How can I move on to my next
project?

709
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,720
So I think I what I'm requesting
is that people who, who are

710
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:24,440
thinking that we understand that
we are not where we need to be

711
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,320
every three years when we update
the code, there are more

712
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,480
provisions not to make people's
lives more difficult.

713
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,000
When we first did our
condensation scoping study for

714
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,760
the ABCB, that was in 2016, we
came up with a list of

715
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,600
recommendations and how they
could be rolled out into the

716
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,440
code for the next four or five
iterations.

717
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,000
Australia is probably about four
or five decades behind where the

718
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,440
cutting edge of condensation
hydrothermal analysis and

719
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:59,800
research in this field is.
Not because we don't have the

720
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,240
problems, it's just that we have
been late at this and I feel a

721
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:08,000
lot more needs to be done.
So where we are for this current

722
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,000
iteration for NCC 2025, whenever
that's going to be rolled out

723
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:15,480
and beyond, we are still very
far from where we have needed to

724
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,880
be from the very beginning of
our energy efficiency

725
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,880
provisions.
So I come from the point of view

726
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,120
that code compliance is not
nearly enough.

727
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,360
We we need to ask the question,
is it fit for purpose?

728
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,480
But that's, that's a really
complex question because fitness

729
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,200
for purpose is not something
that the NCC claims to

730
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,160
accomplish.
In fact, it explicitly disclaims

731
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,320
fitness for purpose under its
disclaimer.

732
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,160
So we are stuck in this kind of
a no man's land that being quote

733
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,160
compliant doesn't mean fit for
purpose And, and, and, and in a

734
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,320
nutshell, that's probably my
main criticism that we need to

735
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:01,400
not look at the NCC as the
maximum.

736
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:08,160
We need to look at it as a
pathway to us accomplishing the

737
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,680
real changes that we need.
So it's not, it's nowhere close

738
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,000
to where we need to be.
You can have a code compliant

739
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,760
home and you can have people
sick there.

740
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,120
And then we have to ask our
questions.

741
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,760
Is our built environment failing
these people, these people with

742
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,400
CRS, they can be up to 25% of
the population.

743
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:34,120
We make public buildings
universally accessible for the

744
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:39,600
one or 2% that that's that that
that require mobility aids.

745
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,400
But it that's no harm, isn't it?
It benefits everyone else.

746
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,160
A mother pushing a Pramp, an old
person, they may not require

747
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,440
mobility aids, but Rams tactile
indicators.

748
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,160
It helps everybody.
We can make buildings

749
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:54,800
universally accessible.
Why?

750
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,520
Why aren't we asking a question
whether our buildings are

751
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,280
universally healthy?
We aren't asking that question

752
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,280
and, and we ought to be asking
that question because if our

753
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,480
buildings aren't universally
healthy, if, if the air is

754
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,760
unsuitable for somebody with
cystic fibrosis or or

755
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,960
compromised immune system to, to
breathe, then then what are we

756
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,200
accomplishing?
I mean, surely we need to make

757
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,640
buildings robust enough for
everyone to enjoy.

758
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,920
And, and, and that's, that's my
pitch.

759
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,160
I think we are a long way away
from that.

760
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680
We, we need to start grappling
with health issues and see the

761
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,760
interplay between health issues
and the built environment.

762
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,080
Doctors have got to be a lot
more cognizant about how

763
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,560
buildings are the theatre of a
whole lot of ailments of which

764
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,400
they are they are treating the
symptoms.

765
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,040
Building practitioners have got
to be a whole lot more

766
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,640
convalescent about what makes
buildings healthy or unhealthy.

767
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,240
I think that's that's that's
where we need to be.

768
00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:55,800
We are a long way off from
there.

769
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,840
Part of the problem is the very
fragmented regulatory system

770
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:03,360
across Australia.
If you were to ask the question

771
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,680
who is responsible for a healthy
building?

772
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,680
Well, once again, it depends
your universal answer it it it

773
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:12,800
comes to play here.
I, I haven't studied every,

774
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,680
every state, but for example,
in, in Tasmania, it is not the

775
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,480
building surveyor, it's the
environmental health officer who

776
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,760
makes that call through the
instrument called the Public

777
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,200
Health Act under the clause of
unhealthy premises.

778
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,560
If you come to Victoria, where
I'm based, the environment

779
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,680
health officer doesn't make that
call.

780
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,440
It is the building surveyor who
can give an opinion and issue a

781
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,400
building notice if he's of the
opinion that the building's

782
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,840
unhealthy, it's a risk to the
health of anyone using the

783
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:42,720
building.
So if you go to every state,

784
00:44:42,720 --> 00:44:44,720
there's going to be a different
legislative instrument.

785
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:50,200
But hey, it is never really one
person's responsibility.

786
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,600
Are we?
Back to the issue of it being

787
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:54,880
somebody's problem and nobody's
business all over again?

788
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,920
We've got to see that this is a
communal problem.

789
00:44:58,080 --> 00:44:59,880
This is a problem that affects
everyone.

790
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:06,640
It's going to be somebody we
know that is going to be in that

791
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,960
category of being sensitive to
mode and builder buildings,

792
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,320
whether they've got asthma,
whether they've got cancer,

793
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,400
whether they've got an organ
transplant and and required to

794
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,080
be on immunosuppressant drugs.
We would know somebody who is in

795
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,200
the category.
Are we saying that our good

796
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,840
environment is not for them And
and I cannot accept that as the

797
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,080
acceptable answer.
So that there is so much work we

798
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,640
need to do.
It is not just the NCC, the NCC,

799
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,640
it's constraint.
At the end of the day, it's got

800
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,120
to be, it's got to be all of us
doing way more than the minimum

801
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,720
standards.
It starts with awareness.

802
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:51,200
It starts with, with, with with
the age of podcasts like yours

803
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,520
where we have this kind of long
format discussions to start and

804
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,040
picking how complex this issues.
And, and I think, and I think we

805
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,280
are in an environment where
people actually open to such

806
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,240
long format discussions.
I mean, why, why, why is Joe

807
00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:09,920
Rogan's two hour interviews one
of the most popular podcast on

808
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,520
on Spotify?
Why are people like take a cows

809
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:16,640
and that that talks for an hour,
hour and a half with one person?

810
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,920
Or why, why are they popular?
Well, because I, I think

811
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,920
increasingly people want to have
a sophisticated, in depth

812
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:24,720
discussion.
They they're just sick and tired

813
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,560
of platitudes of having sound
right information because it's

814
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,680
never that that straightforward.
We we need to unpick this

815
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,760
complex problems with with with
a lot more time.

816
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,800
And and I think you're we had a
cusp and probably that's where I

817
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,320
see hope in this.
I see, I'm encouraged the people

818
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,040
that you are picking this up
that that I mean, I've been

819
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,040
following your work, but not
everybody knows about you.

820
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,720
But but hey, if you become
popular, isn't that a great

821
00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,080
thing for everyone that that
that this could could mean that

822
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,080
everyone's knowledge becomes
that that bit more

823
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,680
sophisticated.
Everybody's IQ goes up by a few

824
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,360
points through this podcast.
Isn't that a fantastic thing?

825
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,600
Oh, Gee, Tim, I hope so.
I really hope so.

826
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,760
That's I want I want to connect
the dots for people.

827
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,160
I want to increase knowledge
bases and I want to get

828
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,160
conversations happening.
So I really hope that that that

829
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:15,560
is happening out there.
And I think that what you're

830
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,120
saying about long form
discussions, I think that I

831
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,680
think that anyone who is willing
to sit down and listen to this

832
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,240
conversation or or any longer
conversation is going to be a

833
00:47:23,240 --> 00:47:26,640
solution orientated person.
And you know, my one of my

834
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,520
favorite podcasts, the Mark
Manson podcast, it's not not

835
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:34,320
building science related, but
he's he's sort of like a small

836
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:38,200
like psychology people related.
He's just started a podcast

837
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:39,840
where they're 4 hour long
episodes.

838
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,160
And I have committed to
listening to four hours of this

839
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:47,240
guy talk that he's brilliant.
It is quite quickly when you're

840
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:49,040
travelling and listening to them
under around it's.

841
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,960
It's, you know, the light bulbs.
You're like, yeah, yeah.

842
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:57,720
And that's helpful.
So, yeah, I hope that that's

843
00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,480
what people are getting out of
out of these discussions so that

844
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,480
we're having.
Yeah.

845
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,800
So thank you.
Yes, I would like to know a

846
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,040
little bit about you are in the
restoration industry.

847
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,320
So Ric, what is that your
company that you work for is

848
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,120
Ric, what does that stand for?
Restoration, insurance and

849
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:17,480
construction.
Yeah, OK.

850
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:17,880
Yeah.
Great.

851
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,200
So you that's Yep.
Yep.

852
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:27,520
So the the, the, the bulk of a
business that deals with looking

853
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,520
at restoration works from after
an event.

854
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,520
So it could be a lot of interest
related events would be like

855
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:38,000
floods, fires, methamphetamine
and so forth.

856
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,200
So basically, yes, yes.
To understand meth labs.

857
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:47,120
Yeah, yeah, a lot of what we do
is around more than moisture.

858
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:54,640
But yes, we, we, we, we look, we
look at, yes, those, those cook

859
00:48:54,640 --> 00:49:00,240
houses for math labs, yes, fire
damage and, and, and a number of

860
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:01,360
other things as well.
Yeah.

861
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,000
That's it.
That's an area of the world that

862
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:09,160
I know nothing about.
And it'd be fascinating to, I

863
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,400
mean, I watched what's that?
What's that series with the with

864
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,360
the on Netflix?
Did you watch it?

865
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,760
Were they cooked meth?
Not sure.

866
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,800
No, I I haven't watched that
one.

867
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,960
But yeah, a lot of those things
are probably more fact than

868
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,680
fiction.
Yeah, yeah, it felt, it felt.

869
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,000
I forgot the name of it.
I have to look it up.

870
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,480
Anyway, great Gary series loved
it.

871
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,280
So I would like to know, could
you share with us some of the

872
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,680
building failures that you have
investigated?

873
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:44,000
Is there any in particular that
really stuck with you that you

874
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,120
tell people about like a, you
know, lessons learned type

875
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:54,200
thing?
Yep, If you want a fairly

876
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,760
balanced and reasonably
comprehensive treaties of it,

877
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,040
I've done 2 reports for the
Victoria Building Authority on

878
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,440
two data sets.
One was based off the Victoria

879
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,720
Managed Insurance Authorities
domestic building insurance

880
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:13,160
claims and the other one was
with the Domestic Building

881
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,160
District resolution, Victoria
DBDRVS and dispute database.

882
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,360
Both of them were looking at
more than moisture issues as a

883
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,920
result of we could be building
defects, false disputes.

884
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,160
So it's it's quite thoroughly
dealt with there.

885
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,240
On my own, those that I see
quite often would be a fair bit

886
00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,280
of plumbing failures.
It could be the roof plumbing.

887
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,040
Another one that we often find a
lack of is in site drainage.

888
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:47,920
So for example, you've got a
sloping site.

889
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:52,920
The code actually requires that
you shouldn't have a negative

890
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:54,360
fall, you should fall away from
the house.

891
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,560
But if you've got a stopping
site most of the time, some

892
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,320
people, most of the time people
don't bother about that and you

893
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,440
end up with a wall that is
constantly being accumulating

894
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,560
moisture.
Like I said, drainage, there

895
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,280
should have been a cut off drain
there and so forth.

896
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:15,960
Another one that we see very
often is our materials that have

897
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800
been left out in the weather, so
that by the time you heat up,

898
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,680
the mold is already kind of
actively growing.

899
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,400
It's it might get dominant for a
while, but you're already on the

900
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:32,520
back foot.
Yeah, balconies, waterproofing

901
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,080
issues.
It's very common, even internal

902
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,960
waterproofing.
We had in the last iteration of

903
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,680
the National Construction Code,
a newly referenced ESP740 for

904
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,680
internal waterproofing.
There have been a lot of changes

905
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,600
and it tells you that we needed
those changes because we were

906
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,880
doing things less than
satisfactorily.

907
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,440
So how much of A wall do you
have to waterproof?

908
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:00,600
Before then you just worried
about waterproof in the

909
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,200
junctions.
Now you waterproof the whole

910
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,440
wall and now so, so, so, so that
tells you something that we've

911
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:06,840
been building it wrong for a
while.

912
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,920
Yeah.
So I, I think it is a constantly

913
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,880
changing of knowledge in this
areas is growing.

914
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:20,640
That's, that's whilst I don't
want to pin blame on anybody, we

915
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,960
do have to remember that it is
seldom the building

916
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,520
practitioners that were the
consequences of our actions.

917
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:32,240
If, if somebody's house gets
moldy, it's not, that's not us.

918
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:35,720
It's not our kids, our, our
properties don't devalue in

919
00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:39,840
price somebody else.
So actually it is really the

920
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,280
homeowners that suffer for a lot
of the decisions that we make.

921
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,480
And, and probably my appeal
would be that building

922
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,760
practitioners start thinking
about these things differently

923
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,600
and not just look at the client
as somebody who pays for the job

924
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,920
and, and you move on.
But, but look at that, that,

925
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,720
that as the community we are, we
are somehow invested in one

926
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,840
another.
And we do have to take a certain

927
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,400
measure of pride in what we are
doing.

928
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,040
It may be that we have to do
things more slowly, It may be

929
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,120
that we have to charge more.
But if that's what it takes,

930
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,360
that's what it takes because the
way we are doing things now is

931
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,800
it's not viable.
You mentioned the VBA.

932
00:53:21,720 --> 00:53:26,320
Do you do you have any comment
on any of those issues that

933
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,640
happened in Victoria and the the
I understand that the VBA was

934
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,680
dismantled last year and
recreated into the Victorian

935
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,520
Building and Plumbing Authority
is that.

936
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,000
Correct.
Building and plumbing

937
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,200
Commission.
Building and plumbing

938
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,720
Commission, Not yet.
You'll be in the second-half of

939
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:44,920
this year that that happens.
The law, the law for that was

940
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:49,200
just the bill for that was just
passed into law a few weeks ago.

941
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,280
So yeah, it hasn't quite
happened yet, Yeah.

942
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,360
I'm just going to interrupt our
conversation quickly to let you

943
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,960
know that this conversation was
actually recorded back in June

944
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,960
of this year, 2025 and the
Building and plumbing Commission

945
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,480
was enacted in July 2025.
So we were chatting before the

946
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,320
building and plumbing Commission
had been enacted.

947
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,880
Back to our conversation.
And are you, do you have any

948
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,600
comment on what happened there?
And because I know you were

949
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,520
involved in a few things that in
in that.

950
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:19,160
Do you have any comments on
that?

951
00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:25,320
Yeah, I, I probably have too
many comments on that.

952
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,120
So many comments that I wrote a
book about.

953
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,880
That is that the uncle dodgy
book.

954
00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:33,720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We'll get to Uncle Dodgy in a

955
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:35,960
second.
Yeah, it's kind of defect

956
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,120
evasion playbook, but but it was
my way of consolidating all my

957
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:45,000
thoughts on this.
I I've had the good working

958
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:49,320
relationship with the VBA,
primarily with the research

959
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,120
division.
And just to interrupt you for a

960
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,280
second, the VBA, for anyone who
doesn't know what that is, is

961
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:55,640
the Victorian Building
Authority.

962
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:56,800
Yeah, correct.
Yeah.

963
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,040
Thanks for that.
That's the building regulator

964
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:07,240
for in Vic.
They have very unfortunately

965
00:55:07,240 --> 00:55:11,040
been given the name of authority
because I think it is the only

966
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,720
building regulator that's called
the building authority amongst

967
00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:18,120
all Australian states.
It is somewhat misleading

968
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:20,040
because they don't set their own
laws.

969
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,680
Their their, their role is a
building regulator.

970
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,720
And if you understand that the,
the regulator's role is in

971
00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:34,400
licensing and in enforcing that
the licensees do the right thing

972
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,160
or they would be penalized or
lose their licenses.

973
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,720
And along the way, part of the
strategy is to take an educative

974
00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:44,200
response to, to matters.
So I've been working a lot with

975
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:46,840
the people that are involved in
the educational part of it.

976
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,160
And, and, and, and I see that
that side of it and I do enjoy

977
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:52,720
it.
I know there are people who have

978
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:57,600
grouses against the regulatory
part of it where they feel that

979
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,840
they've either overstepped or
they are not doing enough.

980
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:03,400
It's it's, it's hard to get it
right.

981
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,240
My my take on this is that there
are definitely issues with the

982
00:56:10,240 --> 00:56:18,200
way the VBA has been run.
Boronen Beer construction lawyer

983
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,120
who wrote who co-authored the
Building Confidence report.

984
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:26,200
Last year, she wrote a rather
scathing report revealing the

985
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:34,360
shortcomings of the VBA, that
the report has been addressed

986
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,760
and according the current CEO,
made an apology for how how

987
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,040
things have been done.
So I don't want to be overly

988
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,920
harsh on the VBA, seeing that
they are aware of the issues and

989
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:45,400
they're trying to make some
changes.

990
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,720
So the new building permit
Commission that you talked about

991
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,600
that's going to come in probably
in July this year, it is the VBA

992
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,880
with additional departments
added to them.

993
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,960
They'll be adding in domestic
building insurance from the VMIA

994
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,800
and also district, district
resolution from the DBDRV.

995
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,520
So it becomes the one stop shop
for for consumers.

996
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,480
For consumers in terms of defect
rectification.

997
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,600
It's big, it's going to effect,
it's going to include defects,

998
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,840
it's going to include non
compliance, it's going to

999
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,640
include things like a major
defect is going to be something

1000
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,040
where it affects habitability,
habitability.

1001
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,560
Obviously, it's going to be
determined by things like safety

1002
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:28,240
and health.
How to determine health.

1003
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:32,120
I, I don't think they've quite
thought through that yet, but on

1004
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,440
the most trivial end, it's going
to include incomplete work.

1005
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:41,200
Now, what is incomplete work?
It could be the painting on my

1006
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:43,240
wall is staffed.
It's one quote.

1007
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,800
I should have two quotes.
I mean, now the building

1008
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:47,320
surveyor doesn't care about
these things.

1009
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,240
These things in the past would
be pursued through the Domestic

1010
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,320
Building Contracts Act.
And if the builder refuses to

1011
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,920
come back, you would have to
basically you get a court order.

1012
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,560
But why would you get a court
order over a trivial matter

1013
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,280
like, like paid you?
I mean, waiting for that, you

1014
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:06,480
might as well just do it
yourself.

1015
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:07,120
Yeah.
Yeah.

1016
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,880
But now the building public
Commission is going to be

1017
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,880
involved in all those things.
How they're going to manage

1018
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:12,200
that?
It's.

1019
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,120
A.
Big job.

1020
00:58:14,120 --> 00:58:17,920
It's a big job because they're
they're moving away from an

1021
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,560
insurer of last resort to the
insurer of first resort.

1022
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,440
Now first resort insurance is no
different from a warranty.

1023
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,760
Now the new building primary
Commission is going to be the

1024
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,760
one that warrants all jobs.
So how how they're going to

1025
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:33,680
manage that?
I'm not sure.

1026
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:38,400
I know there are good people in
the BBA, but I feel that they

1027
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:39,920
have been let down by the
politicians.

1028
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:42,920
I think the politicians are
basically handballing the

1029
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,160
problem and saying that, look,
we have created all this

1030
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:49,320
wonderful new provisions for
increased consumer protection,

1031
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,880
but but the amount of workload
is going to generate for the new

1032
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:55,240
BPC, I think it's going to be
crushing.

1033
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,360
I hope I'm wrong.
I I hope somebody saw this

1034
00:58:58,360 --> 00:58:59,760
thing's true, but they typically
don't.

1035
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,280
It does seem like that.
It does seem like it does seem

1036
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,320
like a a wonderful solution to a
really big problem.

1037
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,840
But is it realistic?
Is it?

1038
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:16,880
Is it going to serve every
person who comes to them equally

1039
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:20,840
and are they going to get the
outcomes that they are intending

1040
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:23,200
to to get?
Because as you said, it is an

1041
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:25,280
astronomical amount of work and
responsibility.

1042
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:31,480
So I guess just to summarize
what's happened, and I'm going

1043
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:33,920
to probably stuff this up, so
please correct me if I'm wrong,

1044
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,560
Tim, but for the listener, the
Victorian Building Authority has

1045
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,960
been dismantled and the Building
and Plumbing Commission has been

1046
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,080
put together in its place
because there were some

1047
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:50,600
significant issues with way with
the way the VBA was being run

1048
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:56,120
and the power that the
homeowners had was very limited

1049
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,480
when it came to defects.
And so this new building and

1050
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,160
plumbing Commission has been
created in order to give a lot

1051
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,680
more power back to the consumer
in Victoria.

1052
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,280
Is that a decent summary?
That's, that's well put.

1053
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,360
The the timing is slightly off.
The VBA has not been dismantled

1054
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:13,280
yet.
But but, but, but that's you're

1055
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,040
off you're, you're, you're ahead
of your time.

1056
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:18,360
The, the rest of the
explanations are are spot on.

1057
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:26,560
The Buy Protections Bill, now
now a law was meant primarily

1058
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,040
for consumer protection and that
was going to be by giving the

1059
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:39,960
BPC more regulatory power,
harsher penalties and previously

1060
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:41,880
unknown power.
This is a new power that they

1061
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,800
have called a rectification
order where they can order works

1062
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,840
up to 10 years after handover.
10 years so builders in Victoria

1063
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,400
be aware that this is now
happening.

1064
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:53,560
Yep.
Yep.

1065
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,880
And it's is that is that the
most powerful, the most powerful

1066
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,960
authority, not authority body in
Australia in terms of state by

1067
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:06,160
state regulation.
No, sorry for being a nitpicker,

1068
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,200
but but the word powerful would
actually have, I would need to

1069
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:18,240
to be precise about that having
being all powerful also means

1070
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:23,400
that you're all responsible.
So I think in, in the book I, I,

1071
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:28,800
I call this chapter the axe with
a treacherous handle because

1072
01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:31,520
every time you try to swing that
axe, there are splinters that

1073
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,200
hurts your hand.
You see what happens is that if

1074
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:38,440
I could take for example, in
NSW, the situation is that the

1075
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:44,480
building commissioner has got
powers to, to like prohibition

1076
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,360
orders, rectification orders,
stop books.

1077
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,400
Notice the way they do it is
that they issue that order, they

1078
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,560
step out of the picture.
The builder has got to solve it.

1079
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,080
Now the Building Planning
Commission is not quite the same

1080
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,040
when they issue a rectification
order.

1081
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,720
What if the builder decides
that, hey, I'm not doing this

1082
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:05,840
too much work, I'm just going to
go insolvent.

1083
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,080
Now you've got a rectification
order with nobody to act upon

1084
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:10,560
it.
What good is it?

1085
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:15,400
It becomes the, the BPC becomes
on the hook now because they're

1086
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,240
also the insurer to have to come
up with a solution.

1087
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,480
And because, and that's because
the Insurance Act actually

1088
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,720
requires that the insurer steps
in to fix the problem as an

1089
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,160
insurance.
Now they've got to fix the

1090
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:31,560
problem that they have demanded
to be fixed.

1091
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,200
Let's say another builder comes
along and says, fine, happy to

1092
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:35,360
do it.
Tell me what to do.

1093
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,480
Now the BPC becomes the project
manager as well.

1094
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,880
And now if you come across a
complex thing like condensation,

1095
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:46,760
the builder says, don't know
what to do.

1096
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,680
Tell me what to do now.
The BPC cannot say they don't

1097
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:53,680
know what to do because the
highest authority in the land in

1098
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:55,760
in Victoria is the State
Building surveyor.

1099
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:58,760
He's got all the powers of the
municipal building surveys,

1100
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:01,200
which have all the powers of the
private building surveys plus

1101
01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:04,480
more.
So he is a technical expert on

1102
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:06,840
building and plumbing matters.
He cannot say he doesn't know.

1103
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:11,600
So here we have a situation that
whenever the PPC is going to

1104
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,200
swing, the axe is going to hurt
itself.

1105
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:16,760
They're on biting up its nose to
spite its face.

1106
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:21,960
They're going to be on the hook
if the solution fails for round

1107
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,160
two and round 3 and round 4.
Because a lot of these things,

1108
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:26,760
we don't even have the
solutions, that we don't even

1109
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,160
have the science yet.
I don't know how to fix some of

1110
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:33,400
these issues.
And, and yeah, so, so, so we,

1111
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,800
we, yes.
So we are in a very, very tricky

1112
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:41,280
and complex situation.
I I I'm afraid that the

1113
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:44,600
politicians haven't thought this
one through when they roll this

1114
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:45,720
up.
So, So you have, are we?

1115
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:46,680
Surprised.
Yeah.

1116
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:48,880
So, so we have.
Yeah, you're right in the sense

1117
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:52,760
they are the most powerful, but
they are also on the hook for

1118
01:03:52,760 --> 01:03:54,800
that.
Every time they swing their axe,

1119
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,800
their insurance is going to have
to pay for it.

1120
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:01,880
So do you think this has created
more problems than it's fixed?

1121
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:06,880
I think it'll create a new set
of problems that we haven't

1122
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:09,520
created before.
Problems that we could, we

1123
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:13,960
could, we could kind of push off
and leave the homeowners to have

1124
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,520
to live with it.
Now everything is transferred to

1125
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,160
the BPC.
Yeah.

1126
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,800
So I think there is.
We have accomplished the goal of

1127
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:24,600
having better consumer
protection.

1128
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,920
So lots of promises.
Lots of promises by the

1129
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,040
politicians.
Yeah.

1130
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:33,600
And let's see how we deliver.
Yes, and and and I think the how

1131
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:38,760
the policies have handballed the
thing to the BPC and now the BPC

1132
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:41,040
has got to to deal with the
pylon.

1133
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:44,440
OK, And who's employing people
at the B, the BPC?

1134
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,280
Who who who decides?
Have they?

1135
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,160
Have they rang you and say, hey
Tim, you want a job?

1136
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:54,280
Not quite, no, no.
But but I, I, I, I look at some

1137
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:58,400
of the jobs that they have.
One is, I think it's called

1138
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,600
director for enabling.
So I, I, I, I I don't know what

1139
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,560
these jobs are supposed to be,
but they're.

1140
01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:07,760
Paying write in the job
descriptions.

1141
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,960
Yeah, but they're paying like a
couple of couple of 100 grand.

1142
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,360
So it's, it's, it's it's well
paid positions.

1143
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:19,000
Yeah, I hope they get the right
people.

1144
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,160
I I would know most of the
technical people and I don't

1145
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:29,480
think that they're getting them.
Right, so we watch and wait, see

1146
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,600
what happens.
Maybe we'll have another chat in

1147
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,680
a in a year's time and see where
things are at.

1148
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:35,600
Yeah.
OK.

1149
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:41,640
All right, so, Uncle Dodgy,
let's let's talk about your

1150
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,440
book.
This is this is this is Doctor

1151
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:48,760
Tim Law, AKA Uncle Dodgy.
Well, so the defective Asian

1152
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,680
playbook, what is it?
Tell us about it.

1153
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:55,200
Yep, please.
It, it was a big thing, this bio

1154
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:59,520
protections bill that was going
to be implemented, the new BPC,

1155
01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:03,040
the ratification orders,
insurance of first resort.

1156
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:08,320
I was trying to wrap my mind
around it and, and I usually

1157
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:11,480
can't do that without writing.
So writing helps me to, to

1158
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:13,600
clarify my thoughts.
So it was really a thought

1159
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,440
experiment.
I want to deal with it, but I

1160
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,680
want to deal with it in a way
that was a bit more playful

1161
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:22,120
because if I wrote an academic
piece, it would probably be read

1162
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,960
by nobody and it affect no one.
But if I could write it in a

1163
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:29,600
humorous way, well, it might be
read by some people, but really

1164
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,480
it would also allow the
criticisms to land with a softer

1165
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:36,880
touch.
So I wanted to show how bad the

1166
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:41,280
situation was and how many ways
you could pardon the punch in

1167
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:47,800
the cat and you got a cat.
How many ways you could you

1168
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,080
could torment a home owner by
basically finding a whole lot of

1169
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:54,480
evasive measures.
So that was that was the first

1170
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,160
part of the book.
I wanted to to explain that we

1171
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:01,840
have terrible situation in in
Victoria where the builders can

1172
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:04,720
play a whole lot of games with
the home owners and home owners

1173
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,000
have got no, no recall.
So that before I introduce the

1174
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:11,560
bill and before I introduce my
criticisms on the bill.

1175
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,240
So that that was really it.
How can I give the worst players

1176
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,480
in industry something of a smug
voice?

1177
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:24,240
And and that voice became dodgy.
And this was really inspired by

1178
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,400
CS Lewis.
Screw tape lettuce, where you've

1179
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:30,600
got a senior demon writing to a
junior demon about how you can

1180
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:35,400
go about tempting humans.
He was a dodgy builder.

1181
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,200
I called him Dodgy Builder
writing letters to his nephew

1182
01:07:39,200 --> 01:07:42,200
called Shonky.
So he basically explains the

1183
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,840
playbook and and the ways you
can go about it.

1184
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,280
This, it wasn't really meant to
be a real playbook.

1185
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:49,760
It was kind of an inverted
advocacy Sapphire.

1186
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,040
Yeah, yeah.
I wanted to show how weak the

1187
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:55,840
system was and how how we need
to advocate for more change.

1188
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:58,000
So.
So that was the real, real idea

1189
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:00,280
behind it.
That's that became Dodgy

1190
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:02,560
Builder.
Yeah, yeah, I I have.

1191
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,000
Sorry, dodgy builder, not uncle
Dodgy.

1192
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,560
Or is it Uncle Dodgy you?
Become Uncle Dodgy too, yes,

1193
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,120
Yeah.
I have had a quick look through

1194
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,600
it.
I haven't managed to read

1195
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,280
through it thoroughly, but I
have had a quick look.

1196
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:18,840
It's very funny.
It's very, you know, readable

1197
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,120
and all based on true stories.
Yes, as.

1198
01:08:22,120 --> 01:08:23,880
It's it's all, isn't it?
It's all factual.

1199
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,479
It's all factual but but
anyone's blamed.

1200
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:28,800
It into something.
Exactly.

1201
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,920
If anyone's curious about the
actual back story, I can give

1202
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,040
you the exact court references
and so forth.

1203
01:08:35,200 --> 01:08:37,520
Yeah.
OK, all right, well, I am going

1204
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:40,520
to put a link to the Defect
Evasion playbook in the show

1205
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:43,479
notes.
So yeah, have a read and have a

1206
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:47,279
giggle and try not to get too
depressed about the state of

1207
01:08:47,720 --> 01:08:50,240
some of these buildings.
Absolutely.

1208
01:08:50,399 --> 01:08:53,399
But learn from it as well.
Learn from it and and talk about

1209
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:54,960
it.
Have conversations.

1210
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:56,720
That's what it's all about.
Absolutely.

1211
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:02,800
You work in the space of
forensic science, so you go in

1212
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,160
you you're in the insurance
space, so you'll go into a

1213
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:08,240
building and you will
forensically investigate and

1214
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:13,120
determine causes and effects.
As we deal with climate shifts

1215
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,359
and extreme weather and tighter
buildings, how do you see the

1216
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:20,520
role of forensic science in the
construction industry evolving?

1217
01:09:23,920 --> 01:09:27,240
I, I think we should, we should
deal with it in its holistic,

1218
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:32,800
complex way.
When we're looking at forensics,

1219
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:38,080
we are trying to use science to
determine what happened without

1220
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,560
us having witnessed what
happened.

1221
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:46,760
So it's, it's not science in the
strict sense.

1222
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:52,520
Science is something that can be
observed and repeated Here.

1223
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,120
You're making a number of
assumptions.

1224
01:09:55,240 --> 01:10:00,200
In the case of legal and
insurance matters, it's accepted

1225
01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,240
for us to say that on the
balance of probabilities, this

1226
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:08,080
is the most likely cause.
And cause is always critical

1227
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:13,200
because insurers put mode as one
of the exclusion items.

1228
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,480
So unless it is caused by an
event that is covered by the

1229
01:10:17,480 --> 01:10:20,080
policy, it would otherwise be
excluded.

1230
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:22,800
So causation is is is quite
critical.

1231
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:29,400
So in one of the cases that I
was recently working on, we are

1232
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:37,360
looking at mode occurring on the
ceiling of apartments and it is

1233
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:41,440
such that the apartments are
stacked backwards where the

1234
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:44,120
balcony is sitting over
habitable area and the next

1235
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:46,280
habitable area is under another
balcony is kind of what we call

1236
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:49,360
the wedding cake design.
This is a consequence or

1237
01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,320
sometimes it could be a planning
requirement in terms of

1238
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:56,120
overshading and to prevent from
a building looking overly bulky.

1239
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:59,000
So they stack the facade
backwards each time you go up

1240
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:06,040
the floors.
The the issues we're dealing

1241
01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:11,000
with is that we had to determine
whether it was a faulty

1242
01:11:11,000 --> 01:11:18,120
waterproofing membrane on the
balcony that caused the mold on

1243
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:22,960
the underside.
But from the leak detection

1244
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:26,640
testing, there was no leaks.
They couldn't detect a leak.

1245
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,160
So I felt that the alternative
hypothesis, if we couldn't

1246
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,920
determine the leak would be to
look at the possibility of

1247
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,880
condensation.
And when I looked at that, there

1248
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,760
was good reason for for that to
be the case.

1249
01:11:39,280 --> 01:11:42,600
So there are a few things.
That particular balcony was

1250
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:45,840
facing SE and on the eastern
side there was a very tall

1251
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,720
building that created
overshadowing.

1252
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,960
So those balconies would get
very little sun through the day.

1253
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:55,240
At night is open to the night
sky, it gets cold.

1254
01:11:55,440 --> 01:11:58,320
In the daytime with the shaded,
it doesn't warm up, so it gets

1255
01:11:58,320 --> 01:12:01,760
cold and it stays cold.
Warm air from the internal space

1256
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:04,560
would meet there and it was
observed that there was no

1257
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,000
insulation, no ceiling
insulation.

1258
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,960
So warm air, once it hits the
slab would start condensing.

1259
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:13,120
These were concrete balconies.
Concrete balconies, yes.

1260
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,320
And there was that much moisture
that there were stalactites.

1261
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:17,760
There was not just a
fluorescence, there were

1262
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:20,760
stalactites.
The assumption was actually

1263
01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:23,880
originally that it was water
leakage, but we were not able to

1264
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,360
replicate a leak, the water
leak.

1265
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:29,480
And so the alternative
hypothesis that I'm that I was

1266
01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:33,760
putting forward was that it was
condensation as a result of the

1267
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,720
balcony being cold.
And here's the other thing that

1268
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,240
we're not talking to enough with
the people in the waterproofing

1269
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:42,800
space.
The the external waterproofing

1270
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,480
is called by a standard called
AS4654.

1271
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,920
There, there is no provision
inside there for vapour

1272
01:12:49,920 --> 01:12:52,600
permeable membranes.
So you're putting a vapour

1273
01:12:52,600 --> 01:12:56,440
barrier as a waterproofing
membrane on the top of what is

1274
01:12:56,440 --> 01:12:58,560
the equivalent of a concrete
roof.

1275
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,320
If you've got vapor drive from
inside, low vapor on the outside

1276
01:13:03,440 --> 01:13:06,680
trying to push outwards, you hit
the waterproofing membrane, it

1277
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:08,880
cannot escape, it starts
accumulating within the slab,

1278
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,240
the slab gets saturated and you
start getting the fluorescence.

1279
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:14,840
Fluorescence living long enough
becomes a static tights.

1280
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:17,160
So vapor will go through a
concrete slab.

1281
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:19,640
Oh definitely.
Vapor can easily go through

1282
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,720
that.
Even sewage smells can go

1283
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:25,080
through concrete.
Yeah, yeah.

1284
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:29,640
So yeah, vapor, generally, the
poor, yeah.

1285
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,600
Vapor goes sorry.
This is interesting because I

1286
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,320
was having a conversation with
Clarence McAllister recently.

1287
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:39,480
His episode was released just on
Monday and he was saying that

1288
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:42,360
balconies over habitable space
is actually roofs and they're

1289
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:45,920
not treated as such.
That, that, that there's a

1290
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,400
weakness in our our court.
Yes, it should be treated as

1291
01:13:49,400 --> 01:13:50,680
such.
It should be treated as a roof.

1292
01:13:51,320 --> 01:13:54,000
We're not doing that because if
it's treated as a roof, then the

1293
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,560
provisions are quite clear.
We would apply AS 3500.

1294
01:13:57,560 --> 01:14:00,400
I think it's Part 3 and.
A lot of how you guys can just

1295
01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:04,640
rattle off standards.
Yeah, it's yeah.

1296
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,000
And and then in terms of the
pitch, in terms of the water

1297
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,400
collection, the size of the
downpipes, everything is

1298
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,920
covered.
But in this, in this case as a

1299
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:16,120
balcony is an all man's land.
So you kind of can do whatever

1300
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,960
you want.
So doing forensic work is, is

1301
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:21,240
really interesting in that
sense.

1302
01:14:21,760 --> 01:14:24,400
And, and we look at a variety of
the different issues.

1303
01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:26,600
Does climate change come into
it?

1304
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,840
Not, not very immediately in
the, in, in the time periods

1305
01:14:30,840 --> 01:14:36,320
that I'm looking at.
I, I was looking for example, at

1306
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:40,600
Brisbane's climate data and
looking at for example, the

1307
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:42,400
heating degree days and the
cooling degree days.

1308
01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:47,520
And there looks like there is a
bit of a trend there, not enough

1309
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:49,120
for me to to be conclusive about
it.

1310
01:14:50,120 --> 01:14:55,800
But the trend that it has would
tell me that what we have in the

1311
01:14:55,840 --> 01:14:59,240
weather files that we're using
for the simulation was out of

1312
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:02,240
date from the start and it is
more and more out of date over

1313
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:04,120
the years, so.
Simulations.

1314
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:06,080
You mean that hers will see?
Exactly.

1315
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:07,760
Yes.
So, so, so, so the energy

1316
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:12,400
simulations are, are, are, are
are incorrect and they will be

1317
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:17,720
increasingly incorrect.
I don't think we are actually

1318
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,520
dealing with these things with,
with, with, with any degree of,

1319
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,920
of awareness or intelligence.
So we're going to be picking up

1320
01:15:24,920 --> 01:15:26,560
these pieces for, for a very
long time.

1321
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:32,040
Yeah.
I think the Wolfie file, the

1322
01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:35,080
Wolfie weather files with Wolfie
7.1, there's a whole new bunch

1323
01:15:35,080 --> 01:15:36,840
of weather files that have been
released and I think they've

1324
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:41,760
included some updated rain data.
Do you think that that closes

1325
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:46,040
the gap a little bit?
Yeah, what perturbed me slightly

1326
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:49,320
was that in NCC 2019 there was a
verification method using

1327
01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:53,360
hydrothermal analysis that
required with data and rain

1328
01:15:53,360 --> 01:15:55,720
data.
Woofie at the time didn't have

1329
01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:00,760
it.
So it's up to anybody to create

1330
01:16:00,760 --> 01:16:02,320
a weatherfall and do the
simulation.

1331
01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:03,760
You would have no idea of
tracking it.

1332
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,640
It's not like Nethurst where the
files are provided and locked.

1333
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:08,120
You can't change the weather
files.

1334
01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:11,000
That's the way it has to be.
We were allowing verification

1335
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:14,520
methods without having other
inputs.

1336
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,120
We had no weather inputs, we had
no material inputs.

1337
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,200
So what are we simulating?
So the verification method for

1338
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:24,520
the longest time and I think
even up to now still can be

1339
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,560
hugely manipulated and the
building surveyor who is going

1340
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,000
to approve that, it's not going
to be any wiser.

1341
01:16:30,280 --> 01:16:32,480
No, they won't know.
And that's the thing, isn't it?

1342
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:35,320
Even even with energy efficiency
assessments, the surveyor

1343
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:38,640
mentioned the surveyor before
when we're talking about BBA and

1344
01:16:38,640 --> 01:16:42,800
the BPC and the building
surveyor being the one who holds

1345
01:16:42,800 --> 01:16:47,160
the ultimate say.
But the building surveyor has to

1346
01:16:47,160 --> 01:16:49,960
know everything in order to have
the ultimate say.

1347
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:51,680
And they simply can't know
everything.

1348
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,360
And you know, I remember with
our energy efficiency

1349
01:16:54,360 --> 01:16:57,360
assessments, it was well
understood that once the the

1350
01:16:57,360 --> 01:16:59,520
surveyor received their report,
they didn't necessarily

1351
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:01,880
understand how to read it.
They would just look at the, the

1352
01:17:01,880 --> 01:17:04,240
company who provided it and go,
Oh yeah, I trust them.

1353
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:07,600
And that was that.
So.

1354
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:10,240
Yeah, We currently don't have
anything similar for

1355
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:13,480
hydrothermal simulation.
We don't have an accredited

1356
01:17:13,480 --> 01:17:15,560
course.
We don't have people who are

1357
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:19,560
licensed to to run it.
And at the end of the day, if

1358
01:17:19,560 --> 01:17:23,000
you get a board index less than
three, yeah, who knows?

1359
01:17:23,200 --> 01:17:25,520
It's like.
It's it's very dependent on

1360
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:30,200
rubbish in, rubbish out,
interpretation and workmanship

1361
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:32,160
as well.
So there are lots of variables.

1362
01:17:32,160 --> 01:17:35,120
It's a risk assessment only, and
it can only ever be seen as a

1363
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:39,680
risk assessment in based on
exactly what goes into the into

1364
01:17:39,680 --> 01:17:41,520
the software.
So, yeah.

1365
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:46,080
And with regards to the rain
data, I, I tried working rain

1366
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:49,160
data and and it is not quite as
straightforward as it sounds.

1367
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:55,080
So the 07SJ160 requires the
simulation to assume that 1% of

1368
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:58,360
the water that hits the wall
which is the water resistant

1369
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:03,640
barrier.
If you now how do we create all

1370
01:18:03,640 --> 01:18:07,840
this or we call RMI reference
meteorological years, we look at

1371
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:14,640
averages, we look at the average
January over, let's say I've got

1372
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:17,200
20 years of record.
The average January might be

1373
01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:21,800
last year, the average February
might be 1990, average March

1374
01:18:21,800 --> 01:18:25,400
could be in 2010, for example.
And then you try to link them

1375
01:18:25,400 --> 01:18:27,800
all together.
What happens if your average

1376
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:34,880
month has had a flood event?
You get something like a cyclone

1377
01:18:34,880 --> 01:18:37,920
going through I, I don't know
whatever, but you have, let's

1378
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:41,720
say for argument's sake, 2
meters of water in one week.

1379
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:47,400
Do you assume that 1% of that
reaches your water resistant

1380
01:18:47,400 --> 01:18:49,920
barrier?
Because once you do that, you

1381
01:18:49,920 --> 01:18:51,600
can forget about hydrothermal
simulation.

1382
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:56,120
Everything is more index 3.
Or, you know, yeah.

1383
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:57,360
Or more.
Yeah.

1384
01:18:57,560 --> 01:19:04,080
So we, we, we don't have a test
method to define how much is

1385
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:07,320
that film thickness.
It is a vertical surface.

1386
01:19:07,360 --> 01:19:09,400
Obviously some water is going to
be running off.

1387
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:11,240
You cannot assume it keeps
accumulating there.

1388
01:19:11,600 --> 01:19:12,800
But we don't have a test
standard.

1389
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:15,320
We don't, we don't have a test
standard.

1390
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,840
We can forget about having any
inputs upon what that film

1391
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,040
thickness is.
So look here.

1392
01:19:21,320 --> 01:19:24,120
You mean the the film thickness?
As in where that 1% of water

1393
01:19:24,120 --> 01:19:26,720
lies?
Is that where, where, where it's

1394
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:29,000
accumulating?
So what he's talking about is in

1395
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,160
a Wolfy assessment, a hybrid
thermal assessment.

1396
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:34,040
When we build up the it's a 2D
assessment or we build up, we

1397
01:19:34,040 --> 01:19:35,800
build up the wall layers in the
software.

1398
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:40,920
And then we the software allows
us to put 1% of driving rain

1399
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:45,440
into the very outside the layer
of material inside the weather

1400
01:19:45,440 --> 01:19:48,280
resisted barrier.
And that in order to that, that

1401
01:19:48,280 --> 01:19:52,480
that is put there in order to
wet the materials and see if

1402
01:19:52,480 --> 01:19:54,880
they dry, basically it's like
throwing water at it.

1403
01:19:54,960 --> 01:19:57,240
What happens?
Does it go moldy or does it dry

1404
01:19:57,240 --> 01:19:59,440
out?
So that's, that's what that's

1405
01:19:59,440 --> 01:20:03,880
what Tim's talking about now.
And yeah, I mean, there is no

1406
01:20:03,880 --> 01:20:06,600
catch all assessment.
We can't assess for cyclones or

1407
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:08,560
floods or we we just have to
assess for, as you say,

1408
01:20:08,560 --> 01:20:10,080
averages.
That's all we can do.

1409
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,760
Yeah, but averages are
temperature averages, not

1410
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:15,200
rainfall averages.
OK.

1411
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:17,680
Yeah.
So if you pick a year for your

1412
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:20,560
temporary average that had a
rainfall extreme.

1413
01:20:21,320 --> 01:20:23,760
I see what you're saying.
So it's actually recorded data.

1414
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,120
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
That's right.

1415
01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:29,280
Because because we are, we are
working off an energy simulation

1416
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,160
climate foul and adding to that
another column for rain.

1417
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:37,640
Yeah, but we have not actually
checked whether that is a proper

1418
01:20:37,640 --> 01:20:41,400
average.
OK, just working with what we've

1419
01:20:41,400 --> 01:20:48,120
got I guess.
It's yeah, it's Yep, Yep.

1420
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:50,760
So the weather files in Europe
for example, we've got our own

1421
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:54,840
Australian weather files.
Wolfie has been used for longer

1422
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:56,680
in Germany.
Would you say than we've used it

1423
01:20:56,680 --> 01:20:59,600
here?
Well, it's it was written by

1424
01:20:59,600 --> 01:21:00,680
Germans.
Yeah, Yeah.

1425
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:02,520
It started there, right?
Yeah.

1426
01:21:02,520 --> 01:21:05,800
So we've started using it here
in the last, only the last five

1427
01:21:05,800 --> 01:21:10,200
years or so for four years.
Less than what?

1428
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:13,920
In terms of building code,
simulations and compliance,

1429
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,400
Would you say that the weather
files in Europe are more usable

1430
01:21:18,680 --> 01:21:20,720
because they've had longer to to
develop them?

1431
01:21:23,240 --> 01:21:24,520
Well, you don't know, or you're
not.

1432
01:21:24,520 --> 01:21:29,480
Yeah, the the tendency is that
if you have used weather files

1433
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:35,120
for a long time, any anomalous
trends would show up.

1434
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,840
So with a new data set, you've
got to give it time and for

1435
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:40,640
people to be familiar with it.
Yeah.

1436
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:43,720
Like for the case I was looking
at, the climate, the net has

1437
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:49,200
climate files for Brisbane.
I was only aware of it because

1438
01:21:49,760 --> 01:21:53,240
people from there were telling
me that they don't like the

1439
01:21:53,240 --> 01:21:58,720
simulation because it tends to
require a lot more insulation

1440
01:21:58,720 --> 01:22:01,320
that they think they need.
And when I looked at it, I found

1441
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:02,720
that that was true.
Is this?

1442
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:04,840
The star ratings.
For for the net has star

1443
01:22:04,840 --> 01:22:08,840
ratings.
Yeah, yeah, that the weather

1444
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:14,160
file in the climate fall was for
a much cooler climate than it

1445
01:22:14,160 --> 01:22:18,360
was for Brisbane because the
climate zone was quite big for

1446
01:22:18,360 --> 01:22:20,520
that and and it went went
through different areas.

1447
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:26,560
So yes, if if weather falls have
got problems, we don't see it

1448
01:22:26,640 --> 01:22:28,440
too much.
Later another case was said,

1449
01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:30,480
most looking at something in
Tasmania only because I could

1450
01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:33,000
compare against another forensic
case I was doing.

1451
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:37,400
I found that there was perfect
symmetry on the east and West

1452
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:43,000
side, and when I looked at it,
it was a sine wave that was

1453
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:46,000
flipped around.
So you basically have got East

1454
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:48,280
and West having exactly the same
kind of solar patterns A.

1455
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:50,200
Sine.
Wave.

1456
01:22:50,320 --> 01:22:54,880
I assume that, Yeah.
You know, when you get the, the,

1457
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:59,080
the, the, the, the, the, the,
the sine angles, the amount of

1458
01:22:59,440 --> 01:23:01,440
Yeah.
As as as the sun moves around,

1459
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:07,600
the amount of radiation you get
is no, as a cosine rule based on

1460
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:12,560
the angle of the sun.
So what was done was that the

1461
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:17,400
the radiation was synthesized.
It wasn't recorded.

1462
01:23:18,320 --> 01:23:20,640
And that's why I had perfect
symmetry across the east and

1463
01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:22,280
West side.
Yeah.

1464
01:23:22,280 --> 01:23:23,560
Right.
Yeah.

1465
01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:24,480
It doesn't make sense.
Yeah.

1466
01:23:24,480 --> 01:23:26,560
Because the hydrothermal
simulation gave me exactly the

1467
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:28,800
same result for east and West.
I thought something was wrong.

1468
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:29,920
Yeah.
Yeah.

1469
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:31,040
So.
All right.

1470
01:23:31,040 --> 01:23:36,000
So the system is flawed.
Yeah, I mean, I've, I've tried

1471
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:40,960
to work as much as I can with
hydrothermal simulation, but I I

1472
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:43,360
think it's not ready yet.
I actually think it's not ready,

1473
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,240
yeah.
OK.

1474
01:23:46,600 --> 01:23:51,440
So what's giving you hope?
What's giving you hope?

1475
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:53,360
What's what's new?
Is there any technology or or

1476
01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:55,400
anything emerging that you can
say that's making you think,

1477
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:58,880
yes, we're going to get there?
Oh, I, I, I'm.

1478
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:03,400
I'm thankful that there are
enough pathological optimist

1479
01:24:03,400 --> 01:24:08,520
around whether that's a nice
term, but but I mean, people

1480
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:12,040
like you give me hope.
Just I mean, it's like you, you

1481
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:14,960
swim against a tight you.
You never think anything is too

1482
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:16,840
hard to you think that we need a
podcast.

1483
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:18,000
I'm doing it.
You know it's.

1484
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:25,800
Like happened.
It's like, it's like, yeah, that

1485
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:28,960
that, yeah, it's, it's, it's,
it's things like that that give

1486
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:33,200
me hope that that not everybody
is sitting back and watching the

1487
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:36,160
world implode.
Not everybody is trying to to

1488
01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:39,720
just do a bad job and, and, and
run away from it.

1489
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:44,720
Yeah, I think there is, there is
a certain Dr. amongst

1490
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:51,480
Australians that, that, that
doing the right thing is good

1491
01:24:51,480 --> 01:24:53,840
enough.
And I think there, I mean, it's

1492
01:24:53,840 --> 01:24:56,480
not everyone that's that way,
but there's enough around for me

1493
01:24:56,480 --> 01:25:00,640
to think that, yeah, it's, it's
shouldn't give up hope yet There

1494
01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:04,360
are people who are interested.
And, and the other thing that I

1495
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:07,800
find really interesting is that
it's a bit like, you know, how

1496
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:11,080
fireflies, they only put out
their light when it's dark

1497
01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:13,000
enough and that's how they find
each other.

1498
01:25:13,400 --> 01:25:16,840
It's only when things really get
bad that we start noticing that,

1499
01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:20,080
hey, I can find my tribe amongst
these other people who are

1500
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,200
actually getting more public
because they're just as annoyed

1501
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:27,080
as I am about, about matters.
So yes, I, I, I used to be a

1502
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:28,480
pacifist.
I try not to get into an

1503
01:25:28,480 --> 01:25:30,920
argument, but but hey, those
days are over.

1504
01:25:30,920 --> 01:25:32,600
I, I, I, I've turned off the
gloves.

1505
01:25:32,600 --> 01:25:35,640
I, I get into a fight now I get
dirty because I just think

1506
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:37,440
that's just, that's too much
nonsense around it.

1507
01:25:37,480 --> 01:25:39,880
You just got to call it out.
Yeah, good on you.

1508
01:25:39,880 --> 01:25:42,200
And there's so many of us.
I mean, I, you, you work in the

1509
01:25:42,200 --> 01:25:45,480
restoration space, so maybe it's
a little bit harder for you to

1510
01:25:45,480 --> 01:25:48,080
feel positive.
But I work in the, I work in

1511
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,280
this space that we're designing
solutions.

1512
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:51,880
We're not, we're not, we're not
fixing problems.

1513
01:25:52,280 --> 01:25:54,040
So we're trying to prevent
problems.

1514
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:56,640
And there are so many of us all
beating the same drum.

1515
01:25:57,200 --> 01:25:59,680
And yeah, those people give me
hope too.

1516
01:25:59,720 --> 01:26:02,680
And I'm so pleased to be one of
them and part of it so.

1517
01:26:03,760 --> 01:26:05,280
That is so awesome, Jess.
Yeah.

1518
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,840
Cool.
Last question I asked this of

1519
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,840
all of my guests on this
podcast, what is the one thing

1520
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:13,720
out of everything that you've
learned in your career that you

1521
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,000
want the listener to know if you
could choose one thing?

1522
01:26:23,080 --> 01:26:26,480
In all my career I've always
loved science and I probably

1523
01:26:26,480 --> 01:26:29,480
would send this message to those
who feel that science is a very

1524
01:26:29,480 --> 01:26:35,400
unlucky thing.
It's that at you just haven't

1525
01:26:35,400 --> 01:26:37,720
met the right teacher yet.
Don't give up on it.

1526
01:26:37,720 --> 01:26:41,240
Yeah.
Yeah, I love that.

1527
01:26:41,720 --> 01:26:42,680
That's good.
That's good.

1528
01:26:42,720 --> 01:26:45,240
That's good.
Thank you so much, Tim.

1529
01:26:45,240 --> 01:26:49,080
This has been a really fabulous,
interesting and educational and

1530
01:26:49,080 --> 01:26:51,440
really enjoyable conversation.
I really appreciate you coming

1531
01:26:51,440 --> 01:26:53,120
on.
Thanks Jazz, I had a lot of fun

1532
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,920
too.
Thanks so much.

1533
01:26:56,280 --> 01:26:58,120
No worries.
OK, then take.

1534
01:26:58,120 --> 01:27:02,000
Care goodbye.
That is all for today.

1535
01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:05,120
Thanks so much for tuning in.
There will be another episode on

1536
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,640
a fortnight, so if you would
like to listen into the types of

1537
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:10,560
conversations that I have all
the time, please subscribe on

1538
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,440
your chosen platform.
Write the show, leave a comment,

1539
01:27:13,440 --> 01:27:15,520
whatever you like, share with
your friends and family.

1540
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:18,400
I'd love for you to spread the
word about the building serology

1541
01:27:18,400 --> 01:27:20,600
potty.
There's a link in the episode

1542
01:27:20,600 --> 01:27:23,360
description where you can head
to a landing page and there are

1543
01:27:23,360 --> 01:27:25,880
some show notes there with
relevant links and a full

1544
01:27:25,880 --> 01:27:29,240
transcript of the show as well,
and also links to my socials.

1545
01:27:29,480 --> 01:27:31,760
So if you're not already, I'd
love for you to follow along

1546
01:27:31,760 --> 01:27:34,320
there too as I share lots of
building science and building

1547
01:27:34,320 --> 01:27:36,360
biology tips.
Thanks again.

1548
01:27:36,400 --> 01:27:39,360
I'll be back in two weeks, so
until then, happy healthy

1549
01:27:39,360 --> 01:27:39,720
building.